DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 26th February, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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RULING BY MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR M. L. MWENYA, MP

Madam Speaker: The House will recall that on Wednesday, 25th February, 2009, when the House was considering Question number 154 by the hon. Member for Lukulu East Parliamentary Constituency, Mr B. Imenda, MP, the hon. Member for Nkana Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Musenge Laban Mwenya, MP, raised the following point of order.

“Madam Speaker, as you are aware, I am a very humble and cool Parliamentarian and I rarely rise on points of order.  However, I rise on a very special point of order which hinges on Government procedures and practices which compel this House to exercise its oversight functions over the Executive. 

“Madam Speaker, the House and the nation at large, is aware that the Government of the Republic of Zambia has been over hanged by both local and external debt over the last ten years. At the end of 2007, Zambia’s domestic debt stood at about K8.8 billion. This debt was due to the Pension Fund and suppliers of goods and services.

“Madam Speaker, according to the Budget Speech presented to this House on 25th January, 2008, by the then hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Peter Ng’andu Magande, the Government awarded suppliers K370 billion. During 2008, more goods and services were procured by the Government on credit and the current hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is yet to inform the House the current state of our domestic debt.

“Over the years, hon. Members of this House have been petitioned by suppliers of goods and services, who have not been paid their dues as well as pensioners whose pension benefits have remained unpaid due to the Government’s inability to meet its local financial obligations.

“Madam Speaker, the number of pensioners who have since gone to their early graves without having received their dues is sadly escalating on a daily basis. The number of businesses that have wound up due to liquidity problems arising from the Government’s failure to pay their debt is also large. The number of children who have had their education terminated as a result of their parent’s businesses being forced into liquidation by the Government’s inability to pay their debt is also unbearable.

“Madam Speaker, the numerous representations made by the hon. Members of this august House on behalf of the pensioners and suppliers, have gone unanswered. 

“In view of the above, is the Leader of Government Business in this House, His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, in order not to have informed this House that suppliers to be paid ought to be recommended by the Deputy National Secretary of the MMD, as reported in The Post Newspaper No. 4513 of Tuesday, 24th February, 2009, in a story headlined MMD asks Government to Pay K1billion to its Supporters, which reported in short, and I quote:

‘The MMD has requested the Government to pay over K1 billion to food suppliers that have offered financially to support the Ruling Party’.

“Madam Speaker, on page 4 of the same newspaper, the original correspondence between Mr Godfrey J. Kaande, the Deputy National Secretary of the MMD and the then Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Home Affairs, Madam Susan Sikaneta,  has been highlighted and clearly indicating approval of this request.

“Madam Speaker, further, I make reference to the Zambia Daily Mail No. 48 Volume 13, of Wednesday 25th February, 2009, under the headline Nothing Wrong with Paying Party Members, says MMD, in which Mr Jeff Kaande is reported as having justified his instructions to the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Home Affairs to pay certain companies because they belonged to members of the MMD, by stating as follows, and I wish to quote page 2 of the Zambia Daily Mail of Wednesday, 25th February, 2009 that says:

‘MMD Deputy National Secretary, Jeff Kaande, says there nothing wrong with him asking the Government to pay party members who are owed money for the goods and services they have supplied. Mr Kaande said it was his duty as Deputy National Secretary to ensure that his members were comfortable. “I am the link between party members and the Government,” he said.’

“Madam Speaker, the Government’s procurement and payment procedures are in accordance with the provisions of the Public Procurement Act and the Financial Regulations, both of which do not include political party leaders in the decisions of Government officials on which supplier to buy from or indeed which supplier to pay. As a Member of Parliament for a party that has a large number of pensioners and suppliers who have been waiting on long queues to be paid their dues by this Government, I appeal to you, Madam Speaker, to guide whether the Government here, represented by His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, is in order to have developed a clandestine payment procedure without bringing forth necessary amendments for the consideration of this House.

“Madam Speaker, in keeping with my pledge to raise matters that affect the underprivileged in our society, I am duty bound to seek your ruling on this matter, which borders on the infringement of the rights of our citizens on the basis of political affiliation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.”

In my immediate remarks, I stated as follows:

“The Chair has listened to a number of things read from the newspapers and the hon. Member has laid the newspapers on the Table.

“The guidance for now from the Chair is that the allegations made from the newspapers may need a little more study by the Chair, if any ruling has to be made. I have not asked anybody on the Executive, but there is need for a little more study by the Chair before a ruling can be made.” 

Hon. Members, I have now studied the Point of Order raised by Mr Musenge Mwenya, MP, and the reports in the newspapers on the subject and the following is my ruling.

Hon. Members, I wish to guide the House that the Government of the Republic of Zambia is made up of three organs, namely the Legislature, Executive and the Judiciary. Each organ of Government functions in accordance with its mandate as provided under the Republican Constitution. In this regard the House may wish to note that:

(a) the hon. Member for Kanyama Parliamentary Constituency, Lieutenant Colonel  Gerry Chanda, MP has already formerly lodged a complaint on the same matter with the Acting Inspector-General of Police, who has the Constitutional mandate to deal the case; and

(b) the matter has been referred to the Anti-Corruption Commission by Transparency International-Zambia (TIZ) for its investigation.

The House will, therefore, not interfere with the Constitutional mandate of these investigative agencies and will, therefore, await the outcome of the investigations.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS

BOOK STOCKS FOR MANSA PUBLIC LIBRARY

158. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Education when the Mansa Public Library last received new stocks of books and how many they were, subject by subject.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, Mansa public Library last received new stocks of books and magazines on 14th January, 2009.

Mr Shakafuswa entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Minister continue, please.

Mr Sinyinda: The items were donated by Episcopal Zambia as follows:

Books                                  Quantity

 Education                               1

 Civic education                      15
 
 Community development         3 
 
 Community health                    3

Total                                        22

 

Title – Magazine             Quantity

 Now Yorker                       9
 
 News Week                       1

 Gender                               1

 Others                                7

Total                                   18

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, since we are trying to inculcate a culture of reading and research in our children, are there plans by the ministry to extend library facilities to numerous basic schools.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, the ministry is aware of the importance of libraries. Indeed, research permitting; we have plans to expand the provision of library services. We are not only expanding the facilities in terms of the traditional book provision, but are also entering into the modernisation of libraries through the provision of electronic libraries.

Madam Speaker, at the moment, there are a number of schools that have been provided with DSTV facilities in partnership with Multi-Choice, and are able to access electronic materials. In addition, we are in the process of procuring computers. Last year, we procured 2000 computers which we have distributed to various schools in different parts of our country. We are doing this to promote access to electronic materials through internet so that library services can be provided both in the form of books and in electronic form. Therefore, we have plans to modernise the provision of library services in our education system.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, providing a facility such as the electronic system the hon. Minister has referred to has its own challenges, especially in rural areas such as Luapula. When is the ministry going to engage the people who provide this facility extend it to Luapula Province and provide training in it?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, this is a continuous process which we are engaged in with our partners.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ESTABLISHMENT OF DONGWE RESETTLEMENT SCHEME IN LUKULU

159. Mr Imenda (Lukulu east) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice what had caused the delay in establishing Dongwe Resettlement Scheme in Lukulu East Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Chilembo): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that although there might appear to be a delay in establishing this scheme, the Department of Resettlement was in fact, preparing the necessary scheme layout plan as well as the implementation plan.

Following the completion of these plans in 2008, the department received some funds to commence the phased implementation of the scheme establishment.

With these funds, the Department of Resettlement has undertaken the following activities:

(a)  demarcation of eighty-eight plots, ranging from twenty to fifty hectares. Interviews for the allocation of these plots will be held in April, 2009 and offers will be issued to successful applicants in May, 2009; and

(b)  fifty kilometre road network has been established.

Madam Speaker, additionally, resources are required to speed up settlement and provision of infrastructure in the scheme. The House may wish to know that this year:

(i) K100 million has been provided for the demarcation of an additional eighty plots;

(ii) K80 million has been provided for opening up an additional 100 kilometres of access roads; and

(iii) a further twenty boreholes have been provided for by the Department of Water Affairs under the World Bank funding.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

CONSTRUCTION OF LOCAL COURT BUILDINGS IN LUAMPA

160. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Vice-President and Minster of Justice when the ministry would construct local court buildings at the following places in Luampa Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Naliele;

(ii) Mulwa;

(iii) Luampa; and

(iv) Likupekupe.

Mr Chilembo: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the local court buildings at Naliele, Mulwa, Luampa and Likupekupe in Luampa Parliamentary Constituency will be constructed once funds are made available for this purpose. However, the local court buildings at the above places have been included in the construction programme for 2008 to 2011

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, the Judiciary is one of the major contributors to the Treasury and ultimately, receives appropriation in aid. Is it not possible for the Judiciary to use part of the appropriation in aid to construct local courts in those areas?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, Sc.): Madam Speaker, the money which is raised by the Judiciary through fines is not used for that purpose. In any case, it is not enough. Usually, we budget specifically for local court buildings. If you go through the budget lines every year, you will see that we allocate money to various parts of Zambia for the construction of such courts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice what the qualifications for local court justices are.

Madam Deputy Speaker: That has gone into something else. We are on construction of local courts.
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MOTION

WAYS AND MEANS

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolved into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply.

I am a bearer of a message from His Excellency the President recommending that the five motions, which I now lay on the Table, be proceeded with in this House.

Madam, as a result of the budget which I presented to this House on 30th January, 2009, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures which I will outline in the Committee.

Madam, I wish to thank the House for the motion.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

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COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

INCOME TAX

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

(a) increase the tax free income threshold for individuals from seven million, two hundred thousand kwacha per annum to eight million, four hundred thousand kwacha per annum;

(b) increase the exempt portion of terminal benefits from twenty million kwacha to twenty-five million kwacha;

(c) increase the person with disability tax credit from six hundred thousand kwacha per annum to nine hundred thousand kwacha per annum;

(d) increase the advance income tax rate from the three per centum to six per centum;

(e) provide for the taxation of qualifying gratuity at a flat rate of twenty five per centum above the exempt income threshold;

(f) increase the allowable pension contribution from one million, six hundred and twenty thousand kwacha to one million, eight hundred and sixty thousand kwacha;

(g) increase the period for carry forward of losses for hydro and thermo power generation from five years to ten years;

(h) provide for deduction of donations made to public institutions;

(i) classify hedging income arising from mining operations as part of mining income;

(j) abolish windfall tax;

(k) provide for the increase in the capital allowance rate for persons carrying on mining operations; and

(l) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill give effect to this, be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Address on 30th January, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, I have been advised to thank the hon. Members for their thunderous support.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to:

(a) reduce excise duty on heavy fuel oils;

(b) reduce duty on major capital goods;

(c) revise the rates of customs, export and excise duty payable on certain goods; and

(d) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to introduce changes  that I announced in my budget speech on 30th January, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, I thank all hon. Members once again for the support

Question put and agreed to.

VALUE ADDED TAX

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to:

(a) provide for the requirement for registered suppliers to maintain business records in English and extend the prescribed period in which to preserve such records to six years;

(b) provide for the determination of the minimum taxable values for specified goods;

(c) introduce the requirement for suppliers or manufacturers of specified goods on the minimum taxable value scheme to submit a schedule of recommended retail selling prices by product category;

(d) introduce a Third Schedule in respect of specified goods on the minimum taxable scheme; and

(e) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced, accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my budget speech on 30th January, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, once again I thank all hon. Members for the support.

