DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 13thAugust, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[THE DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

QUESTIONS

SUBSIDSING FERTILISER

296. Mr I Banda (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives whether the Government had any deliberate plans to subsidise fertilisers sold to peasant farmers in the country in order to increase the number of beneficiaries and avoid the conditions attached to the Fertiliser Support Programme which disadvantage peasant farmers.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, the Government is committed to improving the livelihood of the small-scale farmers, especially the disadvantaged small-scale farmers in remote areas. It should be noted that the Government has two deliberate programmes which target small scale farmers belonging to different categories. The Fertiliser Support Programme provides subsidised agricultural inputs to small-scale farmers cultivating between one and five hectares of land, whilst the Food Security Pack Programme gives inputs on favourable loan terms to vulnerable, but viable small-scale peasant farmers mainly cultivating less than a hectare.

Under the Food Security Pack, repayments are made by farmers in kind, using a crop harvested from the loaned inputs. All in all, a targeted number of peasant farmers in Zambia get production assistance from the Food Security Pack Programme. Small scale farmers with a capacity to cultivate more than one hector and that meet the set conditions, get assistance from the Fertiliser Support Programme. It should also be noted, that the resource envelope is limited, hence not all farmers can be assisted at the same time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr I. Banda: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether he realises that before a peasant farmer gets the farm inputs, he is required to meet conditions such as the following:

(a)  joining a co-operative or a farming club;

(b) subscribe a fee charged by the committee in charge of these groups, which many of these peasant farmers fail to pay; and

(c) sometimes, when the fertilisers get to a station where they are supposed to share the inputs, they are charged heavy transport fees.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the Fertiliser Support Programme, as a condition, only supports farmers who belong to co-operatives. The fertiliser is not given on individual basis. Farmers who belong to co-operatives have to pay membership subscription. I think that condition was set by the co-operative societies themselves.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether despite the soaring prices of …

There was a piercing noise arising from interference on the electronic system.

Madam Deputy Speaker: There is somebody with a mobile phone. Can we have that given to one of our men here?

Hon. Member: And the women.

Hon. MMD Member: Kambwili!

Mr Kambwili: Put a sock in it.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! It is understood on these phones that it does not matter whether it is off or on, we are simply supposed to leave them out. We heard the phone ring at a very wrong time. In fact, there is no right time in the Chamber for the phone to ring. You can get this interference on our system if the phone rings.

Mrs Imbwae: I was asking if the hon. Minister has considered organic farming as an alternative since we have been seeing that prices for synthetic fertilisers have been going up for a long time. Additionally, even when farmers are given conditions such as the ones the hon. Member has mentioned, many of our small-scale farmers do not have access. Has the Ministry considered organic farming as an alternative?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the Government is considering organic farming as an alternative.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, with the price of fertiliser at K220,000 per 50kg bag, would the hon. Minister accept that no peasant or small-scale farmer who is not on the Fertiliser Support Programme will be able to grow any maize this coming season? Would she also consider that even the commercial farmers will not be able to grow the required amounts of maize unless the price of maize is substantially increased in line with the increase in the price of fertiliser?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the soaring prices of fertiliser are occurring worldwide because developing countries are mopping up fertiliser for bio-fuels and that has made the price of fertiliser go up. However, as the Government, we are putting in all efforts which I do not want to pre-empt as we will be coming to the House to give a ministerial statement on how we are trying to increase the number of beneficiaries from 125,000 to about 200,000 farmers and also increase the subsidy so that many farmers can improve on production.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, bearing in mind the sad history of Namboard in this country, is the hon. Minister not frightened that by constantly increasing the subsidy, we are now talking about 75 per cent subsidy on a bag of fertiliser, costing K220,000 which, from experience, we know leads to commercial farmers or apamwamba farmers or the Malawians getting all the fertiliser? Is he not worried that he does not actually have a policy of preventing the trap that we were in before?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, I do not want to pre-empt the ministerial statement, but assure the House that during the course of next week, my Ministry will bring a ministerial statement which will outline the measures taken by the Government to cushion the price of fertiliser.

I thank you, Madam.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, the source of fertiliser is the grain bin in front of the house for the peasant farmer. They sell maize in order to buy fertiliser for the next season. Given that there was a 70 per cent crop failure, going by the Government statistics, is the hon. Minister considering distributing free fertiliser this season to alleviate the suffering of the people who have been affected by an act of God, the floods.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Ms Sayifwanda): Madam Speaker, I would like to say that the Government is not going to give free fertiliser to areas which were affected by the floods this season. This is because one of the hon. Members of Parliament has already mentioned that the Government has further subsidised fertiliser. I think that is one way we are working around the clock to ensure that our people can afford this fertiliser. On the other hand, let me also refute the 70 per cent that has been mentioned. This is an exaggeration! My Ministry will next week bring a ministerial statement that will respond to all these concerns from the hon. Members Parliament.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, although fertiliser is very expensive, it is cardinal in food production. When will the Ministry deliver fertiliser to designated depots in all provinces in the country?

Ms Sayifwanda: Madam Speaker, if we want to see real production in this nation, farmers should have farming inputs on time. I have been on radio several times, informing people that fertiliser for this season will be distributed on time.

Madam Speaker, this is one of the issues that will be discussed in the ministerial statement. My Ministry has already put everything in place and I am assuring this House that there will be a change in the distribution method this year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives very clearly and I hope that these questions will help her build a ministerial statement that will be acceptable to the country. I speak for Pemba and this year, we are expecting …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Ask your supplementary question.

Mr Matongo: … relief food to arrive in Pemba. and if the fertiliser price will not be reduced, she will have to find more relief food next year. I would like to have a confirmation to that effect.

Ms Sayifwanda: Madam Speaker, that question was not clear. Maybe, the hon. Member can repeat the question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma): Madam Speaker, with regard to corruption and vandalism, what measures has the Government put in place to ensure that this fertiliser is delivered to the farmers for whom its intended.

Ms Sayifwanda: Madam Speaker, vandalism and corruption are a concern to all Zambians. It is not only for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. It is a concern for all Zambians, especially hon. Members of Parliament because they are representatives of the people. It is cardinal that, as Zambians, we put in place measures that will ensure that our small-scale farmers benefit from this programme.

Madam Speaker, let me also mention that the fertiliser will be distributed by my officials and I have already instructed them to be on the ground. Whoever who will receive fertiliser has to ensure that he or she uses it. We are aware that some people have been selling fertiliser after receiving it, but this year, I can assure you that the law will take its course if anyone will be found selling fertiliser.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, I would like to state that the Government is spending huge sums of money on providing relief food to a large number of people. Does the Government not consider it prudent that the people who are receiving relief food should also be considered for the Fertiliser Support Programme? If they do not do that, even next year, this Government will still spend huge sums of money on providing relief food.

Ms Sayifwanda: Madam Speaker, maybe I have …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Continue, hon. Minister.

Ms Sayifwanda: I thank you, Madam Speaker. I believe that the relief food is supplied to needy societies. That is how we give the relief food, but when it comes to the distribution of the fertiliser, the Government has already done its best by subsidising it. Therefore, I see no reason for giving free farming inputs to the people because we want to enhance production in this nation.

I thank you, Madam.

WOMEN EMPOWERMENT POLICY

297. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Lands how many women countrywide had benefited from the Women Empowerment Policy through the acquisition of land.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Hamir): Madam Speaker, currently, our Land Information Management System (LIMS) is unable to segregate data in terms of gender. It is, therefore, difficult to provide the statistics of how many women have been allocated land countrywide under the Women Empowerment Programme. The Ministry is, however, cognisant of the Gender Policy of allocating 30 per cent of whatever land is available to women, leaving the remaining 70 per cent to be competed for by both men and women.

