Debates- Friday, 27th February, 2009

Printer Friendly and PDF

DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 27th February, 2009

The House met at 0900 hour

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF TANZANIA

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of four hon. Members and a senior staff, who are members of the Parliamentary Service Commission of the Parliament of Tanzania and are here on a study visit. The names of the distinguished visitors are:

(i) Hon. William Shelukindo, MP, Commissioner (Leader of the Delegation);

(ii) Hon. Philemon Ndesa Mburo, MP, Commissioner;

(iii) Hon. Estalina Kilasi, MP, Commissioner;

(iv) Hon. Abdu Karim Shah, MP, Commissioner; and

(v) Mr Rapheal Nombo (Secretary to the Parliamentary Service Commission).

We welcome the visitors and are happy to have them in our midst.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

2009 INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY

Madam Deputy Speaker: As you might be aware 8th March, 2009 is the International Women’s Day and this year’s theme is “The Equal Sharing of Responsibility between Women and Men including Care-Giving in the context of HIV/AIDS in Zambia”.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: As part of the activities to commemorate this day, National Assembly has identified three main activities where hon. Members of Parliament and Parliamentary staff will be involved.

(i) on Monday, 2nd March, 2009, at 1430 hours, there will be a sensitisation talk on the theme in the Amphitheatre at Parliament Buildings. All hon. Member are invited to attend;

(ii) on Thursday, 5th March, 2009, some hon. Members of Parliament and Parliamentary staff will be involved in a cleaning exercise at Chimbokaila Prison; and

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

(iii) some hon. Members of Staff and Parliamentary staff will take part in the International Women’s Day Match Past which will be on Sunday, 8th March, 2009. Hon. Members of Parliament who will take part in the outlined activities will be informed in due course.

 I thank you.

____

REPRIMAND BEFORE THE BAR OF THE HOUSE OF MRS JOSEPHINE C. MUMBI PHIRI, MP

Madam Deputy Speaker: I order you, Hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Josephine C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, to stand behind the bar of the House. 

Mrs Josephine C. Mumbi Phiri, MP was escorted to the Bar by the Sergeant-At-Arms.

Madam Deputy Speaker: I also instruct the Sergeant-at-Arms to take the Speaker’s Mace and go and stand behind the Hon Member.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The House will listen. The Chair is upstanding.

The House will recall that on Tuesday, 25th November, 2008, when the House was considering the First Report of the Committee on Government Assurances and the Hon Member for Kabushi Parliamentary Constituency, Mr L. P. Msichili, MP, was debating, the Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office, Hon. Gaston Sichilima, MP, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I rose to make a very serious point of order.  Last week, I rose on a similar point of order and the ruling was made by you, Mr Speaker as follows:

‘…Therefore, Hon Members, do not debate matters that are for this House outside the House or vice versa.  Do not debate things out there and transport them to this House for whatever reason you may be doing so.  It is still improper, unprocedural and dangerous’.

Sir, is it in order for the Hon Member of Parliament for Munali, Hon Mumbi, to follow the lies of the President of her party and go publicly on MUVI Television…’

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

‘…go publicly on MUVI Television and say that hon. Members of Parliament get a lot of money without even explaining where she is getting that money from?

Furthermore, she purported ignorance of the voting procedure that happened in this House. The Chair, Mr Speaker, suspended the proceedings of this House in order to guide us for almost forty-five minutes, according to my estimation on how to vote on the motion that was to be introduced on the Floor by His Honour the Vice-President.  However, the hon. Member went on television and said she did not know the procedure thereby, trivialising and misleading the people out there as I referred to in my earlier point of order.

You guided us to take the debates and the business of the House seriously if people are to respect us. Following what the Hon. Member of Parliament, Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, did, I need your serious ruling.”

In his immediate reaction, the Hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House stated as follows:

“Hon Members, the point of order raised by the Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President is, indeed, very pertinent. Let me repeat that ‘I’ refers to the Speaker of the National Assembly. What I ruled last time is valid up to now and the ruling is unquestionable. However, on a technicality, I now have a problem in that I was not privy to what was said on MUVI television as pointed out by the hon. Deputy Minister. In view of that problem and technicality, I refer the matter to the Committee on Privileges for further study.”

Hon. Members, in line with Parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Hon. J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, requesting her to state her side of the story, and also to the director of MUVI television, requesting copies of the video recording of the interview.

In her reply, Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, Stated as follows:

“Dear Madam

RE: POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON SICHILIMA, DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT AND MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MBALA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AGAINST MYSELF

I am in receipt of your letter dated 11th December, 2008 from your office concerning the Point of Order which was raised on the floor of the House by Hon Sichilima, MP, Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice President and Member of Parliament for Mbala Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam, it is true that I went on MUVI TV and said that Members of Parliament got a lot of money.

As for my ignorance on Information Technology, which I hereby faithfully plead, I wish to bring to your attention the fact that, I even applied for the training that Parliament advertised for hon. Members of Parliament with no knowledge in Information Technology to undertake. I am still waiting for this course to be organized. Further, I wish to submit that, the voting on the Bill that was returned to Parliament by the President was unprecedented, since my election to Parliament. Consequently, I was confused in as far as the implications of the three choices were concerned.

Yours faithfully

Mrs Mumbi J. C. Phiri”

MUVI Television provided the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly with the video recording of the interview. The Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services had occasion to view the video.

In addition, the House may wish to know that the hon. Member was availed an opportunity to appear before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services and the Committee’s findings were as follows:

1. It was not in dispute that Mrs J. C. Mumbi, Phiri MP, had featured on a MUVI Television Programme known as “The Hot Issue” on 24th November, 2008, discussing the Presidential, Ministerial and Parliamentary and Constitutional Office Holder’s emoluments.

2. Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, was in the House when the Hon. Mr Speaker suspended the business of the House to allow hon. Members of Parliament to be apprised on the voting process using the electronic equipment in the Chamber.

3. Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, misrepresented the facts on the appraisal by the Hon. Mr Speaker for all hon. Members on the voting process using the electronic equipment and also on salaries payable to hon. Members of Parliament.

4. Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, disassociated herself from the resolution of the House, thereby casting aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker and the entire House.

5. By pleading ignorance on the voting system when the Hon. Mr Speaker had taken time to apprise the House on the same, Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, disassociated herself from the resolution of the House, thereby casting aspersions on the Chair and the entire House.

6. By misrepresenting the facts on a matter that was discussed on the floor of the House, Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, breached the Powers and Privileges of the House.

In line with the above observations and findings by the Committee, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the various authorities and rules of procedure pertaining to publication of proceedings of the House. M N Kaul and S L Shakdher, in their book entitled ‘Practice and Procedure of Parliament’, Fifth Edition, on page 1084, state that:

“The question of privileges vis-à-vis the press arises mainly in two ways: the publication of the proceedings of Parliament and comments casting reflections on either House, its committees, hon. Members or officers.”

Further, on page 1085, the authors, in the same book state that:

“Normally, no restrictions are imposed on reporting the proceedings of the House. However, when debates or proceedings of the House or its Committees are reported mala fide or there is willful misrepresentation … it is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House and the offender is liable to punishment.”

In the same book, on page 278, the authors state that:

“it is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to make speeches or to print or publish any libels, reflecting on the character or proceedings of the House or its Committees, or any member of the House for or relating to his character or conduct as a Member of Parliament.

Approaching an outsider against any decision of the House is tantamount to a reflection on the decision of the House and consequently contempt of the House.”

Further, section 3, of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12, of the Laws of Zambia, provides that:

“There shall be freedom of speech and debate in the Assembly. Such freedom of speech and debate shall not be liable to be questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly.”

Furthermore, section 25 (b) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privilege) Act, Cap 12, of the Laws of Zambia, provides that:

“Any person who publishes any false or scandalous libel on the National Assembly or any report which willfully misrepresents in any way any proceedings of the Assembly or any Committee shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months, or to both.”

Hon. Members may wish to note that from the facts of the case and the various authorities that I have quoted, the Committee established the following breaches committed by Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) by misrepresenting the proceedings of the House on the material day, the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali breached the provisions of Section 25(b) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, which I have already referred to. In addition, and while the House may not restrict publication of its proceedings, it is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House for any person to misrepresent the proceedings of the House; and

(ii) by pleading ignorance on the voting process using electronic voting equipment, Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, breached the provisions of Section 19 (e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Capt 12 of the Laws of Zambia which states as follows:

‘19. Any person shall be guilty of an offence who –

(e) commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.’

Hon. Members, by purporting to be ignorant of the voting procedure, when the Hon. Mr Speaker had taken time to acquaint the hon. Members with the procedure, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, MP, was casting aspersions on the Chair. The hon. Member, therefore, gave false information to the public on the proceedings of the House.  This amounts to an offence punishable under the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, cap 12, of the Laws of Zambia.

Hon Members may wish to note that the freedom of speech and debate in the House is a privilege enjoyed by all hon. Members.  None of them can be questioned on his/her debate in the House or its Committee.  However, debate on matters before the House made outside the House is not a privilege.  It is, in fact, a breach of privilege and contempt of the House.

Furthermore, it is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to approach an outsider and opine against any of its decisions with an intention to contradict the decision of the House and, consequently, tantamount to contempt of the House.  It is, therefore, the duty of each hon. Member to refrain from any course of action prejudicial to the privilege of freedom of speech.

As I have already stated, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, you are guilty of breach of parliamentary procedure, privileges and contempt of the House as specified above.

The Committee, therefore, resolved that, being a first offender, you, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, MP, should be severely reprimanded behind the bar and be surcharged the amount of K250,000 that the National Assembly spent to obtain the video from MUVI TV.

In accordance with the resolution of the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services, I now reprimand you, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, MP, and inform you that your conduct as an hon. Member of Parliament of this august House fell short of what was expected of you.  An hon. Member of this august House ought to know its powers and privileges. These are contained in the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, which the Hon. Mr Speaker made available to all hon. Members of this Assembly, including yourself.  In addition, all hon. Members of this Honourable House are provided with copies of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005 edition, the Members Handbook and all other documents relevant to the work of an hon. Member of Parliament.  Wilful breach of the National Assembly Powers, Privileges, Procedure and Practice undermine the authority, dignity and decorum of the House.  I hope that it was not your wilful desire to commit this breach.

In your own admission before the Committee, you stated that you had been present when the Hon. Mr Speaker gave a briefing on the voting procedure and you did not raise any issue as to your inability to understand the technology and its implications.  You, however decided to go to the press where you wilfully put the credibility of the House and, in particular, that of the Chair into disrepute, by contradicting the decision of the House on the three emolument Bills of which you were a part.

You may also wish to know, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, that the National Assembly Library is built for hon. Members of Parliament to utilise so that they are well informed. This includes the internet café which is located in the same Library.  It is, therefore, dishonorable for any hon. Member of Parliament to plead ignorance of any matter pertaining to the operations of the House.  The National Assembly takes it that by you, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, being elected to this House, the electorate in your constituency expects you to adequately and effectively represent them.  It is, therefore inconceivable that, without any form of regret, you publicly pleaded ignorance of the business of the House in which you fully participated.  It is my sincere hope that you, Mrs Mumbi Phiri, will heed this timely reprimand and that you will exercise your sense of judgment to refrain from any form of dishourable conduct.

Let me take this opportunity to appeal to all, hon. Members to take careful note of the fact that, in the performance of the functions of this House, there are rules and regulations referred to as parliamentary practice and procedure, which guide hon. Members and the House, in general, to do what is permissible and to avoid what is not.

