Debates - Friday, 13th February, 2009

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 13th February, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Madam Speaker, let me give some idea of the business the House will consider next week.

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 17th February, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with policy debate on the Motion of Supply.

On Wednesday, 18th February, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Madam Speaker, on this day, the Expanded Committee on Estimates will present its report on this year’s estimates of revenue and expenditure. Thereafter, the House will conclude the general policy debate on the Motion of Supply and the House will then resolve into Committee of Supply to begin consideration of individual heads of expenditure in the Budget.

On Thursday, 19th February, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2009 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following heads will be considered:

Head 01  –  Office of the President – State House;
Head 02  –  Office of the Vice-President;
Head 03  –  National Assembly;
Head 05  –  Electoral Commission of Zambia; and 
Head 06  –  Public Service Commission – Office of the President

On Friday, 20th February, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. Then the House will consider Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2009 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following heads will be considered:

Head 07  –  Office of the Auditor-General; and 
Head 08  –  Cabinet Office – Office of the President.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_____

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

CITIZENS ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT FUND
The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make a ministerial statement on the status of the disbursement of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF) by the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) from December, 2008, to January, 2009.

Madam Speaker, since my last ministerial statement in this august House in December, 2008, I wish to inform the nation about the current disbursement status of the CEEF. I also wish to inform the nation about the number of applications received, appraised and approved for funding by the commission. I also wish to present, through you, Madam Speaker, the number of beneficiaries by category funding levels of each approved project and by sector.

Madam Speaker, the public has expressed concern on a number of issues. The main issues on which the public has expressed concern are as follows:

(a)  the application forms are too complicated to fill in;

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Mutati: (b) the requirements for collateral and security create high barriers to the applicants;

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: It is true.

Mr Mutati: (c) the cost of borrowing from the CEEF is too high;

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: (d) the administrative costs attached to the loans are too high; and

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: (e) the process of accessing the funds is complicated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Muziba kansi.

Hon. Government Members: So you know.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the CEEC has responded to these public concerns and the challenges by using different strategies and approaches.

On the concern that the application form is complicated, the CEEC has conducted continuous reviews of the structure of the application form. This form is structured in five parts:

Part I: Business Details

The applicant is required to provide information on the location, contact address and physical address.

Part II: Nature of Business

 The applicant is required to provide brief information on the product, market, supplier and competitors.

Part III: Management and Employee Information

The applicant is required to provide information on the organisation structure and skills available.

Part IV: Financial Information

Here you provide details of the purpose of the loan, the indicative repayment schedule, the management of books of accounts and financial performance of the project in future.

Hon. Opposition Members: Lunte.

Mr Mutati: Part V: Certification of Confirmation

 The applicant needs to provide, at the station, that the information given by the project sponsor is true and correct.

Madam Speaker, these are the five parts of the form.

Madam Speaker, the commission has undertaken surveys in many parts of the country among applicants who have heard the perception that the application form is difficult to fill in. Out of 100 such applicants, 50 per cent confirmed they had not seen the form, but had heard from others that the form was difficult to fill in.

In order to improve the communication and further refine the application form, we would request the hon. Members of this august Assembly and, indeed, the public in general, to provide the commission with suggestions on specific areas of the application form that seem complicated before the end of March, 2009. In order to facilitate this, a copy of this application form will be provided to each hon. Member of Parliament and a public forum …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: … will be availed to members of the public to interact with the commission on a specific day of the week that will be announced soon.

Madam Speaker, the commission realises that the targeted citizens may have difficulties providing collateral. Collateral for projects up to K50 million is dealt with in various ways such as asset finance, key man reference, community referencing and other Small and Medium Enterprise (SME) friendly permutation.

The commission has noted that despite these measures that are meant to ease the potential barriers created by the requirement for collateral, the commission has learnt that the current culture of dependency created by previous empowerment programmes still persists amongst targeted citizens who view these loan facilities as grants or social investments that do not require repayment.

Madam Speaker, it is, therefore, imperative to change this poor credit culture among our people in order to secure these investments. As a nation, we need to encourage people to develop a repayment culture if we are to develop and sustain future investments.

Madam Speaker, with respect to concerns that the cost of borrowing from the CEEF is too high, the CEEC currently lends its funds at a simple interest rate of 12 per cent. This needs to be contrasted with an average leading rate of 25 per cent in the commercial banking sector. In addition, the commission supports long-term productive investment options compared to the commercial banks short-term lending options. Comparing the commercial rate of interest with the rate charged by CEEC shows that the beneficiaries of the CEEF are truly empowered.

Madam Speaker, the concern that the administrative costs attached to the loan form are too high needs to be weighed in the light of the situation obtaining on the ground. The administrative costs take the following fee structure:
(a) for loans up to K50 million for start-up business, the administrative fee has been abolished to facilitate easy access;

(b) for loans up to K50 million for existing businesses, applicants pay K20,000 for the application form;

(c) for loans between K50 million and K250 million, applicants pay K50,000 for the application form;

(d) for loans above K250 million, the applicants pay K100,000 for the application form; and

(e) the citizens are then required to attach all the necessary documents such as copies of their national registration card (NRC), certificate of registration of the business with the Patents and Companies Registration Office (PACRO) and certificate of registration with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA).

Madam Speaker, you will note that the CEEC has stopped charging for start-up applications up to K50 million. This is in order to ensure that the forms are easily accessible for that segment of applicants in line with the strategy of empowering the lower segment of our society. The commission realises that the financing requirement of up to K50 million is the largest and is the segment that has mainly the youth, women in business, disadvantaged and disabled.

As a Government, we concur with the CEEC that this threshold of application forms should be given free of charge. The commission has increased the number of collection points for application forms through partnering with commercial banks and also through the commission headquarters as well as through nineteen local authorities where there are no banking facilities.

Madam Speaker, the CEEC has taken steps to address the concern that the process for accessing funds is complicated. The CEEC currently receives and processes applications at three levels; district, province and national. At each level, there are empowerment committees comprising seven competent areas, namely, the youth, women, the disabled, people living positively, district business associations or chambers of commerce, the Government and financial institutions.

Madam Speaker, these carefully designed structures are meant to address the concerns of transparency, accountability, good governance, non-partisanship and ownership in the identification, appraisal and approval process. To further protect the process from excessive sectional influence, the CEEC deliberately designated district secretaries or town clerks at district, city or municipal council level and chief planning officers at provincial level as secretaries while the chairpersons of the empowerment committees at the district and provincial levels are district commissioners and permanent secretaries.

Madam Speaker, a concern has been continually expressed that the access and coverage of the fund is not broad-based. During December, 2008, the commission approved a total of thirty-six projects valued at K6.6 billion. From January, 2009, to-date, the commission has appraised another seventy-three projects valued at K8.6 billion, achieving a progression increment of above 51 per cent. The cumulative figure of approved and funded projects for December, 2008, and January, 2009, is 109 valued at K15.2 billion. I shall lay on the Table the break down of the approved and funded projects by sector, province and category of beneficiaries.

Madam Speaker, the break down of the approved and funded projects in January is as follows:

(a) sixty-eight proposals valued at K6.2 billion project finance; and

(b) five proposals valued at K2.3 billion trade finance.

The targeted beneficiaries that received funding in each of the categories are as follows:

(a) under project finance, nineteen projects from the youths;

(b) twenty-one projects submitted by women;

(c) one project submitted by a disabled person; and

(d) twenty-seven projects submitted by male entrepreneurs.

The commission also funded trade finance projects that benefited the following targeted citizens:

(a) one youth applicant; and

(b) four projects submitted by male entrepreneurs.

These funded projects have the potential of generating 861 direct jobs.

Madam Speaker, the geographical distribution of beneficiaries by province is as follows:

(a) Lusaka Province had twenty projects valued at K2.7 billion and five trade finance projects valued at K2.3 billion;

(b) Southern Province had twenty-three projects valued at K1.6 billion

(c) Copperbelt Province had two projects valued at K74 million

(d) Eastern Province had seventeen projects valued at K1.3 billion

(e) North-Western Province had five projects valued at K800 million;

(f) Western Province had five projects valued at K345 million; and

(g) Central Province had two projects valued at K88 million.

Madam Speaker, allow me to provide specific examples that indicate an all inclusive character of the fund. In North-Western Province, the CEEC has supported a female promoted investment in the tourism sector a lodge called Mutanda Pleasure Resort with K250 million.

Luwaka Investment Company in North-Western Province provided another example of an all inclusive funded investment. It involves the provision of support to members of a co-operative society spanning four villages in three chiefdoms to grow vegetables and other agricultural produce in partnership with Luwaka Investment Company and Lumwana Mine.

In Lusaka Province, the CEEC has funded Mopao Company dealing in cement. On the Copperbelt, a youth group investing in the energy industry has been funded. A bakery project in Kazungula, Southern Province, and two projects in Mongu, Western Province, in clothes manufacturing by Shebolisa Company and Transwest Poultry have been funded. There are many examples.

Madam Speaker, allow me to take this opportunity to explain the status of CEEF activities in two provinces, namely Luapula and Northern provinces. The two provinces have experienced a very low rate of quality investment proposals resulting in their applications being referred back to the promoters. The CEEC has since instituted appropriate measures to redress this situation. A team of senior officers from the CEEC headquarters has travelled to the two provinces to provide intensive community sensitisation …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Mutati: … and technical support in business development. I am convinced that this move will redress the current situation in the two provinces.

Madam Speaker, in order to improve accessibility of the CEEF, the commission has undertaken continuous nationwide sensitisation campaigns with key stakeholders, including the chambers of commerce, district business associations, the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU), the Peasant Farmers Union(PFU), co-operatives, marketers and women’s associations.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the commission, as a development and implementing organisation, faces a number of challenges, including that of meeting the high national expectations, addressing the current dependency culture precipitated by the need for grants and investing in social projects. Lessons from past practices of past empowerment schemes have provided enough wisdom to the Government on what works and what does not.

Madam Speaker, I would like to appeal to the Zambians that we should focus on the objectives of the fund which will allow citizens to participate in wealth creation. When a citizen borrows from the fund, there is need to meet the minimum information requirements in order to give confidence that the borrowed funds will be repaid. The fund is not for patronage or created to respond to sectoral interests. However, the Government remains open to suggestions on how improvements in the operations of the fund can be made.

Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who, despite the limited resource envelope brought about largely by the global financial crisis, managed to allocate K40 billion to the CEEF in this year’s Budget. I appeal to the citizens to ensure sustainability of the fund by developing a culture of repayment so that as many citizens as possible can benefit from its resources.

Madam Speaker, I would like to reiterate that the fund does not give grants, but is a revolving fund. The Government remains alive to the need to consider awarding grants to needy areas and concerns, but not through this fund. This is because the purpose for which it was created is different from that which grants or social investments are made. With the contributions that the CEEF will receive from both the hon. Members of Parliament and the public in general over the coming month, I am confident that the fund will perform even better.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement made by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

Let me remind hon. Members to wait until the Speaker finishes speaking before they rise.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, there is a clear disconnect between the parliamentary offices established in many constituencies and this programme. I would suggest that those offices are included in your planning. Why have you not, in your wisdom, involved the parliamentary offices in the management of this fund?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, that is a useful suggestion. In facilitating coverage and access for the targeted groups, the CEEC will consider the integration of constituency offices, particularly in the appraisal process and referencing, to make access to the fund easier.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that as far as Bangweulu Constituency is concerned, the project proposals were made with the help of the professional assistant in the constituency office, but they were disqualified. Is that not an insult to the people of Luapula Province?
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the appraisal of a proposal is done with reference to the sections on the application form. When that appraisal is conducted, where there are information gaps or inaccuracies in terms of cash flows and descriptions, the promoter is assisted to fill in the form correctly. We have sent officers to Luapula and Northern provinces to resolve this matter on the ground to facilitate an increased access to the fund.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, regarding the statement by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry pertaining to the consultative process between members of the public and the CEEC, does he not consider it prudent that the hon. Members of Parliament, who are the representatives of the people, should have a liaison meeting with the CEEC so that these teething problems are resolved?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, in my statement, I made it quite clear that we shall give each hon. Member of Parliament a copy of the application form so that the Government, the CEEC and hon. Members of Parliament can meet to analyse the form and other processes in order to refine them and increase access to the fund. Hon. Members, we shall have that forum before we adjourn.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, it has been reported that Luapula and Northern provinces had a shortage of forms. Could the hon. Minister confirm that the non-approval of projects in Luapula and Northern provinces was as a result of this factor and not because the projects were of inferior quality?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the correct position is that adequate forms were distributed to all the provinces, including Northern and Luapula. I do know, for example, that over 500 application forms were available to Northern Province.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Madam Speaker, according to the reports we are receiving these days from Western Province, the CEEF forms are not available at the points where they should be. Could the hon. Minister clarify that point?

