DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 13th March, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 17th March, 2009, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

 Head 80 – Ministry of Education;
 Head 87 – Anti-Corruption Commission; and
 Head 89 – Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

On Wednesday, 18th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads.

Head 33 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry;
Heads 90 and 98 – Office of the President – Provinces.

On Thursday, 19th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the Second Reading stage of the five Bills that were referred to the Committee on Estimates. These are:

 Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

 Customs and Excise Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

 Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

 The Property Tax Transfer (Amendment) Bill, 2009

 The Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will continue with the consideration of the following Heads:

 Head 90 and 98 – Office of the President – Provinces.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 20th March, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will consider Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider the Second Reading stage of the two Bills that were referred to the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). These are:

 The Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill, 2009

 The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, 2007

After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply and will continue consideration of the following Heads:

 Head 90 and 98 – Office of the President – Provinces.

The House will also deal with any other business that may be outstanding.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

_________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, the global economic crunch entails that there is prudent management of people’s resources. The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) generates revenue on behalf of the Government. As such, any expenditure incurred has to be subjected to a cost-benefit analysis. We have four active borders. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to shed light on the necessity of ordering eight scanners, which ZRA did not request for, for borders which are not active, at, I hear, an estimated cost of K50 million. The Government has gone ahead to secure a loan from China to bring in eight scanners when it is more than ZRA requires. Is it because someone has an interest in this contract?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.):  Mr Speaker, the hon. Member who has asked that question was in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning at the time the scanners were ordered. He knows that it was ZRA which requested for them. The estimated cost of the scanners which he has given to the House is not correct.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members who leave the Government are still under oath …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and there is certain information which they cannot disclose.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I just thought I should counsel the hon. Member who asked this question. There is nothing wrong with the procurement of the scanners he referred to.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The House will be patient as His Honour the Vice-President answers questions. If you have a question, you have to wait for your turn.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and learned Minister of Justice what the Government is doing regarding the people of Mugoto who were displaced as a result of a mining investment that has gone under care and maintenance. The Government was party to the agreement that detailed that the displaced people would be given a clinic, school and the bridge would be elevated as compensation for displacing them. Can His Honour the Vice-President tell us whether the Government will take the role of fulfilling these contractual obligations since the mine has gone under care and maintenance?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, indeed, it is the responsibility of the Government to look after its people. If there is any breach of agreement as alleged, it is our responsibility to look into it. If the hon. Member has any specific areas of breach of that agreement, let him bring it our attention. I know that the villagers were resettled and the investors have tried their best to comply with the agreement and have built houses for them as well. However, if there are any areas of concern which the Government is obliged to look into under the agreement, let us be in contact and we will look into that.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice whether the Government has any intentions of reducing the number of Zambian missions abroad in order to reduce on the expenditure in view of the global economic crisis.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Order! The people on my right will also be patient.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, in fact, it is at this time of the world economic crunch that we need missions abroad …

Mr Pande: More than before.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … more than before so that they can market Zambia. In that way, we can attract investment to Zambia. In fact, we should be increasing the number of missions by establishing some in areas where …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … we are not represented. Therefore, we have no intentions of cutting down on the number of missions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, my question deals with the use of confidential information. When Hon. Magande was in Government, we heard nothing that he did wrong. Suddenly, when he aspired for leadership, we are hearing about the wrong things that he is supposed to have committed. This applies to Dr Sondashi as well. Since he aspired for leadership or differed with the Government, we have heard that he committed some offences just like many others.

Sir, could His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice inform this House how many of the current Cabinet Ministers have committed offences that we shall only hear about when they aspire for leadership …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … or differ with the Government?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we know that even we, in Government, are not immune from investigations. You are aware of cases where hon. Ministers and public officers have been the subject of investigations. In fact, even tribunals are set up and people are taken to court. However, I think the Government is entitled to expose the dealings, while in Government, of those who leave the Government and make specific allegations to try to scandalise or undermine its operations.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In as much as they can also expose any wrong doing, those who leave the Government must be careful because they took an oath of secrecy. They must not reveal confidential information, but abide by the oath. Many hon. Ministers know secrets and when they are relieved of their duties, they leave and do not make noise. Even when it is convenient for them, they do not start scandalising the Government. Therefore, we should bear this in mind and be responsible.

I thank you, Sir.

 Mr Speaker: May we stop the clock. Let me guide the House. You have heard the presiding officers guide this House that hon. Members of Parliament in this House, who held previous positions, should not be held responsible in so far as their freedom to speak in this House is concerned.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That rule binds both sides of this House. There are leaders that I see here and there are also former leaders that I see over there. Therefore, both sides are affected. By the same token, current or former leaders must be very cautious about what they say and do beyond the positions they held. This is a general reminder on the guidance I have given before.

Thank you.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice help me understand what the Government will do to recover the eighteen buses that were bought through the Tanzania Zambia Railways (TAZARA) which are said to have gone missing?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is the question that I missed last week. We are not aware of that, but if you have any details, let us know. We are a responsible Government and will follow up the issue.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, three weeks ago, I asked His Honour the Vice-President why the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) was being so coy at releasing its post-mortem report. He said he did not know anything about it. I am sure by now he has established the reasons for the ECZ being so shy about releasing this report. Its refusal to release the report is simply adding to its disreputability.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I am surprised that the Opposition Members of Parliament, particularly the PF, who say that the ECZ should be independent, are now trying to force us to start interfering with its work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I would like to advise him to go to ECZ and get that information. There are ways in which he can demand for that information.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice the Government’s position regarding the death penalty. Does the Government intend to maintain or abolish it?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker that is a very important question.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: At the moment, the death penalty is in our statute books. It applies in respect of offences such as murder, treason and aggravated robbery. It is a law of this country. As you know, the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace,…

Mr Shakafuswa: In pieces!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … made it a policy that he would not sign any death warrant. The current President has also made it a policy and it is public knowledge that he will not sign any death warrant, although the law still remains. The court will continue to perform its functions in accordance with the law. As a listening Government, we know that the issue of the death penalty is a matter which is debatable and the people of Zambia have been debating it. Some people feel that the death penalty should be abolished while others feel that we should maintain it. That is why it is one of the items which will be resolved by the National Constitutional Conference (NCC)…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … which is currently sitting. In the conference, the people of Zambia will debate, make recommendations and even decide on whether the laws of Zambia should be amended to abolish the death penalty. Currently, we are consulting the people of Zambia and whatever decision will be reached, is what we are going to follow.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, the Government is on record for informing the nation and the House in particular that they shall take over the mining operations of companies that have closed or placed their operations under care and maintenance. The question that begs an answer is: what measures is the Government going to put in place to compel these mining companies to hand over the companies to Government, considering that the mining companies are alleging that under the development agreements, the Government has no power to compel them to hand over the mining operations to the Government?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that question is important. The mining industry is going through turbulence caused by the current credit crunch and we know that mining companies are facing a lot of difficulties. We are a Government of laws. We know that if we take certain measures which are outside the law, the Zambian investment climate may be affected because investors will fear for the security of their property and investment. Therefore, if there are any agreements which still bind the Government, of course, it is an obligation and important for us to respect them and that is what we are doing. We have engaged mining companies because we are also looking at the interest of our people, especially the workers who are being left without jobs. Therefore, as a responsible Government, we have engaged the mining companies so that we can reach an amicable settlement. Putting mines under care and maintenance is not the best option. That is why we have engaged the mining companies.

Sir, in the mining sector, we have been assured by the Chinese companies that are running the mines that notwithstanding the difficult situation in which we are, they will not close their mines. They will not lay off workers and this is how a responsible investor should behave in these circumstances. Therefore, we are doing everything possible. We will look at various options to ensure that we protect the mines. We also know that it is not only Zambia which is affected. All over the world, mines and companies are closing. Therefore, we will look at various options.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, I just want to mention to His Honour the Vice-President that over ten years ago, the Government started building chiefs’ houses in Chief Lukwesa and Chief Lubunda’s areas in Mwense Constituency, which they abandoned. Serious efforts have been made to compel the Government to complete those works, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, but because of their policy, they claim that they cannot build houses. Before building these houses, they demolished the structures which were there. The chiefs cannot finish building the houses which are there. What is the Government doing to ensure that these houses are completed?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that question raises some concern. I am surprised that the hon. Member of Parliament is not helping the chiefs concerned to complete the construction of their houses.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the policy of the Government is that subjects should look after their chiefs.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In rural areas, it is very easy to build a house from burnt bricks and cement. You can build a beautiful mansion for a chief from those bricks. In the past, we have tried to assist chiefs, but the primary responsibility is that of the subjects. Subjects, including the hon. Member of Parliament, should look after their chiefs.

I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, as much as I appreciate what this working Government is doing in the rural areas in terms of the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) and grading feeder roads, I would like to know what plans the Government has regarding Mupepetwe Engineering in Serenje District?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, for the information of hon. Members, Mupepetwe Engineering is in my constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is a military institution. As a Government, we know that people must be employed. We also know that we must diversify the economy and involve defence industries in the economic activities of this country. There were problems of workers not being paid and terminal benefit arrears at Mupepetwe Engineering which we have addressed fully. Mupepetwe Engineering is an industry which can produce school desks. Instead of ordering school desks from South Africa, we are utilising this industry so that we can address the issue of school desks in the schools across the country. We are also in contact with the Chinese Government so that we can find ways and means of revamping this industry.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, in 2005, the Government embarked on the repatriation of the Lenshina followers who were displaced in 1964. About 300 households were repatriated. This year, the Government is about to repatriate another 300 households. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the Government is doing to ensure that when these people are repatriated to Chinsali, they will not be subjected to suffering. As I speak, these people go to bed without eating because of the poor planning of this Government. What is the Government doing to ensure that these people have enough food when they are repatriated to Chinsali?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that the hon. Member should wait for the Vice-President’s Question Time to raise this issue.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  If these people are really suffering, as a listening Government, we are available to look after them. If there are any pressing problems, they can be brought to us. It is the responsibility of the Government to look after its people. In fact, under the Vice-President’s Office, we have a programme to resettle people. This is one of the situations in which we can assist the people of Chinsali. There is no reason for our people to suffer when the Government is there. Simply bring that problem to our attention with the details of what is involved and we will look into it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, since there is a marked increase in the number of motor vehicles in Lusaka resulting in traffic jams in certain parts, when will this Government facilitate the opening of ring roads around Lusaka, a programme that has been on the table for a long time?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the other day, I launched the Lusaka Integrated Development Plan. There are some ring roads which we have already constructed. This is an on-going programme. Indeed, the city of Lusaka is now congested and there is need to open up ring roads. We are concerned about the situation and that is why we have developed these plans and we shall continue to work on it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President the position on the high price of mealie-meal and the shortages which have persisted.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have been looking into this problem. We procured a lot of maize recently. If there are any areas where there are shortages, let us know. We also know that the problem of smuggling is a continuing phenomenon. Our security forces are on alert. At some borders, trucks transporting maize outside the country have been detained. Therefore, there are some security implications here. However, we are addressing the problem and, to a great extent, the problem of high prices of mealie-meal and its availability has stabilised. Therefore, you must commend the Government for what it is doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, the Government has made a proposal to increase the electricity tariffs by 66 per cent. Taking into account the statement by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on diversification, do you not think, as a Government, that 66 per cent is too high and that the cost of production will be so high that the policy of this Government to diversify will not be realised.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) is the authority which looks into electricity tariffs. The modus operandi of this authority is to consult the people. At the same time, we know that Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) must exist. It will collapse if the tariffs are not economic. It is, therefore, a matter of weighing the pros and cons, consulting the people and, of course, looking at the issues you raised concerning the economy and other factors.