Question put and agreed to.

PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act so as to:

(a) ensure that valuation of shares is at arms’ length; and

(b) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my budget speech on 30th January, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, I thank all hon. Members for the support.

Question put and agreed to.

ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY

Dr Musokotwane: I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Zambia Development Agency Act so as to:

(a) provide for the declaration of industrial parks; and

(b) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the support.

Question put and agreed to.

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HOUSE RESUMED

[Madam Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Resolutions reported.

Reports adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Madam Deputy Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

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BILLS

FIRST READINGS

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit the report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 19th March, 2009.

Hon. Members, who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Customs and Excise Act.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The first Act is not necessary.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!
The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 19th March, 2009.

Hon. Members, who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 19th March, 2009.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE PROPERTY TRANSER TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2009

Dr. Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 19th March, 2009.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (AMENEMENT) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 19th March, 2009.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.
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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTES 11 and 15 ─ (Zambia Police ─ Ministry of Home Affairs ─ K446,341,234,366 and Ministry of Home Affairs ─ K188,473,886,609).

(Consideration resumed)

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended yesterday, I was about to state, like I stated during debate on the budget itself, that Shakespeare once said, “The world is but like a stage. We will play our beat and exit while others come.”

In this regard, I would like to welcome our colleagues who have joined the back bench.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: It is normal in this House and in politics for others to end up in the famous gonakuzingwa, but I am sure they will continue to participate and contribute even from that area.

Mr Chairman, yesterday I stated that it is important to allow our investigative agencies, the Police, the Drug Enforcement Commission, Immigration and others to carry out their work professionally and independently.

We cannot allow a culture of lawlessness where some people are too big to be investigated and they want to choose particular organisations to investigate them when they commit a crime.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: If we allow that, then this Government and this country is gone. Nobody should be above the law. We look forward to investigations of anybody found wanting. We know that when ministers have erred, tribunals have been called, but when some people err, they say, “No, I want an organisation of my choice to investigate.”  That is totally unacceptable. Let us make that very clear.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: I wish to call upon the law enforcement agencies to do all they can in this regard.

Let me address the Zambia Police with regard to what happens on the roads. Hon. Minister, there is a culture of lawlessness on the roads. Let me give an example of what happens on a famous road in Lusaka called Lumumba Road that is between the City Market and Mumbwa Road. As you all know, the road is a dual carriageway. At certain times of the day, you find that mini bus drivers move out of the station and block the road. They load passengers along the road.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am sorry to curtail the debate. The reason I thought I should is that the wall clocks are not working. Therefore, you should be aware that you will be timed from here.

You may continue, please.

Dr Machungwa: I thought I still had eight minutes.

Mr Chairman the mini bus drivers block one of the lanes and start loading the buses in full view of the police. Apparently, I use that road very often and almost all the time, accidents occur because of big trucks that use that road and you wonder what the police are doing. If you drive along Mumbwa Road, you will find that taxis and mini buses stopping anywhere even where there are no bus stops to pick up passengers and the police see these things.

In some places, you will find building blocks, sand and crushed stones, probably about thirty centimetres away from the road. In case of an emergency or accident, a vehicle cannot move anywhere because the road is blocked all the way. Why are law enforcement agencies not doing something about this? According to the psychology of policing, if a crime is left uncorrected and the perpetrators get away with it, they will think it is normal and it becomes very difficult to stop them.

I would like to ask both the hon. Minister and the Zambia Police to do something about this. If not we will become a country of lawlessness.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about something that is very important in policing and immigration. There have been plans for a long time to establish a police air wing; a unit where the Zambia Police would have choppers for them to follow up criminals. At one time, when I served in that ministry, choppers …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, consult quietly.

You may continue, please.

Dr Machungwa: … were sent here for demonstration purposes. We flew in them to see how easy it would be for the police to follow up criminals. Unfortunately, I do not know what transpired thereafter. Maybe the hon. Minister, when he winds up debate, can tell us whether that plan has been abandoned, but it is important that the police are empower.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: The hon. Minister himself was Permanent Secretary in that ministry at the time, so he is aware. As regards the Police Surveillance Unit, I wonder why our police cannot think of putting up a few cameras in selected crime prone areas and in areas where motorists over speed. A few surveillance cameras can be mounted on an experimental basis and see how they will help us in reducing crime or monitor the criminals and those who do not want to obey the law. We believe this is important. I appreciate that these are quite expensive gadgets, but if we acquired some, we would go a long way in combating crime. We should be moving in that direction.

Mr Chairman, let me also talk about something that the Government and all of us ought to do to ensure the well-being of our people. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, yesterday, talked about creating a mentality where we can support our economy and the kwacha. However, if the Government acts in a manner that tends to increase inflation in the country, this is unacceptable.

 In this regard, I wish to come to the issue of the cost of the new passport. I do not see much justification in raising the cost of a passport from K70,000 to K300,000 which is over four times the cost. I appreciate that the ministry has just built a new building for printing passports, but that is a capital item. You can spread it over the years. It is not, in my view, prudent to raise the cost of a passport so much. This is an essential document for all our people and I think the hon. Minister and the Government that listens very much will look into this matter. It is important that our people are allowed to travel when they want to. The issue that was mentioned by the former Minister of Finance and National Planning that those who travel have a lot of money does not arise because even the poor may want to travel to neighbouring countries at one time. I do not think it is prudent that we should maintain that cost.

Coming to the Department of Immigration, I am happy that more officers will be recruited because our borders are rather porous. We need more officers to carry out their work professionally. Otherwise, I fully support the vote and I would like to urge the ministry, the police and law investigative agencies not to be discriminatory. Let them follow anybody regardless of where they are or whatever they have done. Let them be investigated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, in debating this vote, allow me to raise a moral issue. The moral issue here is that - and I will eventually ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for his indulgence over his vote- I find it extremely difficult, at the moment, to support this vote and I will explain why.

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me commend you, at least, so that everybody can learn from the way you are debating. That is precisely what the Chair wants; for hon. Minister to be addressed by title and not as ‘you’.

I am commending you for this. Continue, please,

Mr Syakalima: The moral issue here is that we want the hon. Minister to assure this House that the money that we are appropriating for his ministry shall not end up in abuse, misappropriation or have a corrupt hand in it.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, we shall be found wanting if we appropriate moneys for the Ministry of Home Affairs every year and the Auditor-General, year in and year out, indicts the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Sir, I have with me a copy of the 2005/2006 Auditor-General’s Report which has been colourfully written. The recent reports that there has been corruption in the Ministry of Home Affairs involving party cadres make me fear, if there is no assurance from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that this is a thing of the past. I say so because looking at the Auditor-General’s Reports on the Ministry of Home Affairs that passed through this House, and I want to link the current situation and what happened last year to a Tonga saying that goes, inywe nomwaakulimide kale ngakweeleba, meaning that if you were once bitten by a dog, you must know how to dodge it the next time. The Ministry of Home Affairs has been bitten several times in that moneys are appropriated properly, but when it is time to expend them, there is an extreme behaviour by the people who handle the money. Sometimes an invisible hand asks the accountant to pay or over invoice. The recent events that we know of cannot go without comment. Otherwise, it would be morally wrong for me to approve this budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs. An amount of K2,140,000,000 was unaccounted for in the Ministry of Home Affairs. From December, 2004 to 2006, an amount of K855 million was misappropriated. In November, 2005 amounts totalling to US$169,785, £185 and US$83 million were misappropriated. The person who was collecting this money ran away to the United States of America.

Sir, when the people who handle money in the Ministry of Home Affairs are directed by politicians to pay or over invoice, they also want to be paid their part. This is what is happening. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs is a very decent man and I feel very sad that I have to say this when he is at this ministry. However, I have no choice. He is surrounded by indecency and that is why I am asking for his indulgence so that he explains why there is a cloud hovering around this ministry. I appreciate that there was a ruling on a point of order yesterday with regard to the same issue and that it has been reported to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and Inspector-General of Police respectively. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs will do well to explain to the House the truth because we want to know it. It is not contempt of court to report for the ACC or Inspector-General of Police. We need explanations in this House. If he does not explain to the House, I will find it very difficult to pass this vote and I will ask for his indulgence to defer the vote.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: He is a decent man. If he explains to the House, then we will be able to determine whether the action he will have to take on the issue of Mr Jeff Kaande and other issues are correct or not. The same issue has been appearing in the Auditor-General’s reports continuously. It was in the report for 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 and the issue relating to Mr Jeff Kaande came up last year. This is 2009. It is over six years in a row and unfortunately enough, we rejected to increase the amounts for the Auditor-General. These are moral issues. Who is going to police the amounts that we are about to appropriate now if the hon. Minister of Home Affairs does not assure us that the money is in safe hands? I appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to defer this vote until an explanation is made.

Sir, somebody admitted, today, that this is what was being done. He did not know that they were over invoicing. In fact, we have read about the issue of over invoicing several times in the Auditor-General’s reports. Little did we know that the companies were for the people in the Ruling Party. This only relates to the Ministry of Home Affairs and it reminds me why, from 2001 to 2005, K12 trillion was misappropriated in the Ministry of Home Affairs. How many other departments are misappropriating money in the whole country? People have been very careless and God has saved us from this in the Ministry of Home Affairs. Somebody requests for a payment and the Permanent Secretary approves without checking. Meanwhile I am being asked, today, to pass this vote.

Mr Sejani: Never.

Mr Syakalima:  This has been happening for six years in a row. This is a social dilemma. We have been caught up in a web because Zambians have wanted to deceive. Maybe that is why there was Government Stores a long time ago. It was meant to deter such type of behaviour. You must know how to collect money and as a party, you must do something about why people are dipping their hands in the pockets of the national resources. This is our money and this is country too. It is annoying and I am extremely annoyed with them.

Mr Ntundu: Fashion, are you listening?

Mr Syakalima: This kind of behaviour does not help anybody. Today, we have come back again for the same vote under the same ministry. There are several ministries that make up that K12 trillion. Therefore, it means that the entire Government system is on its knees. When curtains have fallen, it is advisable to get off the stage. Colleagues you must get off the stage in 2011.

Hon. Opposition Members: Now!

Mr Lubinda: They will finish the money.

Mr Syakalima: The problem at the moment is that the power of social shame does not exist in our colleagues. If the power of social shame had dawned on them, they would have exited.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You were debating well, but now you have gone astray.

Mr Syakalima: Not you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Syakalima: I, therefore, I appeal to my decent colleague, though I know it is very difficult for him, for an explanation so that we clear these issues, forge ahead and remain with a clear conscience that the money that is appropriated today will not be over invoiced or used for bribes.

This is a very painful way of doing certain things. However, I hope that when the hon. Minister of Home affairs winds up debate, he will have the courtesy to defer this Vote so that I appropriate it with a clear conscience and know that in 2009, I passed a vote which went to the intended purpose.

Mr Chairperson, prisoners do not haves a proper diet because of the supply of insufficient food. Sometimes suppliers just collect money without having supplied anything.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I beg the indulgence of the Government and my decent colleague who reasons, unlike some people who just talk without any logic, reason and prudence.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Chairman, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity to add my word to this important Vote on the Ministry of Home Affairs.