If hon. Members of this House wish to perform the functions of this House through the press, then they better give chance to those who know what this House stands for.  Hon. Members should understand that when a matter is resolved in the House, they are bound by that decision collectively and cannot go and question it outside.  This is what democracy is all about.  Hon. Members who are not ready to be bound by this principle have no place in this House.

We cannot allow anarchy and disorderliness to brew in this House for which we shall have no one to blame but ourselves to the detriment of the nation.

Hon. Members, there are also powers and privileges which accrue to you as individual hon. Members of Parliament and also to the House collectively.  The rules of procedure are provided so that this House performs its functions in an orderly, effective and efficient manner, without wasting effort and time.  Likewise, the powers and privileges of this House protect it and its Members from undue influence from within and outside this House.  All these have historical reasons which hon. Members of Parliament can read for themselves from the books found in the National Assembly Library.  Hon. Members have heard the Chair quote from authorities on Parliament, such as Eskine May and Shakdher.  These are some of the authorities on the evolution and operations of Parliament. 

In the light of what I have stated, I therefore, urge you, hon. Members of Parliament, to utilise all the rich resources given to you on the operations of Parliament.  Similarly, the staff of Parliament is available to help you perform your Parliamentary duties effectively.  Please, make full use of this qualified human resource.

Further, let me take this opportunity to apprise the House on the punishment options available should an hon.Member be found in breach of parliamentary privileges and contempt of the House.  These are:

(i) Admonition;

(ii) Reprimand;

(iii) Suspension from the House for a definite period to be determined by the House, and loss of emoluments during the period in accordance with section 28, of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act; and

(iv) Fine (in a case where the law specifically provides for such a penalty).

The source of these punishment options is the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia and Parliamentary Practice and Conventions.

Let me repeat, this House will not entertain any kind of unbefitting behaviour from any person that has the effect of bringing the authority, dignity, decorum and integrity of the House and that of the Chair into disrepute.  Failure to adhere to this timely warning will result in the House imposing appropriate sanctions on the erring hon. Member of this august House or the public.

I now order you, Mrs J C Mumbi Phiri, MP, to apologise to the House and, thereafter, resume your seat.

Thank you.

___________{mospagebreak}

PERSONAL STATEMENT

APOLOGY BY THE HON. MEMBER FOR MUNALI (MS J C M PHIRI)

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Madam Speaker, I, Josephine Chilufya Mumbi Phiri, do sincerely apologise to this august House for the remarks I made on MUVI Television on 24th November, 2008.

 

 

Madam Speaker, I have reflected on the remarks I made which compromised the dignity of this House and the office of Hon. Mr Speaker and I deeply. I have carefully listened to your reprimand and the guidance you have given me. With the indulgence of the House, I wish to assure this august House that I shall endeavour to conduct myself in an appropriate manner.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

____

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! In the absence of the His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other equally important national duties, the hon. Minister of Defence will indicate Business of the House for next week.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, let me give the House some idea of the business to consider next week.

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 3rd March, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply and continue with consideration of the individual heads of expenditure in the budget. The following heads will be considered:

Head 20  –  Loans and Investments – Ministry of Local Government and  Housing;
Head 29  –  Ministry of Local Government and Housing;
Head 31  –  Ministry of Justice;

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Let us listen to the business.

Mr Mpombo: Head 27  –  Public Service Management Division; and 
   Head 17  –  Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

On Wednesday, 4th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply to continue with the considerations of individual heads of expenditure in the budget and the following heads will be considered:

Head 34  –  Human Rights Commission;
Head 44  –  Ministry of Labour and Social Security; and 
Head 45  –  Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Madam Speaker, on Thursday, 5th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2009 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following heads will be considered:

Head 46  –  Ministry of Health;
Head 51  –  Ministry of Communications and transport;
Head 64  –  Ministry of Works and Supply; and 
Head 76  –  Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

On Friday, 6th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s question time. Then, the House will consider questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2009 Estimates of revenue and Expenditure to consider the following heads:

Head 77  –  Ministry of Defence;
Head 78  –  Office of the President – Zambia Security Intelligence Service; and 
Head 80  –  Ministry of Education.

The House will also deal with any other issues that may be outstanding.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question time.

Laughter

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Madam Deputy Speaker: In the absence of the His Honour the Vice-President, we will begin with questions for oral answer.

GENDER BALANCING IN INSTITUTIONS AS AT 30th DECEMBER, 2008.

161. Mr P. P. Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Gender and Women in the Development how many women were employed in the following institutions compared to their male counterparts as of 30th December, 2008:

(i) Zambia Prison Services; 
(ii) Development of Immigration;
(iii) Zambia Revenue Authority, Customs and Excise Division; and 
(iv) Zambia Police Force.

The Deputy Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Changwe): Madam Speaker, I wish to submit the following information as at December, 2008 we had,

Position   Women  Men  Total   Percentage of            women
Prison Service   437   1,420  1,857  23.53
Immigration   140  400  540  25.93
Customs and Excise
Division (Zambia
Revenue Authority  408  843  1,251  32.61
Zambia Police Force 1,500  12,725  14,227  10.54
Total    2,485  15,390  17,875  13.90

Mr P. P. Chanda: Madam Speaker, in recognising that this year’s women’s day will be celebrated based on the theme of Shared Responsibility with Men. With such numbers, how do you hope to achieve that responsibility?

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, in response to that question, I wish to state that though the numbers seem to be relatively low, with the proactiveness of this Government there has been a gradual increase in the number of women entering these departments. As such, I see that with the presence of these women, the shared responsibilities that we are talking about will actually be started. We can only start with a certain number and later on grow it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, what sort of authority will the hon. Minister require in order to enable her to lobby for more women to be appointed to positions of decision-making?

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, as we are aware, there are several protocols that Zambia is a signatory to. However, I want to state that Government has put in place policies to ensure that the number of women is raised in our public and private institutions. Also, we really do not require much authority as what we are doing, especially under the Gender in Development Division, is to sensitise more women so that they can also rise to the challenge and take up positions in decision-making areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, can I find out from the hon. Minister how many women are in the top ten in each institution.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, though it was not part of the main question for us to give that exact number, I think for now we can say that we have taken up that concern and we will able to get back to the House.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, the Southern African Development Community (SADC) protocol on women representation in decision making positions has risen from 30 to 50 per cent. I would like to find out from the Hon. Minister what plans the ministry has in order for us to attain this.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, when we talk about decision making positions, I want to …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Ms Changwe: … categorically state that this does not only refer to positions in the political arena. However, suffice to say that we are actually trying to capacity build and we are also in the process of coming up with an inventory to show the number of women that qualify to hold certain positions. In our responsibility as a co-ordinating agent, we will do so with other ministries and sectors to ensure that a good number of women rise to decision making positions so as to attain that SADC protocol status.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, may the hon. Minister tell the House what positive steps her department is taking to ensure that women are encouraged to join institutions which have low levels of female workers.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, in answering that question, I want to state that the issue of undertaking any career is actually a matter of choice. However, the Government is encouraging as many women as possible to take up jobs in various institutions so that they can also contribute to the development of this country.

So, as I have said, we are in the process of sensitising both women and men, because our role is not just to look at women alone. We are also encouraging a good number of Zambian citizens, especially those that are just completing school, to take up jobs in various sectors.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister what measures have been taken to sensitise women in rural areas.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Member for Chadiza that we have gender focal point persons at district level and we have also drawn up programmes for them to sensitise the rural women. It is also the responsibility of hon. Members of Parliament to also sensitise women in their constituencies.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell us what has happened to the profiles that were compiled by Zambia Association for Research and Development (ZARD) and the Women’s Lobby Group that have data on qualified women that can hold serious professional responsibilities in both the public and private sectors.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Member for Lukulu West that, yes, indeed there are those profiles and the division has circulated them and made recommendations to that effect. I want to state that it is as a result of the same profiles that some women have risen to higher positions. Though I do not have the figures readily available, some organisations have already started looking at those women and some of them have been promoted. We shall continue to do that with other line ministries and the private sector.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister what is being done to reduce the dependence syndrome among our women folk.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, there are a number of activities that are being done by other institutions other than our division. I want the hon. Member to know that we are not a ministry and therefore we are not implementing agent. We are just a co-ordinating agent under the division which co-ordinates with other stake holders. There are so many avenues through which the women are being empowered through other ministries as well as through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission. We are also attaching them to micro-financial institutions.

I thank you, Madam.

PROHIBITED IMMIGRANTS ALLOWED BACK INTO THE COUNTRY FROM 2002 TO 2006

162. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) How many prohibited immigrants deported from Zambia were allowed back into the country from 2002 to 2006; and

(b) Who these individuals were and why they were allowed back into the country.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Phiri): Madam Speaker, nine prohibited immigrants deported from Zambia were allowed back into the country from 2002 to 2006.

As regards to part (b) of the questions, below is the list of names of these individuals and the reasons they were allowed back into the country:

Name Nationality Reason

Vandanapu Prakash Indian Exempted to attend court (matter still pending)

Kasongo Remmy Congolese Exempted to attend court

Ross Michaelson British Exempted to attend court

Kisitu Mousa Ugandan Exempted to attend court (He has since won the case)

Shawi Fawaz Lebanese Exempted to attend court

Hudson Ross British Exempted by order of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs

Charles Brown Nigerian Exempted by order of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs

Mukandami Lusapi Not known Exempted by order of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs

Wilhelm Roman  Australian Exempted by order of the hon. Buchmann  Minister of Home Affairs

I thank you, Madam

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the list he has given is incomplete because they are many people who were deported and are back in the country? Is he also aware that some of these people, like the case of Mr Buchmann and others who had committed crimes, came back and even committed more crimes and have since left the country?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Machungwa for that follow-up question. The records in the ministry inform us that this is the number of people that have been deported and have come back for the reasons stated. In the case of Mr Buchmann, whom Hon. Machungwa has specifically referred to, he was exempted, but has no permanent residence in this country. He is allowed to come in and go out so as to attend to his business transactions, but he does not have permission to permanently stay in the country.

Now, there is a distinction between people deported and people asked to go out of the country voluntarily. Under form 15 of the Immigration and Deportation Act, immigrants can be asked to leave the country on their own, but may come back upon proof of certain facts.

However, those that are deported cannot come back without an exemption order signed by the hon. Minister and that is for reasons already specified.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that due to poor record management at immigration offices a lot of deportees have come back, but have not been rearrested?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, it is true that some deportees return, but they are very few, the majority do not. Those that return do so because of poor border facilities to control the movement of people in and out of the country. In order to control the situation, we have computerised all border controls. We have started with Lusaka and Livingstone. Therefore, no deportee will ever enter this country through Livingstone or Lusaka because the system can capture images as well as names. A long term solution to this is to computerise all the border controls and that programme is on course.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister shed some light on under what circumstances an hon. Minister can permit a deportee to come back and stay in this country, particularly when you are looking at the issue of corruption in this country being at its highest?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, under the Immigration and Deportation Act, the hon. Minister has discretion to exempt deportees. Some of the reasons have to do with wrong representations made initially by the department to him or her upon which he or she acted.