In order to solve the problem of data segregation, the Ministry is working hard to overhaul the LIMS with the assistance of the Millennium Challenge Account (MCA).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, there is too much loud consultation.

Ms Limata: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out if women in the rural areas are part and parcel of this Women Empowerment Policy.

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, yes, women in the rural areas are part and parcel of the empowerment programme in the rural areas. We face certain challenges in that a lot of land in the rural areas is held on customary tenure. There is a process that we need to go through to obtain that land from the traditional leaders, make it State land and, in turn, make it available to applicants from respective areas to obtain title.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, when is the Ministry going to avail us with the information of how many women have benefited from this Policy because for them to be able to allocate that 30 per cent to women, they must have some data of some kind. It is very important that we have this information.

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, in fact, that question has been addressed before this House already under Questions for Oral Answer. We have previously brought to this House some responses that have stipulated what has been done. In particular, I recall providing information on what has been done in Kitwe, Kabwe and maybe one other town.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

WORLD BANK CONSTRUCTED CLASSROOM BLOCKS IN ROAN PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

298. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Education when the Government would renovate the World Bank constructed classroom blocks at the following schools in Roan Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Roan Antelope High School;

(ii) Mpatamatu High School; and

(iii) Luanshya Girls’ High School.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, the Ministry will consider the rehabilitation of Roan Antelope, Mpatamatu and Luanshya Girls’ High Schools in the 2009 Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Ministry has carried out an assessment of the conditions in which these World Bank constructed classroom blocks are in Roan Parliamentary Constituency. Do you not see that you are putting the lives of our children at risk by not maintaining these classrooms that are in a dilapidated state?

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, assessment of the state of our buildings in schools is a continuous process. That is why we have Buildings Department officers on the ground in the districts, who carry out that work. Clearly, we are aware of the state of most of our buildings. In cases where the buildings are threatening to the lives of our children, we take measures to ensure that there is no danger to our children.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

FERTILISER SUPPORT PROGRAMME

299. Mrs Musokotwane asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how many women benefited from the Fertiliser Support Programme from 2003 to 2008, year by year; and

(b) whether the Government had plans to increase the amount of fertilisers it allocated to the Fertiliser Support Programme due to the recent floods which destroyed farmers’ crops.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, during the implementation of the Fertiliser Support Programme, it has endeavoured to increase the number of women beneficiaries and the following have benefited:

Year No. of Women Farmer Beneficiaries

2002/2006 36,791

2003/204 49,076

2004/2005 38,887

2005/2006 47,389

2006/2007 73,470

2007/2008 Data is still being compiled.

Madam Speaker, the Fertiliser Support Programme has been created partly to counteract the effects of natural disasters such as floods and droughts. The Government recognises the effects of the floods that have destroyed crops in several parts of the country in the 2007/2008 farming season. It is realigning itself to finding suitable solutions of increasing input delivery to even the affected parts. One of the mitigation measures is to source and allocate more funds to the Fertiliser Support Programme to enable the programme procure more agricultural inputs for the 2008/2009 season.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Really, the House seems to have a lot of other businesses. It has become so difficult for the Chair to really follow with concentration. Can the hon. Members who have issues of loud consultations do it outside, otherwise, consult quietly.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that when you subsidise fertiliser, you are assuming that there is some capacity in the small-scale peasant farmer to bridge the gap between the subsidy and the reality. Where do you think that bridge is going to come from, given that there is absolutely no money that a small-scale farmer is going to have due to lack of a good maize harvest?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member should be aware that we are doing everything possible, as a Government, but we have to consider the available resources. That is why I have indicated that the Government is making all efforts to bring a Supplementary Budget so that we, at least, increase the number of beneficiaries. That is why the Government has also increased the subject 60 per cent to 75 per cent to enable many farmers access this fertiliser.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, the Fertiliser Support Programme helps the vulnerable people. Would the hon. Minister indicate what similar programme she intends to put in place for places such as my constituency where many more people grow rice rather than maize and there is absolutely no support from the Government?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the Government is already doing that. We have allowed them to use 60 per cent of the fertiliser to the farmers who grow rice and 40 per cent for maize. That programme is already in place.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, bearing in mind that Mazabuka is one of the many areas that was devastated by the floods experienced in the last rainy season, and considering the fact that one of the principles of FSP is to wean off farmers once they have benefited from the programme after a period of time, where does this leave the programme of weaning farmers, considering that the devastation levels were too grave because of the abnormal rainfall pattern we had? Will the Ministry start afresh or does it have a method for determining which farmers can still be on the weaning programme?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the point brought out by the hon. Member is worth noting. Since it is a policy issue, we will look into that matter and see how we can get round it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, other countries also give commercial farmers some sort of subsidy. For instance, in England, for every hectare developed, a farmer is given 70 Pounds. What plans does the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives have for the commercial farmers here in Zambia?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, every country is unique and differs in terms of resources. The Fertiliser Support Programme is suited for this country. We cannot borrow foreign policies, but develop our own which will suit our situation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister informed the House that there has been an increase in the level of subsidy on FSP. That is also in line with the statement that was issued by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when he toured the Eastern Province at the opening of a Finance Bank branch in the Province. Indeed, the amount is large.

Madam Speaker, at the time we were debating the Budget, the Government informed us that they did not have enough money to extend to a large number of small-scale farmers. Without any supplementary budget, the Government has raised money to more than double the subsidy. Can the hon. Minister explain to the House and to the nation where this windfall has come from, for them to more than double the allocation to FSP all of a sudden and in the middle of the year?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, as a Government, we have to look at our priorities in the allocation of resources. I mentioned in my response to the first question that we need to be given time because we will come back to this House with a ministerial statement in which we will indicate the measures we have taken, as a Government, to mitigate the problem. This is why I could not pre-empt the statement because we have come to this House for a Supplementary Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker:

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I think that I should be very categorical in asking this question.

Madam Speaker, the ministerial statement, in itself, is not an answer to the fact that the fertiliser which is pegged between K210,000 and K250,000 is too expensive for the peasant farmers, who grow 60 per cent of maize, which is our staple food.

Secondly, I put it to you that we had floods and droughts over the last two years. Do the hon. Ministers of Agriculture and Co-operatives, which is a double barrelled Ministry, comprising two hon. Ministers, two Deputy Ministers and two Permanent secretaries realise that, in fact, if they do not reduce the price of fertiliser now and the price of maize per 50 kg or 90 kg bag for next year, there shall be hunger and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will have to beg for food? Do they understand that?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, we do understand that fact and that is why we are doing everything possible to mitigate the problem. We are looking at our resources and re-aligning ourselves so that we can increase the supplementary budget and, in turn, increase the number of beneficiaries and subsidise the fertiliser from 60 per cent to 75 per cent.

I thank you. Madam Speaker.

