Debates- Friday, 23rd January, 2009

Printer Friendly and PDF


Friday, 23rd January, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, it has come to my attention that some hon. Members and members of the public have developed the tendency of divulging privileged and confidential information to the media. Recently, I have received letters, petitions and other forms of documents on particular matters for my attention. To my dismay, the same information has been reported or reproduced, verbatim, in the print and electronic media.

I am certain that my office or the Office of the Clerk does not make available to the media information contained in the letters, petitions and other documents sent to my office. It can only be reasonably inferred or concluded that either the authors of the documents themselves or other persons connected to the authors make the information available to the media. Hon. Members, this conduct lowers the dignity and standards of the House.

The House may wish to know that any information submitted to my office, a Committee of the House, or Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, constitutes privileged and confidential information. It cannot, therefore, be made available to the media without the authority of the House. Such conduct constitutes an offence under our laws. Section 25 (c) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12, of the Laws of Zambia, provides that:

“Any person who publishes, save by the general or special leave of the Assembly, any paper, report or other document prepared expressly for submission to the Assembly before the same has been laid on the Table of the Assembly shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months, or to both.”

Further, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fifth Edition, on page 758, state as follows:

“Evidence given before, or a document submitted to a Committee, is always treated as confidential and no part thereof can be divulged or shown for reference to anyone who is not a member of the Committee unless and until the same has been laid on the Table. All documents, representations or memoranda addressed to a Committee and received in the secretariat form part of the records of the Committee and can neither be withdrawn nor altered without the knowledge and approval of the Committee.”

Also, Standing Order No. 15 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005, states as follows:

“The Clerk shall have the custody of all votes and proceedings, records and other documents belonging to the Assembly, and he or she shall not take or permit to be taken any such votes and proceedings, records or other documents from the Chamber or offices without the express leave or order of the Assembly.”

It is clear from the above provisions that any information submitted to my office, a Committee of the House or the Office of the Clerk is treated as confidential. Divulging privileged and confidential information on any matter to the media without the authority of the House is a gross contempt of the House and a breach of parliamentary rules and procedure.

Whenever a Member divulges confidential information to the media, he or she opens up the House to premature public scrutiny. This means that the public is misled into drawing premature conclusions based on incomplete information. Parliament has the power and privilege to make independent, authoritative and binding decisions. Hon. Members should not, therefore, erode the confidence the electorate has in the institution.

I strongly warn all hon. Members and the public to desist from this practice. This indiscipline where hon. Members and the public take satisfaction in destroying the integrity of the House will not be tolerated. In future, my office will not take kindly to such conduct because it is an affront on the decorum and dignity of the House. It is important for hon. Members to note that the privileges and immunities granted by the Constitution of Zambia, Cap. 1, of the Laws of Zambia and the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12, of the Laws of Zambia, do not extend to outside Parliament. Any hon. Member who decides to report matters through the public media or other fora cannot claim parliamentary immunities and privileges. That Member takes full responsibility for his or her utterances and will be subjected to the ordinary laws of libel, should his or her statement contain defamatory remarks.

Parliamentary procedure and decorum dictate that an hon. Member or an outsider who seeks the hon. Speaker’s action must accord the House the opportunity to decide on the matter and not resort to using the media. Going to the media constitutes contempt of the House. May I remind hon. Members that the House has, in the past, suspended hon. Members from the House for bringing the House into disrepute.

Further, in accordance with Article 89 of the Constitution, Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia, Members of this House take an oath or affirmation of allegiance to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of Zambia. Similarly, Article 87(1) provides for parliamentary powers, privileges and immunities that this House enjoys in order for it to carry out its functions without undue influence from anyone. Therefore, Members should not go against the oath or affirmation of allegiance or breach the parliamentary powers, privileges and immunities they enjoy in this House. They should know that obedience to the Constitution will maintain the discipline and dignity of the House. Any breach of the Constitution or parliamentary procedures destroys the institution.

I, therefore, strongly warn all hon. Members and the public that any future violation of the rules of the House will invite stern punishment against the culprits. The House will not hesitate to impose severe penalties against any erring Member if that is the only way to restore the dignity and integrity of this House. Let me further warn hon. Members that severe punishment includes suspension from the House. I, therefore, wish to strongly advise all hon. Members to take this as timely advice and desist from any form of unparliamentary conduct.

In conclusion, I wish to state that any correspondence addressed to me which has also been made available to the media will not be acted upon by my office or the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly. I emphasise ─ and hear ye this ─ I wish to state that any correspondence addressed to me which has also been made available to the media will not, I repeat, will not be acted upon by my office or the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!



The Vice President (Mr G Kunda): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 27th January 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Question, if there will be any, thereafter, the House will turn to the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address to this House.

On Wednesday, 28th January, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by Private Member’s motions, if there will be any, then the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Sir, on Thursday, 29th January 2009, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. The House will then conclude the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address. On this day, Mr Speaker, I intend to move a motion to suspend Standing Orders No. 19 and 20 to enable the House meet at 1415 hours in the afternoon of Friday, 30th January, 2009 to allow the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning deliver his Budget Speech for the year 2009.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr B M Mwale): Mr Speaker, the world financial crisis has not spared the mining sector in Zambia. I, therefore, thank you for giving me an opportunity to inform this august House on the impact of the financial crisis on the mining sector and what the Government is doing to address the situation.

The mining sector, which had expanded considerably over the years due to favourable Government policies and high metal prices on the world market, was faced with a number of challenges in 2008. The challenges included inadequate power supply, apprehension over the new fiscal regime and the global financial crisis, which resulted in low demand and hence low prices for mineral commodities.

However, despite these problems, the sector had an estimated growth of 4.9 per cent in 2008 compared to 3.6 per cent recorded in 2007, mainly owing to the increase in copper and cobalt production. Copper production of 480,901 tonnes as at 31st October, 2008, was 3.6 per cent higher than the 462,083 tonnes produced in 2007 during the corresponding period. Similarly, cobalt production at 4,707 tonnes as at 31st October 2008 was 12 per cent higher than the 4,156 tonnes produced during the corresponding period in 2007. In addition, the sector recorded significant gold production amounting to 1,800 kilograms from Kansanshi Mine.

Mr Speaker, regrettably, the Bwana Mkubwa Processing Plant was shut down in 2008, primarily because of the inability to obtain feed copper ore from the Lonshi Mine in the Democratic Republic of Congo. I wish to emphasise that most of the feed to the plant was from the neighbouring country and that the company is making efforts to find significant local sources of the feed.

As a result of the global financial crisis, Luanshya Copper Mines PLC and Chambishi Metals suspended mining and metallurgical operations, respectively. The mine n Luanshya was put on care and maintenance while the Muliashi Copper Project was put on hold in November 2008.  These developments have resulted in the loss of jobs in the sector. Three hundred and forty five workers were laid off at Bwana Mkubwa Processing Plant while 1,716 and 1,011 have lost their jobs at Luanshya Mine and Chambishi Mine, respectively. In addition, we as a Government are alive to the fact that contractual labour to the industry which was providing repair, maintenance and mine development services has also been affected.

I wish to add that, exploration projects have been severely affected across the mining sector. These projects have no revenue streams and are mainly dependant on the stock exchange and loans from banks for financing. The global financial crisis has therefore, negatively impacted on the operations of these projects.

Mr Speaker, the Government recognises the importance mining plays in our economy, as a major contributor to its revenue, employment generation and creation of business opportunities for suppliers to the mining industry, as well as to foreign exchange earnings.

To address the harsh impact of the crisis on the mining sector, the Government constituted a committee of senior officials to critically analyse the situation and to advise on how to manage and resolve the crisis.

In addition, the Government has engaged with the mining companies to identify high cost areas in the production process in an effort to reduce costs while increasing production. I am glad to report that most mining companies have taken up cost cutting measures. These measures include trimming down on expatriate labour, reviewing mining methods and negotiating with suppliers for more competitive pricing.

The cost cutting measures will improve the viability of mining operations especially at times of low metal prices. The point to note is that if production costs had been kept low, the viability of the mining companies would not have been threatened in 2008, more so that copper prices, in particular, have never been lower than they were at the time of privatisation in 2000. The highest copper price in 2008 was at US$8,662 per tonne that is $3.93 per pound, while the lowest in 2008 was US $3,086 per tonne that is $1.40 per pound. These figures were higher than the average copper price of $1,829 per tonne or 83 cents per pound at privatisation in the year 2000. An important measure that has been taken by the Government is to reduce the cost of fuel in the country. As hon. Members of this august House are aware, most of our mines are highly mechanised and use fuel as a major production input. Lowering the cost of fuel therefore, has a positive impact on cost reduction in the mining industry.

Mr Speaker, the Government will do all it can to protect jobs and to safeguard the industry for the future. Where it becomes necessary to suspend mining operations, the Government has instituted measures to protect infrastructure and to ensure that such mines are neither flooded nor vandalised so that they remain viable entities. In this regard, the Mines Safety Department has been directed to frequently monitor the state of the assets which are under care and maintenance.

In the case of Luanshya Copper Mines PLC, on 13th January 2008, the Director of Mines, as approved for under the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2008, imposed the following terms and conditions about the care and maintenance of the mine:

(1) That the suspension of mining operations shall not exceed six months from the 13th January 2009;

(2) that Luanshya Copper Mines PLC shall be required to submit monthly detailed reviews of its business plans taking into account the international metal prices that may be obtaining at the time;

(3) that all employee liabilities shall be settled by 21st January 2009;

(4) that for the purpose of effectively implementing the care and maintenance programme, a minimum of 152 employees shall be required to attend to the following operations: shaft maintenance and flood control operations, electrical, mechanical and compressor operations, pump chamber works, mine ventilation operations, safety, health, environment and quality activities, mine rescue team operations and surface ground monitoring operations;

(5) that Luanshya Copper Mines PLC shall be required to submit monthly reports on the implementation of the care and maintenance programme to the director of mines and the director of mines safety;

(6) that the environment management plan shall remain in force during the suspension of mining operations;

(7) that Luanshya Copper Mines PLC shall not strip mine assets, and that the relocation of any asset shall require the approval of the director of mines;

(8) that any proposed transfer of assets to another developer shall be in accordance with the provisions of Section 32 of the Mines and Minerals Development Act 2008; and

(9) that a mine manager shall be appointed in accordance with the requirements of the mining, explosives and environmental regulations to supervise the care and maintenance programme in addition to the usual responsibility of control, supervision and direction of the mine.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the House that the mining industry has a future. The low copper prices on the international market that have come as a result of the global financial crisis are a temporary phenomenon. The measures being taken by the USA, Europe and other countries against the financial crisis promise a rebound of the prices.

