DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 17th March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_____

QUESTIONS

REHABILITATION OF ROADS IN CHIPILI

194. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the Government would work on the following roads in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Mukabi to Musalango; and

(ii) Kanshimba to Kamami through Mutipa village;

(b) how much money would be required to do the works at (a) above; and

(c) when the Government last worked on the roads above.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House as follows:

(a) (i) the ministry has immediate plans to carryout the rehabilitation of Mukabi-Musalango Road in Chipili Constituency. To this end, the Road Development Agency (RDA) through the Mwense District Council, which has been appointed as a road authority for the feeder roads in the district, has prepared a design and tender document for the rehabilitation of the road. This document has been submitted to RDA in Lusaka so that it can invite tenders leading to the awarding of a contract. Due to the budgetary constraints, the road will only be rehabilitated when funding is available. However, owing to the importance of this road, its rehabilitation is now being considered to be included in the Danish Road Sector Support Programme (DRSSP) for Luapula Province. This road is part of the Mukabi-Kawambwa Road which is earmarked for maintenance under the DRSSP for Luapula Province;

(ii)  the Mwense District Council has also prepared a design and tender document for the rehabilitation of Kanshimba-Mutipula-Kamani Road. The implementation of the project awaits funding;

(b) the total cost estimates for the rehabilitation of Mukabi-Musalango Road is K950,492,400.00 and Kamani-Mutipula-Kanshimba Road is K1,475,438,800; 

(c) the ministry, through RDA last carried out maintenance works on Kanshimba-Mutipula Road in 2005. The main road between Kamani and Musalango has not received any maintenance for many years.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, these two roads were identified by the local authority, which is the Mwense District Council as roads that needed to be worked on. The Government was supposed to work on these roads last year. In fact, it is not only Mwense District which is affected, but the entire Luapula Province. Could the hon. Minister inform this House why roads in this province have not been worked on for some time?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, it has been explained, clearly, that it is because of financial constraints. We would like to work on those roads and we are committed to working on them. That is why you have heard that through the DRSSP, it is possible that those roads can be worked on soon. We have delayed on working on those roads due to resource constraints.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, through you, I would like the hon. Minister to give me the time it takes from the moment the local authority submits their papers for tendering to the time that the contractor is actually identified and starts working on the ground.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the local authority will make their request for us to work on a particular road, but us attending to that request is dependant on the availability of funds. We avoid signing contracts before sourcing for funds because the bill begins to accumulate even if work on the project has not began. There is nothing like idle time for the contractors because they start charging from the day a contract is signed. We avoid that because it is just a way of wasting money. We would only like to sign these contracts as and when funds are available. If funds are not available, we do not start the process.

Sir, it is difficult for me to give a timeframe because soon after the advert for tenders is put in the press, people make submissions of their evaluations and sometimes because of difficulties in putting the tender evaluating team together, it takes a bit of time. However, we would be happy to see these tenders awarded as soon as we have resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he intends to inform the nation that it is only the Government that can work on roads and not area Members of Parliament. I have asked this question so that we avoid unnecessary demonstrations by people in our constituencies.

 Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we would be happy to see hon. Members of Parliament working on roads because it is a shared responsibility. If hon. Members of Parliament have the capacity, we welcome their input. As a caring Government, we do not even want any demonstrations. If there are demonstrations against a Member of Parliament for not working on the roads, we would be happy to be shown such evidence.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, taking into account that Zambia is also affected by the global financial squeeze, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the financial constraints being experienced when working on roads are being affected by the ministry’s change of policy of introducing new projects before completing those that were on the previous work plan. Has the introduction of the new policy affected the completion of works on roads which were on the existing work plan?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in the Policy Statement, we made it clear that we will not start any new projects. What we budgeted for is for the continuation of already existing projects. In fact, there are tenders that were advertised and contractors responded but they were not able to sign for these contracts because we were waiting to see how much money would be available. So far, we have not started any new projects, like I have said, to avoid the accumulation of interest and penalties for work not done by contractors. As soon as we have resources, we will proceed with the new projects.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

SINKING OF BOREHOLES IN CHASEFU

195. Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the ministry would  provide more boreholes in Lundazi Township to alleviate the water problems the community had been experiencing for a long time;

(b) how many boreholes the ministry would provide to the community at (a) above; and

(c) when boreholes would be sank in needy areas in the Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the ministry will sink nine boreholes in Lundazi District to alleviate water problems experienced in the area. The programme will start in June, 2009.

Sir, the beneficiaries of this exercise will be Luamba Basic School in Susa Ward, Beu Middle Basic School in Magodi Ward, Lusunta High School and Lusunta Village in Chaboli Ward.

Mr Speaker, more boreholes will be sank in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency this year. The needy areas identified in the constituency are Chikuyu Basic School, Pasisiti, Pondaponda, Kalemelela and Alamu villages.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Mr Speaker, bearing in mind that Lundazi Dam is heavily silted to an extent that every August and September, the water that is pumped out of this dam is muddy thereby, making residents take water that is not fit for human consumption. May I therefore, know from the Government when they intend to completely remove the silt from this dam.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, I have taken note of that particular problem and we will look into it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated to this House, the areas in which boreholes will be sank.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order of procedure. Is the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing in order to debate or answer questions away from his seat? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Well, the Chair did not notice that. Actually, I was looking over there for the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, but I note that the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is the acting Minister of Local Government and Housing. Therefore, he is being backed by the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing over there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Therefore, he is in order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this House on the areas in which boreholes will be sank. However, I would like to find out which institution will fund the sinking of these boreholes. Is it the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA), Water Aid or Government itself and how much will be spent on these projects?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have a National Rural Water and Sanitation Programme (NRWSP) covering various water development projects around Zambia. This programme is being undertaken by Government and various co-operating partners. It is under the same programme that the work in Lundazi District will be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, many times in this House we have asked questions about what criteria is used to identify areas where boreholes can be sank. In the case of Kalikiliki which is in my constituency, I have been told to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to sink boreholes in the area. All the money we had in our CDF has been exhausted on other projects. May the hon. Minister tell me what I should do in order for the ministry to sink some boreholes in Kalikiliki.

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Munali will note that Chasefu has not moved to Kalikiliki.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: They are still as far apart as they have always been, geographically.

Laughter

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, the NRWSP has been giving the condition that any community that wants them to start a project in their area must first pay K1.5 million, which I believe most communities have been failing to pay. What is Government doing to help poor communities who cannot afford to pay this K1.5miilion?

Mr Speaker: I take that to be for the people of Chasefu.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, indeed, I can confirm that there are conditionalities like that. Government also comes in with its own counterpart funding. These programmes have been working very well and the communities should contribute.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I was very happy with the answer provided by the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing having given the time frame within which they intend to start borehole drilling in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency. I would like to find out if there is a document that the ministry has put together which can give us hon. Members an indication of which other areas they intend to sink boreholes in.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we can provide such information on request.

I thank you, Sir.

____________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 20 ─ (Loans and Investment ─ Local Government and Housing ─ Physical Planning and Housing Department - K12,582,000,000)

(Consideration resumed)

Madam Chairperson: Before I call upon the hon. Member to continue, let me ask or remind the Committee that on the Order Paper today, we have a number of items and the hon. Members are very well aware that we work within a time frame. The request therefore, of the Chair, this afternoon is that we should make our points quickly and move on. We may just need to have one or two members from each party so that we can go through all the items on the Order Paper.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended on Friday, I was about to conclude my debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Madam Chairperson, in my conclusion, I would like to raise one issue which the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing raised through His Honour, the Vice-President, when he talked about reviewing the CDF guidelines. My appeal is that the review of the CDF guidelines should not delay us in implementing our projects. My humble request is that the reviewed guidelines be implemented next year so that for this year, 2009, the resources we have already received in our respective constituencies be based …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is on the ruling which was made earlier.

Laughter

Mr D. Mwila: I do not know whether it is within …

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member may sit down and switch off the microphone. That is never done.
Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Masebo, you may continue

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I was winding up and saying that His Honour, the Vice-President talked about reviewing the CDF guidelines. I said that in reviewing the guidelines for the CDF, let us ensure that the reviewed guidelines do not apply to this year’s funding, which has already been disbursed or that will be disbursed very shortly so that we are not delayed. The revised guidelines must apply next year. This is because by the time these guidelines leave the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to go to all the districts in the seventy-two councils, it will take time, especially for some of these rural councils which would receive the guidelines late. Let us not be inconvenienced. Lets us ensure that those new guidelines are only implemented next year.

Madam Chairperson, the other point I wanted to make is that it takes time for the implementing agencies or officers to understand the guidelines. As it is now, most councils, including hon. Members of Parliament, already understand the current guidelines. So far, the results have been good because a number of hon. Members have not ended up in jail for failing to follow the current CDF guidelines which do not give them a lot of control over the CDF. I hope that we will not be changing guidelines to start giving powers to the hon. Members of Parliament because you will get all of us locked up before we leave Parliament.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, the other point …

The Chairperson: Order! Your time is over.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Madam Chairperson, I have always wondered what priorities this Government has listed in terms of bringing development to this country. We are all aware that the Ministry of Local and Housing is the edifice of any developmental process in a country.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Unfortunately, the funding to this particular ministry, which is supposed to be the engine of any anticipated development in this country, has been very poor. We are all aware that currently, the entire local government system in this country has collapsed due to the poor policies of the  Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, when the MMD Government came into power, the first act they did was to destroy the local government system in Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They have not made any tangible moves to revitalise the system.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: This year, in the President’s speech to this House and the speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, when he presented his Budget to this House, very important pronouncements were made regarding the diversification of the economy of this country. One of the issues they emphasised was to enhance the tourism potential of this country. The question that begs an answer is what measures has this Government put in place to ensure that the tourism sector in this country is attractive? What incentives are they giving to ensure that investors come and invest in this country? Alas, this Government has not provided any incentives.

Madam Chairperson, a major incentive is the improvement of the local government system in this country. How do you expect a reasonable influx of tourists in a country where there is squalor and cholera is being celebrated as if it was a traditional ceremony every year?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, where do you expect tourists to come from? The road infrastructure in this country has collapsed. How do you expect any reasonable investor to come and invest in Kanyama, when the entire area is flooded? Where do you expect to get a reasonable investor who would want to come and invest in Lusaka when the entire city is an open air market? Where do you expect to get an investor to come and invest in Lusaka, when its entire drainage system has collapsed?

Major Chizhyuka: It is like a new ‘Bombay.’

Mr Mwiimbu: The situation obtaining in Lusaka reminds me of the movie Slumdog Millionaire.

Mrs Masebo: As town clerk.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, she has alluded to the fact that I was town clerk.

The Chairperson: Order! You are listening to what you should not.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, through you.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I was town clerk and I am very proud of the record we left at Lusaka City Council with Hon. Masebo and other members of the council at that particular time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, any reasonable and responsible Government is supposed to provide for the residents of any particular locality.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Any responsible Government is supposed to provide water, good roads and sanitation. Unfortunately, we may not have a responsible Government in Zambia. The local Government system as I am speaking now has collapsed. There is not a single council in Zambia that is performing to the expectations of the residents of that particular town or city.

Madam Chairperson, how do you expect the workers in local authorities to provide to put in their best as they work when they have not been paid for more than threes years?

Hon. MMD Members: Where?

Mr Mwiimbu: The question is that the …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: I will lay you on the Table!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Any responsible Government is supposed to be mindful of the working conditions of workers who are providing important services in a particular locality.

Madam Chairperson, it is not unusual to find that local authorities workers who have not been paid for more than three years not reporting for work. They do not report for work because they have not been paid and their services have not been appreciated by the local authorities.

Madam Chairperson, it is incumbent upon the Government to ensure that the Local Government system in Zambia is provided for adequately in order for it to function properly. Unfortunately, the Government on your right has a misconceived perception that local authorities can stand on their own without funding from Government.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to state without fear of any contradiction that there is no town or city in this world that does not receive funding from the Central Government. It is not unusual when we complain as Members of Parliament that workers in most councils are not paid on time. The answer that is being given by the Government on your side is that local authorities are supposed to pay the salaries of their employees on their own.

Madam Chairperson: Order! The Chair has no side.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate that the Chair has no sid.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, even local authorities for major cities in the world like London and New York receive funding from the Central Government. It is inconsiderate to expect a council from Shang’ombo to find money to pay its workers and provide quality services to its residents. It is high time that the Government came up with better ways of funding the funding the local Government system. Without adequate funding, the local Government system in this country will remain in limbo.

Madam Chairperson, it is not unusual to find properties of residents being destroyed by fire because the local authorities are failing to provide fire cover due the inadequate funding they receive from the Government.

Madam Chairperson, since I am running out of time, I would now like to move to another important issue.

I will now look at the local Government system vis-a-vis, the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) that is being proposed by Government.

Madam Chairperson, it is not the first time that this Government has introduced the LGSC. We must find reasons as to why they previously decided to do away with the LGSC. The LGSC brought inefficiency and indiscipline in the local Government system.

Madam Chairperson, when the LGSC is put in place, the council will have no power to discipline an employ for any misconduct. The power to discipline all employees in councils will lie in the LGSC. We all know the time it takes for any civil service commission to discipline an employee.

Madam Chairperson, we have been lamenting on this Floor of this House the indiscipline that is obtaining in the Public Service. This indiscipline is as a result of the bad performance of the Public Service Commission. Why would we want to bring the indiscipline that is obtaining in other institutions to the local Government system?

Madam Chairperson, the other reason for putting in place the LGSC is that it will be able to transfer workers from one council to another which has human resource problems. Do you really think that any local Government officer would want to be transferred from Lusaka to Shang’ombo where that person will not be paid? People will not be accepting such transfers, but shall instead resign. If the intention of Government is to sort out the personnel crisis in the local Government system, the solution is to ensure that workers of all councils are paid on time. Then, you can be able to transfer an employee to any council in the country.

 It is unnecessary to introduce a service commission that will not provide any funding to the local authorities.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I am very sorry that I have to raise a point of order on my brother who is debating very well. Since it is a very serious point of order, I am prompted to raise it.

Is this hard working hon. Minister of Education in order to be so quiet yet, all teachers in Chongwe district have gone on strike and children have not been learning for the last few days. Is it in order for him to keep quiet without even coming up with a solution, when we always praise him for his hard work? I need your serious ruling

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair had to pass a ruling not too long ago on a point of order very similar to the one that has just been raised this afternoon. My concern is that a point of that nature need not to come here as a point of order. It is very important that we go through what constitutes a point of order.

The last time the Chair guided that if there is such an important issue which you think should be tackled urgently, let it come properly through a question of urgent nature. It is not okay for us to always depend on the Chair to decide when a question must be responded to. Therefore, bring your urgent concerns through questions of an urgent nature which do not go through the processes of normal questions so that the hon. Minister has enough time to prepare his response.

May the hon. Member for Monze continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I want saying that unless, the intention of introducing the LGSC is to ensure that all the employees in the local Government system are employed and paid by this commission, its introduction is a sheer waste of time.

Madam Chairperson, let me quickly come to the issue of decentralisation.I would like to state that if there was an enhanced decentralisation policy in this country that was introduced and working, we were not going to be having situations like the one   obtaining in Chongwe, where teachers are not working and children are not learning…

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu:…because what would have happened was that the local authorities would have been properly taking  care of the teachers and all the employees in the local authorities, but…

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu:…alas, our non-performing Government has failed to implement the decentralisation policy. As a result of the failure to implement the decentralisation policy, we have teachers striking in Luapula, and Eastern provinces, and they are about to go on strike in Southern Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the Government needs to urgently implement the decentralisation policy. Once it is implemented, teachers will not be going on strike.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for allowing me chance to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Madam, let me start by saying that I will only talk about a few issues so that I give chance to other hon. Members to contribute to the debate on the same Vote.

Madam Chairperson, from the onset, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to urgently find ways of improving the allocation and use of the CDF in district councils.

