DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 24th March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

 

REPRIMAND OF MR MICHAEL LIWANGA KAINGU, THE HON. MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES, MP,

Mr Speaker: I order you, Hon Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon M. L. Kaingu, MP, to stand in your place.

Mr Kaingu stood in his place.

Mr Speaker: The House may wish to know that on Thursday, 29th January, 2009, the Office of the Speaker received a letter of complaint from the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Regina Musokotwane, MP, on a point of order raised on the Floor of the House on Friday, 28th November, 2008, by the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon M. L. Kaingu, MP.

The letter of complaint from Mrs Musokotwane, MP, read as follows:

“Dear Mr Speaker

Sir, I wish to draw your attention to a point of order raised by Hon. M. Kaingu, MP, for Mwandi in the House on 28th November, 2008, while Hon. R. Muntanga, MP for Kalomo Central was debating on the forceful removal of residents of Sichifulo Game Management Area (GMA) in my constituency by the Director-General of ZAWA.

Hon. M. Kaingu, MP, is quoted telling the House! ‘Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo in order to debate in the manner he is debating without referring to Hon. Musokotwane who asked me to remove the people from the area he is talking about.’

Mr Speaker, I wish to state categorically that I have never told Hon. M. Kaingu to remove any member of my constituency from that land. In fact, I have never been to his office to discuss the issue at hand with him whatsoever.

Hon. M. Kaingu, MP, is very much aware that a week before his removal as Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, I phoned him to seek an appointment for three headmen from the same area who were representing the people that were to be removed from that land. I wanted him as a Minister responsible to listen to their complaint so that he could make an informed decision.

To my knowledge, Hon. M. Kaingu, MP, refused to meet the headmen and has never met them or anyone else ever since our telephone conversation. Sir, I must say I am disappointed that an hon. Member of Parliament, who is supposed to be a senior member of Cabinet, would sink so low as to take advantage of my absence from the House and make such false and malicious allegations against me, especially that on this day I was still in Arusha-Tanzania attending the SADC-PF Plenary.
Mr Speaker, why should Hon. M. Kaingu, MP, choose to malign my name by deliberately peddling falsehoods in the House on the subject he well knows I never discussed with him? Furthermore, why should the hon. Member decide to put a wedge between me and members of my constituency?

Mr Speaker, many years from now, researchers and other people are going to refer to me as an example of a bad Member of Parliament. Hon. M. Kaingu, MP, has never apologised for the falsehoods he made against me.

Sir, I would like to seek the indulgence of your office to ensure that Hon. M Kaingu, MP, is made to substantiate his false claims which are already injurious to me as a Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency. Sir, I honestly do not expect this type of behaviour from any one of my colleagues in the House. I am deeply disappointed with Hon. M Kaingu, MP.

Sincerely yours,

R. Musokotwane, MP

Katombola Constituency”

Hon. Members may wish to note that, according to the verbatim parliamentary debates for the 28th November, 2008, the following is the point of order which was raised by Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP:

“Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the Hon Member of Parliament for Kalomo in order to debate in the manner he is debating without referring to Hon. Musokotwane who asked me to remove the people from the area he is talking about?

Is he in order to debate the way he is debating without referring to the chiefs who actually asked me to have those people removed? Is he in order?”

In her immediate remarks, the Hon. Madam Deputy Speaker who was in the Chair, stated as follows:

“The point of order is urging the hon. Member to mention who has been involved in the process of removing the people from Sichifulo. The Chair believes that, in fact, the hon. Member is drawing in a lot of people which is not the correct way of doing things. It is important to talk about issues rather than bringing in individuals who will not stand here to defend themselves because they have their own opinions and reasons.”

In line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the Hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon M. L. Kaingu, MP, requesting him to state his side of the story.

In his response, the hon. Minister stated as follows:

“Dear Madam

Thank you for your letter referenced NAS/7/10 Conf. dated February 5, 2009, on the complaint raised by Hon. Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP, Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency on the Point of Order I raised on the Floor of the House on 28th November, 2008.

The verbatim parliamentary record of that debate as reproduced in your letter is factually correct.

The circumstances under which I made that Point of Order is on the fact that, indeed, when I was Deputy Minister, the hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Musokotwane, did, in fact, request the ministry to help her remove the settlers from the Sichifulo Game Management Area.  Moreover, she actually raised a similar request with the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Hon Pande, now Minister of Foreign Affairs.  The hon. Minister can confirm this fact.

I also wish to state that there were several visits that were made to my office and that of the Minister by the chief of the area His Royal Highness Chief Nyawa on the same issue, that is, a request for the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) to help the chiefdom remove the people who had encroached in the Sichifulo Game Management Area.  It is from the two requests that were made by Hon. Musokotwane, the MP of the area, and the chief of the area Chief Nyawa, that the Director General of ZAWA acted to remove the affected persons from the area.

I must attest to the fact that a similar request was made by the chief to the Provincial Minister of the Southern Province. 

These are the facts as I know them.

I, therefore, find it very difficult to offer an apology to Hon. Musokotwane in so far as this matter is concerned since what I have stated above are the facts and not falsehoods as she alleges in her letter to you.

Let me also point out that it is on record that she referred to me as a ‘liar’ on a point of order she had raised regarding this matter. You may recall that she was asked by the Deputy Speaker to withdraw that comment, which she did.  That action alone of calling me a ‘liar’ was in itself unparliamentary.

Let me add, in conclusion, that as long as the hon. Members of Parliament continue to pour ridicule on Cabinet Ministers who are appointed to serve them irrespective of their political affiliation, it becomes very difficult for the Ministers to attend to the problems that arise in their respective constituencies.  This is one typical example.

I submit.

Yours sincerely,

Hon. Michael L Kaingu, MP
Minister of Community Development and Social Services”

Arising from the reference made to Hon. K. Pande, MP, in the letter from Hon M. L. Kaingu, MP, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. K. Pande, MP, requesting him to confirm whether Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP, had made a request to him, when he was Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, to remove the settlers from Sichifulo Game Management Area.

In his reply, Hon. K. Pande, MP, Minister of Foreign Affairs, stated as follows:

“Dear Mrs Mwinga

I wish to acknowledge with thanks receipt of your letter NAS/7/10 Conf. of 17th February, 2009, concerning the captioned subject matter.

In response to your question raised in the last paragraph of the letter under reference, I wish to state that Hon. Regina Musokotwane, MP, did, indeed, …”

 I emphasise Regina because that is the correct pronunciation.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: “… approach me regarding the settlers…”

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! I have to go back.

“In response to your question raised in the last paragraph of the letter under reference, I wish to state that Hon. Regina Musokotwane, MP, did, indeed, approach me regarding the settlers at Sichifulo Game Management Area (GMA), however, she did not make the request on the lines as suggested in the last paragraph of your letter.

I can, however, confirm that I was approached by two (2) royal highness who I met in my office who requested to have the settlers at Sichifulo Game Management Area removed from the area.

Yours in the National Service,

Hon. Kabinga J. Pande, MP
Minister of Foreign Affairs”

Hon Members, the allegation levelled against the Hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP, raised the issue of the privilege of freedom of speech vis-à-vis presenting misleading and false facts to the House.

The House may wish to know that Hon M. L. Kaingu, MP, was allowed to appear before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services, to accord him a chance to make his oral submission on the matter.  The hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services decided to sincerely apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Regina Musokotwane, MP, and she accepted the apology.  However, Mrs R. Musokotwane’s concern was on the verbatim record of the Parliamentary Debates which was reflecting wrong information about her.  The hon. Member requested that the parliamentary record should be corrected to reflect factual information.

I now draw the attention of the House to the following and this is in addition to the authorities I have quoted in this House time and again.

Section 16 of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia provides:

“Any person who before the Assembly or any authorised committee intentionally gives a false answer to any question material to the subject of inquiry which may be put to him during the course of any examination shall be guilty of an offence against Section 104 of the Penal Code.”

In making its resolutions on the matter, the Committee considered the apology by Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP, to Mrs R Musokotwane, MP, and her acceptance of the apology, and Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP’s request to have the parliamentary record corrected. The Committee resolved as follows:

1. The Committee accepted the apology by Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP, to Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP, and commended the courage and honour with which the hon. Minister conducted himself before the Committee.

2. The Committee resolved that the House be informed of Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP’s, apology so as to correct the parliamentary record.

3. The Committee, in considering that there is a duty on every Member not to mislead the House or table before it incorrect information, resolved that the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services should be admonished and be ordered to apologise before the House.
I now take this opportunity to address hon. Members on their duty to provide factual information to the House.

Hon. Members, while freedom of speech and action in the House are said to be unquestioned and free, there are certain restraints on the use of the right within the walls of the House.  Freedom of speech in the House is circumscribed by certain rules of the House.  The rules of the House demand that any information provided to the House must be factual.  It is an offence punishable by the House for any person to willfully mislead the House.

Therefore, hon. Members of the House have a duty to ensure that they carefully verify their information before submitting the same to the House.  This is important because the House, in making decisions, relies on the information submitted by Members.

I now turn to you, Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP, Minister of Community Development and Social Services. 

In accordance with the resolution of the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services, I wish to inform you that your apology to the hon. Member for Katombola Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP, has been accepted both by her and the Committee.  However, as an hon. Member of this House, you have the duty to ensure that the information you provide to this House is factual.  Your action of misleading the House and the public amounted to breach of privilege and contempt of the House.

In line with the Committee’s decision to be lenient in their punishment against you, because of the manner in which you handled the issue, you are hereby admonished for submitting incorrect information to the House. You are advised to be more cautious in your debates, in future, because issues that are raised in the House without facts tend to lower the respect and authority of the House. 

I now order you, Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon. M. L. Kaingu, MP, to apologise to the House and, thereafter resume your seat.

 I thank you.

________

PERSONAL STATEMENT

APOLOGY BY THE MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES (HON. M. L. KAINGU, MP)

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, in accordance with the decision of the House, through the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services, I, Michael Liwanga Kaingu, Minister of Community Development and Social Services, do unreservedly apologise to Mrs Regina Musokotwane, MP, and to this august House, for the misleading remarks in the point of order that I raised in the House on Friday, 28th November, 2008, stating that Mrs Regina Musokotwane, MP, had asked me to remove the people from Sichifulo Game Management Area. I deeply regret these unfortunate remarks.

Mr Speaker, I have attentively followed your guidance and I, accordingly, wish to assure you, Sir, and this august House that I will endeavour to ensure that, in future, the information I give on the Floor of this august House is factual and in conformity with the standard of conduct that this House expects from its hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Once again, it is Regina.

Laughter

______{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

TARRING OF THE KASAMA/LUWINGU ROAD

202. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) how many kilometres were tarred on the Kasama/Luwingu Road in 2008;

(b) how much money was spent on the works at (a) above;

(c) whether Sable Contractors had been retained to do the rest of the job;

(d) what the estimated time-frame to complete the road was; and

(e) how many kilometres would be tarred in 2009.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the contractor managed to carry out and complete, to second seal surfacing level, 14 kilometres during the year ending 31st December, 2008, despite the project being inactive for most part of the year. An expenditure of K19,882,591,569 was incurred on payment to the contractor for the works carried out during the year ending 31st December, 2008.

The previous contract awarded to Messrs Sable Transport Limited was terminated and authority was sought and obtained to negotiate a new contract with the same company. The intended time-frame of the project is eighteen months. The current works commenced on 28th September, 2008. The target is to carry out and complete 30 kilometres of the project road to second seal surfacing level n 2009.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, last year, the Government budgeted K33 billion for works on the Kasama/Luwingu Road and the hon. Minister has informed this House that only K19 billion was spent. Will the hon. Minister explain to the House whether the remaining money will be spent this year?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, it is a requirement that any monies that are not spent in the year must be returned to the Treasury and a request for fresh funds for the following year made. We have done so as reflected in the Yellow Book for this year. Therefore, there is no link between last year’s and this year’s money.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the project under review was initiated in 2001 which is a long time ago and we have heard that only …

Mr Speaker: Order! What is your follow up question?

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, since Sable Transport Limited has totally failed to execute the work according to the expectations of the Government and general public, why did the Government award a fresh contract to the company?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I do not think we submitted in our response that Sable Transport Limited had failed. The Government is only able to pay this contractor to do a certain number of kilometres and when funds are not available, the contractor is not expected to continue working. Therefore, there is no indication at all that the contractor failed us. The Government has been releasing money as and when it is available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the contract for the Kasama-Luwingu Road project between the Government and Sable Transport Limited had a component of advance payment. In view of the statement made sometime last week or the week before on the abolishing of advance payment, could the hon. Minister tell this House how much money the Government has lost through penalties and interest on this particular contract from advance payments.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, it is not possible for me to give those statistics. However, advance payments are only made when a contract starts. Therefore, I do not think that we can pay a contractor any time other than at the beginning of a contract.

Sir, the hon. Deputy Minister said that the initial contract was terminated on account of some conditions contained in it and authority was sought to renegotiate it. It is only after renegotiation that the making of an advance payment could have been possible. However, by the time Sable Transport Limited was getting the new contract, the ban had been effected. Therefore, I need to find out whether Sable Transport Limited received any advance payment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, at the rate of 14 kilometres per year, the estimate by the hon. Minister that it will take eighteen months to complete the project is totally unattainable. Has the hon. Minister or the contractor now come up with new technology that will enable the completion of the remaining works within 18 months?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in our explanation, we indicated that the contractor did 14 kilometres of the road because the contract was not active for most of the year. I have also explained that the problem was compounded by conditionalities in the contract that needed to be looked at as well as the availability of money. Therefore, the 40 kilometres we are talking about in this year’s budget has no relationship with the 14 kilometres that was done last year. It was on account of other reasons that only 14 kilometres was done.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much money was spent per kilometre on this project. Can he also account for the rest of the monies.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, it is difficult for me to account for the funds for this project in the way he is suggesting, but it should be appreciated that it is not only the amount spent per kilometre that has to be accounted for, but also other costs that are related to these contracts. Therefore, I would not like to mislead the House by saying that the figure reflected represents how much was spent per kilometre unless the hon. Member wants a simple calculation whereby the amount spent is divided by the number of kilometres. I would like to tell him that he must consider other expenses associated with the contract as opposed to what is spent on doing a kilometre.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: That is not an answer.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is not right. Hon. Member, do not do that again.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government still owes Sable Contractors some money from the old contract.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, nothing is owed in as far as the old contract is concerned. However, since Sable Contractors has been cleared and given a new contract, it has to be paid for the time that it stopped working on the project and remained idle because of the ban on advance payment. On the other hand, the Government charges penalties on contractors that do not perform to expectations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, the Kasama-Luwingu Road has been a thorn in the flesh for a long time and the cost of tarring a road has now risen to about K5 billion per kilometre. Could the hon. Minister indicate, on the Floor of this House, the time-frame within which this road is going to be completed because the people in that area have suffered for a long time?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I have difficulties appreciating that question because it was clearly stipulated that the contract is expected to run for eighteen months. If that answer is not adequate, I do not know what time-frame the hon. Member is looking for. The Kasama-Luwingu Road is not the only road which the Government has been spending money on and which has taken some time to complete. There are many other roads in places like Chavuma, Mutanda, Choma and Chitongo. All these projects can only be completed when funds are available.

