Debates- Thursday, 22nd January, 2009

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Thursday, 22nd January, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Orders Numbers 151 and 157, the Standing Orders Committee has appointed the following hon. Members to serve on the following Sessional Committees during the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly:

1. Committee on Agriculture and Lands

Mr R. Muntanga, MP;
Mr B. M. Bwalya, MP;
Major C. K. Chibamba, MP;
Mr B. Hamusonde, MP;
Mrs A. C. K. Mwamba, MP;
Mr S. R. Mwapela, MP;
Mr M. J. C. Misapa, MP; and
Mr S. Katuka, MP

2. Committee on Education, Science and Technology

Mrs F. B. Sinyangwe, MP;
Mr W. C. Simuusa, MP
Mr M. J. C. Misapa, MP;
Mr E. M. Munaile, MP;
Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP;
Mr M. C. K. Mushili, MP;
Mr D. M. Syakalima, MP and
Mr M. M. Mabenga, MP.

3. Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism

Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP;
Mr P. P. Chanda, MP;
Mr A. Simama, MP;
Mr A. Mbewe, MP;
Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP;
Mr P. Sichamba, MP;
Mrs J. M. Limata, MP; and
Mr V. Mwale, MP.

4. Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs

Mr. P. Sichamba, MP;
Mr L. J. Ngoma, MP;
Mr B. K. Mweemba, MP;
Dr B. E. Chishya, MP;
Mr E. M. Munaile, MP;
Mr B. M. M. Ntundu, MP;
Mrs S. T. Masebo, MP; and
Ms M. M. Masiye, MP.

5. Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services

Mr M. Kapeya, MP;
Mr R. Muyanda, MP;
Mr G. M. Beene, MP;
Mr C. M. M. Silavwe, MP
Mrs J. C. Mumbi-Phiri, MP;
Mr D. Mwila, MP;
Dr G. L. Scott, MP; and
Mr M. Muteteka, MP.

6. Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs

Ms E. K. Chitika, MP;
Mr H. L. Imasiku, MP;
Mr C. W. Kakoma, MP;
Mr A. Sejani, MP;
Mr B. Sikazwe, MP;
Mr O. C. Chisala, MP;
Mr R. C. Banda, MP; and
Dr P. D. Machungwa, MP.

7. Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare

Mr M. Habeenzu, MP;
Mr B. Imenda, MP;
Ms J. Kapata, MP;
Dr J. Katema, MP;
Colonel G. A. Chanda;
Mr N. P. Magande, MP;
Mr H. L. Imasiku, MP; and
Mr G. Chazangwe, MP.

8. Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters

Mr S. Sikota, MP;
Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP;
Reverend V. M. Sampa-Bredt, MP;
Mr K. Kakusa, MP;
Mr L. H. Chota, MP;
Reverend G. Z. Nyirongo, MP;
Mr B. Sikazwe, MP; and
Mr E. B. Chimbaka, MP.

Hon. Members, as indicated in my announcement on 21st January, 2009, each Committee shall elect from its number one member to be the Chairperson of the Committee on a date to be communicated by the Clerk’s Office.

As hon. Members are aware, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Orders Number 153, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will at a later date move a Motion in the House for the appointment of Members of the Public Accounts Committee.

I wish to advise the House that, after the appointment of Members of the Public Accounts Committee, if any Member does not find himself or herself on the membership of any Committee, that Member should inform the office of the Clerk accordingly.

Thank you.




The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving the chance to inform the House of the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) financial statements for the year ended December, 2007. These financial statements have been submitted and were tabled to the House in December, 2008 in accordance with the provisions of the National Pension Scheme Act.

Sir, NAPSA is mandated by law to administer and operate the National Pension Scheme on behalf of the Government. NAPSA, therefore, plays a very important role in the socio-economic affairs of the nation.

Mr Speaker, apart from discharging the mandate given by the National Pension Scheme, NAPSA also controls and manages the assets and liabilities of members who contributed to the Pay-As-You-Go Scheme, previously established under the now repealed Zambia National Provident Fund Act.

I must mention, Mr Speaker, that NAPSA was set up to correct weaknesses inherent in the Zambia National Provident Fund (ZNPF). To underscore this resolve, NAPSA not only adopted a mission statement that emphasises prudential administration of the National Pension Scheme, but also investment guidelines to ensure that the scheme is insulated from risky investments.

Performance for the Year 2007

Mr Speaker, I now wish to brief this august House on NAPSA’s financial performance by December, 2007 as outlined in the financial statements.

General Financial Performance

Sir, the Pension Scheme recorded a 45 per cent increase in contributions collected, exclusive of penalties, and an overall increase in net assets of 20 per cent. Regarding the Provident Fund, the scheme recovered an overall increase of net assets of 4 per cent. This is as a result of revaluation gains.

Mr Speaker, the position regarding the net assets for the scheme is as follows:

Pension Scheme K1.7 trillion
Provident Fund K288 billion

Status of Contributions and Benefits Paid

Sir, the National Pension Scheme had a total of 18,563 registered employers, while the total cumulative membership stood at 985,747. The scheme’s monthly average collection stood at K35.1 billion which is a positive indication that the formal sector is growing.

Mr Speaker, NAPSA paid the following benefits to its members:

(a) K24.8 billion was paid out as lump sum benefits;

(b) K3.7 billion was paid out in the form of pensions; and
(c) K20.1 billion was paid out to the beneficiaries under the repealed Zambia National Provident Fund.

Mr Speaker, I mentioned at the beginning of my statement that when NAPSA came into operation in February, 2000, it took over the administration on a custodial basis of all assets and liabilities of the ZNPF members. This meant that NAPSA had to continue paying out to pensioners under the ZNPF list. However, I am glad to report that the disposal of all assets and liabilities of ZNPF is under consideration so that all beneficiaries are either paid off or placed under the National Pension Scheme.

I need to emphasise, Mr Speaker that the level of benefits by NAPSA are significantly higher than what was paid under the Zambian National Provident Fund. The benefits are now indexed to inflation through the national average earnings that are adjusted annually.

The NAPSA Scheme on comparison to the Zambia National Provident Fund provides a pension after members leave employment as this is seen as being sustainable. The weaknesses of the ZNPF Scheme were mainly caused by the lack of indexation against inflation and poor management of the scheme prior to the reforms undertaken in 2000.


Mr Speaker, NAPSA’s investment portfolio in 2007 was as follows:

(a) Pension Scheme

Treasury Bills K510.4 billion
Government Bonds K884.9 billion
Term Deposits K102 billion
Equities K77.9 billion
Fixed interest Securities K32 billion

(b) Provident Fund

Treasury Bills K35.3 billion
Government Bonds K37.9 billion
Term Deposits K7.7 billion
Equities K118.3 billion
Fixed Interest Securities K108.3 billion

Mr Speaker the Government attaches great importance to the prudent management of NAPSA funds. It is in this regard that investment guidelines have been gazetted to guide the trustees of NAPSA in the manner of investing members’ funds.

The ministry has observed that NAPSA has diversified its investments from the traditional bank deposits to investments in real estate development and participation in the equity market. The investment strategy by NAPSA is in line with the Government’s policy of safeguarding members’ funds and promoting projects that contribute to social and national development.

However, the Board of Trustees has cautioned management on the investments that contradict the Citizens’ Empowerment Policy or investments that are of a speculative nature. The Board of Trustees will take appropriate action if the scheme is seen to be digressing from the laid down policy and operational guidelines.

Corporate Governance

Mr Speaker, the present NAPSA Board of Trustees was appointed by my office in May, 2008 in accordance with the provisions of the National Pension Scheme Act of 1996.

The Board of Trustees is entrusted with the responsibility of providing guidance to the management or administration of the Act. The governance at the Board level is basically constituted on a tripartite basis and comprises the employers, trade unions and the Government.

Mr Speaker, in order to improve the operations of the National Pension Scheme Authority, the Board of Trustees is taking necessary measures to safeguard the assets and integrity of the institution. Governance is cardinal in the social security scheme if we are to meet our future pension scheme obligations. In a case where it is believed that governance is being compromised, the Board will not hesitate to take timely preventive action.

It is in this regard, Sir that the Board has taken measures against a top member of the management staff of NAPSA by suspending the officer to allow for investigations to be undertaken by the investigative wings.

Mr Speaker, it is for this reason that an officer has been seconded from the Zambia State Insurance Corporation for a period of three months in an acting capacity as Director General. Since the matter is still under investigations, I am not in a position to provide additional information as this will be deemed prejudicial. I hereby encourage all hon. Members of this House to read the 2007 NAPSA Financial Statements and brief on NAPSA operations for their information.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification on the statement which has been made by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I commend the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security for, at least, making an attempt or less than convincing attempt on the difference between the Zambia National Provident Fund and NAPSA.

Sir, I would like to point out to him the Financial Services Act measures, because this is a guiding law to manage financial institutions he is putting in effect to ensure that contributions are not only well invested but also yield returns. In the light of mere hyper inflation, he talks of good management, but I say poor management because I happen to know the people he has appointed since I sponsored one of them …


Mr Matongo: … and the role of Government bonds because what was related is exactly what was wrong with the previous association. We want to support you but, please, hon. Minister, answer this question as correctly as you can from a financial services point of view.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. Sir, the role of the Government is to basically issue guidelines in the form of policy for these organisations to function. You are aware that it is not possible for the Government to run the day to day affairs of an institution such as NAPSA. There is a management in place and we are confident that given the right managers, they would make the right investment. There is a member of staff responsible for investment portfolio at NAPSA and if this person does his homework well, the investments will go in the right direction.

Mr Speaker, what we are emphasising as a matter of policy from the ministry’s perspective is that investments should be directed to those activities that will secure the money of the people as long as they are investing in the right portfolios. From our point of view, that is fine but the question is, how far we can maximise these profits.

Mr Speaker, the second question which we want answered is, are they matching with the inflation trend? In the statement, I have just said that they have indexed their benefits, meaning that they are matching with time on an annual basis and so I feel we are going in the right direction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for giving a statement on the state of affairs of NAPSA. However, I would like to repeat what the hon. Minister said when he said, “prudent management of NAPSA was one of the priorities of the Government to safeguard members’ funds”. He went further to say that the Board of trustees of NAPSA continue to caution management against making investments in areas that are not of a speculative nature.

Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister try and explain to the House what rationale was used for NAPSA to direct its investment on a farm called Mubuyu that was in heavy debt with Barclays Bank amounting to US$17 million and committed contributors’ money. I believe that the Director General of NAPSA also sits on the Board for ZAMBEEF, a company which NAPSA sub-contracted to run the same farm. Could he confirm whether he does not see a conflict of interest in this regard?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, I mentioned in my statement that we want to take the Board in their right standing as competent officers who are running that institution and monitoring the activities of management on a day to day basis. One of the things I also said is that they would like to take, together with us, preventive action so that we do not come in when all is lost.

Mr Speaker, regarding the issue of Mubuyu Farm which the hon. Member referred to, I am aware that the management of NAPSA now has entered into an agreement with Barclays Bank to try and reverse that transaction and we hope that the part payment which was made will be given back to NAPSA so that the issue is concluded in an understandable manner and we hope that all the issues in that regard will be addressed correctly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, my concern is on the workers at Mopani Copper Mine and Konkola Copper Mines Plc who are not members of NAPSA. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to ensure that the workers also start contributing to NAPSA.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the law encourages all employers; both in the public and private sector to make their employees become members of NAPSA. These are issues that are tabled, in most cases, many times with the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council. We will constitute one such meeting sometime in the month of February, I hope, and we trust that our colleagues from the trade unions will also present this issue so that we can together discuss this matter in the tripartite meeting. I am sure that we will resolve it amicably without having to drag each other in the mud.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, this hon. Minister is trying to avoid the most important statistics.

Mr Speaker: Order! The phrase ‘this Minister’ is not respectful. Will you address the hon. Minister as the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security educate me on the actuarial value of the NAPSA Fund and the NPF Fund and when it was done as all the statistics given may not assist me appreciate how able they are to meet their commitments.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the fund has been evaluated from year to year. With regard to the statistics the hon. Member has asked about, I cannot answer off the cuff. This is something that I need to consult the officers at the ministry on and information will be provided. If the hon. Member wishes to make further requests on this issue, the answer will be provided to him.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, yesterday on the Floor of this House, we heard from the Ministerial Statement which was given by the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport that NAPSA is owed $2.5 million by an airline which has now suspended its operations. Can the hon. Minister tell this House and the nation what his ministry and NAPSA intend to do to ensure that people get that money without undue suffering since these are their contributions?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, towards the end of my statement, I mentioned that since the matter was still under investigations, it was difficult to comment on what other issues may have gone wrong until investigations have been completed.

Wit regard to the hon. Member’s question, yes, the ministry is concerned about the possible loss of funds that may result from the wrongly investment NAPSA made in areas that will not be beneficial to their members. We want to be alert and proactive and we hope that nothing of this kind will happen as a result of that. However, we will encourage the Board and management of NAPSA to take necessary measures to ensure that if there are any monies that were wrongly invested, they should be brought back so that the fund does not lose money as this will disadvantage its members.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister gave us a breakdown of how the investments from the NAPSA funds have been made, which is very good. I wish the hon. Minister could just tell me what the overall return on this investment is. I am sure it is positive. How does the positive return benefit the Members?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, obviously, the actual calculation cannot be done now, but, yes, I want to agree with him that the return is positive. This is why NAPSA is paying its members well in comparison with the National Provident Fund. May be the hon. Member would wish to know that at the moment the highest amount a member with NAPSA gets on a monthly basis is slightly over K1 million while the lowest gets K365,000 and some people get somewhere between the two amounts. This is a good start for a programme such as the one we have and we hope that we will make progress.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, we have heard about the imprudent investments in coffee farms and airlines. How imprudent are the investments currently taking place in the housing sector when the housing bubble is in the process of bursting? Was it prudent from the beginning to invest in such a notoriously fickle market such as housing?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to know that real estate is one of the investments that is so desirable among many investments in our country. If you cannot invest in real estate, I do not know what other investment programme you may have in mind. As a Government, we encourage them to invest in this direction because we are satisfied this is the correct thing to do and we do not see anything wrong at all.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, from the figures given by the hon. Minister, it is clear that NAPSA is doing very well. I would like to find out why it has taken ten years to pay former RAMCOZ employees their NAPSA dues.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, NAPSA has a way of paying its members. If members have no problem in terms of remittances to NAPSA and they are well paying members, it will not take ten years for them to get their benefits. Therefore, I will need him to come and show me which person took ten years to be paid. Otherwise, NAPSA pays its members on time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, recognising that investing in real estate is a good investment, could the hon. Minister tell the House the extent of NAPSA’s investment in the proposed shopping mall that will be constructed opposite the Lusaka Central Police Station. How long will it take NAPSA to recover the outlay?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, there are currently two major projects that NAPSA is involved in. One is the one the hon. Member is talking about and the second one is the one involving the National Housing Authority. Both programmes have been approved by the Board of trustees of NAPSA. I think the business plan looks good and organised and we hope that when the investment is completed, it will definitely bring good returns to the institution.

As for how long it will take, I think this programme stipulates that it is something that I can easily brief hon. Members on. If you are to ask that question, we will be more than willing to give you precise information.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what is being done about the houses for NAPSA in the Chelstone area that have been offered for sale because the houses have been over priced and have never been maintained. Is there any consideration being made to reduce the price of the houses, as they are occupied by orphans and people who are unemployed?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the issue that the hon. Member is asking about has reached our ministry. The remedy which the ministry has taken is to work with the Board. In various places other than Chelstone, Lusaka, such as on the Copperbelt, management has extended the period of payments to June this year. I am aware that the earlier deadline for payments for the houses and flats was 31st December, 2008. This has been changed to try and assess and accommodate the various complaints that have been made.