Hon. UPND Members: Time!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore the principle is correct.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is a question of timing. These things are being reviewed from time to time. Thank you for assisting me to answer the question.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour, the Vice-President and learned hon. Minister of Justice what plans this Government has in place, if any, to mitigate the impact of the 3,000 jobs that have been lost in Ndola, where Bwana Mkubwa operations have come to a stand still and will not resume because the plant does not process anything but oxides.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I doubt his statistics of 3,000 employees losing their jobs. However, this question on how we will address the job losses in the mining industry and throughout the country is one we have discussed every Friday. Some of the measures were in the President’s Budget Speech. We are trying to diversify the economy.

I thank you, Sir.

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Mr Speaker: Question 192. The Hon. Member for Roan. As the hon. Member for Roan is not in the House, the question has lapsed.

GRANTS TO NATIONAL FIRE SERVICE TRAINING SCHOOL FROM 2005 TO 2008

193. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how much, in grants, was given to the National Fire Service Training School in Kabwe for firemen and women in the following years:

(a) 2005;

(b) 2006;

(c) 2007; and

(d) 2008.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Kabwe National Fire Service Training School received K397,496,682 in grants between 2005 and 2008. The grants were spread as follows:

 Year     Amount (K)

2005  24,000,000

2006  51,417,499

2007  82,079,180

2008 240,000,003

Total     K397,496,682

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, looking at the funding levels, we really have a problem. No wonder we are losing a lot …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is your question?

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, when is this Government going to be serious and allocate more money to this institution so that firemen and women can go for refresher courses?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that this school is for in-service training and the students’ respective councils pay for the service that they receive from this school. As a result, the funds that we release as ministry are just to supplement the funds that are raised from the students that come from various councils as these councils pay for the service that they receive.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to tell me what his ministry is doing about councils which have been given grants for fire engines and are in possession of these engines, but fail to respond in the event of emergencies so that we have to depend on other institutions.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I do not seem to understand that question. The fire engines that have been given in the recent past are in good working condition. If there is any reason that an institution cannot use a particular fire tender, requests are made to the nearest facility where the service can be provided.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, considering the levels of funding, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how they expect efficient and quality training to be effected at this institution.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I have already said that the respective councils pay for the service. Therefore, the funding that we release, as a ministry, is just to supplement.

Sir, these are mainly short courses which take about three months. At least, the funding has enabled the institution conduct training.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, since this training school may not have enough money, will the Ministry of Local Government and Housing ensure that all councils have trained firemen since it has given out a number of fire tenders.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member followed my answer very well, he would have noted that following the release of the fire tenders to various councils, the funding increased from 2007 when it was K82 million to 240 million in 2008. Therefore, we are responding to that issue.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I believe that this is a Government institution. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when this training school will be rehabilitated.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the rehabilitation of infrastructure at the school is already being addressed. Out of the K240 million that was released, part of it was meant for infrastructure rehabilitation.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, this college was once regionally recognised. Countries such as Malawi used to send their nationals to train at this college. Does the Government have any intentions of reviving this college to its former status?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the answer is yes. That is the reason we are increasing the funding.

 I thank you, Sir.

_____

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE ONE-STOP BORDER CONTROL BILL, 2009

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled The One-Stop Border Control Bill to provide for the conclusion of agreements by the Republic of Zambia with neighbouring states on the implementation of one-stop border processing arrangements, give effect to provisions of arrangements on one-stop border posts, authorise the application of the laws of Zambia and the laws of the adjoining states in the one-stop border posts and provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 25th March, 2009. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment ) Bill  so as to revise the provisions relating to the mining of industrial minerals.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 25th March, 2009. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

_____

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON  OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 64 − (Ministry of Works and Supply − K332,623,882,240).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended yesterday, I was saying that the Government is very wasteful.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: The Government is also not serious about starting projects and completing them.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Sir, in 2003, the Government agreed to start constructing a bridge on the Zambezi River in the Zambezi District of North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, in the last Parliament, this Government kept allocating K1 or K2 billion to that bridge each year. Up to now, there is no bridge across the Zambezi River in Zambezi District in North-Western Province.

Mr Mwiimbu: Where is the money?

Mr Kakoma: We do not know where that money was going.

However, some time in 2005, the Government sent some people to carry out a feasibility study. After that feasibility study was done, it has been quiet. The Government spent more than K2 billion in Zambian currency, which is US$500,000 in foreign currency, to conduct that feasibility study. That money has gone down the drain because up to now there is no bridge on the Zambezi River in North-Western Province.

Mrs Musokotwane: Where is the money?

Mr Muntanga: Where is the money?

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, the question is: where has that money been going?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: We, therefore, suspect that this Government is wasteful. If they have not been wasteful, then that money has been squandered.

Hon. UPND Members: Chewed!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, this Government is also not serious about development issues. Just last year, the former Minister of Works and Supply, Hon. Kapembwa Simbao, appeared to be very serious and promised to put a bailey bridge on the Zambezi River. However, to date, after the change of ministers, the new Minister of Works and Supply appears to have diverted that Bailey bridge elsewhere.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: He must tell me where he has taken the bailey bridge that was meant for the Zambezi River.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Question!

Mrs Musokotwane: Balwishe!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, my last point is that when we, the people of North-Western Province, complain about lack of development, particularly about the only major project that is supposed to be done by the Government in North-Western Province, …

Mr Chazangwe: Chavuma!

Mr Kakoma: … the Mutanda/Chavuma Road, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: You have enough time. Continue!

Mr Kakoma: … we expect the Government …

Mrs Musokotwane: To help!

Mr Kakoma: … to respond positively and be serious.

Mrs Musokotwane: Shemuna shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Instead, what we have seen is that the Government does not even want to help their fellow hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers from that province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: They want them to lose the next elections because of this road.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Can you imagine, Mr Chairperson, such good people as Hon. Sayifwanda, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Kabinga Pande, ….

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Konga, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Kalenga, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Tetamashimba, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Bonshe, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Mwanza, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order to be tribal in the manner he is mentioning names ….

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … when there are so many good people from Eastern Province and Chongwe in particular?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, take that point of order into account as you debate.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Kakoma: … Hon. Muchima and Hon. Mukuma are all good people, …

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma … who should be helped to come to back to this House in 2011 by the Government working on the Mutanda/Chavuma Road.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: If this road is not done, all those good ministers will go.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, it is sad for a minister to come to Parliament and debate on the Floor of this House ridiculing the people of North-Western Province …

Mr Mwiimbu: Shame!

Mr Kakoma: … by saying that we must appreciate what is being done by this Government because we the people of North-Western Province are just sanitary engineers.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Shame!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson that is a serious ridicule of the people of North-Western Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kakoma: By interpretation, the people of North-Western Province are not sanitary engineers.

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Mr Kakoma: That, in itself, means that they are just toilet cleaners.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kakoma: They are just people that clean toilets. We are not Nyamazais. That statement by Hon. Friday Malwa, who said, last Wednesday, that we do not develop because we are just sanitary engineers, cannot be accepted.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Kakoma: That is a very serious allegation and statement. I am going to tell the people of North-Western Province that this Government sent Mr Friday Malwa to insult them and we shall take you on in the next elections.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I would like to guide the House that all types of jobs done in this country are important. Therefore, let us not demean any type of work that is done in the country.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief and concentrate mainly on the state of the roads in Zambia.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: Condemn Malwa!

Mr Kapeya: Excuse me, honourable, please.

Mr Chairperson, there is no single district in Zambia that will claim to have good roads today. I am afraid that the damage to the roads in Zambia may soon be declared a national disaster. For this reason, I sympathise with the dear hon. Minister of Works and Supply because the amount of K1.3 trillion allocated to the repair, maintenance and construction of roads in Zambia is a drop in the ocean.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the K1.3 trillion allocated to the Ministry of Works and Supply is for the on-going projects that started in 2007 and 2008. However, the damage to our roads that will occur during the year will not be attended to. Maybe, it will be attended to in the year 2010 or 2011. This is a very sad state of affairs.

Sir, as all of us in this House are aware, Zambia consists of seventy-two districts. If we were to divide K1.3 trillion by seventy-two, each district would have about K18 billion. We can go further to divide the K18 billion by constituencies. For example, in Mpika District, we have three constituencies. If we were to divide K18 billion by three, it would come to K6 billion per constituency. What kind of work can be done from K6 billion?

Three weeks ago, we were told by the Ministry of Works and Supply that it costs K6 billion to do 1 kilometre of tarmac road today. This means that it is only a kilometre that will be done according to the allocation of K6 billion per constituency.

Mr Chairperson, the system we had at independence was that there was a roads department in each district. We then had the councils to do the township and feeder roads. Those who were there like Hon. V. J. Mwaanga and the Deputy Chairperson and not those who were born a few years ago, will agree with me that the system worked very well.
Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the system worked very well when roads departments were in charge of inter-district roads. Between Mpika and Serenje, the roads department in Mpika would do the maintenance of the roads up to the boundary which is the Lukulu River and Serenje Roads Department would take it up to its boundary with Mkushi. The system was very well organised.

Mr Chairperson, district councils were in charge of the township and feeder roads within their boundaries. Unfortunately, when the MMD Government came into power, the donors advised them to do away with the old system and asked the Government to create an entity which would be in charge of the repairs of the roads in the entire Republic, hence, the creation of the Road Development Agency (RDA) which is responsible for the repairs, maintenance and construction of new roads.

Mr Chairperson, we formulated another unit, the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA), which was given the responsibility of sourcing for funds. Unfortunately, there has not been a sound rapport between RDA and NRFA. As a result, RDA would give a contract to a contractor and they would do a good job, but when it comes to payment, the NRFA would not honour the payment.

Mr Chairperson, last week Friday, I was impressed with the hon. Minister of Works and Supply when he toured Chongwe because he also expressed the same sentiments that NRFA was not honouring the works done by various contractors. Even as I speak, in my district, Mpika, a contractor was given a tender to do a 9 kilometre job and it was completed in November last year. RDA inspected the road and certified the works as having been done correctly. I also inspected the road and was very impressed with the work done, but, to date, no payment has been made.

Mr Chairperson, the money involved which has not been paid to the contractor is only K77 million. This is very disappointing.

Hon. Members: Declare interest!

Mr Kapeya: It is really disappointing.

Hon. Member: Ulefwaya ukulyamo?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, even though district councils were appointed as road authorities in 2007, how much funding has been extended to the district councils in Zambia? Completely nothing. Therefore, how do we expect them to perform without funding from RDA or NRFA.

Mr Chairperson, as a country, we need to find a way forward. Although RDA and NRFA are a creation of this Parliament, have they lived up to their expectations?

Hon. Member: No!

Mr Kapeya: The answer is no.

Mr Chairperson, it is said that there is no condition which is permanent. We created the two units, but if we find that they have not lived up to their expectations, we need to find a way forward. We should either do away with them or find alternatives. It is simple. We can merge them so that everything is done under one umbrella. That way, work will be done properly and the situation will be harmonised. Another solution is to go back to the old system of roads departments and making the councils in charge …

Mr Bwalya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, it is not my intention to disrupt the hon. Member who is debating very well.

 Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order not to emphasise that all we need to do is equip local councils with plenty of equipment so that these problem can be solved once and for all?

The Deputy Chairperson: That was a clever way of debating. My ruling is that the hon. Member has debated his point of order. Will the hon. Member on the Floor continue, please.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, in fact, I was just coming to that point.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the ministry should bring back the old system of empowering the roads departments and making them in charge of the inter-district roads. The ministry should also empower the district councils by giving them equipment to work on the township and feeder roads within their boundaries. That way, we will see ourselves doing well.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important vote. This ministry is very dear to most hon. Members from rural areas considering that the road network in the rural areas is not good.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to emphasise the point raised by Hon. Kapeya that the current Transport Act is not as bad as we would like to think. The problem is with its interpretation. The quarrels amongst the RDA, NRFA and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing are as a result of personality problems and the bamba zonke concept.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I hope that the three hon. Ministers will help this country by streamlining these quarrels as quickly as possible. This is because these quarrels are having an effect on the road works in the whole country.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Works and Supply appoints the road authorities. The only difference is that the Ministry of Works and Supply appoints the local authorities as road authorities whilst in the UNIP days or in the previous administrations, the road authorities were already in the Local Government Act. Since the Local Government Act has not changed, the councils remain the road authorities although now they have to be appointed by the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Mr Chairperson, although the local authorities are road authorities, they are not being assisted to perform their functions. I hope the hon. Minister of Works and Supply and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing will deal with this problem because I failed to when I was Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Sichilima: Limbi kuti wabwela!

