Debates- Thursday, 27th November, 2008

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 27th November, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

ELECTION OF MAYORS AND COUNCIL CHAIRPERSONS

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to give a ministerial statement to inform the nation on the election of mayors and council chairpersons throughout the country.

Madam Speaker, it is a known fact that elections of mayors, deputy mayors, council secretaries and deputy council secretaries should have taken place sometime in September this year. The elections were to be in line with the Law at Section 16 (2) of the Local Government Act Cap. 281 of the Laws of Zambia which states:

“The Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Chairman or Vice-Chairman of a council shall be elected annually at the first ordinary meeting of the council after the 1st September in that year.”

Madam Speaker, however, the elections could not take place because of the unforeseeable passing on of the third Republican President on 19th August, 2008 and burial on 3rd September, 2008, leading to the Presidential elections which were held on 30th October, 2008, won by His Excellency President Rupiah Banda.

Madam Speaker, this is a crucial period in councils as all councils are now involved in the budget preparations and that the budgets cannot be approved by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing until they are approved by full councils.

Madam Speaker, it is for this reason that the ministry is directing all councils to hold special council meetings for the sole purpose of electing mayors and council chairpersons by Friday, 5th December, 2008.

The ministry is proposing that the committees of the councils should be elected on the same day of 5th December, 2008.

Madam Speaker, because of the Presidential elections and the fact that the councils could not have met after September, 2008, without having elections for mayors and chairpersons, the councils did not sit to approve their 2009 budgets which should be sent to our ministry by mid-December, 2008.

Madam Speaker, it is expected that the installations of mayors, deputy mayors, council chairpersons and their deputies will be held before or on 12th December, 2008 and on 14th December, 2008, the full councils will meet to consider and approve their budgets.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement made by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I seek clarification from the hon. Minister on his statement that councils should submit their budgets to his ministry by mid-December, by which time his ministry would have already concluded its budget submission to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. I would like the hon. Minister to indicate to me the connection between the budgets that his ministry receives from councils and the budget that his ministry will  finally present to this House for approval so that we can give him money which he can give as grants to the councils to finance their budgets.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I am thankful for that question from my colleague, Hon. Lubinda, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, who holds a similar position to mine in his party.

Mr Lubinda: Answer the question, mwana.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House, and specifically the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is the only person allowed to approve all council budgets. No other person does that. In terms of grants, my ministry obviously knows and has anticipated that. For example, Lusaka City Council, in which the hon. Member is a councillor, has problems of water every year. Therefore, grants to councils are determined after we get the bigger grant from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. However, I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that there is no connection between the councils’ budgets and the  budget presented by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Good.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the essence of local governments making budgets if there is no correlation between their budgets and the National Budget.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for that question. I know that many of us in the House may not have been interested in following the political situation in the country from 1991. If the hon. Member of Parliament had been following the political activities from 1991, he would have discovered that, along the way, a leader that he knows very well made changes to things like the relation between budgets for councils and that of the State. During that time, one of the decisions that was made, which has made the councils be on their knees, …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: … by an hon. Minister in the Government then, who is not in the House but is a leader of a political party, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … was that anybody who had served for twenty-two years had  to be retired.

Mr Kambwili: You should stop being a cadre. You are now a hon. Cabinet Minister.

Mr Tetamashimba: As a result of that decision, the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) and councils ended up paying out a lot of money.

Mr Kambwili: What is the relationship between that and the question?

Mr Tetamashimba: Coming to the question that has been …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can we have order.

Hon. Members, you are not allowed to debate from your chair. This House will not continue reminding you about this. It is important that hon. Members observe the rules of the House and hon. Members, dignified as you are, ought to know when to talk and when to listen. This is time for the hon. Minister to speak. If you have a point, you must raise it at the right time.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, since we are talking about budgets that are not connected, can I also ask where the K16 billion allocated to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) for anti-flood works in Lusaka this year is, especially since the rains are upon us.

The Deputy Speaker: That, unfortunately, hon. Member, does not relate to the ministerial statement. The Chair said you should ask points of clarification on the ministerial statement.

I have also permitted the hon. Minister of Health to make a Ministerial Statement.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PRESENT CHOLERA OUTBREAK IN ZAMBIA

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): I thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to make a statement on the present cholera outbreak in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, allow me to remind this august House that for the health of our people to be adequately safeguarded, all players for such desired health security must deliver on what is expected of them. Our approach to meeting the health needs of our nation is, indeed, multi-sectoral.

Madam Speaker, cholera kills, and yet it is a disease that is avoidable if only people valued and cherished cleanliness.

Cholera is a disease characterised by diarrhoea and vomiting. It is worth noting that cholera is common in areas with poor water supply and sanitary facilities. Nonetheless, as this may be the case, wherever it occurs, this reflects poor hygiene at an individual’s levels.

In Zambia, cholera commonly occurs around the rainy season. One can catch cholera by drinking contaminated water, eating contaminated food or using hands that are contaminated with germs that cause cholera, that is, hands that have not been washed properly after handling human waste. Cholera affects both adults and children.

Madam Speaker, cholera is curable. It can be cured simply by administering plenty of oral fluids known as Oral Rehydration Salts (ORS) or fluids given directly into the blood by trained medical personnel. It is important to note that it can cause death within a very short period of time if treatment is not received in good time.

Madam Speaker, over the last seven years, Zambia has recorded two major outbreaks of cholera. In 1999 when we had 11,615 cases and in 2004 when we saw 7,349 cases countrywide. At both times, Lusaka District was the worst affected with more than 80 per cent of the cases coming from this district.

Madam Speaker, currently, we have recorded outbreaks in Northern, Luapula and Lusaka provinces. As at 23rd November, 2008, Northern Province was the worst affected with 517 patients having been treated for cholera. At the beginning of the epidemic in Northern Province in September of this year, we were seeing about five cases per day. This number quickly rose and at the peak of the outbreak about 45 cases were seen per day. The number of cases has significantly reduced to less than five per day.

 It is worth noting that out of the 517 case, no-one died. However, five people were brought in dead to the health centres in Northern Province. This development highlights poor health seeking behaviour in some of our people which is regrettable.

Madam Speaker, I must emphasise that if hygiene fails and one catches cholera and they are urgently brought to the health facility, it is unlikely that they will die. Please note that the symptoms of cholera are vomiting, blood in diarrhoea, quick dehydration, loss of strength and cramping of muscles. All the above will happen without fever.

In Luapula Province, as at 19th November, 2008, out of a total of 434 cases, with the majority occurring in Nchelenge District, 284 had been seen. The other district that was affected in Luapula Province is Chienge with 150 cases. A total of seven deaths were recorded in Luapula Province.

In Lusaka Province, as of 26th November, 2008, over a period of about one month, Lusaka District has attended to seventy-nine patients with seventy-four of these successfully being treated. Two people died and among these there was one brought-in-dead and one abscondee. In Lusaka Province, Lusaka is the only district where we have seen cases of cholera so far. The residential areas where these patients are coming from include Kanyama, Chawama, George, Kalingalinga and Chipata compounds.

Madam Speaker, you will note that all these areas have one thing in common; poor water supply and sanitation facilities.

Madam, it is vital to observe that, though countrywide we have seen over a thousand cholera cases, only nine patients have died. Further, the patients that we lost died because they delayed to get to the health facilities. This shows how prepared the ministry is for the epidemic this year.

Madam Speaker, I wish to sincerely commend all our health workers that are working under difficult conditions, and yet are managing well to save the lives of their fellow citizens. I must inform the House that nowhere else in our country is there cholera other than the places that I have mentioned.

Even in Southern Province which borders Zimbabwe, where cholera has been reported, not a single case has been reported so far. Nonetheless, if a case were to occur today, our health workers in Southern Province are ready to successfully treat such a case.

Madam Speaker, in order to manage cholera and its effects, the Ministry of Health has in place a multi-disciplinary and multi-sectoral prevention, preparedness and control committee. Such a committee is duplicated at province and district levels. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing, being one of the main stakeholders, co-chairs this committee. All health institutions are presently on high alert and are, therefore, treating every case that comes to the health facilities with profuse diarrhoea and vomiting as a case of cholera until proved otherwise.

Madam Speaker, the Government has put in place a number of interventions. The following are some of the activities that are being undertaken by the provincial and district epidemic preparedness and control committees:

(a) promoting the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign;

(b) distribution of domestic chlorine to all cholera prone areas;

(c) intensifying inspection of food and drinking premises in conjunction with the local government authorities;

(d) door to door on-going health education and using multi-media facilities such as leaflets, radio talks and messages read through public address systems;

(e) other community awareness activities include drama in selected public places; and

(f) all health facilities have been instructed to keep stocks of drugs and medical supplies to manage the first fifty cases of cholera while the districts stores maintain stocks for at least 200 patients. Where such stocks are depleted, the Ministry of Health headquarters, through the Medical Stores Limited, has bulk stocks to cater for up to 5,000 cases of cholera. So far, Mpulungu, Nchelenge and Chienge have requested extra stocks which are being constituted in readiness for transportation before this weekend.

Our appeal to the members of the public is to maintain high levels of personal hygiene as follows:

(a) hand washing before and after eating;

(b) hand washing after using the toilet;

(c) all cooked food must be eaten while still hot;

(d) avoid buying cold cooked food from the streets;

(e) disposal of garbage and human waste only in designated places;

(f) boil all drinking water or treat it with domestic chlorine;

(g) avoid unnecessary gatherings; and

(h) any suspected cases of cholera must be taken to the nearest health facility as quickly as possible.

From the foregoing, it is clear that the avoidance of water borne diseases such as cholera is a multi-sectoral undertaking. The Church, traditional leaders and every hon. Member of Parliament has a role to play in ensuring that we rid cholera from our midst.

Madam Speaker, allow me to use this august House to make a passionate appeal to all our co-operating partners to lend support to our efforts to rid ourselves of these water borne diseases. We are aware, as a Government, that it is only through concerted action that we shall adequately address this challenge.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I sincerely appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to thoroughly sensitise their constituencies to keep cholera at bay. It should be regarded as unacceptable for anyone to die from cholera.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement made by the hon. Minister of Health.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Madam Speaker, my concern on cholera is that we have pit latrines and last time they told us that we should put lime in the toilets. Unfortunately, a study that was conducted revealed that lime is not appropriate. It is not doing anything. Is there anything that you are doing to help the people who have pit latrines because they are continuously digging shallow wells?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Matero Constituency for that concern.

There are two things here. Lime is actually effective, but the quantities that we were using proved ineffective. Now, if you have to go by the quantities required, it turns out to be very expensive. Therefore, at the moment, the research into using lime is still going on before we can make a conclusive decision. As of now, we have tasked the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to come up with a solution to the pit latrines. What are we going to do because what happened last time is that even where the pit latrines were buried, either new ones were dug or the old ones were unearthed and so it did not work as was expected. This time, we have sat with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. They will try to come up with a solution in areas where we have pit latrines.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, at the beginning of this year, Lusaka was hit by heavy floods and in March, 2008, some residents in the constituency that I represent wrote a letter to the Ministry of Health in which they raised concern about the non-availability of a sewer reticulation network whose absence caused the flooding. This letter was copied to the Ministry of Works and Supply and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. During the flooding, water mixed with sewer which is one of the most effective ways of transmitting cholera. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health, who is so concerned about cholera this year, why his ministry and the other two ministries to which my residents wrote a letter of complaint did not even have the courtesy to write back.

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for the issue he has just raised.

I must apologise if there has been no correspondence to the letter that he or the constituency wrote to the Ministry of Health. I am sure it is not yet too late to reply to that letter. It is a pity that the hon. Member has to bring up the issue today from March. It would have been better if he had followed it up much earlier, but the issue of contamination of our ground water is a real concern to the Government and plans are being worked out by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to see which areas can quickly be brought into the central sewerage system so that we can reduce on as many pit latrines as possible. In addition, most of the areas in Lusaka right now are being serviced by isolated septic tanks and our water really is not very safe. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing, using the Japanese International Cooperation Agency (JICA), has started looking at how it can bring about a central sewerage system.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for his statement on the cholera situation and cholera alertness in this country.

Madam, the hon. Minister indicated that poor drainage and sanitation in compounds such as Kanyama and Chawama are major conveyors of the disease.

Madam, I appreciate that, but would like to find out from the hon. Minister what this Government has done to make sure that drainages and sanitation are improved in these compounds in order to circumvent an outbreak of cholera.

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, last year, the country experienced flooding in most areas and the worst hit area was Lusaka and Kanyama in particular. Attempts were made to drain this water because as it is, we are told that the whole compound is built on bedrock which is very near to the surface. Therefore, it becomes very difficult for anyone to make any drainage easily in that area.

This year, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is seriously considering making some permanent drainages in that area. As you might have seen in the papers last week, there was an announcement by the Task Force on Cholera that there is a provision of an initial K2 billion to help them start making the drainages in these areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister mention that Livingstone which borders Zimbabwe has not reported any cases of cholera. However, we have other towns which border Zimbabwe such as Kariba and Chirundu. What has your ministry put in place to prevent the influx of people from Zimbabwe where there is cholera into Zambia?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, all border areas and not just the southern side of the country are on alert. The easier things to check at the moment are the kind of merchandise people are bringing into the country. Everyone is being screened for that. At the moment, that is all we can do.

The towns of Chirundu, Kariba and Livingstone are receiving the same attention.

I thank you, Madam.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): I thank you, Madam Speaker, and, through you, would like to commend the hon. Minister for a very timely warning or wake up call, especially in a constituency like Kanyama.

Madam Speaker, cholera is a waterborne disease and Kanyama tops the list of the most flood affected areas. I would like the hon. Minister to assure me that he will help Kanyama, which has only one health centre to cater for 250,000 residents, to alleviate the problem of cholera and improve on the staffing levels at the only health institution in the constituency.

I would appreciate it if the hon. Minister could shed some light on the efforts being made  …

Hon. MMD Members: Ask your question!

Colonel Chanda: The question is: what plans do you have to improve the staffing levels at the only health institution in Kanyama Constituency?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, according to our plans, we would like to concentrate a bit more on prevention measures than on curative ones. The hon. Member of Parliament is rightfully concerned about the curative measures. However, we have decided to carry out a lot of awareness information dissemination, especially to the people in Kanyama, comparable only to election propaganda. 
We want to flood the area with posters, leaflets and bill boards so that everyone can see that the danger which is there, above everything else, is death. We want to take that step first.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the preparedness of the centre, it is very prepared right now to take in the cases that we anticipate.

I would like to make it very clear that there is nothing that can justify the loss of a life. If we have to spend K2 trillion to save one life, we should do that as a Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has just told this House that you have to wash your hands to prevent cholera. It is the Government’s responsibility to provide water. I would like to find out from him where he expects the Zambian people to get the water and wash their hands, without the Government providing the same to the communities.