 The issue of the price is difficult to comment on off hand. However, I would like to mention, in principle, that three valuations have been done and we trust that they can give us a fair position to arrive at a reasonable price so that people can afford to buy the properties. Obviously, accommodation is not as cheap as many people may think, especially in prime areas. People might be complaining about a price for a house such as K300 million when in fact, the market value could be way beyond K1 billion in areas that are very close to town.

Therefore, the ministry is looking into this issue with a view to finding a way of being fair to both parties so that there are no complications. The Fund needs money to ensure that it looks after its members but at the same time ensure that the prices for its properties are fair.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the ministerial statement. However, I have one question that will require the hon. Minister’s urgent attention. This has to do with the NAPSA Act which empowers the hon. Minister to give exemptions to other pension schemes to allow new members to be recruited. I have in mind two Government pension schemes which are the Public Service Pension Scheme and Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF). My question is whether the hon. Minister has any plans, this year, to urgently review the Act so that the two institutions can be saved from collapse.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe has asked a very important question. The Government is obviously interested in the welfare of employees who have been contributing to LASF and the Public Service Pension Scheme. At the same time, we are interested in ensuring that the returns to the members contributing are managed viably. There was a big problem in the beginning when NAPSA came into being, of funds not being managed to the satisfaction of the members. The investment portfolio was declining and it was obvious that if the funds continued being managed in the manner they were, obviously, members would be disadvantaged. Management of the funds has since changed and improved and the ministry is studying the situation carefully in order to find a way of safeguarding the institutions or making a provision in the law so that it is useful to all.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Lubansenshi.

Mr Chota stood up but did not say anything.

Mr Speaker: He is not in the House.


Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, what will happen to the huge sums of money kept in the NAPSA suspense account whose members have not been located? Further, what steps does the ministry intend to take to avoid further failure by NAPSA?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, in an organisation such as NAPSA that deals with many employees countrywide, it is difficult to absolutely avoid a suspense account. However, the suspense account is meant for holding money for people who cannot immediately be identified. Once people are identified, obviously, the amount of money in the account will decline. Therefore, this should not be an issue because I think that the funds will be managed in relation to how many people are identified at a time.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, every now and then we receive a lot of calls from senior citizens, especially politicians who served in the previous administrations complaining about being neglected and not being on any kind of pension scheme. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what assistance the Government is planning to render to the senior citizens to have access to some kind of pension.

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, obviously, the hon. Member knows that the pension schemes are meant for members who have contributed or are still contributing to them. If an elderly politician has never contributed to a scheme, it would be very difficult to include him or her promptly to any scheme. However, as a Government or ministry, we are trying to put something in place. In conjunction with partners such as the International Labour Organisation (ILO), we have conducted a study on this matter to see if it is workable for us to have a pilot project to help address issues of people who are sixty years old and above. We are devising something of a social security nature in the developed world in the management of the aged. We have finished studies on this and are moving closer to the implementation stage. However, this will depend on how quickly we are able to get resources, as a ministry, to support this project.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, fifty years is the age limit upon which a member can claim benefits from either NAPSA or the Zambia National Provident Fund. Taking into consideration that a lot of employees leave employment through retrenchment and other ways maybe twenty years before that age, is there any consideration by the ministry to assist those who are leaving employment before the retirement age because they need the money so that they can settle properly?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, a pension is basically a package which is meant for the aged, but if there should be any provision dealing with people who are young and would like to leave employment, these are issues that are left to managements of organisations and trade unions to agree upon. Obviously, in doing this, if their members have been remitting to a fund such NAPSA, LASF or the Public Service Pension Scheme, there will be a need to liaise with the management of the pension schemes because if this is not done, people will leave their jobs and their contributions over the years may be stuck with the fund until they reach the age of fifty or the retirement age as stipulated by the Pensions Act. Therefore, this is something that needs to be harmonised if management and trade unions should want to agree on something greater or lesser than what is in the law.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, my question is related to the introduction of a universal scheme for people over sixty years. I think the hon. Minister has adequately covered it when he was answering the question from the hon. Member for Zambezi West.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I would the hon. Minister, in answering this question, to be slow and categorical. What are the actual values of the National Pension Scheme and ZNPF? In other words, if all the retirees demanded to be paid their money today, would that obligation be met?


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker …

Hon. Opposition Members: Speak slowly.

Mr Speaker: Order! Only the Chair can know how the hon. Minister speaks and nobody else.


Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your protection. The hon. Member for Mapatizya is asking a very hypothetical question. There can never be a situation where employees retire in one day in the world apart from Mapatizya.


Mr Liato: Therefore, that is not possible.

I thank you, Sir.



21. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services why Chilubi and Mpulungu districts received monthly grants of only K1 million for vulnerable groups in spite of the large number of disadvantaged people.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Malwa): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services wishes to inform this august House that in 2008, Chilubi and Mpulungu districts respectively, received the following allocations for the welfare support and food security pack under welfare support.

Welfare Support

Month   Chilubi District  Mpulungu District

January  K2,102,725    K2,102,725

February  K2,336,363   K2,336,363

March   K2,336,363    K2,336,363
April   K3,272,955   K3,272,955

  May/June  K3,035,699   K3,153,699

July   K1,713,266   K1,713,266

August  K3,426,531   K3,426,531

September  -    -

In September, there was no funding, as you all know that this is a month when we sadly lost our late Republican President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. May his soul rest in peace.  All the funding was used to finance the state funeral.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker:

 October, 2008  K1,505,566.00   K1,505,566.00

November, 2008 K2,336,363,00   K2,336,363.00

Total   K22,065,833.00   K22,065,833.00

We also added K10 million that came under the Food Security Pack Programme which brought the grand total for Chilubi to K32,065,833.00. The amount released to Chilubi was higher because we added the K10 million which was given under the food security pack while the amount for Mpulungu remained the same.

The ministry allocates funds based on the monthly releases that are received from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and distributed to districts based on the population of the district and vulnerability index.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s answer indicates that the amount spelled out as allocation for Chilubi is not enough to cater for the rising population of the district. When does the ministry consider increasing the allocation to the district?

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Mr Speaker, from the answer that we have given, it is evidently clear that Chilubi Island gets more than K1 million. As to whether we are going to increase the amount to Chilubi Island, I would like to tell the House that we allocate money from the ministry according to the statistics that we receive from our officers. Districts that have very few vulnerable people will receive little money. Therefore, I would like the hon. Member to be grateful that he has very few vulnerable people in his district.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, what statistics for Chilubi does the hon. Minister have because Chilubi has more vulnerable people than Lusaka?

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is not asking a question, he is being argumentative, what is your question?


Mr L. J Mulenga: Could the hon. Minister be kind enough to this House to indicate what statistics the response is based on because Chilubi has more vulnerable people than Lusaka. Therefore, what is the allocation based on?

Mr Kaingu: The question is laughable. There is no way Chilubi Island can have more vulnerable people than Lusaka. If the hon. Member is insisting, we are able to provide the statistics.

I thank you, Sir.


22. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the police officers manning the Musonda Falls Power Station in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency would be provided with shelter.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that shelter for officers manning the Musonda Falls Power Station in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency will be provided through the ongoing Government programme of constructing houses for police officers. The Ministry will construct one or two houses at the power station at the Musonda Falls when funds are made available because of its strategic nature. In the interim, the Police Service has procured two tents for the Musonda Falls Power Station that will be delivered next week.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, is it possible for the Ministry to allow me to deliver the tents in case they delay?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, much as we appreciate the offer to have the tents delivered by the hon. Member, it is not the Government’s policy to use hon. Member’s vehicles to distribute items of this nature. Therefore, we will deliver the tents within two weeks.

I thank you, Sir.


23. Mr Chimbaka asked the Minister of Home Affairs what type and amount of ration a police officer on patrol duties was entitled to per week.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that a police officer on patrol duties is entitled to the following rations per week:

(a) mealie meal;

(b) meat;

(c) cooking oil;

(d) beans;

(e) rice;

(f) meal samp;

(g) salt;

(h) sugar;

(i) kapenta; and

(j) vegetables.

The rations are given in adequate quantities to meet the officers’ daily food requirements. These rations meet all the nutritional requirements and provide a well-balanced diet.

I thank you, Sir.


24. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a) whether the Government had any plans to merge the Departments of Community Development and Social Welfare at both the provincial and district levels; and

(b) when the recruitment of both Community Development Assistants and Assistant Social Welfare Officers would be decentralised.

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, the Government has no plans to merge the Departments of Community Development and Social Welfare at the provincial and district levels because their mandates are different and specialised. The Department of Community Development assists the low capacity households while the Department of Social Welfare assists the incapacitated households.

Further, Mr Speaker, the emerging socio-economic challenges in the country today call for specific interventions offered by the two departments. Nevertheless, coordination of these services at the grassroots level is always encouraged for both departments in an effort to offer holistic services to the vulnerable people.

In answer to part (b) of the question, the recruitment of both community development assistants and assistant social welfare officers can only be decentralised when a statutory instrument is issued to mandate the respective Permanent Secretaries to handle the recruitment process. Currently, the recruitment of civil servants to the Civil Service is only done centrally by the Public Service Management Division (PSMD).

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, recently, the ministry recruited some community assistants but unfortunately, no advertisements were carried out in all provinces. I would like to know the root cause of this.

Mr Kaingu: I should confess, Mr Speaker, that I did not get what the hon. Member was asking about.

Thank you, Sir.


25. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) how much money was donated to the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) by the following organisations from 2005 to 2007, year by year:

(i) Friedrich Ebert Stiftung;

(ii) Lo-Norway;

(iii) International Labour Organisation (ILO);

(iv) American Labour Centre; and

(v) NIZA German Labour Centre; and

(b) what the purpose for the donations at (a) above were.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Services (Mr Kachimba): Mr Speaker, the money donated to the Zambia National Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) by the following organisations is as follows: …

Mr Speaker: Order! Will the House pay attention, please.

May the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kachimba: How many money …


Mr Speaker: Order! The House is now paying attention.

May the hon. Minister, please, continue.


Mr Kachimba: The money donated to the Zambia National Congress of Trade Unions by the following organisations from 2005 to 2007, year by year is as follows:

Name of Organisation    Total Fund

Friedrich Ebert Stiftung    K2,252,075,108.00

Lo-Norway     K3,691,900,391.00

International Labour Organisation (ILO)    K36,154,460.00

American Labour Centre    K470,000,000.00

NIZA German Labour Centre     K151,747,241.00

As regards to part (b) of the question, the support was for the following purposes:

(i) Friedrich Ebert Stiftung – support for affiliates, workshops and sponsorship to Mulungushi University to study Human Resources and Labour Relations;

(ii) Lo-Norway – support for administrative costs and development of gender in trade unions and also to provide educational workshops to the affiliates of the Congress;

(iii) International Labour Organisation - support for combating the worst forms of child labour in the agriculture, commercial and mining sectors;

(iv)  American Labour Centre - support for carrying out workshops and recruitment drive at the provincial centres; and

(v) NIZA Germany Labour Centre - support to carry out research in corporate social responsibility in the mining industry. So far, following the research that ZCTU has carried out in Extractive Industry (EITI), two books have been produced and sensitisation concerning these books has been conducted.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, donations from these organisations have not been going up from 2005 up to 2007. Can the hon. Minister tell the House what the problem has been?

Mr Shakafuswa: Aah! Is that a question?

Mr D. Mwila: Yes!

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Mr Speaker, I do not seem to understand what the hon. Member is asking. His question was to give him information regarding donations between to the ZCTU 2005 and 2007. I do not understand what he means when he says the donations are not increasing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister indicate to the House whether the donations have been fully accounted for and whether there are reports to show the accuracy?

Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, it is true that not only ZCTU, but most trade unions receive support from various supporting organisations in the workers’ fraternity. This money is accounted for because it is a requirement by law to have audited statements of accounts every year and they submit the audited statements of accounts to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security through the Office of the Labour Commissioner.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


26. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the Government would construct ventilated improved pit latrines (VIPs) at the following markets in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency:

 (i) Mwenda;

 (ii) Musonda Falls; and

 (iii) Chipili; and

(b) when the construction of the Mwenda and the Musonda Falls markets would be completed.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the construction of ablution blocks in markets is always done at the time the markets are being constructed. This means that the lay out design for the markets in the mentioned areas included the construction of suitable toilets.

Mr Speaker, the construction of these facilities is not done by the Government, but by the local authorities who maintain them and are at liberty to choose what type of toilets they wish to build, while the Government funds the projects.

In the spirit of decentralisation, people demand the service they want and the Government releases the funds for the provision of that service. It is, therefore, important that the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili takes a keen interest in the construction of the facilities so that suitable toilets can be constructed at the markets mentioned.

Mr Speaker, the Government released over K80 million last year for the construction of markets in Mwense District, specifically Mwenda, Musonda Falls and Chipili.

Regarding part (b) of the question, the completion of the construction of markets at Mwenda and Musonda Falls is earmarked for this year. However, the ministry has not received the progress report on the funds released earlier.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, my concern is Mwenda market. The ministry released money early last year, but nothing has been done. I, therefore, would like to find out whether the Government has officers who normally check on the progress made.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as I mentioned in the response, the ministry has not yet received a progress report on the funds that were released.

Sir, I would have expected the hon. Member of Parliament, being a member of the council where these issues are discussed, to inform the ministry about what is going on pertaining to the funds.

However, as a ministry, we shall make a follow up to ensure that the money is appropriately utilised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister assure the House that the ministry has a mechanism to account for money that it sends to projects. If there is no mechanism, why is the hon. Minister telling us that he is waiting for the progress report?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we have ensured that there are management systems at the local level in the various districts in the country that are able to manage the funds that we release from the ministry. Additionally, we send auditors from time to time to check on the systems that we have put in place to see whether the system has been followed or not. Therefore, we have a system that is working.

I thank you, Sir.


27. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Education when the following community schools in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency would be turned into regular Government-run schools:

 (i) Chitima in Chief Mukungule’s area; and

(ii) Mwenda in Chief Mpumba’s area. 

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that at the moment, the ministry has no intentions of turning the two community schools into Government-run schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that some community schools have more pupils compared to Government schools? If he is aware, what plans does the ministry have for such community schools?

The Minister of Education (Prof Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, we are aware of the enrolment levels in our schools and have statistics to that effect. It is the enrolment levels that are guiding our infrastructure development programme which the hon. Member is aware of and reporting as going very well in his constituency.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, now that the Government says it has no plans of updating the schools in Mfuwe, can the hon. Minister tell this House whether the Government has any other deliberate plans to upgrade the community schools?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, it is very clear that efforts that we are making, as a Government, to disseminate information on our sector is not being considered very seriously by hon. Members like Hon. Ntundu.

Sir, last year, we distributed documentation on community schools on the guidelines and policy framework that we are using in the development of community schools. The hon. Member was given a copy of the document, last year, indicating very clearly the infrastructure development programme countrywide which impacts on community schools. In fact, the Infrastructural Development Programme indicates that some of the community schools as being upgraded.

