DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 6th March, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour, the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Dr Kalombo T. Mwansa (MP), hon. Minister of Home Affairs, will acquaint the House with the Business it will consider next week. However, His Honour, the Vice-President may join the House later on this morning.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: May the Acting Leader of Government Business indicate Business of the House for next week.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the Business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 10th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply for this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

(a) Head 20 ─ Loans and Investments ─ Ministry of Local Government and Housing;

(b) Head 29 ─ Ministry of Local Government and Housing; and

(c) Head 77 ─ Ministry of Defence.

Sir, on Wednesday, 11th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2009 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

(a) Head 68 ─ Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources;

(b) Head 78 ─ Office of the President ─ Zambia Security Intelligence Services; and

(c) Head 80 ─ Ministry of Education.

Sir, on Friday, 13th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. Then the House will consider Questions, if the will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.  Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2009 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

(a) Head 85 ─ Ministry of Lands;

(b) Head 87 ─ Anti-Corruption Commission; and

(c) Head 89 ─ Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

The House will also deal with any other Business that may be outstanding.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Mr Speaker: Before we deal with the first Question on the Order Paper, and in case there are hon. Members who are in possession of the uncorrected Order Paper, there was a mistake on Question 179 on part (a), line 2. The word ‘Vandeta’ should read as ‘Vedanta’. Maybe some of you have the corrected version.

KONKOLA COPPER MINES PLC RECORDED TURNOVER

179. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how much total turnover was recorded by Konkola Copper Mines Plc from the time Vedanta Minerals took over ownership in December, 2007;

(b) how much was spent on salaries in the period above;

(c) how much was spent on the purchase of assets and re-investment during the period at (a) above; and

(d) how much was externalised in the same period.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, Konkola Copper Mines Plc recorded a total of US$3,049,280,000 in turnover from the time Vedanta Minerals took over ownership in November, 2004 and not in December, 2007. The figures are broken down as follows:

Year Amount (US$)

2005    249,010,000
2006       702,320,000
2007    1,017,210,000
2008    1,080,740,000
Total    3,049,280,000

As regards to part (b) of the question, US$459,730,000 was spent on salaries as follows:

Year Amount (US$)

2005   37,860,000
2006 108,040,000
2007 137,810,000
2008 176,020,000
Total 459,730,000

As regards part (c) of the question on the amount of money spent on assets and reinvestments, US$ 862,930 was spent on assets and reinvestments as follows:

Capital Expenditure 2005  2006  2007  2008  Total
US$  US$  US$  US$  US$

Sustaining Capex  25,140,000 56,310,000 101,800,000 133,580,000 316,830,000

Project Capex  Nil    7,390,000 165,810,000 372,960,000 546,160,000

Total   25,140,000 63,700,000 276,610,000 506,540,000 862,990,000

(d) Amount of money externalised

US$840,000 was externalised as follows:

Esternalisation  2005 2006  2007  2008  Total
   US$ US$  US$  US$  US$

Management fees Nil 1,000,000 1,000,000 1,000,000 3,000,000

Dividends  Nil Nil  2,920,000 2,920,000 5,840,000
Total   Nil 1,000,000 3,920,000 3,920,000 8,840,000

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister, it is clear that on salaries, Konkola Copper Mines Plc spent only about 14 per cent and on dividends 2 per cent. Therefore, what is Zambia benefiting from all these profits that Konkola Copper Mines Plc are making and when is it going to pay back the £78 million that the British Government gave Konkola Copper Mines Plc to sustain its operations when Anglo-American Corporation pulled out?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, even the blind can say I see and those who cannot hear would say I see.

Mr Speaker, those who have been to Konkola Copper Mines Plc have seen what is happening in terms of the Konkola Deep Mining project. That is where the funds have been spent on. As regards the £78 million that the hon. Member is referring to, could he submit a fresh question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this House that in 2005 and 2006, no dividends were declared to the Government. However, the hon. Minister will agree with me that in 2005 and 2006, profits were made. Would the hon. Minister inform this House about the golden share which the Government has and what benefits we got in the years mentioned above?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, as explained yesterday, the issue of the golden share refers to us as a Government playing a role in terms of consultation. As regards payment of dividends, it is done through our shareholding in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in relation to the overall turnover, the figure of US$459 million spent on salaries appears to be in the right ball park area. In view of the fact that one of the biggest questions on the mining industry is the amount of money spent on expatriates, is he able to spread this figures of US$459 million into local salaries and expatriate salaries?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would advise the hon. Member that I will try and get the information that he requires.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the company that we are discussing is the same company that poisoned the people of Chingola downstream in the Kafue River and was forgiven prosecution. It is the same company which is reported in the newspaper this morning as having shot and killed one illegal miner and wounded eleven others. Does the image of a toothless bulldog wagging its tail sometimes occur to …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! That phrase was ruled out of order in this House at the time it was made way back in the 1960s.

May you withdraw it, please.

Dr Scott: Sorry Sir, it has slipped my mind and memory. Does the Government not feel that this is a very unequal relationship especially when it looks itself in the mirror in the morning?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker that was expected from a swine farmer, however …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! That follow up question by the hon. Member for Lusaka Central had nothing to do with farming, swine or otherwise.

May you reply, please.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Much obliged Sir. As a Government, we have various institutions that monitor pollution on the mines. Those institutions are on the ground through the Environmental Council of Zambia and the Mines Safety Department in my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, from the figures given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, in 2008, the turnover was US$1,700,000 and the amount of money spent on wages was US$137,000 which is less than 10 per cent on wages. Does this not bother the Government that our people are being underpaid considering the income these people are getting from the mines?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, what the hon. Member should realise is that employees are represented by the unions who negotiate for salaries and he should be mindful that whenever an increment is awarded to employees, it is very difficult to lower that increment whenever there is a down turn in the prices of the commodity being sold.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, the debtor was said to have made about US$6 billion on the London Metal Exchange. I would like to find out what system exists to monitor the copper that is sold at the London Metal Exchange and the money made there because the US$8 million that has been declared is not correct.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. Member that he is part of this Government and whenever he has some information that he would like to pass on to relevant Government ministries or institutions, he is free to come forward so that a follow up can be made.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, what measures have been put in place to monitor the sales of copper as well as the concentrates because we must gain something from this?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, my ministry looks after the production side and we have the Ministry of Finance and National Planning which looks after the revenue that accrue to this Government. Therefore, that question should be directed to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. P. Chanda (Kankoyo): Sir, looking at the low levels of salaries being paid out by Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM), is it really prudent for the company to embark on reducing the labour force as a way of reducing overhead costs?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, when you do not have a good a price for a commodity, you look at where you have excess labour. That is where to touch first. Earlier, managements of our various mining companies were implored to firstly revisit the expected labour levels before touching the local labour levels.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, Garimpeurish is a Portuguese term that refers to small-scale miners dealing in diamonds such as the ones who were shot by KCM. Is it the duty of a mining company that has come to this country to mine and make profit not only to poison our people but also shoot and kill them when they are trying to carry out garimpeu? Is this a way of doing business in Zambia nowadays?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for bringing a new terminology, garimpeu, to the House.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: However, the hon. Member knows fully well that it is not a way of doing business. Human life is above everything else and this Government is very mindful of this.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

ELECTRIFICATION OF HEALTH INSTITUTIONS

180. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when the ministry would electrify the following institutions considering that the ZESCO power lines are close to them:

(i) Chijemu Health Post; and

(ii) Kapichila Health Centre; and

(b) when the ministry would provide funds for the construction of a health post at Kamilenje in Chief Mwase’s area in Lundazi District.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, the ministry has no plans at the moment to electrify the two centres by pulling power from the Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) lines. The ministry opted to connect the two centres to solar power which is cheaper.

Mr Speaker: Order in the House!

Mr Akakandelwa: Already, Chijemu Health Post has power while Kapichila Health Centre will be supplied with solar power in 2010. The ministry will consider recommending that the areas be considered for electrification under the Rural Electrification Programme.

As regards part (b) of the question, there are no immediate plans to build a health post at Kamilenje in 2009. There are health facilities at Mwase, Lundazi and Nyangwe were the community can access health services. The ministry’s policy is to ensure that there is a health facility at every five kilometre radius. As such, the area may be considered for a health facility in 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, bearing in mind that solar power was connected to these two institutions before electricity was pulled to Mwase Sub-centre, will this Government now take a fresh look at this issue by ensuring that the institution, which is less than hundred kilometres from the power line, is connected to the electricity grid in the next budget?

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, when funds are made available, all centres that are close to the national grid will be considered for electrification.

Thank you, Sir.

BUILDING OF HIGH SCHOOLS IN CONSTITUENCIES

181. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Education when the Government would build high schools in parliamentary constituencies that currently do not have any countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the ministry has prioritised the building of high schools in districts that do not have high schools. Districts with high school projects include Gwembe, Lufwanyama, Itezhi-tezhi, Chilubi, Kazungula, Lukulu, Mufumbwe, Masaiti, Mpulungu and Chavuma. The ministry has prioritised high school construction in constituencies according to the need and as identified by provincial education officers. Currently, a few high schools are under construction in some constituencies and these include Kafushi, Chitambo, Muyombe, Lupososhi, Rufunsa, Mwembeshi, Mayukwayukwa, Chisamba and Moomba. Other constituencies of need will be targeted as more funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education who, unfortunately, is not in the House had promised that a high school will be constructed in Luapula Constituency. I note from the answer that it is not among those that have been mentioned. What is the position on this? When is the ministry going to build a high school in Luapula Constituency?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, like I have already mentioned, the ministry will definitely construct a high school in Luapula Constituency as soon as money is made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, there are some schools in our constituencies that were built by the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA). Are there any plans by the ministry to build teachers’ houses where there is some space?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. Member, who is also my former student, that, …

Laughter

Mr Sinyinda: … unfortunately, there has been some resistance in her constituency. I hope she will convince the people there that we need to construct a high school. However, I would like to inform the House that building of infrastructure is an ongoing programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, is it possible for the ministry to consult the local people on the sites where the high schools are to be built to avoid the mistake they made in Katombola Constituency where the high school was built in the wrong place, altogether.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, that is exactly what we do. We consult the Provincial Education Officers (PEO) in conjunction with the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) and the communities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, in view of the decision by the ministry to scrap off the cut off point at grade nine, does the hon. Minister not  think that the issue of high schools is extremely urgent and that we cannot wait for the availability of funds?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, this Government is very serious about education. I am sure the hon. Member knows that currently, we are building forty-three high schools all over the country. Our target is to build eighty-eight high schools in the whole country by 2011.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, the non-availability of land was one of the reasons given by the ministry for not allocating high schools, particularly, in Lusaka. In Munali, we have since found some land. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether Munali can be considered as the owner of the land is ready to sell it to the Ministry of Education.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, as I have already stated, this is an ongoing programme and we will do just that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member for Mapatizya, the hon. Minister mentioned the number of high schools the ministry intends to build between now and 2011. Can we have an assurance that as a result of the removal of the cut off point at Grade 9, we shall not see an increase in the pupil-teacher ratio and also an increase in the classroom ratio in 2010, as a result of not having sufficient places in Grade 10?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I have already mentioned that the construction of infrastructure in high schools is an ongoing programme. We have also budgeted for the recruitment of 5000 teachers this year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education when the ministry will construct a high school in Luapula Constituency?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I have already answered that question. I stated that all the constituencies that do not have high schools will be given high schools as money is made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the ministry will construct a high school in Chief Na Bwalya this year as he stated on the Floor of this House last year?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I have already given an answer. The constituencies that do not have high schools will be considered as money is made available.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

BENEFICIARIES FROM THE FERTILISER SUPPORT PROGRAMME

182. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how many peasant farmers benefited from the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) during the 2008/2009 farming season countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Speaker, 200,000 small-scale peasant farmers benefited from the FSP countrywide during the 2008/2009 agricultural season. The FSP distributed 80,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser, i.e. 40,000 metric tonnes of D-Compound, 40,000 metric tonnes of urea and 4,000 metric tonnes of maize seed during the 2008/2009 agricultural season.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker pointed at Hon. Chota.

