Debates- Thursday, 26th March, 2009

Wednesday, 08 April 2009

DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 26th March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

KAZUNGULA BRIDGE PROJECT

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Botswana (GOB) and Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) are putting great emphasis on the rehabilitation and construction of highway structures, including bridges in order to ensure accessibility to communities and services. Thus, it is desirous that a bridge be erected over the Zambezi River at the site of the present Kazungula Pontoon on the border between Botswana and Zambia. The bridge will certainly improve communication between the two member States and all other Southern Development Community (SADC) member countries.

The Kazungula Bridge is also a priority project for Zambia in line with the strategic goal stated in our National Development Plan (NDP) of replacing all pontoons in the nation with bridges. By the same token and spirit, both SADC and Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) regard the project as a demonstration of good bilateral and multilateral co-operation among African neighbours.

The scope of services are divided into three parts

(i) economic feasibility and detailed design of the bridge and border facilities;

(ii) feasibility and detailed design of other corridor related facilities; and

(iii) trade and transport facilitation study progress.

Progress

Mr Speaker, following the delays and further consultations over the initial project arrangement, Botswana and Zambia made a decision to withdraw from the original Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) of August, 2006 signed by the three member States of Botswana, Zambia and Zimbabwe. These delays threatened Botswana and Zambia to lose the grant that the African Development Bank (ADB) had extended to them. The ADB approved the adjustments to the arrangement from a multilateral to a bilateral project. There was a basic commitment that the proposed alignment of the bridge will not pass over any disputed territory and that the project will be carried out in accordance with the original objectives of further enhancing smooth connectivity as approved by the bank group.

When the notices of withdrawals matured, a new MOU between the Republic of Zambia and Government of the Republic of Botswana on the Kazungula Bridge, was signed on 24th July, 2008 at Sun Hotel in Gaborone, Botswana.

Mr Speaker, as a result of signing this bilateral MOU, a new feasibility study contract was signed between Zambia and Botswana’s clients, a consortium between BCEOM/Jean Muller International on 24th July, 2008. The consultancy services were for the feasibility and detailed design of the Kazungula Bridge, border facilities and corridor studies between Botswana and Zambia. The project will cost Euro 2,430,157, with provisional administrative cost of USD350,000 over a period of fourteen months.

The consultant’s contract for the design of Kazungula Bridge and border facilities was signed on 24th July, 2008 after a delay of six months. There was a provision for a sixty day mobilisation period to commencement. The start date was 22nd September, 2008, but since the project was initially scheduled to be signed on 26th February, 2008, the consultant requested for the project to start in September, 2008. The reason for extension was that the team leader who was earmarked for the assignment had found another job and more time was needed to replace him with another person with the same qualification or better.

The consultant has established an office in Lusaka. The team leader led a group comprising the bridge expert and hydrologist, who visited the site between 14th and 17th October, 2008. The works are on course and the consultant has since submitted the inception and conceptual design which have been approved by the two member States.

The Governments of Botswana and Zambia have also requested the consultant to prepare a technical and financial proposal for the inclusion of a railway in the bridge design, border facilities layout, economic, corridor and transport facilitation studies.

The two member States see the construction of the bridge as an opportunity to provide for a further railway connection between Botswana and Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the august House may wish to know that the Government of the Republic of Namibia has demonstrated a lot of good will towards the project by allowing the consultant to use and work in their territorial waters if need be. In addition, they have no objection in the bridge traversing their waters. However, they have now indicated their intent to join the project as stakeholders so that the bridge can be linked to their island of Impalila on the Zambezi River. As soon as the Government receives this communication in writing at the ministerial level, it will be presented to Cabinet for the necessary approval. The studies and design were scheduled to finish in September, 2009, but with the inclusion of the railway component, the consultant has requested for an additional two months to the original contract period. The detailed design will thus be completed in November, 2009. Thereafter, we shall proceed to the next stage of construction.

My ministry shall keep the momentum and will update the House at every opportunity when major successes have been achieved.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! … on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Works and Supply.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, this project has been going on for the past forty years. May I have a guarantee from the hon. Minister that it will now be implemented?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, there are no records to indicate that a feasibility study was carried out forty years ago. The only feasibility study I am talking about is the one that has been initiated by this working Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I remember attending one of the meetings on the same bridge when I was hon. Deputy Minister. Negotiations were started a long time ago. In this vein, I would like to find out how much the Government has spent on all the feasibility studies that have been conducted on this bridge from inception to-date as well as how much the bridge is going to cost at the moment.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, my statement was related to the current feasibility study and the progress that we are making. Like I have said, if there have been other feasibility studies before, we are not aware about them and they are not available because if they were, there would be no need for another feasibility study.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: How much is the estimated cost?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I indicated that the project will cost 2.4 million Euros with an administrative cost of US$350,000, inclusive of the feasibility study.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, initially, the crossing was supposed to link Zambia and Zimbabwe and the feasibility study on this was conducted. However, after the failure by Zimbabwe to come on board, we thought of doing the Namibia route. Would the hon. Minister agree with me that the earlier negotiations were part of the same project?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the initial discussions were between three countries, namely Zambia, Zimbabwe and Botswana. When a problem cam about, Zambia and Botswana decided to go it alone, leaving out Zimbabwe. The African Development Bank has agreed to fund the project in its new form as opposed to what it was before. It was a multilateral project but now it is bilateral.

Therefore, I am not aware of any feasibility study that was carried out between the three countries. The initial discussions were that the three were going to work together, but problems developed and Zimbabwe dropped out. The latest development is that the Namibians would like to come on board and have allowed us to use their waters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told us the amount of money that is going to be spent on the construction of the bridge. With the cost of building materials going up, are we likely to see a situation whereby the Government is going to run out of money and start waiting for some donors to assist us in completing the bridge or is the amount the hon. Minister has told us here enough to complete the bridge?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, this project is being funded by the African Development Bank. If there are any adjustments in the core structures, of course this will be communicated to the African Development Bank. If there will be need for the two countries to put in some money, this will also be communicated to this House later but for now, we are sure that this money is adequate for the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, since it is the Government’s policy to ensure that all pontoons are replaced, I would like to find out when we are going to have the Mbesuma and Safwa pontoons replaced.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that we are taking serious consideration of that except that we have agreed that in this year’s Budget, we are going to concentrate on projects that are already running because if we do not do that, we are going to abandon the existing projects. I think he knows very well that a feasibility study was planned for the Mbesuma Bridge and we hope that funds permitting, we will carry out that project as well.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to inform this House what the anticipated date of project completion will be, all things being equal.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we hope that if the feasibility study is finished this year, implementation stage would follow, thereafter. Therefore, it is not possible for me to give a specific timeframe for that. The consultants that are working on the report will be able to guide us on the period it will take.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, granted that the project will cost about 2.4 million Euros, may we know the contribution that Zambian taxpayers are going to make towards that cost?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I am not able to give the exact figure at the moment but since it is a loan that has been given to the two countries as members of SADC, we will be informed along the way on how much Zambia will contribute to the project. However, it must be made clear that it is a loan that will be given to the two countries and with the coming on board of Namibia, it is possible that the cost may even be mitigated a little more.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the cost of 2.43 million Euros appears to be too low for construction of a bridge across the Zambezi River. Could the hon. Minister make it clear that this cost he has mentioned is not actually for the construction of the bridge but is possibly for the feasibility study.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I talked about a feasibility study. As for the main project, as soon as the consultants have finished, they will give us the details of how much it will cost to construct the bridge.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

REASONS FOR CHANGE OF PASSPORTS

206. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Home Affairs what reasons necessitated the change of passports almost every decade.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the change of passports almost every decade is necessitated by matters relating to standards and regulations necessary for aviation safety and security. Aviation environmental protection is regulated by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), a specialised United Nations agency representing 188 nations, Zambia inclusive.

The ICAO standards and regulations include the Machine Readable Passport (MRP) format and characteristics which officially became a worldwide standard in the 1990s.

The ICAO standards for the electronic digital component and biometrics were formally adopted in July, 2005. ICAO has been working in the area of biometrically enhanced machine readable travel documents to make the passport more secure and difficult to forge.

The change of passports every decade is necessitated by the new world order with new threats, opportunities and ideologies that address global challenges of growing financial fraud, illegal migration, identity theft and international terrorism.

Other factors contributing to the frequent change of passport include:

(i) change of technology and paper used for production and printing of passport books; and

(ii) security consideration in the aviation industry due to forged passports.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how students who are outside the country are going to renew their passports?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Hamusonde for this question because it has enabled us to explain why we have been changing passports every decade and I think it has been adequately answered.

Regarding the students abroad, as Zambians resident abroad, there are two ways of doing this. The first one is to implore the services of the nearest mission abroad. We have about twenty-seven or thirty missions abroad and those are utilised to get the passport forms filled in and then deposited at the mission abroad who, in turn, will send them to Lusaka using the services provided by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. When passports are processed, they are sent back the same way.

The second vehicle they can use is to use channels of friends and relatives to bring passport forms already filled in to the passport office. These can then collect and send back the passports to Zambians and students abroad.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, in the recent past, we heard how a Zimbabwean national was caught with a Zambian passport; a passport that we were meant to believe by the then Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Lieutenant-General Ronnie Shikapwasha was difficult to forge. Would the hon. Minister explain to me how many of such cases have been recorded since the commencement of the renewal exercise for the new passport?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I want to say that I associate myself fully with the report given by my predecessor, Hon. Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha, regarding the quality of the passport that we are issuing today. It is very difficult to forge, the features are of a very high level security nature and it is made of very high standards.

The case you have cited of a woman travelling into Zimbabwe is being investigated, but I have no idea how she acquired the passport, as it may not have been forged. It could have been that she turned up with details purporting to be a Zambian and then she was issued the passport as a Zambian citizen. This meant she did not forge it, but was given and the case now turns on who assisted her to get the document. That is what we are trying to find out.

However, I want to assure the House that this passport is of a very high quality and we do not think that anybody can forge it; not within the next two or three years.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker it is a requirement now that to obtain this passport, one has to be interviewed in person. Would the hon. Minister clarify how possible that is if relatives take the passport forms to the passport office.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I admit that this requirement is there, but only where there is suspicion that a particular person lodging documents does not see to be a Zambian. If this is the case the person is interviewed to get further details.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether students, especially those who are abroad are going to pay the same fee for the passport as we are paying back home, bearing in mind that they are students?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I would like to confirm that students or non students, women and men are all paying the same fee. There is no exception with regard to students. They too have to pay the same amount.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, there is an arrangement where people living along the borders are allowed to get a temporary travel documents which they can use for a day to cross into the neighbouring country and back. Is this arrangement still in place, hon. Minister?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the arrangement is still in place. We have a border pass designed to assist Zambians along the border to cross into neighbouring countries to see relatives and come back after a day or two. There is a geographical limit and we cannot go beyond it. For instance, if one got a boarder pass from Kasumbalesa he or she cannot reach Lusaka, but can use it within the Copperbelt and back to the Democratic Republic of Congo.

I thank you, Sir.

SHANG’OMBO HOSPITAL

207. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when Shang’ombo Hospital became operational;

(b) how much was spent on the building at (a) above; and

(c) what the nurse and doctor staffing levels at the hospital above were.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, Shang’ombo Hospital has never been operational as it has been under construction since August, 2004. The contract was terminated in February, 2008 after the contractor deserted the site for over a year. The Government intends to retender the works to choose a new contractor as soon as the dispute with the contractor (Tomorrow Investments Ltd) has been resolved.

The estimated total cost of contracting Shang’ombo Hospital is K14 billion. However, at the time of termination of the contract with Tomorrow Investment Ltd, K9 billion was spent and about 70 per cent of the works had been completed.

Mr Speaker, it is not possible to give the nurse and doctor staffing levels at the hospital because the facility is not yet operational and no health worker has been posted there yet.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the construction of Shang’ombo Hospital has taken almost five years and at the Official Opening of the Second Session of the Tenth National Assembly, the late President Mwanawasa announced that Shang’ombo Hospital was operational. I would, therefore, like to find out who misled the late President because there has never been an apology to state that the late President misled the nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, we are correcting the record at the moment, Shang’ombo has never been operational. It is still under construction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, there should be reasons the contractor abandoned the site. Was the contractor’s calibre below a par thereby unable to cope with the work demanded by Shang’ombo Hospital?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, there are rules and regulations set by the Ministry of Works and Supply when signing a contract. One of the conditions is that once a contractor deserts the site for a month without any reason, the contract is terminated. The reasons Tomorrow Investments abandoned the site for a month have not yet been advanced and it is for that reason that the contract was deemed terminated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I believe there are conditions in any contract. If a contractor fails to meet the obligations, the contractor is taken to task. Could I find out from the hon. Minister whether this contractor who deserted the site has been taken to task to recover part of the money paid to him? How much has the Government lost in completing and retendering the project?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, this is an issue being handled by the Ministry of Works and Supply. They terminated the contract. The contractor has challenged this and we shall inform the House about the outcome. However, at the moment, the contract also provides for arbitration and the case might go that route.

As regards the money that has been lost, Mr Speaker, the Government has only paid for the work that has been done so far.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the Office of the Head of State is extremely important and statements emanating from that office are generally considered as gospel truth. Statements are posted on the State House and Parliament websites and accessed by people globally. In this particular case, we have been told that the President made a misleading statement on the status of Shang’ombo Hospital. Can I find out the circumstances under which the Head of State made such a misleading statement, not only misleading this House but also every citizen of this global village?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I do not understand the excitement of Hon. Lubinda.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: I have said it here that Shang’ombo Hospital has not been completed, but is under construction. I visited the hospital. If Hon. Lubinda went to Shang’ombo today, from a distance, he would think that the hospital is completed when it is not.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: The hospital is still under construction and no one misled the President. The hospital is still under construction and it will take, maybe, another year to complete it. This is the status of the hospital and I do not understand what the problem is.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Clerk will read the order of the day.

Laughter
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BILLS

SECOND READING

THE ONE-STOP BORDER CONTROL BILL, 2009

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the core objective of the One-Stop Border Post is to enhance efficiency in inter-border agency co-operation and co-ordination in a manner that will facilitate the smooth flow of trade in terms of exports and imports between countries and ultimately within the region. In this regard, this Bill has been prepared in such a way that it provides for implementation of not only the Chirundu One-Stop Border Post, but also other such arrangements that may be introduced in the future.

Simply put, Mr Speaker, the effective implementation of the One-Stop Border Post should translate into the reduction in the cost of doing business, as congestion at the border post is minimised, duplication of efforts of border agencies at the border post are done away with and the cost effective and efficient processing systems are put in place to cut back on waiting time. As such, the Bill provides a co-ordinating legal framework for relevant legislation that specifically relates to the border controls.

Mr Speaker, let me assure hon. Members that it is in the interest of the Zambian business community and citizens at large that the Bill is enacted. Efficient border processes, systems and procedures are a critical success factor in attaining and sustaining business competitiveness, improving social welfare and ultimately foster economic development.