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, it is regrettable that some areas do not have running water. However, almost all legal settlements have running water. We are struggling with illegally settlements. Yes, it is our responsibility to provide those areas with water too and that is what we are trying to do.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr P. Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, despite the launch of the Keep Zambia Clean Campaign, our townships are still very filthy. What is the Government doing to reduce street vending?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kankoyo for that reminder. I have never referred to Hon. Dr Scott in the House before, but I am sure, in this particular case, he can remind the hon. Member for Kankoyo that in the olden days, the District Commissioners (DCs), who were white, ensured that every house had a toilet and was clean. Those people are gone and now we have hon. Members of Parliament. I think he should find time to tour his constituency and find out if people have places where to throw litter, proper toilets and somewhere to draw water. That is the only way we, as Members of Parliament, can assist because we are all part of the Government.

However, in towns like Lusaka, the local councils have come up with some strategies. They have leased out the collection of garbage to private companies. The problem is that people do not want to cooperate and the companies doing this are being discouraged. If we encourage people in Lusaka to subscribe to companies that are responsible for collecting garbage in designated areas, we shall do a lot. However, everything comes back to us, as hon. Members of Parliament, because even I, who comes from a rural constituency, has to ensure that the constituency is clean.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for drawing attention to me.

Laughter

Dr Scott: When all is said and done regarding personal hygiene theories and cleanliness, the fact, hon. Minister, is that when there are floods in a high density residential area where the faeces float out of the latrines and some people are forced to defecate in that same water, the only way of preventing cholera is by wearing a very large condom over your whole body.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: The question …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is introducing totally new technology.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! If that is really meant to educate the people out there, he will have to explain how.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Otherwise, you have to withdraw that technology whose origins we do not know. You may continue.

Dr Scott: I thank you, Madam Speaker. I was joking, but I was going to say that an obvious solution for areas like Kanyama is to drain them. In view of that, why is the K16 billion that was requested by the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) not being released? Initially, only K6 billion was released and K2 billion has just been released as indicated by the hon. Minister. Where is the remaining K8 billion?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I will only answer the second part of his question. I mentioned earlier that an initial K2 billion has been released to the task force and when I say, ‘an initial’, it means more will be released.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if he is aware that medical staff manning cholera centres do not receive allowances for running these centres. As a result, they shun running these centres and prefer to run antiretroviral clinics (ART) where hefty allowances are given. If he is aware, what is he doing to motivate the people manning these cholera centres?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chingola for that concern.

 I would like to inform this august House that taking care of cholera patients is not done outside the seven days of a week. It is done within the seven days of the week. In short, it is one of their duties. It is not like someone is in the wards performing their normal duties and, at the same time, working in a cholera centre. It is not like that. If the hon. Member is talking about the risks faced by the staff in cholera centres, then that is a different case. However, that concern has been raised and we have put in place a committee to look at the kind of allowances that can be given to these people. Therefore, once this committee recommends that these people should be paid an allowance, then the allowance will be given to those who will be dealing with cholera cases.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, considering that street vending is allowed to take root in years when there are elections and, as a result, we have cholera, is the hon. Minister planning to budget for more money to fight cholera each time there is a presidential or general election because this seems to be a pattern?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether we are talking about Lusaka or the whole country because we are all aware that the worst cases of cholera happen in Lusaka. However, we are looking at other ways of mitigating this problem. For example, we are looking at constructing a lot of toilets in densely populated areas where people can relieve themselves. In future, you will notice an increase in these facilities in towns or areas which are densely populated. I cannot talk about the issue of allowing street vending or not.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

________{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

471. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Vice-President when the Western Province would be compensated in the form of infrastructure development for hosting liberation movements.

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform this august House that shortly after independence in 1964, Zambia hosted liberation movements from neighbouring Mozambique, Namibia, Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, and South Africa in Central, Copperbelt, North Western, Eastern, Lusaka, Southern and Western provinces. This decision opened the newly independent country to vicious military aggression by the colonial regimes which were controlling these neighbouring countries. They attacked bases and economic infrastructure including, among others, the Lungwa Bridge in Eastern Province, Chikumbi, in Central Province, Mboloma-Mkushi, Kavalamanja-Feira, now Luangwa, Shatotwa 1 and 2 in Shang’ombo, Makeni Refugee Camp and Maheba Refugee Camp in Solwezi. All these areas and infrastructure suffered savage attacks and bombing raids by the colonial forces that were in hot pursuit of the rebel combatants, resulting in loss of life and property in Zambia.

The decision to support these liberation movements was strategic to Zambia’s long term interest and independence and, therefore, enjoyed countrywide support albeit amidst mounting economic hardships. Being a landlocked country with no direct access to the sea ports for its exports, Zambia’s trade with Europe, America and the East was curtailed by these surrounding colonial regimes which were inimical to this interest. This, therefore, in effect meant that Zambia could not fully enjoy her independence as its trade routes were blocked by these regimes.

Madam Speaker, Zambia’s role in the liberalisation struggle for Southern Africa made a decisive contribution to the political emancipation of her neighbours thereby opening possibilities for a greater trade and enhanced cooperation.

Madam, Zambia is today able to use the road, rail and seaports of these countries for its exports within the regional groupings of Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and Southern African Development Community (SADC). Through the Tanzania Zambia Railway (TAZARA), Dar-es-Salaam, Durban, Cape Town, Lobito Bay-Maputo, Zambia is able to export her products to overseas markets while, at the same time, serve as a communication hub for the regional groupings of SADC and COMESA. Hence, Zambia’s role in the emancipation of Southern Africa was not in vain.

Madam Speaker, it is against this background that the Government is now implementing the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) to develop and provide infrastructure throughout the country, including in Western Province, based upon the need to open up the whole country to accelerate development. Therefore, the province is already being provided with necessary infrastructure to support its development and does not need to be compensated for its role in the liberalisation struggle to which other provinces equally contributed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Imenda: Madam Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President aware that Western Province has been experiencing more poverty than other provinces as a result of having kept South West African People’s Organisation (SWAPO) and all the liberalisation fighters from Angola and South Africa while other areas in Zambia were free. Why can we not make the Western Province a special case for having  experienced this situation?

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I am sure there are other reasons that can be attributed to the sluggish economic performance of Western Province. The infrastructure destabilisation that was caused by the war was widespread. In Southern Province, we just finished de-mining areas like Sinazongwe. Therefore, the war situation was not confined to Western Province alone, but affected the entire country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

COMMENCEMENT OF FEASIBILITY STUDIES FOR THE LUKULU/KAOMA ROAD

472. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Works and Supply when feasibility studies for the Lukulu/Kaoma Road would commence following the allocation of K1 billion by the Road Development Agency towards the project.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Madam Speaker, the Road Development Agency (RDA) has sent the document to Zambia National Tender Board (ZNTB) for review and the tender will be advertised on Monday, 1st December, 2008, so that the consultant can commence the study. The RDA has included the Lukulu/Kaoma Road in the 2009 annual work plan.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

AREAS EARMARKED FOR ELECTRIFICATION IN 2008

473. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) which areas, countrywide, had been earmarked for electrification in 2008 under the Rural Electrification Programme;

(b) what the total cost of the project at (a) above was; and

(c) which areas countrywide were electrified under the same programme.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Chibombamilimo): Madam Speaker, the Rural Electrification Authority identified a total of eight grid extension projects for implementation in 2008. These include the following:

(a) supply to Shimukuni/4ways in Chibombo District in Central Province;

(b) supply to Kaloko Trust in Masaiti District in Copperbelt Province;

(c) supply to Mahat Maghandi School in Masaiti District in Copperbelt Province;

(d) supply to Mushili School in Masaiti District in Copperbelt Province;

(e) supply to Mulisansolo in Chinsali District in Northern Province;

(f) supply to Ligelengenda School in Chavuma District in North-Western Province;

(g) supply to Kakhoma School in Chavuma District in North-Western Province; and

(h) establish 66/11KV sub-station at Nselauka to complete the electrification of Kaimbwe that started in 2006.

Madam, the authority has also identified public institutions in remote areas which are far from the existing national grid namely schools and health centres to benefit from solar installations in the 2008 Budget.

Madam Speaker, the total cost of the grid extension projects mentioned in one to eight above amount to K16,986,751,451.

Madam, with regard to question (c), we have assumed that the hon. Member of Parliament was referring to the 2007 Budget.

In 2007, K20.57 billion was available to the Rural Electrification Authority for projects and it was able to carry out thirteen grid extension projects which included the following:

(a) supply to Kayosha and Moomba in Chibombo District in Central Province;

(b) supply to Chipapa in Kafue District in Lusaka Province;

(c) supply to Machiya in Mpongwe District in Copperbelt Province;

(d) supply to Undi in Chipata District in Eastern Province;

(e) supply to Mwase in Lundazi District in Eastern Province;

(f) supply to five schools in Mansa District in Luapula Province;

(g) supply to Ngoma & Lunchinze Schools and Sikaneka Community Centre and health centre in Sinazongwe District in Southern Province;

(h) supply to Nselauke School in Kasempa District in North-Western Province.

Madam Speaker, the authority also carried out solar installations to traditional leaders’ palaces in all the nine provinces of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister why the annual work plan …

Mr Simuusa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simuusa: Madam Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. However, I rise on a serious point of order.

Madam Speaker, I wish to know whether the hon. Minister of Education and the Government are in order to remain silent on a judgment, which I have in my hand and will lay on the Table, passed last week by Judge Mukuluwamutiyo in a High Court in Kitwe regarding the case for the non-sitting tenants, mainly miners, and sitting tenants, mostly teachers on the Copperbelt. 

He made a judgment which, in effect, calls for the eviction of over 400 teachers in my constituency and in Mufulira and Kalulushi who are the sitting tenants. This will result in serious consequences.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister and the Government in order to remain silent when this will cause untold misery and trouble on the Copperbelt? Madam, is the Government in order to have failed to solve this problem which has been going on for more than twelve years, resulting in running battles between miners and teachers on the Copperbelt, and resulting in miners paying rent for over twelve years for houses which they should not be renting?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling. Is the Government in order?

Mr Simuusa laid the Paper on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member is wondering why the Government has kept quiet over a judgment passed in a Kitwe court regarding accommodation of teachers and miners, and also why twelve years have gone by without the Government solving the problem.

On the twelve years, the Chair would like to say that unless we know when the case was taken to court, we leave it to the court until a decision is made. The decision or the judgment is said to have come out last week. Looking at the magnitude of the problem, as stated by the hon. Member that has raised this point of order, the Chair sees that it is not something that the hon. Minister should rush to make a statement on because it is not the action that is being queried, but rather the fact that the Government or hon. Minister of Education has kept quiet.

Therefore, the Chair would like to believe that the hon. Minister and the entire Government must be looking at this issue quietly in order to come up with a solution at the right time that will not be negative to either party. One week may not be enough to really look at the judgment and decide which course of action they may take. However, the Chair would urge that the Government looks into this matter as directed, not really by the court, but by what has happened.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister why the Annual Work Plan for 2008 was not given   to hon. Members of Parliament for them to know which projects the Government would do.

Madam Speaker, if you look at the list of projects being done, you will find that the concentration is mainly in Central Province and Ndola Rural. Why is this?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that the work plan was not circulated. However, I do hope that the hon. Members can also find time to seek this information from the appropriate offices. We will ensure that, in future, this is done.

Madam Speaker, there is some malice in the second part of the question where the hon. Member talks about Central Province and Ndola Rural. These are the people who applied. What do you expect?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mulongoti: You should not look at where the applicant is from, but at the fact that, maybe, those who applied knew how to do it and the hon. Member for Chipili did not know how to make the application.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

INTERNATIONAL BOXING CHAMPIONSHIPS

474. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development:

(a) how much was spent to send boxers to Algeria for the International Boxing Championships;

(b) why Zambia was represented by only two boxers at this boxing event; and

(c) what results the two boxers at (b) above brought back home.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Dr Kalila): Madam Speaker, the cost to this Government of sending two boxers and one coach to Algeria for the International Boxing Championships was K38 million.

Madam Speaker, Zambia was represented by only two boxers at this boxing event due to inadequate funds. As regards the results that were brought, the boxers’ performance at this tournament was as follows:

(i) Mr Hastings Bwalya, a Light Welterweight Boxer won a bronze medal and subsequently qualified to the Beijing Olympics;

(ii) Mr Evans Chungu, Flyweight Boxer lost all the fights, and therefore, did not qualify to the Olympics

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 
  
 Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this House that Hastings brought a bronze medal to this country. I would like to find out from him what incentive was given to the boxer

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, first of all, I wish to state that the tournament in question which took place in January, 2008, in Algeria was an African qualifier for the Olympic Games. By virtue of getting the bronze medal, Mr Hastings Bwalya qualified to go and perform at the Olympic Games where he was subsequently eliminated in the preliminaries and did not mint any medal at all.

Madam Speaker, it is the policy of this Government to reward all athletes that perform exceptionally well. However, Mr Bwalya did not bring anything from the Olympics which was the focus of the qualifier in which he took part in Algeria in January.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development whether there are any plans in the ministry to provide boxing facilities for secondary schools and colleges as was the case previously.

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, it is the policy of this working Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Kalila: … to promote all sporting activities. You will recall that last week, my hon. Minister informed this House that there is a programme in the ministry known as ‘Focus on Youth Sports’. In fact, this programme has been running in three provinces as a pilot project to promote various sporting activities, including boxing, among youths both in and out of school. Boxing will benefit from this exercise. Yes, this Government is providing for this programme.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this Government is selective in awarding boxers who come back with honours. I would like to give an example of Mr Kanyanta who has never been awarded anything, but has done a lot for Zambia. Why are you selective?

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, first of all, this Government administers sport through the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ). The NSCZ, which is the official advisor to the Government, in turn, administers sport through the various sporting associations. It is the responsibility of the sporting associations to make representations to the Government as regards which athletes deserve these honours and medals.

Madam, Speaker, this Government will not discriminate in any way neither will it be selective in awarding those athletes that deserve medals.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, boxing is a very dangerous sport with devastating effects on a person’s mental ability in future. In view of the poverty in which the late Lottie Mwale and many other boxers have died, what is this Government doing to make sure that boxers who bring honour to the country have a good future and  do not die in poverty as has been the case in the past?

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, boxing is an internationally recognised sport. Yes, sometimes it can be dangerous, but I would like to inform the hon. Member for Roan that there are safeguards that have been placed in the sport of boxing.

Madam Speaker, in view of the dangers that are associated with boxing, boxers are required to undergo periodic CT Scans to safeguard them from the dangers that the hon. Member mentioned . However, the poverty some of our boxers have found themselves in in the past is not necessarily due to the dangers of boxing, but as a result of the boxers, themselves, having mismanaged their affairs in their glory days.

 I thank you, Madam, Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, in part ‘b’ of the question, the hon. Minister was quite categorical as to why only two boxers went to Algeria citing inadequate funds as the sole reason only two sportsmen went to Algeria. I believe that we have several boxers with as much talent as the two who went. Could the hon. Minister explain to me what selection criteria was used to send only the two boxers considering that the hon. Minister just cited lack of funds?

