- Home
- About Parliament
- Members
- Committees
- Publications
Debates- Wednesday, 18th March, 2009
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 18th March, 2009
The House met at 1430 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
________
ANNOUNCEMENTS
WORKSHOP ON THE EFFECTIVE MANAGEMENT OF PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE MEETINGS
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, there will be a workshop on the Effecting Management of Parliamentary Committee Meetings.
The workshop will be conducted by the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) for Chairpersons of all National Assembly Sessional Committees. The workshop will be held on Saturday, 21st and Sunday, 22nd March, 2009 at Cresta Golf View Hotel, starting at 0830 hours.
Chairpersons of all Sessional Committees are requested to attend.
The Deputy Speaker will chair this workshop.
WORKSHOP ON THE OPERATIONS OF CONSTITUENCY OFFICES
Secondly, there will be a workshop for all hon. Members of Parliament on Monday, 23rd March, 2009 in the Auditorium here at Parliament Buildings. The workshop will be held to enlighten all hon. Members on the operations of Constituency Offices, the roles of their professional staff and the hon. Members of Parliament themselves in order to make the offices operate effectively.
The workshop will commence at 0830 hours. One of the presiding officers will chair the workshop. All hon. Members are expected to attend these important workshops.
I thank you.
__________
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
REDESIGNING AND EXPANDING ROADS IN LUSAKA
196. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) what plans the ministry had to assist the Lusaka City Council redesign and expand road infrastructure whose carriage capacity had been exceeded by the increasing volume of motor vehicles;
(b) when the plans and designs at (a) above would be implemented or effected;
(c) what urgent plans were there to address the continuous and serious traffic congestion at the junction of Lumumba and Mumbwa roads in Lusaka; and
(d) when the plans at (c) would be put into effect.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musosha): Mr Speaker, my ministry has plans to assist not only the Lusaka City Council but also all local authorities to redesign and expand road infrastructure, whose carriage capacity has been exceeded by the ever increasing volume of motor vehicles.
Mr Speaker, in March, 2007, my ministry, on behalf of the Government, signed an agreement with the Government of Japan for the preparation of a Comprehensive Urban Development Master Plan for the greater City of Lusaka. This plan has taken into account a number of development programmes such as public transportation. The plan has proposed the construction of inner and outer ring roads around the Central Business District (CBD) aimed at diverting traffic, especially from the south going either to the eastern or northern part of the city instead of passing through the CBD.
Mr Speaker, through this plan, the ministry implemented other intervention measures which include the expansion of the Great East Road and the Great North Road between 2002 and 2004 with assistance from the Japanese Government. The ministry has also encouraged the Lusaka City Council to prepare documents for some roads which could carry the traffic that contributes to congestion.
Sir, with regard to part (a) of the question, the Government has already taken steps to ensure that the traffic congestion is addressed through interventions that have been implemented so far. Using the Comprehensive Urban Development Master Plan, the Government has already applied to the Government of Japan for the construction of the first phase of the inner ring road.
Mr Speaker, the first schedule on the construction of inner ring roads is aimed at addressing the problem of traffic congestion which covers part of Mumbwa Road. The plan proposes to divert traffic from Mumbwa Road going south through Kanyama and Chibolya compounds, avoiding the referred to junction. Further, there are plans to open up the junction of Lumumba/Kalambo Road, leading into Lumumba Road to join Mumbwa Road after the entrance to Lumumba Bus Station. These plans are already in place. The Government and the Lusaka City Council have already pre-fabricated box culverts for this purpose. The National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) will soon advertise the works for paving Lumumba Road to connect into Mumbwa Road.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, is the ministry, in its planning, not considering building tunnels under the city and even over passes where one can drive above the city.
Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, like I have said, for the time being, we are considering doing what I have just stated to this House.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, is it the wish of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to turn some lawns into parking space?
Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, there has never been a time when this Government has allowed anybody to park a vehicle in the said places.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, the city centre is congested because there is no parking space. Is this Government considering constructing parking spaces around the city?
Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, this is in our future plans.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, from the city centre, the roads leading to the north, east and south are dual carriage ways. Why is the road leading to the west not a dual carriage way?
Laughter
Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, we will see what we can do about this in the future.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister said that parking space would be created whenever possible. I would like to find out from him what is going to be done in the meantime because people have nowhere to park their vehicles.
Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, the lack of parking space is not by design. Firstly, the plans that we make are determined by the availability of money. Secondly, as people buy vehicles, parking space becomes inadequate. We cannot stop people from buying vehicles.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Beene (Itezhi-Tezhi): Mr Speaker, one of the contributing factors to the traffic congestion in Lusaka is the vending along the roads. What permanent solution does this Government have to ensure that vending is done in the right places?
Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, there is the new Soweto Market which is about to be opened. When that market is opened, it will accommodate many marketeers. Soon after this, no one will be allowed to vend in the streets.
DAYLIGHT ROBBERIES IN LUSAKA
197. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(a) whether the Government was aware of the daylight robberies taking place in some townships and compounds of Lusaka; and
(b) what measures had been taken to curb these criminal activities.
The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government is fully aware of the daylight robberies taking place in some townships and compounds in Lusaka.
Mr Speaker, both day and night patrols have been intensified in all townships and compounds that are experiencing daylight robberies. These operations involve both foot and vehicle patrols. The exercise has been extended to all townships and compounds as a pro-active measure.
Furthermore, the police are sensitising members of these communities on the need to be on the lookout for criminal activities in their neighbourhood and also the need to report all suspicious activities and characters to the police.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, now that crime has reached unprecedented levels in the capital city, Lusaka and on the Copperbelt, is the Government considering the most effective way of curbing crime, which is cordoning all compounds and searching for arms until these criminals are rooted out.
Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, all the efforts are being made to ensure that we curb crime. Everyone is aware that, recently, six criminals were gunned down.
Laughter
Mr Bonshe: In the process, we lost one police officer. We are not proud of that fact. However, such casualties are expected when there is an exchange of fire. The criminals, however, may not deserve as much mercy as the police officer who died in the execution of his duties.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, other measures such as searching for arms in homes will be considered later. In the meantime, an amnesty has been extended where someone who surrenders a gun will be given K500,000. We have increased this amount from K300,000. We hope that the measure will work.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, has the ministry and the police command considered motivating the officers and ensuring their safety? Contrary to the suggestion that crime in Lusaka is on the increase, it has actually decreased. However, the officers who fight crime still risk losing their lives. Are we considering buying them bullet proof vests?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, we have placed an order for bullet proof vests. However, we will continue to look into issues of other incentives and conditions of service.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how far the ministry has gone in sensitising the people in urban and rural areas, especially those in border areas, on the importance of surrendering illegal firearms to the police.
Mr Speaker: The hon. Members should listen when answers are being given. I believe that question has already been answered.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, most of the crimes that have been reported are a syndicate between the criminals and the people from the armed forces and the police. Do you not think that it is as a result of paying the police and army officers low salaries that they are involved in these criminal activities? What is this Government doing about this?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we must ensure that bad elements are rooted out of the Police Force. However, if the hon. Member has some specific evidence, he can help us track down people who are making a bad name of the Zambia Police Force.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I would like his Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to tell me the rationale behind arriving at the figure of K500,000 as an incentive for rewarding those who surrender dangerous weapons considering that the yield, after the crime has been committed, is far higher than the amount offered by the Government.
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have been reviewing the amount which is offered for surrender of firearms. It used to be K200,000, but now it is K500,000. The amount is reviewed constantly. Of course, if a criminal is caught, the consequences are severe and sentences are quite stiff, especially for armed robbery. The House may be aware that the maximum sentence which applies for this offence is death. Therefore, there is no incentive for committing crime.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police has been doing a commendable job through the Flying Squad in relation to fighting crime. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs considering increasing the number of officers in the Flying Squad this year?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the strength of the Police Force and our response to various crimes depend on each particular situation. We review the situations, and of course where there is a need to increase the number of officers in the Flying Squad, that is done.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when he last visited the compounds where crime is high and to ascertain the security in these compounds.
Laughter
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I was appointed Vice-President not long ago.
Laughter
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I have been visiting such places quite often.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Laughter
_____
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
VOTE 80 − (Ministry of Education – K2,777,571,479,070).
(Consideration resumed)
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, I whole heartedly support the Vote for the Ministry of Education for the reason that scarce resources have been allocated to the areas of need as per Yellow Book. I note with satisfaction that the allocation of funds for the procurement of laboratory equipment and laboratory chemicals is aimed at ensuring that the teaching of science subjects in our country improves. This has been the cry of all hon. Members and sensible Zambians, and the hon. Minister of Education and his staff have remained focused.
Madam Chairperson, the reason for supporting this Vote is that attention has been given to the procurement of textbooks as well as teaching and learning materials. Lack of teaching materials has been one of the factors that have led to the deterioration in education standards in the country. Therefore, this is a welcome development and a development in the right direction. I also note with satisfaction that some money has been channeled towards the retention of rural headteachers. These are experienced people. Therefore, it makes good sense to retain their services.
Madam Chairperson, missions which are run by church organisations have also been remembered lest people are misled that tuition offered by missions is funded exclusively by missions. This notion must be dispelled …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … because these are grant-aided institutions.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B Banda, SC.: Therefore, I am happy to note that the allocation of K4.9 billion has come in handy and this amount has remained constant notwithstanding the fact that the financial situation has turned for worse.
However, by way of ending, I would like to advise the ministry to continue going out into the field to ensure that the construction projects which have been embarked upon in virtually every constituency are concluded within the prescribed time. I note that in my constituency, there is a school where the contractor has delayed in completing the project for unexplained reasons that this contractor does not pay the workers. This same contractor has contracts in Lundazi Parliamentary Constituency too where he has, again, failed to pay his workers, resulting in the workers withholding their labour.
On a happy note, I had discussions with the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) as well as the Permanent Sectary and I was assured that remedial action will be taken. This is the way public servants ought to work.
While thanking the hon. Minister for the good job, I would also like to extend this to the members of staff because without focused members of staff, the hon. Minister cannot achieve what he is being praised for.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Education will wind up debate, bearing in mind that he gave a very comprehensive and elaborate statement. He may be very brief to thank hon. Members.
Laughter
The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Chairperson, indeed, I will be very brief.
Madam, I would like to thank all hon. Members of this House for the overwhelming support for my ministry. As a ministry, we are very anxious that the National Budget be approved as soon as possible so that we can get on with the work of providing education opportunities to all children wherever they may be countrywide.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Vote 80/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/3 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/4 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/05 – (Ministry of Education – Teacher Education and Specialised Service Directorate – K6,328,728,925).
Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 02 – Administration of TESS(3) – K342,039,662, what is activity TESS(3)?
Dr Scott: And why is the allocation high?
The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, TESS stands for Teacher Education and Specialised Services. It is a programme that deals with the education of teachers.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Vote 80/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/08 – (Ministry of Education – Regional Headquarters – Lusaka Province – K4,517,202,262).
Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on the Department Total – K4,517,202,262 which is basically half the allocation for last year. Could the hon. Minister tell us why this is so?
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, as I indicated in my policy statement yesterday, much of the activities such as workshops and seminars that are related to administration have been scaled down to give more attention to the core activities such as infrastructure development.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Dr Machungwa: Hear, hear!
Vote 80/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/13 – (Ministry of Education – Basic Schools – Copperbelt Province – K114,878,212,231).
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page Programme 1 – Personal Emoluments – (PRP) and all the programmes that follow from pages 784 to 787. There is a reduction in the amount of salaries for all teachers and support groups. My question is, does it mean that the teachers are going to have a salary reduction or there will be no salary increment for teachers since the allocations on all the programmes on personal emoluments dealing with salaries have been reduced?
Mr Sinyinda: Madam Chairperson, as you are aware, the Copperbelt Province is an urban area and it may not receive as many teachers this year as the schools in rural areas.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Grants to Basic Schools (1) – K849,188,598. Again, Unit 4, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Grants to Basic Schools (7) – K840,129,217, again, Unit 5, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Grants to Basic Schools (9) – K840,129,217. To me this is like a repetition.
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, there is no repetition, grants to basic schools are a continuous annual activity, and as we indicated, that grant remains our commitment even this year.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member can see that these programmes are under different districts. If you go to page 784, there is Masaiti. Then, under Unit 2, there is Mpongwe and then Luanshya and they all have grants.
Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I will just talk about Masaiti. If you go to Unit 1, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Grants to Basic Schools (1) – K849,183,598, there is another Programme 7 – Grants to Basic Schools …
The Chairperson: Which the Chair cannot see. Are you on page 784? Hon. Member, lead us to where you are referring to by reading line by line quickly.
Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, Unit 1, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Grants to Basic Schools (1) – K849,183,598 …
The Chairperson: What follows next below that?
Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, below that is Unit 2, Programme 1 – Personal Emoluments – (PRP).
The Chairperson: No! There is Programme Total after grants.
Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, the third is another Programme 7.
The Chairperson: No! Follow me so that we move quickly.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order! We are having a chat.
Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I am asking why the ministry did not combine the two.
The Chairperson: No! Can you follow what I am saying? Can you put your hand on where it reads Unit 1, Masaiti District, Programme 7 Equity – (PRP), Activity 01 – Grants to Basic Schools (1) – K849,183,598. What is the next thing after that?
Mr D. Mwila: There is another Programme 7.