Mr Kambwili: Balishipula. Bonse bafeluka?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, to simplify the process, particularly with regard to making the forms available, as a commission, instead of having a typed and printed form such as this one, we are now making photocopies so that we can increase the availability of the forms. We are also asking the provincial administration to assist us photocopy the forms.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, would it not make economic sense for this fund to go directly to the constituencies so that it becomes Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Part II rather than going through the bureaucracy of the district and province?

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the distinguishing feature between the two funds is that CDF is for social investment and the empowerment fund is for wealth creation for citizens.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, out of the approved and disbursed applications, has the greater percentage of disbursements been for rural applicants?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the largest percentage, in terms of applicants, is from rural areas, but, in terms of value, it is from along the line of rail.

Thank you, Madam.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said in his statement that there were a few applications from Northern and Luapula provinces. Can he confirm that this was as a result of non-popularisation of this programme amongst the rural population?

Mr Kambwili: Bushe even ku Lunte, takwali ungalemba isuma?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I am being asked whether there was no credible…

Laughter

Mr Mutati: …. application even from Lunte. We carried out a first round of sensitisation that resulted in applications being submitted. In some cases, as was the case even in my constituency, Lunte, instead of filling in the form as required, an applicant submitted a letter asking for funding for a project. In that letter, they stated that any reference required could be obtained from the hon. Member of Parliament.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, is there a gender perspective to the allocation of these resources?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the answer is obviously yes. We have seen, for example, that the lodge that is being constructed in Mutanda is sponsored by a lady. The bakery in Siavonga is also being sponsored by a lady. The quality of proposals from the female gender has been quite high.

Thank you, Madam.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, how many application forms from Northern and Luapula provinces were rejected?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I do not have the number, but I could provide that information later.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, why are district commissioners (DCs) incorporated in the approval process of the CEEF? Is this not encouraging partisanship considering that DCs are appointed by the ruling party?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I indicated, in my statement, that we have a cross-section of members at district level that are part of the approval committee. The district secretary of a council provides the secretariat while the DC’s role is merely to chair the meeting.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, now that we are going into the process of refining the forms so that they can be friendly to the disadvantaged, is the fund going to be suspended? This is so that the advantaged do not finish the money before we complete refining the forms?

Mr Mutati: Madam, one of the features of the fund is that each province has been allocated K10 billion. This means that you cannot encroach on the funds for another province. Therefore, as we refine the process, money will still be available to each province to access.

I thank you, Madam.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam, when this money arrived at a bank in Namwala, the DC made sure that the first recipients were MMD cadres.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: This is documented in the minutes of the council meetings. Is it not prudent that since this is an affirmative action empowerment fund, we take the forms away from the bank and give them to the councillors, especially for values of up to K50 million which, it has been reported, have the largest number of applicants?

Mr Mutati: Madam, there will be complaints in any process and the role of the fund and Government is to address them. When they do arise, it would be helpful for hon. Members to bring them to our attention so that they can be dealt with promptly.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam, in Eastern Province, the rich accessed these funds more than the poor. What have you done to make sure that the gap between the rich and the poor is narrowed?

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The House shall listen to what is going on.

Mr Mutati: Madam, I think one of the critical elements that we must not forget is that empowerment is not singularly the provision of resources. Empowerment can take the form of employment provision. The nineteen projects that benefitted from the CEEF in Eastern Province created at least 200 jobs, therefore, narrowing the gap between the haves and have nots.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, I see a high degree of contradiction regarding the process of acquiring the form in question. I say so because when we were in Kasama on 23rd December, 2008, we were told that in districts where there are no banking institutions, the forms could be obtained from post offices. However, the hon. Minister has just indicated that the forms can be acquired through the local authorities. Could the hon. Minister make the point clear?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the forms will be made available at the local authorities. In addition, we shall give hon. Members of Parliament a bundle each to take to their constituencies.

 I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why they are not taking reasonable time to do their homework in order to do the right thing. Have you not learnt from the failure of the Tourism Fund?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, life is dynamic. Whatever is designed cannot remain in one permanent state. Therefore, as you face challenges, you need to modify. That is why, having listened to the concerns expressed by hon. Members of Parliament and the public, we are considering refining the forms so that we can make it easier for people to access the funds. Even when we have a new form, there will still be challenges that we will need to attend to.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, during the 2006 and 2008 elections, there were very few spoiled ballot papers in Luapula and Northern provinces. The reason that was given for this, at that time, was that the people of these provinces belonged to the elite and knew how to read and write.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: However, when they applied for the CEEF, all their applications were rejected because their forms had been poorly filled in. Is the hon. Minister not questioning the intellect of the people of the Luapula and Northern provinces?

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is from the Luapula Province and, in my assessment, is quite an intelligent person. Indeed, there are many that are intelligent in that province. Intelligence is not assigned to a particular region or province. It cuts across provinces and regions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, to fill in a ballot paper, you need to mark an ‘X’ against the candidate of your choice whereas there are five parts to fill in when filling in the CEEF application form.
 
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, there is information on the ground that those who fail to repay the loans will be sent to jail. Is this one of the reasons people are not coming forward to access the funds?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, to try and improve the culture of repayment, there have been some people that have been very enthusiastic. However, we shall deal with the collateral that is provided as security for the loan. Therefore, a jail term is not one of the sanctions for failure to repay the loan.

I thank you, Madam.
Laughter

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that most beneficiaries of this fund are along the line of rail, what is the hon. Minister doing to make sure that the people in the rural areas, such as the people of Sichifulo, access this fund?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, one of the mechanisms that we are exploring, at the moment, is engaging the Small Peasant Farmers Association as a conduit for reaching out, particularly to rural Zambia. We are also engaging the market associations as a mechanism to reach out to the rural Zambian. We only started disbursing this fund in December, 2008. Therefore, effectively, we have been in operation for two months. There will be improvements as we go along.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE ENGAGEMENT OF RP CAPITAL GROUP TO EVALUATE ZAMTEL ASSETS

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing my ministry to respond to the point of order raised by Hon. Mukanga Yamfwa, Member of Parliament for Kantanshi Constituency, on the engagement of RP Capital Group of the United Kingdom (UK) to evaluate the Zambia Telecommunications Limited (ZAMTEL) assets and how they were engaged, and also to inform the public about the status and the actions my ministry has undertaken to date to avert the total collapse of ZAMTEL.

I appreciate the anxiety by the hon. Members of the House and the general public on this matter considering the perpetrated effort by some media houses to paint a picture that taxpayer’s money has been unduly committed, misused or even stolen. I also wish to wholeheartedly apologise for the lack of a prompt response as I was away on national duties.

I wish to categorically state that at no time has the Ministry of Communications and Transport paid US$2 million to RP Capital Group or their associates. As such, it does not even appear in the Yellow Book.

It is my wish that hon. Members of this House will give me their total attention so that any misunderstanding on this matter can be clearly explained.

Madam Speaker, allow me to provide some background on the matter. The House may wish to know that the Report of the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply, appointed on 17th January, 2008, recommended to this House as follows:

“The Government urgently needs to restructure, recapitalise and reposition ZAMTEL to compete with other stakeholders in the provision of telecommunication services.”

The Committee also observed that ZAMTEL, in its current form, was insolvent. The Government expects ZAMTEL to be self-sustaining and pay dividends for other social programmes. However, over the years, the ZAMTEL Board has consistently requested for additional funds from the Government to meet their operational and expansion costs.

According to the same report, ZAMTEL is considered a strategic asset to the country, hence, the Committee’s recommendations to the ministry to find a lasting solution.

Madam Speaker, it is against this background that the Government decided to pay serious attention to addressing the problems faced by ZAMTEL. By January, 2008, the ZAMTEL debt stood just under K600 billion.

After consultations with various Government officials, including the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry between February and May, 2008, the Government decided, after all considerations, that recapitalisation, through the change of management and the search for an equity partner, was the only solution.

In this regard, a technical committee was constituted on 1st August, 2008, comprising officials from the ministries of Commerce, Trade and Industry, Communications and Transport, Finance and National Planning and Justice, ZAMTEL, the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) and the Management Division at Cabinet Office.

Madam Speaker, you will recall that in September, 2008, Zambia experienced problems on the French and South African international switches causing massive disruptions of both voice and non-voice services. You will also recall that in my ministerial statement in September, 2008, in response to Hon. Elizabeth Chitika, Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Constituency over the switch problems, I explained that ZAMTEL was in dire straits and needed urgent attention.

In October, 2008, at the height of the Presidential bye-election campaign, the ZAMTEL workers went on strike causing tension and putting the country at a security risk. As at December, 2008, ZAMTEL liabilities had accumulated to K749 billion. Currently, ZAMTEL has a workforce of 2,623. Out of the total annual revenue of K293 billion earned by ZAMTEL in 2008, 70 per cent comprised costs for the staff wage bill. In fact, over K100 billion was recorded as a shortfall to meet operational and staff costs and had to be sourced elsewhere.

It is in view of the foregoing that a number of options were considered by the ministry to ensure that ZAMTEL remained in business. Therefore, short-term measures, including cost reductions, enhanced debt collection as well as limiting debt contraction through loans and other instruments, were implemented by ZAMTEL management.

However, these measures are by far below the optimum levels of operating in a competitive environment. The Ministry of Communications and Transport also had consultations with key stakeholders, including the ZAMTEL board, management, staff and union leadership and the ZDA. In the medium to long-term, it was clear that the current business model, including the financing options, were not sustainable.

The House will recall that my ministerial statement in September, 2008, over ZAMTEL indicated that the way forward would be found before the end of 2008. Many companies approached us with an interest to purchase a majority shareholding in ZAMTEL. Others applied for a whole new mobile licence. After various consultations, it was clear that the immediate task for the ministry was to undertake valuation of the assets of ZAMTEL to ascertain the true value of the company on the open market.

Madam Speaker, I wish to repeat that, in this process, time is of the greatest essence so that we do not continue to subsidise ZAMTEL at the expense of the citizens. We are all aware that mobile costs in Zambia are some of the highest in the region due to ZAMTEL’s monopoly of the international gateway and its inefficiencies. This has a direct bearing on the cost of doing business in general and the cost of communications in Zambia in particular.

Madam, it must be noted that the Government could not enter into any commercial agreements with the companies that were expressing interest because of inadequate information on the correct value of ZAMTEL; information which I needed, as the hon. Minister responsible, to take to Cabinet to seek formal approval to partially privatise ZAMTEL

According to the Zambia Development Agency Act No. 11 of 2006, ZDA would oversee all the aspects of the implementation of the privatisation programme, hence, the reason they are party to the technical committee and the memorandum of understanding (MoU). This being the case, the primary focus for the ministry became to ensure that the valuation study was undertaken immediately.

Madam Speaker, on 19 September, 2008, a company called RP Capital Group of the UK met with the ministry officials, members of the ZAMTEL Board and management and ZDA. RP Capital Group presented a proposal that was different from the ones we had received before. At this meeting, RP Capital Group introduced itself as an entity that could assist the Government of the Republic of Zambia address the issues regarding the asset-evaluation of ZAMTEL and possible sale of the Government’s stake in ZAMTEL and provide transaction advisory services at own cost subject to administrative costs and/or professional fees being paid once the transaction had taken place. It was agreed that the administrative costs would not be more than US$50,000 an equivalent of K250 million. The ministry requested RP Capital Group to submit a formal expression of interest which was received by the ministry on 29th September, 2008.

