DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 26th November, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that I have received communication from the Government to the effect that in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President who is attending to other national duties, Hon. G. W. Mpombo, Minister of Defence, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today Wednesday, 26th to Friday 28th November, 2008.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

DELAYS IN THE PAYMENT OF BENEFITS BY THE NATIONAL PENSION SCHEME AUTHORITY (NAPSA)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, with regard to the concerns raised by the hon. Members of Parliament with respect to delays that are said to be experienced by members claiming their benefits from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), I wish to submit as follows:

As a Government, we are concerned about the welfare of the Zambian workers at the end of their working life and, therefore, we are committed to building strong institutions that will deliver the required services to members of the public. This is why we remain committed to ensuring that the institutions that are mandated with the administration of retirement benefits have adequate capacity to operate efficiently.

It is important, first, to make a distinction between the two funds that are administered by NAPSA, namely, the National Pension Scheme and the Zambia National Provident Fund (ZNPF) which is the forerunner scheme to NAPSA and is administered by NAPSA on a custodial basis. On the basis of the current legal framework governing the operation of the two funds, members who contributed to the ZNPF are allowed to claim their benefits on the basis of their contributions to that fund.

In most cases, it is claims from the ZNPF where delays are experienced by those claiming under that fund. However, these delays are to be understood from a historical perspective. The ZNPF scheme was a paper based process with all records processing and storage centralised in Lusaka. It was never fully computerised and for this reason requires record recovery and entry into the ZNPF system before benefits can be paid. The archiving and transportation of paper record was never optimal and, in some cases, records were lost. This increases delays in making benefit payments as the validation process takes longer.

Madam Speaker, I am happy, however, to report that the authority has now streamlined its processes and claims will no longer delay, as has been the case in the past. Over the past twelve months, NAPSA has decentralised the ZNPF benefit processing and payment process. It has developed new software to speed up the benefits processing and this software has been implemented in all the provincial centres. Where all the necessary information is available, a claim be processed in about 12 minutes. Currently, there is a programme to clear the backlog of claims that built up over the years.

Madam Speaker, NAPSA also experiences some delays on the claims due to inadequate data and poor Information and Communication Technology (ICT) infrastructure. In addition, there are also a few cases in which the authority has had to suspend payments of benefits on the NAPSA claims on account of non-remittance of workers’ contributions by some employers.

Furthermore, NAPSA operates under an expenditure cap. Its annual budget is fixed and cannot exceed the limits set by the Trustees and as advised by independent actuaries. This ensures that the NAPSA fund remains financially sound.

Madam Speaker, it should also be borne in mind that benefit claims can only be processed if the full records, including the member registration are in the NAPSA system. This is necessary in order to calculate the correct benefit payable to a member. The centralisation of record processing is slow and has resulted in late payment to members when they make claims, as the records have to be searched for and found and then entered into the NAPSA system. The overall NAPSA objective has been to pay benefit claims within six months and this has largely been achieved.

However, to address the delays, NAPSA has undertaken a significant upgrade of its ICT infrastructure and business processes. The upgrade is aimed at streamlining operations and increasing efficiencies, and includes speeding up of member and employer registrations and payments benefit. This has taken the form of investing directly in NAPSA infrastructure or indirectly by co-investing in other ICT based companies. Currently, a new NAPSA Virtual Private Network (VPN) is being implemented, that will enable all NAPSA stations to link together in a more efficient manner. The business processes have been decentralised meaning that once the VPN is completed, all NAPSA stations will be able to register employers and members and their contributions directly. In addition, NAPSA will introduce a biometric smart card that will carry member contribution records and thus facilitate faster payment of benefit claims once it becomes operational. This is expected to be introduced as a pilot within 2009 and implemented by the end of 2011. Employers will also be able to register their employees online via the WEB within the next two years.

Madam Speaker, this ICT upgrade is important because the independent actuary has identified that NAPSA will have 100,000 pensions within the next 10 years. So, it is important for NAPSA to invest in technology to keep costs within the expenditure limits and also to ensure that benefit administration is as efficient as possible. NAPSA, however, is committed to processing claims as quickly as possible and will aim to pay all benefits within one to four weeks.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to hear the hon. Minister say that with modern technology, all claims can be entered and processed in 12 minutes. Now, I would like the hon. Minister to clarify why the policy is that funds have to take six months for payment to be done. He mentioned the period of one to four weeks. Can he clarify how long, after the 12 minute processing, should a person expect to be paid?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I said that in certain cases, it is possible to effect a payment within 12 minutes, but I also explained the outstanding problem that exists elsewhere. That is what I said.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, from the statement that the hon. Minister has given to this House, he has indicated very clearly that there are two funds that are administered; NAPSA and ZNPF. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the monthly payments that retirees get from ZNPF. Are these payments commensurate with the investment portfolio of NAPSA in terms of its investment increment?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the funds that NAPSA administers on its own account are paid separately, as I indicated earlier, from the ones that the ZNPF pays. Now, the payment of the amounts on each window is obviously in accordance with the rules of each particular fund that is being operated. As regards the question on whether the amount is adequate or not, I would say that the most important thing is that the funds pay according to the rules that we agreed upon and, as far as that is concerned, the answer is yes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, NAPSA has invested a lot of money in real estate.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the ministry is asking the members who have contributed a lot of money to NAPSA and which money, in turn, has been used to build flats where, like in Ndola, they charge K185,000 for a three-bedroomed flat and K165,000 for a two bedroomed flat. This payment should be made three months in advance.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the investment that the funds have made must be protected. So, renting out these properties must be in such a way that adequate income is derived because the same members that we are talking about are the beneficiaries of the incomes from these properties. Now, if we rent them out at rates that are very low, it means that in due course, when somebody retires and asks for their payments, obviously the amount that they are going to be paid is also going to be low. So, in short, the answer is that it is in the interest of the members of this fund that these investments generate as much income as possible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, NAPSA has received K708 billion as interest from the banks from 2002 to date. On the other hand, NAPSA has paid out K77 billion from 2002 to date to the beneficiaries. Can the hon. Minister inform this House how many beneficiaries have not been paid to date and how much is involved?

Madam Deputy Speaker: That was the principal question and I think the answer was given yesterday.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, only recently did the Ministry of Works and Supply hand over the property opposite Lusaka Central Police Station to NAPSA for construction of a shopping mall. Can the hon. Minister assure us that the involvement in that project will not affect the release of benefits to people who are supposed to get their benefits from NAPSA?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I explained yesterday that the way a pension fund is run is such that the money that comes in at any particular time should not be seen as money that must be used to pay people who are retiring. Those are two separate decisions that must be made. So, at any given time, an investment must be made in such a way that the interest of the people being paid is not only secured but also secure the interest of people who are going to be paid in future. So, the people who are retiring today will not necessarily be disadvantaged from the investment that is coming.  At the same time, we must see this investment as something that secures the interests of people who are going to be paid in the future.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, as far as I am concerned, NAPSA just collects money and keeps it on behalf of the workers so that when they retire, they do not become destitute and are given money promptly. Now, I would like the hon. Minister to tell this House what the Government intends to do to NAPSA over its failure to pay ex-workers promptly when the money is just being kept by the authority. I would like the hon. Minister to come out clearly unlike the way he was explaining yesterday.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thought the statement that I have just made now was addressing the concerns that the hon. Member has just raised and, therefore, with your permission, I would like to say that at the end of today’s Sitting I can give the hon. Member a copy of my statement for him to go through.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The statement will definitely be laid on the Table and it will be published as part of the proceedings of today and, therefore, hon. Members can read further.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MUSELE/MUKUMBI LOCAL COURTS

461. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Justice:

(a) when Musele Local Court in Solwezi District would be officially opened; and

(b) when staff would be posted to Chief Mukumbi’s Local Court in Solwezi District.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office: Madam Speaker, Musele Local Court in Solwezi District is already officially open since a warrant was issued in June, 1966 pursuant to Section 4 of the Local Courts Act.

There are staff working at Chief Mukumbi’s Local Court in Solwezi District as follows:

(i) one Court Justice;
(ii) two Court Messengers; and
(iii) one Court Messenger is acting as Court Clerk.

I thank you, Madam.

CONSTRUCTION OF A HIGH SCHOOL AT CHIEF CHIBWIKA’S AREA

462. Mr Katuka asked the Minister of Education whether the Government had plans to assist the people of Chief Chibwika’s area construct a high school.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members ought to listen to the answers being given by the hon. Ministers.

May the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Sinyinda: … there are no immediate plans to construct a high school in Chief Chibwika’s area.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Since there are no immediate plans to construct a high school in Chief Chibwika’s area, where does he expect the children who are supposed to be at this high school to go?

Mr Sinyinda: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform this House that in the same area, this working Government is constructing a boarding school where all those children within that area can go to.

I thank you, Madam.

MWAMBASHI-SABINA BRIDGE

463. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) how much money was spent on the repair of the Mwambashi-Sabina Bridge on the Chingola-Kitwe Road from 2004 to 2007; and

(b) how much money was currently required to repair and improve the condition of the bridge at (a) above in order to prevent another Chinyunyu disaster.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Madam Speaker, the maintenance of the Mwambashi-Sabina Bridge located on the Kitwe-Chingola Road was awarded to G.M. International at a contract sum of K402,844,000.00 on 7th December, 2004. However, upon further investigations of the structural integrity of the bridge, additional works amounting to K49 million were carried out to bring the revised contract amount to K451,844,000.00.

The Road Development Agency intends to appoint a consultant to carry out a detailed and comprehensive structural assessment of the Mwambashi-Sabina Bridge. The estimated cost for carrying out repairs on the bridge is about K3.8 billion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it is now confusing to learn that they are appointing a consultant at this particular time. May I find out when the consultant is supposed to be appointed because the way the situation is on the bridge, it is a near disaster such that at any time, we might have a serious accident on that bridge.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the interest that the hon. Member is showing on that particular bridge. However, I can assure him that the relevant authorities are keeping an eye on it and there is no immediate threat to the safety of the public. If such a situation arises, everything will be done to ensure the public are out of harm’s way.

However, these are on-going projects and as soon as a consultant is appointed, the work will be carried out.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nsanda: (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Madam Speaker, I wish to raise a point of order on the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. There are four of them and I am not sure whether protocol requires that we raise it on all four at once or we can single one out.

I think it was Dr Chituwo, if I am allowed to single him out. A week ago, I asked a question following the ministerial statement that the hon. Minister made concerning the delivery of basal dressing fertiliser. I gave an example of the settlement known as Kasengwa in Chongwe, which is only 28 kilometres away. I pointed out to the hon. Minister that there was no single bag of fertiliser at the time I was speaking. The hon. Minister responded that they were aware of the need for timely delivery of agricultural inputs including D-Compound, which was something he needed to follow up because, according to him, there was not a single district that had received completely no D-compound or basal dressing. If there was a small section in Chongwe without inputs that could be corrected in the shortest possible time.

I checked with Kasengwa an hour and half ago, and they still have not seen any bag of D-compound and there are several areas of Chongwe where this is the case. I wonder if the hon. Minister is in order to be – perhaps, he is not so much misleading us as allowing himself to be misled by his own staff who are telling him everything is in order when it is clearly not in order. We have very good communications with these areas and the fertiliser distribution is well behind. Is he in order or are they all in order?

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Chair is also wondering on the point of order whether it is on the number of ministers or on the statement made by the hon. Minister in response to the question that he had earlier asked in the House. The Chair would like to guide as follows:

According to the statement that has been referred to by the hon. Member for Lusaka Central, Dr Scott, the hon. Minister said he was aware that every district had received basal dressing fertiliser. He went on to say if there were areas like the area mentioned that did not have, he would follow it up. The Chair would like to take it that it is not misleading because the hon. Minister talked of districts. He committed himself to follow up, and this you can only raise as a follow up as to whether he followed up or not, but there was no misleading. If he had said every place had fertiliser, it would be misleading, but he said every district. The Chair would like to believe that Chongwe has also, but as to whether it has reached that point or not, the hon. Minister may have to follow up. Therefore, he was in order to refer to the districts, but he needs to follow up on those places.

May the hon. Member for Chimwemwe, please, continue.