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Madam Speaker, last year, the hon. Minister promised that there would be a scheme for wetlands in places such as the Western Province. I heard the hon. Deputy Minister saying that the Scheme already exists. When will this programme reach places such as Liuwa? I am just coming from the constituency and the programme is not there yet. When will the scheme for seeds and fertiliser for wetlands be made available to the Western Province?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, when the hon. Member goes to the constituency, he should work with the District Agricultural Co-ordinator. The programme is in place. It may not be a scheme, but it is already in place. The people entitled to FSP can use 60 per cent on rice growing and 40 per cent on maize growing. It is their option because, as a Government, we are flexible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

CAMPAIGN FOR CHAIRPERSON OF AFRICAN UNION COMMISSION

300. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Vice-President:

(a) how much money was spent on the election campaign for Ambassador Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika’s contest for the position of Chairperson of the African Union Commission;

(b) who were in the campaign team for the AU position at (a) above; and

(c) what reasons were advanced by the campaign team for failure to win the election for the position at (a) above.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Malwa): Madam Speaker, a total of K 1,096,316,382.42 was spent on the election campaign for Ambassador Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika’s contest for the position of Chairperson of the African Union Commission.

Madam Speaker, the names listed below formed the campaign team for the African Union (AU) position referred to in (a) above:

Chairman of the Campaign

His Honour, the Vice-President, Mr Rupiah Banda.

The other members were as follows:

Ministers

Hon. Mundia F. Sikatana, then Minister of Foreign Affairs 
Hon. Mike Mulongoti, Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services 
Hon. Gladys Lundwe, MP, then Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President

Permanent Secretaries

Ambassador Tens C Kapoma, Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Foreign Affairs;
Mr Emmanuel Ngulube, Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Finance and National Planning;
Dr Austin C. J. Sichinga, Permanent Secretary, Office of the Vice-President; 
Mrs Mavis L Muyunda, Special Assistant to the President, Political Affairs, State House;
Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika, Ambassador to the United States of America;
Ambassador Simata Akapelwa, Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, (rtd);
Mr Frank L. Moyo, civil servant, (rtd); and
Ms Dras Mara Sanana Neves, legal practitioner, Law Association of Zambia.

Directors

Mr Kimbala L. Meleka, Acting Director, Political Affairs, Ministry of Foreign Affairs;
Mr L. E. Kawila, Director, Human Resource and Administration, Office of the Vice-President; and
Mr F. Mumba, Senior Private Secretary, Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that no reasons were given by our campaign team other than that our candidate lost because in every election, there must be a winner and a loser.

Madam Speaker, there were three final candidates from the original six candidates.

Mr Kambwili: Questions!

Mr Malwa: Madam Speaker, the results were as follows:

Candidates Country No. of Votes
 
 Zambia 12

Gabon 31
 
Sierra Leone 2

One ballot paper was spoiled.

Madam Speaker, therefore, Jean Ping, a Gabonese won the election and she is the current Chairperson of the African Union Commission.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, after wasting K1 billion and no reasons were given for failing to achieve what we wanted, I would like to find out what measures the Government has put in place to ensure that we will not have a recurrence should another position falls vacant that we want to vie for. What measures has the Government put in place to prevent the wastage of money?

Mr Malwa: Madam Speaker, money was not lost as you put it. It was a pre-requisite of the African Union that when there is a vacancy, the countries involved should vie for it. It was unfortunate that we lost. However, next time, we will prepare ourselves adequately so that we win the elections.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, no reasons were given for the loss, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether this means that the Government did not undertake any post-mortem analysis of the campaign we undertook to ascertain the reasons we did not win. If this is the case, why was no such post-mortem done and if it was done thoroughly, why were no reasons found so that next time, we can be in a better position to know how to go about such an endeavour?

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, the circumstances under which we lost have since been unravelled.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, there is a tendency among West African countries to come together. You can see that this has even gone into the football circles. You would find that they would gang up and are more in terms of numbers.

Madam Speaker, from our other investigations, we found that some friends from the Southern African Development Community (SADC) were not sincere though they had indicated that they would vote for us. As you know, through the secret ballot, you cannot determine who did what, but we have since learnt a very bitter lesson. Next time, we will be in a position to contain the situation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, Question (c) solicited reasons provided for the failure to win the position. In response, the hon. Deputy Minister said that there were no reasons given. Now, the Acting Leader of Government Business in this House has chosen to state that there were reasons. Yet, his hon. Deputy Minister said that there were no reasons. Is this not a serious breach of parliamentary etiquette? Secondly, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Lubinda, you did not ask for a point of order. You were to ask a supplementary question. Therefore, your question is also unprocedural. Could you ask a supplementary question?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister indicate whether the reasons for the re-calling of the then Ambassador to Libya Hon. Mbita Chitala on the statement issued to do with the African Union Government had any influence on the out come of the results as was claimed at the time.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, it is important to state that we have to use the past in order to build the future. The loss is water under the bridge now. What we, as a Government, have found out is that we need to put measures in place because we have learnt a lot of lessons from the campaign situation. All of us here go through campaign issues. Therefore, there is nothing flamboyant about the election results.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, regarding the re-calling of Ambassador Hon. Chitala, the appointing authority made his position abundantly clear when he was relieving him of that position. Therefore, it will not do any good for me to go through issues that have been properly explained by the appointing authority.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MEMEMBERS OF THE MULUNGUSHI UNIVERSITY COUNCIL

301. Mr Kakusa (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Education who the members of the Mulungushi University Council were.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform this House that the following are the members of the Mulungushi University Council:

(a) Mr Costain Chilala, farmer, representative of Trade Commerce and Professions, member - Chairperson;

(b) Ms Irene Muyenga, Managing Director, Zambia State Insurance Corporation, representative of Trade, Commerce and Professions, member – Vice-Chairperson;

(c) Professor Vernon R. N. Chinene, Vice-Chancellor, Ex-officio, member;

(d) Dr. Ernest Muketoi Beele, Deputy Vice-Chancellor, Ex-officio, member;

(e) Mrs Florence C. Mfula, Registrar, Ex-officio, member
Ms Vivian Chiwila Chikoti, Town Clerk, representative of Kabwe Municipal Council, member

(f) Professor Mutale Musonda, Vice-Chancellor, Copperbelt University, Representative of Universities within the Republic, member;

(g) Dr. Mwilola Imakando, Executive Director Livestock Development Trust, representative of Trade, Commerce and Professions, member;

(h) Hon. Fostina B. Sinyangwe, hon. Member of Parliament, representative of the National Assembly of Zambia, member;

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, the others are:

(i) Mrs Lillian E. L. Kapulu, Permanent Secretary - Ministry of Education, member; and

(j) Mr Emmanuel Ngulube, Permanent Secretary, (Budget & Economic Affairs) Ministry of Finance and National Planning, member.

The remaining members of the council shall be appointed when the University structures from which they shall be nominated are put in place. These are:

 (a) two member of the academic staff of the University who shall be members of  the senate and shall be nominated by he senate;

(b) one member who shall be associated with universities outside the Republic;

(c) a student of the University who will be nominated by the students of the University;

(d) one person who shall be a member of the non-academic staff who shall be nominated by non-academic staff of the University;

(e) one member of the academic staff of the University elected by the academic staff of the University; and

(f) one member who shall be a graduate of the University.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, let me first salute the Government of the Republic of Zambia, in particular, the Ministry of Education for having made this positive achievement …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: … of turning an institution of learning into a university.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: My question is what are the conditions of service regarding the allowances of these members of the Council?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for acknowledging the efforts this Government is making in ensuring that tertiary institutions of learning are available for the development of a higher calibre of human resource in the country. This is how we strive to improve the quality of life of our people in the entire Republic.

Concerning the question, Madam, the answer is simple. All members of council of our public universities are entitled to sitting allowances whenever they meet as a full council or as committees of council.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, early this year, there was a report of gross abuse of human rights at Mr Chilala’s farm. Was this considered when he was being appointed as Chairperson of the Mulungushi University Council where he will be dealing with human rights?