The House and the general public may wish to know that none of the companies alluded to earlier expressed interest to undertake the valuation exercise except RP Capital Group. As provided for in the Public Procurement Act, No. 12 of 2008, RP Capital Group was selected on the basis of limited selection tender process. Pursuant to Circular No. 1 of 2009, effective 12th December, 2008, the ministerial threshold for consultancy services is K7 billion. Hon. Members may wish to note that the MoU was signed on 22nd December, 2008, after the new procurement Act came into effect.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the process of privatisation of ZAMTEL is in two phases. The first phase relates to services to value ZAMTEL through an MoU. I am advised that an MoU is not a legally biding document, but only expresses the intention of the parties. The second phase involves the actual sale which will only take place upon Cabinet approval. It is after this that a legally binding instrument will be entered.

 I wish to inform this House that it was after the advice of the Solicitor-General, who dealt with the issues pertaining to the MoU, that we went ahead, as a ministry, to sign the MoU on 22nd December, 2008, taking into account all the concerns raised. This MoU included an addendum on the terms of reference on the role of the ZDA as provided for in the Zambia Development Agency Act. I wish to emphasise that ZDA is party to this MoU. The House may wish to note that it is a practice within the Government to enter into MoUs and this one is certainly not the first one in the Ministry of Communications and Transport.

The Attorney-General, thereafter, provided guidance on the agreement that would be signed in the event that Cabinet approved the partial sale of ZAMTEL. Madam Speaker, this advice has not been ignored and will be taken in to account at the appropriate time.

Madam, I now wish to turn to the impression that has been created in the media over this matter that the Government has been irresponsible enough to commit taxpayers’ funds without due consideration.

The Government is a true believer in press freedom, but we also believe that the media must be responsible and practise self-regulation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: This self-regulation must take into account our peculiar culture and norms as Zambians and our social and economic development needs. In this regard, a responsible media can play an important role in uplifting the well being of our people and reducing poverty.

This Government also believes in the fight against corruption and we are ready and committed to interact with all individuals and institutions, including the media, to rid our society of this scourge. Therefore, media stories that rely on leaked unauthenticated documents and half truths are a danger to the stability and security of this nation.

Madam Speaker, I wish to repeat that, media stories that rely on leaked unauthenticated documents and half truths are a danger to the stability and security of this nation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Siliya: I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear, yapwa!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on …

Hon. Opposition Members stood up.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Can hon. Members, please, wait. The Chair will not speak above everybody. Let us give each other a chance.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement made by the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out how many Zambian companies expressed interest in evaluating ZAMTEL and what their offers were. If they declined, we would like to know them.

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, a number of individuals representing both local and foreign companies expressed interest to buy a stake in ZAMTEL. In fact, some insisted that they did not even want a stake in ZAMTEL, but wanted a whole new licence. This, actually, includes Mr Fred M’membe of The Post newspaper who …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Ms Siliya: … preferred to have a whole new licence.

Interruptions

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, all of them were only expressing interest to buy into ZAMTEL or have a whole new licence. The RP Capital Group’s proposal was favoured through a limited selected tender process because it met our need to evaluate the company before we sold it.

 Madam Speaker, we experienced demonstrations in this country during the sale of Zambia National Commercial Bank Plc (ZANACO) because people felt that an evaluation process had not taken place. We decided, in the ministry and as a Government, that we cannot even begin the process of selling Government assets before we know their true value. I think we should all appreciate that the telecoms sector is dynamic and we required expertise both local, through the ZDA, and international. Therefore, we engaged RP Capital Group so that an evaluation of ZAMTEL’s assets could be done before we even began to consider selling it.

Madam Speaker, I wish to repeat that a number of local and foreign companies did approach us, but the majority were asking to out rightly buy a majority stake in ZAMTEL. Others, I repeat, like Mr M’membe of The Post newspaper, wanted a whole new mobile licence.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Speaker, Zhong Xing Telecommunications Equipment Company Limited (ZTE) is a Chinese company. Why does ZAMTEL keep buying equipment from this company and are there any debts owed to this company? I would also like to know what prompted you to dissolve the ZAMTEL Board.

Interruptions
Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, ZTE is a Chinese company in the telecommunications business that has for a number of years been providing telecommunications equipment to ZAMTEL. Currently, ZAMTEL owes ZTE US$46 million. I do not know how many times ZTE has visited my office in the last year to request the Government to settle the debt so that ZAMTEL can begin the cycle of buying equipment from ZTE once more.

Madam Speaker, let me reveal that, in some instances, certain individuals in this country have approached me and offered me money to ensure that ZAMTEL’s sale to ZTE proceeds. Therefore, if I stand here accused of making …

Interruptions

Ms Siliya: If the Government stands here accused of committing Government money unduly, I think that we should look at those people that want to continue to strangle ZAMTEL and put it in debt.

Interruptions

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I am being asked why I dissolved the board. As soon as I became the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport in February, 2008, my discussions with the then President, the late Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, were that we should have a whole change of management at ZAMTEL. You will recall that in April, 2008, the then Managing Director, Mr Simon Tembo, was removed by the board after instructions from the President. In fact, he threatened to fire the board for not performing. Therefore, this decision was long overdue.

Madam, the board did not share my vision that we could not abandon ZAMTEL, sell off Cell Z and leave the rest of the company as a shell before an asset evaluation was done. It was on that basis that I felt that it was important for us to pull in one direction as far as ZAMTEL is concerned. The debts of ZAMTEL will not be paid by its 3,000 workers. They will be paid by yourselves, hon. Members of Parliament in this House, your families and the rest of the citizens of this country. If we do not do anything, we will end up giving this company to ZTE because ZAMTEL is highly indebted to it. In fact, there will be no tender process because ZAMTEL will just be liquidated and the Chinese will take over. To avoid this, I felt that we needed to do an evaluation as quickly as possible to find out the value of ZAMTEL on the international market so that we can try and save the situation and get some value out of it as a Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has disclosed to this House that she was offered an undisclosed amount of money by someone who wanted to corrupt her. Why did she not disclose the amount and the person who wanted to corrupt her and report him/her to the police so that a docket could have been opened instantly? That is how a credible hon. Minister operates. Why did she not do that?

Secondly, on a very significant point, hon. Minister, Mr M’membe has proved to this nation that he is a highly dangerous criminal…

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 The House must tread very carefully. It is understood, in this House, that we have to be careful about how we talk about people that are not here to defend themselves. When there are issues for the courts to tackle, they should go to the police and the courts. Therefore, let me appeal to both sides of the House. We have to be very careful how we bring people from outside, who are not here to defend themselves, into our debates. Can you, therefore, ask your question within this guidance.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, I am highly delighted with your guidance. May I, therefore, know why Mr M’membe, in his intention to defraud, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, the Government, as an entity, carries out internal consultations. Once the attempt to change my decision on certain matters, through inducement, was brought to my attention, the necessary consultations within Government took place.

Madam Speaker, it is very dangerous for the agenda of this Parliament to be provided by people who are not in this House; that is the media.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

You must respond to the question. You will not set the rules for the House.

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Member of Parliament was asking a question in relation to the fourth mobile service licence. That is why he named a certain individual. I wish to categorically state that my conscience and that of my colleagues in the Ministry of Communications and Transport is very clear. We cannot issue another mobile service licence in the market because it will totally destroy ZAMTEL which is a Government asset. It was also of essence that we deal with ZAMTEL’s problems quickly so that the company can compete favourably in this very competitive environment.

Madam Speaker, there are close to 3,000 workers at ZAMTEL. Somebody needs to speak for them just as we were talking about the 200 workers in Zambian Airways. If we do not do this, they will end up on the streets. At this point, the Government does not have the money to recapitalise ZAMTEL. Therefore, we have to make efforts to find a strategic equity partner, a decision that was made in May, 2008, after consultations with the then President, the late Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. This has been a continuous process carried out by the technical team. We are very clear, in our road map, on what needs to be achieved. This is why you may have seen media reports that the ZAMTEL union, which understands what is at stake and which I have engaged very much, appreciates that what we are trying to do with ZAMTEL is not to re-invent the wheel, but merely to save jobs so that the company can become competitive and pay dividends to the Government.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I agree that before any asset is sold, it must be evaluated. However, it is common knowledge, in Zambia, that tender procedures have to be followed. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why tender procedures were not followed because only one person was picked to undertake the work. Furthermore, is the MoU that was signed with this company binding or can it be set aside if the Zambian people are not happy with the transaction?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, in my statement, I clearly explained this. Allow me, to read the paragraph relating to the tender procedures followed again.

Madam Speaker, I said that the House and the general public may wish to know that none of the companies alluded to earlier expressed interest to undertake the valuation exercise except RP Capital Group. As provided for in the Public Procurement Act No.12 of 2008, passed by this House, RP Capital Group was selected on the basis of limited selection tender process. This means that we actually did follow the tender procedures. Within our ministry, we are permitted to tender consultancy services of up to K7 billion without going to the Zambia National Tender Board (ZNTB). Our agreement with RP Capital Group was that any administrative refunds after the evaluation would not be more than US$50,000, which is the equivalent of K250million, way below our ministerial threshold of K7 billion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, in a competitive tender process, when you advertise and receive less than three quotations, you have to re-advertise. Why did the ministry not re-advertise the evaluation of ZAMTEL if only one company had shown interest because this is a very sensitive issue which should not be single sourced?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, for clarity, I will read the paragraph again.

 The House and the general public may wish to know that none of the companies alluded to earlier expressed interest to undertake the valuation exercise except for RP Capital Group. As provided for in the Public Procurement Act No. 12 of 2008, RP Capital Group was selected on the basis of limited selection tender process. Pursuant to circular 1 of 2009, effective 12th December, 2008, the ministerial threshold for consultancy services is K7 billion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, between the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister and the issues raised by the media, we are at loss as to who is telling the truth. I would like to ask the hon. Minister to come to the House with a ministerial statement which will be clear enough. She should also indicate to the House that she has exonerated herself. She has not exonerated herself by her statement.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister cannot be compelled by an hon. Member to bring a ministerial statement to the House.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Madam Speaker, I was listening to the ministerial statement on the radio in my car.

Hon. MMD Member: You have a car?

Mrs Phiri: Hon. Minister, the telecoms industry and Zambian Airways fall under your ministry.  I am an interested party in Zambian Airways because my spouse was one of the genuine buyers of Zambian Airways. They were paid US$1 each. Are you going to follow-up the matter and make sure that the workers of Zambian Airways are not paid 5 ngwee by the directors?

Madam Speaker, I am very emotional about this issue because I lost my child because of it and some directors have died. Can you assure this House, hon. Minister?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Compelling as the question may be, we are dealing with another issue, today, and not Zambian Airways.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, I am sorry that we are harping on about this subject on this side of the House. However, why were Zambian consultants, valuation companies and auditors not invited to put in their proposals? We all know who they are and where they are. How were they to know that they had to beat a path to the hon. Minister’s door in response to a tender that was not even advertised? Can she clarify without reading again? We heard what she said, but that is not the answer.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, the Government has processes and procedures. It also has agencies that oversee issues of this nature. The ZDA is mandated by law to oversee and implement the privatisation, whether partial or total, of Government assets. That is why, on the advice of my colleagues in Government and on consultation with the late President Mwanawasa, it was decided that ZDA be the local advisor. That is why it is party to the MoU. The ZDA can contract whoever it pleases to give it expert advice on this matter so that it advises the Government, through my ministry. Also after various consultations within the Government, it was clear that we needed international advice because we were going to sell this company on the international market.

Therefore, we had both local and international advisors as party to this agreement; the local advisor, ZDA, which is at liberty to contract any consultancy services locally or internationally, and the international advisor, RP Capital Group. This was done to ensure we got the true value of ZAMTEL to avoid the mistake that was made in the past of selling Government assets without understanding their true value.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, I do not know whether it would be reckoned as interest, but I worked for ZAMTEL for fifteen years and retired as internal auditor on 11th May, 2002. I, therefore, have a very strong passion for this company. Seeing it go down really makes my heart bleed.

Madam Speaker, the Government is one of ZAMTEL’s biggest debtors in unpaid bills. Ironically, ZAMTEL, on the other hand, is one of the Government’s biggest debtors in tax liabilities. The tax liability computation is directly co-related to debtors. In other words, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Member ask her question.

Ms Masiye: Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister admit that the Government has, in fact, contributed to the downfall of ZAMTEL by its bureaucratic and untimely payment of these debts and, therefore, due care must be taken in the way they hand over their own baby.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I take note of the question from the hon. Member of Parliament. As a Government and ZAMTEL, we are always consulting on these matters. We are actually doing our best. What is clear is that we cannot fold our hands because something needs to be done about ZAMTEL, otherwise, the company will collapse. In fact, it is only due to Government efforts that this company still exists and has not already been liquidated. The point is taken. However, over the years, the Government and ZAMTEL have always exchanged their debts.

