Debates- Tuesday, 18th November, 2008

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Tuesday, 18th November, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





The following Members took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Christopher Kalila Kalila

Chileshe Mpundu Kapwepwe

Situmbeko Musokotwane

Vernon Johnson Mwaanga

Davies Mwango



421. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Defence how many Zambian soldiers and police officers died while on peace-keeping missions outside the country from 2004 to 2007.

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, six soldiers and four police officers died while on peace-keeping missions outside the country from 2004 to 2007.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Defence whether the United Nations (UN) compensates the families of officers who have died while on UN peace-keeping missions.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, the United Nations contributes US$50,000 to each bereaved family. That is besides the conditions of service as spelled out.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the US$50,000 that the UN contributes has been paid to the bereaved families.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, the United Nations has acquitted itself in that regard.
I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yourselves!

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, apart from the US$50,000 that the United Nations contributes, I would like to find out how much this Government contributes.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, I indicated that apart from the Government’s assistance, families of the deceased are paid according to the conditions of service.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the hon. Minister is aware that there are a lot of families who have not been paid to date? If he is aware, how many families have not been paid yet?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, the follow-up question has no substance. I have clearly indicated that there are six soldiers and four police officers and these have been paid in full. I am not aware of what he is talking about.

I thank you, Sir.


422. Mr Chongo (Mwense) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how much money was initially allocated to the Programme for Luapula Agricultural and Rural Development (PLARD) in Luapula;

(b) how much money had so far been spent on PLARD projects since inception, district by district; and

(c) what other projects were targeted, district by district, and when they would be implemented.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, 10, 327,000 Euros, which is equivalent to K51,635,000,000, was allocated to the Programme for Luapula Agricultural and Rural Development in Luapula Province for the period 1st March, 2006 to 28th February, 2010.

Mr Speaker, by 28th May, 2008, the total amount spent was 2,732,881 Euros, which is equivalent to K13,804,658,743. Furthermore, PLARD activities are mostly implemented by the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and to a lesser extent by other partners, such as the District Farmers Association and Fishers Association.

Sir, PLARD does not provide funding on a district by district basis. Instead, activities are in four components namely; Fisheries, Agriculture, Agribusiness and Institution and Policy Support and, also, around key products such as fish, groundnuts, beans, vegetables, goats, sheep and poultry.

Finally, the other project implemented in the Luapula Province is the Government-funded Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) which supports small-scale farmers with subsidised inputs in the districts.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, K51.6 billion is quite a colossal sum of money. The people of Luapula Province, through their hon. Member of Parliament, have been to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to tell them about the projects …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is your follow-up question?

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, when is the ministry going to direct the monies towards the projects that the hon. Members of Parliament are suggesting because we believe they will impact positively on the community.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, our planning process starts at the district level. It would be prudent for hon. Members of Parliament to involve the districts as they start planning since this is the basis on which these activities are funded.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that whenever we approach the district and provincial managers, they refer us to Lusaka? How can he, therefore, reconcile the two, bearing in mind that he is a new arrival in that ministry?


Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives will ignore the last part of that statement.


Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, if that is what has happened, that is unfortunate because the plans have been decentralised. Therefore, we do not expect the provincial and district administrations to refer such senior leaders to the Ministry of Health …


Dr Chituwo: ... Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives Headquarters.


Mr Speaker: Order! This is what the Romans refer to as ellipsis lingua, meaning a slip of the tongue.


Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, since we are in the planning phase for next year’s Budget, the PLARD input is in our strategic plan. This is an issue which we shall quickly follow up on and ensure that we speak with a coherent voice.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether the books of accounts in the departments he has mentioned are audited annually.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, since the monies and activities are approved by the Government, I would like to confirm that the books are audited not only by the Government by also by our co-operating partners.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


423. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when repair works would start on the Tuta road from Mukuku Bridge to Kashikishi; and

(b) what measures the ministry had taken to ensure that those responsible for the damage to the road infrastructure while reaping huge benefits contribute to the repair of the infrastructure.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the ministry, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), is in the process of commencing the works for the periodic maintenance of the road between Serenje and Mansa through Masaila (Samfya). There is K4 billion in the 2008 Annual Work Plan to carry out surface repairs for the road.

The Road Development Agency has purchased premix for the Regional Engineer for Luapula Province to carry out the pot-hole patching of the Mansa/Mwense/Nchelenge Road. This is to ensure that the condition of the road does not deteriorate further before it is resealed. The resealing of the road will be included in the 2009 Annual Work Plan.

Mr Speaker, my ministry, through RDA, has introduced new regulations effective 13th May, 2007, which ensure that any damage caused by overloaded vehicles is adequately compensated through fees imposed on the owners of the vehicles. Further, owners of the vehicles that damage the road carry out the necessary repairs or replace the damaged furniture of the road such as road signs, guard rails, kerbs etc. All fees and fines collected are deposited into the Road Fund for the maintenance of roads and support to the Axle Load Control Programme.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister stated that plans were under way to take punitive measures against those who damage the road through overloading. Is he aware that there are no weighbridges all the way from Kashikishi to the end of Tuta Road where it joins the Great North Road? How is this going to be assessed? Trucks have been ferrying copper from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) on that road, damaging the roads and nothing has been done about this.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, it has been easy to collect fees from the people who use the roads. However, that is being addressed through the Public Private Partnership (PPP), where we have encouraged the private sector to join hands with the Government in setting up tollgates on the road. That way, it becomes easier to account for the money. You will recall that when we had weighbridges, we had difficulty accounting for the money that was being collected from there. We still have difficulty pursuing this issue the hon. Member has raised. Therefore, the Government is seriously pursuing this matter through the PPP.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister consider introducing tollgates so that the revenue collected by his ministry could be used to repair the road.

 Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has repeated what I said except that he said it in his own words.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, a few months ago, the former hon. Minister for Luapula Province indicated to the whole nation that funds for the rehabilitation of the same road in question were readily available. I would like to know where this money has been taken to.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the funds are available, but the provincial engineer who was supposed to supervise the works did not do his work properly. However, administrative measures have been taken to correct this. Therefore, there is no problem because the money is there.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, we have seen the Government mounting portable weighbridges on the Great North Road and many other roads. Why can the Government not mount a similar weighbridge on this road to avoid the damaged caused by overloaded vehicles?

 Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, this is an ongoing project, and we hope that will we will cover all the roads within time.

  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Deputy Minister, 2009 has been earmarked for periodic maintenance and money has been set aside for this. I would like to find out from the ministry what has happened to that plan, because last year, we were told that the same road was earmarked for total resurfacing in 2009.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, a contractor is being identified and when the contracted has been awarded, we hope that work will commence in earnest so that the road is resurfaced.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the Government bought graders and other machinery to work on the feeder roads in all the provinces. We expected the Provincial Road Development Agency to manage this machinery. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this system has been changed and why the Permanent Secretary is supervising the machinery.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I agree that Government has procured equipment to repair the roads, but you will appreciate that to get it operational calls for a lot of administrative work. A unit has been set up at the headquarters to monitor the use of this equipment. For some reason, some provinces have received it enthusiastically while others, such as the Western Province, have packed it from the time they received it and are giving various excuses for this. However, I can assure you that we are determined to ensure that the feeder roads are attended to. In any case, that is the reason we got this machinery. The teething problems that we are experiencing will be sorted out.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, could the Hon. Minister specify the time limit when the PPP and the tollgates are going to be introduced.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the PPP will be launched soon. There are projects that have been identified clearly. However, there are three ministries involved in this project, namely; Finance and National Planning, Commerce, Trade and Industry and Works and Supply. The parent ministry of this project is Finance and National Planning. We have been informed that it will not be long before it is launched and all the areas to benefit from this project will receive the information as quickly as possible.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Is the hon. Member for Mpika Central still interested? No. Next question, please.


Hon. Member: Hear, hear!


424. Dr Machungwa asked the Minister of Education when construction of a high school in the Bangweulu Wetlands in Luapula Parliamentary Constituency would start.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Sinyinda) (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Prof Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the ministry’s top priority is the construction of high schools to increase access to education. This year, the Ministry of Education is constructing three high schools in Luapula Province, namely; Milenge in Milenge District, Lukwesa in Mwense District and Ponde in Chiengi District. It has been proposed to construct a high school on Nsamba Island in the Bangweulu Wetlands in Luapula Parliamentary Constituency. This would be done when the resources are made available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education will recall discussing with me this matter relating to the construction of a high school on Nsamba Island. I am now being told the high school will be constructed when funds are made available. I do not know when the funds will be made available. Can the hon. Minister be unequivocal about when the construction of the school will start because the people are losing patience?

Hon. PF Member: Yes!

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, construction work is closely tied to the amount of resources available. Clearly, when resources are made available for the construction of the school on the site that has been identified, the work will commence.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, are there any plans to have this programme extended to constituencies that did not benefit from the construction of new high schools, particularly Munali?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Munali should be thankful because the centre of excellence in special education is going to be constructed in Munali Constituency.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: One high school!

Professor Lungwangwa: That is a fact that she knows about.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, in the 2008 Annual Work Plan, the ministry indicated that it would construct a high school at the Musonda Falls. Can the hon. Minister confirm this because he has not mentioned it?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that has been earmarked for a girl’s technical high school and it is still on course.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Thank you, Mr Speaker …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: … I would like to find out …

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, I apologise to my colleague for interrupting his thoughts, but he was about to sit down, anyway, when you called upon me.

Sir, for two weeks now, I have been trying to workout the rights and wrongs and the dos and don’ts of the business of advertising in the press to congratulate His Excellency the President on his election. From the outset, I must emphasise that I have no problem with His Excellency the President having won the elections and …


Dr Scott: … I have no problem with anybody congratulating him. If a private sector organisation wishes to take up the whole page in a newspaper to congratulate him that, is its money and it is right to do that. However, when public institutions spend public money on advertisements to congratulate a person who is a part of them and that they are a part of, since he is the boss of the Government and they are a part of the Government, …


Dr Scott: … it becomes much more questionable. For example, …


Dr Scott: … in yesterday’s Post newspaper, which, when it does not quote Hon. Sakwiba Sikota the way he wants, it is guilty of genocide …


Dr Scott: … took one third page or two thirds page advertisement from the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) …

Mrs Phiri: No drugs! No drugs!

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, we give that organisation - and it makes the difference between life and death for many people, …

Mrs Phiri: No drugs!

Dr Scott: … funds from the public coffers to do exactly that, and yet here they are trying to make themselves be in good books with His Excellency the President. I am sure His Excellency the President would be more interested in their performance as an indication …


Dr Scott: … of their gratitude than to see a sheet of a paper in black and white.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Scott: For good measure, Mr Speaker, I will also lay on the Table an advertisement by the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), an organisation that is constantly complaining that it needs to raise the charges of the tariffs to be able to conduct its business properly.

Sir, I seek your serious guidance. Is the new hon. Minister of Health in order not to keep control of the UTH and stop it from pilfering public funds in this fashion?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Sir, I honestly beg your guidance on this matter.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: The Hon. Member for Lusaka Central has raised a point of order which I have clearly understood. He is praying for a specific ruling on that point of order. My ruling is that if there is anything financially incorrect in the manner the advertisements he has cited were paid for, there are other organisations of the Government which normally go over that sort of expenditure and if, in their opinion, public funds were wrongly spent on that kind of advertisement, they will so report. As the hon. Member is aware, the Public Accounts Committee is part of the Committees of the National Assembly, and they would also be interested in that kind of activity. In so ruling, I am not saying, at this point, that anybody has committed an offence because the details will later show if that is the case.

Will the hon. Member for Kantanshi who was raising a supplementary question continue, please?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the high school in the wetlands in Nsamba will only be constructed when resources are made available. Can he assure this House and the nation that he is going to include that in the budget for 2009 so that resources will be made available just like he made resources available for the seven schools in Nalikwanda, which is his constituency?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the planning process is going on and the provincial and district staff are making their priorities with regard to what will go in the operational plan for 2009.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


425. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the two bridges leading to Kashiba and Chikubi from Kanshimba in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency would be worked on.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the maintenance of the two bridges leading to Kashiba and Chikubi respectively, have not been included in any of the programmes of the 2008 Annual Work Plan for the Road Development Agency at all. The regional engineer for Luapula Province will liaise with the Mwense District Council to survey the two bridges and plan for their maintenance in the 2009 Annual Work Plan under the road authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, there are many bridges which are in a deplorable state in Luapula Province. What plans does the ministry have for the bridges to be repaired?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is asking about the bridges in Mwense District. Those bridges, as explained, fall under the Mwense District Council and a plan will be made for their maintenance. However, Luapula, as a province, is under the programme of RDA. Therefore, I do not think it will be relevant for me to answer that question because it is not part of the original question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, it is a well known fact that most of the bridges in the country are in a deplorable state. How often are the bridges supposed to be inspected by the office of the Provincial Roads Engineer annually?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, there are many bridges around the country and they are inspected as often as possible. Those that require maintenance are attended to. However, realising that we are a developing country, it is not possible for us to attend to all of them at once, but we will continue to repair those that funds are made available for.

I thank you, Sir.


426. Dr Machungwa asked the Minister of works and supply:

(a) what action the Government had taken against the contractor who worked on the Kafulafuta-Luanshya Road (M6 Road) in 2007 which was washed away several months later; and

(b) what measures the Government had taken to ensure that the situation at (a) above was avoided in future.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the ministry, through the Road Development Agency, has requested the contractor to carry out the patching of potholes that have appeared on the road soon after the works were carried out and completed. The premature failure of the road is largely attributed to the inadequacy in the design that was limited and governed by the available funds. The Luanshya-Kafulafuta Road required reconstruction in most sections and a provision of subsoil drainage, as the road traverses sections of low lying areas. The contractor carried out the works to specifications.

Mr Speaker, the Road Development Agency will ensure that projects are only carried out when sufficient funds are made available to avoid similar occurrences as at (a) above.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Deputy Minister correctly, he stated that the Government was accepting designs of an inferior quality for the repair of the road and that this is not the fault of the contractor. Why were such designs accepted?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the Government, at times, is under pressure to ensure that the road is kept passable with a view, as soon as adequate funds are made available, of doing the whole reconstruction work of the road and this is precisely what happened. It was hoped that the patch work was going to keep the road usable and that at some future date, the work would be revisited.

However, the road gave up much faster than was expected and the Government has acknowledged that this was not the fault of the contractor, but the designs made by the Government because of the inadequacy of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the pressure on the Government should have come from someone within the Government. Originally, the scope of workflow was …

Mr Speaker: Order! Can you ask your question, please?

Mr Mooya: Is the hon. Minister aware that the funding was only for fifteen kilometres of the road and not forty-five kilometres. Someone instructed the contractor to spread that work over a length of forty-five kilometres. Is he aware of this?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I acknowledge that due to pressure, when the contractor saw that the remaining thirty kilometres that was not covered was beginning to give up, they decided to cover the entire forty-five kilometres to keep the road passable. Beyond this, it is mere speculation that this was done in bad faith. The intention was to keep the road passable.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether when a contract is awarded, the contractor is also given the standard road signs to put on the road. This is because on this road in particular, there are strange road signs which we do not understand as Zambians. What is the Government doing about this?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for bringing that to our attention. We will follow it up.

Thank you, Sir.


427. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development:

(a) What the initial purpose of the Commonwealth Youth Credit Initiative Programme for Zambia was;

(b) what the programme at (a) above  has achieved for the nation since inception; and

(c) what criteria were used by the Commonwealth Youth Credit Initiative Programme and its partners to give loans to young people in Zambia.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Mr Speaker, the Commonwealth Youth Credit Initiative (CYCI) was designed as one of the flagships of the CYCI. Its main objective was to empower young men and women with entrepreneurial skills through the provision of credit and business management skills.