Besides, many investors still have confidence in the sector. For example, Konkola Copper Mines PLC is continuing with the development of the Konkola Deep Mining Project which is due for commissioning in 2010. In addition, the company is looking for substantial concentrates from Kansanshi and other areas to improve capacity utilisation for the new smelter. Further, NFC Africa PLC is investing over $160 million for development of the west ore body and the main ore body on its tenement in Chambishi on the Copperbelt. These developments will see mining reach its peak in Chambishi.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, who created the impression that Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holding (ZCCM-IH) was going to take over the running of Luanshya Mine when he became hon. Minister for the Copperbelt, what the way forward for Luanshya Copper Mines (LCM) is. Are we going to wait for six months? During these six months, is there any consideration to re-engage the same investor that decided to pull out or look for a more reputable investor?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the first thing I learnt about strategic management is that, first, you identify the problem and opportunities. When this serious Government was busy identifying the problem in Luanshya, one hon. Member of this House saw an opportunity to sell scrap metal.


Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, as regards the way forward for Luanshya Copper Mines, I have stated clearly in my statement that this Government has constituted a team of senior officials which will report back to the Government on its findings and recommend the way forward.

Mr Speaker, I would like to put it on record that it is the desire of this Government that the employees of Luanshya and Chambishi should have their jobs back as we would not want to see a situation where they lose jobs as that lowers their esteem.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, as we heard from the statement given by the hon. Minister, the Americans and British are putting together rescue financial packages. With the low level of national debt arising from the debt cancellation for the country, is this Government contemplating approaching the Brent-Wood institutions for new and additional borrowing to support the operations of the mines as was the case before or prior to privatisation?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker …


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr M. Mwale: … listening to the follow-up question of the hon. Member, I am glad to note that he recognises that our Government has no capacity of its own to inject funds in the mining sector. However, I would like to state that this Government would like to see that the mining industry is left to private companies. We have not reached a situation where we have to go out borrowing money as there are other investors who are prepared to take over Luanshya Copper Mines and we are just waiting to conclude some issues and look at the recommendations that will come from the Government team.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, arising from the ministerial statement that the hon. Minister has given, where he stated that 1100 employees have lost their jobs in Luanshya Copper Mines, I would like to find out the actual number of contractual employees that have lost their jobs.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is requesting for details, but in my statement I alluded to this as I stated that this Government is alive to the fact that contractual labour to the industry, providing repair and maintenance and mine development services, has also been affected. I would not be in a position to give the full details.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development for …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … the way he is handling the mines under the current crisis. However, would I remind the hon. Minister that since 1932 when …

Mr Speaker: Order! You may not remind, but ask questions.

Mr Milupi: May I ask the hon. Minister whether this Government has taken cognisance of the fact that since 1932 when the first copper mine was opened in Luanshya in this country, the copper price has always been cyclical? In other words, it goes up and down. Has this Government also recognised that at the time of privatisation, the copper price was US $1,600 per tonne and the production cost in ZCCM was US$2200 per tonne? As of now, or today, the copper price is US$3200 per tonne and the production cost, being claimed by some mines, is US$5500 per tonne. What is the Government doing to ensure that these numbers are brought in line and they are not used to portray a crisis that does not exist because the copper price at the moment is quite profitable?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his follow-up question. As a Government, we are alive to the statistics that obtained in the mining industry before privatisation. One thing that I can categorically state here is that the good copper prices that obtained in our industry sent all of us, managers, to sleep. What I mean by this is that there are local practices that have been obtaining in the industry which were not acceptable in the ZCCM days. May I cite, for the information of the House, how could one justify employing expatriates as a salvage yard manager and chief security officer?

Hon. PF Members: You are the ones allowing them.

Mr M. Mwale: How would one justify having all the services, including the essential mining services, being outsourced? Those are the areas that the Government, and I personally have pointed out to the mining companies …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr M. Mwale: … and I am glad to state that some of them, as you continue questioning and selling scrap (pointing at Mr Kambwili) ….



Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this Government has pointed out a number of issues to these mining companies and they are taking steps to remedy the situation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, arising from the ministerial statement, I would like to find out from …


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwenya: … the hon. Minister what efforts are being put in place concerning environmental issues. I am aware that these mining companies that are folding up and putting our mines under care and maintenance are supposed to meet environmental obligations. So far, LCM has only paid about US$500,000 when it is supposed to pay over US $10 million. What is the position of the Government over environmental issues?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that very important question as environmental issues are at the centre stage worldwide. I have indicated in my ministerial statement that the Director of Mines Safety Department has put in place conditions so that those who are putting mines under care and maintenance should take into account environmental issues.

Mr Speaker, however, I would like to inform the House that there should be no confusion of liabilities that are due to ZCCM-IH and those that are due to the current operators. The current operators are contributing to the fund to ensure that whenever the operations are being decommissioned, we are able to take care of the environmental issues.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, ZCCM-IH is the watchdog for Zambia on these mining companies and for the Government. I would like the hon. Minister to tell this House why ZCCM-IH is so quiet about this crisis. It is not providing the nation with data so that we can be following events correctly.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Member, at one time, used to work for ZCCM-IH. If the hon. Member knows very well how the Government works, ZCCM-IH is a body within the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and hence this ministry is the rightful spokesperson on these issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, the fall in copper prices started at the beginning of November …

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is not a question you are debating, what is the question?

Mr Chota: The question is metal sales are sold on future contracts of three to six months. This arrangement is known as contango. Why did the Government not protect the workers in Luanshya and other mines because the mine investors are still reaping the profits of the contracts they made earlier?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I entirely agree with the hon. Member. Copper prices or the mining industry is cyclical. The only difference is that the upstream and the downstream were so sudden. However, we have always experienced these cycles in the industry in terms of copper prices.

Mr Speaker, in engaging the management of Luanshya Copper Mines in terms of the sales of their copper, they did not have contracts like the one he has stated in that they needed to sell their copper on the spot market.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, why is it that the mining investors are hiding by not allowing this Government or the Ministers of Labour and Social Security and Mines and Minerals Development to enter their plants? What are they hiding in their plants?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, that is an issue that we as a Government are taking very seriously. I would like to state, here, that as a Government, we will not accept a situation where management bars Government officials from visiting any mining operation. It is in the Mines and Minerals Act, and even in the other Acts that any Government official can visit any operation in this country without any hindrance.

Mr Speaker, it is a warning that is being sent through you that whoever bars Government officials will not receive any sympathetic hearing to this Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker is the Government aware that Mopani Copper Mines, particularly in Mufulira, is seriously considering closing the Mining and Concentrator departments? If so, is Mopani or any other mining company that wants to do so  able to surrender its assets back to the Government?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that information because we, as a Government, do not have it officially. However, it will be a recognition of the Zambian people that these assets belong to them rather than subjecting our people to what is going on in Luanshya that whoever wants to close an operation surrenders them to the Government. That will be a better course than subjecting our people to economic hardships.

Mr Speaker, what the hon. Member has suggested will show that that investor knows both the economic and social importance of the mining industry on the Copperbelt. We, as a Government, will be more than pleased to have any investor who wants to hand over the assets.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, this economic meltdown has brought different challenges to this country. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if this Government has taken steps to make sure that people who were contributing to the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) through these mines have their money remitted to this company because in most of the cases we have seen that companies were pretending that they were remitting money to NAPSA and yet that was not the case.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the technical committee which was constituted is looking at issues such as even the ones that the hon. Member has talked about. I would like to assure this House that this Government will urge whoever would like to suspend or close their operations that they meet the obligations to the state which include Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has assured this House that no equipment will be moved from the mines without the say so of the Director of Mines. I want to know, seeing and taking into account the fact that the Director of Mines lives in Lusaka, who is on the ground to ensure that there is a report given to the director as soon as somebody tries to misbehave on the Copperbelt.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, we have three departments namely; Mines Development Department, Geological Survey Department and Mine Safety Department, based on the Copperbelt.

Mr Speaker, in this modern age of easy of communication of internet and fax, The Mine Safety Department, which is on the Copperbelt in Kitwe, will be able to represent the Director of Mines who is based here in Lusaka. However, it does not mean that the Director of Mines Development Department does not take trips to the Copperbelt.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, my question has been ably raised by …


Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister highlighted some challenges that will be faced by Konkola Deep, one of which is the sourcing of money and opening up of the smelter. However, in his statement, he indicated to this House that about 1,104 workers at some smelter in Chambishi have lost employment. Would it not be prudent, hon. Minister, that instead the Konkola operation should look at the smelter that has been abandoned so that it can be activated?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that KCM operates these separate business units as opposed to Luanshya and Chambishi Copper mines. The smelter in Nchanga has already been commissioned and is already producing copper. The smelter in Chambishi, which has been put under care and maintenance, can resume operations as and when feed is available.