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I wish to plead with the Government, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to increase the allocation to road works in the rural areas, and here I am talking about feeder roads. The allocation which is there translates to K2 billion for each province. Your Honour the Vice-President, with the equipment which we have, the implication is that this money will only last for one month. After that, the equipment which we have worked very hard to purchase will lie unutilised. As I speak, some of this equipment is lying idle. What is wrong with us?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Are we serious about infrastructure development or improving the road network? K2 billion per province is not enough. Therefore, can we find money before it is too late so that we put money where it is needed the most?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the Government for ensuring that it constructs offices in Chongwe this year. There has been a problem in Chongwe because the offices the Government has been using belong to the council. Now that the Government is going to construct offices for its administration, those offices will be released to the council and I am happy about that.

Sir, we have three boards, namely: NRFA, RDA and the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA). The committees of these boards are too big. We should not even blame the Executive because that Act was enacted in this House. The problem is that when Bills are brought to the House, sometimes we do not read them, as hon. Members of Parliament, and we do not assist the Executive come up with correct policies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, it is important that, as hon. Members of Parliament, including Ministers, we are very attentive when a Bill is brought to the House. This is because this Transport Act was approved by this House. When you look at the functions of these agencies, you wonder whether we should have three of them.

Hon. Opposition Member: It is irrelevant.

Mrs Masebo: There is also a Committee of Ministers which finds it very difficult to meet because each of them is very busy. Therefore, you find that you have just created agencies that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

You find that you are just milking in terms of administrative costs. So much money is spent on administration while the real work of grading the roads has no money. This is because we have to find money to pay the boards which meet everyday.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, I want to appeal to the Government to consider reviewing the Transport Act. As the hon. Member for Mpika Central said, if you come up with a law and find that it is not serving you well, then bring it back to the House. We should not be ashamed to do that.

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mrs Masebo: Let us bring it back to the House and amend it so that we can save money. Where there are conflicts, let us remove them. Let us also use simple English so that people can understand the role of the council, RDA and NRFA. However, if you asked me, I would say that some of those agencies are not even necessary.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: They are irrelevant. They are just a cost and jobs for the boys ...

Hon. Opposition Members: And girls.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo:  … and girls.

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: There is another point which I would like the hon. Minister to listen carefully to, through you, Mr Chairperson. Every time hon. Members ask him a question concerning roads in their areas which had been planned for but have not been worked on, he says that they should use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I want to tell him that he must not respond like that ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … because the CDF was not meant for capital projects.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, we are misdirecting ourselves. The CDF was meant for micro-projects.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, what I have seen, even in my constituency, is that money that is meant to go to communities for micro-projects, whether it is in the health or education sectors, is now being diverted to capital projects such as the construction of teachers’ houses and classrooms and grading of roads. That money is not enough. This means that the purpose of the CDF is being changed.

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mrs Masebo: Let us put money in the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Hon. Government Member: Yes, or get a loan.

Mrs Masebo: Let us put money where it is required so that the roads can be worked on. At the moment, I have a lot of problems in my constituency because in the last elections, I went around telling people to vote.

Major Chizhyuka: For who?

Mrs Masebo: For Hon. Banda, of course.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: I told them that when you vote, these roads will be done as the graders are already here. This is a fact. I am sure they are listening because that is exactly what I told them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mrs Masebo: I told them the roads were bad, but the Government had bought equipment to repair them and, therefore, they would be worked on very soon. I urged them to go ahead and vote and said that we could not work on the roads during the elections, but would do so after the elections. After the elections, the trucks are still there.

Hon. Members: The graders.

Mrs Masebo: The graders. We are told that the ministry has no money for the graders to start operating.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Worse still, …

Mr Muntanga: You were dismissed.

Mrs Masebo: Iwe.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: … some of the equipment does not even have drivers. For example, for Chongwe District and Lusaka Province there are four graders which are parked and only two drivers. The reason for this is that there is no money.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Surely, you do not have to be a genius. How can we spend so much money to buy equipment that comes and lies idle? It is because we do not seem to know where our money should go. Therefore, can we, please, make use of this equipment. It is not too late. We should not just rubber stamp the Budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: If it makes sense, let us all agree to increase the allocation to this activity so that this equipment can work for twelve months.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Otherwise, we are going to be considered as big jokers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the other point which I think is very important …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mrs Masebo: Do not worry.

Mr Muntanga: Go ahead.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the other point that I wanted to raise with regard to the Ministry of Works and Supply, is that the contractors being engaged by the ministry are a problem. We seem to engage contractors who are disappointing the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Year in year and year out, the Government spends huge sums of money, but the workmanship is poor. I will give you a very simple example of the Chalimbana/Mulalika Road in Chongwe. Every year, money is allocated to this road, but after six months it cannot be seen. This road, which is a major road for farmers, is now a wreck, and this is at a time when we are going into the marketing season. It is like a river. They have created a hole on the main road and one side is higher than the other. When it rains, cars and buses are not able to pass. Therefore, when buses pass, the passengers insult us every day. When somebody came to tell me that people insult me, I said they were right to insult me because I told them to vote because we were going to work on the roads. Now, I have failed to work on the roads. Therefore, why should they not insult me? Therefore, please, prevent me from being insulted …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … by ensuring that the road is worked on. Please, His Honour the Vice-President, the Chalimbana/Mulalika Road in Chongwe is a disaster. We can use money from the Office of the Vice-President to work on the road since it is a disaster.

Lastly, but not the least, it is important to agree, as hon. Members of Parliament, that we all want the roads to be worked on. Therefore, let us ensure that the fuel levy goes to the roads. It will not do for us to collect fuel levy while the roads remain poor. Let us give the councils money for the roads and ensure that the NRFA gives the RDA funds to work on the major roads. Where the council lacks capacity, RDA can come in to help. Let us not hide behind the issue of capacity. I am aware that RDA has been poaching engineers from the councils. The RDA did not have the capacity, but it has built its capacity by stealing from the councils. Therefore, what capacity are we talking about?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, stealing in that context …

Mrs Masebo: Sorry. Thank you for your guidance, Mr Chairperson. They have been poaching engineers from the councils to capacitate themselves. They should not do that. Instead, they should assist the councils by ensuring that the councils have enough resources for the roads. Otherwise, we are going to say that the issuance of road licences should be taken back to the councils. We brought it to the centre because we wanted the money to be shared equally by the districts because in some areas like Serenje where His Honour the Vice-President comes from, there are only two vehicles.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: If we said that Serenje should issue road licences, it would not have any money. Therefore, we agreed that the centre should collect all the money and share it among the districts, but we are not seeing the money go to Serenje. Therefore, please, can we make sure that the money goes to Serenje and Chongwe.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. There is admittedly a problem between the two agencies under the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: These agencies are the NRFA and RDA. Since the problem has been identified, as hon. Members of Parliament, we can only assist the ministry by making proposals. Hence, the first proposal I am going to make is that the NRFA should be disbanded.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: The role of NRFA is to act as a conduit for money that is raised by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Do we really need this conduit?

Hon. Opposition Members: We do not.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.:  We do not. If we do not need this agency, why can we not create a desk at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning where an officer can be stationed to take care of the functions that are currently being performed by this agency? We have to bear in mind that this is just a conduit, but the chief executive officer of this organisation, which is a hindrance to road development in this country, earns more than K25 million per month for standing in the way of road development. Do we really need this?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.:  This is a ‘roadblock’ to road development in the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.:  The earlier the ‘roadblock’ which has been identified is removed, the better for us all. To crown it all, the chief executive officer of RDA, who does the bulk of the work, earns K20 million while the chief executive officer manning the ‘roadblock’ to road development earns K25 million. That is the problem. We do not need ‘roadblocks’.

Mr Syakalima interjected.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Having talked about the problem that is there and made a proposal on how to resolve it, I would like to make an alternative proposal. This proposal is that NRFA should be a department within RDA. Once that is done, the problems that the hon. Minister of Works and Supply has, in terms of road development, will be over and all of us will rally solidly behind him.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Although at a safe distance.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, may I now turn to the Eastern Province. I would like to urge the hon. Minister that there is great need to link the Eastern, Northern and Central provinces. We can link Eastern Province to Central Province through Serenje. I appeal to RDA, which is under this ministry, to consider this seriously. There is need to create a link between Petauke and Serenje. Secondly, I would like to appeal for the creation of a link between Eastern and Northern provinces. This can be done by working on the road between Chama and Chinsali via Matumbo.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: This road is extremely important to the people of Eastern Province. We have now stopped crying and do not intend to cry again. If the Government does not do what we are asking to be done, …

Mr Muntanga: They will be out!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … it should be reminded that the time for crying is over. We shall act to ensure that we are also considered as people who deserve development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: The Eastern Province can also be linked to Northern Province by connecting Chama to Muyombe and then to Isoka. Therefore, there is need to create a ‘Top Road’. I always talk about the need for the Bottom Road to be rehabilitated and I am not changing my stance. That road would have been finished by now if resources were put where development is needed.

Sir, however, wherever there is a bottom, there is always a top.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister is that it is about time that the top was taken care of because the brain is located at the top.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: For this reason, it is absolutely important to ensure that a ‘Top Road’ is created.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: I would also like to appeal for the road linking Lundazi to Malawi to be attended to.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, the concept …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, is the debater, who is a State Counsel, from what I understand, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: He comes from Lundazi.

Major Chizhyuka: … and comes from Lundazi where The Chairperson also comes from …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think you are beginning to go out of order.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Is he in order to make a comparison between the bottom and top with a pejorative connotation …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … when, in fact, the concept of the Bottom Road is associated with the geographical position of a valley which always lies at the bottom of plateaux and mountains? Is he is order to associate his top to the brain …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka:  … and to what is he associating …
Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Major Chizhyuka: … the bottom?

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Is he in order to continue debating in that manner trying to raise unnecessary emotions?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You have made your point of order. Hon. Member for Chasefu, can you take that point of order into consideration as you debate.

You may continue.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I will definitely take it into account.

Sir, I was submitting that there is need for the Ministry of Works and Supply to ensure that the road that links Lundazi to Malawi is worked on. That road is not more than 20 kilometres. To have a road that links one country to another in the condition that this road is forty-five years after independence, speaks volumes of our ability to improve the welfare of our people.

There is also great need to link Lundazi to a town called Genda in Malawi.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.:  There has always been a road between the two towns, but unfortunately, it has suffered years of neglect. It is about time that this hardworking hon. Minister paid attention to this road. It is a road upon which the economy of Lundazi depends because the people of this town conduct a lot of trade with Malawi. However, this road is completely dilapidated.

Sir, I wish to emphasise that there is need for the ‘Top Road’ to be given much attention because it will not only link Lundazi to Northern Province, but also Northern Province to Tanzania. Therefore, it is a very important lifeline when it comes to trade between the two countries.

I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

The Minister for Presidential Affairs (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this chance to support the vote for the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Mr Chairperson, this Government is determined to ensure that all parts of the country are considered in terms of development. Road development is cardinal as we try to place agriculture as a priority to boost the economy of this country. Therefore, no province is being neglected. Indeed, the people of North-Western Province are very important. The Chavuma Road has been talked about several times and this Government has done some good work on that road.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to agree with your ruling concerning the statement by the hon. Member for Zambezi West. I have worked in North-Western Province and the people of that area are, indeed, very good people. The statement that the people of North-Western Province are sanitary engineers is misplaced.

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!
Mr Namulambe: As a Government, we are not party to that view. On behalf of the Government, I would like to apologise to the people of North-Western Province because that is not the Government’s position. The statement by the hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services was misplaced cousinship which, I think, was not supposed to be made on the Floor of this House. We sincerely apologise for that.