The project was designed to be implemented by Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) in four Commonwealth Youth Programme (CYP) regions. These are Africa, Asia, the South Pacific and Latin America on a pilot basis. Zambia was selected for the pilot phase in Africa. The project was then to be replicated in other commonwealth countries in Africa.

Mr Speaker, 1037 loan facilities were extended to 645 young people. Most of the young people benefitted through the acquisition of entrepreneurial skills in trading and service provision. In other words, the beneficiaries of the loan facilities were economically empowered, as this contributed towards poverty alleviation among the targeted vulnerable young people.

Mr Speaker, the fundamental principle to determine who was to benefit from the loan schemes was usually based on low income locations or where the poverty levels were very high among the majority of youths. Basically, the criteria for qualification to the CYCI may be summarised as follows:

(i) primarily, it is meant for young women and men aged fifteen to twenty-nine.

(ii) only members of a group comprising five individuals and have cohesion as well as a sense of purpose are allowed to borrow.

(iii) access to funds is provided regardless of religion, political affiliation, socio-economic status, health status (HIV/AIDS), literacy or disability.

(iv) individual borrowers should have completed an oral or written business plan which demonstrates that proposed business is sustainable and contains terms of repayment.

Usually, the beneficiaries are taken through some training so that they are acquainted with the delivery methodology; and

(v) business activities should be non-exploitative and environmentally sustainable, lawful and not contrary to the principles of the commonwealth embodied in the Harare Declaration of 1991.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister, the youth empowerment programme was well publicised, how publicised was this programme or how is it publicised because people in Zambia do not know about it?

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Mr Speaker, I am surprised that the hon. Member is talking about people not being aware of this programme. I must confirm that it was well publicised and some of the beneficiaries are still there. In fact, we are discussing the possibilities of going to track down some of them in Chilenje, Chawama and two or three other places.

Thank you, Sir.


428. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many albino babies were born in Zambia from 2004 to 2006, year by year; and
(b) whether there was any law to protect albino babies against discrimination and stigma.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, the current Health Management Information System (HMIS) does not capture such information. This can only be captured if a specific survey is carried out.

All human beings are protected by the constitution against any form of discrimination.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, it is not my wish to interrupt your proceedings, but I rise on a very serious point of order. On Thursday, 13th November, 2008, your Committee’s report on Information and Broadcasting Services was brought to the House for debate by Hon. Major Chizhyuka. Some of the hon. Members who debated, in particular, Hon. Munkombwe, the Minister of Southern Province spoke very well. In his debate, Mr Speaker, which I have here and I will lay it on the Table, there was no mention of any particular church in this country.

Mr Speaker, the other hon. Member, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, in his debate said, and I quote:

“The learned hon. Minister of Justice …”

In reference to His Honour the Vice-President.

 “…will, no doubt, support me in the submission I am about to make with regard to the happenings in Rwanda and the tribunals which were held regarding the Rwanda genocide. The hon. Member for Sinda touched upon it and he rightly stated that the media played a very large role in the genocide of more than 800,000 people …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: “… in less than a hundred days. That was more than 8000 people being massacred per day. That calls for us to have sober reflection. Is that what we would like to happen in Zambia? To have more than 8000 people per day massacred, little babies thrown into pit latrines and people hiding in churches where petrol is then splashed all over them and set blaze? To have people massacred with pangas, axes and hoes?

“Those are the things we need to soberly reflect on even as we sit in this House. Currently, there are more than twenty-five journalists who have been convicted by the Rwanda International Tribunal. That shows you the kind of effect that they had on the genocide because that is a large number. They have been convicted for various terms ranging from fifteen years to life because of the gravity of what they did.

“It is not only people from the press, but priests have also been convicted in the Rwanda Genocide as some of the lead causes for that terrible and dark part of our history in Africa.

“Mr Speaker, it is sad that at this particular time, some people seem to believe that it is permissible to go on radio to incite people into violence.

“There is a priest in Rwanda by the name of Atanaze Seromba from the Catholic Church. Father Atanaze Seromba went on radio and told people to rise up get violent. He was arrested. Nobody said that it was wrong to arrest him. In fact, he was not tried by just a simple court, but an international tribunal. This priest who went on radio inciting violence was tried, given all the opportunity to defend himself, but was convicted and sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for his acts. At the moment, he is still in prison because of those irresponsible acts.

“It is not, like I said, a game of blame. I am not going to point any fingers in any direction. I am just going to ask for each one of us, the media, the editors, the priests, the citizens, the politicians, the leaders and everyone to really search our consciences. We must ensure that what happened in Rwanda does not come to visit us.”

Mr Speaker, is it in order for the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze to insult a fellow hon. Member of Parliament over a statement that was made when the Hon. Mwiimbu was not even in the House?

On the other hand, in the newspaper of Tuesday, 18th November, 2008 it is reported …

Mr Ntundu: Which paper?

Mr Sichilima: The Post newspaper …

Mr Ntundu: Ala!


Mr Sichilima: … which is unpatriotic and the headline is, “Government must apologise to Catholics over Munkombwe’s remarks – Mwiimbu”, and I quote:

“Government must apologise to the Catholic Church over Daniel Munkombwe’s irresponsible remarks that the church leaders are being arrested for being political agents of genocide, Monze Central UPND member of parliament Jack Mwiimbu has demanded.

“And the Zambia Episcopal Conference (ZEC) has said, suggesting that the Catholic Church and the media in Rwanda were responsible for the tragic genocide in that country is tantamount to deliberately distorting history.

“Commenting on Southern Province Minister Munkombwe’s statement that church leaders were being arrested because they were becoming agents of political genocide, Mwiimbu charged that it was foolish and irresponsible for Munkombwe to allege that the Catholic Church could cause genocide in Zambia.

“‘To be frank, it is utterly foolish and irresponsible for Munkombwe to make such a statement against the Catholic Church. Any sane leader cannot allow such a statement to escape his lips. The Catholic Church is a partner and champion of democracy and cannot be an agent of genocide. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church, most educated Zambians would not be making such careless statements,’ Mwiimbu said.”

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, Hon. Kambwili, on Monday, 17th November, 2008, is also reported to have said in The Post newspaper under the headline, “Attacks on The Post are an act of stupidity – PF MP”, and I quote:

“Attacks on The Post are an act of stupidity, Roan member of parliament Chishimba Kambwili has charged.

“And Kambwili has strongly condemned the removal of Ng’andu Magande from Cabinet.

“In an interview yesterday, Kambwili said attacks on the private newspaper were not only stupid but irregular.

“Kambwili said it was very sad that during elections, UPND wanted to behave like an opposition party, but became allies of the MMD when elections were over.

“He added that UPND did not mean well when it accused PF of having paid The Post for favourable coverage during the elections.

“‘Even in Parliament, what comes out of the mouth of the Bemba is poison. That is how bad this political party is. The only true opposition political party is PF. FDD, UPND and UNIP are all MMD,’ Kambwili said.”

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, he went on to say:

“… it was unfortunate that some UPND Members of Parliament accused The Post of having failed to give the adequate coverage during the just-ended presidential elections.

“‘Everyone was covered by The Post, the problem the UPND has is that the party is just too tribal. This is why the proposed pact between UPND and PF failed because some UPND members said they never wanted to be ruled by a Bemba,’ he said.”

Mr Speaker, on the other hand, if the UPND is tribal and PF is not, why did the PF members jeer Dr Fredrick Chiluba for supporting President Rupiah Banda?




This, again, was reported in The Post newspaper, on Friday, 7th November, 2008. The headline is: “‘Iwe kakabwalala akepi bushe nga walikele President nga ba Kaunda bali Rigging’a.’ PF cadres jeer Chiluba.”

Mr Speaker, I am the most senior Member of Parliament, having been here for seven years. You have guided us in this House, many times, not to debate matters of this House outside the House, …


Mr Sichilima: … where Members of this House start insulting fellow Members of Parliament. Is this going to be the tradition? Sir, I need your serious ruling because members of the public will lose confidence in your House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government/UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of His Honour the Vice-President has raised a very long point of order covering, at least, three subjects.

The first one is that a wrong debater was said to have accused the Catholic Church of promoting genocide elsewhere. On this particular point of order, my guidance is that hon. Members of Parliament must be very careful with their facts. In the profession known as journalism, though some of you think it is a calling, it is not, because it is a profession, if you wrongly attribute a story to a different person, that is a very serious offence. It does not matter whether the person making the wrong attribution is a journalist or not, it is still wrong to blame a different person as if such a person were blame worthy.

According to the hon. Deputy Minister, Hon. Munkombwe’s debate did not refer to any church. I have not had an opportunity to study his speech in detail, but I note that the hon. Deputy Minister believes he has done so and he claims that the hon. Deputy Minister did not refer to a church as being a participant elsewhere in the genocide.

The second part of the point of order refers to two hon. Members of Parliament taking matters which were discussed in this House and debating them outside. I have guided here many times before that hon. Members of Parliament have the freedom to speak here under the protection of the Constitution and other rules of debate which are in the position of the hon. Members of Parliament. I have warned that if you take debate from this House outside, and then you commit an offence out there, you cannot plead privilege. You will have no access to the kind of privilege or protection that this House offers to you if you had said those things in the House. In any case, if you committed an offence by saying the wrong things, this House has the authority to try and convict you in the manner you all know.

Hon. Government/UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Therefore, hon. Members, do not debate matters that are for this House outside the House or vice versa. Do not debate things out there and then transport them to this House for whatever reason you may be doing so, it is still improper, unprocedural and dangerous.

I understand the utterance to the hon. Member for Monze. He was not even in the House. I do not know how he was then able to pick up the information on the debate and comfortably refer to things which took place in the House when he was not there. Well, I emphasise, that debate took place outside the House, if anybody feels offended, they know what to do on such matters.

The other issues referring to the hon. Member for Roan (Hon. Kambwili), including the threats by certain people on the person of the former President, those incidents took place outside the House and it is not really for the Chair to deal with them. If anybody who was affected wishes to take further action, they will be free to do so. However, I emphasise, hon. Members, do not transport issues which are meant for this House and debate them outside and vice-versa. Do not do that because you are going to get yourselves into a lot of trouble. This House cannot protect you if you make mistakes or even break the law in the process of debating matters outside the House. You have no protection.

I do not know whether that paper has been laid on the Table or not?

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mr Speaker: Well, we have taken note of the point of order, but I have sufficiently guided the House. Therefore, leave things the way they are.

The hon. Member for Kantanshi was making a follow up, may he continue, please.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, forty-four years after independence, there is still no data on albinos. I would like to find out what the Government is doing to ensure that albinos who are citizens of the land are protected from the ritual killings that are taking place in neighbouring countries so that this does not spill over to this country?

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, albinos are regarded as normal human beings in Zambia. For this reason, once an albino is born, he or she is not considered extraordinary. That person is considered normal. However, as a result of what has been going on elsewhere, special attention might be required to see to it that the occurrences that are in other countries do not spill over to this country. As far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, albinos are given the same attention given to any other baby or person. There is no discrimination at all.

Therefore, I will take it that, if the question relates to protecting their lives, this will have to be under the Ministry of Home Affairs and not the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that albinos, as far as we are concerned, are abnormal in the sense that there is something wrong with their pigmentation. Their sight has also been affected and therefore, they cannot be equated to normal people.

Hon. MMD Members: Ah!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, if we want to look at issues that way, it becomes very difficult to determine who is an albino because the degree of pigmentation varies. It is very easy to mistake any person as an albino. As far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, we do not regard less pigmentation in anyone’s skin as abnormal.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


429. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Commerce Trade and Industry when the Government would effect measures which would ensure that raw materials such as copper, nickel, emeralds and cotton seed are locally processed into secondary products.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga) (on behalf of the Minister of Commerce Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, the Government has been implementing measures that promote and encourage value addition to local products. These measures are on going.

The Government, through the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, embarked on policy reforms of improving Zambia’s business climate through the Private Sector Development Programme to make business in Zambia more favourable and cost effective. It is in this connection that Zambia has received an overwhelming response from investors both within and abroad who are planning to set up companies and value- addition factories in the country.

Mr Speaker, through the Triangle of Hope Initiative that the Government embarked upon in 2006, the Government is in the process of developing three Multi-facility Economic Zones (MFEZs). It is expected that once the MFEZs are fully operational, a number of value-addition activities would be undertaken, especially in the processing of copper ore and cathodes into finished products.

Furthermore, Sir, in the spirit of attracting value-adding equipment, the Government, through the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) Act exempts custom duty to machinery and capital equipment importation. In addition, any machinery and equipment acquired by rural enterprises is also exempted from paying customs duties.

Mr Speaker, the Government has also put in place export duties to discourage export of products i.e. cotton seed, copper ores and concentrates and unrefined copper. All these attract export duties of 15 per cent, whereas copper, aluminum, zinc, ferrous waste and scrap and ingots of iron and steel attract 25 per cent.

Finally, in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), the Government encourages value-addition activities of primary exports as a means of increasing national export earnings and creating employment opportunities.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


430.  Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) what the cause of the delay in constructing an international bridge across the Zambezi River at Kazungula was;

 (b) how many countries were involved in the construction of the bridge;

(c) what the financial contribution of each country towards the above project was; and

(d) whether the one stop customs and immigration system would be provided and, if so, which country would host it. 

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the delay to commence the construction of the Kazungula Bridge is related to the delay in procuring the consultancy. The contract with a preferred consultant could not be signed in February this year because one of the former parties to the bridge had not secured finances for studies for their side of the border because they did not get a grant from the African Development Bank. However, the commencement of the implementation of the Feasibility and Detailed Engineering Study for the construction of the Kazungula Bridge was signed on July 23rd, 2008, between the Governments of Botswana and the Republic of Zambia. This marks the start and the study will last thirteen months, starting from 22nd September, 2008.

Mr Speaker, in accordance with the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) signed on 23rd July, 2008, two countries are involved in the construction of the Kazungula Bridge and these are Botswana and Zambia.

Sir, according to the MOU signed on 28th July, 2008, parties will make equal contributions towards all costs of the design and construction of the bridge and the border control facilities.

The concept of a one-stop border system has been incorporated in the design of the Kazungula Bridge. The border facilities will be constructed on both the Zambian well as the Botswana side.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, the time lag between the planning and the implementation period has been long. Can the hon. Minister explain the deficit arising from the actual budget and the current cost?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, problems arose because initially, there were only two parties, namely; Zambia and Botswana, but then Zimbabwe came up to join. However, the African Development Bank (ADB), which was providing the resources for the feasibility study, had not budgeted for the Zimbabwean participation.

Therefore, this created a problem and the countries involved had to start discussions all over, again. Finally, it was decided that the bridge was going to pass through the Namibian waters of the Zambezi River into Zambia. This meant that they were going to exclude the Zimbabwean part. They proceeded and the feasibility study will take about thirteen months. Thereafter, construction of the bridge will start. We all appreciate that this is not a simple project. It is a costly and complicated project which must be done carefully.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, why was Zimbabwe not assisted to get a loan since that crossing would have been cheaper?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the politics involved in releasing funds from the ADB and elsewhere are internal to the institution. Like I said, when the original plan was started, Zimbabwe was not part of the programme. When they came on board, they insisted that the path where the bridge was to be constructed was on the Zimbabwean waters. It became appropriate, at the time, to accommodate them, but by that time, the ADB had already decided to allocate funds to Zambia and Botswana. After talking to them about the Zimbabwean issue, they were unwilling to assist. In the process, a decision had to be made to proceed with the project between Zambia and Botswana. However, the Zimbabwean Government is also preparing facilities to accommodate the increased traffic arising from this project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Minister correctly, the bridge has now moved to the Namibian side. Does this mean that Namibia is using its own money? Are we going to start negotiating, again, with the ADB to give a loan to Namibia? I think this feasibility study has been going on for seven years now. When will the construction of bridge commence?