Mr Speaker, having signed a bilateral agreement on the One-Stop Border Post and reviewing the relevant legislation, it is apparent that the current legislation does not provide for enforcement of border controls beyond the Zambian territory necessary for the successful implementation of the One-Stop Border Post.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that our counterpart to the bilateral agreement on the One-Stop Border Post, Zimbabwe, has already passed the enabling law providing for extra territorial operations. This law was enacted in 2008. It is, therefore, important for Zambia to enact this law to pave way for the implementation of the Chirundu One-Stop Border Post Initiative and enable our business community, the consumers and the public at large to begin to reap the benefits thereof.

In conclusion, in the light of increasing challenges being faced by our business community as a result of the current global financial crunch, it is important for this House to take advantage of any initiative and programmes that mitigate the negative impact arising from the crunch.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, the Committee considered the One-Stop Border Control Bill, 2009 whose objects are to:

(a) provide for the conclusion of agreements by the Republic of  Zambia with neighbouring states on the implementation of the One-Stop Border Post arrangements;

(b) give effect to provisions of arrangements on the One-Stop Border Post;

(c) authorise the application of the Laws of Zambia and the laws of the adjoining state in the One-Stop Border Post; and

(d) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, your Committee support the Bill. They believe that it is progressive and will facilitate trade and, in part, reduce the cost of doing business in Zambia.

In supporting the Bill, they would like to highlight some of the issues that your Committee believe will help in the smooth implementation of the Bill. It is important to note that the Bill will not only apply to the Chirundu Border, but also to other borders where the Government might decide to enter into similar arrangements. Other borders might even involve three adjoining states. This, therefore, calls for a good law that will be easily applied to other areas.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are displeased that the Bill was brought to Parliament for enactment after the bilateral agreement on the establishment of the One-Stop Border Post had reportedly been signed by the Government of the Republic of Zambia and the Republic of Zimbabwe on 27th August, 2007.

Your Committee say this, Sir, because the signatories to the agreement were not identifiable by title, as representatives of the Government. In addition, your Committee expected to find emblems for the two adjoining parties on the agreements as is usually the case, but the agreement shows only one emblem for Zambia. This raises a question as to whether this agreement is, indeed, genuine.

Sir, apart from this, your Committee note that the signing of the bilateral agreement before the law is passed is procedurally wrong. This has also given rise to a number of inconsistencies between the Bill and what is contained in the bilateral agreement.

Mr Speaker, in Clause 2, Sub Clause 1, the President is empowered to enter into an agreement with a neighbouring state or territory with the view to facilitating trade. The President is also given power to delegate this responsibility to the Minister pursuant to Sub Section (1).

Sir, your Committee under wonder what power the Minister signed the bilateral agreement on the establishment of the One-Stop Border Post before the law takes effect. Clearly, the Government erred by signing this agreement. Therefore, your Committee recommend that the bilateral agreement between Zambia and the Republic of Zimbabwe be nullified and the Government enters into fresh negotiations. This will give the Government an opportunity to align the agreement with the law.

Further, your Committee recommend the deletion of Clause 8 of the Bill which provides for pre-existing agreements to remain in force at the coming into operation of the Act. This was provided for largely to ensure that the bilateral agreement remains in force. Since this agreement is a nullity, this provision is, therefore, unnecessary.

Mr Speaker, your Committee note that Clause 5 of the Bill empowers the enforcement of the criminal laws of Zambia within the control zone where there is an act or omission by a Zambian or a resident of Zambia only. However, this is limiting the application of the act or omission to citizens or residents of Zambia.

Sir, it is common knowledge that the border at Chirundu is not only used by Zambians and Zimbabweans, but also by other nationals as well. This arrangement will continue even with the implementation of the One-Stop Border Post. In view of this, your Committee recommend that Sub Clauses 1 and 2 be amended to include persons entering Zambia. Foreigners who commit offences while in the control zone of the One-Stop Border should equally be arrested.

I wish to conclude by thanking all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for their valuable input. I also wish to thank you, Mr Speaker, for affording your Committee an opportunity to consider the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, to start with, I support the Bill with amendments as explained by the Chairperson.

Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilanga yesterday traced his footprints and I wan to do the same. The Chirundu Border facilities project was my last project. Therefore, my footprints are still there. I was the country Coordinator for Zambia. I remember that this idea was brought up by the Japanese in 1995. However, because we were not ready at the time, this idea was shot down at by both Zambia and Zimbabwe. I am saying that this is not a new idea. I think the conditions are now ripe to have such facilities.

Mr Speaker, I also note from the report that it is a pilot project. Therefore, the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA), the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and the entire Africa is watching.

Sir, the other issue I would like to talk about is the slow pace of implementation. What has been completed so far should have been completed seven years ago, in 2002. This means that we are seven years behind schedule. At the moment, the project should have reached Phase II which should have involved the expansion of the township. In Phase II, the idea was to have Chirundu as a modern town put up by Zambians, but this has been delayed by seven years.

I support this Bill because it reminds me of my last footprints.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Sir, I would like to state, from the outset, that I am a member of the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour, and therefore, the speech delivered by my Chairman is one that I support entirely. However, let me add a few words to what the Chairman said.

Firstly, the dismay of your Committee at the way that the Government handled the agreement between Zimbabwe and Zambia is as a result of our Committee questioning whether the Executive respects the separation of powers between the Executive and the Legislature. We say this, Sir, because the Bill that is before the House today suggests that no agreement on one stop border posts would be entered into, serve through that Act of Parliament, and yet the Government had already entered into an agreement with Zimbabwe in 2007.

Sir, this questions the role of the Legislature in formulating laws that should govern this country. We think that unless Parliament protects it own integrity and we, gathered in this august House protect ourselves and maintain our roles as legislators, the Executive will run away with making this House a rubber stump, which we do not want it to be.

Mr Speaker: Order! The phrase ‘rubberstamp’ has been ruled out of order in this House, time and time again. I know how you feel, but find another phrase, please.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I thank you for your guidance.

I am very happy that you know how I feel and I am sure this is how everybody else in this House feels, that the Government must ensure that they do not …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … implement before they allow this Parliament to debate.

This House is the only one in this country that has powers to legislate and no one else.  If the Government is going to implement and bring legislation later, it is the same as putting the cat before the horse. We do not want this House to be demeaned in that manner. That is the reason your Committee is calling for the nullification of the agreement that was entered into between the Zambian and Zimbabwean governments.

The second reason, like my Chairman pointed out, is the question of inconsistence between the agreements and the law. Your Committee were privileged to look at the law from Zimbabwe. That law is a replica of the Zambian law that we are intending to pass now. However, both pieces of legislation are at variance with some provisions in the agreement. We do not think that we, in this House, should allow our law to be superseded by an agreement that was entered into by people we cannot even identify for that matter. We are lucky, in Zambia, that the person who signed their name did so in a manner that we can read it, Felix Mutati. However, it does not say whether this Felix Mutati is Minister of Labour and Social Security, Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, Minister of Mines and Minerals Development or whether Felix Mutati is a Deputy Minister of a ministry.

Sir, on the other hand, the person who signed or is purported to have signed on behalf of the Zimbabwean Government, just scribbled on the agreement. It is not even possible to tell whether this person exists or not, let alone trace who it is.

Mr Speaker, besides that, the inconsistency that I am referring to emanates from Article 6 (1) of the agreement which is an annex to the report. It says, and I quote:

“Subject to Article 3.9, the law enforcement agency of the host state shall be responsible for maintaining law and order in the control zone”.

Mr Speaker, this means that the control zone shall be divided into two. One part shall be a control zone lying on the Zimbabwean territory and the other shall be a control zone lying on the Zambian territory. According to this Article in the agreement, the law enforcement agency of Zimbabwe shall enforce the law on the control zone lying on the Zimbabwean territory irrespective of who is on that territory, be it a Zimbabwean, Zambian or a citizen of another country besides the two countries.

Sir, in the Bill that is before you, the hon. Minister suggests that for a Zambian citizen or a resident of Zambia, even when they are on the Zimbabwean control zone, it is the Zambian law that shall apply or it is the Zambian enforcement officers who will enforce the Zambian law. Obviously, that is at variance with what is provided for in the agreement.

Mr Speaker, for the second reason, your Committee seriously call upon the Government to nullify this agreement so it is renegotiated to ensure that all the provisions of the agreements are in sync with this law when this House has passed it.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I would also like to state that when the agreement is entered into, it ought to be an agreement binding two governments. That means that the paper on which it is signed must carry emblems for both countries. That is, the emblem of Zambia and that of Zimbabwe.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The signatories must be identified by position.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: To simply write Hon. Lubinda, when he might even be a convict, …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … is not correct.

Sir, another matter of concern that your Committee looked at is the definition of the control zone. In both the agreement and law, the control zone is not defined in its geographical size, and yet the law is saying that a Zambian who commits an offence within the control zone on the Zimbabwean side will be arrested according to the Zambian law without defining the extent of the control zone. Is the control zone an extension of land 1 kilometre away from the border post?

Is the control zone simply the office in which customs and immigration officers operate? Unless that is cleared, going by what some of my colleagues debated yesterday or the other day regarding the Zambia State Intelligence Security, if this zone is left too liquid or fluid, I am afraid, the control zone may be used to abuse people. This is because that control zone will have an imaginary boundary.

Your Committee propose that it might be very difficult to determine, in the law, the extent of the control zone because the law will apply to various border posts. Nonetheless, that should be provided for in the specific agreements on each and every one stop border post so that people are aware about the geographical extent of the control zone.

Sir, before I end my contribution, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to consider amending the long title. I know that it is not the practice of Parliament to consider the long title, but I think for the sake of tiding up the law, the hon. Minister should consider amending object number (a). As it stands, it reads:

“The objects of this Bill are to provide for the conclusion of agreements by the Republic of Zambia with neighbouring states on the implementation of one-stop border processing arrangements”.

Sir, that connotes that this law is coming into effect to allow the Government of Zambia to conclude or bring to an end negotiations that are currently being undertaken on the One-Stop Border Post, and yet this law is also going to govern the agreements that will be entered into that have not commenced yet. In which case, we propose in your Committee report that we should delete the word “conclusion” so that it is clear that this law is not only to cover the Zimbabwe-Zambia One-Stop Border Post that has been subject of negotiations over the years. It will also apply to Kasumbalesa, Kazungula and all other one-stop border posts that Zambia will enter into.

Mr Speaker, let me assure the hon. Minister that your Committee made these recommendations in good faith and to avoid the arrogance of numbers superseding the need for good legislation, we have proposed amendments to this law. I just hope that the hon. Minister will take this in good stride and that he will move this amendments himself so that there is no reason whatsoever for calling each other unreasonable.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support the Bill on the Floor.

Sir, the concept of a one-stop border post came about from Zambia’s association with COMESA and SADC.

Due to COMESA’s will to have a one shopping basket for all member states, where trade restrictions or barriers are removed, there came the need to have a one-stop border stop. In Zambia, the pioneering border was between Zimbabwe and Zambia which affects most of the trade of this country. Looking at the background and the concept, those who are engaged in trade will agree with me that when one is coming in with goods, it takes about two days on the Zimbabwean side and some time on the Zambian side to do the formalities. I think the basic principle of this law should be supported. There are arguments that some parts of the agreement are not reflected. If we were to take the minutes, these would be presented as an appendix to the agreement. This would show who actually represented Zambia and Zimbabwe. These are just issues which can be sought thereafter. The basic principle is that this House should support this legislation with its appendix.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I have been part and parcel of these negotiations and I have travelled a lot in this regard. I have been on the Zambian delegation in the COMESA and SADC. Having supported the formation of this, I cannot come here and oppose. There are a lot of benefits this country is going to derive from this in that the movement of goods and services is going to be enhanced.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Therefore, we should not just stand here and look at the semantics and technical details which can be sorted out later. It is better to look at what advantages we shall derive from this.

Hon. Za Yellow, we should look at the advantages of this.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, it is very important that we support this, especially for the benefit of business men like Hon. Lubinda whose goods such as beer come in through the Zimbabwean route to Namakau House.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: It will take …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! I did not quite get what the hon. Member said, but I see a point of order being raised. Maybe the hon. Member said something unacceptable.
 
A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Katuba who is arguing with himself because the Bill has been supported, in order to bring me into the debate and refer to me as an importer when actually, I do not even know how to fill in papers for importing goods. I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Well, the House will appreciate the reason I was saying that there must be reasonable silence in the House so that presiding officers, including the rest of you, can follow the debate.

The hon. Member for Katuba is on the Floor and he will clarify what he means by saying that the hon. Member for Kabwata is an importer.

May he continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member for Katuba …

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member for Kabwata. Maybe we should exchange constituencies, mwana.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: He is not an importer and I agree with him that he is ignorant about …

Mr Speaker: Order! That term is unparliamentary. Withdraw it.

Mr Shakafuswa: I agree that he does not know what import papers look like. Some of the goods which we use are actually imported by other people who have the knowledge on how to sign these papers. They later bring these items to our trading places such as Shaka’s Kraal and Namakau House.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: There are times when we have had a shortage of beer because of long queues at the border. As a result, our businesses are affected. I agree that there might be some issues which have been raised on the agreement and these can be clarified. I think the capable hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry will come and tackle that. Meanwhile, I feel we should go ahead.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, this initiative is very important. However I will look at it from a different angle. I have been exporting stuff …

Mr Shakafuswa: What stuff?

Mr Nsanda: …since 1980. I have been exporting a lot of things to the Democratic Republic of Congo and I am very familiar with what the hon. Minister is talking about and the problems faced at the borders. I believe the One-Stop Border will be financed by donors as a credit to Zambia, but our children are going to pay for our inefficiency. The One-Stop Border can be done without losing a lot of money.

Mr Speaker, Zambia has routes to Dar-es-salaam, Nakara, Walvis Bay and Lobito Bay in Angola. We have opened new mines in Kansanshi and if the investors gave us money to build a new bring at Kazungula, that would ease the transportation of our copper, considering that the distance from Kansanshi to Kazungula is only 720 km. We also have a railway line which was bombed at Lobito Bay during the civil war in Angola. Now that the war is over, that is one of the shortest routes we can use to export our copper at a cheaper rate and make more money. It is expensive to transport our copper through Durban for export to the London Metal Exchange, as the route is longest.

Sir, Kazungula Border Post is congested because of our inefficiency. Beit Bridge is open twenty-four hours a day, but Kazungula closes at 1800 hours because the pontoon cannot operate at night. So do the Livingstone and Chirundu Border posts. This means that in a year, the Zambian border posts work for six months and in ten years, they would have worked for five years. Therefore all these agreements will not ease our transportation unless we open the borders for twenty hours a day.

Mr Speaker, we have very expensive scanning machines at these borders, but they are not being used properly because there is no manpower to use the equipment. I therefore, urge this Government not to spend money holding meetings with people who will only teach us how to make the type of paper like the one I downloaded last night …

Mr Lubinda: That is an offence!

