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Debates- Friday, 28th November, 2008
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
Friday, 28th November, 2008
The House met at 0900 hours
[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_________
MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS
RELEASE OF THE 2008 CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND (CDF)
The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for allowing me to give a ministerial statement on the disbursement of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Through this ministerial statement, I wish to inform the nation on the disbursement of CDF for 2008.
Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, released K44 billion to my ministry for 111 constituencies out of the 150 constituencies.
Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to apologise to the hon. Members of Parliament for the delay in disbursing the funds due to the fact that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning had important assignments related to the Presidential election on 30th October, 2008 which consumed many billions of kwacha.
In this vein, let me congratulate His Excellency, the President, Rupiah Banda, on the victory and His Honour the Vice-President of Zambia, Hon. George Kunda, SC, on his deserved appointment as Republican Vice-President. I promise the President my full support in serving the Zambian people as part of the new Cabinet.
Madam Speaker, the K44.4 billion released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will not cater for all the 150 constituencies, as it is only enough for 111 constituencies, leaving thirty-nine constituencies.
Madam Speaker, the thirty-nine constituencies that have not been funded, will require K15.6 billion which the Government has not yet released. As per guidelines on the management and utilisation of CDF given to all hon. Members of Parliament and issued by the Government through my ministry, it is a requirement that public funds are properly utilised and accounted for. This means that councils which are custodians of these funds are required to prepare progress reports on the usage of the Constituency Development Fund before another allocation for the following year can be allocated to any constituency.
Madam Speaker, the thirty-nine constituencies have not been funded due to the failure by the councils to submit their expenditure returns for the utilisation of the Constituency Development Fund for 2007. The councils did not submit their expenditure returns at the time the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, including my ministry, directed them to do so.
Madam Speaker, my ministry is saddened by the failure by the management of the councils to submit reports on the use of CDF which puts pressure on hon. Members of Parliament who would like to see developmental projects in their constituencies take off.
However, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to inform this august House that so far, the management of CDF for 2007 has improved compared to the previous years when there was a lot of abuse and misapplication of the funds by some council management and councillors in some constituencies. I would like to inform this august House that we shall continue monitoring the use of CDF.
Madam Speaker, the failure by councils to submit returns cannot be attributed to the hon. Members of Parliament. In almost all the constituencies where there has been failure to submit returns, the hon. Members of Parliament were not present during the CDF committee sittings and full council meetings. I would like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to attend council meetings so that they can be involved in the disbursement. I, therefore, wish to take this opportunity to commend hon. Members of Parliament who have tirelessly ensured that CDF for their constituencies was properly managed and channeled to viable projects which contributed to poverty reduction in their constituencies. I wish to further implore hon. Members of Parliament and all stakeholders to use the CDF for 2008 on tangible projects which will be beneficial to the communities in our country.
Madam Speaker, let me mention that incidences of improper usage of CDF were reported to the Anti-Corruption Commission for investigation and were also reported to the police. As a result of these investigations and reports, some councillors and council officials involved in the malpractices have been arrested and others imprisoned like the case is in Mazabuka where a councillor has been imprisoned for twelve months and suspended for nine months.
In view of the above, I have directed all councils that no CDF meetings shall be held without the knowledge of the hon. Members of Parliament.
Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: Hon. Members of Parliament will decide the dates of CDF sittings so that they can contribute to the selection of the projects proposed by the Constituency Development Committees (CDC).
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: After all, during the campaign, it is the Members of Parliament who bear the accusations from their political opponents on the use of CDF in the constituency. It is therefore, only proper that they are involved in the decisions on the utilisation of the funds.
Madam Speaker, if the hon. Members of Parliament decide on a date, that date will not be changed and the CDC will proceed with the disbursement of CDF in the absence of Members of Parliament. The above decision will make the hon. Members of Parliament not to unnecessarily delay disbursements of CDF.
Secondly, many hon. Members of Parliament have been asking the ministry about the disbursement of the 2008 CDF, whether the funds have been sent to their constituencies and in which accounts. In order to lessen pressure on the hon. Members of Parliament on the release of funds, I have written to all hon. Members of Parliament informing them the account numbers the funds have been transferred to. I am sure the letters are already in their pigeon holes.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: The same accounts will be used for future disbursement, and we have asked hon. Members of Parliament to let us know if the accounts are not the ones that they are aware about.
Madam Speaker, there have been petitions by hon. Members of Parliament on the CDF allocation of 10 per cent.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: For example, Lusaka District, from the current disbursement, will receive K208 million for monitoring, but on the ground, it is not possible for the Lusaka City Council to use such a big amount of money in the constituencies.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the administrative cost of 10 per cent, with the current CDF allocation of K40 million, is too much to be deducted from CDF.
I have, therefore, decided that only K20 million per constituency will be retained by the council for administrative costs.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the ministry intends to have hon. Members of Parliament consulted in order to come up with new guidelines that will be acceptable to stakeholders and hon. Members of Parliament.
Madam Speaker, there has also been complaints from some hon. Members of Parliament that the District Commissioners, through their District Development Co-ordinating Committees (DDCC), have been making changes to decisions of the CDF committees and full councils on the disbursement of CDF and projects. In order to lessen the misunderstanding of the responsibility of DDCC, I would like to inform the hon. Members of Parliament that the simple procedure in releasing the CDF to the beneficiaries is as follows:
(i) the CDF committee receives application from stakeholders and or general public through Area Development Committees (ADC) or Residents Development Committees (RDC);
(ii) the applications are tabled before the CDF committee and after deliberations, the committee lists the proposed names of beneficiaries which are submitted to the relevant council;
(iii) the council committee will table the CDF committee proposed beneficiaries before the full council for approval;
(iv) after approval by the full council, the list of beneficiaries is submitted to the office of the District Commissioner for tabling before the DDCC;
(v) the functions of the DDCC in respect of CDF list of beneficiaries is to compare the projects for funding by the CDF for a particular project. If that project is funded by another Government wing, the council and CDF committee are supposed to be informed about the duplication; and
(vi) for example, if the CDF committee approved funds for a clinic and it is discovered, through the DDCC, that the same clinic has been funded by the Ministry of Health, the CDF committee funding to that project will not be ratified by the DDCC. That is the simple procedure that we are supposed to follow. The DDCC will advise the council of the funding from another Government wing.
Madam Speaker: Order!
Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The DDCC will advise the council on the funding from another Government wing and since the town clerks and council secretaries are members of DDCCs, they will advise the CDF committee, accordingly, for the CDF committee to choose another project.
From the above, Madam Speaker, it is clear that DDCC has no powers to adjust funds for projects not recommended by the CDF committee or approved by the full council.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: The DDCCs role in the disbursement of CDF is to advise on double funding to the councils.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: In view of this, Madam Speaker, councils have also been directed to code all the projects funded from the CDF so that it is easier for all stakeholders to identify and differentiate the various projects in the districts and constituencies with regard to where the funding for that particular project came from. This arrangement is meant to avoid a situation where one project is associated to so many funding institutions, especially for schools and health centres.
Madam Speaker, I hope my statement has clarified the issues of CDF disbursement and that of some District Commissioners being accused by hon. Members of Parliament of changing the decision of the CDF committees and full councils on disbursements.
Madam Speaker, from now onwards, hon. Members of Parliament should use this funding which is one of the visible sources of funding and nearer to the electorate in most constituencies and that Members of Parliament can be attributed to during their tenure of office to show real constituency development.
Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament will do well if they consider stopping funding projects piecemeal. Let us implement visible projects so that we can come back to Parliament after the 2011 Presidential Elections.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, let me conclude this statement by appealing to hon. Members of Parliament to ensure that their constituencies submit the returns as quickly as possible to help my ministry impel management of councils to submit returns approved by the full councils to avoid the current situation where we have thirty-nine constituencies not receiving the K400 million CDF for 2008 which will only be released if we can have the returns before the end of December. Although we know that the money is committed, let us not take that for granted.
Madam Speaker, once again, I would like to thank you for giving our ministry the opportunity to inform the hon. Members of Parliament, and through the National Assembly Radio facility, the nation, on issues connected to CDF and its use.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members are now free to ask …
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.
Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister for that very good ministerial statement. At the moment, councils, through their departments of planning, are using DANIDA to give boreholes to many communities that apply, but the requirement is that the communities must pay K1.5 million for the water point to be sunk. However, the people in the villages cannot afford this. Would it not be helpful if part of the CDF was used to support these projects?
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do you need answers from the hon. Minister or you all have answers?
Interjections
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: This side of the House (pointing to the left side of the House) is overqualified.
Laughter
Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would also like to thank our National Chairman of the Ruling Party for the supplementary question.
Madam Speaker, CDF is given to the constituencies. I must say this because many hon. Members of Parliament in this House were not there when we started discussing the issue of CDF. I am sure Hon. Hachipuka will agree with me on this. The whole purpose was to give some financial power to the hon. Member of Parliament so that certain projects in the constituencies are implemented for him to win another election.
Laughter
Mr Tetamashimba: Some hon. Members of Parliament were claiming that there were no major projects on development in their constituencies. Surely, the problem, maybe, has been that the guidelines regarding the use of the money which were brought on the Floor of the House by hon. Members of Parliament were drawn without much consultation with the hon. Members of Parliament. Next year, we shall appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament to help draw the guidelines.
My answer to the question from my boss in the party is that if the people in the constituency want water, and sinking a borehole is going to cost more than K2 million, surely, is it wrong for people to contribute K1.5 million for someone to put up a well for K10 million? I do not see anything wrong if it is accepted by the constituency that that is what they need, because that is development.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for presenting a good statement.
Madam, I would like to find out whether he is considering increasing the CDF next year, and by how much?
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, money matters are the domain of my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. It is up to him to consider raising the CDF amount from K400 million if he feels he has raised enough revenue.
I thank you, Madam.
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) says that when you pay, it will show. When the United Party for National Development (UPND) is in governance through the back door, it shows.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, my question …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, the presumption that all the constituencies are homogeneous is not apt. There are constituencies such as Malole which are both a constituency and a district. Others are Siavonga, Namwala, Kazungula and Kasempa which are given exactly the same amount of CDF as …
Hon. MMD Members: Kabwata!
Major Chizhyuka: … a constituency with three or four wards. Is there any intention to vary the amount of CDF in such a manner that it relates to the size of the constituencies.
Hon. Member: Like Kaputa.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Kaputa is not a one constituency district.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Chizhyuka for that supplementary question.
I do agree that in my province, for example, Hon. Pande is the most affected since Kasempa Constituency is the biggest constituency. When the two of us get the same amount of CDF per year, I can assure the House that he would not be seen to have done anything compared to me.
However, I must say that this is called the CDF, which has nothing to do with the district. I would like to see a situation where constituencies such as Kasempa have more than Solwezi Central. However, we are dealing with CDF and we cannot start saying that CDF should be a District Constituency Fund. However, it is something worth thinking about.
I thank you, Madam.
Ms Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the ministry has plans to put in writing the guidelines that he has given us concerning the jurisdiction of the DDCC because there has been a lot of friction between the Members of Parliament, the Councils and the DC’s office over this issue.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, it seems some of the people I recruited in UPND and are now in PF did not understand my statement. I have done that already.
I thank you, Madam.
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, our export to the MMD, …
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: … is doing very well.
Madam Speaker, he realises that a full council has more powers in a district than the DDCC. Why has he found it necessary that after the council has approved a project, it should go back to the DDCC, giving it vetoing powers?
Madam, in Kalomo, after a project has been implanted using CDF, the DDCC checks to ensure there is no duplication. The council is the final authority. Why should a project be referred to the DDCC after it has been approved by the full council as your statement indicates, thereby giving the DDCC a little more powers than the full council?
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament, including my brother, Hon. Muntanga, have spoken to me about the delays in the disbursement of the CDF because of the procedures involved. When the Committee sits, its proposals go to the Planning Committee. Most of us normally have these subcommittees of the council meeting before the full council meeting. What I am saying is that it is not best to have these documents after the Planning Committee has sat and sent it to the DDCC, then wait for the full council which comes after three months to start looking at whether a particular project has gone to this place or not.
Madam Speaker, when the Planning Committee has agreed on the proposals, it is better for the full council to look at them so that when they agree that these are the projects to be funded, they would have had a final say.
Madam Speaker, when the proposals go to the DDCC, it will be a question of finding out whether, those projects have been funded by another Government wing or not. However, if we shall continue going by that programme of yours, it will be taking three months before you can disburse the money.
Madam Speaker, I think many hon. Members of Parliament are not interested in having a situation where the money is in an account for three to four months accruing interest which sometimes you do not even see.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, when the composition of the committee that sits on the CDF was constituted, constituency offices were not established. At the moment, we have professional assistants in our constituencies who man our offices when we are here in Lusaka. Hon. Minister, is your office considering including these personal assistants on the committee that looks at the disbursement as well as monitoring the usage of the CDF?
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I agree that the current guidelines have no provisions for personal assistants. I know that some hon. Members of Parliament, like me, have asked their personal assistants to attend the meetings so that they know how we are using the money, but they cannot vote because they are not members. The current regulations are that they are not members. That is why, in my statement, I said this coming year, it will be important for us, as hon. Members of Parliament, to contribute to the guidelines …
Hon. Members: Yes!
Mr Tetamashimba: … so that we are able to say that the professional assistants must be present or be secretaries. For now, it is unfortunate, hon. Member of Parliament, that we are unable to put them there. I think when we meet and decide that they must be included, that is the time we are going to include them. I can assure you that we are going to come back to you, next year, so that you can help us with the guidelines.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I stand to differ with the hon. Minister when he said that the CDF is meant for hon. Members of Parliament to win an election.
Hon. Government Members: No!
Mrs Kapata: Yes, I thought that CDF was meant for ordinary Zambians to share in the national cake. Why should we be late when giving CDF to constituencies that submit their returns on time? Why can we not give them as soon as they submit their returns?
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank my traditional cousin for that question.
Mrs Kapata interrupted.
Mr Tetamashimba: If you asked the question, let me answer, but if you go on talking then I will sit down.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Minister, answer the question.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for that question. All I was saying is that, as a Government, we have all the resources in the country and we must use them for us to continue governing.
As a small president in your constituency, …
Laughter
Mr Tetamashimba: … and since you wanted this money to come to your constituency, I am sure you can use that money to the satisfaction of the members of the constituency. If you do not use it correctly, I can tell you that you will not come back. I will stick to my word.
Laughter
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I would like to acknowledge the statement made by the hon. Minister and also observe that he made a very important offer that, next year, hon. Members of Parliament will be given an opportunity to feed into the guidelines of the CDF. I would like to find out whether in so doing, he is also preparing us to come up with an Act of Parliament on the utilisation of the CDF, given the fact that now, it is no longer a small amount. We are talking about K60 billion a year which, hopefully, shall be increasing on an annual basis.
Madam, I have asked this question because the hon. Minister should be aware of the inconsistencies between the guidelines …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Lubinda: … and some pieces of legislations.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Lubinda: Therefore, …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! We are not debating. Let us not change what we are doing here. Raise your point of clarification. If you go into issues and start debating, that is a different matter. You will have to bring a Motion in the House, but for now, can you ask your point of clarification?
You may continue, please.
Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I am sure that the hon. Minister is aware that there are inconsistencies between the guidelines and some Acts of Parliament. Is he, therefore, considering that when he comes to ask hon. Members of Parliament to make an input into those guidelines, he will also propose legislation to pass through this House so that CDF is managed by an Act of Parliament.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I am sure if you read the guidelines, you will notice that there are some problems in which a director is supposed be a secretary. I am sure you have seen this. However, our job is to try and be transparent because many hon. Members of Parliament have been asking us who should be included and I do not want to decide for them. That is why we are saying that we are going to ask hon. Members of Parliament to participate in drawing the guidelines. If the hon. Members of Parliament feel that there is a need to have an Act, it would be for them to decide in that favour. It is not for me to decide for hon. Members of Parliament.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if it is possible for him to release the names of constituencies which have not been given the CDF.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, if you do not find a letter in the pigeon hole, it means your consistency is one of those affected.
I thank you, Madam.
Laughter
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, during the just-ended election campaigns, the President is on record as having said that the CDF would be increased to K1 billion next year and the hon. Minister has just stated that this is up to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I would like to find out whether that statement was just used for political expedience or, indeed, the CDF is going to be increased as per Presidential directive.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kambwili who was actually attending our rallies, secretly.
Laughter
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Mr Tetamashimba: He is telling us how the PF was moving.
Laughter
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I agree that going by the role Hon. Mulongoti and I played in the election, the President of the Republic of Zambia mentioned that, ultimately, he would want to see the CDF increased to K1 billion.
