DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 10th March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER, in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Honourable Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President who is attending to other national duties, Hon. G, W. Mpombo, MP, and Minister of Defence will act as Leader of Government Business in the House. However, His Honour the Vice-President may join in the House later this afternoon.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

COMPLETION OF REHABILITATION WORKS ON THE INDEPENDENCE STADIUM

184. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development:

(a) when rehabilitation work on the Independence Stadium would be completed; and

(b) what the estimated cost of the works at (a) above was.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, the Government, through my ministry, wishes to inform this august House that the pace at which the refurbishment of Lusaka Independence Stadium is going is slow. This is mainly attributed to the delays in the tender procedures. Works on both the grandstand and open wing are yet to commence while the artificial turf has already been laid. The works on the grandstand and open wing will commence when the contractor is identified. This is when the date of completion will be determined. As at now, the bid is still open.

Mr Speaker, the total cost of refurbishing the grandstand is estimated at K240 billion. Details of the cost of works for other parts of the stadium will be availed to you later as the other phases unfold since works are beginning with the grandstand.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, may I know what the seating capacity of the stadium will be once it is completed?

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Mr Speaker, it will be 45,000 seating capacity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when money was released from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning (MoFNP) because he is talking about tendering procedures.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that we are actually discussing issues relating to the funds for my ministry and that the money has not yet been released.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s answer, the stadium will not be ready by 2010. Are there any other stadiums in the country that will be used for the World Cup other than the Independence Stadium?

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, the World Cup will not take place in Zambia, but in South Africa.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, the cost of rehabilitating the stadium is K240 billion. Instead of using that colossal sum of money to rehabilitate the stadium why did the Government not come up with a plan of constructing a new one?

Mr  Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I want to inform the hon. Member that, in fact, the quotations that we were getting to put up a new stadium or to rehabilitate the current one were in excess of K400 billion. Contractors were saying that if they had to rehabilitate the grandstand, the money that they would require to complete that job would have been in excess of K400 billion. Therefore, to us, the K240 billion is justifiable.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, hon. Minister is talking about appropriating money this year when the construction works started last year. Can the hon. Minister confirm that the problems that they have had in the ministry to have Independence Stadium finished on time is due to insufficient funds and poor planning.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, it is not poor planning. Everything hinges on funds. When funds are available, everything will move according to schedule.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I am not happy regarding the slow process of tendering. This has been going on for a long time.

Mr Speaker: Order! Question!

Mr Mooya: It is now four years since this project was put on the drawing board. Why is this tender process slow? May the hon. Minister give the details as to why the process is slow, where is the problem?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I do not think it is slow.

Interruptions

Mr Chipungu: Yes. It is not a question of being slow. As at now, the Ministry of Works and Supply is busy working on the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, is the rehabilitation being done at the Independence Stadium intended to meet international standards as requested by the Federation International of Football Association (FIFA)?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, the answer is yes.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, in answer to one of the questions the hon. Minister said that the World Cup will not take place in Zambia and yet  the Government persistently said they would like to renovate the stadiums to chance those teams which might want to practice in Zambia. Has the Government changed their stance since the World Cup will not be held in Zambia and therefore it is not necessary to repair the stadium?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, well, I think my hon. Deputy Minister was right by saying that the World Cup will be played in South Africa. However, it is our considered view that the stadium will be complete by 2010 and the Government is also looking at the possibility of renovating the Maramba Stadium in Livingstone.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, arising from the answers that have both been given by the hon. Deputy Minister and the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, one of the hiccups that they have had is the tendering procedures and the amounts that they are subjecting to maintenance and upgrading the Independence Stadium is about K240 billion for the grand stand. Why is there no specific time as to when they will be able to complete this project taking into account that they already know that there are these great sporting games that are coming up? Can you give us a definite time frame when these will be completed rather than telling us they will be completed when funds are available? If you are able to know when funds will be available, when are you going to know about the completion of the Independence Stadium?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, funds being made available, I want to assure this House that through the hard working hon. Minister of Works and Supply, the stadium should be ready before the 2010 World Cup tournament in South Africa. The problem really is the finance like I have said and the other hiccup is with the contractors themselves. Surely, there is no way you can quote over K400 billion just to do the grand stand. This may just force the Government to find other co-operating partners to do this job for us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, this Parliament passed the Zambia Public Procurement Act in order to expedite procurement procedures in the Government. Is the hon. Minister correct to state that even under new rules and regulations which provides for single sourcing, they are not able to expedite the construction of the stadia in this country which the South Africans have offered to send some of their teams to come here? I want a clear answer from the hon. Minister.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that the issue of the threshold sometimes is a problem. What is beyond our ministry is referred to the Tender Board of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, we have other stadia that have not been constructed apart from the Independence Stadium. Why can we not at least for once have a time frame and complete a project without encountering all the usual hustles that might lead to the failure of completing the construction of this stadium by 2010?

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that we are a developing country and as such, we are trying to make sure that a lot of stadia are renovated. The renovations of the Independence Stadium will be completed before the 2010 World Cup.

Hon. Opposition Members: Next year.

Mr Chipungu: We are also looking at the possibility of renovating the Maramba Stadium in Livingstone in time for the World Cup preparatory games in South Africa.

Thank you, Sir.

NUMBER OF ZAMBIAN AND FOREIGN NATIONALS OWNING LAND IN LUSAKA PROVINCE

185. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Lands:

(a) how many Zambian nationals owned 1,000 or more hectares of land in the Lusaka province; and
(b) how many foreign nationals owned the same amount of land as at (a) above in the Lusaka Province.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Hamir): Mr Speaker, there are six Zambian nationals who own 1,000 or more hectares of land and there are three foreign nationals who own 1,000 or more hectares of land in the Lusaka Province.

Mr Speaker, it is important to mention that companies are legal entities and as such, they are considered as persons before the law with regard to holding land. In this regard, there are thirteen Zambian owned companies that own 1,000 or more hectares of land in the Lusaka Province and there are fifteen foreign owned companies that own 1,000 or more hectares of land in the Lusaka Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in Zambia, land has no value before it is developed. I want to find out why the Government has allowed and kept watching Meanwood sell undeveloped land at exorbitant prices such as K55 million for a four hectare piece of land.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Mukuma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Member that following the amendment to the Lands Act of 1995, land has now got value even before it is developed and therefore it is not true to say land has no value.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, is he aware that some of those foreigners who own land in excess of 1,000 hectares got it before independence and are now sub-dividing them at US$15,000 per hectare far beyond the reach of an ordinary Zambian? Is the hon. Minister aware that there is a creation of a foreign stand? What are you doing about it?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, we are aware that there is a lot of idle land that foreigners are selling. As a result, we have started a land audit of the whole country to find out which land is not developed with a view of repossessing it so that the Government can re-allocate it to other developers. We are now taking action to ensure that the situation is corrected.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to shed light on the Baobab Land. This land was competitively applied for by many Zambians, but the Government restricted it and gave it to prospective developers who were to put a housing complex for civil servants. However, the same land is now said to be selling on the open market between US$60,000 to US$100,000 per acre. Has the Government got intentions of getting back this land taking into account that many Zambians had expressed interest, but were halted by it in preference for the two developers who were supposed to put up a housing complex for civil servants?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the Baobab Land was given to Legacy Holdings because of the development plan which was submitted to the Government. The plan indicated development of a shopping mall, a hotel, a golf course and residential houses. It also showed the number of jobs the project would generate and since job creation is a priority of the Government and the nation as a whole, the land was given to them.

However, we have caught wind of the sale of the land and we have talked to them about it. They have indicated that they are only testing the market for the …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mukuma: … acceptability of the type of residential areas that would be developed there. All the same, we have written to Legacy Holdings that if it is true that they are selling the land, it should stop immediately because it is contravening the agreement.

Mr Kambwili: Repossess the land. Mwalilyamo?

Mr Mukuma: We have also given a three months ultimatum in which to produce evidence of the capacity to develop and a time frame within which development will commence and end. That is the action we have taken so far. The three months period will end in May, this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, at what point is a sale? Why is hon. Minister’s ministry hearing that they are selling land when the point of sale must be at the point of registration at his ministry? He should have facts.

Mr Muntanga: No wind.

Mr Hachipuka: No, not wind. At what point is a sale of a piece of land? In this particular case, why does he not know the facts on Baobab Land?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, it is correct that the point of sale is when there are documents provided by our office. The truth is that the land is not even subdivided because we are supposed to provide permission which we have not done. We have not issued any document for the sale of this land.  It is on this basis that I am saying that we have got wind of it. All the same, we have taken action by telling them that if they are selling, they should stop immediately.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that a piece from that chunk of land had earlier been allocated to the Second Republican President for the construction of his residence by the Government, but it was taken away from him. In view of the fact that the people you gave the land do not utilise it for the purpose they said they would, since they are contemplating selling it, will the Government build a residence for the Second Republican President on that land?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, at the moment, the land is still under Legacy Holdings. If we are not satisfied within the three months ultimatum period that we have issued, we shall repossess it. It is only then that we can consider various uses to which it can be put.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! I draw the attention of the House to Question 185. Since we are now discussing Baobab Land, I take it that supplementary questions on that main question have been exhausted, unless any hon. Member goes back to what is raised under Question 185.

Mr Muntanga indicated his wish to speak.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, unless you want to go back to this question.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that they had found idle land which they still want to audit. Why is the ministry failing to repossess this land since its state is a major reason to prompt such action?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the idea is to repossess land. However, we must appreciate the fact that this land was legally allocated to these people. Therefore, there are procedures to be followed when repossessing it. Unless that procedure is fulfilled, we cannot repossess it. Hon. Members may wish to know that repossessing some of the land may not be straight forward and may involve going to court. The process has already been initiated. We are hoping to repossess all the land that is idle.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the Government has reserved land somewhere for the construction of houses for future Presidents.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, I do not think that we are in a position to decide where future Presidents should settle. We have had an experience where a former President has rejected land allocated to him. It is difficult for us to reserve land for people as they may not find it favourable. Therefore, that is not in our immediate plan.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga I would like to find out at what cost the companies – the five locals and three foreigners – obtained the 1000 hectares each?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the land that we have just mentioned here was obtained in different years. Some of it was obtained during the colonial Government and the other early after independence. Therefore, it would be difficult for me to give that figure now. If the hon. Member wants to pursue that, we can always provide the answer.

Sir, I thank you.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, audits by their nature, be they forensic or ordinary, take time. If people of Legacy Holdings are testing the wind, what is the timeframe for the hon. Minister to audit this land and its other parcels for him to see which way to go? Will he not be overtaken by the wind?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, generally, we have more or less finished auditing the land. A report will soon be submitted and action of repossession will commence immediately.  For the Legacy Land …

Mr Speaker: Order! Do not go back to Legacy. Answer question 185. You may continue.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I have just mentioned that we have just finished carrying out the land audit we embarked on in some provinces. A report will soon be submitted and immediately this is done, we shall commence the process of repossessing the land.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister be precise about the land audit in Lusaka. When was the last land audit done in Lusaka and how much land do we have?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, with regard to when the land was last audited in Lusaka, I would like to say that I am not sure, but the audit that we have just conducted was completed in January, this year. If this was a separate a question, I would have given the exact figure, but roughly, for the information of hon. Members, we have about 2000,000 hectares of land in Lusaka.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that it is unaffordable for ordinary Zambians to obtain land, particularly in Lusaka, and the roads are completely congested. Has the Government got any plans to shift or allocate another piece land where a new capital city for this country can be built?

Mr Mbewe: To Chipata!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the decision of shifting the capital city from Lusaka to another area is not one of our mandates in the Ministry of Lands. However, immediately we are told by the relevant organs of the Government that it is time we gave them land in a particular area because that is where they would like to shift the capital, we shall gladly do so.

I thank you, Sir.

MUFULIRA COPPER MINE

186. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) what the life span of Mufulira Copper Mine was;

(b) how much the Government projected to collect in taxes from the above mine up to the time of expiry of its life span; and

(c) whether Mopani Copper Mine had any plans to close the mine at (a) above.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House as follows:

(a) Mufulira has an estimated total of 8,117,174 tonnes at 2.2 per cent copper of mineable reserve up to 1,423 metre level. At the mining rate of 2.2 million tonnes per year. The mine life span of Mufulira Mine above 1,423 metre level is four years. However, if the mine reserves were mined to 1,440 metre level and all the measured and indicated resources and inferred resources would be mined down to 1,640 metre level, the mine life of Mufulira could be extended to twelve years.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, the life of the mine could be extended with further capital development and exploration drilling. Significant capital expenditure would be required for development in order to extend the current reserves and the life of the mine;

(b) it is anticipated that at a production rate of approximately 44,166 contained copper per year, the projected revenue from royalty to be collected by the Government would be US$18,549,720 at a metal price of US$3,500 per tonne. It is not feasible to project amounts collectible for the long term because all factors that determine taxable amounts are subject to constant review. These periodic reviews are occasioned by changes in the economic environment. However, the question could be referred to the appropriate ministry which is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and

(c) yes, Mopani Copper Mine Plc has firmly indicated to Government that they would close the mine by 14th April, 2009. However, the company has not effectively informed my ministry as per the requirement of Section 34 of the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 7 of 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, Mopani Copper Mine (MCM) Board Meeting was held last week and a decision to close Mufulira Copper Mine was made. I would like to find out the Government’s position since MCM wants to pull out. What does the Government intend to do with Mufulira Copper Mine?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to correct the hon. Member for Chipili that no board meeting was held last week. In fact, it is my ministry which summoned the Chairperson for Mopani Copper Mines to come to Lusaka so that we could engage him over what was emerging on the Copperbelt.

Sir, as regards the Government’s position, it is quite clear that we would not like to see the continued loss of jobs on the Copperbelt. Therefore, we have indicated to him, in no uncertain terms, that if they want to put the mine under care and maintenance, they should surrender the assets to the Government as we would know how best to use them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I hope I will be allowed to finish my question. During the sale of the mines to foreign investors, did our Government explain to these investors that the mines in Zambia, and especially the Copperbelt, were not just profit centres or profit generators, but provided the following to Zambians:

(a) employment;

(b)  training and human resources development;

(c) business opportunities;

(d) foreign exchange earnings;

(e) contribute to the gross domestic product (GDP);

(f) health and educational facilities and

(g) sponsor the quality sporting facilities including soccer.

As such, has the Government explained to the mine owners that because of the factors I have explained, the mines are not to be shut down or put under care and maintenance merely because the profit levels have reduced?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the issue that the hon. Member has put across can be summed up as political, social and economic situations that we cannot allow to take place on the Copperbelt.

Mr Speaker, the new investors are fully aware of the implications that arise whenever a mine closes on the Copperbelt, in terms of revenue to Government and in terms of lose of employment to our people.

