Debates- Thursday, 19th February, 2009

DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 19 th February, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

___________________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

RESUMPTION OF CONSTRUCTION WORKS AT MWANDASENGO SUB-POWER STATION

138. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) when the construction work at the sub-power station at Mwandasengo in Kaoma District would resume;
(b) why the contractor engaged in 2006 to complete the works at (a) above abandoned the project;
(c) whether the contractor was paid for the works above and, if so, how much was paid; and
(d) how much, in Zambian Kwacha, was required to complete the above project.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Chibombamilimo): Madam Speaker, the works for Mwandasengo are expected to resume this year, 2009. The contractor engaged suspended the project in 2006 due to non-availability of funds for its completion. The contractor was paid K400 million and the remaining money required to complete the project was K2.1 billion. The contractor was the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO).

Thank you, Madam.

Ms Limata: Madam Speaker, was this a political issue for them not to have completed the exercise which they started in 2006?

Mr Chibombamilimo: Madam Speaker, the project actually started in 2004 and because of the non-availability of funds, it was suspended in 2006. We now have the money and so the project will continue.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, taking advantage of this question, is the hon. Minister in a position to tell the House how far the work on the power station at Kalungwishi has gone?

Madam Deputy Speaker: That is a not related to the question on the Floor of the House.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, is this turning into a habit that just before elections, ZESCO repairs power lines and excites communities in the hope that they are going to have electricity as is the case in kwilamba in Lufwanyama?

Mr Konga stood.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development is very keen to answer.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: However, it is again unrelated. Let us stick to the question on the Order Paper.

Can we go to the next question.

COMPLETION OF BASIC SCHOOLS FUNDED BY MICRO-PROJECTS UNIT IN LUKULU EAST

139. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Education when static basic projects at the following schools which were previously funded under the Micro-Projects Unit, whose construction stalled in 2003 will be completed:

(i) Winana;
(ii) Kamilende; and
(iii) Silonga.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, Winana School was in 2006 allocated K90 million by the Ministry of Education (MoE) for the completion of two staff houses. MoE last year further allocated K22,162,000 for the procurement of building materials to complete the project.

As regards to Kamilende Basic School, an amount of K47,500,000 was allocated to the school for the construction of a 1x3 classroom block under the Poverty Reduction Programme(PRP) in 2006. The school managed to construct it from foundation to slab level and molded a lot of blocks from the first allocation received. MoE will take over the project from PRP and will include the activity in the 2010 budget.

With regard to Silonga Basic School, the school was first funded under the Basic Education Sub-sector Investment Programme (BESSIP) in 2003 with a sum of K60 million for the construction of a 1x3 classroom block, two teachers’ houses and ten VIP latrines. In 2006, the school received an additional K188,441,000 from MoE for the completion of two staff houses and three double VIP latrines. Construction of the classroom block and one staff house was successfully completed in 2007.

Thank you, Madam.

SHORTAGE OF STAFF IN THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH

140. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what the shortfall was in the following categories of officers in the ministry taking into consideration the recommended staff establishment against the current staff levels:

(i) doctors;
(ii) midwives;
(iii) laboratory technicians; and
(iv) paramedics.

(b) which provinces were the most affected by staff shortfalls at (a) above, and why; and
(c) what the current national ratio of doctor-to-patient was.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, regarding the question at (a), the approved structure of the Ministry of Health (MoH) is about 51,000 for all categories of workers. The approved structure for these categories and the current status is as follows:

Approved In Post Shortfall

(a) medical officers 2,142 861 1281

(b) midwives 5,021 2393 2628

(d) paramedics 7329 3090 4239

Total 16235 6776 9459

As regards to question (b), the provinces hardest hit with staff shortages are the Western and North-Western Provinces with only 18 per cent and 27 per cent of the positions filled, respectively. In terms of absolute numbers, the Copperbelt Province followed by the Western Province has the highest number of unfilled vacancies.

Madam Speaker, generally, staff distribution is affected by how rural a province is. It is poorer in predominantly rural areas as compared to urban provinces because of difficulties in persuading workers to go there.

The answer to question (c) is that the common ratio in doctor -to- population is doctor to a population of 100,000 inhabitants. Using the definition of doctor-to-patient ratio, per 100,000 inhabitants of Zambia is 12 per100,000. The World Health Organisation (WHO) Standard is 18-32 per 100,000 inhabitants.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Imenda: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the reason for the imbalance and the extent to which the influx of medical staff to countries in Southern Africa and the United Kingdom has affected the staffing levels in Zambia.

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, it is true that MoH is affected by this attrition of personnel, just like other developing countries, to the western world. We admit that this attrition is there, but that the ministry has put up measures to attract these important people back to serve our health services. In fact, the rate at which the doctors and other medical staff are coming in has been unprecedented. That is the truth.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, has the ministry considered calling the people that retired, particularly those that went on voluntary separation, in the mentioned categories to come back and work?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, yes, we are encouraging all those that retired and still have value and strength to be considered for enlistment on contract basis to come forward.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, with this current scenario where more than 50 per cent of the establishments are not filled, does the Government feel that they will reach the Millennium Development Goal (MDG) on health by 2015?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I know the MDGs are difficult to achieve. However, every country has put up strategies to ensure achievement of the goals by 2015 MoH has also put up strategies to achieve these goals.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I would like to know what measures the Government has put in place to attract medical personnel to rural areas.

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member should have gotten the answer from my initial response. The strongest incentive that the Government has offered is an attractive rural hardship allowance. The other incentives are to improve the working conditions such as, the provision of transport and loans to doctors. We also hope to extend the loan facilities to nurses in order to attract them as well.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, what is MoH doing to ensure that medical workers who are being recalled from retirement and outside the country are put on the pay roll as quickly as possible instead of them applying for advance for years?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, it is true that we had a scenario where some workers where being paid from grants. However, that is being worked on and I am sure if the hon. Member goes back to her constituency she will find a different story. Most of the classified daily employees (CDEs) for instance, which were stopped have been put on payroll and have gone back to their clinics.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, doctors are sent to areas where infrastructure like hospitals are available. What is the ministry doing about areas like Mwense where there are no hospitals and not even a single doctor?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, MoH is on a mission to build hospitals in all the districts where there are no district hospitals.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Akakandelwa: Secondly, we are upgrading in some instances. For example, maternity wards are being annexed to various hospital establishments.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Madam Speaker, Lundazi District Hospital caters for so many rural health centres. Unfortunately, the hospital only has one doctor, who is also involved in administration to an extent that no operations ever take place. When does this ministry intend to send another doctor to Lundazi bearing in mind the incentives which you have put in place, if at all they are working?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, the recruitment drive by the ministry is ongoing and the hospitals that are in deficit of certain cadre of personnel will be considered.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, with the current doctor -patient ratio, how does the Government expect an improved primary health care? When does the Government expect to achieve the acceptable doctor-patient ratio because some of the items on the retention scheme like loan facilities have been discontinued?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, it is very clear that the hon. Member was not paying attention.

Hon. Kambwili: He was.

Mr Akakandelwa: I was talking about loans having been distributed. It would be helpful if Hon. Kambwili …

Interruptions

Mr Akakandelwa: … could shut up.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Uleyasuka fye iwe. [You just answer]

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, incentives like loans have been put in place.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister if he is aware that the 50 per cent establishment level that currently exists among our medical personnel has frustrated and stressed those that have been so perseverant and diligent to the cause of the people of this country? This is evidenced by the level of people who take their sick to hospitals and end up providing primary health care such as cleaning patients each time the worst happens to them. Can the hon. Minister tell us when they will put a clear cut policy that when you take a patient to the hospital, you will be responsible for cleaning them when they mess up?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, such health care is dependant on the number of staff available in a particular institution. I have already stated that a recruitment drive is on course and as soon as we reach the optimum numbers, I am sure that such concerns will be addressed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

LUAMPA MISSION HOSPITAL

141. Ms Limata asked the Minister of Health when the ministry would provide the following items to the Luampa Mission Hospital:

(a) beds and mattresses;

(b) blankets; and

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, the practice is that once a new health facility is constructed, the initial needs of the facility including beds, mattresses, blankets and kitchen utensils are procured centrally.

However, the ministry has in the past indicated and informed this august House that all districts and hospitals across the country are normally given operational grants that are used for the running of health facilities. There is a provision within the operational grant for the districts and hospitals to replace worn out blankets and mattresses, broken down kitchen utensils and many other items through the same grant which is normally released on a monthly basis to all institutions.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if at all he has taken a conducted tour of hospitals and seen the type of linen, blankets in particular, found there. If, indeed, he has, was he satisfied with what he saw?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I can confirm that the hon. Minister of Health, who is not in the House now, Hon. Kapembwa Simbao and I undertook a mission to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). Some members of the press accompanied us as we visited all the wards. However, speaking for myself as the question has been directed to me, I would like to say, yes, what I saw at the UTH was satisfactory.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Mr Akakandelwa: In fact, our entourage comprised members from the Civil Society which included Non-Governmental Organisation Co-ordinating Committee (NGOCC) who were also satisfied. You may have to ask them yourselves if you like.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Luampa was when the listed items would be provided. From the answer that the hon. Deputy Minister of Health has given, there is no timeframe that has been indicated. Will the hon. Deputy Minister come out clearly, other than hiding in grants, and state when these items will be provided?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, I will try to tone down my voice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Akakandelwa: Yes!

We have stated that the money that we send monthly to these institutions includes provisions for them to replace worn out items such as the ones in question. I am not sure whether Luampa Hospital has all beds, mattresses, blankets and kitchen utensils torn and dilapidated. What was happening? This is not true …

Interruptions

Mr Akakandelwa: Listen!

… unless she is asking for replacements, yes, which is the reason why we give them grants. It is not true that everything can be damaged at the same time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, unless there was vandalism sponsored by the party.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, in response to Hon. Kambwili’s question …

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: … the hon. Deputy Minister stated that he and his hon. Minister toured UTH and found that beddings were in a satisfactory state. However, the question is, does he know the state of the linen in other hospitals, particularly in rural health centres, since we know that UHT usually gets to be better supplied than the rural health centres?”

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Madam Speaker, …

Dr Katema: Mwafweniko.[Help him]

Mr C. Mulenga: Mwachiba kwisa![Where were you?]

Mr Simbao: … I thank the hon. Member for Luapula for that concern. Yes, we have a problem with linen …

Mr Kambwili: Yes!

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Wait a minute.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: We have a problem with linen especially in some of our rural settings.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: We must be very fair. When we say please, come and see, please, do just that. I made an appeal to hon. Members to accompany me to Medical Stores Limited (MSL), but no one came.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Simbao: Yes, no one came.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: Please, if you were not in the House, I stood here and made an invitation. By the way, there was a bus …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister speak through Chair.

Mr Mukanga: We want allowances.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, we have problems with linen especially in some rural settings. UTH is very near and hon. Members of Parliament are free to go there. Now, if when I visited UTH, the linen they put there was brand new in all the wards, then let it be because that was very good. I know we are still trying to supply linen in hospitals in some provinces. I can confirm that we have problems with linen, but it is not everywhere. The linen in certain hospitals like UHT is very good.

BENEFICIARIES OF THE FERTILISER SUPPORT PROGRAMME IN LUAMPA

142. Ms Limata asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how many people in Luampa Parliamentary Constituency benefited from the Fertiliser Support Programme during the 2008/2009 farming season.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Madam Speaker, the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) has not devolved to include fertiliser allocations per parliamentary constituency. FSP allocates agricultural input to provinces and districts through registered Co-operative Societies and District Farmers’ Associations (affiliated to Zambia National Farmers Union).

Madam, in this case, 3,348 people in Kaoma District, in which Luampa Parliamentary Constituency falls benefited from the FSP during the period 2008/2009 farming season.

Madam Speaker, out of the 3,348 beneficiaries in Kaoma District, it is estimated that 245 people belonging to six co-operative societies benefited in Luampa Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 2009 TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2009

VOTE 01 – (Office of the President – State House – K22,837,798,494).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this rare opportunity to present to this august House the 2009 Estimates of Recurrent and Capital Expenditure for Head 01/01 – Office of the President – State House.

Mr Chairperson, the policy objectives and the role of the State House are summed up in the following mission statement:

“To provide visionary and effective economic, social and political leadership to the nation in line with the constitution in order to facilitate sustainable development, promote peace, stability, rule of law and democratic governance”.

Mr Chairperson, in support of this mission statement and to give it specific focus and direction to its operations, the institution has set for itself the following goal:

“To effectively guide the operations of Government, promote unity, attain economic growth and reduce corruption and poverty in the country”.

Overview of the 2008 Operations

Mr Chairperson, State House has continued to register significant developments in its operations arising from macro-economic achievements that Zambia has attained as a result of the sound economic policies by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, State House has continued to provide quality leadership and direction to the nation…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: …and enabled us to effectively and efficiently implement Government programmes across ministerial and agency lines as it responded to critical challenges and opportunities of national importance and priority.

Budget for 2009

Mr Chairperson, State House is pleased to present its 2009 Budget Estimates to enable it successfully carry out its functions and meet the expectations of the nation. This Budget is in line with the National Budget theme of, “Enhancing Growth through Competitiveness and Diversification”.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We do not seem to be listening.

Can you continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Sir, the functions and the expectations of State House are operationalised through three key departments, namely, the Presidential Secretariat, Advisory Services and Human Resource and Administration.

Sir, Hon. Members may wish to know that State House requires this Budget in order to carry out its mandate which has been provided for in this year’s Budget. This includes personal emoluments, maintenance and servicing of VIP and operational fleet and maintenance of State House buildings.

Mr Chairperson, it is my considered view that sufficient funds will be allocated for the operations of State House in order for the above operations of State House to be effectively implemented for His Excellency the President to work in a conducive atmosphere.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to make a strong appeal to this august House to support our 2009 Estimates of Recurrent and Capital Expenditure.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important vote.

Sir, I would like to begin by saying that State House is a public and not a private institution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: In other words, the President should be seen to open the doors of State House to each and every individual, regardless of that person’s political affiliation. That is the only way whoever is going to be principal at State House can succeed. If the President is going to be surrounded by advisors who come from the same ruling party, I can assure you that such a President will be there for only five or even two years.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Sir, the President should be a good listener. He should be able to receive letters even from an ordinary person. If he is going to be advised by the people that surround him and those who tell him what he wants to hear only, then he cannot better his leadership skills.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: The President is supposed to entertain each and every person in our country. That is the only way he can succeed.

Mr Chairperson, secondly, …

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. However, let me just advise that we have a lot of work ahead of us. If we have to move diligently and carefully, we must minimise our points of order. I am not directing this to the person who has raised the point of order, but making a general statement.

Hon. Member, can you raise your point of order.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member debating on the Floor of this House in order to say that the President should open the doors for everyone, including those with helmets and gumboots from Roan Constituency?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The President will obviously see those he is able to see. The hon. Member may continue.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I think that we should be able to make a distinction between a party president and a republican president.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: A republican president is the president of the Republic of Zambia. In this case, all the people of Zambia should be embraced by the republican president.

Secondly, the President must be able to put in place a system of evaluating the performance of the political appointees. The President performs his functions through other people. Therefore, if he does not put a system in place to evaluate the performance of his hon. Cabinet Ministers, hon. deputy ministers, permanent secretaries and district commissioners, no matter how brilliant his programme or vision may be, it will not be achieved. This is because he will be surrounded by a number of passengers and a lot of liabilities instead of assets.

Mr Kambwili: Tetamashimba!

Mr Kasongo: There must be a system to evaluate the performance of hon. Ministers and other political appointees. That is the only way …

Hon. Opposition Member: Dora!

Mr Kasongo: …the President can achieve his goal.

Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members of this august House, we evaluate ourselves. Our colleagues on your right are at liberty to evaluate us and vice-verse. We have openly congratulated hon. Ministers in this House who have performed well. We have always said, “Well done.” I personally have come out in the open to cite hon. Ministers who have been practical and impressive. When we stand up to praise the hon. Minster of Education, Professor Lungwangwa, we unanimously acknowledge that he is practical and result orientated.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, these are the kind of hon. Ministers we value. If you go to our constituencies, you will see the impact of his leadership.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Hon. Chituwo, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, is a person I have always singled out as a performer as well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kasongo: When he was hon. Minister of Heath, I put it in writing that Bangweulu Constituency in Samfya District did not have a district hospital. He said he would deliver. As I am speaking to you now, because of his effort and I do not want to embarrass him, the hospital is under construction. Let us give credit to those who deserve it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We are however disappointed by some of the hon. Cabinet Ministers with regard to the answers they provide to this august House.

Hon. Opposition Member: Konga!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, hon. Ministers should be cautious of the fact that they are there to represent the people of Zambia. The language they use in this House may be twisted to mean something else out there just because they are in leadership. On our part, if I became careless with my language, nobody would take it seriously. This is my timely advice to my colleagues who are privileged to serve as hon. Cabinet Ministers, not all of us aspire to be in that position.

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that when I was the only independent Member of Parliament, I was advised to join the Cabinet, but I turned down the offer because I was comfortable as a Member of Parliament. I can further single out a lot of people who are performers. Sir, V J, who is seated there is a person who …

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Sorry, Hon. Mwaanga Vernon …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kasongo, I think that you made your point when you said that the President should appoint people who can perform. However, I am getting worried because you are beginning to single out individuals. Can you address the principal.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Sir, earlier I talked about the President operating through his political appointees. We expect our colleagues to be result orientated and that he should able to evaluate their performance. That was my point.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise our President at State House that those who are privileged to serve him as advisers should do so wisely. The many people who operate under his office at State House should be seen to give him credible advice. They should also allow Zambians to access State House. That way, the President will be able to get information from different sources. Apart from that, it is also important for me to advise the current President that the First lady is just like a house wife.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: While the First lady should be given opportunity to attend to ceremonial functions, we would not like to see a situation that we have experienced in the past where speeches for a First Lady were read on her behalf by Cabinet Ministers.

Hon. Member: Which First lady?

Mr Kasongo: A First lady has no executive powers.

Hon. Member: Yes!

Mr Kasongo: That must be understood correctly. The moment you allow the First lady to exercise executive powers then we have a danger of undermining the powers of Cabinet Ministers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kasongo: You give ammunition to the First lady to undermine …

Mr Kambwili interrupted.

Mr Kasongo: …the powers of permanent secretaries. The First lady must understand that she is there to preside over ceremonial functions and not advise hon. Ministers to read speeches on her behalf. This used to happen in the past. I am advising the current President to ensure that such a thing does not happen again.

Hon UPND Member: Ever!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, we have always been open about the fact that for a president to be respected 100 per cent by all Zambians, the 50 per cent plus one vote should be non-negotiable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We must elect a person who is popular to the extent that even when he is at State House, he must be able to walk with pomp and integrity. This is what we are trying to achieve. There is no way we will sacrifice that part of leadership to a minority president, come 2011. Those who will be there should ensure that all future presidents are elected by popular vote.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Our 50 per cent plus one vote is non-negotiable. We have to be more focused.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Bwekeshenipo![Repeat that]

Mr Kasongo: Let us take a leaf from countries like Ghana. When a person is elected and appears for inauguration, he walks with pomp and integrity because he is supported by each and every person. I would, therefore, like to advise those of us who belong to different political parties to campaign for our selected presidential candidates now, in readiness for the 2011 general elections.

In 2011, we want to produce a President who is going to attract a 50 + 1 per cent vote. That is non-negotiable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, my last contribution is that leadership means being humble, a servant of the people, and not the way my hon. Colleague put it. I do not know whether it was a slip of the tongue when the Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security said, “We are masters of the people”. It is supposed to be the other way round. Therefore, I take it that it was a slip of the tongue. If he was an easterner, I was not going to pardon him.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Therefore, my appeal to those of us who are privileged to be leaders is to show strong leadership. Since I have been advised, I do not want to single out a number of them who have demonstrated strong leadership. However, they are there. Only yesterday, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning demonstrated to us that he was one of them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: When we spoke about the need to increase Constituency Development Fund (CDF), he listened and he agreed that the argument would stand. We would like to commend him through the Head of State including those who put their heads together to listen to our voices. Not only that, when I went to his office to talk about the CDF for last year, he told me that he had given instructions to his managers to release it. I got the message on Christmas day that my CDF for last year had gone to my constituency. That is the leadership we want to see. We will continue supporting you. However, you do not expect us to support you when you come here and rise to say, “If you cannot develop your constituency by using CDF, I am sorry for you.”

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I can assure you that you ought to have that political will power to lead us. We will continue supporting the leadership of the day for as long as they accept the fact that they are there to establish themselves and make sure that we create an alliance where we will be looked at as one.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Strong leadership is key because we do not want to see a lot of passengers.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you, so much.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you very much for this opportunity to debate on the vote for State House.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I did not wish to disturb your deliberations, but I stand on a very serious point of order.

Mr Chairperson, we have been guided before in this House, especially when we came in as new hon. Members of Parliament, on what is expected of us during sittings in this House. A seminar was even conducted to enhance our understanding.

Mr Chairperson, on 17th February, 2009, the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan protested and went to State House. In his protest amongst all that he said I will quote the following:

‘The law does not require me to get a permit. You only have to notify the police.’

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: The hon. Member of Parliament, on a number of times, has debated in this House and I am sure he has been heard. He is now taking the Business of the House out there. In addition, we were guided out of the many other regulations that an hon. Member of Parliament is not supposed to go on hunger strike or protest…

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: … Is it in order for a legislator to go out there and behave in the manner in which the hon. Member did? Currently, the people out there are losing confidence in this House ….

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sichilima: …following the behaviour of some of our hon. Members, such as the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, I think you do recall when I guided that the points of order must relate to matters of procedure and decorum in the House. As important as the point of order maybe, it does not relate to any of the issues on the Floor. Therefore, I will not accept that point of order.

May the hon. Member for Pemba continue.

Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I fundamentally believe in the principle of separation of powers. The separation of powers which are the Executive, Legislature and the Judiciary must equally share the national cake and be able to deliver services to the people in those three major centres of Government.

Mr Chairperson, I have gone through the respective budget in as far as State House, where the Executive and Cabinet Office is anchored, is concerned. I have also looked at the Judiciary and Manda Hill. The differences in figures are all around k2.1 to k2.3 billion. They are relative like the hon. Minister and the Permanent Secretary are twins. That is a complement to you hon. Minister. Nevertheless, we are talking about the budget therefore, the overuse of English words should be lessened and figures be increased.

Hon. Position Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, Having stated that, I want to say that at State House at K2.1 billion as replicated to the Judiciary and Parliament and I go further by saying that when it comes to the compost expenditure of the Executive it is at 32.1 per cent. When we talk of development and putting our money where out mouths are, I will keep saying that it is at 3 per cent. This means that ministries like the ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives is included.

Mr Chairperson, as much as I have no problems with these figures which I consider marginal and smaller than some of the Chief Executives of Parastatal and private companies in this country, I have a problem with the tilt toward greater expenditure at lower than State House of 32 per cent. I think we should look at those figures in a more congenial and objective manner. You cannot tell me that ministries are performing better than the Presidency and security agencies. I know that the Commander in Chief is the President who could be provided with more funding than State House. I am not advocating for more money for the conspicuous consumption of the President, but I am saying that he spends more. It could be on gallivanting or anything else that your imagination can want to come up with.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Nonetheless, he is the President because you gave him the power. Therefore, do not blame me. I am only talking about the figures.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I also want to state that in order for the Presidency to earn an endearing inspiration, it must be a centre of management and control.

Mr Muyanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: The presidency must be inspiring. The president does not have to rescue anybody regardless of whether they are in the opposition, Government or elsewhere, but he must be there to ensure that we are all well fed. That is the language you understand.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: The presidency must equitably distribute inspiration, control, management and direction. The question is, are we on that course? Through you, Mr Chairperson, I pose this question to our friends on the other side: what is the feeling of the ordinary Zambian about their President? First and foremost, whether they like it or not, he is the President of the country. Secondly, they want a President that delivers and thirdly, they want the woman or man in that office – but, for this time, the man – to inspire them. I hope next time the President will be female because I am very gender sensitive. When the people say they are hungry and the President says, “No, the Minister for the Province says you are alright.” and when the people of Sichifulo complain and he keeps quiet,

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: they lose confidence because they want a president who intervenes. When all other pressures of national interest are not well explained, the President must come and say, “I am waiting for investigations to be carried out.”

I have known the President since 1967. He has very close friends such as Hon. Mwaanga who has lived the test of time to the point of over living it.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: VJ!

Mr Matongo: He knows I mean well. You are there to sit down your friend and say, …

Mr Matongo was banging on the table.

Mr Matongo: … “Let us go back to the roots where we started from.” I always give fair criticism.

Mr Muyanda: Dora!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I have been around for a while. I am aware of a President who was under pressure from a certain very competent hon. Minister of Home of Affairs. This president used to play golf with him. This however has nothing to do with any current situation.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Nothing at all! After playing golf, as he was leaving, this man picked a letter. Hon. Mwaanga can describe the letters from KK. The envelopes were blue, yellow or pink. Depending on which colour you received, you knew what was contained. I do not know how the system is now.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: However, I always rely on my elder brother and that is the only reason I want him here a little longer …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … so that he can help us through some of the difficult situations we are facing. Believe you me, the man picked a pink envelope and he was …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: What did Patel use to say?

Mr Muyanda: The advert!

Mr Matongo: No, you do not know. I think I will leave that, Mr Chairperson. The point I am making is that presidents want performers because the credit goes to them. I want the current President to look at the following:

We cannot have a Kwacha-dollar rate of K5,700. He must intervene.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Matongo: We cannot have high interest rates in the banks when they are expanding their belts. As a result of the high interest rates, we cannot borrow money to do business. He has to intervene and he does not have to be an economist to do so. All he can say is, “Governor and hon. Minister, this is not right. Go and do it right.” After all, to be a leader, you have to dictate benevolently. He cannot sit back and allow Zambians to starve or be denied homes. I wish to appeal to Cabinet to tell the President the correct thing or else we shall start going to him. The Hon. Mr Speaker can arrange meetings for us. We do not want to overrun your ministries.

Mr Chairperson, the President should ensure development in the economy. Money must be put into construction to create jobs and repair roads, schools and all Government institutions, including Parliament. Money must be spent well.

Mr Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Deputy Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training who said every province has a trade school. We have trained artisans and technicians. Let them form companies. There is enough business and work for them in their respective areas instead of coming to Lusaka cape in hand and on bended knees to look for jobs.

Mr Matongo banged on the table.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: The President should look into that.

The President should not be deceived that we can pour a lot of money in areas other than towards the women and the youth. Wherever the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development is? Oh! they are around.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: The money must go to the youth. The issue of the youth is a time bomb that you are sitting on.

Mrs Musokotwane: And women.

Mr Matongo: The money must go to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services for the women …

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: … that are toiling and suffering.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I reject the idea that money for business must go through the Citizens Economic Empowerment system.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: That is a route to corruption which we have seen before.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Sir, I would like to state that money must go where our mouths are and where reality exists.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: You will agree with me that it is the women and children that are suffering today. If you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, let me tell you that this Government has removed it from your mouth unless they listen to the call to reinvest where your grandparents came from; in the rural areas and agriculture.

Therefore, hon. Minister, you are right to put money into cattle development, fisheries, and agriculture. Put money in mining, but ensure that the mining companies pay their taxes. There is no need to remove windfall tax. If ever I am going to read the Riot Act for the first time in eight years in this Parliament, it will be the day the hon. Minister comes to this House to try and scrap windfall tax. I have no problem with you suspending it. If I fail to read the Riot Act on that day, then do not force me to evoke the Mapatizya formula.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, advise properly and do not bring in the Mapatizya formula.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: The Mapatizya formula means a peaceful resolution …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … of contentious issues in case some people are thinking of something else. It was written by the late Mazoka.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: For those who think differently, I have explained what it means.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Let us work in this direction.

Sir, I will be very controversial in making sure that Pay as You Earn (PAYE) is lowered. There is no way you are going to keep the public servants in captivity by increasing PAYE because you are not investing enough to produce while those morons, the big banks are sitting on money. Although we borrow from them, we need to provide collateral. The banks must be able to release the money that has been placed on the market for the ordinary people to access. This is a simple demand and simple economics. The Government releases money to the banks from bonds, treasury bills and reserves, but where does it go other than flying to Johannesburg every Thursday?

Finally, Mr Chairperson, I want to say that the President, and I am supporting this vote without reservation, is going to inspire, manage, control and reduce his fiscal expenditure on none productive public servants in order for that money to go to the productive civil servants.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr L J Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairman, Hon. Sichilima do not invite quarrels, you should be careful.

Laughter

Mr L J Ngoma: Mr Chairman, I totally support the Vote on the floor that we should, indeed, fund State House because world over state houses are held in high esteem and are a source of joy and pride to their respective citizens . As such, only people who do not look at issues properly would seriously raise concerns or brush aside issues to do with money at State House.

Mr Chairman, much as I fully support this Vote, I want to raise concerns on the surroundings of State House. All you need to do right now is take a drive around the premises and you will be amazed. In a situation where we are supporting the keep-Zambia- clean campaign and are busy talking about cleanliness in this country it is unfortunate that it is not obtaining at State House. I wonder where the landscapers and the people in the horticultural department are there.

Mr Chairman, a lot of money is provided year in year out for the maintenance of State House. Here, I would like to state that reference to maintenance is not just made to the inside of the premises but also to the litter that is around which is a big shame. So, I urge the hon. Minister of Works and Supply or whoever is in charge at State House to take this issue seriously so that this timely warning is addressed.

Mr Chairman, there are times when we receive visitors and we would like to take them around because we feel it is part of tourism. However, how does one take visitors to State House where the visitors will see litter?

Mr Chairman, my other concern is on the huge amount of money budgeted for rehabilitation every year. This year K420 million has been allocated and it will keep increasing in the coming years and so my suggestion is that it is time we considered building a better State House. I am also worried about the security of the Head of State because the Second President, Dr Chiluba went in the open to disclose the tunnels and invited everybody to go and see. It became a tourist attraction. Such a thing should not have been allowed to happen and the continuation of the New Deal Government has just kept quiet about it.

Mr Chairman, every Jim and Jack in this country knows that there are tunnels at State House. That is wrong because the security of the Head of State is at risk and is severely comprised and that is the reason I suggest that we consider building another one in future. You must not pretend that things are okay. Just because the Zamtrop account was laid bare, you cannot leave the issue of security tunnels which were exposed to go unattended. This is serious advice to my colleagues in cabinet.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: Before I give the Floor to Hon. Mrs Musokotwane, I would like to advise that all hon. Members are capable of contributing to the debate briefly. The fact that everyone is allotted fifteen minutes does not mean that you should utilise all of it. I give credit to Hon. L J Ngoma for being brief.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairman, I am also going to be very brief because I only want to discuss one issue and this is on the Ministry of Gender and Women in Development.

Mr Chairman, this ministry was created in 2005. When we asked why it was not a ministry, we were told that because it was created at the end of the year and as such, it was not budgeted for. However, this was in 2005 and now it is 2009, four years in between have passed and this ministry is still not a full one. When are we going to make it a full ministry? We might as well abandon it, but as women we need it.

Mr Chairman, legislation must be brought in this House before this year ends so that next year, this ministry can have a budget. We expect the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development and her colleagues to monitor and co-ordinate projects. Nevertheless, whose projects is she going to co-ordinate and monitor and are the owners going to allow her when she has not implemented them?

The Deputy Chairman: Order! It is a very important point you are making, but unfortunately there is a head under which we can discuss it. You can continue to debate if you have a point on Head 1 – State House.

Mrs Musokotwane: I have none, but I hope the Chairman will give me time when the relevant vote comes.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairman, I saved myself from the debate because I was in the Extended Estimates Committee.

