DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 25th March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ELECTRIFICATION AND REHABILITATION OF KANTANSHI POLICE CAMP

204. Mr P.P. Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) when Kantanshi Police Camp in Mufulira would be electrified; and

(b) when the sewer line at the police camp above would be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the electrification of police camps and stations is an ongoing programme. Presently, most of the infrastructure in police camps is in bad shape due to inadequate funds meant for the programme. The programme is being carried out in phases, but funds allowing, works on infrastructure in Kantanshi Police Camp will be considered in ensuing phases.

Mr Speaker, as regards to the rehabilitation of the sewer line in Kantanshi Police Camp, a quotation worth K400,000,000 has already been obtained from Mulonga Water and Sewerage Company in Mufulira for works that will lead to a complete overhaul of the sewer system. When funds allocated for the rehabilitation of police infrastructure in this year’s budget are released, works to overhaul the sewer system in Kantanshi Police Camp will commence.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr P.P. Chanda: Mr Speaker, the electricity problems in the camp have persisted for some time now. Police living in this camp have ended up making illegal electricity connections which have sometimes led to fatal accidents. Just when are you going work on the sewer line in this police camp because policemen are tired of helping themselves in the bush?

Interruptions

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, as indicated in our answer, the electrification of police camps and stations is an ongoing programme. I just want to brief the House that in the last two years or so, we have electrified the following camps and police stations: Nambuluma in Chinsali; Nyimba; Maninga in Kabompo; Lusaka West Paramilitary Camp, Feni in Chipata; Mazabuka and Sesheke.

Mr Speaker, this is a programme that we have embarked on and funds permitting, we will move to all stations where electricity is required. Kantanshi Police Camp will certainly benefit in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

REHABILITATION OF KITWE AND NDOLA CENTRAL HOSPITALS

205. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when the Kitwe and Ndola Central Hospitals were last rehabilitated; and

(b) when the rehabilitation of the institutions at (a) above will commence.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, rehabilitation of health facilities and institutions is an ongoing activity. In 2002, Kitwe Central Hospital was rehabilitated using K500 million from the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) relief fund. The works that were done included the replacing of broken windows, painting of the main hospital both inside and outside, plumbing works and floor tilling.

Mr Speaker, in 2004, the hospital received additional funds amounting to K165 million. The funds were used to rehabilitate the eye ward. In 2005, two elevators were rehabilitated under the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF) programme at a cost of K300 million while another elevator was rehabilitated in 2006 at a cost of K350 million under the medical levy funds.

Mr Speaker, as for Ndola Central Hospital, the institution was last comprehensively rehabilitated in 1993. However, over the years, other rehabilitation works have been carried out as follows:

 Psychiatry Department 2005
 Casualty Department 2005
 Intensive Care Unit 2004/2005
 Creation of Presidential Suite 2007
 Grazing and External Painting 2008
      Of the old wing

Mr Speaker, currently, there are two major projects going on at the hospital  which include the rehabilitation of the roof at a tender sum of K1.7 billion and replacement of mortuary, maternity and one passenger lift at a tender sum of K2.2 billion.

Mr Speaker, the rehabilitation works at the two institutions are ongoing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, both the Ndola and Kitwe central hospitals are old structures which have leaking roofs. When is this Government going to do a comprehensive maintenance or rehabilitation exercise of these hospitals instead of piecemeal jobs?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, there are priorities that we go by when carrying out rehabilitation works. These priorities depend on the availability of funds. At this particular time, the activities that I have mentioned are what we have graded as priorities. When we are done with these works, we will then start sorting out the other problems that the two hospitals are currently facing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mushili (Ndola): Mr Speaker, in 2007 the former Minister of Health released a sum of K1.6 billion to repair two elevators at Ndola Central Hospital, but to-date these elevators are still not operational. When will this money be put to good use?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I do not know that there are two lifts that are not operational at Ndola Central Hospital. What I know is that, if money is not utilised in a particular budget year, it is sent back to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. I do not think this money is still available to the hospital.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I just wish to ask the hon. Minister if he is aware of any programme for fixing the laundry machine at Nchanga General Hospital which broke down. The workers there are forced to wash all the linen at the hospital with their hands.

Mr Speaker: Are there any questions on these two hospitals on the order paper?

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, when we had blackouts in Ndola there were a lot of problems at Ndola Central Hospital, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, when he is going to repair the electricity generators there?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, to my knowledge the generators at Ndola Central Hospital have already been repaired.

Mr Mushili: Question!

Mr Simbao: That is what I know. So, I do not see where the problems that Hon. Zulu is referring to came from. However, if there has been a recent occurrence of blackouts and these generators have not been used, then I need to check that up.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, whilst we appreciate the rehabilitation of these institutions, we are concerned with the time that has been taken to complete the rehabilitation works. Will the hon. Minister give a timeframe when rehabilitation works at these two institutions will be completed?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I read in the answer to the main question that we are rehabilitating the roof at a tender sum of K1.7 billion. We are also replacing the mortuary, maternity ward and one passenger lift at a tender sum of K2.2 billion. The rehabilitation exercise is on going and will be completed this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Works and Supply seems to know the principle of a stitch in time saves nine. As can be seen in the budget every year, the Ministry of Works and Supply allocates money for the rehabilitation of very important houses. I wonder whether the hon. Minister of Health would also like to take a leaf from the Ministry of Works and Supply so that there is money allocated on an annual basis for the rehabilitation and maintenance of health institutions in the same manner as Ministry of Works and Supply allocates money for the rehabilitation of important houses. Is he willing to do that, Sir?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, thanks for that advice. I am willing to do that.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Very good. Next year mwana.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, there are some reports that at Ndola Central Hospital there are a lot of rats. May I find out when the Government will completely get rid of those rats?

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Nimbeba fwe banobe.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for that question. I am not aware about the rats. It is …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Simbao: … good that you have raised that issue now since all the provincial health directors (PHDs) in the Ministry of Health are currently meeting here in Lusaka to review the 2008 performance. Therefore, I am going to find out from the PHD and Executive Director of Ndola Central about the presence of these rats.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, Ndola Central Hospital has a number of elevators which do not work. In the hon. Minister’s answer to a supplementary question on the elevators, he does not seem to be very clear about the state of the elevators at Ndola Central Hospital. Are the elevators functional at present, if they are not, is he taking any action to repair them?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, when Hon. Mushili stated in his question that 2 elevators at Ndola Central Hospital are not operational, in my response, I said that I was not aware of that problem. However, this year, we are repairing one passenger lift at Ndola Central Hospital which might be one of those elevators.

I thank you, Sir.

_______

MOTION

REPORT BY THE COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, TRANSPORT, WORKS AND SUPPLY ON THE DRAFT HIGHWAY CODE

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the special Report of the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply on the Draft Zambian Highway Code laid on the Table of the House on 20th March, 2009.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, as hon. Members of the House are aware, the Draft Zambian Highway Code was tabled and referred to your Committee for consideration in accordance with Section 231 Sub-Section (3) of the Road Traffic Act No. 11 of 2002, which states and I quote: “Where the Minister proposes to revise the highway code by making alterations in the provision of the code. The Minister shall, as soon as possible, lay the proposed alterations before the National Assembly and the highway code or its revision, as the case may be shall not be issued until the said code or proposed alterations or revisions have been approved by the National Assembly.”

Mr Speaker, I am confident that hon. Members of this august House have had an opportunity to read the draft highway code as it was circulated in good time. I would like from the outset to inform the House that I will come back to the House later, in the year to talk about the road carnage in Zambia which the Committee will consider as part of its work programme this year. I will be brief and precise in presenting this report.

Sir, your Committee, recognising the importance of the highway code in regard to enhancing the safety of all road users, invited a wide range of stakeholders and sought their views and comments. The information received from them was very valuable and needs to be analysed before the highway code is finalised. The interaction gave an opportunity to your Committee to understand the draft highway code and assisted in making suggestions to the parts that need to be amended.

Mr Speaker, your Committee would like to commend the Ministry of Communication and Transport for revising the 1997 Highway Code and making notable changes to it. It would interest the House to know that the highway code, which was last revised in 1997, has been out of circulation for 10 years. This is a vital document and its importance to road safety cannot be overemphasised.

Mr Speaker, your Committee has made some recommendations on the rules in the highway code which need to be amended. I will now highlight just a few.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observed that the highway code is a national document and should, therefore, carry the coat of arms on its cover instead of the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) logo. It should also carry the flag of Zambia. That way, the document will stand the test of time. What I mean is that in future the Act might be amended and RTSA might cease to exist and the document would then lose its importance. Further, the foreword in the highway code should be signed by the Republican President and not the hon. Minister of Communication and Transport. This will give the highway code the authority it deserves.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also recommends that certain words in the highway code should be defined to make it easier for a layman to understand. For example, words like ‘demister’, which simply means a piece of equipment in a vehicle which blows out air to remove condensation on the windows, and ‘four-way flashers’, which means hazards.

Sir, the hand signals should also be depicted in the Highway Code so that they are used correctly by motorists. In a case where the traffic lights fail or where the police have to direct traffic even when the traffic lights are working, hand signals are used.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, during their deliberations learnt that there was conflict of interest and power struggle between RTSA officers and the traffic police from the Zambia Police Service. It is your Committee’s considered view that the Road Traffic Act No. 11 of 2002 should be amended in order to clearly delineate the powers and functions of the two law enforcement agencies.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also discovered that there are problems in harmonising the functions of RTSA, Road Development Agency (RDA), local authorities and the Zambia Police Service. The RTSA makes the rules, local authorities are supposed to put up signs and road markings and RDA is supposed to construct and maintain the roads. However, there is confusion in the carrying out these specific duties among the three agencies. Your Committee urges the Government to come up with a legislation that will harmonise the functions of these bodies.

The draft highway code has clear pictures and features which is a great improvement from the last edition. The Ministry of Communication and Transport should be commended for this. However, it is extremely important that the rules and regulations in the highway code are enforced and implemented properly. Your Committee implores the Ministry of Communication and Transport to translate the Highway Code into the seven local languages used on Zambian radio to cater for those road users who are not familiar with the English language.

Sir, after careful scrutiny of the highway code and the useful information presented by the various stakeholders, your Committee found out that the highway code has met the expected standards and recommend that the changes highlighted in your Committee’s report be taken into consideration by the Ministry of Communication and Transport. Your Committee have confidence that the highway code will go along way in addressing the many issues that affect road users.

Mr Speaker, your Committee have made many observations.I urge the House to support your Committee’s report so that the highway code can be finalised and distributed to the road users. The Committee believes that this will enhance road safety in our country. In view of the foregoing, your Committee strongly recommend that the highway code be ratified.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to thank the hon. Members of your Committee for their diligence and commitment to work during the deliberations. Your Committee also thank all the stakeholders for the oral and written submissions which assisted your Committee in their work. Allow me to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered to your Committee.

Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to you, Sir, for the guidance you rendered to them during the deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

ANNOUNCEMEMNT BY MR SPEAKER

VISITING DELEGATION FROM NAMIBIA

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before we proceed, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of four distinguished visitors who are hon. Members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Security from the Parliament of Namibia. Their names are as follows:

Hon. Nicky P. Nashandi, MP (Leader of Delegation);

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Katuutire Kaura, MP;

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Eunice Lipinge, MP; and

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Mr Manasse C. Zeraeua, Principal Parliament Clerk ─ Committee Services (Secretary to the Delegation).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: We welcome the distinguished visitors and are happy to have them in our midst.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Now, Sir.

Mr Speaker, the motion has been ably moved by the Chairperson of the committee therefore, I intend to be very brief.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the motion, I would like to state that in as much as the highway code is well written, there are areas of concern that your Committee noted. The rules in the highway code need to be supported with matching road infrastructure. For example, the highway code provides for cyclist to use cyclist and  pedestrians to move on  pavements.Mr Speaker, such pavements do not exist in the country, and if they do exist, they only total up to less thank K20 kilometres all put together.

Sir, the highway code has also referred to crossings with flash lights, bells and barriers. Where are these found in Zambia? All level crossings in the country lack these requirements and because of this, the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ) has gone ahead to put humps just before the level crossings.

Mr Speaker, in this modern era we cannot afford to have humps at level crossings to warn road users of on coming trains. We have gone steps back into the past. Your Committee further recommend that road signs should be provided on Zambian roads all the time.

I would also like to discuss the issue of the fees that road users have to pay when they commit offences on the road. The highway code on pages 80-81 outlines the offences and penalties. What caught the eye of your committee, among other penalties, is offence No. 181 which reads and I quote:

 “Pedestrian not using the Zebra Crossing properly.”