Therefore, I do not understand why the hon. Member should ask a question that implies that the ministry has not attended to community schools from a planning point of view when information has been made available to him. He also has community schools in his constituency that are being upgraded.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Education indicated that the Government has no plans to upgrade or take over community schools. Is there no contradiction in what the hon. Minister is saying in that the community schools exist because the Government has not provided schools? The ultimate aim is for the Government to eventually take over the schools and run them as Government schools, especially in the rural areas where there are few schools. Can the hon. Minister clarify that?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member, who was a Cabinet Minister in the former Government, is aware of the Government policy on education. The Government policy on education states that there will be partnership in the development of the education sector. The partnership cuts across the communities, private sector, churches and other organisations together with the Government. Clearly, the efforts which are made by the communities are in line with the partnership principle. As we go along, and depending on the availability of resources, some of the community schools will be incorporated in the Government sector. That is what we are doing and the hon. Member for Luapula is aware of that.

Dr Machungwa: Did you hear what your colleague behind you said?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, our answer indicated semantically, “at the moment”. This does not mean denial of attention to the area in need, but it is with good planning that we have a phased process which the hon. Member should understand.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what plans there are put in place to ensure that quality education is provided in community schools which will not be taken over by the Government.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to say that the documents which were distributed indicate what we are doing, as a Government, to pay attention to the issues of quality in the community schools. For example, we are providing grants, educational materials and extending services such as teacher training for some of the community schools. Therefore, the programme is in place to ensure that community schools that we are supporting, as a Government, are operating at acceptable levels of quality.

I thank you, Sir.


28. Malama asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) how much the Government had so far spent on the procurement of vehicles for chiefs;

(b) how many chiefs had not yet received the vehicles at (a) above and when the remaining vehicles would be procured for them;

(c) whether the procurement of vehicles for chiefs was a loan to them and, if so, what the recovery period was; and

(d) if the vehicles were a loan to the chiefs, whether the Government would consider converting the loans to grants since chiefs did not receive salaries, but monthly subsidies.


Mr Speaker: Order! The House must pay attention.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House as follows:

(a) the Government spent K6.6 billion for the purchase of 150 vehicles in 2007;

(b) there are 136 chiefs who have not yet received vehicles. Mr Speaker, the Government has already remitted another K1.3 billion to the Zambian Embassy in Japan for the procurement of more vehicles which are expected to arrive in Zambia in April, 2009;

(c) the vehicles are given to their royal highnesses on loan basis and the minimum recovery period is five years; and

(d) it is true that their royal highnesses do not receive salaries, but subsidies. Therefore, the loans are recovered from their monthly subsidies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, it has taken too long for the ministry to procure the remaining vehicles. I would like to find out whether the K1.3 billion the ministry has sent to Japan will be enough to procure vehicles for the rest of the chiefs.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the ministry will be sending another K3.7 billion to Japan to ensure that all the chiefs are adequately covered this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, what criteria was used when giving out vehicles to the first 150 chiefs? Was talking too much one of them? Mr Speaker, this is because Chiefs in Mwense …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mulongoti: Nawipusha kale!

Mr D. Mwila: Nishani ba Mulongoti!

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the criteria was not what the hon. Member of Parliament has suggested. The chiefs from various provinces were consulted and they decided who was to get the vehicles first. However, all the chiefs are receiving vehicles this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, are the vehicles that are bought for the chiefs new? If not, how old should they be before they are purchased?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, these are secondhand vehicles and recovery of the money will be with immediate effect.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, there are some royal highnesses who live on islands and they prefer boats to vehicles. Has the ministry considered procuring boats for those royal highnesses?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the ministry did not receive such requests from any of the chiefs. If there was such a request, the ministry would have considered it. At the moment, we do not have such a request on our table.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, why were the chiefs given loans that they did not apply for. Why can they not be given grants considering that the monthly subsidies they get are insufficient to settle the loans, especially that some of the vehicles are already defective and they have become a burden to the chiefs?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, it was agreed that the chiefs will be able to pay back the loans through the subsidies. However, should it be found necessary to convert the loans to grants, appropriate action will be taken through Cabinet.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}


29. Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the Tiyende Pamodzi Road in Chililabombwe Parliamentary Constituency would be tarred.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the contract for the rehabilitation of Chililabombwe Township roads is in the process of tender and is still under consideration, subject to availability of funds.

Sir, however, the local road authority, which is the Chililabombwe Council, responsible for prioritising the roads to be rehabilitated, did not include Tiyende Pamodzi Road on the list of roads in Phase 1 due to the amount of money needed to work on the road.

Mr Speaker, the following roads are under consideration:

1) Mposamambwe;

2) Church/Hillside;

3) Independence;

4) Kapangala;

5) Ntambalukuta;

6) Mwange;

7) Mwafulirwa;

8) Chitimukulu; and

9) Sichone.

Mr Speaker, these are approximately 6.2 km. The Tiyende Pamodzi Road may be included in Phase 2 if the local road authority includes it, subject to the availability of funds.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told us that Tiyende Pamodzi Road was not included in the first phase. It is surprising that Tiyende Pamodzi Road was allocated K1 billion two years ago. The residents of Chililabombwe are asking where this money has gone because they heard that it has not been used.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament is a councilor for Chililabombwe and when funds are allocated for projects in the council, it is incumbent upon her to ensure that the funds so released are utilised for the purpose. For her to ask when she knows the money was provided is extremely unfair. I would like her to tell me what happened to the money which was made available to her council.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, from the time the Budget is passed, why does it take so long to implement road works? What is the hon. Minister doing to ensure that the bureaucracies that are there in the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the Zambia National Tender Board (ZNTB) are reduced to ensure that there is performance on the ground?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in the name of transparency, it is the same hon. Members who insist that tender procedures must be respected. When you have finished debating the budget by March, the tendering process begins because you cannot start tenders without knowing whether the money is there or not. Therefore, it is only necessary that all precautions are taken so that you do not contract without money. These are activity-based programmes.

Therefore, Sir, we are following procedure and the law. As soon as resources are made available, procurement is done.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


30. Mrs Banda asked the Minister of Health when an x-ray machine and theatre equipment would be provided to Kakoso Health Centre in Chililabombwe Parliamentary Constituency to upgrade it to a hospital.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, it is not the policy of the ministry to provide x-ray and theatre equipment to health centres. However, Kakoso Health Centre will receive this equipment since it has been earmarked for upgrading to a first level referral hospital (District Hospital). Through this expansion programme, construction of an x-ray unit, theatre and laboratory were completed in December, 2008. The ministry has made a provision in the 2009 Budget to procure and install diagnostic facilities including x-ray machines and provide theatre equipment to enable the institution attend to minor cases.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, one of the problems that we have in the various districts is the non-availability of ambulances. When are the ambulances that are still lying at Ndeke House going to be distributed?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I have not seen any ambulance at the Ministry of Health. I would like to clarify to the House that I have given instructions that in future, a vehicle supplied as an ambulance must be a fully-fledged ambulance. We have been using ordinary vehicles as ambulances and these have been ineffective. In future, we shall ensure that ambulances have all the facilities.

I thank you, Sir.



(Debate resumed)

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to resume debate.

Mr Speaker, when the House rose yesterday, I had just stood up to give the reasons I wanted to debate this Motion. As I said earlier, I was incited by the first paragraph of Page 9 of the President’s Speech which reads, and I quote:

“In my Inaugural Address last November, I promised the people of Zambia that the main priority of my Government will be to fight poverty.”

Sir, I am restricted to debate this paragraph only as it relates to the rural areas, part of which I represent.

Mr Speaker, I am doing so because at the end of my debate, I am going to lay on the Table a map which was produced by the Electoral Commission of Zambia which shows the voting patterns during the last Presidential By-election. It is a pattern that shows that once more, the MMD Government returned to power on the basis of a rural vote. Once again, this Government has exploited and plundered the rural vote to get back into power.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: I want to interrogate a fundamental paradox …


Mr Sejani: … why people who have consistently and religiously voted for this Government must consistently, religiously and perennially get a raw deal.


Mr Sejani: I want to interrogate the reasons these most loyal voters in the rural areas are not always considered. Why rural areas in Zambia continue to receive less than desired public expenditure. The Budget is coming next week or whenever it is, but we are going to make some calculations. I will show that consistently, public expenditure in Zambia is tilted against rural Zambia.

Sir, I want to interrogate reason rural areas continue to register less access to basic services such education, health, water and sanitation, to name but a few. I think the time has come to interrogate these questions and find solutions.

Sir, I want to find out why rural areas continue to house the most impoverished of our citizens. Researches have shown that though Zambia is poor, the major of the people who are poor are in our rural areas.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear!

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I am talking about extreme poverty, and not just any other poverty.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM SPEKER in the Chair]

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, when tea intervened …


Mr Sejani: … I was about to debate the disturbing levels of poverty which has afflicted our rural areas. I was about to say that while certain types of poverty can be tolerated, there is one type which no one can tolerate. We can afford to live without shoes or clothing in general, but none of us here can live without food.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: This is the type of poverty that is now beginning to envelope our people in rural areas. When we begin fail to feed ourselves, it speaks volumes about the success of agricultural policies. If we cannot feed ourselves, there must be something fundamentally wrong with our agricultural policies.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Indeed, there must be something wrong with the policy that does not recognise that the bulk of food is produced by our small-scale farmers in the rural areas.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: There must be something wrong with the policy that focuses only on the provision of seed and fertiliser, but ignoring other aspects of agriculture such as markets, the provision of credit and livestock. There must be something wrong.

Madam Speaker, this Government is not attending to the problems that are affecting food production in this country. In the end they mock us by saying that we must continue eating roots.

Madam Speaker, agriculture production in this country involves livestock production. Many small-scale farmers depend on livestock, but this sector has been ignored and continuously under funded by this Government.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, there was a time when the Government regarded livestock as national assets. Indeed, the animals that we have individually are ours, but at the end of the day, collectively, that is national wealth. When you say Zambia is poor we are talking about Zambians who are poor. When we say that Zambians have animals or cattle, we are talking about individual cattle owners.

Sir, there was a time when the Government intervened to save the livestock sector. I remember when I was young that there were Government facilities where we could take our animals for vaccinations. This was preventive vaccinations and not the type of vaccinations that we see nowadays where we just panic when there is an outbreak of disease and we are very quick to institute cattle movement bans. The ban in turn becomes more harmful than the disease itself.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, I would like to put it across to this Government that it is extremely important that we look at industries that take care of the poverty of our people.

Madam Speaker, today, in the United States of America and the rest of the western worlds, Governments that we are copying economic theories from are bailing out their vital industries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: We are following their economic theories, but they are bailing out their vital industries such as car industries and banks. We do not have car industries here, but we have the cattle industry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Therefore, you must bail out the cattle industry in this country to allow the small-scale farmers produce for them to escape poverty.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: There is something wrong if we cannot feed ourselves.

Madam Speaker, there was a time when the rural part of Zambia fed the whole Zambia. Now, the rural parts of Zambia, tragically, have to look up to urban centres for food. There is something wrong.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: We must be concerned.

Major Chizhyuka: UPND!

Mr Sejani: Rural Zambia must feed urban Zambia, but now the people in the rural parts of Zambia are waiting for food from the urban areas. There is something fundamentally amiss!

Mr Muntanga: Correct!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Interrogate now!


Mr Sejani: Despite the poverty levels affecting rural areas, we still go there when election time comes and continue to exploit these people through their votes.

Madam Speaker, according to the Living Conditions Survey of 2006, the majority of the poor population of this country are in the rural areas. Amongst the provinces that have people living in abject poverty is the Western Province which stands at 84 per cent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Sure!

Mr Sejani: Followed by the Eastern Province at 79 per cent.

Mr Muyanda: Wee! Yah!

Mr Sejani: You can imagine that these are the provinces that gave this Government the most votes in the last elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


Major Chizhyuka: Shame!

Mr Sejani: A question that must be asked is, what is there for these rural poor people? What are they voting for? Are they voting for poverty?

Mr Kambwili: They were given fertiliser!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, I commend those parts of Zambia that are rejecting poverty by voting against this Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: You must appreciate …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: … when good things are done for you. The people in the rural parts of Zambia have been voting for you consistently, but in the end, they got a raw deal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, the people in the rural parts of Zambia have continued to have less access to basic services. According to the Rural Water and Sanitation Programme 2006 to 2015, a programme of the Government, 67 per cent of Zambians in rural areas have no access to clean water.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: The people we exploit through their votes …

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sejani: … have no access to clean water.

Madam Speaker, 87 per cent of rural Zambians have no access to sanitation facilities and these are the people you get votes from.

Mr Hamududu: Sad!

Mr Sejani: This is sinful!

Mr Hamududu: Sad!

Major Chizhyuka: It is sinful!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: I think this is sinful. One day we are going to be asked to give an account of our work as public officers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: We ignore people who have voted for us, but instead, let them live in poverty. It is tragic.

Madam Speaker, I expected the President to announce something along those lines by having a martial plan for water provision in the rural areas. He should have talked about massive programmes of borehole drilling and dam construction so that the animals can also drink.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: However, all what this speech does is describe problems. We are not interested in this. Anybody can describe problems, but we are looking for prescriptions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: I cannot see prescriptions in this speech.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sejani: Our people continue to wallow in abject poverty in rural areas.

Major Chizhyuka: Ku UPND mudala!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, …

Mr Muyanda: Interrogation!

Mr Sejani: … forty-four years after independence, pupils in rural areas continue to learn under conditions that are similar to those of a prison. They learn in dusty and dirty classrooms without desks. They are still learning in temporary structures forty-four years after independence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sejani: And we go back and ask for votes every year …

Mr Muyanda: From the same poor people!

Mr Sejani: … from the same poor people.

The Educational Bulletin which I have here, again, shows that the province which is leading in terms of temporary structures is the Western Province. It stands at 1,769.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Shame!

Mr Sejani: Followed by the Northern Province at 1,411. Compare those statistics to Lusaka Province.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Sejani: Why are you exploiting the rural people? Why can you not give them what you get from the rural vote?

Major Chizhyuka: MMD voters!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, I have a document here which lists, name by name, schools with temporary structures all over the country. There are 3,439 schools with temporary structures. I am going to lay it on the Table.

For example, Lwatembo, Sasemba in Nalikwanda, Kunda Lumwansha in Muchinga, His Honour the Vice-President, have temporary structures forty-four years after independence. Ninety- five per cent of these schools are polling stations and you go there to solicit for votes.


Mr Sejani: The time to interrogate this Government has come.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sejani: If interrogation will not be sufficient, we shall torture them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! The hon. Member may interrogate issues, but nobody is allowed to torture anyone in this House. Can you debate issues, please?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer! Hammer!

Mr Muntanga: Torture!

Mr Sejani: The amount of poverty that our people are experiencing in rural areas is indeed torturous.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: If we have human hearts, we must pause and think.

Mr Muntanga: Correct!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, we talk about free education but how free is this free education? When our children are still sitting on floors or stones? Or when Parents and Teachers Association (PTA) are continuously extracting money from parents in the form of PTA fees and project fees? When we are paying through our noses tuition fees because public schooling has of a low quality?

Mr Muyanda: Low quality!

Mr Sejani: At the moment, the public school system is giving way to private tuition and we must part away with millions of Kwacha. How free is that education, and yet we go and ask for votes from these people?

Mr Muyanda: Interrogating!

Mr Sejani: Where is the money you got from the Heavily Indebted Poor Country (HIPC)? How much of that money has gone towards rural development? Where are the resources from the mining sector? How much of that resource has gone towards rural development?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: When are you going to answer to the problems of our people?

This Government has short-changed the people of the rural areas.