The Chairperson: No! Hon. Mwila, read the next line right there. If you follow my lead, you will see that there is another district just below. There is Mpongwe and when you go further down, there is Luanshya. That is what I wanted us to see. Therefore, we move on.
Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, in answering, the hon. Minister thinks we are not thinking.
Interruptions
Mr Kambwili: I am back to my question.
The Chairperson: Order! What did you say?
Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I said hon. Minister thinks we are not thinking because for us to ask questions, we need proper clarification. All the salary scales for teachers have been reduced. Last year, for Masaiti District, we budgeted for K4,922,203,642, but this year, it has been reduced. Under Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 06 – Salaries – Teaching Service – K3,937,762,913, what has this to do with the recruitment of teachers? Where have the teachers gone to for the figures to reduce drastically. Have they died?
Interruptions
The Chairperson: We are in Committee to discuss and so just moderate your voice.
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the lower figures for Personal Emoluments on the Copperbelt is because other emoluments have declined and hence the reduction.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr Kambwili: My question was on salaries and this does not include other emoluments. Could the hon. Minister answer the question? Salaries have been reduced which are not emoluments.
Interruptions
Mr Sinyinda: Madam Chairperson, I do not seethe hon. Member’s problem. What I said was that last year, we budgeted for the recruitment of teachers on the Copperbelt, but this year, we have not budgeted for it because there are enough teachers.
The Chairperson: The question is, why has the amount for salaries for teachers been reduced. Do we expect few teachers?
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, the reduction is on account of several factors. The first one has been covered by the reply provided by the hon. Minister of Education which is the component which has to do with other emoluments. This has reduced because some of the allowances which were paid last year are no longer applicable.
The normal way of budgeting for salaries is that we sit down with the accountant of the province, take note of the teacher establishment and provide for the figure.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I am still not satisfied. This applies to all the districts on the Copperbelt. Give us …
Interruptions
Mr Kambwili: … a better explanation or accept that you have made a mistake by under budgeting.
Dr Scott: Or there were ghost workers.
Mr Kambwili: In all the districts, Luanshya, Lufwanyama and Kitwe, the figures have been reduced by a big margin. For instance Under Unit 3 – Luanshya District, Programme 1, Activity 06 – Salaries – Teaching Service, last year you budgeted for K5,935,599,234 but this year it is K4,748,479,387, under Unit 2, Mpongwe District, Programme 1, Activity 06, last year it was K3,093,234,712 and this year it is K2,474,587,770. Why is this so? Just accept that you made a mistake, hon. Minister, rather than giving fake statements.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order! Can the hon. Member withdraw the term ‘fake’.
Mr Kambwili: Rather than giving misleading statements.
The Chairperson: Did you withdraw the word?
Mr Kambwili: Yes, I did.
The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, answer the request by the hon. Member, please.
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, there is no problem with regard to the figures that are reflected here because salaries for teachers are tied to the establishment that exists. As the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has indicated, clearly, this figure which is here is in line with the establishment in terms of staffing and there is no problem with regard to the alignment between the salaries which are reflected in the budget and the establishment in terms of the number of teachers in our respective districts on the Copperbelt.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I just want to say that we are not misleading anyone; we are saying the truth. I repeat that salaries are based on the actual establishment. It just happened that in 2009 these figures are based on the field positions and in 2008, the budget included amounts for vacant positions. That is the explanation, and there is no under budgeting because all the teachers will be paid their salaries without any problems.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
The Chairperson: The Chair gets it that the establishment on the Copperbelt and the actual staffing levels are different. Last year, within the establishment, more money was given. This year, the staffing levels have gone down. The numbers of the actual teachers are not the same and so basically there is a reduction in the number of the staff. Is that what the Government is saying?
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: It is understood, can we move on.
Interruptions
Mr Kambwili: We are here to approve the budget and not rubber stamp it.
The Chairperson: Order! You are not here to make rulings. Nobody has given you the Floor, so sit down, Hon. Kambwili.
Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, can the hon. Minister just confirm that the correct position is that the staff establishment for teachers on the Copperbelt has reduced. I think that would satisfy most of the hon. Members.
Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I indicated that in the 2008 Budget, which is a reference point of comparison the hon. Member is making, the budget included vacant positions …
Hon. Members: Yes …
Dr Musokotwane: … that were budgeted for. This year, the budget only includes field positions. That is why the allocations have reduced.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
The Chairperson: Understood.
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson, the dimension brought in now seems to be confusing.
Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.
Mr Muntanga: All along the budget has been activity based. Does this mean, therefore, that the money allocated was not based on the establishment that we were given last year and that something now is revealing the fact that there were more people? Is that the correct position?
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I do not think there is any confusion or misleading. What we have done here is to relate the funding in terms of remuneration of our teachers to the actual heads in terms of teachers who are available; the staffing in our schools. This is a combing process.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, I am wondering whether the figures in last year’s Budget were as a result of recruitment expenses and whether the figures were forecasted on the expected number of …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
Ms Masiye: … teachers to be recruited. This year, the forecast on the number of teachers to be recruited is less than what was budgeted for, and hence the reduction. With those two reasons, could there be an explanation for the reduction because it does not make sense that you already had staff, you recruited more staff and then the figures go down.
Thank you, Mum.
Hon. Opposition Members: There is no mum in here.
Laughter
The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Education. Now I am rich with two children.
Laughter
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I think probably the confusion here has to do with the slight reduction …
Mr Kambwili: It is not slight.
Professor Lungwangwa: … in the figures.
Mr Kambwili: It is not slight.
Professor Lungwangwa: It is a slight reduction, Madam Chair.
Interruptions
Professor Lungwangwa: What we have in here is a reflection of the staffing levels on the Copperbelt and the figures that are indicated here in terms of the payment of salaries are commensurate with the staffing as it is obtaining on the Copperbelt.
Interruptions
Professor Lungwangwa: Yes.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have to combine the answers that have been given. In the original answer the hon. Deputy Minister talked about recruitment which was probably looked at as the planning was being done. He further said now that they have recruited, they are unlikely to receive many teachers. Therefore, in anticipation, we can wait for the report on the performance of last year’s Budget to see whether this money was used or not.
Mr Kambwili: I just want to ask one question.
The Chairperson: Yes, there are others who also wish to ask.
Mr Kambwili interjected.
The Chairperson: Order! You cannot argue in that manner.
Laughter
Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Madam Chairperson, if the staffing levels on the Copperbelt have reduced, why are we not recruiting?
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the recruitment exercise covers all the provinces. The funding for the recruitment for this year on the Copperbelt and other provinces is at the headquarters and it will be covered from the allocation for the headquarters. What we have here are the staffing levels as they obtain in the province. I hope that is clear.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Vote 80/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/22 ─ (Ministry of Education ─ High Schools ─ Northern Province ─ K39,195,517,339).
Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Chairperson, I would like to refer to page 828 and particularly Programme 11 …
The Chairperson: We have already passed page 828.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Hon. Members should be ready with their questions and not ask retrospectively.
Vote 80/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Hon. Members will reduce their voices, as the Chair also hears the interruptions and gets distracted.
Vote 80/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/30 ─ (Ministry of Education ─ High Schools ─ Eastern Province ─ K39,206,309,845).
Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 1 ─ Salaries Division I ─ K10,495,764,387. I note an enormous increase in the allocation to Salaries Division I of more than 100 per cent coupled, t the same time, with a big and precipitous cutting of wages. Does this mean we are laying off junior officers and increasing the number of senior staff? It seems very inequitable.
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, it is not inequitable. It is a reflection of the staffing that is currently in place.
I thank you, Madam.
The Chairperson: The question is that K39,206,309,845 stand part of the Estimates.
Dr Scott stood up.
The Chairperson: You took a little too long. Do not discuss in the middle of the question being put. Clarifications are supposed to be raised before we move on. However, if there is a need, you may ask your question.
Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I do not doubt, for one second, that it is a reflection of the staffing, but I wanted to know how the structure of staffing had changed and what the rationale was.
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I am not quite sure whether what the hon. Member wants to know is in any way a significant problem reflected in the figures. The figures we have here in terms of wages are a reflection of the staff who are within this category. Equally, the figures that are in the other categories are also a reflection of the number of staff who are there.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, can the hon. Minister provide this House with information on what the staff establishment is so as to quantify and correct these figures.
Laughter
The Chairperson: I think this information has been distributed to hon. Members.
Mr Muntanga: Yes!
Vote 80/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/31 – (Ministry of Education – Teacher Education – Eastern Province – K3,955,572,209).
Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 11, Activity 04 – Procurement of Laboratory Chemicals (31) – K101,233,926. I have seen that there has been a drastic increase from K7,475,320 to K101,233,926 in that category. Could the hon. Minister just clarify whether there will be any major bulk procurement changes.
Mr Sinyinda: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 11, Activity 04 – Procurement of Laboratory Equipment (31) – K101,233,926. It is true that is one of our priorities. We would like to procure as many laboratory chemicals as possible.
I thank you, Madam.
Vote 80/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/33 - (Ministry of Education – Basic Schools – Luapula Province – K127,139,402,984).
Dr Kalumba: Madam Chairperson, I stand at the mercy of the Chair because I think the Chair did not see me while I was standing on the Ministry of Education – Eastern Province - Headquarters. I think you have already gone beyond the page I have problems with, and I apologise for this.
The Chairperson: Indeed, the apology is taken, and we move on. We are not going back.
Ms Lundwe: You were still at the laptop.
Vote 80/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 80/34 – (Ministry of Education – High Schools – Luapula Province – K23,980,305,908).
Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, Programme 02, Activity 04 – Human Resource Management – K-, and Activity 05 – Human Resource Development (3) – K 554,566,922. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there is no allocation for Human Resource Management even though the Human Resource Development will be going on.
Mr Sinyinda: Madam Chairperson, Programme 02, Activity 04 – Human Resource Management – K- and Activity 05 – Human Resource Development (3) – K 554,566,922. As my hon. Minister stated in his speech yesterday, priority now goes to infrastructure development instead of seminars because this was going to go into activities such as seminars.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Chongo: Madam Chairperson, I think the hon. Minister has not clarified the issue on Activity 05 – Human Resource Development – K 554,566,922. This development goes with training. Surely, the people who train have to do the management aspect of the job. How do you develop training when there is no allocation for the management of teachers?
Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, Programme 02, Activity 04 – Human Resource Management – K- and Activity 05 – Human Resource Development (3) – K 554,566,922. As the hon. Member can see, Human Resource Development is reflected in Activity 04 and Activity 05. Activity 05 has some allocation for that.
I thank you, Madam.
Vote 80/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 80/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
VOTE 87 – (Anti-Corruption Commission – K28,040,345,004).
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Chairperson, I rise to present the estimates of expenditure for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) for 2009.
The impact of corruption on national development is always negative. My Government recognises this as well as the fact that the fight against corruption requires collective effort and above all, political will and commitment.
Madam Chairperson, the ACC is, by law, mandated to spearhead the prevention, investigation and prosecution of corruption in Zambia. As stated by His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, in his address at the official opening of this session of Parliament, the ACC will remain the main body to fight corruption in our country. In so doing, my Government will give the ACC the full support it deserves and will ensure that both the legal and institutional framework of the ACC is strengthened in order to make the fight against corruption more effective and the ACC more efficient in its operations.
On Monday, my Government approved the National Anti-Corruption Policy.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Through the …
Hon. Opposition Member: When was that?
The Vice-President and Minister and Justice: … National Anti-Corruption Policy, concerted institutional, societal, situational and legal interventions which reduce opportunities for corruption will be developed and harmonised. Among other measures, the institutionalisation of the prevention of corruption in ministries, departments and agencies through integrity initiatives will be enhanced.
My Government is committed to dealing with the scourge head on and will continue to embrace the principle of zero tolerance to corruption which we pronounced in 2002 with renewed vigour. All well meaning Zambians must commend and support these initiatives to eliminate corruption in our various spheres of life.
Madam Chairperson, the operations of the Anti-Corruption Commission for which these Estimates are presented are in line with the three statutory functions, namely investigations and prosecutions, corruption prevention and community education.
The ACC, on 15th January, 2009 launched a new Five-Year Strategic Plan for the period 2009 to 2013. The implementation of this strategic plan has started. A new organisational structure increasing the establishment of the ACC from 361 to 381 positions has been approved and awaits Treasury authorisation. This increase in the staff establishment is intended to decentralise the operations of the ACC in the regions where it operates currently with minimum staff levels.
My Government will also work to improve the long standing problem of staff retention in the ACC. Major programmes for this year include corruption prevention interventions, public awareness, legislative review since the National Anti-Corruption Policy has been approved, institutional liaison, investigations and prosecutions and strengthening the organisational framework of the ACC.
Madam Chairperson, the budget allocation for the ACC this year is K28,040,345,004. This is the most appropriate allocation we can make under the prevailing economic climate. Therefore, I urge this august House to support the 2009 Budget for the Anti-Corruption Commission.
I thank you, Madam.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
I support the Vote for the Anti-Corruption Commission in general terms. I would like, however, to indicate that as Member of Parliament for Namwala Constituency, I am exceedingly disappointed with the operations of the Task Force and the Anti-Corruption Commission with yet another corruption investigating wing called the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) which will be discussed later. This is because I have been to all these commissions and made very important enquiries associated with the operations of the members of the Civil Service in my constituency with very specific information in the hope that we can curb criminality and crime in Namwala. I have also gone to the Anti-Corruption Commission Headquarters to give information regarding specific individuals associated with corruptly obtaining money from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Alas, this is the third year and the Anti-Corruption Commission has only come back to me with a small note which says, “Honourable, we are still on the matter.” I have been waiting for their action for three years, but here we are trying to prepare budgets for this organisation which to me, as far as its operations are concerned, is so slow that it is as good as moribund.