Mr Speaker, other measures will be taken care of this year. We are sure that even Chambeshi smelter will come on stream as there will be enough feed from other operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, copper mining is a finite activity. Copper is an asset that finishes. What ultimate or long-term plans is the Government and your ministry putting into place to ensure that when these precious rocks being taken out of the ground are no longer there, life in Luanshya will still continue normally?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this Government has different wings and one of the options that I am sure the hon. Member could have heard yesterday us encouraging business people going to Luanshya to invest in other business ventures other than mining. This is why the Government has declared Luanshya an economic zone that needs investment. However, even my ministry would like to move away from metal mining, hence us emphasizing intensifying petroleum exploration this year so that soon or later as we keep hitting the ground, we can strike into revenue earner for the Government.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}



Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, recently, we saw demonstrations in Kafue concerning the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ). The company’s former employees are demonstrating about the arrears owed to them. When is this Government going to pay these people their money?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the NCZ matter is of great concern to Government and we are alive to the situation in Kafue. As a caring Government, we have made a monitory provision in this year’s budget to clear the NCZ arrears. We are looking into that matter actively.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, with the current revelations on the Zambian Airways saga and its shareholders, is the Government intending to renew the contract of the Nchito Brothers on the Task Force since they own a stake in the company?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thought the Patriotic Front (PF) supports The Post…

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

The Vice-President: …and Zambian Airways. However, I wish to say that the two roles of being prosecutors on the Task Force and shareholders of Zambian Airways are not related. However, I want to say is that in the fight against corruption, we have prepared a National Anti-Corruption Policy in which we will review the fight in its entirety. We are looking at which institutions will be involved in the fight, 
which ones will provide leadership and, of course, the prosecutors to be used. We shall consider whether in this new arrangement, the prosecutors on the Task Force will be fused into the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). The fight against corruption is ongoing, although, we shall continually review it.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, when is the Government going to recapitalise the Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company (CWSC) which has been sued by the people of Isoka and the whole of Northern Province? When is the Government going to recapitalise this company like it did to other utility companies like Mulonga Water and Sewerage Company (MWSC)? The water crisis in Isoka has become the order of the day.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I understand that some boards have been dissolved while others are being reconstituted. In the case of CWSC, a new board will be put in place which shall take care of the issues raised by the hon. Member.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the Government in 2006 through the Ministry of Communications and Transport did allocate K1 billion to go towards the procurement of a vessel for the Bangweulu area where we have six parliamentary constituencies. To date, the Government has not yet done so. May I learn from the Vice President, the Government’s position over the issue.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, some money was allocated to that activity. However, it was later discovered that the money was not enough. Government intends to provide more money towards that activity so that we can purchase the vessel soon.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the Vice-President is aware that as a result of climate change, many parts of Western Province will suffer severe flooding every year, including this year. Is he aware that in Western Province which voted for his party overwhelmingly, there is chronic hunger which starts at the beginning of December? Would he tell this House when the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) which is directly under his office is going to send relief food to the people of Western Province?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the early flooding is of course an advantage for Western Province because of the Kuomboka Ceremony…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … which we treasure as a national ceremony.

Now, as regards the issue of relief food for Western Province, Mr Speaker, I wish to inform hon. Members that we did assessments in 2007 and 2008 and we are aware of the food security and vulnerability situation throughout the country including Western Province. We are already working in twenty-nine districts and I believe that issues to do with Western Province are also taken care of in that programme. However, due to the concerns raised by the hon. Member, I will particularly look at the statistics regarding Western Province and see what we can do.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, my question may be related to that of the hon. Member for Luena. It is on record that the Western Province is classified as the poorest province in the country. In view of this circumstance, is there any deliberate plan by the Government aimed at improving the economic status of the province?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is aware that the Budget is prepared to cater for the entire country. We are concerned about issues of poverty, the dilapidation and lack of infrastructure throughout the country. Of course, there are areas which require much more attention than others, but we still have to be equitable in the way we distribute resources. Within that framework I have explained, the Western Province should fit in squarely. If there are any unique aspects which have to be addressed within the Budget, we will do so depending on the availability of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, could we learn from the Vice President, the Government’s position on the political state of affairs in neighbouring Zimbabwe, especially that Zimbabwe at one time had accused Zambia and Botswana of wanting to launch a military attack against it and two days ago another initiative to form a government of national unity failed.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Zimbabwean problem is being resolved within the auspices of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and the African Union (AU) to which we are members.

Zambia believes in good neighbourliness and the people of Zimbabwe are our brothers and we continue to engage them through these organs which I have stated. We have no problem with the people of Zimbabwe.

In fact, there will be a SADC Heads of State meeting on Monday to deal with the problem of Zimbabwe.

Mr Speaker, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has briefed this House in the recent past on how we are tackling the issue of Zimbabwe.

Of course, the primary responsibility to resolve the Zimbabwean problem lies with the people of Zimbabwe themselves, but because we are within the SADC family, there are ways and means in which we can engage and try to assist.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government is considering reducing the number of ministers and its many seminars in 2009 in the wake of the global economic crisis.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not agree that the Cabinet is too big. It is of the right size, broadly representative and very effective.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: As regards the issue of cutting costs on seminars, etc, those are matters which we have to look into. In any case, the Budget will come to this august House and you will see what measures we have taken in that direction. It is a good idea that we should cut down on expenditure. Of course, not through reducing Cabinet because it is of the right size.

I thank you, Sir

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, the Defence Act allows for the regulation and trial of military personnel in our country. Is there some thought by this Government to allow for Court Marshals to take centre stage in the trial of senior military personnel in our country as provided for by the law? Making military personal face the law in ordinary courts is disrespecting them. Such a tendency has caused a lot of problems in other African countries. Is there a thought by the Government to address the dignity of military personnel when putting them on trial by using court marshals?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Thank you for that very important question. I know that under the Defence Act, there is a provision for court marshals and we have read in the paper that those tribunals are constituted from time to time to handle appropriate cases. However, I will not go further than that and talk about cases involving senior military personal that are in courts of law. I will not go into that area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi tezhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Vice-President whether he is aware that in Itezhi tezhi, 148 metric tonnes of maize coming from his office which are meant for the starving Itezhi tezhi people where deaths have even been reported are still marooned despite the matter having been brought to the attention of the provincial and district administrations. Can His Honour the Vice-President intervene?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am aware of what the hon. Member is talking about. In fact, I saw him on Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) television complaining to the hon. Minister for the Southern Province about the same problem. The Hon. Minister is also looking into that matter. We are looking into that matter.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Zulu (Bwanamukubwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Vice-President when the Gabon Air Disaster Report will be released to the public. It has taken too long.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think there has been some misinformation about the Gabon Air Disaster Report.

I remember releasing the report when I was Minister of Justice and Attorney-General in this very House. I remember vividly that day as would those who were in the previous House, when Dr. Nevers Mumba was Vice-President. I was taken sick from this Chamber during my presentation of the report on that day.


The Vice-President: I read it half way.


The Vice-President: That is what happened on that day. However, then Leader of Government Business continued from where I had ended and released the report. The report is there at the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member can give us more details on that matter although I am told that that matter is being looked into.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, following the shooting of an innocent boy in Kankoyo Constituency, is the Government seriously considering engaging Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) to fence off the area where the so-called illegal mining activities are carried out?

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and the relevant security agencies are looking into that matter. Of course, as an hon. Member of Parliament, you should discourage our citizens from illegal mining.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}




31. Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) what the water consumption demand for the country was, province by province;

(b) how much money was required to satisfy the demand above; and

(c) when the Government would meet this demand.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the indicated figures for water consumption, province by province are as follows:

Lusaka Province

Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company, 80 million cubic metres per year

Towns not supplied by Lusaka Water and Sewerage, 1.5 million cubic metres per year

Copperbelt Province

Nkana Water and Sewerage Company, 85.2 million cubic metres per year

Kafubu Water and Sewerage Company, 55.8 million cubic metres per year

Mulonga Water and Sewerage Company, 40 million cubic metres per year

Central Province

Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company, 17.7 million cubic metres per year

Southern Province

Southern Water and Sewerage Company, 17.4 million cubic metres per year

Northern Province 

Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company, 11 million cubic metres per year

North-Western Province

North-Western Water and Sewerage Company, 3.2 million cubic metres per year

Western Province

Western Water and Sewerage Company, 5.5 million cubic metres per year

Eastern Province

Chipata Water and Sewerage Company, 2.7 million cubic metres per year

Towns not supplied by Chipata Water and Sewerage Company, 1 million cubic metres per year.

Luapula Province

No utility has been established but the consumption is about 6.9 million cubic metres per year.

Sir, the total is 327.9 million cubic metres per year.

Mr Speaker, the amount of money required to satisfy the demand above is about K1,143,070,000,000.

Mr Speaker, the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) 2006 to 2010 envisages that the investment in water and sanitation should be at full capacity by 2015. However, the provision of water and sanitation is an on-going process as new settlements are being developed and some squatter areas are being upgraded.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

 I just want to remind hon. Members that the public address system we are using is very sensitive. As you can notice, each of them has a loud speaker. Even though your microphone may not be on, there is still some feedback which, as you discuss with an hon. Member next to you or anywhere else, results in information going round the Chamber. There are so many hon. Members consulting bilaterally. The feedback coming through the system is so loud that the Chamber cannot follow the debates around the Chamber. Hon. Members are, therefore, requested to consult very quietly if they have to.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for attempting to answer this question. I realise that in his answer, he quoted, by and large, areas that are serviced by utility companies only. I also know that 70 per cent of the population of this country lives in rural areas where these utility companies do not exist. I wanted to know the entire country’s water requirement and not what the utility companies are giving. In this regard, I find it difficult to make a follow-up question because he has not even attempted to answer my question half way. Could he, therefore, consider going back to research in order to come and give me a satisfactory answer.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, in my response, in provinces like Lusaka, we indicated the towns that are not supplied by the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company. This is because there are specific areas where water is supplied through means that we are able to quantify. It is not easy for the ministry to measure the amount of water people get from various wells in the whole country. We are able to get these figures because they are quantifiable and we are able to make specific arguments that this is the requirement for this area.
I thank you, Sir.