Sir, as I am still on the Floor of this House, I would like to continue to appeal to Mopani Copper Mines Plc that they revisit their decision to close the mines on the Copperbelt. If they want to go ahead, like this is their free world, we appeal to them to surrender the assets to this Government and we will know exactly what to do with our assets which are God given.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has continued to insist that the owners of the mines will surrender the mines to Government instead of putting them under care and maintenance. In the event that the mines refuse to surrender those assets to Government, what will they do?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the hon. Member to have faith in this Government. This is a Government which is in power and it has got all the options under its disposal. I repeat, this Government is in power and it will do whatever it can to protect the interests of its people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, at the time when the sale of Mopani Copper Mines Plc was done, what clause was put in the agreement in terms of the exist package to be effected at a time when the mines would want pull out? I am saying this because we look like we have problems on how this whole issue must be negotiated. Can you be specific and tell us what clause you put in these agreements so that we do not have to use power to repossess these assets, but to go by the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has in fact answered his own question. As we would like to be seen as people who respect the law, the Mines and Minerals Act is very explicit as to what an investor has to do at a time they want to pull out. This is indicated under Section 34 of the Mines and Minerals Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has explained what they are going to do to repossess the mines. Does he realise that most of the mining companies, since the price of copper started going down, are still making a profit arising out of the contract they signed? For example, Luanshya Copper Mines have made profit and paid all the workers. They are still making a profit. Where those contracts for a period of six months?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, although I did not follow fully what the hon. Member for Lubansenshi was putting up, I would like to say that, as the Government, we have been very consistent about the current copper price which is obtaining as still being good and our mines still being very viable. This was evidenced by the studies that were carried out by the semi investors that indicated the price of US$1.5 per pound which translates to about US$3,300 per tonne. As of today, the price is about US$3,500 per tonne. This means that the price is up swelling.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I like the nationalist sentiments that I am hearing from the hon. Minister. That is very good. Following the answer that the he has given to the question raised by the hon. Member for Luena, particularly, with reference to corporate social responsibility. This is with respect to the Stadia. What is it that the South Africans are doing that we are not where a tribe called Bafokeng is building a stadium to be used during the 2010 World Cup tournament when they only have 22 per cent share of the platinum mine in that country? How is it possible that a tribe can build a stadium to be used during the 2010 World Cup tournament and it has been approved by FIFA when a country called Zambia – in which you are hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and which has minerals such as copper, uranium, palladium, nickel and gold – cannot build a stadium. To do so, you have to look for the Chinese or other co-operate partners.  Do you think you are managing the mineral resources of this country well?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development may wish to go into stadium development if he so wishes.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, that was expected of the national Chairperson of the indigenous people.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to take the hon. Member to Section 136 of the Mines and Minerals Act which was passed thorough this House last year where an effort has been made to ensure that the mineral royalty that is collected accrues to the communities where mining activities are being undertaken. This is how I can answer the Chairperson of the indigenous people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister tell this House and the nation, precisely, what it intends to do with the mines when they are handed over back to them. This is considering that initially they were very reluctant to give these mines to Zambians for mining purposes, who are in actual fact working for the foreign investors in this country?

Mr M B Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to clarify a few issues. Our business, as Government, is to provide an enabling environment to any-would be investor into our the mining sector. That is our business. As regards mining, it is a business of the private sector.

Mr Speaker, when these mines are surrendered to this Government, we will not be short of private investors who can move into these mines. When we talk about private investors it includes even the hon. Member for Ndola Central, if he has got the capital needed.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister at what level Mopani is mining now. Furthermore, is it because of the cost of hosting copper up that they intend to close the mines?

Mr M B Mwale: Mr Speaker, Mopani has indicated that they are mining at the level of 1,423 metres deep. However, I would like to quickly add that anybody who is in the business of mining will agree that this is normal.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, when we sold the mines to foreign investors, the Government retained what is called a Golden Share. A Golden Share gives the Government the right to advise the mines not to venture into any other business. In the event that the mines want to close, the Government can call the Golden Share in such a way that it can put pressure on the mines not to close. Has the Government thought of using its Golden Share?

 Mr M B Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of this follow-up question from the hon. Member for Katuba to inform the House that historically, Zambia has been a mining country not a mineral processing country, as the investors would like to turn us into. We will, in actual fact use the Golden Share as and when it is necessary.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in yesterday’s newspaper, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development was quoted saying mining companies that raised money through the Stock Exchange could not do so anymore. He said it was not possible. As a result, the only people who have the money to invest in these mines are the Chinese. Is this an admission by this Government that should Mopani Mine close, they will give it to the Chinese?

Mr M B Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that world wide, the equity markets are now dry. Even the banks cannot give out a loan of above US$300 million. In that statement, I alluded to the fact that even the so-called developed countries are now looking up to the Chinese economy in order to bail out their own economies. Therefore, who are we, in a country like Zambia, to demonise the Chinese? That is why I brought that statement.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that I did not say that we are handing over Luanshya Mine to the Chinese. However, if they are part of those investors who are interested in it, they will be considered, just like any other investor.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Question!
ESTABLISHEMENT OF A POLICE AIRWING

188. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Home Affairs how far the Ministry had gone with the plans to establish a police airwing.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that plans to establish a police airwing are underway. It must be borne in mind that substantial amounts of money are needed for the procurement of the aircraft and also training of the crew. The project was rescheduled to this year with the hope that the budget would permit. However, we are constrained by the budgetary allocation, which has made it impossible for the project to take off.

Mr Speaker, hopefully, next year, funds allowing, the establishment of the airwing will be considered, as it would greatly assist in tracking of stolen motor vehicles and provide support to other police operations. It would be interesting to note that Zambia Police Force had an airwing in the 1970s. However, prohibitive costs of running the air wing coupled with the low crime rate obtaining at the time caused the aircrafts to be underutilised and consequently, the airwing was discontinued.

Mr Speaker, there is an urgent need to revive the airwing in the police force, more especially at this time when the crime rate has increased. The House may wish to know that Zambia is the only country in the southern region which does not have a police airwing.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, considering that the ministry is still planning to go ahead with the plans to establish an air unit, possibly next year, are there any other preparatory arrangements like training and making contacts with the people you expect to assist you when you start the programme? Basically, are there any activities that you are starting to undertake in preparation of establishing the airwing next year?

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, everything has to go by the availability of money. Until such a time when we will be allocated money which will include the training of the crew and the purchase of the aircraft, we cannot start. However, arrangements for this exercise are already underway.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, this Government keeps going back and forth. Some three or four years ago, they trained police officers to fly helicopters. They informed this House that the choppers used by the police were surrendered to the Air Force and they would have to repossess them. Now, the hon. Minister is informing us that they are thinking about training officers. Can we get something straight here? Why is it that this ministry keeps going back and forth in the establishment of an airwing?

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, I have already indicated that we had our own crew, which were flying our helicopters. Due to the reasons that have already been outlined, we surrendered them to Zambian Air Force including the crew members. Until such a time when we resuscitate this programme, we are going to train our officers.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state as to whether the Zambia Police Service has any aircraft currently.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member could follow when answers are being given. That question has already been answered.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, in times when there are no wars, the army or air force are called in to help with civil duties. Has the Ministry of Home Affairs considered working in conjunction with the Zambia Air Force to help them in times when aircrafts are needed to fight crime?

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, the Zambia Air Force is used by any other Government wing when need arises and we are not an exception. When there is a crisis, we have always asked for their help and they have always rendered it to us.

 I thank you, Sir.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I am wondering whether there is any prudence or ethic in light of the question asked by the hon. Member for Katuba. Would this ministry really want to have an air wing when they are not able to run traffic police, …

Hon. Government Members: Ash!

Mr Matongo: …that is the truth of the matter. You do not have the funding. It is not the question of false start in Africa to start up things which you are not able to fund? Do you not think that you should be encouraged to pass on the money to the air force and build on that until you have sufficient funds to establish an air wing as a country?

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has already answered the question by saying that we will be able to take up the project when we have a reasonable amount of money and that is what we are looking for. Immediately we secure these funds, we are going to start this exercise because it is very important in the execution of police operations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr P. P. Chanda: Mr Speaker, I find it very difficult to follow. May I, therefore, know from the hon. Minister if it is proper for Government to engage in air patrols when they fail to patrol on foot?

Laughter

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo):  Mr Speaker, I want to state that the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kankoyo is, indeed, mind boggling.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Sir, the question here is on the establishment of an air wing which we have recognised as very important in the fight against crime in this country. Therefore, it cannot be reduced to a cross country question.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that when a crisis arises, then they will think of finding money to combat the anticipated crime rate. Will the hon. Minister tell us what immediate plans this Government has to combat the envisaged crime increase in this country in view of the job losses in the mining industry where we are expecting more than 10,000 people to lose their jobs and thereby leading to an increase in the crime rate. Will they be able to find the money immediately?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to state that the question of job losses is a global phenomenon and a quagmire.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Therefore, the Government has got a commitment of ensuring that we protect our citizens. Whether there are massive job losses or not, Government will stand by that irrevocable commitment.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 46 − (Ministry of Health − K1,804,792,357,570).

(Consideration resumed)

Vote 46/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 76 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – K22,860,190,713)

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for affording me this opportunity to present to this august House a policy statement for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development in respect of the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 2009.

Madam, the mandate of my ministry is contained in the Government Gazette Notice No. 547 of 2004. The functions of the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development are to formulate and administer policies as contained in our mission statement:

 “To effectively promote, co-ordinate and monitor child, youth and sports development in order to contribute to sustainable socio-economic development for the benefit of the people of Zambia.”

Madam Chairperson, the ministry also operates within the Fifth National Development Plan which states that the vision for the Government on child and youth development is to enhance their survival.

The goal is to increase the level of participation by children and the youth in all developmental areas affecting their well being, livelihood and to enhance observance and protection of their rights in order to build a sound human resource base which will contribute to wealth creation, socially optimal investments and sustainable national development.

Madam, according to the blue print, the goal of the ministry/Government in sport, youth and child development is to prioritise national child and youth programmes through comprehensive and multi-sectoral plans in order to integrate children and the youth in development to ensure their development and protection through a well co-ordinated and multi-sectoral approach by 2030.

Madam Chairperson, in order to carry out its functions, the ministry operates under four departments namely: Departments of Human Resource, Sport, Youth and the Department of Child Development.

The main function of the Human Resource and Administration Department is to effectively co-ordinate all the administration, human resource development and management to provide logistical support services for the efficient and effective operation of the ministry.

The ministry will this year embark on reviewing the current strategic plan in order to formulate a new plan for the period 2010 to 2014.

Madam, the Department of Sport Development works in line with the mission statement, “To enhance Zambia’s sports performance in regional and international competitions,” the performance in regional and international competitions, and the performance of my ministry in the field of sport in 2008 was fairly good. In 2008, the following were the achievements.

(i) Zambia qualified to the inaugural 2009 Africa Cup of Nations Championship for home based players (CHAN) hosted in Ivory Coast;

Madam Chairperson, at this point I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the National Team for winning, at least, a bronze medal for this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu:

(ii) the senior national football qualified to the second round of the 2010 World and Africa Cup to be held in South Africa and Angola respectively.

(iii) in professional boxing, Zambia, through Esther Phiri, defended the Women’s Global Boxing Union Super Flyweight Title twice and became the new Women’s Global Boxing Union Lightweight Champion;

(iv) furthermore, Zambia, through Joseph Chingangu and Kennedy Kanyanta, grabbed the African Boxing Union Heavyweight and Global Boxing Union Bantam Weight titles respectively;

(v) in netball, Zambia emerged champion in the Southern Regional Confederation of Netball Association Championship, while in athletics, it also minted gold, silver and bronze medals in the Commonwealth Under Twenty Championship held in India. The nation also minted eighteen medals in the Zone Six Under twenty Southern African Development Community (SADC) Games held in Potchefstroom, South Africa;

(vi) the Zambia Amateur Swimming Union won a gold medal in a five nations Zambia Invitational International Gala held in April 2008;

(vii) in golf, the country won gold in the ladies tournament involving Botswana, Zambia and Zimbabwe held in Livingstone. Furthermore, Zambia won the All Africa Challenge Trophy Tournament in May, 2008 in Egypt;

(viii) in Judo, Zambia minted a total of six gold and four bronze medals in 2008. In the Commonwealth Judo Championship held in Mauritius, Zambia won gold and three bronze medals. In the SADC Zone six Judo Championship, Zambia won five gold medals; and

(ix) last but not the least; Zambia became the First African Nation to have a Grandmaster in Chess through Amon Simutowe.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to outline the main sports programmes for 2009.

In 2009, the major sports programmes for the country are participation in CHAN (2009) and the 2010 World and Africa Cup second round qualifying matches. In this regard, my ministry needs about K7.7 billion to enable the Zambia National Football Team to adequately prepare and effectively take part in these games in order to bring glory and honour to this nation. However, only K905 million has been allocated.

Madam Chairperson, other sport programmes include the SADC and the Commonwealth Games. These activities, unfortunately, have not been budgeted for. The impact will be poor performance or non-participation in these sport disciplines.

Madam Chairperson, in the Department of Youth Development, in 2008, my ministry undertook the following programmes:

During the youth week celebrations, the ministry successfully co-ordinated preparations of the 2008 youth week celebrations under the theme “promoting partnership between the youth and other stakeholders for national development” and one hundred and seventeen youth groups participated in the match past.

During the national agriculture and commercial show, the ministry mobilised and sponsored several youth groups country-wide in order to help them exhibit their products at the show.

On skills training, the ministry runs sixteen youth resource centres in nine provinces. During the year under review, 1,409 youths were trained in various skills from these resource centres.

On placement and settlement of skilled youth, by the end of the year, various centres were in the process of settling their graduates, although funding was a limiting factor.

On infrastructure development, in 2008, the ministry released funds towards the construction and rehabilitation works for the following seven youth resource centres:

Location Resource Centre

 1. Kazungula Kazungula District, Southern Province
 2. Mwinilunga Mwinilunga District, N/Western Province
 3. Muoyo  Senanga District, Western Province
 4. Ngungu Kabwe, Central Province
 5. Kwilimuna Mpongwe, Copperbelt Province
 6. Mbabala Choma
 7. Samfya Samfya District, Luapula

Madam Chairperson, on the review of the national plan of action, the ministry in collaboration with United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) and United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) held a consensus building workshop in 2008 as part of the process to review the national plan of action. This was done in order to operationalise the national youth policy. However, the document is still being developed.

 Regarding youth network on population and development, the ministry with the support from UNFPA launched the youth network on population and development in five provinces namely, Central, Copperbelt, Lusaka, Luapula and North Western provinces. The network co-ordinates activities on sexual conduct among the youth and adolescents, reproductive health and other related issues such as HIV/AIDS in the provinces.

Madam Chairperson, on infrastructure development with regard construction of youth resource centres, there is no doubt that skills and creativity training are essential pre-requisites to accelerate economic, social and political development through formal or self employment cognisant of the high unemployment levels among the youth, and the increasing number of people looking for employment as well as the existing high poverty levels. It is important to promote skills training among the youth in order to empower them and enable them to become innovative for their survival. This is only possible if the facilities are available.

Madam Chairperson, in this regard, the ministry engages the youth in national development by establishing youth resource centres across the country. The goal is to have, at least, one resource centre in each district of Zambia. This will go a long way in empowering the youth, and will result in job creation and poverty reduction. I am requesting hon. Members in this august House to assist in this area by putting a portion of their constituency development fund (CDF) towards the construction of these skills training centres in the various districts.

Madam Chairperson, in 2009, the ministry will continue to undertake this programme and K2.5 billion is required to implement the programme. However, only K30 million has been allocated this year due to financial constraints.

Madam Chairperson, on placement and resettlement of skilled youth, my ministry has faced a lot of challenges in as far as placement of graduates from youth resource centres and Zambia National Service training camps is concerned. Many of them fail to find gainful employment or start their own businesses and others end up getting back to old habits. Any one who is, has been out of or has never worked knows that unemployment is a distressing experience. Graduates are bound to get frustrated if after acquiring skills they are not absorbed in formal or informal employment. The frustrations can be a potential time bomb. It is in this regard therefore, that my ministry wants to establish youth industrial parks to provide young men and women with space and equipment to venture into business.

Madam Chairperson, the objective is to create an enabling environment for the youth not to go back to the streets. The ministry will buy equipment and place it in strategic locations so that graduates from youth resource centres and Zambia National Service Camps can use them to generate income as start-up capital for their livelihoods.

Madam Chairperson, to effectively implement the programme, the estimated cost in the medium term expenditure framework is K128 billion which means, approximately K30 billion is needed every year. In 2009, K91 million has been provided, well below the required K30 billion.

Madam Chairperson, the department of child development has the mandate to create a conducive environment for the protection and promotion of children’s rights so that they grow up to their fullest potential. A number of programmes are undertaken like the rehabilitation and integration of street children. In the area of child development, one of the critical programmes to be implemented in 2009 is the rehabilitation and reintegration of street and vulnerable children. The number of orphans, vulnerable and street children continues to rise due to HIV/AIDS and poverty.