Madam Chairperson, because of my levels of disappointment and what I have felt are very serious concerns, I have decided to bring to the attention of the House levels of even more corruption which, in my opinion, should have been long dealt with by the Anti-Corruption Commission.
I have also wondered whether the ACC is not a tool for the leadership to target certain individuals. Otherwise, it should have been more proactive in detecting crime given the huge amounts of money that this House allocates to it.
Madam Chairperson, I have in mind what goes on at the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services. It was our intention, from this side, to deal with this matter while the Vote on Information and Broadcasting Services was being discussed. However, when we saw that another cadre was involved at the Ministry of Home Affairs, and we did not go the way that we should have gone, we decided to deal with it in this Vote given that it is pure corruption.
Madam Chairperson, you will recall that from time to time, on the Floor of this August House, hon. Members have bitterly complained to the Executive regarding its failure to control the current crop of civil servants who by a process of magic like ada-ca-dabra, …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … have acquired unlimited wealth on a meagre civil servant’s salary.
The Chairperson: Order! What is the meaning of ada-ca-dabra?
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: It is a magic wand.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: We have seen references to a lot of infrastructure and pointed out some of the investments from ill-gotten wealth. I have in case three sets and I am glad the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services is here. Three cases of tenders which the hon. Minister made mention of in this House.
The first one is for the delivery and supply of sixteen video van equipment.
Mr Speaker, the closing date for the bids for the tender to supply and deliver sixteen video van equipment …
The Chairperson: Madam Chairperson.
Major Chizhyuka: … was 4th July, 2008. The Permanent Secretary was not happy because the preferred supplier had not submitted the bid by the closing date. To ensure that his preferred company participated, he extended the period of submission for that bid to 18th July, 2008. I have an addendum to lay on the Table.
The team of technical experts, chaired by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Company Secretary, evaluated the bid and recommended that Broadcom be awarded the contract following submissions by technicians by the user department. However, others had, on many occasions, supplied wrong or domestic equipment when what was required was professional equipment. The Permanent Secretary was not happy with the valuation report and the recommendation by the Technical Evaluation Committee and directed the Purchase and Supplies Officer to amend the report in favour of Agrivisual, a United Kingdom (UK) based company, whose local representative is a company called Digicom Media Consultancy, owned by serving and former members of staff in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services ...
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, shame!
Major Chizhyuka: … and one member of staff from the Ministry of Health.
Madam Chairperson, the complaint from the experts in the user department who were members of the evaluation team was that Agrivisual, through Digicom Media Consultancy was previously awarded a similar contract to supply audio-visual equipment which included semi-professional video cameras and professional projectors to districts.
The Chairperson: Order! I think hon. Members of the Committee of Supply should know that we are basically discussing policy of the specific ministries and departments of the Government.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
The Chairperson: If there are issues that are so specific and border on criminality, like the hon. Member said, this may not be the institution to deal with that. Where allegations are being made, some people may not personally sit here to defend themselves. Can I ask the hon. Member to draw back into policy and may deal with those matters if he really wants a remedy?
Major Chizhyuka may continue, please.
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I was raising examples of cases of corruption. You will recall that I started by saying that I was not happy with the department after having reported to their offices so that they could deal with matters for which this House provides money. I am now merely giving examples of areas …
The Chairperson: Order! While I appreciate the need for an example, it is how far the details are going that we are literally leaving the general policy. You may mention that these things have gone wrong. However, the details are for other wings of Government to deal with. Let us not mislead ourselves. You have given the example. You may now give your own understanding of the policy and how you want it to move.
You may continue, please.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: There are too many hon. Members debating, and probably, misleading the Major.
Leave him alone, please.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: I have sets of three contracts which, in the light of the guidance from the Chair, I would like to lay on the Table to be investigated and brought to this House through the relevant Committees, as I can see the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting is shaking his hands and I wonder whether he is part of the corruption.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order! Now you are being provocative to an innocent person who can also react in the way he wants. It is up to the Chair to ask him to sit properly if he is sitting on his head.
You will continue with your debate.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chair, these are important and profound matters and we would like them investigated. There must be value for the money that we approved for the ACC as we see the levels of corruption going on.
Madam Chairperson, the Task Force on Corruption was created to investigate corruption. As you know, we are always laying things on the Table. I have a memorandum in my hands. I want to read Page 3, Paragraph 25, and I quote:
“The successful prosecution of these cases depends to a large extent on the integrity and competence of the Magistrate assigned to handle the cases. Whilst the Task Force has no direct influence over the assignment of Magistrates to individual cases, it will be beneficial to have a few of the best Magistrates designated to handle all the cases brought by the Task Force on Corruption ...
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, that particular document which is being read is a subject of the court proceedings in the High Court. Is the hon. Member in order to be referring to a document which is under adjudication by the High Court? Is it not subjudice?
Mr Matongo: He did not know.
The Chairperson: Order! Continue, your Honour, please.
Mr Matongo: How can we know that?
The Chairperson: Order! Stop those questions.
Laughter
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: These matters are public knowledge. The case of Aaron Chungu and others is before the High Court. This is the case in which he has sued the Task Force on Corruption. You know that it is before the court.
Is the hon. Member in order to refer to such a document?
The Chairperson: The point of order is very clear. In fact, the Chair was wondering which memorandum that was. Indeed, if reference is made to a document that refers to matters that are in court, that is not acceptable in this House. Let us remember that as we talk about wings of Government with a very special mandate like the Judiciary. We have to be extremely careful on how we do it.
Therefore, if that document is, indeed, what His Honour the Vice-President says it is, can the hon. Member put it aside and any reference made to it withdrawn.
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for your guidance.
However, just for your own information, this is a memorandum of understanding between the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, which is us, Task Force on Corruption, which is them …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … and the governments of Denmark, Ireland, Sweden and United Kingdom(UK), which is the others.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order! From what you have said, I still feel that, indeed, it sounds like the document which is a subject matter currently in the courts. I think that it may not be referred to. You may move on to another issue and withdraw every reference made to the same document.
Major Chizhyuka: It is quite clear that sensitivity is associated with corruption.
The Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
The Chairperson: The guidance is that you have to withdraw all reference you made to that document. The sensitivity may be there or not, but can you withdraw all reference made to the document. This is the procedure of the House. It is the manner of governance of this nation and we have to keep to our mandate.
Mr Kakoma whispered to Major Chizhyuka.
The Chairperson: The hon. Member may withdraw all reference made to the memorandum of understanding. Do not listen to those who will not stand with you like Mr Kakoma.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Withdraw and continue, please.
Major Chizhyuka: All these important documents which should have been laid on the Table, today, are hereby withdrawn.
Laughter
Mr Matongo: For other avenues.
Major Chizhyuka: They have been withdrawn for other avenues …
Mr Matongo: Tribunal.
Major Chizhyuka: … such as the tribunal.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: All I want to say is that the Anti-Corruption Commission must live up to the expectations of this House. We sit here and approve moneys, but the only ones who appear to be really fighting corruption are the private media.
Mr Kakoma: Correct!
Major Chizhyuka: Just think of any of the biggest corruption cases in the country. To the best of my memory, they have been brought to light by the media.
Mr Kakoma: You are right!
Major Chizhyuka: In fact, it makes a case for the private media because you all remember that if it had not been for The Washington Post and The New York Times, we would not have known about the Watergate Scandal regarding Richard Nixon? These are facts. We have had problems with the case involving the former President, Dr Chiluba …
The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member should be careful with those issues as well, as we come back from break.
Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
The Chairperson: When business was suspended, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year 1st January, 2009 to 31stDecember, 2009, was considering Head 87 – Anti-Corruption Commission and the hon. Member for Namwala was on the Floor.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Hon. Members, before I ask Major Chizhyuka to continue, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of five distinguished visitors who are members of the Parliamentary Committee on Presidential Affairs from the Parliament of Uganda. The names of the hon. Visitors are:
(a) Hon. Menhya Gerald Simone (Leader of the Delegation);
(b) Hon. Batime Rwakaikara Tom;
(c) Hon. Oburu Grace;
(d) Hon. Okelo-Okelo John Livingstone; and
(e) Mr Owili Geoffrey Mickey (Secretary to the Delegation).
Hon. Member: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: We welcome the hon. Visitors and we are happy to have them in our midst.
Thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: Now, it is time for Hon. Major Chizhyuka to continue his debate.
Hon. Members: Finally!
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to continue my debate. Looking at the one minute and thirty-seven seconds that I have left, all I can say is that it was William Shakespeare who once said that there is no fort so strong that money will not take. Therefore, money is the bedrock of corruption. I hope that the doctrine of separation of powers in our country and in this hard-won independence, shall, some day, in the process of reform, be a reality in order to open up this House to openly discuss these matters of corruption. I have seen that in the UK when the managers of all banking institutions get involved in corruption, they are brought to the UK Parliament to answer questions. That also happens in the United States of America, but here, there are a lot of points of order. There is this lacuna …
The Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … and that lacuna.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I support the Vote entirely and at the same time, I stand as a very disappointed hon. Member of Parliament for a simple reason. Last year, during the course of the debate on the same Vote, I made a passionate appeal that since the ACC was an institution that was receiving inadequate funding, it was would be prudent for the Government to allocate more funds to the institution so that it could carry out its work effectively.
Madam, I emphasised that there was also a tendency of delays in following up cases. Some of the cases reported to the ACC had been left unconcluded. I also made a plea that there was need for the ACC to protect the whistle blowers, but to my dismay, there has been no progress on any of the issues that were highlighted. This is a very sad development. We all know that the most known catalysts of corruption are lack of places in learning institutions, delayed payments in terms of allowances and terminal benefits to workers, quire processes in land acquisition, …
Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them.
Mr Chisala: … low salaries and wages to workers, just to mention a few. These are the major catalysts of corruption in any State. It seems that the debates in this House have been falling on deaf ears. Our colleagues who are supposed to spearhead this seem not to be helping us.
What do we need to do as a Government to do away with corruption in this country? It is important for us to avoid this bottleneck. In so doing, our fight against corruption will be easier. If we fail to address the issues I have just raised, the workload of the ACC shall never get reduced.
Madam Chairperson, I indicated last year that there was inadequate funding to the ACC. Therefore, it would be prudent for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to fund the ACC adequately so that they can go round the country and sensitise our people on the dangers of corruption.
Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!
Mr Chisala: Madam, that is when corruption will be reduced in this country. In this country, it is very difficult for our grandmothers and grandfathers to know that giving money to someone with a view to getting something from that particular person is a crime.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: I am making a passionate appeal to the Government to look into this issue seriously.
Madam Chairperson, I highlighted the issue of delayed cases which has not been followed up by our colleagues from the ACC. This tendency has gone beyond extremes. At one time, we had a case whereby a senior Government official was reported to have been involved in corrupt scandals at the district level. This was brought to the attention of the ACC but to my dismay, to date, nothing has happened. One would start wondering whether there is corruption within the ACC.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!
Mr Chisala: Is this the way we are going to carry out the works of the Government? Time has come for the ACC to change its behaviour if it wants to protect the Zambian people. This vice should come to an end.
Madam Chairperson, if it were an hon. Minister, a Permanent Secretary, an hon. Member of Parliament or a Director who was involved in corruption, that particular person was going to be brought to book. One then wonders why certain individuals are being protected.
Mr Kambwili: Ya, akambe!
Mr Chisala: I am a very disappointed person.
Madam, in conclusion, I would only say that it would be prudent for the ACC to improve its performance. It is in this vein that when I debated last year, I made a passionate appeal to the ACC based in Kasama to move the supervision of Chilubi to Mansa so that the officers in Mansa could be going to Chilubi to look into these cases seriously. Maybe they are more serious than our colleagues who are based in Kasama. Leading a noble community such as Chilubi, I would not condone corruption in such an area.
With these few words, I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very crucial Vote. From the outset, let me say that I support the Vote and I thank His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice for the Policy Statement that he made to this House.
Madam Chairperson, as you are personally aware, I rarely agree with one colleague in this House and that is Hon. Chizhyuka, with whom one time, I had a very serious blood battle between. However, today, I want to say that …
The Chairperson: Order! The Chair does not know, personally.
Laughter
Mr Lubinda: I thank you Madam Chairperson for that, but I think the Chairperson of the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services might know about this. I would like to say that irrespective of that background, today, I wish to adopt the debate of Hon. Major Chizhyuka as my very own …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: … from the start to the end, including all the documents that he withdrew.
The Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order! There are no documents to refer to because he withdrew all of them.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Therefore, the hon. Member may not mislead himself. You may continue without reference to any documents from Hon. Major Chizhyuka.
Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.
Madam Chairperson, I also wish to agree with my colleague, Hon. Chisala, on a number of issues that he raised. Let me say that it is very heartening to hear His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, say that finally, after more than three years, the National Anti-Corruption Policy was approved by Cabinet only last Monday. I would like to say, well done and thank you very much to His Honour the Vice-President. The ACC has been waiting for this policy for the last three years.