Major Chizhyuka: Alimwi nee!

Hon. Opposition Members: hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: This Government has short-changed the people of the rural areas.

Some of these areas we are talking about bore the brunt of the liberation struggle.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: However, you have forgotten about them. They made supreme sacrifices to liberate Southern Africa.

Major Chizhyuka: Mapatizya!

Mr Sejani: For example, no one will ever write the story of the liberation of Southern African without mentioning Kavalamandja. Imagine the amount of sacrifice and deaths registered, but if you go to those places today, they are ghost areas. Have you dared to return so that we can sue those people? Who can forget the sacrifices made by the people of Imusho, Chikumbi and Shamponda? Who? You have abandoned them. These people must now be wondering what wrong they have committed to deserve this. Some of the communities died in liberating Southern African but no one has gone back to say thank you in terms of infrastructure development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: We have ignored rural Zambia, but we are very quick to go back and exploit them.

Madam Speaker, I am saying that we have sinned against the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: The MMD Government has sinned against the people of the rural parts of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Although we may cling to power, by hook or otherwise, one day we shall be called to give an account of what we have done here.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: God will burn this Government.


Mr Sejani: God is going to burn this Government because they have sinned against the people of Zambia.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member must debate moderately without threatening people with burning.

You may continue, please.

Mr Sejani: I am most indebted to you Madam Speaker, and I will debate moderately.


Mr Muyanda: Zambia is a Christian Nation!

Mr Sejani: However, I must emphasise that the abject poverty the people in the rural areas live in is a very big threat to their livelihood.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: It is high time those of us who are exploiting them for our political gain had consciences to think about them and not just use then when it is election time.

Mr Hamududu: Shang’ombo!

Mr Sejani: In 2011, I am going to remind each one of the ninety-five polling stations who they must vote for. Surely, it does not pay to continue to vote for poverty. The MMD Government represents supreme poverty. It is about time we changed.

Madam Speaker, I wished I had more time I was going to interrogate more questions. I will lay the documents that I have referred to on the Table for consideration by this Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani laid the papers on the Table.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the Motion of Thanks to the Speech delivered to the House by His Excellency the President.

Madam Speaker, before I go into the actual business of debating the speech by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, I wish to make a humble appeal …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can we listen to what the hon. Member on the Floor is saying.

Mr Chisala: … to the hon. Ministers I am going to mention in my speech because last year I experienced a very strong response from one senior cabinet Minister who, after I had debated, he stated that he had a lot of difficulties in following my speech. However, I did not know what he meant. Probably it could be the reason that we went to different schools.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Personally, I went to a mission school and later I went to the University of Zambia as a full time student and I had enough time to interact with my lecturers which some people did not do.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, let me now come to the actual business that has enabled me to be on the Floor of this august House. As a representative of the people of Chilubi, I would like to appreciate the Government’s effort in improving production of cash crops is concerned.

Madam Speaker, partially one is able to see some tangible result. However, we need to see more because this year, the Government has not provided much. I am referring to the issue of fertiliser. This farming season, most of the farmers in my constituency and in particular the entire Northern Province, are deeply disappointed to discover that the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, lamentably failed to supply our farmers with enough fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, you can imagine the whole of Chilubi District with a total population of 83,000 people receiving only 272 packs. Where are we driving to? Are we serious about what we are doing?

Madam Speaker, the Government of the republic of Zambia should start thinking about improving the lives of the people through the supply of fertiliser as promised.

I further wish to emphasise that lack of manpower is another problem that we have in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. In most of our areas, the officers who were supposed to assist our farmers in ensuring that they carryout their duties effectively are not there. Why can the Government of the day not employ more workers so that our farmers can be assisted? This is a very serious point which the Government must look into if we are to improve the production of cash crops in this country. Similarly, it is a sad development that some of our agricultural officers, particularly the district agricultural officers do not have transport. The best example is that of Chilubi. Surely, even if we are not serious as a Government, how do you allow a district agricultural coordinator to go for years and years without a vehicle? How do you expect them to supervise the farmers in the absence of transport? There is not a single boat or a marine engine in Chilubi. Surely, these are some of the things we have to consider if we are to improve the production of food in this country.

Madam Speaker, let me register another disappointment with FRA. The Food Reserve Agency in this country has not performed to the expectations of the Zambian people. The Food Reserve Agency has not performed to the expectations of the Zambian people. I say so in the sense that the people charged with the responsibility of buying cash crops have only concentrated on the purchase of crops along the line of rail, sidelining the rural areas. What wrong have the rural people done to the Government? These are some of the things we have to look into seriously and improve on because the rural people are the ones who gave you the mandate to rule and that is why, today, you are seated on the right of the hon. Madam Speaker. If it had not been for the rural people, you were not going to be there because the people in urban areas rejected you. These are some of the things you have to look into.

Madam Speaker, worse still our colleagues, especially those in agriculture, have even encouraged the FRA to only concentrate on buying maize. Is maize the only crop grown in this country? We should change because there are many crops that can be bought. People are growing millet, rice, sorghum and other crops, but why can the FRA not buy these? We need to improve on this.

Madam Speaker, I would now like to discuss education. Madam Speaker, before I go into detail, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Education for at least constructing 1,527 classroom blocks. This is a positive achievement and we need each and every Minister who is serving the Zambian people to emulate his example because we are answerable to the Zambian people. The people out there are seeing what is happening. You were not appointed hon. Ministers just to sit in the office, but s to go out there to see the suffering of the people, attend to their needs and improve their lives. I wish to thank you for your effort and I would like you to keep up the spirit.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, other than that, I would like the hon. Minister to work harder this year because in my constituency, there are only eight upper basic schools. I made a humble request through the right channel, but to date nothing has happened, which means that many pupils this year have been denied an opportunity to go to Grade 8. Madam Speaker, something must be done about this.

Madam Speaker, there is another issue that should be checked seriously. This is the issue of changing the syllabus every year. Surely, since 1964, if my memory serves me right, we might have changed the syllabus about four or five times. There was the new reading system, the Zambia Primary Course and today, we have the New Breakthrough to Literacy. Which direction are we going? It sounds as if we do not have a direction on education. This is because we were supposed to have a policy in place and once we have this, definitely, things will start moving in the right direction.

Mr D. Mwila: Ndalamei uleumfwa.

Mr Chisala: I have, beyond any reasonable doubt, confidence in the hon. Minister in charge of education.

Mr D. Mwila: Lungwangwa.

Mr Chisala: It is my earnest appeal that the hon. Minister will look into this problem because we cannot continue changing syllabuses year in and year out. It is unacceptable.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the issue of hardship allowance for teachers. It is something which should be looked into seriously.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Surely, what do you think of places such as Chilubi, Chavuma, Miyombe, Kaputa and so on and so forth when you say some of these teachers should not be getting rural hardship allowance. Are we being fair, surely? We must look into this issue seriously because we would like to see that in each rural district, teachers are given an opportunity to get what is due to them. This is because in the places I have mentioned and many others, teachers have a lot of problems. You can imagine there are no banking facilities in Chilubi. People have to travel to Kasama and Mansa to get their salaries. Please, let us do something to better the lives of our people.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, let me now come to what I consider a burning issue and this is turning the Copperbelt Secondary Teachers’ College (COSETCO) and Nkrumah Teachers’ College into university colleges.

Mr D. Mwila: Good.

Mr Chisala: The idea is welcome. It is a bright idea because it is going to enable a lot of our citizens get the required qualifications and the spirit must be encouraged. However, I am disappointed with the manner in which the restructuring is taking place. How do you start something abruptly? You want to transfer lecturers who do not have the masters degrees from Nkrumah and COSETCO to go and serve elsewhere. We are creating confusion in the system. We are supposed to take time doing things. Once we start doing things in a hurry, definitely, we are going to miss the direction and we shall be answerable to the Zambian people.

Hon. Minister, I know you have the capacity to correct the situation because it is not too late yet. Lecturers at Nkrumah, National In-service Teachers College (NISTCOL) and COSTECO who do not have the masters degrees are complaining. Why can we not slow down hon. Minister so that we do not fumble in the process? You have the capacity to reverse the situation and it is my earnest hope that your fellow Ministers will support you in some of these issues.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member speak through the Chair.

Mr Chisala: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Let me also talk about the allocation to the universities. Last year, I indicated that there was a need for the universities to have an independent vote in the budget. This year, the four public universities need to have their own vote so that, at least, they can be in a position to sort out some of these problems that have been affecting these public institutions.

Madam Speaker, allow me now to turn to the issue of local Government. I would like to thank the then hon. Minister, last year, for making an effort to solve some of the problems our chiefs have been facing in terms of transport. It is a positive achievement, but a reasonable number of chiefs did not get the vehicles. This simply means that, some chiefs, especially those who live near the water border areas, such as those in Chilubi, Samfya, part of Kaputa, Mpulungu and others in the Western Province, should be considered for water transport such as boats. Last time, when I was in the constituency of Hon. Mwansa, I found some chiefs complaining. They said they would not benefit from the vehicles. Therefore, in this respect, I would like to make a humble appeal to the hon. Minister in charge of Local Government and Housing to consider these chiefs for boats.

Further, Madam Speaker, it is paramount that this year, the hon. Minister should consider increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to a reasonable amount, of for instance K1 billion or above because this is the money we depend on in our constituencies. It is very difficult for us to look for money to put up infrastructure such as schools and clinics. This is because the Government does not have enough financial muscle to give money to each and every constituency. Therefore, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to see to it that enough money is allocated to such projects.

Madam Speaker, on 28th November, the hon. Minister made a very good ministerial statement here in which he indicated that the administrative costs would be reduced from 10 percent to 5 percent. This has not been done. Therefore, I am requesting the hon. Minister to look into this issue because if this is not done, our colleagues who are running the local authorities may pounce on a huge amount to the extent that the people running the projects are going to be disadvantaged.

Let me now come to the issue of human rights. The issue of human rights is a very important one. What we have observed in this country is that prisoners are not considered human and this is very unfair. The prison in Luwingu is in a deplorable condition. It is beyond description. Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, why can you not scout for money to improve the conditions in that prison. Equally, the prisoners are being mistreated by their fellow prisoners. This is something we should look into. We cannot allow such kind of abuse to continue. Please, this must be looked into seriously.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to point out that some of us have not seen any results from the Task Force. If the Task Force has not achieved anything tangible, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) should take up its mandate because the ACC is the legitimate wing of Government empowered to handle issues of corruption. The huge sums of money that have been spending on the Task Force could have been used on other projects and development could be enhanced in our country. So I am calling on the Government to see to it that the Task Force is scrapped off.

With these few words, I wish to thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): Madam Speaker ….

Mr Kambwili: Mwansa mbulakushima.

Mr Mbulakulima: … I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate. Let me join the many hon. Members who have observed that the speech by His Excellency the President is fantastic.


Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, it gives the nation the direction to be taken. In acknowledging this, I am mindful of the fact that in society there are always people who oppose no matter how good a situation may be. Some are born that way.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Where we see hope, all that they see are burglar bars. That is their nature. I hope that the way we speak is not the way we read the speech, in a riotous way, because if we do, no wonder we miss the points. I hope that when we read these speeches, it is done in a cool and nice atmosphere.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Mbulakulima: Yes, bayama. That is why …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That is the danger of speaking through everybody.


Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, I want to appeal to my colleagues to pay attention as I debate. Those who normally say that the President’s speech is hollow need to be analysed. Is it the speech which is hollow or themselves?


Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, this Government is very magnanimous. We are realistic in that we look at situations as they come. That is why when we acknowledge that there is a problem, it is not a sign of weakness. Even in medical terms, there is a need to make a diagnosis of a problem to know how to proceed.

Let me quote Barack Obama’s inauguration speech:
“Today, I say to you that the challenges we face are real. They are serious and they are many. They will not be met easily or in a short span of time. But know this, America ─ they will be met.”

This statement was not a sign of weakness and he was merely stating the fact. On 7th January, 2009, John Atta Mills acknowledged that Ghana, as a country, was going through a lot of challenges, especially with the threat of cocoa prices going down as a result of the world economic crunch. He, however, encouraged his people that the Government was going to navigate through those problems.

Madam Speaker, I am glad that this speech came before the Ghanaian and American presidents were sworn in …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … because we would have actually been accused of taking extracts from the speeches of these Presidents. This speech (waving the President’s Speech) is even better than Obama’s inaugural speech.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, page 2 of this speech states, and I quote:

“It is also true that we faced many daunting challenges that tested our spirit, tested our unity and tested our nation’s resolve.

“2008 was a difficult year for Zambia. The illness and subsequent demise of our beloved President in August and the Presidential by-election in October dampened what had started out as a year of great advancement.

“The year began in prosperity and ended in recession.

“I think it is true to say that 2008 will be remembered as the year that the world took one step forward and then two steps back.”

This is a fantastic speech and this is why I want to appeal to my colleagues that they must read this speech in a cool atmosphere and then they will get the points. As Hon. Sichilima said yesterday, the problem is that when we debate, we are so riotous and heated up and as a result we even miss the salient points.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, this speech is very detailed. It is pro-poor and representing hope at this challenging moment. The speech fits rightly with the time when Zambia, as a nation, is facing challenges which are not of our own making, but simply because we subscribe to the world economic order.

Madam Speaker, as hon. Minister in change of the Copperbelt, it affects me to my skin to see that my people are being threatened with loss of jobs due to the mines that are suddenly struggling to remain afloat. However, the President’s Speech has given the people of the Copperbelt and I a lot of hope that though we are struggling …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! (Protesting that Mr Mbulakulima should not read)

Mr Mbulakulima: … not all is lost as the Government is doing all it can to ensure that our people are not left out in the cold. It is in this vein that I would like to appeal to all hon. Members here to tell our people the truth and not to just seek political capital for reasons of expedience.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President has provided hope to the people of the Copperbelt. Page12 states, and I quote:

“The global credit crunch and subsequent cost saving measures have resulted in job losses, damaging both our economy and our society. Further concerns have been raised on the measures my Government is undertaking to cushion the country from the effects of the crunch.

“Mr Speaker, in response, the Government has devised intervention measures designed to mitigate the adverse impacts of the crisis. These measures include:

Among many, Madam Speaker:

“Engaging mining companies to prevent major job losses and encourage other investors to come;”

Madam Speaker, page 15 specifically protects the employees of the mines and it reads:

“However, let me sound this warning note. The global crisis must not be used as an excuse to lay off workers in a cynical attempt to cut costs and reduce overheads.”

This is what the President said and it is meant to protect the employees of the mines. It is now up to us to take heed. Therefore this Government cares for the people of the Copperbelt.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Can we reduce the running commentaries. When each one of you is debating, others must listen. Otherwise, our work will prove to be futile. Our debate will be futile because people should hear and make sense of what is being said. Can I, therefore, request hon. Members to be in control of themselves. A comment may be made once, but you cannot continuously talk through the speech.

Hon. MMD Member: Kambwili. That is their nature.

Mr Kambwili: Ulelanda bwino nayiwe.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!


Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, I promise to change the way things are done. Debating only does not help us, and any job loss should only come as a last resort after consultation with trade unions and thorough analysis of all options available. This is the direction that the Head of State is giving and this is why I said that he has provided hope for the people of Copperbelt.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Ministers of Labour and Social Security, Mines and Minerals Development, myself and other several government officers have made several trips to the Copperbelt and assured our people there that the Government will do everything possible to make sure that the sufferings are minimised. I do not remember anywhere where Luanshya Copper Mines, as it was said yesterday, promised that there will be more losses of jobs in that line. After all, the mining company was put on care and maintenance. Therefore, the conclusion that he has no respect for the Government after promising and assured that there will be no loss of jobs, does not arise. This Government is firmly in control and we shall do everything possible to make sure that negative effects are minimised. After all, there are plans under way to transform Luanshya into an economic zone because we realise that the price of copper will continue fluctuating.