Madam, it is worth noting that this fund has been a source of politicking in councils that amongst council officers. As the ministry is contemplating on revising the CDF guidelines, it should not forget to clearly outline the role of a Member of Parliament in managing the fund. It should come up with a CDF management system whereby a Member of Parliament is not undermined by other interested individuals including, council officers. The Member of Parliament needs to fully participate in managing the CDF.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Government for allocating K20 million towards the monitoring of projects done by a particular council. This is a good move.

Members of Parliament have parliamentary constituency offices but are not involved in monitoring the projects under the CDF, which is not effectively being used by the councils. The CDF money is being diverted to other areas of interest by the councils instead of working on proposed projects in the constituencies. As a result, Members of Parliament end up using their own resources to work on projects that need urgent attention in their constituencies.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: The hon. Minister must come up with a system to allow Members of Parliament to use their officers in their constituency offices to monitor on their behalf the projects that the councils engage in using the CDF.These Members of Parliament also need to monitor how the vehicles available for the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign” are being used by the councils.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: The councils claim that the vehicles that were given to them by the ministry for this campaign are now their property and yet they were given to the constituencies. I would like the hon. Minister to look into this issue very seriously.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of contracting people on projects under the CDF, top civil servants have started conniving with contractors to get contracts from the councils. Through the new guidelines, we need to find ways of stopping this malpractice.

Madam Chairperson, council officials engage in different types of corruption as they manage the CDF. For example, I would identify a project in an area and possibly think that K20 million would be enough to spend on that project. I would sit down with the community and ask them to contribute some money towards the project. As a Member of Parliament you would want to do many projects as possible, of course, with the support of the community. However, council officials will quickly get this contract and give it to other contractors realising that they will not steal any money if the project is completed using this method. They even go as far as inflating the price for the job at hand. 
I would, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to consider giving some powers to Members of Parliament under the new CDF guidelines which will see them giving a go ahead before work on any project is began. The Members of Parliament should also be actively monitoring the work on the project until it’s complete.

Madam Chairperson, as I mentioned at the beginning there is a lot of politicking in councils such that if a Member of Parliament through his community identifies a project that needs to be undertaken in a particular area, other politicians who would also want to benefit personally from the CDF money will approach the councillors directly to be given the contract to work on that same project. These politicians are conniving with councillors and are diverting this money meant for development to other activities that are meant to benefit them. This has been a great concern to Members of the Parliament, hence, the need to change the CDF guidelines they can have some level of control in the way the fund is managed.

With these few words, I would like to thank you.

Madam Chairperson: That was very brief. If hon. Members would that brief, then we would have more Members participating in the debate than the number that was earlier announced by the Chair.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I will also try to be brief.

Madam, Chair, let me first say that I would agree entirely with the debate of the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze who, indeed, was a very hard working Town Clerk of Lusaka City Council.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Hon. Mwiimbu raised issues regarding the decentralisation policy which I have raised before on the Floor of this House. The decentralisation policy is a matter that is just receiving a lot of rhetoric from this Government.

Mr Mbewe: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, there is no reason why we should be talking about the decentralisation policy being implemented in this country when laws that have already been passed by this very House do actually provide for some duties of the Central Government to be carried out by councils.

The Local Government Act has in its second schedule indicates all the different functions of the council. However, when the MMD came into office, what they did was to take away all those powers from the local councils.

As though that is not enough, we are putting K234 billion in this Budget towards the so-called decentralisation process when this money could have instead been used by local councils to make drainage systems. The problem we have is that we are experimenting on matters that are straight forward. It is not the politicians here who are scared of the process, it is the people who think they will lose power when we decentralise from the centre to the periphery.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We the politicians must indicate that we have the political will and power to ensure that power moves from the centre to the periphery.

Can you imagine how scandalous it is that the Minister of Works and Supply in Lusaka has to decide the location where a toilet in  Shango’mbo must be built? A decision for a small little pit latrine in Shango’mbo has to be made in Lusaka. Is it not a scandal?

Ms Lundwe: Why Shango’mbo?

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: As though that was not enough, at the time when we were talking about decentralisation and people were saying councils did not have the capacity, what we saw was the appointment of a person as Minister of Local Government and Housing who has decided to be going against the Local Government Act. The Local Government Act states clearly that the first meeting after 1st September shall be an ordinary meeting at which the council shall elect a mayor. Madam Chairperson, this is March of 2009 and councils have not yet had elections of mayors. How do you explain that to mean that you want to decentralise? It is a pity that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is not in the House but I am sure that he is listening wherever he is now.

Madam Chairperson, it is sickening to have a Minister who goes against the law that he swears to protect and because of that councils are not functioning.

Mr Mbewe: It is you who is not functioning in Kabwata!

Mr Lubinda: One Minister was criticising councils a few days ago but how do you expect councils to function when the hon. Minister responsible for those councils is making it impossible for them to function. Do you expect councils to be running on special meetings all the way? I would also like to appeal to the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to ensure that he gives instructions to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to give authority to local councils to elect their mayors because we are wasting time.

Hon. D Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: How can we even be budgeting for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing when we do not respect it at all? The only thing we have seen from the Minister in recent times is a circular saying, “I have upped the allowances for councillors.” The councillors do not only want allowances but also authority and, please, give it to them.

Madam Chairperson, like Hon. Mwiimbu said, had we decentralised and allowed that that policy to be implemented in its entirety, we would not have had the strikes or protests that you are organising against Opposition Members of Parliament. We would not have had them because councils would have been effective. I ought to state, Madam Chairperson that …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to say that some people are inciting demonstrations in his constituency, when the people are demonstrating because he has failed to deliver to the people of Kabwata. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order! The Chair may not be aware of the failures of Members of this august House but at the same time the Chair would like to guide that let us not draw attention to ourselves as personalities, otherwise, we will become the issue of debate. We do not debate ourselves here as hon. Members. Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, let me move on to another matter which affects all councils in the country. According to the law, Government does not pay property rates for its property but instead gives grants in lieu of rates. Now taking only examples of the cities like the Livingstone, Ndola, Kitwe or Lusaka, what are the property rates that these councils are foregoing which Government is actually mandated to pay? For Lusaka City Council, Government is supposed to pay on an annual basis, K7.4 billion in grants in lieu of rates. What has been its performance? Tom and Jerry would like to go and read the Budget of 2006 and he will see that in 2006 …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: He will see that in 2006…

Madam Chairperson: The Chair is not aware of Tom and Jerry…

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda may you debate properly.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, Mulenga and Zulu may wish to go and see the Budget of 2006 to see the point I am making that whilst Government was supposed to pay the Lusaka City Council K7.2 billion, in 2006, this Government paid zero grants in lieu of property rates. In 2008, Government only gave K600 million to Lusaka City Council instead the K7.2 billion which they owed the council. How do you expect councils to deliver services to the people if on one hand, you do not give them their property rates and on the other, you do not give them the power to mobilise resources.

You will recall that a few years ago, road tax was collected by councils but that role was taken away from councils, thus making them completely impotent and yet, from time to time, the ministers on the Floor of this House have a tendency of saying that we Opposition Members of Parliament are actually councillors of councils that are failing to perform accordingly. I would like to put it on record that the failure of any council is a reflection of the failure of Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: And when people protest against Members of Parliament, it is because they are protesting against that Government …

Dr Scott: against the system.

Mr Lubinda: They are protesting against the system. Do not take pride in seeing those protests because the people are actually saying that this Government is a failure. They expect hardworking Members of Parliament to come here and lambaste Government for failing to perform its duties. I call upon all honest Members of Parliament to stand here and say this Government has failed.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: A Government that cannot collect solid waste or construct a proper sanitation system in a city is one that has failed.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I also want to clear the misconception that people state that Lusaka City Council collects a lot of money. Lusaka City Council to date only has 30,000 properties on its valuation roll. For many years, the Lusaka City Council during the time of Jack Mwiimbu as Town Clerk and Hon. Masebo as Deputy Mayor, kept asking Government to give it money to update its valuation roll, but that money was never released. The Lusaka City Council currently only collects K12.6 billion per year as property rates. How do you expect the Lusaka City Council to build proper drainage systems from K12.6 billion?

Dr Scott: It is the price of one drain.

Mr Lubinda: The price of putting up a drainage system in Kamwala would be K8.4 billion.

Hon. Member: Why so much for one drain?

Mr Lubinda: This means that all property rates collected in one year would only go towards making one drainage system and you expect these poor hon. Members of Parliament and councillors to perform magic. We cannot perform magic or wonders if this Government does not finance local Government authorities. What is worse is that people from the the valuation department at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for which we are going to allocate money today when they go to do valuations of property for councils, they expect councils to pay them. How can you expect councils to pay Government officers for doing national duty, what kind of thinking is that?

Hon. Member: kokayi thinking!

Mr Lubinda: Yes, it is kokayi thinking or absurd thinking. It is warped thinking.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Let me say something again concerning the Lusaka City Council since it has been criticised left, right and centre. I want to remind Government that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is currently squatting in property for which it is not paying rent to Lusaka City Council. There are also a number of hon. Ministers who are living in council properties without paying rent. How do you expect the council to survive?

I would like to ask this Government to, please, provide money in this Budget for it to pay the Lusaka City Council for the properties that it is renting from them. You cannot expect a limping council to build houses when you stay in its houses for free.

Madam Chairperson, most of my colleagues have already debated on the CDF, I would also like to touch on it. Madam Chairperson. The CDF …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, is Hon. Lubinda who is debating in an excellent manner in order to mention only the fact that hon. Ministers are staying in houses where they are not paying rent and that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is squatting in a property for which they are not paying rent without having to mention that in the town centre, opposite Lusaka Hotel, the stinky smell of faecal matter in the town centre is so bad that slowly the town centre of Lusaka is becoming like Bombay because of the failures of this Government. Is he in order not to mention those things associated with Lusaka City Council?

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order! The Chair will guide. The purpose of the earlier guidance of the Chair is for the purpose of making progress. The Chair has sat here previously and issues of time have been raised. That is why the Chair guided that we have to work within a time frame. Hence, hon. Members of this Committee will therefore, not debate through points of order because that point of order is surely a debate. In fact, the Chair allowed you to over debate. She should have curtailed that debate. However, the hon. Member has already debated.Hon. Lubinda may continue on his own path because we want to hear new points. That point has been exhausted.

May you continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much, let me now comment on the CDF. My contribution is unlike the one given by others who are calling for guidelines from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I belong to the school of thought that believes that the CDF must be governed by an Act of Parliament. It must not be at the discretion of Ministers, whether we get it or not. An Act must be passed in this House indicating the dos and don’ts with that money. The guidelines that are produced by the ministry are extremely temporary and we do not want that.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to propose to the Minister of Local Government and Housing that we do away with the temporary guidelines. May he please introduce through this House an Act of Parliament which will govern the utilisation of the CDF.That way, we will even avoid a situation where Members of Parliament appear in court for abuse of the CDF. We do not like it when our colleagues are appearing in court on allegations that they have abused the CDF. That reduces the integrity of this House.

Over and above that, I would also like to implore the Government to make the figure of the CDF predetermined. May I urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to go through a Bill that was proposed in 2005 in this House regarding the CDF.Please, look at that Bill with your colleague in Ministry of Local Government and Housing so that you can see how you can work on it and bring it to the house for enactment as an Act of Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, let me also comment a little on population growth and its management. If you allow the population to over grow the capacity of the townships, you end up with filthy townships like the one that my colleague was describing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Do not think that simply by saying we shall relocate people from Mazyopa to Mahopo you have sorted out the problem. You only sort out the problem by ensuring that you provide the necessarily basic infrastructure for the people in a particular area.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the other day, I heard Hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing taking advantage of my absence in this House and accusing me of having stopped development in some parts of the country.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Lubinda: Who am I, as ordinary Member of Parliament to stop Government from delivering development? They must accept blame for failure.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It is not the duty of a Member of Parliament to go and provide pit latrines in his constituency. For those who think that this Member of Parliament has failed in Kabwata, let me tell you how we judge the success of a Member of Parliament. You do not judge Members of Parliament by the drainages systems that have been made in their constituency. You judge a Member of Parliament by the number of times that he or she holds the Government  accountable. That is the number one job of an Opposition Member of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is the number one job of a back bencher.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: You do not judge the success of a Member of Parliament by the number songs of praise they sing about ministers who don not even perform. You judge the performance of a Member of Parliament by the amount of sweat that he or she creates on the foreheads of you my friends.

Mr Lubinda was pointing at Hon. Government Members.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: And if that is what I am going to be judged on …

Madam Chairperson: Order! Hon. Lubinda, you are speaking through the Chair not to point at the sweat of those on my right.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, if I am going to be judged by the volumes of sweat that those on your right emit because of my pressure, then I have performed my function.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The people of Zambia elected these people here to make sure that whoever is in Government is held under check.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: If the people in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing are abusing public resources, we shall voice our concern …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … because we would like every kwacha that goes through this budget to deliver development through the local government system of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I would have been very happy had another person spoken also on behalf of Lusaka Province because this is a very important ministry which causes havoc to every Zambian.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Mbewe.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Thank you …

Mr V. Mwale: Naphwanye iwo.

Mr Mbewe: … for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote. Things have been spoken and understood.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: I also want to be very clear that criti …

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Nimwamene baba.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: … criticism has been given and we have taken note of it. However, I also want to put clearly that the same people that have criticised the Government have also not praised it for the good work that it has done.This Government has done a lot.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Therefore, I would like to challenge all 150 hon. Members that if there is any one who has not received a vehicle for his constituency under the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign,” let him stand up.

Hon. Government Member:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, nobody has praised the Government for giving those vehicles to constituencies.

Mr Kambwili: Question! Where?

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, equally, everybody here is talking about the CDF, but nobody has come out to praise our Government for releasing the it on time …

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: … and which has been used very fruitfully.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, there is need to thank the Government for the tractors that they have given to some districts……

Madam Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, is the Member of Parliament for Chadiza in order to mislead this nation on the Floor of this House that the CDF is released on time….

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … when CDF for last year was released this year …

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: … and the CDF for this year has not even been released and it is not going to be released this year. From the time I have been in this House, every year, the CDF is released the following year. Is he in order to mislead the Zambians.

Madam Chairperson: The Chair now is the one being misled by both hon. Members.

Hon. Members: Yes.

Madam Chairperson: The CDF for last year was released last year, unless we are saying that it is released at different times for different constituencies and that the practice changes every year.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order! What we have to state clearly is that the hon. Member who raised a point of order wanted to make sure the nation is not misled. The hon. Member has said CDF for this year has not yet been released. We cannot talk about that because the budget is not yet passed.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Madam Chairperson: So, anytime which is on time is subjective.

The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, this is a Government of accountability.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: The councils that did not retire receipts on how they spent the CDF on time did not also get subsequent funds on time.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Therefore, if the hon. Member is in one of those councils which did this, I would like to inform him that we are very serious with accountability.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank this Government for building many markets in various constituencies.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Even constituencies of hon. Members on your left have benefited from the construction of these markets.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, as regards water reticulation …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order! Another point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Chadiza, Hon. T. J. Mbewe …

Mr Kambwili: Tom and Jerry.

Mr Lubinda: … in order to misinform the people of this nation that this Government has built markets in constituencies including those to which hon. Members on your left belong and yet Chilenje Market, which was amongst the first to be constructed under the Urban Markets Project eight years ago, has not yet been completed? Is he in order to be genuflecting just for the sake of trying to get a job? I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: To start with, the Chair is not aware of T. J. Mbewe and therefore, the point of order has probably been raised on a wrong person.

Laughter

The Chairperson: On issues relating to what the hon. Member debating has said, the Chair has guided both sides on what issues to debate and those for points of order. The general issue is that of markets but if there is need for clarification on which markets are complete and which ones are incomplete, that can be debated separately.

You may continue.

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your protection.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, even if some markets have not been completed, the fact is that the Government has started to construct them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Even if we say that they have taken too long to complete …

The Chairperson: Order! Debate your own points and do not comment on the point of order which has been ruled on by the Chair.

You may continue.

 Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, I again thank you for your guidance. Construction of markets has started in various constituencies and work is going on very well. For example, the Government has constructed a very good market in Vubwi where I come from.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, there are markets in Kabwata and Soweto. This is a sign of the good work that the Government is doing.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mbewe: These markets were not there before and because of the good policies of this Government, new ones have been erected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, sometimes these projects are delayed because of political interference.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: I would like to also thank the Government for having addressed the problem of water that we had in Chadiza. The Government procured three water pumps so as to sort out the problem of water in Chadiza which is now a thing of the past and therefore, I am grateful for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Chairperson, my constituency has also received a tractor from this ministry. It is not only Chadiza that received a tractor but even other constituencies represented by the people on your left.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Even people on the Copperbelt have benefited from the procurement of fire fighting equipment.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Laughter

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musosha): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the chance to enlighten this House on what this ministry is doing to address the many problems affecting Zambians, as this is the ministry that is closest to the people. To start with, here in Lusaka, this ministry is sorting out the problems surrounding New Soweto Market, the Kanyama area and many other issues that have to do with flooding.

Madam Chairperson, everybody here would agree with me that the general topography of the area from Kanyama, New Soweto Matero up to Mandevu has quite a bad rock formation. For us to stop this area from flooding, we have to use, at certain times, blasting and heavy equipment to excavate and provide for us to create a proper drainage system for the area.

Certainly, many problems, such as cholera, which affect the people of Lusaka and many other towns in Zambia, are as a result of poor drainage. The issue of poor drainage has persisted because many local authorities that have been infiltrated have failed to perform. Everybody here understands what I am talking about.

Interjections

Mr Musosha: Nonetheless, we are going to sort out these many problems after opening up the drainage around the area next to B. H. Diesel Services near Soweto Market. After that, we are going to go into Kanyama. Before the New Soweto Market is officially handed over to marketeers and a committee, we have started correcting the many problems that have surrounded this market by providing appropriate drainage. As we work on the drainage along Los Angeles Road and other roads that lead into the new market, at some point we are going to break the Los Angeles road so that there is release of the water that collects around the market. This will allow for the offloading of the flood water into the right side of Los Angeles road and onto Lumumba road so that it is disposed off properly.

So, construction of a relief culvert is going to be the answer to flooding in this area. Furthermore, many marketeers have so far been sensitised and they have accepted to move from the area. A lot of marketers have moved to a new area and very few are remaining. This is also going to help us get rid of street vending in Lusaka and we are, therefore, appealing for serious political will from both sides of the House.

Madam Chairperson, the issues of cholera, like I have said, is because of the lack of a  proper drainage system. However, another cause is bad toilets. The poor location of toilets, which has been neglected by the local authorities led by councilors who do not attend meetings, has brought about a lot of problems.

  Therefore, I wish to request all the councilors at Lusaka City Council to be attending the council meetings so that we can make correct decisions for the city of Lusaka to be in its expected condition.

Madam Chairperson, we have formed eight water utility companies countrywide. Recently, I toured Northern, Central, Eastern and Southern provinces. My colleague here went to the other provinces apart from Luapula Province which has remained. We are working hard to ensure that a water utility company is opened in Luapula Province very soon.

Over the LGSC, admittedly, having it in place is a requirement if we are to develop because we certainly need qualified personnel to run our local authorities. We need correct people in the correct positions to run our local authorities. At the same time, it must be observed and accepted that as we welcome the issue of LGSC, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing should remain responsible to give guidance as to what should happen or how the commission operate unlike in the past where it was been parallel to the ministry.

Madam Chairperson, the LGSC …

Interruptions

Mr Musosha: … must be reporting to …

Mr Sichilima: Do not listen!

Mr Musosha: … the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. On municipal bonds …

Mrs Masebo: Do not be scared!

Mr Musosha: … the Government is preparing a comprehensive report to Cabinet to address the problem that has been caused by the inability to issue the same as originally planned.

Today, the municipal bonds have accumulated a debt of K14 billion even before the implementation of the programme could start. In essence, we are trying to make sure that correct things are done so that we move forward.

Madam Chairperson, local government as a road authority, in this budget has proposed to build capacity of its personnel. As a Ministry, we discovered that many of our directors of engineering have no qualifications. They do not have the capacity to run local authorities as road authorities. Therefore, we have entered into an agreement with the National Council for Construction to run a course where these officers can be trained. Once they have been trained, capacity is going to be built in them.

Mr Muntanga: Who?

Mr Musosha: At the same time, we have agreed with the RDA as to who should do what because those that have been following the advertisements in the newspapers must have noted that, today, a certain road would be advertised by them and then two weeks later, the same road shall be advertised by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Certainly, we need to agree as to who should do what so that we reduce on double payment or misuse of resources.

On the CDF, I want to request all hon. Members of Parliament to behave responsibly towards this fund by attending the necessary meetings at local government level. The failure to attend council meetings is going to make it very difficult for them to know what should be done where.

Therefore, I wish to request all the hon. Members of Parliament to advise their council officials to submit their returns in good time if they expect CDF to be released in good time.

Over the review of the CDF guidelines, it is unfortunate that the money was disbursed before their release and those who are serious with work have already started using this money. Certainly, instructions have been given and we are going to follow those instructions.

On the points made by Hon. Mwiimbu that the budget is not adequate to provide infrastructure and to build capacity in the councils, the Government has introduced to councils as follows:

(a)  restructuring grants which are going to support councils to pay their debts to their creditors;

(b)  recurrent grants which are going to help in supporting councils to meet their operational costs which includes supplementation on personal emoluments;

(c)  capital grants which are going to help support councils in infrastructure developments; and

(d)  grants in lieu of rates, which are going to help pay councils for properties being rented by the Government properties in all the districts on their valuation that are well submitted.

As regards fire cover, everybody understands and knows that this Government in 2007 bought fire fighting equipment for all municipal councils and provincial towns like was stated by Hon. Mwiimbu. This was done to address the shortage of the same in the country and it is just good to give praise where it is due.

Hon. Chongo has talked about Members of Parliament having special treatment at council level through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Like I have said, I wish to request hon. Members to find time to be with their councils to go and decide what should be done where they think certain things should be done.

Mr Muntanga: That is what you think?

Mr Musosha: Regarding Hon. Lubinda’s statement concerning budgetary allocations at our ministry, we received a document from his council. A budget proposal of K168 billion plus …

Mr Lubinda: Aah!

Mr Musosha: … and in this budget, after scrutiny, there was no mention about the area of service delivery to the communities that are going to contribute to this budget. Certainly, where is the seriousness of this council?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musosha: Unfortunately, hon. Members of Parliament, you come here and say certain serious things prematurely on the Floor of this House regarding certain situations. You should learn to observe the situation first so that you know clearly what you are supposed to say.

Interruptions

Mr Musosha: It is the Government’s duty to help all councils in the country by providing them with the required grants or money so that they can provide the social services required to the people.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Madam Chairperson, in winding up, I just want to make a few comments.

There was an allegation from Hon. Masebo that the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign” has been scale down. We shall continue with this very important programme because it is important for us to eradicate such as cholera and keep our towns clean. That is why we have provided motor vehicles and we shall continue to budget for this programme so that its implementation continues.

On the issue of street vending, we shall continue to address this issue. We shall continue constructing markets as we are doing throughout the country so that this particular problem is eradicated.

There was an issue of Lusaka City Council’s revenue. This council raises a lot of money hence, it is a billion kwacha council and its budget is in billions of Kwacha. As such, we expect better performance from the Lusaka City Council. The Lusaka City Council can do better than it is doing especially if it reduces on politicking.

On the issue of the LGSC, we need it. We shall bring legislation to this House to bring about the LGSC and at that stage, we shall debate the pros and cons of establishing it. We have consulted widely and the Local Government Association (LGA) has been in the forefront of advocating for the establishment of this particular commission.

In the Public Service, we have the Public Service Commission (PSC), Teaching Service Commission (TSC) and Police and Prisons Service Commission (PPSC). We have seen that it is easy to provide personnel in a particular field to almost all the parts of the country if we have commission. We shall run the LGSC in the same way we have been running the other service commissions so as to ensure that it performs to our expectations. The intention of the Government is to proceed with the introduction of this particular service commission.

As regards the issue of grants to councils, it was alleged by Hon. Mwiimbu that councils cannot stand on their own. Yes, they cannot. That is why we are providing various grants. In my policy statement, I read out a list of various grants which will be provided to councils. This is a way in which we are empowering councils and providing financial resources required to run councils.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 20/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20/06 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Infrastructure and Support Services – K240,516,919,241).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 02 – Formation of Water Utilities – K750,000,000, they budgeted for K17,530,000,000 last year. Why this reduction?

Secondly, Madam Chairperson, on Programme 17, Activity 02 – Water Supply Development – Construction and Rehabilitation of Water Points (Boreholes) (21) – K25, 000,000,000, there was a budget of K54.5 billion last year. Will the Vice-President explain why there is this reduction? Is it a contribution to what the donors will give us?

The last one, Madam Chairperson, is on Programme 21, Activity 03 – Capacity Building for Ministry of Local Government and Housing (DISS) – K13,500,000,000, what is this for because the Nkana Water and Sewerage Company (NWSC) is a profit making institution and we expect it to stand on its own?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Madam Chairperson, the first question regarding what is on Page 311, the reduction is due to the fact that a lot of water utility companies have already been formed and so we are just going to continue with the programme of implementation.

On the NRWSP, this initiative is about the construction of water points, sinking of boreholes and community mobilisation, provision of support to district water and sanitation education programmes. The reduction is due to a decrease in donor support for the programme.

With regard to the issue of support to NWSC, this programme involves the rehabilitation and maintenance of its water supply and sanitation system. It also seeks to develop capacity for monitoring and evaluating the new programme.

 I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 9, Activity 02 – Rehabilitation (3) – K2,000,000,000, could the hon. Minister indicate to this House which three townships in Southern Province had their water supplies worked on using the K12.4 billion that was expended last year and which ones they intend to spend the K2 billion on so that they are held accountable at the end of the fiscal year?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Secondly, can the hon. Minister indicate on Programme 14, Activity 02 – Support to Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company (13)  – K17,866,666,667, may I know the relationship between this amount which is allocated in the budget and the K25 billion which this Government owes Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company(LWSC) for non-payment of their water bills. What is the relationship between the two? Is this going towards that or have they allocated K25 billion elsewhere to liquidate their indebtedness to LWSC?

Madam, on Page 313…

Madam Chairperson: Order! If we allow to stand, sit and stand, we may take long. The hon. Minister should just take note of all the questions and then respond to them at once.

Mr Lubinda: Yes. May I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 7, Activity 02 – Construction (39) – K18,693,333,333.

Madam, that activity indicates that there will be a construction of 39 urban markets this year. I would like the hon. Minister to read from his notes the locations of the 39 markets for which he seeks K18 billion. It is in the interest of this House that this information be put on record. We need to know where these markets will be built so that they are not built where people do not live. We do not want them built in constituencies with nominated hon. Members of Parliament.

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda, you are just supposed to ask a question. If there is need for clarification, the Chair will do that.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Deputy Minister will answer, but I just want to clarify the footnotes. On Unit 3, Programme 7, Activity 02 - Construction (39) – K18,693,333,333.The number 39 does not represent the  the number of markets or projects. The footnotes are explained on page 315. For example, 39 relates to the cooperating partner that is funding the project. In this case, it is the European Union (EU).

Madam, on Programme 9, Activity 02 - Rehabilitation (3) – K2,000,000,000, 3 does not refer to markets. It refers to the funding agency which is KFW.

Hon. Opposition Members stood up to ask questions.

The Chairperson: Can we first have the answers to the questions. That was a response to only one of them. Let the Government respond to all the questions.

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, Unit 2, Programme 9 – Fifteen towns supplied with water in Southern Province include Livingstone, Choma, Siavonga and other towns.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which ones?

Hon. Government Member: Aah, imwe!

Hon. Opposition Members: Which ones?

Hon. Government Member: Bamalukula imwe!

Dr Puma: They are fifteen and the Vote has been reduced because most of these programmes are near completion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

The Chairperson: Hon. Members on my left, do you need the Chair to intervene? If you need further clarification, wait until the response is given. The Hon. Minister will not respond to your other questions when you say which one because he will stop answering to think about your questions. Give the hon. Ministers an opportunity to respond in an orderly manner just as you were given the opportunity to ask.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Dr Puma: Thank you, Madam. On Unit 3, Programme 7, Activity 02 – Construction (39) – K18,693,333,333, the urban market development programme involves construction of urban retail markets in urban cities like Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe so that we provide decent trading places and alleviate poverty. This Vote has been reduced as a result of the completion of some of these projects.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Thank you Madam. The question was very specific. We want to know which fifteen towns or cities he is referring to. He has mentioned three. Which are the others?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! His Honour the Vice-President will help us with an explanation on Unit 3, Programme 7 - the Fifteen Towns - Water Supply (Southern).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I think there is confusion. It is not fifteen towns, but fifteen water supplying points. These are points where water will be supplied.

I thank you.

Laughter

The Chairperson: They have the information and they have told you that it is not the towns as you know them, it is the water points.

Laughter

Mrs Kapata (Mandevu): May I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 04 – Construction of VIP Latrines -.K2,000,000,000. I want to find out where these toilets will be built. Is it the urban or rural areas?

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, VIP latrines are constructed in rural areas.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Chairperson, I …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}
 
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was about to draw your attention to Programme 20, Activity 02 – Feasibility Studies and Design – K2,078,766,667, Activity 04 – Capacity Building, Activity 05 – National Water Supply and Sanitation  Policy Development. If you cannot build capacity, you cannot sponsor the National Water Supply …

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Mulenga, it is not time to debate your opinion.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Okay.

The Chairperson: This is time for clarification.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I thank you. When will they build the capacity of Kwacha residents who have had no toilets for a very long time?

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: There is no provision for capacity building for Kwacha and, therefore, that question is irrelevant.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Chairperson, I have two similar questions on different Votes. Firstly, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 20, Activity 04 – Capacity Building which has not been provided for this year and if we link that to page 357, …

The Chairperson: Order! Is that Programme 20?

Ms Imbwae: Yes, the first one is on Unit 2, Programme 20, Activity 04 – Capacity Building. Secondly, I want to ask on Vote 29, page 357.

The Chairperson: On which page?

Ms Imbwae: Madam, page 357, Vote 29/ …

The Chairperson: No! We are on Vote 20/06 – Loans and Investment – Local Government and Housing – Infrastructure and Support Services.

Ms Imbwae: I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, capacity building was done last year, but we are cutting down on costs this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/01 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Human Resource and Administration – K6,954,596,143).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 13 – Preliminary Works for Office Building – K100,000,000.00. What Preliminary Works for Office Building connote has the K100,000,000.00 been allocated for? What does that include?

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, the office building activity is a new one.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, obviously my question has not been answered. I would like to know what preliminary works for office building means. Is it preliminary works for constructing an office building or repairing the office? What is it that is included in that Vote?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, this is very simple. It includes preparation of plans, tendering and preparing for building offices.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Answer questions properly.

The Chairperson: Order! No discussions across the Floor of the House. Debate through the Chair.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 8, Activities 02 – Women Rights Meetings/Workshops – K14,750,000.00 and 03 – International Women’s Day – K58,737,469.00. What is involved in Activity 02 – Women Rights Meetings/Works? Is this money coming down to the women at council level or is it just for the ministry headquarters?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, Vote is self explanatory. The money under it is meant for workshops and meetings.

Mrs Musokotwane: For whom? Is it for the headquarters or councils?

Madam Chairperson: Order! Wait until he finishes then you can ask your point of clarification.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, this is for the for activities at the headquarters.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Vote 29/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/05 (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Local Government Administration Department – K182,103,052,526.00).

The Minister of Finance and National Development (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment under unit 4, Programme 9 - Local Government Fund – (PRP), Activity 01 – Constituency Development Fund, by the deletion of K67,500,000,000.00 and the substitution therefor of K90,000,000,000.00.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 29/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/06 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing - Infrastructure and Support Services Department - K12,284,699,934).