If Parliament appropriates K22 billion for a road project in a year, it does not imply that that is the total cost of the project. Therefore, we try to work within the funds approved by Parliament and are committed to ensuring that this project is concluded within eighteen months, funds permitting. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

LUSAKA CITY DRAINAGE SYSTEM

203. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing whether there were any plans to work on and improve the drainage system throughout the City of Lusaka.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has been assisting Lusaka City Council (LCC) to clear the drainage system in the city. The works involved are desilting the existing drains, construction of cross culverts, where necessary, and cutting new drains. At the moment, the council has received some equipment from the Zambia National Service (ZNS), Zambia Army and the rural roads unit. Among this equipment are two excavators. This equipment has been deployed to dig drains and a substantial amount of work has been done so far.

The current challenges in drainage works for LCC include the following:

(a) indiscriminate disposal of waste in the drains by the residents;

(b) topographic nature of Lusaka, which is generally flat.

(c) illegal construction, resulting in ponding of water; and

(d) lack of equipment for cleaning the underground drains.

Mr Speaker, as stated above, the city council is working in collaboration with other Government agencies to ensure that a number of drains are worked on. Currently, over 500 casual workers have been engaged from various communities to excavate the drains. This is in addition to the equipment I have mentioned above.
Further, the council has been supervising performance contractors that clean the roads in the city. An addendum was prepared on which roads performance contractors have been clearing some out-flow drains. Under this arrangement, a number of out-flow drains have been cleared, leading to a general improvement in the efficiency of the drainage system.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether over and above this short-term programme for opening up drainage systems in view of floods in Lusaka, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and other related government ministries and agencies have any idea whatsoever of coming up with a comprehensive approach to the problem of the drainage system in Lusaka. If so, how does that relate to the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA) plan and when is it to be concluded so that the issue of the drainage system in Lusaka is a matter of the past?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, working in collaboration with LCC, has plans to ensure that the problem of drainage is completely taken care of. In that vein, as a ministry, in this year’s budget, we have set aside K10 billion to assist LCC ensure that the works towards a sustainable drainage system are started.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, could we then take it as a Government assurance that we will no longer require the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in the Office of the Vice-President to step in every time it rains year after year? Is that your assurance, hon. Minister?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are putting in place measures to ensure that this problem is dealt with. Unfortunately, LCC does not seem to be setting aside enough funds to enable us resolve the problem. When you look in its budget for this year, which is over K160 billion, very little has been allocated to the drainage system. As a ministry, as I mentioned, we have set aside K10 billion to assist them. I hope that the hon. Member who asked the question will, through the council, ensure that this problem is given priority.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I would like to have a feel of the sustainable drainage system because I know that K10 billion is not enough.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, admittedly, looking at the size of Lusaka K10 billion is not enough to open up the drains and ensure that the drainage system is adequately covered. However, it is a starting point towards resolving that problem. I am sure that if we set aside funds for this every year and ensure that our engineers do the correct thing to make sure the drainages are properly opened and lined up, the problem will be resolved.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, the storm water drainage system is an integral part of road design and construction. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the ministry has plans to employ qualified drainage engineers for Lusaka.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that the local authority, the city council, has a key role in ensuring these problems are resolved. We shall make sure that the council employs the right people so that when we engage contractors to do the works, they supervise them properly and ensure the works are carried out according to specification.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, LCC generates a lot of money from its ratable properties. Is it not possible for the council to utilise part of the money it generates to address this problem which has been occurring every year?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, it is true that LCC raises a lot of money. In fact, starting this year, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has begun to take interest in this money. This year, we looked at the budget for the council and ensured that all the critical areas were included in it. Next year, we shall also make sure that the budget addresses some of the very important issues which do not seem to be addressed despite the fact that the local authority raises a lot of money.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, it is a known fact that the drainage problem in Lusaka is mainly due to the high ground water level, the water table and under ground regime. Does the hon. Minister have any plans to address this basic and underlying problem of the high water table and underground water regime?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, setting aside funds to ensure that we have proper drainage will resolve the problem that is under discussion. For example, on Cairo Road we have such a good drainage system that even when it rains heavily, the water still flows despite what the hon. Member of Parliament is talking about. Once we address the drainage system problem and ensure that water flows into the drainages, that problem will be resolved.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, we must commend the ministry for setting aside funds for the drainage system, but I would like to find out whether these funds will be used to carry out the exercise in other districts as well.

Mr Speaker: No, the funds are for the drainage system in Lusaka.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there are any concrete arrangements for the construction of a drainage system, particularly in Kanyama. The people of Kanyama have had the lion’s share of the problem of flooding.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, the drainage system in Kanyama concerns the LCC which falls under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. It is the local authority which is supposed to plan drainage systems.

Hon. Opposition Member: And when they fail?

Mr Tetamashimba: The local authority has never given any report to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing on how it intends to deal with the drainage system in Lusaka. This local authority includes the hon. Members of Parliament who have been asking questions on the Floor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, as regards Kanyama, when we had problems of water and cholera in the constituency, I wrote to each hon. Member of Parliament personally asking them to contribute K30 million from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Tetamashimba: ... to pay for water in their constituencies.
Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, the local authorities, through the utility companies, contributed K500 million. None of the hon. Members of Parliament, including the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama, contributed the K30 million.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Tetamashimba: I am grateful to the Government, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, for setting aside K10 billion for Kanyama. K10 billion is not a lot of money, but I believe institutions like the University of Zambia can come to our aid to assist us with plans to deal with the situation in Kanyama. It is very unfortunate that an hon. Member of Parliament who does not want to help his own people can stand here and question the Ministry of Local Government and Housing on drainage.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, there are some areas in Lusaka which have been assessed, in particular the Kalikiliki Dam in Munali Constituency. This dam was assessed in 2003 by the DMMU. At that time, the money required to improve the drainage system from Kalikiliki to Avondale was K234,000. From the money which has been set aside, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if consideration will be given to the decommissioned Kalikiliki Dam since the assessment was done. Is the dam going to be taken into consideration in the disbursement of the K10 billion so that the people of Munali can benefit from it?

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I want to categorically state that the K10 billion will be used in Kanyama.

Sir, sometime back, before all of you became hon. Members of Parliament, LCC commissioned somebody to collect money on its behalf.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mr Tetamashimba: This person, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Tetamashimba: … I am told, raised a lot of money for LCC. I am told that when he was given his percentage, he went to live outside the country.

Sir, I wish to agree with Hon. Kasongo that there is a lot of money in Lusaka. Actually LCC is the richest council. The budget the LCC gave to my ministry was K164 billion. Out of that amount, only K1.4 billion was allocated to the drainage system. Surely, is K1.4 billion out of K164 billion enough when we have a problem of drainage in the city? Further, no funds were allocated to tar the roads in Lusaka which are supposed to be done by the local authority. I know that they were appointed as a road authority and some money is supposed to come from the Road Development Agency (RDA), but how much money did they allocate towards the roads? Nothing.

The leaders in the local authority and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing must work as a team. I would have been very happy if this question had been asked by hon. Members of Parliament from other constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Tetamashimba: However, for it to come from an hon. Member of Parliament in Lusaka where they are failing to contribute money for drainage is very unfortunate.
Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether apart from the provision for drainage in Lusaka which may appear to be …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I did not wish to disturb the very serious question being raised on the Floor of the House, but I stand to raise a very serious point of order that borders on the conduct of hon. Members of this august House.

Mr Speaker, last Friday, a division was called in this House and subsequently hon. Members voted. Is it in order for hon. Members of this House to airlift an hon. Member of Parliament of the House who would like to abstain and carry him out to the lobby to vote? This happened to the hon. Member for Kankoyo in full view of some hon. Members and whips from the opposition.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, is that not promoting hooliganism in the House and an infringement of the hon. Member’s right to abstain? I need your serious ruling on this matter as this habit, if adopted, will reduce the dignity of this House. You have guided on this matter before and one case was that of Hon. Chola who had an accident in here and was beaten below the belt.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The point of order raised by the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President has, indeed, been ruled on by the Chair and the Chair has given guidance on it many times. There are two issues here.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Firstly, it is an offence to compel any hon. Member to vote in a manner that hon. Member does not wish to.

Secondly, what is relevant now is that points of order must be raised immediately the event takes place. I cannot imagine that after the division which led to the vote, the House melted away from there and went home. The hon. Members might have come back into this House to listen to the outcome of the vote. That was the right time for the point of order to have been raised.

We have guided before that points of order must be timely. In order to be timely, hon. Members must pay attention to the happenings around them. The Chair, therefore, cannot go back to things said to have taken place last Friday. I do not even know whether there are witnesses who saw that airlifting.

Hon. MMD Members: There are.

Mr Speaker: Maybe there are. However, I do not know whether the hon. Member of Parliament voted forcibly. If that hon. Member was forced to vote, he should have complained. The hon. Member did not have to say yes.

 Laughter

Mr Speaker: In fact, it may have been true that the hon. Member was forced to vote.
Laughter

Mr Speaker: I will not allow that. The hon. Member was asking a follow up question.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Chimbaka: I thank you Mr Speaker. My question was that besides the provision of drainage systems in shanty compounds in Lusaka, …

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. I am alive to the fact that you have just guided that points of order must be timely. However, what transpired on Friday was that immediately the results were announced, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: … the house adjourned.

Mr Speaker: Order! I have already ruled. Do not go back to Friday. The ruling has been made. I emphasise that I do not believe the hon. Members melted away immediately after voting. They must have come back here.

 The hon. Member for Bahati may continue.

Mr Kambwili stood up.

Mr Speaker: Order! Take your seat. You want to create problems for yourself? Be safe. Stay safe in this House.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Bahati may continue.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, besides the provision of drainage systems in the shanty compounds in Lusaka, which may not be the solution, has the Government ever contemplated finding a lasting solution which may even include the resettlement of the people in the shanty compounds?

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, let me categorically state that the drainage systems and the identification of drainage systems that need attention in Lusaka is the prerogative of the city council. As the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, we only come in when a local authority feels that the project it wants to undertake is bigger than what it can do. Therefore, the question that has been asked by the hon. Member of Parliament is due to the direct failure of the LCC, …

Mr Lubinda: Is it self funding?

Mr Tetamashimba: … which includes the councillors.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

___________{mospagebreak}

BILLS

SECOND READING

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Someone is courting trouble around here.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Bill before this House is principally seeking to revise the rate of customs and excise duty payable on certain products and to harmonise and simplify customs procedures in order to align them with accepted international standards.

Sir, in line with the Government’s policy objective of diversification and enhancing competitiveness, the Government has proposed the removal of customs duty rates on equipment and machinery used in manufacturing, agriculture and construction sectors.

As this august House may be aware, these sectors have experienced massive competition from the region over the years. As a result, companies have folded up and jobs have been lost while on the other hand, potential investors in the sectors have lost confidence due to the high cost of doing business in the country.

 Sir, the other proposed changes to the Customs and Excise Act are meant to harmonise and simplify customs procedures in order to align them with accepted intentional customs and trade practices. They are also aimed at updating, clarifying and strengthening the law for better and effective administration.

Sir, this Bill is straightforward and I commend it to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, allow me from the outset to state that it has become clear over the years that one of the most important stimulants of sustainable economic growth and meaningful employment is the growth of the local manufacturing sector.

Sir, your Committee are alive to the fact that taxes on imports can be used not only to raise revenue, but to protect domestic production. In this regard, it is disappointing that this Bill proposes to amend the Customs and Excise Act almost exclusively for the purpose of offering incentives, essentially to foreign dominated sectors such as the Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs), mining and importers while very little attention has been paid to local manufacturing. In fact, the only fiscal incentives offered to local manufacturers appear to be piece-meal and not based on any strategic long-term economic considerations. For example, the reduction of duty on vegetable oil, packaging material and gypsum, all of which have been locally produced before and can still be locally produced if appropriate incentives are given to manufactures, suggests that the Government is not keen to support local manufacturers. On the contrary, it suggests a bias towards imports based on executive lobbying by interested importers to the detriment of local manufacturing.

In view of these observations, your Committee wish to echo the call made by the Republican President during the opening of the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly to diversify the Zambian economy and implore the Government to implement this important economic policy by giving support to the local manufacturing sector.

Certainly, it does not augur well for our declared intention to grow the local manufacturing sector in an effort to diversify the economy.

Sir, your Committee hope that their recommendation to review the proposed measures in this Bill will be well taken and acted upon promptly.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on your Committee’s report. I just want to clarify a few points.

Sir, contrary to what has been said that attention is being paid to foreign investors, that is far from the truth. Hon. Members of this House must remember that the incentives that are given each year are cumulative. If we look at the past few years, we will discover that on each occasion, incentives had been given and these applied to everybody.

Sir, I also need to make a clarification regarding vegetable oils and gypsum. In the past few years, we have had a situation where vegetable oils from the Common Market for Eastern and Southern African (COMESA) area, particularly Kenya, enter this country duty free. These vegetable oils are mostly imported from Malaysia. When they enter Kenya and other countries, they are refined. When imported into Zambia as finished products, they come in duty free because of that COMESA arrangement.