In essence, Luanshya is earmarked for free tax zone and will be transformed into an economic zone. This is our hope and future.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, on agriculture, as has been mentioned, for us on the Copperbelt, especially in the rural areas and indeed, in my constituency, Chembe in Milenge District, we believe and are confident that this direction has brought hope. For example, the Food Reserve Agency, FRA, has been directed to buy maize from the remotest areas of this country. This is a unique development and must be encouraged.

 In the past, the rural areas were not reached, but now the President has directed that we ought to empower the rural people. There is a need for FRA to reach out to the rural areas. This is the direction that this Government has taken and it should be commended.

Madam Speaker, the provision and strengthening of extension services was long gone, but this Government has revised it and directed that it must be done.

In this regard, the people of Milenge are now assured of services from Government officers, as this is the only way we are going to improve agriculture, which is our mainstay. As the President put it, education is the means of poverty reduction and a path to prosperity. In Milenge, this year, we shall open a high school and we believe that with the coming of a high school in our area, definitely, poverty will be reduced.

Madam Speaker, feeder roads are being worked on by this Government that cares, so the assumption that this Government does not care about the rural population is not correct. The people of Zambia, especially in the rural areas, are not making a mistake by voting for this Government because they know what is going on and who the pretenders are. As such, they will never stop voting for the MMD because they know that this Government cares.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: I want to concur with Hon. Chimbaka’s sentiments yesterday that in whatever we do, human resource is key. All of us here as he indicated yesterday, are part of the three arms of Government and that is why even His Excellency, on page 42 of this speech, has challenged all hon. Members of Parliament to ensure that the earth moving and ginnery equipment is used for the intended purpose. For as long as we do not participate, efforts to improve the situation in Luanshya will be futile. All of us, UPND, PF and MMD need to team up and fight poverty in this country. This policy speech has given us the direction; and any reasonable person must stand up and commend this, as this is the way we should move.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to debate this very important motion. Firstly, allow me to give an example which is very close to us in this House.

Madam Speaker, those guys seated up there …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member may not be allowed to debate the guys somewhere. Neither should he regard them as part of his debate. Can he focus on the House and not the guys the Chair cannot see.

Mr Kapeya: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. The professional journalists who are assigned to this House are here to do their work, what they are doing here …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can you take another route. You will not bring them directly into your debate in that manner.

Mr Kapeya: Madam Speaker, all that I wanted to put across is the way things should be done.

Madam Speaker, whatever we are discussing in this House concerns the welfare of Zambians. I expected the President’s Speech to be finally checked by a special appointed bench from Cabinet or State House. Why am I saying so? I am fully aware that what is contained in the President’s Speech is a collection of different items from various ministries. Once these items are collected, they are put together to produce a document called the President’s Speech. It is at this stage that I would like to comment. When the document is being assembled, we need the experts to ensure that what will come out of that document is the correct material for public consumption. An example is on what the President talked about in relation to protection of jobs in the mines, but the Zambian people would have wanted to know by what means the Government would protect jobs in the mines. A little mention of that type of protection would have gone a long way to help other Zambians come up with ideas– mind you, Madam, there are other Zambians who are very good at formulating more and more ideas.


If there was a slight mention of the method of protecting jobs, we would have paved way for other Zambians to help in formulating more ideas.

 His Excellency the President, in his speech, talked about protection of jobs in future. What about miners who have already lost their jobs? What about the 2,000 plus miners who have already been retrenched? What is their fate? The speech never mentioned anything about the miners who have already lost their jobs.  Are they not Zambians? They are also Zambians who are supposed to be protected. Therefore, this speech needed to mention a little just how jobs in the mines will be protected and how the ones who have already been retrenched will be handled. I expected that to come out in the speech.

Again the speech talked about the continuous registration of voters. How many times have we heard about the continuous registration of voters? We have heard it so many times since 2006 when this current Tenth Assembly opened. To date, we are still being told of the continuous registration of voters. We are in the third year and we have only two years to go before the other general election in 2011. Let us be very careful in this country. We should not take Zambian people for granted. Once people lose respect and trust in us as a Government, that will be the end because everything that we say will not be taken seriously by the people of this country. I am referring to what the MMD Government keeps saying the registration of voters being a continuous process. How long are you going to tell this to the Zambian people? Take care of your speeches. Let us tell the people by what means this will be done. In the President’s Speech, we should have told the people by what means are we going to start the process of registering new voters. In fact, there are so many young men and women who have already reached the voting age.

Madam Speaker, sometimes I feel like laughing to myself. Surely, why should someone in this country, today, at this time and age of our independence be forced to belong to a particular organisation? And if we had the bench I was talking about, which is totally responsible for analysing the contributions from the ministries I am talking about, it would surely have looked at Article 21 of the current Constitution which clearly states that and, I quote:

“…except of his own consent, no person shall be hindered in the enjoyment of his freedom of assembly and association, that is to say, his right to assemble freely and associate with other persons…”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: That is what the current Constitution says. If somebody says, “No, you must belong to this association”, where are we heading to? Of course, Madam Speaker, the association itself must not be threatening. That is what the Constitution says. It must not threaten defence, public safety, public order, public morality and public health. However, if we look at the media in Zambia -let me be very open to you, it has been very responsible since independence. People must be told that the peace we are enjoying in this country has not come about by accident, but because of the mature and responsible reporting by the media; …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: …both print and electronic. There is no need to bring about regulation to for this and that. The media in Zambia is self-censorship because they know what to put out for public consumption.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Yes they know. The media in this country is mature enough. The peace we are enjoying, today, is because of what the media writes. They think twice before they write anything. Let us respect the media in Zambia because they have played a major role in the maintenance of the peace and tranquility we are enjoying today. Had it not been for their mature and responsible reporting, this country, believe you me, would have been on fire a long time ago.


Mr Kapeya: I will give you an example if you did not know. This country has been divided into two parts. One is called north-eastern Zambia and the other is north-western. Already, there is some loose talk going round this country to the effect that the leadership and those in control of this country must belong to one region between the two and the media house has picked up this kind of negative talk.

Hon. MMD Members: Ah!

Mr Kapeya: However, because they are very mature and responsible, they have not brought this out for public consumption because they know if they did, this country could be on fire.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Madam Speaker, let me now talk about the earth moving and engineering equipment that has been sent to provinces. It is so sad that from the time the equipment arrived in the Northern Province on 6th October, 2008, only one constituency has used it for road works. To date, the grader has only managed to do thirty kilometres of the road works. The idea is that in every constituency, the equipment should be used to do eighty kilometres of road works. However, the first constituency to benefit from the exercise has only had about thirty kilometres of road works done and the equipment has been abandoned at a certain place in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency to date. We have not been told the reasons this has been so.

Madam Speaker, I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister of Works and Supply that it would be very helpful if a single grader was allocated to each constituency and hon. Members would take care of the fuel expenses. This can definitely go a long way in doing road works in various constituencies. This suggestion must be taken seriously by the Government, especially the hon. Minister of Works and Supply.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Motion.

Firstly, I would like to wish all the patriotic Zambians a happy new year and to remind them that this is a year of hard work. They should brace themselves for hard work and hard times ahead because the speech that His Excellency the President, R. B. Banda, presented to this House has not given them any assurance.

Madam Speaker, when the President comes to open Parliament at the beginning of every year, he is supposed to deliver a speech which is supposed to give us and the nation direction on what course the country would take during the year.

It serves as a guide to the nation and Parliament. However, disappointing enough, this year, the President’s Speech, sorry to say, was ‘ollow’ and had no meat.

 Hon. MMD Members: Ollow?


Mr Mukanga: When I look at it seriously, I agree with Hon. Shakafuswa who said that it was a skeleton albeit a weak one such that even if you put meat on it, it would collapse.


Mr Mukanga: What I am trying to say is that this is a false speech because we did not receive what we were supposed to. There is a trend in this country to allow adverts in which people are told not to eat beef, but soya pieces and people say that nyama soya is better. 


Mr Mukanga: This speech is a good as asking people to eat nyama soya. It is a nyama soya type of speech.


Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, that is why this speech will not go anywhere. Those who are given the mandate to advise the President and let alone contribute to the speech, should be serious. It does not pay to embarrass the President. It does not pay to embarrass the Head of State by letting him present a speech such as this one. You will be held responsible. No wonder most of you were just watching and wondering what was going to happen.

Madam Speaker, if I were President of this Republic, I would have fired the people who advised me because most of the people who contributed to this speech simply wrote what the President wanted to hear. We should advise the President properly and ensure that whatever he speech he delivers is something that is acceptable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Why can you not take a leaf from what happened when President Obama presented his speech?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: People were serious. That is why we are saying that we also need to be serious and let the President discuss issues that affect the nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: When the President was talking about the MMD leadership, and I quote:
“Under the MMD leadership is a Government for all Zambians and not for members of the ruling party only.”

 I am sure he might have meant that, but in your minds, you meant something else. No wonder other things are happening such as when there was a Provincial Development Coordinating Committee (PDCC) meeting in the Northern Province, an hon. Minister could say the ruling party members should take care of their expenses. Do you not know that we discovered on the ground that the ruling party members who attended the PDCC meeting were paid for by the Government?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr V. Mwale: Mulilila tuma rooms twa 20 pin na tu nsima twa K1,500

Mr Mukanga: Why are you compromising the truth here? You are breaking Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia.


Mr Mukanga: Ask Hon. V. J. Mwaanga. That is how he lost his job. You should be careful.


Mr Mukanga: I think it is important that we practice what we preach. We should, like Hon. Kambwili stated, walk the talk and be honest if Zambia is to move forward. We need men …

Hon. Opposition Member: And women.

Mr Mukanga: … and women of integrity. Thank you.

Do not invite people to Lusaka then at the end of the day reject them when things become very hot. You do not do that and people are dying.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: There should be integrity. I wonder what you are saying. In the speech that the President delivered, there were a lot of priorities. I wondered when he mentioned everything as priority. I questioned myself and wondered whether his predecessor did not do anything. Was he trying to confirm that his predecessor did nothing?

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: If there are priorities, they need to be ranked so that we can monitor what has been done and what is to be done next thing instead of giving us a general theme.

I want to remind you that when somebody comes to power, the first hundred days of his tenure of office are very important. If he does not achieve anything, then nothing will happen.

Hon. MMD Members: Ninety days!

Mr Mukanga: People should then understand that the status quo will not change. He even goes on holiday before accruing leave days.


Madam  Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can the hon. Member debate the speech and not bring in people in that manner. Otherwise, he may end up overstepping. Can you please debate not with negative passion, but with passion for Zambia?

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, I thought that when he went to Mfuwe he would write the speech.


Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, on pages 12 and 13, the President came up with how we where going to mitigate the adverse impact of the global crisis. Some of the things he mentioned such as engaging mining companies, diversification of the economy, encouraging Private-Public-Partnerships (PPPs) and promoting and expediting exploration of petroleum in the country are not new. The global crisis is new and therefore, calls for new solutions and issues that will change things.

One of the issues he mentioned was the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF). Who does not know that it is difficult to access that fund? How many people have accessed that funding? It is very difficult because you need to have collateral or assets. How many people have assets? Very few Zambians have assets.

 In Kantanshi, very few people are accessing that fund because it is difficult. We have no assets to show. If anything, even the houses that were sold through the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) have no title deeds. Therefore, the people in Kantanshi are disqualified. They cannot access to this fund. It is important that when issues are brought, we know that they will affect the people.

Madam Speaker, with regard to skills development, the Youth Development Fund (YDF) was going to help the youth and we were looking forward to it.  This House passed the budget for YDF because we believed that the fund was for income generating activities (IGA) where the youth would raise income and sustain their operations or whatever they came up with.

However, I am sorry to say that after the budget, we have not seen this YDF. Where has the money gone to? What is the task force doing? It needs to read between the lines and look at issues such as this one this.

One day you will be held responsible. You should ensure that issues that pass through Parliament are implemented. Are you really committed to the provision of requisite skills to this generation of youth or is it going to come in the generation?

The President stated that our young are our future. Where is the future if the future has no foundation? Where is the future if it has not been provided for?

Madam Speaker, regarding local government, we know that it is the engine of development. If the local government is not functioning well, even the central government will fail.

Hon. Member: Hear!

Mr Mukanga: How do you expect the local government system to function properly if all that the President spoke about was centralisation of staffing, recruitment of staff, decentralisation, mayoral elections and motor vehicles for chiefs? If those are the only issues that are being addressed, I am sorry to say that this country will not go anywhere. I see a big problem because the status quo will continue.

Madam Speaker, what we want to see is efficiency, proper service provision, increased funding to the local government and the executive officers at the councils who are inefficient fired because the people out there want services. Urbanisation will not end if piped water is only found in Lusaka. People will come to Lusaka if there are no schools in Mokambo. If there are no clinics in Kasombo, people will come to town. It is for this reason that we are saying, if you improvement, it is important that funding to the local government is increased. Facilities in the rural areas such as schools, clinics, portable water and sanitation should also be improved. If you do not do that, you will continue complaining about urbanisation and never find a solution.

Madam Speaker, allow me to come to the subject which means so much to me because I spent many years in the mining industry. I am disappointed that when the President was talking about mining, he did not specify the way forward. I expected him to come out in the open. In one breath, he says we will discuss with the investors, and in another, he is threatening them. Again, he says we should ensure that we do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

I think it is important to know that, while the President is saying all these things, there are retrenchments going on. People are being retrenched. We are told that Luanshya Copper Mine (LCM) has retrenched about 2,700 people. I know that the mines have terminated contracts with most of the contractors who were doing business with the mines. Consequently, even the people employed by the contractors have also been retrenched. Therefore, we are talking about more than 4,000 people losing their jobs on the Copperbelt.

Madam, the problems we are talking about are real. People are suffering. May be you are not seeing it here in Lusaka. There is a big problem on the Copperbelt because people have no jobs. They cannot even send their children to school. They cannot even go to the banks and borrow money because the houses they bought have no title deeds, Mr Shakafuswa.


Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it is important that things change. It is not just a matter of being an armchair critic. It is important that you look at issues seriously. The global crisis is real. Therefore, it calls for a real solution. Neither does it call for threats nor just sitting and speaking. It calls for solutions to things that are happening on the ground. Even the schools that belong to the mines have increased their fees. Pupils have lost school places while their fathers are becoming jobless. At the end of the day, we produce street adults and street kids. Why should we move at this pace?

Mr Shakafuswa interrupted.

Mr Mukanga: You have no heart, Shaka! Things need to change.

Madam  Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member should speak through the Chair. Do not listen to any heckling. Can you speak through the Chair, please?

Mr Mukanga: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, when we talk about miners losing jobs and mines being closed, it is important that we do not forget the history of the mines. It is important that we look back and see where we have come from. For example, LCM has been sold twice to people with a trading background because they were not so transparent. It was sold to con men. They came and made their money. When time for tax concession or tax holiday elapsed, they decided to leave. They have left us in a very bad situation. If we cannot learn from such experiences, then we will never learn. It is important that we ask ourselves questions such as, “Why are retrenchments only happening in Zambia and not in the Democratic Republic of Congo?”

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Mukanga: Why!