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 12, Activity 05 – International Toilets Day – K119,200,000. This amount has shot up this year from K37,579,200 to K119,200,000. Can I have an explanation for this and will it continue to shoot up.

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, this programme is meant to sensitise the whole country on the importance of good toilets since it is an International Toilets Day.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 3, Activity 04 – Markets and Bus Stations Boards – K22,000,000 considering that last year, we had budgeted for K22,000,000 and this year, we are budgeting for the same amount. When will these boards be constituted considering that the law was passed some two years ago?

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, nothing much has been changed under that programme and very soon, it will come to an end.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I am being informed that this programme will come to an end. Are you ending the programme without constituting the boards or what?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, very soon, the boards will be advertised and then they will be constituted. This will be done this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 9, Programme 3, Activity 03 – Fire Safety Operation and Management. I want to know why there is no allocation this year since we have a lot of fire accidents in Lusaka.

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, this programme has been transferred to the Local Government Administration Department.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 29/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/07 – Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Government Valuation Department – K3,243,655,287).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I have three questions. May I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 1 – Personal Emoluments – K679,202,644. Can I know the relationship between the total of K679,202,644 for Personal Emoluments and the moneys that Councils pays as wages or salaries for officers in the Government’s Valuation Department.

Madam, secondly, on Unit 2, Programme 7, Activity 04 – Acquisition and Disposal of Assets (Mission Abroad) – K77,752,500. Can His Honour the Vice-President kindly educate me on what is meant by Acquisition and Disposal of Assets (Mission Abroad) in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Madam Chairperson, thirdly, may I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 7, Activity 09 – Submission of the Drafting Rating Act to the Minister – K3,000,000. Can the hon. Minister or better still, His Honour the Vice-President explain to this House what K3,000,000 was spent on under this activity last year?

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order! I do not know what Mr Lubinda is looking for because this particular activity was debated on last year. Therefore, we are not discussing any report based on this. You can ask on what we are dealing with right now.

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, the money which comes from local authorities to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for valuation is merely a contribution. The works that are conducted by the valuation officers are not worth the amount that the local authorities pay. Therefore, the ministry and the local authorities meet the costs together. It does not mean that the councils pay for the services.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Chairperson: What about the next question, Acquisition and Disposal of Assets (Missions Abroad)?

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, the funds are meant to help the ministry value properties owned by Government in foreign missions.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 7, Activity 01 ─ Facilitation and Appointment of Members of Rating Valuation Tribunal ─ K26, 760,000, Activity 02 ─ Facilitation and Appointment of Members of VSRB ─ K23,377,500, Activity 05 ─ Valuation Surveying Rating Board Secretariat ─ K 30,322,500 and Activity 06 ─ Review of Rating Legislation ─ K137,505,000. Would the hon. Minister explain the increment in money allocated to these activities this year?

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, we all agree that there are so many structures that have been constructed but not been valued. For the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to carry out a successful valuation exercise, it requires a lot of money. The demand for many buildings to be valued is what has necessitated the rise in this contribution.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has only answered the question regarding Activity 01. I would like him to explain where this valuation will be done.

Madam Chairperson: Actually, Hon. Mwila, all related the six activities are related. They are all connected to the valuation exercise. 

Mr D. Mwila: Even Activity 06?

Madam Chairperson: Review of rating legislation is part of the process, unless you are talking about legislation to the valuation.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, this entails some increased activities under this particular activity in terms of review of review of legislation.

Mr D. Mwila interrupted.

The Chairperson: The hon. Member knew the answer.
Laughter

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 365, Programme 1, Activity …

The Chairperson: We are not there yet.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, in response to one of the questions I asked earlier, concerning acquisition and disposal of assets, mission abroad, the hon. Minister said this was to facilitate for the valuation of Government property abroad. I would like to ask whether he is not confusing that with Unit 2, Programme 7, Activity 05 ─ Asset Valuations for Government Departments and Ministries ─ K66,290,768. If that is not the case, can you please explain?

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: These are missions abroad and not local.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, may I draw the attention of those who are answering from their Benches to the fact that …

The Chairperson: Order! Continue asking your question.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the narration for the question I raised is acquisition and disposal of assets, mission abroad, and not valuation because the valuation he referred to is at Activity 05, which involves asset valuations for Government departments and ministries. Obviously, even those aboard are properties of Government ministries. What is this disposal and acquisition all about?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, the difference is that one is local and the other abroad. The valuation of assets abroad is pending disposal. Therefore, one is local and the other is abroad.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Lubinda interrupted.

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Lubinda, let us move together.

Vote 29/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/08 ─ (Ministry of Local Government and Housing ─ House of Chiefs Department ─ K21,599,962,320)

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 04 ─ Transport Management (Purchase of Utility Vehicles) ─ K60,000,000. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what type of utility vehicles are worth K60,000,000.

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, that provision is also required to meet the costs related to repair and servicing of vehicles.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit1, Programme 3, Activity 02 ─ Retainers Terminal Benefits and Long Service Bonus ─ K800,000,000. The same amount of money has been maintained. I would like to find out whether even the arrears are included in this.

May I also have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 7, Activity 04 ─ By-elections for House of Chiefs Members ─ K50,000,000 and Activity 07 ─ Dispute Resolution ─ K30,000,000.

Madam Chairperson, last year, there was no allocation for by-elections for the House of Chiefs members, but this year, K50,000,000 has been allocated. May I know why? Secondly, the allocation for dispute resolution, which was K50,000,000 last year, has come down to K30,000,000. Will His Honour the Vice-President explain whether the dispute in my constituency concerning Chief Mwenda is also covered in that allocation?

Hon. Member: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mwila, let us not go that way. You have the time to ask about such issues. For now, let us look at the Budget because we will not go back and look at the different disputes.

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, on Unit 1, Programme 3, Activity 02 ─ Retainers Terminal Benefits and Long Service Bonus ─ K800,000,000, there is no increment because we look at the number of the people who are supposed to be paid. If it amounts to K800 million, then that is what is put in the Yellow Book.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, there are no arrears included.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 8, Activity 03 − Traditional Ceremonies − K30,000,000. I would like to find out whether His Honour the Vice-President is aware that if this amount is divided, each province will receive approximately K3,000,000. Is he also not aware that this amount will only be able to buy hoofs of a cow?

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member should read carefully the head which are dealing with. This is House of Chiefs. This allocation is to facilitate the movement of chiefs. Therefore, the issue of traditional ceremonies is comprehensively budgeted for under the Ministry Community Development and Social Services.

 I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 29/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 29/09 ─ (Ministry of Local Government and Housing ─ Decentralisation Department ─ K2,033,230,357)

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): May I have clarification on Unite 3, Programme 10, Activity 01 − Finalisation of Sector Devolutions − K20,000,000. Last year, this sector was allocated with K339,000,000. This year, for finalisation of the same sector, only K20,000,00 has been allocated. Could the hon. Minister kindly, indicate…

The Chairperson: Could you help again. The Chair has not followed. Can you start again.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson,  may I have clarification on Page 368, Unit 3, Programme 10, Activity 01 − Finalisation of Sector Devolutions − K20,000,000. For this year, this vote has been allocated with K20,000,000. For a similar activity last year − Sector Devolutions…

The Chairperson: Order! Where is that?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, that amount is recorded on Page 367, Programme 7, Activity 03 − Sector Devolutions − K339,000,000. My question is that granted that Sector Devolution work was done using K339,000,000, what aspects are remaining to finalise the sector devolutions for which K20,000,000 is requested for.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, may I have clarification on unit 3, Programme 11, Activity 06 − Resources Mobilisation for the DIP − K12,000,000. Could His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice indicate what kind of activities the Decentralisation Department is going to undertake in mobilising resources beyond the ones that this Parliament is being asked to approve and how those resources shall be captured in the budget.

Mr Musosha: Madam Chairperson, the money which was allocated last year for that programme was meant to run workshops for all ministries. All the workshops were held last year. The money for this year is for just for finalisation of sector devolutions.

  I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, the programme also requires to procure office equipment and develop capacity among staff who are involved in resource mobilisation for the DIP.

 I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 29/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 68 − (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources − K165,825,196,257).

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to present a policy statement in support of the 2009 Budget Estimates for Head 68 − Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

Madam Chairperson, in order to appreciate the budget estimates for my ministry that are about to be debated, it is important that hon. Members of the House are refreshed on the mandate of the ministry. The ministry’s mission statement is “To provide the policy framework for the management and development of tourism, heritage and natural resources and the environment in order to contribute to sustainable social economic development for the benefit of present and future generations”. This mission statement is delivered upon by three technical departments namely, environment, forestry and tourism supported by two departments of Human Resources and Administration Planning and Information. There is also a college under the ministry, which is called the Zambia Forestry College.

Madam Chairperson, at implementation level, the ministry has six statutory bodies namely, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), Zambia Tourism Board (ZTB), Environmental Council of Zambia(ECZ), National Heritage Conservation Commission(NHCC), and National Museums Board(NMB) and the Hotels and Tourism Training Institute (HTTI).

Madam Chairperson, the total 2009, budget estimates for the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources are K165,825,196,257.

In keeping with the Government’s overall developmental agenda of poverty reduction and employment creation, my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources in this year’s Budget reflects the priority placed on programmes with the greatest impact on the national economy and contribution towards improvement of livelihoods. In this regard, the focus of my ministry’s 2009 budget is to accelerate tourism development through public-private-partnerships (PPP).

Madam Chairperson, the House will no doubt appreciate Government’s focus on reducing dependence on the mining sector and the need to diversify the economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: The tourism sector, among others, has the potential to contribute to increased foreign exchange earnings and employment creation.

Allow me, Madam Chairperson, to present my policy statement by sectors, beginning with tourism as the priority area of focus.

(a)  The Tourism Sector

My ministry will this year focus on the preparation of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) for Kasaba Bay and a new Tourism Development Zone in Livingstone together with putting in place the attendant basic infrastructure required for tourism development.

It is now common knowledge that the current global economic downturn will no doubt impact negatively on the tourism sector. To absorb the likely impact, my ministry will during this period explore ways of diversifying and broadening the tourism products so as to maintain Zambia’s competitiveness.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: It is, in this regard, infrastructure development is at the centre of our tourism activities this year.

In this year’s Budget a total of K12.5 billion has been allocated for the preparation of the IDPs and for support infrastructure. In addition, another K5 billion has been provided specifically for the rehabilitation of heritage sites including putting in place infrastructure to open them up for investment.

Madam Chairperson, to step-up the marketing of Zambia as a tourist destination both locally and internationally, a grant of K3,430,036,033 is provided in this year’s Budget together with an additional K2 billion meant for tourism promotion activities. One of the main activities of ZTB this year will be to promote domestic tourism so as to cushion the local industry from external shocks but also to enable Zambians participate in this key industry.

In 2008, my ministry commenced the implementation of the Tourism and Hospitality Act No. 23 of 2007. A new licensing regime and regulatory system has been finalised and will be operationalised this year. In addition, my ministry in 2008 commenced the review of the national classification and grading system which has now reached an advanced stage and will be implemented during the course of the year. A total of K408,720,000 has been provided for these activities.

Madam Chairperson, it must be noted that even after diversification, Zambia’s major tourism product will remain wildlife for the foreseeable future. The ZAWA is the body responsible for managing the country’s vast wildlife estates. In this regard, ZAWA has been allocated K4,048,950,840 in 2009 to supplement its own revenue.

Further, ZAWA will this year start implementing a number of additional programmes aimed at increasing its revenue base. These programmes include a live sale auctioning of game; participation in the capture of animals for local and international game ranching; venison business by curling of abundant species to supply game meat in butcheries so that members of the public can have access to game meat; establish tourism block concessions in all national parks and increase tourism sites, thereby, inviting more investors; and the Lusaka National Park Project, where attractive key species will be introduced for the purposes of creating among others activities, photographic tours. The establishment of the Lusaka National Park has reached an advanced stage.

Environment and Natural Resources Management

Madam Chairperson, the long term prosperity of any nation depends on how well it manages its resource base upon which sustainable development depends. This year, the ministry will launch the National Policy on Environment whose aim is to ensure that economic development is not at the expense of the environment. The launch will be followed by countrywide awareness campaigns on the roles and responsibilities of all the players.

My ministry this year will develop a coordinated response in dealing with climate change in order to reduce our vulnerability to the adverse impacts of climate change. My ministry will also intensify its efforts to mobilise resources for the implementation of the National Adoption Programme of Action (NAPA) aimed at adapting to the adverse effects of climate change focusing on the critical sectors of agriculture and food security, natural resources (forests and wildlife), water, energy and human health.

Madam Chairperson, the review of the principal environmental legislation, the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act (EPPCA) of 1990, is in progress and will be completed this year. This is being done in order to align the law with the National Policy on Environment. Furthermore, the amendments to the environmental impact assessment (EIA) regulations will be effected to ensure that environmental considerations, through the application of EIA procedures do not in any way act as a barrier to the country’s developmental efforts.

Other than funding, one of the major constraints hampering the effective management of the tourism, environment and natural resources sector is the inadequate capacity of the ministry and its statutory bodies. In this regard, the implementation of the Environment and Natural Resources Management and Mainstreaming Programme aimed at strengthening the capacity of the ministry and its statutory bodies will be commenced this year. A total of K36,195,404,754 has been provided in this year’s Budget.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry recognises the important role that the forests play in socio-economic development. Forests are important sources of food, medicines, timber, domestic, energy and construction materials, to name a few. However, the level of deforestation in the country has been high. The latest assignment by my ministry through the Integrated Land Use Assessment Project indicates that the rate of deforestation is between 250,000 and 300,000 hectares per annum. This problem is likely to be exacerbated by the current job redundancies from the mining and other industries as people seek alternative means of livelihood.

In order to keep abreast with the changing socio-economic landscape, one of the main activities in the forestry sector this year will be to complete the review of the Forestry Policy of 1998. It is expected that the revised Forestry Policy will be in place towards the end of the 2009. The revised Forestry Policy will inform the revision of the Forests Act No. 27 of 1999 to strengthen its provisions including the restructuring of the Forestry Department.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to expanding the hectarage of land under plantation, my ministry aims to continue with forest plantation expansion programmes. The Kawambwa Rubber Plantation and Kaputa Renewable Energy Biogasifyer projects will both continue. In 2008, tractors and other land preparation equipment were procured for use for these two projects. A total of K1.76 billion has been allocated for this purpose.

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, allow me to state that most of the statutory bodies under my ministry have been struggling with debt burdens from historical statutory obligation arrears. As a result, these institutions are not adequately discharging their mandates as required by the various Acts of Parliament under which they were created. There is need, therefore, to dismantle the outstanding statutory contributions and provide adequate funding for programmes that would enhance the capacity of these institutions to become self sustaining, especially those that have the capacity to generate resources. In this regard, it is necessary that the approach to running these institutions should be purely business oriented. This is the approach that Government is encouraging the statutory boards to adopt.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief in my contribution to the debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I heard the hon. Minister say that animals are the ones that give them money through tourism. I would like to agree with her but I also want to believe that the money that is brought in this country by these animals is supposed to be used by us, the human beings. Now if this money that is brought into this country by animals is supposed to be used by us human beings, then as human beings, we should not be displaced in trying to create space for these animals.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, we can promote tourism in many different ways. There is a lot of space for human beings and animals to share in this country and if animals are pampered by Government, people should be hugged by Government.

Madam Chairperson, I want this Government my plea very seriously. The people that were displaced by must go back where the animals are now because that land is for human beings and not for animals. I hope the money that has been given to the ZAWA is enough to ensure that the animals are in wires and cages. At the moment, animals are freely roaming around my constituency, especially elephants. Early this year, at a place called Manyemunyemu, a woman was killed by elephants. At a place called Mainga, a man and his wife were coming from Livingstone they were both killed by Elephants which also ate the mealie meal which they bought. At a place called Siliyasila, a man was killed by elephants. At a place called Lwiketo, two school children were killed by elephants. At Matebe, a man was killed by elephants but fortunately the son who was with him managed to run away and reported the matter to the mother who was at home. At a place called Chanda Mulede, a man was killed by Elephants.Most of the incidents I have mentioned happened within five weeks.