As has already been indicated by some of my colleagues, this ministry is supposed to maintain law and order in the nation.

Mr Kambwili walked into the House.

Mr Kambwili: Ba Chibombamilimo namufuma kulya mwaleikala shikulu, apapene mwalenjeba ati mjkanchita sort out kanshi nimwe bachita.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, the police are supposed to engage in crime prevention and investigation. Upon finding cause, they are supposed to present their evidence for the judiciary for a decision.

Mr Chairman, I agree with Hon. Machungwa that the police must investigate. However, I plead with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs not to use the police to investigate cases that are not within their purview. We have enough material for them to investigate as indicated by Hon. Syakalima. If we send them on errands of social justice, they will not perform the functions they are paid for.

For the police to understand this, the recruitment to the Lilayi Police College must conform to that of the olden days when one had to present credentials of integrity and character to be offered a place.

Mr Chairperson, in the past, one had to be of a certain height to be a candidate in the Police Service. At the moment, there are police officers who are metre tall.

Laughter

Mr Magande:  How can such a police officer confront someone as tall as the hon. Deputy Minister of Education …

Laughter

Mr Magande: …who is about two metres tall without the police officer losing the case on the street?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Apart from the qualifications for recruitment, the training must include aspects of patriotism and ethics. We see police officers on the street behave as though they are not protecting the citizens and the assets of this country.

Mr Chairman, currently, police officers prefer to guard banks to guarding hon. Ministers because banks are able to pay a little more compared to the Secretary to the Treasury. This is not the role of the police. There are distinctions in terms of responsibilities.

Mr Chairperson, the syllabi must be changed to accommodate current crime. Nowadays, most crimes involve theft of public funds or theft of people’s assets. There is white collar crime using Information Communications Technology (ICT). Therefore, graduates from the Lilayi Police College must understand that criminals have become sophisticated. They use rings or triangles of support.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: When statements are made to newspapers, they must question why certain people make statements on certain issues. Who are they supporting?

Mrs Masebo: And why?

Mr Magande: They will discover that those people have the ability to pay for space in a newspaper. That is unfortunate.

The other issue is relates to equipment. The police must have adequate equipment for them to carry out their duties.  They need vehicles and computers.

The Ministry of Home Affairs has other arms of Government that deal with issues beyond police work, but within the maintenance of law and order. These include the immigration and passport officers.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy that the programmes that started recently, according to the hon. Minister’s statement yesterday, are bearing fruit.

Two years ago, we decided to start the construction of houses for the police. Those who are not aware should go to Chipata, Ndola, Kitwe and Livingstone and will see new houses for the police under construction.

This is meant to boost their morale so that they are able to carry out the patriotic job of safeguarding the assets of Zambia and Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased that most of the Heads under the Ministry of Home Affairs have an increment. I am also happy that one of the most important institutions in the land, the Prisons Department, has received an increment to its Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I am equally happy that the rehabilitation works that are going on at the biggest and most sophisticated prison, Mwembeshi Prison in my constituency, will include the teaching of some of the inmates on how to use centre pivots so that they can lead productive lives after serving their prison terms.

Sir, last year or the year before, the late President and I had the privilege of going to the prison to help with the harvest. At the moment, I understand Mwembeshi Prison has graduated to growing seed maize. You can imagine how glad the family of a graduate from Mwembeshi Prison would be when he or she tells them that he is able to grow high breed or seed maize. Therefore, I am happy that the hon. Minister and his ministry are doing something different.

Mr Chairperson, let me say that the ministry, as it is now, can help us safeguard the economic gains that we have made. I am happy that, at the moment, the hon. Minister with a legal in mind has a vibrant young lady as permanent secretary who pioneered the passport reforms.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: I hope she is going make some reforms there too.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande:  She is one of the female permanent secretaries and I would like to congratulate her and welcome her to this very difficult ministry.

Mrs Masebo: She is a Njase product!

Laughter

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I note that the Department of Registration has been given substantial amounts of money from K21 billion to K27 billion for continuous registration of Zambians. This is very progressive. Personally, I look forward to young people having national registration cards and I would like to invite them to register as voters because they are in the majority. In 2011, they must have the responsibility of choosing good leaders to lead them into the 21st Century.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Chitika (Kawambwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Vote. Before I do that, I would like to appreciate what the descent hon. Minister is doing together with his team although I know that a lot still needs to be done in that ministry.

Sir, I would have loved to talk about the behaviour of some of our police officers, but that has been ably tackled by Hon. Magande. Therefore, I will move on to one special issue that I would like to discuss this afternoon. This is the issue regarding the Drug Enforcement Commission.

Mr Chairperson, last week on Friday, I saw a very interesting programme on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation television in which the Drug Enforcement Commission Officers were training dogs. We were informed, as a nation, that these dogs will be deployed to borders for detection of narcotic substances.

Hon. Members: Kabwata!

Laughter

Ms Chitika: Sir, I have been privileged, as a member of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, to visit many of our borders in this country. I have seen smuggling of narcotic substances at its best in these borders. The fact that goods of all sorts are smuggled into this country unnoticed gives me an indication that even dangerous drugs can come through our borders unnoticed. This is why the Drug Enforcement Commission should be commended for coming up with this project because it will help us in a way.

Mr Chairperson, however, the deployment of these dogs should not only end at borders. They should also be deployed to public and private institutions because even there are potential users. I have in mind places such as media organisations …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika: … and party offices of various political parties.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kambwili Sat on the Government backbench.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 I was wondering why there was noise coming from that corner.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, you can sit there and consult quietly, but your ‘question’ from that end …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … is not good. Consult quietly, but if you want to do something else, come and sit in your place.

Hon. Member, continue, please.

Mr Kambwili Left the Government side to go to his seat.

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the dogs should not only be deployed to border areas but also be randomly taken to some public and private institutions. I have in mind, like I said earlier, various party offices and …

Laughter

Ms Chitika: … media organisations.

Laughter

Dr Scott: On a point of order.

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Laughter

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, all of us here are members of parties apart from independent hon. Members of Parliament. All the major parties of Zambia are represented in this House. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to be suggesting that our own organisations or Executives, that is the United Party for National Development (UPND), Patriotic Front (PF), Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD) …

Hon. Members: No!

Dr Scott: … need to be randomly investigated as if this were a police cell?

Laughter

Dr Scott: To me, this seems to be very offensive to the House.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member is generalising.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: In that context, I think she can continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear, hammer!

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, I thank you, for your protection.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, apart from all the places that I have mentioned, I was also of the opinion that the dogs should also be brought here at Parliament.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika: Why am I saying so?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! While the Chair initially sympathised with the person debating, now I think the Chair will say no, the dogs should not be brought to Parliament.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue!

Dr Chishimba: Let them come!

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, I thank you, for your guidance.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, if these dogs were allowed in certain places, they would go away …

Dr Chishimba: Let them come!

Ms Chitika: … with a number of people.

Laughter

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, why am I saying so?

This is because the behaviour of some people, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika: … to me, indicates that they are potential users …

Laughter

Ms Chitika: … of dangerous drugs.

Laughter

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Chitika sat down.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, continue, hon. Member, I was just asking the House to keep quiet.

Laughter

Ms Chitika: Mr Chairperson, drugs are dangerous. Drug traffickers and potential users can be a danger to themselves as well as to innocent citizens such as the Hon. Speaker.

Laughter

Ms Chitika: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to support the Vote on the Floor of this House. As an hon. Member of Parliament from a border area, I am very concerned about the security of my people.  I am glad that the private sector has assisted the Ministry of Home Affairs by putting up a police post to be opened this year with an additional number of police officers.

Mr Chairperson, today, my debate will focus on water marine policing.  This Vote has not been there for a long time now. I therefore, thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Finance and National Planning for including it in the budget this year. The Marine Department is like the Road Traffic Department in the Ministry of Communications and Transport.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to mention that there are boats that are as big as mini-buses that are registered under the Fisheries Department in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and we are losing a lot of revenue and lives due to the many accidents on the lake since the boats are never serviced and there is no one to control the loading. We could lose people who could have become ministers or backbenchers in this House one day. Where is the Marine Department in the Ministry of Communications and Transport when all this is happening? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Home Affairs came up with a budget of K934 million and K800 million has been allocated to the purchase of boats. There are places that need the marine police such as Siavonga, Mpulungu, Lake Tanganyika, Nsumbu, Zambezi and Mongu Habour.

Mr Kambwili: Nsumbu!

Mr Sikazwe: Nsumbu is bigger than Roan because it is feeding the nation with bukabuka fish.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, there are also places such as Lake Bangweulu and Mweru-wa-Ntipa. We can divide this K800 million for argument’s sake so that this department starts operating and controls the coxswains.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, even though it has been over looked for a long time, this is a very important department. We need boats costing K200 million that are faster than those used by transporters for marine policing  the same way the police use faster cars to catch unruly drivers who contravene traffic regulations. This also happens on the lake. However, on the road, drivers can pack on the side and offload whatever they want but this is not possible for boats.

The distance from Mpulungu to Kasaba Bay at Nsumbu is about 100 km. An ordinary 40 hp boat will use eight tanks of petrol per trip which is about 160 litres, but the boats the ministry will purchase have a capacity of 90hp and consumes about a drum per trip.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was trying to give an illustration on the types of boats which must be bought for the marine officers. The boats should be used on rivers and lakes. As we know, rivers and lakes have different types of waves. Therefore, when buying these boats, it should be considered where they will be used. There are a lot of problems in the Department of Fisheries. They bought boats which they are failing to use. They cannot be used on Lakes Tanganyika, Bangweulu and Kariba because they are made of aluminum which cannot withstand the waves on the lakes.

Mr Chairperson, we had similar boats which were not well maintained. The Immigration Department bought some boats which are lying idle because they have not been repaired. This trend must stop. When we buy something, we have to make sure we have contingencies for repairs and servicing.

There is an activity on marine kits which involves life jackets and communication system and only K110 million has been allocated for this. I am very concerned about this, as the allocation is not enough. We are talking about life saving equipment. This section will be working as a rescue team at the same time. What happens when a boat capsises and there are no life jackets? People are likely to drown. Some people have drunk some water before.

Hon. Members: Drunk some water!

Mr Sikazwe: On the lake.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Ignore them and address the Chair.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon. Member that Mporokoso has just one river. Nsumbu, where he comes from, has a lot of rivers and he has to go to Nsumbu to see the water I am talking about.

In Luanshya, if one drowned in the Makoma Dam, what would he have drowned in? Is it not water?

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: The hon. Member is claiming that Makoma is one of the best dams in Zambia. Let us be realistic and get to the point. What I am trying to put forward is that the marine unit is a rescue team. When they go to rescue people, there must be equipment for life saving. The allocation of K10 million is too little for this.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the issue of patrols. I have not seen any outreach boat using diesel like the big boats for rigs. Most speed boats use petrol which costs less than jet fuel. Today, the price of petrol could be K6,000 per litre, and yet only K24 million has been allocated for this programme. K24 million is enough for forty drums of petrol per year for the whole country. Surely, with this amount, the policing will not be effective. It will be torture for those of us who are expecting an improvement in the inspection on how the water transport sector is doing. I would have thought that there would be about 400 drums of fuel for centres such as Siavonga, Bangweulu, Chilubi, Mpulungu and many others.