Mr Nsanda: Madam Speaker, getting back to the hon. Minister of Works and Supply on the same bridge that borders my constituency, I remember from far back that the bridge was given less tonnage for vehicles to pass through because the bridge is not good. It is cracked. How many tonnes or tonnage of vehicles are allowed to pass through now?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, it is not possible for me to give you the tonnage allowed, but I can assure you that the authorities who manage these roads are conscious of the fact that the tonnage must be such that it will not destroy that bridge. I know you are a transporter. Those buses of yours are partly the ones that are destroying the roads.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, all I can assure him is that we are doing everything possible to ensure that bridge does not collapse when his buses are passing through.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, arising from the answer the hon. Minister has given in terms of tonnage, may I know when the Government will classify cargo that is supposed to be transported by railway? At the moment, trucks that are supposed to carry cargo specifically for our industries - extremely heavy cargo - are damaging our roads. May I know when Government will make a classified removal of cargo? When will cargo specified for railways go by railway to avert the continuous damage of our roads at the expense of our neighbouring countries that are ruining our roads?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is aware that this is one of the vexing problems that we have had on the maintenance of our road infrastructure. The railway network has got some teething problems and because of the lack of capacity to transport cargo by railway, many people have resorted to using road transport. You will appreciate that we have an economy that must run and on the basis of that, it will always be difficult, as of now, to restrict cargo specifically to rail transport because, in so doing, we will end up injuring our economy. We will continue to take measures through weigh bridges and toll gates to try and mitigate the impact of this wear and tear. There is no way we can regulate at the moment unless we can ensure that our rail network is very efficient and has the capacity to accommodate that cargo.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what he meant when he said there are no threats or danger to this bridge when just a few months ago, they went to put up more than fifteen speed humps because the bridge is badly cracked as you come from Kitwe. Where do you get your information that there is no danger?

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I have difficulties. However, when you are requested to reduce your speed, it is a mark of responsibility. You are not expected to go over a bridge at top speed when you are carrying heavy cargo. I think that is the only way you can protect the structural integrity of these structures. It is by ensuring that the people who use these roads are using them with caution and by so doing, it was a mistake. I do not understand because after all, my able hon. Deputy Minister did read to you that an inspection was done and an additional sum was added to ensure that the bridge is safe enough and that at an appropriate time, when we think that it must now be addressed as a whole, it will be done. I can assure the hon. Member for Roan that on our part, we are doing everything possible and so to ask you to limit your speed is not an indication that we do not care.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister mention weigh bridges and toll gates. May I know if we have toll gates in Zambia?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I know the hon. Member knows that there are no toll gates but this is a call that this House has been asking for, and saying that the Government must introduce toll gates to mitigate the impact of heavy trucks on our roads. As soon as we are ready, legislation will be brought to this House so that toll gates can be introduced. They cannot just be introduced without any legislation and so I would like to assure him that at an appropriate time, it will be done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, arising from what the hon. Minister has said with regard to humps that are put on our roads, is it now Government policy to put humps on the highway as we have seen between Lusaka and Kabwe that wherever people bring a small ntemba along the road, they go and put up speedy humps which endanger the lives of the travelling public and bring much wear and tear to the motor vehicles? Is it now policy that anybody who comes and starts ka little shop along the road, you are going to put up these huge humps?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I do not know who is a danger to whom between a speeding motorist or a hump.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I do believe that when they put up a hump, they are trying to protect the lives of the Zambian people. I know it is an irritation and inconvenience to the speeding public but, at the end of the day, the intentions are good. We do hope that when they put speed limits on the roads, these can be observed but oftentimes, these are ignored. When the speed limit is 80 kilometres per hour, you see a person driving at over 120 kilometres per hour and this is why the communities in those areas approach authorities to seek protection because of these speeding drivers. So, I do not think the hon. Member’s complaint is against humps. Your complaint must be against speeding drivers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MOPANI COPPER MINES PLC MINERS’ TERMINAL BENEFITS KEPT IN TRUST FUND

464. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) when the terminal benefits kept in trust for the miners working for the Mopani Copper Mines Plc would be given to them;

(b) how much interest had accrued on the terminal benefits at (a) above;

(c) on what terms the terminal benefits were being kept in trust; and

(d) whether the Government or the Mopani Copper Mines Plc was responsible for paying the miners the dues above.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms Kapwepwe): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that at the time of privatisation, the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) and the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) Negotiating Team agreed with the new investors that those employees who crossed over to Mopani Copper Mines Plc from ZCCM Limited on 31st March, 2000, would have their terminal benefits held in trust. It was further agreed that such employees would only get their benefits for services provided to ZCCM through the following exit modes:

(i) retirement;
(ii) medical discharge;
(iii) redundancy;
(iv) death in service;
(v) dismissal; and
(vi) resignation.

However, in the case of dismissal and resignation, the benefits held in trust were to be discharged by the ZCCM Trust Fund created for such a purpose.

The rest of the exit modes would be and are being handled by Mopani Copper Mines Plc. Thus, terminal benefits kept in trust will only be given to employees at exit from the Mopani Copper Mines Plc employment, subject to the above mentioned modes.

Madam Speaker, during privatisation, it had been agreed that in order to safeguard the interests of the miners, the calculated net kwacha terminal benefits were to be dollarised to ensure that the value was not eroded by inflation.

Madam, as the terminal benefits are designated in US dollars and the integrity of the amounts has been maintained, the Trust Deed, (the regulation that governs the ZCCM Trust Fund) did not take into account any interest payable.

Madam Speaker, I wish to further inform this august House that no physical cash was transferred into the ZCCM Trust Fund and, therefore, no bank account exists. The ZCCM-IH sources the funds to effect the payment on a quarterly basis to those who are eligible.

Madam Speaker, the calculated terminal benefits are governed by the Trust Deed, together with administrative rules registered at the Ministry of Lands and administered by an appointed Board of Trustees which comprises the following institutions.

 (i) Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development;

 (ii) Ministry of Finance and National Planning;

 (iii) Ministry of Labour of Social Security;

 (iv) Mineworkers’ Union of Zambia; and

 (v) ZCCM-IH Plc.

Madam Speaker, from inception, the ZCCM Trust Fund Secretariat has been within and at the administrative cost of ZCCM-IH who has appointed an official to discharge these functions. As per ZCCM-IH Strategic Plan, it is envisaged that with the funds allowing, a fully-fledged autonomous Trust Fund management would be engaged later this year. The Secretariat would thus, move out of ZCCM –IH.

Madam Speaker, the exit mode determines whether Mopani Copper Mines Plc owes ZCCM-IH and (not the Government) pays out the terminal benefits to the miners.

However, to date the Government has contributed to the fund a total of US$4 million to assist ZCCM-IH to meet the obligations as they fall due. The funding has been treated as a loan to ZCCM-IH and, therefore, repayable to the Government.

Madam Speaker, it is important to emphasise that for exit modes of retirement, medical discharge, redundancy and death in Service, benefits are payable by Mopani Copper Mines Plc and those through dismissal and resignations are payable by ZCCM-IH, through the ZCCM Trust Fund.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Quality!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, why can the Government not negotiate with Mopani Copper Mines Plc so that the miners can be paid their terminal benefits now, as keeping the money in trust has not helped matters in that miners are not able to take their children to school as they are living in abject poverty?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, as we are all aware, pensions are paid to people on retirement. A pension is supposed to take care of one after one’s working life. If you are paid before retirement, how are you going to sustain yourself after you have stopped earning regular income?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the decision to put that money in a Trust Fund was a unilateral decision by the Government which is against the rights of the miners?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I believe that this matter was discussed and agreed upon at that particular time. I do not think it will be useful for us to re-open an issue that was concluded a long time ago.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Kambwili: Aah, quality abantu balesusha.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, with the indications from these mining houses that they want to reduce labour, what measures is your ministry going to put in place to ensure that these mining houses do not dismiss people on flimsy grounds so that they pass the buck on to the Government to pay off the people who are being dismissed?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I do not think we can categorise redundancy as dismissal. That falls under a different category. In other words, if people were to be laid off, that would not be a liability of the Government under this arrangement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, miners are represented by the Mineworkers Union of Zambia. However, the union was not involved in this decision. Now that the Government is aware that the miners want their money back, what are you doing to make sure that these miners get their money rather than continue keeping it in the Trust Fund against their will?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I have already indicated that people get paid when they reach retirement age.

Mr Kambwili: They want their money!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: It is the responsibility of the Government to ensure that pensions are paid at the correct time because if they are paid at the wrong time, for instance at 30 or 35 years, what happens for the period of 40 years to the time when the person dies? The correct way that these things are administered is that people are paid at the correct time.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr D. Mwila: It is not a pension!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! {mospagebreak}

ACCOMMODATION FOR DRUG ENFORCEMENT COMMISSION OFFICERS

465. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how much the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) owed landlords whose houses were being rented by its officers of the rank of Investigations Officer and above;

(b) for how long the debt at (a) above had been outstanding; and

(c) what measures the DEC had instituted to clear the outstanding debt.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, in responding to the question by Hon. D. Mwila who has a passion for the Drug Enforcement Commission, I wish to inform the House that as at 30th May, 2008, the DEC owed landlords whose houses were rented by its officers of the rank of Investigations Officer and above an amount of K856 915,594.07.

The debt accumulated from 2006. This arose from the fact that provinces like Lusaka, the Copperbelt and Central have limited funding against the prevailing high rental charges coupled with a bigger number of officers.

The debt accumulated because of the increase in the number of staff and expansion in the operations.

Madam, this had necessitated the acquisition of more houses and the need for more house rentals to be paid.

The DEC ensures that the value of houses is in accordance with ranks so that no officer is paid more than his or her entitlement to avoid accumulation of house rentals.

Madam Speaker, secondly, the House may wish to know that the Ministry of Home Affairs has embarked on a programme of procuring staff houses for its departments, including the DEC.

For example, the ministry has procured two houses from the National Housing Authority which will be handed over soon. This is an on-going exercise.

Madam Speaker, the ministry is also in the process of procuring 23 houses in Solwezi, some of which will be given to the DEC.

A plot has been acquired in Chipata where the DEC hopes to build a block of flats for its officers and other security officers in the ministry.

Finally, the other measure instituted to clear the debt is that in the 2009 Budget, we have introduced a budget line for outstanding bills. Funding on this budget line will go towards the payment of arrears on rentals and utility bills.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs has started constructing houses for police officers. I would like to find out from him whether they have similar intentions for the officers at the Drug Enforcement Commission.

Madam Deputy Speaker: That was part of the answer. Let us listen carefully when the answers are being given.

KAMANI BRIDGE

Mr D. Mwila asked the Ministry of Works and Supply:

(a) when the Government would repair the Kamani Bridge in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency;

(b) how much the repair works would cost; and

(c) when the Government last worked on the bridge.

Mr Ndalamei: Madam Speaker, in response, I wish to inform this august House that the ministry, through the Roads Development Agency (RDA), in July 2008, submitted a list of washed-away river crossing structures, inclusive of estimated costs for their repairs in Luapula Province to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit for funding. Madam, the works would be advertised and procured upon confirmation of availability of funds.

In response to part (b) of the question, the estimated cost for the repair of the bridge on the Kamani-Mutipila Road is about K110,939,084.24.

With regard to part (c) of the question, I wish to state that the previous maintenance of the bridge was carried out about ten years ago.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

AGRICULTURAL EXTENSION OFFICERS IN MFUWE PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

467. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how many agricultural extension officers were currently in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency, chiefdom by chiefdom; and

(b) how many bags of fertiliser were sent to the constituency in the 2007/2008 farming season.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House as follows:

(a) currently, there are eight agricultural extension officers in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency and they are located as follows:

Chiefdom No. of Extension Officer
Mukungule  3
Mpumba  5
Nabwalya  -
Total  9

(b) Since its inception in the 2002/2003 farming season, the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) allocates inputs by district and not by constituency. However, with regard to Mpika District, where Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency falls, a total of 948 metric tonnes of fertiliser was allocated in the 2007/2008 farming season.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out when the ministry will send some agricultural extension officers to Chief Nabwalya since the hon. Deputy Minister has not indicated any number of extension officers in this chiefdom.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Madam Speaker, I would like to make a correction regarding the answer that was given by the hon. Deputy Minister. In fact, there is already one extension officer in Chief Nabwalya’s area.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MPUMBA CONSERVATION TRUST

468. Mr Malama asked the Minister of Lands when the ministry would approve land for the Mpumba Conservation Trust in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Hamir): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Lands is still assessing suitability of the applied for 8,910 hectares for other agricultural uses. A decision shall be made upon conclusion of the assessment by the Ministry of Agricultural and Co-operatives.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why it has taken so long to approve this land which the community had applied for and why it did not take long to approve the land for Mutinondo, a white man, who owns land there.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Mukuma): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Deputy Minister has already mentioned, normally, we do not work on our own, but consult a lot of stakeholders. It also depends on how fast we get replies from the stakeholder. In this case, we requested for comments and advice from the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, but we have not yet received any response from them. However, I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that immediately we get the response, we will act on it. In the other issue, it is probably because we got the answer in good time and, therefore, we were able to act in good time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, I do not have an interest in this matter, but I did have an involvement on it as a consultant for the Worldwide Fund for Nature. The purpose of this conservation trust and its land application is to empower the community to do game conservation with the same rights and privileges accorded to outsiders who come in and obtain game ranches. The Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) looked at the project and approved it. Could the hon. Minister, please, undertake to look into this business and give the villagers the same privileges and power just like the ones given to outsiders?

Madam Speaker: That was a comment!