Mr Mukanga: The other question you need to ask is that when you were selling the mines, the cost of copper was at US$1,050 per tonne, but now it is about US$3,000 per tonne. They are making a profit although it cannot be compared to the time when the price of copper was US$8,000 per tonne. We need to look at all these issues. We need to learn a lesson from this otherwise this country will continue to lose out. In other countries people would have sued the government for failing to sell the mines properly.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: We do not seem to learn from what actually happened in the past.

Secondly, I would like to state that even at the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) there is no department that looks at taxation for mining companies, and yet that is where we are getting revenue from. I think it is important that we effect such a function so that it is easy for us to monitor the direct investments, production and profits that the mines are making. At the moment, we rely on the good will of these companies. You can only strike iron when it is hot and it is only iron that sharpens iron. So learn to listen. If you do not listen, you will not learn and this will go on. It will be a vicious circle.

The mines must be bailed out and not nationalised. It is important that we bail out the mines to serve the jobs of our people. We should inject some money into the mines, but if we nationalise them, it will be too expensive. We should remember what happened in the past when we were spending about US$1,000 to sustain the operations of Kabwe Mine which had gone under. Therefore, it is important to save our people who work in strategic investments. If anything, you should learn from the PF policy.


Mr Mukanga: The PF policy is able to help you.


Mr Mukanga: PF proposes less tax. If you have less taxes, there will be more money in your pockets.

Mr V. Mwale: Zim dollar!

Mr Mukanga: You need to show the people that you cut the mineral loyalty and company taxes so that there can be more investment. When there is more investment, more people will be employed. When more people are employed, there will be more money in their pockets and more money in the pocket of Zambia.


Mr Mukanga: I think it is important that we learn from what happened during the depression of 1929 to 1945. Had it not been for the bad policies of the New Deal Administration in America, the depression would have ended in 1936, but they did exactly what you are doing. They were doing wrong things and implementing wrong policies. At the end of it all, they extended the depression. If you want advice, put it in writing and ask the PF. They are able to advise you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam  Deputy Speaker: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, I rise on very serious point of order. The MMD Government is on record of having lifted this country out of a very serious recession at the beginning of our tenure. However, we are being told to embrace PF policies whose mentors were just …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Could you raise your point of order.

Mr Shakafuswa: Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to ask us to embrace PF policies which are pornographic in nature.


Mr Shakafuswa: Is he in order to ask us to embrace their policies when all they do is undress in public?


Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair will not allow that point of order. The first reason is that the language is unacceptable. The second reason is that the hon. Members on my right will have time to respond to all these issues that are being raised. It is at that point that the Chair believes they will refute what is in the point of order if that is the position. That is why the Chair expects that those on my right are busy taking note of some of the points that are raised.

 The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it is important to realise that the President is constantly asking for advice from us. We want him to put it in writing and then we will give him proper advice that will redeem this nation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it is important to realise that the Patriotic Front is a bottomless pit in as far as wisdom is concerned.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam, if there is a lot of wisdom, we are going forward. It is a pity that we have people who cannot analyse issues and read through the lines.

Madam, if, during privatisation, we had left some strategic companies, we would not be were we are today. It is important that people know this. This Government wants to get the good things from the previous administrations, but they do not want to inherit the bad things that happened in those previous administrations.

Madam Speaker, lastly, I would like to talk about the Zambia Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act. The Pollution Control Act states that no one is allowed to discharge sulphur dioxide in the order of 125 micrograms per cubic metre on an average of twenty-four hours, but Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) discharged 500 micrograms per cubic metre and nothing happened. Mopani Copper Mines discharges more than that. One may wonder what normally happens. Why are those figures there if you cannot follow them? If anything, I wonder where you get your standards from because even the World Health Organisation (WHO) sets its standards at 20 micrograms. Why do you go up to 120 micrograms? You should appreciate that you are not an island and you should be following international standards if you are to progress as a Government.

Madam Speaker, I would like to state that at the rate this Government is doing things, it will soon become irrelevant to the development of this country unless they appreciate that what we are telling them will help this country. This is important. Let them sink but if they do not want to sink, let them come to the boat. The boat is there to help them move forward.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it is important that this time, when they look at issues, they should revisit the development agreements (DAs) and also ensure that the development agreements are made public. They should also make sure that the annual reports of this company are made public for people to see. The other issue is that the labour laws should be changed to ensure that there is no casualisation of labour. Further, all standards should be updated to suit the international standards. The other issue is that the Zambia Revenue Authority should create a department or section to monitor the operations of the mines.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Gender and Women in Development (Ms Changwe): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity to thank the President for a well thought out speech; a speech that gives hope to the Zambian people and direction for the developmental agenda in this country.

Mr V.  Mwale: Government Trophy!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, I would like to state from the outset that much as I would like to debate most of the issues that have been raised here, I am restricted a little to my portfolio. I would also like to state quite early in my debate that the Gender in Development Division (GIDD) is not an implementing agent. Its mandate actually is to monitor, coordinate and also evaluate the gains that Zambia has made in the quest to improve the gender status in this country.

Madam Speaker, allow me to use the acronym “GIDD”. GIDD is there to ensure that that the Government infuses …

Mr Sichilima: Taba umfwe!

Ms Changwe: … a gender perspective, especially in formal public institutions in this country. It is a well-known fact that systems of Government, world over, that articulate visions of development or paradigms of development that marginalise, discriminate, ignore and exploit a certain group of people are no longer tolerable, especially in the 21st Century.

Madam Speaker, as such, this Government is on course because the gender parity index in this country shows that Zambia has made tremendous strides in improving the status of women.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, to this effect, I would like my audience to understand gender as a social category and not as something that refers to men or women separately. That is the more reason that this Government will not compartmentalise developmental programmes because our agenda is that of inclusion; men and women together for development. That is the basis for our development in this country.

Madam Speaker, it is important to also understand the past in order to appreciate the present. In the 15th Century and 16th Century respectively, when the industrialisation revolution begun, the qualification criteria for employment was based on physic because the equipment that was used in the industries was manually operated. That is where the position of women begun to be relegated to that of a subordinate because most women could not get into the industrial world because they were perceived unfit to operate the machinery.

Madam Speaker, therein lies the roots and codification of gender. (inaudible) 

Who says that there are no teachers in rural areas? Those girls were not going to pass if there were no teachers, but because of the many teachers who have been drilled in instruction procedures that do not discriminate against girls, we saw those results.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, it is because of the pro-activeness of this Government that we see a change in the curriculum, today, and a lot of girls’ schools constructed in this country.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe:  Madam Speaker, we are seeing the fifty-fifty enrolment ratio at the Grade 1 level and the 30 per cent places reserved at the University of Zambia for girls and women.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, this Government appreciates the importance of education and its emancipation nature. That is the more reason this Government wants more girls and women to get educated because education emancipates women. Education lifts the status of women; it raises the esteem and assertiveness of women.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear! Hammer!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, what was demonstrated last year by Hon. Professor Lungwangwa is second to none in this country.  It clearly shows that we have the right agenda and are in the right direction to development.

Mr Sichilima gave Ms Changwe a bottle of water.

 Mr Sichilima: Drink some water!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Gender sensitive.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, it is from this set of girls that tomorrow we are going to have the Matakas of this world, Irene Muyenga of the Zambia State Insurance Corporation and women who are progressive in decision making positions.

Madam Speaker, we have Mrs Mizinga Melu of the Standard Chartered Bank and many other women such as Mrs Justice Florence Mumba of the Electoral Commission of Zambia who declared Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda the duly elected President of this Republic.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, I would like to challenge hon. Colleagues who are saying that there are few women in Cabinet. The participation of women at the decision making level is not just in Cabinet. Female hon. Members of Parliament …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}


Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that the feminism movement is unstoppable. At the moment, the Government has bought into that unstoppable movement by infusing strategies, interventions and mechanisms within the system of Government to ensure that the disparities between men and women are closed up.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to state that when the first women’s conference was held in Mexico in 1974, followed by the four United Nations Conferences of women and also the one year that was dedicated to the cause of women, nobody actually thought we would see what we are seeing today. However, I am happy to state that we are on course.

Coming to the strategies that the Government has put in place, we have heard often times people speak of gender mainstreaming. For the sake of those who do not understand what gender mainstreaming is, …

Mr Sichilima: Chisala!

Ms Changwe: … I would to explain that gender mainstreaming simply involves putting in place strategies and change agents in the public formal institutions.

Like the HIV/AID Policy, the Government has ensured that in every institution, there is a gender policy. That is why I said that it is not just being in Cabinet that women can make decisions. It is making decisions and having women in any position where they are able to break this asymmetrical power relation that exists.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, allow me to state that we, in the Executive, are on course and our binding principle is the National Gender Policy which has been translated into the seven languages that are officially recognised in Zambia.

Mr Sichilima: Lay them on the Table!

Ms Changwe: This is the National Gender Policy as translated into all these languages.

Madam Speaker, we are on the ground. That is the more reason women in the rural areas have continued to vote for this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: They have seen that there is hope for them through the National Gender Policy.

Madam Speaker, the Gender Policy clearly states that all the plans, programmes, projects, including the national budget, are gender responsive. That is part of the strategies.

Madam Speaker, the Government has also embarked on capacity building for all the focal point persons at the provincial and district levels so that we are not just in Lusaka because we are walking the talk.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: We are not like other groups of people who can only champion the gender cause by investing in the streets.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Ms Changwe: We are not like any other group that does not have a vision and a mission for the gender perspective.

Mr Sichilima: Kokolapo apo!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, this year, as part of our strategies, we are also going to move into serious sensitisation for our women and men. This is because we believe that development is neither for men nor women only. We want an inclusive kind of developmental agenda in this country.

Mr Sichilima: Abaume baletina!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, some people are still indifferent to the cause of women, as I have witnessed somewhere in some fora where people were saying women should not have access to land, and those are people who want to take over Government. God forbid it will never ever happen!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, this Government is the sole sponsor of change in public formal institutions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, our change targets are not only those people who are in formal institutions but also those in non formal institutions beginning at the grassroots level. What we want to see is our people internalising that gender is a social category. It is a way of life.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, as Ministry of Gender and Women in Development, we relate to what the President said in his speech, that women issues are important. Women issues will be part of this programme. Our people in the rural areas are also covered because the President is not only a President for MMD but a President for the whole country. Everybody must be seriously sensitised.

When GIDD calls for a workshop on these issues, hon. Members of Parliament should all turn up because we want them to be part of the change agents, so that they can, in turn, bring in change on change targets. That is how we are going to operate.

In my concluding remarks, Madam Speaker, I would like to state that this speech is very inspiring, especially for us in the women’s world. It will continue to give direction in the Gender in Development Division in collaboration with other ministries because we are not an implementing agent but we work hand in hand with other line ministries. To that effect, Madam Speaker, this speech is excellent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, this speech will go down in history as one of the best speeches this country has ever heard.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, with these very few words, I wish to thank you, once more, for giving me this opportunity to debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sichilima: Quality!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to those of the many voices that have spoken before me.

Madam Speaker, looking at the content of the speech, I find it very difficult to say it is not satisfactory or it is satisfactory. Sometimes the speech may not matter, but what is important is to look at the people who are supposed to implement what is in the speech. There are times when we actually point fingers at one another, especially us politicians, without identifying the problem. We should also involve the implementers who are not politicians such as senior civil servants. If this speech contained something good for the Zambian people, if the attitude of the citizens towards work is not vibrant, we are not going to achieve anything.

Madam Speaker, I would now like to discuss skills development. Indeed, this area is very important in the sense in this country, there are so many educated people. However, lately, the number of educated people has been out numbered by that of uneducated people. It is from this angle that I would like the Government to move in and help people in places such as Buseko Market in Matero and Mandevu Market and those in rural areas who are struggling to make ends meet by providing them with shelter and giving them financial support. If you look at the products that are displayed at Buseko, you will agree with me that we are not serious in tackling problems.

Most hon. Members have constructed houses using material from such places. The people in leadership also go to the same places and they see how the people are struggling to make ends meet by producing and selling timber products.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to say that it is sometimes difficult to develop skills in this country because people think that if you cannot speak English, no matter how much God blessed you with a talent, you are nothing. We have a lot of educated people with first degrees and masters degrees and some of them are professors or doctors. Sometimes we laugh at our neighbours and say they do not speak good English, but can you compare their economies to ours? I would rather belong to those who cannot speak the English language well but eat well. Eating well is more important than speaking English.

Madam Speaker, most of the people who have Tuntembas go to Tanzania to buy goods to sell, but they sometimes find it difficult to communicate because in Tanzania, Swahili is one of the official languages. I would like to suggest that we adopt the seven local languages as official languages too so that those people who are talented can find access to offices. It is very difficult this time for people who cannot speak good English to penetrate offices in this country.

Madam Speaker, on television sometimes, you will see a journalist interviewing someone at Soweto Market in English and because the person being interviewed cannot speak English, it causes embarrassment at times. Why are we avoiding our local languages? It is only in this country where when a pupil has a distinction in Mathematics and other subjects and fails English, they are considered to have failed. Brethren, that is not important.


Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, what is important is to look at the intelligence of that person. We should allow that pupil to proceed so that he or she can become a scientist. Sometimes I wonder why we do not respect our mother languages. We need to look at this because this is where the problem lies. We are fond of looking emulating the western world things, and yet we have not reached that level. Until we admit this fact, we are not going to see development. We have departed from our roots. God knew why he allowed Tongas and other people to be in this country. No tribe or person chose to be in this country; it was God who placed us here and it was for a purpose.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, should we continue ignoring these simple things which we might think are not important to us, we will continue quarrelling with our brothers on the other side of the House and we will continue pointing fingers at one another, but we are not going to achieve anything. I have noticed that when an hon. Member from the Opposition stands up to speak, they always say, “people on the right are free to come for consultations”. Even the people on the right also stand up and say, “we are flexible and our doors are open”.

Madam Speaker, where is the problem? Why should the people on your right and those on your left not come to a consensus to use experts in agriculture such as Hon. Dr Scott …


Mr Malama: … and Hon. Muntanga. Why do we not sit together and come up with a solution because this is serious. I am not talking for the sake of it, but what I am saying is that if the Government says the doors are open, somebody given the responsibility of governing this country should invite those who have not been given the mandate to govern this country to sit together and find solutions to some problems.

Madam Speaker, I now want to look at agriculture. Madam Speaker, all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate and even those who are yet to do so will talk about agriculture. Sometimes it is very difficult to continue talking about the same thing. When are we going to find a lasting solution? Every year that comes, each time a Member of Parliament stands to debate, he or she always talks about the same thing. How serious are we?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: I would like to repeat what I said last year on the Floor of this House when I said as long as the rural areas are not opened up, we are not going to achieve anything in agriculture. There is no way you can distribute inputs to peasant farmers to grow food without proper roads. We need to ensure that when we distribute inputs, we also quickly work on the roads so that when these farmers produce food, they can find a market for their produce. In doing so, you will find that next time they will not depend on the Government, they will depend on the money that they get from selling their produce. When are we going to graduate from giving handouts in terms of inputs? These are the issues that we need to look at.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: It is very difficult to select satellites where maize is sold. In Mfuwe, for instance, sometimes people have to walk long distances to find these satellites. Here is a peasant farmer, who has produced fifty bags of maize and he or she has to carry the bags on his or her head to find a market for the maize. It is difficult. As long as we continue talking about agriculture without looking at how we can assist the people in rural areas with regard to roads, we shall not get anywhere.