Madam Chairperson, are these the animals we are going to compare to human beings? When the Zambia Wildlife Authority is told, they say the guns they have are not for killing animals, but poachers. They say, if they kill a poacher, they are promoted but if they kill an animal, they are arrested. This is what we are told by our security officers and they do not even care what they say to us.We need permission to kill these animals. I have indicated here how many people have died within five weeks in my constituency and yet somebody will come to say, they would rather keep animals than human beings. This Government must take people seriously. Right now people are saying the elephants will vote for them come 2011 and they are serious. Warthogs and duikers will vote for you come 2011 especially in Sichifulo…
Madam Chairperson: Order! Sichifulo is a dead issue in this House. Will the hon. Member continue on another route.

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, Warthogs and Duikers will vote for them especially in an area where people were displaced because of animals. If you have put animals there, you should know that those animals are going to vote for you. I would like this Government to take the Elephant issue very seriously because besides killing people, these animals have cleared all the crops the people were to harvest. They have eaten everything in the fields. Before they kill a person, they damage the crop or vice versa.

Madam Chairperson, the elephants must be removed as quickly as possible from my constituency. The Government must ensure that there is relief food for the people in my area.Since February, 2008 when the then Vice-President, His Honour Rupiah Banda promised the people of Kazungula relief food because of the floods, no food has gone there to-date. This is March 2009.In that area, if it is not the floods, it is a drought or elephants destroying the crop. At the moment, we have floods and elephants at the same time and so we should ensure that the people of Katombola Constituency are given relief food. The animals should be taken care of by Government otherwise we might be forced to take take the law into our hands because it seems, you guys do not know…

Madam Chairperson: Order! That statement from a legislator is not acceptable and you may withdraw it.

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the statement but, please, take the issue of the elephants very seriously. The Government can verify the names of the people who have died in the areas I have mentioned. I have can give the hon. Minister the number and sex of the people who have died so that she can go and confirm that these people were actually killed. Last time she went somewhere else to evict people but this time she can go somewhere else to evict elephants.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: That was good time management.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Chairperson, I appreciate very much the contribution by the previous speaker and I would like to add to it by broadening the scope a little bit.

Madam Chairperson, in Chiawa area, not only are people dying in really completely unacceptable numbers from the kind of accidents with the elephants, hippopotamus and other animals that the previous speaker mentioned, they are also having additional problems of the animals spoiling the gardens. The people live near the so called Matola Gardens which is on the same level with a river face a lot of problems. They cannot access the water front in any significant way because so much of the land along it has been given to investors. I do not care whether they are foreign or local investors but they are privileged rich people who are in commercial business at the expense of the marginalised local population.

Madam Chairperson, that particular population suffered terribly during the Rhodesian war or the war of the liberation of Zimbabwe and since then they have continued to be marginalised. The Government has continued neglecting these people. As former hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare, the hon. Minister should know what it is to be vulnerable, unrepresented and just simply ignored when it comes to the Government making deals with investors. She should bring her experience from the previous ministry to her current one because wildlife management is supposed to be used for community development and social welfare.

  The whole Administrative Management Design (ADMADE) project which was brought about in1976 when the former President Kenneth David Kaunda realised with a shock that this country was being devastated by heavily armed poachers and the so-called freedom fighter movements that were killing a lot of animals was supposed to ensure that hunting revenue was shared equally amongst people of a particular area. The programme did try to also ensure that revenue from game management areas were equitably shared between the communities, traditional authorities and Government. The hon. Minister would be well advised to look at some of the most recent investigations into the work of ADMADE not just to listen to what ZAWA or the Opposition political parties says. She needs to collect several different opinions. People are complaining left, right and centre that there is no equity in the sharing of money made from game reserves. It is a cacophony of complaints. In fact, my friend Major Chizhyuka the other day …

Major Chizhyuka:  Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … was making some calculations that the benefits of ADMADE in a certain game management area was something like K800 per person per year.

Mr Matongo: K120.

Dr Scott: Now, he may have been exaggerating, but I don not think he was very far from the truth. What the local communities are making out of these game reserves are peanuts. When you evaluate the whole process of transferring the money made from  these game reserves to the people in the local communities through the different channels, in many cases, you will find that it does not actually even reach them.

Major Chizhyuka: Less than tissue paper.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, while we are still talking about ZAWA, the hon. Minister might care to take a trip one day from Ngoma down to Bbilili through the southern end of the Kafue National Park. She will find out that the entire area has been devastated. It is a desert. There a few beasts and very few hyenas. It is not a game park but a desert. It continues as a desert for something like 150 kilometres until you find some people and still there are no animals. However, you cannot blame those people for the extinction of animals in the southern part of Kafue Park. That was the work of certain former Angolan freedom fighters, if you want to put it that way, who had heavy weapons. They used to run a commercial meat operation.

Madam Chairperson, on the subject of the those who are in charge of managing  game management areas (GMAs) there is a tendency in this Government of referring to them as PPPs which does not in any way disguise a deal struck between a particular group of well connected …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … individuals. That is not a PPP. A PPP is something which is done transparently were anyone has an equal opportunity of being picked as a partner. You do not identify the investor that you want before the tendering process begins.

Hon. Opposition Member: Single sourcing.

Dr Scott: The partner is not single sourced as somebody is saying. Our fear is that this single sourcing when issuing tenders is not just happening in one sector, but in many. Evidence has shown that it is a trend that has kept growing. There is an amendment to the Mines and Minerals Act. It is being designed to benefit one particular well connected …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … investor. There are changes coming to the Customs and Excise Act applying to cell phones which will affect one particular well connected investor…

Hon. Opposition Member:  Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … and we fear and do not want to see it. We feel that, for example, when it comes to Kasaba Bay, the so-called PPP will not be transparently done, but a private deal struck between a dealer and our Government. That is not the way we run a Government. The United National Convention Against Corruption actually defines this way of doing things for the sake of benefiting or accommodating certain specific individuals as corruption.

Mr Lubinda: Yes.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I am sure this is not the last time we are going to hear about it because I have just introduced this subject on the Floor of this House. A Government is not supposed to be selective on which people to work with. A Government is like the Federation International of Football Association (FIFA) which establishes the rules of football but still allows many different teams from different parts of the world to compete freely in its many different competitions. The Government should treat all investors at the same level as capitalists. In the days of the one-party state, yes, people like Mr T. Roland could fly in here and go straight to State House and talk like he was the head of an independent state …

Madam Chairperson: Order! You must not start discussing individuals. Can you …

Dr Scott: He is dead, Madam Chairperson …

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Dead or alive …

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: … that is a personality.

Laughter

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, capitalists move around this continent and try to take advantage of the insecurities of the people in some countries. Capitalists do things in the old school way which is not the way things should be done. The hon. Minister has big stables to clean in her sector because there is a lot of direct individual influence even within this country emanating, especially from the Chipata direction.

Ms Cifire: Order!

Dr Scott: Order! You are from Chipata, Madam.

Laughter

Dr Scott: I am just introducing a topic which I am sure is going to fly in this House in later debates. More information on what I have said will come when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning brings his amendments on tax legislation.

Madam Chairperson: Order! You are not here to introduce. You are debating on the tourism sector. Do not tell the House that you are introducing something else.

You may continue.

Dr Scott: Well, let tourism be the flagship, Madam Chairperson, of that is how this House wants things to be.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: That was good time management.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving this opportunity to debate on this vote.

First of all, I think I will be kind to my colleagues. Let me say I have a lot of respect for this hon. Minister. I think she is hard working and I congratulate her …

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … for moving to the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resource. I think she has a level of dynamism which I hope she will take to her new ministry.

Hon. Members: Declare interest.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Yes, I can declare that interest as well, but it will not do any good…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Tell us.

Mr Milupi: … and also the Permanent Secretary. Mr Teddy Kasonso is from the tourism industry. When we were working in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines, he was in charge of circuit safaris.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: He is taking a certain level of experience to that ministry.

Madam Chairperson, the tourism sector is a growth sector. It can create employment and wealth for this country. The Government is right to focus on it, but let me add that the way the tourism sector is structured in Zambia, I think, is lopsided.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: These officials, the hon. Minister and Permanent Secretary must look at the way they can change things for the better. For tourism to be a significant contributor to the wealth of a country, Gross Domestic Products (GDP) and employment creation, it must have a local base. If you go to any country, be it the United States of America, United Kingdom and other places, the base for tourism is the local people. There are the ones that should run the tourism industry. They are the ones who should be in the forefront of visiting the tourist attractions. Those tourists that come from overseas are said to be the icing on the cake. If you structure your tourism like that, you will find that your country will stand to benefit. At the moment, tourism in Zambia is set up to attract foreign tourists. Such a situation will take us nowhere.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is also one of the ministries that contribute to non-tax revenue. I am pleased to note that last year this ministry contributed about K7.5 billion to the national Treasury and this figure may go up to K8.5 billion this year. It is a small increase but because I care about the increase of revenue for the nation, I note these things. I also note that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has allocated an extra K42 billion to increase the total budget for the ministry from K123 billion to K165 billion.

The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and National Resources has already said in her policy statement that the Government’s agenda is for tourism to contribute to poverty reduction and employment creation. It is in this regard that I want to address the hon. Minister. If our agenda is poverty reduction and employment creation, let us, for heavens sake, look at those areas that require this more than others. I have no problem with what the ministry is doing in Kasaba Bay, the Chipata/Mfuwe road, Livingstone and in many other places in the northern circuit. However, if our agenda is to reduce poverty and statistics show us that Western Province is the poorest province in the country, this sector should have also taken into account this province.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Now, let me remind the Government that Western Province has the biggest wild beast population in the world and this is a tourist attraction. The wild beasts live in the Liuwa Plains. We also have the second biggest wild beast migration in the whole world, which is second only to the one that takes place in the Serengeti.It takes place in Liuwa. Therefore, there is need for the infrastructure in the area to be improved so that the people there can benefit from tourism.

Madam Chairperson, the second biggest waterfall on the Zambezi River is in Western Province. Second to Victoria Falls is the Sioma Falls, which also has potential to bring tourists to the area thereby help in alleviating poverty. However, no attention has been paid to Western Province in this budget.

Madam Chairperson, the biggest traditional ceremony in the whole world is the Kuomboka Ceremony.

Interjections

Mr Milupi: Well, some of you that side are so comfortable with your jobs and do not read. The information I am giving you is what I have read on traditional ceremonies and yet …

The Chairperson: The hon. Member will address the Chair.

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, not even an iota of effort has been taken to look after the health of the people that in two weeks time will be at the Kuomboka Ceremony. Even sanitation facilities are left entirely to voluntary organisations. The tourists that go there have the potential to contribute significantly to the revenue of this country.

The ministry would have done well to take into consideration traditional ceremonies  like the Kuomboka and allocate resources for things like ablution blocks  so as to ensure that tourists that come to attend these ceremonies, whether local or foreign, have facilities to use. We get thousands of people that come to Lealui and Limulunga during the Kuomboka Ceremony. It is unfair to expect rural people that are already impoverished to create facilities to cater for all of these tourists. I hope that the Government will be able to come up with a supplementary budget so as to allocate money to this particular area.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: No! The Chair cannot see anything unprocedural, Major Chizhyuka.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, maybe, in order to allow his point of order …

The Chairperson: Order! It is not you who can allow the point order.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Milupi: These matters that I am bringing to the attention of this Government are very important. Every time I stand up, I point out the poverty that is in Western Province. By the way, the second poorest province after Western Province is Luapula Province and we must have developmental efforts that recognise this aspect.

I also want to be praised for speaking in a very short period of time and therefore, I would like to end by saying that …

Hon. Opposition Members: No! Carry on.

The Chairperson: Note that it is not the Chair telling you to continue.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: … in addressing poverty levels, the Government should always keep in focus the fact that the highest percentage vote for the Movement for Multi-party Democracy came from Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Good time management. {mospagebreak}

Hon. Shakafuswa, you may take the Floor.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important Vote. The future of this country, like all other countries, depends on the way we run and conserve our natural resources. I know that a lot of people will say that the lack of employment has led to some people turning to forests for survival. We have also said in this House that people are going to the forests for food and livelihood.

However, we have to also look at the impact of activities in the forests on our lives. I am saying this because we are feeling the impact of activities like deforestation today. I come from a lovely constituency which loves me a lot …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: … called Katuba, where I am headman and the source of …

The Chairperson: Order! Mr Shakafuswa, you should be very careful on what you talk about because you will invite people to debate on you being loved and being headman. Debate the issues under this Vote.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam, there are things which can be subtracted but there are also things which cannot be removed.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Regarding deforestation, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to work hand in hand with the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development so as to come up with alternative energy sources. If we continue on this path of not having alternative energy sources, at the end of the day, our children, their children and other future generations will not enjoy living in Zambia because the forest, which contributes to the rain cycle, will be gone.

In countries like Malawi, there is a national tree planting day whereby they are deliberately plant on this day different species of trees to compensate for those that are lost due to deforestation. In Zambia, we do not do such things and a look at this Vote shows that it is not one of the ministry’s activities. 

Madam, in Mozambique, ethanol made from cassava is a substitute to fossil fuels. One of my uncles here has even got a franchise to sell jellies made from ethanol which can be used for cooking. These jellies made from ethanol are even much cheaper than charcoal which most people in this country use for cooking. My business uncle that I am talking about is right there (pointing at Mr Kaingu).

The Chairperson: Order! There are no uncles here.

Mr Shakafuswa: In South Africa today, people are using sorghum as a source of energy. Ethanol from sorghum is actually about 60 per cent cheaper than the ordinary fuel. Cars in South Africa are moving on such types of energy. Now, what I am trying to say is that we can use our forests as a means of alleviating poverty.

    I have seen in Zambia a lot of resource which can be used as you go to Western Province from Kaoma. They have introduced species of cassava, which the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources can promote as an energy resource. The ethanol from them can be made into jellies which can be used for cooking. It is a very safe source of energy because even if the jelly was to spill, it will not burn you, but it is very effective. Therefore, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources should work with the Ministry of Energy and Water Development in putting up a fund for people come up with alternative energy sources.

We have not exploited the use of gas in cooking, but you will also discover that it has been proved scientifically that it’s cheaper to use than charcoal. I am saying so because we are cutting trees in order to make charcoal and the effect is that we are now having areas which used to be heavy rainfall areas having no rains because of lack of forests. We have to look at this very seriously.

Madam Chairperson, I was looking at this other project where European countries have introduced carbon tax. For instance, if you want to use a big car, VX or V12, you have to pay carbon tax. They are looking for countries or projects where they can spend this money that they earn whenever a car is emitting carbon which depletes the ozone layer. They want somewhere else where they can spend money maybe for the reforestation or projects which can reduce emissions of carbon. I do not know if we have taken advantage of such innovations. I have seen many countries where there are projects where they give a farmer money for cattle restocking. Out of cow dung as our dear Mr Mundia Sikatana used to call it, they are able to produce electricity. Those are some of things which we should be looking at in this age and era.

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about the opening up of the safari business to Zambians. When we talk about empowering Zambians, we know that we are endowed with natural resources, so why should people come all the way from abroad to come and do things which we can easily do. If you see most of these safari businesses, the infrastructure involved can be sourced at a minimal cost. A number of  Zambians are good at hunting, but if you go to the lower Zambezi you will not find a single Zambian who has got a hunting concession there. Look at the concessions which are given out, our animals are being depleted, but the people who are making money out of the hunting are not Zambians, but foreigners who run away after making their profits.

Madam Chairperson, if you empower a Zambian he will make money and be able to build a house or a stall for the mother and at the end of the day, there will be that multiplier effect on our economy. Let us not always think that when we move the other way and the money goes out, we will become more developed. I think we should make deliberate efforts to efforts to empower Zambians. When we talk about this empowering of Zambians and poverty alleviation, we need to start by creating opportunities for them in certain simple areas.