Mr Speaker, the penalty for this offence is K540,000.00. How can a person who comes from the village afford such an amount?

Sir your Committee feels that the penalties are too high and could lead to corruption. It is a known fact that corruption on the roads has become endemic. When road users commit offences, they negotiate with the traffic officers to pay amounts less than what is provided for in the highway code to avoid paying the penalties at the police stations because they are unaffordable.

Your Committee recommend that the penalties should be revised downwards in order to reduce corruption.

Sir, I urge hon. Members of this august House to support your Committee’s report.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr C. K. B. Banda ,SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, when RTSA was established, it was established for a good cause and hence the reason the Government engaged first technology of South Africa to set up a computer centre at the Lumumba Road Offices. Apart from setting up the centre and the computer system, they went ahead and trained Zambians to man the computers. Unfortunately, none of those that were trained that time are at this centre today. What RTSA is doing is to employ casuals who start work around 1900 hours everyday to operate the computers.

I think this system of employing casuals should come to an end. We have been complaining of casualisation for a long time. Not only that, for this Zambian Highway Code which has been put in place now to be useful, RTSA needs to employ qualified motor vehicle examiners whose role would be to examine the road worthiness of the vehicles that will be moving on our roads.

I note with dismay that only recently the  RTSA sent young Zambians to university to do a three weeks course after which they were awarded diplomas.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: How possible is that?

To crown it all, a sum of over K127, 000,000 was paid for that course. Was it really necessary? Do we not have enough trades training institutions which are chaining out qualified automotive mechanics? We have Northern Technical College (NORTEC), therefore, my appeal to this body is that it should ensure that it employs properly qualified motor vehicle examiners.

Mr Speaker, the other important point that will compliment the efforts that has been put in place is the engagement of qualified personnel to run RTSA. I regret to say that as at this time, persons running RTSA are not qualified to run that organisation. How can you have a surveyor running an institution that is responsible for transport management in this country in this age? Is it by mistake? I think there is need to ensure that we employ qualified people to man organisations such as RTSA.

Finally, even the person who is responsible for ensuring that this highway code is followed at RTSA is unfortunately a teacher. Are we short of people qualified in transport management? Do we have few Zambians who are members of the Chartered Institute of Transport?

As I wind up, my appeal is that let us ensure that we engage correct people to run RTSA. Not only that once upon a time, this institution had police officers seconded to it. This is no longer the case. Why have they chased away police officers? Is it to allow a free reign of corruption to take root in the institution? Why have the officers from the Office of the President who used to be stationed at the institution been chased away? There is need for checks and balances in order to ensure that this institution runs to the satisfaction of Zambians.

With these few words, I, wholeheartedly support the motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I want to commend the Committee for a good report and I say from the beginning, I support the report.

Mr Speaker, road networks are very important to this country and road users have to have compassion for each other.

Mr Speaker, transport and communication as a ministry is actually one very important ministry which can earn a lot of revenue for this country. If you notice most of the time there is a lot of congestion on our roads. Yes, we realise that we have got a lot of motor vehicles and limited space, but I was of the opinion that the Ministry of Communications and Transport comes up with punitive measures for people who obstruct or leave their vehicles stationary on the road, thus obstructing other road users.

Mr Speaker, whenever a vehicle runs out of fuel, instead of the owner taking it off the road, he or she usually leaves it on the road with hazard lights on, thus inconveniencing other road users. This results in a lot of time being wasted for other road users because they are blocked by vehicles that are stuck on the road. In other countries, there are specialised units which offer towing services, whereby when they find such a car, they tow it to a particular place where the owner goes and pays a fine for obstructing other vehicles. I am looking forward to a day when such a law will be enforced in Zambia. If we have such a law in place, I am sure the Government will generate revenue from it.

Mr Speaker, the other issue which I want to look at is congestion. How do we decongest a place like Lusaka? There is land which has been reserved for years for the road network. We all know that about fifty metres on the sidewalk of any road and rail line transport is usually reserved for expansion programmes. Rail transport is the easiest way of decongesting places like Lusaka, but …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: … we have not invested in it.

Now the most unfortunate thing is that we have not put the land reserved for rail networks to good use. If you go to European countries, you find that the making of rail and road networks moves side by side. Unfortunately, in Zambia, the land that was reserved for the development of rail networks has been sold to people. If you look at the land just behind Cairo Road, it was supposed to be reserved for the construction of a rail line instead of the commercial properties that are built on it today. Where are we going to develop future roads or infrastructure in Zambia? Most of the land in Zambia ha been sold to people who want to construct commercial property.

Mr Speaker, the land on which Zambia Railways goods shed is built on, this is land is big enough to accommodate an alternative road or rail line from town to Matero and other compounds. Sadly that area has been turned into a commercial industrial zone. Who allowed those commercial entities to get land which was reserved for future road and rail development? I think somebody has to look into this because I smell a rat and the smell is not good.

Mr Speaker, there are lot of ways we can make money from our roads. It is common these days to find a moving car emitting a lot of smoke. Are you sure there are no enough rules and regulations which could deter people from driving vehicles that produce carbon which damages the ozone layer? Why should we allow people to drive cars that emit a lot of smoke? If you go near the roads, you find a lot of dead flies on the side walk.

Hon. Members: No.

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes, this shows that the smoke is a very big health hazard. Maybe our lungs are able to withstand the smoke as we breathe for now, but as we go on, we may start suffering from complicated lung infections which are expensive to treat. Now, I urge the Ministry of Communications and Transport to come up with better measures to discourage people from driving cars that emit a lot of smoke. Cars that emit a lot of smoke which is a hazard to the health of our people must be fined. I think once this is done, it will help the State raise revenue which will be used to make our cities and roads clean.

Mr Speaker, I fail to understand why people are restricting the use of personalised number plates. This is another area from which we can raise revenue. Today personalised number plates cost K1 million…

Hon. Members: K5 million.

Mr Shakafuswa: … K5 million per number plate. There are people like me who would not just want three letters but I would want to write ‘Shakas’ on my number plate.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: I am sure you know ‘Shakas.’

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, in my case I would have to pay K5 million for the first three letters and K1 million for each additional letter. Reducing the cost of acquiring personalized number plates can help us raise enough money  that can help us to construct  the Mungule Road and rehabilitate the Muchenje High School which people are cheating to the Members of this House that it is on window when it has not been funded yet. In fact, I am looking for money to complete this project.

Mr Speaker: Order! The word “cheating” is unparliamentary.You must withdraw it.

You may continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: It is misleading. There are a lot of ways of raising money. South Africa raises a lot of money from road users, especially from those who want personalised number plates like “Shakas”. If we also do the same, I am sure we will be able to raise a lot of money which we can use on special projects.

Mr Speaker, a lot of revenue raised from road users is not accounted for. The money has gone into peoples pockets. Why not reintroduce the ticket system? Anyone who breaks traffic rules should be given a ticket and be made the fine at a centralised pay point either by a bank certified cheque or cash. This money will be receipted as general revenue for the Government. When a road user commits an offence and is for example asked to pay a K240, 000 fine, he will avoid it by bribing the police officer with K50,000. When this is being done, the Government loses revenue. Why not come up with a system which will improve the collection of revenue from this very important sector? I urge the Government to sit down and look at the best practices in other countries so that it can come up with a better way of earning income from traffic offenders.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to look at the process of issuing Public Service Vehicle (PSV) driving licences. The road carnage in this country is as a result of bad, inexperienced and immature drivers. I think that we should look at this issue seriously.

If you went on the road today, you will find very young men driving buses. Why can we not put up an age limit on the PSV driving licences?  For instance, we can make 35 as the age at which a person can be eligible to get a PSV licence. We can also say that a driver of a PSV should have driven for a particular length of time before starting to drive public buses. For instance, only those who would have driven for five years in other categories should drive a PSV. At the moment, what is happening is that a person who was a conductor the day before being taught how to merely reverse a vehicle will be driving it the next day when the driver is not available. The conductors usually start driving buses without any proper driving lessons so in this case you will have the lives of 18, 20 or 40 people in the hands of an inexperienced driver. This needs to be looked at seriously.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is that the Government should come up with a deliberate programme to offload the heavy load on our roads. They have to come up with a deliberate programme of developing rail transport. We should have a situation where certain amounts of cargo should not be transported by road. This is in order to give business to Tanzania Zambia Railways (TAZARA) and the Railway System of Zambia. A lot of goods are going south using South African registered vehicles. We can get that business for Zambians by deliberately putting up a law which may be states that only goods up to 30 tons will use our roads.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, that way, we will be able to give business to TAZARA, which is denied business because of the competition it is getting from trucks. It will also give relief to our budget because the total budget of Ministry of Works and Supply for working on the roads will be reduced. We shall shift the money that we were using to repair roads which are being eroded due to being used by vehicles with heavy loads to the development of railway transport. You will find that the maintenance costs are limited.

Let us come up with ways of improving our revenue collection methods in the transport sector. We also need to find ways of increasing the efficiency of railway transport in the country so that we can make TAZARA more profitable again. When TAZARA is made profitable, it will be able to employ more people.

Mr Speaker: Order! I must interrupt the hon. Member. He is not addressing the Motion.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Do you have a copy of the Motion or the document on which the Motion is based before you? Please address the issues in this document. It is entitled “Special Report on the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply on the Draft Zambian Highway Code”. Do not use your own report.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I had a different report. In that case, with those very important few words, …

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: I support the Motion.

Laughter

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I support, wholeheartedly, the Motion, which was delivered eloquently by my brother, Hon. Raphael Muyanda.

Mr Speaker, while accepting the report, there are certain elements of this report or the purported law to come, that I consider of a nuisance value. For instance, if one of my cousins from Chibombo was crossing the main road going to Kabwe and there is only one Zebra crossing, and for some reason did not know about it, and was hit by a bicycle or in this case, a vehicle, for that person to be charged K500 is totally wrong.

Secondly, I want to speak about people who own cattle, like many of us here and are along the line of rail. Roads are not meant for cows. They are meant for motor vehicles.

Hon. Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Are you with me?

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mr Matongo: If I hit somebody’s cow on the main road or someone hits my cows, which by the way are totally insured, Hon. Hachipuka will tell you, rightly hidden somewhere, …

Hon. Member: Where?

Mr Matongo: You are a thief, I do not want to tell you that.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! This is the problem we have when hon. Members debate while seated. That is what you get. However, since you are the one who is on the Floor, you must withdraw that remark.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, having stated this …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: …we should ensure that all those people on main highways, just like the game parks keep their animals well within manageable areas. Do not expect an innocent driver, just because he has hit your cow on the main road, to be a culprit. In game parks and towns, we say give way to animals. The highways are meant for a very specific function and you understand this, do you not?

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that there are people who build shops very close to the highway. You just have to drive to Mwembeshi on Lusaka/Mumbwa Road to believe what I have said. The shops are very close to the road. I believe that there must be a distance between buildings and the road through which drivers must drive on. If for some unfortunate reason, some driver lands into one of those shops, it should be the owner of the shop paying for the vehicle and not otherwise.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: It is a fact that this happens. People build right on the road. There must be rules in this country, just like it is inappropriate for hon. Members of Parliament as they leave Parliament to join the Great East road in the side road meant for pedestrians and cyclers.

Hon. UPND Members: Cyclists

Mr Matongo: Cyclists. Thank you for that perfect English. I have seen hon. Members of Parliament use the sidewalk because for some reason, the Government leader of the House has blocked the road. Now if they knock somebody down on the sidewalk, you must be jailed or be made to pay compensation.

Mr Speaker, all I am saying is that we should be extremely cautious of what we do as responsible pedestrians and drivers.

Mr Speaker, there are so many laws in this country that are not implemented. However, I would like to state that laws are made to prevent an occurrence that may come befall a community in the future. Therefore, I support this particular Bill as presented by my brother.

Sir, finally, we should have laws that are practical and beneficial to the ordinary citizens. I feel that laws that are made in order to collect revenue for misdemeanours are not good. Good laws should provide for penalties that will make those who break the law regret their actions. Laws of a nuisance value which are in the main statute must not be repeated from now onwards. I hope that, as we legislate this week, all those that are denying the Zambian people revenue in order to support a mischief by some Government official who signed bad development agreements should not be respected.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Whenever, we are faced with problems regarding certain laws, we should always seek honourable ways of resolving them. The Leader of Government Business in the House has admitted having problems with certain development agreements which need to be worked on. Whatever law we make now, should not be one that will lead us to make an apology in future for putting it in place. Therefore, as we make this highway code, …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … we should be very clear that there are laws in our statutes that must be stopped because they are not good.