32. Mr Simuusa asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development what the status of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings ZCCM-IH) gemstone project was.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, ZCCM-IH has been carrying out explorations under prospecting licence No. PLLS 244 in Lufwanyama District to establish the potential of this property for gemstone or emerald mineralisation and occurrences. Since inception of this project in 2004, the following exploration activities have been undertaken:

(a) erection of the boundary beacons;

(b) surface geological mapping;

(c) exposures sampling for geochemical and petrographic study;

(d) ground geophysical (radiometric and magnet) surveys; and

(e) pitting and rock sampling for geochemical and petrography study.

Mr Speaker, a geological report indicating the existence of rock units consisting of regional emerald hosting rocks and a series of pegmatite rocks, which supports the potential for emerald mineralisation and occurrence, was produced in 2007.

Currently, follow-up exploration activities have been carried out as follows:

(a) diamond drilling in four different zones of economic interest;

(b) diamond drill core logging and sampling;

(c) geochemical laboratory tests of drill core samples have been completed; and

(d) petrographic laboratory test results of the drill core samples are expected by the first quarter of 2009.

Mr Speaker, meanwhile, pitting and trenching in selected target areas is underway to intersect veins of possible emerald mineralisation.

The project is in its final stage of exploration awaiting geochemical and petrographic analyses to be incorporated in the previous technical information. The resultant mineralisation potential model is expected to reveal the tangible mineralogical trends and potential of PLLS 244. The exploration report is expected to be ready by the end of 2009.

Upon completion of the mineralisation potential, model and results deemed favourable, mining is expected to commence.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell me if emeralds or gemstones have been discovered in this exploration.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, regional emeralds hosting rocks and a series of pegmatite rocks which support the potential for emerald mineralisation and occurrence were produced in 2007. This indicates that there is potential for emerald occurrence in the area, but not any production as yet.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how much the Government has benefited since it came into power, in cash terms, from the Senegalese that they have given the emerald mines on the Copperbelt.

Mr Speaker: Order! That borders on an insinuation. Can the hon. Minister of Minerals Development exculpate himself.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Chimwemwe should submit his question because that is a new question.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development whether the companies that are carrying out the explorations will be the ones to mine the minerals in those areas.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, in this case, ZCCM-IH is carrying out its own exploration works. At this stage, we are not in a position to state whether we are going to contract   a miner or not. However, I presume, they will carry out the mining themselves.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why it has taken the Government more than forty-four years to think of investing in gemstones since gemstones in Zambia are of high grade and lucrative . Have we not been losing revenue?

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Nchanga is telling us that he is of generation “Y” because if he was a baby boomer, he would have known that there was the Industrial Development Corporation (INDECO) small mine which was a Government entity.  There was also Kagem Mine which was also a Government entity until privatisation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker


33. Mr Simuusa (Nchanga) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development who were the holders of the mining rights for the waste dumps in Chingola that were taken over by the ZCCM-IH at the time of the privatisation of the mines but were recently offered to some Chingola residents.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that when the privatisation of the mines was completed on 31st March 2000, the Government entered into a defunct areas option…


Mr Speaker: Order!

 I want the House to listen to the hon. Minister. You are all debating while seated and that makes it impossible to understand what the hon. Minister is saying. I will move on to the next question if the House is not interested in listening to the answer that has been prepared for the attention of this House and the nation at large.

Could the hon. Minister start all over again.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that when the privatisation of the mines was completed on 31st March, 2000, the Government entered into a defunct areas option agreement with Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM).

In this agreement, ZCCM-IH had the obligation to undertake the environmental clean-up and decommissioning of these defunct facilities. Thereafter, KCM would have the option, under the agreement, to take ownership of all or part of the defunct areas. In this case, the defunct areas referred to all the tailings and overburden dumps in Chingola.

Mr Speaker, in exercising this agreement, KCM requested GRZ/ZCCM-IH to transfer all the dumps, including the surface rights, to it. However, the Government entered into negotiations with KCM with a view to providing economic empowerment to Zambians. As a result, KCM surrendered the following defunct facilities to the Government:

(a) Fitula Open Pit ; and

(b) five overburden dumps namely: OB 9, OB 10, OB 11, OB 13 and OB 15.

These defunct facilities have been offered to mining associations on the Copperbelt namely:

(a) Miners Welfare Trust;

(b) Copperbelt Small-Scale Miners Association;

(c) Association for the Welfare of Former Miners in Zambia; and

(d) The Chingola Small-Scale Copper Miners Association.

Mr Speaker, the Government has not yet granted mining rights over the facilities as the associations are discussing how best these facilities can be allocated to them.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to tell the House why they went against a directive from the then President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, to empower Zambians by selling these dumps to Chingola residents and other Zambians. These dumps were actually offered to Chingola residents. The offer letters were circulated. Why were these offer letters withdrawn and offers later given to these associations. Most of these associations are controlled by MMD officials. I would like the hon. Minister to tell this House why the offer letters were withdrawn. I would also like him to inform the House why these associations are currently discussing that to supply KCM with copper from these dumps, you must go through a company owned by a prominent political figure.

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister list down the centres he has mentioned in his reply?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, the following are the centres in the country:

1. Copperbelt Province:

Mufulira School for Continuing Education
Ndola School for Continuing Education
Chingola School for Continuing Education
Luanshya School for Continuing Education

2. Luapula Province:

Mansa School for Continuing Education
Kasapo School for Continuing Education

3. Northern Province:

Kasama School for Continuing Education
Kaputa School for Continuing Education

4. North-Western Province:

Solwezi School for Continuing Education

5. Western Province:

Mongu School for Continuing Education

6. Southern Province:

Mazabuka School for Continuing Education

7. Eastern Province:

Chipata School for Continuing Education

8. Central Province:

Kabwe School for Continuing Education

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, following the answer given by the hon. Minister, I have noticed that all the centres that he mentioned were there in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days and since then, the population has increased. Is the MMD Government thinking of opening up new centres?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, as we have already stated in our reply, we are going to open up new centres as soon as funds are available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}


35. Mr Chazangwe asked the Minister of Agriculture and co-operatives:

(a) what immediate plans the Ministry had to increase the cattle population which had drastically reduced country-wide due to various diseases over the years; and

(b) whether any financial institutions would be established to provide loans for the cattle re-stocking programme in order to increase the cattle population in Zambia.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, the ministry has a number of immediate plans and/or objectives meant to increase the cattle population which has been depleted by disease outbreaks in the country. These include:

(i) intensification of livestock disease control through vaccinations and slaughter campaigns for Foot and Mouth Disease, Contagious Bovine Pleuro Pneumonia, African Swine Fever and Corridor Disease;

(ii) to institute livestock movement controls or check-points …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was on the second point which is:

(ii) to institute livestock movement controls or check-points at Nalusanga, Kapiri Mposhi, Kafue, Luangwa and Mutenda;

(iii) establishment of disease-free zones in selected areas; and

(iv) recruitment of additional staff at veterinaries, rehabilitation of veterinary infrastructure such as dip tanks, camp houses and offices, and improvement of extension services to farmers at camp level.

Sir, there are no immediate plans to establish financial institutions to provide loans for the cattle re-stocking programme. However, livestock farmers as groups, in liaison with the Zambian National Farmers Union, are free to access financial assistance from any lending institution.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, each time such a question is asked in this House, we receive something that sounds like a national anthem. We always get the same answer.


Mr Chazangwe: Could the hon. Minister answer this question categorically and tell us what immediate plans he has to assist peasant farmers who have no resources to produce food to feed themselves and the nation as a whole.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Livestock and Veterinary Services) (Mr Machila): Mr Speaker, it does not sound anything like a national anthem to me. However, we are consistent with the answer because that is the truth of the matter. It is fact that livestock diseases remain the biggest challenge to the industry.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, now that we have a separate ministry in charge of livestock and veterinary services, of course, I commend Government that, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … I would like to find out whether the Government has any plans of putting up vaccine centres country-wide in order to combat these animal diseases effectively and stop importing expensive vaccines from Botswana and other countries.
Mr Machila: Mr Speaker, there are no immediate plans to put up  vaccine centres on the basis that it is cost effective to simply import the medicines rather than to incur the capital expense of establishing vaccine centres.

I thank you, Sir.




(Debate resumed)

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was just expressing my lamentations especially on the provision of health services in the rural parts of this country. I was just indicating to the hon. Minister of Health the situation the I found and this is actually the picture of what is happening even elsewhere where we do not have proper health centres or hospitals like in Mwense where a woman was in labour for three days but there was no immediate help because the hospital is 150 km away from Mwense and this is in Mansa. Transport was also not there because there was no fuel since the grants to the district had finished.

Mr Speaker, I am indicating to the hon. Minister that if we had such a facility at the hospital, we would be attending to such cases promptly and I am appealing to him to look into this matter.

Mr Speaker, I also observed one serious anomaly. As per policy of the Ministry of Health, it was discovered that the Zambia registered nurses and midwives who are well trained and whom basically I would say that they are diploma holders but who are not sent to health centres that are away from the district centre. I am meant to believe that a well trained cadre should be readily available to the patients, especially with this problem of not having transport so that you do not have to wait for days before you can deliver this patient to a district centre.

Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to re-look into this by sending these well trained nurses and other medical personnel everywhere across the country. We need not think that well trained doctors and nurses cannot go into the bush. What is required is to give proper incentives that would attract these cadres everywhere. Minus this, there could be some resistance on going there. Mr Speaker, with those few words, now that I have seen the hon. Minister for Luapula Province, I would like to welcome him and tell him that there are a lot of challenges in the province which I hope he is going to surmount. It is a pity because whenever we look, set and establish, certain changes come in. I do not want to question the appointments that maybe happening but I would like to say that we had a very hardworking Permanent Secretary, unfortunately he has been removed.

Mr Speaker, I just hope the one who has been brought to Luapula Province will still face the challenges. Mr Minister, it is your duty to ensure that you coordinate hon. Members of Parliament …

Mr Speaker: Order! Address the Chair and not the hon. Minister.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister that he effectively coordinates the efforts of hon. Members of Parliament because there is a picture in Luapula where probably hon. Members in Mansa are a province and that all the decisions should be based on them when we all have an equal share in the province.