I hope Hon. Kakoma, my senior cousin, will be able to convey the message to the people of North-Western Province, …

Hon. UPND Members: It is too late!

Mr Namulambe: … the Luvales and Lundas.

Mr Sichilima: Quality!

Mr Namulambe: I worked so well with them and all of us in the Government are still working so well with them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson …

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Why are you saying, “Aah”? Over twelve people have debated.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I understand your feelings. Unfortunately, we have to move on. I deliberately allowed more than twelve people to speak on this vote because of the passion hon. Members have with regard to this vote. However, I am sorry we have to move on.

Mrs Musokotwane: Gender!

The Deputy Chairperson: As regards gender, Hon. Masebo spoke.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): I must, in the preamble, express my gratitude to all those who have debated. Most of you have been very supportive although some of you felt very emotionally attached to some projects. I understand and welcome that commitment.

I would like to assure the House that, as a ministry, we have decided to work very closely with you and will be with you in your constituencies. I recall that when we were had a workshop, I explained that we would come to your constituencies. Unfortunately, I heard that Hon. Masiye was offended by that decision. However, that is the only way we can identify problems together.

Last weekend, I went to Itezhi Tezhi with Hon. Beene and we worked very closely. We saw his roads and, in the process, identified solutions to help reduce the difficulties. I would like to assure you, hon. Members, that the tours to your constituencies are intended to build you and create opportunities for yourselves and ourselves to mitigate the difficulties.

The hon. Deputy Minister in my ministry is travelling to the Northern Province this weekend. Next weekend, I will be travelling to Luapula Province. We are continuing to visit you so that we can see the projects first hand. We receive reports from the operatives, but we are convinced that by seeing the projects physically, we will be able to identify the bottlenecks. For instance, when we went  to Itezhi -Tezhi, we discovered that even though people are saying CDF must not be used for that purpose, in Itezhi-Tezhi they took K30 million from the CDF and hired graders to work on 35 kilometres of road. As a result, vehicles can now travel on the road without any difficulty. This refutes the whole argument that CDF cannot be used for that purpose. When I say that you must use part of the CDF, it so that you mitigate immediate problems. Instead of waiting for a contractor to come from Lusaka, it is possible to hire a grader from the local resources and do some of the small works.

Under the Road Sector Investment Programme (ROADSIP) II only 40,000 kilometres of road network in Zambia is covered while 27,000 kilometres of that is intended to be taken care of by the Government through yourselves. For instance, if you have a small bridge that has been washed away in a place like Nabwalya, it will be too expensive to mobilise a contractor from Lusaka to go and work on it. With the equipment that we have in the provinces and the provincial roads engineers and whatever authorities we have in the local councils, it will be quicker to mobilise the local contractors or community to begin to look at this infrastructure.

 Please, when we say, let us use the resources available to us in the respective areas, we are saying the same thing as those who are saying the roads departments are responsible for the highways and the councils are the authorities for these roads because that is their responsibility. We are saying the same thing except that we have to be practical and pragmatic so that we can move our development agenda together.

I am grateful to Hon. Mooya for all the things that he said. I would like to assure him that we have taken note of all that he has brought before this House and they will be attended to at an appropriate time. Hon. Musosha, thank you very much. I understand that you are deeply involved with these problems. Besides being a Minister, you are also a contractor like you said and you are feeling the pain.

Sir, we will do everything we can on the question of advance payments to contractors. We are mindful of the fact that there could have been some abuse, but we cannot punish every contractor because of abuse by a few contractors. We will insist that the supervisors, who are the consultants, become responsible enough not to certify jobs that have not been done properly. I would like to appeal to fellow Zambian contractors that they can only build capacity by doing quality work so that they are paid in time because we want them to grow.

We are considering the possibility of requesting major contractors who have the equipment and technical know-how to carry the small contractors on board as subcontractors so that they can help them build capacity and allow them to use their equipment for a while so that when they have sufficient money, they can buy their own equipment. We will condemn what they have done, but we are also mindful of the fact that we should not throw the baby in the dirty water. It is possible there could be bad elements, but, at the same time, we must help build capacity of the good elements so that Zambian contractors can also grow.

Hon. Chitika I am very grateful for your support. I know we have worked together for a long time. Like I said, I am on my way to Luapula and if it is possible for you to be in Luapula, I would like to see you there so that we can look at your roads together.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Hon. Imasiku I am grateful for your support. I like your magnanimity and your nationalist approach in matters of development. I do hope that those who were listening took a leaf from you that besides requesting for roads in your constituency, you also recognised the fact that we do not have enough resources to attend to your constituency alone because we also have to work on the roads in other constituencies. I am very grateful for that.

Hon. Mushili, Member of Parliament for Ndola Central, I am grateful for your support. I am also aware of the fact that you are very angry about the existence of RDA. Well, it was created by this House and no institution is perfect. Again, I would like to state that the RDA has been beneficial in some ways. It has created capacity on behalf of the Government on how to tender correctly. It has also created an opportunity for local contractors to learn how to tender and appreciate how to compete because, at the end of the day, we need institutions that will be able to guide the contractors in the industry. If there are any difficulties that are there, we shall address them as opposed to abolishing the institution. If we abolish RDA, we will have to start all over again by taking that responsibility to a Government department which will have to be created again. We have an institution already in existence and if we are encountering problems, we must address them.

Hon. Masebo rightly said that we should build capacity in the local authorities. These are some of the problems that we are facing. I attended a workshop in Livingstone for all directors of roads and town engineers. I asked some of the directors how possible it was to enter the city without seeing a road sign anywhere within the city or town. It means the director is not active enough. Therefore we will need to build capacity for the councils to be able to supplement the work that RDA does so that we are all taken on board. I would like to appeal to the hon. Members of the House that besides being hon. Members of Parliament, they are also councillors. At the end of the day, they have a responsibility to ensure that capacity building is done in the local authorities.

Sir, I have seen that there is a proposal for the establishment of a Local Government Service Commission which will be responsible for the employing and transfer of workers in the councils. The current situation is that when a council employs an engineer or accountant, if he does not perform, they are stuck with him unless they fire him. If you look at the conditions of service that they enjoy, when a council dismisses a town clerk, it is as good as declaring itself insolvent. This is because the cost of getting rid of these people under their current conditions of service is too high for the councils. These are issues that we must look at. We do hope that with the coming of the Local Government Service Commission, we will be able to reach a level where if we notice a person has not performed in one area because, maybe, the council is too large for him/her, they can be moved to a smaller council where they will be able to tick.

Hon. Kakoma, was very dramatic as usual.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mulongoti: I know that having been an editor of a newspaper, he carries that criticism with him as an hon. Member of Parliament. However, I would like to acknowledge the things he said. I can assure you that we are with you.

Mr Muntanga: Are you agreeing?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Be careful.

Mr Mulongoti: In the last year alone, there has been development on the road that he talked about. Last year alone, thirty-eight kilometres of tarmac were done…

Mr Kakoma: Only!

Mr Mulongoti: … and 160 kilometres of gravel were done in preparation for the tarmac. I ask my dear brother to understand. North-Western Province, as you know, gave us a lot of votes. Do you think we can neglect such a province?

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: I know for you, as…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order hon. Minister!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I know you want to convince the people of North-Western Province, but I thought that the Government should not take development to areas just because of their votes. Otherwise, you will create a problem for yourself.
You may continue.

Mr Mulongoti: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was only telling Hon. Kakoma that we have North-Western Province in mind. That other issue is besides the point.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: The feasibility study was done. Once a feasibility study has been done, it does not mean that the contractors will move on site immediately. The project must be in the queue like the rest of the projects. There are many other parts of Zambia which require bridges and as soon as the money is there, it will be done.

The question of a bailey bridge depends on the length because the distance from one side of the river to the other could be too long and it would not be safe to put up a bailey bridge. The engineers will advise whether to put up a bailey bridge or wait until there is money to construct the main bridge. In the meantime, they can use the pontoon. I can assure you that you have not been forgotten.

Sir, I would like to thank Hon. Kapeya very much for all the things he said. However, I must also appeal to him that the question of the RDA and NRFA may create a wrong impression. The hon. Member for Chasefu also said that they belong to the ministry, but the two belong to separate ministries. The NRFA falls under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the RDA falls under my ministry. Whatever difficulties that are there will definitely be resolved. Since we have acknowledged them, it is important that we attend to them as there are no bottlenecks and we can move quickly.

I am against the idea of going straight for abolition because this has its own consequences. It took us a lot of time to create these institutions. We have spent a lot of money building capacity in these institutions and, therefore, we must try, first of all, to see whether we can take advantage of their benefits and address the issue of their joint function.

I wish to thank Hon. Masebo very much for what she said. I know she tried very hard when she was the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to bring harmony between these two different institutions, but I can assure you that nothing will be left unattended to. We hope that we can bring harmony and more so for the councils. I think the big problem we have now is not so much NRFA and RDA, but the councils. We need to build capacity in the councils. With your support, we expect that to be…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.
 
Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was talking about NRFA and RDA. Although Hon. Chifumu Banda is not here, he talked about the disparities in the emoluments of the chief executives of RDA and NRFA. Funds permitting, we will ensure that we find a way of harmonising this.

Sir, with regard to the need for the roads in areas such as Chasefu, Lundazi, Chinsali and Muyombe to be worked on, this is in our programme.

Finally, I would like to thank the hon. Members for their support. I do hope that with this support, we can go far together.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 64/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 64/02 – (Ministry of Works and Supply – Buildings Department – K246,233,811,544).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 2, Programme 11, Activity 02 – Construction of New Office Block in Kazungula District. This activity has not been allocated any funds this year, and yet last year, K1,billion was allocated to it. Have they finished building this office block and where have they built it because I do not see it anywhere in Kazungula?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, we had difficulties securing a contractor last year because of the ban. Therefore, this project is still in our books. If that is sorted out, we intend to proceed with building offices in Kazungula as well as Mambwe districts.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Vote 64/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K1,067,259,617,403).                                                                                 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour to stand before this august House to deliver a statement on the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry for the period 1st January, to 31st December, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement of my ministry is to preserve, protect, and defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to maintain peace and security for all our citizens and other residents.

In my speech for last year, before this august House, I explained the challenges my ministry faces to adequately fulfill its mandate. Through interventions from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, it is hoped that the long-term programme to re-equip and modernise our defence forces shall continue. The modernisation of the defence forces will be broken into three components as follows:

 (a) infrastructure development;

 (b) equipment and spares; and

(c) training.

Mr Chairperson, despite the financial challenges my ministry faces, we shall continue to perform a number of core functions that include patrols throughout various border points, inter-joint permanent commissions with other security wings of the Government, promotion of defence and security co-operation with neighbouring countries through joint permanent commissions, air surveillance, participating in international joint operations organised through such organs as the African Union (AU), United Nations (UN) and the Southern African Development Community (SADC). These interactions result into, among other things, the peaceful settlement of disputes and the promotion of peace and security.

Mr Chairperson, with these introductory remarks, I now highlight the Budget performance for 2008 and the salient features of my ministry’s Budget for 2009.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry had an approved Budget Estimate of K981.9 billion in the year ended 31st December, 2008, and received a supplementary provision of K59.9 billion bringing the total authorised to K1 trillion.

Mr Chairman, while my ministry’s Budget for 2008 looks huge in relation to that of other ministries, it was not adequate to meet our national financial obligations. One big challenge that we faced and still face, is the servicing of utility bills. To this end, my ministry has come up with a draft proposal to introduce payment of fixed utility allowances to service personnel. These await discussion with stakeholders for possible implementation.