Secondly, where new facts emerge which if were known at the time of signing of the deportation order the hon. Minister would not have signed the order. When these people come back, they are given temporal permits of one to three months duration while we prosecute the cases for which they were allowed to come. Most of them are here because they have taken the hon. Minister to court to challenge his or her power to deport. If that is the case, then that is one of the reasons they are allowed to come and attend court sessions.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, for avoidance of doubt, may the hon. Minister of Home Affairs make it crystal clear that it is the policy of his Government to allow deported persons who are prosecuting cases against the state to be allowed to return to the country in order to facilitate this process?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, it is in both ways. If a deportee wants to challenge the deportation order or wants to take the hon. Minister to court for the courts to examine the legality of the action, they are allowed to come. However, if they have cases themselves against the Government, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to come and prosecute their cases against the Government.

I thank you, Madam

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to make it quite clear with regards to the issue of deportees being allowed to come back and prosecute cases. Is it to prosecute or defend any case or is it specifically cases relating to their deportation?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, most of the exemption orders are signed with regard to the need for these deportees to come back and prosecute cases in relation to the deportation order. However, if there are other cases for which the exemption is sought, those will be determined on a case by case basis.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the discretion that he exercises is premised on written guidelines, which I think most of the hon. Members that are asking these questions would like to look at.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, discretion is exercised on what the hon. Minister considers right or wrong. Those are personal powers given to the hon. Minister to exercise. In the exercise of those powers, the hon. Minister obviously consults his Deputy Minister and the civil servants and he does not normally use it without proper guidance from the civil servants.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Beene (Itezhi Tezhi): Madam Speaker, in one of the responses from the hon. Minister, he indicated to this House that he is going to improve the border points by putting computers. I wonder how he is going to manage in places like Sikongo and Shang’ombo where only individuals are manning those border posts.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, certainly I share that concern and we have difficulties in low man power levels. We are tackling these in two ways. The first one is to improve on the man power levels in the immigration department and we hope that this year we can recruit about 100 officers to bring the total number to about 600 and 700. In addition to that, we have begun the process of computerisation beginning with Lusaka Airport and Livingstone Airport. As I said earlier, the long term plan is to computerise as many border controls as possible.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs how Shawi Fawaz has been classified as Lebanese when he was born and has always lived in Zambia, in possession of the Green National Registration Card (NRC) and has never lived in Lebanon?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, we must make the point that being born in Zambia does not confer citizenship clear.

Mr Sing’ombe: But he has got a Green NRC!

Dr Mwansa: It is just one of the reasons you may cite when you apply to become a Zambian.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs whether we have mechanisms as a Government that when a deportee is deported correctly, they do not sneak back in the country again. If by crook, they sneak back, can you fish out this person from the community because most of them have infused themselves in our communities?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, when someone is deported, the information is gazetted and is well-known as it becomes public information. However, we have certain difficulties as some of them do come back. Those that come back, once identified, are dealt with in accordance with the law. This means they maybe arrested for illegal entry, prosecuted and then sent back to their countries of origin. I must say that within our own communities, let us be vigilant so that we alert our security forces when we see those coming back in order for them to take action.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the power exercised by public office holders is custodial power and as such, discretionary power is similarly custodial power. Would I find out whether when the hon. Minister is exercising the discretion on the recalling of the deportees the circumstances and reasons for arriving at that discretion is recorded somewhere so that society can follow and understand the basis on which the discretion was made to avoid speculation and suspicion that this discretion could also be abused.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, discretionary and custodial powers cannot necessarily be on the same individual. When someone is deported, a deportation order is assigned by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. When he is allowed to come back, the hon. Minister signs what is called an Exemption Order. This order specifies the reasons why a particular individual is allowed to come back.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, why does the Ministry of Home Affairs take long to repatriate prohibited immigrants resulting in keeping some of them up to three years?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I certainly share that concern. We have difficulties in repatriating all prohibited immigrants. Some of the reasons have to do with resources required to take these individuals out, but all efforts are being made to ensure that this is done so as to decongest some of our detention centres where these people may be detained.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if NRCs were withdrawn from people who had them upon their deportation. 
 
Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of that information, but if it is true, we shall follow it up.

Thank you, Madam.

MONEY REALISED FROM THE SALE OF WINDING ENGINES

163. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how much money Luanshya Copper Mines Plc realised from the sale of winding engines at 18 and 28 shafts; and 
(b) how the money realised at (a) above was utilised.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, Luanshya Copper Mines plc realised a total of US$2,170,000 from the sale of the winding engines at 18 and 28 shafts broken down as follows:

 Shaft      US$

 28 Shaft Rock     485,000
 28 Shaft Man     760,000
 18 Shaft Rock     470,000
 18 Shaft Man     455,000
 
 Total               2,170,000

As regards to part (b) of the question, Madam Speaker, the money realised from the sale of the winders was used for the purchase of mine equipment including but not limited to:

(a) dump trucks;
(b) compressor;
(c) pumps and cables; and
(d) load, haul and dump.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, Luanshya Copper Mines plc bought the entire assets at Luanshya Mine for US$7 million and yet the Government allowed them to sale only two winding engines at US$2 million. Why did the Government allow these people to sale the assets when they knew that there was an investor who was interested in opening 18 and 28 shafts? How is this investor you have given the chance going to mine without winding engines?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member, who is debating the issues of Luanshya so passionately, for his follow up question. However, I would like to inform him that we are aware as a ministry about the life of 18 and 28 shafts and of what the interest of the would- have-been investor was; hence that is why he was not given the license.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, this is the second time that Luanshya Copper Mines Plc has been hit by economic turmoil and has caused the people of Luanshya to suffer. What long term measures do you have as Government for these people to survive and stand on their own?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Itezhi-tezhi for his question. However, may I take this opportunity to clear a few things. Mining is finite. We have seen it happen in Kalulushi, a once vibrant mining area, but those shafts are now closed. With what is now happening to the people of Luanshya, this responsible Government is doing everything it can to ensure that operations resume as soon as possible with an investor who will see the Milyashi Deposit developed.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I want to find out why the investor sold these winding engines at the time when they were closing the mine.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! This debate going on across the Floor can lead some hon. Members into very serious trouble. Can we stop shouting across to each other?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, may I clarify the issue here that the selling of the winding engines at 18 and 28 shafts was done much earlier before the closure of the Baluba Mine. However, I would like to put it to this House that the selling of the said winding engines was after the commissioning of the two shafts.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that despite these investors having bought the mines at US$7 million and benefiting by even stripping off certain assets like the winders, that they sold at almost half the price at which they bought, they are now asking for US$95 million to sale this same mine to the would be investors?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Chongo for volunteering to give the House that information which has not come officially to the Government. However, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Member to the response given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development that the said moneys were reinvested in capital equipment, which the hon. Member is fully aware, such as dump trucks, compressors, pumps and cables and load, haul and dump equipment used in mining operations.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Now, that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is in the House, we will have the Vice-President’s Question Time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

_______________{mospagebreak}

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, currently, the giant bank in Swaziland has been sued by the American or Federal Government so that they can unveil most of the account holders who have gone to deposit their moneys there. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice…

Hon. Members: Switzerland.

Mr Mwenya: Sorry, in Switzerland.

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: The UBS Bank, which is the giant bank in Switzerland. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether this Government has taken advantage of the new situation to find out how many Zambians deposited money in those accounts, especially former Heads of State, in order to recover part of the plundered resources.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I have been following the trends in Europe and what has happened to UBS. If the hon. Member has any information on any Zambians who may have lost money or information which would be of interest to the Government, he should give it to us. As far as we are concerned, we have no knowledge about what he is talking about.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, as a result of climate change and lack of clearing of canals, vast sections of my constituency and other parts of the Western Province have experienced early floods which have resulted in hunger. People are now desperate and I would like to know when relief food will be supplied.
 
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  Madam Speaker, the hon. Member asked the same question even last time. I reminded him about the benefits of floods in the Western Province …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … which include the Kuomboka Ceremony.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I have taken note of what you have said. In areas where there are floods, it is the responsibility of the hon. members of Parliament to inform the Government. However, such problems should not only be brought to my office in Lusaka. We have district disaster management committees where you can report as an hon. Member of Parliament.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Madam Speaker, there was a shooting at the University of Zambia (UNZA) some time last year. The police undertook some investigations and the Inspector-General of Police told me that they had been concluded and taken to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). I would like to know when this report will be released because the students who were shot at and their parents are anxiously waiting for it.

I thank you, Madam.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, as far as I know, we do not discuss matters of police investigations in this august House. Therefore, I will not give any information on that.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Speaker, as we need to be prudent with the way we use funds this year, I would like to know when the Government will stop paying housing allowance to civil servants that occupy Government houses.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The payment of housing allowance is regulated by the Government and it is those regulations that determine who gets housing allowance. However, if the hon. Member has any information of anomalies in the payment of housing allowance, he can bring it to our attention.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, I would like to know whether Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM – IH) is taking over Luanshya Mine.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: When I was Attorney-General, I used to peruse some of these agreements relating to the sale of the mines. ZCCM-IH is a vehicle through which the Government participates in various mining companies and we hold a certain percentage of shares in many of the mines. On the issue of Luanshya, as I pointed out during one of the Vice-President’s question time, I indicated that we set up a committee to look into this issue so that we could find an equity partner who could invest in this mine. ZCCM-IH still has an interest in most of the mines in Zambia and that is its participation.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, the Vice-President has just informed the House and the nation that the Government through ZCCM-IH has an interest in most of the mining companies in Zambia and, particularly, on the Copperbelt. He is aware that most of these mining companies on the Copperbelt where they are shareholders have been failing to pay certain taxes, inclusive of windfall tax. Is he confirming to the nation that they are also falling to pay windfall tax because they are part of the owners of these companies?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, some mining companies have paid the windfall tax. Others have paid under protest while others have declared a dispute with the Government. That is the position. It has nothing to do with the interest that ZCCM-IH holds in these mines. The issue of windfall tax is regulated by law. We passed a law in this House detailing how companies should pay that windfall tax.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, the Government’s intention to open Mulungushi University was a way to ensure that as many Zambians as possible access higher education. Now that the university has become one for the apa mwamba [those who are well to do] as fees go as high as K20 million. I would like to find out whether the Government will consider reducing the fees so that as many Zambians as possible can access higher education.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, where Zambians cannot afford fees relating to higher education, there are other avenues through which we assist, for example, through bursaries. However, if it is not there, we are making representations and it is something which can be looked into.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, the wrangle between teachers on the Copperbelt and miners over former Zambia Co ZCCM houses has been going on since 2003. To date, teachers have occupied some classrooms as houses. I would like to find our why it has taken the Government so long to resolve such an issue?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I am aware of that case. Some former ZCCM employees bought houses on the Copperbelt which, in some cases, were occupied by teachers. Those teachers refused to vacate the houses claiming that they were sitting tenants and were entitled to occupy them. Therefore, the matter went to court and I understand that a determination was made and that matter is being settled through the court system.