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central for that intelligent question.

Madam Speaker, the decision to send any athlete or sportsman to an international competition is mainly twofold. Firstly, it is dictated by the availability of funds as I have already stated. It is also dictated by the level of competence of the athlete because you would not want to send athletes simply for the sake of numbers. Otherwise, it becomes an exercise in futility and a waste of Government funds. In this case, the sporting associations which are directly responsible for selecting these athletes made a judgment based on their technical abilities and advised the Government, through the NSCZ that these were the athletes that were to enter into that competition.

Madam Speaker, it is not the policy of this Government to interfere in the selection of athletes at any level of competition.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out why there is so much discrimination regarding financial support to sports disciplines. For example, this Government spends billions of Kwacha to send the national football team to participate in a number of tournaments, and yet when it comes to boxing, it fails to raise money. We are talking of K38 million being spent on two boxers. Therefore, if it meant sending ten or twenty boxers, we were only going to talk about K700 million. Could the hon. Minister clarify why there is so much discrimination with regard to supporting other sports disciplines.

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, it is an honour for me to answer this question from my hon. Member of Parliament because I reside in his constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: First and foremost, the Government does not discriminate in the way it allocates resources to sports’ associations. The Government runs sport through the NSCZ and looks after forty-three associations of which boxing and football are just two of them.

The reason football appears to enjoy a chunk of the resources when it comes to sending athletes outside the country is firstly historic and secondly due to its popularity. Everybody knows that football is the number one sport in this country and enjoys massive support across the political divide.

Madam, it is also an expensive sport because, at any given time, you have to send not less than twenty-five people to an international sporting event. When it comes to funding, it is a question of direct proportion to the number of people that you are sending. Therefore, boxing could be cheaper because you are sending fewer people.

However, the Government is aware of the glory that boxing is bringing to Zambia and everything possible is being done to support it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Well done!

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Let us have order in the House.

MARINE SECTION OF THE ZAMBIA POLICE FORCE

475. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how many police officers in the Marine Section of the Zambia Police Force were trained;

(b) to which police stations were the trained officers above posted, province by province; and

(c) how many of the officers at (a) above had been trained as ocean divers.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Marine Unit has twenty trained officers. The twenty officers are distributed countrywide as follows:

Division                                   Station No.

Western Mongu                             1

Luapula Samfya                             1

 Nchelenge                                     1

Northern Mpulungu                         1 

 Chilubi                                            1

Southern Sinazongwe                    1

Chipepo                                           1

 Livingstone                                     3

Kazungula                                        1

 Siavonga                                         1

 Chirundu                                          1

Lusaka Luangwa                              1

 Lusaka (Service Headquarters)       6

Out of these twenty, four have done the basic diving course. However, Zambia Police has embarked on a program to recruit and train more officers as divers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister’s response is a clear indication that the number of divers trained is minimal. When is the Government going to consider training more divers so that it can cater for the whole nation?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, certainly, we have realised that the numbers in this unit are very few. The establishment is supposed to have seventy officers. Currently, for the three stations that we have, only twenty officers are manning the section.

We have taken note of that. This section certainly needs special focus. In our recruitment plans, we want to focus on this together with the dog and mountain sections of the police. Therefore, there are plans to beef up manpower levels in this section.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister explain to us the purpose of keeping six divers at the Zambia Police Headquarters in Lusaka?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, these are not divers as such. These are police officers trained as marine experts. The reason we have six in Lusaka is because some of them are instructors, giving in-service training and refresher courses to those that are in-service. The rest man the workshop. We have our own workshop to repair and service marine equipment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ACQUISITION OF MODERN SPEED BOATS FOR THE POLICE

476. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how many modern speed boats had been acquired for police operations countrywide from 2000 to 2007; and

(b) how the distribution had been done.

Mr Bonshe: Madam Speaker, no modern speed boats were purchased from 2000 to 2007 for police operations due to lack of funds.

However, this year, 2008, two speed boats have been procured and seven have been rehabilitated.

The seven rehabilitated speed boats were distributed as follows:

District                 Number

Siavonga                    1

Kazungula                  1

Nchelenge                  1

Samfya                       1

Mpulungu                    1

Chipepo                      1

Itezhi-Tezhi                 1

One of the two newly procured boats will be sent to Nchelenge as there are many activities on the lake which has many islands. The other boat will be taken to Siavonga.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, the marine section is the most under-funded section in the Zambia Police Force. May I find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs whether there will be an increment for the section in the 2009 Budget?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I realise the need for us to be a bit more specific, but I do not think we can say that. Suffice to say that we realised that there is need to beef up manpower levels and procure more equipment in this section. I think that is adequate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

NUMBER OF BOREHOLES SUNK IN EASTERN PROVINCE

477. Mr R. C. Banda (Milanzi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how many boreholes had been sunk in the Eastern Province from 2005 to 2007, district by district.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that 343 boreholes were sunk in Eastern Province as follows:

District          2005        2006     2007     Total

Chipata           31            44          3          78

Chadiza           0               0           0           0

Chama             0               0            0          0

Katete            42               0           2          44

Petauke        101             38           8        147

Nyimba           63               1            0         64

Mambwe          2               0            0           2

Lundazi            8               0            0           8

Total             247             83          13        343

Madam, during the period under review, there was no programme to drill boreholes in Chama and Chadiza. However, a number of water points were sunk in Chama and Chadiza during the period 2000 to 2004. The option of putting up water points was reached after realising that some areas in Chama were not suitable for drilling boreholes. Likewise, boreholes could not be drilled in Chadiza because of a sparse population. As such, water points (wells), which were cheaper and could service small communities, were dug.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr R.C. Banda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that Katete got only forty-seven boreholes. Is he aware that the people of Katete, Milanzi in particular, are still sharing water points with their domestic animals? I would like to know when he will make sure that people are provided with adequate water.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that supplementary question. I would like to confirm that the statement is not correct because during the elections, I was in Milanzi with the hon. Deputy Minister of Defence and we did not see any animal sharing well water with the people. So, I would like to state that that is not a correct statement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is on record  for discouraging people putting up wells since, as they claim, the water from there is not good. Could the hon. Minister explain why he is now emphasising the construction of wells in Chadiza when he knows that the ministry has been discouraging the putting up of shallow wells.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, my reply to that question is that those wells were put up between 2005 and 2007. Currently, we are putting up boreholes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I would like to put it on record and confirm that there were no wells in Chadiza during the years which the hon. Minister mentioned.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mbewe: Secondly, I would like to put it on record that the wells in Chadiza were made in the colonial days. I would, therefore, like to find out what criteria were used to give Chadiza and Chama zero wells when the other districts received many.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I do not want to blame anybody for the lack of boreholes in the period under which the question has been asked. I will stick to the answer that from 2005 to 2007 we did not sink any boreholes in Chadiza and Chama. It is up to hon. Member of Parliament to come to our ministry and ask for boreholes for their constituencies.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, hon. Members are elected to make sure that what the people want in constituencies is done. That is why you find that in 2005, the Government put up 101 boreholes in constituencies like Petauke. We had thirty-six boreholes in 2006 and had eight boreholes in 2007 bringing the number to 147. This is the case because the hon. Members of Parliament were active and ensured that their people were supplied with water.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: If you are not going to be active by coming to our ministry to tell us what you want in your constituency, I can assure you that there will be no borehole in your constituency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I and other hon. Members of Parliament from Lundazi District have actively pursued your ministry to provide boreholes in the constituencies in Lundazi District, but regrettably only eight were provided in the period given. Can this hon. Minister tell assure us that, next year, or this time around, you will provide more boreholes since we campaigned vigorously for you.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I would like to concede that the hon. Member did campaign for us in the 2008 Presidential Elections. However, supplying water is not supposed to be just to the people who campaigned for us because this Government is for everybody, including members of the Patriotic Front who may be planning to demonstrate. We are going to supply water to every constituency …

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: … because we are the Government which has been given the mandate to govern up to 2011.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Speaker, noting that the question of potable water for Zambians is critical, what is the Government’s policy on this – I wish the hon. Minister can help us understand. What is the Government’s policy on the distribution of boreholes in the country, particularly that there are some areas which have serious deficits in existing supplies.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba, who is the Chief Executive of our party, for that question.

Madam Speaker, the policy of this Government is to make sure that any Zambian who needs water, is supplied with water if the money is available. That is why this Government has been sinking boreholes according to the demands of the constituencies and the people. Therefore, our policy is to supply water to our citizens depending on the availability of finances.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon, Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

PROVISION OF VEHICLES AND ROAD CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE EQUIPMENT TO SMALL DISTRICT COUNCILS

478. Mr R. C. Banda asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Government would provide small district councils with vehicles and road construction and maintenance equipment.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musosha): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government, through my Ministry, has a programme to build capacity in councils and this includes giving grants to councils to procure vehicles, tractors, boats and other pieces of equipment for use by the local authorities. To this effect, my ministry procured 150 vehicles that have been distributed to all councils to enhance the ‘Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign Programme’.

Additionally, Madam Speaker, my ministry has procured thirty tractors and trailers and sixteen multi-purpose speed boats to improve the transport situation in councils. Last year, the Government, through the Ministry of Works and Supply, procured various pieces of road maintenance equipment which have been distributed to all provincial centres for use by all, including district councils, in the country. The hon. Member of Parliament for Milanzi can access this road maintenance equipment through Eastern Province administration.

Madam Speaker, I wish to mention that the Government has also been assisting councils service existing graders through the provision of operations and maintenance funds.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr R. C. Banda: Madam Speaker, as a resident of Milanzi which is a rural area, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the ministry is going to ensure that the graders in places like Katete are rehabilitated to enable us to use them in the rural feeder road programmes. I know he has said that they have released thirty tractors which have gone to urban districts …

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. My neighbour is is talking about grading roads in the rural areas and I can only assume these roads are for agricultural purposes. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives in order to issue a ministerial statement this week on the issue of fertiliser and the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP)? Last night, I saw him on television instructing one of the companies to distribute fertiliser by the weekend without specifying who the beneficiaries of this fertiliser were.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: I was in my constituency this morning and there was confusion between civil servants and the small vulnerable, but viable farmers who have been getting assistance from the Government, in terms of who is eligible to get the 80,000 tonnes of fertiliser. The civil servants had their money paid and are now going to get the fertiliser, while the peasants or small-scale farmers are being basically crowded out of this programme, which is a very good Government programme. Is the hon. Minister in order to instruct that fertiliser, which will end up with non-viable and non-vulnerable salaried civil servants, should be delivered? I need a serious ruling since …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: We are now planting and over the weekend I want to go and help the people in my constituency to plant. The fertiliser is getting into the hands of people that are already rich. Is he in order?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Bwela kuno.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! It seems the point of order has a lot of answers from the hon. Members. However, serious as that point of order may be, the Chair has not seen any contradiction between the statement made by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives and the situation on the ground.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister’s statement could only be enhanced by that question, if the hon. Member needs a clarification from the Government on who are the beneficiaries. I think that is the hon. Member’s concern, but the hon. Minister’s statement was on the distribution of fertiliser. However, the Chair is also careful to say, she did not watch the hon. Minister give instructions, and, therefore, it would be making a ruling in a vacuum without that information. One can say also that the policy of the Government now covers civil servants. So, the concern of the hon. Member for Chilanga would be, is the fertiliser enough? That is another question that the hon. Minister can handle. However, the hon. Minister was in order to inform this House that fertiliser had been distributed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Milanzi may continue.

Mr R. C. Banda:  Thank you, Madam Speaker, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr R. C. Banda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister in his answer to my earlier question indicated that thirty tractors were procured by the ministry and distributed to the districts and that the servicing of graders will be done and that the Government has procured heavy equipment to do road rehabilitation.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that this heavy equipment that has been procured is being used to do major trunk roads in the districts. May I know whether the hon. Minister and the ministry have made adequate arrangements to ensure that these councils repair their graders to service the small roads that service the rural community that may not be serviced by these large graders.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, sometime back, the former Minister of Works and Supply who is now the hon. Minister of Health, appointed councils throughout this country as road authorities. Therefore, the advertising of works for feeder roads and roads in the districts is supposed to be done by the councils, of course, depending on their ability. The council the hon. Member of Parliament comes from, which is Katete, was also appointed as a road authority. The same Government, through the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, ordered equipment from China.  The former Minster of Works and Supply and the current President received the equipment and decided to send it to every province. The Provincial Ministers, who are sitting on the last bench on your right, each have this equipment under their custody.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the procedure is that the hon. Members of Parliament in each province sit and agree on which feeder roads are supposed to be done. In the province where I come from, North-Western Province, we have decided to start from Chavuma, Zambezi and so on before coming to Solwezi. The equipment which the hon. Province Ministers have is not for trunk roads. Trunk roads are maintained by the Road Development Agency (RDA) and not with the equipment that we have at the provincial level.

Madam Speaker, with respect to that equipment, I would like to appeal to the hon. Member of Parliament for Milanzi, if he is not yet acquainted with the procedures of using the equipment, to humbly go and see the energetic hon. Minister who has been appointed for Eastern Province …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … or the former Eastern Province hon. Minister. They will be able to advise him on how to use the equipment.

Madam Speaker, as regards the grader for the council in Katete, I can confirm to you …

Mr Kambwili: Talemfwa nokumfwa, uyo ale shimika.

Mr Tetamashimba: … that the former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, …

Mr Kambwili: Iwe akumfwa, niwe waipwishe question (pointing at Mr R. C. Banda). Ichimutwe.

Mr Tetamashimba: …who has been the architect of all these programmes such as the distribution of vehicles to all the 150 constituencies and so on, had released some money to Katete for the repair of the grader. Secondly, the former hon. Minister even released money to repair the boreholes. Therefore, the hon. Member of Parliament is supposed to be interested in what is happening in his constituency. If he is not going to have the interest which appears to be the case, it will be difficult for him to come back in 2011.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

PAYMENT OF HOUSING ALLOWANCE TO POLICE OFFICERS

479. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether police officers who were not accommodated were paid housing allowance and, if so, at what percentage.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that all police officers who are not accommodated are paid housing allowance according to salary scales as stipulated in the Public Service Management Division Circular No. B. 9 of 2008.

These rates are as follows:

 Scale        Rate per month

 PSS 2         K860,000.00
 PSS 3         K760,000.00
 PSS 4         K680,000.00
 PSS 5         K570,000.00
 PSS 6         K470,000.00
 PSS 8         K360,000.00
 PSS 9         K320,000.00
 PSS 10       K280,000.00
 PSS 11       K250,000.00
 PSS 12/13  K200,000.00

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, it is common knowledge that officers in the rank of inspector and below fall within the scales PSS 8 to12. How is a police officer expected to rent decent accommodation with K200,000 when here in Lusaka, a K200,000 house can only be found in Kalingalinga?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, we realise that these levels are certainly very low. However, we need to realise that the figures are subject to periodic review by Cabinet Office as they are not static. On the other hand, it is important to bear in mind that the long-term solution to this problem is not housing allowance, but promotion of home ownership schemes, which is on course. Officers do get house loans and some of them are putting up houses from these loans.