Mr Speaker: I beg your pardon. Hon. Member for Nangoma.

Mr Hamusonde: It is okay, Sir.

Mr Speaker: You are not interested?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Bweengwa.

Laughter

Hon. Members: It is okay!

Mr Speaker: That is unparliamentary. Okay is not used in this House.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there is a mechanism to follow up the number mentioned to prove that they are actual farmers and that they actually grew the maize?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, we have a mechanism where we request for returns from the District Agriculture Co-ordinating Officers (DACOS) on who the beneficiaries were. These returns which are compared with the actual allocation help to plan in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker pointed at Hon. Mwamba.

Hon. Member: Ukuchita ukuilanda ati Lukashya.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): He was pointing at me.

Mr Speaker, the Minister of agriculture is aware, from the research conducted, that the yields do not correspond with the fertiliser that is distributed. I would like to find out whether the monitoring mechanisms that he has talked about have been successful.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we are aware that the yields do not correspond with the inputs. It is for this reason that this year, we have undertaken to strengthen the weak linkage between productivity and skills and knowledge of the extension services. We strongly believe that when this is done, we will address this particular weakness in this chain.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the people of Luwingu, Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency, in particular, did not access fertiliser this year? Maybe it went to some ghost farmers.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I am not aware for the simple reason that according to our records, Luwingu District was allocated 264 metric tonnes of D-compound and top dressing. Therefore, until we have the returns on this, as far as we are concerned, the deliveries were made and all we have to do is ascertain who received the fertiliser and seed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives assuring this House and the nation that the Fertiliser Support Programme, which has lamentably failed, will not experience a similar event in the 2009/2010 farming season?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I categorically refuse to state that this programme has lamentably failed. I do not know what criterion he is using to assess that. I would like to indicate that the almighty God has been kind to us, this year because the rains have been very good and we will have a very good harvest. When we have that very good harvest, if it is a measure of failing lamentably, then we are not on the same wave length.

However, Sir, it is clear that there are challenges in our programme. As directed by His Excellency the President, we need to review and strengthen the Fertiliser Support Programme. This is exactly what we are doing to ensure that we target the beneficiaries properly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, during this farming season, only 272 bags of fertiliser were delivered to Chilubi District. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he has plans to increase the allocation during the coming years.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, our desire is to reach as many small-scale farmers as possible, but this is dependent upon the funds that are allocated to enable us purchase the fertiliser or farming inputs. When that is done, certainly, with the identification at the district level, we will be able to do that not only for Chilubi, but also for many areas where there is this complaint.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, the question of using District Agricultural Co-ordinating Officers in distributing fertiliser has proved a failure. Is the hon. Minister going to use other methods other than the DACOs?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we do not use DACOs for the distribution of fertiliser. At the district level, we have District Agricultural Committees (DACs) whose chairpersons are not and should not be staff of my ministry. It is this committee that consists of members from the co-operatives and farmers association that deal with the issues of identification and distribution. In fact, the District Co-operative Union is contracted in terms of transportation. Therefore, my staff, DACOs, only provide the secretariat.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what action the ministry has taken against the erring civil servants involved in the misappropriation of fertiliser in the districts across the country.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu that I have not seen a single field of maize in her constituency.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Chituwo: Sir, since every human being has to eat. The interest, therefore, is universal.

Mr Speaker, I came to this House with a ministerial statement and, in my ministerial statement, I indicated districts where malpractices were discovered. Some of the culprits are still under police custody while others are still under investigations and some were even imprisoned. Therefore, those are the measures we undertook in those cases that were reported to us. Cases of fraud and theft are dealt with by the relevant wing of the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, it is on record, by research and common knowledge, that fertiliser has spoilt certain soils because of the acidity. When is the Government going to consider including a packet of agricultural lime in a bag of fertiliser so that the soils remain neutral?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Itezhi-tezhi is correct and we are also aware of this. In fact, in our plans, it is an issue of just sensitising those would be suppliers of lime which actually neutralises the acidity of the soils. Studies were conducted a long time ago and there is a need for us, as a ministry, to procure mobile test kits to see ascertain the levels of acidity that has developed because of the repeated use of fertilisers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, to put a caveat to what I say, I appreciate that the hon. Minister will not find a farm in Kabwata, but certainly, he will find a lot of people who support small-scale farmers. This is why I would like to remind the hon. Minister that when the Fertiliser Support Programme started, it had two main objectives. The first one was to encourage food production and the other was to empower small-scale farmers so that, through Government support, they could build up their financial capacity to go into production without growing dependent on the Fertiliser Support Programme.

Now that we have been told that 200,000 farmers accessed the Fertiliser Support Programme last year, could the hon. Minister indicate how many farmers, ever since the programme started, have been weaned off and are cable of producing without any support from the Government.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I am very happy that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata has acknowledged the absence of this industry in his constituency.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Truly, at the inception of the Fertiliser Support Programme, the idea was for the beneficiaries to graduate to a higher level. In the review of this programme, we found that this is one of the weaknesses. Why is it that many farmers have not graduated to another level? One of the reasons for the review is that there is something wrong with the selection at the district level, because we need to reach as many as possible farmers as possible. In most times, it is the same people who continue to benefit from this programme. In the review that I will share with the House once Cabinet has okayed …

Mr Speaker: Order! That is unparliamentary.

Dr Chituwo: In the review that Government has sanctioned, we will indicate that. The majority of hon. Members of Parliament here are rural based. Therefore, it is in their interest to ensure that there is productivity in this area. I can assure them that the purpose for this review is basically to reduce the dependency perpetually on Government subsidies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, I am happy to learn that Cabinet is still considering the review of this programme. However, for purposes of future planning, some of us, once the House rises, will be going to our constituencies. Therefore, I would like to know what the projected number of farmers for this coming season is so that we can reassure those who did not get last year if there is an increment. I note that the figure has come down from K492 billion to K435 billion which is on Page 1095 of the Yellow Book. I wonder whether the programme is going to accommodate more or less farmers, in particular, we do not also know the fertiliser prices on the international market. Could we know if we will be supporting more or less farmers? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, truly, the prices of fertiliser fluctuate during the year. Even with K435 billion, if we place our orders early, we are likely to get more than what we would with even higher amounts if we placed our orders on the international market later in the year. We have started working in this direction already and it is not possible, therefore, for me to indicate how many farmers would benefit, but the indications are that more farmers will benefit this coming season than in the previous season.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, it is a known fact that year in and year out, there is late distribution of fertiliser. How soon is the Government going to start distributing fertiliser and seed for the 2009/2010 farming season throughout the country so that more peasant farmers can benefit.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, one of the key issues in this review is to address exactly that concern. Early delivery of fertiliser is important because it helps the farmer to plan how much land they wish to cultivate. Therefore, it will not be long before we put in place the measures of early procurement, identification of distributors and reasoning of the country. We believe this will help us to have fertiliser early. Our main objective is to have fertiliser available in the country throughout the year so that those who are able to use it can do so throughout the year without having to wait for the rainy season.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

WOMEN EMPLOYED AT MOPANI, KONKOLA AND KANTANSHI

183. Mr P. P. Chanda asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development how many women were employed in the following jobs at Mopani Copper Mines Plc, Konkola Copper Mines Plc and Kantanshi Mines Plc by 31st December, 2008.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, 243 women were employed by the companies listed in the question by 31st December, 2008 and they are as follows:

Category  Mopani  Konkola  Kansanshi Total
   Copper  Copper Mines Plc
   Mines Plc Mines Plc 

Shift Boss  Nil  Nil  Nil  Nil

Mine Captain  Nil  Nil  Nil  Nil

Heavy Duty  
Drivers  Nil    33  14    47

Artisan  28  107    5  140

Engineers    2    54  Nil   56

Total   30  194  19  243

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr P. P. Chanda: Mr Speaker, indeed, there are no numbers on the Shift Boss and Mine Captain levels. What is the ministry doing to revamp the Staff Learner Scheme to encourage women to take up such jobs?

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kankoyo for his interest in seeing women move into this field. However, what the hon. Member should appreciate is that a step has been made in that in the artisan, engineering and also heavy duty driver’s field, we have women. Issues of job preferences are left to individuals themselves, but I am sure the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development will be ensuring that women are encouraged to take up jobs such as these.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development aware that the law in this country, which has not yet been amended, does not allow women to work in underground mines. Is he aware that this is the reason there are no women engaged in some of these positions?

Mr Speaker: Is the hon. Member for Monze able to cite that law and the section to help the hon. Minister answer?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, at the moment I cannot. However, considering that he is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, he is supposed to know the laws pertaining to mining operations.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, considering the fact that we have women engineers and artisans, some of who could be working underground, I would like to confirm that the law was amended in this House.

I thank you, sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, it is a known fact that heavy duty female drivers, in many instances, outperform their male counterparts in terms of production, discipline and non-absenteeism.

Mr Speaker, through you, could the hon. Minister tell us why there has not been enough encouragement to have more heavy duty female drivers like in America, which has many of them. This is a proven fact. Why is the hon. Minister not encouraging more women to join this field?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am sure that the hon. Member knows fully well that issues of employment have personal preferences. The point that should be acknowledged by all is that efforts are being made and we now have women in that category. Even the recently opened Lumwana Mine has women who operate heavy machinery.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, is it possible for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to sensitise pupils, especially girls, so that when they complete Grade 12, they join the mines.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, at the time I went to school, there were careers masters in schools. I hope that they are still there to encourage our girl children to take up such professions.

I thank you, sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, going by the hon. Minister’s response, it is a fact that there are female miners working underground among the categories of jobs listed. Can the hon. Minister assure this House and the nation that convenient facilities, particularly for women, are available in the underground working environment so that they do not use the same facilities with men and also that women are assured of protection given that the environment is worse than the darkest night. Do they have the assurance that they will not be abused somehow?

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member who raised that follow-up question used to be a miner. I wonder whether he would have the energy to abuse any woman underground.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the laws governing work places underground are very categorical. It is a serious offence to find anyone abusing another person underground.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank His Honour, the Vice-President for availing us this opportunity.