For instance, lawyers will agree with me that in our statutes, there is a law known against indecent curiosity which was passed by the Colonial Government. This law promotes the principal that if somebody’s wife passes and you keep on looking at her and there is evidence, …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … you can be prosecuted.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: It was made, precisely, for houseboys. Most of these people (Government Members) were probably houseboys or were born of houseboy parents.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: This was to make them not to admire the wives of the whites  …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: …  whom they were working for.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: However, that law has never really been implemented.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Why should we scrap the Windfall Tax when we can put it on statutes and leave it there until it can be effected?

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to contribute on this Motion.

Sir, in supporting the Motion which has been ably moved by my friend, Hon. Muyanda and Mulamu (brother-in-law), Hon. Muteteka, I would like to state that I will be very brief. First and foremost, I would like to declare interest. I am a small transporter with a small fleet of trucks and I also own a railway company.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima:  Yes!

It is called City Rail. I would like to put it on record because, tomorrow, somebody may say that I did not declare interest.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I agree with the Motion and submissions that have been made, but I would like to say that today most of our drivers do not take driving as a career. I am referring to people who drive public transport vehicles like taxies, buses, trucks and other vehicles registered to be carry passengers.

Sir, they say experience is the best teacher. Well, I started driving when I was about eleven years old.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: I got a licence when I became of age at that time.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: When?

Mr Sichilima: A few years ago.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Do not laugh.

Mr Speaker, my father bought me a car when I was in Form I. I used to drive when going to school. I know what I am talking about.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister will address the Chair and ignore the hecklers.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, when I talk about the mindset, people must first …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: I am just about to answer you.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I had no intentions of interrupting the debate by the hon. Deputy Minister who happens to be Hon. Muteteka’s mulamu.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: However, I need your serious ruling. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to tell us that his father bought him a car when he was in Form I? I suppose he was below the age at which driving licences are issued?

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Is it in order for him to stand on the Floor of this House and tell us that he has been part of a system of illegality?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: While the hon. Deputy Minister will deal with that point of order from the hon. Member for Katuba, the Chair has to rule that it is an offence for underage people to drive.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Especially, when they declare that they were at the age when they begun to drive illegally. The hon. Deputy Minister, may continue.

Mr Sichilima: I thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

We have underage riders in motor cross competitions. I started riding motor cycles at a very tender age. When I grew up, I met my colleague, Hon. Nsanda, who taught me more about motorbikes. He also taught me how to handle those on motorbikes.

Mr Speaker, having said that, I would like to zero in and remind those who were there at the time that there came a transport company called ZAMTAN. However, because of the situation in which this country was, trained drivers were not available and foreigners had to be employed although we did not know how qualified they were. As a result, we saw a number of accidents especially on the Great North Road. Later, local people were trained and started working for companies like the Bulk Carriers of Zambia and Contract Haulage (CH). I am sure the previous speakers, Hon. Matongo and Hon. Hachipuka, are familiar with these companies.

However, because of the increase in need for drivers, Mimosa Driving School was established. As a result, we saw a reduction in accidents. What am I saying? I am saying that a driver is someone who decides to take driving as a career. He or she must take it personal and do it out of interest. Today, we always want to blame the Government unnecessarily. Where are the operators who spend lots of money to buy these expensive vehicles doing to reduce the accidents on our roads? They seem not to mind investigating whether the people they employ are trained or not.

Sir, the hon. Member for Katuba, in his debate said, “somebody who was a conductor yesterday would be reversing the vehicle in front.” I do not know if there is such a thing. You can only reverse backwards.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: This means that it is difficult to have a conductor today and tomorrow he is able to drive. 

Mr Speaker, I am glad to mention that very soon, there will be a Motion to enact the law that will regulate drivers. The hon. Members of Parliament have talked about motorists obstructing each other. This situation usually occurs when somebody goes to park his car right behind your car. What causes the situation is the mindset of that particular driver because he does not consider other motorists. These situations are also common on highways.  You will find that somebody runs out of fuel on the middle of the highway and does not bother push his car out of the road. I am sure there are rules and regulations that need to control such situations. To my surprise, we take such situations as a by the way occurrences.

Sir, the next issue I will discuss is hooting. There is a rule that says that you should not hoot when you are driving on a highway. It also says that people should not hoot unnecessarily in places such as police stations, hospitals and offices. We have had situations where some cadres from certain parties mobilise themselves and start honking without even the police escorting them. That disturbs a lot of people and by law, it is an offence.  

Mr Speaker, let me now look at funeral processions. In normal circumstances, we need to go to ask the police to escort a funeral procession, but there has been a trend that as long as vehicles are in a convoy, then they should disregard traffic lights. Wedding convoys also move the same way as funeral processions. Movements of this nature cause a lot of accidents. As long as the traffic lights are green, other road users who are coming from the other side will not know that there is a procession because there will be no police signal. This trend must be stopped.

Mr Speaker, I was watching a programme on Muvi Television on which they were discussing the traffic congestion in Lusaka. There was a spokesman from Lusaka City Council and a member of a certain association. A caller during the programme asked the council to create parking areas because there are too many vehicles in Lusaka. The response by the council was that it was not responsible for creating packing space in the main trading areas because people knock off and go back to their respective residential areas. If I were a Councilor, I would smell money. I hope hon. Members of Parliament who are Councilors are listening.

Mr Speaker, we could create these packing spaces and earn a lot of money, while providing a service to the people. If you go to Kaunda Square, you will find that the roads are small and there is no space for parking vehicles. People are forced to park their vehicles at the market. You would find a very long queue of vehicles at the market in Kaunda Square. If the council were to make a car park somewhere within Kaunda Square, they would be charging a certain fee for parking and in turn would  use their earnings to create modern parking slots even at the town Centre. We cannot say that we do not know what to do about the traffic congestion in Lusaka. It is the duty of Lusaka City Council to find packing space in Lusaka.

Sir, my colleague talked about the railway network in Zambia. I discuss the railway network in detail because I am the current chairman of the company which he mentioned during his debate.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, a railway line plays a very important role in most countries.Since most our roads are congested, once we make a railway, we can make a fly over bridge on top of it, hence reducing the traffic congestion in Lusaka. This can decongest our roads in Lusaka.

Sir, one commendable jobs, out of many that the Committee has done is to introduce a tool kit for each and every vehicle to use especially, on a high way. The Zambia Highway Code says, and I quote,

“there should be in the kit a pair of triangles, jack, wheel spanner and a spare tyre which is in good condition.”

Mr Speaker, you will find that the above rule is not followed by most motorists. I hope that in the new highway code, especially if it is going to be translated in our Zambian languages so that most people can understood it. I am saying so because we have a lot of accidents where you have heard people hitting into stationary vehicles which lack the tool kit. Some motorists even sleep on the road because of not having spare tyres or a jack. This rule must be emphasized because it is often ignored.

Sir, I am against the rule which says, when you are crossing the road with children, you should hold hands. That rule must be rephrased to suit the situation. In an old highway code, there is a picture which shows that when children are crossing a road and the driver hoots, people will scamper to different directions. Such a situation is very dangerous. I have seen situations in which a driver runs into children and their parents. We should be guided by the professionals as to what rule should be followed in such situations.

Mr Speaker, I look at the Zebra crossing. This road sign should be clearly understood by pedestrians and motorists. We should not just put the rules in place, but to also  sensitise the people on them. I am saying so because some of the pedestrians think that they can even sleep on the Zebra crossing.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Sir, I have seen this when driving. Sometimes, children would cross to the other side of the road and the other moment, they want to cross to the other side again. I have been talked to before by a child aged four to five years in Lusaka. When I stopped car so that I could talk to this child, he said, “Iwe chimudala, siuziba kuyenza chabe motoka. Siuona ati ni pa zebra crossing.”  This means, “old man, you do not know how to drive a car. This is a zebra crossing.” I had to stop and talk to this child and his parent who was nearby helped me. Zebra crossings can even be used in critical situations to protect motorists and pedestrians.

Sir, at the Lusaka Main Post Office, the traffic lights and zebra crossing are just a few metres apart. You will find that when the traffic lights are green, most people want to cross the road despite cars continuing to move.

   Sometimes, when it is amber that is when people want to cross. One is forced to stop and by the time they are crossing, the traffic lights are red. This situation needs to be looked at.

Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to say that RTSA is doing a commendable job.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor. From the outset, I would like to state that I support the Motion but with a few reservations. 

Mr Speaker, there cannot be a proper highway code without proper road signs. The situation prevailing in Zambia today is such that almost all the roads, away from the town centres, have no road signs. It is extremely difficult to enforce law where there are no road signs. In some cases, roads are not even marked. There is no distinction between the give way and the stop sign.  Unless these roads are clearly marked to distinguish such factors, it is of no value to come up with a very good highway code.

Mr Speaker, in Lusaka, more often than not, the traffic lights are non-operational. How do you expect people to follow the rules when three quarters of the year, the traffic lights are non-functional? As Government, we need to first ensure that the basics are done before we can come up with a highway code that will be respected.

Sir, it is extremely difficult to enforce the highway code and to apprehend people that break it when the surrounding environment does not make it easy for people to follow the law. I say so because we have seen a situation where the police keep having runing battles with minibus drivers. This is uncalled for. We simply need to fully computerise the operations of RTSA so that the traffic officers need to only pick the registration number of the vehicle, and be able to pick the address and the name of the owner of the vehicle from the computers at their offices so that they can send a summon or a callout to this particular offender for him or her to report to their offices and pay the fine. However, because RTSA is not computerised to this extent, we find a situation where the police have to chase minibuses, putting the lives of our people at stake.

 Mr Speaker, I have always inquired, on the Floor of this House, through questions, about how computerized the operations of RTSA are. However, I have been told often by hon. Ministers that the computerisation of the operations of RTSA has it has reached an advanced stage. We need to quickly move in this direction. Once we have computerised RTSA, we can link it properly to the traffic police and the courts. This will make it extremely easy for us to get hold of the offenders.

Sir, in England, you do not even need to stop an offender. Sometimes the police may be following you behind, and when you commit an offence, they do not even need to stop you at all. All they do is go onto their computer within their vehicle and search for the owner of the vehicle, where he lives and indeed whether it is insured. The police will simply write to the offender that on a particular date that he or she committed an offence on a particular road. They even ask that person to pay the fine. There is no dispute whatsoever. People just go and pay the fines.

 Here, however, we want to only depend on the road traffic police officers, who are extremely corrupt. We have accepted a situation where we just keep increasing the fees payable for committing offences as the best solution. What is happening now is that when the police officers get hold of these offenders, they tell them at the station that they need to pay K240,000, but they can instead make a plan for the offender to just pay K20,000. These are facts. When we tell the Government what is happening, they say we should produce evidence. They know that these things happen, but they want to pretend as if they do not have an idea. As long as we pretend, we will not sort out the problem. We need to move quickly.

Mr Speaker, somebody was telling me jokingly that traffic police officers have even started telling their wives that if there no bread in the house, they should just boil the water as he goes to the Automated Teller Machine (ATM) to get some money. In this case, the ATM being the traffic check points. This is disheartening. 
Laughter

Mr Kambwili: We must make sure that first and foremost we pay the police that are involved in road traffic patrols well. If they are not well paid, they will turn the roadblocks into ATMs. This is extremely sad.

Mr Speaker, the other issue we need to look at seriously is the speed cameras. When I asked, on the Floor of this House, why police officers ambush people with speed cameras, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs answered that is how things are supposed to be done. We should not turn these mechanisms that can be used for stopping crime into money making tools. The idea of a speed camera is to deter motorists from committing offences, and not to ambush them so that they can be arrested when they commit an offence.

Mr Speaker, all the areas where police officers mount these traffic speed cameras, should be well labeled. They should state that “speed camera ahead”. If we do this, we will create a situation where motorists will not be over speeding because they will know that there is a sign post indicating that there is  a speed camera ahead and if they over speed, they will be caught on the speed camera.

In this era, we should not allow police officers to stand with these speed cameras. It is an archaic arrangement. We need to come up with fixed motor vehicle speed cameras where the camera itself will take a picture of the vehicle and then like I said, all this is easily possible when we have a fully computerised system. If the system is fully computerised, the cameras will take the picture and all you do is take a letter to the respective address of the offender informing him or her on the date they were over speeding, and kindly ask them to report to the police station or the nearest pay point for the payment of the fine.