Madam Chairperson, I hear, Hon. Angela Cifire attended a display at the Lusaka Museum which when I was at the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, introduced a concept to trades school of using our own local resources, timber to produce quality products. Hon. Cifire, what you saw, those wooden chairs and tables was an order I gave them. I ordered my personal property …

The Chairperson: Order! That is not a style of debate in this House. You do not start addressing one hon. Member and talk to that hon. Member, speak to the House.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, during my tours, I found imported timber products somewhere. When I went to my trades school I said: Let us go to this place and have a look at the timber products that they are making. That timber was definitely from Zambia. They later also came to Zambia to look at the products that we were making in our trade schools. When they went back to their school, they began making better products than the ones I found when I first went there.

What I am saying is that let us have a policy regarding the extraction of trees from our forests. If you extract trees like Mukwa which is raw wood, it will take about 100 or 200 years for the stump that has remained to reach maturity. So when we cut certain trees, we cannot manage to replace them in your lifetime. Since we invest so much in these trees, I don not see any reason why we should export the timber made from them to South Africa or China and then we buy finished products made out of that timber from China or South Africa. I can assure you that most of these products from China are made out of our timber. Why can we not come up with a deliberate policy of nurturing good carpenters? I want to commend the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training for what for making it possible for students in trade schools to make quality products. I am happy I was not fired because I did not perform. It was just other things, but …

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, I managed to introduce to the trade schools how we can use our timber effectively. I told them that we are not going to ask the Government to come and fund you. You have got carpenters and bricklayers; therefore, you are capable of producing and making money for your institutions. If you go there, you will see the kind of products that these people are capable of making. Then you will realise that instead of us exporting this timber, all we need is to buy them equipment and then tell all schools in each district not to buy furniture from South Africa. They should buy it from this trades schools so that we encourage those boys and girls to open up companies and make money locally.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: That way when we come to the budget, we will not be fighting for resources here and there. We will also reduce on the 10per cent extra cost which people talk about because the furniture would have been sourced locally. You will find that eventually, the cost of doing business is reduced. Therefore, if the Ministry of Education wants 45,000 desks, they should go and see the quality of desks which the trades school  make. They do not have to import to import desks from South Africa. How do you give business to a foreigner when you know that your people are capable of making quality desks and the money you spend on the desks will be kept in your country? This issue of us exporting raw timber or just exporting timber in its semi process form should be stopped. I think we should have a policy where we say this raw timber has to used locally.

Madam Chairperson, if we have got no expertise at the moment to produce and we know that the demand for timber in this country is very big, why can we not change the syllabus in our trades school so that our pupils are exposed to modern methods of working with timber? If we do that they will be able to produce products from the timber that will meet the demands of the people. Let us check the way we are cutting trees from our forest and check these so-called investors who are investing in our country’s timber business because with timber there is no investment, it just involves cutting down trees. As adding to our poverty alleviation efforts, we can give that industry solely to Zambians so that they are able to make money even if they just sell timber which is their heritage.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief and speak at a very national level. I am very concerned as I debate this Vote of the attractability of Zambia as a tourism destination.

I really question whether our country is attractive to foreign tourists. I also question whether spending these huge amounts to open up new areas for foreign tourists is really worth it. I agree with Hon. Milupi that we should have developed our local base. Domestic tourism is the one that propels international tourism. I think it is cheaper for us to develop our capacity to promote domestic tourism, and then other things will follow.

Madam Chairperson, if I was a foreigner really, I wonder why I should come to Zambia because I do not see anything eye catching in this country. Perhaps, I would come to Zambia as an excursionist, but I will stay in Zimbabwe, cross over, see the Victoria Falls and then go back. Most of the so-called tourists you see in Livingstone are not tourists but excursionists. These are people who come to Zambia only for a short period and go back to Zimbabwe. They spend their money in Zimbabwe. I am really very concerned. We had a window when there was confusion in Zimbabwe to develop our tourism infrastructure but we never did it. The Opposition Members kept on advising this government to develop tourism infrastructure. If I was a foreigner, I would live in Zimbabwe, but cross over just to see the Victoria Falls, and then go back where there is good sanitation and infrastructure.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: We have missed an opportunity and I think there is no need for us now to invest heavily on infrastructure and invite international tourists. Let us just invest in promoting domestic tourism.

I want to remind this House, Madam Chairperson, that the problem we have in this country is we are always discovering things even after being independent for 45 years. This Government has a foundation led by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government. There were a lot of initiatives which they should have developed and I want to talk about issues that are close to Lusaka. We have the Blue Lagoon and Lochinvar national parks in my constituency.

Mr Matongo: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: These attractions were developed for weekend excursions for the Zambians so that they withdraw from the city and stopped politicking for 24 hours, have fresh air and think about things properly. We have not developed the infrastructure, especially the roads leading to these parks. The Blue Lagoon National Park is only a 100 kilometres from Lusaka. It was meant for local people in Lusaka, but we are now rushing to develop Kasaba Bay. Really, I am not against developing Kasaba Bay, but for me, I would rather we developed Blue Lagoon National Park, first of all, for local tourists.

If you go to Lochinvar National Park, you will find that the lodge there is more like a national heritage site. I wonder when you are funding these institutions what you look at. We are failing to construct roads to national parks for our people to easily visit those areas. I can tell you that the area connecting Blue Lagoon to Lochinvar is wonderful. You can go to Blue Lagoon, and then go by boat to Lochinvar. Afterwards sleep you can travel some more and sleep at the Chunga Lagoon. This lagoon I think has one of the highest birds’ species in the world.This why it is referred to as the birds’ water paradise.We have destroyed it and just thinking of upgrading Kasaba Bay now. We are just doing cross country. When will this Government pause and begin to work than work on cross country investments? I want to advise the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to really pause and go to the archives to see what the previous government had done. Let her work towards developing the projects UNIP had started. There is no need to destroy what was there and develop something new. The ministry should first work on what has already been developed.

I want to talk about our towns. The issue really of attracting tourists is something that is multi-faceted. All ministries are basically involved. We were talking about the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Lusaka, for example, has no good park and you want tourists to come to Lusaka, for what? If you are pressed, where can you go and you want tourists to come to Lusaka, to do what? There are no public toilets which are clean. There is no good parks. Take for instance the front of the former UNIP Headquarters, I think the Kaunda Regime had a plan for it. There is a big area there which can be used to develop a nice park. This town has no good park where you can go and play with your children or take your tourists or even to use it as a resting place. I want to suggest that the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources must take over the running of the parks in the country because  councils are underfunded. The ministry must take over some of these parks and develop them so that they can attract tourists. If a friend of mine came here, I would tell him not to go into town because there is nothing to see. The capital city is one of the first attractions to tourists. If the capital city is unattractive, there is cholera, poor drainage and no parks, why should someone come here? You want someone to just come and sleep in the hotels, and then fly to Kasaba Bay. If one did that, then that person is not a good tourist. You must plan properly and do your homework.

Finally, Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about our museum in Lusaka. The museum is one of the attractions in the cities. Our museums leave much to be desired. I went there a few weeks ago and was very disappointed. The museum has not been funded. There is no proper parking space around the museum for the visitors. The place is in a mess and you wonder which tourists can come and see that museum. Most of the tourists when they come in the country want to see the history of the country which cannot be seen properly if the museum is poorly funded. The workers there are demotivated. I think it is important for the Government to see to it that the museum is properly funded. We need to put all our history together in the museum. I also want to ask the hon. Minister to visit the museum so that she sees for herself what is obtaining there, and then find solutions to its problems. This museum is well placed because there is a lot of space around it. I also urge the Government to make a park near the museum where tourists can rest after visiting the museum. The money that is being given for diversification will not achieve its results if it is wrongly used. I would rather we use most of this money to develop local tourism.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

Dr Kalumba (Chiengi): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, I would like to first congratulate my colleague with his nationalistic debate and I wanted to say that Kasaba Bay was there before as well as in the UNIP days.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: You must just balance your account properly. I understand you meant well in the debate.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: I have another acknowledgement to make, Madam Chairperson. I want to pay tribute to my brothers and sisters in Southern Province, particularly Hon. Matongo who really loves animals. The people of Southern Province are our best examples of people who love animals.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I am very happy that we will continue with that tradition of embracing the culture of human beings living with animal life at some point.

Madam Chairperson, there are some forgotten parks that I would like the hon. Minister to look at. One is the Nyika Plateau National Park.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: As former Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, I visited all the parks and I urge you, Mum, to find time to go round and see these places. I know you are a very vibrant Minister. I have a very good image for the ministry I must add.

Nyika National Park when you go to the Malawian side looks like heaven, but when you come to the Zambian side, it is a sorry sight. It is a beautiful piece of real estate.  I must add, beaten only by the Liuwa National Park and I agree with Hon. Milupi when he talked about Liuwa National Park. It is a beautiful park worth seeing a hundred times over. I think we must keep these treasures we have close to heart and invest in them.

There is another forgotten park, Madam Chairperson, called Mweru Wa Ntipa. It is shared by Kaputa and Chiengi districts. It had beautiful natural fauna but somehow which have somehow depleted because of the war close to our border there. We can take would love to have more animals in Mweru Wa Ntipa Park by restocking that park.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about Mweru Wa Ntipa Park being a beautiful environment for animal life. However, animals at that park have depleted. The Government needs to take a decision to either restock it or degazette it. Those options are available. If we degazette it, it becomes available for human settlement. If we restock it, it increases animal life and improves the welfare of our people through tourism. At the moment, we have left it in a state where people cannot settle on it. The animal depletion was not the consequence of the people in Kaputa or Chienge. There was a war across the border and a lot of soldiers were crossing and butchering our animals. Let us be helped. We can improve that park and connect it to the Nsumbu National Park. This would increase the range of opportunities for tourism whether by local or international tourists.

Madam Chairperson, there are other opportunities. If we really want to get tourism going, we need to invest in the road infrastructure, particularly, for the purposes of local tourism. Most people cannot afford to fly to a park. If we take the road that goes from Tuta turn-off to Chienge, Mununga to Kaputa or from Mpolokoso or Kasama or Mpolokoso to Kaputa, it is not easy for a local tourist to get to a park.

We need to make the kind of effort being made in the Mfuwe/Chipata initiative. That effort is needed for all these parks. My brother, Hon. Hamududu, talked about Lochnivar National Park. I want to applaud him by first acknowledging that it is a very beautiful place, particularly for bird life in the lagoon.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It is a fantastic place and I think we need to invest there.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: One thing we need to do as local leaders is to first sensitise our traditional leaders so that when there is investment, there is no tag of war between the investors and the local population. Such sensitization is very important. We do not want to hear stories as in the case of the Sun Hotel. Some politician used to say that you will be killing mosquitoes if you put up a new hotel. I am sure the people in that area will benefit greatly if we improve the facilities at Lochniver Park in general.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I have visited it and I know it is a very beautiful place.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the forestry part. I have just come from Chienge and I breathe fresh air from there and, therefore, I am thinking very clearly.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba:  There is a very useful natural plant called rattan. You can, in fact, grow it on a large scale. The demand for rattan is very high worldwide. You find rattan products in most expensive hotels in Europe or Asia. Lets us teach our people to make good chairs from rattan. We can grow at a large scale in Chienge because the soil formation favours its growth according to scientists.

I would like to spend a few minutes to highlight the fact that the call to improve tourism as an economic sector must not be regional in nature.

Mr Sichamba: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Let us tap on the totality of our resources countrywide.

Mr Sichamba: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: If we are going to invest K165 billion in the tourism sector, we need to do it in such a way that over a period of time, you do not spread this money too thinly, but you have a programme where you develop all the regions because every region has unique possibilities.

Hon. Member: Exactly

Ms Tembo: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: There is no area in Zambia where there is nothing you can find.

Hon. Opposition Member: Tell them!

Dr Kalumba: If I go to my home of origin, the North/Western Province, you will find the traditional ceremonies and the beautiful source of the Zambezi River. It is a beautiful place. The Western Province, kwa haye, is a fantastic place. You have the Siomangwezi, Liuwa, Zambezi and Kuomboka. What else do you want? We have much to gain if we look at tourism from a provincial perspective, than when we simply pick one project here and another there. Let us plan on a long term basis by targeting one region at a time. I think there will be greater benefits that way.

Madam Chairperson, in the Northern Circuit, you can talk about the Lumambwe, Kundelungu, Tumbachushi and Kalambo waterfalls and the old historic paintings on the stones.

Madam Chairperson, if you followed me when I was touring the forest some years ago, …

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: … I found some very unique sights in Mweru Wantipa with old bushmen paintings which should be declared national heritage sights. However, no one has been there, except me.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: I can confirm to you that there are strange stone caves that are beautifully done. If I went there, you could not find me.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Now you see me, now you don’t.

Dr Kalumba: The local people call it “ichilengwa na Lesa” meaning created by God. When you really study it, it is man made. There must have been a Stone Age period when these caves were made geometrically correct. You can go there and watch the sun without anybody finding you.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Invisibility is not an act of magic. It is just an act of geography. That is all.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: I thank you, Madam Chairperson.{mospagebreak}

Ms Namugala: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to wind up debate on this Vote. Let me start my acknowledging the contributions made by hon. Members of Parliament in supporting this Vote.

Madam, indeed, let me say that our country is beautiful and it has beautiful sites all over. However, our challenge is lack of infrastructure which can make it possible for people to access these beautiful sites. The capacity of any Government to provide for the necessary infrastructure, in order to develop tourism, depends on its capacity to generate resources. I agree with hon. Members of Parliament who have said that there is need to develop the tourism infrastructure. Yes, there is need, but we do not have the capacity to provide road infrastructure and air transport to all the areas in need.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to comment on a few issues raised by hon. Members. Hon Musokotwane regarding the human-animal conflict. That is a challenge that we are faced with, as a ministry. I would like to assure her that whatever we do, as a Government, we do it for the benefit of our people. At no time have we even suggested that animals are more important than the people.

Major Chizhyuka: Question!

Ms Namugala: It is extremely important for me to stress that the people of Zambia own the animals.

Major Chizhyuka: Question!

Ms Namugala: The law pertaining to the protection of animals was created by this House. Therefore, this House is part and parcel of the law that provides for this Government to protect these animals …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … for the benefit of the people of Zambia. We value our people in Southern Province.

Hon. Scott talked about the issue of the Chiyawa area and how investors have benefited from the water front at the expense of the local people. I have taken note of this and we will look into this and see how we can harmonise the needs of the investors as well as those of the local people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: He also talked about my not being able to take into account the needs of the vulnerable people.

Madam, I would like to emphasise that this Government cares for vulnerable persons. The people who are living below a dollar a day are the ones that make us rise everyday and go to our offices to work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Therefore, I would like to state that we are here to provide for the people of Zambia, especially those in need. After all, we were brought here by the same people.

Madam Chairperson, let me also comment on the issue of sharing revenue earned from hunting safaris. I would like to say that, at no point has any one brought it our attention that the local communities are not getting what is due to them. What I know is that, they are getting 50 per cent of the proceeds.

Madam, I would like to acknowledge the points raised by Hon. Milupi. Thank you very much, as always, you bring a different dimension to most debates

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: He talked about our ministry’s capacity to raise revenue. The capacity is there and I would like to thank you very much for acknowledging this fact. Hon. Milupi also talked about the need for us to encourage local tourism. I would like to start with this House. When was the last time hon. Members went on holiday or vacation any where in the country?

Hon. PF Members: There is no money!

Ms Namugala: Hon. Members are the ones who have those extra resources to go and spend in the Kafue National Park.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Therefore, this should start with hon. Members.

Madam Chairperson, I agree with Hon. Milupi on the need to focus on growing domestic tourism and encouraging our people to be operators as well as tourists because they will be a more sustainable basis for our tourism.

Madam, the capacity of tourism to reduce poverty cannot be over emphasised. Just by a person going to open up a lodge in a rural area, I will not use Shang’ombo, I will use Muyombe this time, a lot of local people will get employed to build the lodge. This will, immediately, create opportunities for the local people to provide furniture, vegetables and all other things that are required at that lodge.