Mr Chairman, I have very few but important points to raise. As you are aware, the Kwacha is sliding as of now. What then is this Government doing in terms of strengthening the image of the new presidency? The factors that affect a slide in value of your currency are several, which include your management style, and the international image of the President. You have given State House just over K22 billion as opposed to last year’s allocation. You have increased it by K2 billion assuming that he is going to spend more than the previous president. Why do you encourage him to spend more money? I thought you would direct more money to other programmes because this is a difficult year. Why has this hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning together with Government decided that this new President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda needs an extra K2 billion?

I thought State House would be cutting their jackets …

Mr Hamududu: Yes.

Mr Hachipuka: … like everybody else. Why do you think the kwacha is sliding? I am hoping that as of now, what will be your thrust is to protect the presidency and integrity of the Government. If you do that, you will see your currency stabilising. What are you doing to stop it? It was only the other day when we were buying the dollar at under K5,000 and now it is hitting K6,000. It is not just because you do not have enough dollars, there are many factors.

Mr Chairperson, I want to re-echo that issue. One, the Government must create a management style that will give confidence to the Zambians, financial houses and the international community. So, it must start from State House. If you look at this budget, I was going to congratulate you through the Chair because your total numbers are less than last year’s. Where I have a quarrel with this budget are the individual numbers. Whilst broader spectrum of things is that you are spending money in areas that will give the country a better impact. Please, if in your house you cannot be seen to cut on your alcohol, if you drink …

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: … so that the children can have a chicken or an egg a day, then, why would you expect everybody to suffer? Really, I have a quarrel with that. So, you should set the pace.

I will come back through the Chair later on to deal with individual departments to show you clearly where you should not have increased. You may think there are small monies, but they build the image of your Government. We cannot sit here as part of you, watching you start the presidency with an increased amount thinking that all is well. If you do not President Banda will think all is well. I hope that you are not the type, who just goes there to advise him that all is well. Things are not well and it must start from the house at State House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, I have no quarrel with the increase of K2 billion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: My major concern is the prudence to which national wealth is being used and accounted for. I want to state that I believe that the presidency as an institution should be a source of inspiration, direction, wisdom and must be firm in dealing with those that are found wanting on the way. I believe Zambia must emulate the United States of America (USA). I believe Members of the Executive must emulate Hilary Clinton. She is going to the world to sell the pitch of America. The people of USA are proud because the presidency and Executive are doing the right thing by convincing Americans to support them. I do not doubt their calibre.

Mr Chairperson, therefore, Zambians now are looking forward to seeing the institution of the presidency and executive which is going to be very impartial, practical, dependable and indispensable and must be seen to realise their vision. Once we begin to do that, the people of Zambia are going to rally behind us. It is not the amount of money or education somebody has attained that matters. What matters here is transformation of the policy and budget into practical activities that will benefit the Zambian out there.

Mr Chairperson, a person shall not be respected by the amount of wealth he/she amasses, but shall be respected by what he/she does for the people that are suffering. I believe that Zambia requires a selfless leader. We have seen so many leaders in this world, but this time around, we want leadership that must stand out and prove to the nation that really there is governanance in this nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the vote on the Floor of the House. I rise to support the vote on the House and also to add just a few observations that I felt would help the executive consider the House or the institution that is housed in State House.

Sir, I want to say first of all, that the House called State House is indeed a house for the State and consequently, every citizen of this country has pride in seeing it look neat, clean and elegant. If possible, one would want to see that every head of State, who passes through that house, leaves some memory of himself and his time in the office and ensure that it becomes part of the institution. We do not want a situation where twenty years down the line we will not be able to recall how many presidents would have been in the office. There is nothing to remind us of past presidents even when we walk into State House. It is very critical that we begin a culture of keeping our history records within there. It is also unfortunate that, you see beauty on one side of State House and the beasts on the Los Angeles Boulevard, but that is not my main point. The point is that in State House lives the person who is the head of our country. As far as the people of this country are concerned, he is the embodiment of the people’s aspirations, dreams and idea of development.

Consequently, Sir, the State House houses our common will and common vision. So, it is crucial to keep that testimony going in that the appointments made, and we are not allowed to criticise so I am very cautious of that, must reflect critically on the Head of State himself. Therefore, my appeal is that he makes those crucial appointments for the good of the country.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mwansa, you hit the nail on the head. So, let us not be seen to be questioning the appointments the Head of State makes.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mwansa: Sir, I am not questioning the appointments of the President. The point that I want to make is that the Head of State came to this House and offered an olive branch of fellowship to all, including the Opposition parties. Consequently, what we expect from the appointed individuals is the expression in real and practical terms of that offer of fellowship. We would like to see the desire to create by-partisan understanding of issues so that the Presidential decree is actually put into practice.

Sir, it is unfortunate that most of the time when I listen to comments coming from my colleagues on your right, I can tell that their minds are always preoccupied with our political differences. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the hon. Ministers to emulate the words of the President so that they understand that different opinions help the country grow. They should also understand that criticism is not meant to harm but advise them. The President meant well when he said that it was necessary for all of us to work towards the development of our country. We cannot do that if we do not begin to see each other as agents of development of our country.

Sir, this means that the major burden to achieving such an ideal scenario lies with the Executive. Hon. Government Members are the pace setters and the people appointed by the Head of State to put into practice his view and vision for the country and this House. If that is not seen in them, we will worry about whether or not the President’s vision of a by-partisan Parliament, when need arises, is going to become a reality.

Sir, I have noticed that the budget for State House interestingly includes Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 3 ─ Institutional Budget Preparations ─ K150,000,000. That sounds a little strange and worrying to me. Surely, when one looks at the activities under the budget for State House, can we spend K150 million just to prepare that?

Mr Syakalima: A 2 page budget.

Mr Mwansa: Sir, a budget of 2 pages costs us K150 million to prepare. I think this speaks volumes about how seriously we look at our country and its development.

Interjections

Mr Mwansa: I am not saying that there should be no preparations but I am wondering whether it should cost us K150 million. If this money has to be used at State House, I think it is better to give it the right description because I do not believe that we can spend that amount of money to prepare a 2 page budget. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Members of the Executive that we can only believe in the seriousness of this institution by what they do, say and how the Budget is presented to us.

Sir, I thank you very much.

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the President (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to supporting the estimates of expenditure at State House. From the onset, I wish to state that State House is the working place and residence for the Head of State and as such, deserves dignity. I agree with hon. Members who have talked about the maintenance of the surroundings of State House and I just want to assure the House that there will be a difference this year.

Mr Chairperson, going by the statement given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning yesterday when he was winding up debate on his Motion, there is absolute need to heed his words. For instance, he had said that the budget line for Harvard University is by far more than the national Budget for Zambia. In this respect, I do not know what fraction of the Harvard University budget the budget of State House is. However, because of our meager resources, we are going to work within the available means. As Zambians, we need to respect institutions like State House because they are our own.

Hon. Members of the Opposition interjected.

Mr Namulambe: State House doors are open to everyone.

Mr Kambwili: Aah! Mwalinkanina ine. [You did not grant me permission to enter the premises].

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Of course, there is need to come under prior arrangements. Every now and then we have invited people for several functions at State House but some opt to boycott. However, that does not mean that they are not welcome. Even now, well meaning Zambians will have the doors opened to them, provided they give prior notice.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I want to warn the people that have encroached on State Lodge Farm. The boundaries of State Lodge Farm are very clear and we intend to do a lot at that farm to demonstrate agricultural activities.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Namulambe: So, we shall ensure that we move those that have encroached on that farm out from there …

Mr Syakalima: Again?

Mr Namulambe: … and no person should start politicking this issue.

Mr Chairperson, the sentiments that were raised by some hon. Members, especially Hon. Kasongo, are vital. The current Head of State is a person who is very humble and is ready to embrace everyone.

Interjections

Mr Namulambe: Whether people like it or not, he is the President and they should give him the respect befitting a Head of State.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: If some people have hopes of being President one day and expect to be respected, they should lead by example by giving respect to the person currently in State House so that they get similar treatment when their time comes.

As regards to the evaluation of performance of the Presidential appointees, let me say that there are systems in place and after this Budget is approved, we are determined to ensure that performance is excellent in all sectors. Regarding the concern over delegation to read speeches, I am not aware of a time when the First Lady has delegated an hon. Minister to read a speech on her behalf. She has always been officiating at functions and will continue doing so. If there comes a time that she is very busy but has to officiate at an event, that engagement would have to be cancelled so as to allow her to go and do it at an appropriate time.

The President is indeed a person who should give inspiration to the country and he has done so. In his speech to Parliament, he gave inspiration to almost everyone. It is only people that have natural hatred that think he is not inspiring the nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Even at school, a pupil that hates a certain teacher is bound to fail their subject because of personal hatred against them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: So, if you are to see the fruits of the President, I want to urge all those that feel that the President is not inspiring to start loving him.

Mr Chairman, there was a concern by Hon. Hachipuka on the increase by K2 billion. This figure is accumulative, if you look at the individual votes and activities, some of it is related to salaries, repairs and personal emoluments. Therefore, it is not a figure that has been thrown to State House as an entity on its own for a new activity, but it is for those activities that have been in existence. It is not a frightening figure and you are aware that the prices of goods and services are rising. This is not only in Zambia; therefore, you expect such a slight increase in the budget for State House.

Hon. Chimbaka talked about the President being a selfless leader. It is true that His Excellency Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda is such a selfless leader. In fact, today is his birth day …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Namulambe: … if you look at the way we have started on the discussions, he has been a selfless leader despite the insults that he receives. He still embraces almost everyone.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: As a nation, we must offer criticism, but it must be constructive. Furthermore, he is ready to receive advice from all well-meaning Zambians, those who would want to work for the betterment of all the Zambian people. If people expect and have got hope that at one time they are going to be Presidents, then they should learn to give honour and respect to him.

Mr Chairman, I am sure that all the hon. Members who are in here are very much anxious to see that their Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is approved and increased. With such small amounts like the K22 billion under State House, all of them are going to support it overwhelmingly so as to move fast for the CDF to be approved.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to this very interesting debate. In as much as I agree and support the vote that has been given to State House, I wish to once again re-emphasise my opinion that I have been expressing in this House that the presidency is for all Zambians, and that in Zambia there should be an equitable distribution of resources.

Mr Chairman, I have bemoaned before on the Floor of this House that at the moment, the resources in the country are not being equitably distributed. Even as we give this money to State House, I wish to state just like what the President said in his statement that he should be the President for all Zambians and not just for MMD or ruling party. In this respect, I wish to encourage my colleagues, the ministers and the executive that in ensuring that this presidency, in fact, this money is from tax payers’ money which means that all Zambians have contributed to the well-being of State House. As such, all Zambians should have access.

Therefore, activities like holding the National Executive Committee (NEC) meetings of the MMD at State House should be discouraged.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Unless, in the same vein, they should allow the NEC of UPND and PF to also hold meetings at State House.

Interruptions

Hon. Independent Member: And Independents!

Mr Simuusa: And Independents if they have NECs.

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: In this way, it will indeed show that our colleagues are genuine and sincere in their words that State House is for all Zambians.

Secondly, as much as we have been requested by the executive as the previous speaker alluded to, to have respect for the current Head of State, which is very commendable…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, before business was suspended I was on a point of respect, which the hon. Minister in the President’s Office requested us to accord the current Head of State.

Mr Chairman, this is very acceptable and honourable. We ought to respect the Head of State because he is the President of all Zambians including us in the Opposition and he should behave as such. However, I want to believe that this process should be extended on both sides. In as much as we in Opposition are being requested to respect the Head of State, I believe the colleagues on your right should also respect the presidents in the Opposition parties.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, we know what your people on your right think of the President and I had wished to ask them to keep it to themselves.

Mr Chairman, I was dismayed, sitting on my chair here, when hon. Ministers stood up on the Floor of this House and called the President of a political party a Grade 4 and a loser who has got no vision and will never rule. Another hon. Minister said that the name Chilufya means loser.

Mr Chairman, I was very dismayed and said to myself, this same man who is being disregarded and not respected on the Floor of this House gave the people on your right serious diarrhoea on 30th October, 2008.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: They were not comfortable because almost the same number of people that voted for President Banda voted for this President of the Opposition party. This means that the Zambian people knew what they were doing when they were casting their votes. From the remarks made on the Floor of this House by the hon. Ministers and the Government in general meant that the people of Zambia, especially those in the Copperbelt, Lusaka, Luapula and Northern Provinces have been insulted. On that point, I wish to ask the hon. Ministers and this Government to apologise to the Zambian people for insulting them in the way they voted. By insulting other presidents, in actual fact, you are saying that the people of Zambia do not know how to vote.

Mr Chairman, before we accept to respect the other President, let the MMD Government apologise to the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, besides that, the people of Zambia vote for a team, it is not only an individual they look for. They look at the team …

Mr Chairperson: I thought you were going to quickly pass on that, but if you are making it an issue, then come back to the budget.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, I wish to make one suggestion before I end my debate. There has been a suggestion going round in this nation, which I think should be seriously considered.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order!

Mr Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, I rarely rise on a point of order. Is Hon. Simuusa in order to allege that we had diarrhoea that he never saw?

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Take that into account as you debate. You may continue.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, before business was suspended I was on a point of respect, which the hon. Minister in the President’s Office requested us to accord the current Head of State.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, we know what your people on your right think of the President and I had wished to ask them to keep it to themselves.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairman, before we accept to respect the other President, let the MMD Government apologise to the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, besides that, the people of Zambia vote for a team, it is not only an individual they look for. They look at the team …

Mr Chairperson: I thought you were going to quickly pass on that, but if you are making it an issue, then come back to the budget.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, I wish to make one suggestion before I end my debate. There has been a suggestion going round in this nation, which I think should be seriously considered.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order!

Mr Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, I rarely rise on a point of order. Is Hon. Simuusa in order to allege that we had diarrhoea that he never saw?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Take that into account as you debate. You may continue.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, before business was suspended I was on a point of respect, which the hon. Minister in the President’s Office requested us to accord the current Head of State.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, we know what your people on your right think of the President and I had wished to ask them to keep it to themselves.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairman, before we accept to respect the other President, let the MMD Government apologise to the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, besides that, the people of Zambia vote for a team, it is not only an individual they look for. They look at the team …

The Deputy Chairperson: I thought you were going to quickly pass on that, but if you are making it an issue, then come back to the budget.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairman, I wish to make one suggestion before I end my debate. There has been a suggestion going round in this nation, which I think should be seriously considered.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, I rarely rise on a point of order. Is Hon. Simuusa in order to allege that we had diarrhoea that he never saw?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Take that into account as you debate. You may continue.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I will qualify it. It is political diarrhoea.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, there have been proposes going around in this nation and indeed in the House which I think should be considered. There are suggestions that presidents of other big political parties probably one or two should also be funded.

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa: I say this because this is tax payers’ money. It is for Zambians who vote and who want this country to run. If this is tax payers’ money, we should seriously consider funding probably two or three presidents of political parties.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice, SC: Mr Chairperson, it is quite clear from the debates which have gone on that this particular vote is not controversial. It has been well supported.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You may continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice, SC: The hon. Members who have debated have emphasised the need for us to support our beloved President and look after him properly. This budget aims at achieving this.

I wish to thank hon. Members for the overwhelming support. Please, support the budget.

Thank you, Sir.

VOTE 01/01 – (Office of the President – State House – Headquarters - K22,837,798,494).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, with your permission, I have a number of questions. The first is on Programme 1, Activity 04 - Wages – K1,184,130,636 and Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K2,963,592,556, why is it that we have allocated more money to a budget line for other emoluments than we have allocated to the actual salaries?

The second question is on Programme 2, Activity 06 – Transport Management – K6,491,149,577. I have the response given last year by the then Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, Hon. George Mpombo. When I asked why there was an increase from K5.1 billion to K6 billion, his answer was that fuel costs had increased. I want to find out what has necessitated this increase this year when the fuel price today is actually much lower than it was this day last year.