Mr Speaker, it so happens that there are some companies which produce vegetable oils in this country. At the moment, there are not enough raw materials to produce vegetable oils in Zambia. Therefore, each time these companies try to import raw materials for the manufacture of vegetable oils, they have to pay duty on the raw materials. Clearly, this is a situation of unfair trade to the advantage of foreign producers of vegetable oils from the COMESA area at the expense of local producers. As a result, jobs have been lost.

Sir, we cannot allow jobs to be lost while waiting until Zambia has the capacity to produce raw materials. Therefore, the measure that has been taken is a very good one in order to protect the jobs in Zambia. As and when raw materials become available, like when the investment that the Government is now encouraging to produce palm oil in the country on a 30,000 hectare plantation takes off, the industry will no longer be disadvantaged.

Mr Speaker, with regard to gypsum, the only producer of gypsum known to this Government is the one that uses it to make chalk which is used for writing on blackboards. The quantities produced are very small, but through the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU), we were approached, as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and told that this material was needed for liming the fields. Since there is not enough of it being produced in the country, they requested that it be allowed to come into the country duty free. I must emphasise that this recommendation was made by the ZNFU and there was no opposition from anyone in the country because cross-consultations are normally conducted. If an investor, whether Zambian or foreign, produces enough gypsum at Lochinvar, because tax measures are never cast in concrete, at that point, the measures can be reversed. For now, not enough of this substance is being produced for liming. Therefore, we have allowed it to come in duty free so that lime can be put in our fields. I thought I should make those clarifications.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, the Bill before the House is mainly seeking to strengthen the Value Added Tax Act with respect to tax administration for goods and minimum taxable value scheme. These are goods which have long distribution chains and are largely traded in the informal sector.

Mr Speaker, the minimum taxable values schedule prescribes the retail price of selected goods at which they must be sold. This form of VAT administration minimises revenue leakages and administrative costs.

Sir, the Bill also proposes to provide for registered business enterprises to maintain business records in English. Currently, the law does not compel suppliers and traders to maintain books of accounts and records in English even though the official language of communication in Zambia is English. As a result, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) has encountered situations where foreign businesses have resorted to keeping their records in unofficial foreign languages. This has resulted in tax audits taking, unnecessarily, long as they have to send them for interpretation. This may lack precision and accuracy and, therefore, could result in revenue loss to the Government. The proposed amendments will, therefore, facilitate tax audits.

Mr Speaker, other proposals in the Bill include the extension of the period in which business records must be kept from five to six years in line with the Income Tax Act. This amendment will enable ZRA access such documents for purposes of using them in post-audits or other circumstances where they may require them.

Sir, other proposed changes in the Value Added Tax Act are  meant to simplify it so as to update, clarify and strengthen the law for better and effective administration. This Bill is straightforward and I commend it to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Sir, your Committee feel that this is another area where the Government needs to show support for local entrepreneurship. There has been a constant call by the Zambian business community for the Government to reduce the rate of VAT in order to bring it in line with the rest of the region.

Your Committee strongly recommend that the Government undertakes such a review as soon as possible, even using gradual reductions over a period of about five years.

Mr Speaker, concern has also been raised that the twenty-one day period given for payment of VAT is too short and has resulted in cash flow problems for many businesses as they are required to pay the VAT within this period even though they may not have actually, received payment for the transaction in question. This compels such entrepreneurs to borrow from financial institutions at very high cost, which increases their operational costs. It is, therefore, critical that this issue be expeditiously revisited by the Government extending the VAT payment period to at least sixty days. Your Committee are hopeful that the Government will respond positively to this appeal from the business community. 
I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I wish to take note of the concerns raised by the Committee on Estimates. Let me just respond briefly.

Sir, regarding the recommendation to gradually reduce the VAT over time, I wish to inform this House that this is the intention of the Government. The House will recall that when VAT was introduced in 1995, the standard rate was 20 per cent. In 1997, the Government reduced the rate from 20 per cent to 17.5 per cent. This was followed by another reduction just last year from 17.5 per cent to 16 per cent.

Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, my Government’s view that we need to evaluate the impact that the reduction of the VAT rate in 2008 has had on the economy before another adjustment can be considered.

Sir, regarding the recommendation to extend the period given for the payment of VAT from twenty-one days, I am of the view that the current period is sufficient for companies that have been operating for sometime as they are supposed to have continuous payments for previous credit sales. If the period was to be extended from the current twenty-one days to sixty days, then the Government would be collecting revenue intermittently, thereby disrupting the smooth running of the economy. It would also entail that input tax refunds can only be processed after sixty days. This would create serious cash flow difficulties, particularly for companies that require this money urgently.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

THE PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Bill before the House is seeking to revise the provisions that relate to the valuation of shares for property transfer tax purposes. In completing property transfer tax, interest on related party loans used in the purchase of shares is included in determining the value of shares even when the transactions are not done at arm’s length. The proposal is to exclude interest accrued on related party loans when determining the value of shares and give powers to the Commissioner General to revalue the shares in accordance with the provisions of the theme capitalisation for purposes of property transfer tax.

Sir, this Bill is straightforward and I commend it to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, your Committee strongly support the proposed amendment as it seeks to make the valuation of shares in related party transactions more objective so as to reduce the possibility of tax evasion.

Sir, finally, allow me to appeal to the hon. Members to take time to read through your Committee’s report for more detailed information on the issues deliberated by your Committee.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank your Committee and the House for their support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

THE ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the objective of this Bill is to amend the Zambia Development Agency Act so as to make provisions for the Minister responsible for commerce, trade and industry to declare an area an industrial park and also provide for tax incentives on machinery or equipment for developers of and investors in an industrial park. The Bill also intends to give powers to the Minister responsible for commerce, trade and industry to make regulations for the purposes of developing and operating an industrial park.

Sir, this Bill is straightforward and I commend it to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, the purpose of the tax concessions offered to investors in the MFEZs and industrial parks have been stated to be the expansion of Zambia’s industrial base and to increase the competitive edge of Zambian companies in the Southern African Region.

Sir, importantly, though, it is clear that the Government has decided to develop manufacturing on the basis of MFEZs and industrial parks whose developers and investors will invariably be foreigners. Very generous tax concessions have been granted to these investors.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are also not convinced that the expected benefits to Zambians of these incentives will be substantial, while the Government will suffer revenue losses through these fiscal incentives. In recognition of the fact that Zambian investors face well known constraints in accessing capital, your Committee recommend that a special lower threshold be established for Zambian investors to enter the MFEZs and that partnerships between foreign investors and local entrepreneurs be made a requirement for entry into MFEZs.

Mr Speaker, let me also state that it is worrying to note that despite the fact that Zambia has a pressing need for increased revenues, the Government has continued to offer tax incentives to foreign companies in a bid to entice foreign  investors to invest in the country. Is the objective merely to attract foreign investors into the country with the sole purpose that they will provide employment to the Zambian people? Are investors not expected to contribute to the development of a strong local entrepreneurship base through joint ventures with local entrepreneurs, or contribute significantly to the revenues of the Republic through payment of various taxes? As a matter of fact, it should be noted that the revenues that Zambia forgoes through these tax incentives are collected by the countries of origin of these investors, and these funds may end up being lent to Zambia as Budget or programme support.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, recommend that the incentive structure as a whole, be critically and holistically reviewed, with the view to minimising the incentives or restricting them to investors who will contribute more to Zambia’s long term goals. Your Committee find it unacceptable that Zambia can continue offering incentives to investors whose only benefit is to offer lowly paid employment to a few Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: It would be important, for example, to evaluate the trade gains that may arise from the MFEZs and industrial parks by analysing the relationship between Zambia’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and the Gross National Product (GNP). The distinction between the two is that GDP is a measure of the value of output generated within the geographic boundaries of Zambia, and GNP measures the income actually earned by Zambian nationals. The distinction is extremely important because to the extent that the export sector or any sector of the economy is foreign-owned and operated, GDP will be much higher than GNP and few of the benefits of trade will actually accrue to the Zambian nationals. It may even be possible for the value of exports to be greater than GNP, meaning that foreign export earnings may exceed the total value of the domestically accrued income.

Further, your Committee are concerned that there is clear discrimination against Zambians who will provide consultancy and management services to operators in the MFEZs. They find it unacceptable that the Government sees the need to make the cost of such services competitive only if these services are being offered by foreign contractors.  In fact, they reiterate their earlier contention that it is imprudent to allow foreign investors, in this case contractors, to externalise all their earnings tax free, only to go and seek donor support from their countries of origin, who would have collected taxes on the same money earned in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, your Committee emphasise that with this kind of approach, Zambia will never be able to earn enough to sustain her Budget and will perpetually remain a begging nation. Your Committee, therefore, stress the need to review the proposal to exempt only foreign contractors from payment of withholding tax on consultancy and management fees with a view to extending it to Zambian contractors as well.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are also worried that the MFEZs will merely turn out to be foreign-dominated manufacturing enclaves with Zambians being employed only as lowly paid labourers. There is also the need to guard against the practice of transfer pricing. However, your Committee doubt whether measures to curb this practice will be successful given the limited capacity of Zambian law enforcement agencies, particularly ZRA.

Mr Speaker, with these comments and suggestions, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, before thanking the hon. Members for their support, I would like to take this opportunity to clarify a few issues, the first being the wrong notion that these incentives are only for foreign investors. This is not true. In all the incentives that we have provided, there is nowhere where it says that foreigners will have an advantage over Zambians.

There may be a provision that the Committee may have misunderstood. This is on the reverse VAT. The reason foreigners have been indicated is that currently, they are the ones who pay those taxes. Otherwise, the attempt is to create equality and not discriminate against the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, the Committee also talked about making joint ventures a condition for moving in the industrial parks and MFEZs.  Each time we talk to investors about the need to invest in Zambia, we encourage them to partner with Zambians. In fact, the truth of the matter is that, when they come here, the first thing they ask for are Zambian partners they can work with. It would, however, be a wrong approach to use force to encourage partnerships between Zambians and foreigners. We can only encourage and help those who wish to establish partnerships. It would be wrong to set a condition that anyone who comes here must partner with a Zambian. There are very few countries that I know of which have successfully implemented development programmes using that approach.

Mr Speaker, I am surprised about the general negative attitude towards these industrial parks and MFEZs. I am surprised because if you look around the modern world today at countries that have made tremendous advancement in a very short period of time, like within thirty years, for instance, the Asian Tigers, China and India, these countries have leapfrogged from where they used to be to being major economic players in the world. How did they achieve this? I think that this is a question that many of the hon. Members on your left seem to have completely lost out on.

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

Dr Musokotwane:  I do not know whether it is because as we travel and see these countries, we never take time to ask them how they got to where they are within a very short period of time or whether it is because some of us are from the 1950s and 1960s and do not follow the current trends. The truth of the matter, however, is that if you go into an electronic shop and buy a laptop, desktop, camera or photocopier and check where the item was manufactured, you will find that the company that manufactured the item is Motorola, an American company, but the label will say made in China, Taiwan or Indonesia.

Therefore, if we have a situation where foreign multi-national companies went to other countries and developed the citizens of those countries by enabling them produce first class technology items, why do we think that it is wrong for us in Zambia? This is a situation that I find very strange. As I said earlier, we travel and see these things and admire them, but when we want to have them introduced here in Zambia so that companies that are specialised in technology can produce these items here, our colleagues on your left say no. I do not understand this and I do not seem to really understand your views about development in the modern world.

Mr Speaker, as far as this Government is concerned, we are very clear about being part of the modern world. We are going to move in this direction so that the young people of this country, who are suffering from joblessness, can find jobs.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

______{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 33/04 − (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry − Industry Department − K22,700,254,694).

(Consideration resumed)

The Deputy Chairperson: When business was suspended yesterday, the House was considering the individual item Vote 33/04 − Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry − Industry Department − K22,700,254,694 and Dr Scott was asking a question. However, he is not in the House.

Vote 33/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

VOTE 78 − (Zambia Security Intelligence Services − Office of the President − K213,135, 981,504).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Zambia Security Intelligence Services (ZSIS) for this year, 2009. In doing so, allow me to remind this august House that ZSIS is established by Act No. 14 of 1998. By this Act, ZSIS is responsible for the security of the Republic of Zambia and its people and is, therefore, charged with the task of being the principal advisor to the Government on matters of security.

This august House may wish to know that by this legal mandate, the service is a national institution which is strategic to Zambia’s security. It is, therefore, important that we give this institution the necessary support it deserves to enable it fulfill its constitutional mandate.

Mr Chairperson, may I mention that the peace we are enjoying today as a nation, is not by accident, but through the tireless efforts made by ZSIS and other Government security institutions with the support of the people of Zambia. We need to appreciate that security is a costly, but priceless commodity and, as such, the House is implored to support this vote.

Mr Chairperson, as we consider the budget for ZSIS for the year 2009, it is important for us to appreciate and take stock of the threats facing our country and, indeed, the challenges lying ahead of ZSIS. We should bear in mind that security is at the core of the well being of every nation. Without security, no personal or national aspirations can be realised.

Sir, our country is firmly on the road to the consolidation of the commendable gains we have attained in the political, socio-economic and other areas of human development, notwithstanding the challenges of the global financial crisis, which has not spared us as part of this global village.

Mr Chairperson, may I now draw the attention of this august House to the proposed budget for ZSIS for this year. The estimates for 2009 is K213,135,981,504 while last year’s authorised expenditure was K220,459,716,107 representing a reduction  of 3 per cent from last year’s budget.

The budget estimates include infrastructure development such as the construction of new staff houses, completion of new office blocks and the renovation of old office blocks in various parts of the country. Hon. Members may wish to know that three office blocks in Pemba, Lufwanyama and Chongwe have been completed and handed over to ZSIS.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Office blocks in Senanga, Kazungula, Chadiza, Chama, Mkushi, Isoka and Mporokoso are expected to be completed by March, 2009. It is the appeal of ZSIS that the hon. Members of this august should continue helping to monitor these projects.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to conclude by making a passionate appeal to this august House to consider the proposed budget before us favourably. As I do this, let me also assure this august House that the resources proposed in this year’s budget will be spent prudently for the security and greater good of the people of Zambia.

It is now my honour to present the 2009 Estimates of Expenditure for ZSIS.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): May the peace of the Lord be with this august House.
Laughter

Hon. Members: Hallelujah!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, I have decided to come out of my silence and debate on this very important vote predominantly because the House has considered several votes which are attributed to the development of the country.