Interruptions
Mr Tetamashimba: Our understanding is that, next year, if the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning thinks he can increase it by another K100 million, that would be fine, but our projection is K1 billion. Therefore, the President was in line with our projection and we are following exactly what the President had said …
Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: … because we want this Government to continue governing after 2011.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I got unsettled because the CDF returns for my constituency were sent in advance. Why should my constituency be affected?
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I do not think the hon. Members of Parliament who were in the House when I was giving my Ministerial Statement have gone out to check in their pigeon holes. When I started speaking, my staff brought the letters here and by the time we adjourn, if you do not find a letter in your pigeon hole, it means your constituency is one of the thirty-nine. When I try to make observations in terms of constituencies, I do not remember having seen your letter amongst those that I signed. I am sure you understand that.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I would like to state that the failure by the thirty-nine councils to submit their CDF returns is as a result of the bureaucracies that arise …
The Deputy Speaker: Order!
You are not supposed to debate. It is the hon. Minister who should state the position.
Can you ask your question, please?
Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the bureaucracies that are there in the councils have led to the failure by the thirty-nine councils to submit their returns on time. What is his ministry doing to ensure that the bureaucracies in releasing the money from the banks to the various projects are improved?
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, thank you for that supplementary question from the Hon. Mukanga, the Whip for Patriotic Front.
Interruptions
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, that was one of the issues I talked about in my ministerial statement. I was trying to help the hon. Members of Parliament by suggesting that we set aside a day when we can have the meeting I talked about earlier. After that meeting, we have to make sure that the returns are made. It seems in the thirty-nine constituencies affected, the hon. Members of Parliament, who are also councillors, deliberately did not want to attend council meetings to specifically see how the CDF was used. It is the responsibility of the hon. Members of Parliament to actually know how CDF has been used in their constituencies.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the hon. Members of Parliament must make sure that they have reports of how CDF has been used. If you are an hon. Member of Parliament and you do not want to be concerned about how CDF is disbursed and you do not want to ask your town clerk or council secretary to ensure that the returns are made, we are going to end up with a situation such as the one the thirty-nine constituencies have found themselves in. Therefore, my advice is that we should be concerned about the money which is specifically targeted to the constituencies of which we are senior members.
Madam Speaker, as for the thirty-nine constituencies, I can assure you that they have lamentably failed to submit the returns to the ministry through their councils for us to submit to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning so that we can have the next allocation. We should not blame the management. We must also blame ourselves as councillors because we are the employers of the council staff. We cannot be blaming other people and leave ourselves out as employers. I think that the hon. Members of Parliament should be concerned about this issue. For those who do not have the money now, we are adjourning sine die today, and you should make sure that by Monday, you are in your constituencies. You should discuss with your council secretaries or your town clerks and find ways of preparing the documents so that we can also release the money. Next year, I am sure you all know that by 31st December, sometimes, the money is sent back to the Treasury.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I would like to seek clarification on the 10 per cent monitoring and administration fund. We have a situation where the members of the Curriculum Development Centre (CDC) do not have access to any funds in terms of sitting allowances and of course, supervision and monitoring when the whole 10 per cent goes to the council. At the moment, we have a …
The Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask the question briefly, please.
Mr Mwenya: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister clarify on how the 10 per cent is supposed to be utilised. Is there a provision for members of the committee to access part of it in terms of sitting allowances?
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing should be specific and not give new speeches.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to concede that in the guidelines, there is no sitting allowance or transport allowance for those who come from very far. Although sometimes, when you want to empower councillors in the name of Members of Parliament, again, the political parties will start saying that you are paying people money. At the moment, what I must say is that if the members of the committee come from very far and spend their money on transport to come to the boma where the meetings are held, surely, it will be unfair for us to say that that they should use their own transport money, spend a night to make a decision over issues and go back the following day. I think nobody can do that. Even hon. Members of Parliament cannot do that. Some of us, in our constituencies, we had to use the 10 per cent to reimburse transport and to pay for accommodation and feeding, but not for allowances. However, it is up to you to discuss these issues. Maybe in the new guidelines, this can be included.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}
THE IMPACT OF GLOBAL DEVELOPMENTS ON THE ZAMBIAN ECONOMY
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I am making a ministerial statement on the Impact of Global Developments on the Zambian Economy.
Madam Speaker, the global economy is undergoing one of the most serious financial and economic crises since …
Interruptions
The Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, the hon. Minister is making a ministerial statement, and yet some of you who are not listening will start asking questions issues that are already outlined in the statement. That will not be allowed. When the hon. Minister is making a ministerial statement, it is expected that every member listens so that you can only ask on that which is not clear or has not been touched on.
The hon. Minister may continue, please.
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the global economy is undergoing one of the most serious financial and economic crises since the Great Depression of the 1930s. What started as a localised credit crunch in the United States of America (USA) has now spread across the world with varying effects.
For analytical convenience, this crisis is usually considered in two aspects, namely; the financial and the so-called Real Economy effects. I will approach the issue in a similar fashion.
Madam Speaker, let me begin with the background of the global financial crisis. The genesis of the financial crisis can be traced to the so-called sub-prime mortgage lending in the USA. In response to a booming market, the financial institutions in that country gave housing loans to people with poor or no credit history. However, housing prices started crushing after the US Federal Reserve, which is the Central Bank, in addressing concerns about the possibility of emerging inflationary pressures, continually raised interest rates between 2001 and 2007 from a low rate of 1 per cent to a peak of 5.25 per cent.
Overtime, the rising high borrowing costs started to have adverse repercussions on the US housing market, as people in more vulnerable fringes of the economy begun to default on their loans.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Can you be a little louder, hon. Minister.
Dr Musokotwane: Madam I hope this microphone can be adjustable upwards.
Dr Musokotwane adjusted the microphone.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Dr Musokotwane: Consequently, (shouting)…
Laughter
Dr Musokotwane: … this resulted in huge financial losses for the US financial institutions which had given out these loans, as they were not being repaid.
Mr Muntanga: He talks like a woman.
Interruptions
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the institutions that had extended the housing mortgages had meanwhile shared this risk of lending to the mortgage market through a process known as securitising the debt from the home borrowers. The resultant financial products were then sold to other financial institutions within and outside the USA. Indirectly, therefore, many more banks within the USA and beyond found themselves having been exposed to the mortgage market.
Furthermore, financial products derived from these housing loans such as bets on possibility of defaults were sold worldwide. The channels for spreading this financial crisis with origins in the USA are, therefore, quite clear. The resultant loss in confidence in the financial sector has led to a severe lack of liquidity to the finance consumer and investment activity, leading to a reduction in demand for goods and services in most economies.
This reduction in demand has, in turn, led to a fall in economic output, therefore, slowing down the major economies of the world. This is how the crisis migrated from being a pure financial affair, to being a broad-based economic problem, affecting other sectors of the global economy. This slowdown and subsequent recessionary environment has particularly affected the demand for major commodities such as copper and oil, thereby causing steep falls in their prices.
Madam Speaker, in response to these events, co-ordinated efforts to resuscitate the global economy have been taken by major industrial and emerging countries. Examples of this include the US$700 billion rescue package in the USA and similar packages in the United Kingdom (UK), France, China and many other countries. The initial rescue efforts were primarily focusing on stabilising the financial institutions so as to minimise the chances of them collapsing. Since then, the rescue efforts have been broadened to other economic sectors beyond finance. The impact of these measures, however, is not expected to be immediate and a full recovery is only expected in the medium term.
Madam Speaker, the Zambian economy is not immune to the negative effects of the global economy. The immediate impact on the economy has been on the foreign exchange market. It is expected that these effects are being or will be felt on the real economy in due course. Let me elaborate by first examining the financial side which I will then follow with the real side of the economy.
In Zambia, financial intermediation is mostly domestic orientated with banks’ external exposures being largely limited to accounts maintained in correspondent foreign banks for facilitating international businesses. Our commercial banks have, therefore, not been exposed to bad foreign loans related to sub-prime lending. Had the opposition been the case, many bank failures in Zambia would have occurred, leading to a local credit crunch and several bankruptcies in our industries. It is, therefore, gratifying that this danger is not anticipated.
Madam Speaker, the financial condition of the Zambian banking sector is otherwise currently satisfactory, as all banks are adequately capitalised with satisfactory asset quality and liquidity.
Madam Speaker, the more relevant immediate effect of the global financial events in Zambia has been the sharp depreciation and increase volatility of the Zambian currency, the kwacha, since October, 2008. A number of reasons can be attributed to this development.
Madam Speaker, foreign portfolios had become increasingly risk averse to domestic assets such as bills and Government Bonds. One of the consequences of this has been a drawdown on their holdings of Government securities in Zambia, as those that have matured have not been rolled over. This weakened demand for Government securities has led to a gradual increase in interest rates, particularly in short-term rates, such as treasury bill yields and the inter-bank rates. This has, in turn, led to an increase in bank lending rates.
Further, Madam, the change in expectations of investors on the short-term performance of the domestic mining industry arising from a slump in copper prices has also contributed to this. Expectations are mounting that reduced foreign exchange earnings could broadly hurt the Zambian economy, given that mining still remains the county’s main source of exports. This has led to foreign investor withdraws from the financial market.
As we all know, the price of copper has fallen by about 60 per cent from its peak of US$8,930 per tonne in July, to just over US$3,000 currently.
Madam Speaker, a further factor contributing to the depreciation of the kwacha has been the increased uncertainty that arose from the recent elections and the question of policy continuity by the new leadership, which has now been concluded.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Dr Musokotwane: Madam, the development in the foreign exchange markets are not peculiar to Zambia, as other emerging markets have undergone similar troubles. For example, the South African rand has depreciated by about 30 per cent since September, 2008. Other countries such as India, Brazil, Tanzania, Kenya and Uganda have also seen their currencies depreciate.
Madam Speaker, on the real side of the economy, Zambia’s GDP growth will largely emerge unhurt in 2008, but it is expected that there will be a slow down in economic growth in 2009 compared to the estimates that we had made earlier. This will be on account of the unexpected slow down in the mining and tourism sectors.
Madam Speaker, given the significant decline in world oil prices since October, 2008, it is expected that the benefits of lower fuel prices will begin to show from December, 2008, as the next fuel import will land at a lower cost and therefore, contribute to lower domestic fuel prices. However, the recent depreciation in the exchange rate will be a key challenge to passing on the full benefits of lower international fuel prices to the domestic consumers.
Madam Speaker, the low copper prices pose a significant threat to the continued strong economic growth experienced over the last five years. If these low prices continue to persist, future investment in copper mining which has been very robust in recent years may slow down or even decline. This is not good for our economy and for job creation. This is more so because of the indirect effects, as mining companies cancel previously planned projects and contracts in which companies from non-mining sectors had been engaged.
Madam Speaker, while this situation I have described warrants serious concern, we also need to put the effects of the global crisis in context, at least, on the basis of current prices of copper. Although the copper prices have drastically fallen as I indicated earlier, their present level is still much higher than the worst that we have seen in the last ten years. A decade ago, a pound of copper was U S $60 cents. Today, it is about U S $1.7 per pound. The situation is, therefore, not yet a disaster and as such, we should not lose confidence.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Dr Musokotwane: It is against this background that the Zambian Government still expects growth for 2008 as well as 2009 even though at a lower rate for the latter. Mining is still expected to grow next year although slightly slower because production in new mines such as Lumwana and Munali will commence while some old mines may also increase their production following the recent investments that they undertook. Construction is also expected to continue to grow as well as other sectors such as services and manufacturing.
Madam Speaker, the impact of the global events I have described and the subsequent effects on the domestic economy have already affected Government revenues in 2008 on account of lower mining revenues. The impact in 2009 may be stiffer if the price of copper remains low for the greater part of next year. Expenditures may, therefore, have to be realigned to ensure that priority programmes aimed at poverty reduction are safeguarded.
Madam Speaker, how is the Government responding to this challenge of the global crisis?
With regard to the banking system, the Bank of Zambia has enhanced its vigilance and interaction with the domestic banks to ensure adherence to supervisory guidelines. This is meant to ensure that our banking system remains safe and sound. The Government on its part will continue to use fiscal and monetary policy to mitigate the impact of the external events I have mentioned earlier.
Further, in a move to haste Zambia’s heavy reliance on copper, the Government is considering taking measures in the 2009 Budget to enhance the competitiveness of the economy and promoting economic diversification. In particular, infrastructure development will be given high priority, particularly in the areas of agriculture and tourism. It is a priority for this Government to achieve economic diversification through targeted interventions aimed at developing sectors that have the potential to steer us towards this goal of a diversified economy.
Madam Speaker, the Government has already initiated dialogue with the mining companies to assess how best the impact of the current global crisis can be mitigated. The ministries of Finance and National Planning and Mines and Minerals Development will, in the coming weeks, work closely with the mining industry to ensure that this receives the highest attention of the Government.
Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the Government is committed to its principle of maintaining fiscal prudence. In this regard, the Government will contain its expenditures in a manner that will not affect the core fundamentals of the Zambian economy. It will also actively support measures in co-ordination with the Bank of Zambia that ensures the stability of the financial system.
Notwithstanding the projected slowdown in the global economy and the fall in copper prices, the fundamentals in the Zambian economy remain strong in the medium term. Many major investments, particularly in the mining sector have already taken place. Others are in the pipeline
Madam Speaker, it is imperative to note that the Government views these events of the global economic crisis as a short-term phenomenon. In the medium economic plan, the Government is confident that Zambia will continue to provide a strong and conducive environment for investors and businesses alike so that this economy continues to grow and jobs get created
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarifications.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, the statement has given a gloomy picture pertaining to the Zambian economy. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the global financial crisis will adversely affect our budget for next year considering that countries that are donors will be financially affected.
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that question.
Madam Speaker, of course, this is a possibility and we cannot rule it out. So far, there is an indication, in meeting with our co-operating partners, that this will not be the case.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister will recall that in the 1990s when the production in the copper industry barely went up, it was rescued by diversification to non-traditional production, especially export, agriculture, tourism and so on and so forth. I am sure the hon. Minister is aware that in the last four years, this non-traditional sector has been virtually destroyed by over valuation of the kwacha such that, for example, there are two rose growers and seven coffee growers remaining in the country. What measures is the hon. Minister going to take in the next year or so to overcome the tremendous resistance of this non-traditional sector coming back into business when it was not looked after in the times of high copper prices? As they say in Tonga uluse lulalya.
Laughter
Dr Scott: That is how the saying goes. How will he convince them this time?
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Dr Scott: Thank you, Madam.
Hon. PF Members: Quality!
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair is asking the hon. Members to be specific when asking questions. Today, we have a very tight agenda with us and we must go through it. Can your questions be specific and do not make statements? Also, do not force the Chair to curtail your questioning.
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, non traditional exports have been expanding in Zambia. The figures show that very clearly. I do admit that there are certain items that have declined, including some of those the hon. Member indicated. However, the overall picture for non traditional exports has shows expansion.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: As we move forward, we have taken note of your points about the exchange rate and some of the non-traditional exports, but at the moment, there are a number of several initiatives going on to improve on our exports.
This year, as you may recall, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry attracted more than US$3 billion of investments. Some of that is non-traditional export.
Therefore, with time, many more investors will be invited to come to this country. Overall, I think that we are wiser now than what the hon. Member seems to be indicating.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the hon. Minister is not a stranger to the political corridors since he was a member of the Party Control Commission in the UNIP days, he should speak with more force on the Floor.
Laughter
Dr Kalumba: On account of the fact that he has stated that the fundamentals remain strong, what exactly does he mean when we look at the inflation rate which appears to be slightly nervous, for lack of a better term, the exchange rate, as Hon. Scott has mentioned, is also somewhat shaky. What fundamentals is he referring to that appear strong?
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, to start with, I wish to correct the hon. Member for Chienge that this, indeed, is the first time that I am holding a political position and I have never ever been a member of the commission he is referring to.
Laughter
Dr Musokotwane: I am sure he recalls some other names.
Laughter
Dr Musokotwane: With regard to the issue of fundamentals, I am looking at the growth of the economy that is very paramount because in the history of this country, there has not been many years when the economy grew. It is only in the last six or seven years or so when we have had strong positive growth.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: This is seen in the fact that now you have more people owning cars, television sets, …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: … and more people wearing proper clothes and not salaula.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: Of course, this not to say that everybody is perfect, but it is this gradual effect of persistent growth in the economy that is the most fundamental issue.