 However, my ministry was still able to achieve, among others, the following:

(a) paid K15 billion towards outstanding personnel related claims to various service personnel;

(b) procured a block of flats, rehabilitated student hostels and constructed mini-hospitals in various cantonments;

(c) procured vehicles and military equipment for the service; and

(d) developed an HIV and Aids work place policy.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry continued to spend over 80 per cent of its budget on personal emoluments. This shows the challenges the Government is still facing in financing the ministry’s operations. The increase in personal emoluments is as a result of the 15 per cent increase awarded for salaries for Public Service personnel.

Mr Chairperson, as earlier stated, the ministry, through the defence services, shall continue with military patrols of our common borders with neighbouring countries, notably in the Western, North-Western, Luapula and Northern provinces. These will include securing the air space and guarding strategic national installations.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation of recurrent departmental charges (RDCs) shall be used in the running of the ministry and the services.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry shall continue procuring food rations for the defence personnel as part of their conditions of service. In addition, my ministry shall strive to procure appropriate goods and services for efficient and effective operations.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry shall continue to take steps to build housing units for our service personnel which currently are grossly inadequate.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry shall continue to procure specialised military equipment and maintain the existing ones.

The ministry shall continue to foster bilateral relations with our neighbours through the holding of joint permanent commissions on defence and security in 2009. The defence services shall continue to participate in peace-keeping operations as earlier stated under the auspices of the AU, SADC and the UN to which Zambia is a member. Through these operations, our troops are exposed to different military tactics and use of modern military equipment. In this ever changing world, our troops need to be exposed to modern methods of defending the state. It is through this capacity building that the efficiency of the ministry and service delivery shall be improved.

This year, the ministry plans to carry out recruitment of military personnel in the Zambia Air Force (ZAF), the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and the Zambia Army. To this end, the services shall ensure that equitable employment opportunities continue to exist for all citizens regardless of gender, race, ethnic group, place of origin, religion or culture.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Defence is committed to the promotion of gender equality and equity among defence personnel. This is why we intend to put in place a gender policy. In addition, the sensitisation of senior service personnel on gender issues in the work place and the importance of women’s participation in decision-making shall continue.
 
Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the ZNS Land Development Branch, has continued to contribute to the improvement of food production and security. We aim at increasingly contributing to the attainment of national food security.

Further, we shall continue to repair and maintain the existing equipment in the ZNS which is used for the maintenance of feeder roads and other infrastructure countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, my ministry shall aim at performing its functions effectively and efficiently in fulfilling its mandate. I, therefore, suggest and call upon all the hon. members of this august House to support my ministry’s budget estimates for 2009 as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the vote on the Floor of this House. In supporting the vote, I would like to convey my condolences to the family of the late Lieutenant-General Christon Tembo and the entire defence forces. Indeed, we have lost a great man and leader for that matter.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Bwalya: He was also a great commander. I am sure that the late Lieutenant-General Christon Tembo was one of the best commanders that Zambia has ever produced.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: I also believe that he was one of the best commanders in Africa. May his soul rest in peace.

Sir, I noted in the Yellow Book that the budgetary allocation to food and ration for the defence forces has been increased. Indeed, this is a very good move because we have to feed our defence personnel in order to make them happy because this will improve the morale in the defence forces.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I would also like to inform the hon. Minister that I am a bit disappointed with the manner in which the allocation to house rentals for officers in the defence forces has kept increasing.  Why should we pay a colossal sum of money to rent houses for our defence forces because I believe that they have all the infrastructure? Why not acquire land to construct houses for these officers? We have the necessary manpower in the defence forces. We have bricklayers, carpenters and many others who can construct these houses. There is a budgetary allocation of K3 billion for rentals this year and K2.7 billion was allocated last year. Let us be serious because I believe we can use this money to build houses for these officers.

Sir, I have also noticed that the acquisition of plant and equipment has only been allocated K944 million. Today, we are talking about diversifying our economy. How do we diversify our economy if we only allocate K944 million to plant and equipment? Which plant and equipment are we going to acquire to start with? We need to repair the plant equipment and I believe this amount of money will not go anywhere. We have all the plant and equipment at ZNS and one engineering regiment in Mufulira. I am sure if we have to diversify our economy, we need to bring all these on board so that we have hope.

I heard the hon. Minister of Works Supply say that some bridges and roads in Nabwalya have been washed away. Why can we not use these soldiers? Why not use ZNS to do these jobs? If we involved the defence forces, we would save money, especially in the rural areas. A lot of bridges have been washed away and people in those areas produce a lot of food. Sir, for them to have access to the markets, we need to construct some improvised bridges and roads.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Again, I am asking the hon. Minister why we do not get the defence forces, especially ZNS and one engineering regiment, to do these jobs? I thing we will save money if we use ZNS rather than private contractors to construct these roads and bridges. In my debate last year, I emphasised that the Zambia Army, especially one engineering regiment, constructed more than seventy-two improvised bridges in Muyombe District. Why are we not using them now? Why are we using private contractors when we know that we will lose huge sums of money? Do we have an interest in the contracts being given? That remains to be seen. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, I am happy to note that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice talked about the Mupepetwe Project. Yes, that is a viable project to this country and huge sums of money were used to construct it. I believe that since this project is in His Honour the Vice-President’s constituency, he will be able to do something. This is one of the projects which can create a lot of employment in that area. This project has machinery which is able to make bolts and nuts, but it is lying idle.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the UN. Let me take advantage of this chance to congratulate some hon. Members of this House, Hon. Vernon Mwaanga, Hon. Ben Mwila and Hon Katele Kalumba. These are the men who brought the initiative of UN peace-keeping missions to Zambia. This initiative was not there in the First Republic because they thought that if they sent the men and women in uniform on UN peace-keeping missions, they would be exposed to international standards. In turn, maybe, they would rise against the Government. In the Second Republic, when these gallant men came into power, they introduced this initiative of sending soldiers on UN peace-keeping missions.

Sir, through you, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to take advantage of this initiative and send more soldiers on peace-keeping missions. Let it be extended to ZNS. It is only in Zambia where only defence personnel are sent on UN peace-keeping missions. In some developed countries, they send home guards and not real soldiers. They do so because they want to ensure that even home guards are exposed and acquire some money to up-lift their living standards. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to extend this initiative to ZNS because, in that way, we will be training and exposing more people to international standards.

Mr Chairperson, still on the UN, I am not sure why we have not done much to rehabilitate some of our military cantonments. I believe we get some money from the UN. They pay for whatever equipment is sent on UN missions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Why do we not use that money to maintain our barracks? We can construct wall fences to avoid exposing our military equipment. We have even been exposing our men and women in the barracks. There is no respect and dignity in the barracks.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief.

Laughter

Mr Bwalya: Sir, with regard to the diversification of the economy, we should use the military personnel to assist us diversify our economy. There is a transport section in the Zambia Army. In the rural areas, people grow food, but there is a problem transporting it to the market. The Zambia Army has a transport section in Lusaka, but we are not making use of it. This section can be used to collect produce from the rural areas. This is the system that was in place in the first Republic when soldiers used to collect food from the rural areas.

Sir, lastly, I would like to talk about the monthly pension that retirees from the defence forces receive.

Mr Lubinda: Like yourself!

Mr Bwalya: You will find that they receive K60,000 or K116,000 per month. What is that? Surely, are we being fair to these people? What can someone who has six children and grandchildren do with K60,000? Through you, I appeal to the Ministry of Defence to review these conditions.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East): Mr Chairperson, may I start by declaring interest because I am a professional soldier who served this Government diligently for twenty years. Therefore, I am very conversant with issues of defence.

Sir, I believe that the role of the army, apart from providing security from external invasion, is to provide a service for the Zambian citizens. I do realise that the Zambia Army, ZAF and ZNS have very important roles to play in the country. However, currently, this is not being done because of the Government’s approach to these arms of Government. I believe that for now, they seem not to have any role to play because we are not utilising them. We have not put them to their full use.

Mr Chairperson, during our time, soldiers lived in military cantonments. Soldiers made sure that by 2300 hours, they were back in the camp. Wherever you were, you knew that by 2300 hours, you should get back to the camp. What I see now is different. We have battalions in Chawama, Mtendere, Soweto and all over. How do you expect to mobilise your men in times of war?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: Sir, I remember very well that during the time of former President Kaunda, there was a deliberate move to decongest Arakan Barracks by creating L85 so that Arakan Barracks remained the headquarters for administrative purposes only. It was suggested that the fighting troops be kept out of town and they introduced a barracks in Lusaka West. From 1986 to date, it has not been completed. During the tours of our Committee, I was privileged to visit that place. They are sharing it with the civilian population. There is really nothing happening.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, there was another initiative by the air force to create the Twin Palm Transmitters Camp which from inception to date, they are using their own initiative to build one house per month from their own resources. I can see that there is K3,076,235,294 for rentals. Why should we pay so much money on rentals when you already have land to build on? We have projects that we started that have not been completed. I believe I should give advice to the hon. Minister. That money you are spending on rentals for the officers can be used to complete the projects that Dr Kaunda started.

Mr Lubinda: Mpombo, do you hear that!

Mr Katuka: You should be able to control your men. I realise that the soldiers out there do not seem to be useful because we have not put them to use. The definition of peace by this Government is the absence of war. That is not correct. Whether there is no war, peace is only enjoyed when the Zambian citizens can sleep soundly and know that the cars they have parked outside are safe.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: If a woman can walk on the street with her handbag and not fear that it will be snatched by a thief, then that is peace. If there is no external invasion, then we should maintain local peace. We should use our soldiers to maintain the peace in the country. I will suggest to the hon. Minister to try to unleash the soldiers on the streets for six months. There will be sanity in this country. The police, air force and army used to have combined operations in order to control traffic, man roadblocks and conduct clean ups, but that is no longer happening. If you go to the Ministry of Defence, they will say, “We are not part of the Ministry of Home Affairs.” The Ministry of Home Affairs will also say the same. This Government intends to buy planes for the …

Mr Muntanga: For the police.

Mr Katuka:  … police. What are they for when there are planes in the air force which are lying idle? If these ministries worked together, those aeroplanes could be used in their operations.

Mr Muntanga: Do you hear that?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Muntanga, can you not just give him the chance to debate?

Laughter

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, I was telling the hon. Minister that the confusion and traffic jams on our streets can be contained. The hon. Minister has told us on the Floor of this House that the police are under-staffed. They do not have manpower. We have a large standing army which can be utilised to bring sanity to the country. If you unleash the soldiers for six months only, the face of this country will change. This is because if there is a force that is still disciplined, it is the army. I know that the police has been infiltrated.

Interruptions

Mr Katuka: Yes, I know what I am talking about. They know how some of the criminal activities are happening and who are involved, but they will not allow you to reach the culprits. I know that the army still maintains discipline. A soldier can be used in any way you want and can work wherever you want him to. However, we are not using the army to our best benefit. As a soldier who has been involved, I know what I am talking about. The engineering is something else, but I am primarily a soldier. We have not looked after our army properly. We need to do a lot more to bring sanity to this country.

There are so many car parks in town today because nobody can park his car outside their home and expect to find it the following morning. Cell phones are snatched on the streets. A disorganised neighbouring country has unleashed its soldiers on the streets. If you go to that country and park your car outside and even leave the keys in the ignition, you will find it the following morning. Yet, we say there is peace in Zambia. What peace is there if the people are not free in their own country?

Sir, the Lieutenant-General there knows that the air force is not what it used to be. The soldiers used to work 24 hours a day. Now they knock off at 13 hours because the Government cannot feed them.

Laughter

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Katuka: That is a fact.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, we have a lot of work to do.

Mr Lubinda: Is that true?

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, I would like to repeat what I said earlier. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Defence to complete the project in Twin palm and L85. They started in 1986, but up to now, nothing has been done. This is the only way we can remove our uniformed men and women from Chawama, Mtendere and Kalikiliki and put them in military cantonments where we will be able to control them.

Hon. MMD Members: Finally!

Mr Katuka: I will finish, do not worry.

Mr Muntanga: Why do you want to finish. Do not finish. Continue.