I am afraid, Mr Chairperson, to state that all the development programmes that have been passed by this august House may disappear like dust if we do not invest heavily in the security of this nation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, the allocation of K213 billion to ZSIS falls below what is expected by the Government. I say so because trends, elsewhere in the world, are showing that governments have begun to invest heavily in security because of the increased global threats.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: I am happy that His Honour the Vice-President has mentioned in his debate that in this globalised world, security is of critical concern. However, practically, when you look at the Yellow Book, the Government has clearly demonstrated that it is on the wrong side of history and the times. This is because you have to read the signs of the times and act in accordance with the dictates of the times.

Mr Chairperson, ZSIS is number one in the line of all security agencies in the country. Since it is ranked number one in the line of all security agencies in the country, there must be a corresponding increase in the allocation to the service. Other security wings such as the Zambia Army cannot operate effectively and efficiently without intelligence.

Zambia, like any other country, needs actionable intelligence in order to bridge the gap between intelligence, security and law enforcement. If we do not do so, it will be like singing in the wilderness.

Mr Chairperson, in order for me to try and contextualise my debate, let me state that there are several areas in which the ZSIS needs to invest, hence, the need to allocate it more money. One of these areas is sabotage. Sabotage can occur in any part of the country or to any important installation which might be of a security or economic nature. Let me give the example of important installations like the Kariba Dam, …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Dr Chishimba: … and the mines. If enough resources are not invested, …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I do not wish to interrupt this very important debate on this vote or my brother who is debating so well. However, I need your guidance on this vote. I am on record for having said what I am about to say time and again and I wish to repeat it.

Sir, as much as I appreciate the debater placing emphasis on security, we are a landlocked country and need to debate a vote of this nature cautiously. Through you, Mr Chairperson, I would like you to guide us on whether it is in order to go into detail because as much as some information may be factual, disclosing it has the risk of exposing us to people who may be perceived as enemies, such as the example my colleague has given. Therefore, taking into account the sensitivity of this vote, I need your serious ruling on how deep we can go into it.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The question is: How deep can we go into debating this vote? I am sure that hon. Members will be able to exercise their sense of judgement as regards …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

… what can and cannot be said. For example, if we say Mr XY who works for ZSIS did this and that on that day, that would be going a bit too deep. However, I think the vote can be debated in general terms and that is why it is on the Order Paper.

Therefore, as you debate, take that point of order into account regarding going into too much detail. You should skirt around the details.

You may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Long live the Chair!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, in order for ZSIS to secure important installations or infrastructure of social and economic value, it needs more to employ more agents in all these installations. That way, any dangers that might appear in the process, can be brought to the attention of the necessary authorities so that preventative measures are taken. The intelligence service is not like the Zambia Police. I have said before in this House that intelligence operations are not based on taking an action after the fact. The whole idea is to take corrective measures before an event occurs and to do this is not very cheap.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: It is very expensive.

Mr Chairperson, as it has been stated that information is power. We need to be informed as a nation and the Government needs to be informed in order to take appropriate measures to secure this country.

When we talk about security, we are not talking about the security of the President per se, but about the security of each and every Zambian. For example, if we take K213,135,981,504 and spread it across the 12 million Zambians, the allocation in terms of security cover is just too small. This is at a time when Zambia has liberalised her economy and so many people are coming into the country some of whom may come in under the guise of investors. When they come into the country, they embark on different activities to sabotage this Republic, especially that we are a landlocked country. Therefore, there is need to invest in security more.

Mr Chairperson, another aspect that I would like to talk about is espionage. I have mentioned that there are people who may come into this country as investors, but then we may not know what other things they are looking for. For example, if you went to some typical rural areas, you would find some people from other countries who have come in as volunteers. We do not know what they are doing on the ground. Therefore, this country is exposing itself. Zambia has become naked. If we are to identify exactly what those people are doing, there is need to ensure that ZSIS is able to recruit agents in all the local and international organisations and to do so is not cheap.

Some organisations pay their employees thousands of dollars and our organisation has been allocated such a small amount of money. As a result, what goes into operations is very small.

Sir, I have looked at the budget and K36 billion has been allocated to operations, and yet we have operations at national, provincial and district levels. By the time we reach the district where most of the activities to secure this nation are taking place, you will find that what is probably allocated per month is less than K100 million. What security can you talk about from that amount? In the end, the officers will just be found patronising taverns and one wonders what kind of information will be obtained from there. These officers, as I said, are not able to reach important strategic places so that they are able to influence action at policy level.  At the end of the day, whatever information is obtained or intelligence reports are compiled, are meant to advise the Government of the day.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to put it on record that two weeks ago, I raised this issue with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and His Honour the Vice-President. I wrote them a detailed note requesting the Government to increase the allocation to about K150 billion. You have reduced the allocation to this vote by 3 per cent and yet most of the equipment to be used costs millions of US dollars. Therefore, this allocation, in my opinion, is not adequate.

Mr Chairperson, we have subversion.  Subversion is not necessarily about attempts to topple the Government of the day. There will be need to ensure that more agents are recruited in all the defence wings of the Republic to prevent such actions, especially in this crucial year. Zambia, like other countries, is going through a very difficult time. What you see happening around simply points to the fact that the security of this nation is at a point where if we do not invest heavily in it, we may just lose the peace which we are currently enjoying in this country.

Mr Chairperson, as regards subversion, because ZSIS is not able to recruit enough agents in Government departments, information is leaking. How can the Government operate effectively when information which does not need to be digested by outsiders is leaked at any time?

Mr Chairperson, there are things which will happen at State House or elsewhere today. You do not need to pay anybody to get that information. Just go on the streets and you will get it. Something that happened in the morning is news on the streets by midday. This just confirms that our security system has broken down because of a meagre allocation to this vote.

Mr Chairperson, in this world of computerisation, everything is now computerised. Because of the advancement in information technology, methods of attack have also improved. A terrorist, for instance, does not need to go into a cosy building to attack because he/she can attack from a garbage heap. They will just get a laptop and attack. The example I am giving is cyber terrorism.

Mr Chairperson, a cyber terrorist is one who is advanced in information technology and can easily log on to a Zambian Website or into any important Government department and put a virus there and the entire information system will break down. Today, we have another important threat which is viral terrorism. There are some people who are coming into this country. Some of them come in as investors and do not care whether the health of the Zambian is secured. They grow chickens in less than one week and sell them on the streets. They feed these chickens on some chemicals and within a week the chickens are ready to be sold on the street.

Mr Chairperson, if, for instance, the effect of that chemical lasts for a year, if you eat the chicken, the chemical will continue reacting in your body and in the process we will have an outbreak of cancer in this country. Therefore, our people are silently being killed whilst we watch. Why? It is because this organisation does not have the expertise and has not been given enough resources to monitor this. They need to employ chemical engineers. With the allocation in the Yellow Book, which biologist will agree to be employed and get the salary of a civil servant? They will not agree. Which chemical engineer will accept to be employed by this organisation when that person knows that in the private sector, he or she will get more money?

Mr Chairperson, this country cannot afford to be like a cup. As Kapwepwe once said, you cannot be like a cup because when you put something hot into a cup, it will not complain; if you put something cold, it will not complain; if you put urine in it, it will still not complain because it is open. Our country cannot open herself like that. Therefore, under the present circumstances, there is need to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Dr Chishimba, I am not sure whether you quoted the late Kapwepwe correctly. Did he talk about urine in a cup or are just adding to what he said?

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: I will withdraw the word ‘urine’ and maintain hot or cold water.

Mr Chairperson, there is need to secure the lives of our people by ensuring that we give this organisation more money because K213 billion is not adequate.

Mr Chairperson, there is also nuclear terrorism. I believe that Zambia has some uranium deposits. Some investors will come under the guise of mining copper, for instance. We may not know what they are doing outside that. In the event that some powerful nations discover that Zambia has not been able to uncover that, they will attack Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I will give an example of the Mumbai attacks on the Gods chosen people, the Jews. Those terrorists came from Pakistan. India held that Pakistan was aware of the attacks because they never shared the intelligence information with India. In fact, this is still an on-going and hot issue. India wants to attack Pakistan. Therefore, Zambia’s failure to monitor what is happening in the country effectively puts the entire nation at risk because when these powerful nations begin to attack, they will not say who did what. They will just target Zambia. When they begin to drop bombs on us, it will be our people who will die, hence, the need to invest more in this vote.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has reached a stage where this organisation must graduate from the days of the special branch. The State Security Act was enacted at a time when Zambia faced several threats. Today, we face new threats and there is, therefore, need to invest more in order to confront the new threats we face. We need to graduate from a situation where political dissidents are silenced through trumped up charges. We need to invest in what matters.

Mr Chairperson, it is not enough for the Government to state that it attaches great importance to security when its actions, as seen by what has been allocated to the institution, shows something different. Let me conclude by stating that security in Zambia is a lone woman on the street who has been raped; security in Zambia is a pregnant woman who did not give birth; security in Zambia is an ethnic violence that did not explode; and security in Zambia is a book which was not read, therefore, capable of being revived. Today, we can chose to rise above what is dividing us and be able to agree that we need to invest in the security of this nation…

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: … because if we do not do so, there will be nothing to talk about. Security is not a matter to which we can extend gerrymandering; security is about the country. All of us are aspiring to lead and if you want to lead, we should secure this country so that you find it in good order.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, I believe that, that way, my Vice-President and Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Milupi, will be able to find the country intact.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I was not indicating to raise a point of order but to debate. 
Mr Chairperson, ZSIS is a national institution and has nothing to do with the President or the people in power, but is there to protect the whole country. It is from this premise that I wish to add my voice.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Sir, I will agree with the last debater that the money allocated to this vote is insufficient. It has been reduced from K220 billion to K213 billion. Unfortunately, we are all in the same boat, not the PF boat, but the economic boat in which we find ourselves.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: It is because of the size of our economy that even important institutions like the one we are debating now, finds itself in a situation where the amount of money allocated to it is reduced. All we can say is that this institution, because of the critical role it plays in this country, must endeavour to use the little resources that have been allocated to it. This is because the enemy of society has changed. Whereas we may have had the serious cults of yester year, now we have poverty, underdevelopment and so on. Therefore, ZSIS should refocus to ensure that the society is reengineered to focus on proper development.

Mr Chairperson, as the last debater said, the crimes of society have changed significantly. Today, there is electronic crime. Many institutions in Zambia, today, have changed significantly. There is information technology, information systems and automation in all spheres. As a result, it is very difficult to detect those that wish to do us harm through the electronic medium. It is for this reason that some of us wish the institution we are debating could have been given more money so that it can be in a position to detect any harm brought to society using electronics and computer systems, especially any attempts to break into our computer systems. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning has been computerised. Those that want and have the means to do so can cause us tremendous harm.

Mr Chairperson, there is universal, national and all party support for this institution. The reason we have that support is that this institution has significantly changed its outlook on society. Within the region, it is the only intelligence institution whose budget is debated on the Floor of the House. It is the only intelligence institution within the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) region, which reports to committees of the House to defend its actions. We must appreciate this. I think this is development even as we also note that sometimes we can go a bit far. Those who are clever can detect the capability of an intelligence service from the amount of money that is allocated to it. That is why, in some countries, when a budget like this is brought before the House, it is taken to a committee which deliberates in camera. If that committee approves it, that is it. I hope that in future we shall look into some of these issues in order to protect ourselves further as a nation. The Zambian people are mature. When the tunnels were exposed, the vast majority of people in Zambia condemned it because it undermined the security of the country.

Hon. Opposition member:  Yes.

Mr Milupi: Therefore, Mr Chairperson, I rise to support this budget. I wish it was more, but because it is what it is, we have to support it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this vote.

Sir, the Government should be well informed on all that happens in the country all the time and at every level. ZSIS carries out this task of ensuring that the Government is informed all the time from district to national level. This institution plays a vital role in various levels of administration of our country.

Mr Chairperson, it is true that ZSIS also helps ensure stability in the country. Therefore, it is a very well meaning institution which should be supported fully. As far as I am concerned, the Director-General and his staff are doing a commendable job. Therefore, they must be commended. Like one of my colleagues said, ZSIS requires a lot of finances and what is in the Yellow Book is not enough. Therefore, it is important that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning increases the allocation so that these people are able to operate better and help us as a nation.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Sir, these people do not work only for the Government, but for everybody in the country. Whatever they do and whatever advice they give helps create peace and stability in the country. The development we talk about can only come about when there is peace and stability in the country. Therefore, they are playing a pivotal role in this field. Therefore, I want to submit that their budget line should be increased so that they can work better.

Mr Chairperson, I support this vote greatly.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me the opportunity to debate the vote for ZSIS.

Mr Chairperson, in supporting the vote for the intelligence service, I would like to passionately appeal to the Government to depoliticise ZSIS. As my colleagues have indicated, this service is for all Zambians.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not meant to be abused by the Government and political party in power. It is for all of us.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: I have no doubt in my mind that all the parliamentarians in this House support the establishment of the ZSIS. As I support the vote for ZSIS, I have a few points to raise pertaining to the operations of this intelligence service.

Mr Chairperson, we are all aware, as Zambians, that the criminal activities in this country have reached alarming levels. It is my considered view that ZSIS must use its unique services to assist the Zambia Police Force curb crime in this country. We are all aware that we have a very unfortunate situation in this country where military weapons are used to commit heinous crimes. The Government must find a way of establishing the source of these military weapons. It is my considered view that only ZSIS can assist the Government to establish this source. We are all aware that, almost every day, there are reports of aggravated robberies and people being killed by criminals using these military weapons. I would like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President to utilise the services of the ZSIS. I have no doubt in my mind that they can establish the source of these military weapons.