The third question emanates from Programme 8, Activity 04 – Landscaping and Gardening – K142,750,000. It will be recalled that in November, 2008, there was a landscaper at State House who raised some questions amongst our citizens and the response from none other than the tenant at Plot 1 at State House said that the landscaper was going to offer free service to State House. How come the free service is now demanding K142,750,000? This because I hear somebody…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Vice-President and Minister of Justice, SC will be required to answer and so he is writing his notes.

You may continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I would like that when the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, SC attempts to answer that question, he must bear in mind that we are aware that wages paid for landscapers at State House are budgeted for under the right vote called Emoluments. Over and above, we are aware that landscaping is not cleaning.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are debating. Can you ask your question, please?

Mr Lubinda: It is landscaping. Why have they been landscaping State House for the last seven years? Munilesa kuchita [You do not allow me to] debate, that is why.

The Minister for Presidential Affairs (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, there is an increase in the figure on Activity 04 because there was a general increase of 15 per cent in salaries last year and so I have taken into account this as we are supposed to pay the workers.

On the other emoluments, the employees also are due for their long service bonus, leave days, over time and terminal benefits and so we have to budget such for them. In fact, they do not graduate at the same time. We said it last year and the system continues.

Hon. Opposition Members interjected

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the cost of fuel has also risen and the price of spare parts is also rising. We are aware of what is happening globally and so the maintenance costs are going up and hence that provision.

In terms of the other activity raised under Programme 8, Activity 04 – Landscaping and Gardening, hon. Members during their debate raised concern over the gardens of State House. There is also a Golf Course which we need to maintain at State House and so there is need for us to have such a provision.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, in view of the fact that the Police Camp at State House is very dirty, I would like to find out if Programme 2, Activity 05 – Maintenance of State House – K450,001,400 includes the money to rehabilitate and clean the Police Camp at State House. Secondly, on Programme 8, Activity 05 – Management of State House Wild Animals – K80,000,000, why should we continue maintaining wild animals at K6.6 million per month when we have a credit crunch and people in Luanshya have no jobs as a result of closed mines? Why can we not take that money to poverty alleviation?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are now debating. You have asked the question.

Mr Kambwili: Take those animals to the bush.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the cleanliness of State House includes the houses in question. The animals add to the beauty of State House. The House may wish to know the numbers of animals at State House:

Animal Number

Impala 181

Lechwe 55

Duiker 35

Spotted Deer 18

Rabbit 18

Ducks 172

Ostrich 2

Monkey 250

Laughter

Hon MMD Members: Kambwili!

Mr Namulambe:

Animal number
Guinea fowls 100

Pee fowls 230

There was a person who had talked about State House being one of Zambia’s attractions. These animals add to the beauty and we cannot throw them into the bush.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 03 – Institutional Budget Preparation – K150,000,000. I would like to find out what per cent of this amount is for workshops. I know that the preparation of two pages for the Budget at State House cannot cost this much.

I seek further clarification on Programme 5, Activity 1 – Short Term Training – K120, 000, 000 and Activity 2 – Long Term Training – K111, 000,000. It is important that the first family is given some training. I would like to know whether the first family has been incorporated in this training. This is because the children of the former Presidents have had a syndrome of pulling down the President. It is, therefore important that they are trained in etiquette.

Mr D. Mwila: They have already started.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The problem is that you are making statements instead of asking questions.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson is the First Family is included in these trainings so that they can be taught on do’s and don’ts of State House in order for them not to pull down the President.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think that is enough. The hon. Minister may respond.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I have not finished.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are supposed to ask questions. The problem is that you are debating. If you go on like that, we will not finish this Budget. It is nice if you have more than one question, but make them fast. You are debating and taking too long on the Floor.

Mr V. Mwale: Mukanga stop lecturing us!

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: I thank you Mr Chairperson. I also seek clarification on Programme 8 …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, we represent our people …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, it is procedural. We are people’s representatives and have to debate on their behalf in this house.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, the reason I have raised this point of order is because …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I want to understand where he is going. What is your point of order?

Mr D. Mwila: We are not allowed to debate.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: We are all here to represent our people, but I will not allow you to continue if I find it fit.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You put us in the Chair to guide the House. If you think you are going to say things beyond what the Chair thinks you should, you will not have it.

The Hon. Minister may continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 1 – Catering – K1,450,576,200. I would like to find out why there is an increase because what has changed is the First Family only. The former First Family was slightly bigger than the new one. Therefore, why have we increased this allocation?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 03 – Institutional Budget Preparation – K150,000,000, with regard to what per cent of the K150,000,000 is for workshops, I am not in the position to give the percentage. However, it is basically very minimal because much of it is going to cover issues related to budgeting, including the purchase of computer software and the connections under the Integrated Financial Management and Information System (IFMIS) to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Chairperson, it is not right that we should delve into discussing the Head of State. The training referred to is for the members of staff. There was also concern on security. There are changes in a lot of issues on a daily basis. This training, therefore is for the members of staff. We know that members of the First Family are people of high integrity and we need to respect them.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, with regard to Programme 8, Activity 1 – Catering – K1,450,576,200, you are aware that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are talking while he is answering the question.

Mr Namulambe: There is an increase in the food stuff because we expect as many people as possible to be invited to state functions, including the person that raised the question.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me give guidance on a misconception that we seem to have. We have rules that guide us in the House. You are taking advantage of the Chair’s leniency. From now on, I will go by the rules that we have set for ourselves and that is one question per person.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 1 – Catering – K1,450,576,200. I recall that a couple of years ago, somebody was arrested for stealing a Guinea fowl at State House because of hunger. Have you provided for the workers in this Budget so that they are properly looked after and are not forced to steal.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, we have taken care of that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5 – Capacity Building – K231,000,000. I note that this provision was not there in the previous year. I would like to know what has necessitated the provision this year.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 3 – Staff Training, has no allocation this year because we have put it under capacity building in Programme 5. That is why it looks like a new item.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 02– (Office of the Vice-President – K21,136,347,550).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the estimates of expenditure for my office for the year 2009.

Sir, from the onset, this Budget is presented against the background of great uncertainty in the world economy. Therefore, it is my hope that hon. Members will take this into account in their debate.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to remind hon. Members that the Office of the Vice-President derives its legal status from Article 45 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

In this regard, the Vice-President is the principal assistant to the President in the discharge of the Executive functions and is responsible for advising the President with respect to the policy of the Government and any other such matters as may be assigned to him by the President.

Sir, arising from this mandate, the portfolio functions of the Office of the Vice-President include:

(a) leader of Government Business in the House;
(b) disaster management and mitigation;
(c) resettlement; and
(d) investiture ceremonies.

The Office of the Vice-President also performs important cross-cutting functions regarding issues referred to it by line ministries and other institutions on matters such as:

(a) social welfare, poverty alleviation and HIV/AIDS;
(b) chiefs affairs and traditional ceremonies;
(c) religious affairs; and
(d) labour and public relations to mention but a few.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that during the 2008 financial year, my office was allocated K23, 363,476,335. This amount enabled us to deal with the problem of flooding in Lusaka and other parts of the country, among other things.

Sir, under the department of resettlement the importance of the land resettlement programmes being implemented by the department of resettlement cannot be over emphasised since our people need serviceable land to settle and contribute to national food security. We need funding to provide basic infrastructure in resettlement schemes to make them attractive and productive.

With emphasis on agriculture as an engine to economic growth, land resettlement development should be supported as this can go a long way in creating wealth and decongesting our towns and cities.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I have a Parliamentary Business Division which assists me to co-ordinate all the business that the Government brings to this august House.

This Division co-ordinates and processes all Parliamentary Business such as reports and questions and various information memoranda to enable hon. Members make informed decisions on matters of national importance.

The Division assists the Executive in regard to facilitation of processing of Government Bills, responses to Motions, ministerial statements and Action Taken Reports, among other responsibilities of the Executive to Parliament.

In this regard, the Division has to contend with increased workload emanating from the ongoing Parliamentary reforms which have reduced the time within which the assignments have to be done. The Budget will support all these activities.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to disaster management, during the 2007 to 2008 rain season, the country experienced floods in thirty-nine districts. The floods destroyed infrastructure such as roads, bridges and habitations and adversely affected critical sectors such as agriculture, health, education, water and sanitation.

Sir, my office through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DDMU) under took a number of measures to mitigate the effects of floods, by providing food and non food relief items. With support from co-operating partners, local and foreign, we managed the situation.

The unit in conjunction with the Road Development Agency (RDA) rehabilitated some damaged infrastructure across the country.

Hon. Members will appreciate that my office played a critical role in ensuring prevention of loss of life, minimising suffering of the affected communities and damage to property.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to say a few words about this year’s Budget before the House.

As indicated in the 2009 Budget Address, this year’s Budget is presented under the theme “Enhancing Growth through Competitiveness and Diversification”.

Sir, this year our total estimate is K21,136,347,550. Given the general resource level, this amount, if approved by you, hon. Members of Parliament, will go a long way in achieving our objectives.

With this background, hon. Members of this august House, I urge you to support this Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this vote.

Sir, I mentioned in the general debate that this should be a year of austerity and that much of the duplication which exists in the Government system can easily be cut out in order to prevent a situation in which the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) has to start following its foreign exchange reserves around the place just to stop the kwacha breaking the K6,000 barrier, which it seems determined to do. The news on all fronts from abroad: Japan, the United Kingdom (UK) and Russia indicates that things will be even worse than the hon. Minister imagines, at least, in the medium term.

One example of duplication of function can be found in this mornings Zambia Daily Mail page 3 with the headline “Lusaka Cholera Cases Drop”. Now, you would think from the back chart that one gets of our hon. Members, with German nicknames, and people like Hon. Genghis Tetamashimba …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … that there was only one body dealing with cholera in Lusaka. However, if you were to read this story, you would find that the District Commissioner is the one speaking, no one has asked the Lusaka City Council what is happening because the money is under the control of the District Commissioner, Ms Kalulu, who is the Chairperson of the Lusaka District Disaster Management Committee which is working under DMMU in the Office of the Vice-President.

I will make the brief political point that any complaints from anyone who has not managed to die of cholera should be directed to the right place.

Mr Mukanga: Yes!

Dr Scott: I will make the slightly more substantive point that there is no point in duplicating. You have your own problems in Lusaka which are water, sanitation and drainage and these are local Government functions. We have a Government which claims to be committed to decentralisation, but instead, we are running the functions of the councils through a completely parallel channel. We are expected, as a House, to put money into this and that channel.

Mr Chairperson, it seems to me that the hon. Minister could take the advice that I gave him during the general debate seriously. Why not shut down the DMMU? The DMMU is performing in fact, two quite distinct functions. One is the function of farming relief and rural health which has previously been organised in a very massively deccentralised way and the programme to prevent malnutrition. Unfortunately, the chief cadre from Luapula Province (Hon. Kawimbe) has just left the House, but when he was hon. Minister of Health, was chairman of that structure. He managed to feed a lot of people very cheaply and economically using all the resources and all the different bodies that wanted to come in from the Red Cross in the Southern Province to the Catholic Church in Northern Province and the rest.

Mr Chairperson, the other formal function is basically local Governance which is putting out files of one sort after another. Therefore, I would urge the hon. Minister to take this opportunity to look at this curse that we have been visited by, in the nature of the world meltdown, as a blessing, actually, because it is going to force him to cut something. So, let him cut what he does not need and rationalise our Government. We may be much cheaper than Harvard or London to run. We may even be cheaper than a small town in Scotland called Car Luke, where my father was born, but that does not mean that we are cheap relative to the resources that we have. This Government is over grown and duplicated and confused because no one ever knows who is responsible for what or where the money is going. There is competition. Everybody wants the money and so they can hold workshops and go visiting the world to see how they deal with cholera when you can look it up on the internet and it gives you the complete story.

Mr Chairperson, I will break the record and come in under five minutes.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate on this very important head. In the first place, I want to thank His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice for doing a commendable job during the time when disasters befell this country. This was quite rapid and quite recommendable your honour.

Mr Chairperson, I want to dwell on the question of resettlement. Year in and year out, from this House and in many quarters of our country, we have talked about the problem of food…

Professor Lungwangwa crossed the Floor.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: …because of the disasters that befell this country and we did not actually have enough food to offset this problem. If we are going to toll the line of what Government is talking about everyday, that of ensuring that we take serious steps and go into serious agriculture, then we will be able to offset this problem. We are going to do this quite well if we look more at the question of resettlement schemes.

Mr Chairperson, you know very well that every province has one settlement scheme. I am sure that in these schemes, emphasis is being put on the people getting involved in agricultural activities. The reason is that they should be able to contribute to the food requirements of this country. We also know that emphasis is being put to ensure that in those resettlement scheme areas, the infrastructure is put to good use so that our people are able to access…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am uncomfortable with the loud consultations going on. Please if you have something serious to discuss, leave the Chamber and talk from outside. If you want to do it in this House, please do it quietly so that the person debating can be heard.

Continue.

Dr Scott interjected.

Mr Mabenga: Now, Guy Scot, I am speaking.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair. Continue.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I was actually saying that it is important that infrastructure development takes route in these resettlement schemes. On Vote 02/03, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Stakeholders’ Consultative Meetings – K54,756,000. This is to ensure that they are able to get funds to see what can be done for these resettlement areas and I have discovered that this year, the allocation has actually dropped from K56,850,000 to K54,756,000. I believe very strongly that consultative process is very important because this will be able to give a lot of ideas and information to whoever will be planning for these areas. It would have been better if the amount on the vote was either maintained or increased.

Sir, on the same vote, if you look at Programme 7, Activity 02 – Monitoring of National Land Resettlement Programme – k 30,198,000. This is a very important sector. We must have officers who are be able to go out into the country side to go and see whether what has been put in place is actually being used to the advantage of the people. Last year, the allocation was K56,850,000 while this year, it has dropped to K30,198,000. There is a reduction here again. My plea to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is to recast because I think this is a very important sector of development in our country.

Mr Chairperson, I said that I would put more emphasis on this vote and I will not deviate from it. On the same vote, Programme 8, there is Scheme Infrastructure Development. I mentioned before that there is need for improvement in road and water supply development and plant and equipment rehabilitation. Once again, you will find that the activity figures have dropped except for Programme 8, Activity 01 – Scheme Access Road Development –k435,516,400 which has risen by only K5 million and this my view is not enough.

Sir, furthermore, if you look at Programme 9, Activity 01, Settler Educational Exchange Visits –k29,811,000, it is very important as it will enable settlers to go and see what others are doing in different parts of the country. Under this activity, the figure has actually dropped by almost 50 per cent. I feel that these visits are very important because if they are not carried out, people in different parts of the country will not be able to learn from each other. Once again, I want to request that this be looked at again so that something substantial could be come up with. These settlement schemes as we understand are there to really develop the country especially for people who may not have employment at that particular time.

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, I would always want to refer to Mulobezi Constituency. As I stated in my general debate two weeks ago, this Constituency has rich loamy soils like most of the parts of the country. I also want to refer to Kataba area. This area, which stretches from part of Luampa Constituency into Mulobezi Constituency, has large parts of rich loamy soils which are lying idle. In my view, it would do this country a great deal of good if such pieces of land were turned into resettlement areas.

This area is not as remote as one would want to think. The road from Luampa to Mulobezi actually passes through it. Many of us know from history that the road was actually used mostly by Rossi Transport Limited. It was the road that most people took from Kazungula via Mulobezi and through to Mongu for business.

Hon. MMD Member: Gwendela.

Mr Mabenga: No, Gwendela was the other road. However, this too was a very important road and this is why we have always asked for it to be done. I am glad that some money has been allocated for this project. However, I hope that the companies that bade for this road will come up and work on it soon. If this road can be rehabilitated, the difficulties that people have when moving from Mongu to Sesheke through Senanga will come to an end. The journey would be shorter passing through Luampa and Mulobezi, by joining the Livingstone/Sesheke tar road as they would not have to come to Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, I am lobbying that resettlement schemes, which are very few, be increased in number. The population of this country has grown and it will continue to do so. The number of retirees, leaving employment of their own accord, is increasing and these people need to do something thereafter. They must continue contributing to an element of this country. They may not be able to do technical work, but surely, they can do agricultural work. That way, they will increase food production and ensure that the problem of food is not an issue people will talk about all the time.