GOVERNMENT’S DEBT TO FARMERS

469. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how much money the Government owed the farmers who made upfront payments for the fertiliser under the FSP during the 2007/2008 farming season, but did not receive any fertiliser;

(b) how much had been refunded so far; and

(c) how much is still outstanding and from which districts.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member for Gwembe, I would like to inform this august House that the Government owes some farmers a total of K219,134,400.00. The affected farmers had made advance payment for the fertiliser under the FSP during the 2007/2008 farming season, but did not receive any fertiliser. This money was deposited into the FSP collection account by farmers in anticipation of the second allocation of inputs.

Madam Speaker, so far, K1,328,868,200 out of the total of K1,548,002,600 has been refunded to the farmers, leaving  a balance as at (a) above.

Madam, a total of K219,134,400 is still outstanding and it is broken down as follows:

District  Amount (K)

Kalomo    53,524,200

Chama     52,720,200

Petauke         112,890,000

Total              219,134,400

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, is the Government partly to blame for the hunger situation that is currently prevailing in the districts that the hon. Minister has mentioned, where farmers paid for fertiliser which they did not receive? Could the hon. Minister also tell us whether they are ready to pay the farmers interest for the loss of crops?

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, it is regrettable that this situation arose out of anticipation that there would be a second lot of inputs to be given to farmers. With regard to whether the hunger situation that is there is also the responsibility of the Government, well, I think it is a very well-known factor that the weather was not kind to us in the last season and hence contributed significantly. In fact, the hon. Member of Parliament for Gwembe is aware that there are thirty-nine districts that were declared as disaster areas requiring relief. With regard to the issue of interest, this money has not been put in a bank where it will accrue interest. So, the farmers will be refunded the initial amounts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, the figures given to us by the hon. Minister are quite colossal to the peasant farmers that anticipated to buy fertiliser last season. It is twelve months since that failed transaction happened. Can the hon. Minister categorically tell us why it has taken this long for the farmers to get their money back?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair would like to ask the House to consult very quietly. This sitting involves listening as well.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, it is regretted that almost a year along the line, this money has not been refunded, but this is one clear picture of the bureaucracy when this money gets into the stream of money having gone into one account. All I can say is that we will, in the shortest possible time, refund this money.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, we have been informed by the MMD Government that there is manna pertaining to fertiliser this year. Why can they not consider allocating fertiliser to these unfortunate farmers instead of refunding the money to them as they need the inputs?

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, the issue was the refund. If that were the issue from the very beginning when planning, I am sure it would have been taken care of. Currently, the allocations of fertiliser have been done already and payments have been made. Therefore, it would be unfair because the farmers would have to pay twice because they have already done so. This is why this money will have to be refunded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, each recipient from the Fertiliser Support Programme is supposed to get four bags of Urea, four bags of D Compound and a 20 kilogram of seed. Is the hon. Minister aware that beneficiaries are now receiving as low as two bags of fertiliser and most of them are being refunded the money in this year’s allocation? If he is aware, what is he doing about it?

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, it is quite clear that the demand for support in this programme is high. From our calculations, what the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan has said is what should be the case. However, each co-operative society can decide if they want to spread this around within their society among the members to divide this allocation. This really depends upon each co-operative society and if that is what is being done, then that is the decision that they have arrived at, at that level.

LUSAKA STOCK EXCHANGE

470. Mr Ntundu asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) whether the Government played any supervisory role in the administration of the Lusaka Stock Exchange (LuSE);

(b) who the bankers of LuSE were;

(c) what the monthly wage bill of LuSE was; and

(d) whether LuSE had recorded any profits from inception to date and, if so, how much.

Ms Kapwepwe: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning plays a supervisory role in the administration of LuSE through the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) which is answerable to the Minister of Finance and National Planning. This is done by monitoring on a semi annual and annual basis, performance and details of the Exchange that LuSE sends to the ministry.

Madam, currently the bankers of LuSE are Stanbic Bank Zambia. The monthly wage bill of the Lusaka Stock Exchange is K96.6 million.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Lusaka Stock Exchange has not started making profits yet and it is being subsidised by the Government through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister that K96.6 million is the monthly wage bill for LuSE, how much is the Chief Executive getting and how many employees are there for them to get K96.6 million?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I do not have those details, but I can provide them to the hon. Member of Parliament tomorrow.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, arising from the answer that has been given by the hon. Minister who is facing somewhere else and who, I hope, is listening…

The Deputy Speaker: Order! That is not your role. Just ask your question.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, may I find out why LuSE does not release any financial report despite the Government having the supervising role. When is LuSE going to publish a report so that we are able to see whether it is really true that they have not been making profit from inception?

 

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, not only do we know that the profits have not been made, we also know that at the moment, they are about to cover their costs. As regards to the financial statements, we can provide those.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

________

MOTION

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO.1 OF 2008

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Supply, to consider Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2008.

Madam Chairperson, I am a bearer of a message from His Excellency, the President, recommending favourable consideration of the Motion that I now lay on the Table.

Dr Musokotwane laid the Paper on the Table.

Hon. MMD Members: Quality!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the Supplementary Estimates are prepared in accordance with Article 115, 2(d) of the Zambian Constitution. By virtue of the authority conveyed in the article of the Constitution quoted above, I have the honour to present the Supplementary Estimates covering the Financial Year 2008.

The total Supplementary request stands at K2,575.1 billion. Of this amount, a sum of K416.7 billion represents savings declared within the approved budget, while K39.8 billion is in respect of funds released to institutions towards the end of the Financial Year 2007, but spent in 2008, the so called carry-overs. A further sum of K126 billion represents funds that were released directly to institutions during the year, by the co-operating partners, but were not originally budgeted for. Savings arising from the constraining of certain budget lines and beefing up others amount to K1,141.5 billion. The balance of K851.1 billion represents the required provision to be financed through domestic borrowing.

Madam Speaker, allow me now to highlight some of the areas where the Supplementary provisions are required. Under my ministry, a sum of K458.3 billion has been allowed to cover payments of 15 per cent salary and wage awards to civil servants, effective January, 2008, as agreed with the unions. Of this amount, K323.9 billion was provided for under the Medium Term Pay Reform, whilst, K109.5 billion is a Supplementary. As you may be aware, Madam, the Government awarded salary increments to public service workers, including the leaders, at 15 per cent, which proved to be higher than the 9 per cent budgeted for. The remainder includes funds received from the Global Funds and funds received, specifically, from the Japanese Government, which are not in the 2008 budget.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives has been allocated a sum of K568.8 billion. Of this amount, K308.8 billion will be applied on the procurement and distribution of farming inputs under the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP). These extra resources had to be provided in view of the increased cost of fertilisers and to increase the coverage of beneficiaries. This measure was required in order to insulate the country from food or grain shortages in view of the looming world food crisis. The balance of K260 billion will be used to import maize grain, by the Government, to cover a looming shortage of maize in some parts of the country. This is an important and critical decision that the Government has had to make in order to avert hunger, and prevent loss of life as a result of lack of food.

Madam Chairperson, under Vote 21 ─ Loans and Investment - we have allowed a sum of K 301.7 billion to cater for recapitalisation of parastatal companies. Notable is the provision of K158.5 billion to the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) in order to assist the company with its Power Rehabilitation Programme. Extra funds had to be given to Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) to pay terminal benefits and rehabilitation costs while the same was done for former Lint Company of Zambia (LINTCO) workers. Part of the resources had to be provided to address the operational problems of TAZAMA Pipeline.

Madam Chairperson, under Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, a sum of K295.2 billion has been provided to cover, mainly, payments of domestic interest whose costs increase due to the rise in interest rates. Part of the Supplementary provision is meant to cover external debt service.

Madam Chairperson, for the Electoral Commission, a provision of K218.7 billion has been allowed to cover the expenses on the just-conducted Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government Bye-elections.

Madam Chairperson, a total sum of K108.7 billion has been allocated to the Ministry of Health. The bulk of this amount, which is about K98.2 billion, has come from co-operating partners and will go towards payment of retention allowances to medical personnel, purchase of drugs and related medical requisites for district health institutions country wide. Our Supplementary allocations have been provided under Cabinet Office towards the cost of the State funeral of our late President. Other institutions that were involved in the maintenance of peace of during the Presidential Bye-election, such as the Zambia Police, also had their budget provisions supplemented.

Madam Chairperson, because there was no matching excise revenue to finance the Supplementary provisions, funding to a number of the Supplementary budget lines has been constrained and the Government had to borrow in order to fund these extra budgetary requirements.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity. First of all, I would like to commend the Government for coming up with the Supplementary Estimates this time of the year. Normally, it comes quite late. However, I would like to raise a number of issues on the Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2008.

Madam Chairperson, the first issue is the style of presentation. By nature, the Supplementary Estimates must be understood in the same way that you understand the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure. There are must be clear and full disclosure of the people’s money.

Madam Chairperson, in the Supplementary Estimates of No. 1 of 2008, you will see that there are some figures that are not disclosed.

If you turn to page 1 of the document, you will see that there are two categories of savings. One category is declared and you can see where the saving is made. For example, at Head 02 – Office of the Vice-President – Activity 01, you will see that there was a saving declared or applied from the Contingency Fund, Head No. 99 of the budget. Therefore, it is very easy. When I looked at the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 2008, I saw what money they we knocking out. However, there is note 2, which says ‘savings from various Government institutions;. Therefore, there are two classes of savings.

Madam Chairperson, to make my point clear, I would like to refer you to the last page of the Estimates and you will see that there are two categories of savings. One category of saving is saving declared to the amount of K416,695,728,958. That is the money that is traceable because you know where it is coming from and you also know where the Government made a saving. However, the second category referred to as savings from various Government institutions amounting to K1,141,525,470,622, cannot be traced. Why is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning showing us that where K416,695,728,958, came from, but it is not showing us where the K1,141,525,470,622 is being saved. What is the reason for that?

Madam Chairperson, I have gone through all these figures and I have seen that where votes are indicated, figures tally with the K416,525,470,622, but it makes it impossible for any one to track down where K1,141,525,470,622 is being saved. Therefore, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning comes up to wind up debate on this matter, I would like him to indicate to this House where he is getting K1,141,525,470,622 to apply as Supplementary Expenditure to other votes

Madam Chairperson, secondly, the Budget for 2008 has note No. 2 from the Secretary to Treasury, which says and I quote:

‘For Budget 2008, the following are the guiding principles to guide the Budget implementation process:

(a) MPSS may transfer funds between programmes or activities, but no transfer of funds to and from Personal Emoluments and Poverty Reduction Programmes (PRP) will be allowed except with Parliamentary approval.

Madam Chairperson, as all of us know, the Government is coming to us today after the fact that they have already effected this expenditure. They are coming to us and say can you approve retrospectively when, actually, in January, February and March you told us that we have no power to move money from PRP. I want to indicate to you that money from PRP was irregularly transferred against the guidelines given to spending ministries.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to draw your attention to page 32 of the Supplementary Estimates. Under the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training - Department of Planning and Development – Programme 10 – Purchase of Equipment for Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, you will see that there is a provision for buying of equipment which is a noble thing to do. However, where is the money amounting to K2,082797,516, which is an addition of K1.5 billion coming from? This money is coming from Head 65/04 Unit 3, Programme 10 and Activity 1 - Rehabilitation of Evelyn Hone College, from the Poverty Reduction Programme. The guidelines are that they are not allowed to get money from Poverty Reduction Programmes to anything else. Who has given them the authority, now, to use the K1.5 billion which was meant to be used to rehabilitate Evelyn Hone College? That is not enough.

Madam Chairperson, another example, on the same page, is K1.7 billion, which the hon. Minister for Science, Technology and Vocational Training, Mr Daka, pleaded and asked for in this House in March and this House allocated the K2.5 billion under the pretence that he was going to use it for TEVET support programmes. Today, he is declaring that K1.7 billion of the K2.5 billion is irrelevant. Instead, it must go to pay outstanding bills at the National Institute of Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR) - money meant for poverty reduction. This House approved money to go to youths and yet, today, the hon. Minister is saying he does not need it, but instead, it will go to pay the outstanding bills at the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research.

 Mr Kambwili: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Your may also wish to know that when we debated the value of putting money for youth development, some people argued that that money shall reach the youth. To date, it has not reached them. Even the little money that we kept in this vocational ministry for youth development are smaller amounts of only K1.5 billion which has been taken away by that hon. Minister against the will of this House.