Sir, I also have no doubt in my mind that, of late, criminal syndicates have taken root in Zambia. Most of the criminal activities taking place are by organised syndicates. The country is losing vast sums of money through motor vehicle thefts that are taking place almost everyday without detection of the perpetrators of these crimes. It is very unusual to find and recover a vehicle that has been stolen in Lusaka. These vehicles are not being recovered because there is an organised criminal syndicate operating in Zambia which we have failed to detect. It is, therefore, incumbent upon ZSIS to look into this issue and establish the people behind the criminal syndicates operating in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, as my colleagues have indicated, ZSIS is for all Zambians. It is supposed to serve every political party operating in Zambia. I would like to appeal to the Director-General of ZSIS to ensure that the unfortunate situation that obtained in the 2001 general elections does not recur in this country. The ZSIS was abused by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government.
Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is a fact.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! You were going in the right direction except that at one point you stopped addressing the Chair. The appeal should not be to the Director-General of ZSIS, but rather to the Government specifically. The Director-General of ZSIS should not be brought into the debate.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. His Honour the Vice-President, who happened to be a lawyer representing the Government and MMD at that particular time, is aware of the abuse that occurred during those days through ZSIS. It is a fact that ZSIS and the Zamtrop account were abused.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Mr Mwiimbu! Order! It is one thing for you to make a general appeal that we should not abuse this institution. However, when you say that it is a fact that this institution has been abused, you are then putting the Chair in a difficult situation because I am going to ask you to substantiate that. I think that is not correct. Therefore, speak in general terms.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate your guidance. This is a matter that was in the Supreme Court of Zambia and the records are available for everyone to read and see.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions
 
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am making an earnest appeal for the sake of mother Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not in the interest of the nation for election results to be disputed every time because of various allegations. That is why I am appealing to the Government to leave ZSIS alone. The intelligence service should be allowed to continue operating professionally like it has been doing in certain circumstances. We are all proud of this institution apart from a few situations where there was strain in the process of the operations of our dedicated men and women in this service.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that the intelligence service is reformed. We do not want a situation where the intelligence service is feared by Zambian citizens. We want the intelligence service to work freely with every Zambian. We do not want a situation where people are filled with fear and run away whenever they hear that there is an intelligence officer in their midst.

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: We want every ordinary Zambian to be able to interact with the officers from this institution and assist them with information.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If intelligence officers are feared, they will not achieve their intended goals.

Ms Lundwe interjected.

 Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, that is my earnest appeal to the Government. Even the one making running commentaries is fearful of this service.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I am talking about these issues because I am a patriotic and committed Zambian. I am merely appealing for the sake of all of us. Therefore, as we approve this budget, we should appeal to His Honour the Vice-President, who is representing the Government, …

Major Chizhyuka: He is also a State Counsel.

 Mr Mwiimbu: … and is also a State Counsel, to ensure that this organ serves all of us irrespective of our political affiliation. When I go to my constituency, I must be seen to be interacting with ZSIS officers.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: They should not be seen to fear me and I should not fear them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I may have information which they do not have relating to the safety of this country. Therefore, I would like to appeal to them, through His Honour the Vice-President, to reform so that they work with every Zambian for the sake of this country.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to also appeal to ZSIS, through His Honour the Vice-President, to ensure that the advice it gives to the Government is always upright, prudent and in the interest of the State. It should not be in the interest of an individual, political party or the Government, but the State as this is what it is supposed to be serving.

Finally, I would like to appreciate the service that has been rendered by the gallant and dedicated men and women in ZSIS. I also want to appeal to Hon. Sichilima to appreciate ZSIS.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I will be brief. The Zambia Security Intelligence …

Mr Kambwili stood up and started talking while walking back to his seat.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili, I really want you to understand that there is authority in the House because if you continue disregarding authority like that, I feel helpless. I do not want to give the impression that I am helpless and, therefore, today, I will ask you to leave the House …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: … for the rest of today’s sitting.

Mr Kambwili stood up and left the House.

Interruptions 
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There shall be order.

Mr Sichilima: Long live the Chair!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member may continue.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Mr Chairperson, ZSIS is a Government institution that was created with very good and noble intentions. This institution has a pivotal role to play in the governance of this country. However, I would like to advise the Government that in order to make this service effective, the Government must not undress the service by disclosing its operations to the public.

Mrs Musokotwane: The tunnels.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: When you undress the service, you are essentially telling other services not to trust your service. Once that impression is created, you make it extremely difficult for these people to gather security and intelligence information. Therefore, although you may have custody of some confidential and secret information as a Government, please, do not be careless in handling that information. The success of this service is dependent on the trust and confidence which we Zambians have in it.

Sir, bearing in mind that we are affected by the global economic down turn, I will not debate much on the amount of money that has been allocated to training, although this is an aspect that deserves a lot of money. Intelligence gathering in this era has become sophisticated. You need trained people who can gather financial information; economic intelligence gatherers and these are not easy to come by. These are men and women who must be trained and well trained for that matter. Therefore, the amount that has been allocated to training is a mockery because we need to invest in training.

The other point I what to refer to is the question of a succession plan. The Government must ensure that ZSIS has a well defined succession plan. We know that sometimes, the service loses experienced personnel and when they look around within the service, they cannot find appropriate people to succeed those that are retiring, hence, the need for a very good succession plan.

Sir, I would like to advise that the tendency of stabbing each other in the back should come to an end. The tendency in Zambia is that if somebody is next to you and he proves to be very efficient and effective, then you devise measures aimed at stabbing him so that he does not take over from you eventually. This should be discouraged because you are a service of the people and we want this service to be as effective as it possibly can.

The other point I want to address relates to the leakage of information. When you have a very good security service in place, there should be no leakage of information. However, what is happening is a cause of concern because it is common to find people with confidential information even at markets and one wonders what our security intelligence service is doing. If they were well organised, this would not be happening. My advice is, please, redouble your efforts because we appreciate the service that you are rendering.

Bearing in mind that other people also want to debate, my last point concerns mobility. You cannot have an effective security service if you do not give them sufficient means of mobility. I know that for these people to get information, they have to move fast and efficiently. However, at the rate they are operating now, I do not think they will be able to prevent certain things from happening. Therefore, my appeal is that they deserve all the necessary support so that they can be mobile.

With these few words, I wholeheartedly support the vote for ZSIS.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: I notice that we are all almost saying the same thing about the need to increase the allocation to this vote.  Therefore, I do not know whether the two hon. Members indicating to debate have new points.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, my point is different from the basis that I am a female hon. Member of Parliament and will express a motherly point of view.

Mr Chairperson, let me join my colleagues who have spoken before me in supporting the vote on the Floor of the House. Indeed, it is pleasing to note that both sides of the House agree that this is an institution that is non-partisan and was established to serve all Zambians. Therefore, I want to agree that it is important for the Government to put enough resources in this institution if we are to continue enjoying the peace that we are enjoying in this country.

Mrs Masebo: As a mother, …

Mr Sichilima: How many?

 Mrs Masebo: … I want …

 What do you mean by, “how many”?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You are disturbing her.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, this institution is important. The peace that we are enjoying in Zambia is being taken for granted. For example, if you are a parent and have never lost a child or a member of your immediate family, you do not know how it feels to have a funeral. Therefore, you do not know how it feels to have a funeral until you have one in your house. I think that the men in Zambia have not appreciated the peace we enjoy as a country. As a mother, I would like to remind you that this peace is as a result of institutions such as ZSIS. It is necessary, therefore, that we all support it.
 
Although this is an important institution, it consists of men and women that are human and can make mistakes. Whilst appreciating that this institution is necessary and important, I want to make some suggestions. Sir, we are implementing parliamentary reforms and I heard somebody say that it was not secure for us to debate this institution in the House. It was also said that in some countries such institutions are debated in camera. Maybe, in our reforms, we can look at this aspect because this is not the first time I have heard about it, and I have been in this House for quite a long time. I have heard people say it is not good to debate this institution in the House. I do not know exactly, but if that position is correct, then let us make reforms and debate this institution, maybe, in one of your Committees …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … where the real issues can come out. It is necessary that certain things that may not be right are brought to the attention of those in charge of this institution so that it can be improved. I think it would be better for this institution to be debated in camera or in one of your parliamentary Committees where hon. Members can debate freely on behalf of your House. That way, we would see an improvement in its performance.

Sir, when you are married to a man who earns K500,000.00, you know that you can only buy four or five bags of mealie-meal from that amount. Similarly, with regard to this institution, all the enemy camp needs to do to know its capacity is look at the allocation that has been made to it. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning told us that this Budget is no bigger than that of a university in some country. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, it was not good for you to bring out that information because it is risky for people to know that the Budget for Zambia is the same as that of a college in Illinois in the United States of America.

Mr Chairperson, we are going to have a supplementary budget and if we are serious about security, I hope the Government will consider coming up with a supplementary budget for ZSIS so that we do not put the country at risk. As people have said, the world has modernised and looking at this budget, it is clear that we are not moving with the times.

If you remember, Mr Chairperson, when I debated the vote for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, I said that this was another department which we must take into consideration in light of the technological advancements in the world today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We cannot have the intelligence service of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days, Mr Chairperson, when you were young .

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not bring the Chair into your debate. You want everybody to know that the Chair is UNIP. Come on.

You may continue.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your guidance. The times have changed and, as everybody has said, we are so advanced. When you look at this allocation and have a deeper understanding of issues as our friends outside the country do, then you will realise that we are exposing our weakness with regard to security.

Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to say that the women of Zambia are happy with the security that we have enjoyed and we would like this country to continue being a peaceful nation. Therefore, the institution that brings peace must be supported by all well meaning hon. Members of this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to join other hon. Members of this House who have ably supported this vote.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order, on my right!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, in addition to the words which have been said by the hon. Member for Chasefu, I would like to use this opportunity to appeal to the Government of the day to protect this organisation. That protection must come from the Government of the day before it can be extended to the people of Zambia.

Currently, Mr Chairperson, Zambia has become a laughing stock because we are the only country that has undressed its intelligence service and you should be ashamed of this. Whether you like it or not, there is no way you can expect this organisation to be very transparent. The moment you do that, you weaken the officers who are supposed to protect us. That information must be seen to be privileged and the moment you parade it before external and internal forces for the sake of one ngwee, you destroy the organisation.

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I stopped rising on points of order a long time ago …

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: … and I wish to sincerely apologise to my brother-in-law who is debating very intelligently and nationally.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: My point of order is on the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa. Is he in order to cry in the House instead of celebrating that he has been appointed Deputy Minister?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am looking at the hon. Deputy Minister and Member of Parliament for Liuwa and he is not crying. I do not know why you want him to cry.

The hon. Member for Bangweulu may continue.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was emphasising the importance of protecting our intelligence service and was saying that that protection, first and foremost, should come from the Government of the day.

Sir, there is need for our defence and security personnel to conduct seminars to educate ministers and other leaders that when they are fired by the Head of State, they should not disclose classified information, not even in this House. It is embarrassing. When you are appointed a Cabinet Minister, you take oath that you will defend the system and the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. The moment you are demoted or fired, you begin debating classified information that came to you by virtue of your position as Cabinet Minister.

Hon. Government Ministers: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: It has never happened.

Hon. Government Ministers: Tell them.

Mr Kasongo: By doing that, you are compromising the security of the nation. You stand before the Head of State and take oath proudly. You make a promise to the people of Zambia, through the Head of State, that you will continue to be loyal and that you will not disclose any classified information to strangers. However, you come in this House and begin debating classified information. Who are you appeasing? You will end up destroying your country. I am aware that some of us become emotional when we are fired, but you should know that in that position, you are hired and you can be fired. You should be aware of that psychologically. You should not come here and display your anger simply because you have been demoted or fired. If you do this, then you will allow strangers to have access to classified information. It has never happened anywhere in the world.

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson…

Hon. Government Member: Hammer!

Mr Kasongo: On the question of protection, if you can allow me to emphasise this point, the former Prime Minister of Britain, Mr Tony Blair, was asked a very simple question. “Prime Minister Blair, can you disclose classified information that you are privileged to receive from your intelligence service?” He said, and I would like to be pardoned, “Only a foolish person can do that.” That is what he said.

Mr Sichilima: Bwekeshapo.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think, in all fairness, you are not doing what you are supposed to do. Because he is not a constant offender like the person I sent out for the whole of today, I will send the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President out and he can come back after tea break.

Can the hon. Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office leave the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima left the Chamber.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member for Bangweulu may continue.

Mr Kasongo:  Mr Chairperson, that goes to show how important this institution is. You can see what is now happening because Government ministers and everybody else have allowed this organisation to be undermined. All the officers in your offices are now disclosing classified information to the press. You are the source of that weakness. As the saying goes, follow the leader. We have to review this weakness so that we can begin rebuilding this institution. There is no way you can come to this House and reveal classified information that you are privileged to access when you are a Cabinet or Deputy Minister. You are privileged to be in that position on behalf of the Zambians and they expect strong leadership from all of you. When you are hired, know that you will be fired.

Sir, I would like to acknowledge the importance of this organisation and the credible advice that it always gives to the President. Notable is the advice that it gave to the President on the pressure from Zambians concerning the high price of mealie-meal, in which it urged him to reduce the price. The President took action on this and I am proud of that decision. Similarly, this institution advised the Head of State on the cost of fuel. He conceded and that was good. We would like this institution to continue advising the President along those lines.

Sir, I know that the intelligence system might be aware of the fact that there are so many people fighting the Government of the day from within and outside. They have to advise the President in a manner that will enable him to take decisions on the spot. There are some people, for example, who have called the Head of State a failure. He has not even clocked two years, has he?

Hon. MMD Members: No!

Mr Kasongo: How can you call him a failure? This Budget that we are approving is the first one that will demonstrate whether the Rupiah Banda administration is effective or not. However, some people are already calling him a failure. How can this be?

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: I am aware that some of them are disappointed because when they supported him, they thought he was going to appoint them to positions of influence.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I do not know whether they signed a contract with the Head of State. However, if there was no contract, let them forget. The ZSIS should stand aloof and protect this country from those with artificial ambitions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: They should not even have political parties. I am aware of only two official opposition political parties. These are the PF and UPND. The rest have no leadership.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kasongo: Even those who claim to be political leaders, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.
 
Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating very well on security matters, in order to forget that the person speaking is a leader of a political party, …

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda: … and a highly qualified State Counsel who is better than some political leaders who have nothing to show for their leadership?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That is precisely why you should couch your language in a nice way, Hon. Kasongo. If you do not, you are bound to step on other people’s toes.

Hon. Members: The Chair!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member can continue.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: I am most obliged, Mr Chairperson.