Madam Chairperson, I do, however, hope that the adoption of this policy will not be another rhetorical gesture that has befallen many policies in this country. I have in mind the Cultural Policy, which was adopted in 1999. To date, nothing has been implemented in that policy. I also have in mind the Decentralisation Policy which was adopted by this Government in 2002. To date, we are still grappling with its implementation. I hope that this very important National Anti-Corruption Policy will not fall in the same pitfall. I am hoping that this policy shall be used to also guide the Executive in the execution of their functions. It must not be a policy to just flag to others. I hope this policy will be used by our colleagues in the Executive so that it becomes a bible that they live by.
Madam Chairperson, I say this because any system is judged by the performance of those who are in positions of power. If we, the people gathered in this House, led exemplary lives, and no one questioned our integrity, chances are the people out there would be inspired to follow. If we, amongst ourselves, are the ones who appear to be black sheep, it will be very difficult for anyone to be convinced that the fight against corruption is a genuine fight. We ought to lead, but to lead by example. I, therefore, hope that this policy, which took a long time to develop, on which the tax payers spent a lot of money, and in which many stakeholders participated, shall be a document to guide all of us gathered in this House, and through us, the people who are running the institutions of Government.
Madam Chairperson, this brings me to the matter of support that this Government ought to give to the ACC. It is saddening to hear the Government, on one hand say that they support the ACC, and on the other, hear about what is happening at ACC, whereby some people, holding a person’s contract in their hand, tells them not to report for work. That is not fair. You cannot fire a person whose contract you just recently renewed. It is not right. It shows that the ACC is totally dependent on the wills and wishes of individuals in the Executive.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: This way, you will not inspire the people at the ACC to fight this scourge.
Madam Chairperson, we ought to remember that the ACC has specific targets. The first amongst their targets are gathered in this very House.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: If, therefore, we block them from checking what we are doing because we can chop their contracts at will, we are intimidating them. The moment they are intimidated, please, do not expect them to perform wonders when it comes to smaller people in the Government system.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: We ought to inspire them by allowing them to investigate us first.
Mr Kambwili: Kande!
Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, you advised my good friend, Hon. Chizhyuka not to be delayed by those who were helping him debate, I will also follow that advice and move on.
Madam Chairperson, I commend the statement by His Honour the Vice-President, when he said it is important for the ACC to decentralise. It is very important. I have spoken about this many times before. I have bemoaned the fact that at the ACC, there are only eleven intelligence officers for the whole country. I have also complained about the fact that there are 1.2 human beings as investigating officers per district in Zambia. This is obviously far too small a number to be able to curb this growing phenomenon of corruption.
When I heard His Honour the Vice-President say that ACC will decentralise, my heart leaped and I quickly went to the Yellow Book to see whether his statement corresponded with what the budget was telling me. I am afraid to say I will wait to see how the ACC will decentralise when their budget has been cut.
Madam Chairperson, to decentralise, you need personnel. However, according to the total allocation to emoluments, there is an increase of 0.079 per cent above what they got last year. This is even below the inflation, and yet this year, they also expect a salary increase to cushion them against inflation. His Honour the Vice-President says they are going to decentralise. Are they going to decentralise by sending the few people at the headquarters to Mongu, Senanga, Pemba and Namwala? Can His Honour, the Vice-President explain what he means by decentralisation? Last year, the ACC was allocated K31 billion. This year, they have been given K28 billion. Are we serious or is this lip service we are giving the ACC?
Madam Chairperson, I would like to move on to another matter. Last year, this country was honoured to have chaired the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Summit. At the time, Zambia was one of the leaders in the fight against corruption. We lost the opportunity to lead SADC in setting up the important SADC Anti-Corruption Secretariat. All the countries in SADC are at a loss because of not having that secretariat to co-ordinate the functions of ACCs in the SADC region. Now that we lost that opportunity, may I suggest to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to use the influence of his office to influence His Excellency, President Rupiah Bwezani Banda to convince his colleagues in SADC to set up that secretariat. We ought to be co-ordinated in the fight against corruption. That is the very reason this Government acceded to the SADC protocol against corruption. We will not implement that protocol unless we are co-ordinated as SADC region.
Madam Chairperson, this brings me to the very important United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC). I am thankful that it was acceded to, courtesy of the champions of the fight against corruption who sang all day and night to urge this Government to accede. However, accession is not enough.
I am, however, glad that His Honour the Vice-President is himself a learned hon. Minister of Justice, who knows that accession to international protocols is nothing if they are not domesticated. Can I implore this Government to ensure that by the end of this year, we domesticate the very important tenets of the UNCAC? The matters that we are grappling with in here, for instance, the idea of passing legislation with known individuals in mind, shall not happen once we domesticate the UNCAC. It is a criminal offence to do this. According to the UNCAC, it is an offence to reduce taxes using this House for the purpose of benefiting known individuals.
Mr Kambwili: Phone manufactures!
Mr Lubinda: I would like this Government to domesticate the UNCAC so that those principles are abided by this Government.
Madam Chairperson, the UNCAC also provides for asset declaration laws. Let us domesticate the UNCAC quickly so that we do not have people going to committees of Parliament and almost committing perjury by telling the committees that laws of declaration of assets do not exist anywhere in the world when they know very well that such laws exist even next door in Botswana, and yet some colleagues had the audacity to go to a committee of Parliament and misinform Parliament. I would like to call upon the Government to ensure that the UNCAC is domesticated so that we are not taken for a ride.
Madam, the other matter that my hon. Colleague, Hon. Major Chizhyuka, spoke about, which was also highlighted by my colleague Hon. Chisala is the slow response of the Anti-Corruption Commission to reports. I know that the Anti-Corruption Commission people are my friends, but I also want to join Hon. Major Chizhyuka and Hon. Chisala by bemoaning the fact that it is very disheartening and discouraging for whistle blowers when they report cases and nothing is done. If the agency that is employed to investigate corruption is quiet, it leaves the people with no other avenue, but this House.
Hon. Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, if institutions of Government do not react to the cries of the people, the people have the right to come and petition this very House.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Lubinda: We cannot run away from that responsibility because in any democracy, this House is the epitome. Therefore, matters that are not going to be received by courts of laws and matters that are going to be received by the Anti-Corruption Commission, Drug Enforcement Commission or by the Office of His Honour the Vice-President will have to find their way to this House.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: We have no choice but to agree to them because to throw them out will mean that the people have no other avenue. If you do not give people breathing space, they go out and make noise in wrong places.
Hon. opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: I want to urge His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to make sure he does not only support this but also obliges the people at the Anti-Corruption Commission to ensure that they react to the numerous reports that they have been receiving.
Madam Chairperson, as Chairperson for the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption, I would report to you that members of your network have sent numerous complaints and cases to the Anti-Corruption Commission and to my knowledge, we have not received any response.
My good friend and former Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon. Silvia Masebo, is also aware of the fact that after consulting with her on a matter concerning the illegal allocation of market plots, this case was presented to the Anti-Corruption Commission. This is more than a year and nothing has happened, and yet the people who are supposed to be the beneficiaries are in the cold. We politicians, our friends, girlfriends and boyfriends are the ones who are running markets now at the expense of the poor.
Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Obviously, that is not encouraging in a country where we have a perceived strong Anti-Corruption crusade. There is no other place than this House, save for His honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that can assist the Anti-Corruption Commission to prove their way. Currently, there is also a matter concerning market stalls at Soweto Market. For all I care, by the time that list is concluded, there will be wrong people running market stalls at Soweto Market. Again, it is because the Anti-Corruption Commission does not seem to be on top of things.
Madam Chairperson, let me end by appealing to His Honour the Vice-President …
Mr Kambwili: Go on! Go on!
Mr Lubinda: … that if there is any development that this Government wants to achieve, it ought to be supported by a very strong stand against corruption. If you ask around who the people who are building the mansions equivalent to K1 billion that we see today are, you would find that no one in this country can afford a mortgage of K1 billion. I wonder if even His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice would afford that. At least not by the salary I saw.
Laughter
Mr Lubinda: I do not think he would afford such a mortgage.
The Chairperson: Order!
Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili interjected.
The Chairperson: Order! Mr Kambwili, can you go back to your seat.
Laughter
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the passionate debate on the fight against corruption. Indeed, as a Government, we are committed to the fight against corruption. That is why we have approved the National Anti-Corruption Policy.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: If you read through that policy carefully, Hon. Lubinda, you will see the measures which we have prescribed in it which include issues to do with domestication of statutes and law reform. We shall pass new legislation in various areas which are spelt out in the policy.
Madam Chairperson, hon. Members talked about the inadequate budget which has affected almost all the institutions. They also talked about decentralisation and they doubted whether it is possible to decentralise.
Madam Chairperson, what I said in my policy statement on the decentralisation of operations of the ACC is that I alluded to the new five-year strategic plan having been put in place. This is the plan for 2009 to 2013. I also said that the implementation of the strategic plan has started. I went on to say that a new organisation structure to increase the establishment of the ACC from 361 to 381 positions has been approved and awaits Treasury authorisation. I also went to say that the increase in the staff establishment is intended to decentralise the operations of the ACC. This will be done over a period which is specified not necessary this year. Therefore, I thought I should clarify that.
Madam Chairperson, as we fight corruption, we must also observe the rule of law. The courts should also adhere to rules of justice. People must be tried fairly and according to the rules of justice.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: If people lose confidence in the courts, then we are finished. Justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done and people have confidence in the courts. Immediately people start doubting institutions such as the Anti-Corruption Commission, the Judiciary and the Task Force Against Corruption, …
Hon. Opposition Members: The Executive!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … -I am talking about oversight institutions, …
Laughter
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and the Office of the Auditor-General, who is going to check on corruption? Therefore, there is a need for integrity in the courts and in all these institutions.
Madam Chairperson, as a Government of laws, we also believe in the rules of justice and courts must always be above God so that if they acquit a person or they convict a person, people will be convinced that the conviction came about because of the evidence which was fairly adduced before the court.
Madam Chairperson, all issues such as that of whistle blowers are covered in the National Anti-Corruption Policy, the first one of its kind which we shall implement.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: However, as I mentioned before, whistle blowers can make reports about public officials, Members of Parliament and everybody else on corruption, but they should not make false reports. This is because those against whom they are making false reports are also entitled to human rights and protection. If you go to the police and put the machinery of investigations in motion, it means that the police will spend a lot of money and waste their time. Surely, you must be answerable for malicious reports.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We must balance the interest of whistle blowers by ensuring that wrong doers are brought to book, but must also protect innocent people. These are laws which we shall make in this country.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Vote 87/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
VOTE 89 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – K1,074,393,173,160)
The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity given to deliver a policy statement on the 2009 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.
Mr Lubinda: From both!
Dr Chituwo: I will present the first part and the second part shall be delivered by my colleague, …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chituwo: … Hon. Machila, Minister in Charge of Livestock and Fisheries.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili: Chacine alofwa saana nao alandeko lelo!
Laughter
Dr Chituwo: Madam Chairperson, the ministry’s mission statement …
Interruptions
Madam Chairperson: Order! Order!
Can we listen to the hon. Minister?
Dr Chituwo: … is to “facilitate and support the development of a sustainable and viable agriculture sector in order to ensure food security and income generation at the household and national levels and maximise the sector’s contribution to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP).”
The Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives comprises nine directorates and twelve agriculture training institutions.
The ministry is also responsible for the following statutory bodies and institutions:
(a) Zambia Coffee Board;
(b) Food Reserve Agency;
(c) Tobacco Board of Zambia;
(d) Livestock Development Trust;
(e) Cotton Development Trust; and
(f) Golden Valley Research Trust.
Madam Chairperson, my ministry recognises the important role that the agriculture sector plays in the economic development of our country. Broad-based poverty reduction may be unattainable without significant growth in agricultural output and productivity.
The Government also recognises the country’s enormous agriculture potential and the need to exploit this. Efforts will, therefore, go on to strengthen and expand the emerging opportunities to deal with the current challenges facing the agriculture sector such as rising food prices and climate change. The role of the private sector is paramount.
Madam Chairperson, allow me to briefly highlight some programmes that the ministry was able to undertake in 2008.
With the decrease in the budgetary allocation to the ministry from 8.8 per cent in 2007 to …
Madam Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Members, you are consulting loudly. Can we listen to the hon. Minister deliver his statement? Can we pay attention and show interest in what is going on.
Hon. Minister, you may continue, please.
Dr Chituwo: …, Madam Chairperson, to 5.7 per cent of the total National Budget in 2008, the ministry faced a lot of challenges in the implementation of priority programmes.
During the 2007/2008 Agricultural Season, the country recorded a modest food surplus of 43,000 metric tonnes of maize. However, wheat, cotton and tobacco recorded a significant increase in production.
A total of K80 billion was allocated for purchase of the strategic food reserves by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) in 2008.
The ministry was also able to support 200,000 small-scale farmers with 80,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser and 4,000 metric tonnes of maize seed during the 2008/2009 Farming Season, under the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) at a subsidy level of about 80 per cent. FSP is a well-intended programme, but for seven years, it has been operating with serious challenges, resulting in stagnant productivity of maize to an average 1.2 metric tonnes per hectare for the majority of smallholder farmers.
Madam Chairperson, allow me now to highlight what my ministry intends to focus on in 2009.