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I am aware that the Government intends to recruit. However, I would like to advise you that recruitment is not the solution to our problem. It is just reducing the high unemployment levels in the country. What is important for now is to have a well trained and well equipped army.

For now, our men in uniform have no equipment and transport. Even if we recruit, how is it going to help us? Recruiting is not the solution. I know that the Government is doing this to reduce the unemployment levels in the country. If we cannot look after the ones we have, why should we recruit some more? Firstly, we need to sort out the mess that the defence forces are going through. You need to find them transport and communication equipment before you can think of recruiting.

Mr Chairperson, modern warfare does not require a large army. It requires a well trained, well equipped and well maintained army. If we can train and accommodate our soldiers properly, they will be able to deliver. We now use them for peace-keeping, flag mounting and the official opening of Parliament, when they can do a lot more. I would like to tell you, hon. Minister, that in the army, every ministry represented here is available. There is the hon. Minister of Works and Supply and the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport. All the ministries are there. Therefore, they are able to run a country and you should use them.

Hon. MMD Member: Finally!

Mr Muntanga: No, continue.

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, last but not the least, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister, once more, to increase the allocation to this ministry in the next budget because I know that, with this meagre funding, we are not solving the problems affecting the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this vote.

Sir, I would like to indicate that I have one interest, an issue that has been talked about by the two hon. Members who have already debated. This is the issue pertaining to accommodation for the soldiers.

Mr Chairperson, I am a member of the Government Assurances Committee. In 2007, we visited the Twin Palm area, L85 and the ZNS Camp just next to it, where we went to check on the accommodation for soldiers. Suffice to say, it was a touching experience to see the living conditions of our soldiers. It was and still is very sad. I feel that these soldiers need to be treated humanely, but I do not see the Government doing that.

Sir, last year, I had the opportunity to chair the Government Assurances Committee. When we called the witnesses from the Ministry of Defence, we asked them about soldiers’ accommodation. The revelations from the witnesses were that of despair. As a result, the Committee felt that it was necessary to convene in camera and discuss the issue, which we did to some length. We called the Secretary to the Treasury because the non-implementation of this project touched on the non-availability of funds, which, though budgeted for, could not be released to the Ministry of Defence. We called the two parties and your Committee intervened successfully and we learned later that actually the K20 billion that was allocated in 2007 and 2008 were finally released. However, to my surprise, even though K20 billion was budgeted for last year, I have noticed that only K5 billion was used, meaning that K15 billion was surrendered to the Treasury when there is a dire need of accommodation for our soldiers.  What is happening? Besides, this year, under infrastructure development, not a single ngwee has been allocated. Are we really serious that we will provide our soldiers with accommodation? I would like the hon. Minister of Defence to indicate what is happening. I am sure that the hon. Member who just debated, whom I surrendered the chairmanship to, being a professional soldier, who I will call a mercenary, …

Laughter

Mr Chongo: … will pursue this further to see how that money was used and why it is not being used this year when there is a serious need for accommodation for our soldiers. That is one of the things I wanted to mention.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the transfers that are happening within the Ministry of Defence. I should declare interest because I happen to have a relative who was transferred from Arakan Barracks to a barracks in Western Province. As per requirement, whenever a transfer is made, the officer must move with his family if he is going to be there for over one year. However, this particular officer was alone in Western Province for over five years because there was no fuel to enable his family to be transferred to Western Province. This creates a lot of problems for families because one party is staying in one area while the other is in another area.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There are other channels through which you could have brought that problem to the attention of the Ministry of Defence. I do not think it should be a subject of debate in the Chamber. I advise that, maybe, you should find time to go and see the appropriate authorities in the Ministry of Defence.

May you, please, continue.

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I take you advice, but I am only summing up by saying that these issues must be looked into so that soldiers are not disturbed.

Sir, I also want to talk about the use of equipment that has been provided, especially to ZNS. We have graders and earth moving equipment which is basically not doing anything where it is. We feel that the earth moving equipment should not only be used when there are serious problems like war. Why do we not use the officers, in times of peace, to work on some roads in the rural areas? This would not only be a form of exercise for them, but would also assist them contribute to the development of these areas? Instead, the equipment is just being misused.

Sir, I have in mind the Lwamfumu ZNS Camp in Mansa. In the past, each time you passed by that area, you would see a very big field of maize, but that is not the case anymore, and yet they have equipment which is just lying idle. We need this equipment in the rural areas so that the feeder roads can be worked on.
Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, in support of this vote, I want to state that although there has been a very small increase in this vote from K1,041,455,606,182 to K1,067,259,617,403, this is a vote which you do not debate or even question the allocation because the price of security is immeasurable.

Mr Chairperson, if it were not for the constraint of funds, we would be pushing for more money to be given to this vote. You may remember that in the First Republic monies allocated to this vote were never debated. You would not even question what was given. Money to this vote used to be allocated quietly.

Sir, I think we have become a bit too loose and as a result we can debate security matters anyhow. That is the problem. Sometimes, it becomes necessary when we find out that things are not going well to open up.

Sir, at one time, it was a pleasure to be attached to the army because the barracks were a sacred place. You would go there and identify yourself. If you went there this time around, you would wonder whether they are barracks or not. There was utmost cleanliness in the barracks, but this is not there any more. We should ensure that we go back to the old days because a real soldier who appreciates being a soldier needs orderliness.

Sir, when I drove past Arakan Barracks, I was happy to see that a wall fence had been constructed to enclose the barracks unlike the situation in some barracks where the wire fence is down. We have to construct a wall fence at Kalewa and Tug-Argan barracks. Why have we left the security of the nation to chance?
 
Sir, there used to be military parades where the defence forces would show off their skills and equipment. Today, we cannot have a military parade because we may not have enough to show off. We were proud to see our military personnel display their skills. Why can we not take care? Even our neighbours, for instance, President Mugabe says, “These neighbours can try me and I will walk over them even with the difficulty in my economy.” What makes him talk like that? Why should Zambia always be the whipping boy? It appears that the only thing that we can do is send soldiers on peace-keeping missions and show off military parades when they are going. However, we are not told when they return. They just sneak back into the country. If you happen to have a relative, that is when you will hear that they have come back. Therefore, you will begin wondering whether he has been given his money in full or not. Everything becomes a secret.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: When they have come back from their assignments, you hear that they have not been paid. Why should this be allowed?

Sir, soldiers now live with us in the compounds. They are found in various compounds like Kanyama and Twapia. How can a soldier be disciplined when he is living with civilians? They commit crime. For the benefit of people who did not train…

Hon. Government Members: You are just a farmer.

Mr Muntanga: Do not say that I am a farmer. Those who did military training will know that when you are in a contingent and an offence has been committed, the rule is that all of you must participate. Therefore, if one of your friends is involved in a fight, you must all fight. That is a rule for soldiers so that you do not leave a friend in trouble. Yet, this Government is allowing soldiers to live in compounds. The rule is that if your friend is in a fight, you must join him and beat everybody.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: As a result, disorderly behaviour is extended when it is not disorderly in the army. The soldiers need to work together.

Sir, why should we allow soldiers to live in compounds?  The Zambia Army engineering unit can build houses and bridges. All they need is enough money. ZAF Twin Palm Camp is building a house every month. Why can you not give them more money so that they build more houses? They do not need to hire or contract strange foreign companies to build houses for them when the builder’s brigade can do it. Why can we not use them? Even my friend was telling me that they can do anything.

Sir, the First Republican Government trained the youth in ZNS camps. During the liberation struggle for Zimbabwe, the ZNS Unit fought the Zimbabwean rebels. This unit was well trained by Zambia Army. It looks like you do not know what to do with this unit. Sometimes, it is separated, the next day, it is with the army and the following day something else is done. Why can we not make a proper decision? We need to ensure that the communities benefit from our military personnel.

 Every year, the same four jets fly over the National Assembly. Why do we not change? I have never heard that the Government has bought some of the latest jets. When you are attacked one day, is when you will realise that you needed to prepare your defence personnel properly. Whilst we are enjoying this peace which may not be guaranteed, we seem to forget the people that we are supposed to work with. You must ensure that the soldiers are properly trained, smart and fed well. You cannot have an excuse for not feeding the soldiers well. However, it is encouraging to see that you have military personnel in your Government like Hon. Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha as Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, Hon. Brigadier-General Chituwo as Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives and Majors in this House. We even have a former councillor as Minister of Defence.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Perhaps, it is high time we brought back a solider as Minister of Defence.

I recall when General Chinkuli was an hon. Member of Parliament in this House, he used to address hon. Members like a soldier because once a solider always a soldier. However, today, because you are appointing civilians as Ministers of Defence, they want to make the military personnel …

Mr Mbewe: Question!

Mr Muntanga: … behave like civilians.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: The funds that are allocated in this year’s Budget must help the defence forces. I am one person who would be proud to see a well equipped, dressed and disciplined army.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I rarely disturb people debating in this House by raising points of order. However, is the hon. Member, who is my brother, in order to demean my other brother by saying that he does not speak like a soldier in this House, and yet he carries the whole dictionary when he speaks in this House? Is he in order?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Chair does not see the relationship between the dictionary and being a soldier.
Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Hon. Muntanga.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the point I am making is that when we became a liberalised state, we were given a chance to talk about issues we never used to talk about in the First Republic. However, this should not be to the disadvantage of our military. This goes across all the units, that is, ZAF, ZNS and Zambia Army. These units need our support. Anything that is required by these defence units must be supplied to them.

I am happy that whenever there is need for the military to acquire something, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning does not hesitate to give them supplementary funds. I have noticed that the supplementary funds that were given to the army last time are what made them reach the present estimates. Perhaps, we should ask those working on the budget for the army to give the nearest estimation of the funds they require. This is because I would not like us to put the security of this country at risk.

Some of the best research is done by military personnel. The army has hospitals and that is why we have good military medical personnel like Brigadier-General Chituwo. Most medical trials are done by the army. The army needs to conduct research on some sensitive matters. For example, the army should be aware of biological war-fare. Legislation regarding this was passed by this House. However, is the army equipped to undertake testing for biological weapons? These are the things you must allow them to do. They must match the practice elsewhere because the world is getting sophisticated. The first people to know whether some kind of bacteria has been brought into the country must be the military.

Hon. Opposition Member: GMO!

Mr Muntanga: Even all these things you talk about related to Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs), should be known by them in advance. Therefore, hon. Minister of Defence, I know that you mean well with the dictionaries, but, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: …please, ensure that these developments are not curtailed in the army so that you can be proud enough to walk as a proper soldier.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I would like to see you dressed in military uniform so that I can see if you look like one.

Mr Kakoma: He is scared of wearing one!

Mr Muntanga: That way, we can approve that you are a proper Minister of Defence.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, as long as we ensure the military is given enough funds and all the soldiers are removed from the compounds and taken into barracks, I will be very happy.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to debate on the 2009 Budget for the Ministry of Defence which is currently on the Floor of the House.

With your indulgence, Mr Chairperson, allow me to place on record my sense of sorrow and deep grief on the untimely demise of the late General Christon Tembo, whom, as we all know, was a very valuable asset to this nation and to the Zambia Defence Forces.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Chairperson, the institution of defence, which we are debating this morning, has a unique history and place in the evolution of our country, which cannot be ignored by any well meaning Zambian, especially at a time of sharing the national cake.

Sir, the Zambia Army, ZAF and ZNS are a typical example of the oneness and total commitment to duty born by our gallant armed forces in accomplishing the liberation wars in this region. The determination, professional commitment and personal sacrifice by officers and men of the time is one which the current men and women in uniform will do well to emulate. These were men and women who were prepared to die a little for Mother Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, to underscore how well we were perceived in the region and beyond, General Peter Walls, the notorious General of the South African army once retorted:

“Zambia has a very effective army and a very proficient air force except they drink like fish.”

This, Mr Chairperson, as sarcastic as it may sound, is a true impression of a force that this country put forward to defend our aspirations and ideals.