The point I wish to emphasise is that Zambia is faced with a lot of difficulties and some politicians may take advantage of the economic crisis the country is going through to create chaos in the country. The ZSIS should stand up and be counted. We need peace and stability in this country. We need to mesh and protect all the achievements that we have recorded as a country. We cannot sacrifice this peace for the sake of selfish individuals. We know that some of them, as individuals, cannot win elections in their respective areas.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I would like to comment on the position that has been taken by the hon. Member of Parliament for Milupi.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: I am sorry, Mr Chairperson.  I meant Hon. Milupi ...

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Kasongo: Hon. Milupi said that we should consider increasing the budget for this organisation.

Mr Mwenya: Awe!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, some people who do not treasure peace in this country have a perception that this organisation takes pride in wasteful expenditure. There can be no wasteful expenditure when we talk about the maintenance of peace and stability in the country. People must know that members of this organisation must move from one corner of the country to another.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, those who are privileged to have passed through security related ministries will agree with me that to maintain peace and stability, sometimes you need the services of other people. Those people who do not know the importance of peace and stability and the operations of this organisation will always say that there is wasteful expenditure. You cannot talk about wasteful expenditure when our young men and women have to move from Lusaka to Kasempa to find out what is happening in the country.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Sir, for as long as we continue to enjoy peace and stability, we should continue to give them a lot of money. That is the only way they can be motivated to work extra hard.

Sir, Hon. Matongo and I, who now have gray hair, …

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: … have lived in this country without knowing what a bullet sounds like because of the performance of our gallant men and women in the defence and security forces. We should, therefore, continue to support them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, in a nutshell, let us protect the Zambian intelligence system. We should not over expose the operations of this organisation. There is no question of transparency when it comes to the Zambian intelligence system. Even the money that they spend in operations is nothing to talk about.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Members for the thunderous support they have given this vote.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We have taken note of the various suggestions including the following:

(a)  that the budget of the service should be increased; and

(b) that there is need for reform so that budgets such as this one can be debated in camera rather than openly. That is food for thought and also goes for budgets such as that of the Ministry of Defence.

Sir, we appreciate the constructive suggestions and, especially the satisfaction expressed by the hon. Members over the performance of ZSIS. This is our service and it is gratifying to note that the people of Zambia and their representatives in Parliament support this particular service.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 78/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands – K22,956,159,297).

Mr Daka stood up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! For those who are not aware and genuinely want to know, Hon. Daka is the new Minister of Lands.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Daka): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to address this august House and present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Lands in order to outline the programmes estimated for in this year’s budget.

As hon. Members of the House are aware, the Ministry of Lands is responsible for the administration of land in the country. This is a very important factor of production which provides a basis for the economic development of the nation. Primarily, land supports all sectors of the economy such as agriculture, mining, tourism, energy, education, health, construction as well as manufacturing.

Sir, the mission statement for the ministry is: to efficiently, effectively and equitably deliver land, maintain up-to-date land records and provide land information in order to contribute to socio-economic development for the benefit of the Zambian people and the economy.

Mr Chairperson, in line with this mission statement, the goal of the ministry is to decentralise the ministry’s operations to provincial and district levels in order to facilitate easy access to land and land information. This is in accordance with the Government’s policy of taking land delivery services closer to the people in line with the decentralisation plan.

Sir, the Ministry of Lands is responsible for the following functions:

(a) land policy formulation;

(b) land administration;

(c) control of non-urban and non municipal unauthorised settlements through collaboration with local authorities;

(d) land surveys and mapping;

(e) registration of properties through the Lands and Deeds Registry;

(f) revenue collection on behalf of the Government through various charges and fees;

(g) land allocation for all purposes; and

(h) arbitration of land disputes through the Lands Tribunal.

Mr Chairperson, the programmes which are supported in this year’s budget are, therefore, tailored towards fulfilling objectives and intentions which the ministry has set to achieve through its mission statement.

The Ministry of Lands has four departments, namely: lands and deeds, survey, human resource and administration. In addition to the four departments, the ministry is also responsible for the operation of the Lands Tribunal. This entails that funds allocated to the ministry are shared among these four departments to support the undertaking of their programmes.

Sir, in the year 2008, the approved expenditure for the ministry totalled K22.2 billion whilst actual releases to the ministry as at December, 2008, came to K18.9 billion reflecting 85.5 per cent of the budget amount.

Mr Chairperson, I am also pleased to report that in the year 2008, the ministry performed very well with regard to revenue collection. As at 30th December, 2008, the ministry had collected a total of K24.9 billion. This was 92.2 per cent of what was projected at the beginning of the year. This is a commendable performance.

Sir, as a result of the support received from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning during the year 2008, my ministry has been able to implement a number of programmes. The following were the major achievements:

Mr Chairperson, my ministry assisted three councils open up new areas for development through the Land Development Fund administered by the ministry. The fund was established through the 1995 Lands Act and is meant to assist councils open up new areas for development. Under the current guidelines, councils qualify for funding from the ministry for development through the preparation of layout plans and surveys. The number of councils assisted from the fund dropped from sixteen in 2007 to three in 2008 mainly because many councils have not yet taken the importance of the fund in the development of the councils seriously. The ministry will embark on a vigorous awareness campaign of the fund and I, again, appeal to hon. Members of this august House to carry this message to their respective councils.

Sir, my ministry embarked on a land audit exercise countrywide last year. Phase I covered four provinces namely: Central, Copperbelt, Lusaka and Southern. By December, 2008, the ministry had completed auditing Lusaka Province and vital information has since been generated which will be useful for developmental planning. The current situation is that land audits in Southern, Central and Copperbelt provinces have also been completed. The exercise continues this year for the other areas in the country.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has an on-going boundary demarcation programme. This programme received impetus by the directive of the inaugural session in Durban, 2002, of the African Union (AU) Summit. The summit directed that all-member states should conclude the delimitation and reaffirmation of their respective international boundaries by 2012 to avoid disputes and maintain peace.

In 2008, my ministry, in collaboration with the counterpart ministry from Malawi, managed to construct 522 boundary pillars over a distance of 175 kilometres out of a 604 kilometre border stretch between Zambia and Malawi that had hitherto not been physically demarcated.

Sir, in conjunction with our counterpart ministry from Mozambique, we have carried out a sensitisation campaign and reconnaissance surveys along the Zambia-Mozambique common boundary. This exercise will be consolidated by the rebuilding of boundary beacon pillars.

However, my ministry may not be able to meet the 2012 AU target on these borders that Zambia shares with other neighbours due to insufficient resources.

Mr Chairperson, in the year, 2008, the ministry continued to perform its core function of identifying and allocating land to individuals, companies, co-operatives and corporate bodies for residential, farming, commercial, industrial and other uses.

Sir, in the year under review, my ministry launched the customer service centre to attend to customer queries and complaints from the general members of the public.

Mr Chairperson, in order to ensure that land identified in land banks is ready for allocation, my ministry undertook the surveying of these parcels of lands. So far, most of the identified land in the land banks has been surveyed.

Sir, although my ministry managed to implement a number of programmes, a number of challenges were encountered. These included:

(a) Misuse of Land Development Fund by some Councils

Some councils that received funds from the Land Development Fund flouted the regulations applicable to the usage of the funds which resulted in audit queries. In view of this, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to encourage councils in their respective districts to first, apply to my ministry to access these funds and secondly, to ensure that these funds are used for the purpose for which they are intended.

(b) Vandalism of some Pillars along the International Border Areas

This has retarded progress on the demarcation of international boundaries. This calls for intensive sensitisation of people living along the common borders.

(c) Failure to Undertake Aerial Survey

My ministry could not undertake the aerial survey due to inadequate funds to hire an aircraft with specialised equipment to undertake survey missions in various districts.

(d) Capacity Constraints

My ministry encountered capacity constraints in dealing with the increasing demand for land delivery.

Mr Chairperson, the 2009 budgetary allocation to the ministry is K22,956,159,297. From this funding, the ministry intends to implement the following programmes:

Mr Chairperson, following the launch of the ministry’s customer service centre by His Excellency, the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace, in May last year, a New Zambia Land Administration System has been developed and once completed, it will enable the ministry to provide adequate and reliable information to the public. Work on this programme has since commenced with the support of donors. This effort needs to be complemented with a reasonable allocation of resources for the programme to be completed in good time. The functions of the customer service centre will be strengthened and service delivery to the public will also be improved.

Sir, the ministry will, this year, continue with its land advocacy strategy to enlighten stakeholders in land matters of particular importance. This will include the procedures and documents required for one to secure customary or State land and subsequently title deeds.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has plans to procure a printing press in order to print maps of various sizes. Maps are for sale and used for various purposes. Currently, the ministry prints all the maps required by the nation from outside the country, but this is expensive. As a result, the ministry is failing to cope with the current high demand for maps in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with its efforts of collecting revenue for the Treasury from ground rent and other fees. The task will involve correcting wrong data, updating asset registers and vigorously pursuing rent collection through provincial offices.

Sir, my ministry will continue with the exercise of land audits which commenced at the end of 2008. The scope of the works, however, needs to expand to include more provinces. This will be in an effort to generate data and information for various stakeholders to use in their planning programmes.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has for a long time not undertaken aerial photography. This has made it difficult to update and produce new maps. In 2009, the ministry intends to undertake aerial photographs of some selected districts.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with the work of marking international borders in order to make these boundaries visible to the people living along common borders. Clearly, demarcated boundaries between Zambia and her neighbours will enhance harmony and good neighbourliness.

Sir, the ministry will continue with its role of empowering Zambians by availing and allocating land to the people of Zambia so as to increase income generation and reduce poverty levels amongst the Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to facilitate investment and promote the diversification of our economy, my ministry will continue to work with other stakeholder institutions to create land banks and farm blocks.

Mr Chairperson, this august House may wish to note that there is a decline in the overall budgetary allocation this year and the budget which is being presented to this House for my ministry is, therefore, modest, considering the workload of the ministry as a whole and taking into account the need to have an efficient and effective land delivery system for the country.

In conclusion, allow me to request this august House to support my ministry’s budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, in debating this vote, allow me to acknowledge some positive developments at the Ministry of Lands with regard to customer service. In the last two years or so, the Ministry of Lands has improved on its customer service. As hon. Members, we need to acknowledge that.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is said to have vast arable land, but the paradox is that this land is not accessible to most Zambians. As a result, we are not making serious economic …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, Erskine May, Third Edition, Page 250, has the following two sentences on the functions of the Chief Whip, whose office I am raising this point of order on. Unfortunately, he is not in the House, but he is represented by the Deputy Chief Whip who I am sure can communicate the information to him. Erskine May says:

“In carrying out his duties, he is directly responsible to the Prime Minister and Leader of the House. It is also part of his duties to advise the Government on parliamentary business and procedure and to maintain a close liaison with Ministers in regard to parliamentary business which affects their departments. He and the Chief Whip of the largest opposition party constitute the ‘usual channels’ through which consultations are held with other parties and Members about business arrangements and other matters of concern to the House.”

Mr Chairperson, the Chief Whip is certainly aware, both through documents which have come his way and through the fact that it is public knowledge, that there is an interlocutory injunction against one of the people sitting in this House, Mrs Faustina Sinyangwe, which basically prevents her from presenting herself as an hon. Member of Parliament, while we are waiting for the outcome of further proceedings. There is no stay on this interlocutory order. There is an application for a stay which is due to come up on Friday, 27th March, 2009. As things stand and have stood for some days now, this injunction from the High Court exists. According to his functions, the Chief Whip is supposed to use his influence, powers and advisory capacity to establish order, regularity and compliance with the laws of the land in this House. Is he in order to have clearly neglected to carry out his duties in this particular respect?

Mr Chairperson, I would like you to rule on this matter.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is order in the House.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: With regard to Hon. Sinyangwe, Member of Parliament for Matero, it is the understanding of the Chair that when a judgment has been made by a lower court and an appeal has been made to a higher court, the issue remains unresolved.

Hon. PF Members interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is against this background that Hon. Sinyangwe still sits in the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, it is in order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Bweengwa may continue.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the greatest resource endowment that we have, as a country, is land. If this land is not easily accessible to Zambians, then our endowment will not mean anything. We will remain very poor in a country where we are highly endowed with resources because we have no access to the endowment that God has given us.

Mr Chairperson, in Lusaka, on the Copperbelt and most areas that are highly populated, the people have no access to land for small holdings to feed themselves. It is very embarrassing to hear people on the Copperbelt and Lusaka cry for mealie-meal. It is a paradox. 
Hon. Opposition Member: It is a shame.

Mr Hamududu: It is a shame that, in Lusaka, which has so much land, there can be a shortage of mealie-meal, to a point where the issue of mealie-meal becomes political. We have not planned.

I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Lands to consider, and I am sure he will do something about it, making land accessible for farming. Those of us who live in town must drive out of town at weekends and use our hands to produce from the land. There is so much corruption in this country because people just use the pen. We must use our hands and eat from our sweat. If you do not give Zambians land, they will continue stealing and marching on the streets for mealie-meal, as if they cannot produce. I would like to urge you, hon. Minister that we need to provide strong leadership. There is no excuse, in any given year, for this country not to have food. In fact, this country must be debating about how much mealie-meal we have exported and not the price of mealie-meal. That is too cheap. We must not sit here and talk about mealie-meal or the shortage of maize.

Mr Chairperson, the Copperbelt has the best land, better than Southern Province. The miners must lead the diversification process because they have access to money. They must plough that money into the land, where there is genuine wealth. We cannot depend on a ka small job so that when the copper price comes down, all of us begin to cry.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: When the copper price comes down, we must retreat to our land. The hon. Minister of Lands must open up the land on the Copperbelt …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just to correct you, Hon. Hamududu, “ ka small job” is not English.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the counsel. I meant a job with a very small salary. I think that the Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces, where people have better salaries compared to other regions have a potential to diversify into agriculture. The people who work in towns must be availed land so that they join the rest of the country in creating real production. I, therefore, would like to urge the hon. Minister to seriously look at the Copperbelt, Lusaka and other small towns, so that the people have access to land. At weekends, we should see very few people at shopping malls in town. They must drive to their small holdings to grow food in order to secure their families’ and the country’s food security.

Mr Chairperson, the hunger in this country is artificial. One of the problems is the poor access to land by Zambians. I would like to urge this Government to do something about land accessibility.