In the case of Zambia, I indicated that we expect the economy to grow even next year. The reason for that is that I told you that there has been investment in the copper mines that have not yet started producing. These mines will start producing next year. There has been other investments that have been undertaken or are in the pipeline. As a result of the combination of all these factors, we do not expect the economy to decline as was the case in most of the 1990s and early 2000s.
As far as the exchange rate is concerned, I admit that there has been depreciation, but I do not consider this a disaster.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Mushili (Ndola): Madam Speaker, the global economy recession has affected Zambia’s export earnings, particularly as far as minerals such as copper are concerned. What measures has the Government put in place to ensure that if the copper earnings will continue going down, the foreign investors will not run away, again, like the Anglo-American did, as well as some banks such as Barclays Bank. What measures is the Government putting in place?
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, investors only run away when they do not make money or if they are chased away.
I indicated in my remarks that the prices of copper today are not the same as they were at the beginning of this decade. I also indicated that this is not yet a disaster. As a result, I do not expect the investors to run away.
There are some challenges including the cost of production which went up everywhere in the world when mining was experiencing a boom. I have spoken to the mining industry personnel and they are addressing the issue of how to reduce the cost of production so that they remain viable.
In addition, in the past couple of years, the Government has made very serious efforts to woo investors into the country. Each time the Head of State travels out, there has been an agenda to speak to entrepreneurs all over the world to attract them to Zambia, to let them know that in Zambia there is peace and stability and that in Zambia there are profits to be made.
Apart from that, many of us have travelled extensively and I can assure hon. Members that the number of interests that are generating for Zambia from new investors, apart from those who are currently here, is overwhelming.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the Government what lessons it has learnt from the global economic crisis, especially in view of its adopted capitalist dictum that Government has no business in business. Does it understand now that sometimes it is extremely important to intervene in the market to save vital industries? What lessons has this Government learnt from what is happening in the world?
Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the statement I made a few moments ago is one example of how Government takes the initiative to go out and attract investment to the country.
In addition, I want to indicate to the House that the Government is taking initiative to establish the Special Economic Zones that we have spoken about before. This is the initiative of the Government. The Government is going to spend money on the infrastructure in the Special Economic Zones. Therefore, investors, both local and foreign, who would like to set up a factory, are free to do so. The old story of saying, “Come after three months, while we are still looking for land” will no longer be the case. The target is to ensure that any one wishing to establish a factory will find a plot that is serviced and ready to be used. This is the Government’s initiative.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I have also permitted the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry to make a Ministerial Statement.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
DISBURSEMENT CRITERIA FOR CITIZENS’ ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT FUND
The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make this ministerial statement on the disbursement criteria for the Citizens Economic Fund as you directed in the House yesterday.
Citizens’ economic empowerment is based on nine pillars, namely; equity, ownership, management and control, preferential procurement, skills development, access to finance, transformation of society, corporate social responsibility, good political and corporate governance, Greenfield investment and foreign direct investment.
Madam Speaker, I would like to update the House on the many milestones that the Citizens Economic Commission (CEEC) has achieved over the last few months.
Firstly, guidelines to developing economic empowerment sector codes were launched early this year to ensure that the sectors developed targets of how they would achieve economic empowerment of citizens in their sectors. Since then, the sectors that have been engaged in the development process and training programmes have been lined up for the sectors to facilitate the process of finalizing the sector codes. It gives me great pleasure to announce that most sectors have now understood the need to develop a good sector code and the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU) has shown impressive leadership and will be the first sector to launch their sector code before the end of 2008.
Secondly, Madam Speaker, the guidelines to accessing the empowerment products were published on 30th June, 2008 and the economic empowerment programme structure has been developed at both the district and provincial level.
Madam Speaker, the programme spells out the strategic direction of the empowerment process and provides the guidelines for accessing the empowerment fund by the citizens. The simple steps are as follows:
(a) first think of a commercially viable business idea;
(b) write a business proposal;
(c) go to any of the CEEC partner banks or financial institution and collect an application form;
(d) pay the required administrative fee;
(e) fill out the form and attach all necessary documents;
(f) submit the application to the District Development Co-ordinating Committee in your area for first screening and recommendation for funding;
(g) the District Empowerment Committee will then submit projects which meet and fulfil the CEEC appraisal criteria to the provincial empowerment committee for approval; and
(h) projects seeking more than K50 million will then be forwarded to the CEEC Head Office.
The House may recall that the Government directed that all the various funds that were managed by the various ministries be pooled into the empowerment fund. Further, the Government allocated K50 billion in the 2008 Budget bringing the total to K150 billion. A process has since been put in place in which each province has been allocated K10 billion for empowerment programmes at the provincial level bringing the total allocation to K90 billion. This is because the CEEC would like the beneficiaries to have easy access to financial resources and also to speed up the approval process for citizens.
The balance of K60 billion has been left at the commission for large capital projects and special purpose vehicles. Of the K10 billion allocated to each province, 40 per cent will be accessed by targeted citizens such as the women, youth, people living with disabilities and people living with HIV/AIDS.
Madam Speaker, allow me to elaborate the cost of the CEEC Fund and the issue of collateral. The commission realises that the targeted citizens may have difficulty providing collateral. Collateral for projects of up to K50 million will be dealt with in various ways such as asset finance, key man insurance, community referencing and other Small and Medium-sized Enterprises (SME) friendly permutations. Flexible collateral rules will apply for citizens seeking to borrow more than K50 million from the fund.
Madam Speaker, regarding the interest rates, the fund is currently lending money at 12 per cent interest. The rationale is to find a rate which is between the Government’s lending rate and the inflationary rate. All the funds will be accessed for productive purposes by micro, small, medium and large companies, Greenfield and start-ups which must be paid back.
Thirdly, after the presidential launch of the empowerment fund on 30th September, 2008, the commission began the capacity building of the empowerment committees at the district and provincial levels in appraisal techniques. Alongside this and in order not to slow down the system, the commission has been using its staff in the regions to continue with the screening and appraisal process. Up to 15th November 2008, the commission received 137 applications out of which six have been funded. These came from tourism, manufacturing, engineering and distribution and the total amount is K1.45 billion. Thirteen other applications had minor defects which are being rectified and will be disbursed during the month of December. These total up to K7.5 billion. A good number of the projects were sent back with comments to the promoters for refinement and resubmission.
Madam Speaker, I will now focus on the institutional framework established to deliver the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission Programmes and services. The institutional framework clearly spells out the specific roles and responsibilities of each actor at the district and provincial level.
The CEEC has deliberately used existing structures at the district and provincial levels in order to reach the intended targets at a minimum cost. In this regard, the CEEC will work though the Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee and the District Development Co-ordinating Committee which represent all the stakeholders at the provincial and district levels. The commission will be represented at provincial level through the provincial empowerment co-ordinators.
Madam Speaker, under these structures, the empowerment committees have been formed at the district and provincial levels comprising the representatives from the financial institutions, private sector, women, youth and people living with disabilities. These committees, with the help of technocrats, will appraise the applications at the provincial level and approve applications of up to a threshold of K50 million to facilitate for citizens to access the resources easily. Projects above K50 million will be approved by another CEEC committee at the head office.
Madam Speaker, you may recall that the engagement of banks as institutions to provide such services is a legal requirement imposed by the CEEC Act No. 9 of 2006. According to Article 30(1), which reads, “the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund established under this section twenty-nine, shall be vested in the Commission, but shall be managed and administered by various financial institutions and fund managers that meet the criteria prescribed by the President”.
Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that for the citizens to effectively access the application forms and funds, four financial institutions, namely; ZANACO, NATSAVE, Finance Bank and Standard Chartered Bank have been engaged to provide financial services, including stocking the forms in their various branches throughout the country. We are currently negotiating with the Investrust Bank to also participate.
Madam Speaker, the commission carried out extensive consultation with a number of district authorities to identify which districts have or have no banking facilities. We have established that twenty-one districts have no banking facilities. The commission is currently exploring alternative avenues such as engaging macro-financing institutions and other institutions such as district councils that are able to handle revenue.
Madam Speaker, the august House may wish to know that the applicants are not required to purchase the forms, but are rather required to pay a small administrative fee. The following are the administrative fees:
(i) K10,000 for those wanting to borrow up to K50 million;
(ii) K20,000 for those borrowing between K50 million and K250 million; and
(iii) K100,000 for those borrowing more than K250 million.
Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me state that the Government remains committed to creating an enabling environment for all the sectors of the economy, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, but providing enterprise development, access to finance and market opportunities through the various policies, including CEE.
I would like to appeal to the citizens to ensure sustainability of the fund by developing a repayment culture so that as many citizens as possible can benefit from this resource.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Hon. Minister, according to your statement, do you realise how many Zambians you are going to exploit by just buying a form at as high as K100,000 and who, at the end of the day, will not even access this fund?
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, exploitation does not come into play if you intend to borrow greater than K250 million. Surely, to pay a K100,000 administrative fee can never be equated to exploitation.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, I wanted to ask a question specifically to do with the structure arrangements that you have put in place for one to access the funds. In your statement, you have indicated that your commission will use the district Development Co-ordinating Committee (DDCC) and the Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee (PDCC). Do you realise that these two structures are actually administrative structures that will not be able to assist the commission in the manner you think. I realise that the commission might not understand exactly the functions of the DDCC and that added function would not be in line with the prescribed functions currently in the circular issued which established those two committees at the district and provincial levels.
Madam Deputy Speaker: You are debating hon. Member, ask the question.
Mrs Masebo: Sorry, Madam Speaker, the question is, why do you not use the structures that are legal, for example, the local councils …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Masebo: … that you have countrywide, instead of using structures that are just administrative.
Mr Muntanga: Local Government and Housing versus Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the DDCC and PDCC are administrative structures. That is correct. The role that will be performed at the district level is to supreme the applications for the purpose of approval at the provincial centre. The reason we are using this administrative structure is that there are better connected with the applicants at the district level to know that this project can actually be implemented at the district level.
Hon. Opposition Members: No!
Mr Mutati: I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister referred to vulnerability. Vulnerability means incapacity to develop anything. I would like to ask the hon. Minister the kind of vulnerability he is referring to and what is expected to be achieved. Does the hon. Minister intend to reach the beneficiaries or just the apamwamba people?
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: The apamwamba are the people who are able to develop business proposals. What about my mother? What about my sister? What about my aunt? What about my uncles? What about my people in Kwacha Constituency …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Shorten your list, please.
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: … who are unable to develop business proposals? What about my Speaker also?
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Can the hon. Minister explain how we can access the fund …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr L J Mulenga: … without impudence.
Laughter
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that most eloquent question. One of the fundamentals that we must all realise is that not all of us are entrepreneurs and not all of us in our families can have business ideas that are going to result in a transaction. So, this fund is meant only for those members of your family who have a business idea that can be converted into a transaction and that are able to return what they borrow.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister’s explanation, to me, appears extremely bureaucratic. I would like to find out whether it does not make business logic that anyone who can come up with a collateral security of K50 million is already an empowered person.
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we are talking about an amount of up to K50 million and this means that you can borrow as little as half a million up to K50 million. So, depending on the scale you are at, you are less or more empowered, but what you may lack is a resource to be able to translate that ability you have into a transaction. For example, among those whose applications were successful, there was someone who had a contract to supply cement at Meanwood. That was a good idea. The empowerment commission facilitated for that chain of supply up to K50 million. So, the collateral is the onward sum for development.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, if these funds are meant to empower Zambians, why do we still have bottlenecks? For example, there is insistence on three years books of accounts which most vulnerable people are unable to provide. Furthermore, these funds are administered at one central point for the whole country, making it difficult for people in far-flung places to access it for activities such as irrigation. What measures has the ministry put in place to ensure that these conditions are loosened?
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we have two types of categories. There is a category for start-up business and another one for existing business that require expanding. In the case of a start-up business, there is no history to give because it is just starting up. However, as regards an existing business that wants to expand, surely there is a need to show financial discipline to demonstrate how one is going to move forward. Past financial records cannot just be ignored.
Madam Speaker, when required to submit financial information, applicants have sometimes indicated that it is not applicable. How are we going to assess the viability of a particular proposal if a financial history is not provided?
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the …
Interjections
Mr Sichamba: Sorry, Madam Speaker. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if he is aware that the DDCCs just meet quarterly in a year. As a Government, we want the services of these committees provided. Does he have any plans to have the committees reviewed so that new ones are formed and of course, allow hon. Members of Parliament to take part and if possible, reduce the 12 per cent interest rate which is part of the conditions?
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, what is interesting is that in a number of locations where applications have been received, there has been very active participation of the DDCCs. They are the ones who have been able to process the 137 applications. Therefore, they have been able to meet. We realise that this is not cast in stone. As we go on and learn new lessons, we are going to adjust to make sure that we minimise the administrative inconveniences as much as possible.
As regards the 12 per cent interest rate, we have to acknowledge the fact that at the moment, the average interest rate on a bank loan is 20 per cent. So, we think that 12 per cent per annum is quite cost effective because it translates to 1 per cent interest per month. Surely, any business idea should be able to make money greater than 1 per cent profit per month.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
____________ {mospagebreak}
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
EXPATRIATE MEDICAL PERSONNEL
486. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Health:
(a) how many of the following medical personnel worked as expatriates in Zambia from 2006 to-date:
(i) doctors;
(ii) nurses; and
(iii) consultants; and
(b) under which hospitals and areas of specialty the medical personnel at (a) above operated.
The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, the medical personnel who worked as expatriates in Zambia from 2006 to-date are:
(i) Doctors
Congolese 199
Indians 82
Chinese 63
Uzbekistanis 37
Egyptians 12
Cubans 10
Total 403
(ii) Nurses 33
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.
[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was replying to the question asked by the hon. Member for Kankoyo and was saying that there were twenty-one consultants.
As regards part (b) of the question, doctors are spread throughout the country from first level hospitals, which are district hospitals, to third level hospitals, which are tertiary institutions such as the University Teaching Hospital.
In the case of nurses, these are spread all over health institutions from health posts to tertiary institutions.
Consultants are only found at second and third level hospitals by virtue of the work they do. The areas of specialisation are varied and include among others, oncologists, gynaecologists, surgeons and general medical officers.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why it has been cheaper, in the ministry’s own way, to maintain expatriate doctors, nurses and consultants at the expense of the locals.
The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to make it clear that though we have given a number of 403 expatriate doctors, in reality these are doctors who are not Zambian, but in most cases are working on local conditions. In other words, they are on local and not expatriate conditions. However, there are some who are on expatriate conditions.
Madam Speaker, I, however, want to make it clear that there are very few countries that do not have expatriates. We have expatriates because it is necessary at times to have this mixture of expertise.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister give us a clear picture on the issue of Cuban doctors. At one time, in this country, there was an influx of Cuban doctors. Under which conditions were they brought into the country and what is the current situation on this same issue?
Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I am thankful for that question. The conditions of the Cuban doctors were governed by two components. There was a Cuban component, paid for them in Cuba as well as a Zambian component paid for them in Zambia. The Zambian component was on local conditions.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, the number of 403 doctors indicates that we have enough doctors in the country. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why his ministry lamentably failed to distribute these doctors to health institutions evenly?
Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I understand the hon. Member’s frustration. We are just at about half the establishment. We still do not have enough doctors even at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). It is not like we have enough doctors, but are not distributing them evenly.
I thank you, Madam.
FIRE TENDERS
487. Mr Chanda asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) how many fire tenders were in each of the following towns:
(i) Lusaka;
(ii) Kabwe;
(iii) Ndola;
(iv) Kasama; and
(v) Mufulira;
(b) how often the fire tenders at (a) above were serviced and by who;
(c) how many lives were lost in the fires recorded in the towns at (a) above from 2000 to 2008;
(d) out of the total number of fatalities at (c) above, how many were firemen and women; and
(e) how often firemen and women were sent on refresher courses.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musosha): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the following towns have fire tenders:
Town Number of Fire Tenders Condition
Lusaka 5 only one is operational
Kabwe 3 only one is operational
Ndola 3 only one is operational
Kitwe 3 only one is operational
Kasama 2 only one is operational
Mufulira 2 both are in good condition
Madam Speaker, my ministry is concerned that even larger cities such as Lusaka, Ndola, Livingstone and Kitwe are unable to provide adequate fire cover, leading to loss of property due to the frequency of fire outbreaks. The Government has also noted the huge costs associated with the acquisition of appropriate fire-fighting equipment, and it is for this reason that my ministry has approached the association of the Japanese Diplomacy in Tokyo to assist in identifying good second hand fire tenders from different local authorities which could be donated to Zambia.
Madam Speaker, this is done in conjunction with Zambia mission in Japan and I must say here that the discussions have been positive.
