DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 3rd November, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PRINTING OF THE ZAMBIAN CURRENY

162. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) which company was awarded the contract to print the Zambian currency, Kwacha, from 2001 to 2008;

(b) what the duration of the current contract was; and

(c) how much was spend on printing the Kwacha from 2001 to 2008.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the names of the companies that were contracted to print the Zambian currency between 2001 and 2008 are:

(i) De La Rue;

(ii) Canadian Banknote Company;

(iii) Francais Charles Abentiur;

(iv) South African Banknote Company; and

(v) Gieseke and Devrient.

Mr Speaker, the duration for all the contracts discussed above is three years. The current contracts commenced in 2007 and will expire at the end of 2009.

Mr Speaker, a total of K263.75 billion has been spent on printing the currency between 2001 and 2008.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, in the past seven years, there have been about five companies that were contracted to print the Zambian Kwacha. May I know why the Government has been switching from one company to the other?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, the issue of which companies are permitted to print our currency at each particular time depends on a number of issues, but all the companies that are indicated here are all world-class renowned that every other Central Bank in the world uses.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the company which prints small denominations is different from the one which prints bigger notes such as the K50,000.00. Why is it like that?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, it depends on the conveniences that are involved. I am sure the hon. Member for Chipili is aware that some of the lowest denominations such as a K1,000.00 are polymer notes. In other words, they are made out of plastic. Not every currency printing company in the world uses plastics. Clearly, if you are printing the small denomination notes, you go to those who have the capacity and technology to print polymer notes. The higher the denomination of the notes, the higher the security features required because there is no risk in terms of people attempting to forge that kind of note. Therefore, you tend to go for companies whose security features are more pronounced. As I said earlier on, all these are internationally renowned companies and we are quite happy to use them.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, could we learn form the hon. Minister what the consequences are of maintaining one company to print the Kwacha as has been the tradition since independence when we maintained Thomas De La rue was.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, let me repeat that there has been no 100 per cent dependence on Thomas De La Rue. The hon. Deputy Minister mentioned four other companies such as the Canadian Banknote Company, Francais Charles Abeutiur, South African Banknote Company and Gieseke and Devrient. Therefore, in addition to Thomas De La Rue, there are four other companies that have been utilised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker

ROAD DEVELOPMENT FUND AGENCY FUNDS

163. Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning how much money had been released to the Road Development Agency (RDA) through the National Road Fund Agency to enable RDA carry out its core mandate from 2005 to date, year by year.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that from 2005 to date, the allocation and funding for road construction and rehabilitation is as follows:

Year Budget  Releases  Percentage to 
 (K’billion) (K’billion) Budget (%) 

 2005  126.71  202.75   160.0
 
2006  357.88  247.58      69.2
 
2007  357.88  355.81      99.4
 
2008  501.38  495.15       98.8
 
2009  715.45  697.18       97.4
 
Total  2,059.31 1.998.47      97.0

Sir, the releases for the same period are from domestically generated resources from earmarked revenues and the Government’s contribution. The earmarked revenues relate to fuel levy and road user charges such as road taxes and fees.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is not high time they quadrupled this figure to address the serious backlog in the road sector.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I do agree that there is a need to do more. However, these are the amounts that have been available. As the hon. Member can see, the Government has been taking the road sector very seriously. That is why the percentages of the releases have been very close to 100 per cent. This is within the means that have been available to the Government. If we were to do more, it might mean that we forego some of the programmes that we ask for. For example, if we forego the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), then we can allocate more money to roads.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the delay of releasing funds to the RDA has a negative effect on the road works. Are there any plans to release funds to RDA on time?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the delay that is being spoken about is not always in execution. For example, if we look at the year 2009, by October, we had released 97 per cent of the money. October is about two months before the end of the year and 97 per cent of the allocation to roads has been released. Sometimes, what causes delays is the issue of procurement. However, we have agreed with our colleagues that we ensure that when the Budget is presented to Parliament, as it has been done now, the tendering process can start because tendering is not a commitment. You can exhaust all the procurement processes so that once the Budget is approved, that aspect of tendering will have been dealt with already.

Sir, the other delay has been due to the fact that in the previous years, we only approved the budgets at the end of March or beginning of April. This means that in the first quarter of the year, no amount of money could be released for capital projects.

In summary, Mr Speaker, I would say that there are a number of factors that may have caused delay in the past, but we have been addressing these factors including the time of the presentation of the Budget and requesting the line ministries to complete the tendering process before the Budget is actually approved.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, one of the major reasons of the delay is the way the money is collected by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). Are there any plans to send the money from ZRA straight to the National Roads Fund Agency (NRFA) instead of sending that money straight to Account No. 99?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, proper accountability requires that once the money has been collected by the collecting agency, which is ZRA in this particular instance, it must pass through an account so that we can trace its movement. The money collected from the dedicated revenue sources is not kept long by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. It is always released on time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the job of the National Roads Fund Agency is to disburse funds to the RDA. Are there any intentions by the Government to transfer that responsibility to RDA?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, that issue is not yet under active consideration by the Government.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the ministry can disburse the money directly to RDA, I would like to know the relevance of the National Roads Fund Agency?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Are you not just duplicating the functions by creating a higher body that is consuming money that is supposed to be expended on the repair of roads?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I think the argument presented by the hon. Member is not logically sound because …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: … if we were to follow it through, we might as well say why does the Ministry of Finance and National Planning not pay him directly and by pass Parliament?

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Institutions have specific utilities and usages. If it will be determined in future that there is no need for it, then it can be abolished. For now, it is there and it is useful.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, in as much as I appreciate that fuel levy is a very important revenue to the Government, would it not be prudent for us, at this stage, to reconsider channelling that money directly to the maintenance of roads as it is done in other countries such as France?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, that is precisely what happens. Each year, out of the budget for roads, a certain percentage is put aside just for maintenance of roads. The other portion that remains is the one that is utilised for other purposes such as construction of new roads. Therefore, that is already being done.

I thank you, Sir.

INTRODUCTION OF MAXIMUM TONNAGE ON ROADS AND RAILWAYS

164. Mr Kakusa (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) whether the Government had any plans to introduce maximum tonnage on particular stretches of roads so that at such points, cargo exceeding the set tonnage should be transported by rail to save roads and, if so, what the distance of the stretches would be; and

(b) when the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ) would repair the rail tracks to save the roads in the country from damage by heavy trucks.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, the law governing maximum tonnage and axle loads is already in place and is enshrined in Statutory Instrument No. 28 of the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2007. According to the law, the maximum Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is 55 tonnes for heavy vehicles and this is a legal requirement that must be obeyed by transporters.

Sir, the limits are; one axle 8 tonnes; two axles 18 tonnes; three axles 24 tonnes; and the maximum vehicle length is 22 metres.

The Road Development Agency has a number of weighbridges on major roads where heavy vehicles are weighed in order to comply with these requirements. Those who do not comply are fined and excess weight offloaded.

The Railway Systems of Zambia has been undertaking repairs on the railway infrastructure in order to improve its efficiency and operations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether RSZ has any plans to collect all the litter of railway steel that is lying about all the way from Livingstone through the middle of Zambia to Chingola which could be properly utilised by recycling. Are there any proper plans to utilise this steel which is going to waste?

Dr Musonda: And Luanshya!

Mr Mubika: Kambwili!

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, we would give the hon. Member a more informed reply if that question were asked formally so that we can get into the detailed plans of RSZ with regard to that specific item that has been asked.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how fines are paid at weighbridges because at one time, a vehicle from Botswana was impounded …

Mr Speaker: Order!

We do not want stories. Ask your question.

Laughter

Mr Nsanda: When is the barter system of payment where when a vehicle from another country is impounded that country also impounds vehicles from Zambia as a way of payment going to end?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that particular question concerns the responsibilities of my colleague the hon. Minister of Works and Supply who deals specifically with weighbridges. However, according to Statutory Instrument No. 28, the fines are not to be paid in barter form, but specified currencies and in this case, it is the Kwacha and the United States dollar.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the cost benefit arising from the fines charged on excess weight is and how much is apportioned to maintenance of roads because I have a road in mind in Kitwe that goes round …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Can you ask your question?

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, my question is what do we get from the fees that we raise from excess weight in comparison with what goes towards the maintenance of damaged roads?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that question is similar to the question asked by the hon. Member for Chimwemwe. Matters dealing with weighbridges are the responsibility of RDA under the Ministry of Works and Supply. The Ministry of Communications and Transport is not in a position, at this stage, to give an informed response to such a question. Therefore, I would advise the hon. Member to direct that question to the Ministry of Works and Supply.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, one of the reasons the bulk carriers have opted to use road transport against railway transport is the failure of the concession between the Railways Systems of Zambia and the Government. Is the Government doing anything to revive this concession or cancel it altogether?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the Government is not working along the lines the hon. Member is insinuating, but we are discussing with RSZ to have it maintain the railway system in accordance with the concession that has been signed. These discussions are on going.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, if I remember correctly, at one time, the late President angrily talked about the Railway Systems of Zambia and that he would cancel the concession, but then suddenly all went dead. Is the Government having serious problems reviewing this contract so that we can have a system that can work for the country better than what is currently obtaining?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the most prudent process is engagement with the company that is responsible for the railway line. We inspect the railway line and then hold the company accountable for what we see as major constraints or defects that ought to be attended to by the company. That is the most prudent approach at this point in time and then we can take corrective measures as problems arise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is very happy with the performance of the concession agreement between RSZ and the Government.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, it is not a question of my being happy, but that of holding the company accountable to the concession, which is what we are doing by engaging the company through discussing what is wrong and what could be improved.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, almost all the portions where there are permanent road blocks, the road has deformed, forming very big bumps which are a danger to motorists. I would like to find out what the ministry is doing to correct that situation?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I did not really understand what the question was aiming at. Are the roadblocks creating bumps and the hon. Member would like to find out what is being done about it? It is not clear to me.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, the Railway Systems of Zambia have failed to maintain the lights at railway crossings. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the Government will compel RSZ to build toilets for the people guarding the railway crossings.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the key operational principle is that of improvement. Improving the railway service in all its dimensions, of course, is indicated in the concession. This is clearly what we are doing by holding the company to all the prescriptions that are in the concession.

I thank you, Sir.

MINERAL PROSPECTING IN LOCHNIVAR NATIONAL PARK AND KAFUE FLATS

165. Mr Hamududu asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development whether there were any firms prospecting for minerals in the Lochnivar National Park and the Kafue Flats in Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency and, if so, what the names of the firms were and for what minerals they were prospecting.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, three firms are prospecting for minerals in the Lochnivar National Park and Kafue Flats. The firms are:

Licence No.  Licence Holder    Mining

12530-HQ-LPL Dongwe Minerals Zambia Lt  Gypsum
13263-HQ-LPL Albidon Zambia Ltd  Copper, iron, cobalt, silver, tin, uranium, zinc, platinum, and gold.
13445-HQ-LPL Albidon Zambia Ltd   Copper, iron, cobalt, silver,
tin, uranium, zinc, platinum, and gold.

However, the House may wish to know that in addition to the aforementioned prospecting licences, the following small-scale mining licences exist in the area:

Licence Holder   Mining

Zaccheus N. Namoya   Quartz, amethyst, emeralds
     Gold
Brebner Changala Gypsum
Platitude Investment Ltd  Gypsum
Hamagwe Investment Ltd Amethyst

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister say that mining activities are taking place. Therefore, I would like to find out whether it is true that mining is really taking place and since there is prospection of gypsum, has gypsum been exhausted in the area for Nabombe Mine for them to continue prospecting since the investor is reviving mining activities in the Lonchivar National Park?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, the response that has been given by the hon. Deputy Minister is that there are two mining companies that are prospecting in the Kafue Flats and Lonchivar National Park and that there are four mining companies. With regard to gypsum, what has been stated in the response is what our records say, but we need to make a follow up to ensure that the activities are actually taking place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am aware that this Government divided this country and gave prospecting rights to a few selected international companies including Albidon that enjoys the rights to prospect in the Southern Province. Going by the performance of Albidon Mine in the recent past, has the Government thought about removing that restriction so that the province can be opened up to other players to prospect?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to set the record straight. This Government did not select a few international companies in granting mining rights. Anybody is free in this country to apply for mining rights, including prospecting licences.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether they are clear about the definitions of mining and prospecting. This is because when they give prospecting licences, people proceed to engage in mining activities. Is there anybody checking whether the companies are mining or prospecting because most of them are mining?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the activities that can be undertaken under prospecting and mining licences are clearly spelt out in the Act. Those who may be engaged in mining activities while prospecting, may be doing so illegally, but, sometimes, some material may be moved so that some special metallurgical works are carried out as some prospecting is done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, recently, Chilanga Cement Plc. increased the price of cement and one of the reasons they gave was that gypsum, which is one of the inputs in the production of cement was not in supply since the Chambeshi Smelter which used to supply gypsum was closed and that, currently, they are importing it. In view of this, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister why we are allowing Chilanga Cement Plc. to use that as a reason for increasing the price of cement and yet, in Monze, there are other companies mining gypsum.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I have difficulty answering the hon. Member, considering that the question relates purely to business.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development whether the companies that are mining gypsum and some precious stones in the area are paying tax, arising from the fact that, in his answer, he said that he had to go back and find out if at all they had proceeded to engage in mining activities.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that my ministry is only concerned with area charges and the domain of taxes is for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

_________{mospagebreak}

BILL

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Supreme Court and High Court (Number of Judges) (Amendment) Bill, 2009

___________________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 10 ─ (Police and Prisons Service Commission ─ K2,593,733,057)

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to present the 2010 Estimates of Expenditure for the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Hon. Members of the House may wish to know that the Police and Prisons Service Commission was established under Section 7 (c) of the Service Commission’s Act No. 24 of 1991.