The second way to address the problem is long-term construction or procurement of finished houses for our police officers and this we are doing as well. So far, we have purchased houses in Kasama, Mpika, Mongu and Solwezi and the programme is on-going.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, there was a programme by the Ministry of Home Affairs to procure a brick moulder with a view to constructing houses for police officers. I would like to find out whether that programme has now been shelved.
Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I would like to confirm that the programme is on and has not been shelved.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, talking about home ownership, may I find out from the hon. Minister how it benefits a police officer who is supposed to be transferred from one place to another.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, home ownership does not specify a particular geographical location where officers can buy houses. They can buy a house anywhere in the country and that is being done. All that an officer needs to do is to identify a plot of land, get a loan and start building. It does not matter where it is done. As long as it is within our borders and one is a Zambian citizen, he or she can reside anywhere.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs whether there is a deliberate programme to engage the local authorities in accessing the land to be allocated to police officers so that they can be able to construct their own accommodation looking at the difficulties that the ministry is having in providing accommodation for the officers.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I would like to confirm that the officers concerned as well as the Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Zambia Police Service, is liaising with local authorities to ensure that land is available for police officers to construct houses. As I said, we have already procured pieces of land in several parts of the country and construction is on-going.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

DISPLAYING OF WARNING SIGNS BEFORE SPEED TRAP CAMERAS

480. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Home Affairs why traffic police officers did not display warning signs 100 metres from the position where they mounted speed trap cameras.

Mr Bonshe: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that traffic police officers do not display warning signs because the operation is meant to trap the erring over-speeding motorists.

Laughter

Mr Bonshe: Hon. Members should note that there are speed limit signs posted all over the country and these are what motorists should observe.

The police display warning signs, at least, 100 metres away for check points and road blocks only.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, in view of the answer given by the hon. Minister, I would like to find out the utmost motive of the police. Is it to save lives, deter people from over-speeding or trap them so that the police can raise some money on behalf of the Government?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, the ultimate aim is to save the lives of the individuals driving as well as other road users. We do not think that it is appropriate to warn offenders that there is a speed trap ahead of them. They must observe traffic lights and the speed limits which are posted all over the country. If you are driving in a built up area, there is a sign warning you that you should not go beyond 50 or 60 kilometres per hour. If you do not observe that, they will obviously catch you. If you are on a highway, you should not go beyond 120 kilometres per hour. Nobody will go scot-free if they disobey the rules. Everybody is subject to this law regardless of their station in life so as to save the lives of those who drive and other road users.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I seek clarification from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs …

Interruptions

The Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Chair would like to hear the hon. Member on the Floor.

Mr Mwenya: … on the speed control equipment. Right now, the little equipment in most of the districts is broken down. For example, Kitwe does not have any speed control equipment. What is the Ministry of Home Affairs doing to make sure that all the districts have adequate speed control equipment?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I want to assure the hon. Member that we have procured thirty more pieces of equipment for use on the roads. They will be stationed at all the places where they will be needed to ensure that traffic laws, for instance, speed limits are observed.

I thank you, Madam.

LUANO VALLEY

481. Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South) asked the Minister of agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) when agricultural extension officers would be sent to Luano Valley in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) whether there were any plans to introduce crops suitable for the valley areas in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Madam Speaker, agricultural extension officers will be deployed to the two agricultural camps namely; Mboloma and Ching’ombe, in Luano Valley in Mkushi South Constituency, when staff accommodation facilities are rehabilitated and put in place. At the moment, the house at Mboloma camp is dilapidated and, therefore, needs rehabilitation while Ching’ombe camp has no house.

Madam,  there are plans to introduce other crops suitable for the valley areas in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency, which include cassava and sorghum, although these crops are not popular in that area. Currently, the people in the valley areas are engaged in winter maize production.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mbewe: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what incentives they are putting in place to ensure these camp officers stay in their respective camps?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Madam Speaker, come next year, through the budget, we will rehabilitate the houses, where these are available, and start constructing where they are not available. We believe that this is a very powerful non-monetary incentive that will assist us to keep the camp officers in those areas.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the Head of State is currently in Nigeria where he has gone to see the kind of crops that they grow there. I am sure that he is also going to find out which crops would be suitable for the valley areas such as Mkushi. I would like to find out why he did not include one of the many Ministers of Agriculture and Co-operatives on that trip.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The question of who is included on the trip cannot be answered by the hon. Minister.

MEASURES TAKEN TO PRESERVE TIMBER IN ZAMBIA

482. Mr Chisanga asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources what measures the Government had taken to reduce the following:

(a) indiscriminate cutting down of trees in Ndola, Kitwe and Luanshya; and

(b) transport of timber to Botswana on a daily basis.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Madam Speaker, my ministry, through the Forestry Department, is addressing the indiscriminate cutting down of trees both in the forest reserves and in open areas of Ndola, Luanshya and Kitwe and every part of the country through a number of measures.
One such measure is strengthening of monitoring the harvest of forest products by licensed as well as illegal harvesters. In this regard, the ministry has established teams at provincial and district offices to conduct patrols in the forest and mount road blocks in conjunction with Zambia Police and local authorities. Therefore, all those who are found breaking the law are brought to book. As for those with a licence, once evidence is adduced that they are also cutting down trees illegally, their licences are revoked and they are made to pay a penalty.

Madam Speaker, there is no law in place that stops the transportation of timber from Zambia to Botswana as long as it is legally harvested.

Laughter

Mr Mwangala: The transportation of timber to Botswana or any other foreign country is regulated by the Timber Export Policy and Regulation. Before any timber consignment destined for export leaves the country, it must have certification from the forestry department.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simama (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam!

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for affording me this rare opportunity to raise a point of order on the MMD Government. As you may be aware, this House passed the Citizenship Empowerment Act two years ago. From the time of its enactment, we have heard conflicting statements from the commission that manages this particular fund. Recently, we have seen and heard advertisements where they have been advising Zambians to approach commercial banks with a view to obtaining application forms upon payment of a fee. We are also aware that in most constituencies in this country there are no banks and that the intention of this particular fund was to assist the impoverished and underprivileged members of our society.

Therefore, is the Government in order to remain silent and not address this House pertaining to the conflicting guidelines when our people who are supposed to be benefiting from this fund are failing to access the money?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The concern of the hon. Member for Monze is with regard to the implementation, particularly the guidelines on the disbursement of the Economic Empowerment Fund, a law that passed through this House. His concern is that the money has gone to banks and that members of the community are supposed to approach these banks and pay a fee to get the forms for them to access the funds for their projects. The concern is that the guidelines are not clear and this House that passed the law would like to know exactly what is happening.

The Chair, in this meeting, would like to ask the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to bring a short statement to give the actual guidelines to the House, particularly that hon. Members will go on recess and they may need to guide their constituents. We need that tomorrow.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Kalulushi may continue.

Mr Simama: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Is the hon. Minister aware that timber, mostly pterocarpus angolensis (mukwa), burkia plurijuga (teak) and rosewood, which is sold to South Africa, creates jobs for South Africans who add value to the timber by making furniture? This timber comes back to Zambia in form of furniture which is very expensive. What plans has the hon. Minister to curb this trend?

The Minister of Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Speaker, yes, indeed, mukwa is a very high value timber and we are aware that most of it goes to South Africa. However, we continue to encourage Zambians to set up enterprises that can turn this raw timber into finished products. The Government cannot do this. It must be done by the Zambians themselves who should become more enterprising and realise the value of our timber.

I thank you, Madam.
ESTABLISHMENT OF A TREATMENT CENTRE FOR HIV/AIDS POSITIVE PEOPLE IN CHIPANGALI CONSTITUENCY

483. Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali) asked the Minister of Health when the ministry would establish a treatment centre for HIV/AIDS positive people in Chipangali Parliamentary Constituency since many of them could not afford to travel to the nearest centre in Chipata.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, treatment for HIV in the public sector was introduced in 2003 after the Government of the Republic of Zambia made a policy decision to make Anti-Retroviral Therapy (ART) accessible to all citizens. It was planned that the provision of this treatment was to be scaled up in phases beginning with hospitals and rolling out to include health centres. The first phase was initiated in two pilot sites, namely, the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and Ndola Central Hospital with 2,000 clients enrolled. Thereafter, the scale up continued as follows:

(a) in 2004, the enrolment phase, eight facilities were added and 15,328 clients were on ART;

(b) in 2005, expansion phase, sixty-two facilities were added and 51,764 clients were on ART; and

(a) in 2006, the consolidation phase, fifty-seven health centres and seven hospitals were added.

Currently, we have 331 health facilities that provide treatment for HIV positive people nationwide in all seventy-two districts and we have over 200,000 people on treatment…

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! When there is so much talking on both sides, it is so difficult for the Chair to follow. Can we, please, if we have to consult or talk about anything at all do it in very low voices so that we give an opportunity to the Chair to hear and understand what is being said. It is not easy to follow the debate. The Chair must follow everything that is being said whether you like it or not. The Chair has no option. Can you give an opportunity, please, to the Chair to hear. Hon. Members on both sides of the House must lower their voices.

May the hon. Deputy Minister continue, please.

Mr Akakandelwa: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will go through the answer again.

Currently, we have 331 health facilities that provide treatment for HIV positive people nationwide in all the seventy-two districts and we have over 200,000 people on treatment. Plans are underway to scale up the number of sites providing Anti-Retroviral Therapy to 600,000 by the year 2010. We need to note that the provision of Anti-Retroviral Treatment is complex. As such, it is of great importance to ensure that before a health facility is able to provide anti-retroviral treatment, it meets a minimum accreditation standard that will ensure that our citizens are availed effective and safe quality services. To mention but a few of these standards,  accreditation aims to ensure that the different cadres of health personnel providing the various aspects of treatment are trained to do so and that access to monitoring is ensured and that management of the various required logistics can be done. Of the 331 ART sites, there are currently 23 sites in the Eastern Province, though we currently do not have an ART site in Chipangali Constituency. The plan provides that where a health centre exists, it should become an ART site as long as it meets the minimum accreditation criteria.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

484. Mr V. Mwale asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether the ministry was aware of the high crime rate in Chitandika and Chipangali areas in Chipangali Parliamentary Constituency and, if so, what measures had been taken to establish a police post in the two areas.

Mr Bonshe: Madam Speaker, I wish to state that the crime rate in Chitandika and Chipangali areas in Chipangali Parliamentary Constituency is not alarming.

Mr V. Mwale: Imwe, bantu bapayana ati it is not alarming?

Mr Bonshe: The establishment of a police post in a given area depends on a host of factors namely:

(a) levels of crime;

(b) population of the area; and

(c) economic activities.

A feasibility study needs to be undertaken to ascertain the need and suitability of establishing a police post in the area. Once it is established that the crime rate is high in Chipangali, a mobile police team will be sent there.

Madam, it should also be noted that to establish a police post, a suitable location should be cited and the building should be of a required standard.

Meanwhile, instructions have been issued to the Inspector-General of Police to establish a neighbourhood watch and the area Member of Parliament is hereby encouraged to co-operate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr V. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the response given by the hon. Deputy Minister. However, is he aware that even the only police post that we have in the constituency, which was serving seven chiefs and 130,000 people, had its roof blown off and, therefore, there is no police post?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, we are certainly not aware. Now that we are aware, we will take steps to address the situation. I would like to invite the hon. Member to take keen interest in the matter so that we can work together and alleviate the problem that we have just identified.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has said that in order to set up a police post, there are a number of factors that have to be considered. May I be educated as to whether the ministry continually assesses these factors in each area or it is expected that society will come to them as and when the problems escalate.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, there are two ways of doing this. One is to be prompted by the communities themselves. After identifying the need for a police post, they will approach our office, the ministry or the police command.

Upon that request, the police will move into the area and assess the level of crime, population and economic activities. They then will decide on whether or not to have a police post.

Madam, usually, members of the public would support the project, for instance, by moulding the blocks for the construction of the police post and the police command would provide personnel to man the post.

Madam Speaker, the other way is for the police to be prompted by their own investigations. In this case, they would determine that there is a need to establish a police post in a certain area even without receiving a formal request. They would still follow the three levels of assessment which are the level of crime, population and the economic activities. They would, then, proceed to have a police post constructed.

 I thank you, Madam

PATHOLOGISTS IN ZAMBIA

485. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many pathologists were practising in Zambia, province by province ; and

 (b) how many pathology laboratories were currently in the country.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, there are currently six pathologists practising in Zambia. Two are based at the University Teaching Hospital, one at the Maina Soko Military Hospital and one at Ndola Central Hospital. The other one is a private practitioner based in Lusaka, while the other is under the Police Service. In addition, two doctors are undergoing training in pathology.

It should be noted that these pathologists will undertake their duties in all the provinces as need arises.

Madam Speaker, there are three pathology laboratories in Zambia. One is at the University Teaching Hospital, another at the Ndola Central Hospital and the third one at the Kitwe Central Hospital.

 However, all the provinces have clinical laboratories from where specimens are collected to take to the pathology laboratories.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, it is common sense that the six pathologists are over-worked and abused. What plans have been put in place to attract more people to train or to recruit more pathologists to reduce on the delay of cases?

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Madam Speaker, there are plans right now to increase on the number of doctors being trained in and outside the country. I think we are now reaching levels of at least sixty to eighty interns a year compared to five years back when there were only forty or less interns each year.

However, pathology is one of the most difficult lines of medicine and there are quite a number of people that have attempted to pursue it, but have failed.

We do encourage people to study pathology and there have been attempts to do so. I know of a few that have tried it for the last five years and are still in the United Kingdom. They cannot make it. It is a very difficult line of medicine. We do encourage as many Zambians as possible to study pathology.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Madam Speaker, may the hon. Minister be very specific. I think the supplementary question that the previous speaker posed was about the specific measures being undertaken to train more pathologists as opposed to the Government just encouraging them.

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I do not understand the question from the hon. Member of Parliament. We are sending people to study pathology, but they are failing to make it. What else do you want us to do?

Laughter

Mr Simbao: We just cannot mention names here.

Dr Katema: Awe!

Mr Simbao: Somebody is saying awe? We have names. There is only one person who has gone to study pathology and done it very well. That person is Doctor Mudenda.

Hon. Member: The Tonga Bull.

Mr Simbao: Most of them fail and branch off to other lines of medicine. What do you want us to do?

I thank you Madam.

Dr Katema (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Health aware that, at the moment, it takes about six to eight months to get pathologic results from the provincial centres that he is talking about? By the time the results arrive, the patients would have been long dead. What is the Government doing, in the interim, to solve this problem?

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament who has asked that question is a medical doctor. He knows that pathology is referred to as, ‘Too late the hero’. It is diagnostic of success, in most cases, on something that is already late.

Interruptions

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Simbao: I am glad that everybody is saying yes. That is the truth.