Mr Speaker, in all Government statistics, the Western Province ranks the worst in terms of poverty and under-development. Could His Honour the Vice-President, therefore, tell this House and the nation why the measures introduced by his administration to combat under-development and poverty, such as tourism infrastructure, the establishment of Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs) and cash transfers have not been extended to the Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Furthermore, could he tell us why measures that would alleviate poverty such as the Fertiliser Support Programme have the least amount allocated to the Western Province.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the policy of this Government is to develop all areas equitably. Of course, if areas are lacking in terms of development, we have to pay attention to such areas. In the coming years, as a Government, we have to address such inequities. As a Member of Parliament from the Western Province, the hon. Member has seen how we allocate resources in the National Budget. He talked about MFEZs and tourist resorts. Indeed, it is the policy of this Government to diversify the economy. If the Western Province could benefit from tourism infrastructure then such developments should be extended to the province.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member alleged that there is inequity in the distribution of fertiliser. The distribution of fertiliser depends on the number of farmers and co-operatives. If there is inequity proven, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and my office are there to look into such issues. Let us know where we are going wrong. We are a listening Government …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and we will address such imbalances.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, in the course of last week, we were told that the Tanzania Zambia Railways (TAZARA) had a debt of US$720 million. Last year, TAZARA gave a discount for the transportation of fertiliser to a particular company and it was suggested that they ferry the fertiliser at US$37 per tonne instead of the cargo rate of US$197 per tonne. However, later on, they were given a discount for the fertiliser to be ferried at US$100 per tonne. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether this was a political or economic decision, considering that TAZARA has this debt.

In the same vein, and taking advantage of this question, can His Honour, the Vice-President tell the House when he will bring the TAZARA audit report, which shows that TAZARA bought eighteen buses and after two months, they went missing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Ulula!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, TAZARA has a management which deals with issues of that nature and in making decisions on whether to give discounts or not, the management takes into account various factors. I am not privy to the information, factors or criteria used in giving that kind of discount, but in the absence of any allegation of proprietary, we give the management the benefit of the doubt, as they were performing duties within their mandate. I believe that is all I can say about that issue. It was a management decision.

 I thank you Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Second part of the question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I did not get that part of the question.

 Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, one thing we both share with the Vice-President is the realisation that unless each Zambian puts in a full day’s work, the Zambian economy will not recover or improve. Therefore, the value of the Kwacha will not appreciate. Would His Honour the Vice-President care to tell this House and the nation at large how he intends to make sure that the Civil Service gives a fair day’s work because at the moment, they are not performing.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is a very important question. The Civil Service must apply itself fully to providing a service to the people of Zambia. I remember we were discussing a question of discipline in the Civil Service and we talked about the need to review the conditions of service, regulations relating to discipline and the need for us to mete out discipline swiftly where it is required so that people can attend to their day to day duties in accordance with Government regulations. Therefore, it is the intention of Government to look into this issue and make sure that the Public Service performs, that there is discipline and that people report for work on time and even put in extra work. That is why we also review issues of conditions of service on a yearly basis. There are negotiations for conditions of service so that we can motivate the Civil Service as well. Therefore, this is a broad issue which we shall look into.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, on 16th January, 2009, the Government assured the nation that it would ensure that jobs in the mines were protected. Since then, more than a 1,000 jobs have been lost in the mines. What has happened to that assurance?

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is an important question and gives me an opportunity to brief this august House and the nation on the problem we are faced with, the global financial crisis.

Mr Kambwili: Awe!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, it is not only Zambia that is experiencing these problems.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Those who are honest will appreciate that even prices of commodities such as diamonds have gone down. Botswana is facing the same problem. Mines and factories are closing all over the world and people are losing jobs in the motor car industry. The impact of the global financial crisis varies from county to country and Zambia is no exception. I agree that some people have lost jobs in the mining industry and the cause of this is well known. It is the low copper prices. The price of copper had risen up to US $8,000 per tonne, but we are now talking about US $3,600 per tonne. Therefore, there has been a major shift in respect of the price of copper. However, as a Government, we are not just sitting idly.

Sir, some of the investors have shown interest in investing in the mining sector. For example, we have some investors who have shown an interest in the Luanshya Copper Mine. We are also looking into these issues. Of course, some political parties and Zambians are against certain investors who would like to work in Zambia, namely the Chinese, but at the same time, they are demanding that we should have jobs created. Therefore, one wonders whether they are serious or not.

Mr Speaker, we are looking at ways and means of addressing this particular problem so that investors can still come to our country. We have to make the investment environment conducive for investors to come in and create more jobs.

 Hon, Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we are creating MFEZs. There was a statement in the President’s Speech to the effect that at least 10,000 jobs would be created. Therefore, we are concerned about matters of job creation.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President the morality of having the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport continue to sit in her office when she is being investigated for alleged abuse of office.

Mr Speaker: Order! I rule the whole of that question out of order. It is sub judice.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, Albidon Mine has placed the mine under care and maintenance and they are stopping the social responsibility to the people that were displaced at Nega Nega Farm. Would the Government take care of that responsibility of taking care of the people who were displaced by Albidon Mine?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we are discussing with the management of that company and one of the financiers of the company will come to look into that problem. Therefore, it is a matter which is under active consideration.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President about an issue that has embarrassed this nation. Recently, a boxer was supposed to have fought in England, but was disqualified on the basis of being unfit, and yet this boxer was declared fit by the Zambian doctors. That hinges on the efficacy of the medical profession here in Zambia. Could the Vice-President indicate …

Mr Lubinda: What happened.

Mr Mwenya: … what happened …

Mr Lubinda: And clarify the matter.

Mr Mwenya: … and clarify the matter, especially that …

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: … the profession of Zambian trained doctors’ is now …

Mr Lubinda: Under question.

Mr Mwenya: … under question.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I am not a medical doctor.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Even if I had the details of that particular matter, I would have had to refer it to competent authorities and doctors to look into. Unfortunately, I do not have the details. However, we have a Medical Council in this country which is a disciplinary authority where the hon. Member can go to. If you have details of any impropriety and malpractice, please, as a Member of Parliament, take all the details to the Medical Council of Zambia so that we do not encourage any malpractice, if at all there was any.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I have a very simple question for His Honour the Vice-President.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: I would like to find out what disciplinary action was taken against the headteacher in the Eastern Province who denied two disabled children school places.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I do not have details on that particular issue. However, the hon. Minister of Education is here and will look into it and ensure that it is sorted out, if at all it has not been sorted out. Of course, that is an important issue.

Professor Lungwangwa: It has already been sorted out.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I am told that it has been sorted out. Nevertheless, if it has not been sorted out, the hon. Minister of Education is there to assist.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, there has been press reports that the Government of the Republic of Zambia and the Katanga Governor, Mr Moses Katumbi, have reached an agreement concerning the stolen money and the Government has not informed this House about this.

Sir, it is on record that this Government told this nation that Mr Katumbi stole money from the Government. I would like to know the position of this Government.

Mr Lubinda: Ask VJ!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, if I am not mistaken, the hon. Member has asked the same question in this august House before.

However, on the issue he has raised, I would like to inform him that a settlement was reached through the Attorney-General’s Office. The idea behind that settlement was for the Zambian Government to recover the money.

Mr C. Mulenga: Stolen!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Yes, but we do not use that kind of terminology here.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Where Government has suffered a loss, we can recover the money. What is important for us is to recover the money. This is standard practice even in other countries. We should pursue the prosecution route all the time. Where we can recover money, let us do so. That was the policy behind that particular settlement.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is a settlement in which the Government has benefited. We have settled that issue amicably.

However, there is the question of the greater interest of diplomatic relations between Zambia and our neighbours with whom we interact. We have common borders, issues of security and issues of national interest. All these were taken into account. Therefore, we are a responsible Government which has looked at the interest of this country in making such settlements.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, last week, the gallant and responsible Catholic Church issued a pastoral letter …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … pertaining to the policy of the Government involving the abolition of the cut off point at Grade 9. Having noted that the Catholic Church is a major player in the provision of educational services in this country, they have questioned the policy of the Government. What is the position of the Government pertaining to the abolition of the cut-off point and considering that a number of pupils who are supposed to have qualified to Grade 10 cannot access school places as a result of that policy?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, thank you for asking that question. I am a Catholic myself, but I do not agree with some of the pastoral letters issued by the Catholic Church.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: They are made from an uninformed position and sometimes, unfortunately, a suppression of facts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, this responsible Government …

Mr Sichamba: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … contributes to the education which is provided in the name of the Catholic Church.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We provide 70 per cent of the money which the Catholic Church claims it uses to provide education.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Awe!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore, it is actually the Government which provides that particular education. Those are grant headed institutions and they fall in that category.

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is very negative in many respects. For example, with regard to issues to do with the National Constitutional Conference (NCC), …

Mr Kambwili: Ba Kunda, mwapontela Pope!

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … they can, if they wish, contribute from outside.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mwapontela Papa!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: As for the issue of the cut-off point for schools, the aim of this Government is to ensure that as many pupils as possible proceed to Grade 10.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We are putting in place measures to ensure that we recruit more teachers and build more infrastructure …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: …and this has been explained by the hon. Minister of Education.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that some of the pastoral letters which are issued by the Catholic Bishops and some of the things said by the Catholic Church bishops coincide with some of the opposition political parties’ positions.

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Ni Shikapwasha wa lembele!

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Ulekwata umuchinshi iwe!

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: There are permanent alliances with some of the political parties, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … whereby whatever they say is supposed to coincide or parrot what some opposition political parties are saying.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is unfortunate, Mr Speaker. We respect the Catholic Church, but it should be non-partisan.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: There are a lot of Catholics in this House even on the Government side who are Ministers and the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is also a Catholic.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore, Mr Speaker, the Church must ensure that whatever it does is just. We must have justice in this country. The Church should provide leadership and make sure that whenever we have conflicts, they mediate. Now if churches take positions, where can we go if we have conflicts in this country?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In other countries, bishops have resolved disputes and brought peace in those countries, but where bishops take sides, they can destroy a country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, lately the Government has been giving loans to chiefs in this country. I would like to know from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice how far this programme has gone, how it has worked and how the chiefs have received it.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker that is a very good question.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This Government shall continue to look after its traditional leaders.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we cherish our traditional leaders and in doing so, we have given them transport and those who have not yet got their vehicles will get them in due course.

Mr Speaker, this Government shall continue to respect chiefs and we shall not make derogatory remarks against them. They are our traditional leaders. Those who are indigenous to Zambia need to respect our chiefs and Hon. Chizhyuka will agree with me on this.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, lately we have experienced a lot of fatal accidents in the Chisamba area going to Kabwe. Mr Speaker, two months ago thirteen people died in a mini bus accident and two days two chiefs, Luchembe and Kopa were involved in an accident, again, within the Chisamba area. This is as a result of the congestion along this road. Is the Government considering expanding this road to a dual carriage way to avoid accidents?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, in the long term, it would be better if we had a dual carriage way although, of course, we have limited resources. It is also important for us to focus on traffic control so that we can reduce fatal accidents. It is an important reminder to us that we should plan for these things and look into ways and means of eliminating accidents.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when the construction of the Lusaka General Hospital at Chainama will commence.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the construction of the Lusaka General Hospital will commence this year.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I must emphasise that this is a Government assurance.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the chair]

VOTE 46/01 – (Ministry of Health – K1,804,792,357,570).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Chairperson, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was advancing a point on non communicable diseases.