The Government is actively promoting increased investments in agriculture such as irrigation, farm machinery, livestock, fisheries, agri-business, research and agricultural infrastructure among others. This will enable the sector to significantly contribute to improved food security and the GDP of our country.
My ministry is also committed to agricultural diversification through the promotion of production, marketing and value addition of other primary agricultural commodities. These include high value crops such as cotton, coffee, soya beans, pineapples, cashew nuts and fresh vegetables.
Madam, in this year’s Budget, my ministry has been allocated K1,074,393,173,160. This is about 7 per cent of the total National Budget. Out of this amount, about 15 per cent will come from our co-operating partners and about 85 per cent will come from our own resources.
Some funds will go towards the provision of transport, equipment and rehabilitation of camp houses for extension officers and farmers’ training institutes/centres.
About K84.4 billion in this Year’s Budget has been allocated to infrastructure and land development of which:
(a) K15.2 billion has been allocated to the agricultural land husbandry;
(b) K3 billion will go towards the rehabilitation of agricultural institutions;
(c) K11.5 billion is for rehabilitation and construction of camp houses;
(d) K3.1 billion has been set aside for transport (motor vehicles and motor bikes); and
(e) K18.95 billion will be for land development (opening up of new land).
Madam Chairperson, K11 billion has been allocated for irrigation development. This amount will be used for rehabilitation of small agricultural dams in Chibombo, Kafue and Lundazi and to support smallholder irrigation schemes located in some parts of the country such as Shantumbu in Kafue, Tigone in Lundazi, Lukulu North in Kasama, Chinenke in Mbala, …
Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!
Dr Chituwo: … Kabulamwanda in Namwala, Ikelenge in Mwinilunga, Kapako in Kawambwa and Mulumbi in Milenge.
The ministry, through the Zambia Agriculture Research Institute (ZARI) will generate and provide demand-driven research technologies and services in soils, crops, plant protection and farming systems. This will contribute towards increased crop production, productivity and diversification.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chituwo: Support to ZARI will cover twelve research stations across the country. K19 billion has been allocated in this year’s Budget for the above activities.
Madam Chairperson, the FRA has been allocated K100 billion for the purchase of maize and other crops. However, the funding to FRA is inadequate if it is expected to purchase the required stocks for strategic reserves to avoid resorting to importation of maize at a high cost.
The Government intends to continue with the revised Fertiliser Subsidy Programme (FSP) in the 2009/10 Season. K435 billion has been allocated to the programme.
Madam, my ministry is committed to spearheading agricultural development through co-operative development. In this regard, the ministry has formulated a National Co-operative Development Policy which has since been submitted to Cabinet for consideration and approval. In this year’s Budget, K5.2 billion has been allocated for co-operative development.
My ministry is committed to supplying quality seed to the farming community. The Government has allocated K4 billion in this year’s Budget for the promotion of research in production and utilisation of good quality seed.
The ministry has been allocated K15 billion for agricultural training institutions. This allocation will enable the twelve agricultural colleges and training institutions to continue playing their role of providing trained manpower for the agricultural sector.
Madam Chairperson, K158.3 billion has been allocated for programmes and projects which are mostly financed by our co-operating partners. Of the amount allocated, K155.5 billion will come from co-operating partners and the Government will provide K3.3 billion as counterpart funding. At this stage, Madam Chairperson, we wish to sincerely thank our co-operating partners for this continued support.
The details of activities for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives shall be provided in the work plan which is under preparation.
Madam Chair, I submit this part of the budget for the hon. Members to support.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Livestock and Fisheries (Mr Machila): Madam Chairperson, allow me to make a statement on the livestock and fisheries sub-sectors. The mandate of the Veterinary and Livestock Development Department is to improve the health and productive efficiency of the livestock sector in a sustainable manner and support the marketing of livestock and livestock products in order to contribute to the alleviation of poverty, food security and income generation.
Madam Chairperson, the Government has made great strides in helping to combat the many livestock diseases that have ravaged the livestock sub-sector for a long time. The Ministry, last year, had to deal with two major diseases, namely foot and mouth disease (FMD) in Mazabuka, Monze, Namwala, Itezhi-tezhi and Choma in the Southern Province; Mumbwa in the Central Province; Sesheke, Senanga, Shangombo, Mongu and Kalabo in the Western Province and Nakonde and Mbala in the Northern Province and contagious bovine pleural pneumonia (CBPP) in the Western, North-Western and Southern provinces.
Madam Chairperson, control measures were aimed at reducing the disease incidence through vaccination campaigns. K4.5 billion was spent on the purchase of 541,700 doses of FMD vaccines, veterinary materials and field operations. In addition, K1.87 billion was spent on procurement of 485,200 doses of CBPP vaccines, veterinary materials and field operations.
Madam Chairperson, vaccination activities against east coast fever continued in the Eastern and Southern provinces. 17,200 calves were vaccinated against the disease in the Southern Province while 18,000 calves were vaccinated against the disease in the Eastern Province. Other measures that were taken to control livestock diseases included the imposition of a ban on livestock movements, especially from the Southern Province and slaughter of pigs in the North-Western Province due to African swine fever.
Interruptions
Mr Machila: Dr Scott will know about that.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Machila: The ministry also continued monitoring highly pathogenic avian …
Madam Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister is the one who is supposed to know that he should not bring Dr Scott into his debate.
Laughter
Mr Machila: I thank you, Madam Chairperson. The Ministry also continued monitoring highly pathogenic avian influenza (bird flu) across the country. In this year’s Budget, K75 billion has been allocated to livestock development of which:
(a) K27.9 billion has been allocated to districts to support the purchase of 558 motor bikes for veterinary camp extension officers, district and camp operations;
(b) K1.7 billion has been allocated to the nine provincial offices for their operations;
(c) K18.7 billion has been allocated to veterinary services most of which is for procurement of FMD and CBPP vaccines and operations, construction of check points, rehabilitation of veterinary quarantine stations and initiating the creation of livestock disease free zones;
(d) K10.1 billion has been allocated to management and co-ordination which will cater for institutional support, contributions to regional and international organisations;
(e) K5 billion has been allocated to the Kwando Zambezi Regional Tsetse Control Project;
(f) K3.6 billion has been allocated to livestock production and extension and will cater for reviving livestock breeding centres for cattle, goats and pigs;
(g) K7.5 billion has been allocated to veterinary research stations in Mazabuka, Central Veterinary Research Institute, Mwachipapa, Misamfu, Katete, Ngonga, National Livestock Epidemiology and information unit for rehabilitation and construction of laboratory infrastructure; and
(h) K500 million has been allocated to infrastructure rehabilitation in three provinces.
Madam Chairperson, the mandate of the fisheries sub-sector is to ensure sustainable utilisation of fisheries resources and promotion of aquaculture. In 2008, the fisheries sub-sector embarked on rehabilitation of Government fish farms for the purpose of producing quality fish seed for distribution to fish farmers. The Fisheries Department was also able to purchase water and land transport in 2008 for the officers across the country.
Madam Chairperson, this year, fisheries development is one of the areas that the ministry wishes to promote with a view to increasing and diversifying sources of protein and income through increased fish production. The department will focus on the rehabilitation of fishery infrastructure such as fish markets in Chembe and Mambova, landing sites in Lake Itezhi-tezhi and harbours in Mpulungu and Sinazongwe.
Madam Chairperson, in this year’s Budget, the Fisheries Department has been allocated K14.9 billion. These resources will be used for promoting fish conservation and appropriate fishing methodologies. In addition, participatory community fisheries management approaches in the spirit of public and private partnership will be enhanced. Training in fish processing techniques with a view to adding value will continue to be supported. Fish farming or aquaculture will continue to be promoted where there is potential. In order to realise the aforementioned, the Fisheries Department has allocated:
(a) K1.5 billion for programmes aimed at improving fish seed production;
(b) K4.3 billion for the development of fishery specific plans and fish seed multiplication and distribution;
(c) K4.7 billion for procurement of research equipment and rehabilitation of laboratories; and
(d) K4.9 billion for infrastructure rehabilitation.
Madam Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I would like to congratulate my two young successors on their appointment although it seems a pity that it takes two to do the job of one Mudala.
Laughter
Dr Scott: Perhaps, between them they will do a better job. I am prepared to wait and see how things turn out.
Laughter
Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, it is a pity when history, especially bad history, begins to repeat itself.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hon. Sikatana.
Dr Scott: The 1991 elections which were brought forward by more than two years by the First President were the result of a series of crisis that revolved very largely around the production and marketing of maize. There were mealie-meal riots on the Copperbelt. There was tremendous dissatisfaction in the rural areas under the Structural Adjustment Programme (SAP) which was agreed with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government had closed down the National Agriculture Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) in this House in 1989 and there was no replacement system. All these things together cost so much money and operated inefficiently and so politically that we had promises of virtually free inputs on one hand and high maize prices on the other hand and then very low consumer prices of mealie-meal on the other hand.
Madam Chairperson, this ate into to the national budget to a very large great degree and it is a little terrifying to see something of the same pattern of very large amounts of money going into trying to square the circle which, as the mathematicians say, cannot be done. There is no simple construction that will turn a circle into a square of the same area and we are trying to satisfy every body and achieve many objectives at the same time. Whether they are to do with poverty alleviation and food security at the village, household or national levels or whether they are to do with economic growth or enrichment of income generation, all these objectives have somehow been bundled up together and put upon this poor solitary one crop that is supposed to somehow achieve all the objectives that are required.
I would urge the hon. Minister because his budget in the maize sector, after we tried at least in the early days of MMD Government to bring it down, has grown like topsy, as they say in Britain, and could possibly end up out of hand if we keep promising people very cheap mealie-meal and fertiliser at very good prices at the farm gate and so on and so forth. It does not square up, and he needs to think to himself. I am talking now of the older of the two of my successors.
Madam Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
Dr Scott: He needs to think.
Madam Chairperson: Talk to the hon. Ministers. Do not compare their ages here. They are both hon. Ministers.
Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I would urge the first hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to try and sort out in his mind and that of his ministry which objectives and policies they are going to meet. If you look at this mythology of the vulnerable but viable farmer, for a widow with one leg, living 200 to 300 kilometres away to both be food secure and at the same time supply maize to the country economically, is not possible. We have to say that is a case for community or social welfare. That is a case of poverty alleviation that we shall budget as such and such and the programme of such and such. It is a lot cheaper in a lot of these cases to simply go down and hand out money than to pretend you are dealing with a viable farmer. A lot of people are not viable and they should not be pretended to be viable. These mythologies of viable but vulnerable that we come up with to please the donors, the slogans, just end up confusing ourselves. We need to clarify in our minds who we are serving with what programmes and what policies and where our food security is coming from. You do not need to place it all in the hands of commercial farmers, and I certainly would not recommend that, but the large and more efficient farmers in the maize suitable areas such as the Southern and Central provinces and Kaoma because it can feed into Mongu and Kabompo and can also feed into Angola. These are the areas where income-oriented investments need to be made, and not just in a shot gun manner across the country.
I was explaining to somebody the other day, and was asked how Dr Kaunda’s end came? I said in Zambia, we have something called Ilomba. You can make an Ilomba do something good to make you money …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … or cultivate your field. I am sure, Madam Chairperson, everybody in this House knows what an Ilomba is.
Hon. Members: No.
Madam Chairperson: What is that?
Dr Scott: An Ilomba.
Madam Chairperson: An Ilomba!
Laughter
Dr Scott: It is a witchcraft creature …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … which can be manufactured by certain procedures …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … in order to fulfil specific objectives that you want. As it grows, the diet moves from harmless things like milk to blood …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … and it can end up eating your friends or relatives …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … and eventually it eats you.
Laughter
Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Laughter
Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairperson, I did not wish to interrupt the former Agriculture Minister.
Mr Muyanda: Vice-President of the PF.
Mr Sichilima: Vice-President of the PF.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sichilima: Is he in order to debate the way he is by referring to Ilomba and explaining its activities without really telling us where he learnt how to breed an Ilomba and its activities? I need your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.
Laughter
Madam Chairperson: The hon. Member decided to share knowledge on witchcraft, according to him, the Ilomba witchcraft. We do not know whether he has trained himself in witchcraft. If he has, then he may be self confessed.
Laughter
Madam Chairperson: However, with regard to the knowledge that is shared in this House, people do not tell us where they get it from. The hon. Member may be seen as qualified, but we do not know where he got the qualification from.
You may continue, please, hon. Member.
Laughter
Dr Scott: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I am not from a school which says I have a PhD, you have to believe me. The knowledge came from somewhere though I do not know where exactly.
Laughter
Dr Scott: However, I think the point I am making is very true. This maize sector has grown out of control and brought down the Government before now. Both the hon. Minister and the Government need to think very carefully about how this maize sector is going to be kept down to size and kept from having an appetite for the wrong kinds of things. I agree with him that it is a very difficult problem, but we can help him in this House. He just needs to recognise that he has a potential problem on his hands and not just something which is straightforward and just needs more money thrown at it.
Madam Chairperson, on irrigation, I will just say it is emblematic in many ways of agriculture in this country. We talk and talk, but we do not look. If the hon. Minister will take a tour of irrigation schemes around this country, for example, he will find an irrigation canal that runs from the Lwitikila Water Fall down past Chief Chikwanda’s Village and into the Lwitikila River again. That canal was built by the Israelis in the 1960s just before we cut off diplomatic relations with Israel over the Six-Day War. It is now completely defunct and has been for many years. It is the jealousies amongst the farmers; the people who have access to water and those who do not that have that led to the collapse of that irrigation system. There must be a system or structure which enables people to work together. It is not good just setting up a co-operative, and yet expecting that somehow it is going to make a complicated system of sharing because that is what it is; a complicated system of sharing has to work. However, for a complicated system of sharing to work, various factors have to be taken into account.