 I thank You, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

____{mospagebreak}

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when exactly the new investor for Luanshya Copper Mine (LCM) is going to be engaged. The people of Luanshya are suffering. Could you tell us when exactly the investor is coming?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Madam Speaker, at the moment, we have a technical committee looking into the matter. We have also been discussing issues to do with procedure. Therefore, we are going to follow the procedures and ensure that we identify an equity partner when everything has been put in place.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when the shortage of mealie-meal in the country will come to an end.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives came to this House and explained the issues surrounding the maize shortages. This is a matter that we are looking into. We are employing various options to purchase maize both locally and internationally and contracts have been signed. We are trying, as much as possible, to get enough maize stocks. Therefore, we are addressing that issue.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the very hard working Vice-President, when the Kaputa/Chienge Electricity Grid will be completed. Since it was launched by the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, it appears like very little has happened. When will it be completed?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I cannot put any date on that. However, the Rural Electrification Programme is one of the targeted programmes. Therefore, the matter will be looked into.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, my concern is the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) in Kafue. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government has any intentions to privatise NCZ because the company is facing a lot of problems.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, this year, we have budgeted for the retrenchment of workers, but we are also considering looking for an equity partner. Therefore, that matter is under consideration.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Madam Speaker, there is a lot of hunger in the country at the moment. Statements have been made that maize should not be smuggled or taken to other countries. I heard the Republican President tell people along the Zambia/Zimbabwe border that they are free to take this maize out of the country to their Zimbabwean brothers. Therefore, I wonder whether this shortage of maize is going to come to an end. What is the Government’s position vis-à-vis maize going to other countries?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, we have put in place measures to control the movement of maize in border areas. The other day, I was in Livingstone and I saw the situation. Of course, we have to take into account the interest of our people, but, at the same time, we are members of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA). If maize is moving within authorised channels and taking into account the interests of our people, then it is fine. Therefore, we advocate an orderly way of dealing with these strategic commodities.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport alluded to the fact that there are plans to revamp the Mulobezi Railway Line so that it runs to Namibia. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the feasibility study has already started or we have to wait for some time.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the feasibility study is not yet ready. However, this year, we have made a budgetary allocation to it so that we can revamp that project.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Madam Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President, who comes from my constituency, help find a solution to the problem in Ndola Central Parliamentary Constituency regarding the completion of projects such as roads which are always budgeted for, but have not been done in the last three years.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament is aware of certain budgetary allocations regarding roads, it his duty, as hon. Member of Parliament, to assist in budget implementation. If you are aware of any shortcomings, you can bring them to the attention of the Government.

Madam Speaker, it is our intention, as a Government, to improve on budget execution and expedite the tender process and other related issues which delay road construction and rehabilitation. I am aware of the problem. That is why, every year, we allocate funds for road rehabilitation, especially in urban areas.

  Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tembo (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President how the Government intends to resolve the issue of human/animal conflict in the nation, and in particular in Nyimba Parliamentary Constituency where a councillor was eaten by a lion and a villager killed by an elephant.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the Wildlife Act regulates human/ animal conflict. Therefore, that is a matter which can be reported to the local wildlife authorities.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, recently, information has been circulating that the poor performance of some of the boards of parastatal companies is as a result of the boards being filled with party cadres. May His Honour the Vice-President confirm whether it is the policy of the Government to fill the boards with party cadres who have no experience in board matters?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I am surprised to hear that question. The boards are filled according to the legal provisions which relate to each board. People are required to have certain qualifications to be appointed to a particular board. Membership of a political party is not one of those qualifications. At the same time, the practice, even internationally, is that when a government comes into office, it has to fill appointments. This is done even in America. You find thousands and thousands of posts being filled.

Mr Muntanga: 5,000!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: You said 5,000 posts?

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Some of these positions must be filled taking into account qualifications and, of course, people who can make it possible for you to realise your vision.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, the copper industry has received a lot of attention from the Government in terms of tax breaks of one sort or another to try and help it through these difficult times. It is not the only industry which has been affected by the world economic meltdown. The horticultural industry is virtually in its death throes; the tourism industry is screaming and the sugar industry is about to experience a very bad time. Is the Government also talking to these alternative industries, including the cotton and beef industries, so that they can also be given tax breaks and incentives or is it just copper which is still king?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, time and again, we have stated here that the Government is committed to the diversification of the economy. When preparing the Budget, we consult various stakeholders in the economy. Of course, where incentives are required, they can be given if a convincing case is made to the Government. The measures we intend to employ this year have already been announced in the Budget. However, if there are any suggestions for the future, for instance, for next year’s Budget, we can continue to engage the various stakeholders so that we can improve our economy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kakusa (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, when will China/Mulungushi Textiles be reopened?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I remember visiting Kabwe recently, and the issue of China/Mulungushi Textiles came up. I asked the hon. Minister of Defence for a report on the current status of the company. Negotiations are still going on with the Chinese Government. We had a meeting with a delegation from China, including the Minister of Commerce of China, where this issue was tabled. However, we shall pursue it further by, perhaps, even sending a delegation to China so that we can continue to review the position of China/Mulungushi Textiles and consider options of dealing with the company.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Limata (Luampa): Madam Speaker, when are you going to dissolve the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) board?

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is looking into that matter. The procedure for changing boards is to make a suggestion to Cabinet through the minister responsible. Once a newly constituted board is approved by Cabinet, it is put in place. Therefore, this is a matter which is being looked into.

You will recall that in 2005, we amended the Food Reserve Act in this House and the composition which is prescribed in that Act is what should be followed. Therefore, the matter is under active consideration.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, what steps has the Government taken to cushion the country from the effects of the global economic recession bearing in mind the advice by international experts that Zambia should avoid borrowing from the international financial institutions in an attempt to mitigate the global economic crisis.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the interventions we intend to employ to solve the global financial crisis were well covered in the speech given by the President on the opening of Parliament. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning also covered these interventions in his Budget Address.

The Economics Association of Zambia (EAZ) also held a seminar for Parliamentarians in which they explained that the measures we are employing in Zambia are the correct ones. Therefore, those measures, which include the diversification of the economy, will be employed.

However, I must also mention that our economy is different in structure and modalities from the Western economies. For example, some of the economies which have been severely affected in Europe are credit based. Most people finance their activities through credit. That is why they are susceptible to certain shocks. That is not the case with Zambia. Therefore, the effect of the global economic crisis is different here and the measures which we are taking to address it have been explained extensively.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, now that the Grade 10 results have been announced, people would like to send their children to school. I would like to know whether His Honour the Vice-President will announce to this House when the ban on the movement of cattle in the Southern Province will be lifted.

Hon. UPND Member: He has no answer.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I am told that the issue of livestock diseases is still being tackled by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. Therefore, a decision will be made once that issue has been considered properly.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I am told that it has already been lifted.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Madam Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking His Excellency the President and His Honour the Vice-President for sending relief food to the affected areas.

Madam Speaker, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to shed more light on the issue of relief food so that the people on your left hand side can see that this is a working Government.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, that subject is close to my heart.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, as I have explained before, we are now working in twenty-nine districts distributing relief food. I have been in contact with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and a sum of K17 billion will be released soon so that we can carry on with our activities of relief food distribution and disaster management.

Madam Speaker, it is also important for us to realise that to deal with the question of hunger, we should grow more food in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: That is why we should strengthen the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) and other interventions.

As regards the distribution of relief food, our programme will be intensified so that we complete the exercise in the areas we have been working in, including many of the areas in Southern Province.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government plans to provide free vaccines to peasant farmers so that they can also contribute to the diversification of the economy.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I have just been told that we have a programme of providing free vaccines.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, some people at the grassroots level are against the idea of forming a United States of Africa, and yet a few weeks ago the Government announced that it was for the idea. Is the Government going to make a U-turn on this?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the Government will definitely consult the people of Zambia on this issue. It has been agreed in principle, at Heads of State and Government levels. We, of course, need to consult other people, including Parliament, because there are certain laws we have to put in place. Further, this will also entail changes to the Constitution. Therefore, it is not something …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was explaining the process through which the African Government concept, if at all it will be introduced, will have to go through.

Madam, this is a complex process which will require consulting our people and changing our laws, including the Constitution, to suit that Government. What will be the nature of that Government? Will it be a Federal system or not? This is not an easy thing which we, as a Government, can just say we have decided to introduce. In principle, it is acceptable, but we have to do it gradually by consulting the people extensively. We would also have to look at our structures to see whether we can accept such a system as the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President how closely the Resettlement Department in the Office of the Vice-President works with the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to ensure that people evicted from national parks, game management areas (GMAs) and gazetted forests are resettled in areas that have services such as water, schools and clinics so that the resistance we get when people are resettled reduces.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I have indicated in this House before that we have resettlement schemes throughout the nine provinces. In gazetting resettlement areas, we follow established legal processes. The idea is to help the people resettle. Of course, as one Government, we work with the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and the Ministry of Lands in de-gazetting areas. However, there must be a convincing case for this to be done.

Madam Speaker, the reason we have forests, GMAs and reserves is to preserve these areas for various reasons. We have resettlement schemes and the idea is that when we establish these schemes, we should also provide various amenities so that our people can settle in those areas comfortably.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether single sourcing is allowed in the Government.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I wish he had asked that question earlier because it is very important, especially because of some legal opinions I read in the newspapers which suggested that single sourcing was illegal.

Madam Speaker, single sourcing is an established and accepted mode of engaging experts, consultants, consultancy services and even procuring goods and services. We passed the Public Procurement Act No. 12 of 2008 which provides for limited selection. It also provides for direct bidding. You can bid directly for services, especially where you are engaging experts such as consultants, lawyers and valuers. It is possible to go directly to these professionals and engage them, of course, taking into account the provisions of the Public Procurement Act No. 12 of 2008.

Madam Speaker, for example, with regard to the engagement of lawyers, laws such as the Legal Practitioners Act apply. Therefore, you can go directly to these professionals. Section 32 of the Public Procurement Act No. 12 of 2008, which relates to direct bidding, provides that if there is an emergency or urgent need for certain services making it impracticable to use other methods of procurement because of the time involved in using those methods, you can use direct bidding or limited selection. Therefore, this is a lawful way of engaging especially consultancy services.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

____

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PROMOTION OF RICE GROWING IN WESTERN, LUAPULA AND CENTRAL PROVINCES

119. Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West) (on behalf of Mr Imenda) (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what plans the ministry had made to promote rice growing in Western, Luapula and Central provinces on a commercial basis to enhance food security in the country.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Madam Speaker, the ministry is promoting rice production in areas where it is suitable. The ministry has a research programme where it is developing different types of paddy rice varieties for production in Zambia. At the moment, the research team is working on an upland rice variety called New Rice for Africa (NERICA) which will do well in a number of areas, including Central Province.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulonga: Initial efforts by the ministry to promote rice production in Luapula were unsuccessful. The ministry has concentrated its efforts on other crops more adaptable to the area such as cassava, maize and palm oil.

Madam Speaker, in Western Province, the ministry has been promoting rice growing as well as a seed multiplication programme as lack of pure seed is the major problem due to variety contamination. Further, the ministry is promoting rice growing schemes such as the Sefula Irrigation Scheme.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Imbwae: Madam Speaker, with the challenges that we are facing regarding food security, is the hon. Minister aware that there are varieties that are doing well in Western Province? Are you considering demarcating land to create rice blocks so that we can grow whatever we can to improve the food security in the country?

Mr Mulonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for the information she has given us. We will make a follow up on those rice varieties. However, the ministry is quite aware that the province is capable of producing more rice than it is. That is why in Lukulu, where she comes from, Mongu, Kalabo and Chavuma, we have been sensitising the farmers to use 40 per cent of the fertiliser they receive under the FSP on rice production. That is recognition of the fact that in these areas, there is potential for more rice production. We have done this to alleviate the poverty she is talking about and encourage diversification from maize to rice production.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

MEASURES TO ENCOURAGE GROWING OF CASH CROPS

120. Ms Imbwae (on behalf of Mr Imenda) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what measures the ministry had taken to encourage the growing of the following cash crops in the country:

(a) cocoa;

(b) cashew nuts; and

(c) castor beans.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker,

The ministry is currently not promoting the growing of cocoa because there has been no research done on the crop in Zambia to ascertain its performance under local conditions. The ministry’s research wing is, however, in the process of acquiring some research materials in order to examine the adaptability of cocoa in the country. The results of the research will guide the way forward regarding the promotion of the crop in Zambia.