Mr Chairperson, some of the functions of this commission are to undertake the following:

(a) carry out functions directed to it by His Excellency the President;

(b) appoint persons to hold or act in the office of the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(c) admit officers to a permanent and pensionable establishment in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(d) promote officers to higher ranks in the police and prisons services;

(e) establish disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in such offices and remove any persons from exercising the functions of their offices in the police and prisons services;

(f) review appeals submitted by officers against punishments imposed on them departmentally or by the responsible officer as provided for under the Police and Prisons Service Commission Regulation No. 42;

(g) decide on the requirement and normalise resignations of officers in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(h) consider the granting and distribution of pension benefits accruing to deceased estates;

(i) direct on the compensation of the officers who die or get injured in accidents arising out of and in the course of duty; and

(j) consider the transfer of officers arising out of the exigencies of the service.

Mr Chairperson, for 2009, the commission’s budget was K2,367,169,518. The commission has, so far, managed to discharge its mandate within this resource envelope. During the year, the commission processed confirmations in appointments, retirements, disciplinary cases and re-instatements as per its mandate.

The 2010 budget is based on the Fifth National Development Plan strategic focus which includes the retention and employment of police and prisons officers. The commission also intends to undertake more tours in order to attend to all pending staff matters as a way of motivating police and prisons officers and henceforth retain and attract them to work in rural areas. The commission’s budget for next year is K2,593,733,057, which is higher than the 2009 budget. I urge this august House to approve this budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, allow me to say a few things on this important vote. When we talk about the Zambia Police Service, we are talking about a cadre of professionals who are very committed to keeping the peace of this nation. It is for this reason that we should support the Zambia Police Service properly. In order to do so financially, the Government must take measures to ensure that it does not have an invisible hand in the operations of the police service.

When I look at the police service, I see a situation where we seem not to have supported our officers in the way we are supposed to. Despite making a provision for the rehabilitation of police camps, …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, it is not my wish to interrupt my in-law, but is he in order to debate the police service when we are actually dealing with the commission? I need your guidance or maybe he can change and talk about the commission.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Mukanga, debate and take that point of order into consideration.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I think this commission is supposed to take the necessary steps to improve the conditions of service for the police and prisons officers. However, we see a situation where things are not running the way they are supposed to. Hence, I would like to urge this Government to increase the allocation to this commission so that it works properly.

I have seen that funds have been provided in the Yellow Book for provincial tours to be undertaken by this commission. I, however, think this allocation is too insufficient. This Government was supposed to provide enough funds to ensure that the commission visits each and every province properly. The funds that have been provided for this exercise will not be adequate for the commission to visit all provinces and see what is happening on the ground. It is important, therefore, that we provide this commission with the necessary requirements to ensure that it operates properly.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to also talk about the conditions of service for the police and prisons officers. In order for us to ensure that we get good results from them, there is a need for better conditions of service and proper uniforms to be provided to these officers countrywide. In my own constituency, which has a prison in Mufulira, I see a situation where these officers do not have proper uniforms. It is unfortunate that we have a commission that is failing to look after its officers.

It is important therefore that we provide the necessary requirements for this commission to operate properly. I am sure this commission is also responsible for providing transportation in prisons. It is important that the commission ensures that there is adequate transport for the movements and operations of prison warders.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I would like to thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I believe in calling a spade a spade and not calling a spade a pick for the sake of creating an impression. This commission has failed the police. Police officers do not belong to any union, but their conditions of service are very poor. It is the responsibility of this commission to make sure that our police officers are paid well.

 Mr Chairperson, there was a very bad incident in my constituency where a police officer went to exchange the mealie-meal that the Government gives to the police with fish because he did not have relish at home.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: In the process of crossing the Makoma Dam, this police officer capsized and died. Why should a police officer die for the sake of going to exchange mealie-meal for fish? If this commission has failed to fight for better conditions of service for the policemen, it is better to abolish it and let the police belong to a union that can fight to better their conditions of service.

Mr Chairperson, coming to the housing units, police officers live in houses that do not befit a Zambian worker. Why should we allow such a situation to prevail? Of course, the Government has said that it is building houses, but building twenty-eight houses against a population of about 1,000 police officers is a drop in the ocean. This commission must wake up, otherwise, we are not going to support the budget for the commission next year.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I only have one item to discuss under this vote. Contrary to what my colleague Hon. Kambwili has said, I think it is the Government that requires to wake up because these commissions are established in order to enhance efficiency on the part of the organs that they represent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, three months ago, I stated on the Floor of this House that in the entire Southern Province, all the police camps and prisons had been disconnected from the most essential commodity, water. The officers who live in the camps in the province live in squalor. They do not enjoy the amenities that human beings require. Most of the police camps have no electricity because of the non-payment of bills. These prison camps have got no water. In Mazabuka, for instance, a group of farmers discovered that at Mazabuka Central Police, the situation had degenerated beyond what any human being could imagine. Upon this discovery, they decided to sink a borehole on behalf of this Government and yet the people in it call it a working Government. Farmers put their money together to sink a borehole to help police officers survive.

Sir, it is high time the Government supported the efficient operations of such commissions a little more than the way it has done so far. That was my only comment and I am sure that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is paying attention to what I am saying because he is aware that what I am speaking about is not politics, but the real situation on the ground.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I want to believe that when the President and His Honour the Vice-President are travelling to and from the airport, people who are in charge know what time they are to leave their houses and the time they are to leave the airport.

Mr Chairperson, police officers line up along Addis Ababa Road at 0700 hours in the morning, waiting until the very important persons (VIPs) pass four hours later and when VIPs return at 1800 hours, the poor police …

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, that particular submission does not relate to the commission. It is a discussion on the police who are under a head which is yet to be discussed. Is the hon. Member debating in order to discuss the police? I seek your serious ruling on that matter?

The Deputy Chairperson: My serious ruling is that this particular head concerns the Police and Prisons Commission. His Honour the Vice-President outlined the functions of this commission. Really, if we have to touch the question of the police, it must be in relation to conditions …

Hon. Opposition Members (as there was a power failure in the Chamber): Konga!

The Deputy Chairperson: … of service and other activities outlined by His Honour the Vice-President except that you should not talk about police who have been given certain security responsibilities. If you are relating your submission to the conditions of service, proceed.

Mrs Musokotwane: Sir, I believe that the standing on the roadside is part of the conditions of service of the police, is it not so?

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue, please.

Mrs Musokotwane: Sir, I know that one of their conditions of service is to ensure that when the VIPs are passing on the road they are protected. The conditions of service need to limit the time that the police can stay by the roadside as they wait for the VIPs to pass. They should not spend the whole day waiting by the roadside when the VIP …

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I am extremely worried. Is this august House in order to conduct business in darkness which has never happened in this House and is putting His Honour the Vice-President at risk? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We have to make progress. Efforts are being made to rectify the situation. The only difference with this is that it involves hearing and we can hear what she is saying and so can the hon. Member.

May the hon. Member, continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I know that they have to protect us, but can we take certain considerations into account because they are also human beings. We cannot make them stand by the roadside for four to six hours before a VIP passes. Since we know the times the VIPs are going and coming back from the airport, we can reduce the time police officers stand on the roadside.

Transport should be provided to take them back home from where they were waiting from. Currently, they have to walk from the police stations and walk back after the VIPs has passed. Those are very poor conditions of service.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: (as power failure continued) Konga!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Now we have a problem, but we still have two more hon. Members who want to debate.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us remain seated and give ourselves five minutes while they are trying to rectify the situation. I suspend business for five minutes, but we should remain seated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Konga!

Business was suspended from 1528 hours until 1535 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: When business was suspended, the hon. Member for Katombola had just finished contributing.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. As we debate the Prisons and Police Service, I would like …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

You may continue.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Yes, Police and Prisons Service Commission. I would like to start by commending the gallant men and women who have been performing under very difficult conditions. The commission is supposed to look into the engagement, confirmation and firing of its members. We all know that the police, like the teachers, are scattered all over the country. Therefore, for the commissioners to serve better, they need better conditions. They must be provided with transport and need to work in a conducive environment. We have, for example, commissions such as the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) in this country. When we look at the members and conditions under which they operate, they cannot be compared to the Police and Prisons Service Commission. If we are to support these people, we must first make sure that they have adequate resources to do their job.

Another issue that I would like to talk about is the indiscipline in the Police and Prisons Service which the Government is supposed to look at. Sometimes, people can be indisciplined when the commission does not act quickly. I think if we are going to have a proper Police and Prisons Service, the commissioners need to work hard. If the commissioners walk to work while those they supervise drive beautiful vehicles, how can they be respected and regarded as their employers? It is very difficult. It is important that if we have a body like this, we pay attention to the way staff looks and the way they go about their business. We cannot expect them to be respected if they ask for lifts. I know some commissions that ask for vehicles from the ministries. Commissions are supposed to have their own facilities if they are to act independently. What I am saying is that we should make sure that, in future, we give them enough funds so that they can have the integrity and respect that they deserve.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, since most of the hon. Members did not understand the functions of the commission …

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I just wish to thank everybody …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … for the support. Only Hon. Sinyangwe understood the functions of the commission.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is not the function of the commission to give uniforms and improve conditions of service.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 10/01 - (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Headquarters –K2,593,733,057).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, we are just talking about effective operation of this commission. May I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K30,635,837. Why is there a reduction from K111,410,293 to only K30,635,837?

May I also have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration –K855,231,711. Why is there a reduction from K1,027,101,325 to K855,231,711.  How do you expect this commission to function if you are reducing its allocations?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, the provision on Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K30,635,837 is required to pay other emoluments to members of staff in the department and the reduction is to cut down on some activities in other departments. The same applies to the question on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K855,231,711.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 01 – HIV/AIDS – K13,253,040. There has been a reduction from K39,910,040 to only K13,253,040. I would like to find out why there is a reduction when the pandemic is still rampant. I would like to find out what is happening and what they are thinking.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, this activity in most of the ministries is an ongoing one. Therefore, some activities have been done and as a result, the allocation has been reduced in order to look at some other departments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, we are concerned with the reduction. All the hon. Members who have debated have expressed concern over the conditions of service. May I have clarification on Programme 5, Activity 01 – Long/short Term Training – K20,500,000. This allocation has been reduced from K24,060,000 to K20,500,000. Can His Honour the Vice-President explain the reduction?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, when staff reduces, expenditure also reduces.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Processing of Action Sheets in the Provinces - K329,894,000. According to the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, when staff reduces, expenditure also reduces. However, there is an increase here from K167,540,168 to K329,894,000 when staff has reduced. Can he explain the increase? 

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I said, earlier on, that the reduction is due to some other activities. Therefore, this is the programme that has been shifted to Processing of Action Sheets in the Provinces. Hence the increase.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K535,815,105,013) and VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K247,856,741,144).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for availing me the opportunity to present to this august House a policy statement for the Ministry of  Home Affairs on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year 2010.

Mr Chairperson, the guiding mission of the Ministry of Home Affairs is to effectively and efficiently provide and maintain an accountable and transparent internal security system in order to create an environment in which peace, stability and justice prevail for sustainable socio-economic development for the people of Zambia.

 The ministry’s mission is a safer and more secure Zambia by the year 2030, as enshrined in the National Vision 2030.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry’s operations are carried out by the following specialised agencies or departments:

 (i) Zambia Police Service;

(ii) Drug Enforcement Commission;

(iii) Zambia Prisons Service;

(iv) Department of Immigration;

(v) Department of National Registration, Passports and Citizenship;

(vi) National Archives of Zambia;

(vii) Commissioner for Refugees;

(viii) Home Affairs Research, Planning and Information Department;

(x)  Office of the Registrar of Societies; and

(xi) Police Public Complaints Authority.

All these departments contribute in one way or the other in maintaining peace and security of this country. 

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has been described by many as an oasis of peace. This is not by accident, but because the people of Zambia have remained resolute in maintaining this status quo.

Sir, it is a fact that internal security is a pre-requisite for the continuity of a stable Government and country in which both local and foreign investments are allowed to contribute to national development in a peaceful environment.

Further, Mr Chairperson, it is only in a peaceful country where respect and enjoyment of human rights are guaranteed to the fullest. As a ministry, we have chosen to uphold our resolve of making Zambia a peaceful country through the use of contemporary community policing and other pro-active crime prevention strategies.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of crime prevention, the Zambia Police Service plays a leading role in the maintenance of internal security in our country. The importance of internal security to national stability and prosperity cannot be over-emphasised.