Mr Sing’ombe: Dundumwenzi!

Mr Sikazwe: The hon. Minister knows where marine officers are stationed.

To repeat myself, this department is very important. Let us not overlook it just because most of the people are inland. There are water birds somewhere on Lake Tanganyika, in Chimbamilonga in particular. I am a beneficiary of this department.

There are fishermen who drown in Lake Tanganyika and this department is the one responsible for fishing out bodies from the lake the same way the Road Transport and Safety Agency does when there’s a traffic accident. However, imagine how that can be possible with forty drums of fuel? This is not much because they use bigger engines. On average, they need 210 litres per trip. My emphasis is that this Vote is very good, but the hon. Minister should get some additional funds from somewhere for this department and increase the allocation to about K1 billion. This is a very important department.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, if we ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs how many deaths occurred in the last year, he will not be able to say exactly because his ministry has no proper data collection. When an accident occurs, we do not know anything and the case ends just like that. That is not the way things are supposed to be done. We would like to see how the boats move from point A to B. We must position the marine officers in populated points of departure. We need marine points in Mpulungu and Nsumbu. As you open the new building, hon. Minister, I would like you to bring in some marine officers.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to borrow Hon. Kasongo’s words when he said that everybody is a potential prisoner.

Mr Magande: Everybody?

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Sikazwe: I repeat, everybody is a potential prisoner.

Hon. Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Give him a chance to debate.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, as the Ministry of Home Affairs builds houses for police officers, it should also consider building a prison in Kaputa. At the moment, people from Kaputa who are sentenced to jail are imprisoned either in Nchelenge or Mporokoso. During reformation, inmates have the right to be visited by their relatives and friends. However, the long distances hinder people from visiting their relatives in prison. This is why sometimes, even after they are released, they do not bother to rejoin their families, and opt to live in urban areas, increasing the population.

Mr Sing’ombe: They commit more crimes to go back to prison.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister must consider building a prison in Kaputa.

Hon. Opposition Member: Finally!

Mr Sikazwe: Finally, I would like to wind up on a very good note. I would like to congratulate the new Permanent Secretary of Home Affairs on her appointment. Coming from the Immigration Department, she has toured the whole of Zambia. I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister and Permanent Secretary to the Nsumbu Boarder Post where people are still using war tents as offices. I think that this has been discussed and debated many times and she is aware of what I am talking about as Permanent Secretary from the Department of Immigration. We would like the officers to be more vigilant than they have been in the past. They are doing a lot of work, but are hindered by the environment.

Mr Chairperson, the National Registration Department must be well funded to conduct mobile registration. It must be funded to conduct mobile registration of national registration cards (NRC), particularly in urban areas. We are facing a lot of problems. Some people have reached thirty-five years without an NRC. When they say that they cannot acquire NRCs, you say they are just lying. These people have been forsaken and you have de-franchised them, and yet you have not visited then to find out what their problems are. People are not able to raise enough money to get where they can obtain NRCs.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this chance to debate this Vote.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Before the hon. Member takes the Floor, I can see that there are still a number of members who would like to debate, which is understandable, but by way of advice, like I have said before, all of you are capable of making your points in less than the fifteen minutes we give you so as to allow many others to speak.

 Secondly, I am looking at certain groupings where almost everybody wants to speak. Please bear in mind the fact that there are some in your groupings who have not been speaking for sometime. It is only fair that I recognise those who have had no chance to speak.

The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I will, indeed, be brief. When I debated the Vote for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), I expressed happiness at the allocation of funds to the continuous voter registration exercise.

In supporting the Vote for this ministry, may I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for recognising the importance of continuous issue of NRCs. The programme to issue voters’ cards continuously can only succeed with adequate allocation of funds to the Department of National Registration. Therefore, it gives me pleasure that this department has been allocated K10 billion. However, to ensure that this money is utilised properly, it will be important for this department to liaise with the ECZ. It is the wish of every Zambian to ensure that come 2011, we have more registered voters on our voters’ registers.

Additionally, I am also pleased to note that money has been set aside, I think to the tune of about K200,000, for the HIV/AIDS programme for prisoners. It is common knowledge that the rate of spread of HIV/AIDS in our prisons is very high. Although the amount allocated is very little, at least it is enough for a start.

Mr Chairperson, I am equally happy that the Department of Passports has also been allocated some money. However, one issue makes me a little unhappy. Zambians have the right to move in and out of this country. For them to enjoy this freedom of movement, it is important that this department issues them with passports. However, bearing in mind the poverty levels in our country, very few Zambians can afford the fees that have been imposed for the issue of a new passport.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, this makes me sad because it restricts the enjoyment of the freedom of movement by Zambians, especially those who cannot afford the passport fees. We know that very few people can afford two meals a day in Zambia. Therefore, to expect people who cannot afford two meals a day to afford K300,000 plus for a passport is expecting too much. I am confident, however, that this listening Government will hear the plight of the people and may be consider reducing the fees for a new passport.

Having said that, may I perhaps, end my debate by appealing to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that the investigation wing of the Zambia Police is given special attention. Most cases are lost not because they are bad, but because the people who are tasked with the responsibility of investigating cases do not have transport. Besides, even simple things such as the ZP Form 133 which police officers from the Criminal Investigations Department use to record statements from witnesses are not there.

The other day, I visited the Lusaka Central Police Station and I was surprised to note that the hard working officers were using forms from the Nation Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) to record statements. This means that they were using forms donated by NAPSA. Hon. Minister, hard working as you are, please give special attention to this section of the Zambia Police.

Further, one office on the second floor; that of the Frauds Department, has more than ten officers in one small office, each one interviewing suspects at the same time. You cannot carry out investigations in such a manner.  I would like to urge you, Hon. Minister, to ensure that you give special attention to the CID Section of the Zambia Police.

With these few words, I whole heartedly support this ministry.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Chairperson, I promise to be very brief because I know that the Ministry of Home Affairs is very vast. Therefore, I will go straight to my areas of interest so that I can give a chance to others to debate also. Already, others are saying I am going to talk about immigration.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I am really concerned about the allocations that have been given to the Immigration Department. I feel the funds are not sufficient, especially the ones allocated for Investigation and Chase Ups.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at the way these funds have been distributed, especially to the provinces, it leaves much to wonder. For example, the amounts which were given for Monitoring of Immigrants and Chase Ups for Lusaka was K129,455,727 while that for Chase Ups was K233,639,697.

Sir, my worry is on the Eastern and North-Western provinces. The Eastern Province was allocated K128,448,991 for monitoring and K108,392,461 for chase ups. Coming to the North-Western Province, that houses a lot of foreigners, the allocation is marginal. The province has been given K66,205,315. I think that this amount is too small.

Sir, I have always given this ministry free advice. The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security and everyone else is complaining about employment creation in this country. I have always said that one of the tools that we can use for job creation in this country is the Immigration Department.

Mr Chairperson, when you go around this country, you will find that a lot of foreigners are working in areas where we have qualified Zambians, and yet we are denying fellow Zambians job opportunities. It is only the Immigration Department that can bring up this information. The North-Western Province has been allocated K66,205,315 against K128,448,991 for the Eastern Province. What activities are in the Eastern Province that surpass those that are in the North-Western Province? Seriously, we should address this issue properly.

Mr Chairperson, my other concern is the border post. I agree a number of border posts will be constructed, but again, I will go back to the North-Western Province where I feel we have left out a very important place called Kayombo. This place is just six kilometres away from Angola. This is the area where this Government is saying oil deposits have been discovered. What are we doing to enable the movement of people between Angola and Zambia? Sometimes, this department lacks support from this ministry. If we want to create employment for the younger ones and even for yourselves when you leave this place in 2011, you may start enquiring from this department.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, lastly…

Hon. Government Member: Which party?

Mr Sing’ombe: We are taking over as independents, if you do not know.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not worry about them. Please, address the Chair.

Mr Sing’ombe: You must start releasing tools to create space for you when you leave office.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, lastly, the welfare of this department is so bad that officers are trained in weapon handling at the Lilayi Police Training College, but when they are deployed to various stations, they have to look for police officers to give them coverage. This hampers the operations of this department. Why can we not allocate them fire arms so that when thy want to carry out their investigations, they do not need to ask the police for cover because there are fully trained officers in this department.

Sir, in 1989, immigration officers were beaten up by foreigners because they were not armed. What surprised me was that two days after, the Permanent Secretary then, was shown the person who had beaten up an officer, but this man was left scot-free. This department is trained in weapon handling. Therefore, there is no need for them to wait for other people to assist them. Sometimes, the same police officers jeopardize their investigations by leaking information.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor.

Mr Chairperson, clearly, the funds allocated to this Vote are inadequate. We must realise that it is the police who are responsible for the internal security of this country. So far, the police have done a wonderful job despite the low morale, poor conditions of service and many other problems they are facing. Therefore, we must look after this ministry and give them enough funds that can enable them carry out these programmes. It is very difficult to stamp out corruption which is rampant in the police because the conditions of service for officers are pathetic. Therefore, we urge this Government to allocate more funds to this ministry.

Sir, I am disgusted with this House politicising issues that we can just agree on as hon. Men and Women of this House. We must fund the police adequately. For example, the Vote that we debated yesterday for the Office of the Auditor-General was for a noble cause, and yet this Government went ahead and said no to that Vote. Therefore, we should give morale support to police officers.

However, it is sad to note that in this year’s Budget, we have cut the budget for officers from K194,662,161,704 to K188,473,886,609. I thought it was time we made an increase.

In some activities carried out by some departments such as farming, for example, the prisoners did very well. From the figures given by the hon. Minister, they produced about 70,000 by 50kg of maize …

Interjections

Mr Msichili: … and 70,000 …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Let him also debate. Give him a chance.

Mr Msichili: … by 50kg of wheat. If we gave them more funding, they would have produced more. However, in this year’s Budget we have reduced the money for farming. I thought this country considered agriculture as its mainstay. Instead, we have given fewer funds to deserving departments such as the prisons. As a nation, we must look at this budget, review and give them more funds in future.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the improvement of prison infrastructure. It is sad that we have not allocated enough money towards this project. It is high time we allocated more funds for the improvement of prisons because after 2011, maybe some of the hon. Members may find themselves in prison.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: This is the time they will be proud of having been part of the people who approved better conditions they would be are living in. Therefore, we should allocate more funds to this project.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the provision of utility bills, it is surprising to see the amount of money that has been allocated to this. This goes to show that it is the Government that is encouraging its departments to default. That is why institutions such as the Zambia Telecommunication Limited (Zamtel) are going under.

If you look at some amounts that have been allocated in the budget, for example, K18 million for the telephone bills, bushe fyaku bantu?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You know that you are supposed to use the official language here.

Mr Msichili: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Hon. Members: You translate!

Mr Msichili: I am saying that they should be given enough funds to meet …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Member speaking in order not to interpret the term fyaku bantu he used.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you interpret that, please, and continue debating?

Mr Msichili: It means, is it for the people?

Laughter

Hon. Members: No!

Interruptions

Mrs Mwamba: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It appears, from the laughter, that it was not the correct translation of what he said.

Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Anyway, continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Msichili: Mr Chairperson, it means, have you been bewitched?