Madam Chairperson, the aim of the programme therefore is to address the problem of street and vulnerable children as well as unemployment through the provision of skills and training. In 2009, my ministry wanted to scale up this programme by mobilising and recruiting six hundred (four hundred boys and two hundred girls) street children and other young vulnerable people. The ministry estimated that K3.5 billion was needed for this programme. If fully implemented, the impact of the success of this programme cannot be over emphasised. It will result in the delivery of empowerment to street and vulnerable children and further lead to a socially organised Zambian society.

Madam Chairperson, as regards OVC/HIV/AIDS, this programme will focus on strengthening the capacity of parents and guardians to take care of children, especially orphans and vulnerable children, in the provision of health care, education and good nutrition. The programme is critical in view of the negative impact of HIV/AIDS. We need a healthy nation and this can only be achieved if the problem of HIV/AIDS is addressed at the lowest level. Children are the future of the nation and the future can only be guaranteed by having healthy children.

Madam Chairperson, on the establishment of the Zambia council for the child, as I stated in my contribution to the president’s speech on the ceremonial opening of the Third Session of the Tenth National assembly, my ministry will go further to improve the lives of children and the vulnerable by establishing this Zambia council this year.

Madam Chairperson, the objective is to strengthen co-ordination and implementation of programmes on child developments and harmonise and tighten the legal framework.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to end by asking the august House to support the estimate of expenditure for my ministry in order to implement the programmes.

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, the impact of our policies and programmes on the development of the nation is tremendous and cannot be over emphasised. My ministry is directly involved in defining and shaping the future of the nation through empowering the youth, who constitute 66 per cent of the population of Zambia and who are the leaders of tomorrow. It is with this in mind that, I wish to request this august House to support the estimates of expenditure for my ministry.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this vote. I will definitely support the vote for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development because I have no choice but to do so. This is because in cases where we, hon. Members on your left, have felt that the money allocated is not enough and have called for a division the people on your right have not supported us. So, even if the money is very little, we will simply agree. What can we say? As much as we would have wanted the ministry to have more money the people who call for divisions do not support us? Next time, if we call for a division for your ministry please, can you come to the other side where they are in support of an increase in allocation. Do not go to your group there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Ebanakashi aba.

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the Netball Association needs more money from the ministry. After all, from what the hon. Minister was reading, they brought some medals to this country with no support, at all, from the Government. I think they deserve to be supported.

Madam Chairperson, I want to congratulate Esther Phiri because she has kept up the momentum of winning these belts. I am glad that the last time I debated on this ministry, I suggested that Esther Phiri be given a house by the Government which she was given three days later. The then late President Mwanawasa instructed that Esther Phiri be given a house and she got it. I hope she will keep it, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: … she deserved that house then as she still does now. I hope in future she will still deserve it. However, if there is another house, there is no harm in Government …

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: … giving her another one …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Aah, ah!

Mrs Musokotwane: … because she keeps winning and not losing. Why not indeed?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes. Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, let me also thank the ministry for starting-up a youth training centre in my constituency, though the pace at which they are building is very slow. We needed that youth training centre years back, but now since the works have been started please, can they speed up, though I have not seen any money allocated to this centre in the Yellow Book this year. I hope the hon. Minister is going to explain to me why they have not allocated any money for that centre this year. This is because really, as I have said, we needed this centre ten years ago. Now, that the Government has started building, they should not slow down the pace at which they are building. They should actually quicken the pace so that by 2010 we should have youths learning at that training centre.

Madam Chairperson, I am disappointed with the amount of money that the ministry has given to the Girl Guide Association. This is one association which builds characters of the girls. Really, when you look at people like me, the good qualities and character you see in me is because I came through this association.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: From a brownie to a ranger. Most of the honourable women you see in this country went through the Girl Guide Association.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: So, for the Government to give an association which is building characters for its nation K50,000,000 only …

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: A point of jealousy.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Chair, I have listened very carefully to what the hon. Member for Katombola is saying, but is she in order to keep us listening to her talking about her good qualities, which I have not seen and I do not even see them there as she stands, all this while?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: You are blind.

Mr Mabenga: I do not see them in her anywhere. Now, is she in order to begin talking about the qualities only sees and knows? Is she in order?

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order! The speech of the hon. Member on the Floor did not infringe on anybody’s right here and she is free to say what she knows about herself.

Hon. Member may continue.

Mrs Musokotwane: Thank you, Madam Chair, kulibonesha ta.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, another organisation here where the ministry is supposed to put some more money is the Young Women Christians Association (YWCA). I have noticed that in this year’s Yellow Book, they have not been given anything and yet, this is another Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) that is really helping Government to look after women, especially those who are being battered by their husbands. They find refuge at YWCA. This is an organisation that has drop-in centres. When husbands in their homes …

Madam Chairperson: Order! Do not debate husbands.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: When husbands in this country batter their wives …

Hon. Opposition Members: Like Mabenga.

Mrs Musokotwane: … they can run to YWCA, where they are going to find food, accommodation, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Lungwangwa.

Mrs Musokotwane: … clothing and even the children that they run away with are looked after. If these children are school going, YWCA ensures that they continue going to school. If it means buying them uniforms, they do so. Also, there are children who are in crisis, who are being looked after by this association.

Madam Chairperson, this job is supposed to be done by Government. That is the more reason why Government should give more money to YWCA because they are doing part of their job.

Madam Chairperson, now, it is Care International, American Embassy and European Union, who are supporting YWCA. Does it mean that Government is not appreciating what these women are doing? I want to believe that they are appreciating them. If they do appreciate them please, can they support them by giving them more funds so that more women, who are violated in this country, can lead better lives. This is because besides looking after them, they take them to court and pay lawyers who represent their. They also empower these women economically so that if they happen to go back, as some of the husbands go to plead with YWCA and show remorse for their actions, they able to start running their own businesses. Some of the women have even withdrawn cases from court because they have been impressed by their husbands who swear not to repeat their actions again. Unfortunately, immediately the women go back, they fall prey of victimisation once again. It these types of women that YWCA empowers economically and gives them skills training …

Mr Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised. I hope it is on procedure because the Chair, does not want to entertain any sort of issue that is not supposed to constitute a point of order.

Mr Zulu: Madam Chair, you know that I rarely stand on a point of order. Last Sunday, we commemorated the International Day of Women and we were told that it was about sharing of responsibility.

Is she in order to just be talking about the Girl Guides Brigade and YWCA without mentioning the boy scouts and the Young Men Christian Association (YMCA)? I need your serious ruling, Madam.

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The point of order is simply an attempt to bring in new points. The hon. Member can ask for his time to debate.

Hon. Musokotwane may continue.

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the boy scouts can also be given a little more funding, but when one looks at the figures …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: … they have …

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair has ruled on the point order and therefore, continue with your debate.

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the YWCA really deserves to be given more money than it is getting from the Government because right now the organisation is just being supported by donors.

Madam Chairperson, one other issue I would like to bring up is the possibility of us starting the Zambia National Service training for school leavers and college graduates. At the moment, our children are just wandering around after their Grade 12 examinations while waiting to go to college and university, which takes two to three years. In between Grade 12 and tertiary education, we should send our children to Zambia National Service so that when they come back from there, they are good citizens of this country.

As of now, all they do while waiting to be admitted to higher education is drink beer, fight and do all sorts of things. Sending them for this training would be a very good programme and I think the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development should consider doing this. We need to start that programme again because it not only ensured that children were not wasting their time but also helped to build their character. By the time they went to university and college, they were mature citizens who really wanted to work for their country.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to debate and I will be very brief. In supporting this Vote, I wish to seriously appeal to this Government to return the Constituency Youth Development Fund and the Youth Empowerment Fund to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: Transferring this money to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund is retrogressive. It is extremely difficult for the youths in our constituencies to access these funds. The previous hon. Minister stated on the Floor of this that his ministry had no capacity to handle these funds and hence had no objection with taking them to the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC).

Madam Chairperson, my appeal to the current hon. Minister is that, if he has no capacity to administer these funds, let this money be channeled through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing where CDF is being administered from. The House will agree with me that CDF has been working so well in our constituencies.

The first time that the Constituency Youth Development Fund was given to our constituencies, we used it so well and youths benefited and were empowered. It is unfortunate that since the transfer of these funds to CEEC, not even one youth from my constituency has benefited. It makes me a very sad hon. Member of Parliament for Roan. My appeal is for these funds to be taken back where they were.

Mr Mbewe: Demonstrate kaiyili.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, it is only in this country that athletics are taken to be activities of running only. Very little emphasis has been put on other field events such as shot-put, discus, javelin and so forth. I am appealing to this ministry to make sure that these field events are brought to light so that our youths can contribute to the development of sport.

Madam Chairperson, in Zambia, we have realised that putting a lot of money in one sport has not been of help. In fact, it is not true that the Zambian football team is doing well. Standards of football have gone down in this country. It only remains in black and white. It is true to say that the football that we used to watch in the late 1980s and early 1990s is not the kind of football that we are watching now. That is why I am appealing to the ministry to make sure that even minor sports are funded adequately. The hon. Member for Katombola has just stated that the netball team brought medals with little or no help from the Government. This should send signals to the Government that if minor sports are funded in this country …

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was wondering as to what has gone wrong in our country and I was saying that the problem is that we have concentrated on sponsoring football as opposed to other minor sports. Unless we change our altitude towards the entire sporting activities, we are not going to see our sportsmen and women win medals for this country.

Madam Chairperson, during the time of Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), they had a programme for sports development. In the mining township of Luanshya where I grew up, ZCCM had a league for all the sporting activities. There was a league for tennis, table tennis, football, badminton and all other minor sports including netball that were funded by ZCC and it also organised inter town competitions.

Madam Chairperson, the privatisation of the mine has therefore, to a large extent, contributed to the falling standards of sports in the country because the major sponsor of sport in Zambia was the mining industry. It is in this vein that I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to compel these mining investors to continue sponsoring sports. We have a situation in this country where big football teams like Nkana Red Devils, Mufulira Wanderers and Nchanga Rangers are playing Second Division football. This is not because there are no players on the Copperbelt, but because there is no sponsorship.

Madam Chairperson, how can you describe a situation where mining industries are giving Nkana Red Devils US$5,000 per month as a sponsorship package? What can a team do with such an insufficient amount of money that they are expected to used throughout the football season to travel to Lusaka, Kabwe and around the Copperbelt? We must find a solution that can compel corporate institutions to support, at least, one kind of sporting activity if Zambia is to improve its standing on the world market in terms of sport.

Madam Chairperson, ZCCM had the under twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and twenty football leagues. From those teams we used to create a pool for the main teams. We had Divisions one, two and three. We also had Copperbelt Amateur and Lusaka Amateur, until we got to the Premier Division. Today in Zambia, children just leave school and go straight into the premiere league. How do you expect the football standards to improve?

On the other hand, the Government must come up with a policy that can revamp the sporting activity in Zambia. We have allowed many of these foreign companies to make money here and yet they sponsor football elsewhere. For instance, Barclays sponsors the English Premier League. In order to promote sports in England, they pump in a lot of money to  and yet it has got branches here in areas like Kalingalinga, but do not spend even one ngwee to support any of the teams in Lusaka. We shall forever continue spending money sponsoring the national team, but will we continue taking fourth and fifth place in tournaments and never first.

Madam Chairperson, if you look at the Southern Region, Zambia was an icon of football. Today, we are even defeated by Tanzania and Swaziland. Therefore, we must ask ourselves what has gone wrong. The answer is simple. We have not invested in sports development. We have not invested at the grass root, but we expect football to be competitive at Premier League, which is merely a stage, and thereafter expect the national team to perform well.

You cannot win as a national team without the contribution of football teams in the rural areas or on the Copperbelt Province.

Madam Chairperson, today, the composition of the national team is mainly of players from Lusaka. I tend to wonder whether, indeed, it is right to call it a national team or Lusaka Select. In order for us to come up with a competitive Zambia National Football Team, we must be able to identify talents in the rural areas and on the Copperbelt. Without investing in our sports and sports facilities, we will not go anywhere.

Madam Chairperson, in Luanshya, there is Luanshya Sports Complex which was used by ZCCM for the sports festivals. If you looked at the facility today, you would cry. You will find the hockey playing field looks like a field of maize. Year in year out, these fields are slashed by way of bush fires. This is very unfortunate. We need the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development to revisit the Luanshya Sports Complex and, if possible, make it fall under the National Sports Council of Zambia so that these facilities are maintained by the Government. They were made and developed by ZCCM, but because we gave these premises to the mining companies that bought the mining assets on the Copperbelt, we have not compelled them to support sports and the facilities on the Copperbelt.

Madam Chairperson, we need to go to the basics and check ourselves as a nation as to why sport in Zambia is performing below par. Look at the Government interference in the running of football. When releasing funds to the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ), the Government should not interfere in the running this association. It must be left to run on its own.  All what the Government should do is provide advice, checks and balances.

Madam Chairperson, unfortunately today, you will find that whenever there are FAZ elections, the Government has got its preferred candidate. If their candidate does not make it, then FAZ gets into constant problems with them. This is retrogressive. Let us be able to accept anybody who is elected by the Football Association Council of Zambia as President of FAZ and give him all the support. If we are going to fail to support these people on the basis of them not being our preferred choice then our standard of football will forever go down.

Madam Chairperson, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to stop embarrassing people at the airport. You sponsor a team to go to CHAN, but before they depart, you select some not to travel because according to you they will be tourists there. By so doing, you embarrassed the people that you gave the responsibility of choosing people to accompany the football team. Certainly FAZ knew the importance of those people, but they ended up being embarrassed by being left at the airport when they had even told their families that they were going to CHAN Championship.

Madam Chairperson, to motivate people for them in order for them to give in their best, in as far as developing sports is concerned, they must be happy people including their families. It is retrogressive for your family to hear that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development dropped you at the airport when your wife was busy the whole night packing for you to go and accompany the national team. These are some of the things that discourage people from belonging to associations and putting in the best that they can.

Madam Chairperson, in any case, it is voluntary to belong to an organisation and you do not get paid anything for it. Therefore, people must be motivated and encouraged other than being disappointed two minutes before the team leaves for an assignment.

With these few words, I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to also debate on this motion on the Floor. It is true and a fact that children are the future leaders of this nation. They are going to be future leaders in various spheres of our areas of development and in every way.

Madam Chairperson, it is true also that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development is doing its part by setting up different centres in order to help children change their attitudes towards life. It is also a fact that there are a number of Non-governmental Organisations (NGOs) that have come to the aid of the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development in order to help these youths find a way of sustaining their own livelihoods as they grow up. It is a fact also that we have the church that has come to the aid of these children. However, what are communities and parents doing about this issue? If you go to Northmead at 2200 hours, you will be surprised to see what goes on there.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: What were you doing there?

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: That is what a leader should do.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: You have to see what happens in the country.

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to raise a point of order on a very senior parliamentarian who is debating almost intelligently. Is the hon. Member for Mulobezi in order to insinuate and not disclose what he was doing with the under age at Northmead around 2200 hours? This is an honourable House. Let him come out clearly. Is he in order to debate insinuations instead of doing so directly? I need your serious ruling, Madam.

The Chairperson: The point of order calls on the hon. Member on the Floor to be forthright and to tell the House about Northmead. He may consider that as he continues.

You may continue.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Chairperson, leadership sometimes demands that you wonder about in order to manage situations. That is exactly what I was doing.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Now, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the most important section of our society which should be able to guide these children apart from the institutions that are headed by the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child and Development is where these youths come from, their homes. How much effort do communities where these youths come from put in to ensure that the attitudes of these youths are acceptable in this modern world so that as they walk along the streets of Lusaka, Kasama and even outside the country, people will respect them by the way they carry themselves? Now, I feel very strongly that parents have a big role to play in order to help Government’s effort.

Now, on the issue of training street children, this is a very good scheme that has been carried out by the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. When the children who were sent for training came back, they should have started using the acquired skills. Again, do we expect the ministry to follow up what these children do? The answer is obviously, no. I think it is important for parents to take care and guide the children because once this is done, even the fight against HIV/AIDS will be very easy to tackle. Of course, some of them become difficult. They do not want to listen to parents and anyone in authority. They do not listen. They think they know it all, but I think it is important to have deliberate initiatives to sensitise both the parents and children. If our children are going to be the future leaders, they must be forthright in their approaches.