Mr Lubinda pointed at the Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Daka).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, he has taken away K1.5 billion through the Supplementary Estimates and given it away to pay outstanding bills. How come, in January, my dear friends, you were not aware of the outstanding bills at NISIR? Why did you not include that in the budget for you to get the approval of the people? Instead, you hoodwinked us by saying that this money was going to youth empowerment. In November, you come back to us and say twamunamani – we have lied to you. We want the money for other purposes. That is not fair and it is not how you should treat Parliament. The guidelines are written by your own Secretary to the Treasury that you are not allowed to move money from Poverty Reduction Programmes or Personal Emoluments to any other matter except with approval by this House. Those are your guidelines. That is not enough.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether he realises that there are a lot of inconsistencies in these Estimates. I will give another example. This matter is a Constitutional matter. Head 99, Programme 01 – Debt Servicing. Well, we will come to that. 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to draw your attention to Page 66, Vote 99 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, Sub-head 02 – Bilateral, Programme 08 – Non-Paris Club, Activity 007 – China – Exim Bank – K27,095,656,160. Early this year, Hon. Magande, when he was Minister of Finance and National Planning, came and pleaded with this House to allocate K27 billion to go towards meeting the constitutional obligations to pay Exim Bank. On that page, Madam, these Estimates indicate that over and above the K27 billion, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has spent K625,886,281. This is alright and so be it. However, can you, please, draw your attention to Page 24 of the Estimates?

On Page 24, Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Health, a very important ministry … Sorry!

Mr Lubinda flipped the pages of the Supplementary Estimates..

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Wait! Wait! I am coming.

Mr Chibombamilimo: Yakusoba!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mulekeni amishinine mwi mwikata pakanwa!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda continued flipping the pages of the Supplementary Estimates.

Mr Lubinda: Sorry, Madam, it is on page 14. I will come to page 24 later. On page 14, Programme 24 – Recapitalisation, Investments and Government Institutions – there, we see a colossal increase of K86,882,334,524. Where is that K86,882,334,524 coming from? It is coming from a number of votes, including Vote 99. You will recall that I referred to Vote 99 - Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.

Madam, Vote 99 - Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, Sub-head 02 – Bilateral, Programme 08 – Non-Paris Club, Activity 007 – China – Exim Bank, is exactly the same one I read. Above K27 billion, you need K627 million. However, here you are declaring savings of K3 billion. How possible is that? On one hand you want K27 billion, which we gave to you for Exim Bank while on the other hand, you want an extra K627 million but you are also saying from that same amount of K27 billion, you are getting out K3 billion. What sense does it make?

Mr Kambwili: Shame! Balosesheniko bamudala!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Besides that, where did you get the money from and where are you applying it? For example, today, someone was talking about building local courts. However, in these Estimates you have decided to get money from Chirundu Local Court and instead apply it to pave the driveway for the court in Lusaka. Is that a people-based budget? Is that a pro-poor budget? The people of Chirundu have been crying for a local court through which to dispense justice. This House allocated the money to you, but through this Supplementary Expenditure you are saying that the people of Chirundu do not deserve a local court. Instead, you get the money and put a tar road somewhere else. Is that fair, hon. Minister? If you are going to bring Supplementary Estimates for the sake of hoodwinking Parliament, then you should not bring the Budget to Parliament because it is a mockery.

I would like to end my submission by making a comment on the matter of contingency. During the Budget debate, you will recall that I raised the issue on how contingency funds are utilised in this country. Never at all was any money allocated to contingency used. This year, K41 billion of the K120 billion has been used. This is what we are talking about. If money is allocated to contingency and you need more money because of a shortfall, the first Vote to go to is the contingency. You do not start creating money from nowhere. You first exhaust your contingency before you start creating new funds.

I would like to implore the hon. Minister to ensure that this is obliged to and maintained so that the contingency is applied where the money is required.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, first of all I want to thank Hon. Lubinda for the passionate way in which he debates. No doubt, within a few months, I will be able to catch up with that kind of passion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Perhaps, even do better.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Let me begin with the issue that he raised about misleading Parliament in the manner by which we do the Supplementary Expenditure. Now, Article 115, 2(d) of the Constitution that I referred to earlier in my submission reads as follows:

“A warrant shall not be issued by the President authorising expenditure from the general revenues of the Republic unless provision does not exist for the expenditure and the President considers that there is such an urgent need to incur the expenditure, that it will not be in public interest to delay the authorisation of the expenditure until such a time a Supplementary Estimate can be laid before and approved by the National Assembly.”

In other words, Madam Chairperson, the Supplementary Expenditure that I laid before you is within the Constitution. From my understanding as a lay person, this is within the Constitution.

That being the case, you also quoted the issue of the Secretary to the Treasury having made guidelines on the shuffling around of the expenditure. Now, tell me, Hon. Lubinda, which one has more authority, the Constitution or the guidelines of the Secretary to the Treasury?

Laughter

Mr Lubinda raised his hand.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, my interpretation is that what we are doing is constitutional and we are not misleading the House in any way.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, there was an issue raised about taking money from the Poverty Reduction Programmes to programmes that are less necessary. I cannot go through line by line, but let me make some clarifications.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: The first one was that some of the money that is included in the Supplementary Estimates is for importing fertiliser so that people do not go hungry. Is that not poverty reduction?

Hon. PF Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister may address the Chair.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Will the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning continue, but address and face the Chair. Do not listen to what hon. Members are saying.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in a similar vein, the Government has said maize has to be imported so that hunger is prevented in this country. This is an issue of addressing hunger and it is a poverty reduction programme. Madam Speaker, we have indicated that some of this money was to cater for the Presidential Elections that took place.

Hon. Member: On a point of order, madam.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Will the hon. Minister continue, please?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, was it not absolutely necessary for this country to go through the election process as required by the Constitution? Madam Chairperson, each of these variations that were done were very carefully considered and in each case, it was discovered that, indeed, it was for public interest that the extra expenditures had to be incurred. Money had to be put where the mouths of the Zambian people are.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, let me also address an issue on the sources of the savings. Perhaps, this can best be done by making a clarification. The saving is as follows, in one case which Hon. Lubinda referred to, the smaller amount of the two that he referred to - the savings come about where an institution budgets for extra money for expenditure, but it turns out that what they need to spend is less. That is one category of savings.

In another category, the K1.4 trillion that he was talking about, this is a position where, say, we have a by-election to run. There are no other savings we can make since this programme costs money. The way to look for that money is to come back to the ministries and other institutions and say, ‘Sorry, we did not anticipate that we were going to go through this election and, therefore, although we budgeted …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! Let us listen to the hon. Minister.

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, although we budgeted for K100 million for your ministry, we are now going to cut this down to K60 million. Basically, there are two issues. The first is a programme which costs less and in the second case, we are just constraining expenditures everywhere so that we can accommodated the emergency that arises for us.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Go back to State House.

The Chairperson: Order!

Question put and agreed to.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 1 OF 2008

Vote 02/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 06/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters - K2,328,630,083).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, on this Vote, you read outside the unit total of K2,328,630,083. Now, there are figures under the Ministry of Home Affairs that come after the K2,328,630,083, and that is where I have a question. I heard you mention the figures because I was wondering if you are also going to mention the other figures.

The Deputy Chairperson: This relates to Vote 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters.

Mr Lubinda: Okey.

Vote 15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/05 – (Immigration Department – Human Resources and Administration Unit – K716,640,000)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, before we can approve the Supplementary Expenditure of K716,640,000 towards the procurement of motor vehicles, can I find out from the hon. Minister what necessitated the transferring of that amount from training of Immigration Officers as was initially approved by this House? What necessitated that?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, this supplementary is required to normalise funds released on this line, as a variation from another to facilitate procurement of vehicles. In this particular instance, the ministry felt that at that particular time the transport was more critical than training.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimate.

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/25 – (Missions Abroad – Tokyo – K1,200,000,000)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out why, from an allocation of K2,565,062,102 which the House allocated to Kualar Lumpar, K1,000,000,000 has now been transferred to Addis Ababa and K1,200,000,000 to Tokyo and, as a result, K2,200,000,000 was taken away from Kualar Lumpar. What does that imply? Is the mission closed in Kualar Lumpar?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, the mission has not yet been opened.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimate.

Vote 18/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 21/01 ─ (Loans and Investments ─ Ministry of Finance and National Planning K301,703,276,569).

Mr Lubinda: Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 24, Activity 003 ─ Other Financial Restructuring ─ K86,882,334,524. I seek an explanation from the hon. Minister concerning Head 99/01, Sub-Head 2, Programme 8, Activity 7, where a saving of K3,391,549,483 was declared. For the sake of Hon. Mulongoti, who does not seem to follow, it is on page 14.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Member clarify his question?

Mr Lubinda: Sir, what I would like is for the hon. Minister to explain how we made a saving on an amount that we were supposed to have paid to Exim Bank of China in the amount of K27 billion. How did we manage to make a saving of K3,391,549,483 which we have now allocated to Programme 24, Activity 003 ─ Other Financial Restructuring?

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair thought that the hon. Minister had explained this during the debate but, maybe, I have misunderstood.

Can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning explain further?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I think I did explain this in my earlier remarks.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Dr Musokotwane: The issue is like this. I explained three ways in which savings come about.

Mr Lubinda: List them.

Hon. MMD Members: Iwe!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let him explain.

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, I explained that there are three ways in which savings are made. Firstly, it is in cases where the expenditure was actually lower than what was estimated. Secondly, it is where we deliberately suppress expenditure elsewhere to give room to a particular expenditure and the third way is where money that was never approved in the National Budget comes in and most of the time this is from donors. So, each of these savings that we are going through came about through one of these three ways. Now, if we were to go through them line by line to know where each particular ngwee came from, it would be extremely cumbersome.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 21/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 26/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 26/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37/01 ─ (Ministry of Finance and National Planning ─ Human Resources and Administration K11,632,680,467).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek a clarification from the hon. Minister on Programme 10, Activity 006 ─ HIV/AIDS Mitigation ─ K10,464,680,467. Why should we have Supplementary Expenditure when there was no earlier budget allocation for this activity?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, this is an example of a case where money which was not budgeted for or anticipated has been sourced. In this case, donors have provided money for this activity and, in particular, it is from the Global Fund.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 37/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/02ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 78/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 87/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/03 ordered to  stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, let me refer you to the Supplement to Votes and Proceedings of Tuesday, 25th November, 2008 which is a corrigendum. You will see that on that one, it says under VOTE 98/01 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, page 45: To insert under Department 09 – (Agribusiness Marketing Department –Unit - 05 Agriculture Trade and Entrepreneurship Unit) which will come immediately after what will be agreed now and the total for that one is K260,000,000,000.

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 95/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 99/01 — (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure — Debt Service — External K66,426,639,947.00).

Mr Lubinda: I thank you Mr Chairperson. May I have a clarification on Vote 99 Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, Head 01 - External Debt Service, and 02 - Bilateral Unit, Programme 8, non-Paris Club, Activity 007, China, Exim Bank. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how possible it is that the very vote on which he declared a saving of K3,391,549,483.00 can also call for a supplementary allocation of K625,886,281.00.

Sir, I would like to refer the hon. Minister to the question I raised earlier on page 14 where he declared the saving on that particular vote.

Having said that, I would like to seek the indulgence of the hon. Minister that, because of this anomaly, the Supplementary Expenditure does not balance. May he, therefore, consider amending the total by increasing it with an amount that will take care of the K3 billion so-called saving and the K625 million excess expenditure on the same vote. Otherwise, he may consider deferring this for the technocrats to crunch the figures again so that they normalise that issue where …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … one vote has both a saving and an excess expenditure, which is not possible in any accounting terms.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You have asked the question. I am sure the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can respond to that.

Mr Sichilima: Ma doctor aya!

Dr Musokotwane: I thank you Mr Chairperson. There were two separate payments that were made on debt service and financial restructuring.

Hon. Lubinda: No!

Mr Sichilima: Nabakutuma iwe. Nibanani bakutumine?

Mr Mulyata: Listen, iwe!

Mr Kambwili: Niwe Minister, iwe?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have asked the question. It is in order that you wait for the answer, otherwise there is no point asking. Let us listen to the answer. If you have a follow-up question, that will be understood. However, do not intervene when he is answering.

Hon. Minister, can you, please, continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection. When I go back to the university, maybe, I will ask my brother (Mr Lubinda) there to come and join me.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, can you answer the question and, please, address the Chair.

Hon. Members: Hammer, hammer!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, there were two separate payments that were made on debt service and financial restructuring on this account.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I take the invitation by my brother seriously. I know that the invitation is not out of malice, but regard.

However, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how it is that one vote can have two payments. What accounts is that which allows for one vote to have two payments? The vote I am talking about is Vote 99/01, 02, 08 Activity 07. There is an amount of K27 billion that was allocated by Parliament in the Yellow Book. That is the K27 billion on which you have declared K3 billion savings. Again, it is against that K27 billion on which you are saying you require an additional K652 million.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Your question is understood.

Mr Lubinda: Which accounts is that which allows for two payments be made against one vote?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, the question has been put. The hon. Minister of Finance and National planning may answer.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Musokotwane paused before answering.

Mr Sichilima: Take your time.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairman, there were two votes that were used - one on External Debt, and the other on Head 21. However, as I said, …

Hon. Members: Hammer, hammer!

Dr Musokotwane: … these were two separate comments - one was for debt service…

Mr Magande stood up, indicating his wish to speak.

 Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … and the other one for financial restructuring.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. MMD Members: Aye!

Hon. PF Members: No!

Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

Mr Munaile: Let us have a division.

Mr Magande: What division are they talking about?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Vote 99/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Can I refer the hon. Members to the corrigendum, which I am sure you have. This corrigendum actually replaces what is on page 68. Just for additional information, where we have less saving declared, the figure which was written on my corrigendum was K118,634,862,662.00. It has come to my notice that, actually, that was a typographical error. The figure should read K2,118,634,862,662.00. With that clarification, the corrigendum’s total, therefore, is K851,137,597,207.00.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, I think it should be made clear because we may have different interpretations. I will report to Madam Speaker that the Committee has gone through the report of the Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2008 without amendment. I would like you to be clear because some of you might come later and say that we received some papers in that regard, but those were corrigenda. They were not amendments as such. I thought I should clear that issue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

_______{mospagebreak}

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2008 reported approved

Report adopted

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect hereto at a later date.

_______

MOTION

SECOND REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ASSURANCES

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Second Report of the Committee on Government Assurances for the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 20th November, 2008.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Katoka (Mwinilunga East): Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, your Committee were guided in their operations by their terms of reference as approved in the Standing Orders of the House. In this perspective, your Committee invited Permanent Secretaries of the relevant ministries and other Government agencies falling under their portfolio to appear before your Committee to give evidence and make clarifications on the outstanding assurances as contained in this second report of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, you will notice that your Committee’s second report deals with outstanding assurances only. These are assurances which have been outstanding from as far back as 1986. These assurances could not be closed either because action was not taken or little action was taken on them.

Madam, I am sure that hon. Members have read the report. Therefore, I will comment on a few outstanding assurances which will require immediate attention.

Management Development Division

Madam, on 15th February, 2005, the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President made the following assurance on the Floor of the House and I quote:

“Mr Chairperson, having undertaken study tours on this subject, the division intends to use this money on developing and implementing citizens’ charters in selected ministries and institutions before covering the rest of the Civil Service”.

Madam Speaker, the development and implementation of the Citizens’ Charter is a welcome development in the Public Service. Citizens’ charters are sometimes referred to as service delivery charters. These are formal systems put in place to empower citizens to put legitimate pressure on public service institutions to perform. They are actually social contracts entered into between the general public as clients and public service institutions as service providers.

Madam Speaker, your Committee are concerned that there has been a delay in the development and implementation of the citizens’ charters in the identified ministries. The concept of the citizens’ charters is a good idea as it serves to promote professionalism in the Public Service and reduce corruption. It is in this view that your Committee urge the Government to expedite the development and implementations of the Citizens’ Charter in all ministries and institutions by the end of this year.

Further, the Government is implored to work out publicity modalities for the members of the public to come to terms with the operations of the citizens charters and to, indeed, know what will happen if those elements in the Citizens’ Charter are not being adhered to by those concerned in the Public Service.

Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry

Madam Speaker, on 14th July, 1998, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry informed the House that in order to ease cross-border smuggling between Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo, then called Zaire, the two countries had held consultations on the normalisation of trade between them. 

Madam Speaker, informal trade in form of smuggling was rampant between the two countries, particularly in the 1980s and 1990s. This trade used to deprive the countries concerned of vital Government revenue which would have been channeled to developmental projects.

Madam Speaker, we are now being told that the past ten years have witnessed tremendous progress in bilateral trading between Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Your Committee observe that bilateral trade between Zambia and the DRC can be normalised through the trade blocks of Southern African Development Community (SADC) and Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA). In view of the foregoing, Madam, your Committee urge the Government to follow up the matter with the DRC Government to persuade them to sign the trade protocol agreements so that trade between the two countries can be formalised without further delay.

Ministry of Energy and Water Development

Madam Speaker, on 7th February, 1995, the hon. Minister assured the House that depending on the availability of funds, his ministry intended to develop more hydro power stations.

Your Committee, Madam, were informed about Shiwang’andu Mini Hydro Power Station in Chinsali, Zengamine Mini Hydro Power Station in Mwinilunga, Chitokoloki Mini Hydro Power Station in Zambezi and the four mini hydro power plants operated by ZESCO namely, Lusiwasi, Musonda Falls, Chishimba Falls and Lunzua. They were informed that these were being developed and rehabilitated to increase power supply to remote areas through the Rural Electrification Programme. This is a noble cause as it will translate into economic gain for the people countrywide, particularly those in rural areas. Electricity is a catalyst for economic development not only in urban areas, but also in rural areas.

Madam, your Committee’s earnest appeal to the Government is to reduce on load shedding countrywide and ensure that the mini-hydro power plants dotted all over the country are developed to full capacity to supplement electricity supply from major power stations.

Further, your Committee urge the Government to speed up the rehabilitation works going on at the major power stations, namely; Kariba North Bank, Kafue Gorge and Victoria Falls. They implore the Government to speed up the process of developing new power generation projects such as Itezhi-tezhi, Kariba North Bank Extension, Kalungwishi, Kafue Gorge Lower and Kabompo Gorge. If all these projects are undertaken, issues of load shedding, which greatly inconvenience the people, will be a thing of the past.

Ministry of Works and Supply

Madam Speaker, on 16th July, 1993, the hon. Minister informed the House that the Choma/Namwala Road would be tarred in phases as soon as the initial K90 million was released. He further, stated that the project would be implemented by the end of 1993.

Madam, this is 2008, fifteen years after the assurance was made. Up to now, all we hear are issues of detailed survey and detailed engineering designs for the same road year in year out. I am sure that the initial K90 million can now be translated into K90 billion or something closer to that. Your Committee observe, with concern, that the assurance has taken as very long time to be implemented. Sometimes, I wonder why assurances are made on the Floor of the House when the Government is not committing itself to ensuring that they implement the assurances within the time frame they give themselves. I emphasise that this august House should not be used for mere rhetoric or political expedience. We want to discuss real and serious business in this House.

Madam, there are other roads which your Committee observe that are being treated like the Choma/Namwala Road such as the Chadiza/Chipata Road,…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo:…Luampa/Machila Road and the Monze/Niko Road. Madam, mere rhetoric will not take this Government far in terms of development. I still insist that it is always important to match words with action.

Madam, I propose, therefore, that Parliament should find ways and means of holding accountable the hon. Ministers and hon. Deputy Ministers who make assurances on the Floor of the House, but fail to see to it that what they assure is implemented. If that is not done, many empty promises will be made freely and carelessly on the Floor of the House which will definitely undermine the dignity and authority of this august House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Tours

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, your Committee was privileged to undertake both foreign and local tours. For the foreign tour, the Committee went to Maputo in Mozambique to examine the renovations of the Maputo Mission buildings. This was a follow-up on the assurance under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on renovations of some mission structures. Your Committee observe that renovations of the chancery and other donated buildings cannot be done because the buildings are not yet on title. This is quite serious as over twenty years have elapsed since the Mozambican Government donated these buildings to the Zambian Government in appreciation of the role Zambia played in that country’s liberation struggle.

In view of the foregoing, your Committee are urging the Government to quickly move in and formalise the issuance of the title deeds for the chancery and other donated buildings with the sister country.

Madam, there is need for the two Heads of State to meet and seal this uncertainty over the issuance of title deeds for the donated buildings. It is only after the title deeds have been issued that renovations can commence. If Zambia is not careful, she can end up losing those buildings. The Mozambican Government can repossess them and that will be the end of the story. Madam Speaker, that could be a sad development.

Sir, another vexing issue that your Committee are disappointed with the Government over the Maputo Mission is that of keeping money in an account unused for a long time. Your Committee were informed that the money was meant for the renovation of the donated nine-storey building. However, the nine-storey building is not yet on title and, as such, the money cannot be used or varied for other purposes. This is quite worrying as your Committee feel that they money can be used to renovate the residence of the Ambassador which is on title and in dilapidated form. Keeping money unused for a long time is unhealthy as such money is tempting and prone to misuse. Your Committee urge the Government to authorise the Maputo Mission to utilise such funds on other equally important works such as the renovation of the Ambassador’s residence.

For local tours, your Committee toured various Government projects in Kasama, Mpulungu, Luwingu, Nchelenge, Mansa, Solwezi and Ndola. There were other assurances which your Committee were following up. For instance, in Mpulungu, your Committee followed up the assurance which was made by the Minister of Communications and Transport on 2nd March, 2005 that in the transport sector, the projects would include the construction of the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway Spur, which would connect the country to the Great Lakes Region.

Your Committee, Madam, observe that the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway Spur Project is viable, as it will contribute significantly to the economy of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Further, your Committee observe that the railway spur is all that is needed, if the road’s life span has to be increased because heavy loads will be transported by rail. Currently, the road from Kasama to Mpulungu is in a bad state. It has a lot of dangerous potholes.

Madam Speaker, in that perspective, your Committee urge the Government to honour the assurance of  constructing the railway spur from Nseluka, in Kasama, to Mpulungu, as soon as possible. Further, your Committee wish to advise the Government that since the construction of the railway spur is a multi-million dollar project, the Government should first invest in road maintenance before they can deal with a capital investment of that magnitude.

Madam Speaker, your Committee expressed great disappointment on the non-implementation, in full, of the Mansa/Luwingu Road. The Ministry of Works and Supply, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), indicated that they have re-gravelled the road. However, the road is still pathetic, to say the least. One would not imagine that it was ever re-gravelled. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply made an assurance on 6th March, 2001, and I quote:

“Mr Speaker, tarring the 340 Kilometre Mansa/Luwingu/Kasama Road to class 1 Bitumen standards starts this year, 2001, shortly after the rainy season ends. The design and the tender documentation have been fully completed. The estimated cost for the construction is US$70 million, and so far, the Government has sourced K5 billion for the project to get started.”

Madam Speaker, you will notice that the assurance was for the entire Mansa/Luwingu/Kasama Road. If the matter has experienced policy change, then this has not been explained to your Committee. Therefore, your Committee implore the Government to revisit this assurance and embark on tarring the whole stretch as assured, particularly so, with the Chembe Bridge being operational now. The Mansa/Luwingu/Kasama Road is undoubtedly the short-cut route for the people travelling from the Copperbelt and Luapula provinces to the Northern Province and vice-versa, hence the need to have the whole stretch tarred urgently.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to, once again, express our gratitude to all the Controlling Officers and their support staff who appeared before your Committee. It is through their invaluable input that your Committee managed to come up with this report.

Madam Speaker, your Committee wish to also take this opportunity to thank you for allowing them to serve on this important Committee. They also extend their gratitude to you, Madam, for giving them the opportunity to undertake both foreign and local tours to check on various projects for which assurance was given on the Floor of the House. In addition, Madam, your Committee wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and expert assistance rendered to your Committee during the course of the year.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Katuka: Now, Madam.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion to adopt the Second Report of your Committee, allow me to applaud the Chairman of the Committee, who left no stone unturned in his thought-provoking speech.  I hope and believe that the listening Government will give action-oriented responses to your Committee’s observations and recommendations. Madam, your Committee are more interested in implementation than in theoretical or academic responses which your Committee usually get.

Madam Speaker, the general observation of your Committee is that assurances are made on the Floor of the House by hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers without much thought of how the implementation will be. If not so, how else can one explain why assurances made as far back as 1986 are still not yet fully attended to?

Your Committee have been struggling to close all the assurances in an effort to concentrate on new assurances. However, to do so for the sake of it would be suicidal as the Government would sit back and relax that all is well when, in actual sense, there is enormous work they need to do in order to attend to all those undertakings and promises.

Madam Speaker, the Government made assurances on the construction of roads, renovations of stations and police camps countrywide, building of bridges where there are pontoons, rehabilitation of airports into modern ones, renovating of Missions Abroad, building of modern markets in all provincial centres and construction of modern stadiums in Ndola, Lusaka and Livingstone, in preparation for the 2010 World Cup to be hosted by South Africa and the formulation of the Comprehensive Pay Reform Strategy. Madam, all and such other assurances have been outstanding from 1986 to 2005. Once again, I wish to appeal to the Government to avoid paying lip service to what the hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers promise the people of Zambia on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: I wish to implore the Government to always give a time frame to the undertakings made on the Floor of the House so that it should be seen to be working within the given time frame. If that is followed to the letter, and adequate resources are released, as assured, then there will not be any serious draw backs to the implementation of the assurances. As you make assurances on the Floor of the House, hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers, please, ensure that capacity, in terms of staff and resources for the implementation, is there. Madam, your Committee have tried to deal with the same old assurances year in and year out.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to echo my Chairperson’s message of gratitude to you for allowing your Committee to tour various projects within and outside Zambia. Such tours should always be there for your Committee as they are eye openers on what witnesses orally submit to your Committee.

I only hope that next year, your Committee will also be given an opportunity to tour, not only projects within the region, but also projects in far-away places like Washington DC …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Katuka: … where your Committee heard that renovations …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: … of the Embassy have not been fully implemented because of logistical and administrative difficulties.