However, I know that, as a Government, we got interested and the Secretary to the Cabinet was looking into that issue. We made some alternative offers such as land to teachers. In that way, the Government had done its part. At the same time, we must respect the judgments of the court. Zambians should be law abiding. If the courts have determined a case, that is it. As a Government, there is away in which we can assist and we have already done that through making alternative suggestions to teachers.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Chishya (Mpambashe): Madam Speaker, for some time now, Zambia has been carrying out limited research and development using nuclear sources for peaceful purposes. How has the Government been disposing of these sources as nuclear waste after passing the half life?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, the issue of mining uranium and disposal of nuclear waste is one which is being dealt with through the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and Minister of Tourism, Environmental and Natural Resources. We have come up with some regulations on how to mine uranium and how to dispose of such waste. Therefore, we are addressing that particular issue. It appears that Zambia is rich in uranium and other similar minerals. We are concerned about environmental issues and how to deal with such hazardous materials.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi-South): Madam Speaker, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to shed light on how hon. Members of Parliament are supposed to behave. Of late, I have seen some hon. Members of Parliament matching to State House in gumboots.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Mr Chisanga: Yet, we have capable hon. Ministers in this House who can solve these problems.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Well, we have guidelines on the issue of how hon. Members of Parliament are supposed to behave. The Chair guided even this morning through a point of order. That will not come from His Honour the Vice-President.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, National Constitution Conference (NCC) has been going on for almost a year now. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to comment on how it is progressing.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I think that question is important for those who are not in the NCC …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … so that I give them some information on how we are progressing. The NCC is making a lot of progress.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: So far, I believe that all the committees have finished going through the Mung’omba Draft Constitution. There are lively debates and some of you who are not in the NCC, but have been watching on television …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … on how we are handling the various technical issues. I can assure the nation that a lot of progress has been made. In fact, we will be going into the plenary session when we rise from here to look at the entire draft and consider the committee reports which have been made by various committees. A lot of issues that are debatable or controversial are being resolved through such committees and recommendations are being made. Many hon. Members feel that the issue of the fifty plus one vote should be rejected.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Others feel that it should …

Laughter

 The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, then there are issues to do with the appointment of Ministers from outside Parliament or within. The lively debates have been going on and many of the members, especially hon. Ministers, feel that Ministers should be appointed from within this national assembly.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, issues to do with chiefs, age and whether hon. Members of Parliament should be resident in their constituencies are debated and these are important to hon. Members.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam, hon. Members who stay in Lusaka and have constituencies in rural areas, like myself, are against such provisions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, there are also issues of qualifications of presidential candidates …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and hon. Members of Parliament. Therefore, those who are not in the NCC, please, come and contribute. Decisions will be made and they will be left out.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out what plans the Government has put in place to protect citizens from the policemen who shoot in communities and later on take their lives as was the case yesterday, 26th February, 2009, in Kanyama.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, in Zambia, like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs pointed our yesterday; we have the Police Public Complaints Authority. We also educate our police officers regarding issues of human rights.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, in the House! Can we listen to the answers we are soliciting from His Honour the Vice-President. You may, continue, Your Honour.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam, we train police officers in human rights, but sometimes they find themselves in difficult situations. However, if people are injured and can prove their cases, as the state, we compensate them. We do not encourage our police officers to be highhanded or to be involved in criminal activities.

Therefore, any police officer who will go to that extent of violating or abusing the rights of our citizens will be punished. As Government, we do not condone that and there are legal channels which are established. We encourage respect for human rights, but at the same time, of course, police officers must maintain law and order so that we can still continue to enjoy the prevailing peace and tranquility.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, Chiefs Muchila and Mbeza of Namwala District are some of the highest producers of maize in Southern Province. Unfortunately last year, we were affected by an act of God, unprecedented floods, leading to 70 per cent crop failure. I have tried to go through all the offices including the World Food Programme (WFP) Director’s with regard to relief food, but up to today, hardly any has been given. Only two weeks ago, a child who had starved for two weeks died after being given food in Chief Muchila’s area. Is there some deliberate step to starve the people of Namwala to death …

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: …given that all the avenues associated with sourcing relief food, that I have been to the top of, have failed? Is there something being done in order to serve the people who are ordinarily the major producers of maize to the rest of the country? 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Member is being unfair by alleging that there is some deliberate attempt by the Government to try and starve our citizens.

Madam Speaker, if there is a province in which we are working as Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), it is Southern Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We are working in twenty-six districts because of what happened to our citizens in the last rain season. Therefore, we remain committed to ensuring that we look after our people. Matters of this nature should not be politicised and if there is any area where we are failing as DMMU, let us know.

Madam Speaker, last week, I announced that a sum of K17 billion had been released to my office so that we could move on with issues of distribution of relief food. There are times when we have been stuck with resources, but that particular issue that you have raised is noted and let us interact. You can come to my office over a cup of tea so that we discuss and see how we can address it.

I thank you, Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Quality!

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Speaker, following the floods and the droughts we have experienced in the country over the last years, may I know from our hard working Vice-President what steps the Government has taken to integrate disaster reduction measures in the recovery process in order for us to avoid similar experiences in future.

Mr Lubinda: Siaviziba chab! [He just does not know]

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, we have all the mechanisms and infrastructure in place. We have institutions in place to respond to disasters. A disaster is a disaster and sometimes, the magnitude and extent may not be predictable. We have schemes through which we monitor them and that is the only information I can give.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, is Government aware that the newly introduced policy by the Ministry of Education (MoE) has not been received well by the teachers, particularly, in my constituency? Now that people have complained, is Government considering reversing that decision which was announced recently? I am told that it is creating congestion in schools.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, that is a very important question. This policy relating to the cut off point is intended to ensure that all the pupils who pass Grade 9 proceed with their education. Of course, there is the issue of limited number of school places which we are examining. We will be discussing this matter with the hon. Minister of Education to see what impact this particular decision is having on our education system. At the moment, all I can say is that it is intended to ensure that many of our pupils who pass Grade 9 proceed with their education. It is something which we are looking into, assessing and considering with the hon. Minister of Education.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, in the first and second republic, it was mandatory for civil servants to sit for General Orders, Financial Regulations, English Law and Humanism Part 1 and Part 2.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: As a result of these preparations, it was very rare to hear of misappropriation of public funds. May I learn from His Honour the Vice-President why the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) abolished this noble cause?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I agree with you on the need to train our civil servants on a continuous basis. What I do not know is whether they should also be trained in Humanism, …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … Part 1 or Part 2.  I have even forgotten what was involved in that.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam, we however do have training. In fact, we even go beyond that. The qualifications to enter into the public service now are quite high. Most of the civil servants possess high qualifications such as degrees and masters. This is something which we are still reviewing. It is important for Government that we have high quality man-power. Indeed, it is important that we train people in various aspects of public service.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, may I know from His Honour the Vice-President why the skull Broken of Hill Man has not been returned considering the fact that we have been independent for over forty-four years now. Is it as a result of our inertia or unwillingness to surrender the Broken Hill Man?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, that question was on the Order Paper last week and it was covered. It is something which the Government is looking into. I think that is what we said in response to that particular question.

I thank you, Madam.

_________

 

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2006

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Excess Expenditure Appropriation 2006 Bill, to approve the excess expenditure of moneys aggregating nine billion, three hundred and fifty nine million, one hundred and fifty one thousand, nine hundred and forty seven kwacha, required for the services of the Republic during the financial year ended on 31st December, 2006.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Public Accounts Committee. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 20th March, 2009.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL, 2007

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Supplementary Appropriation 2007 Bill, to confirm the supplementary expenditure of moneys aggregating five hundred and forty eight billion, two hundred and fifteen million, six hundred and twenty one thousand, seven hundred and one kwacha required for the services of the Republic during the financial year ended on 31st December, 2007.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Public Accounts Committee. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 20th March, 2009.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 13 ─ (Ministry of Energy and Water Development ─ K139,266,071,013).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, before the House adjourned last night, I indicated that the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) will ensure that the nine rural electrification projects that were intended for implementation in 2008, at an estimated cost of K18 billion, are completed by the end of May, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, in the areas of renewable energy, my Government will continue to prioritise the use of such forms of energy to diversify the energy mix.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours to 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I was indicating that electrification of public places, education and health institutions by using solar energy, for example, will form part of the rural electrification grid mix that the Government will embark on this year.

During 2009, the Government will continue to consolidate programmes to promote the development of the bio fuel sector. Bio fuels offer immense opportunities not only for improving energy supply, but also for the creation of wealth, especially among the poor, through employment opportunities.

Further, given the potential negative impacts on bio fuels on food security and protection of the environment, my ministry will take up steps to ensure that the sub-sector is developed in a sustainable manner.

Mr Chairperson, within the steps indicated above, the Government intends to achieve among others, the following in the energy sector, in the year 2009:

(i) increasing national capacity to ensure that the electricity deficit is eliminated;

(ii) increasing  efficiency of the sector;

(iii) improving the viability of the sector by initiating the process to reach cost-reflective tariffs by the year 2011; and

(iv) increasing the share of renewable energy in the national energy mix.

Mr Chairperson, as regards to the water sector, the pivotal role this sector plays in the economic growth of our country and overall national development cannot be over emphasised. In order to ensure that the sector makes a meaningful contribution to the economic development process, my ministry will continue to implement specific projects in water resources management and development activities in 2009. These activities will assist in the assessment, development and allocation of water resources in the priority sectors of economic development such as agriculture, tourism, environment, mining and manufacturing.

Mr Chairperson, in this respect, my ministry will concentrate on the following key activities in 2009:

(i) Institutional;

(ii) Infrastructure;

(iii) Management; and

(iv) Regulation.

As regards to institutional activities, with the funds made available to my ministry, we intend to rehabilitate three rigs and other accessories this year. Hon. Members may wish to know that on average, one rig can drill 100 boreholes per year. Therefore, this means that my ministry will be able to drill a total of 300 boreholes this year. Once we have rehabilitated the rigs, our projections are that on average, 250 people will have access to a borehole. This will bring the number of projected beneficiaries this year to 75,000 in the whole country. Furthermore, my ministry is targeting strategic institutions such as rural health centres, schools and other learning institutions as well as palaces for our traditional leaders.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: As regards to infrastructure, my ministry will continue with the dam construction, rehabilitation, expansion, assessment as well as monitoring of boreholes and the development of water resource through borehole construction in drought prone areas as an intervention in 2009.

Hon. Members may recall that in 2008, they favoured my ministry by approving the estimates that I tabled before this House. With the resources made available to the Ministry of Energy and Water Development in 2008, my ministry was able to complete construction works on some dams and commenced construction works on other dams in other parts of the country.

Mr Chairperson, however, my ministry faced some challenges in dam construction in 2008. The cost of building an earth dam increased remarkably during the year on account of dramatic increases in the cost of cement which is one of the major inputs in the construction process. The high cost of fuel for most of 2008 also had an adverse effect on the construction of water resource infrastructure such as dams and boreholes. It was only well into the third quarter of the year that the fuel crisis on the local market subsided.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development accomplished major rehabilitation works on several dams country-wide in 2008. Regular maintenance of dams is an important activity in our ministry because we want to ensure this infrastructure is used on a sustainable basis in order to advance our objectives in the water sector. In this regard, my ministry carried out maintenance on several dams around the country in 2008. We have also planned to carry out maintenance works on twenty-four dams country-wide once the 2009 budget is approved in order to achieve sustenance of this important infrastructure for the benefit of, especially, the local communities. We will also continue to construct boreholes for the purposes of preventing and eradicating trachoma, especially in Southern Province.

In 2008, my ministry built eighty boreholes for this purpose. We are targeting construction of seventy-five boreholes for Trachoma eradication in Southern Province in 2009.

My ministry is pursuing construction and maintenance works on rain water harvesters. Work that commenced in 2007 on the construction of rain harvesters and storage tanks at Kipishi Border Post in Solwezi District continued in 2008 …

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: …while work on the rehabilitation of rain water harvesters in Chinumba in Kapiri Mposhi was completed.