Over the past years, the Zambia Police Service has improved its operations in order to fight crime and make Zambia a safer place to live in.

Mr Chairperson, to further strengthen the ability of the police to fight crime, the Zambia Police Service has established special support groups in most divisions. These support groups shall deal with public disturbances and disorders without always waiting for reinforcement from the Headquarters. Previously, these units used to move from Lusaka and Kitwe to cover the whole country whenever public disturbances and disorder occurred. It is gratifying to note that even the situation that we had a few days ago, on the nomination day in Solwezi, police were able to contain the situation …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mangani: … without any reinforcement.

Further, the ministry shall continue with the programme of acquiring modern communication equipment. This equipment will assist the police in monitoring, communicating and attending to crime reports promptly in most of the crime-prone areas.

The Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA), has also continued to deal with issues related to abuse and excesses such as brutality. This ensures that there is a continuous process of self-cleansing and upholding of human rights.

Mr Chairperson, another area that we handle is the issue relating to drug trafficking and money laundering. In the quest to rid the country of various criminal elements, the Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), has continued to control and prevent illegal production, trafficking and abuse of narcotics and psychotropic substances. Other programmes have covered money laundering activities and provided rehabilitation services to drug addicts.

Sir, I wish to inform this august House that the upcoming 2010 Soccer World Cup in South Africa leaves Zambia vulnerable to drug and human trafficking and money laundering due to its geo-political location in the Southern African Region. Hence, in 2010, the DEC shall enhance its operations in order to deal with these growing challenges of drug trafficking and money laundering.

Further, the ministry shall construct a treatment and rehabilitation centre for drug addicts. Again, I am grateful that the 2010 Budget will help us deal with the main challenges of organised crime.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the Prisons Service, shall continue to implement the Parole System as it has proved highly successful because it is contributing to decongesting prisons. Through this system, inmates serving longer sentences, but are remaining with only six months, are to be released so that prisons are decongested. So far, seventy-nine inmates have been released under the Parole System and none of them reverted to their old habits.

Sir, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Home Affairs has developed a three-year capacity building programme aimed at training and retraining officers. This programme aims at equipping and sharpening the skills of officers in the ministry in security matters and certain managerial skills to make them become proactive to fight crime.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to infrastructure development, in line with the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), I am glad to inform the House that the Ministry of Home Affairs is committed to continuing with its programme of purchasing and constructing housing units for the Zambia Police Service. You may wish to know that over 6,000 police officers live in rented accommodation outside police camps out of roughly, 15,000. Consequently, houses had to be constructed in various part of the country.

Sir, I wish to inform this august House that the initial 500 units being constructed in Kasama, Chipata, Livingstone and Ndola at a cost of K156 billion will soon be ready for commissioning. Indeed, I am grateful that this budget has supported this infrastructure development plan.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, with regard to the rehabilitation of infrastructure, in order to improve officers’ living and working conditions, the police have continued to rehabilitate police stations, cells, possibly where Hon. Kambwili stayed at one time,

Hon. Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir!

Laughter

Mr Mangani:  … camp houses, roads, sewer and water reticulation systems.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: In 2009, a number of houses in the police camps were rehabilitated along with nine police stations and cells.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: My ministry intends to continue with the programme according to the availability of resources, until the state of the existing infrastructure is brought to acceptable standards.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: I rise on a serious point of order!

Hon. Members: Microphone!

Mr Kambwili: It cannot switch on.

Mrs Phiri: They have killed them!

The Deputy Chairperson: If you go ahead with your point of order, it will not be recorded.

Mr Kambwili: Then I will have to stop.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, continue.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: I thank you, Mr Chairperson …

Hon. Opposition Members: Buloshi!

Hon. Government Members: Wila yangala na bakulu!

Laughter

Mr Mangani: It is part of policing.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: The Ministry of Home Affairs is also committed to rehabilitating and upgrading prisons, border controls and some district registration offices countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Home Affairs shall also continue with the staff housing project at the Mukobeko Maximum Prison. Twenty housing units have been completed so far. Again, the 2010 Budget shall enable the ministry to continue improving the living conditions of officers and inmates through this rehabilitation programme.

Sir, with regard to the exhibition gallery, the building to accommodate the permanent exhibition gallery at the National Archives of Zambia has been completed. In 2010, the gallery shall be fully equipped and commissioned. The display of the archival holdings shall give a visual guide to Zambia’s rich heritage.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of mobile registration is very famous and my ministry, through the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship Office, commenced the first phase of the Mobile Registration Exercise in June, this year, in the three provinces namely; Eastern, Western and North-Western. The exercise involved officers issuing Green National Registration Cards to eligible Zambians who had attained sixteen years of age in the remotest parts of the country where district registration offices are not available.

The second phase of this exercise to cover Central, Northern, and Southern provinces has just commenced. The remaining provinces will be catered for in the third phase next year. Again, I am pleased to report that the 2010 Budget has supported this exercise.

Sir, with regard to the refugee situation, owing to the improved general security situation in our neighbouring countries, notably Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo, Zambia has not experienced large-scale influxes of refugees for a while now. The focus of my ministry has been repatriation of Angolan and Congolese refugees. Though many refuges have already returned to their countries of origin, there are still many who have remained in Zambia.

To this end, in 2010, my ministry will continue with the repatriation exercise of Congolese refugees and will also re-engage the Government of Angola and the United Nations High Commissioner of Refugees (UNHCR) with a view to reviving the repatriation exercise for Angolan refugees.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to commend officers in my ministry for their dedication and commitment to duty. Zambia was, last week, celebrating forty-five years of independence in a peaceful environment. This can be attributed to, among other reasons, the hard work put in by these officers ….

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: … with the support of my Government in enforcing law and order. Next year, the Ministry of Home Affairs shall work even harder to control and maintain peace. With the support of all peace-loving Zambians, our country shall continue to be the haven of peace it is renowned for.

I thank you, Sir

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate this all important …

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to apologise to the hon. Member, who is on the Floor of the House for the interruption. However, the point of order is of national interest.

All of us know that education and health are very important. As parents, when we give birth to our children, we want the best for them. We want them to surpass the level we are at when they grow up. Through you, Sir, I would like to find out from this Government whether it is in order to stop 200 students at the University of Zambia (UNZA) who did not pay tuition fees from attending classes, especially at a crucial time of writing their examinations. Why did they not do this earlier? Is the Government in order to curtail our children’s future, some of whom are in their fourth year? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Important as the point of order is, I would like to advise the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali to put it in writing and raise it as a matter which requires urgent attention.

I thank you.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was introducing this subject on what I consider a vital ministry, without thinking that anyone of the hon. Ministers are less than the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I thought that I should debate this particular ministry with the passion it deserves.
 
Mr Chairperson, I would like to clearly state that in any country, the Ministry of Home Affairs is always the most important organ at policy level in issues of security. I have no problem supporting the budget that I believe the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs agreed on in Cabinet to be brought before this House for approval. I have no problem with this.

However, I would like them to understand that whereas we are a nation of equals in terms of importance of deliberations or delivery of services, security is non-negotiable at both the personal and national levels. This country has been at peace for forty-five years because our founding fathers, until the last decade, so decided. They stood firm on the security of this country by funding the armed forces, which are the Zambia Air Force, Zambia Intelligence Service, Zambia Police and, to some extent, the Prisons Service Commission. It is a rational, well calculated and forward looking situation.

Mr Chairperson, this is an under budget. It gives a very bad name to the Ministry of Home Affairs, especially the police. We are going to allocate money that we know is insufficient to this ministry for it to carry out its operations and I regret this situation.

Secondly, I want to debate security in Pemba. Young people have been shot simply for cattle rustling. People have been shot simply because somebody from Mabenga’s province wants to steal a cow.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Matongo: Young people are killed just because somebody wants to take some cattle from them to sell. I have personally experienced this.

Dr Scott interjected.

Mr Matongo: He is more concerned with pigs than cattle so I will excuse Hon. Dr Guy Scott.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: I will excuse him.

Mr Chairperson, I want to put this clearly to you. Just one and a half months ago, there were a number of killings in Singani area in Choma, the Hamaundu area in Pemba and parts of Mbabala. The police did not have the right vehicles to investigate these killings and genuinely did not have fuel because of under budgeting, therefore, we, the people in Pemba, decided to help them. I hope that the hon. Minister will refer to this when he answers. We went all out asking the Zambia National Service, the Office of the President and the police in Choma, Mazabuka and Pemba, for help. I do not need to praise myself because I was elected to provide this kind of leadership in Pemba.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Matongo: You do not need to. The truth is clear. We had to provide our personal vehicles to help the Ministry of Home Affairs to track down the murderers of the two young people, aged twenty-four and twenty-nine years. It took the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to have a meeting with me, the police to admit the inadequacies of the provisions and requisites that we require, in the presence of my only friend in this Chamber, Hon. Hachipuka …

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

Mr Matongo: You are not my friend.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Admittedly, there were difficulties, but, because we worked together, the case was solved. The police in Pemba, with minimum assistance, from all of us, including the hon. Deputy Minister, hon. Minister and the Permanent Secretary, whom I commend, got moving. I am pleased to say that, as I am talking now, the culprits have been apprehended. By allowing more money to go into areas of expenditure that are crucial to the security of this country, we would be motivating the police and the Public Service.

 I would like to inform my colleagues that the police station in Pemba has been there since 1952, but it has never seen a brush of paint. You can only imagine how old I was in 1952.

The muJoni where I grew up in Pemba was the Sergeant-in-Charge.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo:  You were born in the compound. Therefore, you do not know.

Laugher

Mr Matongo: He marched from the top of Pemba …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: You are spoiled. Therefore, you should listen to us because we have been at it the hard way.

Mr Chairperson, I have to deal with these people.

Laughter

Mr Matongo:  When the MuJoni, the sergeant walked, marched from the top of Pemba to the bottom of Pemba where the camp was, there was order by presence.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: There is nothing that has gone wrong with our policemen. All they have lost is confidence because they are under funded, particularly from 1991 to date. In our time, we used to pay attention to the security wings, even if it meant getting money from the parastatals to fund the police, the army and all institutions of security. This is what secured the security we have enjoyed so far. We used to do that. If you are doubting, you to can ask Hon. Vernon Mwaanga.

 Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, we worked as a team and when dealing with security there was no question of being a member of the United Party for National Development (UPND), some other party or the Government.

 Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, I would like the MMD to emulate that because they are not bad characters. They are good people.

 Laughter

Mr Matongo: You should have the tenacity of purpose to deliver where you are required to do so.

The Deputy Chairperson: I wanted to say that the use of the word “character” in that context is unparliamentary. Therefore, use parliamentary Language.

 You may continue.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to apologise for using that word. I have said they seemed to have appreciated.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Be that as it may, we need to stop the violence that we are experiencing in our parties by helping to fund the police and the security agencies all round.

 Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, in MMD, there is violence. In other parties, there is also violence.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, this Government has a duty to small parties, particularly those that are not represented in this Parliament, …

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Matongo: … to lead by example and ensure that when somebody beats you on this cheek, please, offer the other one because you are the Government.

 Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairman, on the issue of violence, I would like to say that all cadres know each other and they share what goes on. I am very concerned that in every campaign that we have, somebody must shed blood. I want to condemn this unreservedly, wherever it comes from.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I have just returned from Mozambique where you graciously sent me to be the Chief of mission …

 Laughter

Mr Matongo: … for the SADC Observer Mission where I headed a fifty-member regional observation mission.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

 

  
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: Honourable Members, in view of this power failure technicality, I suspend business for another ten minutes.

Business was suspended from 1431 hours to 1440 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that I had the privilege, under the hon. Mr Speaker’s instruction, to go to Mozambique.

Fortunately for me and I deserve it. I led a fifty-member SADC delegation to observe the elections for that country. RENAMO would address a meeting at a place such as Arcades, FRERIMO would address a meeting at nearby place such as Manda Hill and MDC would address a meeting at a place in the vicinity such as the University and all using the same road. There was no question of violence. It was peaceful. Therefore, I would like to mention that the hon. Deputy Minister of Defence was also there, leading a team and the Chairman of Elections was also there, leading her team, but of course, the most important team was the one that was led by me and that is, the people’s representatives.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Really, on a serious note, why is it that we have women and, youths and the same disagreements at our rallies and yet we have manifestos, constitutions to sell and leadership qualities to sell? It is only those who are inappropriate and are short of leadership qualities who will go for physic. I would like to appeal to the MMD to show leadership since they are in Government.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: And arrest them.

Mr Matongo: No. Arresting them is not the answer. That is where you precisely go wrong.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: It is precisely that kind of attitude that makes our democracy and elections a mockery. It is precisely the reason why good men like Hon. Mulongoti do not support such ideas. It is precisely for that reason that good men in the Opposition do not support the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: It is for that reason that I want to declare …

 Lieutenant-General Shikapwahsa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I will not allow the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services to raise the point of order because the genesis of your wanting to raise a point of order is that you were speaking loudly when the hon. Member for Pemba was debating.