With regard to the issue of Kuomboka Ceremony, yes, it is very important tourist attraction and we acknowledge that. I also want to say that the Government has contributed to the rehabilitation of our beautiful Nalikwanda. I thought you were going to acknowledge that, hon. Member.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: I would like to thank Hon. Shakafuswa for highlighting very important environmental issues regarding deforestation.

Madam Chairperson, hon. Members of this House are community leaders who must help the Government to sensitise communities about the need to conserve our natural resources and reverse deforestation. We are losing our forest cover at a very high rate. 350,000 hectares of forest per year is a lot of vegetation cover. The Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources cannot effectively address this situation on its own. We need the help of hon. Members of Parliament who should begin sensitising the people in their constituencies about the harmful effects of deforestation. Through you, I would like to ask the hon. Members of Parliament to assist the Government in sensitising the people.

Madam Chairperson, Hon Shakafuswa also talked about the culture of replanting trees. Yes, there is need for us to encourage our people to develop the culture of replanting trees. I would like to inform the House that last year, during the tree-planning period, we launched a competition, as a ministry, where we are encouraging tree-planting at district level. At the end of this year, in December, we are going to recognise the effort by districts with some award, of some sort, for having the highest number of trees planted in that year. Therefore, I would like the hon. Members of Parliament to buy into this and help us sensitise the people that planting trees is good for our environment.

Madam, as a Government, we are trying our best to also ensure that the issue of carbon trading is brought home. There are many activities happening internationally that can help us to raise income, conserve our forests and vegetation cover. Carbon trading is one such initiative.

Hon. Shakafuswa talked about the safari business and the need to open it up to local people. I agree with him, but I would like to start by saying that Zambians are never barred. They are just never there. Zambians should come and approach us and compete for these concessions. We cannot go to them and say, please, come and compete. I would like to encourage Zambians to be aggressive than to simply complain behind closed doors. This is a liberalised environment. Come out! Compete and only when you have good reasons should you complain.

   I want to encourage our people to be aggressive as entrepreneurs to come and compete with the foreigners. As Hon. Shakafuswa has said, after all, these resources belong to them.

Sir, I agree with Hon. Shakafuswa when he talked about timber and I want to take note of what he has encouraged us to do. Hon. Hamududu was very negative indeed…

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: As usual!

Ms Namugala:…when he said that, “I am wondering whether Zambia is an attractive tourist destination”. That just leads me to the point that I have been trying to make that when we, Zambians do not become marketers and good ambassadors, when the foreigners hear us, they will start thinking that our country is not a good tourist destination. Therefore, I want Hon. Hamududu to change his attitude and become a good ambassador for Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Madam Chairperson, I want to also inform him that as the ministry, we have moved very progressively in ensuring that the Lusaka National Park is opened up within this year. Hon. Kalumba, Nyika National Park is in my constituency and I agree with what you said. It is beautiful just like many other places in this country.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to say that the issue of Kasaba Bay has nothing to do with where you come from.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: It is basically to do with what is best as an investment for this country. At this stage, Kasaba Bay provides an opportunity for Government to invest and get a return on its investment. Other parks will get funded from this year’s Budget. We have provided resources for Southern Province to continue with the tourism developments that are there. Government wants to open up more areas so that our tourists can stay in the country longer when they are here for maximum benefits.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/05 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Tourism Development Department – K57,679,666,697).

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 7, Programme 9, Activity 02 – Northern and Luapula Provincial Development Coordinating Committee and District Development Coordinating Committee Operations – K11,832,000. Last year, we had K21,272,000 and there is a reduction to K11,832,000. Can the hon. Minister explain why this is so.

Ms Namugala: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member is asking why there is a reduction. Obviously, we have had to tailor the suit to the size of the cloth. We do not have enough resources hence the reduction.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 68/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80 – (Ministry of Education – K2,777,571,479,070).

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present the Ministry of Education budget for 2009. My presentation is divided into the following parts:

Madam Chairperson, Part 1, the vision of the ministry, policy goals and the objectives, Part 2, the performance of the 2008 budget, Part 3, the challenge of the educational provision, Part 4, the 2009 planned activities and Part 5, the conclusion.

Part 1

The vision of the ministry, policy goals and strategic objectives

Madam Chairperson, the policy direction of the ministry is anchored in the vision of achieving quality education that is equitably accessible to all children, youths and adults. Our resolve in this direction is to ensure that we achieve quality learning in all levels of educational provision namely, early childhood care education and development, adult education, basic education, high school education and tertiary education.

Madam Chairperson, the policy goals through which the education vision has to be realised are access, equity, quality, efficiency, effectiveness, transparency and accountability. Underpinning these goals are the following operational objectives:

(a) enrolment of all eligible school age children in Grade 1 and retention of children in school until they complete the basic education cycle;

(b) creation of learning opportunities in such programmes as early childhood care education and development, adult education and skills learning centres.

(c) ensuring that all our education institutions and learning centres are inclusive of all learners with special attention given to girls, the vulnerable, children in difficult learning environments like the hard to reach rural areas and those that are challenged in different ways;

(d) raising the equitable participation rates of boys and girls at various levels of the educational system with special attention to reductions in wastage in the system;

(e) ensuring that there is measurable improvement in learning achievements of all learners at every level and in all institutions;

(f) maximisation of the benefits of every educational investment. This is the value for the hard earned scarce resources that are spent on the education sector at all levels; and

(g) protecting the integrity and credibility of the educational system through strict and stringent quality assurance mechanisms.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has outlined the strategic objectives which have to be followed in order to realise the vision and policy goals just outlined. These strategic objectives are:

(a) infrastructure development, which include construction of schools,          
         classrooms, laboratories, student facilities, teachers’ houses and rehabilitation and maintenance of dilapidated structures;

(b) teacher training, recruitment, distribution, retention and motivation with special attention given to teachers working in schools in rural areas;

(c) education materials procurement and distribution with special attention to education packs that will guarantee free basic education from Grade 1 to Grade 7; and

(d) curriculum review and reform at all levels to achieve relevance in the skills, knowledge and attitudes that the country requires for productivity and development in all areas. Special attention being given to the achievement of the highest levels of mastery in the basics of learning namely writing, arithmetic, reading and communication.

Madam Chairperson, these are the foundations of learning which every learner must master in the fundamental stages of education.

Madam Chairperson, the clarity of the vision, policy goals and strategic objectives of the education sector is a reflection of the Government’s commitment to education development in the country. The Government is, without any iota of doubt, highly committed to the development of the education sector.

In order to meet our vision, policy goals and strategic objectives, the focus of my ministry is on more and better classrooms, schools and other learning facilities for all children, youths and adults.

         Part 2
  
The Performance of the 2008 Budget

Madam Chairperson, allow me to inform this august House about the milestones made by my ministry in achieving the targets that were set for 2008. The main focus of my ministry was to increase access to education, improve quality of education provided and address the issues of equity in the sector. Our focus was on infrastructure development, teacher recruitment, deployment and motivation, education materials procurement and distribution, and performance monitoring.

Madam Chairperson, the enrolment for basic schools, Grade 1 to Grade 9 in 2008 was 3,336,009, which meant an increase from the previous years’ enrolment of 3,166,310 in 2007 and 2,986,781 in 2006. This represents a significant increase of 10.5 per cent in the period 2006 to 2008. For high schools, Grade 10 to Grade 12, the total enrolment was 236,547 in 2008 and 219,132 in 2007, which was an increase of 18 per cent from 2006. The numbers of children accessing entry of school indicates that the Government’s commitment to education provision is being realised.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry is creating opportunities for education for more children.

 (a) Teacher Recruitment and Deployment

 Madam Chairperson, in our efforts to improve the quality of education, I am glad to report to this august House that as at 31st December, 2008, 5,000 teachers had been recruited and deployed across the country. Of the 500 new entrants, 4,000 were for basic schools and 1,000 were posted to high schools. Most of the recruited teachers were posted to schools in rural areas.

In addition to the new teachers recruited, 300 teachers were recruited as replacements bringing the total number of teachers employed in 2008 to 5,300.

 (b) Infrastructure Development

Madam Chairperson, the goal set in 2008 was to construct 1,527 classrooms and 231 teachers’ houses. This was a very big construction programme to undertake within one year and it has not been done before in our country. I am glad to report that the completion level for our 2008 infrastructure construction programme was 90 to 95 per cent.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the success rate in completing the classroom construction is a benchmark upon which the ministry will hold the provincial and district staff accountable for their efficiency and effectiveness in implementing Government projects. Non-performing provincial education officers and district education boards secretaries will have themselves to blame if they are declared excess baggage that is holding back progress in education development.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, in improving access in the high school sector, the ministry successfully floated tenders for an additional 12 high schools. A total of 45 high schools countrywide are under construction at various levels. This programme will be continued in 2009.

The first phase of construction of Itezhi-Tezhi, Chitambo, Kazungula and Kafushi high schools, including teachers’ houses, administration blocks and hostels has been completed and the second phase contracts have been awarded.

Madam Chairperson, I am happy to report that Ndola Girls Technical High School, the first ever in the country, opened its doors to Grade 10 pupils in 2008. Additionally, I am happy to report that Chitambo High School has opened its doors to Grade 10 pupils this year. Enrolment of our children into new high schools that are being completed will, henceforth, be almost an annual event.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry began the construction of district education boards secretaries’ offices in Lusaka, Kafue, Livingstone, Chibombo, Serenje, Chipata, Chama, Mpulungu, Samfya, Mansa, Zambezi, Masaiti and Kabompo. On average, these are at 80 per cent completion level and are expected to be completed this year.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the construction of four student hostels at the University of Zambia (UNZA), Great East Road Campus and two student hostels at Copperbelt University which began in 2008 is expected to be completed this year.

Madam Chairperson, the construction of a new student hostel to accommodate 60 medical students was started at the Ridgeway Campus of the UNZA. Funding for this student hostel came from the Barclays Bank.

  Four contractors were given contracts in 2008 for works at UNZA. Two contractors are constructing four student hostels with a bed space of 640. One contractor is constructing roads and other facilities for the hostels and the fourth contractor is constructing a fence around the Great Road Campus of the UNZA. These construction works are going on at the Great East Road Campus;

Madam Chairperson, Mulungushi University was opened in January, 2008 and the academic year started in September 2008. The construction of student hostels and other facilities were undertaken in 2008 at the University. The founding council of Mulungushi University made an important historical decision in 2008. It proposed to the late President that one of its schools be named The Levy Patrick Mwanawasa Schools for Leadership Development.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I am happy to report that this proposal was accepted in writing by the late president.

In order to improve the quality of infrastructure development my ministry employed nine engineers in 2008 for the infrastructure section and they have been posted to the provincial offices

Madam Chairperson, a total of 110,714 double seater desks and 8,571 single seater desks were procured in 2008. Most of the desks will be distributed to schools across the country shortly. The amount spent was K48 billion. The distribution of the desks to the provinces will be as follows:

Province      Double Seater    SingleSeater         Total

Northern            15,141                 632              15,773
Eastern              13,139              1,140               4,279
Western            10,208                  511             10,719
Luapula               8,425                  552               8,977
Central               12,937                 733             13,670
Copperbelt         17,318              2,306             19,624
 Lusaka              10,257              1,135             11,662
N/Western            6,894                 674               7,568
Southern            16,127                 888             17,015
Total                 110,714              8,571           119,287

Madam Chairperson, these desks will shortly be distributed to all the provinces. I will therefore, be requesting hon. Members to monitor the distribution of desks to their respective constituencies and provinces.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa:  As I stated in my Ministerial Statement issued on the Floor of this august House, the Netherlands Government gave the ministry K30 billion for the procurement of double seater desks. I wish to thank the Government of the Royal Netherlands for this offer.

Madam Chairperson, in order to monitor all the activities in the education sector more effectively, sixty-one four wheel driven vehicles were procured for all the districts and provinces in the country. The total cost of the vehicles was K8.5 billion. The ministry spent K82 billion in 2008 on the procurement of textbooks for Government basic and high schools as well as for community schools and grant aided schools using both the decentralised and centralised textbook procurement system.

In our efforts to modernise the education system, 2,000 computers were acquired and distributed to schools, colleges and universities country-wide.

( c) Policy and Planning

Madam Chairperson, the final draft of the Early Childhood Care Development and Education (ECCDE) policy was developed and is waiting submission to Cabinet for approval.

A concept paper on the National Qualification Framework and National Qualification Authority was developed. Consultations with other countries are being planned in 2009 in order to have full experience on the establishment of the authority. Work on the Teaching Council Draft Bill continues in 2008 and it is awaiting presentation to stakeholders for their input before taking it to Cabinet. The development of the higher education authority continued in 2008 and it reached an advanced stage. The process to develop the literacy policy was also put in place. The policy is expected to be in place during the course of the year.

(3) The Challenge of Education Provision

Madam Chairperson, education provision in our country is a challenging task. The demands and expectation of our people everywhere are very high resulting in community initiatives to establish schools. The education needs of our fast growing schools age population are immediate and they can not be postponed. Each level of the educational system poses its own unique needs which have to be fulfilled.

The urban/rural dichotomy of our country poses the challenges of long distances to schools, overcrowding in classes as a result of rapid urbanisation, attraction and retention of teachers in rural settings pose another challenge. All these factors have resulted in the tension between quantity and quality, teacher supply and classroom sizes, textbooks and children numbers, community initiatives and Government provision, mass education and education of a few elites, cost sharing and Government financing of education. The Government through the Ministry of Education is aware of all these challenges. Close attention being paid to all of them through measures directed at meeting the education needs and aspirations of our people.

(4) Planned Activities in 2009

Madam Chairperson, the Government’s commitment to the education needs of our people is reflected in the allocation of 17.2 per cent of the National Budget to the education section sector. The total 2009 budget for the Ministry of Education which is which is money from the Government and external resources is K2.794 trillion compared to K2.146 trillion in 2008. This represents a 24 per cent increase from 2008. From the total budget for the year, K1.613 trillion has been allocated to personal emoluments whereas K1.181 trillion has been allocated to non-personal emoluments. Out of the non-personal emoluments, K511.8 billion has been allocated to infrastructure development.

Mr Matongo: Drink water!

Professor Lungwangwa drank some water.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Professor!

Mr Mwila: Ebaume aba!

Professor Lungwangwa: The programme and activities contained in the 2009 Budget have been formulated to address four priority areas.  These are access and participation, improving learning achievement and education quality, raising equity and making the system efficient. The budget of my ministry has focused on these four priority areas. Resources to non-essential activities like seminars and workshops have been drastically reduced.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

(a) Broadening Access and Participation

Professor Lungwangwa: The ministry is aiming at achieving the education for all targets in terms of increased enrolments through the constructions of new classrooms and schools and the expansion of existing ones. This is being supported by an effective infrastructure development programme that facilitates the construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of the educational sectors physical assets.

In the 2009 Budget, the ministry is targeting at the following:

(1) Enrolling all seven year old children into Grade 1.

This policy was adopted in order to meet the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs). The implication of this policy is that new schools have to be constructed in areas where the demand for education is not being met by the available school places.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has targeted to construct 2,500 classrooms in 2009 at a cost of K180,000,000,000. I should point out that the Operational Infrastructure Plan for 2009 …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … will be in the pigeon holes of all the hon. Members.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Ee baume aba!

Professor Lungwangwa: This allocation is double of what we had in 2008.

Hon. Government Member: Quality!

Professor Lungwangwa: The 2,500 classrooms will translate into an additional 1,103 classrooms on already existing schools. This expansion in classrooms in existing schools will result in more children being enrolled in our schools.

The total number of basic schools on new sites will be 797. Last year, the new schools on new sites were 231 indicating that the number of new schools this year has trebled.

The distribution of the 2,500 classrooms has been by province, district and community, through consultation with local communities in all areas.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The 2009 Infrastructure Operational Plan shows where the classrooms will be constructed and the amounts of money which will be spent on them.