The ministry has taken a number of measures to encourage the growing of cashew nuts, such as:

(a) the development of the cashew nuts out-grower scheme with a view to revamping and commercialising the cashew nut industry. Under this programme, the processing plant in Mongu, which was not functional for a decade, was rehabilitated and is now functional, although processing is at low levels. The rehabilitation of the processing equipment has facilitated the creation of a market for cashew nut farmers in Western Province;

(b) the ministry has trained Agricultural Extension Officers under the scheme, who are now training farmers in cashew nut management. The scheme is also supporting seedling production of a dwarf high-yielding variety to replace the old varieties; and

(c) the Government, through the ZDA, is assisting the Western cashew nut industries to source investment partners.

The ministry, through the Zambia Agriculture Research Institute (ZARI), had selected castor bean varieties that are suitable to be grown in Zambia.

Farmers had started growing the crop when there was a company in Lusaka that was buying castor bean seeds. However, the company closed and farmers had nowhere to sell their bean seeds and stopped growing the crop. The ministry will encourage the growing of the crop when the market is assured.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Imbwae: Madam Speaker, does the ministry know that currently the price of castor beans and cashew nuts on the international market is much higher than the price of copper? What efforts are they making to make sure that we can break into this market?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the ministry is making all efforts to create local market before we start looking at the export market.
Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, the original problem regarding the cashew nut scheme in Western Province, under which 2 million trees were planted, was that no research, variety identification and agronomy had been established for this crop in this unprecedented environment. It normally grows on the coast.  That was the whole problem. Now, the hon. Minister tells us that he is going to encourage people to remove 2 million trees and plant another 2 million of a different variety. Has the necessary research for this crop been done yet?

Dr Scott left his microphone on.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Switch off your microphone.

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, the plants have already been sourced and we have about 5,000 hectares of land for the new high yielding plants that we have acquired from Namibia.

I thank you, Madam.

WOMEN WHO HAVE BENFITED FROM THE TOURISM DEVELOPMENT FUND

121. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources whether Zambian women had benefited from the Tourism Development Fund as of 31st December, 2008.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Tembo): Madam Speaker, as at 31st December, 2008, thirty women had benefited from the Tourism Development Credit Facility (TDCF) loans out of the 126 beneficiaries. It is important to note that the loans were given to business entities and not individuals, hence, the women benefited as members of those business entities.

Madam Speaker, allow me to lay the list of these enterprises on the Table since the list is too long for me to go through.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Tembo laid the list on the Table.

Ms Tembo left her microphone on.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Please switch off your microphone.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the ministry whether there is an affirmative action plan now that we are talking of 50 per cent women empowerment. We are not talking about 50 per cent women representation in Parliament and other decision-making positions only, but also in projects like this. What measures have been put in place to ensure that men and women benefit equally from this facility?

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Speaker, this fund is no longer under us. It has been moved to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). Therefore, I would like to advise the hon. Member to pose that question to the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

GOVERNMENT GRANTS TO MISSION HOSPITALS

122. Ms Limata asked the Minister of Health what measures the ministry had taken to ensure that Government grants to mission hospitals were properly accounted for.
The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, in order to ensure that Government grants to mission hospitals are properly accounted for, the ministry has taken the following measures:

In line with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning guidelines, all Ministry of Health institutions, including mission hospitals, are required to prepare an activity-based budget of all the activities that they plan to implement in a particular year. The budget is a very important tool in ensuring that funds are properly accounted for.

The Ministry of Health publishes, in the press, details of grants released to all institutions, including mission hospitals. This measure is undertaken to ensure that all stakeholders have appropriate information on the funding levels to the various institutions.

In line with Government procedures and guidelines, hospital accounting staff prepares and submits monthly expenditure returns to the provincial health office. These are consolidated on a quarterly basis in the Integrated Financial Management System (IFMIS) by the Ministry of Health in conjunction with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. This measure provides data on a hospital’s budget, actual expenditure and variances if any.

The Ministry of Health internal audit unit conducts both special as well as routine audits on all health institutions. This process helps ensure that Government grants are properly accounted for. The last major audit for Luampa Mission Hospital was conducted about four years ago. However, there is an auditor on site currently undertaking an audit of the mission hospital. I should also mention that the ministry faces the challenge of inadequate human resources in this field, hence, the time it takes to cover all the health facilities.

Health institutions, including mission hospitals, are subjected to statutory external audits by the Auditor-General’s Office. These audits ensure that institutions account for public resources properly.

Madam Speaker, capacity building is a key factor in ensuring that institutions perform at the desired level. In this regard, the ministry has ensured that health institutions are staffed with adequately trained accounting staff. In addition, the ministry has provided the necessary equipment, computers and appropriate accounting packages. These computer-based solutions are appropriate tools in ensuring that institutions account for resources properly. Other measures include the joint annual review in which health experts from the Government and co-operating partners visit health facilities in order to review the performance of the institutions. This also helps to ensure that resources are accounted for properly.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the ministry if there has ever been a time when a hospital was found wanting on the measures that the hon. Minister has explained to us. If that has happened before, what action was taken against such an institution?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. There are always sanctions for breach of accounting procedures or regulations. These breaches are detected when an audit is carried out. This House is part of the wings of Government that play an oversight role on the Executive. As hon. Members may be aware, the Auditor-General’s Report highlights the misuse of Government resources and appropriate action is taken as required by law.

I thank you, Madam.

CONTROL OF FLOODS IN LUSAKA

123. Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:

(a) how much work had been done to control floods in Mississi, Makeni and Kanyama areas in Lusaka; and

(b) how much money had been spent on the work at (a) above so far.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Madam Speaker, in addressing this question, I need to remind hon. Members of Parliament that Lusaka District, among others in the country, received excessive rainfall during the 2007/2008 rainy season. The excessive rainfall resulted in floods, especially in high density townships such as Kanyama and Mississi and areas such as Makeni.

Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to brief the House on the work that has been done to control floods in Lusaka. In recognising the importance of controlling the floods, the Government constituted a task force to manage the flood situation in Lusaka. The task force comprised the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in my office, the Ministry of Works and Supply, Lusaka District, Lusaka City Council (LCC), Zambia National Service (ZNS), Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force (ZAF), Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company (LWSC) and other public institutions.

Hon. Members will agree with me that the starting point of control is to identify the causes. The task force, therefore, carried out an assessment which identified, among others, the following as causes of the floods in Lusaka:

(a) absence of basic drainage systems;

(b) illegal allocation and development of land;

(c) deliberate blockage of drains;

(d) presence of impervious rocks; and

(e) indiscriminate disposal of waste.

The House may further wish to know that a number of activities needed to be carried out in order to mitigate the flooding. The activities identified were broken down into two major sub areas of concern namely drainage and accessibility.

Hon. Members may be interested to know that under the drainage activities, the following have been done:

(a) unblocking, digging and clearing of roadsides and main drains;

(b) removal of garbage;

(c) pumping out of water;

(d) replacement of culverts;

(e) construction of concrete slabs; and

(f) sensitisation of the communities in question.

Madam Speaker, under accessibility activities, the following has been done:

(a) improving accessibility of public institutions; and

(b) construction of foot bridges.

Sir, hon. Members may wish to know that in 2008, the Government released K8.2 billion for the above listed works in the affected townships in Lusaka. Out of this, a total of K5.8 billion was spent last year. The balance of K2.4 billion was carried forward to this year. The programme is on-going to ensure that any floods this year are under control. The contracts of works done were based on the scope of works and not necessarily on townships.

Hon. Members interested in the information are welcome to consult Lusaka City Council on the scope of works done in Lusaka.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe: Madam Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President aware that despite works going on, these areas are still flooded?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, this is the rainy season, therefore, the floods are still there. Flooding usually occurs after a heavy down pour, but because of the works that we have done, the water drains within a few minutes.

Madam Speaker, both the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and Muvi Television have the tendency of capturing situations when there is temporary flooding, thus, portraying to the public that the flooding is constant, which is not the case. Therefore, these on-going works are meant to address the problem of flooding.

I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}

Reverend Sampa-Bredt (Chawama): Is His Honour the Vice-President aware that the local building industry is contributing to the floods in Mississi, Kuku, John Laing, Kanyama and Makeni areas. The continued excavation of stones leaves huge ditches posing a danger to people. These ditches collect a lot of water which has turned into dams, hence, causing floods. Every so often, women and children drown in these ditches. What is the Government doing about this illegal business?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, we are looking into some of these issues continuously through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. However, the problem which we face in Lusaka is the politicising of wrong things. When we try to take action against illegal quarrying and other illegal activities, some political parties take it as fertile ground to mislead people and try to cause insecurity and instability. We will continue looking into these issues and what you have stated has been taken note of.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Chishya (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, overcrowding in these compounds is the cause of disease due to poor sanitary conditions and unreasonable human activities and, indeed, crime. Is the Government considering resettling some of the residents of these compounds?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the other day, I launched the intended Development Plan for Lusaka. This is an integrated plan which looks at various issues, including overcrowding and illegal settlements. However, these issues can only be addressed over a long period of time. Therefore, we are aware of that situation in Lusaka.

 Thank you, Madam.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, in my opinion, the only solution is to put in place storm water drainages. This would call for the demolition of certain houses, which would cost huge sums of money. I would like to find out if His Honour the Vice-President agrees with me.
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, as I said, we have an integrated plan which we intend to implement with our co-operating partners. I do agree with him that it requires huge resources. Being an expert in engineering, I have no reason to doubt what the hon. Member has said. All I can say is that this is a complex matter which we are addressing through the expertise in our councils and planning authorities.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Madam Speaker, does the Government have any plans to upgrade areas like Kanyama, Chibolya and Mississi, especially Chibolya?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the integrated plan includes the upgrading of certain compounds and, resources allowing, we have such plans.

I thank you, Madam.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, going by the billions of Kwacha spent on drainages in Kanyama, may I learn from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice which company was contracted to do the works, especially in Kanyama.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I do not have that information off hand. All I can say is that the work was done as itemised above.

Thank you, Madam.

____________

MOTION

BUDGET 2009

(Debate resumed)

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Madam Speaker, when business was suspended yesterday, I was emphasising the need to have proper infrastructure in our country.

Madam Speaker, this is an economic ministry which is also responsible for infrastructure development. The ministry is committed to seeing that the Vision 2030 is achieved. In fact, some of us who are young enough will witness the Vision 2030 in Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, Zambia must have adequate communication facilities as well as proper road, rail, water and air transport. This is why we want to solve the ZAMTEL problems quickly and no outside forces can derail us.

Madam, let me invite the private sector, be it Zambian or foreign, to see us.  Contracts can be awarded by single sourcing, which is allowed, or tender for jobs …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: … in e-governance, railway feasibility studies, the supply of boats and construction works such as bridges, border posts and airport expansion. Therefore, do not sit back, Hon. Mwila, because you also qualify.
Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member must speak through the Chair and not directly to the hon. Member.

May he continue, please.

Mr Mubika: Thank you very much. I encourage people not to sit back, but to come forward and work with us.

Madam Speaker, there are some issues which I fail to understand in this country. I fail to understand the issue of Zambians having short memories. It is true that the MMD Government demolished houses in Kanyama in the early 1990s. However, the question is: who was the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing at that time? Was it Hon. Masebo or Hon. Tetamashimba? The other question is: who, in the MMD, in the early 1990s, went to Chawama with thugs and harassed all the people there …

Hon. Member: With pangas.

Mr Mubika: … with pangas …

Hon. Member: Knob kerries.

Mr Mubika: … and stones? In the process, some women lost their ears whilst others were badly hurt.

The other question is: who in the MMD was fond of expelling others? I remember that twenty-two hon. Members of Parliament, including the then Vice-President, were expelled from the MMD.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: That is how the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) was born. It was because of one person.

Madam Speaker, it is surprising to note that all these people who were affected in one way or the other are, today, praising and rallying behind the heartless man who caused so much harm in their lives.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 The hon. Deputy Minister must be careful not to continuously use innuendos. May he debate in a direct manner.