Mr Mulongoti: We are at the stage of feasibility studies. Like I said earlier, it is a costly and complex project. It is not like constructing a bridge over a small stream. We are using the Namibian waters because we are crossing through the Zambezi River. After the report for the feasibility study has been submitted and accepted, the construction will begin. I have not indicated that the Namibians would want to be paid anything. All we are saying is that, instead of using the Zimbabwean part of the Zambezi River, we are now using the part of the river which passes through Namibia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika): Mr Speaker, in a related situation, could the hon. Minister inform this august House when construction of the Mbesuma Bridge on the Chambeshi River in Chinsali will commence.

Mr Speaker: Quite clearly, there is no relationship between the question on the Order Paper and the follow-up question from the hon. Member for Mpika.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi-West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that one of the reasons the project has delayed is that a consultant has not been found yet. I would like to find out why the ministry has failed to find a consultant when there are so many of them in this part of the region.

Mr Speaker: Could the hon. Member check his pockets. He has something in his pockets. Can you witch it off, please?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I do not recall saying that we had not found a consultant. I said the reason for the delay was that, in the initial discussions, there were only two countries involved, Zambia and Botswana. At a later stage, Zimbabwe came on board. However, for them to conduct a feasibility study, they required assistance from the ADB which was funding the feasibility studies for both Zambia and Botswana. When Zimbabwe approached went the ADB, the bank was unwilling to release funds to assist them. Thereafter, Zimbabwe could not proceed and co-operate on that basis. They felt that they needed assistance from the ADB. In the process, the two governments, Zambia and Botswana, had to go back to the table and agree to proceed on their own, but they had to find another way of proceeding, avoiding the waters of Zimbabwe. This is how Namibia agreed that we can use their waters for the feasibility study to be conducted.

Therefore, it is not just a question of not finding a consultant, but also funding and the complication of the third country.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}




Ms Chitika (Kawambwa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for the Second Session of the Tenth Nation Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 11th November, 2008.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Misapa (Mporokoso): Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Ms Chitika: Mr Speaker, your Committee are guided by the terms of reference as set out in the National Assembly Standing Orders.

Sir, going by their terms of reference, your Committee considered five topical issues and the Action Taken Report on the previous Committee’s report for 2007. They also undertook local tours during the year under review. It is my belief that hon. Members of Parliament have read through the report. As such, I will be brief.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, let me register my appreciation to all members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to the work of your Committee. I also wish to thank all the permanent secretaries and all other stakeholders who spared their valuable time to submit to your Committee on the various issues that were deliberated upon.

Sir, you Committee would also like to express their appreciation to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the invaluable and tireless assistance rendered throughout their deliberations.

Mr Speaker, let me now discuss the report itself.

Operations of Defence and Security Wings vis-à-vis Information Technologies: New Tools and Challenges in Zambia

Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to observe, with dismay, that the defence and security wings were not consulted when the Information Communication Technology (ITC) Policy, the ITC Bill and the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bills were being drafted. All these instruments are aimed at addressing the security concerns posed by ICTs.

Having examined the ICT Policy, your Committee are of the strong view that the 13th chapter of the policy ought to be reviewed in order to address some of the security concerns. They also wish to urge the various stakeholders to consult among themselves in order to address the concerns in the two Draft Bills referred to above before presentation to Parliament.

Furthermore, Sir, the Ministry of Defence should endeavour to review the current Defence Policy in order to address the challenges posed by the ITCs so that it is not in conflict with the national ITC Policy.

Mr Speaker, your Committee appreciate that investment in ICTs in the defence and security wings is an expensive venture. However, they believe that the Government should seriously consider investing in the ICT industry for the Zambian defence and security wings to be in tandem with modern world dictates in the military.

Operations of the Zambia Mine Action Centre (ZMAC)

Sir, your Committee are dismayed that inadequate funding was the major factor slowing down the de-mining exercise in Zambia to meet the set deadline of 2011 to clear all landmines in the country. We, therefore, recommend that a total of K6 billion be budgeted for in the next three years, starting from 2009 to enable Zambia meet all the targets in the clearance of landmines.

Zimbabwean Crisis

Mr Speaker, let me state that your Committee are happy that the Government of Zimbabwe and the Opposition have agreed to form a Government of National Unity to solve the political impasse which has arisen after the elections in their country. They urge the people of Zimbabwe to ensure that they give a chance to their new Government of national unity to succeed.

Local Tours (Chavuma-Chingi Border Post)

Sir, your Committee undertook local tours to border areas, namely; Kasumbalesa, Kipushi, Jimbe and Chavuma. From the findings outlined in the report, your Committee urge the Government to provide the border posts with electricity generators and water pumps. They also implore the Government to rehabilitate the office and residential accommodation in those areas. In particular, your Committee call for the provision of a district police station in Chavuma District. There is also a need to provide 4 x 4 vehicles and other communication facilities both at the police station and the border post.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are particularly concerned about the unmanned long and porous border on the west bank of the Zambezi River. The beacons on the border have become invisible due to the lack of vegetation control. There is a need to provide enough security personnel to patrol this border.

Sir, another matter of concern is the threat to internal security caused by the presence of Karavinas in the area. We wish to implore the Government to set up village security committees to help address the situation.

Your Committee were informed that sixteen victims of landmines are reported to be in Chavuma District. However, your Committee only managed to visit two victims of landmines who were in Chingi Village at the time of the tour. Your Committee are concerned that no support is rendered to landmine victims by the Zambia Mine Action Centre (ZMAC) despite the existence of a programme for such support from bilateral and multilateral organisations

We believe that the Government can do more to assist its citizens who find themselves in such predicaments.

Sir, in conclusion, let me, once again, thank you for according me this opportunity to present your Committee’s Report for 2008.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


The Deputy Chairperson: Before business was suspended, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa had just finished giving her speech on the Motion to adopt the report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly.

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Misapa: Mr Speaker, now.

Sir, in seconding the Motion which has been ably moved, I wish to touch on just a few areas which were not highlighted by the mover.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observe that the main operational constraint of the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) is inadequate funding which is tied to the Ministry of Home Affairs’ Budgetary Ceiling. Further, they observe that strategies to address some of the constraints are contained in the revised Drug Enforcement Commission Strategic Plan.

Sir, your Committee, recommend that DEC be funded directly and independently to make it more autonomous as is the case with the Zambia Police Force.  This funding arrangement would help enhance its operations, as it would not be tied to the Ministry of Home Affairs’ Budget and Budgetary Ceiling. However, there is a need to have in place mechanisms for the controlling officer to provide checks and balances on the commission’s operations.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observe that ZMAC received about US$500,000 from bilateral and multilateral organisations to undertake some of its activities. Your Committee, therefore, urge ZMAC to urgently undertake an impact survey of landmines in Zambia from the US$500,000. The other funds amounting to US$200,000 for victim assistance and mine risk education for 2007/8, also from bilateral and multilateral organisations, should filter through to landmine victims.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observe that the Sudan’s political landscape had been characterised by instability since 1956 and that several ceasefire and peace agreements entered into between the Government and the warring factions to solve the conflict have not been successful.

Your Committee urge the Sudanese Government to respect the agreement of 2007 by guaranteeing smooth passage and operations of the UN Hybrid Peace-Keeping Force in the Darfur Region. This is in view of the agreement with the UN Security Council in 2007 to deploy an international peace-keeping force of 26,000 uniformed men and women supported by other humanitarian aid agencies to Darfur following the failure by the Africa Union (AU) Peace-Keeping Forces to contain the Darfur crisis.

Mr Speaker, further, your Committee commend the Government of Zambia for its role in trying to find a lasting peaceful settlement to the conflict in the Sudan through her participation in the AU and the UN peace-keeping forces.

Mr Speaker, though your Committee are concerned about the post election violence in Kenya, they are happy to note that some solution has been found to the Kenyan crisis through the establishment of a National Unity Government with the support of the African Union and the international community. Your Committee wish to commend the people of Kenya for agreeing to end the electoral crisis that had engulfed the country.

Mr Speaker, your Committee note your delegation’s recommendations from the second meeting of parliamentarians of the Great Lakes Region. They urge the Government to ratify the pact on security, stability and development. They also urge the Government to identify an eminent Zambian to be nominated as a member of the establishment of seven African Peer Review (APR) panel of eminent persons. This would be in recognition of Zambia’s efforts to finding lasting peace in the region.

Sir, your Committee are happy that Zambia has identified premises to house the regional centre on democracy, good governance, human rights and civic education and has paid her contribution to the special fund for development and reconstruction.

Mr Speaker, with these remarks, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to, firstly, commend the mover of the Motion, the very progressive hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa, and also seconded by yet another progressive hon. Member of Parliament.

Sir, one would say, in brief, that this is a telling report which should be supported by all of us. Having said that, allow me to salute our men and women in uniform, that is the defence and security wing for maintaining peace in this country for forty-four years now. This is not a minor achievement on their part. While we enjoy our beautiful sleep at night, they are busy looking after us, including our properties. We are proud of them. Therefore, in showing our commitment to their cause and also trying to acknowledge the achievements that they have made on behalf of Zambians, I would like to call upon the Government of the day to improve their conditions of service comprehensively. This is one way of appreciating the good work that our defence and security officers have been doing and have continue doing for this country.

Mr Speaker, as we prepare the budget for next year, it is important that we consider making improvements in the manner we prepare budgets for our defence and security wings. We have noted in the report that our security wings lack mobility and a lot of other facilities to make them efficient in their work. The observations made on the DEC, police and many other security organisations should be taken into account so that all these problems can be effectively addressed. It is only those who prepare budgets who can give a lot of money to this wing. That is why I am happy with the appointment of the new hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: He has a lot of experience. Although he has never been a politician, he is a professional in his own right. He is a person who understands how to prepare the budget and how best we can assist our security wings. Therefore, in welcoming Hon. Dr Musokotwane to that important position, I expect him to put in the budget a lot of money to support our defence and security wings. Our men and women in uniform have done a lot for this country. We would like to continue supporting them. Let us address their needs in terms of their salaries, vehicles and equipment so that they can compete favourably with their colleagues within the region and beyond.

Mr Speaker, when you look at, the Zambia National Service (ZNS), for instance, it has the potential to produce a lot of food for this country. However, because of inadequate funding and lack of farming equipment such as tractors, they have been found wanting in their performance. There is a need, therefore, to commit a lot of financial resources to ZNS so that they can eliminate hunger in this country once and for all.

Mr Speaker, you will recall that sometime back, ZNS used to produce a lot of food. They reared chickens and animals. They even used to produce cotton. However, their performance has gone down simply because the Government has withdrawn its support to this institution. I would like to urge the Government of the day to support this institution.

Mr Speaker, another institution that needs support is the Prisons Department. This department also has the potential to generate a lot of revenue for this country. It can grow a lot of food and feed prisoners without going to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to ask for money to buy food for prisoners. Prisoners can grow a lot of food on their own. The department must be reorganised and supported financially so that it grows a lot of food for this country.

Mr Speaker, the plight of envoys in our missions abroad has been debated in this House several times. We have spoken about late funding, residential and office accommodation to mention but a few. I would not like to draw you, Mr Speaker, into my debate but would like to mention that you were once a diplomat and you were exposed to the same weaknesses.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! You are already drawing the Chair into your debate. Can you make your argument without mentioning the Chair?

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, the point I am trying to emphasise is that we should not turn Zambians who are representing us ably into destitute. Zambian envoys will never be respected when their colleagues are earning a long of money, can move from one place to the other without difficulty and have a lot of facilities. Let us look into the plight of our envoys. Otherwise, there is no need for us to be appointing high commissioners and ambassadors we cannot look after them properly. It is embarrassing to see the roofs of some of our chanceries leak during the rainy season. Our envoys are forced to shift their belongings from one corner to the other. This is shameful. We have to address this problem.

Sir, I would also like to acknowledge the critical areas that your report has highlighted with regard to the conflicts in a number of countries. I would like to ask what lesson we can learn, as Zambia, from all these conflicts in the region and beyond. The lesson we can learn is that the moment there is a conflict in our country, the lives of so many people are disturbed. Property will be damaged and so on and so forth. I would like to appeal to those who believe in fanning trouble to look at what is happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).…

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … and, also, in Zimbabwe.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, violence has no choice because even those who invite violence and who are known ring leaders are also caught up in the same mess.

 Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You maybe a politician, a journalist, or reverend, but you can be affected because violence has no boundary.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: It does not discriminate. Any careless talk can invite trouble in your own country. I would not like to see my family affected. I would not like to see what Zambians have yielded for forty-four years go to worst. I will be the first to stand up and defend Zambia if this happened.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, those who are trying to accuse the Republican President of being intolerant must question themselves. Is he being intolerant by trying to safeguard the peace of this country? That is the question they should ask themselves. The Head of State has been mandated to implement the Constitution to the latter. In fact, when he took oath on the Parliament grounds, he assured the people of Zambian that he would protect and defend the Constitution of Zambia as by law established.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: The arrivals who have just taken oath, have repeated the same message. Therefore, what can stop the Head of State from protecting and defending the Constitution on behalf of all Zambians? Who would like to see Zambians abandon their homes and suffer? This is unacceptable. Let us learn a lesson from what is happening in other countries and check against all these weaknesses that may fan violence.

Sir, some people are good at inciting violence, and yet they do not look at its consequences. The moment you insight violence, as I said, you will be the first person to be caught up in that violence. As for those who are claiming that the police, the defence forces including nurses, are on their side, let me remind them that a police officer cannot be their friend. I have to emphasise that point. A police officer cannot be their friend. If you are pretending that you won the police and other security wings and nurses over, I can assure you that those people believe in orders.

For example, what happened in Kitwe is a lesson to those who claimed that they owned police officers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Kasongo: I worked in the ministry and I am speaking with authority. Do not disturb people and officers who have tried so hard to keep peace and stability in this country.

Mr Speaker, you are aware that peace is an ingredient that you can use to achieve a lot of things, economically and socially. When you are at war, you cannot even plan for the roads and the hospitals that you are talking about. Therefore, if you are a credible leader and you want to come and rule this country, we expect you to use the language of a democrat.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, we urge those of you who would like to shorten your ladder to State House to use a democratic process.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Do not make shortcuts because we are not going to accept that.

Mr Speaker, as long as I continue representing the people of Bangweulu Constituency, I will not depart from that kind of commitment.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo:  I treasure peace and I would like everybody to treasure this peace. It is a rear commodity. Once it slips out of your hands, it will very difficult for you to stabilise your country.

Mr Speaker, let me end my debate by appealing to those who would like to incite people to rise against the legitimate Government to wait for their time.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, in my view, 2001 is around the corner.


Mr Kasongo: If you are a democrat and you know that you are popular, you try your luck in 2001.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: As for now, you should allow those people who have been given the mandate to implement their programme peacefully. That is all I can say.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I would like to urge the Government of the day not to listen to those who are trying to say that any action that you are going to take against the perpetrators of violence is tantamount to intolerance, no. I need to be protected. My mother is over eighty years old and she also needs to be protected.

 Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Whence does she go to? To be thrown in the waters of the Lake Bangweulu just because of someone’s careless utterances, no. When you commit a crime, do not use mob psychology expecting other people to …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please listen, particularly those of you on my right. You are now talking to somebody on my left. Let us, please, consult quietly and listen to the Member on the Floor.

Can the hon. Member on the Floor continue, please.

Mr Kasongo: As for my colleagues who believe in fanning violence, my advice to them is that they should not use mob psychology because they will be arrested alone …


Mr Kasongo: ... and their families will suffer. Even the people surrounding them and are saying that they are doing fine, will scatter.

Hon. Members: Run away!

Mr Kasongo: That is when they will appreciate that they have committed a crime alone and are going to suffer alone.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Like Chiluba, F. T. J!