Ms Changwe: Well done!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the completion of the 2,500 classrooms will create 100,000 additional school places.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This will be a very significant increase in education opportunities for our children. This is truly a development towards basic education for all by 2015.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

(2) High School Construction

Professor Lungwangwa: My ministry, Madam Chairperson, has made a provision of K10.8 billion for the construction of 18 high schools using the community mode of construction. In addition, a provision to facilitate for the continuation of high school construction that was started in 2007 has been made. A total K210,257,505,550 has been set aside in the 2009 budget to continue with the construction of forty-five high schools which have be constructed within three years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The number of teacher’s houses to be constructed this year will be 280 compared to 228 in 2008. Additionally, 560 VIP toilets will be constructed.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The total expenditure on teacher’s houses and the VIP toilets will be K30 billion. Most of the teacher’s houses and the VIP toilets will be constructed in the rural areas on the 2008 new sites.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the ministry has made a provision of K30 billion for the procurement of yet another 85,714 desks in 2009. This will assist in reducing the shortfall to 239,893.

(3) Infrastructure Development in the Universities

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has allocated K35 billion for the three university for infrastructure development. Mulungushi University has been allocated K20 billion, the University of Zambia’s allocation is K10 billion, K5 billion for the main campus and K5 billion for Ridgeway Campus and the Copperbelt University has been allocated K5 billion. The universities are expected to target these resources to infrastructure developments which will improve the quality life of the staff and students and the quality of the academic activities in the institutions, especially the expansion of libraries, lecture theatres and laboratories.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has in this year’s budget included K2.14 billion for high school thermo power requirements. Unlike in the past, the ministry will be funding the procurement of diesel generators for high schools which are not serviced by the national power grid.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This was a burden for high schools. It is my ministry’s desire to lift this burden hence the provision in this years’ budget. In addition, my ministry has introduced budget lines for utilities such as water, electricity, telephone services, internet and postal services. This is to ensure that the ministry is not accruing any debt when these services have been provided.

Madam Chairperson, on improving the quality of education, my ministry will continue to work towards improving the quality of education as stated in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) period. This strategic focus is linked to the ministry’s target of attaining relevance, effectiveness and efficiency which will collectively promote the prospects for quality educational services provision. To realise these qualitative ideals, the ministry is focusing on the following in 2009:

(a) curriculum development, the ministry will continue with its goal of improving the quality and relevance of education through the design of a comprehensive and diversified curriculum that is interlinked throughout all educational levels. Particular attention is being placed on ensuring that the revised curriculum is sufficiently responsive to the developmental aspirations of Zambia, in general, and to the special requirements of learners, in particular. The ministry has allocated K42.8 billion for the procurement of education materials in this year’s budget;

(b) Teacher training and deployment. My ministry is working at securing the attainment of quantitative improvements in teacher supply. In 2009, the ministry expects to have a net recruitment of 5000 teachers and K45 billion has been earmarked for this. The proposed recruitment of 5000 teachers will add to the existing 76,612 teachers thereby bringing the total to 81,612 teachers. In order to attend to the teacher’s welfare, a sum of K60.6 billion has been allocated to meet teachers’ outstanding bills such as settling allowance, leave travel benefits and terminal benefits and;

(c) upgrading of teacher training colleges. Madam Chairperson, my ministry is continuing with the process of upgrading and transforming Nkrumah and Copperbelt Colleges of Education into university colleges. The two university colleges will be opening in May this year with an intake of 600 degree students. The academic calendars of the university colleges will be aligned to the University of Zambia calendar under whose academic superintendence the institutions will fall. The ministry has allocated K5 billion for infrastructure development at the two university colleges.

The infrastructure development work at Mulakupikwa University College in Chinsali for training teachers of mathematics, science and information technology has been allocated K5 billion for infrastructure development in this years budget

My ministry has introduced a fast track distance education diploma upgrading programme for our teachers. This programme is for upgrading our diploma holder teachers to degree level and it will be offered by the University of Zambia. The programme will begin in May 2009 with an initial intake of 6,000 teachers. The cost of this programme is K3.5 billion.

Madam Chairperson, in order to improve the professional enhancement of our teachers and education managers, my ministry has with effect from 2009, reverted the National In-Service Teacher’s College (NISTCOL) in Chalimbana to its original mission.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The college will, henceforth, be exclusively for in-service programmes in teaching and education management only.

(4) Taking on Board Challenges of Equity and Equality

Madam Chairperson, in line with the education for all and the MDG targets, my ministry is taking measures to work towards the universal basic education provision to children. This essentially entails the facilitation of opportunities for citizens to have equitable access to all levels of education. The ministry is ensuring that the education system secures equitable access to basic education, paying special attention to the peculiar needs and requirements of the girl child, orphans and vulnerable children (OVC), children with special educational needs (CSEN) and those that are affected by and infected with, HIV/AIDS. An effective targeting mechanism to identify those to be supported is being developed. A total of K11.5 billion has been allocated towards the bursaries and school health nutrition programme.

Currently, 244,518 pupils are on the school feeding programme in the country. In addition, 1,341,000 pupils are benefiting from the treatment of worms and bilharzias.

Madam Chairperson, with effect from 2009 my ministry will no longer import foodstuffs meant to support the school health and nutrition programme in form of herbs. The ministry will procure locally manufactured food supplements and foodstuffs to support our school feeding programme.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This measure is directed at supporting our local industries, including the communities who are engaged in the production of local foodstuffs from our out grower producers. The money saved by this measure will go towards increasing the amount of foodstuffs so as to cater for more children that can access the school feeding programme.

(5) Enhancing Systems Efficiency and Effectiveness

The ministry is working towards a more decentralised system of delivery that would improve capacities of learning and training institutions in a manner that enhances their capacity to effectively and efficiently deliver quality educational services. To realise this, the ministry has been focusing on:

(a) School management;
(b) teacher management;
(c) teacher motivation; and 
(d) pupil retention and progression.

Part 5

Conclusion

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Give him water.

Professor Lungwangwa: I drink water.

Professor Lungwangwa drunk water.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I would like to underline the progress my ministry has achieved in strengthening its collaboration with our cooperating partners. Our cooperating partners are happy with the developments we are making in the education sector.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: I have already announced on the Floor of this House the endorsement of our application for accessing the fast track initiative (FTI) funds under the World Bank country assistance programme. This is a mark of confidence from our cooperating partners in the policies and programmes of our Government. In addition, our lead donors have also indicated their commitment to increase their funding support to the education sector. I am most grateful for this gesture of support from our cooperating partners.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The resources our cooperating partners are committing to the education sector call for the highest level of dedication to project implementation and upholding of the highest level of accountability and transparency in all our operations. These developments also call for improvements in our management of the education system especially increasing the participation of the community in construction projects, school governance and district plans. This support also calls for concerted efforts on the part of hon. Members of the House in giving support to the education sector.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, allow me to conclude by saying that improved education delivery demanded by our people which the Government is positively responding to requires concerted efforts by all stakeholders, namely the private sector, civil society and communities. This is critical in order to achieve the economic development take off we are aspiring for. It is my sincere hope that hon. Members have appreciated the efforts of my ministry in developing opportunities for education for the greater majority of our people. I, therefore, hope that my colleagues will give full support to the budget of my ministry whose main focus is to create education opportunities for all our children.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: With that very elaborate statement by the hon. Minister and with a lot of …

Hon. Government Member: Detail.

The Chairperson: … indeed detail and the acknowledgement from the hon. Members, one would think that the debates will be brief and to the point.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Chairperson, this is my eighth year in this Chamber and I have always criticised constructively. Over the last three years, the hon. Minister of Education has taken us through his programmes. How I wish the majority of our friends in Government could emulate that standard.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I want to tell you (pointing at hon. Government Members) …

The Chairperson: Through the Chair.

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, that is the difference between quality and quantity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: We may all be hon. Members of Parliament or indeed, hon. Members of Cabinet but others may be tall or short and others may be more blessed with the ability to listen and deliver as this hon. Minister delivered today.

Madam Chairperson, if you remember, four years ago this particular ministry had difficulties and the hon. Minister told us to give him one more year. If my sister Mumbi Phiri was here, she would have agreed with me that there has been an improvement. I would like to state that we want performance from this Government. The hon. Members on your right should not just come here and wear their glasses between the forehead and baldhead …

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … we want …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Matongo: We want them to be able to look us in the eye and say they have delivered development as the hon. Minister has done. I would like to appeal to all my fellow hon. Members here to pass this Vote without debate.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Chairperson: A request has been made.

Laughter

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, I want to support this Vote and secondly, I would like to thank the hon. Minister, the Permanent Secretary and the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) offices for doing extremely well …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: … in 2008. When someone does something good, we have to show appreciation by giving credit where it is due.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
RRR
Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, in March last year, we debated this ministry and when we adjourned sine die, the money was in the accounts at the districts.

Madam Chairperson, after a month the DEBS had already picked the contractors. I am talking about the infrastructure development. As we are talking, all the schools are at roof level. I agree with the hon. Minister that 90 per cent of the work has been done. I stand here as a Member of Parliament from the Opposition who is coming from the rural constituency and whenever, I go to my constituency, I am proud to see the work the ministry has done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Cross over!

Mr D. Mwila: That is what we want from other ministries. The Ministry of Health came up with an annual work plan, and up to now, nothing is being done to actualise it. From what has been said by the people from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and other ministries, you can tell that no ministry has come up with an annual work plan apart from the Ministry of Works and Supply. The hon. Minister stood up today and showed us his annual work plan for 2009. As we are talking, tomorrow, we will find the annual work plan in our pigeon holes and that is what we want. Why can other hon. Ministers not learn from him?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: The whole House is happy with him. The houses in terms of rehabilitation have been completed. What else do you want?

Hon. Minister, I just want to encourage you to continue with your good work. As a Member of Parliament for Chipili Constituency, I will give you all the support you need.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Me and my people will give you, your Permanent Secretary and directors all the support you need.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: We have had two people saying the same thing. If that is the way, must we also say something on the same?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to say one or two words on the debate on the Floor of this House.

From the outset, many hon. Members who have spoken before me have congratulated the hon. Minister for the job well done. In the same manner, I want to say congratulations to you hon. Minister …

Mr Sing’ombe: From the Independent Bench!

Mr Munaile: … your Permanent Secretary and staff at the ministry for the job well done. In the same vein, I will be failing if I do not commend my Provincial Education Officer, Mr Chanda and my DEBS, Mrs Kaila who have done a commendable job in Northern Province.

Hon. Mwila said that the schools in his constituency are at roof level. In Malole Constituency, they are finished. I want to commend you, Sir, for what you are doing in the ministry because it is easier for us at hon. Members of Parliament to follow what you are exactly doing in each constituency and that is what we want. I hope and pray that other hon. Ministers can take a leaf from you. Others are saying insufficient funds, but with little funds, you can still give us a programme of what you intend do unlike the saying we are constructing this and we do not know where. At the end of the year, no one follows and no one knows what has been done where.

Mr Singo’ombe: Masholi babamwi!

Mr Munaile: Having said that hon. Minister, I want to talk about what the late President talked about, making physical education (PE) an examinable subject in schools. Having looked at the budget, my only concern is that no money has specifically been allocated to PE and most people, teachers or headmasters may not be interested in sport. This situation may make them not do what you want them to do in this area.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Therefore, I want to tell these people run schools to encourage our children to be actively involved in PE. In the end, we are going to have sportsmen and women who will be able to bring pride to this country.

Mr Sing’ombe: Quality.

Mr Munaile: Years ago, Zambia produced school boy internationals who played for the national soccer team. Today, it is not possible to produce such sportsmen because the standards of sport in our schools both at basic and high school level are no longer the same. I think you need to do more in that direction if you have to completely do what all of us expect of you.

In conclusion, you will be doing…

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member should address the Chair.

Mr Munaile: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Chairperson. You will do a big favour for the people of Malole in Mungwi District if you considered giving them a boarding high school in 2010. There are two secondary schools, namely, Mungwi and Malole, but we do not have one for girls and it has become pretty difficult for the parents in the constituency to take their children especially the girl-child to school. Therefore, as you put together the 2010 budget, please, think of the people of Malole constituency.

Once again, I want to commend you and your staff for a job well done. Please, keep it up.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for allowing me to speak.

I would like also to commend the hon. Minister and I recognise that the hon. Minister has a rich human resource base in the Ministry of Education. You said a lot of things and I would not like to repeat but I just want to pick out a few issues that I want to contribute to. One is the bursary scheme. Considering the situation now, we have seen a lot of people loose jobs and I am sure most of the students and pupils will be unable to pay for their school fees. I urge the hon. Minister to look at introducing bursary schemes for such pupils and students. The information of how to access the bursary should be made open and simpler so that we can be able to achieve access, retention and progression as you stated in your statement. If possible, let it be decentralised because the people who really need this bursary scheme in the rural areas are in villages. It is very difficult for them to access this bursary scheme.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister should have also told us how many secondary schools will be built. There was a time when you were upgrading basic schools, but now you have stopped that good exercise. I want to urge the hon. Minister that they should upgrade these schools even better to the level where they will even get to have laboratories. I am one person who does not agree in the use of trolleys as laboratories. I am sure we can do better.

On the issue of university education, it is good that you have liberalised the education sector right up to the highest level of education. This has made it possible for a lot of universities to be created, but I think there should be a lot of monitoring and regulation because some of the places though they are called universities, they are not up to that standard. University education is superior to other forms of forms of education, therefore, even the infrastructure where the students are going should be superior. I commend you for upgrading colleges to the status of university colleges. This is as it should be.

Madam Chairperson, the situation regarding Mwekera College came to my attention when I went to the Copperbelt. I am glad the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has come back to the House. The conflict between the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources over this college is not helping Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: At the moment, the college is offering certificates. I am sure you will all bear me witness that when jobs are advertised, nobody talks about certificates. Why should we continue with the status quo? We have a University on the Copperbelt which is the Copperbelt University. I am sure in the same manner Nkurumah and COSECO have been turned into University Colleges, this one could also made into a University College affiliated to the Copperbelt University. We could see students get degrees in forestry. This is an area where students can attain skills and improve the economy of the country.

Madam Chairperson, the two hon. Ministers should sit together and chat the way forward. It is not a question of owning what. It is a question of having something that benefits Zambians. Sort out your problems. We want that college to be a University College as we do not even have that many universities in the country.

Lastly, you talked about the qualification framework. I am disappointed that each year, the hon. Minister talks about putting this in place. Next time you come, we want to hear that it is in place. When I was in the Ministry of Education many years ago, we were talking about the qualification framework as we are doing today. I think we should put it in place as quickly as possible.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, if I was asked a question about who my best hon. Minister in this Government was, …

Hon. Member: Hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: … I would, without hesitation, say the hon. Minister of Education.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: I could not ask for a better Minister, but a one who responds to our demands.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: When we complain about the pupil/teacher ratio, he responds positively and addresses the problem. I could not ask for a better hon. Minister than him.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda: When we talk about infrastructure development, …

Mr Mwila: Hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: … I can safely say that development is taking place in each and every constituency.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: This is what we want. I cannot ask for a better Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: We have been complaining about the desk/pupil ratio, this hon. Minister has answered our demand. I cannot ask for a better Minister.
Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Is it poem?

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: We have been complaining of poor educational standards in this country because of lack of education …

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair has not noted anything unprocedural.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: Sorry Madam. I wanted to raise a point of order on a matter of procedure.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Masebo: Madam Chairperson, is this learned lawyer in order to give us a poem instead of debating?

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: The hon. Member is concerned with the manner of delivery of the speech by Hon. Chifumu Kingdom Banda, …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Apart from the repetition that is coming, the tone of the voice is acceptable. However, repetition is not allowed. Therefore, “I would not ask for better Minister” may now be over.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Fortunately, this Government has already given me a better Minister.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Madam Chairperson, we have been complaining about lack of reading materials in our schools. If you look at the Yellow Book, this problem has been addressed. That is what we want.

Madam Chairperson, we have been complaining about a girls’ technical high schools. A step in the right direction has been started by this hon. Minister. My appeal is that the hon. Minister should look at my constituency with favour because we also want to have …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 18th March, 2009.