We have, however, created room for corruption by these police officers because they ambush the people. Most of the money that these police officers collect ends up in their pockets.

Mr Speaker, in Kitwe for instance, those vehicles that carry logs for sawmills are never in perfect conditions. They do not have lights and are not licensed. However, everyday, they pass through roadblocks. How they pass through these roadblocks, nobody knows. This can be checked. Every day at the main roadblock when entering Mufulira, you find police officers have impounded a vehicle whose wipers are not working, in the dry season while they let vehicles which are not roadworthy to pass through the roadblocks all in the name of corruption.

Then as the Government, we want to pretend that these things do not happen when we come to this House. Whenever I ask questions relating to the corruption in the transport sector, they always say that I should bring empirical evidence. Colleagues, posterity will judge us harshly if we do not listen and take into consideration the advice that comes from the Opposition.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to thank the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply and the seconder through you, for acknowledging and accepting that the Zambian Highway Code of 1997 needed to be revised to take into account the changing environment under which the transport sector is operating and the need to harmonise and adopt regionally best practices.

Sir, to signify the importance that the Government attaches to the issues related to road safety, the revised Zambian Highway Code like previous editions will be signed by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia and will carry the Zambian coat of arms and the National flag on its cover.

Sir, I wish to inform this august House that road transport in Zambia is a major contributor to economic development without, which it would be extremely difficult for any sector to perform. It is appreciated that while road transport requires the movement of both goods and people in an efficient and timely manner, the need to do so often results in road accidents that can be avoided. It is therefore, becomes important that the need to have an efficient road transport system where goods and people move in a timely manner is moderated with the need to have a safer road transport environment. World-wide, research has shown that over 80 per cent of road traffic accidents are due to human errors.

Mr Speaker, best international practice has demonstrated that one of the effective ways of dealing with the human causes of road traffic accidents is through the use of a highway code. The highway code is a user manual published to guide all road users on the correct and safe use of public roads as a shared resource. Let me emphasise that the Zambian Highway Code was last revised in 1997, which is almost ten years ago by the National Road Safety Council (NRSC) then. Since then, there have been a number of developments in the road transport sector both locally and regionally. It is for this reason that the Government attaches great importance to having the revised highway code published and widely circulated. This will help to increase road safety awareness among road users thereby, contributing to the reduction in road accidents and promoting good road user behaviour.

Mr Speaker, Government has taken note of the positive debate, comments and observations on this document and gives its assurance to this august House that these will be addressed in the final document before it is published. Government has also taken note of the need to harmonise and clearly spell out the functions of the RTSA, Road Development Agency (RDA), local authorities, Zambia Police Service and other related institutions in order to have conducive road safety environment.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, Government will ensure that this is addressed in the review of the operations of the road agencies which is currently under way.

Mr Speaker, I urge the House to support the Committee’s report.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, once again, I would like to thank you. Indeed, I would also like to thank His Honour, the Vice-President for indicating that Government will take into account most of the salient and very significant points that have been raised in the report.

Mr Speaker, may I once again thank all hon. Members, those that have debated and those that have not debated for their unreserved support that they have given to my Committee

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

_____{mospagebreak}

BILLS

SECOND READING

EXCESS EXPEDNITURE APPROPRIATION (2006) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, by the resolution of the House made in February 2006, Members of the Pubic Accounts Committee were appointed by the House. One tasks that was given to the Committee was to review and make recommendations on matters relating to the Financial Year ending 31st December, 2006.

Among the recommendations made and accepted by the House was one with regard to the excess expenditure in the sum of K9,359,151,947. Therefore, the purpose of the Bill is to regularise the excess of unconstitutional expenditure incurred during the 2006 fiscal year as per requirement.

Sir, as you may recall, this matter was exhaustively debated when the House considered the 2006 Financial Report, the Auditor-General’s Report and the Report of the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr Speaker, I now seek the support of this august House in approving the Bill.

 I thank You, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to say a few words on the Bill that is before this House, the Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill (2006), Bill.

Mr Speaker, let me begin by reminding the House as the hon. Minister has done  that the Excess Expenditure was incurred in the Financial Year ended 31st December, 2006 and was deliberated upon by the Public Accounts Committee and their report was adopted by this august House.

However, there was one item that was not reflected in the report by the Auditor-General on the Accounts for the Financial Year ended 31st December, 2006. This was excess expenditure of K717,706,743 under Head 99/04, which was Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure Contingency. As will be noted by the House in the report on the Bill, the K717,706,743 was actually savings that were wrongly declared under contingency.

Mr Speaker, there are no expenditure that is directly met from contingency, but funds are transferred from contingency to respective ministry, provinces and spending agencies. This amount should have been charged under the appropriate units and in this particular case, Zambia Security Intelligence Service and The Gender in Development Division.

Mr Speaker, your Committee would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that such lapses are not repeated and the responsible officers should be warned.

Mr Speaker, I wish to urge this august House to support the Bill.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the House for the support. We have noted the recommendations made by the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to the committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

THE SUPPLEMENTARY EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION (2007) BILL

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, following the approval of the Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2007 …

Mr Speaker: Order!

You have to move your Bill first.

Mr Mubika: I beg to move.

Dr Musokotwane: My apologies.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, following approval of the Supplementary Estimates of No. 1 of 2007, providing additional funds for carrying out essential services by the Government during the financial year 1st January to 31st December 2007, I was directed to return to this House with the necessary legislation to give effect to the resolution of the House. The Bill before the House, therefore, is intended to legalise the supplementary funds amounting to K548,215,621,701.

Mr Speaker, as hon. Members are aware, the Supplementary Estimates No. 1 2007 were thoroughly debated and the Bill is just meant to regularise the approval already given by this House.
 
Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, once more, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to highlight a few issues on the Bill under consideration.

Sir, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee which was privileged to have had the Bill referred to them for detailed scrutiny, I wish to state that your Committee supports the Bill and further wishes to urge this House to pass it. However, in doing so, I wish to point out a few pertinent issues that your Committee came across during their interaction with the Secretary to the Treasury and the controlling officers.

Reasons or Justification for the Supplementary Applications

As will be noted from the report, Mr Speaker, some of the supplementary expenditure went to fund mundane activities which could have been adequately budgeted for. Otherwise, there were no activities that can be described as being of an emergency nature.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was happy to note that a number of controlling officers have started taking measures to avoid incurring unconstitutional expenditure. During the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly, it was observed by the Public Accounts Committee that the main reason for the excess expenditure was failure to apply for supplementary provisions when capital funds were carried forwarded from one year to another. This time around, there seems to be some progress on this matter, and I wish to congratulate the Government for doing that.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Under Head 99/01, Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, Debit Service External, it will be observed that a supplementary provision amounting …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, when business was suspended I was just congratulating the hon. Minister for avoiding unconstitutional expenditure.

Now, under Head 99/01, Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, Debit Service-External, it will be observed that a supplementary provision amounting to K109.9 billion was granted. This was the second highest supplementary amount due for confirmation. The reason given for failing to budget for maturing loans with the European Investment Bank was failure of the computer system.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, Zambians went through a difficult time when the country had a lot of external debt. There was further sacrifice in the process of reaching the heavily indebted poor country (HIPC) completion point.

Your Committee expects the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to be more careful with the maintenance of data on our foreign debt. It should ensure that the system operates well and business continuity plans are put in place.

Supplementary figures

Mr Speaker, the financial statement and the Yellow Book have a total approved estimates column which contains figures which are a sum of the initially approved estimates and approved supplementary estimates.

The question is: “what figures should be contained in the Bill?” Is it the netted supplementary, as is the case in this Bill, or the total supplementary expenditure?

As will be observed in the report, this matter is subject to different interpretations. However, which ever system is adopted, it should be such that it is easily understood or followed. If a lay person went through the Yellow Book or the financial statement, which is the blue book, he or she would find it difficult to relate figures in the Supplementary Appropriation Bill to those in the two books. It is for this reason that the Minister of Finance and National Planning has been requested to consider reviewing the presentation format of the financial statement to make it more user friendly.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members know that the national resource envelope is very limited and most Government institutions have to make do with the resources that are made available through the budget.

However, with such a difficult situation, fiscal discipline has to be observed. Controlling officers should be made to operate within the approved budget allocations. Supplementary Estimates should be reserved to deal with unusual circumstances or emergencies. Currently, it appears that Supplementary Estimates are routine. As will be seen, the Public Accounts Committee, when considering the Bill, had to deal with twenty four controlling officers. This was almost the entire Government.

Mr Speaker, I am not inferring that supplementary provisions are wrong. These are provided for in our laws, including the Constitution, but we should learn to live within our means. It is quite interesting that Government institutions are given ceilings when the budget estimates are being prepared, but there is no corresponding limitation on the supplementary provisions.

Your committee looks forward to the day when institutions will only be permitted to spend a small percentage of their total budget as supplementary. Anything above this will have to be a real emergency that needs to get approved. Through such an arrangement, it will be easier to save funds for use in the following year.

Mr Speaker, let me end by advising the Minister of Finance and National Planning who, fortunately, had the privilege of serving as secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Minister must endeavour to maintain a good working relationship between the controlling officers and accounting officers. The accounting officers are professionals and are, in fact, the ones who perform the accounting duties. In one ministry, specifically the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, your Committee witnessed evidence of the accounting officers working against their controlling officer in terms of providing information to your Committee. The hon. Minister should ensure that accounting officers are not only supportive, but also fully knowledgeable of Government’s accounting systems.

Mr Speaker, controlling officers cannot function if there is no support from the accounting officers. Mr Speaker, as I earlier indicated, your Committee wishes to urge the House to support the Bill and confirm the supplementary expenditure amounting to K548,215,621,701, which was needed for services of the republic.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of your Committee, I wish to thank your office and that of the Clerk for the support accorded to them to scrutinise the Bill. May I also thank the Auditor-General and her staff, the Accountant-General and his staff and all controlling officers who made submissions on the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the House for the support and would like to say that we have taken note of advice from the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

____________

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, before we consider Clause 8, when we were considering this Bill on Friday, 20th March, 2009 at second reading stage, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice indicated that he was going to do some consultations regarding the issue of the abolishing of the Windfall Tax and that he was going to brief us on his findings. We have not heard His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice telling us the outcome of his consultations.

Interruptions

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, we are wondering how we can proceed to consider this amendment without His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice advising us on the outcome of his consultations. Has his Government decided to go ahead with the abolishing of the Windfall Tax or not?

The Deputy Chairperson: Did you say, Clause 8? This Clause does not seem to have anything to do with Windfall Tax.

Mr Kakoma: Sir, it starts with the submission of company returns and these have to do with the returns for Windfall tax.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, if Hon. Kakoma may recall that on that day, I pleaded with hon. Members on your left to allow us go and consult, but instead they decided to adopt a confrontation stance and proceeded with the division. Now, at that stage when the division was conducted which they lost, what it meant was that the issue was resolved.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Magande: Yes.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: All the same, I went ahead and I have consulted and the answer is negative.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I understand the Vice-President and Minister of Justice fully. However, I thought that even after we may have caused an aberration in his view, he would have been magnanimous enough to have reviewed his position after his consultations since Zambia is under a democratic dispensation.

Mr Chairperson, what we were saying on this side is that we simply need this revenue for our people. Secondly, we were saying that what has changed within a year that can make you come back to the House to talk about the same issue in a different way. Again to me, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice came out at least clear that the Executive had a problem with some development agreements that were put together some time back. What he did not say was that if we scrapped off this Act, the arbitration by certain stakeholders will be dropped. He has not cleared that yet it is still hanging. If we are dropping this tax in order for us to just avoid going to court, then we need to improve the way we do things. Next time, let Parliament be involved when negotiating the development agreements. I will be happy to take any punishment that will be meted by the Vice-President should the development agreements that we contribute to not work well.

Mr Chairperson, the last point is that for how long shall these Zambian people lose revenue from mining? Botswana with their diamonds, see where they are.

Mr Chairperson, the President of Tanzania sacked the whole cabinet, just yesterday because the mines there do not pay taxes, royalties and all sorts of things, they have the same problems that we have. They appointed a technical committee to review the entire mining operations in that country. They also appointed a parliamentary non-partisan committee. By the way, they only have nineteen hon. Members in Opposition who all will be part of the process. The recommendations that will be made will seek to increase the benefits that the people of Tanzania get from their diamonds and gold.