I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Presidential Speech that was presented by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia. Mr Speaker, I would like to start by quoting from the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. I would like to specifically quote Article 51 of the Constitution of Zambia which states, ‘the Cabinet and Deputy Ministers shall be held accountable collectively to the National Assembly’.

Mr Speaker, I quote this particular Article of the Constitution in relation to the misplaced arrogance that is being displayed by certain cabinet and deputy Ministers in this House.

Mr Speaker, I would like to express my indignation at the callousness of the various statements that have been made by the Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice President pertaining to the unfortunate suffering people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, it is a matter of fact to note that it is dehumanising to be starving. It is dehumanising to be poverty stricken but alas we have Ministers who are supposed to be speaking on behalf of Government, who are supposed to be representing the people of Zambia and who with impunity tease the people of Zambia. How can such an hon. Minister stand before this august House and start making mischievous statements pertaining to the plight of the people.

Mr Speaker, there is no sane Zambian who would be proud to be receiving relief food. There is no Zambian who would want to be begging for food, none at all. Mr Speaker, speaking for my constituency, the people of Monze are proud people who never wanted to receive relief food from anybody, not even from Government. But the situation they found themselves in is a result of natural disasters and failure of Government policies.

Mr Speaker, we have been advising Government that it is prudent for them to be providing farming inputs to the people so that they can provide for themselves but unfortunately some of our colleagues on your right take pride in seeing the people begging for food.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, when the people ask for relief food which is a right on their part and the responsibility of Government to provide in times of need, they start mocking the people. I know that some of them are comedians but this is not a House of comedy or a theatre.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am happy to note that His Honour the Vice President is humble and sober. The statements that are coming from him are statements that take cognisant of the plight of the people but those who are under him in his office had even the impunity to go on television and mention to the state and the nation at large that the people of Southern Province are eating wild roots because they want energy.


Why are they failing to follow basic laws? I am aware that on the right side, there are eminent lawyers who are supposed to advise on issues pertaining to the Local Government system. Unfortunately, there is chaos and illegalities going on in the Local Government system. We should address the situation, as it is not too late. Section 16 (2) of the Local Government Act is very clear. It states that the mayoral and chairperson elections shall be held at the first sitting of a council after 1st September and before the end of the year. Alas, statements have been made that the elections are being postponed because of cholera. This country has been having cholera for some time. Are we saying that the laws and governance shall be suspended because of cholera?

Mr Speaker, the Vice-President is reputed to be a defender of human rights and an eminent lawyer who understands the law of this country. I would like to advise and appeal to him to ensure that he redresses the maladies that are happening in this country.

Mr Speaker, I also want to state that our colleagues on your right believe in appeasement. Hearing the comments that are coming from certain hon. Members of Cabinet, it shows that, actually ─ if it was not for lack of better words, I would have said it but ….

Hon. Opposition Members: Just say it.

Mr Mwiimbu: I will say it. It is the low calibre of certain hon. Members of Cabinet …

Mr Speaker: Order!


Mr Speaker: Order! You will unsay it.

Mr Mwiimbu: I have unsaid it, Mr Speaker.


Mr D. Mwila: How?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the health situation in this country has reached unacceptable levels. The medical facilities which are obtaining in Zambia are below par. The situation obtaining in our hospitals is unacceptable. Our gallant men and women, who are ably qualified, are working under very difficult situations. This Government has failed them. It is not providing the required tools to ensure that the medical facilities are acceptable.

Mr Speaker, I will give an example of the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). The health facilities at UTH are pathetic, to say the least. The medical doctors and nurses at UTH are working under deplorable conditions. Relatives of patients are made to cater for the sick in hospital. They are the ones who sit by the bedside caring for the sick. Are those the medical facilities we would want to have in this country?

Mr Beene: No, no.

Mr Mwiimbu: We, leaders, are privileged. We may have the privilege to be evacuated to better health facilities out of the country. What about the general populace out there that do not have such facilities? Our people are dying from illnesses which are treatable. Due to the failure of this Government, everyday a number of people are dying in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, in Lusaka, everyday the burials are around 100 people. If 100 people are buried everyday, by the end of the month 3,100 would have been buried. At the end of year, more than 36,000 people would have been buried. Why should we allow such a situation to obtain in Zambia? Why should we allow our people to be dying from preventable diseases?

Mr Speaker, even people that have been afflicted by the HIV/AIDS pandemic are being discharged from hospitals and placed under the care of their relatives. Do the hon. Members on your right honestly think that our relatives have the capacity and knowledge to care for those people who are terminally ill? Why are we running away from our responsibilities? I doubt if there is anyone here who has never lost a relative from the situations obtaining.

Mr Speaker, I would like our colleagues to jack up the standards of the services we provide in this country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, I also wish to add my voice to this important Motion. I want to say that the speech delivered by our Republican President is comprehensive, a masterpiece and a tune of various tones which has produced a harmonious melody giving hope to our country.


Mr Chilembo: It is a speech which will make this country stand up again and move forward. It is common knowledge that the world is now suffering from a financial crisis but for others, what is going on is a mystery and they are looking for all sorts of explanations. To some it is mere witchcraft at play …


Mr Chilembo: …and that is why we are where we are.

Hon. MMD Members: Mwila!

Mr Chilembo: To some, the reason is because the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) won the Presidential elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilembo: That is why from what we are hearing, there is no real effort by some hon. Members of the Opposition to help in addressing the situation. What I want to say is that when a nation is faced with the situation we are in now, we must all come together and work as one to find the answers that can make us move forward. There are some issues on which, as a country, we must have one voice. This is why in developed democracies like the United State of America, it does not matter whether it is the democrats or republicans coming into power. On certain issues, it is well known what position all Americans will take. Each party’s stand is known whether it is on Israel, Africa and so forth. However, with us here, we always seem to be looking for a vote and this is why we can be so inconsistent. Today, one would claim to support the one China policy, and when it is to his or her advantage, turn against it and continue changing positions over and over again.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker, as hon. Members, I appeal that, as a country, we speak with one voice where certain matters are concerned. Politicking is not the answer all the time. Let us make sure that our politics do not go beyond the needs and expectations of our people.

I wish to pick an aspect from the Presidential Speech which covered governance. At page 59, first paragraph, the President had this to say and I quote:

“We shall also continue upholding the rule of law and policy of zero tolerance to corruption.”

There are some people who were speculating that if President Rupiah Banda came into power, the fight against corruption might be weakened. I am glad that he made it very clear when he stated that this fight shall continue. He also stated that institutions such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) will be strengthened and more funding will be given to these institutions. I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Members that when the budget comes, we support this move.

I wish to commend Hon. Lubinda for the efforts he is making in the fight against corruption through the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC).

Mr Shakafuswa: Question!


Mr Chilembo: I want him to continue working as he has done, but I also wish to appeal to him to re-influence his party to come out very strongly on the issue of corruption. In fact, I would invite various political parties to share with us their vision on this important subject of fighting corruption. What are our manifestos saying about this or if they are silent, do we have any source? His Honour the Vice-President just indicated that the Government, through the Ministry of Justice, is working on an Anti-Corruption Policy. Please, come forward. What are your thoughts? We want to hear them because this fight is not only for the MMD Government, but for all of us. As we all know, corruption is a cancer. We may approve monies in the budget, but if we let corruption reign, then our efforts will be futile because the money will not reach the people. Therefore, let us, please, work as one and come up with ways in which we can curb corruption. It is not always a question of arresting people. We also want ideas on how we can prevent corruption from occurring.

I am glad we passed a law here on procurement to improve the tender procedures and so on. We also want to look at the other aspects of the law like licensing because when you make things difficult like obtaining a simple licence, you have to go round and round the whole day, and that is why people get tempted to look for other ways of finding an answer. Let us think of ways of preventing corruption, which is a big problem, and which we are committed to having resolved. As MMD Government, we will continue this fight against corruption. Those who were hoping to the contrary, I am sure it was a very disappointing day when the President made it clear that this fight continues and, in fact, the ACC will be strengthened further.

I also wish to turn to the idea of Zambia, through the African Peer Review Mechanism’s, (APRM) intention to improve on the issue of governance. As you may all know, on 27th January, 2006 Zambia signed to the African Peer Review Mechanism.

Hon. Members, as you all are aware, this is a process meant to assist the country and its leadership in developing credit for governance systems in the symmetrical areas of democracy and new governance, economic governance and management, special economic development and corporate governance. All these aspects were alluded to by His Excellence the President in his speech.

Mr Speaker, with the establishment of the National Governing Council on 8th September, 2008, substantial progress has been made in realising the objectives of the APRM. As a ministry, we identify hon. Members of Parliament as major stakeholders in the APRM process. This is why as far back as 3rd May, 2008, the Ministry of Justice held a seminar with hon. Members of Parliament. We would appreciate getting a feedback from the hon. Members of Parliament regarding the reaction of their electorates on the matters or issues which were learnt and raised at that seminar. We will be getting submissions countrywide on the various issues relating to governance, and we are hoping that by the end of the year, 2009, we should have a full report, and we hope that by January, 2010, we will have this report tabled before the Heads of State of the African Union. As a Government, we have opened ourselves to scrutiny and we are saying other heads of states can look at what is going on in Zambia and that they will be free to praise us where we are doing well. Where we not doing well, they will be at liberty to say so. Of course, the report we are talking about will contain various matters that you, hon. Members, and your electorates will have raised and we hope that all your concerns will be there.

Mr Speaker, one country benefited from this process, but that African country was not paying civil servants and that appeared in the report, and what other Heads of State said was, ‘Your Excellency, there is no way you can run your country without paying your people.’