Hon. Opposition Member: Munkombwe!

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, once again, to look at these figures. The resettlement department is very important for the development of this country.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L J Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairperson, from the onset, I would like to state that I support this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, having said that, I would like to indicate that the Office of the Vice-President is extremely important when it comes to managing disasters which occur every year. Perhaps, this is why DMMU is a permanent establishment.

Mr Chairperson, as Government, we must begin to do away with disasters, if we can. Disasters should not be yearly occurrences. We must be able to budget, on a yearly basis, because we know exactly which areas are struck by them. Let us focus on areas where disasters occur every year and prevent them. A good example is Kanyama Compound. We know that this area experiences disasters every year so why can we not look at their causes in order to take measures to mitigate?

Mr Chairperson, in Kwacha Constituency, there are certain compounds that are along the banks of the Kafue River. Year in year out, these houses collapse because of floods. When this happens, all the necessary information about the occurrence is sent to the headquarters. I am afraid, however to say that the response is not forthcoming on time. If it does come, it comes when the disaster is almost over and even then, we consider ourselves really lucky.

The response, especially for us who come from peri-urban and rural areas, leaves much to be desired in the sense that the way the capacity of the human resource has been aligned in different districts and provinces is that to get any access for disaster victims, everything must first go to headquarters. They will tell you to go to the district where a report is prepared and submitted to the province which also submits it to headquarters. By the time the response is coming, the victims will have suffered beyond measure.

Mr Chairperson, much as administration is receiving a colossal sum of money, we would like to appeal to the hon. Vice-President to ensure that his team is on site soon after a case of disaster is reported. As I alluded to earlier when I debated on the Budget Speech, I will only pray that this time around, your team responds to disasters on time.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Ms Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Office of the Vice-President, which looks at the functions of the Vice-President and is as important as the Office of the President.

Mr Chairperson, there are three issues that I would like to raise under this Vote. The first issue is on resettlement. The department of resettlement is indeed very important. Taking into account His Excellency, the President’s repeated statement carried on during the budget about reducing poverty, when you look at some of these figures, you begin to think, as an hon. Member of Parliament, that indeed poverty can be reduced. In my humble opinion, the department of resettlement is key in the reduction of poverty.

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency, there are two resettlement areas, the Kanakantapa Resettlement Scheme, which is an old scheme and the Mwanawasa Resettlement Scheme, which is relatively new. Poor people, who are leaving town, go to settle in these schemes. What is happening now is that because this department is not well funded, they are not able to give basic needs like infrastructure, clean water and sanitation. The result is that people resettled in these schemes only stay for a short period because they feel neglected, running back to the streets of Lusaka. As such, we are not reducing poverty.

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that in the recent past in Mandevu, right here in Lusaka, we had a problem where some people were supposed to be transferred to one of the resettlement schemes in Chongwe. However, they refused to do so citing that it was a bush and the people who lived there lived like animals. That is the public’s perception regarding these resettlement schemes. It is like we are using these resettlement areas to dump people and overlook them. Looking at the budget, one can tell that something is wrong because instead of increasing the allocation, it is being reduced. How can we reduce poverty like this? I want to echo what Hon. Mabenga said, that the hon. Minister should re-look at this resettlement budget and see what can be done.

Mr Chairperson, earlier on when we were debating the Vote on the Office of the President, and this applies to the Office of the Vice-President as well; there was talk about the office of the First lady. I would like to talk about the office of the Second Lady, if there is anything like that.

I us want to submit that the women that are married to these men that have become Presidents or Vice-Presidents play a big role in ensuring that their husbands succeed. It is therefore, necessary that we begin to formalise these issues…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear

Mrs Masebo: …so that we can have a vote under the wife of the Vice-President or at least, the wife of the President

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: There is no need to pretend. From experience, we have seen how much work these women have contributed in making their husbands succeed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, let us formalise these offices and ensure that the resources are put there.

Mr Muntanga: What about our wives?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, most of the men who are seated here were not going to be here had it not been for their wives.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: In fact, it is the women that do most of the work for these people. Even when the vulnerable people go to homes of hon. Members of Parliament, it is the wives that cook, entertain and assist these elected men.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I think that it is necessary that we look at our own culture. What is the culture that has been developed over the years? We have seen the women do a lot of work on behalf or in support of their husbands. Therefore, I think that Government should seriously begin reflecting on this issue and the public should debate this issue whether indeed, First Ladies should be sleeping dormant and just enjoying themselves or indeed, should be participating by helping their husbands as has been the trend in the last few years that we have seen. I remember Madam Vera Chiluba was very good when she was First Lady in terms of assisting the vulnerable. Mrs Maureen Mwanawasa was equally very good in assisting the vulnerable and I think both women…

Hon. Opposition Members: Mama Betty Kaunda!

Mrs Masebo: I do not remember Mama Betty. I am sure she did something. I was still young at that time and I was not alert to what was happening. However, all I can say is that since she was also honoured, I am sure she did a lot of work as a First Lady. Therefore, I think that it is important that the vote is considered in the future.

Mr Chairperson, the other point which I want to refer to is that – I am happy that I had asked this question to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Development about issues of utility companies and ensuring that all sectors of Government provide or budget for paying for electricity, telephone and water bills. I had said that one of the problems that we have is that Government is not helping itself. In most cases, they are the biggest defaulters when it comes to these bills. I am happy to see that on both votes under the President’s Office and now the Vice-President’s Office, it is clear that there is money put aside for them. I hope that this trend will cut across all the sectors of Government. I also want to say that controlling officers should ensure that this money is paid. I know for a fact that once upon a time, the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company almost disconnected State House for non-payment of water bills. I also recall that the former President gave them a go ahead and he was very upset that there was a such a problem to the extent that he directed that chief Executives who did not pay when the money was budgeted for be arrested because it was an offence that money which was budgeted for got diverted to other issues at the expense of ignoring our own companies.

Mr Chairperson, today, we have the problem of Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL). One of the reasons is simply ourselves, Government and citizens in some cases, who do not pay our bills. Therefore, when this company starts collapsing, do not blame management. We must start blaming ourselves because it is us that are killing our own institutions. This is a very important point, small as it might be seem, but really this issue of ensuring that the budget lines for utility companies are there and the money is paid is very important. I want to say that Government must ensure that all the sectors have this vote.

Lastly I wanted to say that State House and the Government House are public institutions for the citizens of Zambia. Therefore, as a Zambian, I would not be proud to have either of the Houses dilapidated whereby when you are in the toilet you cannot flash properly because the cistern is not working efficiently. When visitors come to that House, it reflects the image of Zambia as a country. Therefore, it is important that we support that our Government House and State House look honourable …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: …because if they do not really, then, I do not know. They say that charity begins at home. The way those police houses look is very embarrassing. You cannot say that the Head of State is living in a good environment if those people who are serving him like cooks and police officers that are protecting him are living like they are in those unplanned settlements. It is important that controlling officers ensure that the money that has gone under Programme 2, Activity 05 – maintenance of State House and Government House be…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are making a point, but I think that you should come back the Vice-President’s Office.

May you continue.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the guidance.

Sir, I note that under the Vice-President’s Office which is similar to the Office of the President, there is a vote under administration on maintenance of grounds. In my view, this would mean all the other structures nearby or around. Therefore, I was just trying to use the example of the police houses around State House. I am sure that at the Government House, there are also some servant’s quarters which must also be taken into account when we are doing renovations. We need to have a clean environment at these two big houses. Therefore, I would like to support the need for adequate resources. Having said that, I would like to urge the people implementing this budget to ensure that the money is spent on the intended purposes for the good of Zambia.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I would like to make a few comments on this very import vote.

In so doing, let me start with the Human Settlement Department. Knowing that we have that department in the Office of the Vice-President, it is extremely ironical that in Zambia we have victims of displacement. We have to go back to the basics and find out under what circumstance Zambians are displaced.

Firstly, it is on instances like infamous Sichifulo where the Government on its own decides to displace its people.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The second is when people who hold title to land go to court to have people, so-called illegal squatters, removed from their land. In either instances, everyone will be aware of the fact that at one stage or another people are bound to be displaced. If we had DDMU the very important Office of the Vice-President, should we not be ready before people are displaced? When the Mazyopa people were displaced, the matter was in court. Was the office of the Vice-President blind to the fact that there was a matter in court? Why did they not prepare for them instead of being reactive? Could they not prepare knowing that those people were illegal squatters on a piece of land that belonged to somebody? Certainly, they should have prepared.

Mr Chairperson, the trouble that we have in this country is that we always wait and say fili eko tuleya [We will cross the bridge when we get there]. I would like to urge the Vice-President that the syndrome of “Let us wait and see” should change. We must be able to prepare well in advance.

Yesterday, we were talking about the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZ). I spoke about the potential identification of Chilenje. One day, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing came to this House saying that those displaced in Mazyopa would go to an area called Mahopo as though they did not know what the Government’s programme was.

This Government’s programme is to place the MFEZ on Mahopo land. Therefore, meaning that the people in Mahopo are potential displaced people. Has the Office of the Vice-President prepared for them? You have not! If you take your Malaysian friends there people will be scampering in all directions. Then you will ask the Red Cross to go and put up makeshift tents for them. The problem is that we all have these institutions but we do not use them and the reason we do so is because we do not allocate sufficient resources.

We know that this is a very difficult year but it is ironical that there is 10 per cent increase in the allocation of the Office of the President and yet in real terms, the budget for the year has decreased by 17 per cent. The Office of the Vice-President’s budget has been slashed and yet it is the one that is supposed to mitigate against disaster. That is where the problem lies. We have institutions, but we do not have the will to utilise them.

Sir, let me move on to the issue of floods. It is extremely frustrating to hear an hon. Minister, one who drives a flag courtesy of the Zambian people and of the election of one President because they were not the ones elected, comes here and says,

“It is not the responsibility of Central Government to mitigate against the floods in Lusaka. It is the responsibility of the Lusaka City Council, simply because, Lusaka City Council is dominated by Patriotic Front (PF) and United Party for National Development (UPND) councillors.”

Hon. Government Member: You have no mayor!

Mr Lubinda: How sad, when we actually have a unit which is the one charged with the responsibility of ensuring that in the event of a flood, they have to spend sleepless nights.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We are talking about an hon. Minister who is responsible for Works and Supply. The one who should ensure that there are drainages opened up in the whole of Lusaka City. He is the one who is saying, “This is the responsibility of the Member of Parliament for Mandevu using her K600 million CDF.” Furthermore, I heard the Minister of Finance and National Planning saying, “In this years Budget there has been an allocation K10 billion to go towards opening up drainage systems in Lusaka.”

Dr Scott: Where is it?

Mr Lubinda: My dear friends, I want to tell you that opening up only 400 metres of drainage in Kamwala, Bombay Drainage, is K4.8 billion. What will the K10 billion do, Hon. Mulongoti? It cannot and it will not do anything.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: I would like to urge the Office of the Vice-President to ensure that DMMU is used for that purpose to mitigate. However, it is not the one responsible for providing the basic infrastructure. That responsibility rests on the Ministry of Works and Supply. If the Ministry of Works and Supply does not have the will, can they please transfer the resources to the local authorities. If not, please, allow the local authorities to start taxing the people so that you, in Central Government, do not collect tax.

Dr Scott: Let the councils collect tax directly!

Mr Lubinda: Let councils collect tax so that they use it to deliver development. You cannot on one hand stick to tax and on the other refuse responsibility of providing development. That is not acceptable.

Mr Chairperson, last year, the hon. Members of Parliament representing the people of Lusaka had a very huge problem with regard to flooding. The Office of the Vice-President then sent the occupant of that office in a chopper around the whole city of Lusaka to assess the damage to our road infrastructure. At the end of that chopper tour, it was publicly announced that K16 billion had been secured to open up drainage systems in Lusaka. It was only in October of 2008 that the District Commissioner, using her own initiative, called a meeting of hon. Members of Parliament to tell them that there was only K2.4 billion available. Kabwata, in October, had already been flooded. By then, Kanyama was a no go area and yet the Vice-President had allocated the K16 billion from as early as March of 2008. Why they waited until October/November, only Hon. Mulongoti and the like would know.

Major Chizhyuka: They were waiting for cholera!

Mr Lubinda: They were waiting for a disaster to hit so that they could turn around and say that the Lusaka Councillors have failed. That is not how to govern.

Sir, the Office of the Vice-President is also responsible for Parliamentary Business.

Mr Mulongoti: On a point of order.

Mr Lubinda: I want to say, Sir, that …

Hon. PF Members: Awe!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … the Minister will have an opportunity to answer back.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order. Is the hon. Member who is debating so well in order to apportion blame instead of acknowledging the fact that it is a shared responsibility? I seek your ruling Sir?

Hon. PF Members: He is in order!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue debating and take that point of order into account.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, as a way of taking my dear friend’s point of order into account, I want to say, thank you God, finally, Hon. Mulongoti is starting to realise that the running of Lusaka is a shared responsibility.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The Central Government having a bigger steak because they control the tax that the people of Lusaka pay must realise it is also their responsibility to partly run this city. It is not Lusaka City Council neither the individual Members of Parliament nor the individual business men and women, but it is Government. I want to commend you Hon. Mulongoti for realising this very quickly.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the matter that I wanted to end my debate on is the Department of Parliamentary Business in the Office of the Vice-President.

Sir, those who have been in this House longer than I have been, will join me in saying; there has been a marked improvement in the work that we seen here as a result of this department. The quality of answers we get is certainly much better than hitherto we were used to.

Hon. PF Member: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: Nonetheless, I want to say that there are some people who, even if this office is doing its utmost best to provide good answers to them, decide to be frivolous. Just for the sake of being petty.

However, I want to say that this office, the Department of Parliamentary Business has noble men and women who prepare and check answers because they have respect for this House or this institution of Parliament. That is the reason why we are approving money to that department.

I would, therefore, like to appeal through you, Sir, to the Vice-President, being the co-ordinator of ministers, to ensure that when they come here to provide answers, they provide those that have some respect for this institution. There is no reason whatsoever to come into this House with half truths and, particularly, to come and say things here with an intention to insult or demean any individual or a group of hon. Members of Parliament. If that was what the intention of this House was, we would not be allocating money to the Office of the Vice-President in the Department of Parliamentary Business.

I am sure that with the reflection that has been exposed by Hon. Mulongoti, many others must also follow suit.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, I will be very mild and brief …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sichilima: … because most of the hon. Members of Parliament know the importance of this Vote and are very supportive. I just wish to comment on a few things, if anything, correct the impression created by a few Members.

Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, we need to give credit where it is due. The Lusaka Disaster Management Team headed by the District Commissioner did a commendable job.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: This Team consists of councillors and hon. Members of Parliament whom the District Commissioner has been working with, including the Town Clerk, Mr Akuyu. They did a commendable job.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, last year, was a disaster really. Despite some money being released, we did not see any good work.

Sir, those who have debated before me have commended His Honour the Vice-President for his good leadership and guidance on the constitution of this team.

Mr Chairperson, there has been a mention of K16 billion. However, I must say that money released by DMMU has to be followed and managed by this unit. The money released by the council must be managed by the council. Hon. Dr Scott, it is not correct to say that the money was channelled through DMMU which took the responsibilities of the council. People must understand what disaster, which is in our department, is. We only move in where there is disaster. Once attended to, what remains are plans of the council.

For example, we all heard that Lusaka City Council had billions of Kwacha in their budget, and if I remember very well, it was about K154 billion. They planned for social amenities such as roads and opening up of culverts because this is the responsibility of the council.

If the central Government is giving grants, it will be like they are riding on the council because councils make the money. Mr Chairperson, that also calls for planning like Hon. Mulenga said, we do not plan for disasters, but budget for those that may occur. The councils have every year planned for such work and it should be on-going.