Mr Nsanda: Downloading documents is not an offence.

Mr Speaker, the paper COMESA will be using at the boarders for certificates is not any different from the paper we are using at the moment. The only difference is the closing time of the boarder. The Zambian Government has spent a lot of money trying to open the Nakara Port, using the Zambia, Malawi and Mozambique triangle. The Government has opened the Mchinji Railway Line. What is the use of this railway line? Is it to transport people from Chipata to the boarder? The railway line was supposed to go all the way to Nakara, which is the shortest route for exports. New trains have been put at Nakara and the port has already been worked on through the Growth Triangle.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, we are playing into the hands of businessmen who are very clever. They are trying to use the Durban Port to make money. For us to be cleverer, we should use the shortest route and cut down on costs because we are a landlocked country. If we depend on this port, Zambia will lose more money, meaning that we will borrow more money from the donors, which our children seated here, will have to pay back when they grow up.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: May I remind the hon. Member that no reference to visitors is allowed in the Chamber.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank, first and foremost, the chairperson of the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour for a well presented report and for supporting the Bill as progressive, and that it will facilitate trade within the region and reduce the cost of doing business. I also wish to thank the hon. Members who have debated for supporting this Bill. 
Mr Speaker, I, however, wish to clarify a number of issues that have  been raised by the chairperson of the Committee and Hon. Lubinda, and also comment on the issues raised by the hon. Member for Katuba and Hon. Nsanda.

Mr Speaker, the bilateral agreement was entered into in 2007. In constructing this Bill, we took care to include in clause 8, transitional arrangements that will cater for those agreements that may have been entered into. There is, therefore, a provision for this in the Bill under clause 8. Within the agreement itself, there is a provision for amendments to take place between the two parties. This agreement will become effective only after we pass the Bill. We do not see the need to nullify the agreement. However, if there are any critical issues to be looked at, these will be amended in the agreement. I will come to the matters proposed later.

Mr Speaker, I would like to inform Hon. Lubinda that the agreement was signed by me. If he checks on the last page, it reads, “signed for and on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia, Hon. Felix Mutati”.

Dr Scott: It does not say who you are.

  Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, “signed for and on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Zambia” means there is legitimacy upon that person who signed for and on behalf of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Lubinda: Title kulibe!

Mr Mutati: The tile is secondary. What is important is what one is signing for.

Laughter

 Mr Mutati: What one is signing for is what is important and not the title. 
 
Mr Speaker, in clause 5, there is the issue of citizens and residents or persons. The proposal that has been made by the Committee is reasonable and we are going to incorporate it.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the issue of the conflict that has been referred to in the agreement 6.1 versus 3.9 and 5, in 3.9, we are defining what is called an exclusive area. In 6.1, we are defining a control zone. The control zone will incorporate the exclusive area. These, therefore, are two different zones that are referred to in the agreement. Therefore, the need for conflict does not arise because we are talking about different things.

Hon. MMD Member: 6.1 and 5 naimwe!

Mr Mutati: I will come to that. There is no inconsistency which we have to establish in the agreement.

Mr Speaker, I would like to come to the issue regarding the agreement and the control zone. In the law, we have defined a control zone. In defining a control zone within the Act, perimeters are not included because of the necessary flexibility that we must permit in the law for any changes that are going to take place in the future.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: This is why it is defined as an area.

Mr Speaker, on the long title, we are going to have several of these agreements going forward, which will need to be concluded. I do not see what is subtracted or added by the amendment.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba merely supported the Bill and did very well in bringing to light the relevant information that should be the hon. Member of Kabwata should know.

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, Hon. Nsanda raised a number of issues. My understanding was that he is very passionate about reducing the cost of taking cargo to the ports and that we need to examine the routes that will deliver the least cost. We are in total agreement that we need to do this. We need to look at the Nakara Corridor and, indeed, any other routes that will reduce the cost of doing business. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply made a ministerial statement to the effect that work is being done to address issue of the Kazungula Bridge. This is part of the package of measures that we are taking to reduce the cost of doing business.

Mr Speaker, the package of measures includes the introduction of the one-stop border post as an integral part in reducing the cost of doing business. An integral part of that process is the fact that we have been able to place scanners at border posts to reduce the cost of doing business.

Mr Speaker, by putting into effect this Act, we are going to reduce the time we take to clear a vehicle from the average of three days to two hours. That reduction is significant for economic and social reasons. That is the reason that we are going to extend this concept to the other borders.

Sir, with the support from our co-operating partners and also fundamentally from our own budget, we have so far finished the construction of the necessary facilities at Chirundu. We hope to commission this One-Stop Border Post shortly.

Mr Speaker, with the support that the Bill has received and the passion that has been exhibited by Hon. Lubinda in supporting the Bill, I trust that this Bill will go ahead as I have already explained to him where he does not understand.

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to the committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 27th March, 2009.

THE MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to introduce the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

Sir, the House may wish to know that the Mines and Minerals Development Act Number 7 of 2008 was enacted with a view, in part, to increasing the participation of Zambians in the mining sector.

Sir, some of the provisions of the Act were intended to promote ownership of mines by Zambians. Therefore, the Act included provisions to restrict certain minerals and mining rights to Zambian citizens and citizen-owned companies. Specifically, Sub-section (3) of Section (7) restricts a prospecting permit, small-scale mining licence, small-scale gemstone licence and artisan’s mining rights to citizens of Zambia and citizens-owned companies while Sub-section (4) of Section (7) restricts mining rights for industrial minerals to Zambian citizens and citizen-owned companies.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that some of the industrial minerals are barites, dolomites, feldspar, fluorspar, gypsum, limestone, phosphates, talc and clay.

Sir, on application, the provision to restrict mining rights for industrial minerals to citizens of Zambia and citizen-owned companies has restricted the flow of foreign direct investment in large-scale mining of industrial minerals and the setting up of related metallurgical processing and manufacturing plants. For instance, the major ingredients for cement manufacturing are limestone and gypsum, which are industrial minerals. Therefore, Sub-section (4) of Section (7) had a negative bearing on major investments in the cement industry like Lafarge and other potential investors in the section.

Sir, Zambia is endowed with industrial minerals for cement, phosphates and ceramic production. However, these minerals cannot be exploited on a large scale by citizens of Zambia alone due to limited financial capacity. Therefore, there is a need for foreign direct investment if the minerals are to be exploited on a large scale and support the setting up of associated industries and thus promote and create the much needed employment opportunities for our people.

Mr Speaker, the point to note is that any legislation, no matter how well intended, if it does not bring about the desired results, should be reviewed. Further, we should be mindful that whatever we legislate should have corresponding fully capacity built institutions to meet the objective. For the information of the House, a cement plant and associated infrastructure is estimated to cost US$350 million.  Therefore, it follows that exploitation of industrial minerals with the desired value addition is capital intensive.

Mr Speaker, in view of the foregoing, the ministry decided to amend the Act in order to remove the restrictions of mining rights for industrial minerals to Zambian citizens and citizen-owned companies. This is intended to support the development of large-scale mining of industrial minerals and associated manufacturing industries which the citizens and citizen-owned companies have not been able to set up since this provision came into effect.

Sir, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development proposes to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act Number 7 of 2008 by deleting Sub-section (4) of Section (7) to remove the restriction of mining rights for industrial minerals to citizens of Zambia and citizen-owned companies. With this amendment, we expect to see major investment in the mining of industrial minerals and related industries such as cement plants, quarrying and phosphate industries.

Sir, I am seeking the support of this House to have this amendment passed in order to attract foreign direct investment and create more jobs for our people.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr M. B. Mwale: It is not the same as dealing in scrap metal.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Sir, it need not be emphasised that the global economy is stressed and we have not been spared. The focus of this Government is on creation and preservation of jobs for our people.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I read your Committee’s report and the proposed amendments thereof. Our position as a Government remains the same, as the amendments will still restrict foreign direct investment in this sector.

 I thank you, Sir

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi west): Mr Speaker,  your Committee considered various submissions on the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill No. 9 of 2009 whose object is to amend the Mines and Mineral Development Act so as to revise the provisions relating to mining of industrial minerals.

Sir, your Committee would like to state, from the outset, that they do not support the amendment to delete Subsection (4) …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: …that provides that a mining right for industrial minerals shall only be granted to a citizen of Zambia and a citizen-owned company.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Kakoma: This is so because deleting the sub-section will remove from the law the intention of empowering citizens. In so doing, the country will be taking itself backwards.

Sir, you may wish to recall that, last year, this House passed the Mines and Minerals Development Bill of 2008. It was generally agreed then that there was need to empower Zambians by allowing them to partner with foreign-owned companies that wanted to invest in industrial minerals.

It was argued then that the Government made those provisions in the Mines and Minerals Development Act so as to align it with the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act. The Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act was passed in order to encourage, facilitate and increase the levels of Zambians’ participation in all facets of the Zambian economy.

Mr Speaker, your Committee is convinced that citizens' economic empowerment is the only sure way of promoting the country’s economic development anchored on meaningful, equitable and sustainable participation of the citizens in the economic management of Zambia’s resources. This is the main reason Sub-section 4 of Section 7 of the Act was deliberately enacted. It is, therefore, surprising that, barely a year after the law was passed, the Government is introducing this new amendment.

Sir, the view of your Committee is that we need to give this law more time. The requirement that the mining rights for industrial minerals shall be granted to a citizen of Zambia and citizen-owned company is well intended because it is meant to allow Zambians to benefit from the exploitation of their country’s resources.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: In any case, Mr Speaker, from our findings, not even a single foreign investor has applied to be granted a mining licence. We wonder where the pressure is coming from to amend the Bill.

Mr Kambwili: Chinese!

Hon. PF Member: Ama relatives!

Mr Kakoma: In view of the high shareholding threshold of citizen-empowered companies which is between 25 and 50 per cent and citizen-owned companies of 51 per cent of equity, as provided for under the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act, your Committee recommend to revise the threshold to a new threshold of citizen-influenced companies for mining of industrial minerals.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: The proposed amendment should read as follows:

“A mining right for industrial minerals shall only be granted to a citizen of Zambia or a citizen-influenced company as provided for under the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act, where the shareholding is between 5 and 25 per cent Zambian.”

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Sir, this will make it obligatory for foreign investors to partner with Zambians even just by partnering with equity of just 5 per cent.

This provision would remove the perception that the threshold is too high. Further, it would also maintain the spirit of empowerment since Zambians would still have a stake in the running of these industries.
Sir, I wish to conclude by thanking all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for their valuable input to the findings of the Committee. I also wish to thank you, Mr Speaker, for affording your Committee an opportunity to consider the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this Bill.

Mr Lubinda: Support your Committee!

Mr V. Mwale: I am not a member of this Committee and I am not going to be persuaded to support it by telling this House that I am its member when I am not. However, I am going to say what I want to say.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to support the amendment that has been proposed …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: … by the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Sir, it is true that we need to encourage our citizens to participate in the economic activities of this country. However, this does not mean we should do it at the expense of attracting direct foreign investment to this country. If foreign investors invest in this country, then we shall empower the citizens of this country with jobs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Not everyone can be a businessman.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr V. Mwale: There are Zambian citizens who can do business because they have the capital to manage and run mining companies. Such people must be empowered and encouraged. However, the ordinary Zambian who cannot manage to run such businesses must be empowered through jobs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: If we restrict certain activities in the mining sector like the production of cement, mining of phosphate and …

Mr Sing’ombe: Gypsum!

Mr V. Mwale: … gypsum, production of ceramic products from industrial minerals, some Zambians may not have the required capital to make certain products for such activities.

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: For example, if you want to put up a cement plant, you will need a lot of millions of US dollars to do that. How many Zambians can manage to raise such kind of capital to put up cement plants in this country?

Hon. PF Members: Aah iwe!

Mr F. Tembo: Hammer! Hammer!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, what I am trying to say is that there are a lot of investors out there who are looking for countries to invest in. There is a lot of competition within Africa, SADC and COMESA to attract foreign investors.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: However, if we enact laws that are going to turn away investors from Zambia to go to other countries, this will not help this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this is a very good Bill. It will ensure that a lot of people will come and invest …

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr V. Mwale: … in cement and gypsum production in Zambia and not Malawi or Tanzania.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: We want to attract them.

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: How many Zambians have the capital to engage in such kind of activities?

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: Let us not inhibit ourselves.

Interjections

Mr Speaker: Order!

At the moment, there is only one …

Mr V. Mwale standing.

Mr Speaker: May you take a seat for a moment?

Mr V. Mwale resumed his seat.

Mr Speaker: … hon. Member on the Floor, and that is Member of Parliament for Chipangali. The rest of you must pay attention.

The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr V. Mwale: Thank you for your protection, Sir.

I was just saying that creation of employment is empowerment. If we are going to attract investors to this country, they will create employment for our people. The people on the streets at the moment will benefit from this employment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Those people will get a salary …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: … and have money to spend in this country. They will be able to support their livelihood. That is what we call empowerment. Therefore, if we are thinking about empowering citizens, we should not just look at it from one angle but in a broader sense. If we are going to restrict investors from coming to this country, and yet we do not have Zambians who are able to do the activities preserved for Zambians, this is not going to help this country.

Mr Speaker, I support this Bill and I know that a lot of hon. Members will support it because it is going to propel this country economically.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I notice that the party across has an able replacement for Hon. Mbewe.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, there appears to be a wind of change blowing across Zambia. After many years of struggle, the Government came to the realisation, like everybody else in this country, that the wealth of this country needed to reside in Zambian hands and because of that, a number of Bills were brought to this House with the support of the Government. This House supported the Bills and among them was this Bill which sought to restrict the mining of certain minerals to Zambians or Zambian-owned companies in order that the wealth of this land might reside in Zambian hands.

Mr Speaker, let me make it very clear that this law that we passed last year did not restrict foreigners from participating in the mining of industrial minerals because it was very clear it allowed Zambians or Zambian-owned companies. The definition of a Zambian-owned company is one in which a Zambian owns 51 percent and so foreigners could participate to an extent of 49 percent.

Mr Speaker, as the Chairperson of the Committee said, and by the way I must declare that I am a Member of that committee, all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee were specifically asked if there had been any Zambian applicants from last March when this law was passed. Their response was there had not been a single Zambian who had applied. They were then asked if there were any foreign individual or company who had applied and again the answer was that there had been no foreigner or foreign-owned company that had applied.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, if that be the case, who has been stopped from investing? Let us now move to the other issues. Even if certain foreign-owned companies had been stopped, why was it not necessary to move the scale downwards from 49 percent, maybe to allow foreign-owned companies majority stake holding. Why was it not necessary?  Why must we move from 49 percent to 100 percent?

Mr Speaker, already the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has stated that in terms of the cement factory, the cost of putting up that factory is maybe US$350 million and no Zambian has this kind of money. Let me explain how companies are set up. Nobody comes into this country with US$350 million to set up a factory such as this one.

Mr Lubinda: No!