However, my ministry will be required to budget for the transportation of these pieces of equipment over a period of years so that all the councils in the country can be equipped with fire-fighting equipment.
Madam Speaker, local authorities service the fire tenders in their workshops. The frequency of servicing the fire tenders is guided by the operational manuals and the age of the equipment. However, the Government supplements funds for purchase of spares for councils which fail to raise such funds.
Between 2000 and 2008, the following are the numbers of lives lost in fires in the districts listed below:
District No. of deaths
Lusaka 50
Kabwe 04
Ndola 04
Kitwe 82
Kasama 0
Mufulira 06
Madam Speaker, in all the incidents indicated above, no fire fighter died in a fire accident.
Madam Speaker, due to lack of facilities to undertake refresher courses at the fire training school, firemen are unable to upgrade their skills on a regular basis. However, my ministry has embarked on a programme to rehabilitate the infrastructure at the fire training school to carter for refresher courses for all fire officers by next year.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the answer that has been given on this question paints a very good picture with regard to the situation of fire outbreaks in this country. When will the ministry think of upgrading the Kabwe Fire Service Training School and train firemen and women on regularly?
Mr Musosha: Madam Speaker, I have just indicated here that rehabilitation programmes are underway. By next year, these programmes would have taken place.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Kambwili (Roan): In view of the alarming number of fire tenders that are not working, is it not a waste of public money to pay for freight for other equipment when you cannot maintain the equipment that is already in the country?
Mr Musosha: Madam Speaker, everybody knows that vehicles, even new ones, once bought, can just move for maybe, a short while and then break down. It is the same pattern with the vehicles that have been bought as fire tenders for our local authorities. They are prone to such break downs because they are machines. As for the new machines that we are sourcing from the donor community, when they come, we will be guaranteed that they are going to do a good job because they are coming as new pieces.
I thank you, Madam.
ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION
488. Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:
(a) which Zambian industries had adverse effects on the environment;
(b) what measures the Government had taken to tackle the increasing deterioration in the quality of the environment through charcoal burning in the rural areas; and
(c) how much money had been spent on combating the above situation.
The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Madam Speaker, industries that had adverse effects on the environment are as follows:
(i) mining and mineral processing;
(ii) brewing and malting plants;
(iii) cement and lime manufacturing plants;
(iv) asbestos industries;
(v) fertiliser manufacturing or processing plants; and
(vi) abattoirs and meat processing plants.
Madam Speaker, my Government has introduced measures to tackle the increasing deterioration in the quality of the environment through charcoal burning in the rural areas by sensitising and engaging the Charcoal Producers Association of Zambia on the advantage of carrying out their operations in designated areas which are known as coups. Under the coups system, areas for charcoal production will be identified in each district and sub divided into lots. These lots will be given out by area leaders of the association for the purpose of charcoal production thus self regulating under the auspices of our ministry.
It is my sincere belief that under the coups system, our forests will be able to regenerate.
Furthermore, my ministry has embarked on a reforestation programme with emphasis on plantation expansion in regional and local supply plantations.
Madam Speaker, as regards part (c) of the question, there are other key players involved in combating the situation at (a) above. The investors spend on Environmental Impact Assessment while my ministry, through the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ), also spends as a regulator. From January to June, 2008, the ECZ has spent K1,153,537,400.44 on supervision and monitoring through the following:
(i) licensing and inspections;
(ii) environment impact assessment internal reviews and verification;
(iii) stakeholder consultations on control of packaging materials (plastics);
(iv) stack sampling measurements for control of air pollution;
(v) emergence response and control of chemicals; and
(vi) phasing out of ozone depleting substances.
As for part (b) of the question, Madam Speaker, my ministry has so far spent K40 million from this year’s allocation on the sensitisation of charcoal burners to revert to the coup system as opposed to the current situation. However, this amount has been supplemented by the appropriation in aid where K100 million so far has been spent on this programme.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwangala: On the reforestation programme, my ministry has so far spent K3, 710,172,729 on the purchase of tractors, nursery establishments and land clearing for this year’s planting season.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, according to the answer given by the hon. Minister, concerning the asbestos industry is one of those that have adverse on the environment. What has this Government done specifically to protect the Zambians from pollution from the asbestos industry?
The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Speaker, the Environmental Council of Zambia gives industries specific quarters on emissions and how to handle such emissions.
Madam Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated what the Environmental Council of Zambia and the ministry do. In addition to what the Government does, the Environmental Council of Zambia also expects that the industry will make returns to ECZ every six months.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, I would like to take advantage of this question to find out from the hon. Minister if she will move speedily to repeal an illegal regulation in the statutory instrument issued by her ministry which allows the minister to override the principal Act, the provisions of the Environment and Pollution Control Act of Zambia, which was ruled to be illegal in this House by the Committee and by the whole House and this was brought to the attention of the then minister, Hon. Kabinga Pande, and his successor, and yet the ministry continues to use it. Is the Govern now willing to repeal that illegal provision so that we do not have illegal establishments such as the steel plant in Kafue that was built in a residential area, the structure built by Zambezi Oil Trading along a highway and next to a residential area and many other illegal developments as a result of the illegal use of the statutory instrument?
Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, indeed, the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act (EPPA) is currently under review, but I would also like to say that there is a lot of ignorance about the activities and the role of the Environmental Council of Zambia not only among the general public but also among the hon. Members of this House. I would like to call upon the hon. Members of this House to do as much as they can to read and get to understand the role of the Environmental Council of Zambia because it is meant to protect the environment for the benefit of the current and future generations.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
POLICIES AND LABOUR LAWS THE GOVERNMENT INTENDS TO DEPLOY
489. Mr Kasongo asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security what policies and labour laws the Government intended to deploy in order to reduce conflict of interest between the local people and the migrant workers in Zambia’s emerging mining areas such as Lumwana and Kansanshi.
The Minister of Labour and social Security (Mr Liato): Madam Speaker, I wish to state that this question had already been asked much earlier in the year and this is the second time we are answering the same question. Therefore, I wish to restate the answer we gave then.
Our ministry is not aware of any conflict of interest between the local people and the migrant workers in Zambia’s emerging mining areas such as Lumwana and Kansanshi. The policy of the Government, in conformity with ILO Convention No. 111 dealing with discrimination and employment and occupation, is that there shall be equal treatment for all workers both local and migrants who are citizens of Zambia. Under Section 108 of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Chapter 269 of the Laws of Zambia, no employee shall be discriminated against on account of sex, tribal, race, colour, religious belief, political affiliation or social status. Any person so aggrieved is free to lodge a complaint with our ministry or, indeed, with the Industrial Relations Court.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, positive discrimination is a principle in affirmative action. Is it not right, hon. Minister, to suggest that we must employ positive discrimination in those emerging markets such as Lumwana, lest we kill a culture of the people, given the disproportionate demographic figures in the North-Western Province vis-à-vis as they relate to the migrant populations.
Mr Liato: Madam Speaker, I understand the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala, but Zambia has pursued this policy of recruitment over the years and it has worked very well. We have not encouraged positive discrimination for fear of dividing the country on tribal lines. We wish to continue to pursue this policy even in the case of Lumwana and Kansanshi because it has worked so well.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
RADIO COVERAGE IN RURAL AREAS
490. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services:
(a) why radio coverage was poor in the rural areas; and
(b) when the Ministry would resolve the problem at (a) above.
The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Muchima): Madam Speaker, admittedly, radio signals for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Radio 1 and 2 in rural Zambia is poor. The reason for the poor reception is that currently, radio coverage in rural Zambia for Radio 1 and 2 relies on shortwave (SW) transmission which is greatly influenced by various conditions in the sky.
The type of antennas currently in use for radio 1 and 2 are not efficient and able to successfully track these conditions which, in fact, have long been identified. The solution is to replace the antennas with more efficient ones which will deliver signals reliably at a high level throughout the day.
Madam Speaker, the short wave antenna problem is being resolved by ZNBC with the procurement of new antennas for Radio 1 and 2 which are now being installed.
Communication Technology Broadcasting (Pty) (CTB), a South African company, has been contracted for the job. The contractor is on site and the task is expected to be completed by the end of November, 2008.
In the long term, the Government plans to facilitate FM radio transmission in rural Zambia through the installations of FM transmitters.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, radio reception in Lundazi Central, Chasefu, and Lumezi constituencies has been very poor since independence. Could the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services assure us that with the recently given mandate, radio reception will improve?
Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, it has just been mentioned that the contractor is on site and will be completing his work in two day’s time after which, to be very specific, you are assured an improved reception.
I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}
REHABILITATION OF POLICE CAMPS IN ZAMBIA
491. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) when police camps in Zambia would be rehabilitated;
(b) whether there was any rehabilitation programme for police camps in Zambia by December, 2007; and
(c) what percentage of police officers lived outside police camps countrywide.
The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, allow me to inform this august House that the rehabilitation of police camps in Zambia is an ongoing programme.
Madam, as at December, 2007, ten police camps countrywide were undergoing rehabilitation as follows:
Camp Division
Sibutu Western
State House State House
Kapiri Mposhi Central
Sikanze Lusaka
Mindolo and Kamfinsa Copperbelt
Nyimba Eastern
Kafula Musungu and Nambuluma Northern
Manyinga Northern-Western
Choma Southern
This year, Makeni Westwood Police Station and Lilayi Police College have been rehabilitated.
Madam Speaker, forty-one per cent of police officers live outside police camps. Out of 14,478 police officers, 8,494 are accommodated in police camps while 5,984 live outside police camps.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Mukanga: Some of the camps that have not been rehabilitated to date are in a worse condition than the ones that are being rehabilitated. I would like to find out what criterion was used to choose what particular police camps to be rehabilitated?
The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, what is important to know is that this is an on-going programme which will cover the whole country. This has nothing to do with what the hon. Member seems to be insinuating.
Madam Speaker, it is important to note that we have decided to constitute a builder’s brigade within the Zambia Police Service so that renovation of police camps and minor works for routine maintenance will now be done in-house and more efficiently.
I thank you, Madam.
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I would like to know whether the hon. Minister can give us a time frame for this exercise of rehabilitation of police camps given that the crime rate in some instances is associated with the length of time a police officer stays in one police camp. For instance, in Namwala, some police officers have become ranchers because of having been there for thirty years.
Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, it would be very difficult for us to give the time frame. However, we can assure the House that this programme has already started and will continue. It will cover the whole country and all police camps will be rehabilitated in due course. That is the undertaking that we can make.
I am not sure whether there is a relationship between the length of stay of a police officer in a particular area and crime. I am not sure whether we can make that connection. Statistically I do not think we can.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Dr Mwansa: If there are any instances of crime associated with the length of stay of a particular officer in a certain camp, bring it to our attention then we can specifically deal with it. However, there is no direct relationship between the two.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
CHISHETA RURAL HEALTH POST IN CHIPILI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY
492. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Health when the Chisheta Rural Health Post in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency would be rehabilitated.
Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the District Health Management Team, in collaboration with the community, has already moulded the bricks for the rehabilitation of the health post. Plans have been put in place to commence the rehabilitation works in the first quarter of 2009.
I thank you. Madam Speaker.
RADIO COMMUNICATION AT MUSALANGO RURAL HEALTH CENTRE
493. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Health when a radio communication system would be provided at Musalango Rural Health Centre in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency.
Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform this august House that radio communications equipment is planned to be installed in the first quarter of 2009.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
OLD MKUSHI/CHINGOMBE ROAD
494. Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the old Mkushi/Chingombe Road in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency would be graded.
The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that we have no plans to upgrade the Old Mkushi/Chingombe Road. However, the contract for the rehabilitation of D207 Piccadilly Circus Road and D200 Kabwe Town-Old Mkushi Road was awarded to China Geo Engineering Corporation at a contract amounting to K21,772,683,362, VAT inclusive on 20th June, 2008. The contract was signed on 25th August, 2008. The works commenced on 15th September, 2008, and are expected to be completed in May, 2009. When funds are made available, we shall rehabilitate the remaining road in Mkushi and the Old Mkushi/Chingombe Road.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chisanga: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the people of Chingombe voted for the Government, hence they deserve development in the area.
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, that is the more reason we are tackling part of the Old Mkushi Road. If we did not recognise the contribution of the people of Chingombe, we would not have started rehabilitating any part of the road. Therefore, we are on course.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
MBOROMA POLICE STATION IN MKUSHI SOUTH PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY
495. Mr Chisanga asked the hon. Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) when Mboroma Police Station in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency would be provided with a motor vehicle; and
(b) what measures the Government would take to reduce the murders being committed by criminals in Luano Valley in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency.
Mr Bonshe: Madam Speaker, to answer this question, I wish to inform the House that:
(a) procurement of motor vehicles for operational purposes has been an on-going exercise which is done in phases due to inadequate funds. As such, Mboroma Police Station in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency will be provided with a motor vehicle in the coming phases;
(b) the Zambia Police Service will intensify patrols in the Luano Valley in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency as a measure to reduce murders committed by criminals.
The Inspector-General of Police has instructed the command in Mkushi to establish a neighbourhood watch in the area. However, plans are underway to establish a police post.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Chisanga: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to give a timeframe when a vehicle will be sent to Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency.
Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, procurement of equipment, including transport is ongoing and every year, we budget for procurement of these pieces of equipment. In due course, we will assign a vehicle to Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
________
MOTIONS
SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 20, 21 (1) AND 101
The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20 and 21 (1), if necessary, and Standing Order 101, be suspended to enable the House complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.
Madam Speaker, this is a straightforward motion which is non-controversial. Last Friday, when outlining the Business of the House, I intimated that, keeping all factors constant, it might be necessary for me to move this motion, today, to allow hon. Members of Parliament take a rest and attend to other equally important national issues either to their constituencies or offices. I am sure hon. Members of Parliament need this break to prepare for the festive season. Above all, the House is adjourning at a time when the rainy season is just beginning. We have an opportunity to demonstrate our hard work outside this House by participating in agriculture. As the planting season has just started, I wish to call on hon. Members of Parliament to use this break to encourage our people throughout the country to grow maize and other food crops.
Madam Speaker, during this meeting of the House, which started on Tuesday, 11th November, 2008, the House has sat for a total of twelve days. Evidently, this is a short period. This notwithstanding, hon. Members will agree with me that it has been yet another productive meeting in which many issues of national importance have been dealt with.
Madam Speaker, during this meeting, a total of 160 questions were placed on the Order Paper and considered. The House also considered a total of nineteen motions to adopt sessional committee reports. Furthermore, six ministerial statements were presented and considered by the House and this helped explain the Government’s position on various issues.
Twenty-three annual reports from Parliamentary Sessional Committees, Government ministries and departments and quasi-government institutions were received and laid on the Table of the House. The House also dealt with three Bills that were referred back for reconsideration by His Excellency the President. The House considered Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2008 which were approved to support the developmental activities of the country.
Madam Speaker, it is clear from the foregoing that hon. Members were disposed of a heavy workload in a very short time. This goes to show the seriousness which hon. Members attached to the work of this august House. To all hon. Members, I say, well done. Let us continue being dedicated to parliamentary work to bring about the much desired development in our country. Let the spirit of handwork and commitment, permeate beyond the walls of Parliament to the entire nation so that we all meaningfully contribute to making Zambia a better country.
Madam Speaker, this being the last meeting this year, allow me to solemnly remember His Excellency the President, the late Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, and the other hon. Members of Parliament who we lost this year. Their contribution to the nation and our democracy will forever be remembered and cherished. May the souls of our late President and other departed hon. Members rest in peace.
Madam Speaker, in the same vein, allow me to congratulate all the hon. Members who joined us recently following the Presidential and Parliamentary By-elections last month. I can only wish them good luck as we grapple with the various development challenges to better the lives of all our citizenry.
Madam, may I now take this opportunity to express my profound gratitude to you and all presiding officers for the very effective and efficient manner in which you handled the proceedings of the House throughout the year. Your outstanding guidance, fair rulings, wisdom and effective leadership, no doubt, encouraged and inspired the hon. Members, thereby greatly contributing to the success of the Business of the House.
Madam Speaker, permit me also to pay tribute to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the efficient services they rendered to the House. I should also commend the officers in the Office of the Vice-President as well as officials in Government ministries and departments who played a part in making the work of this august House a resounding success. I urge them all to continue working hard for the betterment of the country.
Finally, Madam Speaker, I wish you and all hon. Members a very happy festive season and a more productive 2009.
Madam Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I stand to support the motion to adjourn sine die and that we go back to our constituencies at this momentous time. For me, this is a very emotional time in which a country makes or breaks.