In the Western Province south of Mongu, I think it is in Sefula, there is an irrigation scheme which was built by the Japanese at a cost of US$4 million, taking advantage of the river flowing onto the flood plain there. It was designed in Tokyo, transported to Zambia and laid out. One can move across that whole plot, which I think is 200 hectares, without finding any agriculture going on except for one muzezulu who is married to a Lozi woman. He is growing rice, rearing some cattle and so on and so forth. The rest of it is so unsuitable and badly designed in relation to the Lozi traditional flood margin agriculture that it is just defunct. It is hardly fulfilling any function whatsoever. These are expensive toys in a country where only 37 per cent of people have access to clean water. If we want to put up irrigation schemes, we need to know what we are doing or we will waste a lot of money.
Interestingly enough, in the Lusaka area, there is an irrigation scheme that is working extremely well and all that one has do is open his or her eyes and say what he or she sees. What we see are the Jehovah’s Witnesses because they are able to co-operate because of their common religious beliefs and making the irrigation system work extremely well. We just have to recognise what we see before our eyes. It is not surprising that the Island of Bali has one of the most ancient irrigation and productive systems in the entire world. The irrigation system on this island takes water from a volcanic lake down across the entire country and into the sea ultimately. The entire religion of that country is built around the water, the irrigation, the water goddess and the priest who determines the time to take water from one rice paddy to another.
Therefore, the whole question of organising so that there is efficient and productive sharing takes more than just having a workshop and describing a vision and mission statement. Such an approach has proved to be unworkable. Therefore, I would urge the hon. Minister to look at the existing irrigation infrastructure and capital and take careful note of what has gone wrong or right rather than simply to just be muttering and giving incantations about irrigation every time we meet in this House at this time of year. That is my advice on that subject.
Madam, I wish I could believe in this issue of diversification, but it is more of rhetoric. The subsidies are growing pretty much around 100 per cent whether it is the Food Reserve Agency’s (FRA) subsidies in terms of purchasing crops or some token cassava, sweet potatoes or something else. However, this is less than one per cent of what FRA buys. The agency buys maize which is not very suitable for storage. The seeds for these alternative crops are not even subsidised, as we heard that in a question the other day on the Floor of this House. These other crops are supposed to be growing and financing themselves somehow. However, with maize one can get inputs, outputs and everything else.
Therefore, as regards crop diversification, we are yet to see anything serious in it except for some commercially lead cut in tobacco production. Somewhere in the North-Western Province there is a village called Kingovwa between Solwezi and Chingola …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … which is the centre of the sweet potato export industry in Zambia? Thirty tonne trucks are loaded with sweet potatoes and taken to Botswana. However, if one asks the Central Statistical Office how much sweet potato we export, it says nothing because it only recognises the category of Irish potatoes.
Laughter
Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, had I the time, I would have liked to say something about the importance of good organic management of the soil. Organic farming does not mean total abandonment of artificial fertilisers, but means more respect for the requirement of organic matter in soils, especially to stop them from becoming acidic and eroded and especially to stop this total dependence on imported fertiliser.
I see that Mr Machila is looking very neglected there because I have not mentioned anything to do with livestock …
Laughter
Dr Scott: … or with fish. All I can say is that I wish this country was a police State when it comes to livestock disease management. I am not talking about a police State when it comes to dealing with the rest of us, but when it comes to the control of diseases. There would be no exceptions in smuggling of cattle across the Kafue River or the anarchy allowed in livestock management and then we would have a worthwhile sector; worth even more than maize farming.
Madam, with those few words, and I apologise if the witchcraft information was a little inaccurate, I thank you.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: The Chair appeals to hon. Members to speak with some sense of time management.
Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives is very important, especially this time when our mining industry is failing us. This ministry can actually assist us to live and move on. Therefore, I wish to appeal to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to look into the affairs of peasant farmers. This ministry needs to understand the problems that peasant farmers are facing. Once this is done, the problems of these farmers will easily be addressed. Many a time we have heard that a lot of efforts are being made, but I think most of the issues that this ministry is handling are those that have to do with commercial farmers.
Madam Chairperson, I would like to just remind the hon. Minister that one of the critical areas that our farmers need help in is access to inputs. I do not understand the system that this ministry uses in taking inputs to small-scale farmers most of the time. Almost every year, top dressing is delivered in October while seed is taken at the end of November or December and then basal fertiliser is given in January. This system is actually failing our farmers.
Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: What we want to see is a situation whereby farmers are given ample time to plan. A farmer will not know how much land to cultivate if seed is given in September or if basal fertiliser is not given almost at the same time with the seed. However, this system of doing things in reverse is actually not helping us.
With regard to the marketing season, you allow a farmer to grow crops without even telling him how much he is going to sell the crops at. You actually contribute to the poor planning of farmers. What we want is for the farmer to be told even as he or she plants, how much he or she is going to sell a bag of maize or sunflower at. What we have is a situation where a farmer just goes into farming without knowing what to grow and how much money he or she is going to get from the crops that he or she is growing.
The other issue I would like to talk about is the reliability of our extension officers. I think we need to train them in a manner that will enable them understand the problems of a farmer. If I remember correctly, Hon. Mbewe asked a question on the Floor of this House why we were not upgrading colleges like Monze School of Agriculture to start providing diploma courses.
Mr Munaile: And Mpika.
Mr Sing’ombe: We have extension officers who go into the field very raw; they do not understand what our farmers need. When they go there they become competitors because they do not know what to do. In other words, they become more or less like a conveyor belt for illegal activities in terms of distribution of fertilisers. For example, in my constituency, Dundumwenzi, one extension officer has abandoned the station because he swindled farmers money amounting to K10 million.
This clearly shows that these people are not trained. There is no way one will go to a constituency and instead of teaching people techniques of farming, he or she starts swindling them money like this officer who got K10 million did. This is not acceptable.
Madam Chairperson, regarding cattle restocking, this was a very good programme. However, the concept was designed by a person who did not know what he wanted to achieve; a person who had no timeframe to achieve what he wanted to. Let me just give a very clear illustration. If you give X, Y and Z animals and the concept behind this is that the animals should remain Government property until the three farmers passed on the calves to the other farmers. Let us imagine, you give a farmer a calf this year which will remain Government property until at a point when the farmer is able to pass on the calf to another farmer -and this is where my problem is regarding a third beneficiary. From the little knowledge I gained from the village where I grew up, for a calf to grow to a stage where it can have another calf, it takes three years. If someone is given a calf this year, he or she will only pass it on after three years, which will be 2011.
Therefore, what are we trying to achieve? I thought this should have been the other way round. If I were an officer in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, I would have advised the hon. Minister to pass on the big cow immediately it calves so that the first farmer remains with the calf and the cow continues producing so that the chain goes on.
However, look at a person that I will give a calf today, the third person in line is going to benefit, maybe, after fifteen years while if I had to pass on the cow, the third beneficiary will benefit in the third year. Therefore, we should be thinking that way so that we make other people benefit almost immediately.
Madam Chairperson, I want to thank the ministry for zero rating farming implements, but I think we should have gone a little further. We should have also looked into other materials such as barbed wire. We peasant farmers …
Mr Munaile: Fwe bang’ombe!
Mr Sing’ombe: … would actually reduce on the cutting down of trees, especially in the rural areas if the price for barbed wire was also reduced. This would also assist this ministry to reduce the spread of diseases in the rural areas because most areas have communal grazing areas and that way diseases spread quickly. Therefore, if the price for barbed wire was reduced, most farmers or peasant farmers would easily fence their farms and protect animals from going to other areas.
May I also warn the hon. Minister of Livestock and Veterinary Services that he is headed for a very big problem?
Mr Munaile: He has a problem with me.
Mr Sing’ombe: What you have done in Sichifulo has brought us a lot of problems.
The Chairperson: Order! Mr Sing’ombe, that is seriously not a matter for this place.
You may continue on other issues, please.
Mr Sing’ombe: Thank you for reminding me. What you have done in place X is that you have allowed animals to move from place X which you had said was highly infected with CBPP to areas such as Dundumwenzi, Namwala and Pemba. At the moment, animals are dying due to CBPP. For what you have done in place X, hon. Minister, you have to come in and assist us.
Hon. UPND Members: Sichifulo!
The Chairperson: Order! You simply talk about the animals. We do not want you to reopen certain issues.
Laughter
Mr Sing’ombe: Lastly, the animals that have come from Sichifulo have brought us a lot of problems and we would like the hon. Minister to quickly go in and sort out the problems that have come from Sichifulo.
I thank you, Madam.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Chairperson, I would like to indicate that I am supporting this budget. In doing so, I would like to draw attention to a few issues that I think are important for the ministry to consider.
I know that there is no part of this country that is not involved in agriculture and because of that, it is something that is close not only to our hearts, but also to the heart of the Government since they continue to say that they have given it priority. I am just sad for the hon. Ministers that the budget that they have to deal with this major activity is not very useful, but we wish them the best.
Currently, the Government is supporting the production of maize and I think Hon. Dr Scott has talked about this. The limitation in this budget provision is not helpful because the money that goes to support maize production supports the large-scale farmers more than the small-scale farmers. The small-scale producers of maize who are not able to access their fertiliser at the time and in the amounts they want end up producing whatever they are able to produce for the big millers. The millers choose when and what to buy at their price. What is left is bought by the Food Reserve Agency and, again, at a price that is determined at the point when small-scale farmers do not have anything to sell. The Government is supposed to help small-scale farmers but the opposite is the case.
Let me also talk about the issue of diversification in agriculture. If we look at cotton, for example, not many farmers produce it. A company called Donovant Limited buys and sells sprayers and seeds, but most farmers depend on commercial farmers to provide them with the necessary inputs. I wish there was a way of helping the small-scale farmers.
On the issue of irrigation, Madam Chairperson, if this is going to help us, there must be a link with other ministries, especially the Ministries of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Lands, Energy and Water Development and Communications and Transport because agriculture is a business. We are all aware that most of our rivers, dams, streams and canals are silted. I think it is important that the ministries I have mentioned work together by dredging and clearing canals every year. If this is not done, there will be a lot of sand piled up and our rivers will not be able to contain the water during the rainy season because the banks overflow and crops are submerged.
I urge the Government to put resources together and see to it that this is done in good time. Let us avoid water spilling into Mozambique, causing floods. Most of the rivers in neighbouring countries that contain water are usually dry by June/July and so I urge the Government to look into this issue and make sure that there are dredging machines …
Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!
Ms Imbwae: … to use in our rivers, dams, streams and canals. Once this is done, it will help boost agriculture.
Hon. Opposition Member: Time!
Ms Imbwae: I will be quick.
The other issue I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister is that the ministry should work with other ministries to alleviate disasters. The Office of the Vice-President is overwhelmed with requests for food and tents when there are floods. If we managed our rivers, dams and canals, we would actually spend less money than we are at the moment. The money that we spend on disaster management is a lot more than the money we would spend on buying equipment to clear rivers, streams and dams as earlier indicated.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Imbwae: Madam Chairperson, most of the countries in the sub-region are not talking about the Kyoto Protocol anymore. They have passed that stage. An amount of K47,520,000 has been allocated, and yet our colleagues are working on the Hugo Protocol which is actually friendlier to manage in relation to issues of migration, hunger and disasters. I urge the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to link with other ministries and make sure that they harness water resources so that environmental issues are better addressed and we improve on agriculture and avoid deforestation.
Madam, there is also the issue of agro-forestry. We are losing a lot of carbon because deforestation is not being addressed. Some places have become deserts. This is not Israel but Zambia which is blessed with many rivers. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to harness the wealth in our rivers and make sure that agriculture becomes a business.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Madam Chairperson, I stand to support the vote pertaining to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives though I place a culvert on certain issues. It is a known fact that the policies of this Government …
Interruptions
Madam Chairperson: Order! There is too much loud consultation and it becomes difficult to follow the debate.
Can we listen to the debate, please?
You may continue, please.
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I was about to say that the policies of this Government have contributed to the high poverty levels in this country.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The Policies of this Government have humiliated the hardworking people of Zambia.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The policies of this Government have impoverished the once proud men and women of Zambia.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Prior to the advent of the Movement for Multiparty Destruction, oh, Democracy, …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: … agriculture was the mainstay of this country. The proud farmers of Zambia who were able to produce maize and other crops had a ready market.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: They were not made to suffer the humiliation of waiting for handouts from the Government. The Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) through the MMD has inflicted pain on Zambians …
Major Chizhyuka: Pangs of pain.
Mr Mwiimbu: As a result, they have made proud Zambians to rely on relief food.
Major Chizhyuka: That is very bad.
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, any prudent government cannot be proud to have their people survive on relief food. There is no dignity in relief food. A person who survives on relief food cannot take his or her children to school or access medical facilities.
Madam Chairperson, as a result of the policies of your Government, the people of Zambia are living in squalor.
Major Chizhyuka: Social degradation.