Laughter

Mr Msichili: That is what it means.

Laughter

Mr Msichili: Mr Chairperson, we have also noticed from the budget that in some departments, there is no allocation for vehicle maintenance for the whole year. How do you expect a department to run vehicles without any money for maintenance? That is why departments end up having vehicles that are obsolete after a year.

Sir, finally, I would like to talk about the congestion in prisons. As a Government, we need to do something about the congestion.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili: At the moment, there are a lot of prisoners from Zimbabwe because of their political situation. As a result, it takes many months for someone to be repatriated. We, therefore, urge the Government to allocate more money to build more prisons so that we decongest our prisons.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate? For gender balancing purposes, I am inclined to give the Floor to the hon. Member for Mufulira, but I think she will speak last. Let me give a chance to hon. Members on my immediate left. The hon. Member for Mufulira will speak after Hon. Mwiimbu.

Hon. Members: Gender!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Sichilima: Order! Give a chance to the ladies first!

Mr Mwiimbu: … I would like to join my colleagues …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sichilima: We will bring the dogs!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Why do you want to bring the dogs here?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to join my colleagues who have praised the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for being a very decent man, operating under very difficult conditions.

Sir, I take the words of my colleague Hon. Syakalima and Hon. C. K. B. Banda, SC, as my own. However, I wish to dwell on the rights of suspects that are in police custody.

Mr Chairperson, it is not very unusual to find that when the police fail to properly and prudently investigate a case, they resort to arresting relatives of suspects.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: This scenario is very unfortunate and it is against the law.

Mr Kambwili: Muleke uko bamalukula!

Mr Mwiimbu: Lately, Sir, the courts of Zambia have indicted the Zambia Police for engaging in such vices. I am aware that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is a learned colleague who is knowledgeable pertaining to human rights. I would like to appeal to him to earnestly and vigorously pursue these violations of human rights.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I know, Mr Chairperson, that some of my colleagues in this House, when you want to advise them, usually claim that we are being malicious and have no evidence pertaining to these vices.

Sir, I have evidence pertaining to police brutality to relatives of suspects.

Mr Sichilima: Lay it on the Table.

Mr Mwiimbu: I will since you have challenged me to do so, though I did not want to do that.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to quote from the decision of the High Court of Zambia dated 4th February, 2009 between Felicia Phiri Mpinga, Salujaye Beredina Mpinga and Constables Lubinda, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … Musonda, Simukonda and the Attorney-General and this was before Justice Musonda.

For ease of reference, Mr Chairperson, I have been challenged by one colleague on your right side. I am going to read the facts pertaining to police brutality that were before the court.

Mr Chairperson, this is a judgement of the High Court of Zambia. I would like to read it for ease of reference …

Ms Lundwe: Awe!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and for the sake of this honourable House. The facts that were before the court are, and I would like to quote:

“The evidence as laid by the plaintiffs was that PW1 Salujaye Beredina Mpinga, when seated in her kitchen, plaiting her hair, some people came to her kitchen door and asked her where the goods which were taken to her home by her elder brother Peter, were. These were Constables Simukonda, Lubinda, Simbeye and Musonda,

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … whom she suspected to be police officers.

Mr Kambwili: Lubinda who?

Mr Mwiimbu: … when she told them that she did not know, Lubinda got a cassava branch and threatened to beat her.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: That was around 1900 hours. They took her to Kabangwe Police Post where they debated whether to detain her or not. Later, they went back to her mother’s home in Matero and picked up the mother too.

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairperson, is it in order for the hon. Member to be talking about Lubinda without specifying which Lubinda this is? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair will not make a ruling on that one because I can see some insinuation in that point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, when they reached Kabangwe Police Post at 20:00 hours, her mother and herself were detained without charge. In the cells, Simukonda called the captain of the inmates and asked her to lift Felicia’s shirt up to the neck and told her to put the child by the corridor and the captain started beating her whilst Simukonda was looking on.

Mr Chairperson, Simukonda later pushed his hands into Felicia’s vagina and told her that she was a relative of a thief and asked her to sit down. This is very unfortunate, Sir.

They locked her mother and this particular relative to the accused. The following day, the police officers asked the witness where her brother was, but when she said she did not know, they asked her to wear a pair of trousers, but she told them she had never worn one in her life. They then asked her to sleep on the table and one of them started whipping her with a red black. She was asked to reveal her brother’s whereabouts. When she said she did not know, they detained her for a further four days.

She produced a medical report issued by the police indicated that she was assaulted with a whip and had some bruises. The mother testified that she was in Matero on 20th January, 1999 when some police officers approached her and told her that they had something to tell her and asked her to accompany them to the road. When they reached where the police had packed, she found her daughter in the police vehicle. The police asked her where her son was, but she said that she did not know. They took the mother and detained her and made her sit in water. Later they made her wear some trousers, tied her hands and put her on a swing and whipped her head down.

Mr Lubinda: Is this in Zambia?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the police officers who did this were Lubinda, Simukonda and Musonda.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, in the evening of 21st January, 1999 she was taken to Matero to look for her son.

Mr Chairperson, the evidence I am giving shows that there is police brutality and it is not unusual. When the police fail to find the accused, they resort to arresting relatives. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who is a learned hon. Member, to advise the police that this is illegal.

Mr Chairperson, as a result of this police brutality, the Judge has ordered the police officers to pay the victims K20,000,000.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am making an earnest appeal, on behalf of the innocent Zambians who have fallen prey to police brutality, to ensure that this vice is stopped.

The other issue I would like to mention is that there are bad eggs in the Police Force. Lately, Mr Chairperson, we have been hearing that some of the police officers are tarnishing the good image of the Zambia Police Force and there is some evidence to this effect.

Some police officers are involved in armed robberies and motor vehicle thefts and many other vices. We all appreciate the good work the noble police officers are doing in this country under very difficult conditions. Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the Government to remove the bad eggs from the Police Force.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I am very sorry to interrupt my brother who is debating very well, but is he in order not to mention that the police are also stalking women. I was stalked by a police officer. Is he in order to leave out such an important point.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am sure that as the hon. Minister winds up debate, he will address some of those issues. You have adequately debated your point of order and sorry for the stalking.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I strongly condemn that police officer who has been harassing my sister.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I indicated that the police officers in Zambia have been working very hard under very difficult conditions and they need our genuine support as Parliamentarians. The police need their conditions of service improved and so I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that the conditions of service for the Zambia Police are, at least, nearer to those of other security wings of Government.

The conditions of service for the Zambia Police are the poorest amongst the security wings and I have no doubt that all of us would like to have a secure home and life and that can only be done, if we assist the police with the requisite equipment and conditions of service.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that houses for the police should not be built selectively. We also need police stations and houses for police officers throughout Zambia. We have been told that houses for police officers are being built in Livingstone, Ndola and other areas, but not in the majority of the districts of Zambia.

I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, as he comes with a supplementary budget, since we have been informed that there will be supplementary budgets, to consider building houses for police officers in all the districts and police camps of Zambia.

With these few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I wish to salute the gallant men and women of the Zambia Police.

Mr Mwiimbu laid the document on the Table.

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote. I wish to draw the attention of the House to a small word called price. The definition, according to the dictionary in the House, says the amount of money expected, required or given in payment for something. The immediate indicator of the value of an item or service is the price. Sometimes, indeed, the price may not be the best indicator, but that is what is generally accepted. Price is also used as an expression of value. We know the common phrase that says, “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son”.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masiye: There is no love without giving. There is always an attachment of giving to love because giving is an expression of value. How much a person is prepared to pay for something shows how much value one attaches to that item?

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Ms Masiye: The reverse, enishaa.

Laughter

Ms Masiye: The reverse is also true. There is no point in spending so much on something of no value. I am sure both genders, particularly the men folk, as I heard from the “Hear, hears”, agree with me that what I am saying is quite true. Even nature echoes the same as seen from predators that never rest until they find prey and provide a kill for their families.

Mr Chairperson, it is also true that a penalty sentence or punishment speaks the world about the gravity of an offence. These are but facts of life. What am I talking about? I am talking about the Victims Support Unit (VSU). Naturally, as a woman, particularly one privileged to be in a position of influence; the one subject I hold dear to my heart is one that generally affects women and children. The VSU caters for both genders, but I am sure you all agree with me that a woman by her nature winds up the victim most of the time and so is her child. Yes, I do agree that gender stereotype sometimes prejudices the male victim. However, if the VSU is well funded, it could work it up for everybody.

Mr Chairperson, two days ago, I was at the University of Zambia in the Assistant Registrar’s Office, in which I found on the notice board three very interesting posters which I will of course lay on the table. Allow me to read out these posters. One is in a cartoon form. There is a woman saying, I was told that when your husband beats you, it means he loves you.

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masiye: That is the first picture. The second picture shows a man lying on the floor in a pool of blood clobbered to death and there is a police officer trying to find a pulse to confirm whether the man is still alive or not. Then, she says to exculpate herself, so this time I also decided to show him how much I love him.

Laughter

Ms Masiye: She really did express her love for this man because when expressing her love for this man …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Masiye: … she did not use her hands because she is a weaker sex. She used a club. Sir, you shall take a look when I lay the paper on the table.

Mr Chairperson, on the same notice board, there was another very interesting picture with a message and the heading was ‘The Strong Black Woman’. It reads, unfortunately, the writer is not indicated so I cannot quote, but this makes very interesting reading. “Whilst struggling with the reality of being a human instead of a myth, the strong black woman passed away. Medical sources said she died of natural causes, but those who knew her, know she died from being silent when she should have been screaming, smiling, when she should have been raging from being sick and not wanting any one to know because her pain might inconvenience them. She died from an over dose of other people clinging to her when she did not even have the energy for herself.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! How?

Ms Masiye: Mr Chairperson, I will make reference to these posters later. On page 84 of the Yellow Book on Unit 27, Programme 07 – K166,722,070, we find the Victim Support Unit and there are comparative figures for 2008 and 2009. The figure for 2008 is K181,612,148 and the figure for 2009 is K166,722,070 . The figure has come down by about K14 million. The figures are broken down as follows: For 2009 - Counselling and Sensitisation – K30,000,000. For Production of Education Materials – K65,750,000. Juvenile Justice – K70,972,070.

Mr Chairperson, is this the way we express our concern for the victims in this country by this Government. The amount of money that has been given to support this very noble cause is meagre. I cannot even call it paltry. I do not know how I can express this figure because it is worth less than the value of vehicles some people in certain quarters drive and I mean less than the value of one vehicle, for the whole year and for the whole unit. As I said earlier, the victims in most cases are the women and children. The perpetrators in most cases are the men who head the households.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Laughter

Ms Masiye: I wonder whether what Hon. Mwiimbu has just been reading could have been effectively done on a man. The policemen could have thought twice, before reaching the police station, probably something could have happened and en route, but because it is vulnerable weaker sex we hear such a sad story. Women are battered everyday in the name of love. The woman who speaks her mind is deemed insolent. With the advent of HIV/AIDS, in situations of discordant couples most women do not even negotiate for safe sex in the homes. They risk their lives and health which is really unfair and unfortunate. Sexual harassment at places of work is the order of the day. The assassination of a woman as a sex symbol or a trophy or simply a symbol of attraction as seen in some adverts is another unfortunate thing.