Madam Chairperson, yesterday, there was a competition here and one child talked about taking over from adults. It is good for the youths to do that, but I do not think parents are ready to give up to the youths because we think they are not ready to handle such responsibility. They have to prove that they are responsible enough.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the issue of beer drinking by the young ones. This is a big problem that we have among our children. They drink themselves into stupors.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: …especially those, Madam, you will excuse me, who call their beer, Gankata.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: They even pour it on their bodies to prove that they have drunk enough. This is retrogressive because it does not build them at all, but they think that it is a way of life and so it is very difficult to change their lives.

What about their life styles towards sexual activities? They think that it is just a playing matter and do not even know the repercussions of sex such as, diseases and pregnancies. Sometimes they produce and abort unwanted children. Now, I think this is an attitude that needs to be fought for the good.

Madam, I want to thank the hon. Minister for a job well done as far as sports is concerned. In fact, His Excellency the President has invited the Zambia National Team to State House. By doing this, he is encouraging sportsmen to continue doing a good job.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

To start with, I would like to say that I support the vote. In doing so, let me acknowledge what has been said before by Hon. Kambwili that we need a lot of investment if we have to go beyond what we have done. Let us once more invest heavily in football.

In addition, as we invest, we must also win. In the past, we have invested so much, but have lost. Let us invest and win. We have come so near, but so far. Being second or third is not good enough. While I congratulate the national team, I would urge it to do much better by winning the Africa Cup. Being second or third is, in fact, not good at all.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Madam Chairperson, let me also point out that we should look after our coaches well. We should not undermine them. We know what has been going on the past forty-five years. We read in the newspapers recently that the current coach of the national football team had resigned. That was when the team went for training in South Africa. Why? It was because of interference. Key players were sneaked out of the country without his knowledge.

Mr Mubika: Munaile!

Mr Mooya: Madam Chairperson, again, we read in the newspapers that there are certain countries that want to employ our current coach. These include Mali, Ivory Coast and Senegal. I think we should protect him and let him remain here for another term if we are to win any major cup. There is no need to change coaches every now and then. Let us protect and listen to him. We should not undermine him, but give him all the support that he requires.

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about infrastructure development. I am not happy with the slow pace of developing infrastructure, namely the stadiums. A few hours ago, we were talking about the Independence Stadium which has taken four years on the drawing board. The tendering to construction could have been done under two years. However, I cannot see it finishing in the next four years. We are losing a lot of money through delayed implementation of projects.

Madam Chairperson, we should be consistent with our priorities. I remember four years ago, when south Africa won the bid to host the world Cup, the Government said that it would start the construction of a stadium in Livingstone because it is closer to South Africa. That was a priority. The next priority was the Independence Stadium in Lusaka and, finally, Ndola. However, it seems everything has been turned the other way round. The construction has to start with Ndola, Lusaka then Livingstone. I think that Livingstone should have been the first to be considered because of its proximity to South Africa.

Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about the wastefulness of the Government with regard to infrastructure development. Let me repeat what I discussed almost three years ago about the Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium. I think it is sad to abandon such a project after spending so much money on it. Billions of kwacha are under the ground. Tons of concrete stand still and as it is, it is a jungle of concrete. Now, we are burying that wealth. We should have finished that stadium so that we could have two stadiums in Ndola. What is remaining is just the superstructure. The substructure is complete. Let us stop being wasteful.

Madam Chairperson, I also see this wastefulness on the Independence Stadium in Lusaka which is being blamed on the slow tendering process.  Let us do something about it and save money. Zambia has money. We can do wonders with the little that we have if we stopped being wasteful.

With these few words, I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, in supporting the Vote on the Floor, I would like to first and foremost congratulate the national soccer team …

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: … for coming out third in Africa. It is a big achievement. The team which comprises young stars has shown the country their potential. Therefore, we need to support them. The most important thing is to encourage our young boys to be disciplined and focused. We should also discourage them from rushing into professional soccer. This has affected the plans and the development of sport in the country.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to speak on boxing which has become popular. I have been part of this sport for a long time. I was a prominent promoter in the country and most of the boxers who seem to be doing well currently, passed through my boxing stable. I can mention names like the current African champion, Wasacha Chisamba, Douglas Chilembi …

Mr Mubika: Chitika!

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: … Tom “Tiger” Chisanga and Chifumpeni to mention but a few.

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: Madam, professional boxing is a sport that can help decongest the youth on the street in this country, if only we were able to establish enough clubs and engage coaches that would keep our boys and girls busy. Unfortunately, I have noticed with disappointment that it is one sport that has not received adequate financial support. For example, in this year’s budget, we have made mention of Professional Boxing and Wrestling Board. What I know is that these were split some time back as Professional Boxing Board and the Professional Wrestling Board. However, I have noticed from the Yellow Book that we are trying to go back to merge the two. What has been allocated is only K60 million for the running of the two sports in this country.

A lot of us will agree with me that we used to watch wrestling in Zambia a few years ago. 

In addition, as we invest, we must also win. In the past, we have invested so much, but have lost. Let us invest and win. We have come so near, but so far. Being second or third is not good enough. While I congratulate the national team, I would urge it to do much better by winning the Africa Cup. Being second or third is, in fact, not good at all.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Madam Chairperson, let me also point out that we should look after our coaches well. We should not undermine them. We know what has been going on the past forty-five years. We read in the newspapers recently that the current coach of the national football team had resigned. That was when the team went for training in South Africa. Why? It was because of interference. Key players were sneaked out of the country without his knowledge.

Mr Mubika: Munaile!

Mr Mooya: Madam Chairperson, again, we read in the newspapers that there are certain countries that want to employ our current coach. These include Mali, Ivory Coast and Senegal. I think we should protect him and let him remain here for another term if we are to win any major cup. There is no need to change coaches every now and then. Let us protect and listen to him. We should not undermine him, but give him all the support that he requires.

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about infrastructure development. I am not happy with the slow pace of developing infrastructure, namely the stadiums. A few hours ago, we were talking about the Independence Stadium which has taken four years on the drawing board. The tendering to construction could have been done under two years. However, I cannot see it finishing in the next four years. We are losing a lot of money through delayed implementation of projects.

Madam Chairperson, we should be consistent with our priorities. I remember four years ago, when south Africa won the bid to host the world Cup, the Government said that it would start the construction of a stadium in Livingstone because it is closer to South Africa. That was a priority. The next priority was the Independence Stadium in Lusaka and, finally, Ndola. However, it seems everything has been turned the other way round. The construction has to start with Ndola, Lusaka then Livingstone. I think that Livingstone should have been the first to be considered because of its proximity to South Africa.

Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about the wastefulness of the Government with regard to infrastructure development. Let me repeat what I discussed almost three years ago about the Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium. I think it is sad to abandon such a project after spending so much money on it. Billions of kwacha are under the ground. Tons of concrete stand still and as it is, it is a jungle of concrete. Now, we are burying that wealth. We should have finished that stadium so that we could have two stadiums in Ndola. What is remaining is just the superstructure. The substructure is complete. Let us stop being wasteful.

Madam Chairperson, I also see this wastefulness on the Independence Stadium in Lusaka which is being blamed on the slow tendering process.  Let us do something about it and save money. Zambia has money. We can do wonders with the little that we have if we stopped being wasteful.

With these few words, I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, in supporting the Vote on the Floor, I would like to first and foremost congratulate the national soccer team …

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: … for coming out third in Africa. It is a big achievement. The team which comprises young stars has shown the country their potential. Therefore, we need to support them. The most important thing is to encourage our young boys to be disciplined and focused. We should also discourage them from rushing into professional soccer. This has affected the plans and the development of sport in the country.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to speak on boxing which has become popular. I have been part of this sport for a long time. I was a prominent promoter in the country and most of the boxers who seem to be doing well currently, passed through my boxing stable. I can mention names like the current African champion, Wasacha Chisamba, Douglas Chilembi …

Mr Mubika: Chitika!

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: … Tom “Tiger” Chisanga and Chifumpeni to mention but a few.

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: Madam, professional boxing is a sport that can help decongest the youth on the street in this country, if only we were able to establish enough clubs and engage coaches that would keep our boys and girls busy. Unfortunately, I have noticed with disappointment that it is one sport that has not received adequate financial support. For example, in this year’s budget, we have made mention of Professional Boxing and Wrestling Board. What I know is that these were split some time back as Professional Boxing Board and the Professional Wrestling Board. However, I have noticed from the Yellow Book that we are trying to go back to merge the two. What has been allocated is only K60 million for the running of the two sports in this country.

A lot of us will agree with me that we used to watch wrestling in Zambia a few years ago. 

We had wrestlers who were doing very well and did this country proud. Today, we do not have any who are active because the Government has not put in place a policy to develop wrestling and professional boxing in this country.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to raise one concern regarding professional boxing. What we have cannot be termed as professional boxing. It is semi professional. The fact that it is semi makes it difficult for most boxers to turn professional because they are worried that once they do, they will have very few fights. When one becomes a professional in whatever field, it means that their livelihood shall depend on that sport or activity. Therefore, when one person becomes a professional boxer, it means he will depend on fighting throughout the rest of his life.

However, in Zambia, once one turns into a professional boxer, probably, he will only fight once or twice in a period of five years. That is not healthy because that person shall remain a beggar. I am proposing to the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to seriously consider improving boxing in this country because it is very active in the amateur ranks. This is because it is being supported by the National Sports Council. Professional boxing does not fall under the National Sports Council, but under an Act of Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, therefore, the hon. Minister should seriously consider allowing boxers from the defence force clubs to turn professional while maintaining their status quo as soldiers or police officers. This would be their source of income unlike the way the situation is of retiring them when they turn professional. This has denied this sport discipline to tap talent from the boxers who are active. In fact, most of the best boxers that can bring glory to this country are in the defence force clubs because the activity there is very high. This issue needs to be looked at seriously so that we see how we can allow such boxers to get into professional boxing.

Madam, there should also be serious consideration of those who want to become professional boxers. In normal circumstances, a boxer is supposed to prove himself in the amateur ranks. He is supposed to go to the Commonwealth like Loti Mwale and Chisanda Muti. When they come back from the Commonwealth, there would be no need for these boxers to continue in the amateur ranks. Only then can they move into professional ranks, unlike what is happening now. Today, as long as a boxer has been a street fighter for sometime, he can turn professional. There are situations where certain boxers are holding on to national titles without a boxing history. That is very dangerous because this sport is a full contact game. It is a game where punches are exchanged. Those punches really mean business. They are not cheap punches at all and once they land on your head or body, definitely, they leave a very big impact.

Dr Katema: Vincent, watch out!

Mr Mwenya: Therefore, it is very important that we look at the history of all those who want to turn professional and ensure that they are genuine boxers, who are tough-tested, have been in the sport for some time and would not bring embarrassment upon us. I expect the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to look at that. I am quite concerned about certain fights that are about to be promoted because very soon, we shall have disasters or accidents in our boxing rings if we are not careful.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to comment on the issue of medicals. This has been a problem because the ministry has not taken interest in what is happening in the professional boxing board. I do not remember the last time a professional boxing board was instituted. As we are speaking, the people who are running professional boxing in the country are doing it illegally. Whoever is approving fighting contracts or sanctioning these title fights is doing it illegally. As far as I know, the hon. Minister has not yet appointed the board and it has taken over five years of not putting a boxing board in place, which is very unfortunate.

Madam Chairperson, once again, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to put the professional boxing house in order and not leave it in the state in which it is. I have said that boxing is a full contact game and we have seen that there is a lot of bleeding. Therefore, the boxing board needs to identify a doctor who is supposed to be registered with the professional boxing board and will examine all boxers who want to fight. It is only the doctor who can allow a boxer to fight. Most of our boxers have ended up coming with false medical reports claiming that they have been examined and are allowed to fight. In boxing, there are injuries that are sustained. These do not only affect the brain, but also the kidneys through the punches that one receives. Therefore, there is need for proper examination before boxers are allowed to go into the ring and this needs to be looked into.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to remind the hon. Minister that professional boxing is the only sport where board members are appointed by the hon. Minister. I have spoken about this issue on several occasions. I told Mr Nakachinda, when he was secretary of the boxing board, that we needed to change this system because it was archaic. Board members need to be elected. We need people who have the passion for the sport to sit on that board. We need people that shall be accountable to the people that will elect them to run the affairs of professional boxing on their behalf. It is only then shall we be able to see the sport gain its old status.

Finally, I would like to raise another issue that I have noticed in the Yellow Book. The budget allocation for stadium infrastructure development is inadequate. I have seen a figure of K6,700,000.00, but  I do not know how that can be used to support stadium infrastructure development.

Madam Chairperson, in our country, we need to make sure that we are able to rehabilitate most of these stadia such as Nkana Stadium, Mufulira Stadium and Chingola Stadium.  In most of the stadia that we have on the Copperbelt, we have boxing clubs but unfortunately, these have not been recognised by the state or rather, by the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. We expect this ministry to consider financing sport unlike the way it is been shown in the Yellow Book that we seem not to be concerned about development of sport. We have shown that not only in soccer but even in other sporting activities by indicating very little figures in the Yellow Book. This is total mockery to the youths that intend to develop this country.

Madam, I can assure you that if the Government is serious, focused and pumps in more money towards youth development and especially sport, you will discover that sporting activities will bring a lot of revenue to this country. We have seen countries like Brazil making so much foreign exchange out of exporting players to play in the European League. The amount of money that is involved in sport such as football and boxing is so colossal that it can surpass some of the exports that we are so much concentrating on.

Madam Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the vote that I have extreme passion on because I am a sports person.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, the Government on your right side has no clear policy on how to improve sport in this country. This Government today, must seriously take heed of how to transform a disorganised national level of sports management.

Madam Chairperson, I was a Chairperson of a Committee on Sport and I went all round the country for two terms. Therefore, I can speak with this authority. I would like to say that good leadership provides that you lead by example. Dr Kaunda used a golf course which is at State House, but this Government has abandoned it. The golf course was used by the executive in order to relax as well as a sport. Ever since 1991, maize has been grown on the golf course. You cannot do that. The animals that were part of the scenic of any given Golf Club have almost disappeared.

Madam, the moment leadership starts inviting third class performers to dinner; you will have done the nation nothing more than disgrace. You cannot give dinner to third class performers in Africa. Instead, you should tell them to reorganise themselves. There is something seriously wrong with our national sport management and that is, there is no clear policy. The new hon. Minister should take heed of this advice. You should sit down with properly organised associations. This Government has politicised sport. They have taken politics first instead of looking at sport as an industry which is alternative to copper mining. You will no longer rely on copper. Copper stocks are depleting. There is organised confusion in copper mining. You will never get any good dividends from copper. The so called investors are the ones that do not even know how to mine it because they have no skilled man power, hence they are blaming you. Otherwise, there is plenty of Copper.

Madam Chairperson, if State House went through a good reorganisation and allowed the Golf Club to function, that would be a good example for the rest of the sport fraternities to follow. Consequently, they will evolve naturally. Associations such as FAZ and many more have gone tribal. There is no way you can only find names like Mulenga, Bwalya and Chanda on the national team. Are you telling me that you cannot find a player by the name of Muyanda in Sinazongwe?

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Are you telling me that in Sesheke, you cannot find a football player by the name of Mubita. Where are the Kalimukwas of yesterday? The reason behind this is because FAZ has been politicised. Let us stop the issue of tribalism. All tribes can play football.

Madam, talent identification in rural areas does not require a lot of money. The onus is on the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, through their representatives in the districts, to come up with a national team with representatives from all the nine provinces. We want the national team to depict a balanced national colour. If we do this, Zambia will be taking first place in competitions like the way Nigeria is performing. It is a disgrace to see that Congo, a state which is war-torn and has seen its infrastructure go through severe destruction, can manage to beat Zambia, a country that can produce a balanced picture of a national colour.