Surely, Mr Chairperson, is that not an example to emulate by my dear colleagues on that side? Is that not a correct way of doing things? May I get it from the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that all he wants is get his way.Yes, he is punishing us for exercising our democratic right, but can he give hope to the Zambian people that in fact they are prepared to review this matter so that in future after they have cleared the legal technicalities which they have now, they will come back to do the correct thing. We need hope rather than punishment.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, in our consultations we have since discovered that the hon. Members on your left were merely politicking …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … because …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … they had taken a position and we published letters in the newspapers yesterday. They were against Windfall Tax…

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … especially the PF, it has  always been against Windfall Tax.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The position which they have given for being against Windfall Tax is that they want to save the mines from collapse and they want to save jobs. This is what we are doing as a Government and we do not accept that this Windfall Tax should be dropped without any good reasons. I also must mention that variable tax serves the same purpose for which Windfall Tax was introduced. In any case, it is our view that Windfall Tax is punitive because it does not take into account the cost of production and expenses. According to this tax, expenses are not supposed to be deducted. Unfortunately, Mr Chairperson, our friends on your left were very unreasonable in their approach such that they even called for a division the other day over the same matter.

Therefore, the position is that this Bill should proceed un-amended.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, let me categorically state that matters of this nature are national in nature and those of us who choose to rise and speak, we speak on behalf of the masses of this country.

Mr Chairperson, one of the reasons why we oppose the amendment was the fact that this same Government has not changed. They are the ones who after thorough consultations decided to come to this House and changed the law to ensure that there was Windfall Tax introduced. The reasons given for the amendment was among other things, the fall in the copper. We argued on the Floor of this House that despite the world wide recession, our view of copper prices and those views are based on knowledge, is that they are always cyclical.We also stated that because of the various measures being taken through out the world, we did not see this recession lasting beyond twelve or eighteen months. Indeed, as we stand here today, the price reported of yesterday was US$4,119 per tonne.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Sure!

Mr Milupi: It is on its way up. Why then is the Government insisting on removing a tax that was praised by the whole country, whole House, including themselves and whole world, including those that fund us the donors.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Milupi: Why are we being told today here that because we on the left chose to exercise our democratic right in this House when looking at the Windfall Tax issue, then the whole country must be punished? Is that how we are going to rule this country? Are they forcing us here really to continuously mourn for President Levy Mwanawasa?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Is this the legacy they said they were going to maintain?

Mr Chairperson, this not the way things have to be. This is the same Government of Levy Patrick Mwanawasa. This administration is only going to take us up to 2011 and then we shall vote in another one.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Now, the Chair wants to be clear. The explanation by His Honour, the Vice-President, seems to be that this is as far as the Government can go in terms of clarifications. That is according to my understanding and I may be wrong. Even if I allowed three to four more hon. Members to speak, that may not change the position of the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Under these circumstances, I do not see the purpose of us continuing to talk about this and in any case, there is no amendment on the Floor because if there was an amendment then we would be talking about it. In light of that, I am putting the question.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 9 ─ (Repeal of section 64B)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, you read the mood very well that irrespective of how much this side of the House speaks, hon. Members on your right side are not willing to listen.

The Chairperson: Let us not open the debate. Address yourself to Clause 9.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, Clause 9 is at the heart of Windfall Tax. So that I may put the record straight, allow me to state that I acknowledge that whatever we say on this side of the House, the other side will not pay attention to it. That is understood. Nonetheless, the reason for us making our position known is for posterity to judge us well. We want to be seen as people who always put the interest of Zambia first.

In this vain, I would like to say that at the time that the PF objected to the Windfall Tax, it was clearly because this tax was being applied selectively by the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: That is the reason why we called for them to re-think the Windfall Tax programme. A report was presented on the Floor of this House which vindicated us because it showed that Windfall Tax was being collected only from some mines.

What we are saying now is that this matter is not about us versus them. It concerns the 12 million Zambians and their children after them. Therefore, we are saying here, like Hon. Milupi has indicated, that we have already seen signs that metal prices are on the upswing. Why then do we take away Windfall Tax at a time when we should be preparing ourselves for the Zambian people to benefit from their mineral wealth?

Windfall Tax is not punitive in nature because it is only triggered by high prices. With prices that are prevailing right now, no one is being asked to pay windfall tax. We would, therefore, like to propose on this side of the House that it is not you versus us, but it is us here together versus the people. Let us do what the people expect us to do by putting money in their pockets.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Clause 9 – (Repeal of section 64B), stand part of the Bill, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (70)

Mr R. C Banda 
Mr I. Banda 
Mr Bonshe 
Ms Changwe
Mr Chella
Mr Chibombamiliomo
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Ms Chitika
Ms Cifire
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Dr Kalumba
Ms C. M. Kapwepwe
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Mabenga
Mr Machila
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mrs Masebo
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Munkombwe
Dr S. Musokotwane
Mr Musosha
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mwaanga
Mr V. Mwale
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Pande
Mr D. B. Phiri
Professor P. Phiri
Dr Puma
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shawa
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sichilima
Mr Simama
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Taima
Mr F. R. Tembo
Ms V. Tembo
Mr Tetamashimba

Tellers for Ayes: Nil

Noes (49)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr Beene
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Dr Chishimba
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chongo
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kasoko
Dr Katema
Mr Katuka
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Mr Malama
Ms Masiye
Mr Matongo
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Msichili
Mr Mukanga
Mr L. P. J Mulenga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr Munaile
Mr Muntanga
Mrs R. M. Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr D. M. Mwila
Mr B. Mwila
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nsanda
Mrs J. C. M. Phiri
Dr Scott
Mr Sikota
Mr Simuusa
Mr Sing’ombe

Tellers for Noes: Nil.

Abstentions – (Nil)

Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

________{mospagebreak}

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Income Tax (Amendment), Bill

Third Reading on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.

__________
 
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 20 ─ (Loans and Investment ─ Local Government and Housing ─ Physical Planning and Housing Department - K12,582,000,000)

VOTE 90-98(Office of the President – Provincial – K35, 806, 012, 816)

(Consideration Resumed)

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairman, I would like to make a preamble statement pertaining to the views I am going to express.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, let me apologise to my good brother for disturbing the flow of his debate. However, I seek your serious ruling on this important point of order. We were reminded, only yesterday, that points of order must be timely. To avoid this point of order to be overtaken by time, I would like to ask you, Sir, whether the hon. Members on your right are in order to go against the Standing Orders of this House and procedure of Parliament by applauding through clapping loudly, turning this honourable  House into a tavern. I noted, particularly, the Chief whip of the Government, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think your point of order is clear. It is about whether they are in order to applaud in the House or not. I do not think you have to name people.

Clearly, it is not in order. When you agree, the Standing Orders allow you to say, ‘hear, hear!” When you disagree, you say ‘Question!’ Those are the accepted ways. Applauding is not in order.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Long live the Chair.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairman, I was about to make a preamble regarding the statements I will make in this august House.

Mr Chairperson, it is important to note that in this House, we have the right to reply. I tend to think that this right to reply will be accorded to me on behalf of my colleagues on your left side.

Mr Chairperson, in our quest to represent the people of the Southern Province and the people of Zambia in general, we, the Members of the Opposition shall not offer any apology to anybody.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We shall never plead for assistance from anybody. We believe that any responsible Government has an obligation to provide for its people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We, on you left side, are not going to roll on the floor to plead for assistance. We shall never do that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Opposition Members of Parliament are not tools to be used. We are not axes to be used to chop the rights of our people. We are here to fight for the rights of our people and we shall express our views without any fear of anybody. We shall not be forced to respect anybody. We will respect those who deserve the respect.

Mrs Musokotwane: Like the Vice-President.

Mr Mwiimbu: We will not respect people who are going to beg for respect. We are not going to do that.

Mr V. Mwale: Question!

Hon. MMD Members: Who are those?

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us not start something that will derail us. We are discussing provincial Heads. He is from the Southern Province. Do not ask questions. Just listen, otherwise, you will make things difficult.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, when we come to this House to speak on behalf of our people, we do so believing that we are expressing the views of our people who voted us into the Office of Member of Parliament. We believe that we have a duty to speak on their behalf in this House and outside.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, as any responsible hon. Member of Parliament from the Southern Province, I have a duty to defend our people when I realise that pain and anguish is being inflicted on them …

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and we are not going to apologise to anybody. We used to speculate as to who was responsible for the anguish of our people. Fortunately, it was said on the Floor of the House that they have finished with Sichifulo and they will proceed to Kaingu so that they inflict more pain and anguish on our people.

Mrs Musokotwane: The MMD wants to get votes from the Southern Province?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, all of us here have to realise that we have a duty to represent our people. If our people are abused, it is the responsibility of any responsible hon. Member of Parliament to stand up and defend their rights and, we will do that.

     We offer no apology for defending the people of Sichifulo or any other game management area in Zambia. We will never apologise to anybody.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

As Chairperson, I have heard your point. It is very clear. You know that one of our rules in the Standing Orders is against repetition. I got your point on more than two occasions and you have stated that you are not apologising to anybody. Can you, please, move on.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, we are said to be people who are aiding and abetting lawlessness. We are not abetting lawlessness. We believe that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we have to make represent our people both inside outside the House. As a result of the failure to resolve the issues regarding Sichifulo Game Management Area in this House, we had to petition His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia. We expect members of the Government to wait and not comment on an issue that is under consideration by His Excellency.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We believe that it was the most responsible thing to do on our part by appealing to the President of the Republic of Zambia to intervene on behalf of the people of Sichifulo. We are not aiding and abetting any lawlessness. We all know that in a game management area, Zambians are allowed to live side by side with wild animals. That is what the law says and that is what is obtaining in other areas.

Mr Chairperson, we, on your left side, have not been in any Government that has ruled this country. We will not praise ourselves for not being part of that Government. We will praise ourselves for not being part of the any Government because all previous Governments have inflicted so much pain on our people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Our people are being condemned that they are charcoal burners instead being farmers. We should realise that they are now charcoal burners because of the poor policies of the Government. When our people were put under resettlement schemes, they were able and willing to be commercial farmers. However, because of the poor and lopsided policies of the Government, the cattle which they were using for drought power has been wiped out. The people who were able to farm cannot farm any more because they are lack subsidies in agricultural inputs and marketing services. Why should the Government now come out and start condemning those people when in actual fact it is the policies of the Government that has impoverished them? We expected any responsible hon. Ministers to make recommendations so that the lives of our people are uplifted in Southern Province and Zambia, in general, rather than condemning them. That is not correct and it is not acceptable.

Mr Chairperson, we, on your left side, believe that when a responsible Government hears an issue….

Dr Kawimbe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kawimbe: Mr Chairperson, this is my first point of order since I came back to this House. Is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, this…

Dr Kawimbe: … to give the people of the …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister.

That is the kind of behaviour that I do not like. Please, let us observe order in the House. Continue, hon. Deputy Minister.

Dr Kawimbe: … Republic of Zambia, especially, people who live outside Southern Province the impression that this Government does not care for them when in fact, over the last eighteen years, there is no province which has received more relief food and support than that province?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am the Chairperson. Not you, but me. Therefore, order!

We are discussing provincial votes 90 to 98. If there is anything that would be said which the people on my right disagree with, the Government will through the provincial ministers have the opportunity to agree or rebuke whatever is being said. Hon. Member, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, I believe that our single position as the people of Southern Province is that it is
disgraceful to receive relief food.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is embarrassing to receive relief. There is no pride in relief food.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Anyone who is happy that people are receiving relief food is not patriotic. He does not want the lives of our people to be uplifted.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That person is not fit to be in the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we, on your left side, have been pleading with the Government that as it propagates the idea of diversification, it should ensure that its policies of agriculture change so that the lives of the majority of Zambians can be uplifted, but nay, nothing has happened. If anything, the lives of our people in the rural areas and peri-urban areas of urban area …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is only one person on the Floor. Please, consult quietly. I have always said that if you want to consult loudly, get out of the Chamber into the lobbies. Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Sir.

I was saying that the poverty levels in Zambia are not reducing. The poverty levels in rural areas and peri-urban areas of the urban areas of Zambia are rising. They are rising because the Government has not prioritised the issues of poverty reduction. We have been requesting the Government that if it intends to improve the rural areas, it should provide adequate roads and irrigation so that the lives of our people can be uplifted, but nothing has happened.