Mr Chairperson, non communicable diseases have now been recognised as one of the number one killer diseases in most of the countries, including Zambia. We will also put in place concerted efforts in the delivery of interventions to reduce non-communicable diseases (NCDs) which have been on the increase in the past few years.

Mr Chairperson, to strengthen human resource management, in 2009, we will complete the restructuring process for hospitals and districts. Improving the staff welfare through constructing reasonable housing in the urban and rural areas will be given prominence. To that effect, staff accommodation will be constructed at UTH, Ndola Central Hospital, Arthur Davison Hospital, Kitwe and all provincial hospitals.

In addition, staff accommodation will be constructed at Solwezi, Mansa and Chipata General Hospitals.

 The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

The Executive on my right, please, can you listen. The hon. Minister is making a policy statement and you are consulting loudly.

Continue, please, hon. Minister.

 Mr Simbao: Corresponding activities will include putting staff on the payroll, implementation of an annual performance appraisal system (APAS) and strengthening the collection and use of human resources information. Recruitment, retention and re-distribution of health workers to disadvantaged districts will also be among the priority interventions for 2009.

Mr Chairperson, on strengthening drug management and logistics, we have noted that while drug supply has improved at the national level, this is not the case at the district level. Thus, in 2009, emphasis will be on strengthening the drug supply management and logistics at the district level, especially in the area of commodity planning.

Mr Chairperson, on social health insurance, as alluded to earlier, analysis of our resource needs against the available resource envelope for the remaining years of our National Health Strategic Plan indicates a financing gap of US$756 million. In order to reduce this gap, the Ministry of health will introduce systems and strategies to raise additional revenue. One such strategy is social health insurance (SHI). In 2009, we will go into the actual design of the scheme, taking into consideration the legislative and institutional framework.

Infrastructure Development and Provision of Medical Equipment

Mr Speaker, our policy is that the average distance between any community and the nearest health facility should be 5 km …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: … while every district should have a district hospital.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: It is also our priority to replace obsolete equipment in all health facilities. In 2009, we shall embark on the construction …

Hon. Kambwili interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, please, order.

Hon. Government Member: Send him out.

Can you continue, please, hon. Minister?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, it is very frustrating that I speak loudly for people to hear, but they do not want to listen.

… of three new district hospitals in Nakonde, Choma and Serenje.

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: This will leave Mwense, Milenge, Kazungula and Mambwe as districts without hospitals. In addition, thirty-nine health posts will be constructed and completed this year, while 110 health centres will be rehabilitated or expanded.

We shall further continue with the strengthening of our tertiary and second level hospitals through the procurement of modern diagnostic and therapeutic equipment. In this regard, an MRI and CT scan will be procured for the Cancer Diseases Hospital, UTH and Ndola Central Hospital. Theatre, intensive care unit (ICU) and laundry equipment will be procured for all tertiary and provincial hospitals countrywide.

Mr Speaker, I would like to make it clear that the construction of the Chainama General Hospital is on going and it will start from the ground this year.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Decongesting University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and Ndola Central Hospital

UTH and Ndola Central Hospital are congested with patience who require first level care. This is due to lack of first level hospitals in Lusaka and Ndola districts. In our efforts to decongest our two tertiary hospitals, in 2009, the Ministry of Health will upgrade to first level hospital and construct operating theatres in the following Lusaka urban clinics: Kanyama, Chawama, Chilenje and Matero. If we are going to have some extra money, we will consider upgrading Chipata too.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We will upgrade and build an operating theatre at Lubuto Urban Clinic in Ndola.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Conclusion

Mr Speaker, investing in primary health care as a strategy to attain our health vision will continue to be emphasised. In addition, efforts will be made to ensure that investment is strengthened in improving the welfare of our staff to ensure that all Zambian citizens are accorded quality health care as close to the family as possible.

I also wish to emphasise the importance of the key determinants of health, namely good nutrition, safe water and sanitation, better housing and improved literacy. These determinants of health need collaborative efforts to be addressed. Other ministries have a key role to play in ensuring that we improve the health status of our communities by improving the key determinants of health.

The Ministry of Health will, through a multi-sectoral approach to service delivery, endeavour to work very closely with other ministries, especially at the district level, to ensure that through our concerted efforts, we all work towards improving the health status of our people

Mr Speaker, allow me to convey …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Mr Chairperson.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, allow me to convey our Government’s appreciation for the tremendous and sustained support that the Ministry of Health has continued to receive towards implementing our National Health Strategy Plan. With the support from our partners, we have jointly scored a lot of success amidst a myriad of challenges.

In this regard, I wish to thank our bilateral and multilateral partners for their huge financial, technical and material support. I would also like to mention in particular United States Agency for International Development (USAID), who are fully committed to the anti-retroviral therapy (ART) programme and have through …

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 until 1100 hours.

[Mr Deputy Chairperson in the Chair]

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I had just started thanking USAID who are fully committed to the ART Programme in this country and through Centre for Infectious Disease Research in Zambia (CIDRZ) have established a spider web network reaching the hard to reach areas with a centre at Kalingalinga, where they have established a state-of-the-art laboratory equal to any of its modern equivalent in the world. Also, I want to thank Global Fund, who have poured their money and hearts into this country. Global Fund have been a sympathetic partner and are fully committed to help Zambia to recover from its disease burden. Others are the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA), the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to mention but a few.

Mr Chairperson, in a true spirit of partnership, I invite all Zambians, including non-governmental organisations, political parties, the Church, co-operating partners and other stakeholders to continue contributing to the search for appropriate solutions to the improvement of our health.

Mr Chairperson, we all can play a role in improving the health status of Zambia. It should be noted that health is life and a source of wealth. Unless, we invest in health, economic empowerment might not be achieved.

I now wish to ask this House to support the 2009 budget for the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me this chance to debate this Vote. Today, I have no kind words for the Ministry of Health.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: This is one of the ministries in which the Government has invested a lot of resources and I am happy that the hon. Minister of Health has also acknowledged the fact that the ministry also receives colossal sums of money from external sources.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: However, comparing the investment in the Ministry of Health and the results, one would wonder whether he has capable managers in his ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Time has come, hon. Minister, through the President of this country, to reorganise the Ministry of Health. If you take the system as it is performing, I am afraid to make you understand that there are so many failures which have been recorded by your ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You have to do something about this. Do not accept any information that you are going to receive on face value. You compare with the level of investment. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, year in and year out, apportions a lot of money to the ministry …

Mr Mukanga: Yes.

Mr Kasongo: … so that it can put its mission statement into practice but it has failed lamentably. For example, in all the reports that are tabled in this House by the Public Accounts Committee, the Ministry of Health is one of the targets. The Government must do something about this. Changes that are made on the basis of transferring individuals from one ministry to the other are not going to salvage this ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kasongo: That is merely transferring problems from one ministry to another.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: What is required is to radically change the Ministry of Health. A lot of people are suffering in the rural areas. Even in Lusaka, patients have to clap their hands in order to get medical attention, but it has not been forth coming because there is no medicine and equipment in our clinics and hospitals. Can the Ministry of Health justify that in line with the colossal sums of money that is given by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning? I do not think so. Why should there be only two theatres be operating at the University Teaching Hospital and others have been closed because there is no equipment, and yet the Yellow Book shows that we give this ministry colossal sums of money? There is no accountability in the Ministry of Health and, therefore, heads must roll.

Mr Chanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I would like to appeal to one of the most hardworking Vice-Presidents that this country has ever had and learned Minister of Justice …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … to assist the hon. Minister of Health reorganise this ministry. I can assure the Government that the hon. Minister of Health will not make any impact on his own and I am speaking with authority.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Sir, we do not have to go too far to know the programme of work for the ministry (holding up a document).

Mr D. Mwila: Total failure.

Mr Kasongo: If you asked me what has been implemented in this document, I will say nothing.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That is the kind of behaviour I do not like. You see, you have indicated that you want to speak, but then you are disturbing the hon. Member on the Floor. Why can you not speak when it is your turn?

The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr Kasongo: We are lucky that this document, the 2008 Infrastructure Operational Plan, was made available to all of us and this made it easy for some of us to find out what was supposed to happen on the ground.

Mr Chairperson, I have interacted with my colleagues from other provinces and they have also indicated that in fact, all the projects that have been tabulated in this document have not been implemented in spite of the fact that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning was kind enough to have released all the funds early last year. Therefore, what are the hon. Members on your right talking about when they say that they have done extremely well? They have not done anything.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: This document speaks volumes of the failures of this ministry and we are not going to accept that kind of shoddy performance.

Mr Chanda: Get annoyed.

Mr Kasongo: How can the hon. Government Members even praise themselves when they have recorded more failures than successes?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interjections

Mr Kasongo: Sir, there is also a very attractive programme in this same document on taking solar power to every rural health centre. All the details are in here. Despite funds having been released early last year by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, any hon. Member of Parliament here can confirm that not a single rural health centre has received a solar panel.

Mr Sichilima: Question!

Mr Kasongo: Only last month did the ministry find it fit to advertise for bids for this activity. This is unjustifiable and therefore, hon. Government Members cannot claim to be doing extremely well.

Major Chizhyuka:: There is a need for a commission of inquiry.

Mr Kasongo: There is no commitment on the part of the ministry to translate its vision into practice. This ministry has failed. If I were Minister of Finance and National Planning, I would curtail future funds to the Ministry of Health until officers in this ministry pull up their socks.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Money is just going to waste as if it is being thrown into the waters of Lake Bangweulu. There is no accountability in this ministry.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice should take a keen interest in what is happening in this ministry. Otherwise, the Government is going to regret when other people begin flashing confidential documents in the press.

I have taken oath and that is why sometimes my debates are limited because I would not want to depart from what I have sworn to protect. However, when I hear of things such as lack of transparency, I have no kind words for any manager regardless of his or her level and I have no apology to make because I represent the people of Bangweulu Constituency.

Major Chizhyuka: Commission of inquiry.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kasongo: Firstly, this ministry has to be audited to find out what is happening. I am aware that there is this culture of saying that a person who is connected to State House becomes untouchable. That is irrelevant. First and foremost, all Zambians, regardless of their position in society are accountable to the people of Zambia. Any other relationship is secondary, as people come and go.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Sir, as I have said, there is no justification for failure to procure solar panels for our rural health centres because the money was released in good time. The ministry found it fit to keep the money for almost a year and only started running adverts in February this year.

Mrs Phiri: Interest.

Mr Kasongo:  All the rural health centres could have benefited a lot if this project was implemented. Our hardworking nurses are forced to use candles at night to attend to patients and the Government is saying that it has done extremely well. Our hardworking doctors are forced to use whatever lights they can think of. I do not know whether or not they use what is called koloboyi.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Doctors and nurses struggle to attend to patients at night because somebody has decided to keep public funds in a bank account in order to accrue interest and only releases it after one year. What has happened to the money?