May he continue, please.

Mr Mubika: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, let me appeal to some of these people to come back to the MMD where they belong. I remember Hon. Kasongo, who is my uncle and a hardworking Member of Parliament, and Hon. Dr Machungwa. Hon. Kasongo was once an Independent Member of Parliament, hon. Deputy Minister and Permanent Secretary. He was hounded out of the MMD by somebody who followed him in PF and he is now being expelled.

Laughter

Mr Mubika: Therefore, uncle, come back to the MMD.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

There are no uncles here.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, through you, let me urge those who are being expelled that they belong here. They should come back to the MMD before the anaconda swallows them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate.

Madam, in the first place, I want to recognise the sentiments expressed on my ministry by many hon. Members of Parliament vis-à-vis the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I can clearly state that the people on your right do not have wax in their ears. I am sure they must have heard those comments…

Dr Machungwa: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … from the hon. Members of Parliament and I will be able to discuss that when I talk about the budget for my ministry.

Madam Speaker, we write notes to one another in the House, but it is not good for one to get a note intended for someone else, read it and raise a point of order based on it.  I think there is need to find out…

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 The Chair ruled that that was unparliamentary. May you move on to another issue.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much, Madam.

The other issue I wish to comment on concerns people saying that the MMD looks after its cadres while other parties do not. I will lay the PF Constitution on the Table (showing the House).

The PF Constitution in Article 3, Public Institutions, says:

“The party shall ensure that all the public institutions, state-owned enterprises and popular mass and similar organisations are led by persons who are members of the PF and who are uncompromisingly committed to achieving the party …”

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, what this means is that if their party had been wrongly given a chance to govern, …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … there was going to be no person who was not PF in any institution in this country.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Tetamashimba:  Madam Speaker, let me also read to you from Page 30 of the PF Constitution on the disciplinary organs. The PF has never had a convention and, therefore, this obtains until they go for a convention.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba:  It states at 36(a):

“ The Appointments and Disciplinary Committee of the Central Committee shall be responsible for the discipline of the following leaders, irrespective of the locality where the offence is committed:

(a) (i) Members of the Central Committee;

(ii) Ministers;

(iii) Deputy Ministers;

 (iv) Provincial Political Secretaries; and

 (v) Heads of Zambian Missions

(b) all officers of and above the rank of Assistant Secretary in the party and Government;”

The last one makes me surprised that this document was accepted by the Registrar of Societies. It says:

“(c)  all officers of and above the rank of High Court Judge, including the Director of Public Prosecutions.”

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Tetamashimba: This is what this party is saying.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: The Zambian people must know that this is a political party that is going to inconvenience the Judiciary. It has no respect for the three wings of the Government.  I will lay this document on the Table, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tetamashimba laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. MMD Members: Shame!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, in their debate, my colleagues, specifically from the PF, said that the Government had not done anything about the floods and the cholera situation in Kanyama.

Madam Speaker, I agree that my colleagues in the PF have the right to say things like that. However, we all remember that in 2002, the PF made a pronouncement to the nation, through its president, that it was going to show President Mwanawasa how local authorities were run by the PF. That statement was made after a Central Committee meeting. The PF said it would do that in the districts that were run by it. Now, I want to come to Lusaka which is run by the PF.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, Lusaka had about 856 Cholera cases, if I am not mistaken. Out of those, sixteen lives were lost. I am looking at the hon. Minister of Health just to confirm my figures. 
Madam Speaker, there were a lot of floods. To the Government, this shows that the PF has clearly failed to manage its councils.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to the Zambians that as we go to 2011, do not listen to people who tell lies. Sorry about the use of the word ‘lies’.  Do not listen to people who misinform you and then fail to do what they promised during the period of their mandate.

Madam Speaker, in 2002, when the Lusaka City Council was led mostly by the PF and United Party for National Development (UPND), if I am not mistaken.

Hon. MMD Members: FDD!

Mr Tetamashimba:  Yes, when we had elections in 2001, the FDD and UPND had the most councillors in the council.  No cholera case was recorded that year.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: However, when you gave power to the PF, all these cholera cases began to come up.

Laughter

Hon. MMD Member: PF is cholera!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, they have been asking what the ministry or the Government has done because they have failed to deliver on their promises.

Hon. PF Members: Give us the money!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health and I co-chaired a meeting where we decided to raise money to help the people in cholera affected areas such as Kanyama, Kuku, and John Laing through the provision of free water. To this effect, the water utilities donated over K500 million towards the provision of free water for the people of Kanyama, in a district that was said to be properly looked after by the PF. Other donors put up about fifty-five tanks which are providing water free of charge.

Madam Speaker, what makes me sad is that after we got money from the utility companies and the other donors, I wrote letters to each of the MPs in Lusaka District asking them to donate K30 million each from their K400 million CDF to enable us continue providing free water up to April when the situation would improve.

 Hon. PF Members: Why?

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, all the hon. Members of Parliament refused.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba:  This is their district and all the MPs are from the PF. I expected them to be in the forefront after seeing that the hon. Minister had helped them with some money. They have refused to support the people. They have refused to provide free water to Kanyama and Chawama.

Hon. PF Member: Is that debate?

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes it is debate.

 Madam Speaker, two days ago, during the debate on Sichifulo, I was surprised to hear the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama …
Hon. MMD Member: He has run away

Mr Tetamashimba: … ask the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources whether water had been provided to the people that had been displaced. I was very shocked that an hon. Member of Parliament who had refused to give money to his own constituency …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … could talk about Sichifulo. He is not fit to talk about Sichifulo. Let genuine hon. Members of Parliament do that.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us give the hon. Member on the Floor the opportunity to speak.

Mr Tetamashimba: I did not expect him to say that because he refused to get a K30 million from K400 million. The seven hon. Members of Parliament in Lusaka have a total of K2.8 billion in the bank. Meanwhile, people are dying of cholera. It is immoral. I would have expected the leader of a political party whose hon. Members of Parliament have K2.8 billion in the bank and which promised the people that it would do its best, to tell them to …

Mr D. Mwila: Which leader?

Hon. MMD Members: Sata, iwe!

Mr Tetamashimba: … donate that money to the people suffering in Lusaka.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Continue hon. Minister.

Mr Tetamashimba: I expected that because that was their pronouncement.

Madam Speaker, I get very surprised that while some hon. Members pretend to speak for the people and like to put the blame on those in the Government, …

Mrs Masiye: On a point of order, Madam.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah, ikala panshi, iwe!

Mr Tetamashimba: … they can do something different. I wish to appeal to my colleagues, the hon. Members of Parliament in Lusaka, to come to the aid of the people who elected them.

Ms Masiye: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Masiye: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister on the Floor is a very eloquent debater, but I am concerned that the he is relegating a responsibility that has been give to him to a political party. Funds from the Government are used …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Can you, please, raise your point of order.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masiye: The Government, and not political parities, has the responsibility, through the civil servants, to implement the Budget.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masiye: Madam Speaker, since when, in the Republic of Zambia, did political parties implement Government budgets? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, all the money raised in Lusaka goes to the Lusaka City Council.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right!

Mr Tetamashimba: The people who make decisions on that money are the councillors and hon. Members of Parliament with my approval. At the moment, they have sent me a budget of K164 billion. When I perused it to see what had been allocated to floods and cholera, which we have been experiencing every year, I found that K1 billion had been provided for floods.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Tetamashimba: That is what they have put there.

Madam, they cannot do that out of a budget of K164 billion. Obviously, they know that I will not accept that. I will make changes to it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr Tetamashimba: With regard to cholera, which has killed the people who voted for them, I expected them to make a provision for how, with the help of the water utility companies and the Government, they would help provide the people of Lusaka with water. They did not provide a ngwee towards the supply of clean water to the people of Kanyama and Lusaka.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised on the hon. Minister and the…

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I am still talking. I allowed another point of order and the House may have seen that I did not make a ruling on it. It is really up to the Chair to decide whether to make a ruling or not.

However, it is very clear that when an hon. Minister is debating, we do not interrupt. That is the …

Mr D. Mwila: Because …
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 It is a known fact that when an hon. Minister is responding to their concerns, hon. Members have to listen. If you are going to interrupt hon. Ministers, then it means you are not ready to listen to the responses to the concerns that have been raised. It is important to remember that councillors and hon. Members of Parliament, just like hon. Ministers, are no longer individuals. They are workers in the Government. The CDF being spoken about is not personal money. Let us understand these things within this context.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, in last year’s  Budget, our colleagues in the Ministry of  Works Supply told us that it cost about K1 billion to construct 1Km of a tarmac road. Perhaps, it has increased to about K1.5 billion this time. I expected the Lusaka City Council to tar about 20 kilometres of a road in Lusaka out of that K164 billion. They cannot do that. Where do they want to take all the money?

Hon. Government Members: Allowances!

Mr Tetamashimba: K164 billion!

Madam Speaker, none of the hon. Provincial Ministers has that kind of money. I think that our colleagues, the hon. Members of Parliament in Lusaka, must start thinking of reallocating part of that money to the roads so that every year, about 20 kilometres would be tarred. It can go a long way.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba:  The people that voted for you will give you respect because they will see that something is being done. I know that your failures will be attributed to me, as hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. I am not going to allow a city council to fail to help the people. Do not expect me to keep quiet when I notice that. I think I was given a pen by the President.

Madam Speaker, when we visited Mapoloto, while people were concerned that the people of Sichifulo were being displaced, …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … the hon. Minister of Health and I said that the people there were living in inhuman conditions. However, the PF hon. Member of Parliament said water and toilets could not be provided there.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes! I have said that before and Hon. Lubinda has not challenged it. We have a responsibility to the people. Whether you were given the mandate wrongly or not, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: … you need to help the people.

Mr Tetamashimba: The PF, which promised the people of Lusaka and the other areas it controls Heaven on earth, has failed. 
Madam Speaker, when the Government sends CDF to districts which are controlled by the PF, the councillors and hon. Members of Parliament agree to pay salaries from that money.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I am appealing to my colleagues …

Hon. PF Members: Where?

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I can confirm, in this House, that if there is any hon. Member of Parliament from the PF who thinks there is no district in Northern Province which has used the K400 million CDF in that manner, and thinks that I am joking, let them come to my office tomorrow.

Hon. PF Members: Why at your office. Tell us here!

Mr Tetamashimba: I promise that if I do not give them that information, I will resign from my ministerial position.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Tetamashimba: I challenge you to come to my office.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: That is risking your life regarding jobs.

Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on the issues relating to our party which our friends have talked about.

I would like to thank the hon. Members of Parliament who spoke on the election of our President. I am very happy with the statement that was made by the President. He said that he was going to run the party, but would only be given the mandate when the people discovered that he was doing a good job.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba:  I want to say that, as a party, we are now more united …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … after electing our acting president.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: We are more united because His Honour the Vice-President will be there to give us counsel. For those who thought that there were divisions in the party, there are no more divisions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon Member: Budget.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, from the word go, I said that I would discuss the Budget when I came to debate my ministry.

Madam Speaker, I want to appeal to my colleagues in Lusaka to give money to the people.

Interruptions
Mr Tetamashimba: If you do not, I will talk about this on every radio station in Lusaka …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … so that I tell the people the type of people governing them who do not care about their living standards. There are hon. Members of Parliament who do…

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

You do not threaten hon. Members of Parliament.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: They have the freedom to speak in this House.

You may continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I really appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to help the people who elected them. They should provide free water to the people. You can say that you will do it, but I can assure you that as long we are around, the PF will never be in Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I would like to debate nothing less and nothing more than the Budget. I just want to give a bit of advice to my colleagues who have the responsibility to implement this Budget.

Madam Speaker, budgeting is simply planning. It is the revenue collection and…

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can we have order in the House. Let us listen to the hon. Member debating.

The hon. Member can continue.

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, the Budget relates to revenue and expenditure. Often, people mistakenly believe that there is a pool of money at the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) or in the ministry that must be expended. The money must be collected first. Therefore, the Budget is a careful balance of the collection of money which is not available and its expenditure. I think that this is how budgeting is done.