Mr Milupi: Let me also explain that the resources that God put into our soils are worth a lot of money. When an exploration licence is given to a company or individuals, once something is discovered, that becomes a resource and many people have gone to various stock exchanges to raise money on the basis of the information that they have.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, when we interviewed one of the witnesses, he said that one applicant owned 2000 hectares of limestone was seeking partners and my question is what value can we attach to that 2000 hectares of limestone? That is the equity that this Zambian is bringing to the Table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Another person will bring capital and together …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! When Business was suspended, the House was considering the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill No. 9 of 2009 and the hon. Member for Luena was speaking. However, before I call upon the hon. Member, I have a ruling to make.

REPRIMAND BEFORE THE BAR OF THE HOUSE OF MR GIVEN LUBINDA, MP

Madam Deputy Speaker: I order you hon. Member of Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Given Lubinda, MP, to stand behind the Bar of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s mace and stand behind the Hon. Member.

Mr Given Lubinda, MP, was escorted to the Bar by the Sergeant-At-Arms.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The House may wish to know that on Tuesday, 2nd December, 2008, the Hon. Mr Speaker received a letter of complaint from the Chief Whip, Hon. Vernon J. Mwaanga, MP. In his letter of complaint Hon. Mwaanga, MP alleged that the Member of Parliament for Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency, Mr G. Lubinda, MP, had cast aspersions on the proceedings of the House when he appeared on a live interview on MUVI Television and stated that the Hon. Mr Speaker did not properly explain the procedures and impact of the voting on the three Emoluments Bills, and hence the Patriotic Front Members who voted for the three Bills were misled into voting for the Bills.

The letter of complaint by Hon. V.J. Mwaanga, MP, read as follows:

“Dear Sir

RE: COMPLAINT AGAINST HON GIVEN LUBINDA’S UTTERANCES ON MUVI TV ON MONDAY 24th NOVEMBER, 2008

Mr Speaker, I wish to lodge a complaint against Hon. Given Lubinda, Member of Parliament for Kabwata who appeared on MUVI Television on Monday night, 24th November, 2008 and cast aspersions on the proceedings of the House when there was a vote on the three Emoluments Bills. 

Mr Speaker, Hon Lubinda stated on MUVI Television that the hon. Mr Speaker did not explain properly the procedures and impact of the voting, and hence the PF Members who voted for the three Emoluments Bills were misled into voting for the Bills.

Mr Speaker, I am also aware that when these Bills were debated and voted upon, the hon. Member for Kabwata was not in the House.  I was in the House when you suspended business and proceeded to explain the electronic voting procedure and the provisions of the Constitution which applied to that process.  It is, therefore, a misrepresentation of facts by Hon. Lubinda to allege that the proceedings on the Bills were irregular, confusing and not transparent and that this led to many hon. Members of the House voting for the Bills when they had the intention to vote against.

I, therefore, seek your serious consideration of this matter which, in my opinion, borders on contempt of the House and also constitutes an offence under the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

I enclose herewith a copy of the debates of that day and the transcript from MUVI Television to assist in the consideration of this matter.

Mr Speaker, it is my view that if this type of behaviour by hon. Members of Parliament of disparaging the proceedings of the House and the integrity of the Chair is left unchecked, the citizenry will lose respect and confidence in the functioning of this august House.

I, therefore, seek your intervention in this very serious matter.

Vernon J. Mwaanga, GOEZ, MP
CHIEF WHIP”

In accordance with Parliamentary practice and procedure, and in line with the rules of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Mr G. Lubinda, MP, requesting him to confirm or deny the allegations levelled against him and also to the Director of MUVI Television, requesting for copies of the video recording of the interview. 

In his reply, Mr G. Lubinda, MP, requested further and better particulars of the complaint.  His response read as follows:

“Dear Madam

Refer to your letter of even reference dated 11th December, 2008 in which you requested me to confirm or deny the allegations levelled against me in the letter written by Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, MP and to state my side of the story.

I appreciate your having extensively quoted the letter written by Hon. V.J. Mwaanga, MP, Government Chief Whip.  Nonetheless, the generality of the letter does not make it possible for me to make any pointed response.  I, therefore, humbly request that I am furnished with further and better particulars of the allegations levelled against me before I may confirm or deny them and before I may give my side of the story.

I wish to assure you that as soon as I received clear allegations, I shall respond promptly.

Yours faithfully
Given Lubinda
Member of Parliament for Kabwata”

Hon Members, MUVI Television, in response to the request, provided the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly with a video recording of the interview. 

Following Mr G. Lubinda’s request, the Committee, at their first sitting, resolved to adjourn consideration of the matter to another date so as to allow the complainant, Hon V. J. Mwaanga, MP, to avail Mr G. Lubinda, MP, with further and better particulars of the allegations.  The following was the letter by Hon V. J. Mwaanga, MP, in which he provided further points of clarification on his complaint.

“Dear Madam

RE: MY COMPLAINT AGAINST THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KABWATA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MR G. LUBINDA, MP

Reference is made to the sitting of the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services on 26th February, 2008, and to the preliminary issue raised by Mr Given Lubinda, MP, requesting for further and better particulars.  The following is my response:

1. When the Hon Member for Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency, Mr G. Lubinda, MP, appeared before the MUVI Television programme, on 24th November, 2008, he cast aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker, when he stated that some Members were misinformed and were thus confused, on the voting procedure and its effect.  He, in particular, said the following:

‘flow of debate was confusing … they did not know what they were doing.’

This definitely cast aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker, who had spent valuable time to explain the voting procedure and its effect to the Hon. Members.

2.  Mr Given Lubinda, MP, cast further aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker, when he alleged that the Speaker did not allow the Members to debate the Bills when they were tabled.  This was understood to mean that the Hon. Mr Speaker, had an ulterior motive and that he breached the laid down rules of procedure.  This was tantamount to questioning the integrity of the Chair and thus a breach of privilege and contempt of the House.

3. Mr Given Lubinda, MP, who was not in the House on the material day, grossly misrepresented the proceedings of the House when he stated that:

“George Kunda did not make any amendments to the Ministerial and Parliamentary Emoluments Bill.”

Laughter

The Deputy Speaker: The above statement was a deliberate misrepresentation by Mr G. Lubinda, MP, as the verbatim record of the debates and proceedings of the 19th November, 2008, clearly show that amendments were effected to all the three Emolument Bills.  For ease of reference, I have herewith attached the verbatim record of the debates and proceedings for the 19th November, 2008, when the three Bills were tabled.

It is my sincere hope that the above further and better particulars will be of assistance to Mr G. Lubinda, MP, and to the Committee.

Yours faithfully

Vernon J. Mwaanga, GOEZ, MP
CHIEF WHIP”

The letter from Mr V. J. Mwaanga, MP, was passed on to Mr G. Lubinda, MP, and the following was his response:

“Dear Madam

Reference is made to your letters dated 6th March, to which you attached the one from Hon V. J. Mwaanga, MP, dated 6th March, and 13th March, 2009, both concerning the complaint raised against me by Hon V. J. Mwaanga, MP.

I regret that because I did not come to Parliament from Monday, 9th until Friday, 12th, I only collected your letter dated 6th March on Friday, 12th March.  As such, I could not respond to it by 13:00 hours on 11th March as you had directed.

I am delighted that my request for better and further particulars relating to the complaint against me was granted. I am also delighted that Hon. Mwaanga has specified his three allegations.  I am now able to respond as the issues are now specified.

“From the outset, let me state categorically that at no time during the MUVI programme in question,  did I cast aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker as alleged by Hon. Mwaanga.  Secondly, on several occasions during the programme, I did indicate that I had not been in the House during the day when the Emoluments Bills were debated.  I also did make reference to the fact that the information I was sharing on the programme was from my consultations with colleagues and from reading Hansard.  As such, at no time did I claim to have been speaking from first hand.

“With regard to the statement that:

‘flow of debate was confusing … they did not know what they were doing’.

“I wish to request that it ought not to be read out of context. A review of the MUVI recording will reveal that my statement was as follows:

‘I have to put it on record that I was not in Parliament myself.  I have been out of the country for the last two weeks.  That is the reason I have been silent.  So I was not in Parliament on the material day. But I have since spoken to a number of my colleagues to find out what motivated them to vote the way they did.  Besides that I have conducted research and I have gone through Hansard to follow exactly what transpired that day and I have to put it clearly that for many people the flow of debate was confusing, they were not even sure what they were doing.’

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

“In response to the following follow-up question from the interviewer:

‘Are you suggesting Hon. Lubinda that the MPs did not know what they were voting for, that they were confused – is that what you are saying’

“I offered the following response:

Interjections

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The Chair does not expect any heckling at all.

‘The point I am making is that the way this Bill was handled was in such a way that it did not give Members of Parliament sufficient time to digest the matter so when the vote was called some of them were not sure what they were voting for.  You heard what President Sata said that some people were even arm-twisted.  They were told that voting against the amendment meant voting for the obnoxious 187% increase in salaries - so you can see that was what led to some Members voting without understanding what they were voting for.’

“Regarding the allegation that I stated that the Speaker did not allow the Members to debate the Bills when they were tabled, the correct position is that I stated that according to Hansard, after the Vice President moved an amendment to the Presidents Emoluments Amendment Bill, the Speaker proceeded by stating:

‘Before I put the question on the amendment moved by His Honour the Vice President, let me guide that in accordance with the requirements of the provisions of Article 78(4) of the Constitution of Zambia, the House shall proceed to a division.’

“And that a division was then called.

“With regard to the allegation that there was deliberate misrepresentation on my part when I said:

‘George Kunda did not make any amendment to the Ministerial and Parliamentary Emoluments Bill.’

“I wish to draw your attention to the fact that when referring to this matter I actually read from an extract of the verbatim of the day when I made reference to that fact that while the Vice President read out the specific amendments he was proposing to the Presidents Emoluments Bill, he did not proceed in a similar fashion with the Ministerial and Parliamentary Emoluments Bill.  This fact can be verified from the verbatim of record of the Debates and Proceedings of the 19th November, 2008.

“I trust that I have explained the allegations raised against me by Hon Mwaanga and that I have clarified that I made it abundantly clear throughout the programme that my submissions concerning the proceedings on the material day were based on information given to me by my colleagues (some of whom had earlier made public pronouncements to the effect that they had not understood the flow of business) and on the verbatim record of the Debates and Proceedings

Yours faithfully

Given Lubinda.”

The House may wish to know that the Hon. Member for Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency, Mr G. Lubinda, MP, appeared before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services.  The Committee, apart from considering submissions from the witnesses, also viewed the video of the interview of Mr G. Lubinda, MP, by MUVI Television, and listened to the audio record of the debates of 19th November, 2008.  The following were the Committee’s observations and findings:

(i) the Speaker did not curtail debate.  It was observed that the Speaker had actually called for debates on all the three Bills;

(ii) the official record of the verbatim debate is the bound volume.  During the hearing of the Committee, Mr G. Lubinda, MP, had insisted that he had used the verbatim record of the proceedings which he had downloaded from the internet.  The Committee, therefore, summoned and received submissions from the Chief Editor of Parliamentary Publications who stated that the only official record of Parliamentary debates was the bound volume and that Mr Lubinda, MP, was well aware of that fact as he had been to his office on a number of occasions requesting for records of debates.  The record of the Parliamentary debates referred to by Mr Given Lubinda, MP, though posted on the Parliamentary website is the uncorrected transcript of the debates and is not an official record;

(iii) Mr Given Lubinda, MP, failed to provide a clear answer to the question of whether there was sufficient time given to the hon. Members before the amendments to the Bills were moved;

(iv) the Vice-President did move the amendments to all the three Bills and actually gave reasons in support of the amendments;

(v) during the interview on MUVI Television, Mr Lubinda, MP, had also referred to an earlier interview by the Patriotic Front Party President, Mr M. Sata, who claimed that some Members were arm-twisted.  Mr Lubinda, MP, however, failed to show, before the Committee, why he had brought in the statement of Mr Sata and what its relevance was to his interview and how the hon. Members were arm-twisted;

(vi) the Committee was also informed that the Party Whips in the House had been informed and consulted on the amendments to the Bills long before they were tabled; and

(vii) Mr G. Lubinda, MP, relied on incomplete and misleading information by using uncorrected record of Parliamentary debates from the website and information from colleagues he claimed to have consulted.

Hon Members may wish to note that the allegations against Mr G. Lubinda, MP, raise the following questions:

(i) Parliamentary Privileges vis-à-vis criticising the Hon Mr Speaker’s conduct of Parliamentary Proceedings, thereby casting aspersions on the Chair;

(ii) Parliamentary Privileges and contempt of the House vis-à-vis willful misrepresentation of the proceedings of the House by a hon. Member outside the House; and

(iii) Parliamentary Privileges vis-à-vis casting aspersions on the Hon. Members of the House.

May I now draw the attention of the House to the relevant authorities in this regard.

M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fifth Edition, on page 120, state that and I quote:

“It is the right of the Speaker to interpret the Constitution and the Rules, so far as matters in or relating to the House are concerned…

… Members cannot criticise directly or indirectly, inside or outside the House, any ruling given, opinion expressed or statement made, by the Speaker.”

In the same book, on pages 279-280, the authors state that:
“Examples of speeches and writings which have been held to constitute breach of privilege and contempt of the House may be categorised as under – 
Reflections on the House;
Reflections on the character and impartiality of the Speaker in the discharge of his duty.”

The authors further state at page 280, of the same book that:
“The publication of false or distorted, partial or injurious report of debates or proceedings of the House or its Committees or willful misrepresentation or suppression of speeches of particular members, is an offence …

… and the persons who are responsible for such publications are liable to be punished for a breach of privilege or contempt of the House.”

Another well known writer, Erskine May, in his book entitled Parliamentary Practice, Twenty-second Edition, on page 190, states that:

“Reflections upon the character or actions of the speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege.  His action cannot be criticised incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except a substantive motion.”

On page 123, in the same book, he states that:

“… reflections on the character of the speaker or accusations of partiality in the discharge of his duties and similar charges against the Chairman of ways and means … have attracted penal powers of the Commons.”

Sections 19 (d) and (e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12, of the Laws of Zambia, state that:

“19(d) Any person shall be guilty of an offence who shows disrespect in speech or manner towards the Speaker; or

19(e) Any person shall be guilty of an offence who commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a committee of the Assembly or any person presiding at such proceedings.”

Further, section 25(b) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privilege) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia states that:
“25 (b) Any person who publishes any false or scandalous libel on the Assembly or any report which willfully misrepresents in any way any proceedings of the Assembly or any Committee shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a period not exceeding twelve months, or to both.”

Hon Members may wish to know that from the facts of the case and the various authorities quoted, the Committee established the following breaches of privilege by Mr G. Lubinda, MP:

1. Mr G. Lubinda, MP, cast aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker when he alleged that the flow of debate was confusing.