Madam Speaker, sometimes the people on your right need to help the provincial administrators. Here is a situation, for instance, where the people of Kanchibiya are saying the Government only graded thirty kilometres from the turn off going to Chundaponde. They have named this stretch the ‘Thirty Kilometre Road.’ Sometimes we need to be serious.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: We need to be serious in the sense that one week before the by-elections in Kanchibiya, graders moved in. This time people have known those tactics. You will never attract any voter by behaving in this manner.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: If you want to win elections the time is now. Go where people think you are not working and do the work so that when the elections come you will just be pointing at the developments you took to those areas. As if that was not enough, after the by-elections, when Hon. Mwango won, the same road was abandoned, shame! Do you really expect the people of Chundaponde to vote for you in 2011?

Hon. Government Members: They will.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, we have actually continued creating enemies. The MMD Government has continued creating enemies where the Opposition is controlling because they are failing to deliver to some extent. This time, people are now wondering whether the Government really meant to work on Chundaponde Road. Here is a situation in Mfuwe Constituency where we have Mfuwe Lodge and Chichele Presidential Lodge.

Mr V. Mwale: Sata sazalobamo.

Mr Malama: When you go there you will not believe the way people still live. The President actually went there for a holiday, but I wish he went a few kilometres further to see how people of Chief Nabwalya are suffering. Despite having these lodges in Mfuwe Constituency, this does not benefit any person living in that constituency, which is a shame. One day, I am sorry to say this, people are definitely going to rise against those who are failing to tell the truth and this is worrying me. I am telling you this is quiet serious because people are losing confidence in this leadership. Therefore, it is becoming very difficult to even defend yourself as Member of Parliament in the Opposition because to them they do not see any difference. If they are to rise, they will not differentiate between the Opposition and the Ruling Party. If they are to invade this House, it will be very difficult to make a distinction.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! No invasions here. Just debate, do not talk in that manner it is not acceptable.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. Lastly, I was a little disappointed with my Minister, Hon. Mulongoti, …


Mr Malama: … when, in his answer, he said motorist should be careful when driving on the stretch between Serenje and Mpika. We did not expect such an answer from a cabinet Minister. I expected Hon. Mulongoti to give the people hope even if there are potholes on that road.


Mr Malama: Listen, my constituency starts immediately after Hon. Hamir’s constituency in Serenje and from Serenje, it goes to his neighbour, Hon. Chibamba. My constituency is one of the biggest. From Serenje to Chinsali, it is about 250 kilometres and that is how long my constituency is. It is not a joke. I have witnessed a lot of accidents between Chitambo Mission and Mpika District. That is also part of my constituency. From Mpika District, it is about 150 kilometres to Luangwa where I share the boundary with the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development. Some of these constituencies are just too big. When we bring complaints here, it is important that the Executive listens to what we tell them. They know these problems, but if they continue giving answers which are not satisfactory, it will be very dangerous and difficult for them to go to some of these areas to campaign. If they really enjoy power, they should work harder and learn to invite us so that we sit together and show them where the problem is. Like that, the pressure becomes less.

Madam Speaker, I want to end here and I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda (Kamfinsa): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for enabling me catch your eye. Before I contribute to the debate on the motion on the Floor, I would like to wish the Speaker, staff of the National Assembly and the entire august House a very prosperous New Year, as we start the world crisis together. Kindly, let me make a special request to all of us to make Zambia an even place for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren.

Madam Speaker, we cannot tackle the issue of development without good governance, good political governance, honest economic management, wide civic participation and a constitution in the country.

Madam Speaker, the present vision, as tabled, needs all of us to participate get solutions to it. The present vision on wealth creation was tabled because all areas of concern were tackled. For us to get solutions and achieve what the president said, we need honest economic management and wide participation. The only right way is to desire to have it and if you do not, you will not have it. So, it is entirely up to the relevant ministry …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Let us give an ear to the hon. Member on the Floor. Could the Member get closer to the microphone, please.

Mr Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, it is therefore imperative for the relevant ministries to work harder to ensure the vision is achieved.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is not a poor country per se. In fact, it is one of the richest countries in the Southern African region in particular and Africa in general. However, what it makes it poor is that we do not have enough time to participate and contribute effectively in harnessing the full potential of our natural resources.

Madam Speaker, the President’s Speech indicated a number of areas relating to wealth creation. I will start by pointing out that land is the most important factor for any development in the world. It is a critical factor of production and therefore, it needs to be shared equally. Every citizen in the country should have access to land. We do not want to see Zambian settlers being displaced because of developments that are taking place in their areas. Where are Zambians going to have permanent land? In my opinion, every Zambian must own land. However, I am not denying the fact that investors should be given an opportunity to own land because we need development. Though foreign investment creates better living for our people, we should not forget that we all need land for our own developmental purposes.

Let me now turn to another subject which is very important, which is the line of development. I will start with agriculture. Zambia is the third richest country in the world as far as agriculture potential is concerned, after Brazil and Sudan. For the country to have a healthy and well fed citizenry, the Government should fulfill its assurance of creating farming blocks in every province and give the youths all the necessary inputs. It is high time we improved our fertiliser distribution system.

Dr Machungwa: Yes, yes!

Mr Nyirenda: I would like to propose that female hon. Members of Parliament should work together with the distribution teams in their respective areas to avoid dubious fertiliser distribution by the same people.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: We should also ensure that peasant farmers who get subsidised fertiliser for two or three years, graduate to subsistence farming. Secondly, we should also ensure that no single grain of maize or farm produce is exported. We should also arrest all those who are selling mealie meal across the borders because they are making Zambians starve.

Thirdly, the Government should consider establishing farming blocks in various areas for crops such as pineapples, guavas, lemons, avocados, beans and so on and so forth for processing into final products. In the days of the late John Mufalali we had tarino drink. Tarino drink made the people of North-Western and Northern provinces active in farming because all their produce was sold to the Coca-Cola Company which was making tarino drink. Apart from that fish, kapenta and beans were also utilised by Lyons Brook Bond in Ndola for canning, but today, this is no longer the case. We are all depending on imports. So if we are to improve our food security and income, we should start processing these into finished products within the country rather than depending on outsiders.

Now, coming to another pillar of wealth creation, Zambia has plenty of minerals, but they are not fully utilised as we do not process them into finished products. My suggestion is that we should not export raw materials. Secondly, we should recapitalise the Ndola Copper Refinery for various metals to be refined as was the case some time back. Why can we not refine our minerals?. The moment we export raw materials …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! I think the voices have remained consistently high during consultation. The Chair would like to hear what the hon. Member on the Floor is saying. Can you please lower your voices if you must consult?

You may continue, please.

Mr Nyirenda: I was saying that we should recapitalise the Ndola Copper Refinery so that all our metals can be processed within the country because the moment we export all our raw material, we lose out on getting more revenue for our resources. I am aware that the Chinese have been getting copper ore and other raw materials from which they have been extracting gold and tin which we do not have.

Therefore, there is a need to engage investors who can process these minerals within the country. We should also empower citizens by enabling them have 25 per cent ownership of the mining industry. If Zambians owned 25 per cent in the mines, we would not have a situation like is the case today in Luanshya. Besides, we have Zambians who are capable of running the mines. Why do we not empower them so that they can revamp the mines? We are giving millions of United States Dollars to people running fake companies, and which the Government is aware of, and denying Zambians who can run permanent companies with cheap labour within the country without flying in and out of the country. Moreover, if Zambians were running the mines, all their earnings would be reserved in the country. So the issue of empowering Zambians to run the mines is very vital at this stage.

As I have talked about the four pillars of wealth creation, let me now look at the provision of social services in the country. The code of social services, especially in education and health, is an indicator of effective investment in our country and the world over. I appreciate the fact that the Ministries of Health and Education are providing services in various areas. Of course, we are going to meet the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) by 2015.

However, the problem is that most of the projects that are taking place in various parts of the country are not being completed because money meant for buildings is diverted to some people’s pockets. It is a pity that our controllers, the Permanent Secretaries, seem to be paying a blind eye to such things. It is very unnecessary to wait for the Auditor-General’s report which comes after two years. By then the perpetrators could have vanished. Why do we not ask the Anti-Corruption Commission to intervene and arrest the culprits. On this issue, I feel I am a victim because funds that were supposed to come to my area have not reached and I do not even know who has misappropriated them.

Therefore, I urge the Government to be serious in monitoring such monies. It is no use waiting for the Auditor-General’s report for two years. We need to do the auditing on a quarterly basis, as this will easily arrest the situation unlike the situation is at the moment where we end up with buildings turning into white elephants. There are a lot of buildings in the country which are just white elephants. Someone said Kamfinsa Mobile Unit has water tanks which are not being utilised, and yet millions of Kwacha have been spent to put them up. What are we doing about monitoring such projects?

Madam Speaker, talking about this issue, I will refer to the letters which the late President wrote to every hon. Member of Parliament here in which he urged us to be aware when grants are going to various schools in our areas and where projects are taking place so that we monitor the progress of these projects.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: I think that if we participated in the monitoring of projects, we would reduce the misuse of funds in public institutions. Therefore, through this House, let us all work together to fight this issue of misappropriating funds and delaying projects. I appreciate the people on your right for doing everything possible, but again, the problem is with the controllers. All the failures that we are experiencing can be attributed to this House because we are not helping the people who are coming up with public policies, we are very bad implementers. It is imperative for all us here to ensure that we implement what this speech is contending. I would like to say a speech is a speech, and you can give a very nice speech or it can be hollow, skeleton or anything, but if you do not implement it, it is useless.

I am sure the speech was quite even and can take us somewhere, but the problem is with ourselves. Therefore, I appeal to this House and those outside to join forces to see to it that projects are implemented and we reach the intended goals.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: In conclusion, I would like to appeal to this august House and those outside to contribute effectively and apply their potential to the issues so that we have a solution to create wealth in this nation.

With these few words Madam, I  thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make my maiden speech since my re-election to this august House as Member of Parliament for Mwansabombwe Constituency.

Madam Speaker allow me to sincerely thank the people of Mwansabombwe who I usually call abena Mwata or abena Lunda for, once again, voting for me and putting their trust in me to be their messenger.

Madam, through their vote which gave me a landslide victory, the people of Mwansabombwe have clearly spoken that they are well aware of the rhetoric from this Government that has been going on and that they want real development in their constituency.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Comparing the voting pattern between 2001 and the recent one, what happened in my constituency and many others in Luapula Province is a clear indication that the MMD Government has lost its popularity and the whole province has gone to the Patriotic Front because it has been consistent in all issues since 2001.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: The MMD Government should, therefore, wake up and take development seriously by addressing the poverty situation of the people of Zambia. If this is not done, in 2011, no amount of political manipulation or election dribbling will assist them compel the Zambian people to vote for them. Even the less privileged and vulnerable people in the rural areas will know that their vote is more important than a chitenge material or indeed, any sort of gift. What people are interested in is a leadership that is honest, accountable with integrity, willing and able to take development to their areas.

Madam Speaker, the people of Luapula Province, Mwansabombwe in particular, have been marginalised since independence. People who are forty-four years old in Mwansabombwe cannot point at any project that is a product of independence. Despite having several minerals such as gold, diamonds, copper and manganese just to mention a few, there is no government programme to exploit these resources. Even though a lot of tax payers’ money has been spent by ministers and Presidents on numerous trips to other countries to court investors, we are tired of reading in newspapers that minister so and so court foreign investors while what is on the ground is that these investors are still a pipe dream in majority provinces, especially in the Luapula and Northern provinces.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Madam Speaker, if this Government was serious about creating an enabling environment for both local and foreign investment, we could not have a disaster in Luapula Province. By disaster, I mean the closure of factories that were not replacement at all.

The Mansa Batteries and Mununshi Banana Scheme were closed as well as Kawambwa Tea Estate and the Ice Plantation in Kashikishi.

Madam Speaker, another problem is the road network. The road infrastructure is in a deplorable state and the Government does not seem to care. The only road is Tuta Road to Kashikishi which is now in a bad state because of lack of maintenance. How do you expect our people to travel to conduct business, and very soon these very nice buses, the coaches will stop going to Luapula Province. Since there is no public transport, our people will even be more marginalised.

Madam Speaker, for forty-four years, people of Luapula cannot travel from Samfya to Luwingu. The Colonial Government and Dr Kenneth Kaunda designed a road from Kashikishi to Chienge/Kaputa/Mporokoso/Kasama, so when will this road be constructed? After having pulled out of the provision of public transport, this Government is supposed to maintain the road network or build new roads to open up remotest areas of our country. Where is the Kawambwa/Chipili/Mansa Road and the  Kawambwa/Luwingu and Kawambwa/Mporokoso Road? The list is endless.

Madam Speaker, allow me to talk about health and education. Health and education standards in the province in particular, and the country as a whole are below a par. We have old schools that were built during the colonial days with very few teachers and only one government hospital in Luapula Province with very few health workers. After forty-four years of independence, it is sad that we have such a miserable situation obtaining. It gives no hope to our youths who, at almost every forum, the Government ministers are happily referring them to as future leaders.

Madam Speaker, without good health and education provided to the youths, how will they grow into future leaders? This is a very serious question which demands honest answers and affirmative action.

Finally, allow me to use this august House to remind this Government that my people in Mwansabombwe are in need of clean drinking water. We need boreholes in the constituency so that water borne diseases are eliminated.

It is very sad to note that despite the abundant water that we have in the area, we still cry for the provision of clean water when this could have been by now a thing of the past.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Once again, thank you very much for allowing me to make my speech after re-election to this august House.

Mr Lubinda: Kapembwa is not even listening.

Mr Chitonge: Through you, allow me to tell the people of Mwansabombwe that I will always stand by them and ensure that all their problems are communicated to this …

Dr Katema: Un listening!

Mr Chitonge: … un listening Government. I shall endeavour to provide them with necessary updates as effectively as I can.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, I will first start with the arbitrary which is in the speech about people who passed away last year, the two hon. Members of Parliament and our dear President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. People tend to forget very easily, the man was a great man. I remember when he came to Lusaka some of the people who are seated there now talking called him a cabbage like Hon. Mulongoti and others.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

We will not debate in that line because you are deliberately asking him to come in. Can you engage in open debate?

May you, please, continue?

Mr Nsanda: He was a great man. I was one of the people who fought hard to get him into power. I remember the day I travelled all night when people were breaking the High Court. I brought 2,000 of my men to make it possible for him to sign and he signed and became President. May His Soul Rest in Peace.

Madam Speaker, let me now talk about the economic empowerment. This Government has no remorse for local investors. There is nothing at all. We have local investors such as Hon. Tetamashimba who is running a grinding mill…


Mr Nsanda: … very effectively in Mansa. This investor is among other investors like those in the transport industry.  He has a grinding mill worth K1 billion without any incentives and he is supplying mealie meal to all the people of Luapula Province. The people in the transport industry are buying one big bus at about K2.3 billion and there are no incentives at all for transporters. Meanwhile the Chinese have small rooms where they sell clothes from and they do not pay tax. They have tax incentives. If you go to their shops in Kamwala to buy something, you will not get a receipt for your purchase. What has gone wrong with the Zambian Government? As my colleague said, they are busy going to look for investors, but I have been here now for seven years and it is the same language they have been using and that is looking for investors. What is wrong with the Zambian investor? If you empower the locals here, they can do the job. They are qualified. Most of the people seated here have been to the same schools in Europe and other places. Why bring other people who just want to make money and go away? If Hon. Tetamashimba makes money in Mansa, he is going to build a house in Mansa.