Madam, it is very clear that, in the last two years, we were aiming at a gross domestic product (GDP) of 7 per cent and 10 per cent. However, this year, it has come down to 5 per cent. Other economic indicators that back growth have also slid backwards. I have noticed that the Government’s expenditure in some areas has been cut drastically. We are in extraordinary times. Indeed, these are very difficult times because those in the international community who assist us are experiencing a credit crunch. These times need extraordinary abilities to be responded to.

Madam Speaker, this morning, the hon. Leader of Government Business in the House mentioned something that I agree with. He said that the big economies are experiencing a credit crunch because they pay for services on a credit basis. That is a very good understanding of an economic issue by a lawyer and I commend him. If you depend on credit for your daily bread, when the one who gives you kaloba stops, you will be stuck. That is the point he was making. We should not use the credit crunch as an excuse for not taking care of our domestic affairs. Much as we would like to think regionally and internationally, we should act domestically. In this regard, we can deal with situations such as food security effectively without any problem while we can experience problems with petroleum products which are imported.

Madam Speaker, BOZ monetary policy has been run exceptionally well.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Matongo: Well, I will not answer you because you will regret it if I do.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Speak through the Chair and do not listen to hecklers.

The hon. Member may continue.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that BOZ has been run exceptionally well in a poverty-stricken economy. Fiscal management has been difficult due to political reasons, but it is not my duty to debate political issues. It is for those who believe in political buccaneering and favours.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam, we can cut expenditure in order to develop this country. The BOZ has reduced the reserves for banks from 17 per cent to 14 per cent. This means these financial institutions will have more money. On the fiscal front, the Government decided to reduce internal borrowing from 2.6 per cent in 2007 to 1.4 per cent in 2008. This year, it has gone up by 1.8 per cent. By reducing its borrowing, the Government is releasing more money to the banks. The Government has tried to minimise its utilisation of domestic borrowings such as treasury bills, bonds and other financial instruments.

Madam Speaker, what are the banks and our friends on Cairo Road doing to respond to this release of funds to make their money affordable? The argument can no longer be about inflation because year end inflation last year was 9 per cent. It is now around 15.5 per cent and 16 per cent. What justification is there for a bank to lend money at 27 per cent when the rate of inflation is 15 per cent? What justification is there for the banking sector, except that, perhaps, we have not intervened, to hold foreign exchange rates within their excess funds? What justification is there for banks, every Thursday, and foreign insurance companies, every Friday, to externalise funds from operations?  What should be externalised are dividends and management fees and not sales.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Members on your right that we do not want them to control the economy. However, while we need liberalisation, when you reduce economic liberalisation to the equivalent of accepting rape, you will be killing this economy, no matter how much help you get from elsewhere. Every foreigner wants to send their earned money to their base as quickly as possible. It is not wrong to move away from laissez-faire economic management and advise investors that the money they are externalizing is needed here. I have not heard of a country that allows the externalisation of sales. This is very generous indeed.

Madam Speaker, I urge our friends that while tackling the perception that everything is as a result of the credit crunch, they should relook some of their policies internally. I am not against privatisation and do not support the idea or foreign exchange controls. I am for the idea of empowering Zambians to progressively take over privatised institutions.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Matongo: May I remind the hon. Members who may not have been there that nationalisation was fashion en vogue only to the extent that the brilliant minds of the time could upgrade their people to a position where they were able to take over the companies. That was the thinking. However, at some point, privatisation came in and it became fashion en vogue to give away shares in companies. Shares in Zambia Breweries, both the Ndola and Lusaka plants, were sold. I wish to declare interest because I served on that board until three or four years ago. The shares were sold for US$4 million which is scandalous. However, it is history. Let us value our assets competently.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Once we value them competently, we should find good buyers with a very strong component of Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I have been on the Zambia Privatisation Trust Fund (ZPTF) for nearly seven years. When I came to Parliament, I offered to step down. Both hon. Ministers of Finance, Hon. Kasonde and Hon. Magande kept me on the Board of Trustees. I served on that board with the current hon. Minister. We sold shares transparently. This was done by Zambians.

Madam Speaker, we should distinguish when selling assets. Even a non-operational asset has value and requires skill to sell. To sell shares, one needs a bank. Both the hon. Minister and hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning are well informed because we served together on ZPTF for some time. That is not to encourage wrong doing, but simply advice so that the correct thing is done.

Madam Speaker, I want to move to an issue which I would like the hon. Minister to consider. There is nothing like a credit crunch stimulus plan, but an economic development stimulus plan. I advise you not to move away from your normal budgeting. You must carry on with the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) and the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). You must also borrow from the international community’s Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) and stick to your programme of Vision 2030.

Madam Speaker, the stimulus is that we should put our money where our mouth is.  The budget for agriculture, which was at K720 billion last year, has been reduced. The budget for the economic sector ministries has been reduced by K3 billion. Therefore, this is not really putting our money where our mouth is. I am aware of the efforts being made. However, I want to advise the hon. Minister that the running of the Government is at 32.1 per cent while the running of the economic ministries is at about 9 or 10 per cent. I have a detailed analysis of this in case you would like to see it because I do not talk from without.

Hon. Minister, there is no harm in raising money, even at the end of the day, if you have a deficit. In fact, to me, a close look at page 1649 clearly shows a deficit. If this is well managed and you produce food massively, even the inflation rate will come down. There are no mechanics about this. You do not have to go to a school in England to learn political history to understand this. I want to ask you to revisit the 3.1 per cent in the economic sector of your budgeting. You must improve on it a little. I would even say that the cost of running Government at 32.1 per cent, which was at 38.7 per cent last year, is still too high. However, I am afraid you do not have the mandate to reduce it, but can persuade the President to do so in due course.

Madam Speaker, the FSP has been declared a disaster in various Government documentation. Let us make the programme work to improve the agricultural sector. In summary, hon. Minister, I want you to put money into agriculture and dam and road construction. Put money into the rehabilitation of Government buildings. The resultant factor is that jobs will be created and families saved. Put a little more money into the manufacturing sector. You should do your best to fund tourism, which is a very sensitive industry. In fact, if I were you, I would move cautiously. Nonetheless, do something about it. Put more money into fisheries. We want to eat fish in Pemba and not have to come to Lusaka to eat fish. Put more money in livestock development. The programme you have now of one cow for ten people or ten villages cannot work. Take a school as your economic focal point.  Give nine villages forty-five cows and two bulls and let them pay back after three years. That way, you will solve the cattle restocking problem.

Madam Speaker, with regard to Pay As You Earn (PAYE), hon. Minister, you will lose nothing by raising the income tax exempt threshold from K750,000 to about K1,500,000. You will recover this money by simply adjusting the taxes for the banks and businesses. By so doing, you would have helped your workers, the people in the rural areas and those that would have generated income for you to tax in due course by putting more money where our mouths are. That way, we will move forward. Please, reconsider this.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister should not consider scrapping windfall tax. Please, look for a better method, perhaps, suspension. I may say this through the Chair, and I would like to quote the late President Ceausescu, speaking through a former hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is sitting here, who can contradict me if he wishes, Hon. Mwaanga. Hon. Minister, by asking you to reverse your decision on this matter, we are simply saying, “it is only a foolish person who does not put his car into reverse gear when he is approaching a bend or hazardous position.”

Madam Speaker, the price of copper, by yesterday, was rising on the London Stock Exchange. Put it on hold. However, while doing that, please, renegotiate the development agreements. It is not the responsibility of Parliament to deal with agreements. Our responsibility is to back the revenue measures brought to this House by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to fund the three arms of the Government reasonably well so that they do their work. Stop certain arms of the Government negotiating for higher packages at senior level while the lower levels have problems. Look at those figures again. The former Vice-President answered a question on the Floor of the House on whether it was meritorious to have a commission of inquiry, at least for ninety days, to harmonise salaries and pensions in this country because they are a source of conflict. I want the State to help us look after these institutions reasonably well. At Manda Hill, help some voice which usually says, “I have no money,” and we all sympathise. I do not know what they say in the Judiciary and other places.  Let these men work well. They will stop being quarrelsome when they become busy.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, I wish to give a word of advice to those in Government. You may come to us and defend your position because we are here to help you move forward. This is no criticism to anybody. I come from a school and work culture where what is discussed in offices, never goes outside unless it is meant for the public. I have noticed that Parliament is very good at that. It never goes to the public. It is thoroughly embarrassing to read this and that in the press. You do not need to fight to be a man as my young brother was trying to do there. My young lady, you do not have to carry your amour and try to be a Joan of Arc. Let us simply consult and work together. That way, you will receive constructive criticism from us and we will back you because when you are sitting there, you are as much Government as those in the Judiciary and ourselves.

With those few remarks, I wish you well and, please, improve this Budget.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Chair would love to hear more debate addressing the Budget.

The Chief Whip (Mr Mwaanga): Madam Speaker, since this is the first time I am taking the Floor since I rejoined this House on the 14th November, 2008, I want to say how happy I am to be here to be able to work and interact with colleagues not only on this side of the House, but also on the UPND side of the House, where I have many friends, and the PF side of the House, where I equally have many friends.

Madam Speaker, the speech which I am making now is consistent with the position I have taken since I joined this House the first time in 1973, namely, that I will get up to say something when I have something to say and not because I must say something.

 Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, for purposes of record, I will stick to the discipline of the written word.

Madam Speaker, we are living in a time of momentous change that is transforming our country as well as our global society. It is a period of complex challenges, uncertainties and many difficulties which will tax our patience, resolve and innovation. The values that underline our common humanity have to do with enhancing the lives of the ordinary citizens of our country and also much beyond.

Zambia, like the rest of the world, will feel the effects of the global economic meltdown. It can be seen from the Speech by His Excellency, the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, on 16th January, 2009, and the Budget Speech by my illustrious colleague, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, MP, on 30th January, 2009, that this hardworking and listening Government has and is taking a series of measures to minimise the potential impact of this global credit crunch.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, it is with great pride and personal satisfaction that I congratulate and salute his Excellency, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, on his election as the fourth President of our country on 30th October, 2008. His election gives me entire confidence in the future direction of Zambia and I know that he is determined to do even more for the people of Zambia. My personal knowledge of His Excellency, President Banda, which goes back to 1960, when we were both freedom fighters, gives me confidence that he is eminently qualified to occupy this high position …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mwaanga: … and capable of providing the kind of leadership, in the fight against poverty, which this country desperately needs. I am certain that President Banda, who brings a wealth of experience as a diplomat, businessman and politician, will not be guided by the fear of his enemies or detractors in the execution of his duties, but by his hopes and aspirations for the future of our country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, in my many meetings and discussions with his Excellency, President Banda, stretching over forty-nine years, I am always reminded of a passage in William Hazlitt’s Essay entitled “Mind and Motive”, where he says the following:

“Happy are they who live in the dream of their own existence and see all things in the light of their minds; who walk by faith and hope to whom the guiding stare of youth still shines from afar and into whom the spirit of the world has not entered. They have not been hurt by the archers nor has the iron entered their souls. The world has had no hand on them.”

Madam Speaker, we all have a duty to give the new President our unflinching support …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mwaanga: … because this is what our people and the world expect us to do. The laws of natural justice demand that every new President be given a chance to make his own decisions and even his own mistakes.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, during the campaigns leading up to the Presidential By-election of 30th October, 2008, President Banda and other MMD leaders, including myself, emphasised the imperative need for our country to change the way the industry of politics is run. We emphasised the importance of putting Zambia first above all else.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mwaanga: It is my confident expectation that we, in this House, will put our political differences aside, be they real or perceived, which impede or threaten the development and stability of our country for the sake of the people of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Our political beliefs are important, but I submit that the development needs of our people are more important than our political appetites to score cheap political points against each other.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: There should be no enemies in this House and I believe that there are no enemies; only opponents.

There should be no merchants of hatred in this House; only merchants of love, human understanding and compassion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwaanga: We should avoid negative and divisive tendencies that militate against the stability and progress which has been made so far towards a new path of working together for the common good of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: I would like us, collectively to do more, as representatives of the people, to lessen the extent of human misery and to add in no small measure to the sum total of human happiness.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga:  Indeed, the common problems of poverty, hunger, disease, illiteracy and lack of basic human anything, which are even more in scale and complexity in our contemporary situation, are not new or simple. They must be addressed with vigour and imaginative solutions. It is said that this Parliament is also a place for acquiring human knowledge from each other and about each other.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: It is also a place where there is a free environment that gives positive meaning to Mark Twain’s assertion that, “Education is what is left after we have forgotten what we have been taught.”