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: Hear, hear!
Hon. Member: Malicious!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I do not think that matters which are not legally disposed of or legally brought forward on individuals should be issues on which individuals are disadvantaged when considering national responsibilities. I do not think that issue is a valid accusation on the concerned individual. His integrity is unquestionable.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: It is for this reason, Madam Speaker, that he was appointed to this very important responsibility in our land.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I note that the two members of the University Council are Vice-Chancellor and Deputy Vice-Chancellor respectively. Could you, please, enlighten the House when advertisements to fill these positions were made and how many people applied?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, when the appointments were made of Professor Vernon Chinene and Dr Veele to the respective positions of Vice-Chancellor and Deputy Vice-Chancellor, it was made very clear that these two individuals were going to hold those offices of responsibility in an acting capacity for a period of one year. That clarification which was made still stands and the positions will be advertised. Those who merit Vice-Chancellor and Deputy Vice-Chancellor positions will be identified as per established University Act of 1999.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

REVENUE RECEIVED FROM MUNUNSHI BANANA SCHEME

302. Dr Chishya (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how much revenue the Government received from the Mununshi Banana Scheme per year.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, the Mununshi Banana Scheme was sold to a private investor, and therefore, there is no revenue that the Government receives from the Scheme except in form of taxes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Chishya: Madam Speaker, can the Minister inform this House how much revenue in terms of taxes it receives from this Scheme?

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: Hear, hear! Tifuna tizibe bwino!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Sometimes, the Chair is forced to come in. The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives may not know the tax. However, she may have some answer.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, to help the hon. Member for Pambashe, I would inform him that it is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning which deals with taxes. He is free to visit those offices at any time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, during the 2001 General Elections, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) presidential candidate, now President of Zambia, Dr Patrick Mwanawasa, promised to find able investors to revamp the Mununshi Banana Scheme. Indeed, it was disposed of to a personal friend of the President who has actually lamentably failed to revamp this farm and it has reduced ten fold. Can this Government concede that it was just fraud to disadvantage the people of Mwense and Luapula? If so, what measures is this Government taking to allow for this farm to be repossessed and revamped so that the people of Mwense can have jobs?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: Iwe, Mwila!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives may respond to that, but before she does, I wish to advise that when we talk about individuals in the House, we have to be ready to justify and verify. This is because individuals are protected, and may not be here. Therefore, you must be very sure of what you are doing when you make allegations of relationships.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, in response to that question, I wish to inform the hon. Member that the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives does not deal in allegations or accusations.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Kalenga: In my answer, I mentioned that it was sold to a private investor. Therefore, I have no powers to take any measure because the Scheme was already sold to a private investor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, much as we appreciate that this Banana Scheme was sold to an individual, I also understand that the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives also has a stake in it. Can we learn from the hon. Minister whether the very private individual he is referring to has continued to produce bananas effectively for the consumption of the people at the Mununshi Banana Scheme? If he has, how much tonnage does he produce? I would like to be informed because I know they can access this information through the Co-operatives Department.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the information we have, as Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, is that the farm was sold to a private investor, but we may not be in a position to tell the tonnages produced there and the revenue realised therefrom. We need to come to the House at a later date or the hon. Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry can provide that data.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Babepa fye!

REHABILITATION OF SCHOOLS IN LUANSHYA

303. Mrs J. N. M. Phiri (Luanshya) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when the Government would rehabilitate the following schools in Luanshya Parliamentary Constituency, which have never been rehabilitated since independence:

(i) Ndelela Basic School;

(ii) Mipunda Basic School; and

(iii) Arusha Primary School; and

(b) when a secondary school for boys would be built in Luanshya Parliamentary Constituency since the one which used to cater for boys was converted into a high school.

Mr Sinyinda: Madam Speaker, Ndelela Middle Basic School, formerly Arusha and Mipunda Basic School were rehabilitated in 2001 under BESSIP. The ablution blocks at Mipunda were rehabilitated in 2006.

Madam Speaker, at the moment, there are no immediate plans to construct a high school for boys in Luanshya. Luanshya Boys High School still carters for boys only.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs J. N. M. Phiri: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Deputy Minister that Ndelela Basic School has no other name. Arusha is another primary school and has never been rehabilitated. This is just a kama open primary school at this point in time.

Laughter

Mrs J. N. M.  Phiri: Madam Speaker, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The procedures of the House are very clear. When we ask questions for oral answer, the next thing you do is ask a supplementary question. It should be just a short follow up question and there should be no debate. We tend to be saying a lot in the guise of building up a point. This building up takes hon. Members into debate. Nobody is soliciting information from you, but you are the one soliciting information from the hon. Minister. Can you ask your supplementary question?

Mrs J. N. M. Phiri: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out when Arusha Primary School is going to be rehabilitated because the windows at the primary school are broken. In addition, we need a wall fence to protect the school from vandalism. The sitting President went there …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That is not a question. I call upon the hon. Minister of Education to respond to that question.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, our response has clarified the state of the schools that were asked. The hon. Member did not know that rehabilitation works have been carried out at the schools at different times. I am sure she can verify the information that has been given.

Madam Speaker, rehabilitation works in all our institutions is a continuous process. We are sure that, at some point, and given the priorities of the district, the schools will be rehabilitated as seen fit by the District Education Board Secretary office.

I thank you, Madam.

RE-OPENING OF LUBWE OX TRADING CENTRE

304. Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when the Lubwe Ox Trading Centre in Chifunabuli Parliamentary Constituency would be re-opened.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, reduced funding to the Centre has resulted into underutilisation of the institution, making it appear as if it has been closed. We still have members of staff manning the station. However, plans are underway to resuscitate the Centre in the 2009 Annual Budget.

I thank you, Madam.

CONSTRUCTION OF OFFICE ACCOMMODATION IN MPIKA

305. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services when office accommodation for staff in the Ministry would be constructed in Mpika District.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Chinyanta): Madam Speaker, owing to budgetary constraints, it is not possible to state exactly when office accommodation will be provided for officers in Mpika District. However, the Ministry is making efforts to ensure that office accommodation is provided for and will adopt a phased approach.

I thank you.

COMMISSIONING OF RESOURCE CENTRE AT KALALANTEKWE

306. Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu) asked the Minister of Education when the newly constructed Resource Centre at Kalalantekwe in Shiwang’andu Parliamentary Constituency would be commissioned to begin operations.

Mr Sinyinda: Madam Speaker, the structures have been completed and the contractor is just attending to minor defects and the correction of installation of solar panels before the handover which is expected to be done by 1st November, 2008.

I thank you, Madam.

INDIGENOUS TIMBER HARVESTING

307. Mr Mwapela (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how many districts were involved in timber production; and

(b) what the minimum revenue collection from indigenous timber harvesting per month and per annum was.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Tembo): Madam Speaker, all the seventy-two districts in the country are involved in timber production through operations of either casual, pitsaw or commercial licence holders.

Madam Speaker, the average revenue collection from indigenous timber harvesting based on 2006 and 2007 are K320 million and K4 billion per month and per annum, respectively.

I thank you, Madam.

REHABILITATION OF CHIWOMA RURAL HEALTH CENTRE

308. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when the Government would rehabilitate Chiwoma Rural Health Centre in Mwinilunga East Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) when the solar system at the rural health centre above would be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, rehabilitation of Chiwoma Rural Health Centre in Mwinilunga Ward will be undertaken in the year 2009 and this is according to our strategic plan.