Look at what has happened to Western Province. Sir, because of the floods that have occurred in the province, the lives of the people have actually been …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

 You people sited near Hon. Mwiimbu know that he is debating and talking about Southern Province and ironically all of you are from the same province, but you are disturbing him. Give him the opportunity to debate so that he can be heard.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, with regard to the issues of irrigation, we have been pleading with your Government to provide water to enable the people of Southern Province irrigate, but year in year out, we only get promises that they will do something about it. 
For the last seven years, no single dam for irrigation has been constructed. We all know that Southern Province is drought stricken but nothing is being done. How do we expect the people of Southern Province to irrigate their crops?

Mrs Musokotwane: Kawimbe, tell us!

Mr Mwiimbu: Do you expect them to use air to irrigate their crops?

Hon. UPND Members: Import water from Luapula!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are appealing to this Government to seriously consider issues of irrigation and animal vaccination. If the disease outbreaks were eradicated in Southern Province, the living standards of our people would have been uplifted.

Sir, we have been talking about the bottom road but today, nothing tangible has happened as regards to that road. As we speak, even the Choma/Namwala Road will not be completed this year or next year. This road has been debated in this House for more than forty years now, but nothing has been done. Every year, there is leap service that is made in this House. We have been talking about the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ). The railway line has been the mainstay of the people of Southern, Central, Copperbelt provinces and other areas that are along the line of rail but alas, it has been destroyed completely. The infrastructure appears as if it was put up in the 17th Century.

Mr Chairperson, the robots which used to exist are no longer there. They are now using human beings to control traffic.

Hon. UPND Member: Locomotive!

Mr Mwiimbu: Surely, is this what we want? Is this the development which we had been looking for when we concessioned the RSZ?

Mr Chairperson, the works on the Kafue/Mazabuka Road are shoddy. We have been seeing the so called contractors working on this road, but nothing serious is happening. We have spent more than K10 billion on that road. Can you go and tell the nation that those people are doing a good job? The answer is no. When we advise and criticise constructively, we are not appreciated. If we do not get appreciated, we will end up using other words which are unparliamentary. Most of the good words are unparliamentary.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan):Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute on the Copperbelt Province Vote. From the outset, I want to state that the money given to the Copperbelt Province is not enough. Last year, the Copperbelt Province received the least in terms of allocation for the roads on the Copperbelt and yet the state of the roads there is terrible. Our roads are in an extremely bad state. We have seen port holes coming up on the Ndola/Kitwe dual carriage way.

Mr Chairperson, I get worried because when you see a problem coming, instead of being proactive, you want to be reactive. The potholes have started and the Road Development Fund (RDA) are not doing anything. They are waiting for those potholes to become swimming pools, that is when they will act. This kind of attitude must come to an end.

Sir, I want to urge the Provincial Minister that as we close on Friday, he should go and instruct his engineers to carry out an inspection on the dual carriage way so that they can mend those potholes. This includes the Chingola/Kitwe Road. The Mufulira Road has is even nothing to talk about. Why should we allow the Mufulira Road to deteriorate to those levels and yet there are leaders there. The District Commissioner, the Provincial Minister and all the leaders who matter use that road. Therefore, why should we let the situation deteriorate? Let me tell you what I do in Luanshya.

Mr Chairperson, in Luanshya, I do not accept potholes on the roads that I use. Even the Town Clerk knows. Immediately I see a pothole on the road that I usually use, I go to the Town Clerk and tell him that I do not want to see that pothole and it would be mended.

Sir, Government leaders tend to have an, ‘I do not care type of attitude.’ We have complained about the bad state of the Kafulafuta Road that connects the main road from Luanshya to Lusaka. That road was done by the Chinese not more than two years ago. Today, when you go there, there is no road to talk about. When we came to this House, we informed the then hon. Minister of Works and Supply, Hon. Simbao about that road. He promised on the Floor of this House that Government was going to give a contract to a company the following year to put another layer on that road. Todate, nothing has happened. You are only waiting for accidents to happen on that road, that is when you will start running. We should change this attitude. As leaders, if you pass through a road and you see something wrong, immediately, you should phone the people concerned to sort out that problem. That way, this country will develop.

Mr Chairperson, it is surprising that when we bring such issues on the Floor of this House, some of the people on your right hand side stand up to defend problem. What do you defend? You must accept that something is wrong. When something is wrong, it is wrong. There is no any other word to replace it with. Wrong is wrong and you should accept. These things will only be sorted out when you accept the problems. Do not always defend what is wrong. We have been reliably informed that money for the Kafulafuta Road has been transferred to Kasaba Bay. If that is true, we are going to declare war against you guys.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! This House should not be a place where war should emanate. Do not declare war in this House.

As I said, the Provincial Ministers will be the last one to speak on these votes. I therefore, advise everybody that if you have a point that you think a Provincial Minister should cover, you can quietly pass it on to him but not interjecting.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, coming to the issue of Konkola Copper Mine,…

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I want the debaters to come to this House with facts. Is the hon. Member debating in order to mislead the nation and the House that funding for Kafulafuta Road has been moved to Kasaba Bay? I want the hon. Member to lay documentation that supports what he has said on the table.

I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! As we debate, let us be factual. If what has been said is not true, which should not be the case, the Provincial Minister will come and correct that.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, I have been informed that the money has been moved. It is up to the Provincial Minister to state whether it is true or not. I am talking about it because I have heard about it. Therefore, I cannot accept that kind of …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have already made a ruling on that matter.

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, let me now look at issues concerning Konkola Copper Mine (KCM). Let me declare interest by stating that I am a supplier to KCM and the mining companies on the Copperbelt. It is very wrong for the Zambians to support operations of foreign investors without them benefitting.
  
Suppliers on the Copperbelt supply wires to the mining companies, but it is now 120 days and KCM has not paid them. This simply means that the suppliers are now funding the operations of KCM. Can we have the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the hon. Provincial Minister go to KCM and find out why they have stopped paying 
their suppliers. What will happen very shortly is that these guys will run away with Zambian suppliers’ money. This situation is extremely dangerous.

Dr Scott: It is already happening.

Mr Kambwili: Please, can we order KCM to pay the suppliers. Why should they get things from Zambians and fail to pay for them? We must be doing everything to protect our fellow Zambians.  When these people came to invest, they said that they had money to run the operations. Where is the money? The company running KCM was given 78 million pounds by the British Government to sustain the operations of the mine when they took over the mine. After an equitable partner was found, they were supposed to pay this money to the Government of the Republic of Zambia. This is the fourth time, I am talking about this issue on the Floor of this House and nobody from the opposite side has made a comment or answered as where the 78 million pounds, which was given by the British Government to the people of Zambia, has gone to.

Mr Chairperson, I hope the hon. Provincial Minister or His Honour, the Vice-President, will put this case to rest by stating who has eaten the 78 million pounds from the British Government.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We do not eat the money. It is who has spent the money, Hon. Kambwili. Use the right words.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Who has chewed the money.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, no, no, that is also not correct.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

We would like to know how the money was spent. We want to know whether KCM has paid the money to the Government. The condition was that they pay this money to the Government so that the money would be used for sorting out problems in the social sector.

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. However, let me advise that it is in the interest of all of us that we finish consideration of these votes. If we are going to delay by making a number of points of order, we will delay ourselves. Some of these things we can let pass. Anyway, you have your point of order.

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairperson is the hon. Member on the Floor, honestly, in order to insinuate that money has been misappropriated without laying any documents on the Table. I need a very serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The serious ruling has already been given. I did say that we are considering provincial heads and that if one is going to make an allegation that is not true, I think that the provincial ministers will have the opportunity to rebut it.As I said it is in our interest that we move fast and pass the Budget so that we start functioning. All the provincial ministers are here and if there is something you feel the provincial minister might forget, you can talk to them.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to come to the problems that Maposa small scale farmers are facing. I have had discussions with the hon. Minister and the previous Permanent Secretary (PS) and I hope that the new PS will take this into the problems that these farmers are facing.Please, on behalf of the people of Maposa in Roan Constituency, do not remove those peasant farmers from the Maposa area. These people were given land by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) ward chairmen and they have been farming on that land since the 1970s. It will be wrong for anybody to remove them and take them to land that is not fertile. There are 3,000 families in the Maposa Zone A and most of them have occupied over 10 hectares of land. Now you want to take them to Zones B and C where they will have only 3 hectares of land.

Mr Chairperson, it must be noted that hon. Members of Parliament from the Copperbelt had appealed to this Government to de-gazette the land where we now have an economic zone in Chambeshi. We stated on the Floor of this House that there were peasant farmers who needed to farm in that area. The Government said that the area was a forest reserve. Today, that land is being given to the Chinese.

Mr Chairperson, as long as I remain hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, I will not accept that area being given to any other foreign investor when our people have been crying for that land, and you have not been given.We do not want what happened in Chambeshi to happen at Maposa. Through you, Sir, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of the Copperbelt to move fast in demarcating that land for those farmers to continue farming in that area.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I must say that I am a very disappointed hon. Member of Parliament from the Copperbelt because this Government has removed Windfall Tax. The people on the Copperbelt have not benefited anything from the mining operations. Windfall tax was one way our people would have benefited from the operations of the mining industry. It is sad that this Government, at the expense of the people, has today amended the law to favour the investors. This is extremely sad. You know that one day, you will not be on that side of the House and we will tell you that you are the people that made our people suffer. The decision you have made today will haunt you for the rest of your lives.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development not to kill the economy of Luanshya by bringing the Chinese.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I have stated before that I will accept the Chinese on condition that they pay our people well, look at the social aspect and deal with the local suppliers and contractors. Only then will I have no problems with them. However, if you are going to bring the Chinese and they behave they way the behaved at Chambeshi, then I do not want to be part of that legacy. You know that at Chambeshi, even toilet tissue written in Chinese “wang wang” is ordered from China.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Is that what you want to bring to Luanshya? We want an investor who will support the local industry and buy toilet paper from Shoprite and not order it from China. When I say the Chinese are not good investors, it is not that I hate them. I want the mine to be given to an investor who will also support local suppliers and contractors and pay better salaries, not the K268,000 that they pay people to go underground for. The investor that has just pulled out was paying a minimum of K1,500,000. We do not want an investor that is going to pay our people slave wages. This is why in China, the economy is very strong, but the people are poor. We do not want the Chinese to transfer that poverty to Luanshya.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I have stated on the Floor of this House that accepting a Chinese investor is importing poverty and exporting wealth.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate. First and foremost, I would like to urge all of us in the House to show some appreciation to what this party in Government is doing in this country.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Secondly, we must appreciate the efforts that President Banda is putting in place to ensure that this country moves forward.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, when we look at Western Province, which is a strong hold of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD)…

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga:…still holds…

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: Even the information that I get from the street tells me that Western Province is an MMD stronghold. Even if you go behind the doors in the dark, you will never make it…

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga:…because we are there. We are there to ensure that this party has the roots in that province.

Mr Chairperson, I am speaking on behalf of the Western Province. The MMD has done a lot of good things in the province. We know very well that you cannot have everything done to perfection. It is not possible. I am sure all of us are aware of the economic problems that the country is going through.

Mr Matongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I am on record of not raising points of order in this House, unless otherwise. Is my brother and honourable friend in order to play the grange of the absurd by praising a Government that has not brought development to 84 per cent of the Western Province? Is he in order? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think different people understand development differently. Hon. Mabenga thinks that Government doing fine. Therefore, he is in order. By way of advice, I do not want what you said to set precedence. Therefore, let us not discuss about parties. Instead, let us zero in on the development in your areas.

Can you continue.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the guidance.

Hon. Opposition Members: UNIP!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I can hear somebody say “UNIP”, but UNIP did very well. My ruling does not exempt UNIP. There is no UNIP or any other party here. Therefore, you should be careful with what you say.

Laughter

May the hon. Member for Mulobezi continue.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I will not hide my political affiliation.

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order!  

Mr Mabenga: I thank you for the guidance.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right. Continue please.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank your or the guidance.

Sir, I have said that with the economic problems that are there in the world, this Government has tried its best to ensure that it brings what it can to the Western Province.

Sir, I will look at the area of education. People out there are hearing me and will still vote for me…

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga:… if you do not know.

Sir, I have a document with me here which I believe every hon. Member has in their possession. This document is talking about education.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga:  Sir, we have seen quite a lot of improvements come in the area of education. We have seen schools that were grass thatched from the time when certain parties were ruling, but have now been refurbished.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Sir, thirty-one new basic schools benefited from the 2008 Budget. About K5.1 billion was spent on these schools. We have seen old schools being given money amounting to K3.8 billion in the new Budget. We are also seeing additional basic schools being assisted in the new Budget. This will cost this Government K7 billion. I think that these are good efforts that are being made by a country which has economic difficulties.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear,

Mr Mabenga: Sir, we have seen the continuation of the construction of teachers’ houses. This will cost this Government K2.4 trillion. This is documented information. We also saw schools being built last year in the Western Province.