2. Mr G. Lubinda, MP, cast further aspersions on the Hon. Mr Speaker when he claimed that some Members did not know what they were voting for, and yet the Hon. Mr Speaker had taken time to guide the House before the voting.  This also cast aspersions on the Members who were perceived negatively by the public as being confused and unknowledgeable.

3. Further, aspersions were cast on the Hon. Mr Speaker when Mr Lubinda, MP, alleged that the Hon. Mr Speaker allowed a division without the amendments to two of the Bills being moved by the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, Hon. G. Kunda, MP.

4. Mr G. Lubinda, MP, misrepresented the proceedings of the House when he alleged that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice did not move any amendments to the Ministerial and Parliamentary (Emoluments) Bill and the Constitutional Office (Emoluments) Bill.

The Committee, therefore, found Mr G. Lubinda, MP, in breach of sections 19(d) and (e) and section 25 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap.12 of the Laws of Zambia.

The Committee resolved to impose a reprimand on Mr G. Lubinda, MP, and a charge of K250, 000.00 as refund to the National Assembly for the money spent to procure the video of the interview from the MUVI Television station viewed by the Committee during its proceedings.

In arriving at their decision, the Committee considered the following mitigating factors:

(i) that Mr G. Lubinda, MP, was a first offender; and

(ii) that he relied on incomplete verbatim record of Parliamentary debates which he downloaded from the National Assembly website.

I now turn to address you, Mr G. Lubinda, MP.  Your breach of privilege stemmed from your criticism of the Hon. Mr Speaker’s conduct of the proceedings outside the House, using the media.   

You were not in this House on 19th November, 2008 when the Speaker guided the House before voting on the amendments of the three Emolument Bills and there was no objection from any Hon. Member.  It was, therefore, irresponsible for you to go to the media and comment on the proceedings of the House, based on an incomplete record of the debates and other unreliable sources.  Your action effectively misrepresented the proceedings of the House and brought the House into ridicule by the public, a serious contempt. 

By your action, you cast serious aspersions on the authority of the Hon. Mr Speaker and the House as a whole.  You went to the media and alleged, among other things, that the Hon. Mr Speaker did not allow debate on the Ministerial and Parliamentary (Emoluments) Bill, the Presidential (Emoluments) Bill and the Constitutional Offices (Emoluments) Bill.  You further said that the flow of debate was confusing and that some Members did not know what they were voting for.  You also stated that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice did not move the amendments to two of the Emoluments Bills. These were irresponsible and misleading statements. 

By you misrepresenting the proceedings of the House in a libelous way, as provided for under section 25(b) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, you committed a serious offence which calls for a maximum penalty on conviction of 5000 penalty units and/or imprisonment to a period not exceeding 12 months.  The Committee intended to impose this penalty on you, but, after considering the mitigating factors, and the fact that you were a first offender, a resolution was made to reprimand you.  In future, and this must be taken seriously, the House will not hesitate to impose the maximum penalty on you.

While the House may not restrict publication of its proceedings, it is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House for any person to give a false representation on the proceedings of the House.

Hon. Members should take heed of this timely guidance and desist from misconduct amounting to breach of parliamentary privileges and contempt of the House. The Chair will not hesitate to impose more deterrent punishments which include naming an erring hon. Member or suspension of an hon. Member who will not heed this timely advice. In imposing such punishment, the Chair will not be swayed by the fact that such a Member may be a first offender because we have been generally guided.

I now order you, Mr Given Lubinda, MP, to give an apology to the House and, thereafter, take your seat.

I thank you.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I apologise to this august House for the misleading remarks I made to the public during my interview on Muvi Television on Monday, 24th November, 2008.

Madam, I have reflected on my remarks which tend to compromise the dignity of this House and the Office of the Hon. Mr Speaker. I deeply regret my unfortunate remarks.

Madam, I have carefully listened to your reprimand and the guidance you have given me. With the indulgence of the House, Madam, I wish to assure this august House that in future, I shall note that the parliamentary website contains uncorrected verbatim transcripts of the debates of the House and that I shall not rely on it. To this end, I shall endeavour to conduct myself in a manner expected of a Member of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lubinda resumed his seat.{mospagebreak}

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Luena may continue his debate, please.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam, before business was suspended, I was making reference to how equity can be obtained with specific reference to resources that reside within ourselves that there is a value to those resources. This is a fact recognised on stock exchanges throughout the world that a number of mining companies that have come into this country have depended on the resources to raise capital on the foreign stock exchanges.

Madam Speaker, let me say to our friends on your right that all of a sudden have assumed this foreign eccentric posture in terms of the resources of this country. This is wrong and it is also wrong to tell Zambians that they will be empowered by employment. I will give an example of the Philippines that relies on sending their people out for employment and relied to a very large extent on the repatriation of funds from the foreign workers. There is nothing wrong with that. However, when a country has resources, it must endeavour to ensure that those resources continue to reside in the hands of the citizens.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam, agree with everybody on this side of the House and I am sure also …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … with everybody on your right because it is a nationalistic thing to do. I ask my colleagues on your right also to move away from this foreign eccentric posture and to assume a nationalistic posture.

Madam, let me give you a few examples. One cannot invest in the Middle East countries like Abu Dhabi, Dubai and others unless he or she has a partner who is a citizen there. This is why these countries are developing because the resources reside in the hands of the citizens.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Let me touch on the subject of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) which is a definition of the wealth that this country has. Hon. Mutati continues to remind us of what he terms the GDP in people’s pockets. He has said many times that GDP on paper is worthless. The Gross Domestic Product must be in the pockets of the citizens of this country.

Madam, if you look at the way we have structured our economy in this country, you will find that most of the companies are foreign owned. We have also made arrangements with our banking system that not only profits and dividends are repatriated, but the sales revenue is all repatriated. This happens with all the mining companies. This type of GDP does not translate itself into GDP to put in people’s pockets, but it is GDP that goes back to the economies of those foreign companies.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam, at this rate, the long-term, medium-term and short-term plans that our Government has set itself to achieve shall not be achieved. I can say certainly in this House that the Vision 2030, with the type of attitude that we are seeing in terms of the utilisation of the resources of this country, will not be achieved and it shall continue to be an elusion. 
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam, there is nothing controversial in what we are saying. All we are saying in this Bill is that if the Government felt uncomfortable to have majority shareholding in the exploitation of industrial minerals, they should have moved a threshold maybe lower. In fact, the Citizens Empowerment Act provides for them. If this is done that way, Zambians would continue also to have something from the resource that God gave them.

Let me remind the House of Nigeria. At the moment, there are many Nigerian businessmen coming into Zambia. The reason they are coming to invest in Zambia is that their country allowed them to acquire this wealth through the utilisation of their resources. South Africa is moving ahead of us because, again, that country saw it fit at independence to empower their citizens not only by employment, but also by equity holding in the companies that depend on exploitation of their natural resources. This is normal and so I ask the Government to look squarely on the Hon. Mr Speaker’s report made by the Committee appointed by this House who said they have difficulty supporting these amendments and that further amendments which have been proposed here to remove this particular item must be considered. However, we are not doing this just for posterity’s sake, but with think it is the reasonable thing to do. It is the way forward.

With these few remarks, I support the report of your Committee.

Thank you, Madam.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to state that I am extremely petrified …

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: … that the Government is trying to take away everything from the Zambian citizens.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, the intentions of this country are to enrich its nationals. If, in the Government’s view, the best thing to do to nationals is to make them workers and labourers then I do not understand what the intentions of governance are. You say that the companies that will apply will employ your children and that is what you are looking up to. Why is it that it is only Zambia that always has to bend backwards?

Madam, two days ago, a Bill was pushed to remove Windfall Tax. We bend to foreigners every time. What has the country gained from having no restrictions on base metals in the mines? What employment are we talking about when we have a lot of Chinese who are pushing wheelbarrows in this country?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Madam, the same applies to industrial metals, if we allow foreigners to come, they will also bring people from Abuja or Lagos to push wheelbarrows. Why then are we bending backwards? Why is it that it is only in Africa where we have to bend backwards? We allow foreigners to use us to undermine each other.

Madam, there is a time in Zambia and Africa as a whole when we bent backwards. We were taken as slaves, but who was selling the people as slaves? Was it not the chiefs and kings?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear!

Mr Syakalima: When they realised that slavery was no longer profitable, they called for it to be outlawed. That is how colonialism came. We were colonised for a hundred years. What did the colonialists take out of this country? They took our wealth, minerals included.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Syakalima: When they thought that the minerals were finished, they granted us independence. Now that they have realised that there are still some minerals left, they have come back and we are still bending backwards.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: From the time of slavery, I think we are still a confused continent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: We have not found ourselves. If we look back in history to the time when we were sold like chickens at the market, and yet we are still bending backwards then we have not yet found ourselves. We are still suffering from the legacy of slavery, colonialism and now imperialism. We are suffering from cultural imperialism and mental colonisation

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: We have allowed these same people to come back and confuse us and finish everything they left behind. You are talking about lack of capital in the form of money. What is the value of your land and the minerals down there in the earth?

Dr Chishimba: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Why should some more people be allowed to come and do what has been done before on the mines? They were let to go scot free, and by the time we realised that we had to introduce windfall tax, they had already taken all the wealth in five years and they are laughing at us. Some of them are now packing up because they have already made their profits.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Madam, now even the little tax that has to be collected has been removed. Minister of Finance and National Planning, this is very dangerous. Tell your colleagues that you have already done one thing that you may not even be forgiven for in the future.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Recently, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning cried foul about the size of the Budget. Admittedly so, at K15 trillion, the budget is too small for a country of this magnitude. He added that this Budget is three times that of the Harvard University.

Zambia has a land mass of 750,000 square kilometers. Sixty-two per cent of this land is arable, only 6 per cent is cropped and 0.6 per cent is under irrigation.  You have failed agriculture and you surely want to fail us again on this again?

Hon. Opposition Member: Economic sabotage indictment.

Mr Muyanda: If a person wants to come and invest, and a Zambian already has the capital which is the land that he owns, do not just look at the land and think that it is not capital. The foreign investor can bring US$50 million, for example, while the Zambian can provide the land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: This land has something down there in the earth, and that is my equity.

Mrs Masiye: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Why can the investors not be reasoned with and told that our people have suffered enough. Why should it be you to bend all the time? You bended the other time and this smacks suspicion. We only passed this law last year. Why did the investors who have come now not come in 2007? Where were they in 2007?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: It is because this law has caught up with someone that you are asking that we revise it.

Mr Mwiimbu: Amending the law for a person.

Mr Syakalima: Amending the law for a person. Law which targets an individual is very dangerous.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Motor Vehicle law!

Mr Mwiimbu: Kangote!

Mr Syakalima: We cannot continue to subsidise your incompetence, if that is the case.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: You know your gin co-efficient in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Speak through the Chair.

Mr Syakalima: You know the gin co-efficient. If you are talking about these companies contributing to GDP, that is their GDP. You should start to look at the Gross National Product GNP; that is what we should be talking about. People will come to this country and you will talk about the exports, but the money realised from the exports is not yours. They export and you allow them to externalise their profits.

Hon. Opposition Member: Economic sabotage.

Mr Syakalima: You say that we need employment but this is employment for labourers.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Let them be told this. If they say they will not invest now, let them be and we shall keep our land. Maybe our children will be better thinkers than ourselves …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: They will come and exploit these minerals and keep them to themselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Let us preserve our wealth for our children who might be able to think better than us if we have failed in our time like our forefathers failed during slavery.  In the era of colonisation, our forefathers fought for independence and now they are tired.

 

 

 

We are energetic, hon. Minister of Miners and Minerals Development. You are energetic enough.

Mr Hachipuka: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister has been told to speak through the Chair and it is very clear. Address the hon. Minister as third person and through the Chair.

Mr Hachipuka: They do not listen.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

I do not know how many times we are going to defend our nationals and our colleagues who have been given the privilege to governance. I am now being reminded of somebody who said that if you want to sort out your economic issues, as Africans, sort out your governance issues, first. As long as you do not do that, you will never go anywhere.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Our governance is the biggest problem.

Madam Speaker, in case people who want to grab anything from us are saying that it is too much to allow a Zambian or a conglomerate of Zambians to have a 50 per cent plus one shares, your Committee has stated that you can reduce that in consonance with our Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund. They have reduced that to between 5 to 25 percent and it is called citizen influenced. This is in order to enable a few Zambians have a stake; to smell their wealth because 5 per cent is nothing but just smelling.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: They can get their 95 per cent, but we want our citizens to smell …

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: … their wealth.

Surely, if you had told the mine owners that we were maintaining Windfall Tax and they did not accept this, they were at liberty to pack and go. They were not going to pack because they know that we can even share more. This time around, anybody who has the money and is not ready to abide by our conditions, ask them to go back with their money. Tell them that we shall remain with our land and minerals.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Who is going to do anything to us? Chavez told the oil legatees that he needed 60 per cent from the profits they were making. They threatened to leave, and he told them to pack and go. They did not go because they are still there.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, whether you put it at 25 per cent of the profit, the mine owners will stay because they will still be making a profit. The agreements that you made were wrong. The other time the mine owners said that they were not there when the agreements were signed. You will pay the price for removing the Windfall Tax.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: You will pay the heaviest price for wanting to remove this clause in the Minerals Act. Madam, this is not a threat. Life behaves as follows.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: The Government always creates a situation that will call for a vote thinking that they will win, and this is where they are running to. However, truth temporarily defeated is more important than evil triumphant.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Syakalima: Truth temporarily defeated is more important than evil triumphant because the truth shall always find its way. As the saying goes, the wheels are grinding slowly. They are always caught up in their own web. I would like to appeal, in the most earnest manner, to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that it is not about winning a case or many in court.

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Syakalima:  for instance I have won many cases, but it is different here. How many cases have we won for the people?

Hon. UPND Members: Zero!

Mr Syakalima: This is a pre-carrion call on my good friend, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, whom I know does not believe in this.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: He does not believe in the Windfall Tax which was removed …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: … because I know him very well.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Unfortunately, where they say collective responsibility …

Mr B. M. Mwale: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Syakalima: … you can as well be charged for collective irresponsibility.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I have not allowed that point of order for obvious reasons that the hon. Minister will wind up debate. If there is reason to respond, he will do that then.

Continue, hon. Member, please.

Mr Syakalima: I hope he will not say that I do not know him.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not push words in the throat of the hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Do not deny me, because the cock has not yet crowed.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Colleagues, we want to appeal to your collective consciences. Just tell them that we shall keep our minerals and land. Our children may be able to think properly because I think we are tired. We must admit this.

Mrs Musokotwane: There is too much recycling.

Mr Syakalima: We are extremely tired and are unable to see beyond our noses. Maybe we should leave this for our children who will come and correct all our mistakes. I know for sure that they will not take us to the gallows because we did this. However, if they find that some people were saying this was wrong, wherever they shall be, …

Mrs Musokotwane: They will fall!

Mr Syakalima: … they will end up badly. This is why I feel sad that at the time when we were trying to see some light …

Hon. Opposition Members: At the end of the tunnel.