Therefore, Madam Speaker, I would like to talk about the issue of the Fertiliser Support Programme to small-scale farmers, which is very hot in our constituencies. This issue is on top of the agenda as we go to our constituencies. This country is basically an agricultural country. It is very embarrassing to see a country that is blessed with vast tracts of land; plenty of water and rainfall suffer from food insecurity.
Madam Speaker, at the heart of this problem is the administration of the incentives to small-scale farmers. Yesterday, I was impressed to see that the former hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has seen the need for proper administration of incentives to the farmers. Yesterday, he raised a point of order on the Fertiliser Support Programme and yet, when he was there, he was uncooperative. I therefore, want to warn these hon. Ministers that when you sit in those chairs, you should show some seriousness about these issues.
Madam Speaker, it is very disappointing that it had to take the late President to implore the ministries concerned to increase this support programme. Last year, it was cut, and yet this country is suffering from serious food insecurity. What do you want God to do for us? We have vast tracts of land, plenty of water and rainfall. Why should we fail to inject the necessary ingredients to make sure that we produce enough food? Maize is simply grass. Why should we be a country that cannot even produce grass? What do you need to produce maize? This country is full of intellectuals, hon. Members, hon. Ministers and directors and are failing to solve a simple paradox. What kind of a country are we?
Madam Speaker, Malawi is a small country with a large population and, today, is a main supplier of maize in the sub region.
Mr V. Mwale: Bagula ku Chipangali!
Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, when I went to South Africa to attend a conference, I met hon. Members of Parliament from Malawi, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Uganda and other countries. I was very embarrassed to learn that the Zimbabweans are now getting maize from Malawi. Zambia, which has the best potential in the whole Southern Africa is failing to solve a simple problem of producing enough maize.
Madam, this year, I would like to welcome, once again, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. We require flexibility from you when the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives comes to seek audience with you. The problem is on the allocation and release of finances timely. All these years, we have had these good incentives such as the Fertiliser Support Programme and also the purchase of maize through the Food Reserve Agency. These programmes have been mal-administered and poorly implemented to a point where they are boomeranging. You are spending money and there are no good results because of poor implementation.
For example, Madam Speaker, the delivery of farming inputs this year has delayed. I am aware of the problems these small-scale farmers are facing even in my constituency. I just came from there on Tuesday.
Madam, the people who work at Mulungushi House are failing to be innovative and support people in the provinces and the districts. In fact, I feel like demolishing Mulungushi House. What is wrong with it? Is there a ghost? The District Agricultural Coordinators (DACOs) and the Provincial Agricultural Coordinators (PACOs) have failed completely.
Madam Speaker, in farming, there is what we call prime planting time. You do not plant maize continuously like you are selling in the market. You plant at the right time. If you do not, you are wasting your fertiliser. Do you want to waste K400 billion worth of fertiliser? At the moment, farmers in Monze and elsewhere are queuing for seed when the planting season is almost over. You do not give fertiliser at the same time with seed. Seed must be given in August. It is as simple as that. I wish the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives was here.
Hon. Members: He is there!
Hon. Chituwo smiled.
Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, this time, we will play a hard ball on you. You cannot subject this country to insecurity. You have already seen people suffer. You are a new minister and you should be very careful.
Laughter
Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, at the moment, this country, with the global financial tsunami, can be ungovernable if you mishandle the issue of food security. Already, some people were demonstrating in the streets. We want enough maize in this country so that the people in town can become comfortable and stop demonstrating, disrupting business and destroying shops. You must take the bull by its horns. If you miss this opportunity, I am telling you, this Government will barley survive the remaining three years. I am giving friendly advice.
Hon. UPND Member: Free of charge.
Mr Hamududu: Through you, Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that already, this colossal amount of K400 billion is a waste because its use is ill timed.
Madam Speaker, last year, farmers got their seed in January, receiving top dressing before basal dressing. When I asked that was happening, I was told they were busy working on papers and holding meetings. I almost smashed that office in Mazabuka. People want to plant their seed and you are wasting their productive time. They are in town, instead of the fields planting maize. I wish to inform you that I planted my maize by 30th October and already the maize is knee high. The science of maize, Madam, is that when heavy rains come, for example in the Southern Province, when the maize is already tall, it will not be disturbed by the heavy rains. However, what will happen now with the weather pattern that we know, if we plant late and heavy rains come this December, the maize will not survive the heavy rains.
You are messing up and wasting people’s money. Madam, K400 billion is being wasted. The distribution of seed must be separated from the release of the fertiliser. The seed must be in people’s homes by August. I bought my seed in June and I kept it in my house. The basal dressing must come in September.
Mr Muntanga: Yes.
Mr Hamududu: However, you are distributing both seed and fertiliser as though they are used at the same time. You know very well what is happening in the constituencies. I want to appeal to the new hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to shake that Mulungushi House up. We do not know whether some of those people are agents of the Washington Consensus Agenda to destroy our agriculture and create markets for the western countries so that they can raise their US$700 billion bailout plan for their collapsing economy. Where do you think this US$700 billion is going to come from for America to be bailed out for a collapsed economy and a collapsed banking system? They are going look to the poor countries and here we are busy sleeping. We will destroy our productive capacity …
Hon. UPND Member: Wake-up!
Mr Hamududu: …so that they can come here to produce their crops and export them.
Madam Speaker, this Government must solve the problem of food insecurity. If you do not do that you are going to have a difficult time in the remaining two years because we shall play hard-ball on you. I am telling you that even the people in your constituencies will start chasing you. We need to address this issue.
These people who are coming into town must stop doing that. Let them go and produce from the land. We have many loafers in town who can be used to do anything. It would be easy to start a rebel movement in this country. There are too many loafers. Let them go and produce maize. The white mealie meal that people see begins as green grass. It is a grass grown on the land. Let the people go back to the land and grow food that we can export to other countries. With the global financial crisis looming, and the demand for food in Zimbabwe and elsewhere, this is an opportunity for us. We want you to create jobs for people.
I would like to find out from the new hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, who are talking about white farmers coming into this country to get our virgin land, whether they are going to put a law for all of them to grow maize. Otherwise, they will start growing flowers.
Mr Muntanga: Like tobacco.
Mr Hamududu: Flowers for what?
Madam Speaker, we must first address the issues of the stomach then export flowers later. There is no guarantee that these white farmers you want to invite to come and take huge tracks of land will grow maize. The solution here lies in empowering our small-scale farmers.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: Do not take the incentives to the white farmers. Further, you must define in this House which piece of land you will give to the white farmers. Do you want our children to rise like in Zimbabwe?
Mr Muntanga: It is going to happen.
Mr Hamududu: The Zimbabwean problem has been created by the western world.
Hon. Opposition: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: In this country, during the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era, at the end of the 1980s, when Dr Kaunda decided to grow the economy from our local resources, it grew industrially.
Major Chizhyuka: In leaps and bounds.
Mr Hamududu: The International Monetary Fund (IMF), which likes praising you, hon. Ministers, is the one which brought the western world revolution. That revolution which brought this MMD was fake. The UNIP Government had started producing goods in local industries. We were drinking tarino, and not this fake fanta which is giving you diabetes on a daily basis.
Laughter
Mr Hamududu: We had the Kafue Textiles and now you want change, not knowing that the revolution was sponsored by the Washington Consensus Agenda to privatise everything. Today, they are nationalising their banks.
Hon. Opposition Member: Quality!
Mr Hamududu: We must do it the way we know it. The MMD Government, or whatever you call yourselves, must acquit itself from the history of the MMD. This is why in my area, people do not just vote anyhow. They want someone with a clean track record. In America, they trace how one voted in the Senate. Even if you jump like a yo-yo, from one party to the other, they will look at your track record as a person.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You are using unparliamentary words.
Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, I withdraw.
Mr V. Mwale: Withdraw yourself to your seat.
Mr Hamududu: We must track your personal records. Otherwise people will be forming parties and jumping from one party to the other and later on point fingers at the rubbish they created. In this Government, you must acquit yourselves. The Government of His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Banda must acquit itself, lest you be judged harshly within a few years. I want these hon. Ministers to stand side by side with their president. Some of you have cold feet. You must quit if you cannot do the job. Go and shake up your ministries to deliver. Do not betray your president. Stand by him in these difficult times. The global financial crisis will hit us very badly. Therefore stand shoulder to shoulder with your president. All the betrayers must be chased. Our people in rural areas are suffering. You must learn a little from what the UPND is saying. The UPND, led Hakainde Hichilema, are saying that you should give free inputs to the farmers for the next three years so that they can build capacity.
Hon. MMD Members: Aah!
Mr Hamududu: We need jumpstart our agricultural sector. It is completely destroyed. Learn a few things from us, the UPND. By the time we come to power in 2011, we will have an easy time because we are definitely coming into power.
Madam Speaker, the method of disbursing the inputs through this Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) is also wrong. These co-operatives comprising a man, his wife and in-laws getting the same package is fake. We must change the mode of distributing fertiliser. The co-operative movement is failing. The Farmers Association has become a conduit for officers and these co-operatives to steal fertiliser. It is very simple. Let us register our farmers so that it is easy for them to get seed and fertiliser from the sheds. At the moment, the co-operatives have been messed up.
People are forming co-operatives with their families and conniving with the District Agriculture Co-ordinating Officers (DACOs) to get fertiliser. They are giving fifteen packs per group. I went to my constituency at the weekend and found over fifty people being given fifteen packs. I did not want to see this DACO. All the co-operatives were being given the same package, regardless of the number of members. I would like to appeal to Hon. Chituwo, through you, Madam, that the mode of distribution of these inputs under the FSP is wrong. These co-operatives and associations are not doing the work correctly. Let us register our farmers and each one must have an Identity Card so that when they go to apply for whatever package, they can get it and have their name entered into the data base. We are in the computer age.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! There is only one person speaking.
Mr Hamududu: We would also like two modes of distribution. There are some poor farmers who have some little money after having sold their goat or cattle, and would like to buy fertiliser at the subsidised price. They must be given another window where they can go and buy seed for K50,000 and plant rather than standing around in Monze wasting productive time and losing out on the prime planting season. I would like to tell you, Madam, that already, this year, we have messed up. We have already messed up because we have lost the key period in which to plant and if we do not plant in the next one week, we are going to import maize from Malawi, a very small country.
Madam Speaker, the Malawian Government has given handsome incentives to the farmers. This is the reason Malawi has plenty of maize. It is a very simple thing to do.
Madam Speaker, I have read in the papers that some donors are insinuating that we must do away with subsidies. They also have agents in some ministries and most of them are directors. They are busy saying that we do not need subsidies, and yet in Europe and America, they have made subsidies permanent. You should tell them that the Zambian people have refused.
Madam Speaker, at the moment, the World Trade Organisation talks on the issue of subsidies have broken down. The Europeans do not want to remove subsidies, but instead, they are telling us to remove subsidies so that they give us aid. What aid are they talking about?
The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning must be very careful with the people who are busy sponsoring our graduates from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to go to America. When they get there, they decide to reach the World Bank and the IMF and get corrupted. Thereafter, they come here and give wrong advice which is not in line with our aspirations. You should tell these donors that we will keep the subsidy and we shall increase it. We shall extend it to cassava, rice and everywhere, including the small-scale fishermen. We shall do that because they are doing it heavily.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: Therefore, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should be careful with some foreigners because if you think this is good then you will be selling your country. Do not become unpopular to Zambians by being a friend of foreigners. Then, you are an agent of neo liberal policies. These people are advanced. We want you to be popular among the Zambian people and not among the donors because they are saying this is the best hon. Minister. It is us Zambians who must say that.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: My former lecturer, Dr Musokotwane, I would like you to make a difference. I know that you have been with the World Bank for a long time, but you should listen to us because we are the people on the ground. We are the Zambians, ndiswe bana ba chisi, we are the children of this shrine.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: Therefore, if you cannot work for us, throw in the towel. We will put another person.
Laughter
Mr Hamududu: You should work for the people.
Finally, I would like to say that Hon. Members of Parliament must get involved in the planning process in districts and sit as observers as they make guidelines for the distribution of inputs. Most of these civil servants are the culprits. They do not want us hon. Members of Parliament because we know more and we talk for our people. Therefore, we must sit there as observers. If anything, we must get fully involved. They have messed up the cattle industry and everything. These are agents of the enemy.
Madam Speaker, we want enough food in this country because I believe this is very simple and possible.
Madam Speaker, with these few words, I want to thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Before I call upon another hon. Member to debate the motion, I would like to remind the hon. Members to bear in mind that we are working within a very short time. Therefore, if another hon. Member chooses to take twenty minutes on the Floor, he or she may end up being the only one to debate. Remember that we have time within which we have to conclude this motion. Therefore, I request that you stick to the motion, make your point, be brief, precise and that is it.
Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Madam Speaker, I am very grateful for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this motion.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Yes, we need to go back and work with our people. We need to go back and assess what we have done this year.
Madam Speaker, I would like to take my brother’s debate on the issue of the Fertiliser Support Programme as my own. Having said that, I will not waste time to talk about what has already been said. I will go straight into the issue of our brothers and sisters who are suffering in Sichifulo.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, it is very disheartening to see the Government of the day to keeping quiet when out brothers and sisters have not homes and have no fields to plough. They do not have medical facilities and no schools for their 421 children, and yet we have a Government which claims to be a legitimate Government.
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the presidents for UPND and Heritage Party respectively, for conceding defeat.
Hon. PF Members: Aah!
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, while they concede defeat, I would also like to concede defeat as an independent Member of Parliament …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: …for the sake of peace.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I will not concede defeat with regard to the people of Sichifulo.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: I will not sit down and see my brothers and sisters dying without homes and medical facilities. This Government was rejected by the urban majority. The rural people put you in Government, today. Why should you now turn your back against the rural population and close your ear to the people of Sichifulo. Why should you turn a blind eye on the people of Sichifulo? Those people have been there as far as 1985. No wonder one speaker yesterday said that assurances made in 1986 should be treated as ghost assurances because you have failed to sort out some of these problems.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I was in Sichifulo last weekend and what I saw there was disheartening. I wonder why you should be showing what is happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) on the national television …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! It is very tempting to open up debate on many issues. You should be brief in making your point on the adjournment. Support the motion. That is what we are supposed to do. It is either you support or reject it if you do not want to extend our working time. You may continue, please.
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I strongly support the motion. In support of this motion, I am saying that we have 8,500 farmers who are supposed to be assisted. As we go back, we need to work with the farmers since some of us are farmers. It does not look good to see my brothers and sisters without homes. I am simply emphasizing that it is inhuman to show us what is happening in the DRC where our brothers and sisters are running away from any vehicles they see around.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, this Government should find an alternative to assisting the people in Sichifulo area. I have already mentioned that I will not concede defeat with regard to the people of Sichifulo.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: I will never do that. I promise to sort out the people who are behind the Sichifulo issue.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is here to debate and bring out issues, and not to sort people out. Can the hon. Member debate without threatening anybody.
Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, 8,500 people have been displace by the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA). We will make sure that the culprits are brought to book.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Speaker, we support the motion of adjournment. However, we would like to put on record things that should be done during this recess.
Madam, Speaker, the former hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has realised that his people are suffering. We should not allow civil servants who have been paid, to have access to the Fertiliser Support Programme. I would like to see hon. Ministers spend more time in their offices. We will go and defend our people.
We agreed with the Hon. Minister for Southern Province when he spoke about lobbying. Lobbying includes supporting the people in Sichifulo area. Lobbying means that we need land. The Hon. Minister must lead the way since he is a former freedom fighter. He should ensure that people are not displaced.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: It is the people who fought for independence who also fought for this land. Whenever you notice that people are being deprived of land, you must stand up and defend them.
Madam Speaker, I would like to caution this Government that if it does not handle the issue of land properly, this country will end up like Zimbabwe. People will move on to other people’s farms illegally. They will repossess farms and live on those farms. Why should this Government prefer animals to occupy land than people? Why should this Government behave that way?
Major Chizhyuka: Hyenas!
Mr Muntanga: Your Director-General of ZAWA has a heart of a beast.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: He is a beast!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Definitely, that is unacceptable! You withdraw that phrase and use the correct one. There is nobody born with a heart of a beast.
Major Chizhyuka: The 8,500 people are suffering!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the phrase “a heart of a beast” and replace it with the word …
Major Chizhyuka: He is heartless!
Mr Muntanga: …. heartless. When this man went to inspect the Sichifulo area, he beat up women and destroyed their homes and dip tanks. He later visited an area in Sichifulo which is not occupied by people and came back to Lusaka to report that there were no people living there. We know that you want white people to set up game ranches there.