Mr Kasongo: Let us learn a lesson from what is happening in the Sudan, Congo and many other countries. We need peace in this country. That is why we are respected as Zambians because we have defended our Constitution to the latter.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I will stand up in this House, including other patriots to defend our Constitution.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate. I will pick the debate from where my colleague left it and I thank him for his very dedicated statement on peace and the fact that once peace is destroyed it is difficult to recapture it.

I am grateful for a number of reasons. I think there are many in this House who are children of former freedom fighters who know the pain of having a father in detention while they are at home alone and do not know when he is coming back. I know there are many here who live on borders who see our friends across other countries running with their katundus or luggage on their heads every so often. The running never ends.

People in the North-Western Province have witnessed such movements. In the Western Province too they have witnessed such movements. In Luapula, including the Copperbelt, we have witnessed such movements, and yet all these years, we have been a plateau of peace. It has not been easy. It has come as a result of dedicated leadership. Leadership at the time of President Kaunda, at the time of President Chiluba, at the time of President Mwanawasa …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … and we would like to continue enjoying a dedicated leadership under the able hands of President Banda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Sir, before I proceed, I would like to congratulate my colleagues who have come on the Front Bench. Congratulations ladies and gentlemen!

Hon. Members of the Front Bench: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Thank you.

We need this team to work with the rest of our fellow Zambians to assure us peace, this very delicate commodity. It does not take away from your aspirations and dreams if you commit yourself to the concept of peace. Peace means doing something faithfully and honestly. Peace does not require double speech, where in one breath you facilitate or incite violence while in the other, you quietly look away when violence is being visited on other people.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: That is hypocrisy! That is not right! Leaders must be committed to live by their word. When they say, “No violence” they should mean, “No violence”. You cannot in one breath say, “I will not support anybody creating disturbances of violence” but at the same time, quietly sponsor young men to create problems.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I think it is important that we become dedicated, responsible and accountable leaders who live by their word.

Where I come from,, it is not very near here, it is 1,200 kilometres away, the guns are looming on the other side of the border. The sounds of war are already reaching our ears. There is Laurent Kunda there causing havoc in the eastern Congo. We will soon have more refugees. Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, please, prepare for more refugees. Hon. Kalombo Mwansa comes from Chienge. He must know that soon we will have more refugees.

Zambia must understand that it is a terrible experience to run around. When my father was chased by the colonialists, my aunt had to carry me to hide in the bush. They looked for my father and detained him during Chachacha.

Mr Shakafuswa: Emphasise that point!

Dr Kalumba: I do not want to go through that, again. I had been in the bush on my own for three months.


Dr Kalumba: It is not a good experience.


Dr Kalumba: It is a very challenging experience of survival.


Dr Kalumba: I do not know how many of my colleagues can survive in the bush alone for three months.


Mr Shakafuswa: They would die.

Dr Kalumba: For the ordinary small person with limited survival skills, it means death. The killing fields of the Congo mean death. What is happening in there should never, ever happen in Zambia.

In 1981, I went to the North-Western Province when there was that very difficult and delicate situation. Mr Speaker, it was an anxiety-provoking moment. I was conducting some research on the health of refugees and the provision of health services. It was a difficult time. Our people were living in fear all the time. We do not want any single Zambian to live in fear simply because someone wants to achieve their political ambition.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, my colleague, Eric Silwamba and I chaired the Congo Peace Process here in Lusaka. When war breaks out and people have smelt blood on their hands, the reasoning becomes very complicated. It is difficult to reach a consensus to bring peace again and that is what is happening in the Congo.

Your Committee’s report, which has touched on a number of areas, must stress this Congo issue. We must work up to it as Zambia. I hope our ministries of Foreign Affairs, Defence and Home Affairs are listening. We have to be awake to the fact that the outbreak of war in the eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo is something that we should be concerned about. We should prepare ourselves because if anything, that side goes wrong, things on the northern side can go wrong too.

This means, like my colleague said earlier, the army must be financed. Peace is not cheap. We need to look after the young men and women who sacrifice their lives to fight for Zambia. We must provide the necessary equipment for them to do their job.

When they are in their cantons and do not have food, they get restless. When they have inadequate ammunitions they get restless too. We cannot afford to have leisure camps for the army on the borders. We need serious cantons, especially when war breaks out. That is we will see people from the DRC running across the border with guns. I have seen this before in my own constituency. Zambia Army must be there ready to disarm them. Our army cannot disarm them if they only have AK47 when those crossing the border into our country have bazookas or machine guns. Therefore, let us take the issue of the clashes in the Congo DR as our own, please.

By the way, I do not understand our thinking. Mr Speaker, for anything that happens south, west and east of Zambia, we are preoccupied. If we think what is happening in the Congo is something to do with the native savages, we are wrong. The Congo DR is close to our interest in Zambia. Three quarters of hon. Members in this Honourable House come from the Congo DR.

Hon. Member: No!

Hon. Female Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Consequently, we have more in common with the Congo DR than we have with most of our neighbouring countries. Therefore, we have a stake in sharing peace in the Congo DR. We have to work for peace in the Congo DR by being active players in preventing the violence in the Congo DR from becoming our violence.

We are not good at fighting wars, but we are good at diplomacy. Give diplomacy a good chance by making sure the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is on his feet. There is no time to waste. He should not even be here. He should be in the Great Lakes Region listening to his colleagues on what is happening there. We need to know what is going on. Is that gentleman or whatever he is, Commander Laurent Kabila …

Hon. Members: Nkunda!

Dr Kalumba: … Laurent Nkunda, I beg your pardon, is he going to continue with his escapades in the Congo DR each time he runs out of money? It is about time the international community stopped such people. We do not want warlords in the Congo DR because warlords such as Nkunda, can easily translate into warlords here. They have become models and we can imitate them. Imagine having a Ngoni warlord?

Hon. Female Member: On a point of order, Sir.


Dr Kalumba: This will be a female warlord.


Dr Kalumba: The culture of warlords is something we have heard about from Somalia and elsewhere, but too close to home is not comfortable. Let us get engaged in the conflict in the Congo DR. We should make sure that we play our usual constructive role of creating peace in the Congo DR. Lusaka Town has been a popular place for signatures for peace.

Mr Speaker, we have a seasoned diplomat in the State House who was once at the United Nations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: He singularly qualifies to be a facilitator for peace. If this cabinet can walk the talk with him as they say on this matter, I know he can become a real key player where they do not have to go a thousand kilometres away to get a mediator. We understand the Congo DR because we are closer to it and we know what the people go through and we have a stake in it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Good! Thank you, Mr Speaker. Good!


Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very important Motion on the Floor of this House.

Firstly, I would like to congratulate the mover of the Motion on a perfect presentation. For such, in good politics, we say, ‘Well done!’ Mr Speaker, at the moment, we have a problem in this country which partly due to some green horns in this august House. There are some green horns in this House that do not understand the importance of harmony and peace.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, they think burning stalls for vendors in the compounds is the correct way of claiming a lost election. That is wrong. If you lose an election, you have lost it and accept defeat and congratulate the winner.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I would like, to start by congratulating Brigadier General Miyanda on having stood up as a national leader …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I just want to make sure that you are relating your issue to the report. Otherwise, you have digressed a little. So, link it with the report.

Will the hon. Member continue, please?

Mr Muyanda: I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, my debate will be confined to national security.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: In the interest of national security, Brigadier General Miyanda, who was one of the presidential candidates, conceded defeat and thanked the people of Zambia gracefully. I congratulate him on this. I wish to congratulate the UPND President, Hakainde Hichilema, a brilliant young man, whose future is placed in his hands, on having accepted the results gracefully.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: That is the type of leadership Zambians should understand in the context of national security.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, some people with illusions say there is tension in this country. Where is the tension? One presidential candidate, who is over ambitious to be president, forgets that to have national security, we need harmony and order.

Mr D. Mwila: Awe!

Mr Muyanda: You are a green horn. Keep quite and listen to us since you were not there when liberation wars were fought.


Mr Muyanda: We saw the war in during the liberation of Zimbabwe. The Zimbabwe People’s Liberation Army (ZIPRA) forces used to pass through our homes and we supplied them logistics. You do not know the sound of an AK47, that is why you can insight marketeers to burn their own stalls. This is wrong.


Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I would like to mention one word and clear this notion in the interest of national security. Zambia needs harmony and peace because it is precious. We are not going to allow some newspapers to insight peaceful Zambians.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Where is the tension in this country? Just because their surrogate leader did not win an election, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … today, they say there is tension Lusaka and on the Copperbelt. Where is the tension, and what is the definition of tension? If your presidential candidate has lost the elections, gracefully accept that he has lost.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I would also like to congratulate the former leader of Government Business in this House, His Excellency the President Mr Banda, who won the elections and the game is over. In all fairness, we congratulate him.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: In the interest of national security - …


Mr Muyanda: … - I still have time. Mr Speaker, seven years in this august House permits me to guide the green horns.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: War brings no peace in the country, and internal turmoil does not develop a country. Once there is internal civil strife, there are no winners and no parliamentarians. There is total chaos. Do we really need that?

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, what this nation needs is food and not organised tension perceived by one newspaper. Where is the tension? We do not want to hear about this tension anymore. We want to hear that Zambia is now moving forward and when we say, ‘Zambia forward’, we mean well.


Mr Muyanda: We are matching forward and not backwards. Where do you find a snake biting its tail? Sir, there is no snake that bites its tail. A poisonous snake knows that no snake rules because it knows it carries dangerous venom.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, in the interest of national security, which the hon. Member competently and ably tabled before this House, I will, one of these days, move a motion on the issue of tribalism which should be  buried and forgotten.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: It is you who does that.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, the word tribalism, in essence, should be done away with so that in the interest of security, …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I have no intention of disrupting the beautiful and smooth debate off my elder brother, hon. Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe. However, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Chipili in order to point and shout from behind, instead of listening to the points being put forward by the able Member of Parliament? Is he in order not to recognise that PF lost the elections because the calibre of Members of Parliament they have was not good enough for ministerial positions?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let me take advantage of that point of order to appeal to all of you to remain silent when someone is debating because that is the only way we can make progress. Otherwise, if you talk when someone is debating, you may not be able to follow their arguments. Therefore, that point of order, though specifically referring to the hon. Member for Chipili, refers to all of us who are talking when someone is debating.

Can the hon. Member continue, please?

Mr Muyanda: I thank you, Mr Speaker. Tribalism should be buried and forgotten. The word itself should have no room in this august House. We should come with a Motion that no Zambian shall point a finger against another alleging tribalism because this is the word that has been abused by the greenhorns.


Mr Muyanda: The principal tribalists are the ones, if I may use Hon. Munkombwe’s term, who are saying, “kabwalala, kabwalala”.


Mr Muyanda: They are the very ones who are pronouncing the word tribalism. If you look at their organisation structure, it is all about tribalism. So, who is the tribalist?

PF Members: You!

Mr Muyanda: The tribalists are the greenhorns.


Mr Muyanda: The accusing fingers should point at their heads and not those of others. In this august House, we conducted business in harmony, but the greenhorns came in and started talking about tribalism. Can we find a common denominator, one day, in this august House, and pass a Motion and then a law to make sure that we forget about tribalism. It is dangerous to accuse a person of committing an offence which he or she has not committed just because you want to get power through fraudulent means.

PF Members: Aah!

Mr Muyanda: Learn to accept a loss gracefully and congratulate your colleague who has won and appreciate that there will be next time.

Mr Speaker, I thank you and the hon. Members for listening to me.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Vice President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to debate this Motion.  Firstly, I would like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the Motion for ably moving this Motion. It would not have come at any better time than a time when I have moved to the Office of the Vice-President which is in-charge of disaster management.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would like to put on record the fact that I was trained by the Zambia National Service (ZNS) with my other colleagues, Hon. Mbulakulima and a few others, at the camp called Devil’s Island in Kasama.

Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the Zambians to give us a chance, especially after winning the last elections, to organise firstly, food and other materials for people who are vulnerable due to natural calamities and not created calamities. Disaster management deals with natural calamities such as floods, and of course, diseases that we may not be able to control, such as cholera. However, to create cholera on the streets of Kitwe and call the Government to assist, is the same as someone inciting people to burn market stalls, break schools and so on and so forth and turning round to ask the elected Government to provide tents, medicines and other materials. That is being unfair.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would like to borrow the term …

Hon. Members were making noise.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I do not really like that habit of shouting at your loudest when someone is on the Floor. I have warned before that of the three, you may find the youngest a little tougher. So, if you do not heed the warning, next time you may find yourself outside. So, can you be orderly.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, when we are debating this Motion, we need to be sober minded. This is because the Motion that we are debating relates to peace. So, it is not a simple matter. Having been trained by ZNS, I know what an AK47 is. In some countries, where they really know the sound of that gun, they cannot even allow a police officer to carry it in the streets because that gun is deadly.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Sichilima: To borrow the phrase from ZNS, it can buy a person.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, usually, people who start these wars, have places to hide. At the moment, we are all in this august House, in Lusaka, but if something was to happen in Kitwe, a son to one of us could be killed, a daughter or wife raped or harmed in many other ways. Only when you have been caught up in a web is when you will appreciate what peace is. Ask those of us who witnessed the liberation wars and saw how people ran away from their countries.

My constituency, Mr Speaker, is on the border. At the moment, we are restless because we do not know what is going to happen tomorrow. We saw our colleagues from Rwanda coming through Lake Tanganyika. With whatever means, they found their way into Zambia. If you ask each one of them, they probably do not know where their wives, children and dogs are. I hope that was a warning enough. We thank the Lord God, for saving us in the last elections.

Mr Speaker, when some party was leading in the just-ended elections, people did not cry foul.

Hon. MMD Members: No rigging.

Mr Sichilima: There was no rigging. A very responsible leader in the name of Rupiah Banda was at home and very calm, as he was ready to take the outcome of the polls. However, when things changed, some party leader, who was claiming to be president, went to the Mulungushi Conference Centre to dispute the results. What a shame. Imagine what would happen if that person had won the elections. Who would walk into this House to sit as hon. Member of Parliament at any given time?


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, that party leader is capable of walking into a market and command, for lack of better words, that the marketeers be killed if he so wanted. That shows the quality of his leadership. He knew he had no ministers or cadres to delegate to. That is why he went to the conference centre himself. War can be sparked by just a small disturbance and before people know it, the rest of the country is on fire. We need to look at where we have come from as a country.

Mr Speaker, I would not like to drag you into my debate, but as a veteran, you know where the United National Independence Party (UNIP) took us from …

The Deputy Chairperson: No!


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, at least, hon. Members of the House here know where UNIP took us from. They liberated us …

Mr Munkombwe: I know.


Mr Sichilima: … and governed us up to the time when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) took over and has ruled this country to this day. Some of the achievements that we are talking about, as MMD, were probably a completion of what UNIP started. Imagine there had been war between the reign of the two parties, projects initiated by UNIP would not have been completed.

Mr Speaker, some of the bridges that were burnt down during the Chachacha Movement have not been rebuilt to date. How many years have passed since that struggle? On the other hand, some people want to destroy what we have achieved all these years. It is true that some of the people who want to lead this country were not even there during the time of the Chachacha Movement. They cannot be referred to as freedom fighters.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, uwakana okweba, akana nokocha.

Mr Munaile: Meaning?

Mr Sichilima: Meaning that, ‘if you do not go to hunt, do not expect to eat the meat …

Mr Munaile: No! Teifyo.

Mr Sichilima: … that is coming from the bush’.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, literally translated, this means, according to my brothers from the lakes, Western Province and those from the swamps, one who refuses to go and fish, should not expect to roast the fish. What I am trying to say is that those who have lost an election should accept the result. They should not try to use the back door to become leaders of this country.