The hon. Member may continue

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, we are all good people and nobody was born bad. We were born differently with different shapes and sizes. I believe that this country can actually enjoy peace forty-five years after independence. Having said that, I wish to state that we must avoid political violence. What happened in Solwezi makes a mockery of a reasonably good Government with a few good people. What happened in Solwezi must be condemned.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Sir, we have very good hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers. We also have the Commissioner of Police, Inspector-General of Police, but the act in Solwezi makes very bad reading on the international scene where, in fact, an hon. Minister was looking for some reason to do that. Can we stop that? By the way, when I refer to other parties, I am merely making reference to those small parties that supported the by-elections in the last campaign ...

 Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: … and are part of the MMD …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I thank you very much.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity to add a few words on the debate of the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Sir, Home Affairs, through the various institutions under the ministry, helps to maintain law and order in this country. I would like to think that this maintenance of law and order is applied equally to all corners of the country and to everybody. Alas, Mr Chairperson, this is where things fall flat. We have discussed on the Floor of this House the disparities that are developing in this nation in terms of development, wealth and utilisation of public resources; the disparities between the poor and the rich; the rural and urban areas; and between the high density townships and high cost areas.

I want to be very brief in my discourse this afternoon and talk about the lack of police presence in the rural areas. In so doing, I would like to advise and seek help from the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Rural area dwellers are Zambians like any other who also must be under the protection of the Zambia Police under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

In his debate, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs made reference to the fact that part of their mission is to ensure that both local and foreign investors have an environment that allows them to invest. Be that as it may, I will look at the rural dwellers and specifically focus on those in Luena Constituency and the other parts of the Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, I will specifically refer to cattle rustling which is in our areas. The wealth of the people is reflected in the number of cattle they have. To them, that is a bank. That is what provides them with the animal draught power, money for school requisites and fertiliser in the form of cow dung. However, we have a situation now which is prevailing in all parts of the Western Province, whereby people have to sleep outside the gate of the kraal where the animals are unlike when I was a child when you would pick up a call somewhere and you would all go back to your houses to sleep. Now if they do not sleep outside the kraal, somebody will take them to go and slaughter them and sell them. Our question is: Where are the police?

Hon. Member: Sejani is the leader!

Mr Milupi: Cattle are the people’s wealth and we are talking about people who are already poor. For this reason, I ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that there is a campaign to bring normalcy to the way cattle is handled in the cattle-keeping areas. Mr Chairperson, it is disgraceful that people have to leave the comfort of their houses to go and sleep where animals are just to protect them from thieves and yet we have systems in place. If one has to sell an animal, he/she requires a police permit. To transport an animal from one area to another, one requires a police permit. Are these people who are stealing these animals being assisted by the police or are the police choosing to be ineffective? Sir, this is a serious matter that needs attention.

Mr Chairperson, the other point I would like to bring to the attention of this House and to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is about the provision of protection to the citizens of this country both in rural and urban areas. I know that where I live here in Lusaka, if I have a problem, I will ring the police and they will come and carry out investigations and hopefully conclude those investigations. However, this is not so in rural areas. If there has been a fracas or maybe someone is injured or something is stolen, when a poor villager goes to a police station to seek police indulgence, the police will always ask him/her to provide fuel or transport. This is a case where the poor are being exploited. Let the police service be available to all our people.

Hon. Matongo made reference to an era when we would call the white policemen as maJohni. Few as they were, even rural areas were covered. Matters coming up got the attention of the police, but that is no longer the case. We request you, in carrying out your work, despite the limitation of the budget, to, please, not ignore the rural areas, especially in matters of cattle theft.

The violence that is taking place in the political arena needs to be arrested. Those who are engaged in violence clearly indicate that they have run out of ideas to sell to the people. When you have run out of ideas, the only thing to resort to is your muscle power. That is retarding our progress. Let us, as a nation, go back to a situation where we propound ideas on how to move this country forward. Different parties will have different formulae and it is these ideas that should compete for the minds of the people. Let the best ideas be the basis on which the people select a government into power. It is shameful when any political party engages in violence. It is even more disgraceful if it is a ruling party that does that.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to add my voice to the debate on the Ministry of Home Affairs which is a very important ministry. I will be very brief and only discuss two issues. The first one is on violence.

Sir, somehow, as a country, we seem to be degenerating into a violent State. Unfortunately, very little seems to be done to stop this violence not by the police per say, but by all of us. We have seen the country degenerating into a series of violence and not just physical violence, but also verbal violence. Sometimes, I wonder because it is as if our police wait for instructions from politicians to act …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … even when they know that what one has done is against the law.

Sir, I want to use this opportunity to appeal to the police and the political leadership both on your right and left and to those of their leaders who are outside this House, that this is how countries that have ended up in civil war started.

Hon. Members: Yes! Yes!

Mrs Masebo: We should not take the peace that this country has enjoyed in the last forty-five plus years for granted. However, today, we have heard stories of hon. Ministers and politicians being insulted or being beaten up.

Sir, if you look at the history of this country from 1991, I remember I was at the grassroots of the MMD and that is when the culture of insults started. In the past, a ward chairman was respected in his community. When he went to the market, he was given some eggs as a gift by the marketers because they had respect for him. The insults started at the ward chairperson level and were tolerated. This moved from the ward chairperson to the ministerial level and we entertained that, but it has now reached the Vice-President and President. We have reached a stage where nobody is respected in this country and that is the kind of culture we have developed as a country.

Mr Chairman, what is happening is that if Hon. Masebo is beaten up, those against her will be very happy. They will not condemn it, but will just keep quiet because it is convenient for them. They could even be the ones who sent people to beat up Hon. Masebo. When Hon. Mulongoti is insulted, there are many statements in the press condemning the insults, forgetting that only yesterday, the same people beat up or insulted Hon. Masebo, but because she is not liked, they kept quiet. When Hon. Mulongoti is insulted, there are big headlines of condemnation in the papers and everybody talks about it.

Mr Chairman, that kind of selective condemnation or violence in the country is very dangerous because it will move from Hon. Masebo to Hon. Mulongoti and to the person who is making statements against Hon. Masebo or Hon. Mulongoti. The point I am making is that what is bad is bad. It does not matter whether it is Hon. Dr Scott or Hon. Mabenga who is being insulted, we must condemn it.

Hon. Members: Or Hon. Faustina Sinyangwe!

Mrs Masebo: Or, indeed, Faustina Sinyangwe or Hon. Mpombo ...

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: … Hon. Major Chizhyuka or Hon. Sichilima.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairman that is how violence begins and that is how a country can end up losing control of a situation. At the rate we are going, I can say that 2011 may be a very difficult year for this country. We can end up like Kenya, Zimbambwe, the Democratic Republic of Congo (RDC) or countries where there has been violence which has led to loss of lives. We are forgetting that this is one Zambia, one nation. Although we sit here laughing, tomorrow we may be hacking each other on account of tribe or political affiliation or just looking at somebody’s face.

I am talking as a woman leader. As women, we do not want this culture of violence and I am appealing to all the leaders not to politicise violence because what is wrong is wrong. The police must also be allowed to do their work without interference.

Mr Chairperson, the police must be professional because some of them are not. They look at the complainant and not the complaint. If the one who is complaining is an hon. Member of Parliament, they will listen, but if it is an ordinary citizen from Chongwe or Kanyama, they will ignore the complaint because they want to be seen to be working only when they are dealing with the people in power. That culture is not right. I just want to emphasise the point that truly speaking, we should not take these matters lightly. When Hon. Sichilima is beaten up, hon. Members on the left …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: … come here to make fun of it. I do not think it is funny. We must all, together, condemn it. If we think that Hon. Sichilima is wrong, we must advise him that as a leader, he should not behave in the manner that he did

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairman, I would like to say something about women not participating in elections. How can a mother participate in an election in an environment where you hear people are fighting and insulting each other? How can a woman participate in an election in an environment where people accuse each other of things they do not even have proof of? I would like to appeal to the police to do their job professionally. The police know that if I insult somebody publicly or falsify facts about somebody, they do not need a minister to tell them to act, they must act on their own because the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is not above the law. People say the Government is interfering with the work of the police because they wait for the hon. Minister to tell them what to do even when they know that what has happened is wrong. The police will give an excuse saying, these are politics and that they would not like to interfere in politics. There is nothing political about violence. If somebody beats up or insults somebody, it does not matter whether one is from the Ruling Party or the Opposition, the police must move in and act decisively.

Mr Chairman, lastly, for the police to be successful, they need the support of the citizens they are protecting. Many times, crime is committed by people within our communities and so we must support the police by ensuring that we give to the police information that will help curb crime in the country. We do not expect the police, with this budget, to perform miracles. In Chongwe, there is a lot of crime committed in the Katoba area, but there is no police post there and the Chongwe Police Station, which is the nearest to Katoba, does not have adequate transport. This means the police can only work when we give them the information.

Mr Chairman, some thieves from Lusaka, after stealing, hide the goods they have stolen in the Katoba area and some people could even be harbouring criminals, but that information is not given to the police. The point I would like to emphasise is that with the insufficient budgetary allocation to the police, they need information on crime. I will not talk about increasing the allocation because I know that there will be no change and that is why I keep talking about the money from the mines. I hope that the hon. Minister will change his mind and re-introduce the windfall tax so that we use that money for the development of our country.

Mr Chairman, it is common knowledge that for a long time now, the police do not have adequate transport and their uniforms are not good, but for now, I would like to say that, as citizens, we should work with the police by assisting them with information and transport when it is needed. If you have a husband or son who commits crimes, report him to the police.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to the Police Service. I would like to state categorically that I support the men and women in uniform who have been providing security to us under very difficult conditions. I would like to appeal that the Police Service be supported. I appeal to the Government that the same good service that is being offered to the other security wings of this country be extended to the Police Service.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to state, without fear of any contradiction, that there are bad eggs in the Police Service. The police command must ensure that those policemen and women, who are tarnishing the good image of the police, are stamped out of the Police Service.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, it is not unusual to hear that policemen, who are supposed to provide the requisite security for us, are involved in criminal activities. These bad elements must be rooted out. The Police Service is made up of women and men who have dedicated themselves to providing a service to us under very difficult conditions. It is, therefore, prudent for the Government to ensure that the Police Service is provided with requisite assistance so that they can provide the service to all of us who deserve it.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to condemn the propensity of the MMD Government to abuse the Police Service.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The Police Service has been abused many times, especially during elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not unusual to find a dedicated officer in charge or any senior officer who provides services diligently during elections victimised and transferred to a given area soon after elections. As a result of that failure by the MMD Government to protect the Police Service, most of the policemen in areas where there are by-elections operate in fear. We should not allow that situation to continue. We should not look at the effects, but the root causes of the violence that is occurring in most of these by-elections which are occurring in this country.

Mr Chairperson, if it were not that all the good words have been declared unparliamentary, I would have used them against one hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes, ka Mubika Mubika.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am saying that we should consider the root causes of violence in these by-elections. We are aware that, at times, the police have abated violence in some areas. The discretionary manner of according political parties permits to hold rallies has been questionable in most instances.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not unusual to find that an Opposition party is allowed to hold a political meeting at a certain place and the MMD go to the police and give instructions to have that particular rally that is to held in a particular area cancelled.

Hon. Government Members: Boma.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo, mudala.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, that happened in Solwezi. The MMD thugs, with their collaborators, went to a place where the UPND was having a meeting for which it had legitimate rights to hold a public meeting and started throwing stones.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central in order to call people who are not here to defend themselves thugs? Is it in order?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I have always explained that we, presiding officers, do not want to interject every time, and hence sometimes we let things pass. Now, with that point of order, already you put us in a position that I have no choice, but to agree with the fact that we should use civil language.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I will substitute the term “thugs” with criminals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, if a person misconducts himself criminally, that is ‘thuggery’.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thugs should not be allowed to defend themselves.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think you should make it easier for the Chair by conducting yourself properly.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, I apologise, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, criminals should not be allowed to defend themselves for their criminal activities, and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … only innocent people must be allowed to defend themselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Facts.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was building a point that the police should also be professional in the way they regulate public rallies. They must ensure that they enforce the Public Order Act professionally. The law has changed. There is no law now that requires a political party to obtain a police permit to hold a rally.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Mwiimbu: The law has changed. The political party or any member of the public who wants to hold a public meeting should notify the police within the specified period that is reflected in the Act. However, the police insist that members of the public should seek permission from them to hold a public meeting. No, that is not the law. They are conferring themselves with power which they do not have. That is not correct. We support the police, but I know that, actually, the police are working under very difficult conditions. They are given instructions from someone somewhere.

Hon. Opposition Members: Mangani.

Mr Mwiimbu: That should not be allowed. That is one of the root causes of the violence in some of the by-elections.

Mr Chairperson, if elections are conducted in a free and fair manner, without bias, I doubt whether there would be any violence in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Mwiimbu: You are aware that we started having democratic elections in the year 1991. We did not witness violence and only started noticing violence when this culture of rigging, abusing and frustrating the aspirations of political parties started. Suffice it to say, that should not be allowed.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to concur with my colleagues, Hon. Matongo and Hon. Milupi, pertaining to cattle rustling. We need to protect the poor farmers in the remote areas of this country. People have been complaining about the rampant cattle rustling in these areas, but nothing much has been done about it.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that the perception that some police officers are involved in cattle rustling is changed. There are so many good policemen, but this perception should be nipped in the bud. We should not allow a situation where our police officers, who are supposed to protect the peasant farmers, are perceived to be part of the syndicate of cattle rustling. Cattle rustling is becoming a lucrative business. How can ranching be promoted if cattle rustling is rampant? It is not possible. I have no doubt in my mind that if police officers are given the required resources, they will be able to contain cattle rustling.