Mr Chairperson, I quickly want to comment on resettlement. There has been a reduction in the allocation but I would like to say that planning has been done because in most of the districts, we have resettlement areas. You see a reduction by surveying some done work. Should we open new resettlement schemes when most of them have not been occupied? We can talk of Nansanga and the one in Katombola, because we still have people who are willing to settle there. At this point, I would like to commend the hon. Member for Katombola and the Royal Highnesses there who gave away this land.

Mr Chairperson, when people were moved from flooded areas to where they are today, it became the work of the resettlement scheme and the local authorities to put up social amenities including roads, water and sanitation. Hon. Mulenga also talked about planning and I would like to tell him that if there is a bridge that has been washed away by the rains and they are over, then it is the duty of the line ministries after the district has done the planning.

Mr Chairperson, what Hon. Masebo said on showing passion to First Ladies is correct. When she came to resettlement, she talked about Kanakantapa, a model you can talk about. She also talked about the Mwanawasa resettlement area and went on to talk about the people from Mandevu who declined the offer to settle there. The Government cannot start putting up roads in an area where people are not willing to move to. The first thing was for people to move and the social amenities would have followed.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda was in the beginning very mild in his debate until, as usual, he got controversial. I would like to remind him that he is a councillor and when it comes to resettlement, he should not politicise issues when Government wants to help the people. Do not politicise issues of resettlement simply because you want a vote. We should always strive to work with Government to ensure that the unsettled move to good areas. At present, we have the Mwanawasa resettlement and in Kanakatampa there are some places where people were supposed to be moved to …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, he is on record …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order,

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, he is on record having gone there to stop the people from moving and yet Government was willing to move them.

Mr Lubinda: To where?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, such hon. Members should refrain from politicising important issues because these people are suffering. Government does not take pleasure in seeing these people living in tents throughout the year.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Lubinda wants to raise a point of order because of cross cutting debate and that is why I asked Hon. Sichilima to address the Chair. Will the hon. Deputy Minister continue, please.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, finally I would like to commend Hon. Lubinda that this time around he is ready to work with Government.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I will be brief in my contribution because I am only going to talk about resettlement schemes.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about resettlement schemes because of the people of Sichifulo who should have been resettled…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member knows that the issue was discussed and I advise her to refrain from discussing it further.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, Government should be fair. When there are people to be resettled in some places, it should take an active role because there are some who are displaced whom Government does not care about and even DDMU does not give tents. They are left to suffer and yet they come from places which were legally given to them.

May the Soul of the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, S.C rest in peace because before he died, he had signed some documents as President of this country. Now that President Rupiah Bwezani Banda has come in, is he going to repeal all of them? No!

Mr Chairperson, when people are settled in an area, they are authorised by a chief to stay there and if that chief dies and another one is installed, are we going to allow the new one to remove these people? These people were asked to move by Government and they were promised schools, clinics, boreholes and roads, but up to now nothing has happened. We are Zambians and why should we be displaced in our own country?

Mr Chairperson, my chiefs have been paraded on television by Government and have even told what to say …

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: That is not correct because you are now dividing and ruling as Government by making us fight with our chiefs. Government is just supposed to advise both sides amicably and not to choose either of the groups. One day you will expect us because we will come to you for land, whether you like it or not, where we are going to build schools, roads and other social amenities, but before that happens, nobody should pretend that those people who were displaced are not Zambians. They are your responsibility as Government.
Mr Chairperson, Care International wanted to give these people tents, but the Government turned down the offer.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mrs Musokotwane: What kind of a Government is this?

Major Chizhyuka: Welensky leadership.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, one hon. Minister says, “We will resettle these people,” but the other one says, “They can go away. We do not care where they will go”.

Mr Muntanga: Go where you have come from.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, that is not acceptable. Treatment of people should be the same, whether MMD, UPND, brown, yellow, pink because we are all Zambians. Even if I am from the Opposition, this Government is mine because it is Zambian. I know you guys always say MMD Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The word guys is unparliamentary. Can you use a better word than guys.

Mrs Musokotwane: I withdraw the word, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: They have a tendency of saying MMD Government. This is a Zambian Government because all of us are part of it. There is nothing you can point at to say that is Government. You and us here are the Government, a Zambian government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I am thankful for the support which this Vote has received. As Government, we have taken note of the various suggestions made by the hon. Members. The debate in many respects has been very constructive except for Hon. Dr Guy Scott, who seems to suggest that because some of the activities in Lusaka District can be done by the council, then we do not need DDMU. DDMU does not only serve Lusaka, but the whole country. We deal with disasters which can occur not only in Lusaka, but in other parts of the country. So, we shall continue to have it so that we can tackle disasters in many cases and as the name suggests disasters which are unexpected. Therefore, we need this very important unit.

Mr Chairperson, on resettlement schemes, I will agree with Hon. Masebo, that resettlement schemes can assist in mitigating or reducing poverty. In fact, that is why as a Government we have resettlement areas and schemes in all the nine provinces. This is a very important activity which my office needs to pay equal attention to. This office should not deal with the famous relief food and mitigation or responding to disasters only. We should also allocate resources by providing amenities and facilities in resettlement areas so that those who find themselves without employment and need land can settle comfortably in these areas, especially to contribute in food production. This is because we are trying to diversify the economy.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Masebo, made a very important point regarding the way we look after the first and second ladies. I have been researching on this matter since I was Attorney-General. I know that in Rosebury’s laws of England in comparison to the position in the United Kingdom (UK), the Queen is the head of state and the royal family as opposed to Zambia where, of course, we combine the Head of State and Head of Government. However, it is the same thing. There, you will find the way they budget and provide for such families is different. So, I think it is something, if you we all agree in this august House, it can be looked into so that these important offices which contribute to charity and various activities can be well looked after by the state. The state should not just benefit from the services of these important ladies.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Quality.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, of course, there is need to look after State House and Government House in terms of rehabilitation.

Hon. Lubinda also has been very constructive for a change.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I hope he will keep on with this kind of changed attitude of debating and contributing constructively to national issues. I know he is listening wherever he is.

Mr Chairperson, we have taken note of issues of providing reasonable answers to parliamentary questions. We shall strive as Government, collectively, to provide answers. We believe that we provide reasonable and adequate information to this august House. I think I will end here.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 05 ─ (Electoral Commission ─ K41,613,615,213).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for the opportunity given to present the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) 2009 budget.

ECZ was established as an autonomous body under Article 76 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia to conduct elections to the Office of the President and National Assembly. The commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries, into which Zambia is divided for the purpose of elections to the National Assembly. The core purpose of ECA therefore is to enable citizens to elect their representatives.

In addition to the constitutional functions, the commission has statutory functions that include the supervision of a referendum, conducting and supervision of Local Government elections and the performance of any other statutory function that the National Assembly may call upon it.

Mr Chairperson, during 2008, the commission undertook several activities which included the Presidential elections. Following the tragic and untimely death of our President, the late Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace, the commission had to undertake the Presidential election which entailed, among other things, a countrywide exercise to replace lost voters’ cards. Alongside the Presidential election, the commission undertook five Parliamentary and twenty-nine Local Government elections.

The commission in 2009 will continue to review its performance based on lessons learnt arising from the 2006 elections and 2008 Presidential election. The issues being addressed include the efficient correction of errors in the voters’ register, enhancing the candidate management system and the efficient compilation and transmission of results.

On general management, the commission will need to enhance both human and material resources efficiently in order to derive maximum benefit from its asset base. As regards to financial management, the commission has in place an enhanced financial management system. This budget line covers the operations of the financial management system aimed at enhancing accountability, internal control and financial decision making.

Mr Chairperson, ECZ will continue to inform the public about its roles and functions as well as endeavour to improve its public image to build and sustain public confidence in the commission and electoral process as a whole.

The commission is continuing with its review of the electoral legislation that it commenced in 2006. There is also a provision for the enforcement of electoral laws and petition hearings.

Mr Chairperson, the commission intends to commence continuous voter registration in compliance with the law that was passed in 2001 and to meet stakeholders’ demands and expectations. To this end, the Government has provided K5 billion to enable the commission put in place …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Behind, please, let His Honour be heard.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … the necessary operational logistics to enable them to commence the exercise.

The commission’s advanced election information management system will require continuous maintenance and software upgrading to keep abreast of technological changes.

The commission, as required by law, will need to conduct Parliamentary and Local Government by-elections should vacancies occur for various reasons. The district conflict management committees will be operational in case of by-elections.

As regards to voter education, in compliance with the Electoral Act, the commission will continue to educate and inform the general public on the electoral process and commission activities. A provision has been made for the establishment of the first voter education resource and information centre in Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, I now seek the support of the House in approving the commission’s Budget.

I thank you, Sir

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika (Kawambwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to say a few words. In supporting this vote, I would like to say that the ECZ is an important institution in this country.

Hon. MMD Member: Alangizi.

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, this is an important institution and if it is supported and well funded, will be able to bring credibility to the electoral process in this country. I would like to see a situation in future where the Ruling Party, Opposition parties and, indeed, the Zambian people will be able to attest that ECZ is an independent institution. This is what is happening in other democracies within Africa. The people in these countries are proud to say that the bodies that conduct and supervise elections are independent.

Mr Chairperson, despite ECZ experiencing human errors like any other institution, it should be seen to be addressing its shortcomings.

Mr Chairperson, the money that has been allocated towards continuous voter registration is not enough. I am saying so because last time a lot of eligible voters were left out. Some people in Luapula Province who were supposed to have voted in 2006 were not captured and I am appealing to the Government to immediately release money to this department after we approve this Budget, so that it can go into the country side and capture all the people that are ready to vote in 2011.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much, indeed, for giving me an opportunity to express my views regarding a very important Vote which I fully support.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: I fully support this Vote for one important reason; an electoral body is one of the tenets of democracy. Once a country’s citizens have confidence in an institution like ECZ, firstly, there will be a higher voter turnout. That is the ultimate result of good confidence …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hour.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was talking about the work ECZ is doing.

Mr Chairperson, with the practical funds towards ECZ we shall this evening vote in its favor. It is my desire and wish that the Government will heed my advice.

Sir, an electoral system that has members of the public trusting that it will manage elections satisfactorily prevents unnecessary petitions. Nevertheless, one that has flaws in its implementation or utilisation of resources brings mayhem amongst those that are anarchy minded and we hope this time round …

Hon. Government Member: Give an example.

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not ask him to give examples.

Mr Muyanda: … I am debating constructively, advising and criticising the Government intelligently.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Some people do not concede defeat …

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: … I am not pin pointing a particular person, no. Some people because of good basic fundamental understanding easily accept defeat and the country continues running.

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, there are inherent attributes in some cantankerous mentalities, their culture and upbringing …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You must learn what order means. The use of the word cantankerous in that context is unparliamentary. Please use a better one. May you continue.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, we want public confidence in our electoral system. There are people that believe in arguments by nature even when a fact is straightforward. We would like to appeal to you and ECZ that the voter registration should not be doubted when it comes to election time. We do not want to experience voter apathy because some people believe the system at the moment has more than flaws. They even claim rigging in some situations when there is none at all. It is just that ECZ is not well managed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: How do we inculcate trust in ECZ? Some people are too greedy in this country. They think that they will continue running this country forever and ever, but they will never do it. Their time is over and that door is closed. They will never be where they are dreaming to be because the direction has taken a different turn.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: There are also people in the Southern and North Western Provinces who want to be Presidents, but they must deposit their confidence in the electoral system.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: If your time is over, just come to join us, UPND. We are going to form the next government.

Hon. Government /UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Our President is Hakainde Hichilema, mwana mubotu!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Mwana mubotu is not English. What does that mean?

Mr Muyanda: It is a Tonga way of describing a handsome leader without wrinkles of being ruthless, finished, tired and fatigued in rhetoric which cannot run a government.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Mwana mubotu, Sir that is the description. I thank you on that point and Hakainde is coming whether you like it or not. He is the next President because if you had your turn already, discount yourself out.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Therefore, we ought to have confidence in the electoral system. We want to minimise the doubting Thomases. They should not be wasting public resources going into courts on straightforward matters. If you have lost, you have lost. The only principle which works here for us, UPND, to form the next government is unreserved trust in ECZ.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: We want an electoral system that has no flaws. The flaws we are talking about are voter registration or ballot papers which sometimes go missing or run short or even organised mistakes where you end up having a wrong hon. Member of Parliament in the House because he was voted in through fraudulent means.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: If you have a clean and clear electoral system and the resources that we are going to vote for today are managed by you, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, the next thing you will see will be elections that are perfect in this country. Although total perfection cannot be achieved, you can come to 90 per cent achievement for us to have one cardinal point of winning an election on a clean slate.

Hon. Government/UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to mention one very important point on public education. What is ECZ doing about it? There are some people who can hardly vote. When they enter a ballot box, instead of marking a simple ‘X’ against their candidate of choice, they start drawing their names. That owes to lack of voter education. Voter education is not well carried out by ECZ. There is no reason why in this time and era we can have 30,000 wasted votes, that is proof of ignorance in the electoral system.

We want to have an electoral system that can be trusted and relied upon, one which after an election will see the contenders merely shake hands and say well done to the winner while the loser concedes defeat. That is how a nation should be developing. With this money that we are going to vote for today, we do not want to hear that ECZ has one batch of boxes stuck at the airport. Why should those issues arise? We would like to know, tell us. It is because you are not managing ECZ effectively. Discipline or remove those officers that are spoiling the good electoral process.

Mr Chairperson, with this brief constructive debate, I thank you.

Hon. Government and UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, I rise to support the vote for ECZ for a number of reasons. Firstly, for a change, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel in so far as implementation of the continuous voters’ registration exercise is concerned. The law was put in place a long time ago and with this allocation, it gives us hope that we really want to empower ECZ.

Secondly, Mr Chairperson, I support this vote because of the allocation of K72 million towards the voters’ registration exercise. Hon. Members who spoke earlier mentioned the importance of this exercise. It is necessary because it is the only way we can avoid the increasing number of spoiled papers.

Mr Chairperson, the other reason for supporting this vote is the allocation of money to the enforcement of electoral laws. This House has passed legislation to give the ECZ power to enforce laws and I think time has come for the execution of this particular task since money has been allocated for it. However, in order for this continuous voters’ registration exercise to be successful, it will be important for this House to allocate a lot of money to the Department of National Registration because you cannot be registered as a voter if you do not have a Green National Registration Card (NRC). Therefore, if the Department of National Registration is not given sufficient funds, this exercise will not succeed.

Sir, in order to cultivate the spirit of accepting results, it is important to ensure that ECZ is manned by men and women of credible virtues.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: This is absolutely important and I think this time around we have men and women who have that credibility and I hope we will continue on this route.

Now, it is important for us as Zambians to learn the culture of accepting defeat gracefully…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K.B. Banda, SC: … because there can only be one winner to every election. Once you have lost and you are not satisfied about the elections being conducted freely and fairly, there is still honour in accepting defeat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Once you adopt such an attitude, even the electorates will look at you as an honourable person who can be trusted and favoured with a vote the next time around.

With these few remarks, I wholly support this vote.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I just have …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Some people are screaming. What are you screaming about? There are various factors we take into account in here and one of them is party composition. I started with Hon. Chitika and then Hon. Muyanda. Leave work to us. It is unfortunate if you think you are the only one destined to speak because it will not be so.

The hon. Member for Chongwe continue, please.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. I only have two points to make on this very important vote.

Sir, I want to start by supporting the vote and also to appeal to hon. Members that it is important for ECZ to be funded adequately because there are functions, obviously, that cut across political parties. I am sure that all political parties and citizens alike would like to see an efficient ECZ.

Sir, I am also very happy to see that money for continuous voters’ registration has been provided this year. I think it is important to continue registering especially that we only have two years before the next general elections which are in 2011 and we have at the moment many young people that are 16 years who will be eligible voters at that time. So it is important that we do not disfranchise them by not capturing them. I appeal to hon. Members to assist ECZ by making the young people aware that they shall be eligible and so they should get NRCs. We should not start registering them in our constituencies when it is about election time. When you see election officials registering in a particular province, do not accuse and raise questions like, why are they in Central and not in Northern Province? I think this is the right time for hon. Members to begin mobilising people to get NRCs so that they are ready for the voters’ registration.