Mr Chilembo: That country took the advice and paid its civil servants, and that was something positive coming out of the system. As a country, Zambia, on governance, we have gone further in undertaking a national governance survey. The survey has been commissioned by this Government through the Governance Secretariat and is aimed at collecting evidence based on contending information or governance issues in order to guide the policy-making process. The survey will lead to the production of the state of governance report for Zambia to be produced in 2009. This report is expected to provide benchmark information for the subsequent annual assessment on the state of governance in Zambia. Even ourselves, as a country, are doing a self assessment.

This is why I have told politicians that we have enough institutions through which our concerns can be made known to the Government. It is not always useful to stand on an ant hill and say all sorts of things when we have institutions through which we can have effective dialogue and find answers for the good of all us. Let us reduce on campaigning because you cannot be campaigning for five years. Instead, you must have time to deal with matters that can add value to this country.

Hon. Government Member: Hammer.

Mr Chilembo: I also wish to commend His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, for coming out very clearly on the question of the freedom of our media. He said that the media is free to regulate itself despite some people claiming that the Government wants to regulate it. He made it very clear that they must regulate themselves.

Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that most professionals have associations to curb the conduct of their members. We have, for instance, the Law Association of Zambia for lawyers. You cannot say you want to be a lawyer and at the same time refusing to be part of their association. In fact, you also have journalists who are at the same time lawyers…

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Chilembo: … and who have registered with the Law Association of Zambia. The only thing we are asking for is journalists to be regulated by their association, but they are not willing to go that path.

Hon. Government Member: Mwila, you are not ticketing anything.

Mr Chilembo: Why that double standard?

Mr Speaker, Hon. Kapeya during his contribution talked about the issues affecting the media. He referred to Article 21 of the Zambian Constitution which says that there is freedom of association, but I must say his reference only ended at Article 21(1). He did not go further to read Article 21(2) which actually gives exceptions in this provision. Article 21(2) says and, I quote:

“Nothing contained in or done under the authority of any law shall be held to be inconsistent with or in contravention of this Article to extent that it is shown that the law in question makes provision

(a) that is reasonably required in the interests of defence, public safety, public order, public morality or public health;
(b) that is reasonably required for the purpose of protecting the rights or freedoms of other persons;…”

When we leave the media to do whatever, they are likely to injure other people and so the rights of other citizens need to be protected. We cannot have a media which can write on whatever it feels like or choosing one topic to deal with all the time or choosing always one person. We must ask ourselves. What is this? We need to have some kind of regulation in the way the media carries out its work. We cannot just have a blanket right of the freedom to associate and then use that to run away from rules. In every game, there are rules and what we are saying is that our media is not an exception. I am very glad that His Excellency the President came out very clearly on this. I appeal to the media through you, Mr Speaker, that they should quickly start working out mechanisms on how they can regulate themselves. We have made it clear that they have that freedom to regulate themselves.

Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to the hon. Members who wish to debate to fully support His Excellency the President’s Address and create good grounds for us to interact because sometimes you say things that make it difficult for us to get along and then later on you start questioning why we cannot come together. You must be consistent. Let us work together for the good of mother, Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this chance to discuss only two issues. The first issue is hunger and relief food. The second one is the Public Private Partnership and Infrastructure (PPPI).

On hunger and relief food, I am thankful to Hon. Mwiimbu who has already adequately covered this issue. I think his words on the Vice-President are my words too.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya:  Similarly, the words on the Deputy are mine too. However, having said that, let me make one correction regarding the roots that I showed on television. Those roots cannot be sold along the road. The hon. Deputy Minister said he went along the road and talked to some women selling these roots and concluded that they were not poisonous. The roots that I had cannot be sold. They are found deep inside the rural area. If the hon. Deputy Minister wants to prove this, I……..

Hon. UPND Member: And eat them.

Mr Mooya: … will direct him to where I found them and he can possibly taste them.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes.

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, you cannot sell them on the road because are poisonous and so the explanation that he gave was totally wrong. Let me point out that I will not stop showing the world those fruits as long as the Government does not come to the rescue of the people in my constituency in terms of irrigation and eradication of animal diseases. The hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Agriculture pointed out that there is a plan to this effect but until it is implemented, I have a duty to bring the problems faced by my people to the attention of Government by all means possible.

Now, let me come to the second issue which is the Public Private Partnership and Infrastructure. I think nobody is against this PPPI, especially that the Government has more money to finance all its projects. This PPPI can be compared to a double edged sword. It can be a tool for development and at the same time for exploitation. However, in Zambia, I think it is a tool for development, though we need to improve it by finding ways of protecting Zambians. How can the Zambians be protected? It is by the provision of a legal and regulatory framework around which the PPPI should be implemented. I read the policy on the PPPI from Pages 1 to 10 but to my surprise, I never found a component discussing the protection of the ordinary Zambian during the implementation of the PPPI.
Mr Speaker, let me discuss my past experience with the PPP and apply it to the Kamwala Market. That was put up around 2000 and 2001 at a cost of K8.9 billion. I remember around July or August of 2004, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata raised the issue regarding the rentals which the developer was collecting. The then, Deputy Minister, Norman Chibamba, gave a break down of the rentals. He said that there were 466 stores going at K120, 000 per month. That sums up to about K50 million. He also said that there were 107 shops being rented out at between K3.5 to K9.5 million. Taking the lowest amount of the two which is K3.5 million, it gives a sum of K374 million per month. Adding the two figures, you get something like K420 million per month. In a year, it sums up to K5 billion. In two years, if my arithmetic is correct, it comes to about K10 billion against K8.9 billion that was pumped into this project.

Mr Speaker, the moral question that I would like to ask is, how many years should Zambia allow the developer to recoup his investment costs plus profit? Should we allow ten years or between twenty to thirty years as is given in the policy document? Should we give him sixty-five years? I think that all those three scenarios are applicable, but one is more suitable to Zambia. I know the one. The most suitable to Zambia is the one that protects Zambians against exploitation.

Similarly, I can discuss my problem with the PPPI with reference to the Town Centre Market. The lease period is sixty years. However, on this one, I was very interested when I read the Sunday Times for 14 December, 2008, where the Government is defending the sixty years lease period.

 I remember around November of 2004, the then hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing gave instructions on this Floor to the Lusaka City Council to go and renegotiate because he felt that the lease period was too long. However, I have seen that  there has been a u-turn on the part of the Government. The Government is contending that there is nothing wrong with sixty years as long as the hon. Minister approved that.

I can also discuss the PPP with the case of Chirundu Border Support Facilities in mind. One hon. Minister came on the Floor, when there was only a balance of K25 billion required to complete the facilities. The initial cost was K60 billion. He tried to argue that the facilities should be placed under Build Operate and Transfer (BOT). However, the revenue collected there was at least K3 billion per day. This would have meant that if we had used the money collected there, we should have cleared bill in eight days. The question was whether to lease the border for 15 years when revenue collected at Chirundu Border Post was enough to pay the K25 billion balance in eight days. I am happy that the Government gave in and the idea to lease the border was dropped.

Hon. Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that we welcome the PPP, let’s just make sure there is a mechanism to protect Zambians. Let us come up with the necessary legal and regulatory framework. The policy document is silent about regulatory issues such as single sourcing and unsolicited bids. 
In short, I am saying that we welcome this policy, but please let us put some regulatory measures so that Zambia is developed and not exploited.

Mr Speaker, finally, let me talk about the institutional framework regarding the PPP. I remember when we were being introduced to the PPP policy, the people on the left argued that they wanted the PPP Unit in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to be run by people from the private sector.

After a long discussion we agreed that it should be manned by civil servants. I was surprised after reading in one of the newspapers government is trying to bring in somebody from the private sector. He is a friend of mine and I have no problem with that because I have known him for thirty years. He is the right person. However, I think we should go by what was agreed upon earlier that this unit should be run by civil servants. Probably, as a compromise, I suggest that we can have people that were not involved in the formulation of this policy document to run this unit. Otherwise, I can see that some people may have personal interests at the expense of national interests. As I have already pointed out, this private-public-partnership (PPP) can be a double edged sword. It either develop Zambia or exploit Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): May I take this opportunity to thank you for affording me this chance to join my colleagues who have contributed on this Motion.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament must learn to be assertive in approach, in speech and in whatever they do within and outside Parliament. We are referred to as hon. Members which is a honourable title. It does not matter which side of the House one may be. Therefore, hon. Members must ensure that whatever they say is factual. Let me refer to some very good debates which came from hon. Members who come from Southern Province.

Mr Speaker, I would like to begin with what the hon. Member for Chikankata (Mr Habeenzu) who informed the House on how best the fertilise support programme could be managed. I think that his ideas are reasonable. As Minister for Southern Province, I toured various chiefdoms to ascertain how the fertiliser was getting to the end users. I discovered that there was no linkage between the administrators of this fund and the users. This meant that most of these cooperatives had no relevance to the peasant farmers. That is a fact which cannot be denied.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Sejani also discussed how the cattle industry was developed in the past. The dipping facilities were easily accessible because they were being controlled by Government. That system brought a lot of success to the livestock industry. Again, the Government is willing to listen, research and, if need be, get proposals in writing. In my case, I will transmit that information to the powers that be. I would like to assure you that I will not water-down anything in your proposals.

Sir, I shared the platform with some of the most charismatic debaters in the names of late Munukayumbwa Sipalo and the likes of the flamboyant Authur L. Wina. If you could compete with them, you had to find a way of how to mix flamboyance and charisma.It is possible to fit in such a mix and get some useful information out of it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Therefore, I am impressed with the contributions which were made by UPND Members of Parliament which were very reasonable. In my private contacts with them, they have assisted me to find answers to reducing the poverty levels in Southern Province. The province has since been able to increase its food production. With the help of these MPs, the government would like to see how many people are involved in producing food in the Province? What is the percentage of people who are consumption oriented? How many are they? Whose duty is it to produce the food that we must eat? Is it mandatory for the Government to provide food for those that don not have. Food relief is not a pride to us. It is an embarrassment.