Sir, when the late President led us to victory, a lot of young men and women were appointed hon. Ministers because they were the ones who campaigned. When we won, we realised that we had maintained peace. Even in the last elections, we told the people what we were able to do rather than promising to do wrong things that are not attainable after ninety days. We told the people the truth, hence they voted for us.

Mr Speaker, I would like to commend our colleagues in uniform for a job well done in maintaining peace during the elections. It was not easy but they performed to expectation. The tension that some people are talking about is perceived because a sensible person cannot see any tension.

As we leave Parliament, I do not know whether the person who is going to be driving the vehicle I am going to jump in is from the Southern, Eastern or any other province in Zambia. We live in harmony. Even the people who go to socialise do not look at the tribe of those they share a drink with. They share their mosi and other drinks in harmony.

 It is unfortunate that people who are tribal are the ones accusing others of tribalism. Like Hon. Munkombwe recently said, a kabwalala who is being chased also starts shouting, “kabwalala!”
Mr Hamududu laughed.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, some people who talk about tribalism forget that their wives belong to other tribal groupings. Are they being fair? How will the children look at a father who champions tribalism? This should be condemned in the strongest of terms.  As for me, my grandmother was called Chirwa while my father was a Mambwe. I am married to a Tonga and the grandfather to my wife was Ila. Therefore, there is more than one tribe in our family. There is no tension, as we are one people and one Zambia.

Hon. MMD and UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Let us isolate.


Mr Sichilima: I can wake up at anytime and go in any direction of this country.  The tribalism practiced by some people shows that they will never rule this country.

I can talk about the Northern Province, in particular which is one of the united provinces in the country. However, we are allowing this confused …


Mr Sichilima: … situation of – I wish I had a dictionary to find a better word to describe some people.

Mr Munkombwe: Ask me.

Hon. Members: Ask Mpombo.

Mr Sichilima: Some people have just developed hatred for one area despite it having many tribes. I am an hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala. I will be lying if I say that there are only Mambwes and Lungus in my constituency. It is not true. There are Kaondes who have been there from time immemorial. There is even a headman called Mudenda.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: I do not know what tribe he is, but he is there.


Mr Sichilima: Even other areas of the Northern Province have lived in unity. Some of us do not want to be brought onto the bandwagon of tribalism. We do not see tribe on people’s faces, but perceive every person as a Zambian.

I do not think any sensible parent would ask a child, who is about to marry, the tribe of his or her chosen partner.  The child would think the parent has gone mad. This is something that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we need to teach our people. Otherwise, this will not take this country anywhere.

Mr Speaker, this Government has done very well with regard to freedom of expression, press freedom and, indeed, others related issues. However, in the name of democracy, people have gone beyond the limit. Like some people say, one is better off being cruel than to be kind. I think this is the time we need to bring some people to book. They have made so much money that if they incite violence, in one second, they will higher choppers and run away while some of us will die here.

Mr Speaker, countries that are considered champions of democracy are closing up, but here, some people want to pretend that we need to open up.  Let them not go too far. I am sure this House has passed enough laws that will visit them.

Mr Speaker, we are seeing the last minutes of a dying horse. Time is proving to be ripe, but please, if they are tired, let them kick quietly in their homes.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would like to remind them that ulelosha tabamucheba kukanwa, meaning those who are mourning, especially those who have lost elections, should not be looked at when they are mourning because their faces will be very ugly to look at.

Mr Speaker, let us look at our children and the future of this country. We will not be ministers for ever.

Mr Speaker, my last appeal to you is, guide us so that even as we walk out of this House, we preach to the Zambians that there is no division or tension.

Last Sunday, most of the people went to pray and even the Seventh Day Adventists went to pray happily on Saturday.

Mr Chongo: Like myself!

Mr Sichilima: As for those who are saying there is tension, the tension is in their heads. The whole nation is united and the President is in State House.

Mr Muchima: And he will be there for good!

Mr Sichilima: And will be there for good.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would like to carry out my duties, through the able leadership of His Excellency, President Rupiah Banda, and under the guidance of His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, Hon. Kunda, SC, Member of Parliament for Muchinga, of distributing food to the vulnerable due to natural calamities and not created calamities.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I can see that a number of you would like to contribute, and I should say that I have a number of notes with me from you, hon. Members, although I need not tell you because it is my discretion. However, I think that I should because you need to understand the reasons for my desire to move fast. I would like to give the Floor to one or two more members, but the problem is that those of you who write notes and ask for only for five minutes take twenty minutes when given the Floor. This makes it difficult for the others to contribute. If you can assure me that you will speak for five minutes then I can take, at least, two or three more members.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, I thank the mover and the seconder of this report and I stand to support it.

Mr Speaker, your Committee have debated a topic on Information Communication Technology, ICT vis-à-vis security challenges to the country. This topic is very important, but it has been overlooked even in some of the debates they have debated before.

Sir, how ready is Zambia to take on ICT programmes for it to secure its country? For example, in Kipushi, the security officers are using the Democratic Republic of Congo network to report to the headquarters. Therefore, how safe are we? To this context, where is Zamtel and Cell Z? They are supposed to come in and assist where Zain and MTN are failing.

Mr Speaker, this point seems simple because it is being raised by an individual, but as a team, you gave us the mandate to tour Kipushi and we were told that Zain and MTN have refused to go there because it is a non-profitable area for them. Therefore, what is Zambia going to gain with regard to security matters if we keep a parastatal such as Cell Z here?

Mr Speaker, a lot has been said about communication. In Nsumbu, the Zambia National Service is on alert, …


Mr Sikazwe: … - listen from me and get it clearly- and Chimbamilonga is hosting the Zambia National Service. In 1997, there was a boat which came from the Democratic Republic of Congo and nobody knew what it was carrying. Later, it was discovered that there were a lot of guns which took more than two days for school boys to offload. So, how safe was Zambia at that time?

Mr Speaker, let us not take this communication issue lightly. It should not just be for the benefit of a businessman to call …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member for Chimbamilonga I have just realised that you are a member of the Committee, of course, you can debate, but can you do it in two minutes because the mover and the seconder have done it on your behalf. Therefore, can you, please, wind up.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Speaker, the reason I stood up is to qualify the issue of ICT where we are facing challenges as a Government and country, today. We are talking about Nsumbu and the rest of the Zambia National Service camps. Therefore, with regard to what Hon. Katele was talking about, I will be the first person to receive refugees through the lake because the distance between Goma and Nsumbu is less than 1000 kilometres. Therefore, how are we prepared with regard to connecting the security personnel with the right network instead of using foreign networks?

In Nsumbu we are using Vodacom to connect through Tanzania so that the information can reach some sources in time. You have heard what is happening on the ground with the DRC rebel leader, Laurent Nkunda. How are we going to cope with the pressure from the people who come from there? Above all, we do not have a boat to combat any insurgence coming into Zambia. There is no boat for the military personnel, and this is what we want to amplify. Let us go the security way to safeguard Zambians. As Congo DR is at war, so is Zambia. We should know very well that any day, Zambians can be killed in the Congo DR owing to the fact that the boundaries are not yet known. I have lived there for forty-five years, and yet I do not know where the border between Zambia and the Congo DR is.

The Deputy Chairperson: The point has been made hon. Member.

Mr Sikazwe: Finally, I was trying to contribute to this report by saying that the issue of communication should be attended to urgently.

The Deputy Chairperson:  You have made your point, hon. Member, thank you.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I thank you for letting me catch your eye. I will be very brief and I will start by saying that all of us here know how important safeguarding a country is and that it takes quite a while to put something together, and yet it can take split seconds to bring it down. I have in mind the World Trade Centre in the United States of America. I would also like to sincerely indicate that sometimes, when you are too simplistic, you can be a danger to yourself.

Mr Speaker, in this country, we have a lot of alarmists and we have allowed too much freedom of expression.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: In this country, Mr Speaker, we tend to use sensitive subjects to incite people. I want to demonstrate this point to you, Sir.  Someone who has been in Government for a very long time, in his wisdom, has been perpetrating a story that when he comes into power, he is going to get rid of the electricity crisis in this country.

Mr Speaker, you know how much our nationals desire to have electricity. You know how frustrating it can be when you have a load shed or power blackout. You know exactly how much it pains to be cooking nshima and suddenly, before it is ready, power goes off. It is these simple things that I wish to question my colleagues, through you.

Mr Speaker, in Tonga we say “Icizwa kumulomo chiletela nkondo”, which means that whatever is uttered by the mouth can culminate into a real disaster. Therefore, as leaders, we need to be cautious with regard to what we say, when we say it and to whom we say it.

Mr Speaker, we have continuously taken advantage of our people because half the time we deal with people who have less knowledge than deserved. We need to ask this Government to double its efforts in educating people so that a simple message such as “there will be money in your pocket” should not get people to have an orgasm.        


Mr Nkombo: We need to educate people that we need to work and sweat to have money in their pocket.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: You cannot simply say there shall be money in your pocket without giving a master plan of how this money is going to be made.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: When someone who has not gone to school is told that he or she will have money in the pocket, one gets excited. Who would not be excited to have money in the pocket?

Mr Speaker, we have a lot of careless people among us in this House. We have a lot of wreckless human beings among us here.  I am sorry to repeat this, but I will use it in a different context, cheap talk can cause danger to us, the people we live with and the people who will come after us because we are always sowing a seed of generating hatred among us.

Mr Speaker, I do not see the difference between my younger brother, Hon. Chishimba Kambwili, and I. I wish he was here. He singles out three hon. Members of Parliament – Hon. Mooya, my uncle, Hon. Hachipuka and Hon. Muntanga and says that in our crystal clear party of intellectuals, only the three are not tribalists. I wonder what he was trying to achieve.

Sir, I also wish Hon. Guy Scott was here.

Hon. MMD Members: They have run away!

Mr Nkombo: I wish he was here to hear me because two days ago, he said as far as he was concerned, there were only twenty opposition Members of Parliament. You do not need to throw stones to prove to people that you are opposing when you need to oppose, just as you do not simply oppose because you are in the Opposition, as you would become completely irrelevant.

Hon. MMD Member: Very irrelevant!

Mr Nkombo: You become completely irrelevant to the well being of our people.

Mr Speaker, I promised to be very brief. Therefore, I would like to end by giving a word of caution to the Republican President. Those of you who have an opportunity to chat with him, tell him that he also owes the Zambian people an apology. Through careless talk, Mr Speaker, it is a fact these words were uttered “bakabwela kuno ku Katete muku kampena mukabapishe.” That is also another dangerous statement.

The Vice-President then, and His Excellency the Republican President today, came to Mazabuka and we received him as Zambians ought to be received by other Zambians.

Mr V Mwale: Iwe Nkombo siwenzeko. Unvelela  ba Post!

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I have been following the good debate from the front, middle and back benches of the UPND, people that I know very well and recruited when I was their Secretary General.


Hon. UPND Members: Which ones?

Mr Tetamashimba: Is my brother on the Floor, who is a decent man, in order …

Hon. UPND Member: And married to someone from your province!

Mr Tetamashimba: …yes, and married to someone from my province. Is he in order to put words in the mouth of His Excellency the President of Zambia who cannot defend himself in this House, by making allegations that are unfounded and are unknown to me who was present throughout the campaign. Is he in order to mislead the nation? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: He was not there!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Member continue as he takes that point of order into account?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I know His Excellency the President is a very magnanimous person and without much ado, he knows that an apology to the Zambian people is in order.

Mr Speaker, when the then Vice-President came to Mazabuka, the police came to me and said, “Hon. Nkombo, we know you are an extremely popular person, but could you allow the Vice-President to have a peaceful meeting by going to another place because when the late President came here, there were a lot of problems.”


Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we respected that idea by going away from the ward where the Vice-President was to have a meeting in order to facilitate a smooth meeting, and yet he, regardless of what my brother-in-law, Hon. Tetamashimba is saying, went ahead and said “bakabwela kuno mukabapishe”. Allow me to translate that for those who do not understand. It says “ine ndine mwana wanu” which means, “I am your son”. Whoever told him that I did not have parents in the Eastern Province? “Bakabwela ma party yenangu”, he used to call us chancers, “mukabapishe” which means “chase them” or “discard them”.


Mr Nkombo: That is not in the spirit of one Zambia one nation. With those few remarks, I would like to indicate, clearly, that as we are castigating certain greenhorns, even among us good people, we need to caution each other …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … so that His Excellency the President, Mr Banda’s job should now be more to harmonise this country than to divide it further.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you.


The Minister of Communications and Transport (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the mover and the seconder of this Motion as well as the Committee for the time they took to attend to this very important issue.

It is not my intention to take a lot of time on the Floor, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Siliya: … but I just wish to take issue with a point that has been raised on page five of the report that the ministry which anchors the ICT Policy has not been consulting, particularly with the defence wings of this country.

Mr Speaker, I wish to assure this House and the public that we have had very extensive consultations with all the stakeholders, namely; the ICT Industry, the Defence Forces  and even ourselves as a Government because the development of the ICT sector in this country is not limited to the defence wings only but also, generally, for the ICT sector to develop and for the Government to be able to implement e-government so that we can provide services electronically and develop this policy space so that we have enhanced clarity and direction in terms of this ICT Policy and make sure we support the private sector through e-commerce.

Mr Speaker, once again, I wish to assure your Committee and the House that we are still consulting. I will still consult further with my colleagues in Cabinet when I take the Cabinet Memorandum and finally bring this Bill to this Parliament so that we can address the ICT challenges in this country at present and as they arise in future. As a Government, public and private sector, we want to ensure that we provide this service efficiently, effectively and ultimately reduce the cost of doing these things.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: That is wonderful because it gives the opportunity to the hon. Minister of Defence who has been indicating for some time.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the august House for their very constructive contributions in recognising the work of my ministry.

Sir, in view of time constraints, I would be very brief. However, I would like to say that peace is a necessary concomitant …


Mr Mpombo: … to any economic development. That is why the Government will not allow people to sabotage the country through irresponsible behaviour. If we did, we would undermine what we have so far achieved. We have so far achieved full economic fundamentals. If we allow people to continue behaving the way they are, we are going to be in problems because we are going to scare tourists, direct foreign investments as well as ourselves. We are going to paint a very bad picture of Zambia. Zambia should be a very lucky country.

Currently, there is a serious economic crisis because capital markets have fumbled world over. As a result, most countries have put breaks on investment because they have to borrow most of the money. Now these capital markets are in a tailspin.


Mr Mpombo: Therefore, we are lucky that the mines have said that they will continue with their operations for the sake of Zambia. It has been reported in today’s newspapers that Lumwana Mine has said it will continue operating for the sake of Zambia. This is a very important achievement. That is why we must guard the peace in the country. We must not allow marauding and political malcontents …


Mr Mpombo: … to destroy the peace that we are enjoying now. I would like to briefly state that the role of the Government is to maintain peace. Therefore, no one would be made to get away with disturbing this peace. Those who are entertaining political brouhaha …


Mr Mpombo: … are doing that at their own political peril. This is because the Government can descend on such people like a tonne of bricks.


Mr Mpombo: Therefore, I would like to end by saying that people who are claiming that they can create political confusion in the name of freedom of speech, have got it all wrong. Zambians will not allow anyone, regardless of his status in life, to create problems, undermine and cite people. If elections were conducted two weeks ago, what is your role to be going through these elections when you are not even an election monitor?

We would like to sound a warning to those who are behaving that way, those political nincompoops …


Mr Mpombo: … that they would be dealt with severely.

Mr Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister of Defence, the word nincompoops does not seem to augur well with the proceedings of the House. Can you withdraw that word, please?


Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged, but I would like to say that the people involved in promoting political meningitis …


Mr Mpombo: … will be dealt with severely.


Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, I would like to end by commenting on the DRC situation. As a country, we are committed to the provision of troupes on the international arena. Last week, the Great Lakes Region and the Southern African Development Community (SADC) met to make a resolution on sending troupes. Like we said, we look at these issues when we are asked, but the security of soldiers is paramount in every situation. It is for this reason that Zambia refused to deploy soldiers to Somalia because we realised it was a religious war and we could have put our soldiers at a great risk. Therefore, Zambia will continue to play that role, but knowing fully well that the security of our soldiers as well as our own is important.

Mr Speaker, I would like to end with the issue raised by Hon. Nkombo regarding what the President is alleged to have said. I think this is an issue that certain people, not Hon. Nkombo, have torn out of context for malicious political gain. The President’s remarks never came any closer to that. In any case, it is common sense that if Hon. Machungwa is going to stand as a presidential candidate, we expect him to bring on board his province. That is not being tribal. There is nothing wrong with that. Therefore, it is not right to paint a wrong picture about the President. He has been a freedom fighter and an architect of one Zambia one nation, before. Surely, if we want to talk about tribalism, let us look at the voting pattern in the Northern Province. We have the Mpika enclave coming all the way into the Luapula Province and all the other areas. These are the issues we should look at, but people have been hammering on President Banda for an offence he did not commit. If you are a political pundit, …


Mr Mpombo: … you must analyse the voting pattern in the Northern Province. If you want to talk, come back to discuss these issues. Otherwise, it is not right to say that President Banda engineered tribal politics, far from it. You must look at the voting pattern countrywide. If anything, it is the MMD that has supporters across the country. Look at those pertinent issues, please. President Banda is a locomotive politician. He understands these issues well. There is no way you could find him a victim in that sort of cartographic issue.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will now call on the hon. Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Home Affairs to make remarks on the report before I call on the mover of the Motion to wide up.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Mr Speaker, I would be extremely brief. First of all, I would like to congratulate and thank the mover and the seconder and, indeed, the members of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I would to comment on the Zambia Mine Action Centre. Your Committee come out strongly in the seriousness of their touch to the centre. Indeed, I can assure the House that the Government is committed to ensuring that by 2011, landmines would be cleared wherever they are. This is the assistance from the Government and the other international organisations that are coming to our assistance.

Sir, with regard to the issue of Zimbabwe, DRC and the Sudan, Zambia is a part of the Great Lakes Region and is a member of SADC. Therefore, we will go by the resolutions which were made by the two organisations. Zambia attaches great importance to the problems in Zimbabwe and other countries because they are our neighbours. When we look at Zimbabwe, we notice that it is one of our bigger partners in trade. At the end of the day, any problems that occur in Zimbabwe will spill over into Zambia. The same goes to the Democratic Republic of Congo, for which we have the longest border of about 2,000km. Therefore, Zambia is concerned and it reaffirms itself to ensure that through peaceful ways, we should find solutions to the problems in these two countries.

Mr Speaker, a lot of speakers have alluded to peace. What I would urge our hon. Members of Parliament as well as the country at large is that we should not take what has been said here, particularly by Hon. Kasongo, Hon. Miyanda and Hon. Kalumba as politicking. The issues that they raised are serious. 

Sir, at the moment Zambia is regarded as an oasis of peace around the world. Zambia is also being used as a model on how Africa can run its elections and how it can guard itself without creating tension. Therefore, what has been said by the hon. Members that I have mentioned should be taken seriously. The use of words such as “tension” can create a problem in a country. If you say, “there is tension”, as many speakers have indicated, how do you determine tension in a country? When there is tension, there will no free movement of people in the country. People will be scared to move around, but is this what is happening in Zambia? The answer is no. Let us not play with words.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Kasongo said that we must observe democratic principles. What I know is that for somebody to understand what democracy means, he or she must be a democrat. Democracy starts even from our homes and we may not know this. How democratic are we in our homes? How do we treat our children? When it comes to the political arena, how do we run our political parties? Is there any democracy in our political parties? If there is no democracy in our political parties, how will individuals leading that party be democratic? Therefore, the first point is that we should ensure that our political parties are democratically run.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Sir, this is when we will know what democracy means. At the moment, there are some people who may not understand what democracy is because they are not democrats themselves and they do not understand democracy. 

Mr Speaker, I promised to be brief. The point I am making is that we should maintain the peace in this country. Let Zambia remain an oasis of peace in Africa.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to make very few remarks on this motion on the Floor. With your leave, let me begin by thanking the mover and the seconder of the Motion and other members of your Committee for a very thorough and comprehensive report.

Mr Speaker, I will restrict my few remarks to issues raised regarding the operations of the Drug Enforcement Commission and the border posts which were visited by the hon. Members.

Sir, we are grateful for the observations and recommendations made about the operations of the Drug Enforcement Commission. We agree on the need for more operational autonomy regarding the levels of efficiency and delivery of service by the Drug Enforcement Commission. We shall, to that extent, examine the necessary provisions of the narcotic drugs and psychotropic substances and the provisions of the Money Laundering Act with a view to amending them in order to address concerns of efficiency and effective service delivery.

Mr Speaker, the area of financial autonomy and Drug Enforcement Commission has already been resolved because the Drug Enforcement Commission enjoys the same status as the Zambia Police Force with regard to this matter. The Drug Enforcement Commission is funded directly and independently by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. This funding covers operational areas as well as personal emoluments. What is required is a mechanism for the controlling officers to provide an overall supervision of the utilisation of funds to prevent wastage as well as promote accountability.

Mr Speaker, the Drug Enforcement Commission needs continuous support from the Treasury to ensure provision of requisites for efficient operations such as reliable transport, adequate accommodation for staff as well as specialised training.

Regarding the border post, we appreciate all the observations and recommendations made following the visits by the Committee to various border posts. Most of the observations made are to do with the operational problems such as lack of transport and communication facilities as well as welfare of staff, in this regard, water and electricity facilities. The provision of these services is any on-going exercise and the Government will continue to plan for them on a yearly basis. The Government is committed to providing these facilities to improve operations as well as attending to matters of staff welfare.

Sir, with these very few remarks, I support the Motion.

Ms Chitika: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to wind up this non-controversial, but yet important Motion. I would like to thank the four hon. Ministers and all the hon. Members who have debated. They have brought out important issues concerning our internal national security and peace. We need to seriously reflect on these issues as peace loving Zambians.

Sir, the concerns raised in the report and those raised by hon. Members will be followed up in the action taken report next year.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Quality!

Question put and agreed to.


Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare, for the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of this House on 17th October, 2008.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Singombe (Dundumwenzi): Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, your Committee studied two topics for 2008. In accordance with their terms of …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.


Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I said that your Committee studied two topics for 2008, in accordance with their Terms of Reference. The topics were:

(i) migration of health workers vis-à-vis, the Government’s retention scheme in Zambia; and

(ii)      the regulation of medicines in Zambia.

Sir, your Committee also undertook local tours and considered two action-taken reports. They considered the action-taken on your Committee’s report for 2007 and the action-taken report on the petition by persons with disabilities for 2007.

Mr Speaker, I now wish to share with the House the findings of your Committee on this important topic. Your Committee observe that there is a serious migration of health workers, internally and externally, whose main driving factor is the poor and uncompetitive conditions of service.

Sir, your Committee are concerned with the fact the health sector is operating with half the number of the required staff. This is a real crisis that requires immediate attention.

Mr Speaker, the inadequate funding of the health sector cannot be overemphasised. This has affected the various interventions to mitigate the crisis. For instance, the implementation of the health Workers’ Retention Scheme has been rather slow. It is sad to note that the sustainability of the scheme is not even guaranteed since it is donor driven.

Mr Speaker, at a time when the health sector management system is expected to be efficient and effective to mitigate the impact of the crisis in the health sector, the system continues to be bureaucratic despite the sector requiring urgent attention. This is evidenced by delays in employing the health cadre graduating from colleges. Sir, in order to stem the migration of health workers, your Committee recommend that the Government improves the conditions of service for health workers in line with the trends in the sub region.

Your Committee also recommend, as they have always done before, that the Government funds the health sector adequately, starting with the allocation of the minimum 15 per cent of the National Budget to the sector in line with the Abuja Declaration.

Mr Speaker, there is a need to speed up the implementation of the retention scheme in view of the crisis in the health sector. In addition, the Government should urgently attend to some of the concerns in relation to the retention scheme such as the inclusion of a mechanism for upward adjustment of allowances in line with the cost of living and inflationary tendencies and the provision of education support for children of health workers serving in rural areas under the scheme. Furthermore, the Government should take ownership of the retention scheme in order to guarantee its sustainability.

Sir, the management systems in the health sector need to improve. There should be no delays in putting recruited staff on the payroll and payment of the relevant allowances to those eligible.

Mr Speaker, your Committee undertook local tours to selected health institutions in the Western and North-Western provinces. The objective of the tours was to verify the existence of retained staff under the Health Workers’ Retention Scheme and confirm whether the scheme was being implemented as had been pronounced by the Executive. Your Committee also wanted to check on staffing levels and appreciate the environment in which rural health institutions were operating.

The following institutions were toured:

(i) Kaoma District Hospital;

(ii) Lewanika General Hospital;

(iii) Luampa Mission Hospital;

(iv) Senanga District Hospital;

(v) Solwezi General Hospital;

(vi) Kasempa Urban Clinic; and

(vii) Mukinge Mission Hospital.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observe that while there may be one or more medical doctors and nurse tutors on the retention scheme in various hospitals, little is known about the scheme by other health personnel. The scheme has also not attracted as many doctors as expected although the number of those on the scheme has increased. Sir, your Committee noticed the presence of foreign doctors who complained that they did not enjoy any special retention-related incentives.

To that effect, your Committee, therefore, recommend that the Government sensitises all health workers on various policy issues and the retention scheme, in particular. The Government should make the retention scheme all encompassing by scaling it up to cover all essential health workers. Furthermore, foreign doctors working on local conditions should also be covered by the retention scheme in order to motivate them to work in areas that are currently being shunned by Zambian doctors.

Mr Speaker, the Pharmaceutical Act of 2004 provides for the regulation of medicines in Zambia. The Act also provides for the establishment of the Pharmaceutical Regulatory Authority (PRA) and stipulates its functions. The PRA is a statutory body charged with the responsibility of regulating medicines. Sir, your Committee were informed that this legal framework is generally adequate if well implemented. However, your Committee have made some observations which require the urgent attention of the Executive.

Sir, your Committee observe, firstly, that PRA lacks capacity to carry out its mandate. For instance, the organisation, currently, has half the required staff and the functions of the organisation such as the inspectorate are adversely affected. This is partly because it is inadequately funded.

Mr Speaker, your Committee urge the Government to fund PRA adequately. Otherwise, the objective of enacting legislation to regulate medicines will be defeated. In addition, the Pharmaceutical Act should be implemented in full, unlike the current situation where even the regulations to support the effective implementation of the Act are not yet developed.

Secondly, Sir, your Committee observe that the National Drug Quality Control Laboratory has not yet been established. Your Committee wonder how the Government could allow such a situation to go on because quality control testing of medicines is part of medicines regulation.

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommend that the Government urgently mobilise funds for the establishment of the National Drug Control Laboratory to guarantee quality verification of the efficacy of medicines.

Thirdly, your Committee observed that control of medicines smuggled into the country remains a serious challenge in the absence of scanners at ports of entry. Your Committee implore the Government to consider installing scanners at all ports of entry to help curb smuggling of medicines, especially through hand luggage.

Finally, Sir, your Committee recognise the importance of the role of the Zambia Revenue Authority in regulating medicines imported into the country. However, they are concerned that the PRA and the Zambia Revenue Authority do not seem to be exchanging views and enough information on the regulation of imported medicines. As a result, the Zambia Revenue Authority only relies on a letter from the PRA as a permit for someone to import medicines.

In this regard, your Committee recommend that the PRA should engage the Zambian Revenue Authority on various issues related to medicines regulation for the Zambia Revenue Authority to appreciate its vital role.

Mr Speaker, your Committee have noted with dismay the Government’s inertia on the issue of Choma District Hospital and the plight of Choma residents who depend on the hospital. The current staff of Choma District Hospital leaves much to be desired.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: The infrastructure was never designed for a hospital. The pervious Committee of 2005/06 and 2007 had made recommendations on this issue, but nothing has been done to date. The Government should consider the construction of a new hospital in Choma District as a priority.

In conclusion, Sir, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to you for the valuable guidance provided during the year. They are also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before them for their co-operation in providing the necessary memorandum and briefs.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to register my appreciation to all members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to the work of your Committee.

Sir, allow me also to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice and services rendered during the year.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, now.

Mr Speaker, I wish to second the Motion for the House to adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare. The Motion has been ably moved and I thank the Chair for that.

Sir, allow me, also, to thank the entire Committee for their dedication to the work of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, the Chairperson has appraised the House on the main findings of your Committee on their study on migration of health workers vis-à-vis the Government’s retention scheme and regulation of medicines in the Zambia.

To that effect, Sir, I will concentrate on the other equally important issues, especially as observed during your Committee’s tour of various institutions.

Sir, your Committee visited the following institutions:

(i) Kaoma District Hospital;

(ii) Lewanika General hospital;

(iii) Luampa Mission Hospital;

(iv) Kasempa Urban Clinic;

(v) Solwezi General Hospital;

(vi) Kasempa Urban Hospital; and

(vii) Mukinge Mission Hospital.

Sir, there is a lack of staff accommodation in all these institutions. Your Committee also learnt that many workers had been in acting positions for a long time.

With regard to uniforms, there is a general complaint about the inadequacy of the current uniform allowance for nurses. All these issues have demotivated the health workers.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observed that hospitals had inadequate kitchen and laundry equipment such as electric pots and washing machines. The theatres had old equipment and also lacked basic equipment such as autoclaves and trolleys.

Sir, it is sad to note that hospitals do not have enough transport and therefore, do not provide adequate ambulance services to the community. For Example, hospitals are usually unable to facilitate the evacuation of referrals.

Mr Speaker, another issue of concern is that hospitals have low capacity generators in spite of increased load shedding in the nation, and yet hospitals which are not on the National Grid such as Luampa Mission Hospital depend on these same generators.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are concerned with the large amounts of uncollected expired drugs being kept in hospitals. Sir, such a situation poses danger to the surrounding communities.

Sir, the security of hospital land is another issue. Your Committee observe that land has been encroached on in some hospitals areas.

Mr Speaker, in view of the foregoing, your Committee wish to recommend as follows:

(i) the Government should revisit the policy of building institutional houses for health workers in rural areas or alternatively, raise the housing allowance rate;

(ii) the Ministry of Health should implement the new staff establishment and ensure that staff do not remain in acting positions for too long;

(iii) there is a need for a clear policy on health workers’ uniforms. Your Committee are of the view that each uniformed worker should be entitled to two pairs of uniforms annually and uniforms should be distributed centrally;

(iv) the Government should procure laundry and kitchen equipment for rural hospitals and ensure that the equipment is maintained;

(v) the Government should ensure that theatre and other necessary equipment for rural hospitals is procured and the Ministry of Health should train operators and maintenance personnel to guarantee better management of all equipment;

(vi) the issue of transport for rural hospitals should be looked into urgently;

(vii) the Government should procure high capacity generators for all hospitals in the rural areas. Those  that are not on the National Grid such as Luampa Mission Hospital should be put on the grid and be provided with solar panels as a short-term measure;

(viii) there is a need for the Government to establish a system of annual inspection of drugs to isolate and dispose of expired drugs as soon as they are isolated; and

(ix) there is a need for the Government to secure hospital land in various districts by obtaining title deeds.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion it has been said that the Pharmaceutical Act, 2004, is comprehensive if implemented fully, but the law does not seem to regulate pharmacy practice. Sir, some pharmacy practitioners conduct themselves unprofessionally, but go unpunished.

Sir it is, therefore, important that the Government looks at this and amend the law to ensure that both the medicines and pharmacy practice are regulated. This will not only uphold professionalism, but also safeguard the lives of people.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second, and I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I thought I should not debate the previous Motion because it was very emotional and so, I left the older people to debate that.