The only livelihood that my colleagues and brothers in the Western Province have is ranching and will, therefore, become vulnerable if they cannot be protected. They will think that the Government is not there to protect them, but abuse them. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that our people are protected.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, the issue of bullet proof vests has been talked about in this House since 2001 when I came to Parliament. Why are we failing to give protective clothing to our gallant men and women who are supposed to be protecting us? There are even allegations of corruption pertaining to the procurement of these vests.

The Government must clear the air by ensuring that bullet proof vests are bought. Can you imagine that our poor police women and men are risking their lives for nothing because their conditions of service are actually obnoxious? Why should this be so? We should be seen to be protecting them by buying them bullet proof vests. It is, therefore, my sincere hope that come 1st January, 2010, the police will have bullet proof vests. I am saying come 1st January, 2010 because this issue has been debated for so long and budgets were provided for these bullet proof vests, but they have never been procured.

Hon. UPND Members: Who ‘chewed’ the money?

Mr Mwiimbu: I hear the money was “chewed”.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, it is not me who has said it, I thank you.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, I recognise that we have concentrated on the police even though the Ministry of Home Affairs is a very big ministry that consists of a number of departments such as those dealing with refugees, national registration, immigration, passports, national archives …

Hon. MMD Member: Prisons.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: … and prisons, which is a very important department. I think that it is fair that perhaps we apportion our discussion, in addition to the police, of course, properly. Let me first start by acknowledging the general concern that has been expressed by my colleagues who have debated before me. In making a correction, I would like to say let us accept that violence is not brought about by the police. The police have not politicised themselves. We, the political parties, have politicised the police.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It is only a mind that is ethical which would accept the responsibilities we, as political parties, all share in politicising the police. When it is convenient, we use them to fight against others. As political parties, I think we should all stand up and say no to politicising the police. That is when the real change will start.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Secondly, violence has not started today. It is erroneous to say that. In fact, a long time ago, the Mukaika By-election was very violent. The Mapatizya formula …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … emerged and it too was very violent. The Luangwa By-election in 1993 was also very violent.

Hon. MMD Members: Chawama.

Dr Kalumba: The Chawama Elections were also very violent.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: In fact, as political parties, we have been practicing violence for a long time. It is about time we said no to violence. Let us not suggest that something has changed now and that is what has brought violence. It is only honesty that should force us to admit that we have been practicing violence and say no to it. We celebrated the Mapatizya formula and the chilungalunga or is it chilingalinga somehow …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … and now we should say no to all these instruments of ideological and physical violence.

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalumba left his microphone on.

Mr Muyanda: Switch off your microphone, please.

Dr Kalumba switched off his microphone.

Mr Muyanda: I thank you.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much, indeed, for allowing me to raise a point of order on that hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge. Is he in order not tell this august House that arising from police brutality, he was thrown into prison in 2002 and Hon. Sikota, SC. and I took oranges there to feed him?

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Is he in order not to disclose his suffering? I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I make a ruling on that point of order, let me remind the House that we still have two or three more votes to consider on our Order Paper and time is running out. Therefore, let us minimise the points of order.

As regards that point of order, it is good you gave him oranges, but …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … that is not the issue for now.

Dr Kalumba may continue.

Dr Kalumba: Invisibility is not an expression of violence.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Your microphone is off.

Dr Kalumba switched on his microphone.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that invisibility is not an expression of violence at all.

Interruptions

Dr Kalumba: It is a humble expression of existence when under fire.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Camouflage.

Dr Kalumba: Yes, it is camouflage.

Mr Chairperson, on a serious note, Zambians have respected the culture of peace, but periodically, we have been visited with a virus of violence. Since I can tell that we are concerned from both sides of the House, it is about time we took a serious and dedicated stance to say no, Hon. Kambwili, together with me, to violence.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Violence does not help. It is the absence of reasoning. When you fail to reason with another human being and suspend your sanity, you resort to physical abuse of the other person because you cannot make sense.

Mr Kambwili: Sichilima!

Dr Kalumba: That I think is dangerous. It is important to stop for a moment and think whether throwing a punch or taking a metal bar to hit the head of another person the best expression of what you want to say.

Hon. Members: No!

Dr Kalumba: What are you saying then? You are just saying that you are mad and madness does not make very good politics. Therefore, I want to agree with my colleagues that we should make progress by making a pledge together as political parties to get back to the platform. A shared platform is a very good platform. Let us get back to the platform to commit ourselves to ethical sensibility of peaceful elections.

Sir, I want to go to the smaller issues and firstly the my most important department which kept me for seven months, the Prisons Department.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I thank the men and women working in this department. They work under very difficult conditions. They are enclosed together with the prisoners for many hours. In terms of conditions of service, they have the worstst in this ministry and I pray that the hon. Minister will push for improved conditions for the Prisons Department. A prison is like a hospital, all of us, at some point, need rehabilitation, especially when we talk about violence where you raise a bar and hit a person and you end up in a police cell. After which you can end up in Kamwala Remand Prison. It is a very dignified institution that should be funded properly in order to rehabilitate those of us who go a little bit there.

Interruptions

Dr Kalumba: A remand prison is one which you go to when you are accused of a crime, but not yet convicted. I was in such a facility. This department needs funding. Before, there was, hon. Minister, an offer from a United Nations agency to support us to build an new ultra modern prison in Mwembeshi, but somehow politics came in and that is how we lost out. There is still a need to put up modern prisons. Prisons should not be gutter places where people go to rot and die.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: When we do not look after the least of our men and women in society, we do harm to the greatest ideals that make a civilised society. I think those who are Christians, perhaps, can understand what I mean.

The Refugees Department is a very important department. It consists of men and women serving and helping those of our brothers and sisters who have run away from troubled lands to come into Zambia, as a haven of peace, to seek refuge. Often, we forget about them and we do not even think of them when coming up with policies. It is important to recognise these people because sometimes they have children here who will grow up and work here.

By the way, I am told that Ian Stan was a refugee in the United States of America, but he became a great man who helped to revolutionalise technology and science world over. These refugees are not useless people nor are they making us waste money on them. If we look after them properly, we send a message to the rest of the world that we are a sane civilised society that can provide refuge to those that need it. That has been the culture of Zambia. Therefore let us not give up on putting resources in this department that looks after our refugees. One day, we may become refugees as well, but let us hope and pray it never come to pass. Nevertheles, imagine that you are in another country, a neighbouring country, and you are treated the way some of our refugees have been treated in Zambia, you may regret that.

The National Archives, Sir, is a small department in the Ministry of Home Affairs, but a very important department. All our national and historical records are there. Somehow, I think, the building has not been completed. We have started a project to put up a very beautiful building right where the old building is. I do not know whether it has been completed, hon. Minister. I would like us to see smaller archive centers across the country which should store or collect information about us, including what we say and do. That is why that department is there. It is a registry of our acts as a people and I pray that we put some focused policy attention to this department. Computerise some of the documents because after years, they will start deteriorating. When I asked the question about freedom fighters, the response I got from the Government was that the records have been lost. They would not have been lost if they were in the archives. Therefore, I hope that we could pay some attention to this department.

The National Registration Department’s importance is recognised by particularly us politicians when it comes to elections, but think of it also in terms of births and deaths. We are not paying enough attention to the registration of births and deaths and marriages. Many children are born in this country without birth certificates, worse so in rural areas. We need to extend this registration of births and deaths to all parts of the country. This is the number one statistical responsibility of a country because if you are not counted, you are not part of the Budget and you are not part of the policy consideration. When you start the counting, you must start by registering the people who have been born in Zambia. We give these children a lot of headache when they are about sixteen years and they want to get a national registration card. It is important that we start preventing these problems by registering these children at birth. There is a need to register people when they die so that they remove the concerns about rigging as some people claim that people who are dead are put on the voters’ register. When they are registered, we will know those who are dead …

Hon. Government Member: In real!

Dr Kalumba: … especially in real, Sir.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Thank you. The National Registration Department, therefore, should not be a Cinderella Department. It should be part of the focal department that help us understand how many people we have, how many people are dying, when they die and why. We can record all this. The medical statistics can be part of these records. Somehow we are not keeping track of the record of births and deaths.

Finally, let me talk about the police. In rural areas, like in most places, the police are our courts. We go to them to adjudicate even small-time conflicts in the villages. If there is a small police post, we do not expect them to just lock us up in their cells, no. Therefore, the police also arbitrate and mediate between people in conflict. However, their conditions of service are so poor that the ministry should consider continuing the reform programme which this Government started and continuing the commitment to make the Police Service a people’s service.

The police officers has to have in his training a high suspicious conscious because most of us pretend to be gentlemen and gentle ladies when we are the ones creating trouble. The police officers work under considerably stressful conditions, but still have to make quick decisions. We make noise when we are trying to give our side of the cases to them, but still expect them to give us fair judgment and yet, in fact, in Solwezi, you (the Opposition) are the ones who are causing problems.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Since we started debating, according to my records, about six or seven hon. Members have spoken and those who have stood up now are over ten. You will appreciate that I know that these are important subjects like any other and that all of us if we had our way, we would wish to be given a chance to speak. I also would want all of you to speak, but unfortunately, at a certain point, we have to decide. For now, I will let Hon.  Mumbi Phiri speak from my left.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Vote on the Floor of the House.

Mr Chairperson, the money that has been allocated to the Ministry of Home Affairs is insufficient and if I had a way, I would increase it. A month ago, I was detained at one of the police stations in Lusaka. I appreciate the problems which the police officers are going through. I can describe a police officer as a sheep that is to be slaughtered. When you look at the way the police work under the MMD Government, …

Dr Machungwa interjected.

Mrs Phiri: Hon. Dr Machungwa, please.

… they get orders from the Executive. For example, when the hon. Member for Mandevu, Ms Kapata, and I were detained, and one of the young vibrant police officers saw that Hon. Kapata was about to die and opened the cells for us. The hon. Member for Mandevu’s blood pressure was 255 over 160 and mine was 178 ...

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: I believe those who are shouting …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think let us be organised. If you recall, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I said that this is a subject all of you would like to debate. However, if you continue to behave in the manner you are behaving now, it will indicate that the debate on this matter has been exhausted. Let us give each other a chance to debate and find the way forward.

The hon. Member for Munali may continue.

Mrs Phiri: Thank you, Sir.

Sir, today it could be me or Hon. Kapata detained in the cells, but it will be you tomorrow if we do not put things right. Nobody has the right to direct the police who are professionals.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Musonda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Apapene mwishile. Namucha!

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order as a technocrat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda: Is the hon. Member for Munali in order to mislead this House by saying that the blood pressure of a person, whichever machine they used, could have gone up to 250 or 260? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member for Chitambo is challenging, from a professional point of view, the statement made by the hon. Member for Munali of the blood pressure having gone up to 260. The hon. Member for Munali may wish to take that point of order into account. However, my advice is that try to avoid statements which may compel you to substantiate them.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. We have technocrats in this House who wear Kalingalinga tailored suits. These records are there at the University Teaching Hospital.

Laughter

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about female police officers. The hon. Member for Katombola also talked about our women in uniform. The …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is disorder in the House.

You may continue.

Mrs Phiri: … female police officers report for work as early as …

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! This is the last point of order I will allow to be raised on the hon. Member debating.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Munali, who is debating so passionately, in order to reduce the dignity of this House by alleging that, as professionals, we wear Kalingalinga tailored suits? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Munali is not in order. The most important point is to debate policy because once you bring in your personal experiences, it becomes personal.

The hon. Member for Munali may continue.

Mrs Phiri: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for the guidance. Before the point of order was raised, I was talking about the female police officers. As the hon. Member for Katombola said, female police officers report for work as early as 0500 hours, especially when there is a presidential assignment. They leave their children. Even if we are fighting for equal rights, it should be taken into consideration that these are mothers.

I once witnessed an incident where female police officers who were on presidential duty knocked off, but had no transport. As a result, they were on the road up to midnight. I had to give them a lift to their homes. Upon reaching their homes, they were in trouble. I urge the Government to procure more vehicles to assist female police officers get home early. It is alright for men to get home late, but not women.

Mr Chairperson, police camps are dilapidated…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think this is really getting out of control. Let us listen to each other. Otherwise, the Chair will be left with no option, but to move on to considering individual items under that head. Therefore, do not push me.

The hon. Member for Munali may continue.