Mr Chairperson, as regards to water resources management, my ministry continued with our commitment to construct, assessment and monitoring boreholes throughout the country. We also intervened in emergency situations, especially in drought and flood prone areas, to mitigate the adverse effects of such natural disasters in 2008. Assessment and monitoring of boreholes are important to my ministry in its function of water resources management. These boreholes are used for measuring water quality and levels in order to successfully manage water resources for various uses.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that my ministry constructed a total of sixty-one boreholes for both the assessment and monitoring purposes and as mitigation measure for drought and flood prone areas. This compares favourably with our target of thirty assessment and monitoring boreholes and ten boreholes for drought prone areas for every year during the period of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP).

As regards to the regulatory matters, I would like to remind hon. Members of the House that  I indicated in my budget statement for 2008  that the Ministry of Energy and Water Development will expedite the enactment of the Water Resources Management Bill and ensure its full implementation. This important Bill is being finalised and will be tabled before the House hopefully during the current session of the National Assembly. My ministry has also finalised the revision of the 1994 National Water Policy and is awaiting its approval by Cabinet.

Mr Chairperson, as regards to the water sector, the pivotal role this sector plays in the economic growth of our country and overall national development cannot be over emphasised. In order to ensure that the sector makes a meaningful contribution to the economic development process, my ministry will continue to implement specific projects in water resources management and development activities in 2009. These activities will assist in the assessment, development and allocation of water resources in the priority sectors of economic development such as agriculture, tourism, environment, mining and manufacturing.

Mr Chairperson, in this respect, my ministry will concentrate on the following key activities in 2009:

(v) Institutional;

(vi) Infrastructure;

(vii) Management; and

(viii) Regulation.

As regards to institutional activities, with the funds made available to my ministry, we intend to rehabilitate three rigs and other accessories this year. Hon. Members may wish to know that on average, one rig can drill 100 boreholes per year. Therefore, this means that my ministry will be able to drill a total of 300 boreholes this year. Once we have rehabilitated the rigs, our projections are that on average, 250 people will have access to a borehole. This will bring the number of projected beneficiaries this year to 75,000 in the whole country. Furthermore, my ministry is targeting strategic institutions such as rural health centres, schools and other learning institutions as well as palaces for our traditional leaders.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: As regards to infrastructure, my ministry will continue with the dam construction, rehabilitation, expansion, assessment as well as monitoring of boreholes and the development of water resource through borehole construction in drought prone areas as an intervention in 2009.

Hon. Members may recall that in 2008, they favoured my ministry by approving the estimates that I tabled before this House. With the resources made available to the Ministry of Energy and Water Development in 2008, my ministry was able to complete construction works on some dams and commenced construction works on other dams in other parts of the country.

Mr Chairperson, however, my ministry faced some challenges in dam construction in 2008. The cost of building an earth dam increased remarkably during the year on account of dramatic increases in the cost of cement which is one of the major inputs in the construction process. The high cost of fuel for most of 2008 also had an adverse effect on the construction of water resource infrastructure such as dams and boreholes. It was only well into the third quarter of the year that the fuel crisis on the local market subsided.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development accomplished major rehabilitation works on several dams country-wide in 2008. Regular maintenance of dams is an important activity in our ministry because we want to ensure this infrastructure is used on a sustainable basis in order to advance our objectives in the water sector. In this regard, my ministry carried out maintenance on several dams around the country in 2008. We have also planned to carry out maintenance works on twenty-four dams country-wide once the 2009 budget is approved in order to achieve sustenance of this important infrastructure for the benefit of, especially, the local communities. We will also continue to construct boreholes for the purposes of preventing and eradicating trachoma, especially in Southern Province.

In 2008, my ministry built eighty boreholes for this purpose. We are targeting construction of seventy-five boreholes for Trachoma eradication in Southern Province in 2009.

My ministry is pursuing construction and maintenance works on rain water harvesters. Work that commenced in 2007 on the construction of rain harvesters and storage tanks at Kipishi Border Post in Solwezi District continued in 2008 …

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: …while work on the rehabilitation of rain water harvesters in Chinumba in Kapiri Mposhi was completed.

Mr Chairperson, as regards to water resources management, my ministry continued with our commitment to construct, assessment and monitoring boreholes throughout the country. We also intervened in emergency situations, especially in drought and flood prone areas, to mitigate the adverse effects of such natural disasters in 2008. Assessment and monitoring of boreholes are important to my ministry in its function of water resources management. These boreholes are used for measuring water quality and levels in order to successfully manage water resources for various uses.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that my ministry constructed a total of sixty-one boreholes for both the assessment and monitoring purposes and as mitigation measure for drought and flood prone areas. This compares favourably with our target of thirty assessment and monitoring boreholes and ten boreholes for drought prone areas for every year during the period of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP).

As regards to the regulatory matters, I would like to remind hon. Members of the House that  I indicated in my budget statement for 2008  that the Ministry of Energy and Water Development will expedite the enactment of the Water Resources Management Bill and ensure its full implementation. This important Bill is being finalised and will be tabled before the House hopefully during the current session of the National Assembly. My ministry has also finalised the revision of the 1994 National Water Policy and is awaiting its approval by Cabinet.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, the hospitals in the rural areas were done by the missionaries long before Northern Rhodesia became Zambia and I would like to commend them for a job well done by building a lot of them in most remote parts of this country.

Mr Chairperson, those hospitals have very well qualified doctors, but they have difficulties in executing their duties properly because of lack of energy. It is difficult for them, for example, to carryout operations on patients because they may use a diesel powered generator which shortly after being switched on may go off putting the life of the patient in the theatre at risk.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that lighting in whichever form, solar or electric, reaches our rural areas. I have been talking about Sichili Mission Hospital for a very long time now and I would like to refer to it again. This hospital is not a new one to a lot of people. The people of Kazungula, Livingstone, Luampa, Kaoma and part of Dundumwenzi know this hospital very well. If you go to Sesheke District were this hospital is situated, it is well known for its good work and the health services it renders to the people who go there for help, but it lacks electricity. This electric power is needed to ensure that quality service is rendered to the people. Therefore, I am requesting the hon. Minister not to leave out Sichili Mission Hospital in the master plan for rural electrification.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to note the allocation that has been made under Unit 2, programme 17, Activity 03 – Promotion of Oil Extraction Technology for small scale Farmers – k155,473,801. This is very progressive because the small scale farmers who are interested in oil extraction will have the opportunity to have some money to use to take part in this process. My prayer and hope is that as they do this, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will come to the aid of the farmers so that this money is put to good use.

Mr Chairperson, I am also happy to see that apart from what was done last year when there was an allocation towards the study of the implementation of bio fuels production, this year I see that there is an allocation for implementation of the bio fuels production and utilisation strategy in the tune of K271.634,463 million. This is a welcome move because people are not just talking now, but are getting into action. This is why we always say that this Government works and it is showing this by ensuring that the moneys are given to the people so that they can use the skills that they have.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: Finally, Sir, I want to talk about water development, especially the question of boreholes. In the rural areas, as you know, the water problem exists because the boreholes that are sunk do not last too long. This is because although our people are trained, they do not seem to look after them very well.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, at district level, boreholes are being serviced under the Danish International Development Agency (DANIDA). For a borehole to be sunk in an area, the residents of that area must contribute to this scheme a total amount of K1.5 million. I know that this scheme was brought by co-operating partners, but probably the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development in conjunction with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing can find a way of talking to our good friends, DANIDA, to understand that whilst it is important for people to own the boreholes, it is difficult for them to raise that kind of money. So, it is important that the hon. Minister together with his colleague at Local Government and Housing find an opportunity to talk to our good friends so that they lower the amount.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure the hon. Minister that he has my support and to urge my fellow hon. Members to support it.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that the Ministry of Energy and Water Development is one of the key economic ministries. It is one of the ministries we can use to achieve this Government’s objective of diversifying the economy, but I am disappointed that in the Yellow Book, I do not see any ambition to contribute to this cause.

Mr Chairperson, the ministries which support the vision of the Minister of Finance and National Planning, in that if they are on the course of diversification, they must also do everything possible to be ambitious enough to provide the infrastructure for that diversification to take place.

Mr Chairperson, diversification is not just about putting up industrial parks in Lusaka and the Copperbelt, but the whole country must be involved in this process. I was really disappointed by the policy statement from the hon. Minister when he came to the issues of water affairs. He was not really concise and never gave it the attention that it deserves. That is why I am questioning whether diversification is just rhetoric or this Government really means it.

Mr Chairperson, diversification means that you must put the infrastructure for the people to work and achieve it and by this I mean the producers in the rural areas and everywhere. In the area of dam construction, I would like to thank the previous speakers, especially Hon. D Mwila, here who said that we need a work plan because a work plan gives us an opportunity to monitor your performance. Most of the ministries do not want work plans because they do not want to be judged or monitored and so they hide in business, as usual, so that they are no bench marks to judge them.

Mr Chairperson, all ministries must have annual work plans so that we can judge them on their delivery. The reason this Ministry is failing is because it lacks a clear work plan.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, on the area of dam construction, I want to speak for the drought prone areas of our country like Southern, Eastern, parts of Central Province and even those other areas which have a lot of water in our country. This country needs an ambitious dam construction. If we are to involve our people in serious activities in the rural areas, it is going to be good because most of this hunger is caused by lack of planning in this country. Our people in the rural areas only work for three months in a year, when God brings down rains, and we have failed to make use of this water for all year productive activities. I want to tell you that the greatest blessing God has given us is land and water. We have land, but we are not trapping the water. For example, we failed to trap clean and fresh water this year and last year. Just imagine! People are now even wondering what is wrong with Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, through you, hon. Minister and I think your technocrats must come up with a work plan on …

The Deputy Chairperson: I do not like the use of, ‘through you.’ I prefer the manner in which you have been debating all along.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I would want to see a serious work plan drawn up by the hon. Minister so that we can judge you on your performance. When you are mentioning the …

The Deputy Chairperson: Avoid direct address. For example it should be judge them and not you. Can you address the Chair.

Mr Hamududu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The Government has not been forthcoming, for example, on how many dams were constructed and rehabilitated. This is because they lack a yardstick. For example, in my constituency, which is drought prone and relies on livestock, there is no single dam which has been rehabilitated. Basically, these two and a half years I have been in Parliament, nothing has been done in my district. I wonder where this K4 billion is going. This year actually, this Government has reduced the allocation of dam construction to eight. Therefore, I wonder what diversification they are talking about, if they cannot harvest water which is one of the key elements for our production activities in the rural areas. This is because they are saying he must diversify agriculture, tourism and other areas where we have competitive advantage, but we are doing nothing to provide the support infrastructure to boost economic activities in these rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, in Bweengwa constituency, the biggest dams which are there were constructed in the colonial times. This is in my village where I used to herd cattle. I am telling you that one dam was constructed by the colonialist in 1946 and it is the only dam that served us to raise our cattle. We have come this far because of it and the colonialists used cheap labour to construct it. This Government has the resources, but they are complaining of the high price of cement and oil when the price of the latter has come down now. These rural dams do not require so much cement. Munyenze Dam was built without cement.  It was just soil which they put together. So, we must not hide in other excuses. The rural dams do not need a high quantity of cement. I hope this time the Government will make movements in the area of dam construction because the price of fuel has come down. Otherwise, this thing, so-called diversification, is just a pipe dream because the supporting ministries are doing nothing to provide infrastructure for serious economic activities.