Mr Chairperson, as we debate this appropriation to our various defence wings, it is important that we do not lose sight of some of the major challenges affecting these gallant men and women in uniform. I have in mind the current state of affairs of equipment which is completely obsolete and, in most cases, dangerous and in a state of disrepair.

Secondly, the falling standards in our defence forces is a source of worry. Morale is very low.

Mr Bwalya: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Morale, in the defence forces, in their current state, is extremely low.

Waning professionalism due to reduced proficiency training and military exercise is another area of concern to all of us who have worked well to shape up a defence force that was meant to serve Zambia well.

Major Chibamba: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Mr Chairperson, of grave concern to me, as a person that had an input in bringing about a defence force that we thought was going to be a mirror for the region, is the current politicisation of the defence forces.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Politicisation of the defence forces has, to some extent, helped weaken the professional aspect that we are supposed to display as members of the defence forces. Without that interference of politicians, we would have maintained the status quo as a force that was set to redeem and maintain the integrity of our country.

Tribalism is another ugly head that is creeping into the defence forces. This scourge has the effect of eroding the banner and spirit of comradeship which was once a catalyst in the drive of a soldier on duty, especially in the real war situation and created a pillar and character of the Zambia Defence Forces.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Defence must, as a matter of urgency, investigate the apparent scourge of tribalism and regionalism in the army before this cancer spreads its tentacles to other wings of this very vital sector in our nation. In particular, the hon. Minister must investigate and report to this House the distribution of appointments and promotions of office bearers in the army cantonment.

Mr Chairperson, it cannot be by coincidence that of the fourteen army units I investigated, twelve are headed …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I know that we are discussing policy, but we have to be careful because if we are going to use the august House to settle things like that, we may be misunderstood. There are channels, I believe, through which those matters could be brought to the attention of the authorities. Will the hon. Member continue, but move in another direction.

Colonel Chanda: I am much obliged, Mr Chairperson, for that timely advice.

Interruptions

Hon. Member: Ni ba Colonel ba Salvation Army aba.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Chairperson, during my fifteen year stint in the military, tribal balancing was cardinal because we were building a defence force that was meant for Zambia and it was important that every inch of Zambia was well represented and played a part.

Mr Chairperson, our Zambia today craves for a people’s defence force to safeguard its integrity and ensure that the sovereignty of our land is secured and guaranteed. We need a Zambia Defence Force which is truly Zambian in character and composition. We are not interested in a military wing that is ceremonial in nature, and only comes to life at the occasion of the Ceremonial Opening of Parliament or such similar functions.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I wish to say that the Appropriation Bill sought today must be applied to intended objectives and not to pay ghost workers. The hon. Minister of Defence will do well to review the list of contract officers who seem to be blocking progression and the advancement of many hardworking officers and men. Some of the forty-one generals and colonels currently retained in the army have outlived their usefulness …

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda:  … and should give way to young upcoming officers.

Mr Chairperson, may I end my debate by stating that because of the well oiled military intelligence system which was well funded at the time, none of the incursions or invasions by the Serious Scout of Rhodesia or the military arms of South Africa that attacked Zambia came without our prior knowledge. All the attacks or incursions were well known before they took place.

Mr Chairperson, I take my hat off to the First Republican President who was the Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces at the time for having taken a very wise move to pay a blind eye to some of the incursions because without that wisdom, the entire sub-region would have been engulfed in confrontations that would have delayed the independence of most of the neighbouring states that we helped liberate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, before I delve into the issues that have been highlighted, I must say that I found some remarks quite flabbergasting.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Sir, first of all, I would like to acknowledge, with thanks, the expressions of condolences on the passing on of General Tembo. Indeed, it is a sad loss to the family and the country as a whole because he was a very popular army general, which really goes to show the kind of leadership he had.

Mr Chairperson, concern has been raised regarding the huge allocation to house rentals. We have a difficult situation where a lot of our soldiers are living in rented accommodation and the position of the Government is to build houses for the soldiers. We have made several attempts to do this the latest being with a company from China which promised to build a housing complex for soldiers in Lusaka and the Copperbelt, but we did not agree on certain terms. These people were asking for huge interest rates and after we consulted, we were advised not to go ahead. Therefore, we have engaged some more people in discussions. All of this is documented at the ministry.

Therefore, we are doing everything possible to resolve this problem because it is not very good for soldiers to live amongst the civilian population. This is a serious concern to us and we are trying our best to address this issue. Without making a Government assurance, I would like to assure the House that we are doing everything possible to ensure that we …

Hon. Members: Government assurance!

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: No!

Sir, what I am saying is that serious efforts are being undertaken. I do not want to say that we now have a new group of businessmen and we will conclude our discussions. I am saying that we have begun that process which involves various consultations. For instance, I just highlighted the question of interest rates. If someone comes and says that they are going to give us the contract at an acceptable cost, we have to consult. As a ministry, we identify people and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning enters into discussions with them to ensure that everything is done properly. Therefore, this process has begun. About three weeks ago, we had discussions with a group which is interested in building more houses and they will come next week to engage the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Therefore, we are on course despite the difficulties along the way.

With regard to unleashing soldiers on the streets, that move is fraught with danger. Soldiers are there to protect the lives and property of the people and if we unleash them on the people, their position is going to be compromised. However, we are convinced that the police and mobile unit are capable of handling issues like they have done in the past. As for soldiers, we would rather keep them in the cantonments as per their usual duties.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson, with regard to recruitment, if we do not recruit now, we will be creating a generation gap. If we do not train people now and only start recruiting after ten years, there will be such a huge gap that the efficiency of the soldiers will be compromised. 
Mr Chairperson, the issue of tribalism does not arise because even when we begin to recruit, the exercise will be national as the recruitment will be done in every district of the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Sir, we have received a petition that in some provinces like Lusaka, there are so many people from other provinces. Therefore, if we give all the places to the town dwellers in Lusaka District, we are going to disadvantage people from districts such as Rufunsa and Chongwe. As a result, we want to move very carefully because like you have said, we do not want to have a tribal army. Therefore, we will go district by district. In some cases, we are going to consult the chiefs in the areas to ensure that the entire country moves together without some people being disadvantaged.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: On the politicisation of the army or defence forces, Mr Chairperson, I take it with a pinch of salt.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: This is a national army and, therefore, we should not allow it to be politicised. However, what the army have said, and many people have misunderstood this concept, is that wherever you are, the army or defence forces are loyal to the Government of the day regardless of who is in Government.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: That is what it is. If the UP, not the United Party for National Development (UPND), but a political party called UP, formed Government, ...

Interruptions

Mr Mpombo: … the defence forces would be loyal to that party.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mpombo: Similarly, if the UPND formed Government, the army would be loyal to it.

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Mr Mpombo: If it is the Patriotic Front (PF) that forms government, the army will be loyal to it. Once the army does that, people mistake them to be supporting the MMD. That is not the case.  It is because the MMD is the Government of the day.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Therefore, we must understand this clearly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members said the army only discharges ceremonial functions. That statement lacks a basis. For instance, our army has been in Darfur and all over the African Continent and Europe and has performed very well.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga raised a very important issue which should be food for thought. If you go to Namibia, Nigeria and other countries in the entire continent of Africa, you will not find defence issues being discussed in the open. You are literally undressing your own defence capabilities when you do this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: This is because when you say you are going to spend K4 billion to do A B C, that amounts to about US$1 million and others are able to see this. It is not just about having an army, but about having full confidence in it. The moment we start discussing issues of defence along Cairo Road …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I appreciate the hon. Minister of Defence’s explanation. The problem is that it is the Government’s position that we discuss the Budget, even for defence, in this House. If there is a feeling that this should change, I would rather we stop there. If the Government feels that we should change, then you must find a way out. However, I do not think we should delve into the matter in detail. Take that into account, hon. Minister, as you debate.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mpombo: Obliged by your wise counsel, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Member: Follow the instructions.

Mr Mpombo: On Hon. Muntanga, …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, …

Hon. Opposition Member: On Idi Amin.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Sir, I think Hon. Muntanga deserves to do some frog jumps.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, that term is actually used in the Ministry of Defence. I once went to the National Service. There you can frog jump, but for you to suggest making an hon. Member of Parliament frog jump …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … is serious.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, I want to conclude by appealing to the whole nation, through Parliament, not to use derogatory, abusive and scurrilous remarks ...

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: … on our defence forces. Yes, there may be one or two issues, but you do not paint the whole army with the same brush. This is most unfortunate because when you write these things in the newspapers, they are available on the Internet and that is the best way of destroying confidence. You must know that the men and women in uniform get very hurt and insulted by these remarks because they are doing their very best under very difficult conditions for this country. Therefore, it is important that we take this into account.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTES 20 and 29 ─ (Loans and Investments ─ Local Government and Housing ─ K296,119,919,241 and Ministry of Local Government and Housing ─ K234,350,684,836).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving this opportunity to present the Ministry of Local Government and Housing’s policy statement on the 2009 budget.

The Ministry of Local Government and Housing is a critical ministry in the promotion of the socio-economic development of this country in that it is mandated to develop and ensure democratic local governance. This is the ministry which facilitates the efficient and effective delivery of quality housing, municipal infrastructure and social services by local authorities.

With the following in mind, the ministry will in the 2009 budget endeavour to accelerate the implementation of on-going programmes and projects and add value to the principles of good local governance, infrastructure provision and leadership of the local authorities.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry’s activities will be undertaken though seven departments which are the following:

(a) Human Resource and Administration;

(b) Local Government Administration;

(c) Infrastructure and Support Services;

(d) Government Evaluation;

(e) House of Chiefs;

(f) Decentralisation Secretariat; and

(g) Physical Planning and Housing.

Mr Chairperson, this year’s budget for the ministry, Vote 29, stands at K234,350,684,836, representing an increase of 7 per cent over the 2008 budget which was K217,690,098,577. This increase is mainly due to the increase in the allocation for CDF while allocations for the rest of the programmes have been reduced. The budget for housing and water infrastructure projects, under Vote 20 ─ Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing, stands at K296,119,919,241 out of which K214,012,712,568 is from our co-operating partners and K82,107,206,673 is the Government’s counterpart contribution. The allocation under this vote has reduced mainly due to the completion of projects while new ones are still in their initial stages and do not require significant capital funds.

Mr Chairperson, the 2009 budget shall achieve its intended objectives, programmes and activities through the departments that I have mentioned above.

The Department of Human Resources and Administration is responsible for the efficient administration and operation of the ministry by ensuring continuous human resource development of all members of staff, providing support staff, transport and other logistics for all relevant offices.

Mr Chairperson, the Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute, under the ministry, provides in-service training for local authority workers to upgrade their skills in financial management, social services provision and other areas of local government administration. The ministry is committed to ensuring that the institute is adequately supported to meet the challenges of facilitating human capacity development in local authorities. There is an on-going phased rehabilitation programme at the Chalimbana Campus to improve the infrastructure and learning environment.

Mr Chairperson, the Department of Town and Country Planning administers the functions of physical and regional planning and housing development guided by the Town and Country Planning Act, Cap. 283 and Housing (Statutory and Improvement Areas) Act Cap. 194 of the Laws of Zambia.

The ministry has managed to budget for the preparation of ten integrated development infrastructure plans in the 2009 budget out of the sixty-eight districts requiring updated development plans. The comprehensive integrated development plans will provide a physical framework for socio-economic development. They will also facilitate investment, well co-ordinated regional development and effective decision-making in curbing development imbalances in and between districts and provinces.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is challenged with the growth of informal settlements resulting from rapid population growth and urbanisation. The ministry has already commenced the upgrading of some of the informal settlements. In 2009, twenty settlements are targeted for upgrading.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, through the Department of Local Government Administration, is responsible for the administration and co-ordination of all the seventy-two councils in Zambia. In order to achieve this, the programmes and activities to be implemented are in line with the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) which will empower the councils in the provision of services, promote accountability and transparency in the management and utilisation of resources both from the Central Government and local resources and enhance the capacity of councils in the mobilisation of resources and implementation of various programmes and projects at the local level.