Madam Speaker, I know that all of us in this House have a fundamental commitment to political values and principles. I also know that we accept and passionately embrace the proven and unquenchable desire of the people of Zambia for personal freedom, development, human rights and good governance. The greatest gift I can give to the people of Zambia is the gift of myself and my experience based on the many long years of public service and devotion to duty which has made it possible for me to be passionate about the majesty of public service to my country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: It will take extraordinary events to equal my achievement of serving all the four Presidents our country has had since 1964.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, the Speech by the President of the Republic of Zambia, President Banda, to this House on January 16th and the Budget Speech by my friend and colleague, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, on Friday, 30th January, 2009, amounted to an invitation to us, as hon. Members of Parliament, to participate in the urgent and immediate process of creating a rational and equitable national economic order to bring about development and direct the scarce national resources to critical areas of the economy of our country through a progressive and radical change in the distribution of our national wealth.

These are difficult times and a realistic approach is required to deal with the current problems. Simplistic solutions will simply not do.

Mr Mbulakulima: It is true!

Mr Mwaanga: We must always draw a distinction between what we want and what is possible given the limited national resources and the prevailing economic environment in our country and the world at large.

Madam Speaker, the major revision in the windfall tax in this year’s Budget, is an attempt by the Government to ensure that our country continues to be attractive to local and international investors in this important sector of the economy.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: By all accounts, it is clear that this measure has been well received.

The increase in the PAYE tax exempt threshold will ensure that our hardworking citizens take home a little more money than has been the case so far. The allocations which have been devoted to education, health, agriculture, tourism, road infrastructure, airports and other services, to mention just a few, underlines the importance this Government attaches to social programmes and to areas which have potential to grow the economy and which are of direct benefit to the ordinary people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: It would be unrealistic to expect the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to exhaust all the tax options available to him in one budget. I know of no minister of finance anywhere in the world who does that and I have been to 143 countries in the world to talk confidently about this subject.

Laughter

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, it is evident that Zambia will continue to play an important role in regional and international affairs. Our country has had a long history of playing a constructive role in resolving conflicts in the region and elsewhere as can be seen from the results of the recent Southern African Development Community (SADC) Summit held in Pretoria at the end of January, 2009, to discuss the unfolding situation in neighbouring Zimbabwe. It is my hope that the swearing in of Mr Morgan Tsvangirai as Prime Minister of Zimbabwe and Professor Arthur Mutambara and Ms Thokozani Khupe as Deputy Prime Ministers on Wednesday, 11th February, 2009, marks the beginning of a genuine power sharing government which will urgently address the enormous problems facing the people of Zimbabwe who have had to endure so much pain and suffering. I am confident that this House will join me in encouraging and wishing Zimbabwean political leaders well in this important and historic undertaking.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: They owe it to their people, country and the region to make the Unity Government work.

Hon. Member: They are young!

Mr Mwaanga: In order for us to achieve the kind of things President Banda and Hon. Dr Musokotwane talked about, there is need to change our work culture. We must all put in an honest day’s work, in the words of President Banda. In this regard, it is important for us to explain to the people of Zambia what we are doing in this House with humility and sincerity and to listen to them, to answer their questions freely and openly and to see to it that Government programmes in our areas are implemented properly and fairly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: By doing this, we shall increase the confidence the people have in our collective leadership. We cannot control what others say or do, but we can control what we ourselves say and do.

Madam Speaker, despite the many gloomy prophecies of those who do not always wish us well, …

Laughter

Mr Mwaanga: … we have achieved many things, as a Government, over the years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: We have worked hard and made many changes of great benefit to our people, but it is only appropriate to state with honesty and candour that we have not always achieved everything we wanted to achieve at the beginning of our development journey. We recognise that there is still much more work to be done. We are determined to walk that extra mile to ensure that what we have not yet achieved, remains on our development agenda.

Yes, Madam Speaker, I do not want to give this House the impression that the road to development has been easy or even straightforward. We have made many mistakes and failed in a number of areas to do the things we set out to do, but we will learn from them and correct them as we go along. History has taught us that a desperate fear of mistakes results only in stagnation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: It would have been impossible not to do so, because we do not live in a utopia. We have had to come to terms with many competing, but equally important needs of our people everywhere in the face of limited resources.

Madam Speaker, I want to conclude by saying that in the next three years, we shall build on the successes of the work we have done and learn from our mistakes and failures. As the English proverb goes, “Nothing succeeds like success.” I think I can confidently look to a future where we will be able to do more to uplift the living standards of our people.

Our work is not finished because development is not an event; it is a long term process. I invite hon. Members on both sides of the House to join me in committing ourselves to doing what must be done to make the development of our country our collective agenda. I am supremely confident that we shall put our differences aside and work together to achieve our collective mandate; that of consciously doing our very best to serve our Mother Zambia and its people. If we do not do so, history will judge us harshly, and I mean very harshly.

Mr Mubika: It is true!

Mr Mwaanga: We must teach our people that they have the power to transform themselves, over time, into a country where all of them can live in peace, harmony, self respect, dignity and co-operation as they work together for their common benefit. As we move forward, there will always be people and institutions that have a propensity to blind themselves to reality and I am afraid that God has not spared us of our fair share of them.

Laughter

Mr Mwaanga: Some criticise our way of managing national affairs out of ignorance and others out of sheer malice. We know what our mandate is and we know what our mission is. History is a great teacher and those who ignore history become blind to the future.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, we shall work with all those who reject violence and anarchy. We shall work with all those who offer constructive criticism and suggestions aimed at improving our performance. We shall not appreciate those who suffer from a malicious enjoyment of our misfortunes. We shall place our trust in the people of Zambia and we will work tirelessly and honestly for their well being because we know that this is the honest service that our people demand of all of us.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Madam Speaker, the amount of debate that has been stimulated by the stimulus plan which was given by His Excellency the President, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, and also by the stimulus package given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning shows that, as a Government, we have been able to offer the necessary direction this country needs.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, for the first time, both sides of the House have synergy regarding what is supposed to be done in this country.

Madam Speaker, there has been tremendous eloquence in the discussions and I was impressed by the debate of Hon. Kambwili; a sign that we have managed to convince both sides of the House that, as a people and country, we understand our problems and the question is: are we able to solve them?

Madam Speaker, as I debate, I want to get into the adage, ‘what’s in a name’. When we from the Eastern Province give a name, we do not do it from nowhere. ‘Bwezani’, for the sake of my relatives on the other side, means to restore, bring back or simply to add value. This is what Rupiah Bwezani Banda is there to do and …

Mr Chimbaka: Inde!

Ms Cifire: … what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, through the stimulus plan, by Rupiah Bwezani Banda, is giving us.

In my understanding, names like ‘Chilufya’ mean someone who loses things or somebody who is a loser.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, if we talk about vision, a loser can never give us vision.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, we are here to restore this country to what the Zambians would like to see it be.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: You are a stimulus woman!

Laughter

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, looking at the vision and the stimulus package given, I recall that the hon. Member for Lubansenshi lamented that when His Excellency had gone to Northern Province, he was waiting by the roadside for His Excellency the President to visit a site where the contractor had not been for a long time. I would like to say that our vision is to be productive and between the two options of going to see a road and bridge that were not going anywhere and pursuing the resumption of tourism at Kasaba Bay, our productive time was to see infrastructure development that would be offered by the resumption of tourism at Kasaba Bay. I am sure when the hon. Member reflects on that, he will agree with me that that was the best option at the time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, I also want to take a look at – Yes, ba Kasongo sumineni fye.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Will the hon. Deputy Minister speak through the Chair and not ba Kasongo.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, I am happy that Hon. Kasongo is in agreement with me over the vision that we have.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, I was impressed, yesterday, when Hon. Sikota talked about the stimulus package being one of the bold decisions that we have taken as a country and I agree with him.

Another bold decision that we had to take was the cancellation of the 2011 All Africa Games. The choice we had was whether to struggle to try and impress other people or do what was in the best interest of the Zambian people. We decided to do what was in the best interest of the Zambian people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, the fact that the Zambian people have given us this mandate to give them direction, means that we will not let them down. Doing that would mean that we are self-destructive. One of the important words I have learnt in this august House is the Tonga word from Major Chizhyuka, with whom I share a birthday, …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Laughter
Ms Cifire: … ‘Chihunya’. The simple explanation of this word is being self-destructive. An addition to this by Hon. Muntanga was that there is an insect which when it fails to get food, starts eating itself. How it does that, I do not know.

Interruptions

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, we are not in a position to get ourselves into ‘Chihunya’.

Laughter

Ms Cifire: We are here to deliver. The All Africa Games were cancelled so that we could put the money to good use by re-channelling it towards ensuring our youths grow into responsible adults. That has been done and I am sure that that is part of the money which the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has assured this House will be considered to increase CDF.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

___________

The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 17th February, 2009.

 

APPENDIX TO QUESTION NO. 121

FEMALE BENEFICIARIES OF TOURISM DEVELOPMENT FUND

Name of Beneficiary                            District                      Amount            Year of 
                                                                                                                       Disbursement

Natural Mystic Lodge                         Livingstone             K300,000,000            2004
(Kathleen Moya Mukela)

The Wane Guest House                     Livingstone           K250,000,000               2004
(Nkhata Valenta Miyoba
And others)

Decha Guest Lodge                           Livingstone             K120,000,000            2005
(Cheque issued in the
name of Abel Mulopwe 
Mpondela whose partner
 is a woman)

Mayfair Guest House                          Monze                   K150,000,000              2005
(Anastasia Jane Mafonko)

New Monze Hotel                                Monze                   K150,000,000              2005
(Cecilia Mutasa)

Primetime Productions                         Lusaka                  K50,000,000                 2004
(Alick & Gertrude Mugala
& Patrick Musonda)

Comfort Zone Guest                           Lusaka                 K130,720,000                 2004
House & Restaurant 
(Keith & Nancy Pasquini)

Reedmat Lodge                                  Lusaka                 K50,000,000                    2005
(Joyce Banda)

Artcrafts Enterprises Ltd Lusaka K150,000,000 2006
(Cheque issued in the name
 of Rodgers Kazembe
 whose partner is a woman)

Zimbo Enterprises Lusaka K50,000,000 2006
(Victoria Chirwa)

Elitem Travel and Tours Lusaka K300,000,000 2006
(Violet Tembo)

Suwilanji Gardens Lusaka K300,000,000 2006
(Judy Nakamba Mpondela)

Superlye Restaurant Petauke K92,000,000 2004
(Enala N. & Jimmy C
Lubinda)

Tudo Investments Ndola K300,000,000 2005
(Henry Musonda &
Jennifer Musonda)

Cabrite Limited Ndola K145,000,000 2006
(Rosemary Nkanda)

Harmony Lodge Ndola K50,000,000 2006
(Agness Witola
Chimfwembe)

Krat Enterprises Chingola K80,000,000 2005
(Chisupa G. Mulenga
& Luputa K. Stella

Walusungu Guest House Kabwe K250,000,000 2006
(Iredy Zimba)

Lady Essie Lodge Kapiri Mposhi K150,000,000 2006
(Estelly Kalombe)

Tusha Safaris Mpika K150,000,000 2004
(Evans & Elizabeth
Luambia)

Sahel Enterprises Kasama K71,000,000 2004
(Cecilia Lubinda)

Chinchi’s Nest and Guest Kasama K165,000,000 2007
House
(Godfridah Chibwa Mugala)

Travellers Food Café Nchelenge K45,000,000 2007
(Sylvia Mulenga)

Mark Guest House Mansa K44,100,000 2007
(Helen Mwelwa Waine)

Christy’s Inn Mbala K298,880,000 2007
(Grace Namutengu)

Unamono Guest House Solwezi K50,000,000 2005
(Mrs Samapimbi)

New Horizon Restaurant Senanga K50,000,000 2005
& Curio Centre
(Shirley Moonga Liswaniso)

Sioma Campsite Shang’ombo K50,000,000 2004
(Mercy N. Mwanza &
Joe Mwitumwa

Mumasilya Enterprises Mongu K14,340,000 2004
(Lydia N. Kaywala &
Grace Nguleka)

Debora’s Chicken & Mongu K20,000,000 2004
Things Fast Food
Restaurant