Hon. PF Members: And interest.

Mr Kasongo: Yes, and the interest it has accrued. Somebody has to be accountable for this.

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: That is why I said I have no kind words for this ministry. The Government has not met the expectations of Zambians, not even in a small way. Therefore, the entire Government system must come to the rescue of the current hon. Minister of Health. The structure of this ministry is so powerful that for the current hon. Minister of Health to penetrate and make an impact, he must have the backing of someone who can move in with force.

Major Chizhyuka: The Vice-President and Minister of Justice.

Mr Kasongo: That is true and I know what I am talking about.

Sir, another area of interest is how much money has been spent on the so-called organisations which have been created with the view to addressing the impact of HIV/AIDS. I wonder if the ministry even monitors these same organisations. Today, any organisation can spring up and claim to be able to contain HIV/AIDS in Mazabuka, Choma and so on and so forth and the Government remits a lot of money to it, but there is no accountability and monitoring. The Government has to follow up these programmes.

 

I would like to end by emphasising the point that I have recorded through you, Sir and my earnest appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to move in very quickly in the Ministry of Health. Otherwise, it will be too late for you to take action when the chips are down.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate. I stand to support the Vote on the Floor.

Firstly, I would like to thank the President for adding to the number of women in decision-making positions. I am sure Mrs Musokotwane will be very happy to see that another female Permanent Secretary has been added to the list of women in decision-making positions. This clearly indicates that we are getting nearer to the SADC protocols.

Mrs Musokotwane: Are you sure?

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, although there could be some failures in other areas in the Ministry of Health, I would like to congratulate them on constructing a District Hospital in Kaputa which will be completed this year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairman, I am saying this because some hon. Members have never visited the rural constituencies to see the problems people are facing. Mwense, in comparison with Kaputa, is better placed because it can be easily reached either from Kashikishi or Mansa. Kaputa, on the other hand, is at the tail of the Northern Province and the road network has not been good lately.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order, but is this hon. Member debating so poorly in order to state that Mwense is better placed when we have faced a lot of problems taking into consideration the district is the second densely populated rural area in Zambia, and yet we do not have a hospital. People are dying and the ministry cannot do anything about it.

Is he in order to debate in this manner?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Since the hon. Member raising a point of order has adequately debated his point of order, Mr Sikazwe should move on to another point.

May you continue, please?

Mr Sikazwe: I thank you for you good guidance, Mr Chairperson. I was saying that the people of Kaputa District are thankful for the hospital being built in the district. We should give merit where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairman, one hon. Member of Parliament confronted me, and yet he comes from that particular area and he knows the problems we are facing in that area. He is overlooking the fact that I have also been facing the same problems.

Mr Chairperson, I further wish to thank the Ministry of Health for reducing the distance to health facilities by constructing the Kakoma Health Post which is almost complete. A doctor has been posted to Kaputa reducing the distance people have to cover to access medical facilities in Mporokoso and Nchelenge. We have been experiencing a lot of deaths due to the long distances to health centres. With the presence of a doctor in the district, the distances will be reduced as most of the patients will be attended to by the resident doctor. So, why can we not thank the Government for that?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: In addition, the Ministry of Health has bought a lot of vehicles for various health institutions, but in Kaputa the vehicles could not last long due to long distances they had to cover. With a resident doctor, the logistics will improve, fuel consumption will be low and health delivery will be realised in totality.

Mr Chairperson, Kaputa is not just land. Since the hon. Minister of Health comes from the Lake Tanganyika area, I hope he will provide us with water ambulances which his predecessor proposed for our district. I know that his Permanent Secretary has moved extensively in this country and I believe he has been to Kaputa. Water ambulances are for those of us who live near the lakes, and I must emphasise that there must be an ambulance on the water.

Hon. PF Member: Ambulance yaku ng’anda.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson: …

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): On a point of order!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. It is not my intention to disturb my colleague who is debating passionately to try and appease the Appointing Authority that maybe hoping that maybe …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, several years ago, the MMD Government was criticised when one of their ministers suggested that the Zambia Police Service be permitted to shoot and kill criminals. In Zambia, we have laws that govern the running of this country. We also have courts and prisons. We are aware that we have hard core criminals who have been imprisoned. Some of them have been sentenced to death. We are also aware that during the Chiluba regime, the two terms that he ruled this country, no single prisoner who was sentenced to death was executed. Even in the two terms of the late President …

The Deputy Chairperson: Your point of order really amounts to debating, what is your point of order?

Mr Mwenya: My point of order is that, in today’s Times of Zambia and I wish to quote:

“Illegal miner slain and twelve wounded. One person was shot dead while twelve others were wounded when Konkola Copper Mine security officers opened fire at illegal miners in Chingola.”

Mr Chairman, this is not the first time we have heard of illegal miners being shot by security officers from KCM. It happened last year and it has happened before. In Kankoyo it happened this year, again. Is it in order for the Leader of Government Business in the House, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to remain quiet when lives are being lost? The mining companies in this country are creating militia men to eradicate our people knowing very well that the majority of these people are entering these dump sites simply because most of them have been laid off because of the mass job losses in the mines and they need to make a living.

I need your serious ruling on this, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me seize the opportunity in view of that point of order to remind the House that points of order should relate to procedure, decorum and should be relevant to the subject being discussed and that point order definitely does not fall in any one of the three categories. However, if it is a question of national importance, I think these things in his quotation have been happening most of the time. I want to believe that particular matter must have been reported to the relevant authorities and so we proceed.

You may continue, please.

Hon. Members: Seminar.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your usual wisdom and guidance.

Mr Chairperson, as responsible leaders, we must show some appreciation whenever someone is doing the right thing and thank him or her for it.

Ms V. Tembo crossed the Floor.

Hon. Member: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Well, I suppose we all make mistakes. We can live with this.

The hon. Member for Chimbamilonga can continue, please.

Mr Sikazwe: Thank you, Sir. This is a day of interruptions, Mr Chairperson. We must appreciate what is good. When you talk about godliness, you could be accused of doing the wrong thing by fellow Christians you must accept that you are wrong. When one is doing the right thing, he or she must be praised for that. Equally, the Government should be praised for doing the right thing, and there should be positive criticism when things are not going well. It does not mean that when I stand to debate, I am trying to be an opportunist, but to be a leader and advisor to both sides.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, vehicles were bought for rural health centres, but for those of us from Siavonga, Mongu, Mpulungu and other places where there are lakes and rivers we need water type of ambulances. That is a way forward towards the delivery of quality health services to the people who live in areas that cannot easily be accessed by vehicles. I am sure the Ministry of Health bought some water type of ambulances some time back, but we need more so that every area which is surrounded by water can be accessed.

Let me now talk about the electrification of clinics. The ministry has been distributing solar panels, but the communication equipment is attached to this, creating a heavy load on the solar panels and may wear them out in no time.

Most of our rural clinics do not have equipment. The limited equipment they have is not in a good condition. The ministry must provide them with better equipment. In terms of communication equipment, these clinics need radio phones instead of cell phones which are expensive to maintain. Even the UTH has a system they use to communicate besides cell phones. We need that type of communication system for rural health centres as well. The Ministry of Education has bought good communication equipment for their offices in my area. Equally, your ministry must buy new communication equipment like that used by the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. They have very powerful communication equipment.

The other issue, Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about is that as the ministry is expanding clinics in urban areas and giving them CD4 count machines, they should also consider those in rural areas. The population in rural areas is increasing and the HIV/AIDS infection rate is also going up. People in rural areas are also affected with HIV/AIDS and so they should access CD4 count machines in the clinics that are closest to them. We need all the clinics to be equipped with the machines for testing and diagonising HIV/AIDS. Once this is done, the administration of ARVs will be done properly because diseases will be detected at an early stage.

In most rural areas, people think they have strange diseases when they in fact have symptoms of HIV/AIDS. Whenever a person in a rural area suffers from prolonged coughing, they go to a traditional healer who gives them traditional medicine when, in fact, they have symptoms of tuberculosis which can be treated with conventional medicine. Apart from equipment, the ministry needs to send more medical personnel to rural health centres. The ministry needs to work closely with us to realise its goal of providing quality health services to all Zambians. Therefore, these projects should be completed timely.

Hon. Minister, you used to travel …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, when Hon. Simbao was in charge of the Ministry of Works and Supply, he travelled all over the country inspecting the work that was being carried out on the roads. Now, I would like him to travel all over the country to inspect the maintenance works that are being carried out in the health centres. He needs to instruct those contractors to work faster because they are delaying work. As a result, people are complaining that the Government is not doing anything to bring about development in their areas, thus making the Government very unpopular.  Such complaints are now common even in constituencies that are under Members of Parliament from the MMD. People in these constituencies claim that the Government is not doing anything to develop their constituencies because the development projects in their areas are not finishing on time.

Mr Chairperson, officials from different ministries should visit rural areas regularly so that they can see for themselves what is happening on the ground. The ministry has a lot of directors who have never visited districts to see what their subordinates at the district level are doing. Even in the provinces, the ministry just gets information from the Provincial Health Director instead of making actual site visits.

I would like to appeal to the Government to encourage officials in the different ministries to be mobile. If people move and see what is happening on the ground, they will be better placed to bring development to the rural areas.

Thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. I am looking at the timer and I am hoping that I can be upstanding for five minutes, if not less.

With the kind of debate that has been brought on the Floor of this House by Hon. Kasongo …

The Deputy Chairperson: (Inaudible)

Major Chizhyuka: … I can only stand to buttress. I would like to take his debate as my own and emphasise that the Ministry of Health, like the Ministry of Education, has received, by far, the largest share of the tax-payers’ money in this country. I would have thought that given those huge amounts, the Ministry of Health would have taken a leaf from the Ministry of Education. Those amounts of money are large. They are probably larger than that for any corporate body in the entire land, and yet it is quite clear that the mismanagement of public funds is rampant.

I just want to buttress one point. Last year, one of the parliamentary committees was on tour and I happened to be on this committee. As we were passing through Kaoma, one child on a bicycle emerged from the tall grass into the road. Fortunately, the driver of the vehicle we were on was steady because he could have killed that boy. However, he was badly injured. I had to take the responsibility, as Chairman of the Committee, to drive him another seventy kilometres back to Kaoma in the evening.

For the boy not to lose his life, he had to be sutured. I want to report to you, Mr Chairman, that he was sutured without any sedation under candle light. Inkandela in Ila.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: This ministry has been given the second highest amount of money in the Budget of this republic, and yet here we were as Parliamentarians in the 21st Century taking a boy for suturing under candle light. Credit goes to the nurses and the doctors at Kaoma Hospital for doing a perfect job under candle light when the ministry was banking its money to earn interest, and then advertise the contract for the installation of solar panels towards the end of the year, after having stashed away the huge interest earned on the money.