Mr Chairperson, you will notice that we registered over 55,000 voters in Chongwe in 2006. I want you to know that it was as a result of my effort as hon. Member of Parliament. I took it upon myself to move from place to place encouraging or assisting the people. In that way, I was also assisting ECZ. The more people registered as voters the better for us, especially that we are now talking about the 50 plus 1 threshold for the president. I think that it will help us if we register a lot of people because we will end up with a president who will be accepted nationally because the numbers would have been high.

The other point, Mr Chairperson, is the issue of by-elections. I have seen that there is a provision of K4 billion for by-elections. That is a lot of money, especially in a year where we have a financial crisis. I think that it would help us if we reduced these by-elections, and obviously there are many methods of reducing them. Firstly, the relevant political parties must try as much as possible to be tolerant…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … so that we reduce expulsions. Nobody is perfect. When you are an hon. Member of Parliament worth your salt, you are bound to make a mistake because you are either active like me or you like to talk all the time. You might say something that might annoy people, but as hon. Members of Parliament, we are not here to sit, we are here to talk and represent our people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I think it is important that political parties avoid unnecessary expulsions because they are just a cost. I also think that there are many methods of disciplining an hon. Member of Parliament and expulsion should be the last resort as it calls for a by-election. I think let us try to avoid this.

The other area where I have seen that we end up with by-elections is the issue of sickness. A number of hon. Members of Parliament get sick from time to time because of either the work load or are involved in car accidents. I think we need as much as possible to reduce this cost of by-elections which are as a result of death by looking after hon. Members of Parliament well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that some of the female hon. Members of Parliament come from very far constituencies say a 1,000 kilometres from Lusaka. They have to drive themselves in the night to get here and you know that our roads are not very good hence the many accidents that occur on them. Is it not possible to consider, for example, including in the conditions of service for hon. Members of Parliament a driver …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am trying to link what you are talking about with the issue we are discussing. It has not come out clearly to me. Can you talk about the ECZ?

You may continue, please.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, this country is vast and some of our hon. Members of Parliament come from far places. Female hon. Members have to get back to their constituencies every Friday. It would help to create some form of employment for our people by providing a driver to each hon. Member of Parliament and not just female hon. Members. This can help to reduce the number of deaths by accidents.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Masebo, please debate the subject at hand, which is ECZ.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance, once again. That suggestion was to avoid by-elections because I have seen the Votes …

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, K5 billion has been allocated for by-elections this year. This is a lot of money that could go towards actualising the President’s theme of poverty reduction. It is important that we create employment and in the process assist the hon. Members of Parliament to minimise deaths through accidents.

Mr Chairperson, there is need to help hon. Members of Parliament to access regular medical checkups. Even to ensure that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Masebo, you can make that point when we come to consider health. You seem to have exhausted your ideas. If you still have any, I will give you the opportunity to debate, but definitely not on health.

Mrs Masebo: There is great need for us to reduce on the number of by-elections. If we can reduce on the number of deaths of hon. Members of Parliament, councilors and all those who are elected, we can reduce the cost on ECZ.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, ECZ installed expensive equipment. Sometimes parties, citizens or, indeed, other stake holders may not have the confidence in the system where results come through the electronic system. I suggest that ECZ holds seminars from time to time with political parties so that they can begin to understand their operations. There are some people who are still very backward about Information and Communications Technology (ICT) and may not appreciate the system adopted. It is necessary that we begin to go towards using ICT and support ECZ in terms of upgrading its system.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Ema MP aya!

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me guide the House. It is not the intention of the Chair to exchange views with the hon. Members of Parliament. I am not even obliged to tell you this, but I will.

It is important for you to know that there are a number of factors considered before an hon. Member can catch the Chair’s eye. Please, do not think that we do not want you to debate. These considerations guide us in deciding who should speak. We take into account, amongst others, Chamber matters and political groupings in the House.

If, for example, ‘Hon. X’ from the PF has spoken, do not expect the Chair to come back to another one from the PF, unless the other groupings have decided not to speak. After my guidance, Dr Machungwa from the PF will speak. When he is through, I will look elsewhere, unless there is nobody who will speak.

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I will try to be brief. I consider ECZ an important Vote and rise to support it.

Mr Chairperson, elections in our country tend to be acrimonious because some people are never willing to accept defeat.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: In some countries, if a person loses more than one election, they give chance to others in the future.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: We must develop that culture among our political parties.

Mr Kambwili: Is this PF?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Machungwa: No, I am speaking. This is not limited to any particular party because there are many presidents who have lost elections more than twice. We should improve on this culture in this country.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Let me come to an issue of extreme importance with regard to the work of ECZ. We passed legislation in this House to help ECZ streamline its work. However, it appears that there is an inherent problem in that legislation. After the 2006 elections, we had situations where wrong people were declared winners because of an arithmetical problem. Even when ECZ proved that, in fact, they declared a wrong person winner, they were not in position to reverse that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, the courts would also run on technical reasons like the lack of somebody’s signature on certain documents and declare the wrong person winner. That cannot be so. That was not the intention of this House when it passed that law. I do not think it is the desire of this country or ECZ to declare winner a person who has not been duly elected.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: We should bring back that law to Parliament for correction. It cannot continue because we are cheating ourselves.

Hon. Member: True!

Dr Machungwa: Sir, continuous registration is important. When I was hon. Minister, we passed a law to provide for continuous registration of voters. Unfortunately, it is over eight years now, and nothing has happened. Of course, it is not justifiable because no one can take the Government to court for not registering certain voters who are disenfranchised in constituencies. We may not be able to do that, but it should be a shame on us, that we are not able to provide the opportunity that our people deserve. It is a human right to vote. Eligible people should be able to contribute in choosing who should be their leader. Denying them because we are not able to register them is not acceptable.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to note, however, that K5 billion has been allocated towards continuous registration, although it is not adequate. Perhaps, even more pleasing, is the fact that when you look under the Department of National Registration, there is almost another K5 billion for mobile registration issuance.

ECZ and the Department of National Registration should work side by side, especially as we go towards elections. In 2006, there was mobile registration of NRCs issued in certain parts of the country and not others. The result was that there were more registered as voters in certain parts of the country than in others. We cannot have that. The same treatment should apply to all our people.

It is extremely important that as we fund ECZ to embark on the continuous registration of voters. The department of NRCs must also be empowered to do their work.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Masebo, please debate the subject at hand, which is ECZ.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance, once again. That suggestion was to avoid by-elections because I have seen the Votes …

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Ema MP aya!

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me guide the House. It is not the intention of the Chair to exchange views with the hon. Members of Parliament. I am not even obliged to tell you this, but I will.

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I will try to be brief. I consider ECZ an important Vote and rise to support it.

Mr Chairperson, elections in our country tend to be acrimonious because some people are never willing to accept defeat.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: In some countries, if a person loses more than one election, they give chance to others in the future.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: We must develop that culture among our political parties.

Mr Kambwili: Is this PF?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: We should bring back that law to Parliament for correction. It cannot continue because we are cheating ourselves.

Hon. Member: True!

It is extremely important that as we fund ECZ to embark on the continuous registration of voters. The department of NRCs must also be empowered to do their work.
Presently, it is not every district that has a National Registration Department Office where NRCs can be issued. We know, especially hon. Members of Parliament from rural areas, that these are not adequate because some districts are so big that it is not possible for people to travel for three days to go and sit at the Boma to get an NRC. In future, we need to decentralise the Department of National Registration to, at least, each constituency. There has to be an office so that as children come of age, especially, in the rural areas, they can easily get an NRC and with the continuous registration of voters, they should be able to vote.

Let me also say something about the delimitation. Based on the studies that were done, it was agreed that a number of constituencies in the country be increased to something like 200. This has not been implemented. The question is, hon. Members through you, Mr Chairperson, are we going to 2011 with 150 constituencies or are we going to extend them to 200 so that some of the constituencies that are bigger than the city of Lusaka, and its surroundings, can be subdivided into two? What are we going to do about that? How can we expedite the issue of delimitation as we move with the NCC work? These are issues that we must be looking at.

Mr Chairperson, we must be forward minded so that we do not waste too much time. This is because ECZ needs time to send out the delimitation mission to go round the country to collect the necessary information to allow them to begin the process. I would like to urge our colleagues to support ECZ. Of course, when they have made a mistake, we should condemn them, but if we cannot develop confidence and faith in this institution, then there will be chaos in the country.

I would like to urge our colleagues in the Government, and particularly the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to ensure that the funds for ECZ and the Department of National Registration are released timely so that the two can work concomitantly and everything moves smoothly.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Ndiye ma doctors aba, not ba Chishimba yayi. [These are the doctors not Dr Chishimba]

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this vote.

Sir, in supporting this vote, allow me to state that over the years, ECZ has been perceived in the most negative manner by citizens. Like others have already said, we must develop confidence in the commission so that it is able to run a transparent election.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: However, in the last seventeen years, ECZ has fallen short of that. I am supporting this Budget with a caveat to it. Over the years, this Commission has been perceived by citizens as not doing a good job.

Mr Mwiimbu: Correct!

Mr Syakalima: It is starts from a perception that goes into the minds of human beings to see whether what they are doing is right or not. If ECZ is not going to paint a picture that is acceptable to the citizenry, we shall continue saying they misbehaved during the elections.

Now, what are consequences of such perceptions? This is not going to be a threat. It is a historical fact.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Everywhere where there have been terrible incidences after the elections, it is the electoral commissions of those countries which have messed up.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: The citizens have become so suspicious about their workings. You all know the consequences of that. We have Kenya as the best example.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Sir, in Kenya, because of the way the electoral commission behaved, more than 1 million people were feared dead or in fact died and more than 600,000 people become homeless. Even if, at the end of the day, they formed a government of national unity, there is still trouble in the outskirts of Kenyan suburbs.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: That is because the citizens have not accepted the manner in which the electoral commission had run the election. The people who have formed a government of national unity are those at top, but they took tension to the ground. It may be easy for you to just tell people to accept their fate of loosing after an election, but their acceptance may not come that easily. Please, let us not just tell people to accept defeat.

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Mr Syakalima: It is not as simple as that. Do not just say things like that.

Mr D. Mwila: Do not force people.

Mr Syakalima: Do not force people to accept defeat. People must only accept when they have seen that you have been transparent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
.

Mr Syakalima: Obviously, because you brought transparent boxes that is where you base your arguments of the elections being free and fair.

Dr Katema: Ebako na Muyanda.

Mr Syakalima: Those elections, in 2006, were far from being free and fair.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: You must accept that. In 2001, the elections were not free, fair and transparent.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: It is in the minds of the people who ignite fire. You will be arguing in here that you were transparent, but do you know what the lesser man is thinking about? Do you know that if you bottle people up that have suffered for long, one day they will erupt? Are you going to stop them?

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Hon. Government Members: Those are threats!

Mr Syakalima: They are not threats, but historical facts.

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair, hon. Member.

Mr Syakalima: There are so many examples that I can give.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Let me just tell you. We are not a country which can just be spared of spared of war in Africa just like that. We are not! We must continuously audit our peace.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: We must continuously audit our peace. We do not want a situation like what is happening in Zimbabwe. Look at where they are now. It was because their electoral commission messed up. It was the electoral commission’s fault! Here, ECZ has made several indications of messing up. I do not think that they must continue behaving the way they have been doing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: We do that because we want peace. I do not want to see my children, who are very young, to start running up and about. When such things happen, it is not us who will suffer. Some of you will takeoff.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: You will leave people in the compounds killing each other. This is what is happening in Kenya. Mr Chairperson, that seed that was planted there has not stopped.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Let me tell you. Unfortunately, even those people who were in the electoral commission in Kenya had to start ducking as well. Those are the things that you must prevent yourselves form, as a country. This is what we must be able to start teaching each other. We must be asking ourselves what the consequences of a poorly run election can be. It is not about you winning an election, but about what many people have to say. It should not be because you hate my forehead, and it is me who has said that, therefore everything that the citizens are say …

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: … is bad. No! I am, particularly, not happy as an individual.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: I think there are several of them including some of you there (Government Members).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: on second thought, had it not just been for the flag, examine your conscious.

On second thought, had it not been you in Government, do you think you would be happy? You just ask your small souls.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Syakalima, address the Chair.

Mr Syakalima: Absolutely.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, do you think ECZ is happy with the way things are going? Of course, we can say they have struggled enough because they had this and that Chairperson, but the Commission is not an individual. It is an institution. It is this institution that the Zambians are saying is not performing very well. Do not just say things because you are in Government. One day, these same Zambians that you think are dull will turn against you and these are the things we ought to prevent as a country. From today onwards, as I take this seat which the people of Siavonga gave me, …

Major-Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: … ECZ must have a facelift. It must start behaving in a manner in which the Zambian citizens can have confidence in it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Otherwise, seriously speaking, you my colleagues know very well …

Mr Chairperson: Order! They know very well. Address the Chair.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, ECZ knows very well that time will come. When I look into the eyes of the Zambians, I can tell that they are not the same. When President Mwanawasa died, I said on the Floor of this House that every institution starting from soldiers, policemen and others mourned the President very well, but ECZ.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mwewa (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this vote, I would like to mention that when we were ratifying the appointment of Mrs Florence Mumba as Chairperson for ECZ, I had indicated that the Commission had failed the Zambian people and that for the first time, we were going to experience a situation where we were going to have a President who was going to rule this country for two terms without winning the election. I did mention that in 2001, the Zambian people knew that it was Anderson Kambela Mazoka who had won the elections. The system ECZ robbed that victory from him.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Mwenya, it is very difficult for the Chair to let you go on like that because you are making a statement of fact. I think there are other ways of putting your debate.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that guidance.

Sir, for the past seventeen to eighteen years, the Zambian people have questioned the performance of ECZ. It is unfortunate that amongst ourselves, people can say that it is not right to petition an election. In 2001, UPND petitioned those elections.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: We petitioned those elections because I was also part of them. At that particular time, UPND could have even gone further than what these other parties have done. PF did not petition at that time. At that particular time, we did not rise to call or insult our colleagues who had decided to petition. We believed that they were right to do so because we felt that the general populous in this country did see that definitely the outcome of those results was questionable.

Sir, in 2006, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is too much noise coming from my left. Can we please listen.

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwenya… we had the same situation where again PF was disadvantaged. The general populous in Zambia again rose and said that it was not right. In 2008, when we had another by-election, we had the same issues coming up. During ratification of Mrs Florence Mumba, I had mentioned that she had a very big task and challenge especially when I looked at her Curriculum Vitae. I stated that if she was not careful, all that was going to be dropped into the drain at ECZ. Today, I do not think she is proud or able to walk with her head high with the outcome of the 2008 elections.

Interruptions

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, I feel concerned that we have allocated K4 billion to by-elections. That is not adequate, especially when we are expecting a mini-general election in this country.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: How?

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, is the speaker on the Floor in order to start bewitching hon. Members of Parliament so that we have by-elections?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member may continue and take that point of order into consideration.

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, we have no intentions of bewitching anyone. It is only that they have bewitched themselves.

Hon. Government Members: Who?

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, we are all Zambians and we would want to have a good system at ECZ. When they conduct elections, all the Zambian people should agree that the elections were free and fair. It has happened in America where everyone knew at the end of the day, because of the way the people responded that under whatever circumstances, Prof. Barak Obama was going to take the day. Fortunately, I was in America and I had an opportunity of mixing with the locals there and I could hear the way they were talking. Here in Zambia, whether the indicators are very clear and pointing to one particular party or President, you will discover that come Election Day, things change.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: We are all Zambians. You should have that care and love for your own country. If you have failed to deliver, allow the Zambian people to pick the people that they feel they can. If those people fail to deliver as well, let the Zambian people remove them and bring in other people. That is what democracy is supposed to be. Clinging to power by rigging and manipulation should be stopped.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, in the Budget, the K9 million which has been allocated to Continuous Voters’ Registration is not adequate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: We want to make sure that the voter registration exercise goes to all corners of the country ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: …so that all the eligible voters are registered. We know what has been happening. It is a very big challenge for ECZ to come out and be autonomous. They should cite and de-link all interference from the Government. We know that they have been interfering with them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: We also know that you have been buying some of these people.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwenya: We want them to be independent.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mwenya, this is why presiding officers always advise that you address the Chair. There you are, and we know that you read about inviting points of order from the other side. If you had addressed me, they would not bother about the point of order. Can you be decent to do what I am advising.