Madam Speaker, your Committee view the Washington DC Mission as one of the critical and strategic missions, which needs to be attended to. A tour to that mission will make your Committee appreciate the level of difficulties being experienced by the mission and possibly help to chat the way forward through their observations and recommendations.

Madam Speaker, with these few words of wisdom …

Hon. Member: Yes.

Mr Katuka: … I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, I want to thank your Committee’s report for bringing out issues that the Government has failed to honour when they actually promised the Zambian people through this House.

Madam Speaker, I am well pleased because your Committee have brought out issues that may have been nearly forgotten.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, this report has brought out issues where promises were made to tar Kasama/Luwingu/Mansa Road. Yet, down the line, they started talking about Kasama/Luwingu forgetting that they had actually promised to tar the road up to Mansa.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, last year, I was a member of your Committee and our colleagues from Kenya were very impressed that we had this particular committee in place. They, therefore, wanted to emulate what the Zambian Parliament had done

The Zambian Parliament that started this committee seems to be sleeping back. This Parliament started the CDF by giving out K30 million per each constituency. The Kenyan Parliament learnt from us, but they have now reached K1.4 billion per constituency. Yet, we are still stuck and crawling with K400 million. We do not seem to be serious with what we start. What makes this Parliament a watchdog of the Government is through these committees. Therefore, the Committee on Government Assurances is an important one.

Madam Speaker, we want to ensure that hon. Ministers honour their promises because if they fail to do that, it means that they are telling lies and deceiving Parliament, and that is punishable. I would like to state that it is high time a hon. Minister or his Deputy was censured and taken to prison so that they stop telling lies.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not use unparliamentary words. ‘Lies’ is unparliamentary. Could the hon. Member withdraw that?

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I would like to withdraw the word ‘lies’ and substitute it  with “failing to tell the truth” which is interpreted…

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, some of the replies given to Parliament are written by Permanent Secretaries. It is good that some Permanent Secretaries are now in this House as nominated hon. Members of Parliament because they will realise that they must be very sharp.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: When you come into this House, there will be no more Permanent Secretary behaviour. You must start knowing that there is serious business in this House.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, you could have been a professor or a doctor out there, but when you come here, we are at the same level.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, now, since you have become hon. Ministers, we do not want a continuation of this type of late replies - like a Permanent Secretary – of saying “when money will be available.” We want answers that are categorical and hon. Ministers that will not tell lies…

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Aah! I withdraw that word.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we want hon. Ministers that will tell the truth – not the opposite of the truth. When you are appointed as a hon. Minister, you should know that you are doing it for the Zambian people and it is an honour. That is why even my friend who was asking too many questions about the Karavinas, the hon. Member for Nalolo, has to answer questions now.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! There are no Karavinas in this House. Can the hon. Member withdraw that?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga:  I will withdraw the word Karavina and substitute it with ‘someone who kills people and is not known.’

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can you withdraw that?

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word Karavina.

Mr Muntanga: It is the Committee on Government Assurances that will ensure that the Government is kept on its toes. Therefore, I would like to urge hon. Members that in this House, we should not let go and we must understand that this is the time we can check the Government. It is not just good to belong to a committee and our own Parliament does not make sure that hon. Ministers take stock.

Madam Speaker, I was very grateful yesterday when the answer from one of the hon. Ministers was not good enough and you asked him to come back to this House, indicating that questions must be answered properly.

Madam Speaker, the promises over the Choma/Namwala Road started a long time ago.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we were told that the Kasama/Mansa Road would be tarred a long time ago. We were told that the Chipata/Lundazi Road would be done. We were also told that about US $90 million was given to do the Bottom Road. The promise was made at the Lwiindi Ceremony in Monze.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: You may not have been there because we know that some of you are too new.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: There was a promise that there was money for the Bottom Road. What we want is that when you make a promise and assure the Zambian people, it should be done and fulfilled.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: When you promise the Zambian people that they will have this and that, please, make sure that it must be given to them.

We are told that they are talking about the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway. That distance is longer than the Chipata/Mwami/Mchinji Rail Line which has taken ages to finish

Madam Speaker, when I heard about the promise of the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway, I thought the hon. Minister did not know what he was talking about. If we cannot finish Chipata/Mchinji Rail Line, we are not able to spare certain rails from the Ndola/Luanshya Railway Line and take them to Chipata/Mchinji Rail Line, how are you going to manage the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway Line? Why do you like making promises? Which other area are you going to deprive in favour of the other areas with the word similar to ‘taking without authority’?

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we would like these people to know that they should be very careful with the way they answer questions because some of them lack that. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply who has been recruited by the former hon. Minister who is now sitting behind should begin to be careful on how to answer questions.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Defence, who likes using words from the dictionary, should be seen to be doing his job…

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we want to see that what has been promised as a Government Assurance, like the beautiful structures which our First Republican President made in camps, is done. It is sad to see that nothing is being done. He is busy giving us nice words – looking swanky.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we were promised that a stadium would built in Livingstone. Now, since the Former Minister of Sport and Child Development has been elevated to State House as Presidential Affairs Minister, he will realise that he must honour what he had said when he was in that corner. We are going to follow you at State House. The stadium you promised in Livingstone must be built. Do not tell us that you are also going to behave like the people who destroyed the Dag Hammarskjoeld. There is only grass now. You had said that you were going to rehabilitate Independence Stadium. After destroying it, you are now watching it. Why are you interested in destruction?

Madam Speaker, this Government has a tendency of being destructive.

 Hon. Opposition Members Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we need to go to America and charge them for mass destruction, because they will be followed like the Americans did in Iraq. The mass destruction which is happening in Zambia may follow you in your houses.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Yes! Why are you doing things like this? You must be followed so that you are able to account for your actions.

Hon. Government Members: That is treason!

Mr Muntanga: Every time, you only think of one word - treason - even when it is not treason. You are so scared to be followed for what you fail to honour. Why do you like making promises? Why do you like making assurances to the Zambian people? Why do you like telling the Zambian people that you are going to do this? Now, you have changed and the promises are from outside.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, this report has brought out issues where promises were made to tar Kasama/Luwingu/Mansa Road. Yet, down the line, they started talking about Kasama/Luwingu forgetting that they had actually promised to tar the road up to Mansa.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, last year, I was a member of your Committee and our colleagues from Kenya were very impressed that we had this particular committee in place. They, therefore, wanted to emulate what the Zambian Parliament had done

The Zambian Parliament that started this committee seems to be sleeping back. This Parliament started the CDF by giving out K30 million per each constituency. The Kenyan Parliament learnt from us, but they have now reached K1.4 billion per constituency. Yet, we are still stuck and crawling with K400 million. We do not seem to be serious with what we start. What makes this Parliament a watchdog of the Government is through these committees. Therefore, the Committee on Government Assurances is an important one.

Madam Speaker, we want to ensure that hon. Ministers honour their promises because if they fail to do that, it means that they are telling lies and deceiving Parliament, and that is punishable. I would like to state that it is high time a hon. Minister or his Deputy was censured and taken to prison so that they stop telling lies.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not use unparliamentary words. ‘Lies’ is unparliamentary. Could the hon. Member withdraw that?

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I would like to withdraw the word ‘lies’ and substitute it  with “failing to tell the truth” which is interpreted…

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, some of the replies given to Parliament are written by Permanent Secretaries. It is good that some Permanent Secretaries are now in this House as nominated hon. Members of Parliament because they will realise that they must be very sharp.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: When you come into this House, there will be no more Permanent Secretary behaviour. You must start knowing that there is serious business in this House.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, you could have been a professor or a doctor out there, but when you come here, we are at the same level.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, now, since you have become hon. Ministers, we do not want a continuation of this type of late replies - like a Permanent Secretary – of saying “when money will be available.” We want answers that are categorical and hon. Ministers that will not tell lies…

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Aah! I withdraw that word.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we want hon. Ministers that will tell the truth – not the opposite of the truth. When you are appointed as a hon. Minister, you should know that you are doing it for the Zambian people and it is an honour. That is why even my friend who was asking too many questions about the Karavinas, the hon. Member for Nalolo, has to answer questions now.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! There are no Karavinas in this House. Can the hon. Member withdraw that?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga:  I will withdraw the word Karavina and substitute it with ‘someone who kills people and is not known.’

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can you withdraw that?

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word Karavina.

Mr Muntanga: It is the Committee on Government Assurances that will ensure that the Government is kept on its toes. Therefore, I would like to urge hon. Members that in this House, we should not let go and we must understand that this is the time we can check the Government. It is not just good to belong to a committee and our own Parliament does not make sure that hon. Ministers take stock.

Madam Speaker, I was very grateful yesterday when the answer from one of the hon. Ministers was not good enough and you asked him to come back to this House, indicating that questions must be answered properly.

Madam Speaker, the promises over the Choma/Namwala Road started a long time ago.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we were told that the Kasama/Mansa Road would be tarred a long time ago. We were told that the Chipata/Lundazi Road would be done. We were also told that about US $90 million was given to do the Bottom Road. The promise was made at the Lwiindi Ceremony in Monze.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: You may not have been there because we know that some of you are too new.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: There was a promise that there was money for the Bottom Road. What we want is that when you make a promise and assure the Zambian people, it should be done and fulfilled.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: When you promise the Zambian people that they will have this and that, please, make sure that it must be given to them.

We are told that they are talking about the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway. That distance is longer than the Chipata/Mwami/Mchinji Rail Line which has taken ages to finish

Madam Speaker, when I heard about the promise of the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway, I thought the hon. Minister did not know what he was talking about. If we cannot finish Chipata/Mchinji Rail Line, we are not able to spare certain rails from the Ndola/Luanshya Railway Line and take them to Chipata/Mchinji Rail Line, how are you going to manage the Nseluka/Mpulungu Railway Line? Why do you like making promises? Which other area are you going to deprive in favour of the other areas with the word similar to ‘taking without authority’?

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we would like these people to know that they should be very careful with the way they answer questions because some of them lack that. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply who has been recruited by the former hon. Minister who is now sitting behind should begin to be careful on how to answer questions.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Defence, who likes using words from the dictionary, should be seen to be doing his job…

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we want to see that what has been promised as a Government Assurance, like the beautiful structures which our First Republican President made in camps, is done. It is sad to see that nothing is being done. He is busy giving us nice words – looking swanky.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we were promised that a stadium would built in Livingstone. Now, since the Former Minister of Sport and Child Development has been elevated to State House as Presidential Affairs Minister, he will realise that he must honour what he had said when he was in that corner. We are going to follow you at State House. The stadium you promised in Livingstone must be built. Do not tell us that you are also going to behave like the people who destroyed the Dag Hammarskjoeld. There is only grass now. You had said that you were going to rehabilitate Independence Stadium. After destroying it, you are now watching it. Why are you interested in destruction?

Madam Speaker, this Government has a tendency of being destructive.

 Hon. Opposition Members Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we need to go to America and charge them for mass destruction, because they will be followed like the Americans did in Iraq. The mass destruction which is happening in Zambia may follow you in your houses.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Yes! Why are you doing things like this? You must be followed so that you are able to account for your actions.

Hon. Government Members: That is treason!

Mr Muntanga: Every time, you only think of one word - treason - even when it is not treason. You are so scared to be followed for what you fail to honour. Why do you like making promises? Why do you like making assurances to the Zambian people? Why do you like telling the Zambian people that you are going to do this? Now, you have changed and the promises are from outside.

 

 

I went round all the shops to look for a bag of fertiliser worth K50,000 but I could not find it.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Now, it has been changed to Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … to suit the situation. Even if there is FSP is in place, there are other issues being raised.

Mr Kakoma: They even promised cheap mealie meal!

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Muntanga: There have been promises and promises.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, I feel bad to rise on a very serious point of order on my brother who is debating very effectively. However, is he in order not to qualify that this Government of the Movement for Mass Destruction …

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: … is actually on rampage, destroying public institutions? Is he in order not to mention that and cite them effectively that this is a Government of Movement for Mass Destruction?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Since the Chair is ignorant about that movement, the hon. Member debating may continue.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, definitely, there is mass destruction going on by the ‘Movement’.

Major Chizhyuka: There is Sichifulo!

Talking about Sichifulo, I am told that Government is attending to it effectively. I hope so, though I hear, in certain Government circles, people are trying hard to leave the people to continue suffering …

Mr Syakalima: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: … and hide under such lies that there are no people there.

Major Chizhyuka: Regionalism!

Mr Muntanga: They are saying that there are only three people there. However, when we went there, we found hundreds of people.

Major Chizhyuka: 800!

Mr Muntanga: This is an issue the Government must address.

Madam Speaker, assurances must be fulfilled. If one is living in the old times of regionalism, nepotism …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Muntanga, do not create new assurances.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Do not give, as a statement of fact, assurances that may not have been made by the hon. Ministers.