As you have seen, Mr Chairperson, the other picture that I have here is of a woman and it picks on a vulnerable village woman carrying a hamburger on her head and a tin of coca cola is an advert. I am not biased against coca-cola or the company, but I am merely giving an example of how the woman is indirectly abused as a symbol to attract. In towns, again one would notice that all the trucks carrying Coca-Cola have posters of a woman downing the drink.

Mr Chairperson, this is most unfortunate and the list is endless. I would, however, be failing if I did not mention the many incidences our media is capturing. For instance, the story on Muvi Television last Sunday where a woman was clobbered after she had borrowed a tablet of soap and a basin to use for bathing. There are many others who suffer and die silently. On the other hand, children are victims of sexual molestation. Every other day we read in the press about sexual molestation. Whilst victims may be accorded counseling to take care of the psychological effects of the abuse, the perpetrators in some cases go scot-free and still in some cases are published in the media. 

The Victim Support Unit needs technical and professional support to enable the law enforcement system effectively prosecute the perpetrators. I am appealing to the Government to consider funding this unit adequately. I also echo Hon. Mwiimbu’s words that when a supplementary budget is brought, the victims out there will appreciate it if the allocation for this unit is raised from less than K200 million to something more meaningful. How much the Government cares for the victims is expressed by how much is allocated to such a protective unit. It is immoral for this valuable unit to receive such meagre amounts. People have spoken about morality here and I believe that the ministry responsible is reasonable enough to look into this particular matter as well as the other issues of morality that have been raised.

Mr Chairperson, on that note, I thank you.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to wind-up debate on this motion. I want to begin by thanking all my hon. Colleagues who have debated the motion for their support. I want to emphasise that this year, the police will continue with the recruitment exercise of 1,500 police officers so that we can reach the ultimate number of 27,000 police officers by 2015. We must understand that we come …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, maybe we should allow the previous speaker to lay the papers on the Table before you continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you, please, lay the papers on the Table.

Ms Masiye laid the papers on the Table.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister can continue, please.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that we must realise that we come from a low figure of 6,000 police officers …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Mwansa: … in 1993. I must commend all my colleagues who have previously held my current portfolio for their efforts in bringing the total number of police officers to 15,000 that it is today.

Hon. Machungwa debated with passion on the culture of lawlessness, but I want to assure him and everybody else that under our law, there are institutions which are mandated to investigate crime that we always use. We are worried about lack of professionalism and ethics for any institution that is not mandated and trained to investigate crime. We are also concerned about lack of observance of human rights.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think hon. Members are not paying attention. The problem with that is that when we come to figures is when you want to debate policy.

Continue hon. Minister, please.

Dr Mwansa: The issue of human rights in law enforcement is cardinal and we think that the institutions which are not trained to investigate criminal cases may not be able to abide by ethics and professionalism that is required in law enforcement.

Hon. Machungwa also debated the issue of an air wing and I must assure him that the matter is still under consideration and if resources permit, we will be able to fulfill this idea of establishing an air wing for the police department.

Hon. Syakalima also debated with passion the issue of misappropriation of resources in the ministry and I want to assure him that we are sharpening our skills to ensure that resources allocated to the ministry are used appropriately and in accordance with the requirements and rules that are established. We will continue to recruit and train accountants and auditors to ensure that funds are well accounted for and are not misused. So I want to assure him that after the budget has been passed, we will …

Interjections

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, ignore the hecklers and continue addressing the Chair.

Laughter

Dr Mwansa: … be able to allow the wheels of justice to continue turning and that law and order maintenance is continued. So I am pleading with the House to approve our budget so that we do not have difficulties in that area.

I appreciate Hon. Magande’s debate about things going on in the ministry regarding housing and agriculture and I also want to assure him that we will continue with emphasis on issues of integrity, honesty and patriotism as we meet our obligations in the ministry.

I want to assure Hon. Chitika that I agree with her and potential users of drugs must take heed of the warning that she gave.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Hon. Sikazwe’s comment on marine has been taken note of and his appeal for a prison in Kaputa will be considered.

Hon. Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: I thank Hon. Banda so much for the contribution and I want to give assurance that there are considerations going on in the ministry between our Department of National Registration and the Electoral Commission of Zambia to ensure that the voter’s card and the national registration card are issued simultaneously.

Hon. Sing’ombe debated the issue of disparities in the allocation of resources to provinces and I want to assure him that sending of funds to provinces is under the Decentralisation Programme and that provinces receiving less funding may be assisted by the centre or headquarters if they are in difficulties.

I thank Hon. Mwiimbu so much for his debate. His is my colleague and I am very disturbed by the revelation of guilty by association. It is not part of our legal system and I speak like a criminologist because as a politician, I have studied this subject and I am very saddened that this is happening in our country. We will take immediate steps to stop it. Guilty by association is alien to legal system and it is never done or encouraged. It is not in any Commonwealth country and for this to happen in our country I very disturbed and we will follow it up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Ema Minister aya.

Dr Mwansa: However, I must say that within the Police Service, we have very good officers who are doing a commendable job to maintain law and order. Of course, there are a few bad ones which we will isolate and deal with sternly so that they do not pollute everybody else.

I also want to say that for the purposes of preventing police excessive use of force, we have established the Police Public Complaints Authority which hears all cases of abuse of authority by police officers. Some police officers have been investigated and some of them have lost their jobs or have been punished as a result of brutality or excessive force while enforcing the Law.

Interjections

Dr Mwansa: Lastly, let me commend Hon. Masiye for what she said. I followed her philosophical debate very well.

Laughter

Dr Mwansa: I am aware that the funding to the Victim Support Unit in our ministry is quite low. It is a very important wing with regard to observance of human rights. However, I must appeal to all Zambians to examine their conscience and stop domestic violence. We should not wait for the Victim Support Unit to intervene in every incident of domestic violence but stop it in our own homes and communities.

With these few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 11/01 – Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K177,214,982,783).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on Vote 11/01:

(i) Under 8 Service Motor Transport Unit, Programme: 7 Transport Management, Activity 01 Zambia Police Fleet Management, by the deletion of K18,337,376,118 and the substitution therefor of K17,337,376,118.

(ii) Under 11 Human Resources and Administration Unit (Training), Programme: 5 Capacity Building, by the insertion of Activity 07 Training of Police Recruits with an amount of K2,000,000,000; and

(iii) Under 16 Inspections Unit, Programme: 9 Plant and Equipment, Activity 01 Construction and Procurement of Housing Units, by the deletion of K65,500,000,000 and substitution therefor of K64,500,000,000.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairman, I have a number of questions. The first one is on Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K650,000,000 and 04 Rehabilitation of Police Stations – K650,000,000. In view of the fact that police camps and stations are still in a deplorable state, I would like to find out why the Government has found it fit to reduce the allocation to the rehabilitation of camps and police stations by more than K200,000,000 in both cases?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairman, on Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K650,000,000 and 04 Rehabilitation of Police Stations – K650,000,000, we appreciate Hon. Lubinda’s concern which is our concern too. However, we have to make do with what is available and in this case that is what we have. This is a continuous programme. We shall do what we can with what we have this year and then we will continue next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, an additional question is on Unit 11, Programme 5, Activity 02 (Colleges and Universities) for Police Officers – K93,000,000 and 06 – Police Training – K16,800,000. In view of the fact that the hon. Minister laments the low number of police officers for our population, I would like to find out how many police officers the Government intends to train in 2009 using a reduced allocation of only K93,000,000 provided at headquarters and also another K16,800,000. How many police officers will be trained with K93,000,000?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, Unit 11, Programme 5, Activity 02 (Colleges and Universities) for Police Officers – K93,000,000 and 06 – Police Training – K16,800,000, this is in-service training. That is why we moved the amendment so that we could create sufficient resources to recruit 1,500 police officers and this is sufficient for this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairman, I have a question on Unit 1, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Acquisition of Vehicles – K1, 300,000,000. This figure has been reduced from K2,990,000,000. Considering that we have problems of transport for most police stations in the district, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many vehicles can be bought from this amount and whether Chongwe is included since the district is very big and it has no transport. There are a lot of cases in Chongwe and it is difficult for the officers to get to far places?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, there is K1,300,000,000 for the acquisition of vehicles. As I said earlier, we have to do with what we have and if we cannot buy sufficient vehicles this year, we will be able to buy next year and subsequent years. For this year, this is what we can afford.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Chairperson, in the procurement of vehicles, has Chimwemwe Constituency been included?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, we do not buy vehicles for constituencies, but for the police and it is up to the police to distribute as needs arise.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm whether he is going to continue buying 4 X 4 wheel drive vehicles for rural areas as he has started.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I can confirm this. 

Thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 11/01 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/03 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs, Lilayi Police Training School – K13,291,364,430).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, Lilayi Police Training School happens to be in Kabwata Constituency that I am privileged to represent. On unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Maintenance of Buildings – K68,563,894, Sir, in every budget I have asked when the Government shall release sufficient resources to rehabilitate all the buildings that are in a deplorable state at the Lilayi Police Training School. Last year, K61,050,000 was allocated, but the structures are still in a deplorable state because the amount was too low. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many buildings he hopes the Lilayi Police Training School to work on this year with this paltry allocation of K68,563,894 which is less than what was allocated last year.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, rehabilitation will be according to the amount of money which has been allocated. The amount is limited because the basket the money is coming from is also limited.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out on what basis the Ministry of Home Affairs makes the budget for electricity and water. As you can see, the amounts for electricity and water are the same. Is this coincidence? What is the criterion because water and electricity cannot cost the same?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity. We want to isolate utilities from general administration by budgeting for them separately, and we think that the equal amounts are sufficient to cover these two activities because the consumption of water and electricity is quite high at this institution.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek further clarification on Unit 4, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Public Order Maintenance and Crime Prevention – K52,750,543. Why is there only K52,750,543 for Public Order Maintenance and Crime Prevention as opposed to K891 million allocated to the so-called VIP Protection? What is the rationale behind this?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, these are two different activities requiring two different levels of funding and manpower.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, on Unit 4, Programme 7, Activity 02 – Kennel Management – K40,000,000, there was no provision last year for Kennel Management. How were the dogs looked after? Have the dogs just been bought so that they can come and sniff here at Parliament?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Since that relates to a previous contribution, I do not think that we should go to that extent.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/04 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – State House Police –K11,210,438,831).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi):  Mr Chairperson, on Unit 4, Programme 7, Activity 01 –  VIP Protection  –  K891,000,000, K1,435,750,055 was allocated last year and there is a reduction this year to K891,000,000,. Why do we have a reduction?  Are we reducing VIP protection?

Dr Mwansa: No, Mr Chairperson. We are not reducing VIP protection. We are just rationalising what we have.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/06 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – TAZARA Police – K5,395,253,613).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 03 – Sensitising Officers  on the Changing Working Methods – K9,000,000, we have seen a reduction from K27,964,286 to K9,000,000 this year when there is a concern that the attitude and work culture is not very good. Why should there be a reduction?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Chairperson, the reduction is because more officers were sensitised last year and we cannot be repeating the same programme. We have to wait until the programme comes up again.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, we know that police officers are lowly paid. I can see that K335,357,256 was budgeted for last year for salaries.

The Deputy Chairperson: Which programme is that?