The solar system at the Rural Health Centre will be rehabilitated at the end of August, 2008.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Katuka: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. However, may I find out when his Ministry will bring to this House their annual work plan which they promised to bring in the last sitting of the House?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Madam Speaker, the infrastructure Development Plan is ready. It is actually being printed. Therefore, in due course, hon. Members of Parliament will receive it.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

COMPLETION OF MOBA AND KAOMA MAKASA BASIC SCHOOLS IN CHIPILI

309. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when construction of the following schools in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency would be completed:

(i) Moba Basic School; and

(ii) Kaoma Makasa Basic School; and

(b) how much money had so far been spent on the construction of the two schools above.

Mr Sinyinda: Madam Speaker, the two schools were left uncompleted when Basic Education Sub-Sector Programme (BESSIP) came to an end. However, they have been budgeted for completion in the 2009 infrastructure budget.

Madam Speaker, the money so far spent on the construction of the two schools is as follows:

School Amount

Moba K105 million

Kaoma Makasa  K105 million.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that response.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

REHABILITATION OF VETERINARY OFFICES IN NANGOMA

310. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) when offices for veterinary officers in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency would be rehabilitated; and
 
(b) when sufficient staff houses for the officers at (a) above would be constructed.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, currently, there are no Veterinary offices in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency. Therefore, the issue of rehabilitation does not arise. Veterinary Camp officers operate from their homes. However, there are plans to build offices for the Veterinary officers with the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, there are four staff houses in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency. Two houses require rehabilitation. One house is not fit for human habitation and needs to be demolished and a new one built in its place, whilst the other house is habitable. There are no funds to rehabilitate the staff houses in the 2008 Budget. However, the Provincial Veterinary Office will seek budgetary provisions in the 2009 Budget.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

____

MOTION

REVIEW OF TENURE OF OFFICE FOR MAYORS AND COUNCIL CHAIRPERSONS

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to amend the Local Government Act so as to review the tenure of office for the Mayors and Council Chairpersons from the current one year to two and half years, for the purpose of continuity in provision of Local Government leadership in view of the pending decentralisation programme.

Madam Deputy Chairperson: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mooya (Momba): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, according to Section 6(2) of the Local Government Act Cap 281 of the Laws of Zambia, ‘the Mayor, Deputy Chairperson or Vice-Chairman of councils shall be elected annually at the First Ordinary Meeting of the Council held after the 1st September in that year. Further, sub-section (3), states that “no person shall hold office as Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Chairman or Vice-Chairman for more than two consecutive terms, where a person has held any such office for two consecutive terms, he may not be re-elected to that office again until the expiry of two years from the date on which he held such office.”

Madam Speaker, in essence, the Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Chairman or Vice-Chairman can only be in office for two years if re-elected, otherwise it is just for one year. In this regard, holding elections for mayors and council chairpersons every year is working against development co-ordination and continuity because programmes initiated may just have taken off. Hence, the one year period is not adequate for the elected official to implement the intended projects. Therefore, prolonging the period would help the mayors and council chairpersons to see the take off of the initiated developmental projects.

Madam Speaker, prolonging the tenure of office would also enhance the capacity of mayor and council chairperson to effectively discharge their duties. The mayors and council chairpersons, who are also councillors represent their constituency and are responsible for policy making and supervising implementation of the policies. The importance of building capacity in supervising and implementing policies cannot be overemphasised, because mayors and chairpersons are expected to provide quality leadership for councils. It is also their duty to ensure that there is effective communication and respectful relationship between councillors and the administration.

Furthermore, Madam Speaker, while it is important for councils to have policies which would ensure that the various districts grow and develop in an orderly planned manner so that they achieve a balanced composition of industrial, commercial, residential and public use, preserving and enhancing the quality of the existing management, it is also critical that the mayors and council chairpersons, who are heads of councils, have the necessary competency and experience to handle all the various components that are involved in Local Government development.

Madam Speaker, you are aware that one cannot attain the required experience in one year. It is true that in the first year especially, people are just settling in and possibly just identifying the necessary needs. It therefore follows, that in the case of mayors and council chairpersons, at the time when they are coming to grips with what their job entails, it would be time for another election. Elections usher in a new person, who again requires to be oriented. For this reason, it can be argued that councils are not having experienced people to head them.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, spends a lot of money in capacity building for mayors and council chairpersons and by the time they are trying to settle down and understand their role, they are facing elections. Extending the tenure of office will ensure that they build enough capacity and have sufficient time to apply their knowledge. This will also help the Government save money that is spent on capacity building.

Madam Speaker, allow me to end by briefly outlining the various roles and duties that the mayors and council chairpersons are expected to perform. The mayors and council chairpersons are elected by the council to represent the views and directions of the council through their leadership role to both the council and the community. They are there to lead, inspire and support the team of elected councillors, as well as to be a source of inspiration for council staff. The mayors and council chairpersons are also there to develop and maintain relationship with other Government Departments and business houses within their locality. The mayors are a symbol of work with the media on maintaining positive relationships. There are many other duties and roles which need to be attained as I have already pointed out.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to urge the House to support this non-controversial Private Member’s Motion so that the Local Government Act can be amended to provide for the extension in the tenure of office for mayors and council chairpersons from the current one year to two-and-half years.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for allowing me to second this Motion. Allow me to start by paying tribute to the mover of the Motion for the able manner in which he has moved the Motion.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, I wish to bring out the critical role that the Local Government authorities play in national development. The Local Government cannot be understood and appraised without some good conception of the extent and magnitude of the services it administers and the varying characteristics it possesses.

Madam Speaker, the role that is played by local authorities as stated in Cap. 281 of the Laws of Zambia under Section 6 are complex and a majority of Zambians remain unaware to what extent the Local Government is responsible for their daily needs. Local Government authorities are strategically positioned for the provision of social amenities such as water and sanitation, road maintenance, housing and many others. These activities which are carried out by the councils are essential for creating job opportunities which, in turn, lead to poverty alleviation.

Madam Speaker, it should also be realised and appreciated that Local Government authorities play a critical role in promoting economic development through maintaining and regulating municipal laws and regulations. It is a common fact that these economic development projects take a long time to be completed. This fact provides the gist of this well intended Motion.

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, mayors and council chairpersons are elected to offices for a period of one year to represent the views and directions of councils in performing various roles and duties on behalf of councils. The short tenure of office is working against development co-ordination and continuity at the district level because of the various roles that are played by mayors and council chairpersons. They carry out governance roles which include providing a source of leadership for the council and ensuring that there is effective communication between councils and the staff in pursuit of council goals. They also chair council meetings and maintain external relations with other organisations.

Madam, in view of what I have said above, it is my submission that the mayors’ and council chairpersons’ term of office be extended from one year to two and half years because of the various programmes going on in various constituencies that need leadership stability. Some of these programmes are just beginning and, if left to others, may not be completed.

Madam Speaker, further, the extension of the tenure of office would enable mayors and council chairpersons to settle down and avoid deviation of attention from developmental issues to continuation in their positions. As already noted, it also hinders consistency and continuity in the implementation of development projects at ward levels. The lack of continuity also works against hon. Members of Parliament who need mayors and council chairpersons as collaborators.

Madam Speaker, extension of the tenure of office will save the Government a lot of money which is spent during the annual installation of mayors and council chairpersons. The money could be used in other needy areas. Budget constraints that have dogged this country for a long time and non-completion of projects are what this Motion seeks to address.