Mr Chairperson, in 2009, the Government has made the following provisions as council grants:

(a) recurrent grants to councils of K50 billion meant for council operations;

(b) restructuring grants of K20 billion. This is meant to pay off outstanding retirement benefits for former council employees;

(c) grants in lieu of rates of K20 billion. Rates on Government properties in council areas will be taken care of; and

(d) capital grant of K20 billion. This is meant for drainage in Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, for 2009, the CDF to finance micro-community projects in all the 150 constituencies in the country has been increased from K400 million to K600 million per constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, this adds up to K90 billion for all the 150 constituencies. I will move an amendment to this effect.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In order to ensure proper management and utilisation of the funds, the ministry will revise the CDF guidelines to enhance transparency and accountability.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, with the envisaged establishment of the Local Government Service Commission, a sum of K108,000,000 has been provided. The commission will be vested with the power to employ and discipline the staff, determine conditions of service for managers in the local authorities and other duties.

Indeed, the reintroduction of the Local Government Service Commission will bring discipline and responsibility to chief officers and the management of councils, thereby streamlining operations for the betterment of the clientele.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, through the Department of Housing and Infrastructure Development, is charged with the responsibility of co-ordinating municipal infrastructure development. In addition, it provides technical advice to councils and other stakeholders regarding municipal infrastructure. During the year, 2008, the ministry successfully reinforced the importance of the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Programme so that there is improved hygiene to combat and prevent the outbreak of cholera which has now become a national concern.

For 2009, the Government has set aside K63 billion as counterpart funding for the rural water programme and the urban and peri-urban water and sanitation programme while K214 billion came from our co-operating partners. The 2009 allocation from our co-operating partners has been reduced from last year’s K379 billion mainly due to the completion of projects while the new ones are still in the initial stages and do not require substantial amounts of capital funds.

Mr Chairperson, the Government valuation Department provides an important service in assisting local authorities enhance their revenue base through the rating programme. It also carries out the function of advising on rentals, sale or outright purchase of land and buildings, plant and machinery, furniture and equipment for other Government departments as well as the general public. 
The department continues to provide policy on the Rating Act and the Valuation Surveyors Act as well as other land related legislation. The department is involved in the amendment to the Valuation Surveyors Act in conjunction with the Surveyors Institute of Zambia Valuation Chapter.

Sir, regarding the House of Chiefs, the functions of the House of Chiefs and Chiefs Affairs Department are spelt out in Articles 127 to 131 of the Constitution. These are mainly to be an advisory body to the Government on traditional, customary and any other matters referred to it by the President. A provision has been made for the sessions of the House.

Mr Chairperson, K4,480,000,000 has been provided to complete the purchase of 136 vehicles for the chiefs who did not benefit from the motor vehicles purchased in 2007 and 2008.

Sir, as regards decentralisation, the Government’s vision is to achieve a fully decentralised and democratically elected system of governance characterised by open, predictable and transparent policy-making and implementation processes and effective community participation in decision-making, development and administration of local affairs while maintaining linkages between the centre and the periphery. In this vision, the Government has committed itself to improving service provision at points of delivery and enhancing participation of citizens in matters of development. The programmes planned to be implemented under the 2009 budget will be targeted at achieving this vision on decentralisation.

In recognition of the much available goodwill from a number of co-operating partners who intend to support the Government in this process and to show Government commitment …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: The Executive, please give His Honour the Vice-President chance to debate. You are disturbing the debate.

May you continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and ownership of its programmes, the ministry has made provision in the 2009 budget for joint Government donor financing. Our co-operating partners have made available a total provision of K40 billion for the implementation of the decentralisation programmes.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In conclusion, Sir, the 2009 budget submission is in line with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning’s Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF). I urge this august House to support the budget for the ministry.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this very important vote on the Floor. I would like to support the vote. In supporting the vote, I would like to dwell on a number of issues that have been articulated by His Honour the Vice-President in his policy statement.

The first concerns the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission. It is very good that the Government has come up with this policy. In this year’s budget, there is a provision to fully operationalise the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission although I am mindful that it might not be enough. This commission will assist the councils because a number of councils do not have qualified personnel.

Major Chibamba: No!
Mrs Masebo: This is especially the case in the rural parts of Zambia. Therefore a centralised Local Government Service Commission will ensure that officers are transferred to councils that fail to attract qualified personnel.

However, from the President’s Address to this House, I noticed that the Government intends to do this by amending the Local Government Act and Service Commissions Act. I would have thought that amending the Local Government Act would suffice so that the commission that is established remains within the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. This is because if we establish a Local Government Service Commission that is going to be like other commissions under the Service Commissions Act, we might run into the danger of creating two parallel ministries. Currently, the function of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is to manage the local authorities.  Therefore, it will be necessary, as you bring legislation to bring the Local Government Service Commission into effect, that we make sure that the ministry has control over the commission.

Sir, as regards decentralisation, I was happy to note that the Government has shown political will in the speedy implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. My only problem is that it is clear from our allocation, as Government, that we are giving lip-service to this policy. The donors have given us K40 billion, but when you look at the budget, you will find that we have put in, maybe, less than K2 billion ourselves. This seems to be a problem.

When it comes to the K219 billion provision for water and sanitation, the donors are putting in 91 per cent. We are only putting in 9 per cent, and yet water and sanitation is a priority for this Government. It is that lack of seriousness in allocating resources to the programmes that we, ourselves, begin that makes donors withdraw some of their support. You will notice that there is a reduction in this year’s donor support towards water and sanitation. That reduction is not so much because some projects were done last time, but because the donors are concerned that we, as a Government, do not seem interested in what we call a priority. People can only know that you are interested in your policy if you, yourselves, put the money where it is needed.

Sir, I think it is important that when we prioritise a programme, as a Government, we show those supporting us that we mean business by allocating reasonable resources to it. In some cases, we even have problems meeting the 10 per cent counterpart funding requirement. Sometimes, the counterpart funding is not forthcoming, and yet we have budgeted for it. I think it is important for the Government to show that it is committed to its programmes.

Mr Chairperson, there is a problem. The Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Programme is good. When the late President launched it, various activities were done by various communities and departments of Government as well as the private sector. As a result, we did not record any cholera that year. If you remember, the country experienced floods that year, but there was no cholera outbreak. However, in the following years, although we still talk about making Zambia clean, the activities have reduced, hence, the outbreak of cholera.

Sir, street vending and selling food on the streets must be discouraged.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We should not politicise issues. We should also not be timid, as a Government, and scared of doing what is right. This is because, at the end of the day, when the elections come in 2011, the same street vendors will not vote for us because they will be disgusted that the streets are dirty and diseases are on the increase because those of us who are supposed to bring cleanliness in the country are scared to take appropriate action. We should not allow this problem to escalate and be politicised. I want to urge the Government to take decisive action this year. If nothing is done, then we will not be able to do anything about the situation next year.

 In Lusaka, there is nowhere to walk. The corridors are crowded because people are selling meat, cooking and washing clothes along Cairo Road. You cannot say that there is a government if you allow such anarchy on the streets. I do not think that is how to govern a country. Which investor is going to come to a city as dirty as Lusaka?

Mr Muntanga: Keep Zambia Clean.

Mrs Masebo: I think that the Government must take decisive action to ensure that the streets are cleared.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Lusaka has become very dirty and I know a number of towns that have become dirty again. Let us remove the street vendors.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Let us not pretend and try to gain political mileage over nothing. We cannot have a country where illegalities become the order of the day in the name of poverty. Yes, we know there is poverty, but let us also have order.  The so-called investors or those running businesses in town cannot operate in such an environment. There is a direct correlation between selling food on the streets and cooking along Cairo Road and the health problem that we are facing. We end up with a budget that is tilted towards curing diseases because we are allowing it to happen.

This brings me to another issue of illegality regarding construction. I am happy that the Government, this year, has said that they are bringing…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let her be heard.

You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Sir. I want to say that …

Mr Muntanga: You are doing very well.

Mrs Masebo: … I am happy …

Mr Mushili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mushili: Mr Chairperson, I do not raise points of order unnecessarily. Is the former Minister of Local Government and Housing, who is now an MP, …

Mr Muntanga: She has always been an MP.

Mr Mushili: … which she has always been, and is still in the MMD, …

Hon. Member: Ah!

Mr Mushili: … in order not to say that she is part of the dirt on the streets and she failed to take decisive action while she was hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing? What was she afraid of at that time? Is it not the politics that she practised at that time which she is now talking about? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You will recall that Mr Speaker guided the House this morning. My understanding of what Mr Speaker said was that former Ministers should not be prevented from speaking their minds just because they were in Government. That was my understanding and, therefore, she is right to debate in the manner she is debating.

May you continue, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your ruling.

Sir, as we talk about the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Programme, those who live in Zambia, I do not know whether the former speaker lives here, will note that in a particular year when His Excellency interpreted …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let me clarify an issue, Hon. Masebo.  When you say ‘former speaker’, I believe you mean the person who was debating earlier and not Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Then, you may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Sir. When the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Programme was implemented, the street vendors were all removed …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … and the town was very clean. There was fresh air and no cholera. The programme is still there and the Government is still implementing it. I want to urge my Government, and I think I have the right to do that, to ensure that it continuously implements this programme so that we do not have cholera. I also want to urge hon. Members, especially those that like encouraging illegalities, to ensure that they support the Government to implement the programme in their constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: They should also clean their homes because some of their homes are not clean.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Tell them.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: On the issue of housing, I would like His Honour the Vice-President, when winding up debate, to help me understand whether the programme on municipal bonds is still on. This is because it is a worthwhile programme although I am mindful of the fact that with the credit crunch, obviously there may be some difficulties. However, looking at the Public-Private-Partnership (PPP) Policy and the fact that we are still alive to the possibility of raising resources from the private sector, that programme would help us ensure that we increase the housing stock which currently stands at a deficit of over 1.2 million units.

Sir, I am happy to note that the Regional and Urban Planning Bill is being considered by this administration. However, I am aware that there seems to be a problem between the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing in as far as the function of planning is concerned. I think that it is incumbent upon the two hon. Ministers to iron out these problems because if they do not, we are continuously going to litter resources in several ministries dealing with the same function. I think it is necessary for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to understand that spatial planning is an important function that must continuously fall under that ministry because when we talk about planning which starts from the bottom, there is no way that function can go to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Otherwise, we will just create confusion among the different ministries. I would like to urge the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Local Government and Housing to look at the function of planning and ensure that the planners at the provincial level are left as they are so that there is proper co-ordination between the provinces, district councils, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Chairperson, putting in place the ten integrated plans that are going to be put in place this year is the best way to go considering that most of our towns have unplanned settlements. However, the resources allocated to this project are not sufficient because the job of upgrading unplanned settlements requires colossal sums of money. When you look at the resources that have been allocated towards upgrading the selected unplanned settlements, they will not really make a big difference. While the project is worthwhile, I think that the resources may not really help us much.

With regard to chiefs’ affairs, Mr Chairperson, the Government must look critically at the role of the House of Chiefs.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order

(Debate adjourned)

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 17th March, 2009.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

NUMBER OF GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS IN THE COUNTRY

192. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) what the total number of Government buildings country-wide was;

(b) what the total value of the buildings at (a) above was; and

(c) the number of buildings at (a), how many were insured.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, the total number of Government buildings country-wide is approximately 62,000.  This can be broken down into common user blocks, hospitals, health posts, rural and urban institutions and police posts.

Mr Speaker, it is not possible to give the total value of all the Government buildings in the country as the last valuation of Government buildings was done specifically to value houses that were to be sold under the Home Ownership Empowerment Scheme. The Government Valuation Department intends to include the valuation of all Government buildings in its 2010 annual work plan.

Mr Speaker, most Government buildings in the country are not insured. The Ministry of Works and Supply is preparing a circular instructing all Government departments to include the insurance of all Government buildings under their charge in next year’s Budget.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.