Mr Syakalima: … at the end of the tunnel; when the late President Mwanawasa started looking at certain things for humanity, things turned out this way. May his soul rest in endless and everlasting peace. He could have been very annoyed today if he saw us behaving this way.

With these few words, I would like to say to my colleagues, …

Hon. Opposition Members Stood up!

Mr Syakalima: … -sit down first of all-

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I order the hon. Member to …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not make the ruling, just speak.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: … that I may not have any more strength to say certain things that I have said on this Floor.

I thank you, Madam.
Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Ms Masiye: Ebaume aba!

Dr Chishimba: The Romans say, and I quote: Laudemus viros gloriousos eidem …

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: … patria bene meruriant. This means, “So let us praise the outstanding men who have done well to serve their motherland”.

Madam Speaker, it will be irresponsible for this generation to fail to work for the next one. The men and women who sacrificed their lives so that this country can become independent would have died in vain if this generation failed to fight the battles that we face today which are not as fierce as the battles they fought. These are men who drove away the colonialists over land and mineral resources in pursuit of self determination so that this country can join the family of free nations. Today, we appear to be taking this freedom for granted.

Madam Speaker, the removal of the clause, which I will gladly quote, is an act of irresponsibility.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, according to the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2008, Section 7, Sub-section 4, I quote:

“the mining rights for industrial minerals shall only be granted to a citizen of Zambia and a citizen-owned company.”

Madam Speaker, in the same statute, under Section 2, Sub-section 1, industrial minerals are itemised. Among those itemised industrial minerals, we have graphite, gypsum, ironstone, fluorspar, limestone, sand and salt.

Madam Speaker, how can the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) ever think of taking away such a right for the people of Zambia to be able, at least, to have something reserved for them in this era at this critical moment in the history of this country? As I debated yesterday, Zambia, cannot afford to transform herself into a cup. A cup will not complain irrespective of what you put in it.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, I believe that we are sensible people. Today, we can decide to be responsible, reasonable and be sensible and be able to protect this country from becoming that cup which was prophesied by one of the nationalists, Mr Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, it is heart wrenching that at the time that our men and women in the corridors of power are supposed to rise and to protect the resources that we have in this country, they are instead, going in the opposite direction. This is unacceptable.

Madam Speaker, the change which the people of Zambia wanted in 1991 was not just change in terms of leadership. What they wanted was the change in the livelihoods because at the time, the living conditions of people by 1990 and 1991 were bad. The people of Zambia wanted to see a change which was going to translate into practical realities to be able to traverse from their sufferings and enjoyment to pursue happiness without any hindrances. Today, that change is not forthcoming. Instead, even the little which they have is being taken away from them. This is unacceptable.

Madam Speaker, this country cannot be auctioned. Just after getting independence, Mr Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe again said, “if you are irresponsible and not careful, you as leaders, …

Mr Beene: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Beene: Madam Speaker, you are aware that I rarely rise on points of order and I did not want to disturb my brother who is debating very well. Is the speaker on the Floor in order not to include that by passing this Bill, he is actually even going against the National Constitutional Conference which is giving rights.

I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That point of order is out of order. The hon. Member is free to debate what he thinks.

You can continue, hon. Member, please.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, the propensity and the culture of leaders attempting to deep their fingers in State coffers, directly or indirectly by corruptly trying to amend the laws as my brother Syakalima has put it, to just embrace their friends cannot be accepted. I think I can debate that in Zambia, you do not need to pay anybody in any department to get information. When you go on the streets, you will find information.

Ms Masiye: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia are aware of what is happening and they have the facts. By this, I am talking about written evidence that this law is being amended to just accommodate one particular individual who, according to the powers that be, must be given a licence to start producing cement. These facts are there.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, that is why I have said that we cannot afford to transform this country into a cup.

Ms Masiye: Abuja!

Dr Chishimba: Madam, we can decide for once. This generation can decide today to die a little for this country. I said that those men and women risked their lives. Most of them died unclaimed. Others were injured and others even sacrificed the luxury in order to give this general wealth. This generation cannot afford to take away even a little trace of that hope to the generation that is yet to come. Whatever we do today, should not necessarily be meant to benefit Chishimba, for example. If today I benefit, how will that benefit the country? I have said that we do not only take our responsibility to the people of this country, but also to God because He sees what is happening. Even in the secret places, he watches over us. We are a Christian nation and as a Christian nation, we cannot afford to let the truth tumble on our streets. We can decide to be on the side of the truth of what works for this country.

Madam Speaker, the current nonchalant and perfunctory attitudes must completely change in this country. The perfunctoriness in the way we do business and look at the laws must be stopped in this country. We must look at a broader picture of the people out there. If today, I can plunder this station’s resources and put in some account overseas, the fact of life is that one day, I will die and I will not go with that power and those resources. These are realities of life with which we must come to terms. We cannot be, as I have said before, subjugated to a beguiling appeal to take things easy. What we are seeing today, is a typical example of taking things easy whereby it does not matter as long as you have the numbers, you will come up with whatever you want. We cannot abuse Parliamentary majoritarism in this republic at a time set as this one. Sometimes, we must decide to listen to the voice of reason in order to move this country forward.

Hon. PF Members:  Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Chishimba:  Madam Speaker, today’s decisions by this generation will haunt us for many years to come. Today, we read about men and women, who, on principle, would stand up and walk out of the corridors of power because they never believed in what was happening. Today, we, the future generation, who were not born then, are referring to them. This is because they loved their country and today, we must again decide to love our country; to be patriotic and work for generations to come.

Madam Speaker, it is irresponsible, I must emphasise, by the MMD Government to remove the restrictive provisions from our statutes that seek to ensure that Zambians at least have certain economic activities reserved for them. We cannot afford to do that. This is crucially important because since independence, both the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the MMD governments have horrendously failed to diversify the economy. This simply means that mineral resources such as copper still constitute the backbone of our economy.  I am going to practically illustrate this point:

Madam, the First National Development Plan was from 1966 to 1970 and objective number 1 states, and I quote:

“To diversify the economy so that the copper industry is not the only main employer in the economy.”

Madam, the Second National Development Plan was from 1972 to 1976 and objective number 2 states, and I quote:

“To promote diversification and contribution of agriculture to GDP.”

Madam, objective number 3 states:

“Promotion of rapid development of mineral resource in order to increase employment opportunities, Government revenue, foreign exchange earnings and development of rural areas.”

The Third National Development Plan was from 1979 to 1983 and objective number 3 states, and I quote:

“Diversification of the economy from copper mining.”

Madam Speaker, investment in human resources in sectors other than copper mining, has been the focus of the Government since independence. The initial policies of the MMD Government and the current Fifth National Development Plan are also talking about diversification to other sectors. This simply means that we have not yet diversified our economy, and therefore, copper and other minerals, which this nation is finally discovering, still constitute the backbone of our economy. We cannot afford to be irresponsible.

Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, I will not be surprised to learn that in the next few days or months, after passing this law, we will see friends of those in the corridors of power coming to invest in this country. I will not be surprised, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Tibaziba!

Dr Chishimba: … because most details are already there. We have them and we are going to expose them.

Flip flopping has now become the policy of the MMD Government. Today, you take us in one direction and the next day you take us to another. For how long are we going to be taken for granted? For how long are you going to keep changing directions, oscillating from point A to B? Is this the way to run national affairs? We, in the Patriotic Front (PF) believe in empowering the people.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: We are very clear in the PF that mineral resources are for Zambians. Zambians must take a lead in this. Our party will continue to be on the side of the people and on the side of what history may dictate today.

Madam Speaker, let me give an example of Mauritius. I was privileged to have been sent to Mauritius by your Committee on Estimates. Mauritius borrowed money from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in 1968, when they got their independence. They got their independence after Zambia. However, they borrowed once and invested in the mainstay of their economy, which is the sugarcane industry.

Madam Speaker, in less than thirty years of independence, Mauritius is a success story and has managed to diversify from the sugarcane industry to other sectors, such as the real estate industry, banking and Information and Communication Technology (ICT). Today, Mauritius has managed to achieve what I will call near full employment. For instance, youth unemployment is only 5 per cent. Today, Mauritius is able to engage other universities in East Africa, particularly Uganda, whereby when people graduate, they can work in Mauritius. Mauritius is importing labour because they have been able to provide jobs to their people fully.

What is this country still doing?

Hon. Opposition Member: Bukopo!

Dr Chishimba: Today, we are talking about forty-five years of independence. However, we are turning away from the right direction because, according to the MMD, it cannot work, and they are, therefore, turning another direction, for the sake of satisfying their needs.

Madam Speaker, a time has come for change. Now is the time for change.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: This is the time for a new leadership that will protect the mines and reserve industrial minerals for Zambians. Foreign investors can only come as partners. This is the policy in Nigeria today, for those of you who want to accommodate that man.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: There are certain things that are reserved for Nigerians. If, from Zambia, you want to go and invest in Nigeria, you must go and partner with the local people.

Madam Speaker, now, is the time for a new leadership with a new millennium mindset that will save Zambia from total collapse. Now is the time to read the signs of the times. The writing for new ideas is clear. No matter what we do, the time has come for the people. This is the time to take decisive action that will protect Zambians. We are tired of taking measures that do not put the interest of this Nation at the core of whatever we say or do as leaders, as is the case with this attempt to remove this important clause from our statute. 
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Now is the time for a leadership that will implement a programme of diversification that the people have been yearning for since independence. This is the time to diversify in order to secure the future of this country. The PF is emphasising this fact and the people of Zambia are getting it clearly.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: This is the time for a leadership that will create a mines development fund so that the people of Zambia are able to access those resources. I would like to state, at this point, that it is not enough to just say that we have reserved, for instance, minerals for Zambians, without programmes that are going to empower the people of Zambia. It is not enough to say that we have the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission, which is so jumbled up, as I said before.

In Mauritius, they have clear programmes put in place without any abstracts. They have, for instance, a fund for the sugarcane industry and one for ICT. In Zambia, mining is still the mainstay of the economy. Therefore, we can decide, today, to create a fund so that the people of Zambia can have access to these resources.

We have engineers, metallurgists and competent people like Hon. Milupi, Hon. Hachipuka and others with vast experience. These are only a few examples. There are many Zambians with the necessary skills who are running the same mining companies. We have the skill but lack the capital. Once the capital is provided, we will see them set up their own plants so that those who come to Zambia to invest, only come as partners. It is very simple to do this. We can decide to do so today.

Madam Speaker, now is the era of the people. Now is the time for the people of Zambia to be positioned strategically and benefit from their God-given resources. God knew why he had to hide so many resources in this land and only to expose them at this hour. Let us know that no matter what we do, God is in control. As for all those who think they are going to remain in power forever, God can decide to take any step at any time against anybody. This is universal. We have seen these things happen, and yet our eyes cannot still see, our ears cannot hear, and our minds cannot conceive. These things are happening and we have to learn this today.

Madam Speaker, this is the time for investment policies that will work for the people. It is the time for policies that will move Zambia into an era where resources for mining are accounted for and invested in socio-economic infrastructure for national development. The people of Zambia want houses, roads, railways, hospitals, high schools, colleges and universities. These are things that we can provide at an accelerated rate as opposed to what is happening now. It is not enough to just stock the country with basic schools and say we have achieved something. Where will someone go after Grade 9? I am talking about a Grade 9 pupil who cannot even spell his or her name and you say we have achieved something.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: Providing a service goes beyond the presence of physical infrastructure. There must be changes to be seen on the ground. This, we can decide to do today.

Ms Masiye: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: We have learnt lessons from the past. Today, the MMD has learnt lessons from investors whose motive is profit. When things go bad, they pack up and leave. The Government brought them here, and they have seen what they have done. Today, the Government can decide not to go that path. Today, the Government can decide to let Zambians lead and let others join them. This is the time for you, as MMD, to admit that you have horrendously failed and you have completely run out of ideas. It is very clear.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: When people begin to oscillate, it means that they have reached their end and it is not the MMD’s fault. This is not President Banda’s fault. It is not Hon. Madam Speaker’s or the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development’s fault. It is simply because this is how far the Government’s capacity can take them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: We can do better.

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! A point of order is raised.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!
Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. As you know, I rarely stand on points of order.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, is the man …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: …who is debating …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Mbulakulima: … and debating philosophically, in order to talk about consistency, when a few months ago, he put up an injunction against his president …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: …then later went back. A few days ago, he was at the NCC and later went away?

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Is he the best person to talk about consistency. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Going by what constitutes a point of order, that issue can be sorted out politically somewhere.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker:  It is not unprocedural.

May the hon. Member, please, continue?

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, the statecraft should now be taken over by a new leadership; a new people with new ideas, and now is the time. Now, is the time to decide for the sake of Zambia to usher in a leadership that is action oriented. We are tired of words; word to words. The people will not benefit from their words, but from actions that steer the country forward as opposed to the dangerous flip flopping exhibited by the MMD Government.

Madam Speaker, this country cannot afford to hide our failures in procedures and practices that do not work. This country has reached a stage where we need to break off from the past. We are not going to ride on inefficiencies, our failures in procedures and practices everyone one goes in the Government systems. We need to decide to have a new beginning in this country and be able to join the rest of the world because everywhere you go the urge of the people has just arrived and now is the time to step into our destiny.

 I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to debate this motion. I want to speak very strongly in favour of the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam, there are many instances in the world when solutions to problems appear to be easy and obvious. Quite often though, the real solution may require a deeper reflection and this is what I see missing in many of my hon. Colleagues, especially those who are debating from the other side of the House

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: They say that they are tired and indeed, they are tired. Therefore, I think this is the time for us to lead the way and show them the way.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, this reminds me of the time people thought the sun was going round the earth. Therefore, this required deeper reflection for somebody to say, actually, that is not the case. It took a long time and a lot of effort, as people were jailed and killed like we are being threatened, …

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … for saying this man is wrong, but eventually, the truth that somebody was talking about came round and this is what we hope to prove also.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, when I listen to my hon. Colleagues on the other side of the House, I really feel very sad because as I said the other time, many of us travel a lot and have heard people say, “Look at what has happened to Dubai, Mauritius and Malaysia.”

Madam Speaker, in reality, I have a lot of doubt as to whether when many of these colleagues go to these places, they step out of their hotels and conference rooms …

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … to find out how come the desert of Dubai is what it is today. How come this rock of Singapore, rock of Hong Kong is what it is today? I am saying this because the kind of solutions I hear from the other side, are a complete opposite of the terms of policies the same countries they are quoting instituted.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, people are giving the impression that poverty is created by the foreigners.

 Hon. Opposition Members: By yourself!

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, I will not apologise for the policies that I am prophesying, but what I can say is that they are making a very big mistake.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: The reality is that poverty exists today because there are not enough jobs around, especially those that pay well. In other words, the real problem is that there are too few jobs whether created by foreigners or locals.