Mr Chairperson, let me come to the area of rural electrification. This Government is good at making plans, but they throw them away in this House. I have a privilege of having a very sharp memory. When we just came here the then hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development was Hon. Mutati. He brought to us a rural electrification plan and growth areas were identified, even in my constituency and other parts of the country, but up to now there is no progress which has been made. This is because what the current hon. Minister was supposed to do was to develop it further. However, I will not be surprised if they ask for money to go to workshops and make another plan instead of developing the one that is already there. I still have the plan. So, if you lost it I can bring mine. There is a plan which we were given here. It is just a timeframe when you will do those specific identified projects which is needed. 

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency, I have in mind Kaumunzhya School, as you just approach Monze you will see this school on old Namwala Road. It is over four years and the Government has failed to connect this school. I have been going to ZESCO almost every month, but nothing is moving. When I go there they say,” no, the truck is in Lusaka to pick poles”. What is the problem with REA? The projects which are already in pipeline are not completed because they have no timeframe. At Choongo’s palace and Nteme Basic School they are failing to drop the lines …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: …. and it is over 4 years now. I thank the late hon. Member of Parliament for my constituency, Hon. Japhet Chibulo Moonde, may his soul rest in peace. He did a lot to push, but up to now nothing is happening. They are failing to just drop the lines so that this school and palace and other schools can access electricity and it is over four years now. So, please, can you put up serious timeframes?

Finally, Mr Chairperson, I want to say that I have seen a line here on HIV/AIDS activities. Most of these ministries do not have an HIV/AIDS work policy. I hope you have. There, I am seeing allocations in each ministry and I wonder what activities are being funded without a policy to guide the utilisation of that money. We need to serve our engineers in these ministries. This vote I am seeing here, I hope this ministry, I am not very sure, whether it has an HIV/AIDS policy to justify this K90,400,000. Those ministries that do not have policies must not be given money until they develop HIV/AIDS policies so that we begin to target the use of our money.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this vote and I am a man of very few words.

Mr Kambwili: Tom and Jerry.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I feel very disappointed that during the time when we had a very serious power outage, the whole country was crying, but now since there is an improvement because of the able Minister who is doing a good job …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: … and his members of staff, nobody has stood up to thank these people.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: I thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, is that hon. Member of Parliament, a greenhorn, in order …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you withdraw the greenhorn.

Mr Muyanda: Is that hon. Member of Parliament in order to …

The Deputy Chairperson: You have not withdrawn the use of the word greenhorn.

Mr Muyanda: I withdraw the word greenhorn.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right.

Mr Muyanda: Is that hon. Member of Parliament in order to mislead this nation that there was no single person in this august House, who commended ZESCO management for having up-rated the generators in Kafue Gorge and Kariba, when I personally, stood here three months ago. Is he in order to mislead this House. I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member raising that point order indeed, may not have praised REA, but I do remember that there are some who praised them. So, he is in order.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mbewe: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I want to put it on record that we had problems over power, but we are moving to the better. The way it was last year  is not the way it is now. Where praises are supposed to be showered, I shower them to the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development and his staff.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: I propose not shower.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, English pronunciations depend on who taught you and where you come from.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Efilyako mwaiche kuli two vacancies ya kwa Shakafuswa na Mbulakulima.

The Deputy Chairperson: Give him a chance to debate. You are not giving him the chance to do so.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I want to register my thanks to the Minister and his staff for a job well done on up-rating Kariba and Kafue Gorge.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe:  I feel the whole House is going to assist to support this budget so that these people who are doing a very good job can even do much better than what they are doing now.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, electricity is the backbone of our economy. Last year a lot of places were not electrified. However, we are in this House to approve the Budget for this year. In supporting this Budget, I would like to urge the Government to ensure that this year ZESCO electrifies all the areas that are supposed to be electrified so that a lot of places have power.

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency there is a place called Chanida Border. This place can generate a lot of income, but has no electricity. Therefore, I am asking the hon. Minister of Energy and Water or whatever …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is not ‘whatever’ but the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development.

Mr Kambwili: Tawaishiba na ministry iwe. [You do not even know the ministry]

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, I am asking the hon. Minister to ensure that Chanida Border is electrified soon so that the base of revenue of the country is increased.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about water. A lot of dams where we come from are being silted because of lack of maintenance. Therefore, there is need for the ministry to move in and start de-silting the dams so that we do not end up without them in future.

Mr Chairperson, I am also concerned about the boreholes in villages. The boreholes sunk by the Ministry of Energy and Water Development should be shared equally in our constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I want to point out that there are people who come to this House to represent their people in supporting the national Budget. However, others come here just to cause divisions which are not necessary.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mbewe: They start divisions but lose in the end.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Why do they start issues which they fail to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe continued standing.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mbewe, order means you stop debating and sit down.

In this House, we are here to debate and anybody has the right to ask for a division and whether they lose or win is immaterial. So, can you move on to something else if you have not finished.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Laughter

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Chairperson, I will start by commending the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Zulu: … and his colleague, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, for allocating K4 billion towards earth dam construction. I will start my debate by reading from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s Budget address. On page 1, paragraph 8:

“Sir, just as we expect citizens to work hard to drive our economy forward, they expect Government to play its role in creating a conducive and competitive environment for wealth creation and poverty reduction in every part of our country.”

Mr Chilembo: End of quote.

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, for a along time, water has never been dammed in this country. We have had complaints every year that there are floods in many parts of this country. Whenever there are floods, the Government goes to the affected areas to give people relief food. The idea should not be to give people relief food in this country but create opportunities and a conducive environment so that people can grow their own food.

Major Chibamba: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu:  Mr Chairperson, floods only last for two months in this country. If we have dams, people would still be able to grow their winter crops even if there were floods.

Mr Hamududu: Yes.

Mr Zulu:  That is what we need in this country. However, most of my fellow hon. Members of Parliament are always demanding for relief food instead of finding a lasting solution to this problem. This morning I was disappointed with what the Vice-President told this House.

Mr Mubika: Hammer!

Mr Zulu: About K17 billion has been allocated towards food aid. This money could have been used to construct thirty-nine earth dams in this country. The K4 billion allocation will be used to construct nine earth dams which will give us enough water for one year. Even my colleagues from Southern Province will have their animals drinking water from these dams.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: There will be fish in these dams and people will also be able to irrigate their winter crops.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu:  Mr Chairperson, this habit of complaining every year about floods is not good. We need to start seeing floods as an opportunity instead of a disaster.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: I will give an example of what has now happened in Indonesia. You may be aware that the Tsunami there damaged a lot of fishing boats and ships. What has now happened is that people there have taken all the timber from the damaged fishing boats and ships and used it to make cheap furniture. They have taken a disaster and turned it into an opportunity.

Mr Mubika: Quality debate.

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, that is what we also need to do, instead of complaining and asking for relief food every time.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: Bauze. [Tell them]

Mr Zulu: Mr Chairperson, a good leader or manager is one who takes people from poverty to riches …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: … and not the one who takes people from riches to poverty through corruption. So what our colleagues on your right have to do is to listen to our advice. Even us on this side, should advise our friends positively …

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: … and not just attack them for no reason. We should advise them in a way that will enable us to move forward together.

Mr Chairperson, I am just giving a friendly warning to my fellow hon. Members of Parliament. In the 2011 general elections, what will determine whether each one of us is coming back to this House, regardless of whether we are on your left and right hand side, is what we do collectively.

Mr Sichilima: Yes!

Mr Zulu: It is not whether we are in Government or the Opposition. So we need to work together as a team.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear! Ema hon. Members of Parliament aya.

Mr Zulu: Now, since the Government is going to construct dams, each hon. Member of Parliament here has to go to his or her constituency to see the progress on these projects. Every year we need to evaluate how much our constituencies have benefited from each one of us as the area hon. Member of Parliament. That is the most important thing. We have to ask ourselves how much we have done for our constituencies and the country. Working collectively we will succeed.

The other day, I was very happy to listen to my colleague, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when he said that if each one of you – maybe I should start by declaring my interest. Last year, I grew 300 tonnes of maize …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Did you say 300 tonnes or 300 bags?

Mr Zulu: I said 300 tonnes of maize which is 6,000 bags of maize. In support of my colleague the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. If each one of us grew ten tonnes of maize, this country would go forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me an opportunity to add my voice to this very important vote.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development with specific reference to the catastrophe of 19th January, 2008 when the country was engulfed in a power blackout out of unexpected circumstances.

Mr Mulyata: Ulabeja! [ You are not telling the truth]

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, as you are aware, that power outage which followed consistent load shedding caused a lot of stress among our citizens. Therefore, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister as well as the state institutions that were involved in reducing the power outages and the load shedding. Hon. Minister, congratulations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: As many people have often referred to electricity, I too concur with them that electricity is another definition for civilisation.

I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for placing K72 billion in REA for this year.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I, however have a few reservations as to the actual practical success of the programme. Not so long ago, I asked the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development a question on how he intended to deal with the tariffs for the people in the rural areas who do not have disposable income. His response was that they were going to arrive at a formula where they were going to put a special discount or subsidise rates for people in that category, which appears good. However, I have a few comments to make. The bulk of the consumers of electricity in this country are teachers, nurses, policemen, soldiers or in general civil servants who also earn very little money. It is also true that industries, especially the mining industry, have enjoyed a very good tariff from the electricity providers because they buy it in bulk.

In short, the intended tariff increments are going to harm the civil servants that I have just listed. You know very well hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that they do not get sufficient emolument to meet their monthly needs. This is an area that I wish you could look at it very carefully as you arrive at this formula of giving subsidy to the people who dwell in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, coming to the actual projects that the Government has embarked on, beginning with the Itezhi Tezhi project that they have partnered with TATA of India, I want to encourage the hon. Minister to move very fast in this regard. Before the late President Levy Mwanawasa died, may his soul rest in peace, he indicated that the Itezhi Tezhi Hydro project was on course and, that all things being equal, the project would be up and running by the end of this year, if I am not mistaken.

Mr Chairperson, recently, the hon. Minister indicated that there are still some studies going on which I think leaves a lot of dissatisfaction in my head. I wish the hon. Minister as he responds would give the exact position on how far they have gone with this project.

Mr Chairperson, next month, on 6th March, 2009, ZESCO will be launching the Kariba North Bank extension power project. I also want to encourage the hon. Minister to make sure that the contractors of this project are observed so that they keep up to the time and conclude this project as quickly as they can.

Mr Chairperson, at this point in time, may I congratulate the hon. Minister and his Government for allowing the Chinese to come and work on this project. They are diligent people and I know they will deliver.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Many a time, we have stated that the real solution to our power shortages in this country lies in the Kafue Gorge Lower. This is a project whose feasibility study was done in the year 1997. As I have said many times before, human beings come and go, but institutions live on. Hon. Suresh Desai, at that time sitting in the same position where Hon. Konga is sitting, made a pronouncement that works were going to begin after the feasibility study had been done at Lower Kafue Gorge. It is eleven years later and it is still the MMD Government giving us these assurances that the Kafue Gorge Lower will be completed by the year 2015.