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Simbao: There may be certain cases, for example, of cancer, but that is different. In most cases, these people try to find the cause so that if it appears in somebody else, it can be prevented. It is true that moving samples from one province to another causes delays, but until we establish more pathology laboratories in other centres, we are likely to continue facing this delay.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that we have only one forensic pathologist who is extremely overworked? Does he realise that, although he talked about Dr Mudenda, this branch of medicine is unattractive? What is he doing to attract more doctors to this discipline?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, what happens in the sciences is that the attraction of the day pulls most of the people. When you go to medicine, if the in-thing at that particular time is orthopaedics, then more doctors will try to do orthopaedics. If at another time, the attraction is pathology, you will find that more doctors will try to do pathology.

Madam Speaker, pathology is a very difficult line of medicine and people must understand this. It has to take a person’s real interest to do it because these doctors deal with things that most people would rather run away from. It is a very difficult line of medicine. We hope that by this discussion today, most of our doctors that are on internship and those who are still in school will start thinking of doing pathology so that they can help us have as many doctors trained in pathology as possible. However, we cannot force people to do something they do not want to do. That is not possible. That is what sciences determine.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

________{mospagebreak}

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON THE AUDITOR-GENERAL’S REPORT ON THE ACCOUNTS FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31ST DECEMBER, 2006

Mr B. Y. Mwila (Nchelenge): Madam Speaker, …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Show interest in what is happening in the House.

Mr B. Y. Mwila: … I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the Public Accounts Committee on the report of the Auditor-General on the accounts for the financial year ended 31st December, 2006 for the second session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 21st November, 2008.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Madam Speaker, the report that is before the House is quite voluminous, not because there were more financial irregularities during the period under review, but because the Auditor-General’s Office has been strengthened in terms of the human resource, equipment, transport and office accommodation. This has enabled the office to audit more ministries, provinces and spending agencies. The enhancement of the capacity at the Office of the Auditor-General has been made possible through the Government of the Republic Zambia and the cooperating partners.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Y. Mwila: To these, the Public Accounts Committee wishes to convey their profound gratitude. Zambia is on the right track to improve financial accountability in the public sector.

As can be observed from the report, the Auditor-General audited forty ministries, provinces and spending agencies, including seventeen Zambian missions abroad. This was, indeed, commendable.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the irregularities, what was witnessed is the same old story of misappropriation of revenue, misapplication of funds, unretired imprest, unsupported payments, unaccounted for funds, unaccounted for stores, delayed banking, over-payment and failure to follow tender procedures. What would be of interest to the House is, perhaps, the movement in the reported figures associated with specific irregularities in two financial years, 2005 and 2006.

Madam, as an illustration, I have picked on three reported irregularities: misapplication of funds; misappropriation of revenue; and unretired imprest in the two highest spending ministries: notably education and health.

Misappropriation of Revenue

Madam Speaker, in 2005, the Ministry of Health had incidents of misappropriation amounting to K1.3 billion. In 2006, none was reported.

In 2005, the Ministry of Education had incidents of misappropriation amounting to K19.1 million. In 2006, only K3.2 million was reported.

This seems to suggest that there was an improvement in both ministries.

Misapplication of Funds

In 2005, the Ministry of Health was reported to have had incidents of misapplication amounting to K6.9 billion. In 2006, the amount rose to K28 billion.

Madam Speaker, in 2005, the Ministry of Education was reported to have had cases of misapplication of funds amounting to K146 million. In 2006, the amount increased to K2.3 billion. The figures suggest that the situation was deteriorating in both ministries. An analysis of the responses from controlling officers reveals that misapplication arose mainly due to inadequate Budget allocations and subsequent releases. Due to pressing matters, ministries were left with no option but to vary funds. The concern of your Committee is the failure by controlling officers to seek authority when they vary funds.

Madam Speaker, another worrisome development is the misapplication of poverty reduction programme funds sometimes, to meet recurrent departmental charges. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning needs to put a stop to this practice forthwith.

Unretired Imprest

Madam Speaker, in 2005, reported unretired imprest in the Ministry of Health amounted to the sum of K804 million. In 2006, the amount increased to K4.4 billion.

In 2005, the Ministry of Education is reported to have had unretired imprest amounting to K17.4 billion. In 2006, the amount reduced to K7.5 billion.

Madam Speaker, this shows an improvement in the Ministry of Education, while the situation was getting worse in the Ministry of Health. The Secretary to the Treasury and the controlling officers informed your Committee that measures had been put in place to minimise the irregularities. However, their effectiveness is yet to be seen.

The comparisons I have made above do not tell much and it is difficult to determine whether we are making progress or not.

Madam Speaker, my point is that, quite clearly, the irregularities are well documented. Therefore, the Executive has to put in place practical measures that will lead to a reduction in the amounts associated with these recurring irregularities.
Madam Speaker, your Committee have observed that one of the great challenges of minimising accounting irregularities in the Public Service is the question of discipline. The Public Service operates on a bureaucratic system, which, essentially, is following rules and procedures. What we are witnessing in Zambia is a bureaucratic system where rules and procedures are disregarded, in some cases, blatantly so.

Madam, your Committee have concluded that it is very difficult to discipline erring officers in the Public Service. As long as this remains so, all efforts to improve accountability and transparency will not yield any tangible results.

Madam, what needs to be done is to review the existing disciplinary procedures and make them more relevant to the current situation. The review should also take into account Public Service workers who are on contract. In this case, I am specifically referring to controlling officers, who, in most cases, are permanent secretaries.

Your Committee, therefore, wish to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to take action on this matter as it is cardinal.

Madam Speaker, in this technologically advanced era, we, in Zambia, are still grappling with the problem of poor record-keeping leading to a high number of payments being unsupported. In 2005, unsupported payments amounted to K18.2 billion from the number of audited institutions. In 2006, unsupported payments totalled K12.6 billion. Even if there seems to be an improvement, record keeping should not be a major problem in the Public Service as computer technology has made this task much easier.

Madam Speaker, outstanding unretired imprest is also, to a certain extent, attributed to poor record-keeping. However, outstanding imprest is also a result of lack of discipline although the figure on unretired imprest in the audited institutions decreased from K23.6 billion in 2005 to K18.6 billion in 2006. There is a lot that needs to be done to make officers more accountable when they draw imprest.

Madam Speaker, it is the hope of your Committee that the long awaited Integrated Financial Management and Information System (IFMIS) will be rolled out in 2009 to address some of the problems that I have highlighted above.

Madam Speaker, let me end by thanking the members of the Public Accounts Committee, the Auditor-General and the Accountant-General for the wonderful work they did during the year which culminated in this report that is before the House. By the way, this report contains valuable recommendations, which, if implemented, will lessen financial mismanagement in the public sector.

Madam, I also wish to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support and advice you rendered to the Committee during their deliberations.

Madam Speaker, lastly, I wish to appreciate the co-operation of controlling officers of the institutions and provinces that were audited. I wish to advise controlling officers that they can avoid being mentioned in the Auditor-General’s Report by simply attending to audit queries when the audit process is on. The audit process has many stages at which the queries can be cleared.

With these comments, Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I wish to second the Motion that has been ably moved by the Acting Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee. The mover has, in broad terms, highlighted the major issues contained in the report. I will, therefore, address myself to some specific issues.
Madam Speaker, let me begin by commending the Auditor-General for the important work she has continued to carry out in the nation to enhance accountability in the use of public resources. It is anybody’s guess what would be happening if the Office of the Auditor-General was not functioning in the manner that it does. This is not to say that they are operating at their optimum, but under the current circumstances, they are performing in a satisfactory way. With a bit more support from the Government, they can do better.

Madam Speaker, your Committee and, indeed, the House, have been assured on a yearly basis that the Government is taking a number of measures to improve accountability. Measures mentioned so far include:

(a) implementation of the Integrated Financial Management and Information System (IFMIS) which is long over due;

(b) enhancement of the commitment control system which programme is yet to be piloted;

(c) setting up of revenue monitoring units;

(d) training of revenue collectors; and

(e) establishment of the Treasury and cash management department which is still at consultation stage.

Madam Speaker, your Committee appreciate these efforts but a lot more needs to be done. The following were specifically observed.

(a) the public audit process is still not fully appreciated in many Government institutions. In the previous report, it was mentioned that the audit process is a management tool that is supposed to be used to enhance performance. It is absolutely not necessary for controlling officers to be apprehensive when auditors expose ills in their respective institutions. This is supposed to serve as an opportunity to take corrective action and constructively engage the auditors in resolving some issues that may be more or less misunderstandings.

However, Madam, your Committee has, on a number of occasions, found itself playing the role of referee with controlling officers disputing audit findings. Auditors do not come unannounced or exist in a secret way. An entrance meeting is always held with the officials of the respective institution being audited. In addition, the Auditor-General will always avail the controlling officers with inspection reports, audit reference sheets and draft paragraphs. All these are opportunities through which any disagreements can be addressed, not at Parliament. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the Secretary to the Treasury should address this matter if we have to make progress.

Madam Speaker, in a number of cases, lack of manpower is cited as the cause of irregularities. While this may be true for specialised functions, this need not be the same for routine tasks, such as record-keeping and recording of receipts and issues of stores. Controlling Officers can improve on record-keeping without external intervention and minimise incidences of payments having no supporting documents and lack of receipts and disposal details. 

Madam Speaker, the mover did make reference to foreign missions that were audited. Other than the recurring irregularities that the mover alluded to, your Committee observed that missions are having difficulties disposing of unserviceable stores. This is mainly attributed to the procedures currently in place of appointing a board of survey. While this works effectively well within Zambia, it is a challenge when it comes to missions abroad.

The Ministry of Finance and National Planning, clearly, does not have adequate resources to regularly appoint boards of survey for purposes of disposing of unserviceable stores in the foreign missions. Even when the items have been boarded, another challenge emerges, particularly, in missions in America, Europe and Asia, where equipment fast becomes obsolete and difficult, if not impossible to sell. Notwithstanding the above, your Committee wish to urge the Secretary to the Treasury to devise a quicker way of disposing of unserviceable stores in missions abroad.

Madam Speaker, still on missions abroad, your Committee noted that Zambia has many properties located in various countries. What is of concern to your Committee is the lack of documentation on ownership, such as certificates of title.

Madam, political administrations in countries are always changing. It is, therefore, very important that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs ensures that ownership of all properties in missions abroad is well documented. Otherwise, we run the risk of losing some of these properties. One good example is the properties in Maputo, Mozambique.

Madam Speaker, on the revenue side, the Auditor-General did report that the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) recorded deficits amounting to K584 billion on seven tax types namely:

(a) excise duties;

(b) import duties;

(c) Pay as You Earn;

(d) fuel levy;

(e) withholding tax;

(f) medical levy; and

(g) domestic value added tax (VAT).

Madam Speaker, surpluses amounting to K241.5 billion were recorded on three tax types namely:

(a) import VAT;

(b) company tax; and

(c) extraction royalty.

This meant that on the overall, the country experienced a deficit on collections as the surplus could not cover the deficit on the other tax types in the year under review.

Your Committee, in 2007, expressed worry on the increasing tax arrears. The situation does not seem to be getting any better. The arrears increased by 13.7 per cent in 2006 from the previous reported figure in 2005 of K2.6 trillion. The tax types with outstanding arrears are:

(a) company Tax;

(b) back duty;

(c) self-employed;

(d) Pay as You Earn;

(e) customs and excise duty; and

(f) domestic VAT

Madam Speaker, although improvements were recorded on company tax, self-employed and domestic VAT, the ZRA should be enabled both financially and politically to collect the arrears, as the bulk of the arrears relate to State-owned companies and public institutions.

Madam Speaker, let me end by joining the mover in thanking your office and that of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the valuable assistance and guidance you continue to render to your Committee.

I, further, wish to thank the Zambian High Commissioner to Tanzania, the management of ( Ministry of Finance and Economic Development) MOFED Limited and Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) for the warm reception and co-operation your Committee received whilst on tour of the Zambian Mission in Dar-es-Salaam.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I beg to second the Motion that this House do adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General, on the accounts for the Financial Year ended, 31st December, 2006.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Madam Speaker, I am sincerely thankful to you for according me this very rare opportunity to deliver my maiden speech to this august House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, before I get into the main thrust of my maiden speech, today, I seek your indulgence to thank my party, the Patriotic Front (PF), …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: … under the leadership of president Michael Sata, for adopting me to re-contest the Ndola Central Parliamentary seat following the nullification of the seat by the Supreme Court.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mushili: For the people of Ndola Central Constituency, I cannot find the words to better thank you for your unwavering support and the confidence that you continue to have in me, my vibrant party and the government in waiting …

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: … as your representatives in this august House.

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, my re-election by the people of Ndola Central is a victory for democracy in Zambia. It is a clear indication that the momentum is getting re-energised to eject the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: … which has failed to improve the lives of the people of Ndola for the last seventeen years.

Madam Speaker, nothing shall stand in the way of what the people of Zambia want today. The people of Zambia want change and that change will come.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: No matter how long it takes, change will come.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: The pace has been set by the people of Ndola and this is the situation everywhere in the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: If the people’s decision to usher in a Government of action had not been interfered with, our country would have seen accelerated development by now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mushili: The Patriotic Front …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member will deliver his speech without making any allegations.

You may continue.

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front is heading to forming a Government in 2011. For us, the fight for justice has not yet stopped.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili:  Let me now turn to the core issues in my constituency.

 Mr Lubinda: Very good!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, Ndola was the industrial hub of Zambia before the MMD Government took over power from the United National Independence Party (UNIP).

Madam, Ndola was a centre of job creation in the industrial sector. It is non-arguable that international companies invested heavily in our once great city of Ndola. There was sufficient industrial production.  It is heart-breaking that for seventeen years, the MMD Government has failed lamentably to come up with a formula to revive the city of Ndola.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, Ndola today has become a ghost town. The once operational factories in the industrial area are so rundown that a visitor to our city would think there was a civil war.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Bwekeshapo!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, if there is any city that has suffered the most under the myopic and hastily done privatisation programme of the MMD Government, it is Ndola.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: It is inconceivable that to the MMD Government privatisation means closing down industries which are a lifeline to the people. Privatisation does not mean closing down industries that are providing jobs to the people. It simply means promoting private ownership of enterprises as opposed to nationalisation which concentrates business in the hands of the Central Government.

Madam Speaker, this, therefore, means that during the process of promoting private ownership, a caring Government should firstly create an environment in which the local investors are given access to capital to take over the industries which are in the hands of the State. It then becomes the role of the local investors to identify foreign equity partners.

Ms Siliya: On a point of order!

Hon. Opposition Members: On a maiden speech?

Mr Mushili: This is the practice in South Africa and Africa as a whole today. In developed nations, responsible Governments are doing just that and they did the same when they embarked on privatisation. The MMD Government must explain to the people of Ndola why industries were closed without mechanisms to sustain them …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I rarely rise on points of…

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I think the hon. Member is right. May the hon. Member for Ndola Central continue.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, many people who lost their jobs in the key industries of Ndola have died due to the failure by the MMD Government to prepare them for survival in alternative income-generating ventures.

 Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: The people of Ndola are still haunted and still need a plausible answer to the industrial disaster.

Madam Speaker, the culture under the MMD of shelving strategic documents has worsened the sufferings of the people of Ndola. I have said before that Zambia is one the most over-studied countries in the world, but results from those studies are never utilised for industrial development among other national priorities.

Madam Speaker, in the interest of doing justice to the situation in my constituency, …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member for Roan, you know very well that it is not correct for you to shout from your seat. The hon. Member for Ndola Central is giving his maiden speech and, indeed, a maiden speech should not be provocative. We have to remember that. Are you aware that when you shout, the Chair gets what you are saying, including the very horrible negatives? It is very bad. If there is such a provision, let this be the very last time. The Chair expects to see a total transformation in the hon. Member for Roan so that you behave as honourably as you are expected in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member for Ndola Central continue.

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, in the interest of doing justice to the situation in my constituency, I cannot afford to end my debate without talking about the mining industry.

 Minerals are a diminishing resource. A serious Government ought to ensure that proceeds from the mineral resources are well-utilised to diversify the economy. Today, Zambia’s economy is still heavily dependent on copper and this has been the case since independence. It was, therefore, shocking that the MMD Government embarked on the sale of the mines under the pretext that mining companies were running at a loss.

Madam Speaker, I have researched to establish those losses and I have not found them anywhere in the books. I have also looked in the Yellow Books of this august House to trace the figures which indicate how much money the Government was spending to sustain the ailing mines, but I cannot trace them at all.

Madam Speaker, the question that remains is that: did the MMD Government embark on the sale of the mines for the benefit of Zambians or for the benefit of the pockets of those few people in power.

 Mr Kambwili: Shame!

Mr Mushili: The high profile corruption cases going on confirm that corruption has become the MMD policy of running this Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, the people of Ndola still want to know the final investigation on the cobalt scam, among the other mining sector corruption cases.
 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Where was the MMD when all these corrupt practices were going on? The people of Ndola demand clear answers to these questions.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: We shall not rest until the answers are secured.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, today, many small-scale miners have been struggling in an attempt to help themselves through self-employment and at the same time contribute to national development. It is saddening that all their efforts to be given preference in the running of the rundown mines land on the deaf ears of the MMD Government.

 Mr Kambwili: Shame!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, the people of Ndola are creative. They are innovative, but their innovations fall on the ears of a Government that has failed to deliver for the last seventeen years.

 Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, there are numerous problems facing the people of Ndola, but let me just turn to the following major development problems:

(a) rundown infrastructure such as road and inadequate service  delivery;
 
(b) economic decline and high unemployment levels;

(c) environmental degradation and deterioration;

(d) HIV/AIDS epidemic and other health and gender-related problems; and 
 
(e) high illiteracy levels. 

As a Member of Parliament who was popularly elected by the people in all the wards of Ndola Central Parliamentary Constituency, allow me to be ward-specific in bringing out the voices of the people in terms of what they want to see this Government do for them.

Madam Speaker, I have researched and I have outlined ward by ward what the people want from this listening Government. I have got Kansenshi, Twapia, Yengwe, Nkwazi, Kanini, and Chipulukusu wards. All these wards have common problems namely, the roads, rehabilitation, street naming and construction of health centres. These are the most prominent problems that the people of Ndola are facing.

Madam Speaker, in order to systematically co-ordinate all developmental projects, the well-organised people of Ndola demand that all development plans by the Central and Local Government be clearly identified so that community partnership could be realised for the development of Ndola. Accordingly, the stakeholders of Ndola came together and elected me as a Chairperson of the first ever Ndola Development Trust …

Hon. PF Members: Yes! Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: … a multi-sectoral non-profit making organisation established to operate under the principles of Public Private Partnerships (PPPs). PPPs everywhere in the world, including South Africa, have been created to complement Government efforts in all the sectors of national development. The MMD Government has equally realised that PPPs is unavoidable as underscored by the late President Mwanawasa in his foreword to the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP).

Ndola Development Trust has, therefore, been created in an attempt to create a well-organised forum to work with the Government of the day in the spirit of accelerating all development plans for the city of Ndola.

It is unfortunate that while PPPs is being encouraged by this MMD Government, some Government officials at provincial and local levels appear not to be well-versed in the concept of the PPPs.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear! It is true!

Mr Mushili: If the minister does not understand the concept of PPPs, how do we expect results in Ndola and the country as a whole to improve? PPPs are not meant to reinvent the wheel. They are meant to look at the already existing plans and put them in one document and present them to the Government partnerships. That is what it means.

Madam Speaker, a good example is where you identify plans of the Government in the road sector and put them on the private initiatives which are then presented to the Government with proposed partnerships. Then the Government and the local people begin to look for resources which cannot be raised through taxes and revenue measures of the Government.

The principle behind PPPs is as simple as that. Therefore, how can any minister stop such initiatives such as Ndola Development Trust just because the person elected as the chairperson is an Opposition Member of Parliament?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: Shame!

Mr Mushili: Where is it written in our laws that Opposition Members of Parliament are enemies of the Government?

Hon. PF Members: Tell them! Shame! Nowhere!

Mr Mushili: Madam Speaker, I am an established businessman and I was involved in community work for many years before I become a Member of Parliament.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: How can the position change today? I participate in many business associations and development partnerships as a Chairperson of my own companies which are legal persons in their own right.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Is it a crime to be a Member of Parliament on an Opposition ticket?
Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mushili: How on earth can any minister fight to block an organisation which stands for the following?

The mission statement of Ndola Development Trust is simple. Ndola Development Trust is a non-profit making development agency that works towards sustainable development in Ndola through multi-sectoral partnership, socio-economic infrastructure development, investment promotion and community capacity building. That is our mission statement. How can a reasonable Government oppose such an initiative?

It has got objectives such as:

(a) to increase the effectiveness of private sector development through capacity building;

(b) advocate for securing investment; and

(c) sharing youth information and facilitating meaningful social development co-operation with the public sector and civil society by the year 2012.

One other objective of the Ndola Development Trust is:

(d) to influence and accelerate formulation and implementation of public policies and development programmes through strategic partnerships with Central and Local Government within a framework that supports participation at all levels by mid-2012.

I implore the MMD Government to seriously change its approach if the people’s confidence is to be won.

The people of Ndola know who is right or wrong. If you hinder genuine development, they will not vote for you as they did not do it this year because they will treat you as their enemy.

Let me emphasise that any attempt by some ministers to block progressive ideas will not affect the initiators. We all seek to serve the people.

Madam Speaker, I pledge to continue fighting for the revival of Ndola and this fight will continue whether or not I am a Member of Parliament.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: My call to community service is one, with a lot sacrifices for my constituency.

Thank you and may God bless the House. Thank you for allowing me to rejoin the vibrant team of PF Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity. First of all, I wish to commend the mover of the Motion and also the seconder for the brilliant manner in which they have presented your report.

Madam Speaker, you are aware that each year, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning presents a budget in this House. There are a lot of funds there. And he is able to raise a lot of hope because of the commitment that the Government makes with the intention of improving the standard of living of our people. Unfortunately, twelve months down the line, the same commitments turn out to be sour grapes.

I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister who has just joined this House, to be conscious of the fact that any amount of money that is not accounted for and any misappropriation of funds by people who have been given the responsibility of accounting for the money, has the potential of undermining the Government of the day. That you should know. If there is any weakness, on the part of any controlling officer, of failing to account for money that is appropriated by this House to individual ministries, it has the potential of undermining the integrity of the Government of the day. You should be seen to provide sole leadership. That is my timely advice. Provide sole leadership.

In most cases, you may be aware that the people that commit these crimes are always in the forefront of pointing accusing fingers at the Government of the day saying that it has failed to deliver. You should know that. The best that you can do is to ensure that you address this culture of stealing.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kasongo: You have to do that because you have no choice. At the end of day, these are the same people who are going to team up and show you the exit, and yet they are the culprits. As ministers, you do not even handle the money. However, when it comes to defending the Government of the day, they are the first people to abandon you. You should be aware of that.

My timely advice is that you have to take action against the culprits.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: The moment you allow them to deepen their roots, I am afraid they will be the first people to team up against you as Government of the day and show you the exit. By the time you realise it, it will be too late.

Madam Speaker, I can confirm and express my opinion that this Government has done a lot as far as Bangweulu Constituency is concerned.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Speaker, there is a district hospital now under construction.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: There are many schools being rehabilitated.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: There are many clinics being constructed and so on, but if you are going to allow a situation where a small group of people fail to account for the money that we appropriate to ministries, I am afraid they will continue to undermine and lower your popularity in such a way that by the time you realise it is, in fact, the same people who were misappropriating funds, it will be too late.

In fact, if it was not for these financial weaknesses, Madam Speaker, the hospitals that you are now planning to construct in Kaputa and Chienge could have completed a long time ago. In other words, you are in arrears simply because most of the funds have not been accounted for. You will recall that last year on the 13th November, 2007, I informed this House that financial weaknesses starting from 2001 to 2005 amounted to K14.7 trillion. The same people you are keeping in your offices are the ones doing this. They are the ones who provide papers to you and tell you that you are not performers when they are the culprits in this situation. But, Madam Speaker, you allow them to get away with these weaknesses. Why is this so?
Madam Speaker, I would like to urge the ministers, especially the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to provide leadership. The culprits must be dealt with sternly so that a signal can be sent to would-be, for lack of a better word, criminals because this is criminal. Stealing public funds is criminal and it has the potential of undermining the economy of this country and a legitimate Government. You should be aware of that.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, stick to Parliamentary words. I am sure the report has all the appropriate Parliamentary words.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Kasongo: I am obliged, Madam Speaker.

 I am advising the elected Government to provide leadership because it is very painful, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, when you see a project that is supposed to be completed within a year take five or six years simply because a few individuals are busy pocketing the money. Those who are supposed to get the benefit of the project tend to suffer because some individuals or an individual has stolen the money. You have to get rid of this weakness once and for all.

Madam Speaker, today I do not want to be harsh to you hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because we have just welcomed you to this House. But if you are not going to take our timely advise as reflected in the Public Accounts Committee Report and the contributions to the debate that have taken place in this august House, I can assure you that I will have you for lunch, super and even dinner.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Come next year, I will have you for breakfast, lunch and dinner…

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! How does the hon. Member intend doing that?

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Madam Speaker, in short, all I can say is that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should, please, take timely action and stop this culture of stealing. You have to do that immediately …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kasongo: … however unpopular you may be …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You have continuously used the words ‘steal or stealing’. Can you use the words used in the report.

Mr Kasongo: Madam Speaker, this culture of misappropriating funds must be stopped once and for all. I have said that people are looking for development in form of schools, clinics and hospitals. This development can only be taken to the community if, for example, the same funds that we approve in this House are put to good use and that is your role hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

I remember giving the same free advice to the immediate past Minister of Finance and National Planning. I said that the beauty about Ministers of Finance and National Planning is that they are good at making assurances that action will be taken, but, by the end of the day, no action is taken. He tried his level best to put some systems in place and you have to review those systems and see whether they are yielding positive results or not. If, for example, you realise that those systems will be able to address some of these weaknesses, you have to support them. I even suggested that it was high time you created a monitoring committee in your ministry to monitor how funds are being spent on a daily basis and get expenditure reports or returns.

Madam Speaker, the moment that is done, you will be able to know who has taken the money from your office and who has not spent money appropriately. I would like to emphasise the same timely advice I gave to your immediate past Minister.

I thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, it is with great humility that I stand before you and all the hon. Members of this august House today to start making my humble contributions for national development.

Mr V. Mwale: You better be humble.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, for me this moment brings sorrowful and joyous reflections. The sorrowful reflections stem firstly from the loss of our dear Republican President, the late Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Indeed, Zambia has been robbed of a great son who committed his life to improving the lives of the people.

Mr V. Mwale: Kansi muziba mwenzecitila dala.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, the late President Mwanawasa’s commitment to fight high profile corruption cases distinguished him as a principled and courageous man. He will be remembered for this by many generations to come. May his soul rest in eternal peace.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: The second sorrowful reflection stems from the loss of our dear brother and friend in the Patriotic Front, the late Hon. Albert Chota Kanyanyamina, MP, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: … who was uncompromisingly representing the rural voice in this House. He was a fearless activist who passionately committed his life to working for the rural population not only in Kanchibiya Constituency, but Mpika District as a whole.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: I pray to God Almighty to let the soul of our dearly departed rest in eternal peace …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, it is gratifying that the people of Kanchibiya Constituency rose to elect me as their representative on the PF ticket. While the honour that has been bestowed on me brings joy, there are many challenges and great responsibilities that come with it. I will passionately commit my life as a Parliamentarian to speak and work for the often marginalised rural people.

Mr Speaker, I will be failing in my call to duty if I proceed with my debate without acknowledging the special privilege that my party, PF, granted me by adopting me to stand in the Kanchibiya Constituency by-elections.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

PF Member: Utuntu mwene.

Mr Mwango: I am particularly thankful to the PF leadership under our great President, Mr Michael Sata, …

PF Member: Hear, hear! Walasa!Wekeshapo!

Mr Mwango: … who has spent much of his life working for the people of Zambia.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: In the same vein, I thank all the hon. Members of Parliament …

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: … and ordinary members of our great party who helped me in my campaigns.
PF Member: Yes, not bakabolala balya.

Mr Mwango: My special thanks go to Hon. Mwimba Malama, …

Mr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: … Hon. Mwansa Kapeya and my good neighbours for being there for me during the campaign trail. It is my prayer and hope that we will continue to work together as one and speak as one Mpika voice. To the people of Kanchibiya Constituency, I have no special words to use in order to fully express my gratitude. I can only wish all the people of my constituency God’s blessings and I seek their faithful prayers so that I can deliver on their expectations. I pledge total commitment to my work as their representative in this House. May I now thank my beloved wife Linda, family friends and relatives for their support. I am currently enjoying a call to public service because of my friends, relatives and family. To my fellow PF Members of Parliament, let us have a unity of purpose in order to lead our great party to victory.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Let us unite for that common goal. The people of Zambia want us to work together. We need solidarity and co-existence. Today, I join you in this House to make my humble input to Parliament processes. I will depend on your advice in line with our party policy.

Mr Speaker, I will restrict my speech to the challenges of rural development in our country as they relate to Kanchibiya Constituency.

Madam Speaker, it is unacceptable that seventeen years after assuming power, the MMD Government has lamentably failed to deliver a rural development formula that works.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: It is common knowledge that the MMD came into power in 1991 on the platform of change, but that change has not translated into positive practical realities in changing the livelihoods of the rural people. Poverty levels in rural areas have continued to rise to alarming levels, due to the non-performance of the agricultural sector. This has arisen due to a short-sighted and poorly managed liberalisation of the agricultural sector in the 1990s.