Hon. UPND Member: With some politicians!
Mr Muntanga: We are aware that people in Malambo are living with animals. Why should Sichifulo be a different case? Is it alright for a chief to chase people he does not like in his chiefdom? That is regionalism and ...
Major Chizhyuka: Regionalism!
Mr Muntanga: … nepotism. Why? Freedom fighters should not practice nepotism.
We are talking about the availability of land for farming. These people did not scramble for the Fertiliser Support Programme.
Major Chizhyuka: They do not need it!
Mr Muntanga: The Fertiliser Support Programme is only for 200,000 people, and yet there are over a million farmers. We are trying to disarm the people who do not need to fight for the Fertiliser Support Programme. They are now moving into my constituency, Mawaya Compound, scrambling with people who have nowhere to live. Why should this Government behave this way? You must listen. I believe that some of the people in this Government do listen and take action.
Hon. Member: Yes!
Mr Muntanga: I do believe you listen. When I raised a question about the displacement of the people in Sichifulo in this House, the Vice-President said he needed more information. I gave him more information and gave the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources the same information. How do you send the author of a letter to go and investigate whether there were people living in Sichifulo area? What will he report to you? He will tell you that he has cleared everyone. People are complaining that you have moved them from where they were able to farm and are now squatting by the river banks. This is a serious matter.
Mr Kasongo: And they are indigenous Zambians!
Mr Muntanga: These are indigenous Zambians regardless of whether they came from Chief Mukuni’s area or wherever. If we allow chiefs to begin choosing people they want to live with, tomorrow we shall have people who want to settle in Chisamba area chased. The people who were displaced when the dam was being constructed are now in Sikongo. If Chief Sikongo does not want displaced people in his area, I can see a bad seed in this Government if you do not support these people. Listen to the displaced Tongas. It is allowed to have people living with animals in a game management area. Do not deceive people by saying those are criminals. That is a lie. I am challenging the Provincial Minister to visit Sichifulo when the House adjourns.
Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!
Hon. UPND Members: Tomorrow!
Mr Nkombo: Bonse aba!
Mr Muntanga: Then I will show you which dip tanks and houses were destroyed. We are in the rainy season and people are suffering. You must show humanity and not prefer certain groups of people. We are challenging you, hon. Minister, to visit the area. When we get our allowances, we are ready to put fuel in my vehicle so that we can visit the area together. I am also challenging the Leader of Government Business to visit the area.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: This idea of ignoring the people who are suffering is causing trouble because you are listening from one person who tells you that there are no people, …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Address the Chair!
Mr Muntanga: … and yet that person failed to go to Sichifulo.
Major Chizhyuka: And he is a foreigner!
Mr Muntanga: Saiwana was removed as Director-General, but you have reappointed him. He sent some game scouts who were beating up people in the area. There is an area known as Dingi where women were raped.
Major Chizhyuka: They were raping women!
Mr Muntanga: You are so good at sending soldiers to DRC instead of sending soldiers to Sichifulo …
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member debating should stick to what is acceptable within our laws and policies. Do not demand things that are outside what is acceptable.
Mr Muntanga: … to provide security, Madam Speaker. These people …
Mr Kaingu: On a point of order.
Hon. Opposition Members: Sit down!
Mr Muntanga: … are actually suffering …
Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Interruptions
Mr Muntanga: It is not a joke!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Kaingu: You are the one who is joking.
Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo in order to debate in the manner he is debating without referring to hon. Musokotwane who asked me to remove the people from the area he is talking about.
Hon. UPND Member: No!
Mr Kaingu: Is he in order to debate the way he is debating without referring to the chiefs who actually asked me to have those people removed? Is he in order?
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The point of order is urging the hon. Member to mention who has been involved in the process of removing the people from Sichifulo. The Chair believes the hon. Member is drawing in a lot of people which is not the correct way of doing things. It is important to talk about the issues rather than bringing in individuals who will not stand here to defend themselves because they have their own opinions and reasons.
So, can you debate the issue and be mindful of time. Do not make your point several times over.
Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The people were removed by the Director-General who was representing the Government. Hon. Musokotwane informed us about this. At the moment, Madam Speaker, people are in my office …
Madam Deputy Speaker: I have already ruled on that point so, please, debate other issues?
Mr Muntanga: We need to save the people that need land. We should know that people are allowed to live in game management areas. Some people may have land in the Southern Province, but cannot have land in their districts of origin because they are squatters in the Southern Province.
For example, you can be a Member of Parliament in Mwandi, but cannot own the land you own in Choma. You cannot support the displacement of people in the Southern Province, and yet you are squatting in the Southern Province yourself.
The land issue in the Southern Province is crucial. The pressure on land …
Interruptions
Mr Muntanga: … cannot be ignored anymore. For example, if, as a Member of Parliament, I tell the Government to go and kill the people in Kalomo, the Government should not do that. The Government should be able to tell what is right or wrong. At the end of the day, when a wrong decision is made, the blame is on the Government. All of us in Government will be accused of ignoring the cry of the people. For this reason, we are saying when the House adjourns, and I am happy with the point of order raised by the former hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, we will focus on him as a person who has authorised …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, you have gotten a little personal on this issue. You had better debate rationally by looking at the issues. You cannot threaten an individual on this matter. You have stated how you regard that issue as that for the Government, but at the same time you are moving out to look at individuals. Could you kindly wind up your debate?
Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I am pleased that they have heard and looking at the Leader of Government Business in the House whom I consider to be a serious-minded person, I am sure that when we adjourn, most of us will address these issues. As we go out as hon. Members, we will listen to these people and all of us shall have the responsibility to solve this problem.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
The Deputy Minister for Copperbelt (Mr Mbulakulima): Madam Speaker, I stand to support the motion before us. As you are aware, Madam Speaker, I rarely stand to contribute to debates, but when I stand to do so, there is a valid reason for it.
Madam Speaker, there are two people who rarely stand to contribute to debates and that is my old colleague the hon. Member for Mbala (Mr G. Sichilima), …
Laughter
Mr Mbulakulima: … a man with many portfolios and I. He rarely stands because he does not want to be a jack of all trades, but a master of none at the end of the day.
Madam Speaker, during this session, two things struck my mind and I thought, as we go on recess, it is time to reflect on some of these issues. The first is the conduct of hon. Members of Parliament. I thought it was necessary to reflect on what has been our conduct during this period and indeed, the time to come ahead of us.
Madam Speaker, before I came to this House, I used to think that the behaviour of hon. Members of Parliament was exemplary and that this was a House of integrity but alas, that does not seem to be the case. I am concerned that people can go to small radio and television stations to lower the standards of the House. Today, we rarely move with our heads up because we are disgracing ourselves. This House should take a firm stance where our behaviour is regulated. We should not be discussing our conditions of service anyhow and anywhere. This is not good and as hon. Members, we need to reflect on that.
Madam Speaker, it is time for us to go and reflect on that so that we can change and change for the better. In the olden days, I want to believe that even the newspapers used to be summoned if they went beyond and that included even hon. Members of Parliament and so it is my sincere hope that the Standing Orders …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Minister, debate the Motion because you will end up debating yourselves, again.
Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, secondly, I would like to thank the Chairperson of the Parliamentary Committee on Information and Broadcasting. I thought it is a lesson for the newspapers in this country to have a reflection too. It has been debated that if they do not report accurately, they can bring confusion in this country. I would like to specifically mention The Post newspaper. If they have been hammered from the left, right and centre, I would like to give them wise counsel that they need to reflect on this because whatever was discussed about the Bill came up in 2002 and some hon. Members were not in the House then.
Madam Speaker, all of us cannot be wrong to condemn what is going on. For example, Madam Speaker, The Post is on record as having said that they were part of the change in 1990, 1991 and 1992 and today, we see the same newspaper embracing Dr Kaunda. For me, this is a reflection that some of the things that they might have written during that time was not accurate and was not good.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Interruptions
Mr Mbulakulima: They have put on record the fact that they were part of the change because of their contribution, but today, we have seen that some of the people criticised then have embraced the newspaper. So it is a lesson that some of the things that they might have written that time could not have been accurate. Madam Speaker, from 1990 to 1993, if anyone had stood up to say, “let us kill Dr Kaunda” we would all have agreed and if we did that …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You are going to extremes.
Interruptions
Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, the other point I am driving at is …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not drive the point I have ruled on. Can the hon. Member move on?
Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, the other point I would like to raise is that if there were organisations or people who made the life of the late President Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, President difficult, it was The Post newspaper, but later they turned round and saw that the man meant well. When we said the man had a real vision, called boot lickers and job seekers. People have now appreciated that we mean well. It is important that we reflect on such matters without emotion and all the media houses must reflect on what they are doing. How come we do not attack the lawyers, accountants or any other organisations, but only media houses? Madam Speaker, I thought I should put this on record.
Finally, I would like to assure my colleagues in my province, the Copperbelt, that with my reappointment, we shall continue pursuing the same route that we have been pursuing. I stand ready to work with you on the issue of development.
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Hear, hear!
Mr Mbulakulima: I am aware that on the Copperbelt, we have big people with big ideas, some of whom have contributed equipment or materials worth K9 billion and because they know the procedures, they have even invited the Government to work with them and we have responded. We want to have the linkages and the network.
Madam Speaker, my provincial administration stands ready to work with anyone as far as development is concerned. I am aware that we have issues at hand and as we go on recess, we need to be united and make the lives of the people better. I also want to warn the small people with small minds and small projects that they will not succeed. Those hidden projects which they want to implement without going through my provincial administration will not go anywhere. After all if they are intelligent, it is high time they changed the approach to implementing projects. When one’s door is closed, others are opened. We are not idle, our eyes are open and for those who do not mean well, years are running. I stand ready to work with them.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! If you do not know the procedure, do not argue with the Chair.
The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this motion. I am grateful to Hon. Hamududu and I just want to assure him that the Government is keen on ensuring that our programme on agriculture continues to deepen. That is why the Government is keen on introducing extension services to improve the situation. I would also like to thank him for the issues he raised regarding the global financial calamity, credit crunch and raging world food shortages. These are issues that the Government is aware of and will continue to work on.
Madam Speaker, on the issue of Sichifulo, my advice is that we should not be splitting hairs on an issue that we can resolve as Members of one family. We certainly have to refrain from using bloodcurdling language.
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all hon. Members and assure them that on the issue of Sichifulo, I have asked the Provincial Minister, Hon. Munkombwe, to give us a report so that we can have an amicable solution to the problem.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Question put and agreed.
REPORT ON THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE
Mr B. Y. Mwila (Nchelenge): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, that this House do adopt the report of the Public Accounts Committee, on the Report of the Auditor-General for 2006, on the accounts of parastatal bodies, for the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 24th November, 2008.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the motion seconded?
Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): I beg to second, Madam Speaker.
Mr B. Y. Mwila: Madam Speaker, your Committee, in the line with their terms of reference, as specified in the Standing Orders, considered the Report of the Auditor-General for 2006 on the accounts of parastatal bodies.
Once more, I wish to commend the Auditor-General for the efforts her office continues to make in promoting accountability and transparency in the public service. Three years ago, the Auditor-General was auditing, on average, about six parastatals annually. Currently, she is able to audit up to sixteen institutions. This is how it should be, and the office can do even better.
Madam Speaker, I have indicated that sixteen institutions were audited. These included institutions that are autonomous and can stand on their own with minimal Government intervention. Others need the Government’s assistance for them to operate, although, with a little more innovation, they can reduce their dependence on the Government, but institutions under the Ministry of Health can virtually not survive without the Government’s assistance.
Madam Speaker, the Government holds shares in parastatal companies through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. However, for administrative purposes, most parastatal companies are supervised by line ministries. Out of the sixteen institutions that were audited, only three are directly supervised by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and these are:
(i) Zambia National Building Society;
(ii) Zambia National Tender Board; and
(iii) Mulungushi Village Complex.
Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that there were relatively fewer irregularities in these institutions than those that are under the supervision of other ministries. Even then, the operations of parastatal companies and quasi-Government institutions leave much to be desired.
Madam Speaker, your Committee are of the opinion that the poor operations of these institutions are due to poor management, weak supervision by the parent ministries and under capitalisation. Under the current arrangement, the Government, through the various ministries, appoint commissioners, councils and boards of directors to superintend over the affairs of these institutions. However, as will be noticed from the report, controlling officers and management of the various institutions partly attributed the irregularities to the absence of councils and boards. Examples were the University of Zambia, the Copperbelt University and the Examinations Council of Zambia. At the time of considering submissions, the Mulungushi Village Complex and the Zambia Flying Doctor Service had no boards of directors in place.
The result of the above is that these institutions are not preparing their financial statements and annual reports for submission to this august House. This is not only contrary to good Governance principles, but also to the laws under which the various institutions were established. Among the various institutions that are lagging behind in preparing financial statements are the two public universities. Madam Speaker, this puts us in a very awkward situation, because on one hand we would like the Government to adequately fund the universities, but on the other the little funds that are released are not accounted for. Between 2003 and 2006, the Copperbelt University received K74 billion while the University of Zambia received K263 billion between 2002 and 2006. These huge sums remained unaccounted for.
Madam Speaker, failure to have in place audited financial statements, resulted in the Auditor-General failing to ascertain the financial position and performance of seven of the sixteen institutions that were audited. On our part as legislators, it is difficult to assess the stewardship of management teams in these institutions in the absence of financial statements and annual reports.
Your Committee, Madam Speaker, is recommending the immediate creation of a unit in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning that will be monitoring the operations of parastatals and other quasi-Government institutions on the financial side. Your Committee have further recommended that chief executive officers of all parastatal companies and quasi-Government organisations such as:
(i) Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company;
(ii) Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation or ZAFFICO;
(iii) ZESCO Limited; and
(iv) Zambia National Building Society should all fall under that category.
All these companies recorded losses during the period under review.
Madam Speaker, the above scenario does not present a strong case on why these institutions should continue being under Government control. Therefore, to justify continued state ownership, the Government needs to come up with workable strategies that will see operations improve in these institutions.
Madam Speaker, the easy way out is to increase the tariffs and fees that the various institutions charge for their services. However, this should not be taken as the sole strategy, as services have to be affordable to the majority of Zambians.
Madam Speaker, the popular argument that is advanced on tariffs and fees is that the charges for the provision of services in Zambia are very low. For example, the charge for electricity in Zambia is 3.7 United States cents per kilowatt hour for domestic users while the regional average is 8.1 United States cents per kilowatt hour. However, the income levels of Zambians are equally low. Therefore, the question of affordability is a major factor in this case.
Mr Speaker, your Committee is alive to the fact that low tariffs, particularly in the electricity sub sector, may not attract private investment. This is the more reason your Committee are of the view that tariffs and fees adjustment should not be taken as the main course of action, but other strategies such as cost reduction and enhanced revenue collection through installation of prepaid metres should be implemented concurrently.
Madam Speaker, I wish to conclude by thanking you and the Office of the Clerk for the guidance and support you rendered to your Committee during their deliberations. I further wish to thank all controlling officers and chief executive officers of the institutions that were audited for their co-operation.
Finally, I wish to acknowledge and show appreciation for the advice that was rendered to your Committee by the officers from the Offices of the Auditor-General and the Accountant-General respectively.
With these remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Sing’ombe: Quality!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Mr V. Mwale: Now, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker, I beg to second the motion urging this House to adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General for 2006 on the Accounts of Parastatal Bodies.
The Acting Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee has highlighted the major findings of your Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General on Accounts Parastatal Bodies and the subsequent replies from the controlling officers and management teams of the various institutions.
Madam Speaker, I wish to confine my discussion to three institutions:
Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC)
Madam Speaker, ZNBC recorded losses in the period 2002 to 2006 as will be observed in the report. A close look at the income statement shows that the institution has been incurring huge administrative expenses. This, on average, has been above 80 per cent of the total expenses which include programme expenses, advertising promotion expenses and other operating expenses.
The corporation recorded an impressive 175 per cent increase in sales income from 2002 to 2008 which was further boosted by the introduction of the television licence fees. However, this was negated by the 232 per cent increase in costs mainly administrative. Therefore, there is an urgent need for the board and management of the institution to reduce administrative expenses.
Your Committee are impressed with the increase in the corporation’s investment in Multichoice Zambia from 33 to 49 per cent. This is indeed commendable. ZNBC is a viable public undertaking. However, the Government needs to assist the institution in terms of public perception. It is viewed in a negative sense as a propaganda tool for the Government. This can have serious consequences on its ability to attract business.
If the Government is serious about its intentions to let the institution run profitably and stand on its own then the institution should be left to operate in a professional manner.