Hon. Government Member: It is juju!

Mr Muyanda: What juju are you talking about? There is no juju. It is a question of good organisation.

Madam Chairperson: Order! Continue debating and do not listen to those that are heckling.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam Chairperson, let us think comparatively where management is concerned and then debate. Compare data by annalysing how well you performed in a previous year to the succeeding year. You also look at the factors that led to failure or success. Kenya is a shining star because of its athletes. These athletes follow through a clean, good and effective management. With good organisation, planning and commitment to the national outright, the nation will produce good runners and good boxers. Zambia has abundant untapped talents.

Madam Chairperson, my recommendation to the hon. Minister is that there should be reorganisation in all the associations. You have no control over FAZ, but you have the sphere of influence. All the internal organisations must be reorganised. After dissolving them all, you should make it a point that you get committed administrators and not money takers. You have associations that make huge sums of money through fundraising ventures. Do you know where the money goes? These organisations are never even audited. The money goes into the pockets. That is politicising and authorising public thefts.

Madam Chairperson, in our previous report, we clearly advised the hon. Minister to dissolve many of these organisations. They are a shame to this country and so far, we are waiting to see the action taken after the report.

Madam Chairperson, what is left, once again, for this Government, If Zambia is to tick, is to ensure well organised golf in society. This will call for a group of business men who do not have a lot of money, but have the interest. Do not have the misconception that golf is for rich people, no. I was a captain for two years of that society.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, all these Madalisos you hear about going to America passed through these hands.

Hon. Members: Hmmn!

Mr Muyanda: Yes, we had a junior team, which is still going on and they were junior players. Currently, we have Melissa Nawa. There is a well organised …

Hon. Opposition Member: A Bemba!

Mr Muyanda:  She is not Bemba. She is a balanced version of all Zambians. We make national colour at the golf club. It is not like other organisations.

The Chairperson: Order! Speak.

You may continue.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your good guidance.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, the golfing society in this country is a shining example with very minimal Government funding. It has produced talented golfers because there is good organisation, planning and commitment by the administrators of the society. They do not go to the Lusaka, Chilanga and Livingstone golf clubs to make money. However, this Government has tolerated thieves in associations, which is not right.

The Chairperson: Order! That is a very serious allegation. You may speak properly honourable.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for guiding me well. They are not thieves. They do other things.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: They are money takers on the pretext that they are fundraisers. Watch them from now onwards. With this amount, we shall vote for you. If you do not dissolve these associations we will be made to believe that you have taken a keen interest in seeing organised confusion and not development.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chipungu: Madam Chairperson, I would like to begin by thanking all the hon. Members who have ably debated on the Vote for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. We have taken note of the concerns raised so far.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to get to the specifics and to agree with Hon. Musokotwane, who has so much passion for netball, that we need more money. When funds are made available, there is no reason why we should not consider allocating more funds, not only to the Netball Association, but to all associations. I would like to add that equally, the Netball Association is free to fundraise.

Madam Chairperson, other associations have other means of fundraising. The disappointing issue with the Netball Association is that more women are turning to football, despite the incentives that the Government is giving to all the associations. I, therefore would like to ask the hon. Members, especially, Hon. Musokotwane to help us so that the women can come back to netball.

Madam Chairperson, this good and listening Government, under the leadership of His Excellency, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, will indeed honour any sports man or woman who brings glory to this nation, like we did with Esther Phiri. I would like to thank the hon. Member for acknowledging this.

Madam Chairperson, the construction of the Kazungula Skills Training Center is going on well. I recently visited this centre, some time last week, and I was told that within a week, construction would be completed. I am yet to go back and find out how far they have gone. Nevertheless, I was very impressed when I visited.

Madam Chairperson, we are thinking about bringing back the Zambia National Service (ZNS) training after Grade twelve. Indeed, it was a very good venture. I am sure that the hon. Members who went through the training are mature and very disciplined.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Madam Chairperson, we have taken note of Hon. Kambwili’s suggestions to bring back the Constituency Youth Development Fund as well as the Youth Empowerment Fund.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: However, I would like to say that it is not true that my ministry or, indeed, this Government is supporting only football. It is not true. The only problem is that football has a great following. Therefore, it is like we also go where the wind is blowing. Imagine what would have happened if we had not supported our national team to go to Ivory Coast. A lot of people would have called us all sorts of names. The policy of this ministry is to support all sport disciplines.

Madam Chairperson, in this vein, I am aware that sports standards have gone down and the reasons are very clear. Some people are citing economic problems. However, on the part of my ministry, I want to assure this House that the step that we are taking is to strengthen the National Sports Council of Zambia. On 28th March, 2009, the council will hold their Annual General Meeting (AGM), and subsequently, elections. The hon. Minister will appoint the usual six. We are looking forward to have credible men and women to help us improve sports in this country.

Further, we are looking at men and women that will turn National Sports Council of Zambia into an economic giant, an institution that will be able to generate funds. Of course, the Government is there to give grants, but we want a bigger chunk of their money to be generated through their own means, and indeed, through the co-operating partners. I am sure that this Government has launched the Public Private Partnerships (PPP), which we are all aware of and sport cannot be an exemption. We want the PPP to extend to sport disciplines.

Madam Chairperson, I would, therefore, like to appeal to parastatals, private and mining companies to help revive sports in this country. The revival of sports cannot be left to the Government alone.  All the companies I mentioned, including the hon. Members of Parliament should be able to participate.

The Talent Identification Programme (TIP) we are talking about is not only found in my office, it is found in all constituencies. It is, therefore upon you my dear colleagues to participate in it. In the case of football, who comes to collect the footballs from my office? A number of you have come and those that are saying “aah!” are those that have probably never come through for whatever reason. Those footballs are intended for TIP.
 
Madam Chairperson, I agree with Hon. Kambwili that we need a national team, which Hon. Muyanda alluded to. However, before a team is really national, the whole country must be represented. Personally, I thought that it is more of midlands and Copperbelt. However, Hon. Kambwili disputed that fact and said most of the players come from Lusaka. Wherever they come from, if we carry out the TIP properly, we will definitely attract good players from all provinces of this nation.

Madam Chairperson, when you look at community football players, you would even think that perhaps it is the national team playing. They play so well that if we took keen interest in TIP, we could easily bring on board so many players that can be incorporated into the national team.

Madam, I want to refute Hon. Kambwili’s sentiment on my ministry dropping somebody at the airport. Again, this is kachepa coming back to Parliament because nobody was dropped at the airport.

Madam, sending a national team outside the country is not entirely the Government’s responsibility. While we assist the national team, FAZ must also have some money to carry out certain activities because we are both faced with financial constraints. What happened on that material date is that they came with a list of thirty-two if not thirty-three names. We asked them to justify the number because they were trying to carry people like the communications officer and the assistant team leader. We told them we could not afford to sponsor such a number because we only had K900 million. We told them that if they wanted to travel with these officials, whom we thought there was need to, then, they had to find money for them and buy their tickets. If FAZ failed to do so, they should not put the blame on me.

Madam Chairperson, the suggestion which I want to put forward is that if you are informed and fed with lies, it is better to establish the truth by either coming to me or my office.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Mabenga, ‘Chairman’, who has passion for children.

 Hon. Opposition Members: He has no passion.

Mr Chipungu: Madam Chairperson, all debates from all hon. Members of Parliament in this House were centered on sports. Only one person spoke about children and the youths and I want to say thank you very much to my leader, ‘Chairman’, because…

The Chairperson: Order! Address him according to his title here.

Mr Chipungu: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. In my statement, I mentioned that my ministry is responsible for youth and children, but nobody speaks about them.

Madam Chairperson, if allowed, we were saying we may have to even re-visit the name of this ministry so that perhaps it becomes “Ministry of Child Affairs, Youth and Sport” because children are born and grow into youths who play football. Maybe, that way, I will encourage hon. Members of Parliament to debate seriously on the issues affecting the children and the youths, which are indeed worrying this nation. Once again, I want to thank Hon. Mabenga. It is true that we need to do much more as parents. How do children dress? Can you allow your own child to move out of the house half naked? We should also know what time they come home before you expect us as ministry to do something. I think we need to do something as parents. I therefore, agree with you, Hon. Mabenga.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Mooya. In thanking him, I want to repeat what I said about Government supporting all the institutions including FAZ. I also want to encourage private partners to come in and support all sports including football. I want to agree with you, Hon. Mooya that the infrastructure development is very slow. We have said that this, time and again, and we are working frantically to ensure that the Independence Stadium is renovated for the 2010 World Cup. The Maramba Stadium is also going to be renovated. We are all aware that this stadium is situated in a tourist capital and it is also near to South Africa. Therefore, it makes sense for it to be renovated.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Mwenya, for his contribution. He is a gentleman who has got passion for boxing. I want to commend you for what you have done for this country. I am sure the Almighty God will bless you. I want you hon. Member to continue with the good work. Please, keep it up. Having said that, I would like to invite you to my office so that we can discuss the way forward because you seem to have ideas, dear brother. We are calling for a meeting, which will look at wrestling as sport because this has equally come to our attention. This ministry will not ignore any sport at all.

Finally, let me talk about the appointment of the boxing board. I want to tell Hon. Musenge that the names have already been submitted. Therefore, if you have got some names that you think could be on this board, please do not hesitate to bring them to my attention.

Madam Chairperson, as a ministry, we have very little resources and this is what I can allude to as, perhaps, the cause of the very small amounts of money allocated various to sports. If we had more money, we would have, like wise, given these sport associations much more or accordingly. You should understand the financial constraints that the ministry is going through.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Muyanda for his contribution, but it is not true to say that we have no vision and policy to improve sport in this country. I have mentioned that, first things first, we want to strengthen the National Sport Council of Zambia. I think that is the entry point. Once we do that, everything else will follow. You also mentioned the state of the State House Golf Course. We have listened and we will look into that.

Madam Chairperson, I want to correct your impression that the dinner at State House is being hosted for the National Team. No! It is not true. Perhaps it is just a coincidence.

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair has been told several times what she thinks and has had her impression corrected. However, you will correct the impression of the hon. Member and not of the Chair.

May the hon. Minister please continue.

Laughter

Mr Chipungu: Madam Chairperson. I would like to thank you for that guidance. I want to correct the impression of the hon. Member that the dinner tonight, hosted by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda at State House, is for the National Team. This is far from it. If anything, it has been a coincidence.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Chipungu: We have a number of men and women who have brought glory to this nation. The list is endless and I will not be reading it here. Those are the ones we have been thinking of hosting dinner for. The fact that the team has also made very tremendous progress, we have found it very necessary to host dinner in honour of all sports men and women.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

 Madam Chairperson, I thank you,

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/03 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Youth Affairs – K6,270,590,295).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 10, Activity 11 – Construction of Kazungula Youth Resource Centre – Kazungula District. There is no money allocated to this Vote. What is going on?

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Madam Chairperson, the reason is that we had allocated money to it and the progress is on.

I thank you, Madam.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: But there is no money!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has said the money was allocated, but there is no money indicated here. Can she show us the page where it is maybe we could have missed it because the Yellow Book is too big?

Laughter

Ms Cifire: Madam Chairperson, I meant that money was allocated in the last one and not this one and the progress is on.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: What do you mean by, “in the last one and not in this one?”

Interruption

Hon. Member: There is K200 million!

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, in this year’s Budget, there is a programme going on in Kazungula and there is need to continue funding it. In his opening remarks, the hon. Minister mentioned that Kazungula is being supported, but there is no money for this project in this particular Budget. How are you going to continue with the project?

Interruptions

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Madam Speaker, it simply means that there is no money due to financial constraints. However, the Youth Resource Centre block is being constructed using last’s years funding.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms Cifire: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/04 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Child Affairs Department – K4,253,115,434).

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, I have two questions, but I will start with one. May I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 02 – Establishment of the Zambia Council for the Child – K30,598,000. The hon. Minister stated that they established the Zambia Council for the Child this year. However, when you look at the provision, there is only K30,598,000 provided. My question is, surely, will this be realised?

Ms Cifire: Madam Chairperson, that provision is due to budget constraints. The programme will continue in the next year’s budget.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I sympathise with the ministry, especially when I look at the figures. However, on Programme 7 – Child Development Advocacy – K260,740,000, I note that the issue of violence against children …

Madam Chairperson: Mrs Masebo, what page are you referring to?

Mrs Masebo: It is on page710, Vote 76/04 – Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Child Affairs Department. May I seek clarification on Programme 7 – Child Development Advocacy – K260,740,000. Last year we had K661,507,598 towards this programme, but this year’s allocation has been slashed to K260,740,000.  Programme 7, Activity 01 – Awareness Creation on Sexual and Gender Based Violence – K14,840,000, this allocation has been reduced from K131,900,000 to K14,840,000. Child Affairs Department is the most important department of the ministry, now, should we be considering these figures as a serious House?

Ms Cifire: Madam Chairperson, unfortunately, the decrease is due to budget constraints.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sing’ombe: Bakwete fye answer imo!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, on the same issue that Hon. Masebo has raised, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Awareness Creation on Sexual and Gender Based Violence – K14,840,000, may I seek clarification from the hon. Minister what will be involved considering this very little money, especially towards gender based violence?

Ms Cifire: Madam Chairperson, it is mainly on awareness.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Vote 76/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs - K245,496,685,366).

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Madam Chairperson, from the outset I wish to take this opportunity to wish you and hon. Members of this august House a happy and productive 2009. I thank you all for allowing me to present the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Madam Chairperson, 2009 presents great challenges to our country, as a whole, and my ministry in particular. These challenges have arisen following the global economic crisis, but this however should not hinder us from achieving our intended objectives and goals as stated in our Fifth National Development Plan and the vision 2030.

Madam Chairperson, in spite of the challenges, I pledge my ministry’s unwavering commitment to meeting our obligations in contributing towards Zambia’s advancement. My ministry’s core responsibility is to foster and maintain healthy relations with the international community for the benefit of Zambia, her people and above all to safeguard our interests. In pursuit of this responsibility, my ministry scored a number of successes and faced several challenges in 2008.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to highlight some of these successes. Zambia participated in the first Africa/India Partnerships Summit held in New Delhi India. Arising from this summit, Zambia will have access to a number of initiatives which include a line of credit for the whole of Africa of US$5.4 billion over the next five years. A US$500 million dollar grant for railway information technology, human resource development and capacity development projects, among others. I, therefore wish to urge all stakeholders to institute all necessary efforts to access these funds.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry was involved in the preparations for and Zambia’s participation at the Tokyo International Conference on African Development (TICAD) IV Summit which took place in Yokohama Japan in May, 2008. TICAD is a Japanese initiative designed to encourage ownership by African countries of their own development processes with international partners playing a supportive role. TICAD particularly works to develop regional initiatives such as New Partnerships for Africa’s Development (NEPAD). In the same vein, my ministry intensified its efforts to revive the Zambia New Partnerships for Africa’s Development action plan by holding consultative meetings with all key stakeholders updating the Zambian-NEPAD action plan and finalising the draft structure for the Zambia-NEPAD.

Madam Chairperson, in 2008, Zambia participated in three United Nations (UN) high level meetings on Africa’s development needs, the Millennium Development Goals( MDGs) and the ALMATY programme of action. The meeting on Africa’s development needs resolved that there was need to increase the official development assistance to the levels of commitments undertaken in the Monterrey consensus; ensure peace and security in Africa by ending the endemic conflicts, respecting human rights, eliminating social inequalities, consolidating the rule of law, ensuring political reforms and improving governance and enhance institutional capacity, human resource development, agriculture, trade and investment, education, health, water and sanitation.

Madam Chairperson, the MDGs meeting evaluated the progress and challenges in attaining the goals. This meeting launched two initiatives, namely the Global Campaign to reduce malaria deaths to near zero by 2015, with an initial commitment of US$3 billion and the task force on maternal mortality.