Mrs Musokotwane interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not engage him. Please let him debate.

Mr Mabenga: Sir, when I answer back, you say that I should not.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson:   Order! That is why I have stopped her. Therefore, if you are going to repeat mistakes, you will be trouble.

Mr Mabenga: Anyway, it is Regina speaking. That is fine.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I thank, you so much.

Sir, I have also been able to extract from the same document information to the effect that out of the seven districts in that province, there are five high schools that are being built. There are not going to be built, but there are being built.

 Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga:  The total amount which is already being spent on these five schools is K22 billion.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: That is not little money. That is quite a lot of money. Therefore, when I look at such things happening, I see development. People must learn to appreciate when they see such developments taking place in their area.

Sir, let me know look at the construction of roads. Quite a lot of money has been put aside for the construction of a number of roads in the province.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson of Committee: Order!

Mr Mabenga: My worry has been the problem of the people that have been given the jobs. That is my only worry. Government is spending too much money so the contractors need to do a good job. Unfortunately, these…

Hon. Opposition Members: It is your Government.

Mr Mabenga: Contractors are not Government.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is happening? Why do you want to engage him? That is where we go wrong. As you may be aware, I have several options such as me keeping quite, so that I can see how far you will go because that is disorder. The powers that we have are the powers that you yourselves gave us. Therefore, when I take action, you are doing so against yourself. You all must participate in proceedings in an orderly manner. Do not engage him.

May the hon. Member fro Mulobezi continue.

Mr Sichilima: Long live the Chair!

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Munkombwe is the right man for some place.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Sir, I was saying that enough money is being given for certain roads to be worked on in the province. Unfortunately, the workmanship does not seem to be impressive at all. This is why I want to implore the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to ensure that the National Road Development Agency (NRDA) grows some teeth.NRDA must ensure that when people are given a contract, they must do a good. It is important that this is done because the money that is given to contractors belongs to the people of Zambia.

Sir, to support what I am saying, I can give an example of the road from Simungomo to Mulobezi. The company that was given the job of working on that road did not do a good. Therefore…

Business was suspended at 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, …

Mr Muntanga: Let us hear him!

Mr Mabenga: No single word of intimidation will move me.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mabenga: I have got very …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

You may continue.

Mr Mabenga: … I was saying that although we are going through economic difficulties, the Government is trying its best to ensure that services are delivered to the people of Western Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: It is doing just that.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I would now like to talk about the agriculture sector.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Mr Mabenga: Agriculture is very important. The people of Western Province are geared to take part in the food production of this country.

Hon. UPND Members: How?

Mr Mabenga: The crop that is grown in Mulobezi Constituency is doing very well and people from Livingstone and Katombola constituencies eat maize that comes from Mulobezi.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: In fact they live on that maize because they have no fields.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, Hon. Musokotwane.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You eat maize from Mulobezi why do you want to make a point of order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: She has insisted to make her point of order. Mr Mabenga, I think let us allow her to make her point of order.

Mr Sichilima: Regina again!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member who is debating so poorly …

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: … in order to say that the people of Kazungula eat maize from Mulobezi and yet what is found in Mulobezi is only sand and nothing can grow on such land. Is he in order?

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: No! Whatever food you eat from wherever does not matter.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, Mr Mabenga.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: There are Food Reserve Agency (FRA) satellite depots in Mulobezi Constituency.

Major Chizhyuka: With no maize!

Mr Mabenga: People of Mulobezi are able to produce over 50,000 bags of maize.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: The people seated on your left do not do such good work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Left!

Mr Mabenga: There is a lot of running water every where.

Interjections

The Deputy Chairperson: No!

Mr Mabenga: Sir, I was …

The Deputy Chairperson: I agree with you, Mr Mabenga that there are too many interjections from the left side of the House. Can you just give him time to debate then later on you can …

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are disturbing. Can you continue, Mr Mabenga?

Mr Mabenga: I am very disappointed because my points are not flowing …

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: This is not good. This House should accord everybody an opportunity to freely contribute to the debates.

The Deputy Chairperson: I agree with you.

Mr Mabenga: This is not progressive at all.

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue.

Mr Sichilima: Hammer!

Mr Mabenga: Yes. This is not the type of a House we need to have here.

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue!

Mr Mabenga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

I was talking about agriculture. I was saying that Mulobezi Constituency and the whole province at large, is interested in taking part in the production of food for this country. However, in order for them to contribute properly, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operative should ensure that seed is delivered on time.

Western Province like other parts of the country has got two types of areas where food is grown. The first area is where people grow maize that is along the dambos …

Mr Sinyinda: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: … which is harvested in September or October.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: The second area is on the upper land were maize is harvested at the end of this month or April.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Therefore, if people have to grow maize in the dambo areas at the right time, then seed must reach the people as early as June or July.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Then they will be able to grow the maize and it will be ready by September or October. Otherwise, if the good maize seed does not reach them on time, people will be growing the traditional seed which has a low yield. Therefore, it is important that the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives takes note of this delay of seed and fertiliser.

Mr Chairperson, a month ago when I went to my constituency, I noticed that small scale farmers are having problems in accessing the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP). The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives should clearly define who is a small scale farmer.

Actually, I found out that people that benefited from the FSP are not small scale farmers but workers from the Ministry of Agriculture who even have money to buy seed. I thought that small scale farmers are the ones who should be helped through the FSP because they don not have resources.

Mr Kambwili: Hammer! Hammer Chairman!

Mr Mabenga: Therefore, it is important that our good ministry defines who is a small scale farmer properly.

Sir, very quickly, I would like to talk about tourism. Tourism is …

Hon. Members: Order!

Mr D. Mwila crossed the floor.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, can you see what is happening?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, you need to acquaint yourselves to the rules. You cannot pass between the person speaking and the Chair.

Hon. Members: No!!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Mr Mabenga.

Hon. Members: Send him away!

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk the Mulobezi/Livingstone railway line. The Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources should find investors who can extend the services even further. Instead of working on a stretch of twelve or twenty kilometres of the railway line, they can extend it further than that. The rehabilitation of that railway line will help trains and people to move smoothly from Livingstone to Mulobezi.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: It is prudent that the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources also looks seriously at the Liuwa and Sioma/Ngwezi national parks.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: We need the western circuit to be developed so that it contributes to the …

Mr Kambwili: Finally!

Mr Mabenga: Finally, Sir, …

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: … there is an unknown area called Sanchembe …

Mr Kambwili: Order!

Mr Mabenga: … in Mulobezi Constituency which should be looked at and promoted.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the provincial votes.

Sir, governments are made to ensure that the people they serve are comfortable. Therefore, we expect that our Government to do everything possible to meet the needs of the people. Now, if they do well, we shall all be happy and successful. However, if they do not do well, even we, who are not in Government but who are leaders and are here, will also be in trouble because the people in our constituencies will not be very happy.

   So when we speak here, I would like hon. Members on the Government benches to know that it is our duty to urge them on so that they can perform. If you do well, we shall be happy with them, for example when the hon. Minister of Education produces a pamphlet which shows the infrastructure that will be done in the various constituencies across the country, we are supposed to commend him. I have noted from the pamphlet that there is going to be high schools built in Luapula Constituency in 2009, and I am very happy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I will soon be going to the hon. Minister to try to push him to send more teachers and more requisites for the school in Luapula. The Minister should not get tired of me knocking on his door. If you are in leadership, you must be prepared to accept criticism all the time but what we need to do as we criticise you, is to acknowledge when you have done well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, good leadership is not seen when everything is running smoothly, but when there are challenges. Right now there are challenges, not only in this country but in the rest of the world and that much we must understand. Sir, even with difficulties, those who are good leaders are going to achieve great things. We will work with you, but if you are not performing to our expectations or the expectations of the people, do not expect us to be with you all the time, we shall differ with you.

Mr Chairperson, let me now come to the issues concerning Luapula Province since this is a provincial Vote. Sir, economic development is facilitated by communication, infrastructure and roads. In Luapula we have a number of very important roads that connect the provincial centres, districts and other provinces. Within the province I am talking about the Tuta road that starts from the Serenje Turn Off which goes all the way via Samfya, Mansa, Mwense, Kawambwa up to Kashikishi but which now should also continue up to Chiengi. I also talking about the road that comes from Kasama via Luwingu to Mansa and to the Copperbelt. All these roads need to be worked on, if there is going to be economic development in the province. We now have a bridge and the people from that area are grateful for it. However, I have always spoken on the Floor of this august House that the bridge is going to remain a white elephant if we cannot fully utilise it. We can only fully utilise it, if it connects Luapula to the Copperbelt.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, promises were made on the Floor of this august House by the late President and now by the current President to the effect that the roads in the area would be worked on. We have a good bridge but we cannot fully utilise it for economic purposes because the roads in the area are in a bad state. I now want to talk about power. In Luapula now there is a lot of opportunities for mining. We have copper, manganese and all kinds of minerals that are there but we cannot do that because we do not have adequate electric power …

Hon. Member: And yet you have water.

Dr Machungwa: Well, we do have water, but we need electric power. If the Kalungwishi project is developed, we can get power from there, but that is going to take a long time.

    Is it not possible that immediately after we do the roads we put up a power line from Mufulira to connect Luapula so that we can have more power? Right now, we have five mega watts at Musonda Falls. However, there are blackouts all the time. The power is not adequate, sometimes you cannot even use it to power anything. There is no way such an area can develop. Obviously, there are some other areas where solar power can be used. The hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, who is currently not in the House, should take note. We are talking of Luapula and the northern circuit in terms of developing tourism. How are we going to develop tourism when we do not have electricity in the area? These are issues that are supposed to be looked into.

Mr D. Mwila: Wekeshapo.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, let us come to the issue of roads again, before I move on. The Kashikishi/Lunchinda Road has been talked about for the last 8 to 9 years. At one point the money was allocated and the contractor even moved on the site, but I have not seen anything in the budget for that road. Is the Government abandoning that project?

Mr Kambwili: Ba Katele Kalumba.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, now, let me talk about repairing of the road infrastructure. The road beginning from Tuta Road to Samfya all the way to Kashikishi is damaged. Driving from Serenje to get into Samfya used to take us 1½ hours, but now it is taking us about 4½ hours because the road is in such a bad state. Last year, we were informed that a contractor had been identified and that works will begin.

Mr Chairperson, I have heard some rumours that a contractor is currently mobilising equipment. I want the hon. Minister of Works and Supply or Provincial Minister to come and state if this is happening because the people are not happy with the state of the road. It is becoming impossible to travel there.

Mr Chairperson, fishing has been one of the most important economic activities in Luapula. Over the last few years we have been talking about restocking the fisheries. There was a Private Member’s Motion which was brought on the Floor of this House and was moved by my colleague, Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba which stated that Government should restock fisheries not only in Luapula but throughout the country. This Motion was overwhelmingly supported, but we have not seen anything yet. In fact, what we hear is that they were trying to bring vulture fish. I do not know if this is the same fish that was causing some problems in Mweru-Wantipa. Our colleagues in Government should know that restocking of fisheries is extremely important. When we debate we are not just saying things because we want to be heard. If you listen to us and do some of these things, then you will succeed and we shall be happy. You will also be happy and may be you can come back again to the House.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear”!

Dr Machungwa: I have been here 18 years, probably only Hon. V.J. Mwaanga, Hon. Munkombwe and my colleague hon. Katele Kalumba might have been here a little longer. We have been here for a long time, so we know what we are talking about and you better listen.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the issue of livestock. We have a lot of good pasture and dambos, we can develop livestock agriculture, but we are not being supported in that area. Therefore, we are looking forward to a situation where the Chishimba Ranch and other areas  …

UPND Member interjected.

Dr Machungwa: I know it is Chishimba Ranch. Why are you confusing me? I am using a language from Luapula not …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Dr Machungwa: It is Chishimba Ranch. I know this man in agriculture had worked there. So, I am glad it made an impression on him such that he still remembers it. I am obliged.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Sir, we want agriculture to be developed in that area. We need support to be able to get adequate fertiliser. This tendency of saying that such a province is not producing so much in fact makes it difficult for agriculture to improve in certain areas. If there is adequate rainfall, we have enough land to produce a lot of food. So the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives should try to support certain provinces a little bit more. The promises to bringing cow dung to Luapula province have not been fulfilled.