Mr Mwiimbu: Due to the poor policies of the Government, corruption in the agriculture sector is rife.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Owing to the high levels of corruption in the agriculture sector, our people are failing to access the Fertiliser Support programme (FSP).
Madam Chairperson, according to the reports we have received as hon. Members of Parliament, this last planting season, in Monze, more than 800 packs of fertiliser and seed went missing. To date, no one has been held accountable.
Hon. UPND Member: Even the Anti-Corruption Commission does not know.
Mr Mwiimbu: It is deliberate because people who are responsible for the distribution in the Fertiliser Support Programme are the ones who are involved. We are aware that senior officers in various Government departments are involved. We are also aware that even the security wings of the Government which are supposed to investigate were involved in the scam.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Why should we allow a well-thought out programme to end up violated and abused by certain individuals? As a consequence of the abuse, our people will continue to rely on relief food.
Madam Chairperson, because of the poor policies of this Government, animal diseases are being celebrated like traditional ceremonies in Zambia.
Hon. Member: Aah!
Mr Mwiimbu: During the good days of the UNIP regime, drugs were manufactured in Zambia. However, the MMD Government thought it prudent to sell our equipment to other countries.
Hon. Opposition Members: Malawi.
Mr Mwiimbu: Now, we end up importing the same drugs at a high cost. Fortunately for me in my constituency, I have organisations that are gallant and have been assisting the people.
Mr Muntanga: Roman Catholic.
Mr Mwiimbu: I have in mind the gallant Catholic Church.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: If it were not for the Catholic Church to provide extension services, our people were not going to have these services from GRZ.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The Catholic Church in my constituency is providing the requisite animal husbandry training and inputs to the poor and vulnerable people.
Major Chizhyuka: Where is the Government?
Mr Mwiimbu: I stand here very proud that the Catholic Church has assisted my people and I will always associate myself with it, as well as churches such as the Seventh Day Adventists, the United Church of Zambia and others that have been assisting the people of Zambia.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the churches deserve praise from all of us in this House for the assistance they give to our people. The Government should not abuse the churches. They must be seen to be applauding the co-operating partners. If it were not for these churches, people in Monze Central Constituency would not have benefited from their policies.
I would like to call upon all of us to stand up and support the churches of Zambia for the support they have been giving us.
With those few remarks, I thank you, Madam.
Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, I only have one issue to talk about and I promise to be brief and to the point.
I am concerned that the small-scale farmers will face a problem with regard to the market for their crops this year. This is because the Yellow Book does not reflect any money for the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to buy crops this year. A small amount has been given to the FRA to purchase and store the crops. K100 billion has been allocated this year. Last year, the FRA was allocated K80 billion which translates into an increase of K20 billion. Along the way, K260 billion was given through the Supplementary Budget, bringing the total to K340 billion.
The day before yesterday, as I was driving to attend the funeral of the late Chief Luchembe, may his soul rest in peace, I saw a lot of maize along the way. When I went deep into the villages, I saw some good maize coming up in Mfuwe, Kanchibiya and parts of the Central Province. However, my worry was on who would buy this maize. There was a directive by the President in his speech to the House that the FRA must concentrate on purchasing maize from the small-scale farmers in the rural areas. I am wondering …
The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.
[MADAM CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]
Mr C. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that it appears that we are going to have a good yield this year. I believe we all know that about K4 billion has been invested in FSP. Therefore, we expect a lot of maize. I am sure that by investing K4 billion in this programme, we expect to reap more.
However, I am worried about the allocation of K100 billion for the purchase of the same crop. To me, it does not make sense. In fact, this K100 billion is not only meant for the purchase of maize, but also FRA is expected to increase the number of buying satellites. Transport and labour will also increase. Therefore, it will be very difficult for FRA to buy maize from the farmers. Like my colleagues have already said, this makes the Government fail to come up with a reasonable floor price for maize. The Government ends up putting a price that will not benefit the farmer. This is the concern that I wanted to raise regarding FRA and the purchase of maize this year. I am concerned because I know that the people of Chinsali have grown a lot of maize and it will be very difficult for them to sell their crop.
Madam Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is that of FSP.
Mr Munaile: Bushe mulepwa uno mwaka!
Mr C. Mulenga: Madam, like many other hon. Members have already said, FSP is a very good programme, but the problem is the way it is being managed. We have lamentably failed to manage this programme the way it was supposed to.
Mr V. Mwale: Question!
Mr C. Mulenga: Yes, we have failed.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. Mulenga: The problem is that, FSP has been politicised. There is too much politics in this programme.
Mr V. Mwale: Question!
Mr C. Mulenga: We need to remove these politics because the small-scale farmers will not eat politics, but their concern is to ensure that food is grown. In the past, small-scale farmers used to grow a lot of maize. Those days, you could be driving from Lusaka to Chinsali and if you happened to have a brake down on the way, farmers or villagers would come to give you food. You would not pay anything, but today, when such a thing happens, they expect to be given something in return.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. Mulenga: Actually, this Government has reduced the seventy-three tribes into two. We have a class of beggars and that of plunderers.
Interruptions
Mr C. Mulenga: That is all we have in this country. We only have two classes of people.
Hon. Members: Where do you belong?
Mr C. Mulenga: I belong to the class of beggars. We only have two classes of people, that is, the class of beggars and that of plunderers.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer them!
Mr C. Mulenga: Like my colleagues talked about the …
Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Madam.
The Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.
Mr Shakafuswa: I stand on a very serious point of order …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: … and I will even borrow Hon. Chizhyuka’s gesture. Is the hon. Member for Chinsali …
Mr V. Mwale: Who is debating so badly.
Mr Shakafuswa: … in order to classify Zambians into plunderers and beggars when I stand here and feel that I do not belong to either of the classes he is talking about. Is it in order for him to classify Zambians as such when Zambia is not classified? I need your serious ruling.
Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: The point of order raised by Mr Shakafuswa must be taken into account seriously by Mr C. Mulenga as he debates. Over generalising statements in such a manner may not be acceptable. You may be a little more specific with what you want to say, but to call people plunderers and beggars as that which constitutes the nation of Zambia is not the correct picture. Mr C. Mulenga, consider that and put your record straight.
Mr C. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.
All I am trying to say is that today, people are surviving on relief food. Is that not begging? People are surviving on relief food …
The Chairperson: Order!
Mr C. Mulenga: … and …
The Chairperson: Order, Mr C. Mulenga. The manner you are putting things is portraying a picture that Zambia does not have any straight person at all who earns their own living. It is either they are begging or plundering. Is that the picture you want to portray?
Can you put your picture straight and stop justifying?
Hon. Members: Withdraw!
Interruptions
Mr C. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.
Madam, I was saying that we should not politicise the distribution of fertiliser under the Fertiliser Support Programme. People in rural areas need to grow their own food. If you look at …
Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mbewe: Is the hon. Member debating on the Floor, who is saying that the Fertiliser Support Programme has been politicised, in order to mislead the people when the people who are involved in politics like himself, the hon. Member, are not even members of the District Agricultural Committee (DAC). Therefore, how does he justify that the Fertiliser Support Programme has been politicised?
I need your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: Order! On that point of order, no matter how sympathetic the Chair may want to be, being politicised is a very general statement and that issue can be raised through debate to counter what Mr C. Mulenga is saying.
The hon. Member may continue, please.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, what I simply mean is that we need to help the small-scale farmers by providing them with fertiliser so that they grow enough food. By so doing, we will not depend on relief food all the time. It is not good for my constituency to start asking for relief food from the Office of the Vice-President.
Mr Munaile: Insala ni ndiminwa tempulilwa!
Mr C. Mulenga: This should not be done all the time. We have enough land for farming and the water is just flowing into the Indian Ocean. We should be able to utilise our land and water.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order! The House will listen to the hon. Member on the Floor.
Mr C. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, due to poor planning by the Government, only about 6 per cent of our land is used for farming. We are supposed to plan properly since we are talking about diversification. If we do not do that, how are we going to achieve our goal? The problem is that fertiliser is delivered late to the farmers. I am, therefore, appealing to the Government to ensure that in the next season, farmers receive fertiliser in time so that they can plan properly.
Lastly, I would like to talk about the Mbesuma Ranch. This ranch is in the Chambeshi Plain and it is very beautiful scenery. Hon. Muntanga knows about this land very well because he took his animals there sometime back.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Hon. Members, listen, please.
Mr C. Mulenga: I want to appeal to the Government to revive Mbesuma Ranch. I am happy that rehabilitation of the infrastructure at the ranch has started. However, I would like to encourage the hon. Minister to ensure that animals go to Mbesuma Ranch in Chinsali. This will actually encourage all the farmers in the Northern Province to start keeping cattle.
Madam Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: The hon. Member had promised to be very brief. However, he did not seem to have been brief. Can I ask hon. Members to try and make their points with less repetition if we have to make progress?
Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate.
Madam Chairperson, the answer to poverty alleviation lies in land. Agriculture is the most probable solution to poverty alleviation. I would like to give a few examples. There is one farmer I have come to respect who seems to have gone through hard times, and he gave me a good example. He told me that in Zambia, even when there is a flood or drought, a crop will always survive. I have come to learn this lesson. It all depends on good agricultural practices.
Madam Chairperson, in Zambia, if one plants early, he or she will have a good harvest. All the time, Feed Africa, Robinson Mwansa, used to plough 800 hectares of rain fed maize and he always had a good harvest.
When I went into farming, my friend, Hon. Muntanga used to tease me that I was farming by accident.
Laughter
Mr Shakafuswa: Today, Hon. Muntanga, I have 150 hectares of maize, which I planted by November last year and I might be able to feed the whole of Katuba.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: With 150 hectares of maize, I am the biggest farmer in Katuba.
Madam Chairperson, you would be surprised people who do not use animal and motorised drawn power, but hoes are doing better than those tilling the land using animal and motorised power. The idea is that the Government should come in and reinforce. They should tell people not to burn their fields but gather the grass and put it in holes so that when November comes, the grass will be composite manure. They do not need this fertiliser we cry for. This is a new phenomenon, which is even destroying our soil.
There are conservative methods which we can practice in our areas and can help our people. As for those who are complaining of not having done enough, there is grass in the land. Whilst it is wet, they should make moulds now so that the grass is buried and when October comes they can put it in holes.
Hon. MMD Members: Wedges.
Mr Shakafuswa: Wedges? Whatever they call them. Ntumbila.
Madam Chairperson, when November comes, they will have a good harvest. Looking at how much money the Government has put in the Fertiliser Support Programme, it has not been beneficial. I was, at least, privileged to be at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning under Hon. Magande, and looking at the investment we have put in the so called FSP, and the Food Reserve Agency, it is a sank cost. That is one cost whereby if you asked for a cost benefit analysis today, you will see that we have failed the nation.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: We are spending huge amounts of money. However, if you ask about the return to the nation, it is almost negligible. Maybe we should ask ourselves whether we are looking at poverty alleviation or politicising the issue. What are we looking at?
Madam Chairperson, if it means increasing food production, we must look at farmers who are not farming by accident. Let us target farmers who we know are going to produce enough to feed the nation. Then, we will not have these problems of importation of Genetically Modified Organism (GMO) maize and stuff like that. We will also avoid questions of tender procedures. We will have a situation whereby we have food security in the nation.
Madam, someone said that we have only farmed 6 per cent of our country. I would have liked to see the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives supported so that farmers like myself, who this year intend to open up 100 hectares of virgin land, are given loans by the Government payable over a period of five years so that they can use that money to open up the land. Then, the money realised from the harvest is ploughed back into farming to plant 250 hectares this year.
Hon. opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Shakafuswa: Therefore, even the so-called emergent farmers who are graduating from peasantry need to be supported so that they can feed the nation because once we ignore the fact that we have a crop which we are supposed to buy, we will not waste a lot of money.
Madam Chairperson, with regard to this reliance we are crying about in relation to peasantry and other issues, if somebody has a field which is less than a hectare, he or she can apply conservative farming. He or she does not need fertiliser. These are the things we should teach our farmers. We must assist farmers who are going to farm pieces of land over five hectares and above. As for those who are able to farm fifty hectares, a category must be put in place to help them because the issue at hand is to look at people who are also going to help this nation.
Madam Chairperson, we need to sit down and re-visit the Fertilizer Support Programme because looking at the rate at which we are going, it is not only the Government who are politicising this issue, but also everyone is politicising it because we do not seem to understand what it is and the implications of it. Therefore, I think, we should sit down because there are a lot of people out there with good ideas on how to go about this issue.
Madam Chairperson, we should also look at the Food Reserve Agency. Every year FRA is given money to purchase maize. That is a business. If you give FRA K400 billion this year, next year, they will ask for another K400 billion. Where is the K400 billion which was given to them last year? What have they done with K400 billion? This comes back to their practices.
Madam Chairperson, maize was bought at US$190 per tonne, but was sold to somebody at US$140 per tonne. Where is the logic? They went ahead and sold all their maize at less than US $200 per tonne when we are importing maize at US$4000 per tonne. The Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives should have an oversight of FRA because we are just enriching that institution.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, there is one person at FRA who made US$8.5 million by buying maize from FRA and selling it back to the same institution. They are buying subsidised maize and selling it to millers and then, they come back and sell the same maize to the Government. That is wrong. Those who bought the maize could have Members of any political party, but I do not think any MMD Member benefited. If they did, I would have said it.
Interruptions
Mr Shakafuswa: No! Let us be straightforward.