In an earlier statement in this House, I illustrated this point by pointing out that the major employer in most of our towns is the Government. What is required in most of these towns whether you are talking about Kalomo, Serenje, Chipata or Chinsali are more enterprises so that they can employ people. That is what reduces poverty.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear1

Dr Musokotwane: These are enterprises to the extent that they are provided by local entrepreneurs and this Government is encouraging this. Where there are not enough local people providing the jobs, we should also be open enough to say anyone who can provide a job is part of our system and our country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in the current Act that we are debating, there are restrictions on foreigners who are getting involved in industrial minerals to the extent that exploiting industrial minerals and related activities creates jobs. Restricting foreigners means that job creation from the sector can only happen when a Zambian is ready to undertake an investment. If there is no Zambian on the scene to do this, then, potentially, jobs that can be created can only come long in the future.

Madam Speaker, our youth cannot wait for this undefined future because they need the jobs now and not tomorrow.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: This is why it is important to open up so that whoever comes first, local persons preferably, but also foreigners, then, those jobs that our youths are looking for can be created.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, those wishing to maintain the status quo are doing so under a mistaken belief and I would like to emphasise that point.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!  The House will listen to the hon. Minister’s debate. There is consultation which is a little too loud.

May the hon. Minister continue, please?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I was saying that they are dong so under the mistaken belief that they promoting local empowerment and nationalism.

Madam Speaker, empowerment means many different things. If you look at our country today, the biggest need is actually employment. This is true in Zambia and in any economy in this world. The biggest empowerment that can be provided to a people is employment. There is no country that I know in this world where everyone is an entrepreneur. In fact, entrepreneurs tend to be just about 5 or 10 per cent of the population. The rest of empowerment is about jobs.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Those of you who are jobs should be stopped from being created …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Musokotwane: Yes! This is what you are saying.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Those of you who are saying …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!  Let me guide the House. I think that we ought to know exactly how to respond whether you agree or you disagree.                                    

 

 

Running commentaries are not allowed. I need not to tell you what you should say if you agree or disagree, except that you need not shout the word “question”.

Mr Mubika: Ni Kambwili!

Madam Deputy Speaker: There is a proper way of questioning and not the screaming one. No!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Long live Madam Chair!

Madam Deputy Speaker: As we continue, let hon. Members use the correct language.

Mr Sing’ombe: Long live Madam Speaker!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Who told you the Speaker lives longer?

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister may continue, please.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I was telling those who are against this Bill that I am not sure whether they realise how much injustice they are doing to the youth of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Madam, if you look at our streets today, they are full of young people.

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: I think the hon. Member is aware that he cannot raise a point of order on the hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

Is it something procedural? If not, you do not raise a point of order on the hon. Minister. What is it that you want to say?

Dr Scott: Madam Speaker, it is a brief point of order and I would like to thank you for your indulgence.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: Is the hon. Minister in order not to preface his sarcastic and pedantic attacks on us by apologising because his Government brought this very Act which they are now trying to amend …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: … which is damaging …

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member may sit down because that point of order is not allowed. That is a debatable issue and that is what everybody is doing by saying, “We do not agree with what you brought here”. That is the debate that is going on.

Let the hon. Minister continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Member: No!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I was just saying that if you look along our streets, particularly Lusaka and Copperbelt and indeed the rural areas, there are thousands and thousands of youths who are looking for employment.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Hence, it would be inappropriate for us to say that these people can only get jobs if an hon. Member like Hon. Guy Scott is the one to provide the job. These people are looking for jobs irrespective of who gives them that job.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I also wish to say that those of my colleagues who said that empowerment is only about giving them business opportunities, again, they are being unfair to the youth because the empowerment you are talking about is basically for yourself and perhaps, for immediate members of your family.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: However, the empowerment we are talking about is an one that is trying to address thousands and thousands of youths who are looking for jobs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam, even if we were to say that it is a foreigner that provides jobs, are we really saying that does not bring business opportunities to the local people? What I know is that any company that sets up here in Zambia would want to buy certain goods and services from this economy. Those are business opportunities created.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Once a company sets up here in Zambia, whether it is foreign or local, it is going to employ labour. Those of my colleagues here and others who are in business, if they are baking bread, selling chickens or if they are in the transport business will benefit because these workers who have been employed will have money in their pockets and the business improves.

However, the most important point that we need to emphasise is that this law does not discriminate against Zambians at all.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: All it is saying is that, in addition to the Zambians who are permitted and are encouraged to conduct these businesses, let us not delay the creation of jobs by insisting that only Zambians can provide these jobs by exploiting them just for minerals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: That is absolutely important.

Lastly, Madam Speaker, the previous debater said that this Government is flip flopping.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Dr Musokotwane: I think it was only the day before when flip flopping in the most extreme sense was displayed by a letter which was published saying one thing …

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … and one hon. Member here tried to say, “No, we only rejected this because it was discriminatory.” Where did it ever say that it was discriminatory?

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, this Government is right to review provisions of the law and make corrections when necessary.

Madam Speaker, examples were also given of certain African countries by hon. Members who debated before, which have very strong business people coming to invest in Zambia. This is precisely the problem we are trying to avoid. If you look at those countries that were being quoted, there are very few who are prosperous.

Hon. PF Members: So?

Ms Imbwae: Are they nationals?

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, they are nationals but look at the vast majority of people in those countries. Are they happy?

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Kambwili: Like the Chinese!

Dr Musokotwane: Are they happy?

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister will not engage in conversation with the Members.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Speak through the Chair. Do not ask questions that they will respond to and then what next? Speak through the Chair and do not ask questions to the Members. Ask the Chair instead.

Dr Musokotwane: In short, I am saying that the countries that were mentioned are totally wrong examples to give because, only a few people have benefited from those countries, but the vast majority of their people are extremely unhappy and poor.

The countries that have succeeded are countries such as Mauritius where employees are actually being imported from other countries. Malaysia, which, at independence was poorer than Zambia, now imports labour and Dubai whose labour is being imported in millions and millions of numbers. Now, the question is: Have you examined the policies of these countries that have succeeded? Are they in line with the kind of thought that you people are expressing?

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I wish to submit that my colleagues on the other side need to change their orientation.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Dr Musokotwane: The problem is that their mindset is completely wrong.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have debated in support of this Bill and those who contributed to it. However, I will be brief to avoid repetition.

Madam Speaker, not all can be businessmen we need to create jobs. Creation of jobs is one sure way of alleviating poverty in our country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I am sure some hon. Members are where they are today because some of their forefathers were tea boys …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr M. B. Mwale: ... and through that, they can even aspire to be presidents in certain countries.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam, nobody stops Zambians from going into this industry …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, when Business was suspended, I was thanking the hon. Members for the support which they have given to the Bill.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, somebody raised the issue of raising equity from the stock exchange …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can we have order so that the hon. Minister can speaker properly? Continue, please.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, that hon. Member did not demonstrate to us how much he could raise on the Lusaka Stock Exchange. He did not say whether he could raise the US$350 million. In my statement, I said that we should be mindful of the fact that whatever we legislate should be corresponding with fully capacity built institutions for the implementation of the objective.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, there was no foreigner who had applied for mining rights at that time considering that the law was restrictive.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I just want to state that we should not use the death of the late President Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC to arouse the emotions of Zambians, but that we should debate facts as they are.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, one hon. Member referred to Mauritius, a country with a population of only one million people and which is 1/12th of the population of Zambian, and yet the level of unemployment cannot be compared to a country like that one.

Madam Speaker, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members of the House that if we only wanted the Lambas to develop the Copperbelt, I am sure it would not have been where it is today.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: As for Hon. Syakalima who is my small father but has deliberately decided to stay away, I want to inform him that I would have reported him to my father who is right behind me …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! There are no small fathers and fathers in this House.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, with those few words, I am appealing to the hon. Members to support the amendment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question that the Bill be now read the second time put and the House voted.

Ayes – (73)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr R. C. Banda
Mr A. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chishya
Mrs Chitika
Dr Chituwo
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Ms C. Kapwepwe
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Mabenga
Mr Machila
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Munkombwe
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Musosha
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mwaanga
Mr V. Mwale
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Pande
Mr D. B. Phiri
Professor Phiri
Dr Puma
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shawa
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sichilima
Mr Silavwe
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Taima
Ms Tembo
Mr Tetamashimba

Noes – (50)

Mr C. K. B. Banda
Mr E. M. Banda
Mr Beene
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Dr Chishimba
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kasoko
Dr Katema
Mr Katuka
Mr Lubinda
Mr Malama
Ms Masiye
Mr Matongo
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Msichili
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr Munaile
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr B. Mwila
Mr D. Mwila
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nsanda
Dr Scott
Mr Sejani
Mr Sikota
Mr Simuusa
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr Syakalima

Abstentions – (01)

Mr Mushili

Question accordingly agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 27th March, 2009.

_____{mospagebreak}

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

APPENDIX V ─ (Section 14)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Appendix V, on page 11, in paragraph (b), by the deletion of the figure “20%” and the substitution therefor of the figure “0%”.

Amendment agreed to. Appendix amended accordingly.

Appendix V, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE VALUE ADDDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Deputy Chairperson: You note that from Clause 4 we went to Clause 6. I hope that is going to be corrected.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION (2006) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2007) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SCHEDULE

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in the Schedule, on page 4, in column 3, under head 3, National Assembly, by the deletion of the figure “4,623,909,006” appearing against the word “Headquarters” and the substitution therefor of the figure “4,623,903,006”.

Amendment agreed to. Schedule amended accordingly.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment on page 5:

(i) in column 2, under Head 93, Office of the President-Northern Province, by the insertion of the word “Department” immediately after the words “Community Development”;

(ii) in column 3, by the deletion of the figure “548,215,621,701” appearing against the word “Total” and the substitution therefor of the figure “548,215,615,701.”

Amendment agreed to. Schedule further amended accordingly.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

 The Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Supplementary Expenditure Appropriation (2007) Bill, 2009

Third Readings on Friday, 27th March, 2009.

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Excess Expenditure Appropriation (2007) Bill.

Third Reading on Friday, 27th March, 2009.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed.

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2009

________

MOTION

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

VOTE 90/01 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – K27,490,712,120)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, the thrust of my debate yesterday was that the road infrastructure in the Eastern Province deserves this Government’s attention. In this regard, I mentioned the need to repair the Great East Road. Indeed, it is the Great East Road, but it is now the ‘Great Damaged’ Road of this country.

We know that as an agricultural production area, it is important that the produce that is produced in the Eastern Province is brought to the market in Lusaka, and the Great East Road plays a major role in this direction.

I also mentioned the need for the Mfuwe/Chipata, Lundazi/Chipata, Chipata/Chadiza and Chipata/Chama Road,, up to Muyombe to be tarred. I also mentioned the fact that there is a need to connect the Eastern Province to Serenje for us to be able to get to the Copperbelt using the shortest possible route. These are the things which people of Eastern Province are asking their Government to attend to. Further, we have roads which link Lundazi District to a neighbouring country, Malawi. The Lundazi/Lusinta Road and the Mwase/Jenda Road in Lundazi Constituency leading to Malawi need attention. These roads connect this country to neighbouring countries, and it is about time the Government paid attention to our needs.

Having talked about that, let me now turn to the issue of agriculture. All of us know that the mainstay of the economy in the Eastern Province is agriculture. The Government has been reminded several times that if they want to boost agricultural production, there is a need for timely delivery of farming inputs. We have been facing this problem for the last eighteen years. I do not know how many years the MMD Government has been in power, but this problem has been with us since MMD Government came into power.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: I appeal to the Government to, at least, address some of these problems. If this succeeds, it will be good for the Government and will in turn be good for all of us.

Mr Mwiimbu: And if they fail!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: If they fail, well, it is not for me to say.

Hon. UPND Member: Kuya bebele.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: I addition, we note that the Government through the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives is revisiting the question of the Fertiliser Support Programme. This is a move in the right direction, but my appeal to the Government is to ensure to move fast so that this year, we can have a new Fertiliser Support Programme that will address the main issues that have been highlighted on the Floor of this House from time to time.

On the issue of marketing, it is worthless to encourage people to grow crops. It is also worthless to advocate diversification into agriculture if you do not provide the people with markets. We have, time and again, on the Floor of this House, reminded the Government about the need to improve the marketing system in this country. I hope this time around, they will provide markets so that our farmers in the Eastern Province can be able to easily access markets to boost agricultural production.

Yes, the Government talked about irrigation farming. Fortunately, the colonial government constructed dams in most of the constituencies in the Eastern Province and I give them credit for this. Unfortunately, we forgot the use of these dams soon after independence. We forgot to appreciate why the colonial Government as early as 1963 built dams in the rural areas. I am happy that the Government has realised that there is a need to venture into irrigation farming with renewed vigour. Therefore, if this noble cause is to be realised, steps must be taken to de-silt most of the dams which are heavily silted. There may also be a need to construct additional dams.

On the issue of hospitals, yes, I give the Government a pat on the back for the construction of a hospital in Chadiza.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: I hope the works will be completed in good time. However, on a sad note, extension works at Lundazi Hospital which commenced as far back as 2000 stalled in 2001 and to date nothing has been done to finish this project. I have time and again reminded the Government to do something about this project. I hope this time, as a listening Government, they will not only listen, but also act on what they have been told.

Let me also talk about Katete District. This is a district that has no hospital. Had it not been for the hospital run by the Anglican Church and Catholics, we would have been nowhere. I urge the Government to construct a hospital in every district since this is the policy. It is important that the Government also pays attention to Katete District. This is my plea.

On the issue of airstrips, when the late President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, opened the House in the last session, he told us that Nyangwe Airstrip in Lundazi Constituency had been attended to and was operational. However, I am ashamed to report that nothing of that sort was done. You will note that only K129,149,860 million plus has been allocated in the Yellow Book. This is required to meet the expenses on maintenance of airstrips. I do not know how many airstrips will be repaired with K120 million because you need more than K469,746,060 to complete works on Nyangwe Airstrip. I appeal to the listening Government to allocate more funds next year for Nyangwe Airstrip.

Sinda District has a population of over 200,000 people. I appeal to the Government to consider it for district status because it meets all the requirements. As this is being considered, it will be important that to also make a provision for clean drinking water to the people of Sinda, as this is a major problem for the area.

Mr Konga nodding his head.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: I can see the hon. Minister responsible nodding in appreciation. Nodding alone will not be sufficient, but action will.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: On the Rural Electrification Programme, Chasefu Constituency, which I represent, has no electricity, but I think the Government can make an effort of connecting only twenty kilometres. How many times shall we be crying to you?  We are sympathetic to you and we expect you to be sympathetic to us. A good turn deserves another.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: In the last elections, Chasefu Constituency supported you in contemplation of you reciprocating. The appeal from the people of Chasefu Constituency is that they also want to be connected to the Malawian Grid. We are not asking for too much, and I know the able hon. Minister will take this into account. He has never failed us. I think his promises will materialise this time around.