Through you, Sir, the hon. Minister must now know that his story about Kafue Gorge Lower and the international financing company and their appointment to be transaction advisors to this Government is now stale because it is the same thing every year, Hon. Konga. Last week I asked him a specific question on how much money the Government was putting in the project and who the partners were. Unfortunately, he failed to give a satisfactory response lamentably, but to simply say they had engaged an international financing company as transaction advisors. This is a US$2 million project, and like many of my colleagues have said, electricity is the starting point to industrial development and you know that. You do not need to be told. However, eleven years later, we are being told that there is a feasibility study going on, yet again. Where is the seriousness?

In 2015, I pray that the hon. Minister will be alive and I am going to ask him about the Kafue Gorge Lower. Last week, the Government gave an assurance that by 2015, all things being equal, they intend to have the Kafue Gorge Lower with the capacity of 750 mega watts out put. I am also hopeful that year after year, he will be giving us, until 2015, a progress report on how far they have gone on the development of this Station because enough has been said about power.

Sir, I wish now to draw the hon. Members’ attention to the water sector, a subject which is extremely dear to many hon. Members of Parliament. This Government must now learn to harvest water. There is no need for us to cry for water when year in year out water goes into Kabrabassa Dam and then into the Indian ocean after a flood calamity. What is the problem? Why can you not dam a few rivers hon. Minister? What is the reason for failing to do that? I will give you an example and Hon. Maxwell Mwale will attest to it. At Konkola in Chililabombwe, we have one of the wettest mines in the whole world. They harvest water in a day sufficient enough to make the inhabitants of Lusaka use. This water is off loaded into the Kafue River, Kabrabassa Dam and then into the Indian Ocean. What is the matter? We all know that 40 per cent plus or minus of this country is in water bodies and yet, we are a hungry nation. A totally hungry nation full of manufactured crisis, instead of growing our own food, we want to import food. I know someone will say that we have talked enough about food. Hon. Minister, you do not need to be magical about what I am talking about. Last year, you put money for…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you address the Chair.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning last year, Hon. Magande, allocated money for borehole drilling as well as damming of rivers. Like I said earlier, human beings come and go, institutions live on and so right now it is the current hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who is answerable to these charges.

In my constituency, there are many dilapidated dams that require not more than K50 million to rehabilitate.  We have to now allocate little moneys from this trickle of Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to try and capture water in our dams but because of the obvious, money is not sufficient. We cannot do a good job and so year in year out, dam walls collapse. I urge the hon. Minister to be a little bit more forthright and do the right thing. I think it is pointless to simply condemn but caution the hon. Minister that if you fail to dam rivers, if he fails, Mr Chairperson…

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right.

Mr Nkombo: … the people of Zambia are going to judge you harshly together with his colleagues seated on your right hand side. They are going to remove them no matter how flamboyant you want to appear here in this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: They are going to kick you out of office and we will come and take this country forward.  We are determined. I am speaking here as a shadow minister of energy on my part.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: We are going to come in and dam the rivers within a year and it is not a joke. I want to adopt the words of Hon. Zulu as my own where you want to make a Ciholehole food relief like a traditional annual ceremony. You must every year budget. Build dams and forget about Ciholehole.

Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I truly thank all the hon. Members for their contributions and positive recommendations they have made.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can we all listen.

You may continue, please.

Mr Konga: By and large, most of the hon. Members have spoken about the need for work plans, especially regarding infrastructure construction …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have always advised that if you want to consult, there is no harm in you marching to the lobby.

The hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development may continue, please.

Mr Konga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Most of the hon. Members have highlighted the need for work plans. We did produce a work plan in the rural electrification sector which was circulated, but I concede we will make the rural electrification plan this year. In addition, once resources are approved by the House, we will disburse our plan for dam maintenance, rehabilitation and construction for hon. Members to see and comment on.

Sir, most of the hon. Members spoke about the importance of electricity and I greatly appreciate their support to show that the resources that will be approved by the House will be there, especially those resources that will go towards rural electrification which will go a long way in enhancing the quality of life for the people in the rural areas so that they too can undertake different economic activities that will go towards job creation and create wealth in the long term and improve their lives. I commend hon. Members for their support on this call.

Sir, Hon. Mabenga spoke about the need for energy development in land resettlement areas. Yes, I would like to state that because of the geographical expanse of this country, some of the efforts that the Government is undertaking are not really visible but my ministry has embarked on areas like farming blocks such as Nansanga Farm Block. The ministry has already spent money on this. In fact, even in this year’s budget, there is a provision to provide electricity to Nansanga Farm Block so that we can as a nation diversify the economy as some hon. Members alluded to. This is because we can promote tourism using water, improve agriculture, expand fish farming and a lot of other economic activities using energy and dams that have been provided. Of course, with more resources that we are going to make available in future, we shall be able to extend such facilities to other areas like the Mumbwa concession and Luena. However, I concede that we do not have enough resources at this stage to do all these activities at the same time throughout the country. With time, we are going to undertake all these activities.

Mr Chairperson, as I mentioned in my policy statement, we want to diversify the energy mix and to this extent, I agree with Hon. Mabenga about the little provision for oil extraction for our small-scale farmers which we hope our officers can use…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We do not seem to be listening.

You may continue.

Mr Konga: … to sensitise our rural population on the need to diversify not only in growing maize but that they also can grow other crops from which they can earn cash. For instance, if they can grow Jatropha using the oil extraction facilities, they can extract oil that they can sell and save the country huge amounts of money in foreign exchange through forceful fuel imports.

On the issue of one of the co-operating partners charging K1.5 million to the residents, I will follow it up. My office will follow it to ensure that we find some amicable solution to this.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Hamududu spoke at length on the need for diversification, but as I have said, I think this country is really committed to diversifying the economy and my ministry as you pointed out is very keen on ensuring the economic diversification objectives are realised. Therefore, it might appear as though resources are not there but we have put them. For instance, this year, we plan to construct four dams throughout the country. These dams, if you our colleagues on the other side of Mr Chairperson’s left…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development may continue.

Mr Konga: Some of these facilities already do exist. We have dams spread across the country. My appeal is to you, our colleagues, to sensitise our communities to use these facilities to enhance, for instance, agriculture production, beef production and to promote tourism. These facilities are available. Of course, it is not throughout the country but where they do exist, I would like to appeal to you our colleagues to help the Government as opposed to just criticising them.

Mr Chairperson, the Rural Electrification Fund will be made available and will indicate the areas that have been electrified. We are going to make those plans available for all hon. Members of Parliament.

I am grateful to Hon. Mbewe for the support, given the trying time that the country is going through. Last year, when we had challenges in the electricity sector, we pulled through with the support of everybody.

Mr Chairperson, the Government will endeavour to ensure that these institutions provide the right quality and quantity of energy to its citizens to encourage economic development because it is only with energy that we can develop this country.

Sir, I agree with Hon. Zulu of Bwana Mkubwa Constituency that we should put more effort on acquiring more water resource points as opposed to looking for relief food. If you have water resources that people can utilise, they can sustain themselves as opposed to looking for handouts.

Mr Chairperson, although the Treasury has many constraints in providing resources to all the needy social sectors of this country, such as schools, hospitals and roads, we shall see what we can do to provide for more resources such as, dam construction next year.

Sir, I also agree with Hon. Nkombo for Mazabuka Central Constituency, especially regarding Itezhi-tezhi. We need to quickly conclude this project. Hon. Nkombo is the Chairperson for the Committee on Energy here at Parliament and would be better informed that the studies were completed. ZESCO and TATA are working together. The challenge that has arisen is that a financial consensus has not been reached between ZESCO and its partner. The Government is making an effort to ensure that this issue is quickly resolved to address the challenges of the energy deficit in the country.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to tariffs and the civil servants, I wish to say that they do not only affect civil servants. It is important to have cost effective tariffs in order to attract investment in the sector. If there is no investment in the sector, the projected growth …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us consult quietly so that we can give chance to the hon. Minister to conclude.

Mr Konga: … that we anticipate will not happen because we have all admitted that we need electricity for any economic activity to take thrive. If there is no investment in energy, there will be nothing to drive this projected growth.

Therefore, I would like to appeal to you, hon. Members and, especially Hon. Nkombo, that we sensitise our electorates in our constituencies on the need to accept these cost reflective tariffs. This notwithstanding, there is a left lying tariff for those members of our society who are disadvantaged where the first 100 units are zero rated to enable them to survive. Once, again, I would like to appeal to you to support this effort of migration to cost effective tariffs.

Mr Chairperson, regarding Kafue Gorge Lower, it is true that some studies were done eleven years ago. However, the studies that were done then did not come up with the optimum location where we could get optimum energy. This is why this Government has thought of carrying out further studies so that we can get the optimum location to get 750 mega watts. The studies that were done eleven years ago sited an area where you could get 450 mega watts. It would be a waste of resources if you use the Kafue Gorge Lower and get only 450 mega watts as opposed to 750 mega watts. That is why this Government thought of engaging the International Financing Company (IFC) to be its transaction advisers to carryout studies to get the maximum energy from this facility.

Mr Chairperson, by and large, I am grateful for the comments from hon. Members of Parliament regarding the need for rehabilitation of dams with resources available as well as the need to have a work plan. I am grateful that all of them have supported this Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda Stood up!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am still reading and I have not finished. The rule is that you wait until I finish.

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Headquarters K111,550,298,720).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 6, Activity 04 – Maintenance of VIP Accommodation – K49,440,000 and Activity 05 – Rentals for VIPs – K61,800,000. I would like to find out why this ministry, alone, of all Government ministries, besides the Ministry of Works and Supply, is the one that has allocations for maintenance of VIP accommodation and rentals for VIPs when the function for maintenance of accommodation is a function of the Ministry of Works and Supply? Why are we budgeting for this through this ministry?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, minor works for the residences for VIPs is done by the respective ministries throughout the Government. The major works are done by the Ministry of Works and Supply. Similarly, rentals for VIPs, who are not accommodated by the Ministry of Works and Supply are done by their respective ministries.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/02 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development –Energy Department – K4, 787,799,425).

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Inspection and Monitoring of Projects – K117, 309,960. I would like to find out why there is a reduction this year compared to what was provided for last year?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, the Department of Energy undertakes various projects throughout the country in different years. Some of these projects were done last and that is why this time around fewer of them will be inspected and monitored this year.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, Unit 2, Programme 25, Activity 01 – Installation of Wind Energy Systems – K159, 937,072. Can the hon. Minister explain what is contained in this activity? Where will these energy systems be installed at the cost of K159, 937,072?

Sir, with your permission, the related matter …

The Deputy Chairperson: No, just one question is allowed.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, this item relates to the studies that will be undertaken. As a national policy document, we are still undertaking different forms of energy because our officers are going out to do this work in the field. I cannot specifically indicate here where they are going to do the studies to know the wind speeds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, Bio diesel is the future of energy in this country. I notice that in fact under, Unit 2, Programme 25, Activity 06 – Development of Prototype Wind Energy Systems and Activity 07 – Promotion of Electricity Generation through Solar/biodiesel Hybrids has not been provided for, but that is where the studies and energy for the future comes from. Is the hon. Minister becoming unprogressive?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, Activity – 7 contains Solar and bio diesels.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 26, Activity 01 – Promotion of the use of coal, uranium and other energy minerals – K100, 000,000. Can the hon. Minister tell us how possible it is to utilise energy from uranium minus a nuclear reactor which may cost between US$2 or US $3 billion?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, the first word there is promotion and that is where the emphasis lies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 16, Activity 01 – Improvement of Charcoal Production in the Earth Kiln – K129, 659,489. Last year, K99, 850,000 was provided, but has been increased this year. I would like to find out if, at all, we are encouraging charcoal burning?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, we are not encouraging charcoal production, but there are special earth kilns which we would like to utilise which will go towards forest conversation, as a matter of fact.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I am making a follow up on Hon. Lubinda’s question, on Unit 2, Programme 25, Activity 01 – Installation of Wind Energy Systems – K159, 937,072. In the Budget, it is clearly stated that it is for the installation of Wind Energy Systems, but the hon. Minister said studies. Feasibility studies and installations are two different terms. What do you want this money for? Is it a ghost activity?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, English says installation can be used for study purposes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 26, Activity 01 – Promotion of the use of coal, uranium and other energy minerals– K100, 000,000. The hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka asked about the absence of a nuclear reactor, but the hon. Minister simply dismissed the question by stating that emphasis was on promotion. As a Member of Parliament, who has been asked to be part to passing this Budget, I insist to be told.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can ask you your question.