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: From now on, as a Government, I think we should try to find out what is it that we can do and that is where we welcome reasonable debates. What is it that we can do to improve production costs? That is what we want to do. We will not ignore good suggestions from the Opposition. We will not ask them to shut up. We will welcome reasonable and well researched information.

Mr Speaker, although it is Government’s responsibility to provide for its people, however it would be immoral to expect us to ask people to open their mouths and then drop food in them.


Mr Munkombwe: That would be asking far too much from anybody. Let us create facilities which will improve the agriculture sector and reduce the cost of production.

In this regard, I welcome the remarks that were made by Hon. Muntanga. He is an authority in agriculture. If you say anything less than what I have said about his remarks, then you do not understand him.

Hon Hachipuka is a financial researcher. We want your input hon. Member, except, you playing your game outside Government. You are an authority in financial research and economics. The country needs to benefit from your knowledge.
We want this country to benefit from that experience. Hon. Muyanda is an engineer. We, on this side of the House, need his engineering ideas. Therefore, we need their input. If we cannot get it directly, can you make sure that we get it indirectly.

Mr Speaker, in this country, people have a choice and by saying this, I am referring to the speech. You can dip your hands into a cattle kraal, extract cattle dung and throw it at any speech you want.  You are at liberty to do so.


Mr Munkombwe: Dip your hands into any cattle kraal, extract cattle dung and sprinkle it upon any table. You are free to do so under the guise of democracy. You are also free to be as unreasonable as you can by behaving in the way some people outside this place behave. That is not my concern. My concern is whether we can present researched information. It would be sad for us on this side of the House to reject properly researched information.

Mr Speaker, if people want us removed from power, they must have the apparatus to do so.


Mr Munkombwe: It is not easy. If you are marketing a product that is unmarketable, even if you want to have us removed, we will stay until you get a better replacement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, those of us who aspire to positions of leadership must try, as much as possible, to present some quality.

Mr Kambwili: Efyo mwalebepa na ba Kaunda ifyo fine.


Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I was one of the most influential Back Benchers for ten years in this august House. Every time people like Mr Steven Malama, Mr Willa Mung’omba, Mr Authur Wina and Mr Munukayumbwa Sipalo (unfortunately the late) stood up to make their presentations, you could see people pay attention. People do not want to listen to anything useless


Mr Munkombwe: Sir, every time you rise to speak, they close their ears. They feel like leaving because they expect shouting, unreasonableness and senselessness. They do not want to listen to senseless people. Every time you want to speak, people know what you are going to say and do not want to waste their time paying attention. Therefore, despite some people’s extreme hatred for the ruling party, can they also show that they can research.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, people will not lose anything if they go to the various ministries to look for information which is readily available. We can have lapses as a Government and we need you to remind us of them. Of what benefit is it to us if you always say, “We will deal with you. You will see. We will follow you.”?

Mr Munkombwe: What method are you going to use to follow us or stop us from trying to find solutions to the problems in the mines? As a Government, we have a duty to assist the people who are suffering and those who are losing jobs in the mines and elsewhere. That is our duty.
Mr Shakafuswa: Tell them!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if you give yourselves a duty and do not do anything about it, people will suffer. My appeal, therefore, is that we should use our time to build and not destroy.

Hon. Member: Kamwamba badala!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, there is a notion which also makes no sense. Certain people think that since Mr Daniel Munkombwe is a member of the Government, he is automatically a sellout.  That is a senseless attitude. Whatever I am and whatever I will be, I am still myself. I have never had the propensity to be a boot licker.


Mr Munkombwe: Sir, any system will demand loyalty. Any political party will demand loyalty to the leadership. To be a good leader, you must also be a good follower, doer or member of that particular organisation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, when you show signs of …

Hon. Government Member: Immaturity!

Mr Munkombwe: … immaturity, then you will reap the reward and it can be costly. I worked under a system which used to vet people to ensure they towed the line. I was never vetted. There are institutions created for attacking in the national councils and at the provincial conferences. In Parliament, if you say things which are within parliamentary ethics, you cannot be disciplined. In most cases, reference to Mr Speaker’s comments are never made. If, for political expedience, …

Mr Munkombwe: … you say, “I told them,” before you are cleared, you will be disciplined by Parliament.

Do not go to your friends in the newspapers and do not use newspapers as your agents.


Mr Munkombwe:  Newspapers do not write useless things. They write news and news is made by proper people.

Mr Kambwili: Go and farm!

Mr Munkombwe: Somebody is saying that I should go and farm. I have never said that I was a rich man. Apart from being in politics, nobody in this country has ever put me in their employment register.


Mr Munkombwe: I have never been employed in my life.


Mr Munkombwe: I have worked for nobody. I am a farmer and have cultivated 200 hectares of maize this year.  You can go and see it. It is not something to be hidden in the bedroom.


Mr Munkombwe: Those saying that I should go and farm should go to Kabebya Farm and see who I am. By so doing, they will know me and, perhaps, if they respect achievers, they will respect me thereafter.


Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, let us reason. I, therefore, I invite all hon. Members of Parliament from Southern Province to meet me so that we chart a new form of development projects. We must approach development together because you are elected and I cannot exist without you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Whether you belong to another party or not is not my concern.


Mr Munkombwe: My concern is development. I will use you and you will use me effectively. Let us use each other. Those who are quarrelling with their ministers do not know how to develop their areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: You must not debate to kill yourself, but in a manner in which you continue to be loved by the people who have the instrument of power and control the money. We control the money here. If you denounce us, you do it at your own peril.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, I am eternally thankful for the opportunity to debate the Motion of Thanks on the Speech which was presented before this House by His Excellency, President Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

Mr Speaker, let me begin by submitting from the onset that I adopt the following statement by President Michael Sata:

“The Speech which was presented by President Rupiah Bwezani Banda is the worst over the past forty-four years.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, it is the worst speech predominantly because …


Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair wants to listen to the hon. Member for Kasama Central debate.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, it is the worst speech in the sense that it does not, by any standards or in any way, represent …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. Is that point of order procedural?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, it is procedural.

I am Senior Deputy Minister, therefore, I know what I am doing.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to raise this very serious point of order.

Mr Speaker, a number of times in the previous House and, indeed, this House, you have guided us to debate facts on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, in 2005/06, this Government, through the Office of the Vice-President guided by His Honour the Vice-President, released 12,068 metric tonnes of relief food to the districts in Southern Province. In 2006/07, we distributed 1,888.78 metric tonnes and in 2008/09, we have already distributed 4,331 metric tonnes of relief food in Southern Province.

Mr Speaker, following the release of the relief food, the Government prepared two documents, the policy and the operator’s manual, which I will lay on the Table

Mr Speaker, is it order for hon. Members of Parliament, in particular Hon. Mooya and Hon. Mwiimbu, to say on the Floor of this House that this Government is too insensitive and arrogant to attend to the cries of the people? This year we are still releasing relief food in response to the calls of our people

Mr Speaker, according to the chart, Hon. Members of Parliament are part of the disaster management circle of their districts and constituencies. Hon. Members of Parliament are also part of the national chart which includes the media. I need your serious ruling.
Hon. Opposition Members: On what?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, is it in order for the hon. Members of Parliament to come and mislead the nation, and in particular say that we in the Office of the Vice-President are arrogant and insensitive? I have a DVD with an extract of a statement that I issued in relation to the areas we took this food to. In some cases, we have even been to areas where hon. Members have not been. I need you serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!{mospagebreak}

 I have listened very carefully to the point of order that has been raised by the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President. I take note of the fact that the hon. Deputy Minister has already debated matters relating to the policies and activities in the Office of the Vice-President. His predicament is that his debate may have not been complete, hence, his bringing out that information through a point of order. Hon. Deputy Minister, that is the information you should have included in your debate to avoid fireworks from hon. Members who wish to detract your attention from what you are trying to do for the people of Zambia.

In the past, although the Chair no longer does that, I guided the Executive to avoid taking the Floor and debating issues in this House prematurely. This is because if issues are raised by the Back Bench or the groupings on my left, you will have no chance to come back and answer the subsequent vexing points that may have been raised by hon. Members after members of the Government have debated.

The ruling is that you have adequately debated your point of order which is of an informative nature. In future, I would suggest that you wait until you have heard from as many of them as possible so that you can come in and correct any misrepresentations, if any, that may have arisen during the debate of the Back Bench and the groupings on my left. That is the advice I will give.

The hon. Member may continue.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, it is the worst speech predominately because it does not, in any way and by any standards, represent the challenges that we face today.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, what this House saw was a twentieth century mindset attempting to address the challenges of the twenty-first century.


Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, that, in itself, simply confirms authoritatively that this nation has lost direction.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, just before independence, in 1964, the people of Zambia were given a cheque. The idea was that when they went to cash in that cheque, they were going to have access to better housing, quality education, quality health care and better roads.
Mr Speaker, for forty-five years now, the Zambians have been putting in a lot of sacrifices and waiting for a point in time when they can start enjoying their rewards, which never comes. They are often told that their lives can only improve if they change those in leadership. It is unfortunate that the little development we began to happen just after independence has not continued.

Mr Speaker, when I refer to the good times after independence, I am talking about the period, 1964 to 1972, thereafter Zambia lost direction. Zambia was conceived as a nation that believed in democracy and a free people who in pursuit of self determination want to fulfil their full potential. However, because of the pettiness or smallness of our politics, we have continued to see a trend where we, the leaders, who are supposed to be the shepards of the people have turned against the them. Sir, there is punishment that goes with what is happening in this nation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: I have succinctly submitted before that the only permanent kingdom is the Kingdom of God. Any other kingdoms are temporary.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, today, if you want to show that you are a mighty man or woman, a time will come when you will have to account for your deeds. All your activities will come to an end.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: In this era, we need to face the truth in this nation. We have allowed the truth to tumble on the streets while we watch.

Hon. PF Member: Hammer!