Mrs Phiri: Thank you, Sir. I was talking about accommodation for police officers. It is sad to note the deplorable state of the police camps. They do not have water and some officers live in houses with broken toilets. The Government is now considering making police officers pay for water and electricity. However, if you look at how much they get, are they really going to manage? We always talk about police officers being the most corrupt public officers. How do you expect them not to be corrupt when they earn almost nothing? The police are only respected when they are dead because their bodies are taken to St Anne’s Funeral Parlour and then buried at Mutumbi Cemetery which is the most expensive cemetery. Why not improve their conditions of service so that they enjoy when they are alive?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Sir, I should also point out that police officers do not have a medical scheme. When they are sick, they have to pay their medical bills. That is why in the beginning, I said if I had a way, I was going to increase the budgetary allocation for police officers. Let us not forget that you can be in authority today, but things change. We have seen people who used to be in the Executive who are now on the streets. I am speaking as a representative of the people of Munali and so I have to make laws that will suit everyone. God has given me this opportunity and so I must speak out and work for the people.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I thank you and will try to be brief.

Sir, the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Zambia Police Service are important in the maintenance of internal security. It is said that the most important thing in life is to be alive in order to enjoy the goodies of life. When there is no security, life is endangered. Therein lies the importance of the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Zambia Police Service.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: The needs for this ministry in ensuring internal security in the country are great and yet the resources that we are able to give them are limited. This is understandable. If you look at the current Yellow Book, you will notice that the Zambia Police Service …

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order! I am not sure we are listening. We are not paying attention.

The hon. Member may continue.

Dr Machungwa: In the last Budget, the Zambia Police Service was allocated K446,341,234,366. In the 2010 Budget, the allocation has been increased slightly to K535,815,105,013 which is an increase of about K89 billion. The Ministry of Home Affairs had K188,473,886,609 in the last Budget which has been increased to K247,856,741,144, an increase of about 59 billion.

Mr Chairperson, I commend the Government for these increases.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa: I do realise, though, that these may not be enough. However, to appreciate the increases, you have to look at them against the total National Budget.

Sir, we have always talked about an air wing for the Police Service. Unfortunately, this has eluded us for sometime. If you go back in history, you will find that the Zambia Police Service had an air wing. We have to be a little more serious, hon. Minister, so that perhaps, we could budget for, at least, one chopper for the police in the 2010 Budget. It would be easy for them to chase criminals and get along.

Sir, the police must maintain internal security, work professionally and be aware of human rights and if they do that, we are very happy. However, the police also become victims of criminals and some of our people might even want to be very helpful to criminals. The police also have lives to protect. Even as we emphasise human rights, it is important that the police are able to protect and defend themselves, especially when they are attacked or deal with dangerous criminals.

Sir, sometimes it is sad that we condemn the police after they have been abused or even killed by criminals and we want to defend the criminals. I know that, in the past, there have been hon. Ministers who have issued instructions such as shoot to kill when you see criminals. Those have been roundly condemned. However, when criminals see the police, they shoot to kill. There has to be a trade-off. We must be aware that if the police are to protect the innocent, they must work with and get the support of the community.

With regard to violence, which a lot of my colleagues have talked about, let me emphasise that violence begets violence. You get into a spiral and this is what our friends are talking about. Sometimes, it starts from this Chamber when hon. Members begin to call each other names such as buffoon or twit.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: These are things that we have seen in the press. We merely laugh them off and nothing happens. However, the person at the receiving end could use even stronger language and that would create even more violence. When we debate, some people heckle and shout. That could also beget violence.

When a party cadre disagrees with the position taken by his or her party and decides to express his or her disagreement at a press conference, some Gestapo-like people from among the party cadres are sent to hammer him or her for having dissenting views and we clap and laugh. However, when it begins to get closer because hon. Members of Parliament are clobbered, we condemn the violence and yet we ignored it when it started. When the police move in and get in the middle of it, we tend to accuse them, depending on the outcome. It is reminiscent of what happens when election results are declared. For some people, elections are only fair when they win.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: There are only two sides of a coin. It is either heads or tails. There is no draw. If you start a fire deliberately and then the firemen come to try to quench it and in the process you get injured, you must take part of the responsibility. We must not discourage, humiliate or blame the person who has come to keep the peace. We must try to work with them, otherwise we are going down. Can you imagine, every time you are attacked, you believe that the police will not work for you, but will be on the side of somebody else, you may not call the police, but will take the law in your own hands. Then you are getting into a very dangerous situation.

It is important that we support these institutions because they are for us. You have to remember that a person’s behaviour is determined by the behaviour of others towards them. If I smiled at somebody and they shouted at me or if someone said that another person had a small brain, how would you expect us to react? How can you say that a leader has a small brain? Can you expect him to smile at you? This way, you create violence. We should try to start this thing right here. 
Let me also talk about …

Mr Kambwili: How do you call hon. Members of Parliament vimasilu?.

Dr Machungwa: I will ignore Hon. Kambwili.

Mr Kambwili: Do not ignore me.

Dr Machungwa: If you begin …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili, you are engaging your colleague.

Dr Machungwa: Sir, this is the exact thing I am talking about.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: When an hon. Member continuously tries to interrupt my speech when he has a chance to stand up and debate …

Mr Kambwili: Because it is useless

Dr Machungwa: … and calls my speech useless, then I will react in a manner that he may not like. This is the kind of behaviour we must do away with as hon. Members of Parliament. If we get into a fist fight and the police come on my side, Hon. Kambwili will say that I am being supported because I am a former Minister. That will not hold water. Let us try to work together.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just ignore him and address the Chair.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, let me comment on another department. There is a department in the Ministry of Home Affairs called …

Mr D. Mwila: Mumemo, mudala!

Dr Machungwa: … the Home Affairs Research, Planning and Information Department.  It is important that it is also supported in terms of getting enough funds to do its work.

Sir, going back to the police, again, I notice that the Crime Prevention and Detection Department has only been allocated K477 million and Police Intelligence Unit has been provided with K418 million. I would like to state that the successful fighting of crime depends on good crime detection and being able to put resources where they can try to prevent crime from being committed. Remember, for crime to take place, three conditions must be present. There must be a vulnerable victim somewhere who is likely to be attacked. There also has to be an opportunity and a person who wants to perpetrate that crime.

However, if we are able to detect the intentions, we can always thwart it. I am appealing to the Government to support this ministry in the best way it can. We can also try to be innovative. My appeal to my colleagues is not to get into that spiral of trying to promote violence because once it starts, we will not even respect those people who will try to put it out. Once the country goes into flames, then we will run into problems …

Mr Kakoma: Tizayamba!

Dr Machungwa:  … and if you are clobbered, hon. Member, because  you are saying tizayamba, and start complaining about the police not working, some of us may not listen to you. I would like to believe that all of us, as hon. Members, behave well when we are having tea here. We do not see anybody shouting even if we come from different parties, but rather talking very nicely to each other. I hope that when we go out in the playing field, we will continue in that manner.

Sir, that was my short contribution.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer now!

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity to support this Vote. I am appealing to my brother, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs by telling him that a good Minister of Home Affairs is the one who maintains law and order. There is nothing besides that. If you want to be praised by people, you are wasting your time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Ask Dr Machungwa, Dr Kalumba, Dr Mwansa and Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha. You do not need to be praised, but maintain law and order because the consequences of chaos will affect all of us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Therefore, I am grateful for what you have started doing. Be firm because a good hon. Minister must be firm, but knowing that there is the law which must be obeyed by everybody …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … irrespective of who they are.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: I have been a politician in this country for quite some time now.

Mr Mubika: Nima lawyer aya.

Mr Mulongoti: If there is one thing I have perfected, it is the art of debate. I have been to almost all the radio and television stations to argue with my brothers and sisters from an intellectual position.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Anybody who has been debating with me will tell you, in honesty, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … that they have had a very difficult time to convince me and …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: … because of that, I enjoy a lot of support from the community. I meet people who say to me, “I listen to you very carefully and I admire how you argue.” I get encouraged because of that. You will never detect the inciting of violence in my language for the one simple reason that I have sufficient intellectual words to use …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti:  … not to resort to violence.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Kambwili!

Mr Mulongoti: We can take stock of the violent politicians in this country. The violent politicians are known in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: We can open a catalogue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti:  We can list them one by one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Those who are violent move from political party to political party with their violence.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: At the end of the day, I do not need to be persuaded by anybody about the nature of certain people. We know each other even in this House. We know those who have the propensity to want to create violence even in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: We should be ashamed of ourselves because of that. We, in this House, must be in the forefront of preaching peace. If you do not have a logical argument, keep quiet.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Sometimes, as I seat in this House, I get notes from Hon. D. Mwila and Hon. Mukanga asking me why I am quiet. I tell them that I am a Cabinet Minister and, therefore, setting an example.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Therefore, those of us who have been here long have an obligation to teach those who come after us …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … how to behave well …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … and when we debate, we should avoid saying things that may annoy children.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Once you start annoying children, you will attract disrespect from them because they are quick at passing judgment. They will say, “Who is that man who uses a lot of insults?” and when you tell them that he is an hon. Member of Parliament, their response will be that, “for an hon. Member of Parliament, he does not speak well.” Remember that children listen to what we say in here very carefully. That is one thing we must bear in mind. It is not about the political party one comes from, but about who one is and what leadership they are trying to provide. I feel sorry for the police because they are victims and we, ourselves, are the perpetrators. When there is some violence and you are at the receiving end, you blame the police. No, let us provide leadership to our people. Our cadres are normally good people. It is the language we use at rallies that makes them behave in the manner they do.

Major Chizhyuka: Yes!

Mr Mulongoti: When you use violent language at rallies, you are inciting your cadres to become violent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Let me say this …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yourselves!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: I am not protecting anybody. I am just stating a fact that if your mouth is full of violent language, you are inciting innocent people to become violent. I think we must avoid this as leaders. Unfortunately, even some educated people forget their education and behave like they have never been to school. Very unfortunate, indeed!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: What we are looking for from those of you who have been to universities is for you to use that education for the benefit of this country. We know that we are all desperate about getting into, maybe, State House.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mulongoti: However, let me say that those of us who have been governing for some time, in as much as you would think we would want perpetuity, we also are bound to get tired. Until you can persuade us correctly, we will not hand over.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I was disappointed by Hon. Mwiimbu, a legal mind, who has been going to courts to fight these petitions on elections. I have been following this very carefully, but I have never heard of any petition on rigging. They will talk about rigging, but when they send their petitions, this aspect will not be found there.

Mr Mwiimbu: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I am saying this because most of the petitions we see in court do not state that the elections were rigged. They cite other things, but not say that the elections were rigged.

Mr Mwiimbu: You have to build from somewhere.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, all political parties have got party spokespersons and, I think, we also bear responsibility for what we say on behalf of our parties. There are some spokespersons …

Hon. Government Members: Kakoma!

Mr Mulongoti: … who wake up and say things that are so outrageous ...

Hon. Government Members: Kakoma!

Mr Mulongoti: … that you wonder whether when they are given instructions, they have no independent minds.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: This is because we expect them to consider the consequences of what they say.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: However, maybe, because they are so scared of their president, they can say anything they are told to say. There is a need to be responsible enough to understand that whatever one says, has got consequences. As I speak on behalf of my party and as I did on behalf of the Government, I always ask myself whether what I am going to say is going to affect others.

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, I know that …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mulongoti: …in this House, we are all hon. Members of Parliament. However, we are ranked differently by our electorates. I do not think that they think we are all equal. The electorates and the general public rank us according to the way we speak. When they hear us speak, they are able to tell who is a good hon. Member of Parliament, who is mediocre …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: … and they can even tell who, with a bit of time, will be a fiery speaker in the House.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members to exercise maximum tolerance for each other. If we cannot tolerate each other in this House, we will be worse than what Hon. Mwiimbu said we would be in the street. If you cannot be a gentleman or lady in here, what are you outside?

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: More so, if you exercise intolerance in here, you will be worse outside. You must be ashamed of yourselves. Hon. Mpombo, whose whereabouts I do not know, has said a lot of things about Hon. Shikapwasha and I. We have allowed him to exercise that freedom. However, as individuals, he and I talk. I have nothing against him. He has views to express. He has got an agenda, but I have told him to do it in a more decent way.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I have told him not to use a language that will make us fail to greet each other.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: That is what leadership is all about.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, you had indicated your intellectual capacity to get round certain issues.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, do not …

Mr Mulongoti: Thank you, Chair.

Mr Chairperson, I said that deliberately to remind those I see on the other side of the House, who when there is debate want to jump on an hon. Member in this House.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: That is basically what I was trying to drive at.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I do not have the capacity to jump back on the other gentleman. I would like to appeal to them to continue to show leadership by tolerating other hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, I feel for the police. I have been working with them for a long time and I am grateful that the current hon. Minister is doing a lot to solve some of the difficulties …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

 Mr Mulongoti: …that the police are facing. I also would like to appeal to those who have been in the cells or remand before …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: …to be champions in soliciting for resources not only from the Government, but from other institutions that can help.

Hon. Government Member: Mumbi!

Mr Mangani: It is not enough to show that you have been there, but to show that when you went there, you learnt something and because of that you are committed to ensuring that there is reform in that area.

Mr Chairperson, I support this Vote and I hope that as we work together with my brother, he can cry for more funds to help him make our police a happy lot who can protect us.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all those who contributed on this Vote for their support. 