Mr Speaker, let me put my debate into context by stating that the implantation of the Structural Adjustment Programme (SAP) measures which were accelerated after the change of Government in 1991, had adverse effects on all sectors and the majority of the people. The agricultural sector that preoccupies the vast majority of people in rural areas has suffered most.

Hon. Members were making noise.

Mr Mwango: The International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank prescriptions under SAP …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It appears most of the hon. Members on my left are consulting very loudly. As a result, it is impossible for me and many others in the House to follow the hon. Member’s speech. Please, be advised to consult quietly so that the hon. Member on the Floor can be heard.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mwango: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

… have been a Government pretext not to adequately invest in the sector. This situation has led to low agricultural productivity and has hampered people’s capacity to mainstream agriculture in their livelihoods. In addition to the Government’s failure, environmental conditions such as drought and floods have had devastating effects on the agricultural sector in Zambia. Women and girl children are the most affected groups of the population because the majority of farmers are females.

Mr Speaker, the Government’s withdrawal of subsidies in terms of input supply and crop marketing since the MMD took over power from UNIP, has totally destroyed agriculture. Farming inputs are now very expensive and markets are non-existent in rural areas. It is now the responsibility of individual farmers to find markets or buyers for their produce. Seasonal credit has also been politicised, which has prompted a culture of default. For example, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) is owed billions of kwachas.

Mr Speaker, this scenario has been compounded by the poor implementation of the Agriculture Sector Investment Programme (ASIP), which was designed to cushion the effects of SAP on the agricultural sector and revamp it. Both the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and the Zambian Government have recognised this non-performance.

 Decline in agricultural production has contributed to the widespread hunger situation in rural areas, resulting in heavy dependence on relief food. The cooperative movement used to play a major role in agricultural marketing, but it has completely collapsed. Small-scale farmers have been left at the mercy of unscrupulous traders who take advantage of their desperate situation and impose meagre prices for the farmers’ little produce. This reinforces and aggravates the levels of poverty in rural areas.

Mr Speaker, the Fertilizer Support Programme (FSP) under the MMD is an admission of guilt because the measure is not sustainable.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: This is evidenced by the inadequate supply of packs to cooperatives. How do you expect hundreds of farmers to share fifteen bags for instance? This is a joke and that is what the current Government specialises in.

PF Members: Shame!

Mr Mwango: Farmers do not need a temporary programme, they need a permanent solution to revamp agriculture. PF has the permanent solution.

PF Members: Hear, hear! Wekeshapo!

Mr Mwango: Fertiliser supply is not all there is to farming. There is need for a comprehensive scheme that offers all inputs and implements to farmers.

Mr Speaker, let me add, here, that the poor state of feeder roads in rural constituencies like mine has affected agricultural production in the sense that FRA, among other grain marketers, are not able to reach all the corners of Zambia. This has also affected the timely supply of inputs and implements to farmers. The rural communities are cut off. Most Government programmes have just benefited those who are along the line of rail.

Mr Speaker, let me also warn that the failure to invest heavily in the development of the road infrastructure will negatively affect development. The tourism sector in my constituency has suffered as a result of the poor state of the roads. Consequently, the tourism potential is not fully exploited. There is, therefore, an urgent need to improve transport and communication for tourism promotion in my area. Let me emphasise that once transport and communications are improved, there will be an increase in tourists coming to game reserves in my constituency to see some of the animal species that are extinct in other parts of the world.

Mr Speaker, let me, at this juncture, appeal to the Government to develop interventions that will provide the local people with alternative survival mechanisms when they are displaced by tour operators. My particular concern is for the people in Kabinga and Muwele of Chiundaponde who are displaced at will by investors who claim the land that is close to the game reserves. The people have lived in these settlements for generations. It is, therefore, only fair that sustainable alternatives are provided to them. May the Office of the Vice-President extend the resettlement scheme to my area.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, another sector that has failed to tick for the benefit of the rural people is health. Maternal and child mortality rates remain very high in this country. Rural women are still exposed to unsafe motherhood due to distant rural health centres, which are mostly run by mere classified daily employees. What worsens the situation is the often non-availability of medical supplies in these health centres.

Hon. PF Members: Shame, shame.

Mr Mwango: It is disheartening in the sense that while our people die needlessly due to the non-availability of drugs, we read in the newspapers how drugs worth billions of Kwacha expire here in Lusaka. The people of Zambia, and rural communities in particular, are tired and they demand change. The momentum that is gathering on the ground will not be stopped by any force because the people want a government that will deliver.

Mr Speaker, the HIV/AIDS pandemic has continued to ravage the rural population. The long distances that people living with HIV/AIDS are subjected to in order to receive Antiretroviral Therapy result in failure to comply with treatment. In order for ART to succeed, the whole health sector must become functional again. The rural people demand a health system that goes beyond rhetoric because matters of health are matters of life and death. We cannot extend politicking to health.

Mr Speaker, it has been said, and rightly so, that education is key to national development. This does not, however, appear to register with our Government, which has introduced basic education as a great achievement. How can we surely have a government that embraces basic education? Basic education and the Academic Production Unit (APU) are symptoms of a failed education sector in Zambia. We cannot allow this to continue.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members are really not listening.

Mr Mwango: The same failed basic schools are inadequate as seen by the number of rural children who drop out due to limited places in schools. The highly pyramidal education system in Zambia squeezes out of the system many eligible children. The rural people demand that Zambia should make education a right so that the Government can be taken to task for failure to deliver.

Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front believes that a motivated Civil Service is key to the full functioning of the Government’s programmes.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: I, therefore, call on the MMD Government to better the conditions of service for civil servants.

May I end my debate by putting on record the fact that the calls for change which have been echoed by all the people of Zambia are calls whose time has come. The time has come to start preparing for change of government so that the people’s demands can be met.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, after those beautiful maiden speeches, I feel grateful for having caught your eye.

 Let me start by commending your Public Accounts Committee and the mover and seconder of the Motion on this report. I commend the Committee for a number of reasons. Firstly, for the seriousness with which they attended to business that was brought before them as it was very clear that they spent a lot of time on it.  When most of us were back in our constituencies, hon. Members of this Committee were locked up in committee rooms here at Parliament and I would like to commend them for that. I would also like to commend them for being meticulous with their work. We followed, in the media, the kind of questions they were raising and the demand they were putting on controlling officers to give them plausible explanations on matters that hinge on public finance. I would also like to commend them for the well thought through report. They certainly did a good job of it.

Sir, secondly, let me congratulate the Auditor General of Zambia, Mrs Anna Chifungula, on her being conferred the 2008 ACCA Achievement Award for her outstanding contribution to the accounting profession in general and the auditing practice in particular. This is an award that she rightly deserves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, in the five years that she has been Auditor General, Mrs Chifungula has contributed immensely to the financial governance of this country, as was alluded to by the seconder of the Motion. Besides that, she has continued to maintain very good working relations with cooperating partners such as the Auditor General of Norway, who has also continued to render financial, material and professional support to her office. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the Norwegian Auditor General for continuing to render support to that very important institution of governance.

Sir, Mrs Chifungula, as Auditor General over the last five years, managed to train sixty-six accountants at the highest level of training in that field. That is no mean achievement at all. We know of many leaders of Government institutions and departments who wish to be the only ones who are qualified and consequently, suppress others. The so-called PhDs. Mrs Chifungula has demonstrated that she is not such a person. She is a true Zambian at heart and knows that she adds values, for every one person that she trains, to this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I am not a person who is uncharitable like some people I heard debating yesterday. When I commend this woman, it is not whether she is MMD or not, but because she is a Zambian. Had all MMD people been like her, I am sure we would have had no problems in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, Mrs Chifungula, as we have read in the report, has also revolutionalised the concept of auditing in this country from the one that was perceived as being a practice of fault finding to one of …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … solution seeking. It is stated on page 2 of your Committee’s report, for the sake of my colleagues who might not have had the time to look at it, that:

“In the course of preparing the Report, draft paragraphs were sent to controlling officers of the organisations’ parent ministries and chief executives for comments and confirmation of correctness of the facts presented. Where the comments were received and varied materially with the facts presented, the relevant items were amended appropriately.”

It is only a group of people who are truly professional and truly agreed with the principles of auditing who do such things. Quite often, auditors will leave without even having an exit meeting, but Mrs Chifungula, as Auditor-General, has encouraged that her auditors conduct such important exit meetings. This is to be commended.

Sir, for her to have managed to audit forty ministries, provinces and other spending agencies in one year is a commendable performance, and I would like to commend her and all the other auditors. I would like to urge her to continue to fulfill her mandate as Auditor-General. At that, I would like to urge the Government to continue providing support to the Auditor-General’s Office.

Sir, let me now move to some of the observations and recommendations of your Committee. Your Committee recommend that there is need for strengthening of oversight institutions. They put it very well in their report. Again, for the sake of my friends for whom reading is a taboo, let me quote the report at page 3:
 
 Observations and Recommendations

“Your Committee note the submissions and advice from the Secretary to Treasury that there is more to be gained by strengthening oversight institutions such as the Office of the Auditor-General. The cumulative savings over time will be much higher than the money that can be spent to improve operations of the office.”

How else will they put it besides this? They have put it so very clearly that every Kwacha and effort that you put in strengthening institutions of oversight such as the Auditor-General is nothing but an investment from which you shall benefit.

I would like to urge my colleagues in Government, particularly the Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, Mr Sichilima, if he cares to know what he is employed for, to ensure that they abide by such important recommendations rather than making running commentaries as I debate.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Sir, I rise on a very serious point of order. According to your guidance I have been seated quietly listening to what Hon. Lubinda is saying. However, he attacks this office which he knows has worked with this able Government to ensure that the Office of the Auditor-General is in all provincial centres. Therefore, is he in order to attack the hon. Minister who is seated so quietly here and who has read that report and is a senior minister for that matter? Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think we should move on.

Unfortunately, the Chair saw the senior minister make a bit of noise. However, I urge the hon. Member for Kabwata not to be diverted by remarks from those seated because since you mentioned his name, he had to rise on a point of order. Just concentrate on the ideas you want to put forward.

Mr Lubinda: I am very grateful, Sir. Comedy is the spice of life and must be tolerated.

Sir, I was talking about strengthening institutions of oversight, but how do we do that? The recommendations were very well-elucidated by your Committee. Some of them relate to the quality, quantity and timeliness of releases of resources to the Office of the Auditor-General. That office is extremely busy and ought to start operating from January. To wait until June for the release of financial support, is to set a trap for them to fail. 
I, therefore, would  like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Situmbeko, to ensure that releases to the Office of the Auditor-General are done in a timely manner.

Besides that, I would like to urge the Government to ensure that they do not engage in rhetoric by saying we have done this and that. Let them demonstrate real political will by walking the talk. Enough of talking, my dear brothers and sisters, the time has come for us to walk the talk. Let us provide the political will to open up ministries and spending agencies to officers of the Auditor-General so that they may come and audit and advise you on how to improve your financial management systems. They do not come there as police officers and have no powers to prosecute. They simply come to advise you. After they have done that, they come to this august House, which was elected by the Zambian people, and ask a Committee of this important House to make further recommendations to you. It is not a matter of Bikkiloni and Diffikoti. This is a serious matter.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, one way of strengthening institutions of oversight is by respecting financial guidelines and management principles. This is also a matter that I spoke about yesterday, but I will leave it for now.

One matter that the Committee recommended very well on was the issue of internal controls. Hon. Chairperson of the Committee and your members I salute you, again, because the five recommendations that you made on how to maintain internal controls are critical. Even professors at the university, like the one who invited me to join him when I retire from politics, will agree that the recommendations by your Committee are critical. I would also like to urge the Government to take heed of those internal controls.

Sir, utilising resources that are meant for poverty reduction or utilising capital funds to meet RDCs is not synonymous with maintaining internal financial controls. It is actually the opposite and your Committee recommended that.

Sir, at page 6, your Committee made the following recommendation:

“Controlling Officers should be discouraged from utilising funds from other votes to meet RDCs.”

Even when they bring supplementary expenditure, this recommendation applies. Please, do not get money meant for rehabilitating Evelyn Hone College to pay National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR) debt. The Committee has said, ‘no’ to it. It is saying that on behalf of the twelve million people out there, therefore, please, take heed. It is not a playing matter. We are talking about the lives of the people who brought us to this House and not all of those people can speak.

 Sir, you appointed the hon. Members of that Committee to speak on behalf of this House as well as the twelve million people out there. Therefore, when they present a report like this, please, let it not gather dust because demeaning that Committee is demeaning the Republic of Zambia, the people that all of us here claim to represent.

Sir, spending K3 billion meant for medical equipment in the Budget for 2008 on paying salaries is not fair. That is criminal. The Criminal Code of Conduct is an Act of this Parliament.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, let me move away from that and remind this House that it is not only conventions or laws of this House, but the demands of international practice and agreements.

In September of this year, there was a high level forum on aid effectiveness held in Accra, Ghana, which was also referred to as the Accra Agenda for Action. The agenda for action calls on governments to strengthen their capacity to lead and manage development. What does that mean? That cannot be done unless a government abides by the recommendations of your Committee on enhancing their internal controls; not only by writing them as guidelines, but also abiding by the guidelines that you agreed to.

The second issue that I would like to refer to also emanates from the triple A, the Accra Agenda for Action, which states that developing countries such as Zambia will work more closely with parliaments than local authorities in preparing, implementing and monitoring national development policies and plans. What that means, therefore, is that the Committee on Public Accounts must be facilitated not only to read the report of the Auditor-General, but to also have an opportunity to go and visit some of the sites where projects are implemented so that they can relate to the story that is being written to them by the Auditor-General. That way, you can really say Parliament is carrying out its oversight role. To subject them only to reading what the Auditor-General has written, is not good enough. I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that as he starts considering the budget allocations for 2009, he ought to increase the allocation to the Committee on Public Accounts to facilitate their oversight function. They are the ones who play the very significant role of overseeing the Government’s financial management.

Sir, a lot of people have discussed the value of direct budget support. As I speak about this, I wish to urge the donor community that to put money in direct budget support when your budget or national accounting system is nothing but shambles, is to fail to account for taxpayers’ money. I, therefore, urge the donor community to ensure that they finance some of the programmes that seem to be experiencing problems in this Government such as IFMIS which has been referred to by the mover or seconder of the Motion. It should not take us ten years to implement the IFMIS. If it is a question of hardware, can the donor community, please, before they continue pouring money into a bottomless pit, ensure that they support this Government to prepare the necessary hardware to ensure that the IFMIS is working and that every one of our provinces is linked to the national management and information system. That way, it will be easy for anyone of us, by the stroke of a key on a computer, to see how much money has been released against that which was allocated by Parliament.