Hon. PF Member: Yes.

Mr Nsanda: If I make money here in Zambia, I will invest it back in Zambia. Even if I am careless, I go and drink my beer, I will still leave the money with Zambian Breweries Limited.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nsanda:  If this Government has to get anything out of Zambians, you must start empowering Zambians. We talked about empowerment and called it black empowerment. I have never seen a penny used from the money for empowerment. I have gone to every office and I do not know who has been empowered. I believe the Indian community has taken all the money while Zambians are suffering.

I remember just out here, the Commissioner of Lands insulting a Minister who was in the House here when he talked about an old building that has been given to a Greek. I do not know what type of collateral he has given to get that piece of land. I also do not know what he is building there because if I go to a bank today, I will be asked for collateral which is equivalent to the building the Greek man is building there.

This is what brings me to the issue of corruption. Big banks have put money in that project. These are Zambian banks. He has not gone outside, but our own banks have given him money. What criteria did they use? However, if I want K1 billion, they will ask me to give them collateral worth K1 billion. Where are we going? This country must wake up.

Hon. Member: Very much so.

Mr Nsanda: If you want us to go forward, use your fellow Zambians because they are going to leave their money in Zambia …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: … and Zambians can be controlled. You cannot control foreigners because they have bank accounts outside the country.

We are losing a lot of money due to the poor road network at the moment because the hon. Minister of Works and Supply is not repairing roads. We are using a lot of spare parts on machinery, starting from trucks to cars. If you go to Cha Cha Cha Road today, you will find a lot of shops dealing in spare parts. They run from one corner to the other. It is a very big business here in Zambia and meanwhile Hon. Mulongoti is not checking how bad the roads are. In fact, the spare parts that are being imported are as a result of the poor road network.

Hon. PF Member: Yes. It is true.

Mr Nsanda: When we import spare parts, we use foreign exchange. Where is this country going to get the foreign exchange from when we are crying that we have no money instead of repairing the roads? If you went to my constituency, Chimwemwe, you will find only one road which passes through Kamunga. There are no roads in my constituency. Thank God, I use that for politicking because I just show the people that this Government has not done anything and the people believe me.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: If roads were repaired, I would not have to talk about them. In fact, this gives us an opportunity of displacing the MMD Government.

Hon. PF Members: Yes.

Mr Nsanda: Please, repair roads. If this is done, we are going to save a lot of money in foreign exchange. We are also not going import this many tyres. People have even gone to the extent of importing sub-standard tyres for our vehicles and these cannot last on our roads. Meanwhile people are looking.

The roads that are constructed have no …

Hon. Members: Pedestrian crossings.

Mr Nsanda: … sidewalks. The same applies to cyclists because there is no provision for them. How many cyclists are dying everyday? Road are designed without considering cyclists. Amongst the roads the ministry is constructing, there is one in Chimwemwe. It was put up last year but it already has potholes. Who is inspecting and giving certificates for these roads? We have a Government inspector. Those officers must be arrested because when a road is made, there is a machine used to punch through to see how much filling has been put inside. At the moment, there is no filling at the bottom of the road and the contactors are getting away with the money because they are foreigners and nobody can talk. If a Zambian makes a mistake like my brother there, it is a song for years and years, Wanshinga whatever, whatever, but we can see some people getting away with money. An example is the Great East Road where my brothers come from. I use the Great East Road all the time. There is one contractor who has been on that road year in and year out. This is Sable Contractor.

I have never seen a contractor who remains on site for fifteen years without finishing constructing the road. The people who built Fort Jameson Road did the work once and the road was usable. There is a road in Luapula Province called Tuta. This road was built by genuine Chinese unlike these who have come now. They constructed that road and the road has been usable since.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nsanda: Madam Speaker, we are losing a lot of foreign exchange from all these things which we cannot see. We cannot see all this money we are losing.

Hon. Opposition Member: It is very sad.

Mr Nsanda: Madam Speaker, let me talk about skills and in particular with regard to farming.  Nsanda is given a loan when he has never gone to any training school for farming. That is what is happening. Fertiliser is given to people who are not trained in farming.

Hon. Opposition Member: Correct!

Mr Nsanda: What amount of yield can you get from an acre?

Hon. Opposition Member: Nothing!

Mr Nsanda: Agriculture is a specialised field like accountancy and the army. People are trained in their respective fields. You cannot get a general in the army and make him a farmer because he will make mistakes.


Mr Nsanda: Give him a gun and he will know what to do with it.


Mr Nsanda: What we need in this country is to open up centres where we can train either peasant or commercial farmers. If you do not know what you are doing in anything, then you will achieve nothing.  One has to go for training even to know how to plant flowers.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: If you are not trained in any job, you cannot perform satisfactorily. That is why you are losing a lot of fertiliser. You can have tonnes of fertiliser and give all of us, including Hon. Mulongoti, …


Mr Nsanda: … but we will not know what to do with it. We will apply it to the crop, but you will not blame us for our yield.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: We could get three cobs of maize because we are not professional farmers. Therefore, you must open training centres in each province so that people learn how to apply fertiliser in order to have a proper yield. The yield has been very bad.

Madam Speaker, I now turn to the issue of land. I become very sad when I hear that there are illegal settlers. When God made this world, there was no illegal settler.

Mr Nsanda: God made this world for all of us, including birds and animals, to live on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Nsanda: How can an hon. Minister wake up one day and decide to demolish the houses of illegal settlers?

Hon. Member: Lileni bakalamba!

Mr Nsanda: Madam Speaker, they then ask where someone’s father lives.  When they are told, they decide to go there and demolish his house.

 The issue of land has caused war. When people in the Gaza Strip realised that some people wanted to get their land, they took to arms. At the root of many wars is the issue of land. We are being displaced here. Though a person has title deeds, the land is taken away and given to an Indian.

Hon. Member: Ku Chifulo!

Mr Nsanda: I have land at the Airport roundabout. The land that is fenced off near the roundabout is mine. I have the title deeds. I gave them to Hon. Mukuma. These are title deeds signed by a Government surveyor. They gave the land to an Indian called Mulla because he gave some people money.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr Nsanda: If a Zambian like myself is displaced in this country, where will I go?

Hon. Member: Imagine?

Mr Nsanda: If I pick up my pick and axes and start fighting, are you going to say that I …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

That language of picking up an axe and fighting is not allowed. Also, be careful how you bring in people who cannot stand here to debate. You better debate in a more general and moderate manner because when you bring in other people, they will also feel they have a right to respond.

You may continue, please.

Mr Nsanda: Madam Speaker, what I am saying is the truth. A Zambian should not be displaced.

Hon. Opposition Members: Right! This is our country.

Mr Nsanda: Even a bird can bite you if you take its nest away.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, adequate guidance has been given. Certain things are not allowed. Can you totally withdraw all the threats of picking up axes and fighting?

Mr Nsanda: I thank you Madam Speaker. I was just giving an example of …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Nsanda: Madam Speaker, I withdraw all the offensive words.

Madam Speaker, I now come to the issue of human rights. We were told, in this speech, that every Zambian has a right to land and other things. When a person becomes eighteen years old, they have a right to get a national registration card and all the necessary documentation. However, this Government has now decided that when a person becomes eighteen, they cannot be given a voter’s card minus a national registration card. 
The Government is saying that due to monetary constraints, they cannot issue anymore voters’ cards. They will not continue the voter registration exercise. The registration of voters must be continued to give all Zambians a chance to choose their leaders.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: It is very important, I urge this Government, to start the voter registration exercise so that our children can have the right to vote.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: I remember when I was in the MMD, we went to register people in Chimwemwe. The machine which was issuing the cards was issuing seven a day. The excuse for that was that the machine was getting hot. When voting started, very few people voted. I felt very bad because I got less votes than I should have. Therefore, let us enable all eligible Zambians to vote.

Madam Speaker, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is not doing very well. If this commission, which belongs to the MMD Government, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: … was in South Africa, Nelson Mandela would have still been on Robben Island today because the new government would never have come in. If this electoral commission was there during the Kaunda era, Kenneth Kaunda would still have been making speeches here today. Kenneth Kaunda was very transparent.

Hon. Opposition Member: True!

Mr Nsanda: He took us through elections which were very transparent. That was the last time we ever had transparent elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: The whole world waited for Obama’s Speech. See how happy people were to hear that speech.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: Give people what belongs to them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: If you do not give them what they want, you will not enjoy being ministers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: You must be popular. People must love you and you must be able to move freely.

Madam Speaker, people have said that this speech was a skeleton. I do not know what type of meat you want to put on it, whether it is nyama soya or something else.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Thank you, Madam Speaker for according me a chance to say a word on the President’s Speech.

Hon. PF Member: Hon. Kazonga, listen!

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, I would have loved the hon. Deputy Minister for Luapula Province to be here.

Mr Lubinda: Ataba!

Mr Chongo: I just wanted to remind him of one thing in case he does not know. I wanted to tell him that Luapula Province is a very rich province, and yet very poor. I wanted to share with him the reasons it is like that.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say a few things on the speech that has been described in many ways. Although to me, it did not highlight specifically what we wanted achieved in 2008 and what has been achieved regarding those target that we set for ourselves. If we did not, what were the reasons for not achieving them and what is the way forward. That message did not come out clearly.

Madam Speaker, I hope my debate is going to be the shortest. I just want to say something concerning mines and mineral development. The President had conceded that there are quite a lot of problems and challenges in the mining industry. Yes, I concede that, lately, the price of copper has dropped probably, in the period of two months, from US$8,000 to US$3,000 per tonne.

Mr Lubinda: Hon Liato, listen!

Mr Chongo: However, I would like us to remind ourselves that the US$3,000 per tonne is still a good price because from time immemorial up to 2004, this country had never enjoyed that price.

Hon. Opposition Members: True!

Mr Chongo: Beyond this, it was actually a bonus. I do not see how a good mine management could have budgeted beyond the US$3,000. I am failing to understand this because the salaries for mine workers have not been increased from 2004. Not even by 20 per cent, and yet we are talking about over 300 per cent from the time they took over the mines. If I remember correctly, in 2000, the price of copper was about US$1,825 per tonne. I feel they were still making a profit even at US$3,000 per tonne. If they are crying, today, that they are making a loss, their claim is unjustifiable to me. It is unjustifiable because having worked in the mines, until the time I became Member of Parliament, I saw what was happening in the mining industry. If a country can allow these mining companies to import labour which is available in this country, then it does not look at the interests of its people. These companies bring people that have the same qualifications as Zambian miners, but their salaries are two poles apart. Zambian miners earn peanuts. I am sure I have already declared interest because I was a miner. Probably then, I was getting K3.5 million if I am not mistaken and the expatriate at my level got twelve times as much. It was about K42 million, of course, with allowances, but that was just a basic salary. This was a plot by the mining houses to externalise the money.

Mr Lubinda: Correct!

Mr Chongo: This would let them take the money back to where they came from. Not only that, with all these local contractors and service providers, how would you allow these mining houses to import even consumable items from outside. It is just a plot to externalise money. At the end of the day, they create an impression that they are not making a profit. They are engaging their own companies from outside to supply materials. Surely, we are not closed in our minds. There are a lot of you that boast that you are well educated, and yet …

Mr Lubinda: Iwe malukula!

Mr Chongo: … an intelligent Government is failing to see all these things.

Mr L. J Mulenga: Get annoyed!

Mr Chongo: The only way you can beat them is by giving them restrictions.

Mr Lubinda: Abena Chipungu!

Mr Chongo: Allow them to bring materials that we cannot provide in this country. That is the way to go.

Madam Speaker, the way forward for the mining industry is to raise production and nothing else. The only way you can beat the expenditure in running the mines is by increasing production. How do you increase production when the labour force you are using is demotivated? They cannot put in their best because you are cheating them. You are giving them peanuts. As a result, you cannot get the production levels that you need. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to look into the welfare of workers and protect them so that they can work with vigour. This will enable the workers to give investors the production that they need with less costs. That is the only way you can raise production. Outside that, how can you raise production because the mines that we have cannot give us the level of production that we need? What do you do? There are a lot of people out there who have mining experience. They have worked in the mines for a long time and know what it means to mine. Why not assist them so that they mine at a small-scale level.

Mr Lubinda: Yes, true.

Mr Chongo: Why not provide them with what they do not have? This is the expertise to go out there and prospect the minerals. We have officers in Lusaka. Those officers do not go in the fields. We need that information. The hon. Minister should be able to provide information on minerals in Mwense and Mfuwe districts. He should be able to tell the grade and the extent of the ore body. He should tell us that this we can mine even by artisan means so that people are empowered.

Madam Speaker, I was reading through the Fifth National Development Plan and it was acknowledged that we can increase production in the mining industry by supporting small-scale miners. You can never go wrong by supporting small-scale miners. Their production can even surpass that of well established mines. Besides they would be creating employment in the areas they are located in.

That is what we want. I just want to lecture the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development on this issue.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! There is no lecture here.


Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, I am sorry for that.

Madam, there have been calls in connection with the closing and abandoning of the mines. Other sectors are calling for the Government to take over the mines and so on and so forth. All those areas they are touching are quite pertinent, but if the mine would probably succumb that we take over the mines or we buy back those mines, are you really sure that those mines are not skeletons? Have you done your homework for you to know that this is what is obtaining in these mines? We have enough reserves and we are ready to pay back US$30 million. When we invest, this copper will not last just for six months. Therefore, are you ready to do that? It is easy for some quarters to call for the Government to nationalize, but it is not that easy because you need to go into those details.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport was saying that if she was given a chance, she would probably hold on to that US$30 million and not throw it into the mines. We would see if it would assist the small-scale miners. You should assist those same miners who are going to lose their jobs. Organise them and help them with those same resources so that they can continue mining. That is what this Government needs to do.

Mr Lubinda: Yah! Osati kungo kamba kamba chabe. Ba malukula.

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, I totally agreed with Hon. Kambwili when he talked about certain mines being taken over or given to the Chinese. It will be suicidal to give those mines to the Chinese, especially, the way I know them now. They are paying their workers the least. This time some are getting K600 to K700 per month, whereas in other established mines like Mopani Copper Mines, they get about K2.5 million. Therefore, I think that would not be a good thing to do. We do not want to bring investors for the sake of having investors in this country. We want investors who are going to respect their workers. Therefore, do not be happy that the Chinese have indicated that they want to come here. You should first give them those conditions.

Mr Lubinda: Bo Liato, mu utwile?

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, it is either you take it or leave it. The other issue that was raised was why certain mining companies were taking concentrates and having them processed in other countries.


Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, they would be foolish to do such a thing. There is a reason why someone would transport concentrates from the Copperbelt all the way to Australia. They are hiding certain precious minerals in those, if you do not know.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, you should stop them the way Katumbi did because he realised they were losing.

Mr Lubinda: Hammer! Talk about it again. Kokola apopene!

Mr Chongo: Thank you, Zayellow!


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair is not aware that there is a conversation somewhere.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Can you speak through the Chair and not through Zayellow.


Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, I am so grateful for that correction. It is Hon. Lubinda.


Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, I have dwelled so much on that issue. This time, I just want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Health. The President mentioned that there is a programme that has been designed to cater for the provision of health services in all the areas. This is very important and I hope it will not end there.

Madam Speaker, I would like to share with the House what I experienced just a few weeks ago when I went to my constituency. Mwense is one district that does not have a hospital. I found a pregnant woman who had been in labour for three days and she could not be taken to the hospital. There was no transport either to take her …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)


The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 23rd January, 2009.