Mr Lubinda: Can the hon. Minister, please, inform this House how he intends to use K100, 000,000 in the promotion of the use of uranium as an energy source when there is no nuclear reactor in Zambia and do not say only to promote?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, we are focusing on semantics because you cannot, of course, produce nuclear reactors from K100, 000,000. However, we want to promote through advertising on radio programmes and many others. It is all about sensitisation.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/04 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Planning Information Department – K2,852,178,133).

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on …

Mr Lubinda Standing behind Dr Scott.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, there are two of you standing, but only one person has been given the Floor.

Dr Scott: … Unit 1, Programme 15, Activity 07 – Process Parliamentary Query. Last year, K10, 000,000 was provided for this Process, but nothing has been allocated this year. Is the hon. Minister not intending to answer any Parliamentary Queries this year?

Mr Konga: This activity has been merged with the programme under Unit 1, Programme 15, Activity 05, Parliamentary/ Cabinet Liaison Meetings – k48, 000,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 12, Activity 01 – Southern Africa Development Corporation Consultative Meetings - K32, 800,000. May I find out whether, in that allocation, there are also resources earmarked for Zambia to sign onto ZAMCOM that it has not since 2004?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, ZAMCOM is not considered in this particular activity.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/01 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K29,823,220,257).

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. M. B. Mwale): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on the Estimates of Expenditure and Revenue for my ministry for the 2009 fiscal year.

Mr Chariperson, let me take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his team for a well prepared and presented 2009 Activity Based Budget. May I equally take this opportunity to thank His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda for entrusting me with the position of hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can you either keep quiet or go out to the lobby. I am referring to the three of you at the back on my right (Dr Scot, Mr V. Mwale and Mr Chibombamilimo).

Continue hon. Minister.

Mr M. M. B. Mwale: …at a time such as this. As you are all aware, the mining industry has suffered the consequences of the metal price meltdown. However, being a mining engineer, I take this as a personal challenge and also an opportunity for us as a nation to unite in the face of economic challenges.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for my ministry is to formulate, implement, monitor and evaluate policy on exploration, development, exploitation and down stream processing of mineral resources in the country in a safe, economic and sustainable manner for the optimum benefit of the Zambian people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the House may therefore wish to know that my ministry is responsible for managing the mineral resources of the country which starts with exploration through to mine development, downstream processing and exportation of products. Monitoring of the operations of the mining industry in as far as this compliance to legal requirements and business sustainability; and monitoring seismic activities through out the country to facilitate appropriate interventions.

Mr Chairperson, exploration for different minerals around the country continued by various private explorations and mining companies which include the following:

(a) Mutanga Project, formerly Kariba Uranium Project in Southern Province by Denison Mines Corporation;

(b) Albdidon Zambia Limited through a joint venture with African Energy Resources in Southern Province;

(c) Lumwana Mines Uranium Resources in North-Western Province by Equinox Copper Ventures Limited;
(d) Chongwe/Cheowa  Iron Ore, Copper and Gold prospects in Chongwe by Zambezi Resources Limited;

(e) Mkushi Copper Project in Central Province by first Quantum Mining and Operations Limited; and

(f) Mkushi Joint Venture Copper Project in Central Province by Katanga Resources Limited.

Mr Chairperson, geological mapping of Luapula and Northern Provinces continued in 2008. Mapping of four quarter degree sheet areas, equivalent to 10,000 square kilometres in Northern Province, through the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA), the Project was completed. The geological maps with accompanying reports are expected by mid 2009. This programme will continue this year.

Sir, the results from these exploration works are promising and set a firm foundation for development of the mining industry in the future, particularly, in the Luapula and Northern Provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr M. M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, exploration for oil and gas was extended to Northern, Luapula and Southern Provinces. 190 soil samples were collected from the three provinces for microbial analysis in Germany. This programme will also continue this year.

Sir, the demarcated blocks by province are as follows:

Province   Number
North-Western Province 16

Western Province   8
Eastern Province   5

As regards to Northern, Luapula and Southern Province, some areas have shown positive indications for oil and gas and these areas will be demarcated into blocks after infill sampling.

Lieutenant-General Shakafuswa: Quality!

Mr M. M. B. Mwale: Sir, the areas with good potential for oil and gas demarcated into exploration blocks, will be put out to tender for prospective oil exploration companies to bid. This work will be done by the petroleum committee upon being reconstituted, and at which point the relevant regulations on environmental standards and trust fund should be in place. The petroleum trust fund as legislated by this House is intended to develop communities within the area in which petroleum exploration or development and production operations are conducted.

Mr Chairperson, the successful bidders will be required to conduct detailed exploration for oil and gas in order to ascertain the size of reserves and quality of oil and/or gas which will determine commercial viability.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has provided for Uranium Mining and Petroleum Exploration and Production through the Uranium Regulations and the Petroleum (Explorations and Production) Act 2008 respectively.

My Chairperson, my ministry continued to implement a number of programmes which included the establishment of computerised cadastre and geographical information system. Technical work on the new cadastre system was done and the new system was launched in May, 2008.

Mr Chairperson, during the year, the Government undertook a trip to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) at ministerial level to explore modalities for the resumption of importation of copper and cobalt ores and concentrates into Zambia. In this way, Government has opened a way for resumption of operations of assets under stress due to lack of feed stock. In particular, Bwana Mkubwa has been encouraged to engage miners in DRC for the sourcing and supply of materials.

Mr Chairperson, the economic recession continues to take a toll on our mining industry. However, despite this jobs continue to be created at Lumwana Mine and Chambeshi Copper Smelter as they ramp up their operations.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry continued with mine inspection programmes to ensure compliance with mining and explosives regulations. Regrettably, the sector recorded an increase in fatal accidents in 2008 compared to 2007. Twenty fatal accidents were recorded in 2008 compared to fifteen in 2007. The rise in fatal accidents was attributed to poor training of new employees. This gives impetus to my ministry to closely monitor operations in the mining industry.

Mr Chairperson, the vision of the ministry is to have a vibrant, well organised private sector and private public partnership contributing 6 per cent to gross domestic product (GDP). Therefore, my ministry is 2009 will focus on the following key areas.

(a) recruitment of professional staff to fill vacant positions;

(b) geological and structural mapping to attract investment in small scale and large scale mines;

(c) mineral exploration and resource surveys for non-traditional minerals such as uranium, coal, oil and gas;

(d) rehabilitation and commissioning of laboratories and testing facilities to enhance the ministry’s analytical and monitoring capacity;

(e) monitoring of production and exports of minerals and gemstones; and

(f) enhancing the operations of the modern computerised mining cadastre system to streamline mining rights administration.

Mr Chairperson, given the developments that took place in the sector in 2008, particularly, the fall in the metal prices, as a result of world recession, the sector is in 2009 faced with the challenge to remain viable and contribute to the socio-economic development of the country.

With the measures mining companies are devising to reduce production costs and increase levels of production coupled with Government stimulus package announced by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I am confident that the sector will remain afloat.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I would like to appeal to the House to support my ministry’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Vote. 
Mr Chairperson, I have observed that there are has been a cut in the allocation to the mine inspectorate. At the same time, this Government is aware of the arm twisting tactics that the new mine owners have engaged in of late. It is my sincere hope that this cut in the allocation will not increase the number of accidents on the mines because in Mufulira, we are ready to do anything possible to protect the people on the mines.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, we do not want to see a situation where our people are killed in mine accidents in the name of the economic meltdown. We do not want a situation where mine sector standards will be compromised.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated that fatal accidents on the mines were on the increase last year. This is a year we had enough allocation of funds. Now, what do we expect with a cut in the allocation of funds? Unless the mine inspectorate improves its standards, we will see the opposite of what happened last year.

Mr Chairperson, I do not want take too long. Therefore, let me turn to the issue of the 900 mine jobs to be lost in Mopani Copper Mines. I am aware that where ever Glenco may be, they are boasting that they are the only investors in Zambia who have got a Zambian management. However, this Zambian management is not respected by these same investors. Mopani Copper Mines intends to lay off 900 employees because they rejected the budget that was prepared by this management. However, this was not the case when the said management was led by expatriates. I do not think this is the way we should treat our Zambians. Are these Zambian managers just going to be used to produce for them and not make decisions that are for the benefit of the country? I think that the investors must change their attitude. They must be able to respect our Zambian managers. 
Otherwise, as a country, we will end up hating each and quarreling amongst ourselves while the ones pulling the strings laugh at us. I think that the Zambian managers should be able to make decisions that are beneficial and in the best interest of this country. 
Mr Chairperson, I am saying so because I had the privilege, as a unionist sitting with the same management during negotiations. At that time, we had expatriate managers or decision makers. Now, they have left these decisions in the hands of Zambians while privately taking away their powers. What they want us to do as Zambians is to point fingers at our brothers and say that they have failed to run the mines. I think that this is very unfair.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: They should not hide in this situation. If they want, they should come back and be the decision makers instead of using our brothers and sisters, who are not even allowed to make decisions. They are being unfair. At the same time, when it comes to recruitment of expatriates, our brothers and sisters, the Zambian management officials, have no say even in the employment of a spanner boy. Yet, as said earlier on, wherever they are, they are boasting of being the only investors who have enough money to put Zambians in management.

Mr Chairperson, I have talked about the safety of employees. Now, I would like to talk generally about the well being of the mines. You have heard about pollution in the mine areas. There is water contamination in these areas. However, before I go into more detail about the welfare of the mines, I just want to say that if the investors want to pull out of Mufulira, they should first look at the Houses that they have damaged in Butondo Township. Even some houses belonging to the Ministry of Home Affairs are damaged.

Mr Kambwili: The police camp.

Mr Chanda: The police officers cannot even occupy these houses. I invited the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to go and inspect these houses, but nothing has been done. I was waiting for a report, but none was forthcoming. Now you want to allow them to leave after doing all this damage. That is unacceptable. As long as I am the hon. Member of Parliament  for that area, I will not accept it. 
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: If Hon. Kambwili demonstrated alone, I will also do it …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: but in a different style.

Mr Chairperson. I would now like to get back to the issue of water pollution. Our investors have been hiding in the economic meltdown. This is unacceptable. In Mufulira, we do not want to see a situation where water will be polluted day in and day out because they have no money to buy pumps. That will be unacceptable. Let them be told that we will not take anymore of that acid water. We are tired. When a person takes something that is contaminated, what do you think will happen to their organs like kidneys?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 2nd March, 2009.