Water Utility Companies
Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing spearheaded a programme that led to the creation of water utility companies such a Kafubu, Nkana, Lukanga, Mulonga and Southern Water and Sewerage Companies to name but a few.
The audit only covered one company, which is Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company. However, I would like to believe that the problems that this company is facing are similar to the other companies. Therefore, I will speak in general terms on these companies.
These companies are facing very challenging operational problems owing to the age of the infrastructure that they inherited from the local authorities. Whilst some of them, at inception, received some seed capital, courtesy of the co-operating partners, others such as Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company did not. This has forced the companies to be financing infrastructure rehabilitation from their operational income as the shareholders, who are local councils, do not have the capacity to inject any fresh capital in these companies. The state of our local authorities is an open secret.
Although the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has been providing grants to the water utility companies, this is way below what the companies require. Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company, for example, was given K1 billion in 2007. However, it could only apply the amount on rehabilitating part of the sewerage infrastructure.
There is a need for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, in conjunction with the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, to source capital funds for these companies if they have to realise their intended objectives.
Other than just providing capital, the Government should also be assisting the companies by settling the water bills. According to Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company, between 12 to 16 per cent of the customers default on payment and these are mainly Government institutions.
Zambia National Building Society
Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing told this august House at the beginning of this year that Zambia faces a deficit of housing units for 1.5 million people.
Against this background, it is inconceivable that the Government has allowed the Zambia National Building Society to be literally limping operating with a negative working capital of K43 billion. Your Committee appreciates the Government’s injection of K30 billion, of which K25 billion has already been released into the society.
Madam Speaker, the Zambia National Building Society is a key institution that should assist the country to address the serious housing deficit. Therefore, the Government, as the sole shareholder, should recapitalise this institution.
Your Committee were comfortable with the enthusiasm displayed by the management team in their quest to turn around the institution. From the unaudited accounts for 2007, the institution recorded a surplus after tax of K5 billion. The Government will do well to put money where tangible results will be seen and appreciated.
Madam Speaker, let me conclude by stating that it was an honour and privilege for me to serve as member of your Public Accounts Committee in the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly. We cherish your wise counsel.
With these remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.
The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! In suspending business, I would like to inform hon. Members that you are going out for one and half hours. 1430 hours, the House resumes.
Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.{mospagebreak}
[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to express my support for this report of the Public Accounts Committee in as far as it relates to the general management of our meager resources as a nation, and in particular, later on, as it relates to the Zambia Forestation Forestry Industrial corporation (ZAFFICO).
To start with, allow me to say that as Members of Parliament, we have an oversight role on the resources of the country. I remember that our late President wrote to all of us to ensure that we provide that oversight on the projects in our constituencies. Unfortunately, it always happens that when we come to this House, we bring reports as though we are absent from our constituencies. I would like to urge hon. Members of this House to do more to ensure that when they are in their constituencies, they are recognised as overseers.
In this regard, permit me to also mention that the Fertiliser Support Programme that the Government is providing requires the support of hon. Members of Parliament. We hear that some of this fertiliser finds itself on the market, and yet it is subsidised at a great expense by the Government. Therefore, hon. Members must ensure that this fertiliser goes to the intended beneficiaries.
Madam Speaker, on page 90 of the report it is stated that ZAFFICO is struggling financially and I would like to report that we are doing everything possible to consult within ourselves as a Government so that the idle loan which was obtained in 1984 can be removed from the books of ZAFFICO so as to make it viable to approach financial institutions and borrow commercially.
Madam Speaker, the other problem that ZAFFICO and; indeed, the Government face with the implementation of the Forestry Act is the encroachment. We noticed that both local and national forests are encroached on and in most cases, with the full knowledge of Members of Parliament.
Allow me, also, at this stage, to make reference to the Game Management Areas (GMAs). Under the law, the GMs and forests are managed through a plan. It is sad that although the Government is trying very hard to find alternative means of raising revenue, this effort is undermined sometimes by ourselves as politicians and we do so in the case of game management areas and especially with reference to Sichifulo, purely for political expedience.
Madam Speaker, this is a Government and it must enforce laws. When laws are enacted by this House, they must be enforced by the Government and I would like to state that any hon. Member of Parliament who is going to incite lawlessness and anarchy, whether in a game management area or indeed, in a forest, will be visited by the law.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: As a Government, we want to serve the people who we represent. Year in and year out, Members of Parliament come to this House to bemoan the poverty levels and this Government is trying very hard to raise resources through game management areas and forests, and yet the same Members of Parliament will turn round and cause anarchy. Madam Speaker, this Government will not fear their size or, indeed, where they come from.
Interruptions
Ms Namugala: This Government will not be intimidated. We hear of people calling other people tribalists, and yet some of these people have come to this House through tribalism, which is sad indeed. We are talking about national issues and the management of resources for the benefit of our people, future generations and our own benefit.
Madam Speaker, this Government, for the three years that it is still in power, is going to do its best to ensure that the law is obeyed.
With these few words, I beg to move.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very important report.
Madam I promise that I will spend only the time that is necessary for me to deliver my point.
Yesterday, when I spoke on a report from this same Committee, I called for forensic and performance audits, but I said that it is very important for this Government to provide sufficient capacity and the legal framework within which the Auditor-General will conduct value for money audits, not only for Government institutions, but also for parastatals. What did I mean when I was saying value for money audits? What I meant was that the Auditor-General should be allowed to go out to see whether there has been prudent utilisation of public resources, efficient utilisation of public resources, has this utilisation of public resources had an incremental benefit on the people or has it had detrimental effects on the people? If it is found that the investment has a detrimental impact on the people then surely, the Auditor-General will report to us through the Public Accounts Committee that this was not a worthwhile venture and that people’s money was not adequately utilised.
Madam, allow me to refer to the matter that the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources referred to and which was debated very passionately by my colleagues from UPND and my colleague who is an independent Member. I could also see that the hon. Minister herself debated the matter with a lot of passion. It is expected that when you talk about human life, unless you have no heart, it must come from the bottom of your heart. You must feel it burning in you.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, Charles Darwin once said, and I quote:
“If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature but by the institution that we create, great is our sin.”
The people of Sichifulo are victims today not by law of nature, but by institutions created by this House.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Madam, I have followed the matter of Sichifulo and 8,500 people is a large proportion of our country and we cannot afford to trivialise that matter.
Mr Muntanga: Yes.
Mr Lubinda: Madam, those people might have gone to squat on a game management area. However, the question is we established institutions and elected people in Government so that they may resolve human/animal conflict when it arises. What has been the reason for sitting back for more than twenty-five years only to come and react now after people have even created graves for their grandfathers and after people have built permanent structures? Where was our listening Government? Where was ZAWA? Has it become an issue only today? The people have not gone into that area only today. They have been living there for more than twenty-five years, and yet year after year, they have received reports from ZAWA. Have they ever reported to us that there is a pending crisis in Sichifulo? This is the reason we in this House must resolve that we are going to ensure that our systems are meant to protect the vulnerable. It is a shame upon those who want to protect the rich at the expense of the poor and vulnerable.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: If you are worth being called a leader of the people, you will demonstrate it by showing that your heart goes out to the weak, the ones who cannot defend themselves. Once you defend the ones who cannot defend themselves, the rich and the powerful will defend themselves, but if you neglect those Sichifulo people, in essence, you are neglecting the vast majority of the Zambian people. I would like to appeal to the Committee on Public Accounts to ensure that they come back to this House next year and do whatever is within their means to ensure that they provide sufficient capacity for the Auditor-General to conduct performance audits so that they avoid such crises.
Madam, some have said that hon. Members of Parliament in their constituencies have a responsibility. Yes, we do and I am a living testimony to that and there is not a single person sitting here who does not know that they created a crisis for the 3,500 people in Mahopo. That matter has been debated on the Floor of this House ever since 2002. It is, therefore, not fair for anyone to say hon. Members of Parliament must follow up these matters. I have followed up. What has been the outcome? To date, the people are still pending evictions. I have to give credit to the former hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services. When I cried out loudly here, she was one of the two who came to me and said, “We want to assist you” and she was willing to go there and use the resources of the people to uplift the standard of living there …
Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: … but today, …
Mr Muntanga: What happened?
Mr Lubinda: … things have changed, Madam.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can you allow the hon. Member on the Floor to debate freely without your comments?
The hon. Member for Kabwata may continue, please.
Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam, financial audits without impact assessments are not good enough in this day and age. We ought to move there. For the Government to point fingers at individual hon. Members of Parliament and say that hon. Member of Parliament is the one who encouraged us to remove those people from there is not fair because hon. Members of Parliament ultimately are not responsible for the governance of this country.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: The ones who are charged with the responsibility are the ones, with courtesy of the Zambian people, are driving floods…
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: … and are using talk time to harass others like Mulongoti. They are the ones who are responsible for the governance in this country.
I would, therefore, like to end by saying that in the last sitting of this House …
Mr Mulongoti: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mulongoti: Madam, I am saddened by this development. Is the hon. Member who is debating so emotionally and pretending that he cares for the people in order to begin to talk about talk time instead of advancing a logical argument which the Government can adopt to address this issue?
Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member has heard the point of order. Will he consider that in his debate?
May you continue, please.
Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Madam. I promised that I will only take the time that is necessary.
Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: I would like to conclude by saying, please, my dear colleagues, you owe it to the Zambian people to provide for them hope for the future. Can you imagine the children who are traumatised in Sichifulo? Are you sure that they have hope for a future like your children? Ask yourselves that one question. Do they feel Zambian the same way that your children feel Zambian?
Hon. Opposition Member: No.
Mr Lubinda: What is it that this Government has done to ensure that the lives of those 8,500 displaced people are protected? To just leave them to the vulgarities of life is not fair at all. I would like to conclude by saying the reason our colleagues have the benefits that they have, courtesy of the Zambian people, is because they offered themselves to work for the people. When they do get free talk time, it is not for calling others to arrange tea parties. It is for the sake of finding out …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, let us avoid talking about your emoluments or anything to do with that in this House. It is not part of it. You are not going to be conclusive in that situation and, therefore, we risk giving half information to the nation and it can be very sad for this House.
The hon. Member may continue, please.
Mr Lubinda: I thank you for your guidance, Madam. Let me end by saying, please, my dear colleagues, those systems of government, the institutions of Government, the ministries and everything that go with those functions must be used for the betterment of the poor and protection of the people such as the ones in Sichifulo and only then, will you qualify for the positions that you hold.
I thank you, Madam.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Remember to debate the report.
Laughter
Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, the people of Sichifulo have been displaced because somebody used public funds so that the exercise could be carried out. ZAWA is a Government department. ZAWA officers spend weeks in Sichifulo drawing allowances. The fuel that was used was bought by the Government.
Madam Speaker, it is not acceptable for an hon. Minister responsible for people to stand in this House and not tell the truth because I was not here.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You were in the House. Argue your point.
Mrs Musokotwane. Thank you Madam Speaker. The hon. Minister was aware of this problem from the time he went to the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. Hon. Pande can bail me out because he also found it. I discussed with him as a human being and, at least, he did not lie to this House.
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I think this Sichifulo issue may simply turn this House into some court.
Mr Muntanga: There is no time.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
If there was a need for clarification, I think this House and the nation have heard about Sichifulo. Can we move on instead of responding to each other as if there is anybody who is going to make a judgment? Sooner than later, the other Members will also want to debate the Sichifulo issue.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: There is a rule in this House of tedious repetition. We cannot be listening to the same point through and through. The point has been made. The hon. Member will debate and move on with the report. In fact, the chair has allowed a lot of liberty on Sichifulo. Can we now move on with the report?
Hon. UPND Member: Sichifulo!
Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I hope this issue of Sichifulo is going to be sorted out from today, as I said earlier on, because it is public money which is being used.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You are guided.
Laughter
Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! No Sichifulo, please.
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: For either side of the House, Sichifulo has become a tedious repetition and will not be allowed. Any hon. Member from either side must debate the report which is the Public Accounts report on parastatal bodies.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, I am not going to talk about Sichifulo, but about the abuse of human rights occasioned by parastatal bodies in Zambia.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, every human being in this country is protected by law. The Constitution of Zambia confers basic human rights on Zambians. One of the rights that is conferred on Zambians is the right of protection by the State.
Hon. UPND Member: Hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: If the State fails to protect human rights and instead abuses human rights using parastatals, that is abuse of financial resources of this country.
As an hon. Member of Parliament, I will not stand idle and let parastatals abuse the human rights of our people in Zambia …
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: … and in particular, a certain area I will not mention.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: As an hon. Member of Parliament, I will stand by the people who are being abused.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: I will speak for …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! If hon. Members have not read the report, admit it so that we move on.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: You do not think that the Chair would sit here and fail to get your innuendos.
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: You cannot imagine that. The Chair has guided. We have a report with very specific information and that is what we ought to be looking at. If we do not debate the report, the Chair is free to conclude that we have accepted the report.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: You may continue with the report, please.
Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance. I would like to state that most parastatals in this country are not properly managed. This is due to a lack of knowledge and human feeling …
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: … on the part of certain managers.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: I would urge this Government to educate their managers to observe the rights of Zambians.
I thank you, Madam.
Laughter
The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Madam Speaker, I would like to take your guidance very seriously. Therefore, I will not talk about Sichifulo.
Madam Speaker, I would like to take what the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has said as mine. I also want to add a little more and say that laws are made in this House and it is our duty as we debate this report, as a Government, to help institutions which we create such as the Auditor-General’s Office and ZAWA …
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: … to play their roles. Madam Speaker, Game Management Areas are not …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I am sorry hon. Minister. We have to seriously refer …
Mr Kaingu: I am referring to the …
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You are not all chairing this House.
Mr Kaingu: I can also …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members: Order, order!
Mr Kaingu: You cannot call me a liar here.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I know that we have been in the House for a long time. I believe that politicians have one thing in common and that is to talk. That is why we are here in Parliament where we must talk. However, it is important that we debate orderly.
I will appeal to hon. Members that we follow the guidance of the House. I have said all of you are free to debate. However, we are looking at the report of the Public Accounts Committee. Whatever we say must relate to this from now on. When we have made a point on something we must move on.
Hon. Members, it is not a House of competition. All of you are politicians who are capable of talking. We will not compete on who says what. Make the point, refute it if you can and then move on so that we remain a united House and not a House of who speaks louder or better.
Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence. I have been called a liar in this House and I think I need to exculpate myself.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Madam Deputy Speaker: There is no exculpation in this House, unless you asked to do so by the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services. The hon. Members on my right are not on your left. Therefore, the responsibilities totally differ. I think the Chair has guided before in this House and I would like to repeat this kind of guidance. Generally, hon. Members on my left are not implementing any policy at all.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: That is why they speak to the right and to the left and all over.
Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
You hardly see the Chair correct them because she is not aware of their policies for this nation. However, hon. Members on my right are extremely focused and ought to articulate the policies of the Government in response to their wandering.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: That is the way we take things.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair takes it that the hon. Members on her right have a responsibility to explain to the left what they do not know and have no policy to defend to the nation. That is exactly the way we see this House. Therefore, hon. Members do not feel hurt, the Chair is here to protect all hon. Members. If any hon. Member is called any name, the Chair comes in to stop it. That is what the Chair is supposed to do. Hon. Minister, remember that you have a responsibility which you have to explain to the people. The hon. Members on my left have no policy. You may continue, please.
Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, with that guidance, I beg to move.
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this motion. From the onset, I would like to say that I will move away from what has been subject in the House and talk about what is contained in the report.
Madam, I spent so much time studying the report. I noticed that the sixteen parastatal companies that your Committee reported to this House have simple weaknesses.
Mr Lubinda: Unabelenga liti!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Firstly, I would like to talk about the inadequate accounting systems, lack of internal controls, lack of record keeping, misappropriation of funds, fraudulent activities and unclear tender procedures. These have been exhibited in all the sixteen parastatals that are in this report.
Madam Speaker, these are small issues that we must not even be debating about. We must begin to move forward and see how we can enhance accountability in this nation. If there is no accountability in this nation, we will talk and talk and achieve nothing. Who is going to benefit? We must ask ourselves who we are representing. Are we representing ourselves or parastatal companies?’ We must begin to look at what the core factor for these parastatals companies is. Why are these parastatal companies not benefiting the people? That is very critical. We must not dwell on trivial issues. We must begin to look at what the core functions of these parastatal companies are. Why were these parastatal companies established? Were they established to enable managers make money and not provide a service the purpose for which they were established? The answer is no.