In conclusion, I wish to say that this is a non-controversial Motion that needs to be supported by all hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I stand to reject the Motion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: First of all, I reject the Motion because the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has stood on the Floor of this House several times to say that a new Act on this issue is soon coming before this House. Currently, the Ministry is busy organising the necessary logistics for the new Act to be brought to Parliament.

Secondly, this issue is being tabled at the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). Ignorance about what is happening at the NCC is the price that some people are paying for not attending the Conference.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: I, therefore, ask those people who are not attending the NCC to come and join us because we have left them behind.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Speaker, I strongly feel that this Motion is coming through the backdoor, therefore, I strongly reject it.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on this non-controversial Motion, which is obviously supposed to be rejected.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the Ministry has been organising seminars, and less than a month ago, His Honour, the Vice-President was in Livingstone to meet all the mayors, deputies, chairpersons and town clerks. He announced that the tenure of office for mayors and council chairpersons would be reviewed when the Local Government Service Commission comes is launched. This is a programme already being undertaken by the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is not something that should be hijacked by a person who does not know how the Government operates.

Madam Speaker, the issue on this motion is also being looked at by the NCC. We had the Constitution Review Commission (CRC) which had all the hon. Members of Parliament. I remember my very good colleague, Hon. Musonda from the Patriotic Front (PF), effectively represented the PF on the CRC and contributed to what the people wanted, which is the setting up of a constituent assembly or conference, as it was called then.

Madam Speaker, in response to what the people wanted, the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID), which was then led by my colleague, Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba as chairperson, organised a meeting for all the presidents of political parties.

Mr D. Mwila: Where is he?

Mr Tetamashimba: He is seated right there near the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) National Chairperson.

Madam Speaker, at this important meeting, I was very happy that the PF President, Michael Sata, stood up and hugged his young brother, His Excellency, the President and said, “bashi Chipo, ifi kwena ngefyo muchita lyonse, awe mukwai nga tulifye pamo.” Meaning that, “the father of Chipo, if the way you have agreed to this meeting was the way you agreed to things, there would be no need for PF to exist.”

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr Tetamashimba: Hon Sakwiba Sikota, the President of United Liberal Party (ULP) was in that meeting and I know his integrity, he cannot stand up to say no because it happened.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, after that meeting, they agreed to have the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). That is how this Government …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Tetamashimba: … of course, there was money given by the Zambia Centre for Inter party Dialogue and all political parties that are in the forefront in speaking are failing to account for it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam, that is how this NCC Bill was brought into this House, and I remember very well that there was no absence of any hon. Member of Parliament in this House. Everybody was present and we supported the NCC Bill until it became an Act.

Madam Speaker, when that happened, all of us who are well- meaning were very happy in that we were going to move in one direction. Unfortunately, the political party to which the mover belongs, decided to change course at 180 degrees, and started going backwards.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the NCC was supposed to have been attended by all hon. Members of Parliament because the Zambian people said “go and make laws that side. After making laws that side, the document will go to Parliament and from Parliament, it will be law.”

Dr Katema: To make money!

Mr Tetamashimba: It will become law we agree of course and not to make money. We do not make money like that. It is on record that this Parliament has existed for more than forty years and from 1991 to 2001, those who were hon. Ministers got increments and did not debate against that. Therefore, it is not something new.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

We take every Motion in the House very seriously and the Chair’s guidance is that we stick to the Motion. Otherwise, we risk going into all sorts of history which may not be helpful for the time. Can the hon. Deputy Minister on the Floor debate the Motion?

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the essence of the NCC was to debate what we want as Zambians. It is malicious for people who do not want to change laws …

Major Chizhyuka: For better!

Mr Tetamashimba: … yes for better, and using the forum that they have agreed upon to start bringing them through the backdoor.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Whatever the hon. Members of the House may feel, I think that backdoor is a wrong word at this time because hon. Members are free to bring motions such as this one. Therefore, give reasons for your position.

Mr Kambwili: Iwe, chipuba!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, Hon. Kambwili should not say “Iwe, chipuba”. I am sure he knows that I am one of the senior most hon. Members of Parliament who has been wining throughout.
 
Madam Speaker, this Motion is malicious and it is is coming after the Government has put everything in place to do what this Motion is seeking to achieve. It is a Motion intended to get mileage which is not supposed to be given. We have to wait for the right time for the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing whose Acting President in this country made the announcement to the nation. It is, therefore, not correct to go against the whole procedure of having the Local Government Service Commission where all Mayors in this country came and agreed that the hon. Minister must bring the relevant legislation to Parliament. It is not correct for hon. Members of Parliament to bring in an urgent Motion to try and circumvent what the Government is trying to do after hearing from their chairmen and Mayors about what they have agreed and the hon. Minister will be bringing legislation to Parliament.

Hon. PF Members: Who?

Mr Tetamashimba: I think this Motion cannot and should not be supported by well meaning hon. Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, I will also add my voice to that of others who have rejected this Private Member’s Motion which has been brought to this House by our colleague.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: First and foremost, we would have seen somebody coming to this House or through the Local Government Association to petition and say that they want to extend the tenure of office for Mayors and their Chairpersons. Unfortunately, this has not been done. We have problems, indeed, but if we are not careful, by extending the tenure, we may even extend the inefficiency of some of these Mayors.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: Therefore, why should we come? We must wait for the appropriate time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: I must also say that we had an opportunity to moot this idea, like my brother stated, during the NCC time where some of these submissions should have been brought.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: Indeed, as we look into this, I am sure as stated by the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing, the hon. Minister will bring a Bill to this House to cater for the concerns raised in the Motion. I have some answer here from the Parliamentary Debate dated 25th July to 15th August, 1995.

Madam Speaker, let me just read some of the lines the Local Government Minister, the late Hon. Ben Mwiinga said. I am making this in connection with what the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing said about the re-establishment of the Local Government Service Commission. I just want to quote this since the hon. Minister said this Bill will come in this House. I would also want to say and I quote:

 “Sir, this august House is fully aware …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam!

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker is the debater in order to debate a Motion that is not on the Floor of this House? He is debating the re-establishment of the Local Government Service Commission. The issue on the Floor is tenure of office for Mayors. I seek your guidance.

Madam Deputy Speaker: From the Chair’s understanding, the hon. Member who has raised the point of order is concerned that the hon. Member debating has brought in a new issue which is the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission rather than the tenure of office of Mayors and chairpersons. The Chair, from the debate, has understood the connection between the two offices that the hon. Member is referring to. So far, the hon. Member does not seem to have gone off the tenure of office, but is looking at the Service Commission providing service to the Local Government. Let us listen. If he goes off, then there will be need to bring him back to the Motion on the Floor, but for now, he is in order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: Madam Speaker, I wish to quote the debate I referred to earlier. It reads:

“Sir, this august House is fully aware that Local Government Act No. 22 of 1991, had a lot of inadequacies. Further, both the Local Government Amendment Acts, Nos. 19 and 30 of 1992 and 1993, respectively, did not cover all the issues which required addressing.

“The purpose of the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, before the House today is the Abolition of the Local Government Service Commission and the establishment of a Provincial Local Government Appeals Board to give powers to local authorities, among other over employment decisions. I will wait until the hon. Members of the Opposition come in.”

These were the remarks made by the then hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. Now, as the hon. Minister stated that this Bill is coming back, we are getting worried because it was rejected by the people. They opposed that we abolish the Local Government Service Commission. Why then …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair, at this point, has also started to wonder whether the hon. Member is, indeed, debating the Commission or the tenure of office of Mayors and Council Chairpersons. The Motion is on the tenure not on the establishment. Unless you connect the two, that is a different issue altogether. Unless you can establish that you are talking about the tenure of office which is still in the existing Act, you will have gone off the point.