You may continue.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Sir, the biggest challenge that we have, as I earlier alluded to is that ECZ has got a big task before them. We are expecting that for once, if possible, they put their house in order. We want them to de-link themselves from interference from the Government. We know how much interference has been going into the commission. We want them, for once, to stand and give the Zambian people a free and fair election, where every Zambian will accept the results.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mwenya: We do not want this situation where we are right now where people force themselves to be in power by using under-hand methods.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, this should not be allowed. We would like to see a situation where when a president is being inaugurated, he walks freely and not rushed. We do not want a situation where the results are announced the night before the inauguration follows the next day. We want it done like in America where …

Interruptions

Mr Mwenya: …a president elect can wait freely for a month for the inauguration. We should be able to plan and inaugurate our president at our own time. These are the challenges that we have as a nation.

Mr Mulyata: Just sit sown!

Mr Mwenya: We want to enhance democracy in this country. We want to see democracy that is accepted by the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Member: Ebaume aba [These are the men] !

Mr Mwenya: The democracy that we are experiencing now is far from it. This is total pretence. We need to move away from it.

Mr Mulyata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulyata: Mr Chairperson, is that hon. Member of Parliament in order to start saying what the people of Zambia want when in actual fact he knows very well that the Zambian people in almost all the provinces voted for MMD? Is he in order to start saying what the people want when he knows very well what the people want? I need your serious ruling on this matter because Kitwe and Lusaka are not Zambia.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mulyata: When we talk about Zambia, we should consider people in far-flung areas. Is he in order to refer to the people in the Lusaka constituency as the people of Zambia?

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, you have adequately debated your point of order.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Mwenya: I still insist that we need to respect the will of the Zambian people as that is very cardinal. If we went with some of the hon. Members of Parliament on your right to their respective constituencies and stood with them on the platform, they can never get any support at all.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: That much I can assure you. We know what the Zambian people have been saying on the ground.

Mr Chairperson, it remains a very big challenge to ECZ to take up this challenge. For once, as we are focusing on the forthcoming by-elections and the 2011 Election, we want a very big change. We want to have a total change for us to see free and fair elections.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this vote is very popular and it has been well supported.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Except for a few innuendos which we will ignore.

Mr Chairperson, we shall continue to improve on the electoral process.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It is because of the credible electoral process which we have in this country that we have legitimately elected hon. Members of Parliament in this House.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, unfortunately, there is a tendency in this country to claim that the elections have been rigged when some of our colleagues lose. When they win, they start celebrating and in that instance the elections are free and fair.

For example, some of the parties have strongholds where they always win. One wonders whether there is rigging in those areas or not. Generally, we have a very fair electoral process in this country.

Mr Lundwe: Muntanga!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Some hon. Members have emphasised on the need to do continuous registration of voters. This is an expensive exercise to start, but to show commitment we have allocated some money. As I have stated in my policy statement, there are a number of reforms which we have been undertaken from 2006 to date. We have transparent ballot boxes and indeed, the elections are transparent, free and fair.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We are also reviewing legislation, not only subordinate legislation in elections, but also the supreme law of the land through NCC.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Let us all support the Constitutional review process because a greater chunk of that is on the electoral reforms. Some of the things which have been talked about, for those that are not on the NCC can easily be raised there. Therefore, you are welcome to come to the NCC.

Mr Chairperson, I will end there. I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 06 – (Public Service Commission – Office of the President – K4,113,860,750).{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present the 2009 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission.

The Public Service Commission is established under Section 7 (a) of the Service Commissions Act No. 24 of 1991 and the functions of the Public Service Commission are to:

(a) make regulations for the appointment including the power to confirm appointments of persons, to any office with respect to which it is charged with responsibility under the Act;

(b) make promotions to such offices;

(d) termination of appointments and the removal of such persons from office;

(e) prescribe the qualification for appointment or promotion to any post and such training courses as shall be considered for promoting or maintaining efficiency;

(f) sanction the transfer or secondment of any person holding any such office;

(g) to act as an appellate body of the Public Service; and

(h) to provide advise to the President on policies and procedures for employment and for the conduct and discipline of officers in the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, in 2008, the Commission had an approved budget of K3,509,530,177 to cater for eight programmes.

During the year, the Commission was able to dispose off more than 4,000 outstanding cases. This year, more cases will be disposed of. However, given the world economic recession and its adverse effects on Zambia’s economy, the Commission has attempted to scale down on its programmes during the 2009 financial year.

Mr Chairperson, following the completion of the restructuring of the Commission in 2008 that saw its establishment expanding from 40 to 47 per cent and upgrading of several positions, the need for financial resources for the Commission’s operations cannot be over emphasised.

The 2009 programmes and activities set out in this budget framework paper are aimed at enabling the Commission to carry out its mandate in an effective and efficient manner given the limited financial resources.

Mr Chairperson, I now have the honour to present for the year 2009 a budget request for the Commission amounting to K4,113,860,750 as compared to the year 2008 at K3,509,530,177.

The increase is due to the restructuring of the Commission which has resulted in the increase in the personal emoluments vote from K1,203,528,203 to K1,830,913,461.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, I wish to register a few observations.

The Public Service Commission is cardinal to discipline and come up with a proper Civil Service. However, the problem is that the it does not act …

Major Chibamba: Moribund!

Mr Muntanga: … on erring officers in the Civil Service. The Civil Service is supposed to deliver service to the people, but has chosen to hide under politicians. Everything that is done is related to a politician. In the long run, the people that are taking the blame for various activities are the politicians and yet the people who are working are the civil servants. They are the people who are supposed to deliver services.

VOTE 06 – (Public Service Commission – Office of the President – K4,113,860,750).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present the 2009 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission.

The Public Service Commission is established under Section 7 (a) of the Service Commissions Act No. 24 of 1991 and the functions of the Public Service Commission are to:

(i) make regulations for the appointment including the power to confirm appointments of persons, to any office with respect to which it is charged with responsibility under the Act;

(j) make promotions to such offices;

(k) exercise disciplinary control of persons holding or acting in such offices;

(l) termination of appointments and the removal of such persons from office;

(m) prescribe the qualification for appointment or promotion to any post and such training courses as shall be considered for promoting or maintaining efficiency;

(n) sanction the transfer or secondment of any person holding any such office;

(o) to act as an appellate body of the Public Service; and

(p) to provide advise to the President on policies and procedures for employment and for the conduct and discipline of officers in the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, in 2008, the Commission had an approved budget of K3,509,530,177 to cater for eight programmes.

Mr Chairperson, I now have the honour to present for the year 2009 a budget request for the Commission amounting to K4,113,860,750 as compared to the year 2008 at K3,509,530,177.

The increase is due to the restructuring of the Commission which has resulted in the increase in the personal emoluments vote from K1,203,528,203 to K1,830,913,461.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, I wish to register a few observations.

The Public Service Commission is cardinal to discipline and come up with a proper Civil Service. However, the problem is that the it does not act …

Major Chibamba: Moribund!

What is the PS doing and who is the Controlling Officer? What is this commission doing? We have heard too many of reorganisations that you want to change this and that even when someone does not do a good job. Can we have a civil service that can be efficient and that will have officers who are going to be proud to do their job.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Muntanga: Someone who should be happy to be a civil servant.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: The job for this commission is to see to it that the people who are employed in civil service are qualified.

Hon. Opposition Member: Party cadres.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, you can employ party cadres, but please employ the ones that are qualified.

Mr Kambwili: Zoona.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, do not appoint a PS of a grade 7 level. Someone in the public service commission should be able to advise the appointing authority that, this is wrong and that is right. I remember the late President, May His Soul Rest in Peace, when he appointed a Minister and he realised that there was a mistake he reversed immediately.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Hon. Opposition Member: There is nothing wrong.

Mr Muntanga: Even the first President did the same. Dr Kaunda used to say that I have been misinformed. So, on this one I reverse. You should have that attitude to reverse if you make a mistake. Do not carry forward because like that you are destroying the civil service.

Hon. Government Members smiling.

Mr Muntanga: You are laughing and smiling.

The Deputy Chairman: They are destroying, …

Mr Muntanga: They are destroying, Mr Chairman.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairman: … can you address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: We have cases where you say qualifications ‘a very good attendant to MMD.’

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Yes, I am saying MMD because it can be UPND or PF, but at the moment, you are in Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: You have been in Government for seventeen years. Now, the ball is in your court. So do not even argue. We are asking you to do a good job. We do not want to cover the Government which is very bad when we are going to be in power ourselves. We want to ensure that by the time we come in power, we find a clean civil service.

Major Chizhyuka: That one is coming.

Mr Muntanga: The issue of questioning, you will see when it comes to you. There is somebody who always argues to say we mean well here. Three quarters are out.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Muntanga: You must accept that what we are talking about is a civil service. You wait until you take folk of what you are doing in your own ministries. They are some hon. Ministers who are praised for doing well, but may be you find them on top of the job because there is a PS to assist them. Some PSs are at the mercy of Ministers and vice versa

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes it is correct.

Mr Muntanga: If you are given a PS like the ones that were appointed recently …

Mr Matongo: Like Luapula and Lusaka.

Mr Muntanga: I am sorry. Who does not know the movements of files and that they need to file documents to keep record.

Vice-President, at the moment, you are doing well by indicating your work, but this doing well means you are in trouble. This is because everyone wants to check what you are doing.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Muntanga.

Mr Muntanga: They are doing well through you, Mr Chairman.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Exactly, that is what I want, debate through me.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, by doing so they will be checked on how they are able to do so. As the situation stands now, we are totally dissatisfied. Why is it that in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives with highly qualified personnel there are terrible problems. Why are we having problems everywhere you have taken qualified people like in the Ministry of Health where we have a PS who is a doctor and so on? Why are we having problems you doctors there?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, through you, someone can be a doctor, but if they never worked in the civil service he cannot perform well. This is because they have not done the civil servant course before joining the civil service. Actually, you need to be trained and tested as to whether you can be a civil servant. The Public Service Commission is not doing their job.

Mr Matongo: General orders.

Mr Muntanga: The officers in this commission do not know the general orders and financial regulations. That is why people are running around with briefcases and just withdrawing money anyhow. There are no general orders, financial regulations, and so forth.

When The Vice-President comes to make his contributions, he should confirm that the party cadres that are appointed to various positions in Government are actually not qualified. If he does not, we will give him names. We were told that even to be a District Commissioner, one should have a first degree. However, this does not seem to be applying now. The Government seems to have decided to concentrate on partisan politics …

Mr Matongo: Where is the Mwanawasa legacy?

Mr Muntanga: … we need to see seriousness on its part. Where has the legacy of the late President Mwanawasa gone? All of you, through you Mr Chairperson …

The Deputy Chairperson: You are supposed to say “all of them” and not “all of you”.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, all of them, where have they taken that legacy? I have seen some people getting annoyed if a hon. Minister is arrested, claiming that the legacy of President Mwanawasa is just about arresting ministers. I doubt of we are going to have any hon. Minister arrested this time around.

Hon. PF Member: Dora.

Mr Muntanga: Going by some of the sentiments that I have heard, I do not think this will happen. What has happened to the precedent set by the late President? The Vice-President should start showing the people that are smiling at him that the work of the Government is serious business. We should not wait to prove an allegation. We first suspend the person that has been accused.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Hon. Ministers can only change when they know that action will be taken against those that error.

Mr Matongo: Fire them.

Mr Muntanga: Yes. When it concerns them, they are saying, “Aah!”. When I will be seating on the other side and they come here to the left side, they will like what I am saying.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: All I am saying is that the PSC should instill discipline in public servants. We should do away with a disciplinary code that allows cases to drag on for 10 years after someone has made a mistake.

Mr Matongo: It only takes The Post to get to the bottom of things.

Mr Muntanga: Everyone is worried about The Post because it appears it is the one that releases information. Why should we allow that?

Mr Kakoma: They are at work.

Mr Muntanga: Let us act fast. The PSC should start doing its job. If it waits too long and we come and take over Government, we shall dissolve it or employ people to run it that know the job.

Mr Chairperson, you tell them that they should …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is not me to tell them. Address them through me.

You may, continue.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I agree and maybe through you they will understand. I want it known that the money we are approving here should be for the good of the Zambian people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We mean well and therefore, the Government should work. Otherwise we shall demand that one budget line or certain Votes be cancelled so that some people who are not doing their work can lose jobs and just go sit at home.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The civil or public service is at the centre of the governance of this nation. Without a proper public service, we cannot have democracy or a successful Government.

Mr Chairperson, as we consider the Vote of the PSC, we should ask ourselves what we have done to our Civil Service to make it so malfunctional. Maybe I should give a little bit of history. In the First Republic, during the Kaunda era, many mistakes may have been committed.

However, one good thing they did was to protect the Civil Service by letting it remain independent. When there was need to reward political patronage they created separate positions outside the Civil Service. This led to the creation of positions such governor, provincial political secretary, member of the central committee and the like.

Mr Sichilima interjected.

Mr Milupi: However, in as far as the Civil Service was concerned, by and large, inspite of the fact that at that time, we had very limited trained human resource, it remained professional. The term Permanent Secretary was highly regarded. People came through the ranks to the position of Permanent Secretary.

Mr Chairperson, let me remind you that the British have a term for the Civil Service, they call it bureaucracy. In many instances, this sounds like a terrible term, but it is exactly what defines the Civil Service. The word bureaucracy means every level of the organisation reporting to the other and the following of laid down procedures. That is what holds the Civil Service together.

Mr Chairperson, seventeen years ago, as a country, we decided to begin to interfere with the very structures of the Civil Service. After the 1991 tripartite elections, a lot of lecturers from the University of Zambia and other places were given top positions in the Civil Service even though they were not schooled on the very essence of this arm of government. This resulted into a lot of important procedures that were important to the smooth running of the Civil Service being either ignored or totally being disregarded.

Mr Chairperson, I asked one of the few new permanent secretaries on how he hoped to use the financial regulations in the Civil Service whenever engaging in any financial transactions. To my surprise, he said that he had not seen the current financial regulations and yet these are somewhat like a Bible to the Civil Service in terms of financial controls. I have evidence to this.

Chairperson, how the Civil Service performs is determined by what we the society regard its functions to be. Let us not kid ourselves, if we take cadres into the Civil Service, we shall reap the rewards that come with taking such a step. If we appoint unqualified and inexperienced people to high positions in the Civil Service, we should not expect them to perform properly for two reasons. The first one is that these people are incapable of understanding the very fundamentals of the Civil Service and the second reason is that such persons will not command the loyalty and respect of those that have invested their dedication in the public service from a very early age but have not risen through the ranks. Those hard working civil servants start feeling frustrated when you bring people with no proper track record to lead them and this will in turn make them lose the morale to discharge their duties diligently.

Mr Chairperson, in our Civil Service nowadays from the position of Director downwards, there is demoralisation because they have lost hope of being Permanent Secretaries. They have become used to the fact that the position of Permanent Secretary is now reserved for cadres. It is unfortunate that we as a society now no longer have institutions that we can respect and expect to be non-partisan. The situation makes me question the continued existence of the Public Service Commission (PSC). What are they doing? Recently we had a lot of people with questionable qualifications joining the Civil Service. How do we expect them to perform?

Let us look at the performance of the Civil Service in more detail. The information I am sharing with you is as a result of my many years of experience in the Civil Service.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
__________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 20th February, 2009

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