Interruptions

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: On feeder roads, for agriculture to succeed in this country, it is important for the Government to attend to feeder roads. The Government happily informed this House that new equipment had been acquired from China on loan and supplied to the districts. Therefore, it is my hope and earnest prayer that something will be done this time around because feeder roads have to be repaired.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for the opportunity given to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, I stand here as a very proud Member of Parliament having come from the growth point of our Republic.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: In the first instance, I would like to thank, the former hon. Minister for the North-Western Province, Mr Kenneth Chipungu. Hon. Chipungu was a very aggressive young Minister. He was very effective and a friend of all. He was a friend of all the chiefs in the area, a friend of all the women’s groups and …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … a friend of all the youth groups. He was simply excellent. Hon. Chipungu, we thank you for the good that you did for the North-Western Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: You were a good Minister and we want you to continue working with the same spirit in your new portfolio. I think you will make it.

Mr Chairperson, in the same vein, on behalf of the North-Western Province, I would like to welcome the new hon. Minister. However, it should be remembered that our province has a section of the Kaonde speaking people. Therefore, Hon. Mulyata should be inducted and baptised by the Kaonde people when we take him to Kamusongorwa Hill in Kasempa Central and show him where his origins are.

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairman, I ask you to rule positively.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Then you are not asking.

Mr Mabenga: Is this man - oh sorry.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Is this hon. Member, sitting close to me, in order to insinuate that Hon. Mulyata who is not here should be baptised because of what happened at Kamusongorwa, …

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: … forgetting that at Kamusongorwa, the Kaondes were beaten to the dust.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Is he in order, Sir? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Since he is seated next to you and you have adequately debated your point of order, maybe you can consult further.

The hon. member may continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: I thank you Sir. On a serious note, we would like to welcome Hon. Mulyata to the North-Western Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the North-Western Province is very peculiar. It has three distinct groups of people who are the Lunda, Kaonde and Luvale.

Hon. Member: The Lamba.

Mr Mwanza: Thank you very much hon. Member. We also have the Lamba. Each of these tribes speaks a different language. I can speak to a Lunda person in Kaonde and he will respond in Lunda or Luvale and we will both understand one another. That is what makes us peculiar.

Mr Chairperson, that is why God has blessed us with all kinds of growth points in that area. Before the MMD Government, I would describe the province as a sleeping giant. Nobody thought that anything good could come out of the province. No attempt was made to improve the famous Mutanda/Chavuma Road because it was perceived uneconomic. However, today, that is the road linking the rest of the country to what is going to be called the oil rich province of our country. This sleeping giant has now awakened in several ways. I will itemise the two ‘landmines’ that have taken place in each district in the province.

Mr Milupi: Landmines? Have people not died?

Mr Mwanza: I will start with Solwezi.

Mr Muntanga: Landmines?

Mr Mwanza: Landmarks.  I beg your pardon.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, Solwezi is a growing town. It is exploding with development and growth.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: There is everything you can think of in Solwezi. Whatever you have in Lusaka, you will find in Solwezi. Thanks to the New Deal Government.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: There is intensive mining activity in Solwezi District at Kansanshi and Lumwana Mines.

Growth can also be seen in Lumwana. A lot of Members of Parliament who have visited Lumwana Mine have said to me, “Humphrey, you have a very good constituency”. This is because it is stinking with growth.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: That is what is happening in the North-Western Province. We are very proud of the development which started a long time ago and has. Mr Chairperson, as you know, this is one of the mines that is still supporting this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: In Solwezi, we have a new technical secondary school under construction. This is located in Mushindamo which is one of the remote areas of Solwezi District, bordering the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) near Kipushi. We thank the MMD Government for this.

In Solwezi Central, the Solwezi Trades Training Institute has been constructed and is operational. We also have a level 1 hospital at Lumwana Mine constructed by the Chinese investors. I was there two or three weeks ago. People who are despising Chinese investment must see these buildings and they will see that the Chinese mean well in terms of our development strategy.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, we have a new gigantic market on the road between Solwezi and Mutanda in Chawama Township.

Sir, in addition to this, we have significant improvements to the T5, that is, the road from Solwezi to Mwinilunga. This has been partially completed up to Lumwana and one can drive comfortably on that road. Again, these are the developments brought about by the New Deal Administration.

Mr Chairperson, side by side with this, we have the North-Western Water Supply and Sewerage Company. This company has offices in all the seven districts in the province and it is providing clean drinking water. You will not hear cases of cholera, dysentery or any other waterborne disease associated with unsafe drinking water in the province because of the work being done by this company. The North-Western Water Supply and Sewerage Company started operations in 2000 and it has done a lot in all these districts that I have mentioned. Upcoming companies need to strategise with the North-Western Water Supply and Sewerage Company to learn one or two things from them because, in my view, they are doing a good job of providing water and sewerage services.

With regard to Kasempa, I am afraid I do not want to talk about Kamusungule again because I might get another point of order. This is the seat of that hill. It is well connected from Solwezi into Kasempa on a tarmac road. With excellent roads, indeed!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: This all the work of the MMD Government.

There is the old Mukinge Hospital in Kasempa. A number of hon. Members of Parliament know where Mukinge Hospital is located. We are blessed in that this government has provided an extension to that nursing school and some hostels for the nurses.

Mr Chairperson, in most of the districts in the North-Western Province, we are blessed with mining activities and small-scale farming apart from some areas in Zambezi West and Zambezi East. Due to the geographical location of these areas, they are always affected by floods and it becomes very difficult to produce crops. The rest of the North- Western Province does not even require relief food because the people there are able to feed themselves.

Mr Chairperson, as North-Western Province, we are very proud because we can feed ourselves. We do not stand here and complain …

Mr Katuka: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, I rarely stand on points of order. Is the hon. Member who is debating in order to say that the whole of North-Western Province does not require relief food when my constituency is flooded and I have requested for relief food from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit?

Sir, is he in order to mislead the nation?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mwanza will cover that point of order as he debates.

Hon. Mwanza, continue, please.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I think I indicated that there are exceptions to this and that is one of the areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwanza: Sir, in view of these developments, I would like to appeal to my listening Government to look at the road between Kalulushi and Kalengwa turn off because this road is in very bad shape. This is a road that joins the Copperbelt Province and North-Western Province. In fact, Lufwanyama Constituency is part of this.

Mr Chairperson, we also require help in terms of the Solwezi/Chingola Road. This road needs to be patched because of the heavy traffic from Lumwana to Solwezi. This is bringing money to the province.

Sir, from Mufumbwe, we are connected to our traditional cousins. There is a road that is going to connect Mufumbwe to Kaoma in the Western Province. This is how it should be. The people of North-Western Province have been long standing friends of the people of Western Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: This connectivity will enable the people in these two provinces to move easily and conduct business.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: We also appeal to the Government to come up with a position as quickly as possible on the formation of a new district at Mumbezhi where Lumwana Mine is. We want the new district to be called Mumbezhi and the town, Lumwana.

Mr Chairperson, you will notice that with all these developments in all the districts, the economic boom is obvious. The people of North-Western Province must use this opportunity to support their Government to bring more development to the area.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, we would also like to appeal to the Government to establish customs offices at the Angolan Border where Chavuma and Mwinilunga are. We would like to make more money like we are doing at the Chirundu Border Post. By so doing, we can have our pineapples exported to Angola. This will enable us trade freely with the Angolans.

Sir, we also appeal to the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry to ensure that the people in the North-Western Province, who are engaged in business, can visit Angola like the others visit China. It will be important for the two countries to exchange notes and be able to develop their countries.

Mr Chairperson, I am a man of few words …

Laughter

… and I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Northern Province.

Mr Chairperson, in the first instance, allow me to, once more, welcome our new hon. Minister for Northern Province, Hon. Charles Shawa.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Hon. Shawa, we welcome you to the Northern Province, which we normally call the forgotten province by the MMD Government.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Kapeya: Eeh eeh! Mwayambako ukukana?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you please use the language we have agreed to use in the House? Withdraw “Mwayambako ukukana”, whatever that means.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw it and replace it with a piece of advice to concur with whatever we are telling them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, our new hon. Minister for the province should bear in mind that people of the province are anxiously waiting to see how he will apply his developmental gears for the province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, it is a well known fact that the Northern Province is the largest province in Zambia with twelve districts. However, when it comes to budgetary allocations, the province is treated the same as the small provinces with very few districts.

Mr Chairperson, at the beginning of 2008, hon. Members of Parliament from the Northern Province made an appointment to see the current President, who was then the Vice-President, at Government House, where he was residing at the time. The main reason hon. Members of Parliament from Northern Province wanted to see the then Vice-President was the same issue of budgetary allocation to the province, which is always the same as other provinces that have few districts. We have, however, not seen any change this year in as a far as budgetary allocation is concerned. The people of Northern Province are waiting to see what our hon. Minister will do for us on the issue of budgetary allocation. We have a feeling that our new hon. Minister will definitely make a change in this area

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I would like to also inform you that the hon. Minister attended the burial of the late Chief Luchembe in Mpika. It was this time that most people in Mpika saw the new hon. Minister for the first time. The people of Mpika were very thankful to our new Minister for abandoning his official duties to travel to Mpika to attend the burial of our beloved chief. 
Mr Chairperson, when people from Mpika Central Constituency saw our new hon. Minister, some of them came to whisper to me saying that, “we hope the hon. Minister with the size of his body …

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: … “will do something important corresponding to the size of his body”.

 Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Therefore, people of Mpika Central and the Northern Province as a whole are expecting big from our new hon. Minister.

Sir, let me talk about the exploration of minerals in the Northern Province.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa SC, may his soul rest in peace, assured this country that in every province, he would ensure that a mine is opened. Therefore, we had a feeling that, indeed, the President would do according to his word. Why are we saying so? The Northern Province is very rich in minerals.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: You can go to any district in the Northern Province you will find minerals like copper, manganese, blue sky mica and many others. We are also waiting because during the October Presidential By-elections, the MM Government had a slogan of continuity. We are yet to see that continuity put into action by the current MMD Government.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: To date, we cannot see signs of that continuity. All that we have seen is that between Luwingu and Mansa, is a group of Chinese who are busy exploiting for minerals. This afternoon, we were talking about citizens’ empowerment, but Zambians have not been given a chance to mine or exploit minerals in different parts of this country.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, we are waiting. The people of Zambia are waiting to see how you are going to put your pronouncements which you made during the October elections and there would be continuity in this country.

Mr Chisala: Bika yama bika!

Mr Kapeya: Sir, let me come to the issue of roads. All the major and feeder roads in the Northern Province are a total disaster, starting from Serenje on the Great north Road. One cannot dare to travel at night for fear of risking his or her life. It is always advisable to drive during day. The entire road from Serenje to Nakonde is in a terrible state. The entire road from Mpika to Kasama, Kasama to Mbala and Nakonde has the same history. Kasama to Luwingu, Kasama to Mporokoso and Mporokoso to Kaputa are also in the state.

Sir, you should mark my words. At the beginning of my debate, I said that the Northern Province was a forgotten province. We are yet to see what was said as per promise in October, 2008. We are watching.

 Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, indeed, we were given some new equipment for roads, which this Government ordered from China. Only 30 kilometres in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency was worked on when we had the By-elections. Since then, the equipment has been abandoned and is still there in the Province to date. We have been given from K2 billion for fuel from this budget to keep the equipment moving.

Mr Chairperson, the province has twelve districts and it has been allocated K2 billion. Will the K2 billion be enough to rehabilitate the feeder roads? I doubt if that K2 billion will be adequate. We are, therefore, optimistic that the new hon. Minister will look into this issue.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to say something on the issue of water in the province. Despite the province having so many rivers and streams which run throughout the year, there is hardly any access to clean and treated water in the whole twelve districts. Sometimes people think that due to the size of the province, the Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company has failed to cope with the work.

For this reason, we are requesting, the new hon. Minister, through you, Mr Chairperson, to look into this issue. People are even suggesting that since the province is large it would be appropriate to have two companies to service the twelve districts …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: … rather than having one company running the water and sewerage services in the province.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing made a promise to the twelve districts in Northern Province that complained about the water reticulation in the province. Each time we approached the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, we were assured that a company or donor by the name of Padaer would come to Northern Province and correct the water reticulation. To date, we have not seen any improvement in the area of water reticulation.

Finally, Mr Chairperson, you know we from Northern Province are people of few words.

Hon. Members: Aah!
Interruptions

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, allow me now to talk about education. We call a spade a spade. The Ministry of Education has tried its best.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: The several times that I have met Professor Lungwangwa in the corridors, I have told him that he has made a name in the Northern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: He is a man and a half!

Mr Kapeya: He has built us a few new basic schools in the Northern Province. At the moment, five new high schools are being constructed in the province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Hold on!

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, I would like to request the hon. Minister of Education to ensure that the completion of these high schools in the province is on schedule.

Finally, I started by saying that the Northern Province is the largest province in Zambia.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: My appeal to the new hon. Minister is to consider providing us with a university for the province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Definitely we need a university in the Northern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Yes, quite a lot has been done along the line of rail where we have three universities have been established, but can we also look at having another university up north.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on behalf of the Southern Province. Indeed, it would be odd if the capital of Southern Province which is Livingstone was not heard.

Mr Chairperson, the Southern Province used to be a land of plenty; a land of flowing rivers, plentiful crops and fruits, over a million heads of animals; regular rainfall, but unfortunately, that has all changed. Indeed, when it was a land of plenty, I think that tempted a band of marauding Lozis to come over and plunder the Southern Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: That which attracted those plunderers from the west is unfortunately no longer there and it is something that we must look at. What has happened to cause the Southern Province to no longer be that land of plenty? Agriculture was strongest in Zambia in the Southern Province, but that can no longer be said to be the case. In my introduction, I did talk about the regular rainfall, the flowing rivers and the meadows that have dried up mainly due to climate change and also due to the agricultural practices that have been adopted. We, therefore, need to look at agriculture and see what needs to be done. Those animals that were plentiful are no longer there. In the last couple of years, there have been attempts at cattle restocking but this has not been undertaken in a very systematic and proper way.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: I would state that the Government’s plan in terms of restocking is much like trying to feel a bucket which has a hole with water. You will keep on pouring the water into the bucket and it will keep on through that hole. What I am saying is that all the efforts at restocking will not bear fruit if we do not, first of all, address the underlying problem which led to the dissemination of the cattle population in the first place. You have to look at issues such as the animal diseases which are there before you can have successful restocking. Otherwise, it will be water into that bucket which has a hole. We need to address issues such as the dip tanks which have now gone into disuse because of the non supply of the necessary chemicals and the lack of veterinary extension officers.

It is disheartening that there is now a ministry for livestock and I hope that wherever the hon. Minister is, he is listening and he will ensure that the issue of cattle restocking is looked into and a new plan is devised to make it effective.

Mr Chairperson, there is also a need to look at agriculture in terms of the delivery of inputs. It is a shame that despite our fertiliser supplies in Zambia coming in via South Africa, they by-pass  the Southern Province just to be stock pilled in Lusaka …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 27th March, 2009.