Mr Chairperson, another issue I wish to raise relates to towns like Lusaka, which are completely enveloped by big farms. In other countries, there are laws to acquire land in national interest with full compensation. You cannot have farms surrounding the town and squeezing us, while people are busy building and rebuilding in shanty compounds where there is poor drainage. The land in Lusaka is basically flat. We have no excuse to say there is no land. What do you mean no land? There are towns, for instance, Windhoek, which are surrounded by mountains. We can say that they have no land because they cannot build on mountains. They have to go beyond the mountains.

However, in this country, we can put a law in place and have full compulsory acquisition of land in national interest in which the owners of the land are fully compensated. The farms around Lusaka must be bought and we must compensate the farmers fully so that we can expand our compounds. There are many Zambians who have money to invest and grow these towns. However, there are no plots. To me, this is a very big paradox. In this country, when someone wants a plot, they cannot find one in Lusaka. Why? We must find a way to expand these towns so that people can access plots as and when they want them.

Mr Chairperson, some people are saying that we should leave Lusaka and go somewhere else. We are saying no, because Lusaka has potential. Let us put a law in place to buy the surrounding farms and compensate the owners. I am not calling for the Zimbabwean style of land acquisition. There is a decent method we can use so that we can have access to land. This is full compensation. Open up Lusaka so that it breathes, otherwise it will be one of the worst cities in this region. People just build and rebuild on top of the sewerage lines in Mtendere and other compounds. All these compounds are as a result of the artificial squeeze by big farms. We want a situation where one unhygienic compound is removed and some space somewhere else is created for it. We have no excuse for not bringing sanity to Lusaka. The hon. Minister of Lands is, therefore, highly challenged. I know that you are the principal agent. The councils have their limitations, but you are the overall authority. Something must be done to expand our towns with regard to the accessibility of land.

Mr Chairperson, I would now like to raise the issue of adding value to land. Many farmers, even in the settlements, are having difficulties getting title deeds. The Ministry of Lands must facilitate the adding of value to land. No matter how big the land is, if it has no title deeds, it has no value.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: I think that one of the greatest tragedies in this country is that land, our biggest resource, has no value.

Hon. Opposition Member: Exactly.

Mr Hamududu: Something must be done to interface between titled and traditional land. I think that our traditional leaders can avail more land to put on title. Otherwise, our people will just die poor because the greatest resource that they have has no value on account of having no title. I think that we must have a serious roll-out of title deeds to the Zambians so that they have security and collateral to borrow money. We lament all the time that Zambians have no collateral. This is artificial.

Mr Chairperson, as I end my debate, I wonder why foreigners own so much land in this country. This is the only country in the SADC region where foreigners are having a feast on our land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: For ten years I lived in a foreign country where you could not even acquire a plot. You cannot chase investors. This is an international practice. Land is only for the nationals. Why are we giving land to foreigners? If you go to Makeni, vast tracts of land are owned by foreigners. Can you own land in China or Somalia? I think that as people in power and leaders at all levels, we must take decisive steps. This is the only country which, eventually, will be owned by foreigners.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: We must bring legislation to this House to bar foreigners from owning land. For the foreigners who acquired land before, and I am talking about generations before, we must reverse a bit, not only a Zambian who applied for a national registration card (NRC). Our children will be slaves in their own country on account of not having land. I, therefore, appeal to the new hon. Minister of Lands and his staff and the MMD Government to sit down and ponder this issue. It is a very serious issue.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Chairperson, I concur with Hon. Hamududu that Zambia consists of two thirds of empty land and only one third is fully occupied, especially, along the line of rail. The empty land that we are talking about is mostly found in rural Zambia under customary tenure.

Mr Chairperson, it is in this regard that the Government must work out a formula to encourage genuine Zambians to move into this empty land and develop it. The proposed land policy, which is still in draft form, will aim at encouraging Zambians to own land, as opposed to the current policy, where land can be accessed by Zambians and non-Zambians, and, in most cases, a chunk of the land is being allocated to foreigners.

Mr Chairperson, the development of our land can only be …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours. {mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, it is very disturbing for the Chair when hon. Members walk around when he/she is on his/her feet. I wish to advise those of you walking around to stop doing so.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was trying to emphasise the importance of adopting the land policy which is still in draft form.

Through you, Sir, I would like the Ministry of Lands to ensure that the policy is adopted as quickly as possible.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I also wanted to touch on the importance of developing the empty land in the rural areas. This can only be achieved if a lot of money is pumped into the Land Development Fund.

Mr Chairperson, the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace, when he addressed the nation in this House, on 11th January, 2008, said:

“Government, through the Land Development Fund, will continue funding various councils throughout the country to enable these councils open up more land for development.”

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the money from ground rent and land allocations which goes into this fund is not enough to develop the rural areas, especially the customary land which I am referring to. By the late President’s Address to this nation, the Land Development Fund needs a lot of money in order for the land in the rural areas to be developed.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Indeed, Chair, as we have witnessed for the past …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I would like to seize the opportunity to give guidance. Mr Kapeya says, “Chair”. When we attend workshops and seminars, one of the things that we learn from our resource persons is that it is not correct to address the Chairperson as “Chair”. I think that we can learn something from these workshops. Therefore, from today onwards, let us use the right terminology “Chairperson or Chairman, but not Chair.” 

The hon. Member for Mpika Central may continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful for your guidance.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: I just want to propound that for the past eighteen years, under the MMD Government, …

Mr Mabenga: Your Government!

Mr Kapeya: … towns along the line of rail have expanded by good houses being built in various localities. However, the expansion has come about by the efforts of individuals and some companies.

Mr Chairperson, what is most disappointing is that in these areas where good houses have been built, especially in Lusaka, in areas like Chalala, Kabwata, Kamwala and other towns like Kapiri-Mposhi in a township called Ndeke, there are no good roads. We need good roads in these areas which have been expanded at a quiet and very pleasing time.

Mr Chairperson, the Commissioner of Lands is busy repossessing land in areas which have not been developed. To most of us, the question that arises is how an individual, a Mr Mwansa Kapeya, can develop a plot given to him without good roads and sewer systems being put in place in these areas by the Government.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, as I said, the Commissioner of Lands is busy repossessing these plots. Where is the fairness? May I request, through you, Mr Chairperson, that the hon. Ministers responsible for Lands and Local Government and Housing visit these areas, which I mentioned earlier where people are putting up good houses, regularly. They should go and see for themselves the situation prevailing in these areas.

Sir, we have been told that the MMD is a Government of laws.

 Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kapeya: Yes, it is not a Government of men. One wonders, however, how this Government of laws collects money for property and land rates from areas where it has failed to provide good roads and other required services.

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Where is the law?

Mr Chairperson, I hope I will not be dubbed malicious when I conclude by saying that this Government of laws obtains money fraudulently.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The purpose of advising those in authority is to convince them to do what you think they should do. However, if you ask for a favour from someone and you begin by calling that person a funny name, he or she will not give you what you are asking for. Therefore, be persuasive rather than what you are saying.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Kapeya: I hope I will not be dubbed malicious when I say that this Government does not collect money genuinely …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kapeya: … from intending developers.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for affording me this opportunity to make a few comments on this vote.

Southern Province is, indeed, short of land. However, the Government has strived to create farming blocks and settlement schemes. At the moment, we have a number of resettlement schemes in Muchila, Masasabi and two in Choma, Kalongwe and Harmon. To our dismay …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Point of order palibawiso, iwe!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. I hope it is on procedure!

Major Chizhyuka: It is procedural, Sir.

The resettlement scheme in Muchila, which the hon. Minister is talking about, is in Namwala Constituency. What is the name of that resettlement scheme? Is the hon. Minister in order to state the name of the resettlement scheme in Muchila without misleading this House? I need your ruling on this serious point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think it is a simple point of order. The hon. Minister has mentioned the name of a place that is found in your constituency, but be mindful that all the constituencies are under the hon. Minister for Southern Province and so, the two of you can work together.

Can the hon. Minister continue.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, I am a very cool debater.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: I have great experience in debate.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Normally, I do not react even when some remarks are directed at me. I am cool.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, a Member of Parliament is like a hunter. A Member of Parliament must debate with compassion and love.

Major Chizhyuka: For his people!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, there is a saying in one of the Bible scriptures 1 Corinthians 13:1 …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!

Mr Munkombwe: It says, “Although I can speak strongly in many tongues, but I have no love, I am nothing more than a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal.”

Hon. Members: Mmh!

Mr Munkombwe: A Member of Parliament must be convincing. A Member of Parliament must be able to influence decisions …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … any time when one stands up and expects threats from that Member of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Can you debate the vote on the Ministry of Lands. Go straight to the point.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, to my dismay, some of the occupants in the settlements like Harmon have turned them into mere charcoal burning settlements. Thus, destroying the purpose for which those settlements were created. Some people have left Masasabi Resettlement Scheme and are now encroaching into the Kafue National Park. For this reason, I would like to appeal to our people, particularly the hon. Members of Parliament, to persuade the people that it is wrong and illegal to go into an area that is designated as a game management area (GMA).

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: It is illegal and we cannot continue to condone illegality in the name of defending our people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Munkombwe: That is not right.

Mr Chairperson, the Kafue National Park is now being threatened. Therefore, we would like to appeal to our people …

Major Chizhyuka: Ulabeja!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, I resist provocation.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is nothing more disappointing to the Chair than giving guidance to hon. Members which they do not heed. It is not good. We do not take pleasure in taking certain action. We really have to be fair by giving each other chance to debate. If you have the opportunity, you will counteract what you think is out of line. However, I take exception to people talking, and loudly for that matter, when somebody is on the Floor.

The hon. Minister can continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, my age restrains me from engaging in comments. I am …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I have already made a ruling on that. Go straight to the subject.

Mr Munkombwe: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, when people say, “We will get you in 2011,” they think that the MMD is sleeping.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: We are not sleeping, but running away.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Yes, we can have divisions or problems, but where do they not have divisions? Where do they not have problems? There are problems in each political party, …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … but the MMD is moving.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Chair is listening very carefully. I thought you were going to come back to the subject, but I have noticed you are deviating. Can you come back to the subject? Let us not talk about …

Mr Munkombwe: Thank you for your guidance, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: The subject is land!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, as regards the shortage of land, …

Major Chizhyuka: Ok!

Mr Munkombwe: … we have to understand that we, the Tongas; the Southerners, are not only in Southern Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: We have spread to many areas such as Lundazi, Mbala and Kaoma. Therefore, when we are debating we should be mindful that we also displace people in other areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: Let us not be narrow-minded. We want to defend issues because we promised people that they would only be moved over our dead bodies, but those people have been moved by the system. We must deal with the law.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I will not be intimidated by any hon. Member of Parliament when executing my duty.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: I am a political survivor!

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I will survive in any situation …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … when executing my duty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: You might solve one land problem in one area because of the different circumstances. I am there, I will be there and I was there.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I have never engaged in bruising people. You can see how cool I am.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Those who give themselves the job of bruising others end up being brutally bruised themselves.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: You do not choose to be everybody’s ombudsman, but choose to negotiate. Let us persuade the Government when dealing with issues because if we do not do that, we will be resisted. There is no two ways about it. If you threaten, you get threatened. An individual cannot continue threatening the majority, including a person of my experience and type because it is harmful.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, it does not help anybody. I recognise that hon. Members of Parliament are elected and they derive more power from the electorate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, I am looking at you very carefully not just because I want to look at you, but because I want to hear your line of argument. You are on course, but, sometimes, you tend to stray for a long time. Sometimes, I let you go off course in the hope that you will come back quickly, but instead you make the going off course the issue. Therefore, can you continue and come back on course.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, if you have read through my record, in my twenty-two years in this House, I have never been sent out or ruled out of order. 
Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No! Hon. Minister, no Chair can accept that. You cannot say that. You see, the Chair gives advice.

Mr Muyanda: Send him out!

The Deputy Chairperson: When you say you have never been ruled out of order, I appreciate it because that is what we want. We do not want you to be ruled out of order, but once you begin saying what you have been saying, you will be ruled out of order. Therefore, I am ruling you out of order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: For the first time you have been ruled out of order and so can you come back on track.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for guiding me. At the Ministry of Lands, we, as the Government, are taking time to give advice regarding parts of some forest reserves which have become irrelevant. I know that in Gwembe, for instance, there is a certain part which has ceased to be relevant. We will advise the Government wherever these exist, but we will not advocate for lawlessness.

Mr Chairperson, it was stated here that I gave evidence to the Sakala Commission. I gave evidence based on tracts of land which belonged to the Rural Development Corporation (RDC). Some of this land was in extent of more or less than 200,000 hectares in Kalomo and about 180,000 hectares in Choma. Some families had over sixteen farms in Mazabuka. That is the land I talked very strongly about, but within the law. I did not advocate that people can settle anywhere and the records are there. The information that was presented to the House was grossly misleading to the people of Zambia. Anyway, they know my contribution. I have been useful and not useless. The opposite of useful is useless. If you are useless, nobody can use you.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I have been useful and that is why all the four Republican Presidents have used me effectively. I will administer land without a threat from anyone. Therefore, those who want to meet me will do so in Kaingu where people are threatening. I have the support of most of the chiefs. I know that hon. Members of Parliament are diligent and honest people and they will help me explain the evil of encroaching.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Those who do not have land have settled elsewhere and have been accepted. Let us not make the lives of those who have gone to settle near Tanzania miserable because of our utterances. Can we guide ourselves because there are people who are being displaced by us. We do not want to be targeted as a tribe of invaders because that is dangerous. We are in Kaoma and elsewhere because we have a shortage of land. Therefore, if I went to Lundazi now, I would find Tonga families that have been accepted there. If I went to Mkushi, Serenje, Mpika and elsewhere, I would find Tonga families there. In fact, in some areas there are places called new Choma and new Monze.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: They are there and we should not make their lives difficult by saying things which will cause them to be resented in the various areas they have settled in. I would like to plead with hon. Members to continue teaching our people properly. I would like to say that none of those hon. Gentlemen is my enemy.
Major Chizhyuka: You are an enemy of the people.