The Chairperson: Order! Do not start a conversation.
Mr Shakafuswa: Therefore, we should look into the dealings of FRA.
Mr Munaile: Ulula!
Mr Shakafuswa: Why is it that year in and year out, we are spending so much money and at the end of the day, we cannot see the benefits we are deriving from such monies. I think the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should have a way of spending this money and having a profit at the end of the day for the people of Zambia because if K400 billion was taken to CDF or the construction of roads, what size of road network were we going to have. It would have been big.
Madam Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is on agriculture forecasts and input delivery. The question I would like to ask the hon. Minister is whether he is sure we have not learnt a lesson. We spend K5 billion to import fertiliser and half of it is used for that particular season because it has come on time and the other half is not used because it comes in late. In the meantime, we would have already paid K5 billion to the supplier. As a result, fertiliser which comes in February is a waste of Government resources. Why is it that we are using suppliers who bring this commodity very late? I would, therefore, urge the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to look into the procurement procedures.
Sometimes, it is surprising to note that some people bring fertiliser into this country and distribute it at a cheaper price, and yet in most cases, they are not the ones who won the tender for procuring or distributing fertiliser.
Mr Kambwili: Why?
Mr Shakafuswa: In the world market, petroleum prices have gone down and fertiliser is a derivative of petroleum products. At the moment, fertiliser is supposed to be cheap. Hon. Minister, I would urge you to look into the price of fertiliser. How much can we buy fertiliser at?
Madam Chairperson: Order!
Mr Shakafuswa, please, speak through the Chair.
Laughter
Mr Shakafuswa: Hon. Minister, through the Chair, …
Laughter
Mr Shakafuswa: … you must ensure that we spend K400 billion on the Fertiliser Support Programme this year, which is enough to cater for 500,000 peasant farmers. However, we should not only cater for peasant farmers, but also various types of farmers. For example, 300,000 peasant farmers and 200,000 of other farmers who will be able to grow other crops to feed the nation. Mostly, peasant farmers invest so much in their crop, but and at the end of the day they get nothing out of a year’s investment.
I would, therefore, suggest that we run Government like a business whereby whatever money we spend, it has to bring in returns. To do this, we need to open the marketing of fertiliser to other distributors as well instead of confining ourselves to the only two fertiliser distributors we know year in and year out.
Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: In fact, hon. Minister, you can have two distributors with separate functions, whereby somebody else brings fertiliser into the country and contracts others to distribute to the rest of the country. This will help to break down the functions. For example, somebody can bring in a commodity at a reasonable price and engage transporters to distribute that commodity to various places. This means he or she will give business to the people in the transport business that are familiar with the terrains of their areas to distribute that particular commodity.
Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: We must save Government money by getting the best price on the market.
Madam Chairperson, another example I would refer to is on how fast the Ministry of Energy and Water Development acted when they had problems in procuring crude oil. The Government, through the Bank of Zambia, released US$120 million to procure crude oil directly from the source. Why can we not also look for a cheaper source for fertiliser? Instead of spending K400 billion we can only spend about K150 billion to procure fertiliser from the source which would be distributed to the whole country because there will be no mark ups.
Mr Kambwili: Kanshi balikulisha!
Mr Shakafuswa: I know that the hon. Minister is an all rounder. I know that ‘Obama’ is an all rounder …
Madam Chairperson: Order, order!
You are addressing the ministers and not Obamas here.
Laughter
Madam Chairperson: Talk about the ministers through the Chair.
Dr Katema: Wakula Jonas!
Mr Shakafuswa: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is an all rounder and I would like to say that we are very proud of him. He is a very good product from our area. We know he is capable …
Interruptions
Ms Cifire: Wayamba tribalism iwe!
Laughter
Mr Shakafuswa: … of doing the right thing.
As for Hon. Bradford O. Machila, …
Laughter
Mr V. Mwale: Obama Machila!
Mr Shakafuswa: … I would urge him to work with his colleague just as Hon. Dr Scott said that there are now two people in one. Therefore, we must see a change.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: Next year, this time around, we should have a different message when the House sits. Everyone in the world will say that Zambia has people who are capable of moving the nation forward.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ntundu: Quality!
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson …
Mrs Musokotwane: Sichifulo!
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: …I thank you very much for giving me a chance to contribute to the debate on this Vote.
Madam Chairperson, it is a pity that we have two hon. Ministers under one ministry who do not have proper job descriptions. One is asked to head a department when the other talks about agriculture.
Madam Chairperson, the late President at one time said, there are people who would like to cause confusion in agriculture and I can say that this is the beginning of the confusion he talked about.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, we have two hon. Ministers and two permanent secretaries in this ministry. One hon. Minister has no budget, but they are working together and being nice to one another. They have agreed that one should talk about the department while the other will talk about what is happening in the whole ministry. That is wrong.
Madam Chairperson, as for the two permanent secretaries, who is supposed to talk about agriculture and who should talk about livestock? The present situation is that the one who was appointed and announced to be Permanent Secretary for Livestock and Fisheries is actually the Permanent Secretary for the whole ministry and the other one continues as Permanent Secretary in charge of Marketing and Co-operatives. At the ministry headquarters there is confusion.
The President had announced that he was going to create a ministry and we agreed that he does that so that things are straightened. If I want to discuss livestock development, I would know where to go. The Committee of this House did not propose this confusion, but the creation of a ministry. You are using the report of the Committee by putting a minister in charge of a department and making the other minister senior to him.
Madam Chairperson, if that is the policy, then it is wrong. We are now talking about K1.74 trillion for agriculture and co-operatives, but somewhere along the line, we are talking of K70 billion for that department, why can we not straighten things once and for all.
In the ministry, we have other things to sort out in livestock development and disease control. We should know which permanent secretary should be in charge.
There is a cordon line in the Western Province and when we talk about a cordon line we are just talking about barbed wire rolls. You put up a barbed wire, but no guards to guard this wire and as such the wires are being removed. You spent a lot of money on the wires, but because there are no guards, these are being removed. Now you have allocated K100 million to patch this wire and say you have a cordon line. You are not serious. The cordon line which divides Kazungula and the Western Province is not there already soon after construction.
I now come to the Fertiliser Support Programme. I can say that this is political because it is a political party that introduced it and they do not know how to handle it. You announce that you are going to have this fertiliser support with fertiliser costing K50,000 when the rest of the fertiliser costs K250,000. When one farmer grows maize with fertiliser costing K50,000 and another one grows maize with fertiliser costing K250,000, how much will a bag of maize cost? Can you look at that hon. Minister? The business unit should work out the inputs to arrive at a reasonable price of a bag of maize. How will the Food Reserve Agency buy this maize when it has been grown by two categories of farmers; those who bought fertiliser at K50,000 per bag and those who bought it at K250,000. I would like to know which maize will go to the millers and how much a bag of mealie meal will cost. You will only run when you see people threatening to break shops in town because there is no mealie meal. That is when you will wake up.
Why did you not wake up earlier?
Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!
Interruptions
Mr Muntanga: You are supposed to know the price of fertiliser which is an input that will result into mealie meal prices. That is important. I have said over and over to the people in Government to stop looking at fertiliser problems with divided prices. In the United Independent Party (UNIP) days, there was only one price for fertiliser and it was subsidised.
Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, UNIP were told by the World Bank not to subsidise agriculture, but they were scared and subsidised fertiliser because it was a UNIP aspect. It was the same with MMD. When they came into power, they closed co-operatives because they believed that anything to do with co-operatives was UNIP, and yet the co-operatives were the engines of development in the rural areas. You only woke up after you closed the co-operatives, and now there is a Permanent Secretary in Charge of Co-operatives.
Mrs Musokotwane: Shemuna!
Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, every year, Mr Sikatana, when he was here, used to say there was going to be an audit of co-operatives and registration of farmers. It has been eight years now and we are still registering farmers. Mr Sikatana even talked about winter maize.
Hon. Opposition Member: He was outside.
Mr Muntanga: There is no more winter maize now. What is your policy that will sustain this development? If you want to bring back co-operatives, can you have a proper audit of the co-operative movement as an engine of development and the farmers will work.
Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge the Government that this K100 billion for the FRA is not enough. What the FRA will do is that they are going to buy maize and sell it to make more money.
Madam Chairperson, your Government has not even decided how much maize they want to hold as food reserve at one time. Do you want to hold food reserve for three, six, ten months or one year? If you do, how much money have you allocate to hoard that maize? The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should look at that. This Government should decide the timeframe for food reserve. If it will be for ten months, then there should be money for ten months.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!
Mr Muntanga: And you should know that your money is in such stocks. Three years ago, we asked the Ministry of Justice to bring in legislation so that all the warehousing and receipting should be regularised, and as a farmer I could take my maize to a warehouse. That receipt should be converted into money. If you do not have money, you should work on the warehouse receipt system so that banks can participate. This is where banks will be able to know the value of this maize by holding that receipt. A farmer can advance some money to continue cropping. Why can you not think like that?
Hon. Opposition Members: They have no capacity.
Mr Muntanga: Confusion.
Hon. Opposition Member: Wake up!
Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the foot and mouth disease. The Government said it is able to vaccinate 13,000 cattle.
Mrs Musokotwane: Where?
Mr Muntanga: Somewhere in Mazabuka. The animals which were affected were 89,000, but they vaccinated 13,000.
Hon. Opposition Members: Oh shame!
Mr Muntanga: Please, ask the Permanent Secretary now who is a professor in veterinary medicine, if it makes sense to vaccinate 13,000 out of 89,000 infected animals. Are you doing any good?
Mrs Musokotwane: No.
Mr Muntanga: If you ask the Permanent Secretary he will tell you that is nothing. What should have been done was to vaccinate all the animals. He is telling us that he vaccinated 13,000 animals, and yet the affected animals were 89,000. What are you doing?
Mr Muntanga: I want the new hon. Minister to come back here and tell us the number of animals that were affected. We are unable to vaccinate all of them, but we are looking at a programme which will be able to vaccinate all of them. That is more positive. Not just telling me you vaccinated 13,000, when I know in fact, the animals were over 80,000.
At the moment, the machine that tests samples blood for foot and mouth disease at the Balmoral Research Centre is broken down. When one takes blood samples for testing, results are not given for weeks on end. When the officers at the centre are pressurised to give the results, they say that the machine broke down weeks ago. This shows that we are not serious about the control of animal diseases.
For the first time, I have noted that there is an allocation in the ministry’s budget for the production of vaccines at Balmoral Research Centre for HS, anthrax and other diseases. I feel this is positive, but I am now getting news that the machine for testing foot and mouth disease has broken down. This shows a lack of seriousness and I am very disappointed with this.
Madam Chairperson, we have talked in this House about charging an export tax on cotton. There are several other cash crops such as tobacco. Presently, Malawi has declared that Zambian tobacco will not be processed in that country. So our brothers and sisters in the Eastern Province will have difficulty selling their tobacco. There is a big market for tobacco in this country, but officers at the ministry headquarters only allow the export of this commodity when they have an interest. This way, we are not protecting our industry. If the hon. Minister wants to make money, people exporting raw tobacco should be charged. In Malawi and Zimbabwe, raw tobacco is not allowed to out of the country. Why should Zambia allow this to happen? We want to expand our revenue base, but we are not addressing the critical areas in order to so. Why can we not join forces with our neighbouring countries?
Madam Chairperson, rice is grown in Chama. However, some people are discouraging farmers from growing rice claiming that it has no market in Zambia. There is a lot of rice in the Western and North-Western provinces, but there is no proper marketing for it. I think now I understand why we have people believing that one has not eaten a meal unless they eat nshima. The word ‘food’ is even confusing the FRA. It only regards nshima as food.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: I also agree that we should think of some other name for the agency. Despite being called the Food Reverse Agency, it does not buy any other commodity apart from maize. I went to Mporokoso, but FRA was not even buying beans which were readily available …
Mrs Musokotwane: Because it is not food.
Mr Muntanga: … because it is not food.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: It does not buy sorghum in Chama because it does not think sorghum is food.
Madam Chairperson, the Government is talking about spending K4 billion on seed. We abandoned the Zambia Seed Company (ZAMSEED) which produced the right seed for Zambia with characteristics to withstand local diseases like bore worms and others. The Mt Makulu Research Centre produces MM603 and MM604 seeds which were very good and when planted, they did not easily wither. At the moment, we have all sorts of seeds on the market being imported from Zimbabwe. What is happening is that if a farmer delays in harvesting the maize, it starts withering in the field because the imported seed is prone to bacteria. Why should we allow this to happen?
As regards irrigation and fish restocking, I want to see proper Government policy in addressing these issues. The hon. Minister of ‘Livestock’ keeps claiming that something will be done to improve aquaculture in the country. However, this year’s allocation to this ministry is not enough for it to do any fish restocking. The Government has to look into this issue.
As for livestock restocking, it can be done the way it is done in Kalomo. World Vision Zambia has increased the number of animals in one section of Kalomo from 200 to 600 and people there are able to share those animals properly. Why can we not learn from this example?
Madam Chairperson, if this ministry does not want to listen to us, the Government will continue getting confused because that is how we win votes.
The Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: I thank you, Madam.
The Chairperson: Nobody is getting confused.
Dr Chituwo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to wind up debate on this Vote and I would also like to thank many of the hon. Members of Parliament who have debated and …
The Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progressing reported)
________
The House adjourned at 1918 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 19th March, 2009.