Their third meeting was the midterm review of the ALMATY programme of action. The programme outlines a set of priorities for action in transit policy issues, infrastructure development and maintenance, international trade, trade facilitation and international support measures. The meeting agreed that landlocked and least developed landlocked countries expand and increase their narrow export base as well as access to the major international markets for their products.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry vigorously campaigned and succeeded in getting Zambia re-elected for a second and final term of office in the United Nations Human Rights Council which is a re-affirmation of the confidence that the international community has in Zambia’s human rights record.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia in 2008, continued to play an active role in regional affairs as chair of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) through the hosting of the SADC Extraordinary Summit in April, which was convened to discuss the situation in Zimbabwe. To this effect, Zambia continues to support regional efforts on the current situation in Zimbabwe under the inclusive Government established on 13th February, 2009.

Madam Chairperson, the state visit to Madagascar in February which resulted in the signing of the general co-operation and the joint permanent commission agreements between Zambia and that country aimed at enhancing co-operation in areas such as agriculture, trade, and tourism, to mention but a few.

An official visit to Botswana in March, 2008, during which the construction of the Kazungula Bridge and the agreement on the establishment of the Zambezi Water Course Commission (ZAMCOM) were discussed, His Excellency the late President Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC as SADC Chair, also undertook an official tour of the SADC Secretariat and the site for the new DADC Headquarters.

Madam Chairperson, the objective of the participation in the consultative conference on poverty and development in Mauritius was to create a platform for policy engagement with stakeholders on strengthening member states and the regions efforts towards poverty reduction as a way of meeting targets for the MDGs

The SADC Summit which I attended as special representative of the late president in august last year launched the SADC Free Trade Area (FTA). This was a milestone in the regional economic integration agenda. It was at this summit that Zambia handed over chairmanship of SADC to South Africa. In December 2008, Zambia participated in the summit on the Burundi Peace Process, which helped to resolve some of the issues delaying the implementation of the peace agreement between the Government of Burundi and the rebel leader.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia also attended a tripartite summit involving the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA), East African Community (EAC) and SADC held in Kampala, Uganda. The summit was necessitated by the need to streamline and harmonise programmes and projects of the three regional economic communities. The summit agreed to establish a COMESA-EAC-SADC Free Trade Area and Customs Union. The summit also agreed on the facilitation of movement of business persons, the development of joint programmes, financing of infrastructure development, and establishment of a formal legal and institutional framework.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia played a significant role in the conclusion of a groundbreaking international humanitarian treaty which effectively bans cluster munitions. Zambia was unanimously elected as Africa’s co-ordinator at a meeting held in Livingstone by African countries, which met to discuss the issue. The outcome of the meeting was the Livingstone declaration, which signalled Africa’s strong opposition to cluster munitions. Zambia’s role in the process raised her international profile and it is expected that she will be required to continue in advocating for more countries to implement this new convention.

Madam Chairperson, in a similar development, I wish to report that my ministry commenced a nation-wide impact survey to establish the extent of contamination of landmines and explosive remnants of war (ERW) with a view of clearing all known contaminated areas by 2011 as required by the convention. The survey report is expected to be finalised by the end of June this year. Further, Zambia was elected co-chair to the standing committee on stockpile destruction of the anti-personnel mine ban treaty.

Madam Chairperson, as we look into the activities for 2009, I wish to underscore that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is the first point of contact with the international community. Therefore, it is important to take into cognisance that the ministry is the window through which Zambia interacts with the rest of the world. This interaction forms part of the basis on which Zambia engages in socio-economic activities that contribute to the overall development of the country.

In this regard, effectively promote and protect Zambia’s interest and to maintain good international relations that will contribute to sustainable development. My ministry will focus on the following key issues this year:

(i) Attending international meetings such as the United Nationals General Assembly, African Union, Non-Aligned Movement, Commonwealth Heads of State and Government, SADC  and COMESA;

(ii) Zambia will continue to participate in matters of peace and security through the afore mentioned organisations;

(iii) we will be undertaking public diplomacy activities aimed at engaging and informing the general public and other stakeholders on the ministry’s operations;

(iv) we will involve in the creation of SADC/NEPAD unit, which will effectively implement and monitor SADC and NEPAD activities;

(v) facilitation of Zambia’s active membership and representation in international organisations and bodies;

(vi) attending Joint Permanent Commissions of Co-operations (JPCC) with other countries as well as other bilateral engagements;

(vii) establishment of the great lakes regional centre for the promotion of democracy, good governance, human rights and civic education;

(viii) commencement of clearance of landmines and ERW in areas identified under the impact survey;

(ix) ratification of the convention and continue with co-ordination efforts on the cluster munitions process;

(x) operationalisation of the chemical weapons convention;

(xi) continuation of rehabilitation works of the dilapidated Zambian Mission properties abroad; and

(xii) facilitation of the smooth operation and expansion of the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies.

Madam Chair, my ministry’s budget has been tailored according to the size of the cloth available. Notwithstanding this, we accept to meet the agreed objectives for the year 2009.

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by expressing my ministry’s sincere appreciation to the hon. Members of Parliament, line ministries and other institutions which have given us support and contributed to the successful implementation of its programmes. To all of you, I say please continue.

Madam Chairperson, last year, a number of audit queries were brought out and I wish to state that my ministry has made some corrective measures which have been put in place. Some recoveries have been made, some people have been reprimanded, deductions have been made and we will continue with the exercise.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to reaffirm my ministry’s commitment to using the financial resources prudently and hereby appeal to this august House to support my budget estimates for the year, 2009.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Chair, I want to quote the hon. Minister, but in the correct context, “cutting or making a suit according to the cloth.” That is an admission and he is being a perfect diplomat by saying that the money available may not be sufficient, but he is going to do his best in his ministry.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is the mirror which reflects the international community’s view of this country. If you are not able to pay your bills and for some reason those that ought to attend technical meetings that require the ministerial headquarters are not able to do so, it means our face out there which has been outstanding since 1964, would be failing at a time when we have probably the best Ministers, full of humility and kindness and a President, who is a diplomat by upbringing and training. That will be a sad situation. More so, when we have a Chief Whip, who is an accomplished diplomat, I think that can be a disaster. We will take the Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane and Vice-President by their own word, words which they said on this Floor and nobody forced them to. Although, some of us are uncomfortable about that kind of promise. They promised to consider all ministries that require, out of necessity, supplementary budgets. In my understanding that statement was, particularly, meant for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Madam Chairperson, in moving forward, to be sent abroad or to travel on a mission or to live in a foreign country is not enjoyment, though some of our colleagues believe it is. It is a serious assignment to represent your country away from your family and friends. What is so enjoyable about that?

Dr Musokotwane was smiling.

Mr Matongo: I support this vote which has been cut and I have noticed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning smiling extremely well. So, I think he is agreeing with us that the shortfall of nearly K2 billion from this ministry will take him on in November at supplementation. This is because this ministry needs to get funding and should be well done. There are also other people who believe that missions should be cut. That is inappropriate thinking. How do you expect Zambia, which is a landlocked country and whose 30 per cent of the budget is dependent on the international community, to cut her missions and yet, you sit here and go to Shang’ombo to cry and think they will bring you money. You need somebody to leave his comfortable home here to go and speak in Washington, Brussels, Tokyo, Addis Ababa and Ottawa. I hope that all those that you send as diplomats have outstanding credentials and not political failures. Leave the political failures to be with us here so that we teach them how to win elections.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Matongo, address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, do not send them on foreign mission. I hope you will help us on that one. These I have mentioned are economic missions that the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, Ministry of Finance and National Planning and all the economic ministries depend on. We should not pretend that we do not need help. We need help for this country. However, to send a diplomat from Hamakowa, my village where we have accomplished people, and send him/her to Washington or London, and tell us that he/she is longer with us because he was dismissed at a press conference when the President was addressing the youths. That is not what we are interested in. We are interested in standing on principle of the country.

Therefore, Madam Chairperson, I really want to appeal as I understand in totality the need for the Minister of Finance and National Planning and the Vice-President to adjust these budgets which have turned to be flexible this year to move forward.

Madam Chairperson, you can send anybody you like …

Hon. Opposition Member: Anything.

Mr Matongo: … to any country you choose, but as I understand it, there are what are known as economic missions which I have described. There are also good neighbourliness missions and there are those that we need to develop because they are potential or are helpers in our economic development. The Minister of Foreign Affairs has an ostensible, please quote me correct, authority like any other cabinet Minister to be able to advise the President when he is under pressure. So many people want to be sent on missions abroad even when they do not have qualifications just because they want to go and make a living, but this is when the hon. Minister can exercise his ostensible authority and say to Mr President that, “I, your cadres and the Vice President are saying that such a person cannot be sent for this mission as a representative because he is a party failure.” We could do the same in UPND, if we were in Government. We could certainly send taka takas to some countries …

Madam Chairperson: Order! What is taka, taka?

Mr Matongo: Yes, inordinate …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … human beings or countries.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1805 hours until 1830 hours.

[MADAM CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just pointing out that appointments in the Foreign Service should not only be for the sake of giving jobs, but be based on capacity of our diplomats to be representatives of our country. As we understand it, the Public Service is the same except in foreign affairs there should be people that have been trained, worked for foreign affairs, changed missions and rose to higher heights.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say that while the President can appoint former hon. Ministers who have failed elections to missions abroad, this should not necessarily make the work of the ministry, whose controlling officer is a humble civil servant, difficult by appointing people who are too powerful and may actually do very little in their missions abroad. The President should never on a light-hearted note appoint people to the foreign service like the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Obama there because as you can see, they prefer …

The Chairperson: We do not know who Obama is in this House.

Mr Matongo: Madam, well, Barack Obama is the President of the United States. However, I was trying to say that we need people that are acceptably presentable, polite and straightforward, like the hon. Minister for Western Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Madam, you see, since we have a shortage of jobs, I know because I have been around that all the Presidents that have served this country have been under pressure to create job opportunities in foreign missions. However, the fact that this Parliament approved a foreign affairs policy, it must be implemented. I agree that the President has certain people that he needs to send somewhere to other places, but if those people do not have the skills the hon. Minister and his people may advise, if they have the courage to do so, they should be sent to places where we would not be embarrassed as a country.

Madam, I am an advocate of international representation of this country throughout the world and I know some people are saying that we are wasting money. There is no wastage of money in things like international representation for we belong to all international organisations that the hon. Minister mentioned this afternoon. I am very pleased that in this budget he will be able to send his best men and women to represent this country to those international meetings. However, where he may have difficulties, perhaps he will rely on the few embassies that are headed by informed people to represent us. This is just an appeal. I know that all men are equal, but others are more equal than others.

Madam, let me move on to something else. In these missions abroad, we have education, information and trade attachés. Now, I want to state this clearly and courageously that the image of this country is not based on what is written in the newspapers today. It requires our people heading information departments abroad to put it in the correct perspective so that the world knows that people who were champions of corruption yesterday are today being vilified as the corrupt. I think such dramatic turns in diplomatic language are not correct. If we have differences with certain media organisations or certain prosecutors who were heroes yesterday, let us find means of how we can engage and move forward. Most Zambians are not pleased …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Matongo: I am talking about information officers abroad.

The Chairperson: Order! You are responding even before the Chair guides. The Chair is aware that you are talking about information, but let us look at local issues as a different situation. You may put it in the right perspective so that it is understood well.

Mr Matongo: Madam, I am very clear on that. We need to find means of working together despite our differences. Why is there so much animosity between the private media and us in governance? Why is there so much …

Hon. Government Member: It is because of politics.

Mr Matongo: … animosity, other than politics, between those in Government and the prosecutors that have been handling the cases of corruption?

The Chairperson: Order! I still do not see how foreign affairs have anything to do with prosecution locally. Can you move on and state how you want Zambia to be seen internationally.

Mr Matongo: I would like to urge the officers in this ministry to ensure that the domestic quarrels that we are seeing today are put in the correct perspective to the rest of the world. This is for the simple reason that we need those who drove this country in getting certain people prosecuted to remain in the fight against corruption. That is the message I am delivering.

Madam Chairperson, finally, I would like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to take note of the fact that we receive messages from outside on the way we are being perceived as a country. We are now moving away from being seen as a country that is strong in economic development, macro-economic paradigm, anti-corruption, freedom of speech and so many other areas. I urge the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to restate that position because it gave us a very good global reputation. You understand what I mean (looking at hon. Government Members) and I am clear …

The Chairperson: Address them through the Chair, Mr Matongo.

Mr Matongo: I also want those who believe that this is an opportunity to change the international perspective of our country, which was well articulated by the late President Mwanawasa, to take advantage of the new President and help to do so. We must understand that the Zambian people are determined to have their image well cleared through foreign affairs. Those who for some reason think that some of their brothers and those of us in Government are on the receiving end should reconcile with us.

Madam Chairperson, the people clearly want a corrupt free Republic of Zambia and I make no apologies for saying so. I defend those in the media, courts and prosecution that are in this noble cause. Trying to make enemies with them now is to try and make enemies with our donors. We should learn to solve our internal problems here at home. My message to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is that it should be careful when it interprets these misconceptions and that the Zambian people are clear on what they want.

Madam, in conclusion, I would like to urge the ministry to strengthen the training of diplomats. Even when former Vice-Presidents are appointed to foreign service, they must be sent to the Zambia Institute of Diplomatic Studies to learn the etiquette of diplomacy and delivery of service.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members of the Committee, as we continue debating, look at the amount of work before us. Make your points, if you can, within less than the fifteen minutes allocated. You do not have to spend the entire time allotted making repetitions of points stated before. You can even make the points in a minute.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, in supporting this vote, let me begin by expressing a worry on the budget.

Madam Chairperson, in the year 2008, a budget allocation of K197 billion was given to this ministry. This year, there is an increase to K245 billion. On the face of it, this looks very good. However, what must be understood is that much of the expenses of this ministry are in foreign currency and with what has been happening to the Kwacha recently, it means this budget is really inadequate. I think both the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Foreign Affairs should be aware of this. Unless the Kwacha strengthens, the budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in fact, is going to balloon up much more than it is.

Madam Chairperson, having said that, I think we, as a human race, inhabit the earth and with all the seven continents, the seas and the separate countries we live in and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is our contact to other countries. It is our lobbyist and our public relations unit that should contribute to attracting investment, trade and source of our markets for goods. It should also contribute to security by encouraging co-operation and signing agreements with those countries with whom we have common interests which could be economic, political, social and so on and forth.

Madam Chairperson, there is reciprocity in foreign relations and respect for each other. Unfortunately, more recently, the poor countries in the world tend to become what are known as ‘Banana’ Republics. Owing to the aid they receive, they are made to accept or agree to things that are not really acceptable under the normal way of doing business in international relations. For this reason, we find that in some poor countries, diplomats from foreign countries begin commenting on issues they are not supposed to comment on.

Madam Chairperson, I cannot imagine the Zambian ambassador in Washington or London to begin talking about private matters going on among various individuals or even talking about court cases and condemning or supporting them. That is totally unacceptable. We do have people who are extremely experienced in foreign affairs here for instance, Hon. V. J. Mwaanga who is one of the most experienced diplomats and I am sure he will agree with what I am saying.

Mr Mwaanga showed assent.

Dr Machungwa: What we are seeing in here is not acceptable even if we are poor. Even in poverty, there is some dignity. We cannot be made to accept certain agreements that tend to distabilise our system and laws that we cannot operate properly.

It is unacceptable, Hon. Matongo …

Mr Matongo interjected

Dr Machungwa: … you should not ask.

It is not acceptable for our country to enter into agreements that do not recognise our institutions and constitutions.

Madam Chairperson, let me say something that I said last week in my debate because I was misquoted. In foreign relations we respect the sovereignty of other countries. Of course, you try to negotiate the best thing that you can. However, like I said last time, if we reach an agreement with foreign countries which tell us that when you are dealing with certain cases for example, the Task Force, it must be handled by a limited group of magistrates and the prosecutors must be liaising with the judiciary, that is subjecting our constitution to discredit. It is not calling our judiciary corrupt as some little tabloid newspaper misquoted my debate.