Mr Munkombwe: If it is perceived that I am an enemy of the people, I am not.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just ignore the comments.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, we should maintain our dignity. It is not right that each time you stand to speak, you just make intimidating remarks. People must debate with compassion and love. They should also debate issues and not individuals. How can you call us useless and later come to us and say, “You have a good Vice-President,” when you have lumped him with a group of useless people.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: It is not right and those of us on this Bench should defend whatever is done by us Provincial Ministers.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: We should not bend to people who are useless in our view, but pretend that they have value.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Really all of us here are useful. There is no one who is useless. With that guidance, may the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for your guidance. It does not matter what age you are, you continue learning. Nevertheless, I will follow your advice.

Sir, nobody is useless in politics because even the one you may call useless has nephews, uncles and nieces. All of us are useful. Elected hon. Members of Parliament and councillors are essential in effecting development in the various areas. However, if they turn themselves into everyone’s spokespersons, we become suspicious. You cannot be everybody’s spokesman or supporter. You cannot throw yourself into everything.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Talk about land.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Finally!

Mr Munkombwe: Who says finally?

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: You should also stop provoking those people. That is why you …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister’s time has expired.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for allowing me to …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: … make my comments on the subject at hand. I promise to be within the bounds of the subject matter which is land.

I would like to bring the most recent developments in the People’s Republic of Madagascar to the attention of the House. I would also like to make an apology in advance to whoever might feel offended by some of the remarks that I am going to make. However, it is sincerely not my wish to disturb anyone’s emotions.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Madagascar rose against a legitimately elected Government. One of the reasons the people rose against President Marc Ravalomanana is that he entered into a land deal with a Korean investor.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: A Korean investor and President Marc Ravalomanana signed a land contract in which the Korean investor was going to carry out agricultural activities. The land in question was precisely 1.2 million hectares.

Major Chizhyuka:  Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the people rose against President Marc Ravalomanana of Madagascar and walked him out of State House.

Mr Chairperson, there can never be a Government …

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Sit down, honourable.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. Hon. Nkombo, can you switch off your machine?

Mr Nkombo: I am trying, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to discuss another country which cannot defend itself in this House?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Chilembo: Is it parliamentary to discuss another country in this House?

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me use this point of order as an opportunity, once again, to guide the House. The Chair’s understanding is that the hon. Member is trying to make his case with regard to the issue of land in Zambia. He is trying to use the problems facing Madagascar as a reference point and not necessarily discussing Madagascar. However, because of the point of order that has been raised and the possibility that the people out there or even in Madagascar might misunderstand your line of thought, can you put it in a way that explains the problems we face in Zambia.

UPND Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. I had actually departed from the issue of Madagascar and was at the point of saying there cannot be a Government in the absence of people and land.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: There can never be a Government in the air. There has to be a Government on land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, every Government is formed on the fundamental that these two facets, people and land, exist. Even at domestic level, there are no chiefs where there are no people or land. That is a fact.

Mr Muyanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: It brings me now squarely to Mazabuka, the constituency that I represent.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, this country is faced with difficult problems arising from decisions that are normally made by the people on your right hand side.

UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I have a specific subject to discuss in my few minutes. This is the issue of the human-investment conflict. Regarding human-investment conflict, Mr Chairperson, we have, brand new from the box, redefined the people of Mugoto in Mazabuka Central Constituency.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am happy that on your right hand side, you have Hon. Mulyata, my uncle, Hon. Munkombwe and Hon. Machila over there. At the time of the Albidon Mine investment, I sounded a caution on how they were going to deal with that investment. Today, Hon. Mwale, the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, knows very well that on 27th March, 2009, which is in two days time, Albidon Mine will pack its bags and go leaving only a few individuals to pump water out of that mining investment. 1,500 poor souls have had their lives disturbed, distorted and placed into uncertainty because of the Government not heeding to advice. It was I, not anybody else, who was ridiculed and insulted for trying to be the voice of the people of Mugoto.

Major Chizhyuka: Yes, many of us.

Mr Nkombo: A gallant son of this country, Major Chizhyuka, was admonished by many people for going to hold meetings at Mugoto to try and find a balance.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The fundamental issue, Mr Chairperson, that you and the House, through you, should know now is that the same mining investment, today, has said it does not need the entire 2,100 hectares of land that it took and, therefore, is giving back 50 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, against the backdrop of advice from the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) where only eighteen families were to be displaced by that mining investment, somebody, and that somebody is Hon. Joseph Mulyata, my cousin, decided to go to Mazabuka District Council and tell them …

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Can you keep quiet.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We have the opportunity to ask for points of order, but there comes a point when they can be very distractive. However, because I do not know what you want to say, I will give you the opportunity to raise your point of order.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very important point of order. Are the two hon. Ministers, Hon. Shikapwasha and Hon. Mwale, in order to chew while seated in the Chamber?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: It is that kind of point of order that I think is meant to create a light moment which can be distractive. Why do you look at people chewing in the House?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you see somebody chewing from that angle? Why can you not ignore them?

Can you continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I have a document here which was authored by the ECZ and I will just read one sentence and I will lay it on the Table.

“To the effect that the details of the project descriptive, the mining project lies in His Royal Highness Chief Nalwama’s chiefdom where the village of Chinkomba and Kachenje with the total population of 811 are located, the resettlement action plan will entail relocating about eighteen households only with an average of 6.8 human beings per village.”

Mr Chairperson, if you do a simple calculation, there ought to have been a displacement of only 106 human beings. Alas, somebody went and made a presentation to Mazabuka District Council and made the councillors believe that if these people remained in the mining area, they were going to die. Hon. Mulyata came to Mazabuka District Council and told the councillors and heads of Department of Government that, henceforth, you must stop listening to Opposition Members of Parliament because they are destructive. The suffering of the people in Mugoto …

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised, Hon. Nkombo.

Mr Mulyata: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to use the phrase, “I rarely rise on a point of order,” but I think the hon. Members of this House know that. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka in order to say I went to Mazabuka Council without bringing empirical evidence to lay on the Table when in my lifetime and stay in Southern Province I have not talked to any councillor or anyone else in Mazabuka to persuade them to accept Albidon Mining Company? Can I also add that he should produce empirical evidence otherwise …

Mr Mubika: You will beat him.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: … he will be answerable for what he is saying on the Floor of this House. I need your serious ruling because he is accusing me of something that I never did. I demand that he lays the minutes of that council meeting on the Table.

The Deputy Chairperson: I would prefer that you ask if he is in order rather than asking him to lay documents on the Table.

Mr Mulyata: Is he in order to state something that is not factual when you have advised us many times here not to speculate, but talk on the basis of facts?

The Deputy Chairperson: Okay, I got your point of order. Hon. Members, this is why we advise persons debating to skirt around an issue while making a point. If you had said someone went to advise councillors and Hon. Mulyata raised a point of order to ask if you were in order to say someone, it would be easier for the Chair to protect you because you had not mentioned any names. However, once you begin to mention names, you run into problems. You said that he went to a council meeting and he is now asking you to produce proof that he attended that meeting. Therefore, here I am I literally watching you debate against each other and I think that is not correct. Therefore take his point of order into account and my guidance is that you should avoid mentioning names.

Can you continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful for your guidance. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas Iscariot pointed at Jesus and said, “ He is the one.” That is the one over there (pointing at My Mulyata).

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You see, as Chair, I have several options …

Mr Mulyata: That is being foolish.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister that is not good. I am on my feet and speaking and you are calling somebody foolish. I cannot take that.

Mr Mulyata interjected.

Hon. Government Members: Do not interject.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, that is not correct. Can you keep your cool. If you disobey the Chair’s order, I will take appropriate action. The hon. Member debating is also disobeying the Chair’s ruling. I had advised and by going straight to say that he is the one, you were disobeying the Chair. No Chairperson can allow that and this puts me in a very difficult situation. When I used to be a teacher, I sometimes took punitive action. As such, I will now take punitive action. The debate on this vote is over. Can the hon. Minister wind up debate.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on the budget for the Ministry of Lands. First and foremost, I would like to thank all the hon. Members that have debated on this vote. I would like to also comment on certain issues that have been raised such as foreigners owning land.

The Ministry of Lands works with the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) to allow foreigners obtain land. The title for most of the buildings that we see today is in the name of Zambians who have allowed foreigners to build in their names.

The ministry is very willing to listen to everybody and get suggestions in order to make sure that all the loopholes that have been mentioned are sealed. Ninety-five per cent of the land that we have in Zambia today is owned by traditional rulers.

Mr Mwenya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: That point of order is not allowed.

Can the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Daka: This is why the ministry has taken steps to negotiate with the traditional leaders to create land banks so that land is given on title to farmers or any Zambians that want to develop it. The House may also wish to know that only 15 per cent of the land in Zambia has been surveyed due to lack of resources. The Government is working to ensure that more land is accessible to Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, with these words, I thank you for giving me this opportunity and enabling me make a record of presenting two budgets in the same Budget session.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 85/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTES 90 to 98 – (Office of the President – Provinces: Lusaka – 27,490,712,120, Copperbelt –36,822,901,903, Central – 27,070,174,731, Northern – 35,889,644,765, Western – 28,749,615,883, Eastern – 32,292,905,334, Luapula – 27,863,913,166, North-Western – 29,512,006,951 and Southern – 35,806,012,816).

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We will now begin policy debate on the provinces. As per practice, we will allow three hon. Members from each province to debate. You can speak in any order as long as you keep the record and know that three people per province have spoken.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: We also consult. I heard somebody on my left say something which was correct. His Honour the Vice-President will give the policy statement. After that, we will allow three hon. Members from each province to speak on a particular province. Thereafter, the Provincial Ministers are going to wind up. Can we proceed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present a consolidated policy statement in support of the Estimates of Expenditure for the provinces for the year 2009. 
The main objective of provincial administration is to provide the arena for effective co-ordination, implementation and monitoring of various sector policies and strategies on behalf of line ministries and the central government, in order to ensure the provision of quality services to the people in the provinces.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are consulting too loudly. There is disorder in the House. Hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government, Hon Musosha, if you can please, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Go out!

The Deputy Chairperson: There is disorder, can we have order and listen because if you talk while he is talking, after he has made the policy statement, these are the issues that later on will arise and then you will be saying different things. Can we listen!

Your Honour the Vice-President, you may continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Pursuant to the above objective, the functions of the provincial administration include the following:

(a) ensuring that Government policies are understood and being implemented in the province;

(b) planning and co-ordinating development activities;

(c) mobilising development resources;

(d) monitoring utilisation of resources and execution of district development plans and programmes;

(e) consolidating district development plans into provincial development plans;

(f) carrying out statutory and audit inspections in all districts;

(g) co-ordinating State and traditional ceremonies;

(h) maintaining law and order; and

(i) facilitating the co-ordination of development programmes in order to ensure sustainable development.

Mr Chairperson, arising from the above mandate, hon. Members will appreciate the important role that provincial administration plays in the political, social, cultural and economic development of our country.

A review of the performance for the year 2008 indicates the provincial administration recorded significant achievements …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No. You know, I really shudder to say that we are not doing the right thing. Major Chizhyuka, please, stop that.

May His Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … in many areas such as the following:

Mining/Agriculture

Mining activities on the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces generally registered significant growth in 2008, but have recently suffered serious reversals with the on set of the global financial down turn. Copper production had picked up significantly in 2008. However, this could not be sustained this year due to the on-going global economic recession. The Government, working with the mining companies, has put measures in place to ensure that no further jobs are lost.

As regards agriculture, the House will agree with me that many provinces recorded improved agricultural harvests with the exception of Southern and Western provinces where serious floods had occurred resulting in low crop harvest. The Government is committed to providing improved support services to the agricultural sector, including reviewing the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) and earnestly fighting livestock diseases.

Fishing

In fishing, the Government will also continue supporting the fisheries sector and the fish producing provinces such as Northern, Western, Luapula and Southern provinces. Northern Province, in particular, which produces a third of the country’s fish requirements, last year, produced 28,000 metric tonnes of fish. In the other provinces, fish restocking programmes were carried out successfully.

Infrastructure Development and Maintenance

The Government, during the year under review, carried out infrastructure maintenance and rehabilitation in all the nine provinces. Some of these works will be completed in the course of this year while others will continue. The Government is determined to ensure that infrastructure development and maintenance receives the priority it deserves in order to provide the required access for production in all our provinces.

Social Sectors

Mr Chairperson, in line with the Government’s policy of free basic education, the provincial administration was actively involved in the procurement and distribution of school requisites such as desks and books. Efforts were also made to increase the number of upper basic schools in order to enhance access to high school education.

Sir, the provision of health requisites using poverty reduction funds in order to improve access to quality health services, was also carried out. In the administration of justice, some local courts were rehabilitated throughout the provinces in order to improve the operations of justice delivery institutions and to ensure that justice is quickly dispensed.

Further, the Rural Electrification Programme (REP), through the provision of solar panels and connection to the national grid, was carried out in some schools and health centres in the course of last year.

In terms of local governance, the launch of the Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP) will provide further impetus for local development as decentralisation is implemented.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to state that the above list of achievements is not exhaustive, but rather illustrative in that the provincial administrations over the years have made significant accomplishment which will always benefit from the support of the hon. Members of this House.

This year, 2009, the provinces will continue to pursue various developmental programmes aimed at reducing poverty and satisfying the needs of the communities they serve, including providing timely and reliable agricultural support services such as input supply, crop marketing and the provision of effective agricultural extension services. Fisheries development and livestock production will continue to receive focused attention while the provinces will ensure that infrastructure rehabilitation and maintenance are closely monitored.
Provincial administrations will also continue to provide an enabling environment for private sector development, including mining, manufacturing, timber processing and other productive activities in line with the resource endowment of the area. Similarly, in the education and health sectors, more high schools and health centres will continue to be built.

I, therefore, wish to seek the support of the hon. Members to approve the provincial estimates in order to ensure equitable development in our provinces.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson gave the Floor to Mr Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me …

Mr Mwiimbu moved to another microphone.

The Deputy Chairperson: Does your microphone have a problem?

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but I will use another one.

The Deputy Chairperson: No. In that case, let me suspend business for ten minutes.

Business was suspended from 1930 hours until 1940 hours.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

In view of what has happened, we will report progress and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________

The House adjourned at 1942 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 25th March, 2009.

__________