Mr Hamududu: This is because I am still angry with the recent elections.


Mr Hamududu: Sir, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion, hon. Member of Parliament for Chikankata, a colleague, neighbour and youthful Member of Parliament and the seconder, the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwenzi …

Mr Muntanga: Another youth!

Mr Hamududu: … another youth.

Before I debate any further in support of this Motion, Mr Speaker, allow me to welcome the new Members of Parliament. My brother, hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya, …

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: …, Hon. Deputy Minister of Sports, Youth and Child Development, …

Mr Muntanga: Dr Kalila!

Mr Hamududu: … the Minister of Finance and National Planning who happens to be my former lecturer. Dr Musokotwane, I have high respect for you. You are one of the eminent economists this country has.

Dr Musokotwane indicated assent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Your record cannot be questioned by anybody. You set up the Economics Department at the Bank of Zambia and raised the research ability there before you moved away to offer services to other governments and later came back to serve your nation. I am sure that you will do your best as you have done in the past.

I wish to also welcome my sister, Hon. Kapwepwe, Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning. The people of Bweengwa and the Kapwepwe family are very close …


Hon. Government Members: Declare interest!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Your late father was very close to the late Harry Nkumbula who was the first Member of Parliament for my constituency.

Mr Syakalima: And he is close to you!

Mr Hamududu: I just want to happily welcome you to this House.

Mr Muntanga: And be close!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Muntanga!


Mr Hamududu: Finally, allow me to, again, welcome one of the top world eminent persons. If you search on the internet you will find that Hon. Vernon Johnson Mwaanga is one of the world’s top politicians.


Mr Hamududu: Whether you believe it or not, that is what he is. You cannot argue against that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Hon. Vernon Mwaanga is not only a Zambian politician, but also one of the top diplomats Africa has ever produced.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You can find the records at the United Nations (UN) for those people who like reading like me.

Mr Syakalima: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: He is a top diplomat. I wish to welcome my uncle. He went to school in my constituency and so, I am very close to him. I wish to welcome him. I hope he will share his experience with younger Members of Parliament.

Hon. PF Members: He will spoil you!


Mr Hamududu: Instead of shouting, it is better for us to learn from these older people. If you shout you will just remain an empty tin.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: If you mix with ng’wang’wazis, you become one. Unless you are in the ng’wang’wazi group!


Mr Syakalima: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, let me come to the debate. In supporting this Motion, I wish to concentrate on three areas. The first area is that of conditions of service for the health personnel. I wish to inform the new hon. Minister of Health, my brother, Hon. Kapembwa Simbao that the issue of conditions of service for the medical personnel has been a song that does not end. We need to make these people who save our lives comfortable. This Government has not done enough to make these people comfortable. You need to do something. Do not just give them simple cars because these people have invested a lot in education and you cannot subject them to Japanese auto wrecks. Give them the best conditions of service. They need new cars, proper house loans and remuneration. Otherwise, we will end up training them for other countries. This issue has not been concluded and for a very long time, we have continued talking about conditions of service. I think that Zambia now is able to address the issue of conditions of service for the medical personnel, that is, the nurses and doctors.


Mr Hamududu: When we are sick, we rush to the clinics, and yet we do not pay these people properly. Therefore, I would like to appeal to this Government, through this Motion, to be innovative. The new hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning must be flexible in this area and assist in improving the conditions of service for the people who save our lives. Otherwise, we are losing very experienced people all the time and having only trainees to give us treatment because the best doctors have gone abroad. Sometimes, if you are sick and you go abroad for treatment, you find that a Zambian is the one who attends to you. I think we need to address this issue very seriously.

The other issue I would like to bring to the attention of the House is that of … - you know I have to debate very well because my former lecturer is looking at me and so, I have to impress him.


Mr Hamududu: His labour was not in vain.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! I know that you speak highly of your former lecturer, but can you get to the point.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I am coming to a very important point, that of labour migration. I am a former labour immigrant myself. There is a need to regularise labour migration in this country and Africa as a whole.

Mr Sichilima: Tell us!

Mr Hamududu: You train people at such a high cost, and yet people go out to work in other countries and the country does not benefit in any way. I think African governments must sit down and see how they can regularise the export of labour. We cannot stop any one from leaving if they so wish, but the investment that our Government has put into those people must be realised. Imagine someone trains as a doctor for seven years at university and goes to work and treat people in America or South Africa and the country gets nothing. He only gets paid for his labour. What about the country that invested so much money in that person’s education? Therefore, there is a need for the Government to sit down and regularise this issue on export of labour.


The Deputy Chairperson: Let us listen. There are too many people consulting loudly. Can you, please, consult quietly so that we can give chance to others to listen?

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, in my view, if there are opportunities for Zambians to work outside this country, that is good enough. Let us maximise these opportunities. One way of regularising this is by getting some compensation for this. Secondly, with the high unemployment in Zambia and Africa in general, this is a employment opportunity.

Some graduates of universities in forestry or chemistry must be retrained in the medical profession and be exported. After all, it has been proven that the Zambians who are abroad bring more money to this country than the donors. So, this is a good opportunity. Let us pay these people well, but as they go to work outside the country, let us also get a good return. In my view, I would rather we put more money into training of these people and create a good opportunity to reduce unemployment in our country.

In South Africa, today, if you have a degree in economics, you can go to university for three years and become a medical doctor. They reduce the number of years in which you train. Therefore, we need to retrain people who are roaming the streets shouting unpopular slogans because of fatigue.


Mr Hamududu: They need to be retrained and get into these jobs. The Government must be innovative to realise the areas where there are opportunities to reduce unemployment among graduates and this is one of the areas. If our nurses want to go and work outside the country, let them go, but we must train more to replace them. However, those who remain must be well remunerated.

Mr Speaker, I wish to talk about the issue of the north-south relations regarding labour migration. I think that we are now in the second round of slavery were you give people for free and get nothing. The Western World, Europe and America have a responsibility to pay back for our investment in education. They are robbing us. This little money they are giving to us as aid is nothing compared to what they are getting from our professionals. The Economic Development Co-operation (EDC) must be taken to task and realise that we are making more donations to them than they are making to us by giving them these professionals.

We must engage them in different fora such as the ministries of Finance and National Planning and Health and to professionals in ministries that deal with international relations in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We must put these issues on the agenda when we go to Geneva and other places and tell them that we are being robbed, but when you come back, you are a donor when you have stolen more.

Mr Speaker, the western world is still exploiting us. After exploiting our minerals, they now want to exploit our labour. They got our people who they called slaves for free, minerals for free and now they want to get labour for free and Africa is still sleeping. We need to engage them.

Mr Speaker, what they have done is that they have even reduced training of nurses because they know that this poor continent called Africa and the developing world will produce nurses for them for free. We sit here talking about donors, what donors? We do not need a donation, but a fair platform on which we can trade. Africa is producing enough. We have enough raw materials and labour, but these people are clever than us. We need to catch them on this issue. SADC and the African Union must put this on the agenda. When they go to Addis Ababa, they should discuss these real issues. We must not be dictated on the agenda items to discuss when we go for these meetings. This is the agenda of bread and butter.

Hon. Member: Akakutole.

Mr Hamududu: Yes, they can take me along as an advisor.

Mr Speaker, there is another issue which I would like to turn to which relates to the quality of our health in Zambia and Africa as a whole and that is the issue of family planning which falls under the Ministry of Health. I think Africa is missing the point. We are not putting the right emphasis on the issue of family planning. Just because we want to be popular, we do not want to touch hot topics. Mr Speaker, we must hold this bull by its horns. The family size in this country must be defined.  There are laws in Asia, India and China and they are rebounding because of this secret and what is happening in this country is that we are just busy having as many children as can come out. That is not right.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, times have changed and Africa must adjust, but the problem is that some of these politicians do not go to the compounds. When I go into the compounds, I shade tears when I see children …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I am getting worried. Did it have to take his lecturer to come here for him to debate better than he has been debating before? I need your serious ruling, Sir.


The Deputy Chairperson: Will the hon. Member continue, please.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your ruling.

Mr Speaker, generally, Africa is shying away from this fact and therefore, we are creating a society that is heading for serious poverty. We are saying, no, we must wait until people have education. We must include family planning in the syllabus from Grade 1 so that people can understand the importance of having a reasonable family within their resources.

Hon. Member: Talk about polygamy.

Mr Hamududu: Do not ask me about polygamy because polygamous people have more wealth and so they are justified, but this has become common because even people who live in compounds and have no house to live in have eight children. This is not right.

Mr Speaker, it is not right to bring children on earth and make them suffer. Politicians must rise and not seek cheap popularity by thinking that if I say this, people will complain. For us young people, we will speak the truth as we see it. There is a popular saying in Monze which goes gama chuulu which means face the anthill, do not start meandering because this issue must be addressed. There are just too many children who we are bringing up and that is causing a very serious problem and compromise to the little economic gains that we are making.

Mr Speaker, at the rate the population is growing, the economy must be growing at 15 per cent, but this is not the case. As I always say, when God said, ‘go and multiply’, he did not say, go and do it alone.


Mr Hamududu: Do what you can and others will also do that. As for you, hon. Ministers, if you do not debate these issues in villages and compounds, we will have serious problems. When you go to the compounds, you will see how many youths are uneducated. People were saying that people in the rural areas are not educated, but there are more people in the compounds who are not educated. There is more ignorance in the compounds. I was attached to Lusaka during the campaign period and I saw that they only speak one slogan and when you ask why they are supporting they will just say, no, no, pabwato or whatever it is.


Mr Hamududu: To me, this is very painful because we have deprived these children of education and then we go back and cheat them, and yet if you look clearly, we have contributed to their situation. Some of their parents died because of our carelessness, but we go back to cheat them. There is so much ignorance, Sir, in the towns because children are not going to school. I go to Chawama, Kanyama and many other compounds on foot and I see that there is a problem. The children are not going to school because we are producing families that we are unable to provide for.

Mr Speaker, if the Government would like to put a mark upon which us the young leadership will be proud of, this issue must be addressed. Otherwise, you are handing to us a very serious problem. That is why we are demanding that we have young leadership because some of these old politicians do not care about tomorrow since they will not be there. For us, all things being equal, we are concerned about tomorrow.

Hon. Member: 2030.

Mr Hamududu: What 2030 are you talking about with this kind of careless family planning? Those goals are good, but there are some factors we must halt to achieve that.

Lastly, Sir, I would like to say that health is a right. Some people who introduced user fees are the ones who are cheating people on what they will do and so on. Health must be free and we in the UPND are saying health is an investment and a right and must be free. Sir, very soon, people will start suing you for not providing health services because it is a right guaranteed by the United Nations. Our people deserve free health services, especially those from my village in Kaleya Ward in Monze. They want to have free health services. In Hamangaba, they want free health services.

Mr Speaker, you must not segregate against people, others must be cheated, others must live and others must die and if there are any user fees, these must be cancelled because we in the UPND are saying we will do everything possible within our means to make sure that health services are free, just like education. Of course, we will be in power in 2011 when some of you will retire due to age. Among those who stood against HH, only Miyanda will stand, but the rest will not be fit.


Mr Hamududu: With these few words, Sir, I thank you.


Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to also add my voice to this important Motion which has been ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee and the seconder.

Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate those who have been appointed together with those who have been re-appointed to ministerial positions. For those who have not, I would like to say that this is not the end of the world and that there is always a next time. I would specifically congratulate Hon. Angela Cifire and Hon. Dora Siliya on being re-appointed to their positions. This shows how they are committed to work and how they are able to perform their duties.


Hon. Members: Declare interest!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, when we talk about issues of health – I will declare interest later.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not be distracted by people who are asking you to declare interest …


The Deputy Chairperson: … because you have no interest to declare.

Can you continue, please.


Mr Mukanga: Thank you, Mr Speaker. When we talk about health issues in Zambia, it is very cardinal that it is not underrated. People should not trivialise an issue which is so important. Health delivery in Zambia is very important because in as far as health is concerned, if this Government fails to deliver, there will be a lot of problems and deaths. So, when we talk about this issue, it is important that it is taken as seriously as it is. We have a situation at the moment, where people are failing to access this service, and yet it is said that the service should be delivered at the door step. I can tell you that we have people who are dying in their homes because they are no drugs in hospitals and ambulances to take them to the hospital. It is important that this Government puts measures in place to improve health service delivery.

Mr Speaker, the report of your Committee has highlighted a few issues which this Government needs to look at seriously. One of the issues is the retention of health workers. The retention of health workers should be twofold. The retention scheme should be so attractive as to attract back the people who are working outside the country. That is what is called brain drain. Even the brain which is in the drain should also be attracted back to the Zambia. The doctors and nurses who are working for NGOs should be attracted back to the Government. At the moment, the conditions of services are too poor to attract the calibre of medical staff outside the country. At the moment, when they come back from wherever they are, they start up other businesses that have nothing to do with health because they know that if they join the Ministry of Health, they will not be given the good conditions of service they deserve.

Mr Speaker, medical doctors and nurses spent years in school so they also need to reap from their education when they start work. At the moment, children of medical doctors are not interested in becoming medical doctors because they have seen the conditions they live in. Medical doctors and nurses need good accommodation; they do not just need cars. A car is not attractive enough for them. What they need are good working conditions. If you give medical doctors bad conditions, what do you expect when it comes to service delivery? There will be no quality service delivery because when they are in the wards all they will think about is how they are going to feed their children, are make sure their children go to school and how they are going to make sure that they have good accommodation. Therefore, most of all these things should be put in place so that they think in one direction all the time; that of delivering quality health service. If that is not done, whatever we have been talking about will be just theories.

Mr Speaker, one day, I attended a seminar at which one of the former Deputy Ministers of Health said, “now is the time when you know we are going to change things because in this ministry, we have a Permanent Secretary who is a medical doctor, Deputy Minister who is a medical doctor and Cabinet Minister who is a medical doctor.” He was talking with such vigour that I thought whatever was said was going to happen. Unfortunately, they have all been moved and people are still suffering while medical staff are still leaving the country. What has been put in place? Should we continue looking at our medical staff leaving this country while Zambia continues to be a training ground? How can we continue working at this pace, when there is a Government in place which is suppose to put measures in place to address these issues?

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, it is important that this time around, the hon. Minister who is in office puts measures in place to discourage medical doctors from leaving Zambia. Why should people be going to Morningside when they have a problem? Why can we not put measures in place to bring Morningside to Zambia instead of people being rushed there? Even if I do not have money, I should be able to go to the UTH and find similar services as those at Morningside. At the moment, it is very frustrating for nurses and doctors because even if they put in all their effort, they do not have equipment and drugs. So, even when they are going for work, they are already frustrated and if you have a frustrated worker, I am telling you, it is very difficult for him or her to provide a service that you require. Therefore, this Government needs to create a conducive environment to attract and retain them.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to talk about the Zambia Agency for People living with Disabilities (ZAPD). In its current form, the operations of ZAPD are not acceptable because this Government has decided to give them very little money. The allocation is not enough to go round, let alone support the operations of ZAPD. Currently, ZAPD has seventeen farms around the country, but if you visited the farms, you will find that there is nothing that is happening at each one of them. How can you have an agency which is just taking up the money that is allocated to it and is not productive? It is important that the operations of ZAPD are monitored closely and it is given enough money so that the seventeen farms are productive.

At the moment, ZAPD has a lot of casual workers who are doing nothing at the farms and some of them have not been paid for about six months. A good example of this is Lumino in Luapula. How do you expect them to survive? Do you not think that is a recipe for corruption and other vices? It is important that when you create an organisation, you fund it adequately so that it is productive. If ZAPD continues operating this way, I can assure you not to expect any good results from it.