Mr Kambwili: This is on Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K592,961,893, what is the percentage of the salary increment that has been budgeted for?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, we budgeted for this in anticipation that there will be an increment and that would depend on what the Civil Service will agree upon and then work it out accordingly.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson on unit 5, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Intelligence Gathering – K37,183,693, it is my understanding that the duty of CIDs is to gather information. We budgeted for K61,250,000 last year and it has been reduced to K37,183,693 this year. Does this indicate that this function is no longer attainable in terms of helping the police to catch criminals?

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is a result of the number of activities which have been reduced.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, on unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 03 – Sensitising Officers on the Changing Working Methods – K9,000,000, in response to the question raised by Hon. Mukanga concerning the sensitisation of officers in the changing working methods, the hon. Minister said that a lot of officers were trained last year and there is no reason to repeat the training and that the K99,000,000 is to cater for those that were not trained. The question that arises is, if members of the public and the hon. Minister acknowledge the fact that the work culture amongst police officers is not that good after having receiving that training, is this not an indication that the training was wrong and, therefore, requires refocusing which will in turn require additional resources? Is that not the case? If that be the case, why is there a reduction then?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I will give a short answer. That is not the case.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/07 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Paramilitary – K26,761,806,197).

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, comparing the 2009 total vote – K26,761,806,197 with the 2008 vote – K20,570,356,476, it is roughly up by 25 per cent and it was actually 5 per cent in 2008 over 2007. This is totally out of proportion with the general police head. Can the hon. Minister explain what is going on? Are we giving more priority to the paramilitary and less to civilian bobbies?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, this is a specialised wing of the police, and as the term paramilitary suggests, they are also called upon to carry out border patrols.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on unit 2, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Rotation of Officers – K49,550,528. I would like to find out why there is a reduction when there is constant rotation of officers on the Mufulira/Ndola Road who man the roadblocks.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, the rotation of officers this year will decrease, hence the reduction in the allocation.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/08 – (Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs – Airport Division – K6,371,655,113).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Staff Welfare – Loans and Advances – K24,000,000. Are we serious by providing K24,000,000 for loans for officers at the airport for the whole year? This amount is supposed to cater for one person. I would like the hon. Minister to clarify how many police officers are at the airport for him to provide this amount for all of them.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, the reason for that allocation is that a number of officers got loans last year.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: You are lying. We are going to raise a point of order on you, tomorrow.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Staff Welfare – Loans and Advances – K24,000,000. There was no allocation for loans and advances for the police at the airport last year. Therefore, that answer cannot stand.

Mr Chairperson, the airport division is in my constituency and I would like to challenge the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to take into …

 The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Ask your question and not pause a challenge.

Mrs Masebo: I am sorry Mr Chairperson. I thank you for your guidance. I wanted to say to the hon. Minister that he should visit the police at the airport …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do you have a question?

Mrs Masebo: Yes. The question is related to what I am saying and that is the amount of money in question is not enough when he sees how these people live. They are not living in homes.  There has to be a figure that can cushion …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Masebo, I understand and sympathise with your sentiments, but you have to ask a question.

Mrs Masebo: Is it possible for the hon. Minister to move a vote within his ministry and increase the amount for officers’ loans at the airport to, at least, K50 million because as it is, it will only cater for two officers.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is good.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I certainly sympathise with my colleagues over this amount. I think that it is possible for headquarters to come to the rescue of this department within the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Staff Welfare – Loans and Advances – K24,000,000. The hon. Minister said that loans were given out last year. I would like to know where the money came from because there was no allocation to this vote last year.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Central Province – 
K13,954,346,823).

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, is the ministry being fair to itself in the last three votes we have gone through …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you please zero in on this particular Vote?

Mr Matongo: … that is the last two and this particular one.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Matongo, we have gone through the last two Votes. Can you address yourself to this particular one?

Mr Matongo: I seek clarification on Unit, 1 Programme 2, Activity 03 – Payment for Utilities.   Is the ministry being fair to itself not to provide for Payment for Utilities?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, Payment for Utilities has moved from Programme 2 to 6. Our Budget is K52,953,319 for water and electricity respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 2, Programme 7, Activity 02 – School Awareness Programme on Sexual Offence  – K11,188,202. In view of the high number of cases involving sexual abuse of children, I would like to know why the hon. Minister has only provided this amount for this programme.
 
Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, this activity involves publication of pamphlets warning people against abuse of children and other sexual offences, and we think that this amount is adequate for this programme.

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/12 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – K8,390,121,242).

Dr Scott: Mr Chairman, if you look at the last three provinces, there are provisions for traditional ceremonies. However, in the Northern Province, the provision for traditional ceremonies is under Community Services.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Scott: I am asking whether he …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! When Hon. Matongo debated, I said that we should not refer to what has already passed. Can you concentrate on this particular Vote on the Floor?

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, the categorisation of the budget is inconsistent in one province to the next and it makes it impossible to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are now debating policy. What is your question?

Dr Scott: Can the hon. Minister undertake to bring a proper budget next year?

Laughter

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, this is a proper budget. Therefore, there is no question of bringing a proper budget next year.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I think what is important is that we have provided for traditional ceremonies for all the provinces. This is critical, and we may look at it next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 02  – Traditional Ceremonies – K35,000,000.  There is an increment this year because last year K30,000,000 was provided.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, is that on Head 11/12?

Mrs Masebo: Yes, Sir. This is Unit 3, Community Services.

Deputy Chairperson: You mean Programme 8.

Mrs Masebo: Yes, Sir. When you look at the other programmes within the same Vote under the Northern Province, you will notice that there are no increments in most of the activities because the ministry has tried to maintain the same figures for 2008 in 2009. However, when you come to traditional ceremonies, it is the only programme whose allocation has been increased. Can the hon. Minister not see the possibility of diverting funds to activities that other line ministries have also provided for?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I certainly sympathise with my colleague for that observation, but I would like to say that traditional ceremonies have very challenging law enforcement issues to deal with. That is why we must ensure that we maintain heavy police presence to provide security to everybody attending these ceremonies.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/14 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home – Eastern Province – K8,713,140,949).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Criminal Arrests – K9,300,000. Last year, K11,372,070 was provided. Why is there a reduction this year when the crime rate has increased in the Easter Province?

Mr V. Mwale: Ba Bemba ba paka!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is only K1.9 million and there is no statistical evidence to show that crime has increased in the Eastern Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, General Administration – K145,155,000 and Unit 2, Programme 7, Crime Dictation and Prevention – K61,600,000. This is a general question.

Mr Chairperson: Just ask one question.

Mrs Masebo: Sir, in reference to these two units, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the money that has been provided will be used for police operations. For example, when the Chipata District Council wants to remove illegalities from the streets, can they use the same money? In the past, the police have …

Mr Chairperson: The question is understood.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, this money varies according to provinces. Therefore, it cannot be uniform.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE – 11/15 (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home – Luapula Province – K6,793,595,678).

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 4, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Border Patrols – K74,070,000. I notice that the reduction is almost half of what was provided for last year. Does this mean that there will be a reduction in border patrols along the Luapula River which stretches from Chembe to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Your question is understood.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, yes, the operations will be reduced in this area because of limited resources. That is why we cannot go further than that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I am getting concerned.

The Deputy Chairperson: On which programme are you getting concerned?

Mr Mukanga: On the same Unit 4, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Border Patrols – K74,070,000. They allocation has been reduced from K118,930,875 last year to K74,070,000. I am concerned because there are serious problems on the border along the Luapula River because people are dying nearly everyday. Why has the Government reduced funding this year?

The Chairperson: Order! Alright, the question is why is there is a reduction this year?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I understand those concerns, but this is a Vote for the province and if there are exceptional areas of law enforcement that will need subvention, the headquarters will always come to the rescue of the provinces. Therefore, they should not worry.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/16 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home – North -Western Province – K6,590,301,381).

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Staff Welfare-Loans and Advances – K30,000,000. In other provinces Staff Welfare-Loans and Advances have been provided for while the North-Western Province has nothing. Does it mean that police offices in the North-Western Province do not need loans?

The Deputy Chairperson: Your question has been understood.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, it is just a reduction, but the figure is there

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Dr Mwansa: It is just that this is what we could afford this particular year.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

VOTE 15/01 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K53,998,105,439).

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 02 – Prisoners Welfare – K9,849,319,989. The amount provided for this year is virtually identical except by K10 million; K9,849,139,989 as opposed to K9,839,319,989 for last year and the year before. How come the amount of money allocated for food and other things for prisoners does not vary from year to year, when prices of food and medicines are going up and the number of prisoners is also going up every year. This is an essential activity.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. B. Phiri): Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the hon. Member’s concern. This figure which appears to be static currently suffices.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the question that was raised by Hon. Dr Scott was why the allocation has been static over the last three years, and yet the prices of commodities are increasing and the number of prisoners is also increasing. In addition, I also want to find out why the figure is static notwithstanding the fact that this House has been appropriating huge amounts of money to prison farms which are supposed to produce food to supplement …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think that is where we have a problem. Your questions should be straight forward. I believe the hon. Minister of Home Affairs got your question. Therefore, let him answer it. I am trying to avoid questions that lead to debate.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, given the fact that over the last seven years, we have been investing in farms that are run by prisons on the understanding that these farms will supplement the feeding of prisoners …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think it is understood.

Mr D. B. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, if you go to Unit 1, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Prison Farms Expansion – K300,000,000, you will notice that there is a significant reduction this year compared to what it was last year because we have taken your concern into account, hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 02 – Prisons Welfare – K9,849,319,989. What is the breakdown of this Prisons Welfare? Does it include suppliers of beans such as party cadres?

Laughter

Mr D. B. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, that figure is meant to cater for rations of any kind. These are rations that are supplied by any duly registered supplier to the prison institution.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Prisons Welfare – K9,849,319,989. What mechanism is the hon. Minister putting in place to ensure that monies which are being appropriated are not abused?

Mr D. B. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, mechanisms such as the necessary tender procedures are put in place and they are followed to the letter.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 15/01 ─ Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Headquarters ─ K53,998,105,439 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes ─ (62)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr A. Banda
Mr R. C. Banda 
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chibombamilimo
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo
Ms Cifire
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa 
Mr Mangani
Ms Masebo
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mpombo
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Mulyata
Mr Munkombwe
Dr S. Musokotwane
Mr Muteteka
Mr B. M. Mwale
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mwaanga
Mr Mwangala
Dr T. K. Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Nkhata
Mr D. B. Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shawa
Lieutenant General Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sichilima
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinyinda
Mr F. R. Tembo

Tellers for Ayes:

Mr Chilembo
Mrs R. Musokotwane

Noes ─ (37)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr Beene
Colonel G. Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kambwili
Ms Kapata 
Mr Kasoko
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Mr Malama
Mr Matongo
Mr Mooya
Mr Mukanga
Mr L. J. Mulenga
Ms Mumbi
Mr Muntanga
Mrs R. Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Ms Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr D. Mwila
Mr Nsanda
Mr Ntundu
Dr Scott
Mr Sikota
Mr Simuusa
Mr Sing’ombe

Tellers for Noes:

Mr Mukanga
Mr Changwe

Abstentions ─ (04)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 15/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03/ ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/10 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – Prisons and Reformatories – K671,806,441)

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 01 – Inspections – K69,053,908. Last year, we had K166,889,847 but it has been reduced to K69,053,908. Why is there a reduction in the allocation? Why are we reducing the allocation to inspections?