You may continue.

Mr Syakalima: Hammer!

Mr Muntanga: I do not make promises that I cannot fulfil. However, I am reminding people who make promises that the promises must be honoured. If there is an issue that we are following and any one of you decide to divert, they will be visited. We will follow them.

Mr Mbulakulima: By whom?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We will smoke you out of there!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! This House debates issues very rationally and threats in this House are not allowed. Nobody must feel threatened in or outside this House. This House must talk peace and development.

The hon. Member may consider that as he continues.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is peace that we are talking about before pieces are there.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Debate straight and give your issues.

Mr Muntanga: The issue is about those Ministers and Deputy Ministers’ assurances that are not honoured. If these assurances that are given to the people of Zambia are not honoured, they would be regarded as a threat to peace.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: When you assure people that they will not go hungry, and they go hungry because there is no food. Oh! A hungry person is an angry one, and can be a definite threat to peace …

Mr Beene: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … and stability.

Madam Speaker, we have promises and assurances dating back to 1985/86. Some of the people in Government today were there when these assurances were made. However, when they came into power in the MMD Government, they found them but have not bothered to act on them.

Major Chizhyuka: Bamozi na bamozi!

Mr Muntanga: Although some of you are being blamed, you are really new to these issues.

Mr Mulyata: Aah! It does not matter. What is your problem? Even you, at one time, were new!

Major Chizhyuka: Like you!

Mr Muntanga: The hon. Minister is answering. We will answer you with your promises.

Major Chizhyuka: Has he forgotten?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: The people of Kalomo were promised that a new market would be built for them by the former Minister for Southern Province who has been moved to another province.

Major Chizhyuka: He has forgotten already!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: He is not there anymore. Now he is talking from North-Western Province where he is not telling the truth ...

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … after failing to tell the truth about constructing a new market for people in Kalomo. We will hold you responsible.

Interruptions

Mr Mulyata: Aah! You have no proof!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, it is the assurances that we are concerned about. Those promises made in the House must be honoured. The trend in Zambia, now, is not to tell the truth. When you are out there, you promise people that you shall sell fertiliser or do this and that during campaigns. All hon. Members shall demand for answers in this House.

Now, we have been assured that there is a new Minister of Livestock and Fisheries.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: We are not sure whether it is a new ministry because as far as the House is concerned, there is only one ministry.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You know that and you cannot debate that. You know that it is one ministry with two hon. Ministers. Can you just debate, please? If your points are over …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! If your points are no longer there, we do not want to listen to tedious repetitions. Make new points and move on.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: There was a promise to tar the Mutanda/Chavuma Road.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: This promise has not been honoured. There was also a promise to do the Bottom Road, but it has not been done.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: The promise about the Mchinji/Chipata Railway Line has not been fulfilled. There were promises that the Chadiza/Chipata Road …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … and the Kawambwa/Mansa Road would be done …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … but they have not been done. We want these projects to be done.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: All these promises need to be fulfilled. The promise that the Monze/Nico Road would be tarred should be worked on.

Mr Sejani: The Kalomo/Mapatizya Road!

Mr Muntanga: We had been promised that the Kalomo/Mapatizya Road would be worked on and it was even included in the Budget that from Itezhi-Itezhi through Kalomo into the game park, the road would be tarred.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: There are a lot of things that have been promised by this Government.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Do you want to cry?

Mr Muntanga: I do not cry, I am a very strong man. You risk crying yourself!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, the promises are too many. What else can we tell the people because wherever we go they say, “We shall do it”?

Now, we are being told that there are new graders. However, these graders are hidden somewhere.

Hon. Government Members: No! No!

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: It is a hide and seek arrangement.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: We want you to work on the Kalomo/Chikanta Road. We want you to grade these roads.

The yellow light came on.

Major Chizhyuka: You have the Floor and plenty of time!

Mr Muntanga: We want these promises to be honoured.

The hon. Minister for the province would do nothing if money is not released.

Mr Mulyata: The graders are there!

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: The best way to do is this is to honour …

Mr Mbulakulima: Fyafula!

Mr Muntanga: … the promises made to the Zambian people.

We were promised that there would be continuous registration of voters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: A law was passed in this House about …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … continuous registration of voters …

Mr Beene: Zero!

Mr Muntanga: …but  nothing has been done.

The budget for the Electoral Commission of Zambia is high. It is equivalent to $7 per person who votes. You wonder what that money is used for. Promises being given here …

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: And rigging!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, we would like to see the promises made in this House, to the Zambians, honoured.

Mr Mubika interjected.

Mr Muntanga: There is no need to argue when you know very well that Sinjembela has no proper roads. In fact, you go to Shang’ombo using a bad road and you are talking whilst seated.

Mr Mubika interjected.

Mr Kambwili: Hammer! Hammer, mudala!

Mr Muntanga: You are talking about these roads and yet there is no proper road from Petauke to your own village, Mwanjabantu.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Then you want to say, “We are pushing these things.”

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Muntanga: When business was suspended, I was saying that promises made in this House must be honoured. There was a promise to do the Mbesuma Bridge and K4 billion was allocated but when we went to inspect, nothing had been done. There is a hospital in Isoka which has been under construction for seven years. Shang’ombo Hospital has been promised. The only project that was done in time was the Chembe Bridge and the reason was that the President wanted it completed. Do you want the President to always assure the people? What of you, hon. Ministers? Ministers should honour their promises.

Madam Speaker, I support the Motion and thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I stand to support the Motion and to commend the mover and the seconder.

Madam Speaker, after having listened to the mover, seconder and Hon. Muntanga, I conclude that we are at crossroads. Now, where do we go from here?

Hon. Members: Moomba!

Laughter

Mr Mooya: You are welcome to Moomba. Some of these projects have been outstanding for 22 years because there has been no time frame or commitment.

Now, I want to debate one issue which is very close to my heart and this is empowering upcoming small contractors. It is there in the second report. I note, on this issue, that, again, there is no seriousness on the part of the Government. Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister made a statement in 2002, which is about six years ago, and I note that before that, there have been other studies to that effect, studies like labour-based contracting in Zambia by NORAD in 1996; the study of civil buildings and consulting services by CAMSI International around 1996 and the road sector reforms of 1996, but to date nothing has materialised.

We know the importance of empowering our own contractors. Now, if I may ask, who are the upcoming small contractors? Who are they? Now, according to the statistics from the National Council for Construction, last year, we had about 1,700 registered contractors. Out of these, 1,648 are indigenous contractors.

Madam Speaker, these contractors are in categories of five: B – buildings; C – Civil; M – Mining; E – Electrical; and R – Roads. Each category has six grades: One is unlimited – it is the highest and it can bid any amount and six is the lowest and I note a limitation of contract value to be tendered for grade six which is the lowest at only K1/2 billion and grade five has a limit of K1.5 billion to K2.5 billion.

Now when you look at these grades, and you add grades five and six, you will find that there is a total number of 1,604 indigenous contractors. The remainder which are grades one to four - I am talking about Zambian contractors who are only forty-four and to me, I can conclude that these upcoming small contractors are in grades five and six and they need urgent help.

Madam Speaker, there is a study, we are told in the report, and I have pointed out that we had studies before, but we have not utilised these studies although currently the consultant has finished looking into studying this with a view to empowering small contractors.

Madam Speaker, before this report is given, and I am asking the hon. Minister responsible for Works and Supply to speed up so that we implement it, but while waiting for the report from the consultant, let us reflect on the following policy issues which are very important and more important than what is contained in the report. The first is the high local debt to consultants and contractors, whom we owe about K380 billion. How do we empower them if we owe them this much? There is o confidence in local construction companies resulting in high utilisation of foreign construction companies. In the past one or two years, I have noticed that we have condemned our own contractors and we would rather have foreign contractors to be engaged in the construction of roads, bridges, etc, but, Mr Speaker, if we have to empower them, we have to get rid of this low confidence.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is that of late payments and we know that we cannot empower our contractors if we pay them late.

Madam Speaker, as politicians we should let them operate freely. Let them carry out the regulations without any interference. I am speaking from experience. I think here we are going to have a problem. Policy makers are fond of interfering, that is why we have shoddy work and confusion in the construction sector.

Madam Speaker, I think we all know the beauty of empowering small indigenous contractors. The money is not externalised, it just circulates within the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, this is because when local contractors are given work, they are dedicated as they are here to stay, unlike the foreign contractors who, after the work, go back to their countries.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear! Wisdom.

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, we are talking about poverty reduction. The only way we can reduce poverty is by empowering these local contractors. Like I have pointed out earlier on, we have 1,600 indigenous contractors. In the report, I have noted that by 2013 these contractors are supposed to employ 30,000 people. I also noted that in 1986, according to the statistics that I have here, when the economy was still doing well, we had about 40,000 people employed in the construction sector, and yet, at that time, the population was less compared to the current one. So, what I am saying is that we can reduce the poverty levels if we empower our own contractors.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, let me come to one more issue. This is the Kazungula Bridge. This has been on the drawing board for a long time, I think since, like I said yesterday, …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Mooya: … before the Chembe Bridge now called the Levy Mwanawasa Bridge. It was supposed to be built in the federal days before independence, but up to now it has not been built. We had hoped it would be built last year, when the three countries agreed to build it, but at the last minute a problem cropped up. Zimbabwe was not allowed to get a loan from the African Development Bank. So, that best option to put up a bridge was not implemented and that was the cheapest site actually because the bridge was going to be 600 metres long. Now, that has been changed because of Zimbabwe not co-operating or, rather, failing to get that loan. Therefore, we have moved to another site which is longer than the first one. It is about 900 metre long.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Mooya: At a cost, of course. What I am trying to say is my experience when I was still working with the Government. I would like to thank the Namibian Government because this is not their project, but they have allowed us to use their waters. I must thank them. Similarly, I remember when we were putting up the Katima Mulilo Bridge, we had that problem. There were six options and one option was the cheapest. That option involved putting up that bridge within Zambia. The other options were to put part of the bridge in Zambia and part of it in Namibia, but the Namibian Government went for the cheapest option to put up the bridge wholly in Zambia.

I remember that at the time when we were negotiating, the Namibian Government said that Zambia and Namibia are one. All that was needed was a bridge for our people. Therefore, it did not matter if the entire bridge was laid in Zambia. As a result, we have it on our side of the border. So, I am thanking them for that and they have also given us a go-ahead to construct the Kazungula Bridge on the Zambian side of the border.

Finally, I think let me also thank the African Development Bank for not despairing, after Zimbabwe failed to get a loan, to co-finance this project. I am sure that other financiers would have given up but since the African Development Bank is our bank, I think they are willing to finance this route which is more expensive.

With these few words, I would like to thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to participate in this important debate. I would like to congratulate the mover and seconder for the way they have delivered their message to us.

Madam Speaker, let me say that the reason some of our colleagues sit there everyday, smiling and pointing fingers at us, is because they know that development is a process. It is not a one-day affair and they know that one day we will not be sitting on your right and they will be the ones sitting here, hopefully.

Hon. PF Members: Wayamba.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: So, when we speak as a Government, we have their interests at heart. The roads that they have been talking about are of concern to all of us as well. The people who were here before us made commitments on those roads. They were not able to rehabilitate them not because they did want to get those roads done, but the resource envelopes could not allow them to achieve this in their time. We have taken over and, knowing that we will go beyond 2011, we will continue …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … to work on these projects. We are also mindful of the fact that priorities do change as we go along because when new hon. Members of Parliament come, they bring in their own new demands. The Mansa-Luwingu-Kasama Road has been on the drawing board and, as a Government, we have allocated resources to that project. Sometimes, the difficulties we encounter are not because the Government has not put in money but, maybe, the contractor encounters difficulties with the machinery, employment and so forth. So, as far as we are concerned, we will deliver on all those projects that we have made commitments on.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: However, what we cannot do is to make the 90-day promises like others did during elections …

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: … because we know that in so doing, we will be economising on the truth. I want to assure Hon. Muntanga from Kalomo Central that the issue of the market he talked about is just one of many issues that we intend to address. However, the lack of a market in his area is as a result of his continuous requests for road maintenance, …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: …fertiliser and, sometimes, he even confuses us.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: At the end of the day, we do not even know what he is looking for.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Mulongoti: There is no hon. Minister this side or that side who would want to say what is not true on behalf of the Government. As far as we are concerned, we come to this House with good intentions to ask hon. Members to give us resources. Sometimes, the Opposition argues so passionately about removing money from one road and allocate it to another road. An example is that of relocating money meant for the Mutanda-Chavuma Road to the Niko-Monze Road. Hon. Members have argued here for us to do this.

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes!

Major Chizhyuka: Aah!