Mr Chairperson, I have said that the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is the only hope. We need a commission of inquiry. This is why we indicated that we needed more money for the Office of the Auditor-General (OAG). Now that the OAG has insufficient funding this year, for reasons best known to the Executive, we are asking for a commission of inquiry to deal with the way the money has been spent in this ministry and address the anomalies that have been brought out in the debate of Hon. Kasongo. I understand there is preference for certain people who have relationships with the people above and that some of this money might be going to form some political party somewhere.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: This may be said so simply, but these are real concerns. This is why we are asking for a commission of inquiry to deal with the issues of the way the money is being handled in the Ministry of health.

I can give an example of Namwala where money is donated by a donor organisation in the morning at 0900 hours and cashed the following day at the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) Manda Hill Branch, but before long, that same money goes back to another person’s account. This problem is real.

Mr Chairperson, Namwala is one of the oldest districts in this country. Even at the time Dr Kenneth Kaunda, our former first President was having meetings in Nanjila, Namwala was already a district. We need a district hospital, and not that small hospital where the maternity ward consists of eight beds and the pediatrics six beds to serve 200, 000 people. I have heard about district hospitals being constructed in areas where the MMD is strong.

Hon. Members: Awe!

Hon. MMD Member: Fyabufi ifyo.

Major Chizhyuka: Check your list. Those lists are very clear. They will glare in your face.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I am saying that Namwala deserves a district hospital. As we deal with issues of corruption in the Ministry of Health, we should also look at a district hospital for Namwala. Health is so important that even during Barak Obama campaign, it was one of the three key issues together with education and infrastructure development. We should epitomise that spirit in Zambia and ensure that we look after our people. I do not want to water down the debate of Hon. Kasongo who has debated well this morning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Chairperson, I would like start by congratulating the new Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Health, Dr Velepi Mtonga. I have no doubt that she will handle this ministry with the care and hard work that she has displayed in the jobs she has been involved in. I hope she will not disappoint the nation because the tendency in this country is to forget where we come from once we reach certain levels in leadership. However, I have no doubt that she will improve the health sector.

Ms Lundwe: Uzangena mu prison manje manje iwe.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I have a few words to add to the debate on the Vote on this ministry.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I have one particular interest in this ministry. This is the ad hoc committee which recommends people for travel outside the country. This committee has a big problem. I have three cases, in particular, which I would like to refer to.

There was an incident at the University of Zambia where a student was recommended for specialist treatment in South Africa. However, this student did not go and others who came after him were sent out of the country. Only the relevant authority knows what criterion was used. This student was almost dying. It took the students and I to be tear gassed by the police to force this Government to send the third year engineering student at the time to South Africa for specialist treatment which she deserved as a Zambian whose parents both died before they were paid their terminal benefits by this Government.

I am glad to report to this hon. House, because some of the hon. Members of Parliament contributed towards her trip to South Africa, that she is back and has recovered fully even though we never thought she would survive.

Mr Chairperson, without the intervention of then hon. Minister of Health, Hon. Brian Chituwo, I do not know what could have happened because the controlling officers at the ministry were confusing things when they knew what was supposed to be done for this student.

Mr Chairperson, we have another case in Russia relating to a student who came from my constituency in a township called Kaunda Square. This student was sent at a great cost through a bursary of the Republic of Zambia to study medicine in Russia. This student has been diagnosed with a health condition which can be treated where he is. However, the bureaucracy in the Ministry of Education surrounding the ad hoc committee which recommends the travels has created a confusion which I have failed to understand.

There are facilities to treat the condition of this student in the country where he is. However, there are recommendations that he should come back to Zambia …

Hon. Member: And die.

Mrs Phiri: … so that they can recommend his travel back to Russia. Do we have people with a heart in this ministry? When top Government officials get sick, they are quickly flown to South Africa even without the knowledge of the hon. Minister.

Mr Sinyinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Chairperson, I have never risen on a point of order. However, when untruth is being told to the nation, I am forced to stand up. As Chairperson of the Bursaries Committee, I have already talked to the Office of His Excellency the Ambassador in Russia to look into the case of the student she is talking about. Is the hon. Member in order to say what she is saying?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson:  I am sure that when the hon. Member for Munali was making that statement, she was not aware of the action that you have already taken. Now that she knows, maybe she should also talk about something else because action has already been taken.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection and I am glad that action has been taken.

Sir, when we say an ad hoc committee will be set up, every Zambian regardless of where they come from, be it Shang’ombo or Nyampande in Petauke, is entitled to the taxpayers money of this country. No preference should be given to a certain group of society in this country.  We should remember that we can be in a position where things are done at the click of our fingers, but let us not forget that whatever goes up always comes down. That is why I am emphasising that whoever God has given the responsibility to look after the affairs of this country should put things straight so that even when we leave office, we do not have to know anybody in authority to get what is rightfully ours.

Mr Chairperson, most clinics in my constituency have supporting staff who have worked as casual workers for a long time. We have been crying foul over investors who mistreat workers, and yet as a Government, we have failed to follow the labour laws. Some people have worked as casual workers in this ministry for as long as five years. I hope that the new hon. Minister of Health is going to look into this issue. One will work very comfortably when he or she knows that they are in a pensionable job and are assured that of a pension when they retire.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for this important ministry.

Sir, I am almost giving up.

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not give up.

Mr Chitonge: From the outset, I would like to indicate that I cannot debate the whole ministry, but I will pick a few activities within the Ministry of ‘healing’.

Laughter

Sir, when we came to Parliament in …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Did you say the Ministry of ‘healing’?

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

The Deputy Chairperson: No. Use the right terminology.

Mr Chitonge: It is the same. I thank you, Mr Chairperson …

The Deputy Chairperson: No, it is not the same, use the right term.

Laughter

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Health.

When we came to Parliament in 2006, I remember the then hon. Minister of Health, Ms Angela Cifire, was invited to a meeting in Abuja where a declaration was made that each member country would allocate 15 percent of the total budget to health.

Sir, yesterday, when the hon. Minister was making his policy statement, he talked about the Abuja Declaration although he did not go into details. He admitted that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, continue hon. Member.

Mr Chitonge: … his ministry had failed to reach the 15 per cent target as per Abuja Declaration.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation for the Ministry of Health is about 11.6 per cent. Last year, it was 11.4 per cent and in 2006, 11.2 per cent. At the pace we are moving, I do not think that we will be able to meet the 15 per cent target before 2011 or 2015. When are we going to meet Abuja Declaration of the 15 per cent?

Sir, let me talk about the activity which is so dear to my heart, the blood transfusion services. I am quite happy that at least about K3 billion has been allocated to this activity. Last year, K1 billion was allocated, but later on another amount of money was added. However, I am happy, although the K3 billion that has been allocated to this department is not enough this year. The work that this department is doing is so great that the K3 billion that has been allocated is not enough.

Mr Chairperson, yesterday, the hon. Minister stated that anaemia has reduced, especially in under five children. I challenge the hon. Minister to indicate to the House the first line of treatment, if not blood transfusion, that has contributed to the reduction of anaemia when he stands to respond to all the concerns that have been raised by hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, blood transfusion is doing a lot of wonders not only in this country, but also worldwide. In hospitals and clinics most blood transfusion is done in the labour and surgical wards. Even children who are taken to the hospital and are diagnosed with almost three or four grammes of haemoglobin need blood transfusion.

The first line of treatment that the child is supposed to receive is not ferrous sulphate, but blood transfusion. Thereafter you can talk about ferrous sulphate. Therefore, blood transfusion is doing such wonders that if allocated a lot of money, apart from the K3 billion in the Yellow Book, it could perform even more wonders.

Sir, gone are the days when we used to have voluntary blood donors. Nowadays, we do not have voluntary blood donors. That is why people are demanding to be given something for them to donate 450 mills of blood. People fear to donate blood because of the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister of Health to increase the budget allocation for this department so that blood donors can be given something to buy food and not the 1 kilogramme of sugar that they are given when they donate 450 mills of blood. Therefore, a lot of money needs to be allocated to this department.

Five years ago, donation of blood used to be conducted within the hospitals, but now it has done at the provincial centres. This is the reason provincial centres with blood banks need to be given a lot of money so that they can buy vehicles that can take them to areas that are hard to reach. It is not easy to collect blood.

 

Therefore, this department has to be given a lot of money so that even people who work there can get incentives to work hard. I am sure the Permanent Secretary and Director, as qualified doctors, will advise the hon. Minister of Health in this regard. I know he is an able hon. Minister, because he performed wonders in the Ministry of Works and Supply. When I in employment, he hon. Deputy Minister of Health then. Therefore, it is not news that he can perform wonders if he is given the support he needs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the antiretroviral (ARVs) and antiretroviral Therapy (ART) Programme. Last week, I read in The Post newspaper that people in the North-Western Province, at Solwezi General Hospital in particular, were complaining that they were getting ARVs without correct tests. Let me be a little careless in my debate by saying that this Government is contributing to the deaths of people living with HIV/AIDS. I am saying this because …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us debate to convince the others. If you debate in that manner, even the people out there will misunderstand you. The Government is not there to kill people. You put your debate properly so that people can get the right thing. If you think the Government is not doing the right thing, then ask them to do so. 

Continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, I will justify that.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: You cannot justify that. I am telling you to stop saying that the Government is contributing to the deaths of people living with HIV/AIDS.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate that the Government, together with the Church Health Association of Zambia (CHAZ), have distributed some equipment to all district and general hospitals.  The equipment is for detecting diseases before somebody is put on ARVs but this is not what is happening. It is not about numbers. Last time, I over heard the hon. Minister saying that we have a target to reach 350,000 patients on ARVs. That is not the way we are supposed to work. What about those who are already on ARVs?

Mr Chairperson, the procedure is that when somebody gets to a Voluntary, Counseling and Testing Centre (VCT), counseling is done before one is tested. When one tests positive, he or she is not supposed to be put on ARVs right away. One is supposed to undergo certain tests that will determine whether he or she should take the ARVs or not. At the moment, you will find that somebody tests HIV positive today and is given ARVs instantly without doing the CD4 count.  The liver and kidney tests are also very important. That is why sometimes you will find that somebody is given ARVs today and three to four days later, he or she is dead. What is killing them? It is those ARVs they are getting. One needs to test and know their CD4 count. They also need to know whether the liver is functioning well or not. Mind you there is no liver transplant. There is only kidney transplant.

Dr Puma: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Puma: Mr Chairperson, I am getting concerned in the manner in which the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor is debating. Is he in order to mislead the nation that one cannot be put on ARVs without doing CD4 Count when in fact, the World Health Organisation (WHO) guidelines are very clear that you can actually start ARVs on a clinical basis.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Chitonge should take that point of order from a qualified medical doctor as you debate.

Laughter

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, the protocol that he is talking about was given ten years ago when we did not have this medical equipment in hospitals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: At the moment, these protocols are not being used because we have that equipment in place. How do you administer ARVs on a clinical basis without getting what is happening to somebody’s immune system? This is why I am saying that we are contributing to the deaths of people.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: You are supposed to know how the liver is functioning before you administer the ARVs. There are toxic substances in the ARVs that are supposed to be turned into non-toxin by the liver. Therefore, if you just administer the toxic substances without knowing what the status of the liver is, how do you expect somebody to survive for three, four or five years? These ARVs will not prolong the lives of people if you give them without knowing the liver status of people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Dr Chitonge!