Dr Chishimba: And we claim that we are leaders who are committed to improving the living standards of our people and yet, we turn against the same people.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Sir, it is petty ambition to aspire to positions of leadership when you have no plan.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: You cannot attempt to aspire to leadership before you even come up with an action plan.

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Dr Chishimba: You need to know who is going to be in your team even before you declare your intention to contest for any leadership position.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Dr Chishimba: For example, when I attempted to run for presidency in our own party, at that time, I even appointed my cabinet.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Most of the hon. Members, who are here like Hon. Charles Milupi and Hon. Lubinda among others, were supposed to be in my team.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, this simply means that before you are even voted into office, you need to begin to implement your plan of action upon declaring your intentions.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Dr Chishimba: It is dangerous, therefore, Mr Speaker, to aspire to leadership when you have no clear idea of what you want to achieve.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, the speech presented last week in this House, simply confirms authoritatively that His Excellency, President Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has no plan for this nation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: It is clearly stated that where there is no vision, people perish.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Therefore, let us begin to prepare ourselves for a deeper crisis than the one we are currently going through as a nation. Therefore, I believe that this is a time for those of us on the left, to start comparing notes, unite and ensure that come 2011, the MMD Government must go to rest.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: What more time do they need?

The men and women in the Kaunda Government who fought for independence and sacrificed their personal luxury and managed to bring considerable development between 1964 and 1972, less than ten years in power.

Hon. PF Member: Yes!

Dr Chishimba: Today, we are in these Parliament Buildings which were constructed by that Government. The roads that we keep rehabilitating today were constructed by those men and women who were moved by nothing except to deliver to the people of Zambia.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Those men and women who united across regions. Men and women who put self ambition under the carpet and wanted to see results rather than petty rhetoric which is so common in politics today.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, important that today we begin to ask ourselves these very important questions. What is motivating us to aspire to leadership? Is it petty ambition or service? If today, I want to challenge PF ‘s President Sata, and the court rules that I am not in order, I must be ready to offer service to party in any capacity that I am given.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, this goes to prove that democracy is not about how successful I am when I try to destabilise the party by pursuing what I want as an individual. Democracy is about following what the majority of the people want. Sir, in the preamble of our Constitution, the people of Zambia have said, “We the people of Zambia,” meaning that the people of Zambia have not been rendered functus officio. The people of Zambia should be in control in running the affairs of this country. When we are in leadership, whatever we want to do for the people, let us ask them how they want it done for them, instead of us doing it our own way.

Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate when you analyse the current state of affairs in Zambia, you can easily tell that President Banda since taking office over two months, has not been in a hurry to leave a legacy. What legacy? A legacy of taking the whole clan to some place to go and rest when the nation is suffering?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Is that a legacy? What legacy are you talking about? You have seen, Mr Speaker, what America has done. Before President Obama was sworn in, he already had a team in place. From day one, he began to implement the programmes and policies that he set himself to implement in trying to attend to the crises that has rocked America and the whole world. It is unacceptable in this time and era for anybody to even take time off active working hours when the people are suffering.

Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia want answers to their problems and they are not going to accept anything less because they are very clear in terms of what they want. The people of Zambia want clean water and good sanitation. The people of Zambia want adequate health care services provided to them. The people of Zambia want quality education and not just basic education. When you stand in this House and say, 2000 basic schools have been constructed, the question is, what are you producing from those basic schools? Are you producing men and women who are ready to strategically station themselves and take this nation to higher levels?

Mr Speaker, we in the Patriotic Front are very clear, we have said that basic education is not a solution to this country’s problems, hence we need to abolish basic education and construct high schools. For every 15 square kilometres, you need to have a high school and hospital readily available for the people of that particular who are not only voters but also tax payers who expect us to deliver to them what they want.

Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that the legacy which His Excellency the President Mr Banda talked about cannot be seen to be taking shape because there is no development plan that he has that is worth talking about. Let me give you an example of what I would want to see that has happened before.This is my third year in this House and the two times when the late President Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa came in this House whilst I have been here, he provided clear guidelines in the area of taxation directing the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in terms of what he wanted to see done.

For the very first time, I stood on the Floor of this House to commend late President Mwanawasa for a new tax regime in the mines. He said that this money would go into a special account so that the people of Zambia could know exactly how much money would be realised from this exercise. That is the new kind of politics which we need in this country. That is progress. Therefore, I expected President Rupiah Bwezani Banda to come to this House and tell us how his Government will continue with Mwanawasa’s legacy because he is talking about continuity, change and so forth. However, he did not do that.

Mr Speaker, late President Mwanawasa was clear when he opened Parliament last year. He said his Government was committed with construction of houses for the police and that the Government was going to construct 1,500 housing units for the police. So, I expected him to follow on those footsteps to indicate to this House how many of those houses for the police have been constructed. Instead of continuing the policies of his predecessor, President Banda has opted to concentrate on sowing the culture of intimidating people which is against the global principals of civilisation. Under the current Government, whenever you refer to the suffering of the people working in the police service and army, you are said to be committing treason.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, it is utter nonsense to suggest that when we talk about the suffering of army and police officers, we commit treason.


Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, these are institutions whose existence is provided for by the Constitution and this Parliament appropriates resources and funds for their operation. This is a time that we need to live in a realistic kind of world, where we face reality and begin to address the problems that we face as a nation.

Mr Speaker, on the economic front, the President bemoaned the global economic crisis while giving a directive that was meant to intimidate investors. He warned mining companies not to lay off workers under the pretext of the cushioning themselves from the effects of the global economic crisis. Such leadership is a typical example of trying to use uncivilised 20th century politics when attempting to address the challenges of the 21st century.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: In modern economics, it must be understood that every investment is a risk. When those foreign investors came to Zambia, firstly, their main objective is to maximise the profits they make out of their investment. However, when they have no confidence in the Government of the day, it is up to them either to choose to stay or not. That is one thing which we must understand. When you direct them, you have no locus standi in anyway to prosecute them if they decide to abandon these mining ventures. What I expected from President Banda was him announcing a cogent economic recovery plan. A cogent emergency economic recovery plan which puts all the pettiness in our politics aside and focuses on our talents. We have even in this august House, people like hon. Charles Milupi who have experience in the operations of mining companies in this country.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Hon. Charles Milupi, who belongs to 21st century politics, understands that we are living in an era where we need to invest in renewable sources of energy. Why am I talking about this? Under this emergency cogent economic recovery plan, we need to look at modern methods of production that are cost effective. We can only survive the crisis by reducing the average cost of production so that the investors can continue making a profit and maintaining the jobs of the workers while their mines continue to operate at full scale.

Mr Speaker, I must in fact point out that it is not only direct employees of the mines who are affected by the crisis, but also suppliers. There are many companies on the Copperbelt, Lusaka and other parts of Zambia, who supply the mines with various good and services.

PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Born again Chishimba.

Dr Chishimba: So, if these mines collapse, we are talking about people losing jobs beyond the number we are projecting. The people to lose jobs include those working for companies that supply goods and services whose employment statistics we may not accurately have.

Mr Speaker, it is therefore important that we treat our economic crisis as an emergency. It is not enough for the Government to merely make statements when companies like Zambian Airways go under.  Just yesterday, as I was watching television, I saw that Let’s Go Bowling has also been closed. All these are clear indications of a national crisis. It is not enough for hon. Ministers to come here and speak as if they are talking to children that if the Government had US$30 million they would rather invest it in the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). Even if I challenged them to take money to UTH, we will never see a clean UTH that is stocked with drugs.  Due to corruption and governance malfeasance, we will continue seeing a situation where money only ends up in the hands of the same policy makers. Furthermore, only relatives of the same hon. Ministers are awarded Government contracts because of corruption.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: I would like to ask hon. Members on the right if it is worthwhile, as we face this crisis, to invest K50 billion to K100 billion in the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) over sustaining these companies that are facing collapse.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Born again Chishimba!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, when it comes to decision making, we must look at priorities. Even if something is important, it does not mean that it is urgent. That is the principal that we have to look at when addressing national matters. Whilst I appreciate that constitution making is important, it is not an emergency that requires a lot of money because there are certain changes that can easily be made just by bringing amendments to this House. During this economic crisis  the money that we serve from activities like the constitution making process can be used to help out ailing companies financially so that they donnot fire their workers.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: If these workers lose their jobs, the same Government will be affected because these are people who are paying taxes to the Government. Therefore, the source of revenue for the Government is affected.

Mr Speaker, it is also important to recognise that as we face these challenges, we need to rise above petty politics because time for change in this nation has come.

It has been suggested that local authorities or councils that are run by the PF or United Party for National Development (UPND) are failing to operate efficiently because both UPND and PF cannot deliver quality service. This is utter nonsense because it is a well know fact that these councils have no source of revenue. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) has now been in power for 18 years. The MMD Government sold houses which were a major source of revenue for the councils …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, there is also need for us to bring into close alignment what we say and practice in reality. For as long as we continue not acting on that which we say, this nation will not traverse the road to socio-economic prosperity.

Mr Speaker, we need to be action oriented because the people of Zambia have entrusted power in us and what they want is to see results and not just to hear us talk. We need to be realistic in our plans in order for this nation to successfully navigate the road to socio-economic independency and prosperity.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Western Province (Mr Mufalali): Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you …


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mufalali: … for giving me this chance to debate on the wonderful speech delivered by His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, President of the Republic of Zambia on the opening of the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, I also salute you and your team for guiding us all along that fateful year of 2008. Despite having all those difficulties, you were able to lead this House very well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Tribute should also go to all Zambians who stood firm during the death of our beloved President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. May his soul rest in piece.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the Zambian people stood firm and conducted the Presidential by-elections peacefully.


Mr Mufalali: As a Christian nation and through God’s guidance, we surpassed all of the devil’s temptations. My only task right now is to ask God to forgive all the people who are condemning the President’s speech.


Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)


The House adjourned at 1257 hours until1430 hours on Tuesday, 27th January, 2009.