Sir, I would like to now address the issue of water transport in our country which has been neglected. In Luapula Province, especially in my constituency, people rely on water transport. A look at the Budget shows that so little is allocated to this sector and yet, our people have difficulties in moving on water bodies. We need to allocate more money towards water transport in Northern, Luapula, Western and Southern Provinces.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about energy. I have talked about the Kalungwishi Power Station but there are other places like the Mumbotuta Falls that can also be used to generate power.   If we do not start investing in some of these places, we will have a lot of problems in this country.

I have talked about communication but let me now come to one of its aspects of which is extremely important. This is electronic communication. There are some parts of this country where it is impossible to talk to someone on the phone. I can talk to my son who is studying in Canada or speak Chinese with somebody in Beijing or Tokyo but I am unable to talk to my relatives in my constituency. This is not only true for me but many other hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: We know that there are some funds under the Communications Authority of Zambia which can be used to extend phone networks. So, I would like to urge the young hon. Minister of Communication and Transport, who is actually quite aggressive in getting people to work, to look into this issue. Unfortunately the hon. Minister is not here but I hope the hon. Deputy Minister who is here is listening. We expect the Government to be very proactive so that people in other parts of the country can also feel proud to be Zambians like ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, the most important thing is that we have a Budget and we expect our hon. Provincial Ministers to go out there and deliver. We also expect civil servants to perform their functions. Unfortunately, if programmes are not implemented, we shall come and condemn our colleagues on your right because they are holding the reigns of power right now. We will support them according to the extent that they are willing to support us so that we work and succeed together. A symbiotic relationship whereby we fall and stand together should be there even as we fight for power because we do not know who is going to be sitting in the seats on your right next time around. So I would like to urge our colleagues to work as hard as they can so that they can succeed and leave the Government better than it is when we take over.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa left his microphone on.

The Deputy Chairperson: Switch off your microphone.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to say a few words on this very important expenditure head. Indeed, it is nice that I am speaking after Dr Machungwa since he has been pleading for roads in his constituency, I would like him to join me in pleading for roads for Chilanga Constituency.

Laughter

Mr Magande: Without doing that, there will be good roads in Luapula Constituency but he will not be able to get his chickens out of his farm in Chilanga.

Laughter

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, Chilanga is a very important constituency. It is part …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: The hon. Member of Parliament for Chilanga Constituency who is debating so well and is my namesake is saying that I have a lot of roads in my constituency. He is forgetting that in my constituency there are canals. Is he in order to say that I have good roads when all I need are canals in my constituency?

The Deputy Chairperson: Since the hon. Dr Machungwa has adequately debated his point of order, we will ask Mr Magande to continue.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that Chilanga Constituency is one of the most important constituencies in Zambia. It is in Lusaka Province which is the capital city of Zambia. Chilanga  boasts of being home to some of the prominent hon. Members of this House, as I have already indicated, Hon. Machungwa and Hon. Hachipuka. I do also have hon. Ministers here and I do not think there are any other constituencies which have got a Minister of Finance and National Planning, the Minister of Works and Supply, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the hon. Deputy Minister for Youth, Sports and Child Development and all these prominent members look to me to assist them with their development.

Laughter

Mr Magande: I had, of course, forgotten the Chairperson for the mighty MMD Party (Mr Mabenga).

Mr Chairperson, what are all these people looking for? If for example the Head of State is to arrive at the airport, perhaps at midnight, Hon. Pande is summoned to rush to the airport, he will need a good for him to get their on time.

When it is time to prepare the last notes on the budget, Hon. Musokotwane needs to get to the ministry as quickly as possible. The Minister can only get their in good time if he uses a good road.I want, therefore, to say that in order for all these prominent Government Members’ work to be effective, I need very good roads in my constituency.

Mr Chairperson, Chilanga Constituency borders some seven other constituencies, but most of the people living in Chilanga Constituency work in town. These are chief executives of various institutions, heads of department in various institutions and indeed, their major concern is the bad state of the infrastructure in the constituency. Those who might not know, most of the land around the Lusaka City was actually farmland. As the town and the population began increasing, people started leaving the city centre for the outskirts. When most areas in the outskirts of Lusaka were made up of farms, the provision of feeder roads was under the Ministry of Rural Development then, where I was working in the early 1970s.

However, as the use of land has been turned from horticultural and agriculture to residential, it seems we have forgotten these roads and because of that, there is a problem of road infrastructure in Chilanga Constituency. Unless we develop this infrastructure, it will be very difficult for very productive agriculture to take place in the area. Therefore, as we discuss this budget, I am going to rely on my good hon. Minister of Lusaka Province, Hon. Mangani to make sure that the new equipment that has arrived can, indeed, help me to open up this area for the people that are settled there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, there are some very large farms in Chilanga Constituency. Some of the farms are as big as 10,000 acres, but they are too close to compounds such as Kanyama, Matero and Chawama where most of our people now are being choked up and they would like to leave this city life to go to the outskirts and get fresh air. Unfortunately, it has been difficult for the Government to acquire land for public use. I note that in the estimates of revenue and expenditure under Lusaka Province, money has not been allocated for the purchase of land. Now, if we want to acquire some land from people who have say 10,000 hectares, we can only do this by either compulsory acquisition or buy land from the land owners. I have been pleading with the former hon. Minister of Lands, Mr Machila, who is a lawyer that we use the powers in the Constitution to get some of this unutilized land so that we can sub-divide it for our  people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Unfortunately, it has proved very difficult to do. In fact, land owners are no longer farmers…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: … and so we should sub-divide this land and give it to the people. Without doing this, the land problems in Kanyama will continue and yet you have pieces of land next door that can be properly used for the resettlement of the people from that compound.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I want to plead that perhaps out of all the laws that we have, we look at the law on land. Of course, we cannot apply it to the Barotseland because I know my colleagues are very difficult when it comes to land issues, but for the land that is already under title, let us use the law to try to get it so that we can have equitable distribution of the land in the peri-urban areas. Once this is done, we will then be able to produce all the food needed for the people in Lusaka City.

The other problem of land in this area is the question of education facilities. For the last few years I have been a Member of Parliament, I have been pleading with the hon. Minister of Education to help me with education facilities because most of the large-scale farmers or commercial farmers who are around can afford to take their children to Nkwazi International School in town or Mpelembe School on the Copperbelt or to Bwengu School in Mazabuka, but the farm workers do no have that capacity. We have a very large population of Zambians in this area living close to the city but cannot access education. The hon. Minister of Education has promised me education facilities, but I have to find land for the schools to be built. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get land in my constituency. However, let me say that I am happy that last year, we managed to get some Government land which was also reserved for some other use, but the hon. Minister of Education is now constructing a high school there, at a place called Westwood.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Health facilities are also lacking in my area. For health facilities, I have good friends all over whom I have known for a long time who can donate and are prepared to support me in building the health centres. Unfortunately, we cannot find land because of the way land is owned in Zambia, even those who own 10,000 hectares cannot give away even five hectares for something like a health centre.

Mr Chairperson, I am a strong believer in decentralisation. I recall in 1971 as a young graduate working in Southern province as an Assistant Development Officer, I was responsible for development. During that time, I knew all the roads in that province from Livingstone to Mazabuka because the provincial administration was responsible for the entire infrastructure development.

I plead that we look at the issue of decentralisation and try to get it working by giving powers to the provincial secretariats. I also request His Honour the Vice-President that after this is done, the Provincial Deputy Ministers are made full Cabinet Ministers …

Hon. Provincial Deputy Ministers: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: … so that they are able to come to Lusaka and account for what is happening in their provinces.

Hon. Provincial Deputy Ministers: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Therefore, we will have people that will be interested …

Interruptions

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I thought there was a rule …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is a lot of strong support from my right.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us give him chance to make his point. You may continue.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that decentralisation can work and we should make it work. The only way that we can make the people on the spot accountable is to make them as near as possible to the decision makers. Therefore, if you have a Cabinet Minister for the Northern Province who sits on the same table with the Minister of Finance and National Planning, he will understand how the resources of the country are shared.

Hon. Provincial Deputy Ministers: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: He will not take home a different story.

Mr Chairman, let me say that my constituency is extremely important. I am happy that my voters come from all over the world and from different provinces.

Mr Milupi: Voters from all over the world?

Mr Magande: They do not ask where their candidate comes from. They ask where their candidate has been. They want their candidate to account for what he has done. In other words, they ask for the foot steps and prints when you want to lead them. These are all very prominent citizens in Zambia.

Therefore, when I was asked for the foot prints, it was an honour for me that I was even able to tell some of them that I was a planner when we translocated Kapeta from the Lake Tanganyika to Kariba.

Mr Sichilima: Yes, I remember.

Mr Magande: When Mununshi Banana Scheme was expanded, I went there to look at the land. When we were starting the Ngoli Coffee Scheme, I went there in the bush.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Aah! Are you campaigning?

Mr Magande: Sir, a constituency like Chilanga requires somebody with those kinds of footprints.

I want to say to the people of Chilanga that I am here to serve them and I will tell them where I have been and they will find my footprints.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, if you want to take investors to the Eastern Province, they can either go by air or drive through the Great East Road. That is the beginning of the problems that the province faces.

The Great East Road has been problematic for quite some time. We have, time and again, appealed to this Government to do something about this road. I hope you will engage serious contractors this time around to repair it.The condition of this road leaves much to be desired.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There are too many people talking. Please, consult quietly. You may continue.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: I thank you Sir. I wish to say that before tourists reach Chipata, I can assure you they will have passed through numerous potholes and this will lead them to conclude that the Eastern Province is not a good tourist destination. Therefore, if this Government is serious about promoting tourism in the Eastern Province, it must first and foremost attend to the Great East Road. That is the first cry of the people of the Eastern Province.

Hon. Opposition Member: Tell them!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: After you work on the Great East Road, we will obviously expect you to conclude the works which you have promised to do by tarring the Chipata-Mfuwe Road. That is another road that deserves priority attention in Eastern Province. For obvious reasons, Mfuwe is a good tourist destination. In there, we have a lot of monkeys too.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Those that like hunting monkeys, are welcome.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda: The only problem is that the road is in a bad state.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Iwe siulima iwe.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I rarely stand on points of order.

Mr V. Mwale: For sure!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, you will recall that during the earlier debate, there was a mention of rats invading Ndola Central Hospital and …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: … we are looking for solutions.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: We thought the solutions were nearby, but the people did not care to say them. There was total silence in this House.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Now, all of sudden, at a mention of a monkey, …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: we can see the faces of hon. Members from Eastern Province beaming with concentration.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Address the Chair!

Mr Mbulakulima: This has got nothing to do with the Chair.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You will be out of Order.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, are they in order to burst into uncontrollable laughter just at the mention of a ‘monkey’.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: No, they are not in order because the monkey is supposed to be a delicacy somewhere.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, they are not in order, continue, Mr Banda.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: I thank you very much, Sir.

It is a pity that Ndola Central Hospital has a lot of rats, but in Eastern Province, we have a lot of mice.

Laughter

Hon. Members: There is a difference between the two.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Now, those that know the queen’s language very well have advised me that there is a marked difference between rats and mice.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: In local language it is Koswe na mbeba.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Rats and mice.

Mr Chairperson, my appeal is that the road linking Mfuwe to Chipata deserves utmost attention from this Government because when the President opened Parliament, he stressed that this Government was going to invest heavily in tourism and one of the most attractive tourist destinations is Mfuwe, in Eastern Province.

In addition to the Chipata-Mfuwe Road, another road that deserves urgent attention is the Lundazi-Chipata Road. This road is in a terrible condition and yet, a lot of money has been paid to various contractors for work that cannot be seen. This time around, we urge this Government to engage serious contractors to ensure that Chipata is linked to Lundazi. For your own information, Lundazi has also got game parks. We have got Luambe and Nyika game parks. There is another area which is forgotten and I am happy that hon. Namugala is Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources mentioned it. This is the Nyika Plateau which has got the Nyika Game Reserve.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: This is one tourist attraction that deserves attention and necessary funding. Not only that, the source of the Luangwa River whose source is in the Mafinga Hills in Isoka-East Constituency is in itself a tourist attraction. I urge this Government through the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to find funds to promote that tourist attraction.

The Chadiza-Chipata Road is yet another road that deserves the attention of this Government. I know that we now have a Deputy Minister from Chadiza and I think it is about time that I started talking about this road because my brother is in Government now.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: This road has been in a deplorable condition since Zambia become independent.

The Chairperson: Order! 

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progressing reported)

________

The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 26th March, 2009.