Laughter

Mr Chitonge: I am talking from experience because I used to do this. I am not talking from without as the hon. Deputy Minister alleged.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! From a layman’s point of view, I would like to say that Mr Chitonge was talking like a qualified doctor.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this very interesting debate. From the outset, …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, as you know, I am always very humble.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Is Hon. Dr Puma in order upon realising that Hon. Chitonge is a doctor, …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … to finish three bottles of water.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Chizhyuka, that point of order is out of order because we have already passed that.  We now have another person debating.

Continue, please.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that I am very grateful for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this interesting debate. I am standing to parry some of the concerns that have been raised by our colleagues on the other side. I think these have been very unfair concerns because in the majority of cases, they are non-existent. I must say that the Ministry of Health has been headed on two occasions by Dr Chituwo. In my opinion, Dr Chituwo has done a great deal of work for this nation which requires commendation from both sides of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, you will recall that during the time when Dr Chituwo was hon. Minister of Health, there was a distribution of vehicles to each district, training schools and hospitals. In some cases, others received two vehicles. In the North-Western Province, we were very grateful to have received twenty-five of those vehicles.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, an hon. Minister who works like that requires acknowledgment from us as hon. Members of Parliament for the good work that he has done. I would like to say that the people of North-Western Province and I as Member of Parliament for Solwezi West Constituency are indebted to the Ministry of Health.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: The Ministry of Health has given the people of Solwezi one hospital, which is nearing completion, valued at K11.5 billion. A Chinese contractor is almost ready to complete this project.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: This is not all. There are a number of hospitals and clinics that have been constructed countrywide by the Ministry of Health. We need to commend the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to report that in most of the cases where the hon. Minister of Health has had some interface, we have seen very good results. For example, the Roll Back Malaria Project is one of the best in Africa. The hon. Minister of Health should continue with this programme. Such programmes are not easy to attain. We have effective hon. Ministers of Health and people who are managing these projects at the ministry. For this, I would like to say that the former hon. Minister of Health, Hon. Dr Chituwo and the in-coming hon. Minister, Hon. Simbao, should continue working as they have been because they are doing the people of Zambia a great service.

Mr Chairperson, for the information of the hon. Members, I would like to say that I am the Vice-Chairperson of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Parliamentary Forum for the Committee on Democratisation, Governance and Gender Policy. In this regard, I would like to congratulate my Government for the appointment it made to the Ministry of Health at the level of Permanent Secretary. I know the Permanent Secretary, Dr Velepi Mtonga, very well because at one time we worked together at the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). I have no doubt that she will provide the necessary expertise to this ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to state that the Ministry of Health, as you heard in the introductory policy statement by the hon. Minister, has drawn up a number of projects and activities that will be undertaken this year. In this regard, I have no doubt that the hon. Minister as well as he did in the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Simbao!

 Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, if we take the path of condemning everything the Government is doing, we will not attain our development goals. We should, where necessary, commend the Government. We should also commend the Government when a good job is done. In my view, the condemnation I witnessed at the beginning of this budget debate was totally out of range. It does not reflect the picture that is obtaining on the ground. Yes, there may be one or two difficulties like in any other ministry, but the Ministry of Health must, at the end of the day, be commended for a job well done.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to challenge the hon. Members in this House, if they do not recall that Hon. Chituwo was able to present these vehicles in a number of other districts, to state so.

Mr Mubika: Even Shang’ombo.

Mr Mwanza: I am not sure where exactly, but I am told Shang’ombo also received a vehicle. Therefore, it is important to acknowledge that the ministry is doing a commendable job in very difficult circumstances. Let us not condemn them in the manner we have been doing on the Floor of this House this afternoon.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I also recall that the Ministry of Health has been distributing free mosquito nets to families. These things are not easy to do. In other countries, you pay for these things. However, the Ministry of Health has been distributing these items free of charge in my constituency and in a number of other constituencies countrywide.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Where do you think these mosquito nets that are distributed are coming from? They are obviously coming from the Ministry of Health which is doing its job in ensuring that the vulnerable people are protected from disease.

Mr Chairperson, I also remember that during Hon. Chituwo’s reign, there was a programme to build nursing schools in a number of districts. A beautiful nursing training school has been built in Solwezi. All this is being done because of the great effort that the hon. Minister is making.

I also recall that in Kasempa, there is some extension work taking place at one of the oldest hospitals, Mukinge General Hospital.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, all these things that we are talking about require resources mobilisation which is done by the hon. Minister who is our capitale and the person in-charge.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to say much because I know that the hon. Minister of Health is there for all our health needs. Looking at us in this House, we all look healthy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: We must commend the Ministry of Health for making us look healthy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: We look bright, smell nice and they are providing us with free condoms.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: What else can you ask for? In public toilets, hospitals or anywhere else, you will find free condoms. You are free to use them or ignore them.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I would like to say that I support the Vote for this ministry which is doing a commendable job. I would like them to continue what they are doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I wish to state that I will be brief in my debate. I would like to begin by saying that for the past few years that I have been in this House, year in and year out, it has become a tradition that the hon. Minister comes to this House and gives his policy statement which is not even followed up. We have had so many promises made in this House. We have been told that houses will be built for health workers. To this day, nothing has been done and I would like the hon. Minister to respond to that.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Health is one of the ministries that has received full funding. Like the hon. Minister stated in his statement, 95 per cent of the total budget funding has already been released to this ministry. However, the activities done are not matching with the money that has been given.

Mr Chairperson, why do we keep increasing the budget for the Ministry of Health? The answer is simply because of the high levels of poverty and unemployment and poor health delivery and water reticulation and sanitation. Why do I say so?

Mr Muteteka: You know why!
 
Mr Msichili: I will come to that later.

Mr Chairperson, it is not believable that after forty-three years of independence, the people of Kabushi are still using pit latrines. This is poverty. There is no water running from the taps, and yet there is a river that passes through my constituency. Still the people of Kabushi do not have running water.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to emphasise the issue of drugs, doctors and nurses. We should realise that life is non-partisan. Therefore we must, as a Government, ensure that everybody accesses health facilities.

Mr Chairperson, as I stated earlier, I would like to come to the issue of why we should keep increasing the budget for this ministry. First and foremost, we must look at how ministries can work hand in hand. For example, if you started with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, this is the ministry which is a key in all this.

Sir, if the Government funded this ministry adequately, it would prevent the occurrence of poverty. For example, street kids are busy abusing and fighting each other on the streets and at the end of the day, they end up in hospital. This is what is increasing the costs in this ministry. There are quite a lot of things that can be prevented.

For instance, if the Ministry of Local Government and Housing was given sufficient money to collect garbage, it would prevent cholera and there would be fewer people going to the hospital to seek medical attention due to cholera. As a result, we will be making a saving by having fewer people visiting hospitals

Sir, there is quite a lot that can be done on the roads by the Ministry of Works and Supply Local. I am saying so because of the bad state of the roads in this country which is leading to so many traffic accidents and people ending up in hospital.

Once we address these basic issues, we will have fewer people going to the hospital.

Sir, the other hon. Minister was talking about the dual carriage way. We may not have the money for the dual carriage way …

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: Order! Could you please come back to the Ministry of Health? You are debating roads. Come back to the subject on the Floor of the House or you see how you can link the roads to the Ministry of Health.

Mr Msichili: Mr Chairperson, I was coming to that.

Sir, I was saying that if you can have good roads, then we will have very few traffic accidents and fewer people going to the hospitals to seek medical attention due to traffic accidents. Since we do not have money to work on these roads, we can still build by-passes which are much cheaper for this Government.

Sir, the level of unemployment in the country is another source of problems. As a result, people will have nothing else to do, but make families.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Msichili: If someone is in employment, the mind will be kept busy and by the time they get home, they are too tired for other activities.

Laughter

Mr Msichili: As a result family planning activities will be left for the weekends. Unless, these problems are addressed, the budget for the Ministry of Health will be going up every year. Therefore, if these basic issues affecting human beings are addressed, even our budget on health will reduce.

Sir, I said that I would be brief, but as I conclude, I would simply like to say that the people of Kabushi Parliamentary Constituency need food, good health facilities, safe drinking water, affordable shelter, a good road network, jobs and real money in their pockets. The list is endless.

Mr Chairperson, if my constituency was given a modern market and the Chambeshi Road in Kabushi was worked on, I would not be going to clinic to have my blood pressure checked now and then. Therefore, I would reduce on the medical bill.

Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to talk about the NCC ….

Hon. Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: Order! Mr Msichili, we are debating the Ministry of Health.

Mr Msichili: Mr Chairperson, the NCC I am talking about is the National Council for Construction.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: Order! Does that come under the Ministry of Health?

Mr Msichili: Yes! I want to relate it to what I am debating.

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: No!

Mr Msichili: I am talking about the construction of hospitals. For example, when you look at Shang’ombo, that hospital is 90 per cent completed. We are only remaining with 10 per cent for it to be completed. This is why we are asking the NCC to bring contractors who able to finish work on time. We visited that hospital, therefore, I know what I am talking about. I am, therefore, urging this Government to put in more money so that the hospital is completed.

Interruptions

Mr Msichili: Finally, though they still have wax in their ears, I am urging this listening Government to listen to this.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson of Committee: Let me have one more debater before the hon. Minister stands up to wind up.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Chairperson, all budgets, whether domestic or national, have votes which one cannot just tamper with or do away with.

Sir, health is one such sector and this is why Zambia and many nations alike deliberated at length and reached the conclusion that for a nation to be healthy it needs to spend 15 per cent of its budget on health alone.

Mr Chairperson, in any industry, no matter how much capital, machinery or technology we pump into it, without manpower, these resources will go down the drain. That is why I will limit my debate to this very important resource; the human resource crisis in the Ministry of Health.

Hon. PF Member: Ebaume aba! Muleumfwikisha ko!

Sir, we have been informed by the hon. Minister of Health that the Government has embarked on a very serious project of building district hospitals in all the districts which had none before. The question still remains the same. Who will run these institutions? At the moment, there are health institutions, posts and rural health centres which have been built and have not been opened because there is a shortage of trained manpower. In fact, there are even rural health centres which are being manned by untrained personnel.

Mr Chairperson, I am privileged to sit on your Committee on Health. I have, therefore, extensively toured the country to see the state of health institutions in the country. The ministry has acquired modern diagnostic equipment in most health centres in the country. These are x-ray and scan machines. I was very disappointed to find that some of these machines are actually, gathering dust due to a lack of trained manpower to operate them.

Sir, we have heard of expensive drugs being acquired, and yet year in and year out, we hear of expired drugs found piling up in health institutions.

 

 

We need pharmacists to monitor stock levels of drugs and advise clinicians on how quick the drugs should be dispensed so that they do not expire. Do we have these pharmacists in place? Most pharmacies in district hospitals and other health institutions are being run by nurses who are acting as pharmacists.