Mr Chairperson, just to react to a few issues, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba, who, through the many contacts we have had, has tried hard to help the police in many ways to fight crime in his area. This is the spirit we all need to have as leaders in our constituencies and communities. The police are there for all of us as members of the community.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, the issue of cattle rustling raised by several hon. Members is, indeed, serious. The ministry and the police are doing all they can to address this problem. However, this is an issue involving the community as well. We expect the community to help us identify some of these people who live within the communities.

Mr Chairperson, on the allegation of police officers conniving with criminals, you are aware that where necessary, we have organised transfers or seriously penalised them when we have enough evidence on these officers. Nevertheless, I would like to thank the hon. Member for what he said.

Hon. Milupi also talked about the need for rural areas to be given enough policing support. We will do our best. However, most importantly, in terms of putting up police posts, we should try, as hon. Members, to mobilise the community so that we have enough police posts in these areas. I know that hon. Members understand the financial difficulties we have as a ministry.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of political violence was mentioned by Hon. Masebo and several other hon. Members. Political violence can cause a lot of problems in a nation. I would, therefore, like to appeal to all hon. Members, as leaders, to address this problem as a team. If we do not handle this problem well, it is going to cause a serious problem in the country. One of the causes of political violence is choosing to ignore the law. I was surprised by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu when he talked about notifying the police about a crime. As a lawyer, you know better than I do that the penalties of not notifying the police are the same as in the past when you were getting permission from the police. If you do not do this and the police move in, the consequences are the same. Therefore, as a lawyer, you need to revisit the law.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: You do not know what you are talking about.

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, more importantly, we need to condemn violence, which comes in many ways, forms, shapes and sizes. Of late, political violence has been motivated by our desire to win a particular seat.

Mr Chairperson, may I be allowed to refer to one particular case. The culture of moving cadres from one area to another makes it very difficult for the police to monitor the situation on our behalf. For instance, we had a situation in Solwezi where we had more than 6,000 or 7,000 strangers on nomination day. This puts a lot of pressure on the police. It is incumbent upon us, as leaders of political parties, to ensure that if there is a by-election or any election in any area, we leave that activity to those who live in that area.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: Only then can we avoid violence.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of how we speak and relate to each other is very important. I would, therefore, like to appeal to all hon. Members to relate to one another very well.

I would like to thank Hon. Dr Kalumba for understanding that my ministry has got ten departments and for trying really hard to debate on each one of them. I thank you for your support.

I would like to also thank Hon. Mulongoti for everything he said. We have to fight hard to make sure that we contain crime. For my sister-in-law, Hon. Mumbi Phiri, I am surprised that she has been picking up police officers at 24 hours.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: This shows …

Ms Cifire: As a married woman.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: I would like to thank her for the help she has been giving the police. All together, I would like to thank all those who have debated on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours. {mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 11/01 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – 165,761,515,978).

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 03 – Undertaking Division Tours – Nil. I notice that there is no provision for this activity which is a very important activity in the Zambia Police.

Secondly, may I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Purchase of Computers – Nil. There is no provision for purchase of computers and yet, this is a computer era and we are calling upon the Zambia Police to be computerised. Last year, there was a provision of K50,500,000 and this year, there is absolutely nothing.

Sir, I also would like to seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Laboratory Consumable – K60 million. I would like to find out why there is a drastic reduction from K97,359,384 to K60 million for Laboratory Consumables that are used for taking samples such as finger prints and all that.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Roan should repeat observations two and three. For the first observation, on Programme 8, that activity has moved to Programme 2 under General Administration – Activity 02 – Purchase of Office Materials – K30,000,000. This is the reason you have seen that there is no budget for 2010. Essentially, this activity will be undertaken. I hope you have taken note of that. Could you repeat the other two observations, please?

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I am seeking clarification on Programme 2, on Page 81, Activity 01 – Purchase of Computers. Why is there is no provision for purchase of computers when we want to completely computerise the Police Service?

Mr Chairperson, on the same page, I would like to seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Laboratory Consumables – K60,000,000. You have reduced the allocation from K97,359,384 last year to only K60 million this year. May I know why?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Laboratory Consumables – K60,000,000. We have reduced the allocation because we have some stock in hand. What is the other question?

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, there is no dialogue like that.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, we purchased computers in 2009. Therefore, we do not anticipate buying the same number of computers next year.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K800,000,000. There has been an increase of K150 million from K650 million to K800 million. I want to know which police camps will be rehabilitated.

Secondly, Programme 10, Activity 03 – Cell Rehabilitation – K650,000,000. There has been a reduction from K750 million to K650 million on cell rehabilitation. I want to find out why there is a reduction when we have been talking about rehabilitating cells.

Mr Chairperson, on page …

The Chairperson: Order! Sometimes you overload the people who are supposed to respond to your questions.

Can the hon. Minister answer only those two questions?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, we are going to rehabilitate some police houses in Sikanze and Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe Police Camps.

Mr Chairperson, much as we would want to rehabilitate more cells, you will appreciate that the major concern here is the budget ceiling.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Procurement of Office Material – K64,771,024. Last year, the allocation was K141,700,601. I would like to know why there has been this reduction.

The second one is on Programme 5, Activity 07 – Training of Police Recruits – K1 billion. Last year, the allocation was K2 billion. I want to know why there is this reduction because it looks like we may not have enough recruits.

Sir, the last one is on Programme 2, Activity 01 – SARPCCO Games – K 6,551,820. Last year, we had K120 million, but it has been reduced to K6,551,820. If you look at this reduction, it is almost nothing.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, there is a reduction on training of police recruits because we are not going to recruit in 2010. The allocation that we have set aside for 2010 is to enable us complete the training of the police recruits who are currently in training at the various police colleges.

Sir, the reduction on the SARPCCO Games is because there will be no SARPCCO Games in 2010. We do not host SARPCCO Games on an annual basis. This allocation is only there to enable us pay for the subscriptions.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, the Government had promised this House that they would be recruiting 1,500 police officers every year to have the 26,000 police officers required by this nation. Why are they now telling us that they have not budgeted for that exercise which they promised this nation?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani):  Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga is right that we need to have a continuous recruitment exercise. At the moment, we have 1,600 officers undergoing training. Unfortunately, because of the limited resource envelope, we are likely to recruit 500 instead of 1,600.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, there are two factors here. First and foremost, may I ask the hon. Minister to apologise, on behalf of his hon. Deputy Minister, for misleading the House that …

The Chairperson: Order! Just address your concern.

Mr Kambwili: Could the hon. Deputy Minister apologise for misleading us.

The Deputy Chairperson: No!

Mr Kambwili: Secondly, I am not convinced by the explanation on computers. Is the hon. Minister telling us that the police have now got adequate computers and therefore, they do not need to buy more computers? K50 million should have bought 100 computers and that is not enough for the entire Police Service to have computers.

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, I think you must understand that we are dealing with the Headquarters. The Police, as a unit, will come under its on Head. However, we bought computers last year under the Headquarters. And so, we cannot buy more computers this year. However, if you check under Police, there is a different Head.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/03 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Lilayi Police Training School – K11,418,184,334)

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K7,866,782,848. It is common knowledge that in Zambia, people ask for salary increments every year and the Government does award those salary increments. I would like to find out why the provisions for salaries at Division II have been reduced from K11,067,090,950 to K7,866,782,848 and yet we have recruited more officers in this category?

Hon. Government Member: They were promoted!

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, if you check Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K1,332,279,619, there was an increase from K1,332,279,619 to K2,057,498,404, meaning that most of the officers have been moved from Division II to Division I. That is why there has been that change. The difference is merely because of some movement. At the same time, some officers have died or retired. However, most of the officers cannot reach Divisions I and II. That is why there have been some changes.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, the explanation given is not convincing. I would like to find out whether there will be any increment of salaries in Division I since you have moved some officers in Division I and the increment is just about K900 million. Will there be no increment in salaries?

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, it is important for my dear brother to understand. Definitely, the increment is there. There is a provision of 15 per cent increase due to the current salary increments that we had. However, the reduction is due to the fact that the current police recruits have been budgeted for under divisions where they will be posted.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/04 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – State House – K14,389,114,992).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – V.I.P Protection – K400,000,000. There has been a reduction from K891,000,000 to K400,000,000. Why are you reducing on V.I.P protection this year?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Chairperson, this activity’s expenditure that is quite important, is partly met by Cabinet Office.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6, Activity 01 – Electricity Bills – K125,040,672 and Activity 02 – Water Bills – K125,040,671. It has been observed that the police have been having problems paying for electricity and water bills in police camps. I have also observed that they have reduced the amount of money for water and electricity bills from K125,040,672 to K50,000,000. May I know the reason?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, part of the cost of meeting the electricity and water bills will be handled by the Police Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/06 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Tazara Police – K9,773,576,907)

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 04 – Wages – K389,838,196. There has been a big increment in the money allocated for wages at Tanzania-Zambia Railways (TAZARA) from K57,088,949 to K389,838,196. May I know the reason for this increment. Have you employed more officers or what has happened at TAZARA that there can be an increment of almost K400 million?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, we intend to recruit more Classified Daily Employees (CDEs) at TAZARA.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/07 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Para-military – K30,637,116,898)

The Chairperson: Order! You are consulting loudly.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Platoon Inspections – K36,000,000. There has been a reduction from K80,000,000 last year to K36,000,000 this year. How many inspections will be done and what pantoons have been targeted and why the reduction?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, it is actually “platoon” and not “pontoons”.

Laughter

Mr D. Phiri: Would you like to ask another question?

Mr Mukanga: Thank you for your correction. Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Platoon Inspections – K36,000,000, I want to find out how many platoon inspections will be conducted and why the amount has been reduced.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Platoon Inspections – K36,000,000, platoon inspections will not always be at the same level. We have conducted a lot of platoon inspections this year, but we will not maintain the same level next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 9, Activity 02 – Rotation of Officers – K55,500,000, I would like to find out what activity can cost this amount when officers are rotated.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 9, Activity 02 – Rotation of Officers – K55,500,000, this amount will cater for logistics as the officers move.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/12 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – K13,922,149,474).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 6, Activity 03 – Telephone – K20,000,000, last year, there was no provision and I am wondering how the province operated.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 6, Activity 03 – Telephone – K20,000,000, last year, telephone expenses were administered by the Force Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 3 – Court Sessions Attendance, there is no allocation. I would like to find out if there will be no people taken to court in 2010.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairman, on Programme 8, Activity 3 – Court Sessions Attendance, the activity will definitely take place, but it has been merged with Activity 02 on the same Programme 8.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/ 13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/15 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Luapula Province – K10,226,745,539).

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 2 – Maintenance of Vehicles – K35,000,000, why has this amount been reduced? I would like to find out whether new vehicles have been bought.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 2 – Maintenance of Vehicles – K35,000,000, the amount has reduced because major repairs on vehicles are done at our police workshop in Lusaka.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1, Activity 03 – Salaries Division III, there is no allocation. I would like to know which officers fall under this category because I have noticed that in almost all the provinces, the salaries for officers at Division III have not been provided for.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1, Activity 03 – Salaries Division III there is no allocation because we have upgraded all the officers to Division II.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/56 ─ (Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Drug Enforcement Commission ─ Eastern Province ─ K96,018,885).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek clarification on Programme 6, Activities 01 ─ Electricity ─ K2,216,000 and 03 ─ Water ─ K1,662,000. Surely, can this money sustain the office for the whole year?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, it is true, these figures appear to be small, but the DEC Headquarters will take care of this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, from the answer that has been given, I thought this was an activity based budget where we should not be leaving most of the activities we know are supposed to be taking place to the headquarters. I would like to find out why the hon. Minister has given that answer.

Mr Mangani: Mr Chairperson, indeed, this is an operational budget, but as you can see, this is just a payment for the office in the Eastern Province. Although the figures look small, this is just for one or two offices and we do not sleep there, but just use the electricity there.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/56 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/57 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12/01 − (Commission for Investigations − Office of the President − K4,200,373,062).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity. The Commission for Investigations was established …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order. There is a lot of noise. When I was reading, I ignored that noise. I understood you agreed with the figures, but now, it is a policy statement you must listen to.

 May you continue, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … in 1973 and became functional in 1974. It operates under the ambit of the Commission for Investigations Act, Chapter 39 of the Laws of Zambia. The Act provides for the commission’s powers, privileges and immunities in pursuance of its mandate.

Mr Chairperson, the function of the commission is to protect the rights of people both citizens of Zambia and, indeed, non-citizens against the potential actual violations that may result from either defective administrative systems or abuse of office or authority and inefficiency or in short, maladministration in Government ministries and departments, local authorities and parastatal institutions.

The commission offers a free and confidential service to complainants as mandated under the Act. In effect, the commission can be described as a Public Service watch dog and serves as a conduit for both enforcement of standards in the Public Service and the promotion of the upholding of ethics, the rule of law and principles of fair play in the Public Service.

The specific service of the commission includes:

(i) investigating and redressing grievances of maladministration in public institutions and ensuring promotion of fairness and social justice. It also includes monitoring administrative malpractices to ensure compliance to laid down procedures;

(ii) providing the publicity and information function which consist of the promotion of  public awareness on the existence of services provided by the commission; and

(iii) establishing and maintaining an effective and efficient management of the information system.