Sir, I would like to end by making reference to one matter that the Auditor-General stated when she was addressing a meeting of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) in Namibia not long ago. She was widely cowered in Zambia when she said that there was need to have legal reform in Zambia and other SADC countries to allow the Auditor-General’s Office to perform not only financial audits, but performance forensic audits. The law only provides for them to look at books of accounts. That is not enough. Please, come up with mechanisms to provide for the Auditor-General’s Office to come to your ministries to visit your projects and see whether there is value for money in those projects. Very often, they stand here and tell us K2 billion was spent on the road, but nobody goes to see whether the K2 billion actually went onto that road.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: If the Auditor-General is not empowered to do that, then we shall continue to be told whatever stories they want to tell the people of Zambia. We shall continue to have a repeat of the Kalabo-Mongu Road. Please, empower the Auditor-General to conduct forensic audits. For your information, my dear friends, there are some Zambians who have recently returned from training as forensic auditors and so we have the skills. There are some who shall be coming back soon with even better qualifications in forensic auditing. If you have the skills, utilise them. All that is required is political will on that side. We are not just exchanging uncharitable words, particularly when people are not in the House. I was not in the House yesterday when some gentlemen …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … was using uncharitable words.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Do not take us backwards. Make your point.

May you continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Sir.

Sir, let me say, finally, that another institution that needs to be empowered as an oversight institution is the media. To the media, I want to say, “well done.” This year, they showed a lot of interest in meetings of the Public Accounts Committee…

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and they reported on how articulate our Committee was. That is the only way that we, as Parliament, can account to the people out there. If the media was to black us out, it would be very difficult for us to prove that we come to this House to deliberate on matters of concern to the 12 million Zambians. I, therefore, want to encourage them to continue to pay interest in matters that this Parliament is engaged in because they are the only conduit we can use to inform our people. They are the only ones we can use to ensure that we expose those who are dipping their long hands in public funds and those who are jeering at me when I say the media have done a good job. It is those who know that their fingers are very long. We want them cut.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, firstly, I want to thank the Committee for knocking out such a good report.

Interruptions

Mr Mpombo: The report contains a lot of wise counsel which we, as Government, has taken note of.

I want to touch on a number of issues. There have been a lot of trigger happy speeches this afternoon.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: I want to begin with the submission made by Hon. Mushili who was running fast and losing facts. I want to describe his speech as a futile piece of political theatre.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Hon. Mushili, Sir, joined the MMD until 2006. He was an ardent MMD member until his bid for adoption was rejected. That is when he moved over to …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mpombo: Therefore, he cannot run away from all the things that he complained about…

Mr Mushili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mushili: Sir, I rise on a very serious point of order arising from a careless and irresponsible statement from a very senior member of…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! May the hon. Member for Ndola just raise the point of order. Do not deviate from the issue. Otherwise, we will not get anywhere.

May you continue, please.

Mr Mushili: I wish to raise a point of order on a very senior hon. Minister in Government. Is he in order to talk about history instead …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mushili: … of concentrating on matters pertaining to accounts? The Chair, please, rule …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mushili: That is the point of order. Will the Chair rule?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, make your point of order.

May you continue, please.

Interruptions

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister desist from attacking me. Is it in order for him to attack me instead of debating an issue which concerns the Public Accounts, where they are already guilty?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Defence can continue, but take into account the point of order.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: History is important.

Hon. Government Member: Very important.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, I am grateful that the report recognises the important role that this Government plays in ensuring that the Office of the Attorney-General works freely.

Hon. Government Member: Auditor-General.

Mr Mpombo: Yes, the Auditor-General. The report has said that they have been strengthened in terms of human resource deployment.

Transport and office accommodation are also some of the achievements which show the vivid manifestation of this Government’s commitment to the Office of the Auditor-General.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: The glowing tribute that has been paid to the Auditor-General is also a reflection of this Government’s investment because we do not interfere in any way with their work. The Auditor-General is able to speak her mind. It shows that we are on track in terms of strengthening this particular office.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: It is important to acknowledge that fact.

Mr Speaker, the amount of support that we get from our cooperating partners in supporting the work of the Auditor-General is another serious indication of the trust that has accrued with our cooperating partners.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: They know that they are not pouring money into a dry hole, but into ensuring that the checks and balance in our system are effective. I want to assure the House that we will not depart from that path.

Mr Speaker, one of the debaters was actually very right when he said that there was an orgy of economic destruction in the Second Republic.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, on privatisation, I want to say that the people that are condemning the privatisation exercise and placing the blame on this Government are being unfair because the major architects of the privatisation exercise are leaders in the opposition parties today.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Some were Ministers without Portfolio. Therefore, they cannot escape …

Mr Kambwili: You are insulting!

Mr Mpombo: … the economic destruction that the country experienced. We have a lot of information on that.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, there was a lot of economic indiscipline during that period which was unearthed by the Office of the Auditor-General.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised!

Mr Lubinda: I am very grateful, Sir.

 The Order Paper is what determines the order of business. Currently, we are debating a very important Report of the Public Accounts Committee. Is that man in order to talk about privatisation …

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: … which is not covered in this report? It is …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I would like you to hear me. The report that is before your House does not make reference to privatisation. Is he in order, therefore, to belabour the matter and bore us and waste taxpayers’ money talking about privatisation?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, we will be wasting time on some of these things. I do recall that somebody made reference to the issue of privatisation.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, listen and let him express his opinion. Can you continue hon. Minister.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Thank you ,Mr Speaker, for your protection.

I was talking about the economic plunder in the Second Republic as far as privatisation was concerned.

Mr Speaker, there was a lot of economic malaise during that period.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: The Auditor –General, and not I, told the nation that some irresponsible ministers had the audacity to get Government money and put it into a personal account to accrue some interest and then pocket it.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: These are some of the issues that have contributed to the economic melt-down.

As far as privatisation is concerned, as the Government, we believe that it was not done properly. It was a big cock up …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mpombo: … because it was done without care. Had care been taken, Ndola would not be in the problems it is today.  In Ndola, it was a question of liberalisation. When you liberalised the economy, it became too wide and companies like DUNLOP could not compete against cheap imports and, thus, folded up. Therefore, it was those who were in leadership at that time who should be held accountable. They must explain.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: In the previous Auditor-General’s Report, you are going to read about the Merzaf scandal which was a big dent and a colossal collateral damage on the economy.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: You see, when you are in leadership, you must look in the rear view mirror and see what you did in the past. You cannot talk about the present without taking into account the history of your performance. It is really important to look at those who contributed terribly to the economic difficulties that we have today.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

When you are debating, you want others to keep quiet and listen to you. However, you do not want to give the same opportunity to the other person. That is the irony.

Hon. Minister you may continue.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for your protection. It is important that people refrain from rough politics and concentrate on important issues.

Interruptions

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, what we are saying, as the Government, is that we are determined to ensure that what we promised is done.

On the question of agriculture, how do I explain the situation?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Just by way of advice, the hon. Minister can move on because the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning also has to say something. You may continue.

Mr Mpombo: I, therefore, want to conclude …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mpombo: …by saying that it can be described as shattering irrationality for anybody to claim that this Government is not paying due attention to agriculture because the Agriculture Support Programme has been put in place to help our viable, but vulnerable farmers. The Government will continue to deliver.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the Public Accounts Committee for producing a well prepared report on the Auditor-General’s Report for the accounts ended December, 2006.

 In particular, I would like to underscore some of the points that have been dealt with during this debate. In the opinion of the mover of the Motion, a significant amount of progress has been seen in terms of the financial management of the Government’s financial resources. I think that point was made very clearly. In spite of other set backs, he stated, clearly, that there has been a significant amount of progress.

Sir, the Auditor-General’s report for the financial year ended 31st December, 2006, expresses the opinion of the Auditor-General and the statement fairly reports the activity of the Government in accordance with the Public Finance Act and its financial regulations. I, too, join other hon. Members of Parliament in commending the work of the Auditor-General. This is after the strong support that was given to that office by the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: The Government will continue to render maximum support to the Office of the Auditor-General so that she continues to do excellent work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, my ministry will ensure that all the Committee’s observations and recommendation are acted upon accordingly and within Government capabilities.

I wish to inform the hon. Members, through you, that my ministry has taken a number of steps to improve Government financial management. Some of the measures taken are as follows:

(a) having quarterly consultative meetings on Public Finance Management with controlling officers and heads of accounting units;

(b) making follow-up verifications on all matters outstanding in the Public Accounts Reports; and

(c) producing Action Taken Reports in form of Treasury Minutes in response to the Public Accounts Committee Reports within 60 days of the adoption of the reports by this august House;

Mr Speaker, once the Integrated Financial Management Information System is fully implemented, there will be a major improvement in the management of public resources.

On the issue of unserviceable stores in the missions abroad, my ministry will ensure that a cost-effective and efficient method is adopted as soon as possible. My ministry shall continue to monitor and build capacity of all officers engaged in revenue collection. Further, the Government will continue to improve the infrastructure in revenue collecting points.

Sir, in the continuing endeavour to enhance transparency and accountability, my ministry presented the Accountants Bill and the Public Procurement Bill which this august House has since approved. These will further improve the management of public funds.

Mr Speaker, the Government will ensure that an officer who misappropriates public funds is dealt with in accordance with the rules and regulations applicable in the Public Service. I wish to confirm that a number of officers who have misappropriated public funds have been disciplined and some of them are appearing before the courts.

I, further, wish to assure this august House that the Office of the Auditor-General will be fully supported, as I indicated earlier on, as it is a major player in the management of public resources.

Sir, with these measures that I have just outlined, it is my belief that financial management in the country will improve further beyond the strong improvement already acknowledged in the report that we have received today.

Mr Speaker, lastly, let me address one important point which my brother, Hon. Lubinda, referred to. This was that it is a mistake for the donor community to give resources to the budget of this country. According to his words, if I understood properly, it is putting money in a bottomless pit.

Sir, to get donors to contribute financial resources directly to the Budget of the Republic of Zambia means the country has gone through a very strict evaluation process. There are, in fact, not many countries on the African continent which receive budgetary support. What normally happens is that before the cooperating partners agree that they are going to provide money directly to the Budget, they must be satisfied that the public financial management has reached a certain level of accessibility.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, without that, they will not provide that support and, indeed, if they see that it is deteriorating, they will withdraw the support. In the case of Zambia, this support has been increasing. This means that donor confidence in the way we are managing public finances is improving.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Mr Speaker, let me commend the hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu, Hon. Kasongo, and the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, Hon. Lubinda, for their articulate debate on this Report. They really debated issues extremely well. Let me also thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Ndola Central, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya and the hon. Minister of Defence for their robust contributions. I also want to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for his debate on the issues.

Mr Speaker, therefore, with these few remarks, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Quality.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ASSURANCES

(Debate resumed)

The Minister of Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this golden opportunity to add my voice to the good report that was presented to this august House. Unfortunately, the Report did cover some latter parts of 1986 and I think to the current Government, those assurances could be regarded as Ghost Government Assurances. We want assurances that pertain to the New Deal Govenrment.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament who belong to the Opposition should know that a Member of Parliament is supposed to be influential in bargaining and negotiating. You must check certain Government actions that seem to you, the Opposition, or to the country, as excessive. That is your responsibility. However, you must not debate to kill yourself.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: You should never be tempted to debate to degrade yourself.

Hon. Member: Tell them!

Mr Munkombwe:  Your debates should be attractive enough for the Government’s attention. I am glad that most hon. Members of the Opposition, who come from my province, are able to mix with the Government and convince them that certain developments are supposed to take place in their areas.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Muntanga, yesterday, spoke about roads in Southern Province. I think that we should be appreciative that the chronic Choma/Namwala Road, which I spoke about some twenty-five years ago, is now being worked on.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Now there is progress. Hon. Hachipuka, the hon. Member for Choma, can confirm that.

The Nico/Monze Road is being worked on after the insistence on negotiation of some hon. Members of Parliament who come from Namwala and Bweengwa. There is progress now and the road is being worked on. That is what I mean by being influential. In politics, one must learn to be influential. I was influential with Mr Nkumbula, Dr Kaunda, Dr Chiluba, and, indeed, my late dear brother, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa. If you cannot be influential in politics, get out. You repulse people.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: You are going to have people …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Withdraw the words, ‘get out’.

Mr Munkombwe: I am sorry, Sir. I withdraw them.

You cannot compete with Governments. Unfortunately, there is cheap thinking in this country. As long as somebody goes into Government and occupies a Government position, there is a belief that one is a sellout. That is a wrong conception. I am still the Daniel Munkombwe I was some twenty years ago. For anyone to align me with failure, that somebody does not understand me.

Mr Mubika: Hakainde.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, we have a very energetic hon. Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe. He is …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I was enjoying the debate by the senior hon. Member of this House and Deputy Minister for Southern Province. 
However, is that other hon. Deputy Minister, who is only learning how to speak English because he has managed to get to this House and God has been so kind to him, in order to start mentioning Hakainde Hichilema, who is not in this House and who is so competent in his own endeavours that he does not deserve to be associated with the detrimental references to Hon. Munkombwe? Is that hon. Deputy Minister in order to debate from the seat and mention Hakainde Hichilema, the Obama of Zambia.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

This is why the Chair advises hon. Members that when one is debating, we should stop making remarks while seated because, indeed, I heard that remark. However, sometimes I want to let things pass so that we can make progress. Now there you are somebody got it and obviously the answer is that he is not in order.

Can the hon. Member continue

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, yes, the progress is slow as regards the Bottom Road. As minister for that province, I am not satisfied, but Hon. Muyanda can testify that the road has being worked on. We are now negotiating for the strip from a certain turn-off up to Chief Sinazongwe’s Palace. The other roads which are being worked on are the Batoka/Maamba, the Kaloma/Kabanga and the Zimba/Livingstone roads. We also have six graders and five tippers and a bull dozer. Again, instead of them spreading over, we only have six. They are yet to decide among the eleven districts. Therefore, we decided in secret consultations with my able Members of Parliament that they should start that way and move this way. The year is ending and we will carry on since we are not dying tomorrow.

Therefore, I want o say that, at least, this Government has tried and will continue trying. Development is never an ending process, but we should be able to recognise the fact that something is being done.

Mr Speaker, even hon. Opposition Members of Parliament were making unachievable promises. There were some people who were being assured – I am referring to this same report – that their take-home salaries would be about K5 million. Some people were misled to the extent where this country was going to be gripped into chaos by electing a person with an unbalanced mind.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 
I can understand the feelings of the Deputy Minister, but I get the feeling that the point the hon. Minister wanted to make has been made. If there is any other point reaming, you should complete it because I would like the mover to wind up the Motion. Can you continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, you can have a picture frame with a human symbol and paint it into a human being and, maybe, market it or sell to it to the people, but Zambians know that at some stage they will stop that. This Government is a human Government and those on the opposite side with the hope that one day they will come here should be sober and courteous in their approach.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the mover wind up debate.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you, once again, for giving me this opportunity to wind up the Motion. I want to thank the seconder, Hon. Katuka, for ably seconding this Motion. I also want to thank Honourables Muntanga, Mooya and the Hon. Ministers, Mulongoti, Siliya, Namulambe and Munkombwe for their passion in debating this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1942 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 28th November, 2008.
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