Madam, the Government has a mechanism within itself to ensure that these parastatal companies operate effectively. We do not need to remind them in this House. It is shameful to be reminding them about this. This is because within their organisations, they have qualified people to ensure that issues such as loss of documents and poor record keeping are avoided. They have the ability to do that. I have no doubt, in my mind, that in any of these parastatal companies, there are qualified people who can arrest this issue. However, the question is, who is to blame? Is it the hon. Ministers or the people? It is the hon. Ministers? Why are they to blame? It is because they are superintendents of these organisations.
Madam Speaker, issues of parastatals bodies not having their financial accounts not audited for the last five years are unacceptable. On what basis are decisions made to release grants to these parastatal companies? What should happen is that, when somebody comes with a financial need, they must ask why a payment should be made? That is what a good manager must do. He should not act on impulse. It does not mean that if there is no fertiliser then you must act on impulse and make a grant to them. They must be able to explain how they utilised the money you gave them before you release the next funds. That is important.
Madam, with regard to the issues that we discus in this House, I urge the Government not to go far. Let us not even go far.
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Let us be simple.
Hon. Members: Tell us!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Let us just deal with simple things before we move forward. In other words, there must be accountability. First of all, let us ensure that our records are filed. When you buy fuel or talk time, ensure that you file your receipts then you can compare them with what was budgeted for and what is being spent? You will be able to see whether it is in agreement. If it is not, you must question the person responsible. Deal with simple things first before we move far.
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, when I was going through the report, I noticed a lot of issues regarding wasteful expenditure. I can only blame the people who are managing these institutions. This should not arise at all. If somebody is serious with what he is doing, this should not arise.
Madam, before I go on, let me highlight some few institutions that have been of great concern to me. I would like to comment on the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). In 2006, the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, …
Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: … may his soul rest in peace, issued a policy directive that no Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs) would be brought into this country. However, sadly, Page 18 of your Committee’s report shows that 3,000 metric tonnes of maize was imported from Nyiombo, which was worth K3,689,647,200 and 16,000 metric tonnes of maize was imported from Louis Dreyfus which cost K20,006,087,040. This is against what the President said. The question is, who is in charge? Why did they go against the policy that was formulated by His Excellency the President and brought in these GMOs? This Government told us that no one is eating GMOs. Who knows, may be I also eat them.
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Why are you silent on this issue? This is unacceptable. Someone must be answerable to why this is happening.
Madam Speaker, according to Page 14 of the Committee’s report, in 2005, there were errors in the printing of Grade 12 Certificates. In 2007, an amount of K146,777,670 was spent on replacing the certificates. What kind of legacy are we putting in to ensure that the educational system is also correct? The errors arose because pupils were awarded wrong grades. What kind of Government are you to make such an error. From 2005, you only came to rectify a mistake in 2007. What happened to those who went to university, college and those who did not? How fair are you to the educational system? These are things that are avoidable. That is why I call them simple things. I think we can do things correctly. When we speak, we do not do it to castigate you. We speak in order to remind you that these are just simple issues.
Madam Speaker, on Page 74 of your Committee’s report, you will notice that school fees for Zambians are very high. Sometimes, you can cry.
Hon. Members: Cry!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam, I wish I could cry, but let me just take some water instead.
Interruptions
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, we are failing to address simple things and this is very unfortunate.
Mr L. J. Mulenga took some water.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, when a student goes to pay for re-sitting school fees, these fees will not be accounted for correctly. We are talking about a higher institution that is teaching people how to account for things. What hope do we have that they will come and account for things correctly? What is our problem? Why can we not sit down together and find out where the problem is. As a nation, we need to start to move forward and make progress. Simple things such as these must be learnt. This issue must not even be discussed on the Floor of the House.
Madam Speaker, in 2006, between the receipts that were made against deposits, there is a variance of K180 million. In other words, receipts were over by K180 million. Even a Form 2 who is doing bookkeeping would see that anomaly. Why should we not get people with experience to do the job? What is the five years experience they put in the paper when advertising for? This does not make any sense to me. I am speaking as a Zambian and we should avoid these problems so that in future, when we are in the House, we can see how we can move the country forward. This will enable us look at more complicated macro issues and not micro issues that we are dealing with now.
Madam Speaker, if you go to Page 74 of your Committee’s report, you will find that about K1 billion was lost on just unauthorised cancellation of receipts between 2004 and 2007, and yet, year in and year out, the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Copperbelt University (CBU) riot. Can we afford to lose K1 billion? No, we cannot. I am only dwelling on simple issues so that you wake up and see how those people tell you lies.
Madam Speaker, the lease agreement of the main dining hall was done in 2000 with Silva Professional Catering services. Between 2000 and 2007, they paid nothing. They neither paid for water nor electricity and accumulated the figure to K294, 950,000 as outstanding and they are still operational. What is happening with that money? Do we have to tell you to go and collect that money? Is anyone running the institution willing to know about that? What is happening? Is that a way of pilfering money from the Government coffers? No, that is totally unacceptable. These are small and simple issues which not even management must know.
Hon. PF Member: They do not need a professor!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: You do not even need a professor for that. You just need an accounts clerk to sort this out. Let us love Zambia the way we nurse our babies in our homes.
Hon. Member: Finally!
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Not finally my friend!
Laughter
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, for instance, when you look at CBU, there were payments that were made. If you go to Page 7 of the Committee’s report, an advance payment was made to purchase goods, resulting in a K33,237,768 loss and these goods were from South Africa and these goods only arrived after twenty-three months. Who earned interest? Why were tender procedures not followed? There is no strategic plan on CBU and they are still working on it. That is incorrect.
Madam Speaker, finally, I would like to say that information is critical. It is like blood. If you have no blood in your body, you cannot function. For an institution to function, it must have information. If you are making decisions in the absence of information, you are doing injustice to yourself. You must make decisions based on accurate information.
One thing that I would like to find out from the Government is how they give grants to these institutions. On what basis do you give grants if institutions do not give you information on the accounts audited. They have had no accounts audited for the last three or five years. How then do you believe what they tell you?
Hon. Member: Point.
Mr L. J. Mulenga: I would like to ask the Government to wake up. Civil servants have taken you for a ride. They demonstrate and demand for money, which you give them, without accountability. Even if it comes after two or three years, what do you do with that? That is a archaic. We need to be affirmative and ensure that people are accountable for what they do and what they are paid for.
I thank you, Madam.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the motion. I will be very brief, centering on two issues. I want to talk about the boards and the people who appoint them.
Madam Speaker, how are board members appointed? What is the criterion used to appoint them. The report that has been circulated to every hon. Member has brought to the fore a number of irregularities. These irregularities are very sad.
Madam Speaker, if these parastatals have boards, what is the role of the boards? Boards are supposed to check what management of these institutions is doing. Surprisingly, some board members have become permanent employees of some of these companies. They have become executives in these institutions. The board chairmen have become the executive chairmen with offices in the respective institutions. Madam, Is that how it should be?
Madam Speaker, the people who have been given the responsibility to run these institutions are educated. Why, therefore, are they not able to abide by their own rules? Madam, I wonder why in a company claiming to be making losses, a managing director is able to borrow an amount of K2 billion. In the same company, another managing director is able to borrow K500 million. Where is the money coming from? Where is the board, because it should superintend over these people and ensure that what they are doing is in accordance with their mandate. However, in this country, it is free for all. Anyone can do whatever they please and those given the responsibility to run the affairs of this country just sit back and watch.
Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the Government that the time has now come for every coin that a company makes to be accounted for. We cannot allow people to do things as they please without worrying about what the outcome will be. It is, therefore, imperative that the Auditor-General’s Office is empowered. They have given us a very good report. However, what else can they do about it? Who is going to take up the challenge from now onwards, despite the debate that is going on here, to ensure that those who have been found wanting are brought to book. Everyone knows that they can do anything they like without being penalised because of the system we have in place.
Madam Speaker, the managers of these companies have a very important role to play in ensuring that the companies begin to make profits. How many of our major parastatal companies today are making profits? The Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL) and the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) are not making any profit. They are simply limping and the Government continues to pump in more money for them to survive. Why is that? There are companies that embark on three or five projects at a time and take ages to finish them. These companies still continue to enter into contracts and no one stops them.
Madam Speaker, I would not be wrong to say that some of the contracts are awarded because people have something to gain. For as long as they have something to gain, they will continue going into contracts even at the expense of the company and the country.
It is, therefore, incumbent upon the MMD Government to stop this rot because we cannot go on like this. This report is for some years back. I am sure that even the ones to come will bring to the fore the same issues and no one will do anything about it. Therefore, it is important that those who do not do things accordingly, are punished. After all, the law is made for the law breakers. If there were no law breakers, there would be no need for laws. If we do not effect the law that we make, we will not achieve that which we intend to.
Madam Speaker, therefore, in conclusion, I would like to say that the Zambian people are watching earnestly. When the time of reckoning comes, they will make a decision. Therefore, it is important for the MMD Government and the hon. Ministers who have been given the mandate to ensure that the people they put in these offices are accountable to the people of Zambia. We should not put people in offices because we know them or because we come from the same area, but because they are able to deliver on behalf of the Zambian people. This country is good because you can get a job as long you know somebody. That should stop because those who are not lucky and do not have anyone to speak for them will not get any jobs.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to debate this important motion. I will be very brief, especially that I am not feeling too well.
Madam Speaker, I would like to thank your Committee, through the Chairman, who is the mover, and also the seconder, who have done a good job of enlightening us on this side, on a number of issues. Having said so, I would like to start by commenting on just a few issues talked about by the various speakers on your left.
Madam Speaker, I feel sad that we tend to rush to this House and debate a number of issues, which, most of the times, are not factual, taking into account where we are coming from, as councillors and Members of Parliament, who are part of the works of the Government.
Madam Speaker, let me go back in history a little just about the time of independence, when we had a population of about four million people. That time, we saw a number of people rushing to come to work in towns such as Lusaka, which resulted in the creation of some of the compounds such as George.
George was a construction company, but it accommodated workers at the company site though they carried out other works within Lusaka. Since the politicians then did not put any measures in place to make the people go back to their villages of origin at the end of their contracts, most of them stayed on. I therefore, do not know who we can blame for this.
Madam Speaker, I would like to zero in on the present time when we are very good at campaigning and promising people a lot of things, including things as big as the elephant, but when it comes to the actual work, we are not seen to be doing the right thing for the betterment of our people.
Madam Speaker, like I have said many times before, I served in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing with the then hon. Minister Masebo. We wanted to upgrade Misisi compound by demolishing- for lack of a better term, some of the houses. It was the same politicians on your left who condemned us and went to the people to stop them from moving even when we had found a place to move them to called Chalala, today. Some of the hon. Members of Parliament, as Councillors, started sharing the plots and some of them got as many as twenty plots each which were meant for the people who were to move from Misisi Compound.
Madam Speaker, why should someone come in the name of hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata and talk about Mahopo, today, when he is actually part of that mess. The facts are that …
Mr Lubinda indicated.
Mr Sichilima: Ikala fye nauchita debate kale.
Laughter
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, when you look at Misisi and Mahopo, you will find that the owners of those structures do not even live there. They are living in other residential areas such as Kabulonga.
Mr Lubinda: On a point of Order, Madam.
Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I am humbled. Is the hon. Deputy Minister who is debating everything else except the report in order to impinge my character by stating that I am a beneficiary in Mahopo and Chalala without laying the facts on this Table. Is he in order? I seek a very serious ruling in this very serious matter which impinges my character.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Kabwata has raised a point of order that the hon. Deputy Minister has referred to him as a beneficiary of the plots in Chalala and Mahopo. As the hon. Deputy Minister clarifies his point, he should put that point of order into consideration.
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, I did not say that the hon. Member who has stood on a point of order is a beneficiary of the plots in Chalala.
Interruptions
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, when I referred to the plots in Chalala, I said that some of the hon. Members on your left were Councillors and benefited from the allocation of plots. I do not know that when we wanted to demolish Misisi Compound, the hon. Member for Kabwata was a beneficiary. If that is the case then he can indicate to us.
Interruptions
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, the point that I am referring to with regard to the report is that we need to change our mindset as Zambians and things that we say as politicians should stand the test of time.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, if I may refer to Kabwata, the houses were sold to sitting tenants and some of them are what we call single quarters. In Lusaka in particular, we have seen buildings coming up that have not be approved by the council while councillors are watching and they are not doing anything about it. This being the case, I take it that the building has been approved.
Madam Speaker, I do not know who is approving other than the committees of the council where some of the hon. Members on your left are councillors for some single quarters in those blocks which appear to be upstairs and some look like Marcopolo buses.
Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, when Kabwata was designed, I will use the example of the sewer system which was referred to yesterday in a similar report in which the system of drinking water somehow mixes with the sewer system, causing cholera, the system failed simply because it was planned to cater for fewer buildings. We have allowed people to start extending without taking this into consideration. Somebody will come up and blame the Government of the day. Where are the councillors today who cannot correct that mess? Let us be factual and realistic.
Madam Speaker, in Kabwata, this Government has done a lot of works. It is not in Kaputa or Mufumbwe, but in Lusaka where the roads have been rehabilitated. Much as the report brings out some of the anomalies, it will be gratifying to hear some hon. Members on your left to being thankful of what this Government has done.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Let me guide the hon. Deputy Minister though he is raising very important issues, it is on a wrong motion. Can you look at the report that is before the House and debate it.
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for your guidance. This report also talks about accountability and some people cannot even account for simple funeral grants donated by hon. Members of Parliament.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Laughter
Mr Sichilima: Madam Speaker, the report has told us some of the anomalies relating to UNZA. I talked about the need for change of mindset. It should start from us who are in this House. We must look at where we are coming from. If we do not change our mindset and have an organised manner of coming up with a proper management structure, we will always expect a manager to tell an office orderly to award a contract. Then we are going a wrong direction.
Madam Speaker, we are policy makers, but the implementers are out there. When we check on projects, it is our duty to remind the Government and the relevant wing will move in.
Madam Speaker, having served in the Ministry of Education, I would like to take away the blame. Who do we blame for the problems of the University of Zambia? Do I blame the officers at the institutions or the person giving the grants to that institution? This is why I am emphasising on the change of mindset. My appeal to hon. Members of Parliament is that we work together so that when we have a change of mindset people will not take issues personally. This report should not t end in the hands of the Government. People should also have access to it and see what is happening so that these anomalies are corrected in future.
Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Finance (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the mover and the seconder of this motion that has been discussed and debated so passionately this afternoon.
Madam Speaker, I would also like to thank the Auditor-General for this report which has been quite wide in its coverage. Having said that, I would like to repeat what I said yesterday and this is that we have had the benefits of this debates because the Government realises that the Office of the Auditor-General needs to be supported to the fullest account because this Government believes in openness and transparency.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: I also want to state that this support will continue in the coming years so that we continue to receive such extensive reports where nothing is swept under the carpet. Everything can come up so that we know what is happening to our parastatal companies.
In terms of the way forward, I would like to state that the Government will continue to implement the recommendations of the Auditor-General. This year, the Government has taken action in respect of two parastatal heads whose performance was unsatisfactory and had to be removed. This will continue to the case.
In a few months, the Government will be reviewing the structures of the boards so that action can be taken on the people who are not performing properly.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, as we move forward, we are going to continuously ask ourselves the relevance of certain parastatal companies. Perhaps we should consider those that we think are better off being private or having some element of private sector through partnership introduced so that in the end it is the Zambian public that benefits. If these parastatals are ran better, it is the Zambian people who are going to benefit because their jobs will be secure and such companies will be able to pay taxes. This Government says that the relevance of some of these institutions remaining purely under Government hands, will continue to be reviewed and where necessary, changes will be made.
In conclusion, once again, I would to thank everyone who has debated this motion. I am sure this goes towards ensuring that public assets in Zambia are properly managed so that we all benefit.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr B. Y. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, but I must point out that the first few speakers debated with a lot of emotion. They concentrated more on the issue of Sichifulo. Obviously, it is part of their right.
However, I must also thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha who debated very robustly and adequately and I must thank him for having brought out a lot of issues.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr B. Y. Mwila: I also wish to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Malole who brought out some pertinent issues in the report and hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala although his debate raised some controversy.
Laughter
Mr B. Y. Mwila: Let me also thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who has taken a very positive role in view of the fact that he has pledged to support the Auditor-General’s Office. As we appreciate the Auditor-General’s role, I think in this case, we should take a leaf from the hon. Minister’s admission that his role is not just to be defensive, but also to be positive.
Madam Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Quality!
Question put and agreed to.
ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE
The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.
Question put and agreed to.
________
The House adjourned accordingly at 1546 hours on Friday, 28th November, 2008, sine die.