The shortages of laboratory technicians in hospitals delay diagnosis to be arrived at. This delay means patients have to stay longer in hospital and that is an extra cost on the Ministry of Health. It also can cost lives as well.

Mr Chairperson, it is welcome news that many nursing schools are in the process of being reopened. The Laboratory Technologists College in Ndola has been opened. Year in and year out we produce physiotherapist graduates. Where are they working? We are not seeing them in the hospitals. We are losing these medical personnel to neighbouring countries.

Sir, the phenomenon of brain drain is not new. I remember in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was a huge brain drain to a level that in 1993, I was the only Zambian doctor in the whole Northern Province.

Mr Lubinda: Bauze nganga! Bwezapo!

Dr Katema: This was tackled by one hon. Minister of Health who took bold decisions in 1994.

Mr Lubinda: Bauze!

Mr Mwenya: Ba Sata!

Dr Katema: That was Mr Michael Chilufya Sata.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, there were no doctors. All the doctors, most of the clinical officers and other health personnel had left the country. Those who remained went into the private sector in the mines. That was the only time when we saw a reverse of that. In 1995, that was the time we saw doctors from the mines coming back to the Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Records are there in the Ministry of Health to vindicate me.

Sir, the hon. Minister then answered to the demands of the health personnel. He introduced vehicles which carried nurses to and from their places of work.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Doctors and directors were given the infamous Hyundais.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Dr Katema: Doctors, clinical officers, pharmacists and nurses came back to the Ministry of Health from the private sector.

Interruptions

Dr Katema: That can be emulated. We should listen to the health personnel and talk to them.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Health to have an audience with the health personnel and talk to them. Ask them what they go to look for in Botswana to work in a village hospital or health institution leaving the University Teaching Hospital here. Ask them why and they will give you the reasons. Most of the health personnel would answer that they need to buy a vehicle and a house. Why can the Ministry of Health not sit down and work out a scheme which can provide house loans to health personnel? In fact this is going to bind these health personnel.

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Dr Katema: Ma jealous ayo!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I really need your ruling on this point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chingola debating now in order to misinform this House on the provision of transport for health workers such as nurses and paramedical in particular, and yet it was publicised that we would start with our major institutions such as UTH, Arthur Davison, Ndola and Kitwe Central hospitals. Is he in order to overlook glaring efforts of the ministry in the provision of transport?

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Dr Katema should take that point of order into consideration as he debates.

Can you continue, please.

Dr Katema: I am happy that you have taken a leaf from one gallant hon. Minister of Health, Mr Sata.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichamba: Question!

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Health to sit down with the health personnel and work out a scheme whereby these people build their own houses and buy their own vehicles.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Why do we not help them buy proper vehicles not the half hearted attempt which was made in 2006, where second hand vehicles were bought for them?

Mr Lubinda: From salaula!

Dr Katema: If you go round, you will not find anyone with these vehicles which were bought in 2006, but people are still paying for the loans for those vehicles which were acquired. Why do we not give them brand new vehicles and waive duty on these vehicles? This is going to …

Mr Kambwili: Baleshitila fye imfumu!

Dr Katema: … motivate them and at the same time bond them to the Government. It takes ten to fifteen years for one to finish paying off a house loan. If you offer these people house loans, they are going to be bonded to the Government.

Mr Lubinda: Bauze mwana!

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, there are some circles which say that it is very difficult to recover these loans because after giving people loans they leave the country.

There is a mechanism through which the Government can monitor the going out and in of health workers and that is through the Medical Council of Zambia and the Nursing Council of Zambia. Every nurse or doctor who wants to go out has to get clearance from the Medical Council of Zambia and the list of those people with loans can be given to the Medical Council of Zambia and the Nursing Council of Zambia respectively so that they cannot be cleared until they have finished paying back the loans.

Mr Muteteka: Air lock!

Laughter

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, let me now speak on HIV/AIDS. But for time, I could have shared with the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha) some information on the difficulties health workers face in dealing with conditions relating to HIV/AIDS and these are conditions such as streptococcal meningitis and especially kaposis sarcoma.

I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

DELEGATION FROM THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF NAMIBIA

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the hon. Mr Speaker’s Gallery of a delegation from the Parliament of Namibia. The names of the hon. Members of Parliament are:

1. Hon. Hilma Nicanor, MP, Leader of the Delegation;
2. Hon. B. Sebalatani, MP; and
3. Hon. Ruth Nhinda, MP.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 The Deputy Chairperson: We are happy to have them in our midst.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for the comments and sentiments made on this Vote because they make me realise just how important this ministry is.

Mr Chairperson, I must apologise for the strong emotions that I have seen from certain hon. Members because as Ministry of Health we fear that this can develop into some form of blood pressure which we do not want to see.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise that when you speak, we listen and so try and control your tempers because we do not want to have casualties.

Mr Chairperson, I agree with what Hon. Kasongo said although it is a pity he is not in the House at the moment. I agree with what he said in the sense that some of the activities that were planned for 2008 were not done, but this is not to say that the major part of what was planned was not done.

Mr Chairperson, we completed the first phase of the district hospital and we are embarking on the second phase and it is important that when we debate, we give both sides of the story because it makes more sense in weighing how things are moving. It is true that there are some areas where we did not perform in his constituency and he has been to the ministry to discuss how we shall handle this case this year so that we can finish what we have planned in his constituency. I also want him to know that we are continuing to build the district hospital in his area.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to emphasise the point that we have all the essential drugs in the country. I invited the House to the Medical Stores Limited of Zambia to ask for any drug they would like to know whether it is there or not. I would like hon. Members to know that we have all the essential drugs in the country. The problem we have is poor communication between the centres which use these drugs and the people who are supposed to request for these drugs who are not doing so in time and they end up receiving the drugs late or they simply do not get them.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that we have a lot of drugs at the Medical Stores Limited. The warehouse is situated here in Lusaka and so, I urge hon. Members to find time to go and see for themselves.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of solar power that has just been advertised, this involves money which was given by the European Union in December. Now if the money is available in December, I do not see how somebody could have everything done in June or July. We have to wait for a no objection. This money only came in December that is why the solar panels and system have been advertised this year.

Mr Chairperson, it was not like the money was put in an account somewhere accumulating interest, no. It is important to make clear this point that there is no interest paid on Government money anywhere because that is not allowed.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Sikazwe talked about visitations. I would like to inform Hon. Sikazwe that since the time I have been in Lusaka, I have visited twenty four clinics physically, including the University Teaching Hospital and I am going to continue with these visits when we complete our budget process. This is the time I will visit almost every clinic I can get to in the country. The reason for my visits is to understand the status of these clinics and conditions under which our personnel operate.

Mr Chairperson, once I understand this, I will sit down and see how we can work as a ministry in improving the welfare of the health centres.

Mr Chairperson, I have answered Hon. Chizhyuka’s concern about electricity in hospitals. I can say that we are equally concerned about this, but when you talk about 100,000 kilometres to electrify some health facility, we are talking about not less than K15 billion and we do not have that kind of money for this kind of activity in the ministry. This task is for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development who run the Rural Electrification Programme and so we can only request them to do that, but meanwhile what is possible for us is to provide solar power and this is what we are doing.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Phiri talked about the ad hoc committee and gave reference to the fact that there are times when I do not know where some patients are. That is true because the ad hoc committee is independent and they can make a decision to transfer a patient to wherever they want the patient to go and I would be informed about it, maybe the following day. It is not important that before a patient is flown out, I should give authority because I do not appear on that committee.  The ad hoc committee decides on who goes and they send the patient and later I am informed about this. It does not run in such a way that I should know about their decision on a patient immediately.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state here that we have a lot of people on the waiting list. They are about sixty-four, if I am not mistaken, and this is because we do not have the money to send these people out of the country and so if somebody has money and they transfer themselves, that is very good because they will have assisted us as a Government.

If today, I am diagnosed with some cancer, I might not jump the queue; I might just join the queue and people must understand that.

Mr Kambwili: Daka aliya bwangu.

Mr Simbao: Hon. Chitonge, talked about blood transfusion. Firstly, blood transfusion is a very important activity that we must encourage all the people to participate in. Please, hear the plea that we need blood at our health facilities. Blood is life. Therefore, if we do not have it people might die of a cause were they would not if blood was available. So, it is important that we build our blood stocks.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform Hon. Chitonge in the budget you might see K3 billion, but it is supposed to be K4,146,030,438. However, the K7 billion that will be provided by the Public Expenditure Management Financial Accountability (PEMFA) will be in kind. Therefore, it cannot be reflected in the budget. So, really, in total for this year, we are expecting about K11 billion towards this activity.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chitonge also talked about the correction of anaemia and wanted me to say something about this. Basically, there are three ways of doing this. You can give medication as you know anaemia is a form of deficiency of iron and deformation of the blood cells. This can be corrected by giving iron and folic acid. In very severe cases, a transfusion is done. So, I do agree with him, but transfusion …

Hon. Opposition Member: Dr Simbao.

Mr Simbao: … is not the only way to correct anaemia.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of HIV/AIDS is still undergoing research. So, really there has not been any conclusive …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Simbao: … position on how we can handle this particular case. There are so many conflicting ideas. As you know, you can determine that somebody is HIV positive by just counting the lymphocytes on that person and that is allowed. The number is thirteen and above. This is enough to determine that somebody has a problem. As for how we administer this today, all our district hospitals and many other centres have CD4 count machines.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Maybe, the only equipment that some of these hospitals might not have is a machine for viral load testing. However, there is no need for anyone to be apprehensive because today, we are able to carry out a dry blood spot activity where we can take ones blood and take it to the centre in Kalingalinga and be able to tell him or her most of the information they need to know. We have agreed that probably we should have all these machines at all the centres and that should be the ultimate.

So, please, let us not be very apprehensive about raising the number of people on ARVs to 350,000. These are proven cases and they have been told where to access whatever they need.

Mr Chairperson, I take recognition of Hon. Mwanza’s debate based on facts. Facts are very important for this Government because they will make us resolve the problem amicably. I challenge most of the people to debate factually rather than raising unnecessarily issues on an important subject such as health.

I appreciate Hon. Msichili’s contribution, but I think I only picked out one issue where he said policy statements are not followed up. It is not true and I challenge the hon. Members of Parliament to check this particular one this year and see where we are going to falter. Next year, I will be very glad to be told that I said this, but it has not happened.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, our own Dr Katema raised a lot about human resources. We have always accepted in this House that we are operating at 50 per cent of the establishment. That is not a hidden fact. I would like to state that our conditions today, especially for rural workers are very good. I think in the region we are fourth to South Africa, Botswana and probably Namibia and we have seen a lot of health workers coming back to this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Therefore, we should not keep criticising ourselves when we are really doing very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We intend to improve upon what we are doing so that we can match any other country in the region.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to end by saying that health must be taken very seriously by the individual himself and also by the people who we superintend upon because if ones health deteriorates, it does not matter who he or she is, one is finished and that is it.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Dr Simbao.

Vote 46/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___

The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 10th March, 2009.