Mr D. B. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, we have reduced on inspections this year because we had stepped up inspections the previous year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 15/15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Luapula Province – Prisons and Reformatories – K406,260,913)

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can we consult quietly? Hon. Minister, can you consult quietly, please.

You may continue, please.

Mr Mukanga: … may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 03 – Operational Prison Requirements – K114,248,902. There has been a reduction from K200,610,000 last year, to K114,248,902 this year. I would like to find out why there is a reduction on this and what is involved? What are these prison requirements?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, what is involved in prison requirements are basic requirements such as detergents and soaps for sanitation. That is what is required. Last year, we procured quite a number of these items for the province.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has talked about detergents that will be used in improving hygiene in the prisons. However, with this reduction, will it not compromise the hygiene standards in the prisons despite procuring some detergents last year?

Major Chizhyuka: Policy!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, we will not compromise the standards.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 15/18 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – Passport and Citizenship – K209,572,689)

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 06 – Digitisation of National Travel Documents – no allocation. I would like to find out why we have no allocation this year when the exercise is on but we had K15,000,000 last year.

Mr D. B. Phiri: Mr Chairperson on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 06 – Digitisation of National Travel Documents – no allocation, the explanation is that we have allocated enough money under Headquarters for that purpose.

I thank you.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/56 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/57 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – K3,931,985,747).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairman, I rise to present the policy statement to back the estimates for 2009 for the Commission for Investigations.

The Commission for Investigations was established in December, 1973 under Article II (3) of the Republican Constitution as read with Section 20 of the Commission for Investigations Act …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: I think this is an important policy statement the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is making.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! If you want to go out, you had better go out. Let us keep quiet and listen.

Your Honour the Vice-President, you may continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … No. 22 of 1974. Today, it derives its legal status from Article 90 of the 1996 Republican Constitution and the Commission for Investigations Act. No. 20 of 1991, Cap. 39 of the Laws of Zambia.

The Commission for Investigations promotes the rights of persons who have been unfairly disadvantaged during their interaction with public service institutions. Its goal is to ensure compliance to laid down administration procedures, rules, practices, ethics and in short, collective action in public institutions in order to enhance effective and efficient administration.

Major Achievements of the Commission for Investigations

The Commission has concluded a case management audit covering a period of eight years. The audit has revealed major respondent institutions where most complaints emanate from and the common nature of complaints. The auditors also showed the provinces where the highest number of complaints came from. The results of the audit report have helped the Commission for Investigations to point out critical areas where urgent Government intervention is required.

Mr Chairman, in 2008, the Commission for Investigations received 298 cases during the period 1st January, 2008 to 31st December, 2008 and resolved 337 cases inclusive of cases carried forward from 2007.

In terms of funding to the Commission for Investigations, I am pleased to note that this august House has been increasing the budget allocation commensurate with its workload. For instance, in 2007 …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: What is happening? I cannot believe this. The irony is that it is hon. Members on my right who are making noise. His Honour the Vice-President is on the Floor, and I thought it is important that everybody listens, particularly hon. Members from my right.

Can you continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … this House approved a budget of K2,924,366,476.00 for the Commission out of which K2,858,344,391.00 was actually released.

In 2008, the House approved a budget of K3,214, 889,000.00 for the Commission for Investigations and K2,681,118,83 was actually released from the Treasury. These allocations have assisted the work of the Commission for Investigations.

Challenges in the Implementation of Programmes

One of the key constraints the Commission for Investigations has faced has been the centralisation of its operations. From its inception in 1974, the Commission for Investigations has been centralised in Lusaka. It does not have offices in provinces and districts. Consequently, it conducts its investigations mainly by correspondence. I am happy to report that this situation is now being addressed by the Government.

Key Development Programmes for 2009

 The Commission for Investigations will focus on three priority activities in 2009. These are:

(i) Decentralisation of the Commission for Investigations  – the Commission will open three regional offices in Ndola, Lusaka and Livingstone;

(ii) Restructuring of the Commission – the Commission will continue to expand its staff establishment in 2009 to provide the required manpower for the regional offices being established. The Commission will, therefore, recruit additional staff while some of the existing ones will be transferred to stations of need; and

(iii) Provincial Tours –to resolve pending cases on the spot and at the same time receive new ones, the Commission will undertake regular provincial sittings.

I, therefore, urge this august House to approve the 2009 Budget for the Commission for Investigations.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members for the overwhelming support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – Headquarters – K3,931,985,747).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, on Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 04 – On the Spot Investigations – K148,754,195, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice indicated that the Commission for Investigations will this year increase the number of its provincial sittings and I suppose that will have to be paid for under Activity 04. How will the Commission possibly increase its own the spot investigations on the provincial sittings beyond what they did in 2008 when actually the budget to the Commission for that particular item has been reduced from K299,140,000 to K148,754,195? How will that happen, Sir?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, K299,140,000 was provided in 2008 and K233,154,000 has been allocated in 2009. The activities are budget for according to the allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imbwae (Imbwae): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 04 – On the Spot Investigations – K148,754,195. The figures are contradictory. What are the correct ones?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, yes, it has reduced to K233,154,000 from K299,140,000.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think we are talking about different activities. Hon. Imbwae, what page are you referring to in the Yellow Book? Can you say it again?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, there is a reduction in the Yellow Book from K299,140,000 to K148,754,195. We shall rationalise the tours within the available resources. This is the amount we can provide for this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I K280,000,000, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K193,000,000, Activity 03 – Salaries Division III – K40,000,000, Activity 04 – Wages – 65,671,552, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments –K186,000,000. There is a reduction in all the activities compared to last year. Why is this so? Is there a reduction in the number of employees or …

The Deputy Chairperson: That is understood. Your Honour the Vice-President may answer.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Iwe, kabwalala!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, this is to cover salaries of the Commissions’ secretary, commissioners and other divisions.

With regard to Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I –  K280,000,000, the Commission will only have two commissioners instead of three as per structure, hence the reduction.

This applies through to Activity 05 because the other commissioner will not be catered for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I got two different answers from the hon. Deputy Minister and His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice. There must be a typographical error in the answer the hon. Deputy Minister has.

Secondly, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice said that the operations would be rationalised. However, in his policy statement, he stated that the Commission will increase not only on the spot investigations, but will also have provincial sittings.

Last year, the Commission had K299,140,000. However, this year, it has been allocated half the amount. What kind of rationalisation will they do to enable them conduct the same number of investigations as last year and also have provincial sittings …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You question has been understood.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The amount available will make it possible for us to undertake the tours. That is the answer. That is the rationalisation that we will make.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Deputy Chairperson put the question.

I beg your pardon. I read the wrong figure.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – K139,266,071,013.00)

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Sichilima: Yes, let go, Ken!

Mr Konga tagged his trousers.

Mr Hachipuka: Boma!

Laughter

Mr Konga held his stomach.

Laughter

Mr Konga Boma!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister, your stomach is not Boma.

 Continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I am seeking the support of this august House for the 2009 proposed budget estimates for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

In formulating the proposed budget estimates for 2009, my ministry has drawn from the strength of the identified activities in the Fifth National Development Plan (FND). These activities have a direct impact on wealth creation and poverty alleviation, especially in the rural areas.

Sir, the main focus in the electricity subsector in 2009, will be to increase the electricity generation capacity. The implementation of the Power Rehabilitation Project by Zambia the Electricity Supply Corporation (Zesco) has progressed well and is expected to be completed by the end of 2009.

Through this project, an additional 210 megawatts will be added to the power system. In terms of new projects, the contractor for the Kariba North Bank Extension Project has mobilised and commenced work on site. The implementation of the Itezhi-tezhi Power Project is also underway.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Hon. Kambwili!

Mr Kambwili: I am sorry, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are forcing the hon. Minister to talk. I mean the one you are talking to there.

Mr Konga: Major progress has also been made in preparing the Kafue Gorge Lower Project for implementation. During this year, the main milestones will include decisions on the structure of the project as well as starting legislation of the project developer.

Mr Chairperson, for the Kalungwishi Power Project, the Government is negotiating with the developer of the project. It is expected that by the end of the year, the developer will have commenced the process of project implementation.

Sir, with regard to the Kabompo Gorge Project, the selected developers will carry out the required feasibility studies after which they will proceed to implement it.

In addition to this project, efforts to identify small hydro sites, particularly, in the northern and north-western part of the country will continue.

The Deputy Chairperson: In the northern and …

Mr Konga: I beg your pardon, north-western parts of the country.

Sir, to improve the electricity sub-sector, major efforts in 2009 will be directed towards improving efficiency of the sector, as well as taking steps to further level the playing field for private sector players to enter the electricity sub-sector. Work on developing a grid code which will provide a framework that will allow electricity producers to have accesses to the electricity grid will be finalised.

Sir, to ensure that investment in the sector is attractive, steps to reach cost reflective tariff levels by 2010 will be initiated. This is an important step that will ensure not only the viability and sustainability but also the reliability of the sub-sector. In this connection, I wish to appeal to hon. Members to sensitise their constituents to support this effort in the coming year.

In the petroleum sub-sector, the objective is to ensure security of supply of petroleum products. By and large, supply stability has been achieved, but needs to be maintained. In 2009, the focus will, therefore, be to build on the progress made so far as well as ensure equity in the price of fuel between urban and rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of increasing storage capacity will continue to receive serious attention. For example, a 40,000 metric-tonne diesel storage tank will be completed this year. Another milestone for the sub-sector will be the transfer of the Ndola Fuel Terminal of the Zambia National Oil Company (ZNOC) liquidation to the Government. This will enable the Government to rehabilitate and upgrade the terminal to allow it to serve the country better.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of rural electrification, increasing access to electricity by the majority of the rural population through the Rural Electrification Programme remains a major goal of this Government as outlined in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) and the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP). This is further underpinned by the speech delivered by His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Banda, at the National Assembly at the Official Opening of the Tenth Parliament on 16th January, 2009. 
Sir, the current 23 per cent national access rate to electricity made up of 3.1 per cent of rural access and 48 per cent urban access is unacceptable, as this Government wants to increase these levels especially for the rural population to 50 per cent, starting this year. The funds allocated to the Rural Electrification Programme in the 2009 Budget will contribute to the vision, and I quote, “Electricity for all rural areas by 2030”, as it targets connecting twenty-five rural growth centres that comprise thirty-two basic schools, fourteen rural health centres and other public axillaries.

The electrification of the Kasaba, Nsumbu and Nkamba bays will go a long way in boosting tourism in the Northern Circuit …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: … while the completion of the electrification of Mwatusanga Farming Block will increase the level of farming activities in the central parts of the country, thereby contributing to poverty reduction. As part of the effort to promote the use of renewable energy sources, the programme of installing solar home systems in twenty-one chiefs’ palaces throughout the country that did not benefit from the earlier project will continue. Twenty-two basic schools in most parts of the country will also be targeted. Feasibility studies at the three mini-hydro sites in the North-Western and Luapula provinces will also be initiated. The Rural Electrification Authority will also ensure that the nine rural electrification projects tendered for implementation in 2008 at an estimated cost of K18 billion are completed by the end of May, 2009.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 27th February, 2009.