Mr Mulongoti: However, when we make a variation, they turn around and say they, instead, want the Bottom Road to be rehabilitated.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Please, understand that governing is about marketing hope and promises. If you have seen the President-elect of America, Barack Obama, he is promising 2.5 million jobs, but that does not imply that he has done it. He is merely giving them hope and that is exactly what we did when we campaigned against you. We told the people of Zambia that our plans are better than others’ plans. Then, the people of Zambia checked your programmes and saw that they are not like ours. They also saw that there was more credibility in our programmes. Therefore, I would like to tell the Chairman of your Committee that there is no rhetoric on our part. We are serious minded and will attend to those bridges.

As we adjourn sine die and with the commitment that I have seen from some of the hon. Members of Parliament, I am pretty sure that they will go and inspect their bridges and then come back to us with reports. Those that we can attend to, we will attend to. For those of you who think that being on this side (Government side) is the easiest, I want to warn you that it is much easier to be there (Opposition side) and say everything every time. Here, the difference is that we have to work the talk. And having new additions to our team, for us, is a sense of pride. Being a Member of Parliament is a phase and when you are in this House, you can sit anywhere in this House, for instance, the Front, Back Benches or Opposition side, and because that is the nature of this House, I know there are others who could have left the Front Bench. I have sat almost everywhere in this House. I sat at the back and I am now in Front - happily so.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Therefore, if for some reason, there is a change in the fortunes, please, help us.

Mr Magande stood up to raise a point of order.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, it will not be right to behave like Hon. Lubinda who, when they were counting the results, when the fortunes turned against him, he wanted the Electoral Commission of Zambia to stop announcing the results.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: For us this side, when we say ‘Yes’ we mean it and when we say ‘No’ we mean it.

Mr Munaile: Is that your assurance?

Mr Mulongoti: The assurance that I can give you is that you have got a very responsible Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: It is a leadership that is committed to the development of Zambia. Our social contract, I can tell you, was so fair …

Hon. Government Member: And unbreakable!

Mr Mulongoti: … and unbreakable.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I know that there are some of you who are getting frustrated that it is taking too long, but it is a constitutional matter. Just plead with the National Constitutional Conference to, maybe, shorten the period from five years to three so that you can have hope, but the longer it takes, the stronger we are becoming.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: When we competed during the campaigns, you told us all the problems the people of Zambia are facing. So, we have taken note of all those problems. I can assure you that we will deliver. For some of you, we, as a Government, have worked on the roads in your constituencies, but you turned round and started boasting that it is you who did the roads. We are coming with the caterpillars and tell the people that this is Government and we will not invite you to that ceremony.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: We will ensure that if we are doing a bridge, we do it in your absence.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

I know there are calls for points of order, but generally, we do not give a point of order on a hon. Minister. However, the Chair asks the hon. Minister to align properly with the Motion.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I have got very close friends in that area. The mere fact that they are there means there is a vision from now. All I was saying is that we are committed to our national development programme and we will develop together, but it does not mean you must take credit from us. It is developing together with you following behind us, the performers.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: My ministry, Madam Speaker, looks like it is a whipping boy. Anybody who stands up has got something against my ministry.

We have been told we do not pay contractors. I have taken time, Madam Speaker, to look at the Auditor-General’s Report. Find time to read through this. Sometimes, you set yourself talking about empowering local contractors. You cry how many projects have been abandoned by local contractors - paid for but abandoned and so it is not that we have anything against them. We want them to grow to become big scale, but we want commitment on their part. We want integrity in their performance. We want them to know that the money that they are taking and running away with is public money for the same people of Zambia who want their bridges and whatever.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: I am a great believer that this country cannot be developed by other people but by ourselves and, of course, with us in front leading the way to development.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, we will come into this House not long from now to ask for more funding for the coming year so that the projects that were not completed in this year, the projects that have been outstanding for sometime, can have a shot in the arm so that we can progress on them. We need to tell you the truth. We need to carry you along like I have said, not side by side, but behind. We will carry you along so that we can develop this country together, knowing that we owe it to ourselves and that if there is anything that we can do together, do not hesitate to come along. We are looking forward to those good ideas continuing to come to us so that we can work on them and the people of Zambia will also respect you because they know you will be the ones who will have told the Government what must be done. We are happy to work with you.

Mr Chairman of the Committee, we have heard all you said. I can assure you, as a member of this Government, that we are committed to developing this country together. Even those of you whose participation is just your presence here, are welcome here.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: We would like you to be here with us and just by looking at us, we know you are talking.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Even those of you who point fingers at us angrily, we know that is the way you express yourself. Tell us, we will listen to you.

With these few remarks, Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Communication and Transport (Ms Siliya): I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I do not intend to take a lot of time on the Floor, but I just wish to begin by thanking the mover of this Motion as well as the seconder and, also, the whole Committee for having taken time to look at a very important issue, and that is Government Assurances.

Madam Speaker, from the start, I want to put things a little bit into context, that in today’s global economy, winning is not everything. It is not the only thing. If we are going to win at fighting poverty, we should not just intervene using social methods. We also have to use economic interventions so that we can fight poverty sustainably.

This economic intervention - infrastructure, trade, economic infrastructure - is at the heart of the fight against poverty. This is why my ministry is concerned about the issue raised by the Chairman in his report on Government Assurances.

Madam Speaker, Benjamin Franklin, a former President of the United States once said that trade never left any country worse off. I think we should also be in that frame of mind, that for us to fight poverty, it has to be more than social interventions that I keep hearing people calling for.

This Government has been the architect of that mental transformation that has created the policy to deal with capital projects. This is the Private-Public-Partnership (PPP) Framework.

Madam Speaker, with my hon. Colleagues, the hon. Ministers of Works and Supply, Finance and National Planning and Commerce, Trade and Industry, we have intensified our efforts to make sure that we do realise this PPP so that it is approved by Cabinet and is brought to Parliament so that it becomes legislation and can provide clarity and further direction in terms of capital projects.

Yes, we are in a hurry to provide infrastructure projects although some projects have been pending for quite a while as you rightly pointed out in your report.

Madam Speaker, this Government will never ever have enough money to complete these projects and this is why I will ask for the help of the Members on the left side of you, Madam Speaker. When we are talking about inviting foreign investors, it is because we have at heart the interest of the people of Zambia. 
However, sometimes, the comments that we get from them as Members of Parliament are very unwelcoming to foreign investment. We will not be able to turn around the economic infrastructure of this country if we do not continue to invite this extra capital from outside so that we can position ourselves as a hub in terms of infrastructure.  Without this infrastructure, as we are not an island, but geographically positioned as a landlocked country, it means we are in competition and winning is everything.

Madam, we have to compete against other landlocked countries like Botswana for the same international financing. With the way the capital markets are going, the competition will get even stiffer. When we are talking about attracting foreign investment so that we can utilise this extra capital within the PPP framework and put up massive infrastructure projects, I think it is the responsibility of everyone in this House to support the Government.

We must make that step, cross the bridge and have that mental transformation. What we should not accept is that it is not possible, as the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo was saying, to actually construct 200 kilometres of the Nseluka/Mpulungu Rail Line. If you have that mental block, that it is not possible and will not happen, we on this side of the House are the architects of mental transformation. We believe it can be done.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: We totally believe it can be done and, this year, we put up an international tender advertising for the construction of various rail lines in this country, including the Nseluka/Mpulungu Line because we do appreciate that until we have integrated transport systems - the road, rail, water and airline transport – we will not be able to expand our economy or create the needed jobs and wealth in this country.

I think it is time that we all spent a lot more time talking about job and wealth creation activities instead of cheap politicking.

Madam speaker, the Chairman also made a statement that we should not involve ourselves in building the Nseluka/Mpulungu Road because it requires a lot of money and, therefore, we should just concentrate on the road. No. Our approach as well articulated in the Fifth National Development Plan and the Vision 2030 is that to be able to create a hub, we cannot just be having a linear approach. We have to do all these things simultaneously so that we are able to position ourselves in a competitive situation where other countries will use us as a transport hub.

Madam Speaker, I believe as long as you mentally accept it can be done, these things can be done. Within the PPP Policy that we will be introducing, hon. Member for Kalomo, I am sure we will be able to do capital projects much faster because, then, the Government will be partnering with the private sector and not just the local private sector but also the international private sector.

In that regard, I would like to add on that the promises that Hon. Mulongoti was talking about are about marketing hope for the people of Zambia and promises. This is well articulated in the Fifth National Development Plan and we are on track in the Ministry of Communications and Transport where we are feeling totally energised to actually implement this projects.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister in the Office of the President (Mr Namulambe): Madam Speaker, in the first place, I would like to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion although I would like to disagree with them on the policy issues.

For instance, in 1986, the United National Independence Party (UNIP) was in power and had its own policies which were different from the MMD policies. In 1991, the MMD Government came into power. As a result, you are able to see the progress in this country.

Madam Speaker, development is a process based on resources. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo said I have moved from the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Develop to State House, but I would like to state that the Government has fulfilled most of the assurances that it made regarding sport. For example, the Sports Policy has been revised and my successor will soon launch this policy because it has already been approved by Cabinet.

With regard to the National Sports Council Act, I would like to say that consultations have been concluded and the Act is being drafted by the Ministry of Justice and it will soon be brought before this House for enactment.

Madam Speaker, in the case regarding the issue of the Independence Stadium, I wish to inform this House that the Government has committed funds, but the drawback has been the local contractors. This Government is there to empower the local contractors, but most of them are a disappointment. You will notice that when we razed the Grand Stand, our engineers had to put up estimates. However, when these local contractors heard that the Government had provided K446 billion towards the hosting of the 2010 Games, they thought that all the funds were meant for the rehabilitation of the Independence Stadium.

Madam, when the advertisements were placed in the newspapers, the bidders bid for close to K400 billion for just constructing the Grand Stand. Those bids were not responsive and we had to re-advertise. Again, the bids were too high. The contractors were demanding for very huge sums of money like K260 billion just to do the Grand Stand and yet the cost of the new Stadium in Ndola, with all its facilities, is just about K210 billion. Therefore, it is not the Government’s intension to delay the projects, but our local contractors. It is not a matter of the Government alone to persuade these contractors to be reasonable, but all of us, as Zambians. This is because the infrastructure to be put in places are not for the people in Government alone, but all the Zambians. When you consider the works that we did at Konkola Stadium, you will notice that the Government spent close to K2 billion. The stadium was not for the Government officials or the hon. Ministers, but every Zambian. In fact, we saw one president of a political party sit in one of the terraces in the crowds.

Hon. UPND Members: What is wrong with that?

Mr Namulambe: He was there enjoying the fruits of the Government.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Madam Speaker, therefore, when people are bidding, we should all think like Zambians because this infrastructure is for us all.  This Government is committed to ensuring that we move as fast as possible. All we are saying is that the local contractors should be reasonable in the manner in which they make these bids.

Madam Speaker, I agree, we have had the assurances on the construction of the stadia in Ndola, Lusaka and Livingstone. The plans have not died. We are going to complete them since we shall continue being in Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Madam, for the Ndola Stadium, I am sure by now, the Chinese Government should be concluding with their tenders for the contractor to come and start works there. For Lusaka, we have the International Olympic Committee which is also helping with the modern sports infrastructure and we are certain that with the hosting of the 2001 All Africa Games, most of this infrastructures is going to be put in place.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Madam, it is a fact because we are going to do it. We are a Government which is based on making things happen. For instance, there was an assurance on the fertiliser and the fertiliser is there at the price that was announced.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Madam Speaker, there are some people in this House who do not even honour their own personal assurances. They go to get loans from their banks and fail to honour their assurances. At the end of the day, they end up having their farms repossessed by the banks.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Therefore, when they are talking about assurances, they must also go and check what log is in their own eyes. We, as a Government, are there to ensure that we do what the people want. Hence, we shall continue with the mandate to lead this country because we are sure that with our prudent management and the able leadership of President Banda and the men and women you see in front here, we are going to fulfill all that we have promised the people of Zambia. Others have been assuring people and they will continue dreaming to be in Government. They will never rule this country.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Madam, they are still suffering from the election shock and they will die with it.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Madam Speaker, we are going to ensure that all these things that we have talked about are done. When things are brought in this House, all we want is support for approval. We are in Government and we shall continue in Government and the people of Zambia must be assured that we are very positive and we mean well with what we want to do for them. There are some people who are day in day out trying to criticise the Government for the sake of criticism and they have got nothing to offer. There are some people that do not read these reports in detail.

Madam Speaker, your report is very much in line with our policies and since we are in Government, we shall ensure that we fulfill everything for continuity.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Madam Speaker, may I thank you most heartily for allowing me this opportunity to add a few comments on the report which has been beautifully presented to this honourable House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Speaker, I want to say that leadership demands that it should be provided at the right time. Those of us who are members of this honourable House have a full responsibility, when we adjourn, to superintend those projects that are within our constituencies. When a road is passing through Bweengwa up to Namwala, we will expect that the hon. Member for Bweengwa and the hon. Member for Namwala, without necessarily interfering, must see that the job is being done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_________

The House adjourned at 1916 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 27th November, 2008.