Will the hon. Member for Kabushi, please, continue.

Mr Msichili: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance.

In conclusion, I also wish to reject the Motion which has been moved in the House.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Speaker, within the time available, I would like to debate concepts and not the messengers. I think I have no personal difference with the messengers who brought the message, but I have great difficulty with the message he has brought.

Partly, I think I agree with my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing that it is wrong timing, but more importantly, it needs to be thought through carefully. There are pros and cons in the hon. Member’s Motion which he brings to our attention. I will emphasise here the pros, the good side of things. Maybe, we need to look at also the dangers that may be there, which we need to think through long enough before we can go to a Bill.

The Local Government is a seat where popular interest leads Government interest and it is important that leadership at that level is responsive. It is intelligent. It is also sensitive to the needs of the people. It is possible to have a mayor and chairman who may not answer to the demands and concerns of the people to start with.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[Madam Speaker in the Chair]

Dr Kalumba: When business was suspended, Madam Speaker, I was developing the point that it is important to debate the message and not the messenger. Therefore, I do not have any problem with Hon. Kambwili, but I want to debate his message.

My concern is that while it is appreciated that this issue be addressed, I think the mode and manner in which it is being introduced raises serious questions whether, in fact, our hon. Member has considered the intricate issues involved.

Firstly, the Government has not said and I am not saying, and I want to make this point very clear, that Mayors and Council Chairpersons taking two-and-half years in office is a bad thing. That is not the point. I want to be clear about that and, as MMD Government, I think it is a very good concept that we extend the tenure of Mayors, but at the same time, as we do so, we should consider checks and balances that need to be put in place in order not to create a scenario where we have same Mayors or same chairpersons who are not responsive to the needs of our people.

Now in other countries, such as, the United States of America, for example, California is a classic example. You have measure for recall when a Mayor is not performing properly. There is a provision for recall. Why? This is because it is important. We are dealing with Local Government issues and, therefore, we should have a mechanism addressing incompetence. Incompetence at the level of Local Government can have disastrous effects. Therefore, it is important that as we think through the idea of extending this tenure, we also make provisions that will protect the interests of our people.

Corruption in the United States of America, I am giving United States of America as an example, is more rampant in municipalities than at the Federal Government level. That is why there is a system of recall so that when there is a problem, you can quickly change leadership.

You have in some cities in the United States of America, such as Chicago, where one family, the Daley family, has been churning out Mayors for over five decades.

At the Local Government level, contracts and tenders of all kinds are awarded. This is the only place where you find our people seeking some empowerment. In countries such as Italy, the Mafia operates at the Local Government level.
. 
This, therefore, it is a very sensitive area where we need to think through carefully when making legislation in terms of leadership for this level of Government.

Hon. Kambwili, the point is not that the idea is wrong, but that we need to time it correctly, link it to other constitutional considerations as well as the continuity of governments.

If it is imperative that the Government moves earlier than the NCC, let it be done. However, it must be done after having thought through the steps carefully to protect the interests of our people.

Madam Speaker, I am the Chairman of the Local Government Committee here in Parliament and I have listened to many council secretaries’ presentations. What has come out is that there is a need to address the system of Government, improve the managerial capacity and improve the structure of political leadership at Local Government level. We will not do it hastily. It is a good idea to develop a consultative process where your voice, Hon. Kambwili, can be integrated into that of the Government.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Address the Chair and not the hon. Member.

Dr Kalumba: I apologise and withdraw, Madam Speaker. I would like to invite the hon. Member to feel humble enough to knock on the door of the office of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing and sit down and pose these concerns in a systematic way.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Madam Speaker, it is easy to do things to win political capital. The mayors and council chairpersons out there feel as though the MMD Government is against the need for a long tenure. We are not against the need for a long tenure. This is the unspoken part of this Motion. This is the dangerous part that my colleague called the malicious part of the Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It is not the person that is malicious, but the Motion.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: I would like to urge him to be a team player. He is a very intelligent, active, vibrant, and energetic. He also speaks with a lot of force. However, I need to call upon him to be a team player. When you have a good idea, work it through properly.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Work with others to make it a collective team idea and not a personal idea so that we both win. If we are playing politics with this one, we are going to lose, hon. Member of Parliament for Roan.

Madam Speaker, the last point I want to make is that the NCC has an agenda, and it is a long agenda. I would like to urge the Government to consider those issues that are urgent that may not require the complex processes of the NCC to be addressed at the right time. Perhaps these can be addressed earlier than the rest of the documents. In this instance, we know that no one is opposed to the idea of extended tenure for Mayors and council chairpersons and, therefore, do not need the NCC to finish its work for the Bill to come. I urge the hon. Minister, at an appropriate time, after having considered all the components to this issue, to bring the Bill to the House. We will support it.

I, therefore, reject the Motion as it stands.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, I would like to agree with the hon. Member for Chienge that the NCC does not take away the responsibilities of this Parliament to legislate that which the Government feels is of importance in the deliverance of good governance. However, I wish to put on record that much as we look at the Motion, the issues which are critical and must be reflected very seriously are issues of service.

Madam Speaker, are councils and township municipalities currently rendering appropriate services acceptable by all standards, for the people? The other questions we should ask ourselves as we consider extension of tenure of office of Mayors and chairpersons are the causes of the failure of councils to deliver.

To me, that is very important. Is it a management or policy problem? Is it as a result of conflict of interest? Personally, I feel that councils are key and pivotal for any Government in the delivery of service as they are closer to the people.

What should be priority is to consider, through a Bill, the de-politicisation of councils. What is happening currently is that politicians have turned these councils into political boxing arenas where, if the MMD guys have a mayor, then they want to believe that the council belongs to MMD.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Chimbaka: Where the Patriotic Front (PF) have a mayor …

The Deputy Speaker: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, you have noticed that I rarely rise on a point of order …

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Chimbaka, who is speaking like a priest, in order to refer to the MMD as “guys” when he is speaking in this august House. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member speaking has heard the point of order.

He may continue.

Mr Chimbaka: Thank you, Madam Speaker. When we are at the Parliament Motel, we have our own language with Hon. Sichilima.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That is not the language here.

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, I have heard you and will abide by parliamentary language. What I was saying was that most times, due to political evolution, political parties have tended to turn councils into arenas for political boxing. The issues for which councils exist are service delivery. Councils are local governments and are civil in their being and are supposed to address issues.

Therefore, the extension of the tenure of office for the Mayors and chairpersons is not the solution. This is because Mayors are not Executive, but ceremonial positions. The most important office in the council is that of the Town Clerk and Council Secretary. Those are the people who have executive powers to implement Local Government policies. Those are the offices we must guard jealously against because they are the technocrats with experience. They are the implementers and planners.

Madam Speaker, if Mayors were turned into executive mayors, that would be a different issue. However, what is important now is not to consider extension of the mayoral or chairperson’s tenure, but rather the councils consider revamping, re-designing and up rating training for council employees. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has been on …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I believe that the hon. Members of this august House do appreciate that, in as much as they may not to want to listen to the debate and have other things to consult on, it is very difficult for the Chair to compete for what to hear between your …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

It is not easy not easy to compete, within one’s mind, for what to hear because the Chair hears everything. Therefore, to follow the debate becomes a very difficult task. Nobody would expect you to sit without saying a word, but it is the manner in which you speak to one another, so freely, as if you are not in this Chamber which you all know there are procedures to follow. In fact, we must all be listening to the one debating.