 In the North-Western Province, there is a similar problem. Therefore, it is important that the Government puts measures in place to improve the operations of ZAPD.

Mr Speaker, coming to the issue of the Pharmaceutical Regulation Authority, it is important that, again, the Government funds it adequately to ensure that the staffing levels reach full capacity. This is because currently, it is operating at 50 per cent capacity. How do you expect them to operate when they cannot even regulate herbal medicine? If you go on the streets you will find a lot of medicines that has come through the borders, exposing the lives of people to danger and no one is checking this. Anybody in Zambia can bring in any type of medicine and some of the medicines that are seen on the markets have labels written in Chinese. It is important that the Government ensures that all the various organisations that were created, but are not adequately funded, are properly funded so that they execute the job they were created for.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you very much.

The Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare (Mr Kaingu): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this debate on the report of your Committee of Health, Community Development and Social Welfare. I wish to commend your Committee on the well-written report which has raised salient issues.

Mr Speaker, the report covers not only interviews, but also visits to some sites that gave the Committee an opportunity to appreciate the operations of the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services in general and the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities and national trust fund for the disabled in particular. Therefore, I am confident that the Members of your Committee will champion the cause of the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, as, indeed, is evidenced in the report, having seen the gap between what is and what should be, in terms of the operations of the grant-aided institutions under our ministry.

Mr Speaker, may I take this opportunity to provide a progress update on outstanding issues in the action-taken report of your Committee’s Report for 2007 and the action-taken report on the Petition by Persons with Disabilities for 2007. Based on the observations and recommendations, my ministry would like to inform the House as follows:

Firstly, under the review of operations and the performance of the Zambia Agents for Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD) with regard to how much has been allocated to revamping farm centres in the 2008 budget for ZAPD, I am informing the House that K29.32 million has been allocated for revamping the farm centres and this is being done in phases. The centres that received funding in 2008 are:

  Farm Centre     Amount Received (Km)

Chitila Farm Centre in Mungwi District  9.2

Mimosa Farm Centre in Lusaka District  5.4

Mitukutuku Farm Centre in Solwezi District  5.52

Luminu Farm Centre in Mwense District  9.2  

Also note that the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities has sixteen farm centres across the country and infrastructure in all the farm centres is dilapidated. Rehabilitating the farm centres will be done in phases based on the level of development potential of the farms. In phase one, rehabilitation of farm centres will start with the following farm centres: Mimosa, Kambowa, Kang’onga, Mitukutuku, Luminu, Linda and Intembwe.

Secondly, under the National Trust Fund for the Disabled, your Committee may wish to note that the National Trust for the Disabled (NTD) interest rates used for loans to persons with disabilities are as follows:

(a) NTD loans attract 25 per cent interest and the repayment period is twelve months;

(b) six moths loan repayment will attract 12.5 per cent interest rate; and

(c) all NTD loans have a grace period of up to one month for non-agriculture based loans and six months for all agriculture-based loans.

The ministry would also like to inform the House that the following mechanisms have been established at NTD to follow up on loan recoveries from persons with disabilities:

Firstly, all loan applicants should belong to groups of up to six members, each individual in that group shall be responsible for all the loans due to the members and loan repayment shall be a group responsibility. Through this new approach, NTD has seen an improvement of 50 per cent in loan repayments compared to 6 per cent for the individual lending approach.

Secondly, NTD has a network of partners who are referred to as loan agents. These are used as intermediaries in the administration of loans at the community level. Loan agents include community-based organisations, disabled persons’ organisations and others with experience in micro-financing.

Mr Speaker, under the Chitila and Mimosa Farms, your Committee may wish to know the following:

Firstly, an amount was allocated in 2008 for farm activities such as diversification. Unfortunately, nothing has been done due to financial constraints.

Secondly, a farm manager at Chitila Farm was recently employed in August, 2008.

Thirdly, with regard to payment of retirement packages to the retired workers at the farms, the ministry has instituted an audit to verify the amounts owed to all employees under ZAPD and running parallel to this task is the headcount exercise to ensure the erasure of ghost workers from its establishment before a request for payment is presented to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for separation packages.

Lastly, the ministry, through ZAPD, will provide a vehicle to Chitila Farm when funds are made available, as the institution is faced with financial liquidity problems. However, the agency is also trying to source this money through other partners.

Mr Speaker, under the action-taken report on the Petition by Persons with Disabilities for 2007, the ministry would like to furnish the following information:

Firstly, ministries and provinces consulted have not provided for disability issues in their budgets after the National Budget presentation because the idea of mainstreaming disability in national development to all line ministries and provinces only started to take shape the 2008 Budget presentation. However, it is believed that with the appointment of Disability Focal Point Persons (DFPP) in deferent ministries and provincial administrations, this year will help in the budgeting for disability issues in all ministries and provinces, as disability and development are human rights issues that affect society as a whole.

Secondly, most institutions have complied with the directive from Cabinet Office and fourteen officers have been appointed as Disability Focal Point Persons so far. An orientation workshop was held from 8th to 10th July, 2008 and the purpose was to orient the focal point persons on their roles and responsibilities in their respective institutions on issues regarding disability and development. I must also state that at this very workshop, fifteen other representatives from different ministries and provinces attended the orientation workshop for DFPP and it is hoped that they too will be appointed as DFPP in their respective institutions.

Thirdly, at the moment, the ministry is submitting the Cabinet Memorandum for the National Disability Policy for inclusion on Cabinet business and once Cabinet has deliberated and ratified the National Policy on Disability, the Persons with Disabilities Act No. 33 of 1996 will be presented to Parliament for review by June, 2009.
The delay was as a result of the …

Hon. UPND Members: You are reading!

Mr Kaingu: If you keep on disturbing me, it will take much longer.


Mr Kaingu: … lengthy process to review the policy and other unexpected events that have taken place this year, the preparations for Presidential by-elections, for instance.


Mr Kaingu: Since, you do not seem to be interested.


Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, let me now conclude.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, it was emphasised, in this House, that ministers must read, so I am reading.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not listen to those heckling from their seats.

Mr Kaingu: I am very grateful, Sir. Let me refer to what Hon. Mukanga said and from what I read, you can see that ZAPD needs recapitalisation. Therefore, when I bring the Bill to ask you to recapitalise ZAPD, please be first to support my ministry.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, I am not going to take too much time because I cannot agree more with most of the concerns that have been raised. I thank the Chairman of your Committee and the mover for being factual in their findings.

Mr Speaker, the problem of health is quite massive. We are seriously addressing most of the concerns that have been raised. For example, we are supposed to have an establishment of 50,000 workers. At the moment, we are just at half that number, and you can see that there are a lot of vacancies that have created big problems in as far as manning most of our clinics and hospitals is concerned.

We have gone fast track especially in training nurses. We have now have direct entry programmes for midwives who do not have to go through the first training as registered or enrolled nurses. They can train directly as midwives in the effort to try and catch up with the numbers required for this calibre of personnel.

As regards the issue of transport, we are addressing this very seriously. Last year in particular, 164 ambulances were purchased and distributed per province. We sent approximately twenty-one vehicles, but this is far short of what we expect. Therefore, we are constantly planning for more vehicles to be sent to most of the health centres. We are also buying motor bikes to areas which are hard to reach and we will also buy bicycles to further areas which are more difficult to reach.

However, the real problem in this case, which we seriously need to address, is that health workers are civil servants and as such, you cannot separate them from the other civil servants. If health workers were not civil servants, most of what we think cannot happen, can happen. To give you a little calculation, at 50,000 staffing, if we are to pay everyone K10 million, we will be talking of K6 trillion per year and when you look at this figure compared to our normal budget, for this year, it is just about half the total budget for the country. If you decide to pay 50,000 people K2,000,000.00 per person, you will be talking about K1.2 trillion. Therefore, by the Abuja target, 15 per cent of Gross Domestic Product, GDP this year, we managed to reach 11.3 per cent of GDP. 11.3 per cent of GDP translates to K1.45 trillion per year for the whole health sector. If we talk of 50,000 at K2,000,000.00, per person, a total of K1.2, already that is very close to the Abuja target which would take up all the money and we would forget about the infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, the biggest problem is that the workers are civil servants. Therefore, we would like to see a situation where we can pay these people handsomely. I must declare interest. I am married to a medical doctor who works very hard. I miss her twice in a week because she has to spend the nights at the hospital, but when you look at what she comes back home with …


Mr Simbao: … at the end of the month, it is not something very good to look at. I am trying to explain the real problems because I know the real problems of these people. Therefore, the problem we have as a Government is that once we have the money, we must ensure that we share this money among all the areas of need. Our GDP is the problem, but once we grow this economy as is the case at the moment, all these things will improve. Without growing this economy, we will have a problem. The only way we can grow this economy is for every one of us to be sober in what we say, especially as politicians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: If we cannot get people to bring money into this country, our GDP will always be dwarfed and there will not be enough money to pay anyone else. Therefore, we need to be very careful. If we want people to be paid very well, we must create the wealth first. As I go to the Ministry of Health - and this is the second time that I am going there, I will seriously look at these issues once again. If there is another way of doing things well, we will do it this time around. I am conscious about the needs of this cadre of workers in this country and I hope I am going to perform my duties as expected of me.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Could the mover of the Motion, please wind up. All the microphones are on, just give us two minutes. Let us wait while seated.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us give our friends some time to work on the microphones.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to wind up the motion. Before I wind up, I also want to join other hon. Members who have welcomed newly elected hon. Members of Parliament, nominated ones and those that have been put in different portfolios.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, issues of health affect our people, and therefore, I would like to thank the new hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services for answering some of the queries that were raised in the report and the new hon. Minister of Health for agreeing to some of the issues that were raised.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank everyone who has supported this Motion and hope the issues raised will have good results in the action-taken report.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.


(Debate resumed)

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, before the House adjourned on Friday, the highlights of my contribution were that the Executive should consider bringing a motion to this House to split the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to establish a Ministry of Livestock Services or Animal Husbandry.

Mr Speaker, I also indicated that there was a need for the Government to put more effort in intensifying artificial insemination to increase the population of animals in our country. We believe, from this end of the House, that rearing animals is not simply a hobby, but actually a business and the Government can consider using this route as a way to create wealth for our people.

Mr Speaker, I also indicated that we have the Institute of Animal Health in Mazabuka that was established in 1923. This institute has been under utilised. In 1999, for instance, a sum of K2 billion was allocated by this House to develop vaccines to improve the quality of animals in the country and in the province in particular.

Sir, there is a need for the Government to take a serious approach in ensuring that small-scale farmers who form 80 per cent of farmers in this country be supported by making sure that a stereotype vaccine is manufactured in this country that will suit and address the issues of the disease that we experience year in and year out.

Mr Speaker, there is also a need for the Government to introduce a programme to assist small-scale farmers to make dips available at all times. If animals are dipped regularly, you will be surprised that the issues of the Tick Borne Disease, Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD) and Contagious Bovine Plural Pneumonia (CBPP) may just reduce.

Mr Speaker, I am sad that Hon. Kapita is no longer here with us. This is because once I had finished making my submission on Friday, he called me aside and said he was very sad to imagine that the ministry actually spent K2.5 billion to procure some brands for animals to be clearly identified and distinguished by district to try and curb disease transmission from district to district at the height of the CBPP disease last year.

Mr Speaker, to date, this Government has lamentably failed to deliver these brands, which I said on the Floor of this House, could be manufactured even at the market, but they insisted that they needed to import them. The Government has failed the people of Zambia.

Sir, I now come to the issue of the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP). I took Mazabuka as a n example of how this FSP will continue to fail if the Government does not do anything that makes sense about it.

Mr Speaker, we have 27,800 plus or minus vulnerable farmers. This year, one hectare packs to the tune of only 7, 000 have been given to three constituencies, namely; Magoye, Mazabuka and Chikankata. Sincerely, you cannot share poverty. This programme is deemed for failure because a virus with a different name is still a virus. They have changed the names for these programmes so many times, and yet they leave a lot of difficulties among their District Agricultural Co-ordinating Officers (DACOs) because they fail to even start allocating these fertilisers.

Mr Speaker, at this point in time, everybody is vulnerable because they do not earn any reasonable income to buy fertiliser at the commercial price. Due to the just-ended election, Mr Speaker, we learnt how our colleagues from your right, in their desperate maneuvers to win votes, reduced the price of fertiliser from K250, 000 to K50, 000. The point you should understand is that you can fool some people sometimes, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. The people are angry because you cannot tell them this loaf of bread now costs K1,000, and yet there is no bread on the shelves. I feel this is a serious mockery of the people of Zambia.  If this Government cannot satisfy all the vulnerable people in our society, they must simply stop this FSP because it will continue keeping people at logger heads.

At the moment, we have a situation where the DACO does not sleep because he has people following him to his house for more packs. How, for instance, can you give a co-operative of 150 farmers, eight packs to share? It is a mockery! That is the situation that is obtaining in Mazabuka. I do not see the new Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Dr Brian Chituwo, in the House and I wish he was here to listen. However, Hon. Kalenga is able to listen and I went to his office yesterday to complain about these eight packs for 150 people. I am glad he received me. It had took me to speak to the DACCO and tell him that I had reported him to the hon. Minister because he was not being equitable in the manner in which he was distributing fertiliser. I knew that the man was at pains to find how to share nothing to people.

Mr Speaker, I have four minutes to go and I would like to issue a quick statement on the Ministry of Lands. Last week, my brother, Hon. Shakafuswa, indicated that it was very difficult to make wealth for the Zambian people. I said that this Government must empower Zambians by giving a part of these 753 square kilometres of land that constitutes this country. Other countries do it. They should be given title so that they can go to the banks and borrow money.

Mr Speaker, I sounded that out and also the need to decentralise the issuance of title deeds like Hon. Kasongo said on Friday. You cannot have a top-heavy system where if I want title deeds, I must go and look for Hon. Machila, Hon. Hamir or Mr Kachamba, the Commissioner of Lands, and yet there are departments at district level.

Mr Speaker, the investment policy must also change where there is an attachment of land. For instance, if I am an investor from Zimbabwe and I want to set up a farm, this Government should bring a proposal to this House that any issue that attaches land must be jointly owned with indigenous Zambians.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: That way, people who come to invest in Zambia will be better behaved. At the moment, we are unconsciously re-colonising ourselves because of the manner in which we are dealing with things. I believe we think it is unconscious, but probably it is deliberate on the part of the Government.

We are busy re-colonising ourselves by letting a man coming with a briefcase from England or wherever without an acre or an inch of land and when he goes to the ministry, he is given a title deed expressly like what happened last year. These displaced Zambians will one day ensure that those who were in office dance to the tune. We have so many internally displaced people because of week Government policies on land. Our people are homeless within this country. We have internally displaced human beings who have been victims of this Government’s policies.

At the time of establishing the Albidon Mine, Hon. Konga came to me and said, “Garry why are you fighting an investment?” I told him that I was a normal human being. These people need to be taken care of before you displace them.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, people who were displaced by the investment are still there on the mine swallowing dust and they are going to suffer from pneumoconiosis because of you people in Government. The investment has failed to find them land. How then do you say it is difficult to make wealth when you have 753,000 square kilometres of land? Those of you who travel should compare that to England and find out how much ground space the United Kingdom has. It is probably less than the Lusaka Province, but the land has been attached with so much value. Actually, it is a sin for the Government not to wake up to a realisation that they must attach value to this country by first giving anybody who applies and is of age, who is born in this country, a right to own land.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: If you go to many of these offices, you will find that each person has probably fifty plots. Those same people on your right know the value of land, but they have made it so bureaucratic for others to own land. Come on, Mr Speaker, God gave us …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


The Deputy Chairperson: The phrase “come on” cannot be referred to Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw it, Mr Speaker. I meant to say that the only asset that God gave us by virtue of being born here is land.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)


The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 19th November, 2008.