 Simply said, there are certain things the constitution says, there is a separation of powers and certain institutions are responsible for that. However, if we reach an agreement with a foreign country which makes us not to follow such laws, then there is a problem. This is basically what I was saying, and because they want to misquote all the time, with your permission Madam, let me repeat the statement that I made.

I said that the fight against corruption is important, but it must be fought fairly and justly. However, some newspaper somewhere went and said, I said it must be fought quietly. No, there is a record here and everything that we say is being recorded.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: All I am saying is that everything must be handled fairly and it must be handled according to the law under our constitution. This is not stating as I said that our judiciary is corrupt. I am not saying anything like that.

Madam Chairperson, let me come to the issue which is also extremely important. We should, as a country, not promote impunity among some of our co-operating partners who are powerful. We know for example, that there are certain courts that have been through the United National System, the International Court of Justice and International Criminal Court. We know that individuals that abuse or commit crimes against humanity or murder offences that cannot be accepted or genocides can be taken to these courts. We know that we have certain individuals who have been prosecuted there. We know the case of Mr Slobodan Milosevic from Serbia, Mr Charles Taylor from Liberia, Radovan Karadzic from Serbia, Mr Biemba from Democratic Republic of Congo some combatants from Sierra Leon and some Rwandese who were involved in the genocide.

Mr Kambwili: And Bush!

Dr Machungwa: These are being done to try and stop impunity, but what worries me …

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: … I am talking about these agreements that are not to our benefit. What worries me is when we find a situation like the 2003 situation where our own Government signed what is known as a Derogation Agreement with the United States of America (USA) Government. What does this derogation agreement say? It simply states that Zambia agrees for USA military or other personnel who commit crimes against humanity not to be taken to the Hague or these international courts, but to be tried in their own country through a military tribunal or something else. If our soldiers on the battle field for peace keeping or any war, committed such crimes, they will be taken to these countries to be tried. Why should we sign this agreement, just for USA to take it to the United Nations? Is it because we are poor? These countries including Zambia had agreed that we should be exempted because if we commit these crimes, we shall try ourselves in America.

Mr Mulongoti: Tilibe Ndalama!

Dr Machungwa: Madam Chairperson, this is a shame and an embarrassment in international relations. Of course, it shows that we are poor. I would like the hon. Minister when he sums up to try and explain the logic behind our Government in accepting to sign this kind of agreement.

Madam Chairperson, I know that Zambia, as a country, may not be economically powerful to stop the American Government or some other powerful governments around the world from imposing their desires, wills and ambitions on it and other countries in Africa and the rest of the world. If we fail that is okay, but we must not be seen to support such impunity. If they force it on us, we should accept it, but with protest. We should not agree to sign. What are we going to gain from that? Some smaller countries in the region refused to sign this agreement, but why did we do it? I think we should not openly bless the wrong things that bigger powers are doing. Just like we condemn some smaller countries when they have made a mistake, we should at least be able to condemn others.

 Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to urge the Government through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that there is a change in the US Government. I know that President Bush gave some carrots for the fight against HIV/AIDS to African countries which was quite welcome. However, I think we have an administration which tends to be a little bit more understanding and tends to respect dignity of other nations. I think we should try to engage them a little bit more closely and add our voice to achieve that which is good for all the people of the world. For example, if we engage them and try to persuade them that they end up against Cuba, for example, is unjust. I do not think Cubans have any military mighty to fight United States of America. They live in peace.  I do not think there have been massacres and genocides there. We could try to speak to the new administration. They sound like we can work well with them. Of course, we have to see what we have to do.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I would like to say that Zambia must jealously, through foreign affairs, guard its sovereignty so that even though we are not a wealthy nation, we maintain our dignity.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Kalumba (Chiengi): Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I will be brief.

Firstly, I want to commend the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. I think he has shown that he is a cool headed individual. He has…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … been a good steward of our foreign policy both under President Mwanawasa and President Banda now. I urge him to continue with his cool-headedness.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Zambia has for many years been the platform for reconciliation and peace making.

We witnessed, Madam Chairperson, in the 1970s one roving Ambassador or diplomat by the name of Mr V. J. Mwaanga.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: He was up and down all over the world trying to fight for the freedom of   Southern Rhodesia (present day Zimbabwe) then for the struggle they embarked on as Frontline States. He is one of the men who defined diplomacy in Zambia…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … and it is important sometimes to acknowledge the past as you move on to the future. On this small note, I would like to make a, by the way, comment that before  the heavily indebted poor country (HIPC) Completion Point, there was a  decision regarding this point and there was a Minister of Finance and National Planning who helped this country reach this decision point. He does not call himself Mr HIPC, but he did so.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Madam Chairperson, there are many troubled spots which need to be attended to. In the last fifteen, or so years, we have seen Zambia host the Democratic Republic of Congo and Angola peace processes and they were really,  must add, at the frontline under the Mwanawasa Administration. When this young man here was Minister of Foreign Affairs, we worked hard to help our continent finalise the chapters necessary for the launching of the African Union (AU). It is important that we carry forward this traditional diplomacy that very eminent diplomats like Hon. Mwaanga had initiated. There must be that continuity to make Zambia a country where conflict is resolved.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: We must be able to understand and define what constitutes our national, strategic and vital interests. I must add that vital interests are the kind where a country can go to war. We must know when Zambia’s vital interests are threatened. One of these I must propose is territorial integrity which must be considered a vital interest. When our borders are violated or encroached upon at Sam Mujinga in Mwinilunga District, Shang’ombo in Western Province or in Chama and you do not exactly know where Zambia starts or ends, then we have a big problem.

Hon. Government Member: Including Kaputa.

Dr Kalumba: Including Kaputa. Thank you, Hon. Mwanawasa.

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Kalumba: Sorry, Chair, Hon. Mubika Mubika.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: I am sorry, Madam Chairperson. That is his nickname. He was given that name by the late President.

It is important to begin to defend our borders. It is important for our diplomacy to define clearly our borders as part of our vital interests. I have stressed this point many times and I shall never tire to speak about the Lunchinda/Mpweto Enclave as an area that requires serious diplomatic initiatives and it is possible that it can be done.

Madam Chairperson, when we look at Zambia in the north, the region I am talking about, Chiengi District in 2050 will probably have three hundred thousand people. Now, that population will be living in a radius between the national park and the lake of five kilometres and a stretch of about 130 kilometers. That means a density of two hundred and fifty people per square kilometre. It will not be possible unless we are able to live in the space that was defined in the 1884 Treaty. The Lunchinda/Mpweto Enclave cannot be traded by an illegal assignment by the Queen of England to give one of the islands on Lake Bangweulu as a present to King Leopold II of Belgium when we were a protectorate and not a colony. The Queen could only hold Zambia in trust on behalf of the natives. You cannot give something you hold in trust as a gift to somebody else. We love the Queen and long live to her, but that is not acceptable and Her Majesty’s Government understands international law.

Madam Chairperson, the1989 Delimitation Treaty cannot not be accepted for the simple reason that the Bwile People in that enclave were never consulted on whether they would accept occupation as happened during the Belgium days and later on when Congo became independent. You cannot accept as has happened in other countries such as the Niger or Cameroon. You cannot accept without the consent of the people occupying an area. You cannot have a treaty that alienates people without their consent to another sovereign power. That is unacceptable.

Hon. UPND Members: Who was Minister of Home Affairs?

Dr Kalumba: I urge the hon. Minister to take Zambia back. Our neighbours involved in this matter are aware of this issue and were ready to start talking to us when the late President Laurent Kabila came to power. Let us open this door and renegotiate the Delimitation Treaty of 1989. It is in Zambia’s vital interest that we do so.

Madam Chairperson, there is a Japanese word called “tatemeya”. This is a Japanese way to say yes with a smile, without meaning it. In Zambia and Africa in general, we tend to look at smile and a nod as an agreement.

“Tatemeya” is a strategy that other cultures have developed to learn to say no by appearing to say yes. Madam, we have cultures. When we go to that school of diplomacy, let us look at our African cultures and use them effectively. We cannot be good diplomats when we use the symbolic power and the terrain of other people. We should use our natural and cultural diplomatic skills. That is how Alf and Sharp failed to sign an agreement with Mwata Kazembe. He read correctly and diplomatically defeated them. Those skills are indigenous to us. We must begin to train some of our diplomats in the intricate nature of communication in a multicultural society. Without that, we will always be second hand diplomats.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson, in supporting the Vote on the Ministry of foreign affairs, I must state that although the money is not enough, it is one ministry that has received an increase of close to K50 billion. A while ago, we looked at the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development where there is a reduction from K60 billion to K22 billion. I want to state that although we talk about the exchange rate, it is one ministry that is not prudent in the use of money even when there is a gain in the exchange rate.
 
Madam Chairperson, because of the problems we are having internationally, I want to appeal to the people in this ministry to be even more careful. There is no need to transfer an officer who has embezzled funds from one embassy to another. You do not have to cover people that you send, especially the party carders that you send to the diplomacy school for only five weeks to seek from some of these elderly people’s diplomatic language. In the end, they do not learn enough about diplomacy. We are now picking chaff to send in the diplomatic service. Sometimes these are people with records of money embezzlement at home. We are sending near criminals who have cases at home in to the diplomatic service.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, an hon. Minister should accept that this person is known for what he did at one embassy and not shift them to another one. What picture are you painting?

Major Chizhyuka: Very bad.

Mr Muntanga: I know that in Zambia, we have a tendency of changing and somersaulting. Sometime back, we had cases because of foreign influence where we had to pressurise and make people who were in the Government to resign because some foreign country required Zambia to abide by certain measures.

Major Chizhyuka: They had criminal records.

Mr Muntanga: They demanded resignation. It was influence from outside. Now, this time we are saying that we should not follow foreign influence because certain cases should go a favourable way. That is not correct. We are saying that if our Foreign Service needs to be cleaned, let it be cleaned. If Zambia was known to be tackling corruption because of certain actions, it is a good thing. We have made hon. Ministers resign because they did something wrong. They have stepped down. It is there and we all know this.

Madam Chairperson, now we are going backwards to a situation where we do not mind who we send for diplomatic service. We are going back to a time where we were sending people that tarnished the image of Zambia outside. How many party cadres have we sent? There is nothing wrong in sending a party cadre per se because everyone who is in a party is a cadre. However, why send the wrong ones? Why do we have to perpetually do this? If someone loses an election, we send them into Foreign Service. If someone is caught in wrong doing they are sent to Foreign Service. Should the Foreign Service be used as a hiding place for those who are bad? Why?

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs must take note of this problem. We are continuously changing.

Major Chizhyuka: Recycling layers.

Mr Muntanga: We think that sending some old people for five weeks’ training in diplomacy is enough. This is why in the end they have not learnt enough. They go and agree to wrong things thinking that is diplomacy. It is even better to take me, without diplomacy, and I would tell them the truth. I would tell them as it stands and not lie.

Madam Chairperson, these contracts you are signing on behalf of Zambia are done in the diplomatic service at the embassies. Zambia will be committed to certain debt without us knowing because of some of these agreements that are signed at the embassies. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has now been given more money. To our standard, you had K197 billion last year, but now you have been given K245 billion. You have an increase. In real terms of exchange values you may not have enough.

However, face the fact, if tomorrow the kwacha gains, you will not come back and say that you have double the amount of money required. You will still hold onto that amount of money. Why should Ministry of Foreign Affairs be allocated this amount of money? In fact, we were saying that we had to serve by closing certain embassies, but we have now seen some more being reopened. Last year, we reopened an embassy in Ghana and other countries.  This was to create jobs for people who are our rivals or are stranded.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, if you want to be secured …

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order! Hon. Muntanga will debate freely without the interference of others.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, Madam, I thank you, very much.

I would like to state that we have noticed that politicians who have lost elections run for the embassies. You will agree with me that a while ago, there were people who were camouflaging as the President’s relatives somewhere. They were coming here to queue for ambassadorial positions.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has supported that by increasing the budget allocation. We must be aware that we have not been excluded from this international financial crisis. This is the reason we should have closed some embassies. Why can we not be economic in that regard as well?

Mr Kambwili: Mozambique!

Mr Muntanga: Why do we need to send all these people we cannot name? You have reduced the budget allocation for the youths from K60 billion to K22 billion. You have deprived the Zambian youths of the little resources that are available. You should have allocated the K50 billion to the youths and K197 million should have been given to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We have a bigger problem there. Why should we pass the bag elsewhere? In any case, do we need to travel from one country to another everyday? Why should Zambia go to countries where there are conflicts or fights all the time? We were fighting and helping Zimbabwe, but what did we gain? Our people in Southern Province were killed and are still dying from landmines, what are you gaining? We helped the South Africans and Namibians, but they will be the first ones to laugh at us. Why can you not, for a change, take your stance properly hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs because Zambia has worked? It has done its job. Use the money diligently.

Madam Chairperson, there are stories of people dealing in child trafficking passing through Zambia to some other countries every time, but some countries do nothing about it. You will have more serious problems if you go on serving these neighbouring countries. What is it that you are doing?

Madam Chairperson, if you want to go to Britain now, you are subjected to criminal checks and treated like a criminal. They must check for your finger prints, eyes and you must look through something to just get a visa to go to England. Why are you not reciprocating here? They are coming here without being checked. You have allowed them to come here without being checked as to whether they are criminals or not. Why are you not responding to this type of behaviour? What are you scared of? Check them as well! I do not need to go to London for what? For a start, they will ask whether you are a criminal or not. Then they will demand to look at your finger prints. What do you do to those who come here? Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs you must also take steps which are negative. We have given you the money. You have now got an increment. You have got K50 billion more than what you had last year. You go and reciprocate where Zambians are being mistreated. Birds of the same feathers flock together.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: It is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs that should be able to respond quickly. When he stands up to reply, I would like him to respond to the way we are treated when we want to go to London. They will still check you whether you are in transit or not, but you even treat very simple Britons special. Why should you do that? We do not have the money, let me mention that.

Madam Chairperson, the money that we had, that is the pound, the Rhodesian kwacha which went on the foreign exchange when Copper mining was thriving has not come back to Zambia. The money that made Zambia’s kwacha strong in the metal exchange has not come back.

What are doing about that hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs? Zambia’s share has not come back. What are doing? The Ministry of Foreign Affairs just escorts the President.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Check at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and see whether Zambia is benefiting. That way this money that we have given them will mean something. If there will be no change, it means that we are just putting some party cadres in some positions to drain the money. When we come back here, there will be no money. They will send another group because a number of them will not come back after elections (Government Members) and their hope is to go to the other side. He is dreaming to go to Angola near his home for diamond.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Mr Muntanga, you are being provocative to the hon. Minister. Can you, please, address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: I would like the hon. Ministry of Foreign Affairs to take its full charge. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is elevated in the Government and is the only person who is always nearer to the President. Please, let us get something better. If Zambians are mistreated somewhere, we expect a reciprocal to that end. You must react. Do not keep quiet and play the good boy when you are suffering.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Madam Chairperson: I would like to urge Mr Imasiku not use up all his fifteen minutes so that another person can debate.

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this vote. From the start, I would like to mention that I will be brief.

Mr Kambwili: He is a job seeker!

Mr Imasiku: Madam, I stand here to emphasise that this ministry is very important.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is one of those ministries that have made it possible for us to sit in here peacefully.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: There are some people who have complained that the ministry is not doing anything just because they are not there, that is why you are peaceful.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has maintained good relationships. I…

Mr Kambwili: Speak through the microphone

Mr Imasiku: Mr Kambwili, I think many times, you interrupt me and I do not appreciate that.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Ulefwaya inchito yakwa Chibombamilimo.

Mr Imasiku: Madam, the importance of this ministry cannot be overemphasised. If you trace this ministry from the time of the United National Independence Part (UNIP) to date, you will notice that it has maintained its consistence. It has remained the same ministry. Whenever you go out side this country, you will realise that you are coming from a very important country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Madam, actually, when you go to USA, you find that the Secretary of State is equivalent to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Kabinga Mpande, here. This is a very important ministry. Recently, we have been seeing Hillary Clinton moving from one country to another …

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: … just trying to sell USA and this is what this ministry has been doing.