Can you, please, consult quietly? Even as I am talking, I do not think some people are listening to the advice of the Chair because they are still consulting over my advice.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Do not compel the Chair to act in a certain manner.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your protection.

I am a schooled and disciplined educationist and do get psychologically emotional about people who want to play politics on the Floor of the House. I have resolved to deliver what I have to.

However, what is important now for all of us, as councils and as a Government, is to ensure that the Government realises its policy directives through restructuring, re-aligning and streamlining roles and responsibilities of councils and council officers. This is because during the Second Republic when the Civil Service and councils were merged to provide services, we developed phobia, and not xenophobia, of behaving and believing that councils are political grounds. Therefore, in addition to what other people have spoken, I would rather say that we let this Motion be deferred for a while until the Ministry of Local Government and Housing comes up with appropriate legislation to ensure that what has been agreed upon, through all Provincial Local Government Councils, has been realised and put together. That is when we can do what is required of us.

With these words, Madam Speaker, I reject endorsing the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor. I would like to say that the hon. Members who have spoken before me have raised a number of issues that I would have loved to raise on this Motion. Therefore, my statement will be very short.

Madam, I would like to appreciate that hon. Members of this House are taking keen interest in issues of Local Government. However, it is important to note that in as much as we have the right to move Motions, we move them in a co-ordinated manner so that we are seen to be a serious group of hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, I would like to state that two weeks ago, we had a Local Government Annual General Meeting in Livingstone. At that meeting, the Vice-President informed the members of the conference that after the meeting which was held between the Mayors, councillors, Local Government Association and Zambia United Local Authorities Union in May, 2007, the Mayors made a presentation to the President, His Excellency President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. They said that since the Government had increased the tenure of office for councillors from three to five years, it would also make sense to increase the tenure of office for Mayors from one to two years because this would be less costly.

His Excellency studied the matter and wrote a letter to the hon. Minister of Justice copied to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing saying he had considered this matter and the suggestion made sense. Therefore, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing should bring a Bill to amend the Local Government Act to take this issue into account.

In addition, other issues such as the Decentralisation Implementation Policy must also be brought before this House so that we deal with these matters in an orderly and effective manner.

The hon. Member who has moved this Motion is fully aware that this issue is before Cabinet and that this Government intends to bring some amendments to the Local Government Act in addition to other amendments such as the issue of tenure. Therefore, for one to move a Motion to urge the Government that has already taken a decision on the matter, makes things very difficult. What is the hon. Member urging the Government to do because the Government has already started the process of consultations? The matter is already before Cabinet and the House will debate this matter. Madam Speaker, that is why you have seen that Government Members and some Opposition Members have rejected this Motion. It is not the principle, but the manner in which we are handling these issues.

I would like to inform hon. Members of Parliament that we are one and when matters come in this House, we must debate them, yes. There will be others for and against based on real issues. We must not bring issues in a manner that will seem as if we want to make political mileage because the other hon. Members will not appreciate it. This House should not be used for politics. This House should be used to make good laws.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, this House should be used to make laws that will be appreciated by the people whom we are serving. We should not be using this House to gain political mileage even when there is no need for that because you can end up confusing issues and, in turn, the members of the public. This matter will come before this House very soon. Why move this Motion in the first place?

Madam Speaker, I am sure that you must have been reading newspapers …

Mr Ngoma: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Do you want to raise a point of order on the hon. Minister?

Mr Ngoma: Yes, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is it on a statement of fact?

Mr Ngoma: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is it misinformation?

Mr Ngoma: Not really, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying that this Government, under the able leadership of His Excellency, President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … under the able leadership of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … under the able leadership of the hon. Members of Parliament, both from the right and the left, who want us to move in a focused manner, we wish to appeal to the hon. Member of Parliament who has moved this Motion that we appreciate this Motion, but there is no need for it to be accepted. Therefore, he must withdraw it and allow us to bring things in the normal way. There is no need for political gain when there is nothing to gain.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I wish to state that I have no intention of withdrawing the Motion.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam, I also wish to state that this Government must know that delays in implementing things is a danger. We bring Motions to this House not to gain political mileage. I am an hon. Member of Parliament for Roan Constituency and if my people in my constituency send me to move a Motion that will improve the service delivery of Luanshya Municipal Council, I will do it. I do not need to consult the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I am in the Opposition and my job is just to consult my fellow Members in the Opposition. There is no law or rule in this House that states that when you want to move a motion, you should consult the Government of the day. I am an hon. Member of Parliament and I have the right to move a motion as I deem fit. Therefore, the interpretation of what has been debated by the MMD is that they are just scared ...

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … of the fact that it is the Opposition that is pushing them to move in the right direction. That is the interpretation of their debate. How can they say they are rejecting the Motion and are about to bring a Bill on the same matter and will support it? It does not make sense. It is as if you are pushing a car and when a third person comes to help you, you stop pushing the car because you only want the two of you to do it. It does not make sense. This Government must be responsible enough to accept advice and proposals from other people. They should not champion the development of this country. We are all stakeholders in the development of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, let me turn to other honourables’ comments such as Hon. Msichili’s. I am fully aware that Hon. Msichili is in a war of words with a Mayor and he would want him to leave office as soon as possible.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The House has guided that in debates in this House, we should debate issues and not involve people who are not here to defend themselves. You, as hon. Members, speak. However, if you start bringing in people from outside, how do you expect them to defend themselves if there is a need?

Can we, please, stick to the Motion and not debate who has a difference with who? Look at the issue and debate.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I want to caution this House that Parliament is above NCC. You are not going to tell us that issues that are being discussed at the NCC cannot be discussed in Parliament. That is irresponsible.

Mr Lubinda: Bauze, mwana!

Mr D. Mwila: Bebe!

Mr Kambwili: Madam, NCC is a child of Parliament. It was born here. Therefore, we supersede what is being done at the NCC. In any case, when the law is proposed there, it will still come to Parliament for approval.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam, therefore, it is irresponsible for people to say that we cannot talk about anything that is being discussed at the NCC. We must have respect for people’s opinions. My opinion is not to go to the NCC and, therefore, I should not be condemned or be told to be part of the NCC that I do not believe in. If you want us to participate in the NCC, change some things that we told you to change …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … and we will surely come and participate.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Madam, therefore, let us not come to this House and make Parliament fighting battleground between those who have declined from participating in the NCC and those that are participating in it.

For Hon. Mbewe to stand and say that he will not support the Motion because he is at NCC, is being irresponsible. In this Parliament, we are going to do what is required of Parliament. As an hon. Member of Parliament, I have the right to move a Motion in this House. It is up to the House to reject or accept it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me thank the seconder of this Motion who ably seconded the Motion and all the speakers who have spoken despite the differences.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and negatived.

_______

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

THE PRESIDENTIAL EMOLUMENTS (Amendment) BILL, 2008

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE MINISTERIAL AND PARLIEMNTARY OFFICES (Emoluments) (Amendment) BILL, 2008

Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICES EMOLUMENTS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Presidential Emoluments (Amendment) Bill, 2008

The Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Emoluments (Amendment) Bill, 2008

The Constitutional Offices Emoluments (Amendment) Bill, 2008

Third Readings on Tuesday, 18th August, 2008.

________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_________

The House adjourned at 1709 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 14th August, 2008.