Sir, the performance of the commission is measured by the number of cases that are received and resolved. In this regard, from January, 2009 to 21st October, 2009, the commission received 368 complaints. In the same period, the commission also concluded 367 complaints which included complaints from previous years.

Mr Chairperson, the major challenges of the Commission for Investigations include:

(i) the commission is centralised and has no offices in the provinces and districts. The commission would work better if it were centralised in order to improve its efficiency and effectiveness;

(ii) the Commission for Investigations Act has no financial provisions to facilitate planning and implementation of the institution’s core functions and activities. There is, therefore, a need to review and expand its institutional framework; and

(iii) the commission’s current establishment is limited in relation to the volume of work that the institution has to handle. Currently, the establishment provides for only two investigations officers to service the entire country.

Mr Chairperson, in the year 2010, the commission intends to focus on three priority activities namely;

(i) in order to achieve greater independence and autonomy, the commission intends to develop appropriate policy and legal framework to guide its operations;

(ii) as part of the decentralisation of the commission, it intends to open three regional offices in Ndola, Lusaka and Livingstone; and

(iii) as part of the restructuring process of the commission, it intends to recruit more staff and allocate some of them to regional offices. In fact, there is a need for a comprehensive review of the institutional framework.

In conclusion, the estimates of K4,200,373,062.00 before this House are meant to support the priority activities above. I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Members to support these estimates.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice on this important vote. In supporting this vote, I would like to state that the Commission for Investigations might not have done very well in as far as the handling of cases is concerned. I am told that the commission received about 368 complaints and concluded 367 which included complaints. However, in administration, many people have had a lot of problems which they wanted to present to the commission.

One of the issues might have been the problem of locating their offices. It is very difficult for people to locate the offices of the commission. Some people travel long distances from villages bringing their complaints to the commission, but fail to locate the offices. That has been the major problem. You will note that even if they have complaints, they will not submit them and if they locate the place, by the time they submit them, the complaints will have been surpassed by circumstances.

The other issue is that this commission, like other commissions that we have in the country, is supposed to be made mobile. They are supposed to be carrying out provincial tours like any other commission so that they are able to handle issues as they are on the ground rather than just sitting in the office and waiting for people to travel to this commission.

The other matter that I would like to talk about is one that His Honour the Vice-President has already discussed. This commission should be decentralised. It should not only go to one region. It should go to all the districts in the country so that it becomes easy for people who have complaints to visit it rather than having it in Lusaka and regional offices. If it remains as it is, it will be very difficult for our civil servants to submit their complaints. Also, one of the serious issues is that it will be difficult for people to travel long distances. Therefore, we need to restructure this commission and employ as many people as possible at all levels so that people can easily reach them without any difficulty.

With these few words, I would like to thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members for their overwhelming support.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – Headquarters – K4,200,373,062).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on the activities that are involved in budgeting and financial management because I have seen that there is an increment from K82 million …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! On what page is that?

Mr Kambwili: Sir, this is on page 118, Programme 2, Activity 04 – Budgeting and Financial Management – K204,000,000. What is involved in this activity for it to increase from K82 million to K204 million? Secondly, may I also have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Investigations – K641,000,000. How many cases have they projected to handle? The provision has increased from K352 million to K641 million.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 04 – Budgeting and Financial Management – K204,000,000, this provision will be used to cover the cost for bank charges, control account, main accounts, procurement of office stationery, official entertainment allowances and cleaning materials. The variance is due to the increase in materials.

As regards the second question, on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Investigations – K641,000,000, the variance is due to the increase in the number of provincial tours during the year. In fact, this was mentioned by His Honour the Vice-President’s during his policy debate.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K454,000,000. It was K1.1 billion last year, but it is K454 million this year. Why do we have a reduction because we need to revamp this activity?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K454,000,000, the difference which is a negative variance is due to the payment of outstanding arrears which were cleared this year, 2009. For example, the arrears due to the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL) and Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) were cleared.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – K297,280,814,889).

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Chairperson, I am seeking the support of this august House for the 2010 proposed budget estimates for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

In formulating the proposed budget estimates for 2010, my ministry has drawn from the strength of identifying activities in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) and Vision 2030 to make this country a medium income economy. The activities proposed will have a direct impact on poverty reduction and wealth creation, especially in the rural areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, in the energy sector, the role of the sector is to provide energy options that will meet the social and economic development demands of this country. In the year 2009, the focus of the Government has been to stabilise the supply of electricity and petroleum products despite the challenges that were faced earlier in the year in the electricity sub-sector and recently in the petroleum sub-sector. In addition, the Government continued to promote new and renewable energy sources, including energy management which is considered as a fifth fuel.

In 2009, the performance of the petroleum sub-sector was favourable as the supply of energy services was reliable for most parts of the year and the Government was able to stabilise the price of fuel.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: This stability was due to the long-term supply contract that was entered into with the Independent Petroleum Group (IPG) of Kuwait. The June and August tax reductions, in turn, assisted in the stabilisation of fuel prices.

Sir, considerable progress towards the storage of strategic fuel reserves was also made with the completion of the 40,000 metric tonnes Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) diesel storage tank in Ndola. The availability of the new storage space will enhance the capability of the country to store up to thirty days of diesel strategic stock which can be used as buffer stocks in case of an emergency like the one we recently had. This facility will be commissioned within the fourth quarter of 2009.

The outlook of 2010 is, however, brighter for the petroleum sub-sector …

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Mr Konga: … as the Government aims to further enhance the security of supply of petroleum products and maintain relative stability of petroleum pump prices. In order to achieve uniform pump prices nationwide, the Government will facilitate the rehabilitation of provincial storage depots. In line with this commitment, the Government has plans to sustain the long-term oil procurement programme in 2010. Furthermore, the petroleum tax regime will be revisited with a view to sustaining relative stability of petroleum pump prices.

Mr Chairperson, in the electricity sub-sector, electricity outages were less frequent as a result of the progress in the Power Rehabilitation Programme (PRP) where the Government managed to:

(i) complete the rehabilitation of the Kafue Gorge Power Station and upgrade it from 900 megawatts to 990 megawatts; and

(ii) complete the rehabilitation and upgrading of three machines at the Kariba North Bank Power Station. The three machines have been upgraded from 150 megawatts to 180 megawatts each.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, in order to mitigate the power crisis, the Government commenced the construction of the Kariba North Bank extension early this year. This project will add an extra 360 megawatts to the power system once completed.

The major challenges in the power sector lie in the colossal sums required to build new power stations and tariff levels which are apparently not cost effective. This has impacted on the pace of building of new power stations.

Furthermore, most of the materials and equipment on the power projects are imported and attract duties and other taxes. The taxes associated with these imports have often created bottlenecks in the implementation of the projects by the developers.

Sir, for the year, 2010, the main development programmes in the electricity sub-sector are as follows:

(i) completing the ongoing rehabilitation works at the Kariba North Bank Power Station and increasing the generation capacity from the initial 600 megawatts to 720 megawatts at the end. The target month for completion of this programme is March, 2010;

(ii) facilitating the construction of new power stations. For example, the Kafue Gorge Lower Hydro Power Station at 750 megawatts, Kalungwishi Hydro Power Station at 210 megawatts and Kabompo Hydro Power Station at 34 megawatts;

(iii) rehabilitating and upgrading the Lusiwasi Hydro Power Station from the current 12 mega watts to 62 megawatts;

(iv) rehabilitating and upgrading the Lunzua Power Station from the current 0.75 megawatts to 11 megawatts;

(v) facilitating the construction of access roads to the new power stations planned for construction, that is, the Kafue Gorge Lower Hydro Power Station, Kalungwishi Hydro Power Station, Kabompo Hydro Power Station and Shiwang’andu Hydro Power Station; and

(vi) facilitating feasibility studies for potential hydro power projects in the country.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the Rural Electrification Programme (REP), the Government has set a target of increasing the electrification rate in rural areas from the current 3 per cent to 51 per cent by the year 2030.

Mr Chairperson, in 2009, an estimated K100 billion was allocated to the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) for project implementation. A total number of twenty- five projects were initially identified for implementation for 2009. However, due to limited resources, the projects have been reduced to sixteen. Currently, procurement of contractors is still going on and implementation is scheduled to begin before the end of the fourth quarter of 2009.

The main challenge in this area is often inadequate resources. For example, out of an annual requirement of K200 billion only K100 billion was available in 2009. The lengthy procurement procedures also inhibit progress at the desired rate.

In 2010, the Government will continue to implement programmes carried over from 2009 and any other additional programmes that will be drawn from the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP), especially now that the Budget has been increased through the Treasury.

Sir, in 2010, the Government will continue with the promotion of renewable and alternative energy sources such as wind, solar and bio-gas among others.

In the biogas area, which includes firewood, charcoal and bio-fuels, the Government continued to implement programmes that ensure the sustainable utilisation of firewood and charcoal and the introduction of bio fuels in the energy mix.

The focus for 2010 would be the promotion of bio-fuels through:

(i) the development of a regulatory framework which will be brought to this House;

(ii)  establishing breeding ratios; and

(iii) Implementation of the adequate blending of bio fuels with petroleum products at the determined ratio.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister. I think that hon. Members on my right should give the hon. Minister a chance to debate without being interfered. You can consult, but do so quietly.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, energy efficiency is the most cost-effective use of energy resources. It allows extra energy to be freed and made available for other uses without further investments. Energy efficiency practices seek to reduce energy consumption without sacrificing productivity or increasing costs.

In 2010, the Government will scale-up activities that promote energy conservation and substitution in order to use our energy resources more effectively and efficiently.

Mr Chairperson, may I now turn to the water sector. In this sector, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development continued to implement measures to facilitate the development and management of Zambia’s water resources in 2009, within the framework of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) and Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) are the following key priority areas:

(i) water resources infrastructure development;

(ii) water resources and information systems management; and
 
(iii) institutional capacity building.

Mr Chairperson, in the water resources infrastructure development, my ministry’s focus was mainly aimed at implementing infrastructure development as a priority programme for both surface and ground water. The following specific activities were undertaken under the water resources infrastructure development during 2009.

(i) dam construction and maintenance;
(ii) ground water resources development; and
(iii) ground water resources development for trachoma control in infested areas.
Mr Chairperson, the objective for water resources assessment is to enable the Government collect reliable data to facilitate effective planning. In order to realise this objective, the Government is rehabilitating several hydrometric stations throughout the country with emphasis on the construction of ground water monitoring boreholes to facilitate data collection on ground water resources around the country for effective planning.

Mr Chairperson, may I now turn to programmes to be undertaken in the water sector in 2010.

Mr Muntanga: How many dams?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development will continue to implement programmes on water resources infrastructure development, water resources information management and capacity building during the period 2010 to 2012, in line with the FNDP and MDGs on water. The ministry has, therefore, identified the following key priority projects to be undertaken during 2010. Under resources infrastructure development, the following will be undertaken:

(i) construction of four small dams;

(ii) maintenance of twenty-four dams and weirs;

(iii) ground water development for mitigation against droughts, floods, cholera and trachoma by the construction of 100 boreholes;

(iv) ongoing ground water development project in the Eastern Province, which will require counterpart funding; and

(v) ground water development for strategic institutions such as schools rural health centres, chiefs’ palaces and any other urgent requirements.

Mr Chairperson, under water resources information management programmes, the following will be undertaken:

(i) rehabilitation of sixty hydrometric stations;

(ii) establishment of ten new hydrometric stations; and
 
(iii) construction of three hydrological data capturing platforms.

Mr Chairperson, under capacity building programmes, the following will be done:

(i) human resources and institutional development;

(ii) construction and rehabilitation of offices at the district level;

(iii) procurement of vehicles and motorbikes for provincial and district officers.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to appeal to this august House to support my ministry’s estimates for 2010, which total in excess of K200 billion, for us to undertake the requirements I have mentioned in the policy statement. I hope that the House will support my submissions.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to debate.

Sir, as an hon. Member of Parliament representing a rural constituency, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

______

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 4th November, 2009. 
____________

QUESTION FOR WRITTEN ANSWER

MONEY SPENT DURING THE ILLNESS AND SUBSEQUENT DEATH OF PRESIDENT MWANAWASA

W17. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice how much money the Government spent during the illness and subsequent death of President Mwanawasa  in Paris, France, in relation to the following:

(i) security and other Government officials’ stay there;

(ii) airfares and allowances for Ministers and family members who travelled to Paris;

(iii) upkeep of the First Lady and her entourage in Paris;

(iv) transporting the remains of the late President to all provincial headquarters; and

(v) funeral ceremony in Lusaka including burial.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, the amount of money the Government spent during the illness and subsequent death of President Mwanawasa in Paris, France in relation to the specific questions is as follows:

Details       Amount 
       (K)

Security and other Government Officials  2,196,098,134.20
stay in Paris, France

Airfares and allowances for Ministers and   481,106,342.12
Family members who travelled to Paris,
France

Upkeep of the First Lady and her entourage   117,835,227.40
in Paris, France

Transporting the remains of the late President  9,193,111,480.00 
to all provincial headquarters
 
Funeral ceremony in Lusaka including burial. 7,529,450,057.89

Total       19,517,601,241.61

I thank you, Sir.