Madam Chairperson, you only realise that you come from a very important country when you travel abroad. At one time, I was in South Africa …

Mr Kambwili: Ale fwaya inchito!

Mrs Masebo : What else would you want if its not a job.

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

 

 

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair cannot see any unprocedural happening here. Can we allow the flow of debate.

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, I was in another country just a few years ago and in that very country, we found that people were not friendly. Immediately they heard that I came from Zambia, they changed their attitude towards me. This is because Zambia is a country that is well sold internationally.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, actually, this ministry has managed to do a lot internationally. The peace we are enjoying in this country and the relations we are enjoying with other countries is because of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Are we not the people who are in the Great Lakes who are organising and assisting other countries to become peaceful? We are the people who have helped the Congo DR to become peaceful. This policy has been consistent in making Zambia a country to reckon with in terms of foreign affairs.

Mr Mbewe: Wan vela, Kambwili?

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, it is this Ministry of Foreign Affairs which has really made it possible for investors to come in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: They are the people who accompany the President whenever he goes outside the country. I was actually amongst the people that accompanied the late President to German.

Mr Muntanga: Germany, you?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: We discussed business and other things. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs was also there to attract attention.

Interruptions

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, whatever we are seeing in this country in terms of…

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Mr Muyanda will listen to the very serious debate on the Floor without interrupting Mr Imasiku.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, it is this ministry which is assisting this country to attract investors. People come from all over the world to come and mine in Zambia.

Mr Sichamba: Bulela!

Mr Imasiku: Somebody might say that they are packing. It is not the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that wants them to go back. It is just because of the current economical problems in the world. You cannot blame this country or this ministry. A lot of investors have come into this country and they are trying to develop it. This is due to our good and peaceful policies. We have never even gone to war with other countries.

Mr Kambwili: Bulela!

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, even the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZ) which is being earmarked for this country is because of its peaceful and good policies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, if another Government comes here with a bad policy, you will see all these investors leaving. If you bring a person like Hon. Kambwili, you will see the investors running away.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, a lot of tourists are coming to this country. When they come here, they are at peace and they do not think about wars and so on. This is because there is peace in this country. We, therefore, commend the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs who is always selling this country internationally. If you remember, even in the phasing out of our debts such as the HIPC, it was successful because this country has a good policy. It is because those countries saw something in us. This is because of this peaceful country and the foreign policies which are so good.

Madam Chairperson, we get a lot of money in terms of loans and so on and the people who give us these loans know that there is peace and good policies in this country. The Minister of Foreign Affairs is running this ministry very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, I heard someone talk about diplomats. We have renowned diplomats like Hon. V J Mwaanga and General Chinkuli in Germany, who have a lot of experience? These are people who are respected. However, someone stood in this House to say that we do not have good diplomats abroad.

Madam Chairperson, we have got very qualified diplomats from this country. This is why you are seeing a lot of things coming into this country. If you go to Japan, you will find Mr Simasiku, who is a very serious diplomat.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: What diplomacy are you looking for?

Madam Chairperson, this country is doing well in terms of foreign affairs and foreign policy.

 Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear

Mr Imasiku: All we need to do is to encourage the hon. Minister to continue with the good work.

Madam Chairperson, I stand to support this Vote.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear

Hon. MMD Member: Wanvela Kambwili?

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Chairperson, thank you …

The Chairperson: What are thinking about? Speak on foreign affairs.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, when the skin of a black African is scratched and it is important for me to stress the word black because I know that there are some people whose skins are slightly light, who tend to think that they are not like us.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: I am, therefore, talking about the skin of a black African. When this skin is scratched, underneath, you will find a pan- Africanist. Scratch slightly further and you will find a nationalist. For the sake of the debate to come later within the course of this session, I will tell you what you would find if you scratched beneath the skin of a nationalist.

Madam Chairperson, I am saying this because as Africans, we only managed to liberate the continent because Africans helped Africans. When the wind of change blew from Ghana in 1957, coming down to South Africa, Africans supported fellow Africans. I am saying this because Zambia, like Hon. Katele Kalumba alluded to, has been a formidable nation in providing a bastion of peace and the right international decisions for the African Continent.

Indeed, like our colleagues said, when we had the problems in Congo, it had to be a Lusaka protocol for Congo, just like it took a Lusaka for Angola. It is in Lusaka that we dealt with the problems of Mozambique, Zimbabwe and South Africa. We, however were not alone. Other, African countries supported us.

Therefore, as we chart a foreign policy for Zambia, we must be mindful all the time that we are as a nation because we worked together with other African countries.

Pan-Africanism should be a bedrock of the decision the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs takes when dealing with African problems. I get very concerned when I look at the situations in Darfur, Sudan following the decision that day by the UN Security Council to transfer the case of Darfur to the International Criminal Court with a vote of eleven to three that Mr Omar Hassan Al-Bashir‘s be transferred to the International Criminal Court. Countries like Britain, France and most of them in Europe welcomed that decision.

Madam Chairperson, do you know that Mr Al-Bashir in being inducted to the International Criminal Court because of the three ethnic tribes? For your own information, Darfur is the size of France. Therefore, when you are talking three ethnic tribes, you might be thinking of tribes like Bemba, Lozi, Ngoni, Tongo…

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka:…being ravaged by the janjaweed. As a militia, they are being supported by the Government of Sudan. Human beings, who are your fellow Africans are being subjected to the very worst of the worst treatment on the continent.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili has been a very good hon. today. Can he end the day on that note?

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, as a Pan-Africanist, my heart goes out to those three ethnic tribes in Sudan, sons of the black soil, whose sons and daughters are being ravaged, tortured and the young girls even being rapped. You can think of the most inhuman treatment that cannot ever be undertaken on the skin of a human, but that is what is being done to your fellow tribesmen in Darfur. Given a high level of investigations, the International Body of Nations have decided for the very first time that a serving President must be inducted to the International Criminal Court.

Madam Chairperson, your Government on the right, the Rupiah Bwezani Banda Government led by a very sober gentleman who is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, the best they can count have decided that the decision taken by the United Security Council is not the correct decision. The English, the French and many far flung countries have said that they induct this President. In fact, they are not only inducting him for war crimes, but for genocide as well. Three million people have been displaced. Think of that! Three million is like the whole of Lusaka. Yet, this Government is saying that is the correct decision. They think that they are more intelligent than the United Nations Security Council.

Can they tell us what means they are going to use as Zambia, impotent in military power? Can they tell us how they are going to resolve the problem of the 300,000 deaths and 3 million displaced people in Durfur in Sudan? What are your options?

You did not become Zambia because you fought …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah! Iwe Mbewe!

Mr Muntanga: Carry on.

Major Chizhyuka: You did not form Zambia because you stood as Zambia alone …

Madam Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Madam Speaker, I rarely stand to raise points of order.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: However, I would like to find out from you, Madam Chair, whether it is in order for the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan to come in jeans to this House. The dress code properly stipulates that we are not supposed to wear jeans in the House.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Is he in order to wear a soft jean in this House? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Chairperson: Indeed, that would constitute a point of order as dress code is one of those factors that you can raise. If the hon. Member is,indeed, in jeans, that is out of order. However, where …

Mr Mubika: Stand up!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order! We do not rule like that.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: From where the Chair is seated, it becomes difficult to ascertain what the hon. Member is wearing. If he is, indeed, not properly dressed, he may have to leave. However, the Chair cannot see from here.

Major Chizhyuka, you may continue with your debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Kambwili!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I have said all these things because Zambia has played a principle role in the international relations.

Mr Hamududu: It is not an island!

Major Chizhyuka: Zambia also played a principle role when Nelson Mandela came out of prison. After twenty-seven years in prison, the first country he touched, away from that prison was Zambia.

We had an international statesman by the name President Kenneth David Kaunda.

Hon. Member: hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Major Chizhyuka: When we had problems in Iraq, George Bush Senior requested for the services of the prudence and audacity of President Kaunda to deal with the Iraq situation. He just saw that maybe Saddam Hussein could be mollified. We have a strong position of magnanimity as Zambia. We have a strong position of international statespersons and so, we should not belittle ourselves now by associating ourselves with decisions which are not embellished with the Zambian tag.

I understand that certain decisions are carried out in a manner of the birds we call bashikube in Ila.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: What are they called in English? Bashikube.

Mr Mwiimbu: Vultures.

Major Chizhyuka: Vultures – bashikube.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: As we deliberate and allocate funds to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs in this Budget, I hope that he will use these funds to make the correct decisions for Zambia on the international platform.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: You must make the right decisions for Zambia. These are decisions you are making at times from whatever, since we have to use parliamentary language, there is a word which I would have used, but I may not use it. Let us be prudent and remember the history of our country that has managed conflicts correctly. We have had good leaders. I would like to agree with Hon. Muntanga’s debate that Foreign Service should not recycle liars …

Laughter

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Hon. Minister, I mean recycled liars …

Madam Chairperson: Order!

I think you know what you are doing.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I wanted to pass a message on Durfur, but given the time that I have left, I would like to end here.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chief Whip (Mr Mwaanga): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in this very important debate in support of the Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I want to begin by applauding our policy of non-alignment and non-interference in the internal affairs of other states. This Pan-Africanist and nationistic policy, for the sake of Hon. Chizhyuka has served Zambia well since Independence in 1964 and I know it will continue to serve us well in the future. This policy recognises that we are separate, but sovereign states and each state has the power, the responsibility and the duty to determine its path forward, and to determine its own responsibilities obligations and rights in terms of our role in the field of international affairs.

Madam Chairperson, over the years, we have used our foreign policy as an instrument for national development as well as an effective weapon for peace and security with all our eight neighbouring states. Through our peace-keeping operations in various parts of the world, we have more than demonstrated our sense of responsibility as members AU, UN, the Non-alignment Movement, the Commonwealth Organisation, SADC and COMESA, that we deeply care for others.

As we cautiously move towards the transformation of AU into a vehicle for achieving greater African unity, we have no illusions that this path will not be easy and we also know that there will be differences among us, as Africans, in terms of how we should proceed towards our ultimate goal of much closer unity. The kind of framework which our founding fathers envisaged will not be achieved without the need to make difficult decisions by every member of AU. If we are going to overcome these difficulties and differences, it is important to understand that we must work to accommodate these difficulties and differences, because they are unlikely to disappear. We have to plan our unity in such a way that it allows for existing differences.

Madam Chairperson, our policy of non-alignment does not mean hostility towards other nations which do not share our foreign policy perspective or vision. It simply means that we have chosen to take an independent foreign policy line which gives us the freedom to take positions for or against certain decisions which in our view undermine international peace and security within the meaning of the United Nations Charter. We are proud of our foreign policy record, which has won the acclaim and approbation of the whole world. I pay tribute to my colleague, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Kabinga Pande, MP and all his hard working officials at the ministry headquarters and in all our thirty-one missions abroad for the good work they continue to do for Zambia as well as for Africa.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

They have made it possible for Zambia to maintain a very stable foreign policy which has enabled our country to be respected. They universality of nations means that all nations must be respected – big or small.

The conduct of international relations is a complex matter and that is why in this year’s budget allocation to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, there is a provision for continuing support to the Zambia Institute for Diplomatic Studies (ZIDIS) which continues to train all those who enter the Zambian diplomatic service. On a personal note, I am happy that this was one of the ideas I started as Minister of Foreign Affairs in 1973 and continued in 1991. It is my hope that more money will be allocated to this institute as and when it becomes available so that it can be developed further and cater for professional diploma courses as was the case at its inception. In addition to the short courses, it currently runs for both Government officials and persons in the private sector.

Madam Chairperson, I am supremely confident that the zeal, with which we pursued the colonialists until they were defeated, will propel us to work equally hard to advance our cause as Zambians first and Africans and citizens of our global village at large.

Madam Chairperson, let me state that we should not be discouraged by the disciples of gloom and doom who do not want us to make our contribution to Africa and the world, because through their negative comments and utterances they seek to make us lose confidence and faith in ourselves. This is one of the waste things which can happen to us as a people. In 1963, after the formation of the Organisation of African unity (OAU), we all rejoiced excessively. When problems arose along the way, we despaired much too much sometimes as if setbacks represented final defeat.

I believe that we have recovered our balance as Africans and Zambians with the formation of AU. We have picked our way forward and defined our ultimate goal. It may be that we shall suffer further setbacks, it may be that our progress towards achieving African Unity will be slow, but if we use our vision of African unity as our guiding star, we shall not and we should not lose our way.

We are fortunate to have the kind of President we have of our country, who was once an active foreign policy practitioner as Ambassador of Zambia to Egypt, United States of America, permanent representative of Zambia to UN and Minister of Foreign Affairs and I am certain that he will actively support his very able and level headed Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Chairperson, it has been alleged that criminals are being sent into the Foreign Service. This is simply not true. Every person who is appointed to this service is subjected to a security check by Zambia’s security agencies. Those who do not pass this check do not find their way into the Foreign Service.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Chairperson, I have heard some hon. Members say that the Foreign Service should not accommodate party cadres. It is my submission that there is no Government worth its name which is going to exclude party cadres from Government appointments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mwaanga: In USA, when there is a change of President, he or she makes 8,000 political appointments of those who worked for him or her and it is called “the spoil system”. They join Government to share the spoils and this is accepted, it is normal.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: It does not only happen in USA, but all over the world. I know that in the most unlikely event, should another party other than the MMD come into Government in the distant future, it will do exactly the same as we are doing.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: This is a normal practice as Hon. Matongo has already alluded to.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of mistreatment of Zambians, particularly at the point where they apply for visas to go and visit other countries, is an extremely serious matter and I am sure that there are a number of foreign missions in Zambia which are notorious for humiliating Zambians.

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Mwaanga: I know that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that is the hon. Minister and his officials, will pay particular attention to these issues. May I also use this occasion to appeal to other Zambians who undergo this kind of experience to report these matters to the Government so that we are aware of these difficulties and have corrective action taken.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: After all, international diplomacy and relations is conducted on the basis of maximum reciprocity. As a result of these attitudes that have been shown, I hope that in the course of granting visas to other nationals, and particularly citizens of those countries that humiliate Zambians at application point, we shall apply the same criteria so that the principle of maximum reciprocity is observed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Chairperson, I therefore, wish to appeal to this House to support this Vote and ensure that the hon. Minister and his officials are encouraged to continue doing the work they do best, which is ensuring that we continue to enjoy peace with all our neighbours and the rest of the world and that we continue to play an active role in international affairs and the international organisations to which we belong. After all, all these principles we have talked about are enshrined in the MMD Constitution which was adopted in 1991.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, I would like to most sincerely thank all the people who have debated on this Vote. However, I would like to refer to some issues raised by Hon. Matongo. I wish to thank him most sincerely as he came out very strongly. As hon. Members may be aware, we are now concentrating on economic foreign policy and that is why a number of direct foreign investments are coming to this country.

Madam, on the issue of trained staff being posted to missions abroad, I would say that from the time …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! The House will listen to the hon. Minister.

Mr Pande: … I become the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, not a single individual has gone into foreign service without going through training. Hon. Muntanga suggested that officers should undergo five weeks training, but if one has the capacity to absorb information quickly, even two weeks is enough. Maybe what we should do is to allow hon. Members who doubt the quality of this training to attend it during the time when the Parliamentary Sessions are on recess. I am sure that after attending this course, they will agree that we are sending people who are well trained. It is a crush programme and people who attend it appreciate its quality. As the Government, we would not want the name and profile of Zambia, which has continued to rise internationally, to be brought down by an individual.

Yes indeed, as pointed out by Hon. Matongo, there will be instances when we feel we can be represented by our embassy officials and this is why when we are sending them into foreign service, we are quite selective. The hon. Member indicated some of the missions that he felt were very important and indeed, those missions have well qualified staff.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to also thank Hon. Machungwa for his remarks. He touched on the issue of attracting investors, which I have already alluded to, and he also …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 11th March, 2009.