DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF TEN ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 26th November, 2009 

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

FORMER EMPLOYEES OF THE MECHANICAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT

210. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when the Government would pay terminal benefits to former employees of the Mechanical Services Department (MSD) that was abolished in the 1990s;

(b)    how many former employees of the MSD were still unpaid and what the total amount outstanding was; and 

(c)    why it had taken long to pay the terminal benefits.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Kalila): Madam Speaker the ex-MSD employees consist of various groups that were scattered across Zambia. These former employees have not been satisfied with the way their terminal benefits were affected and this has resulted in court cases from as way back as 1992.

The Lusaka based former MSD employees, through a court ruling, were awarded K5,175,000 each across the board that was paid in 1999. The Supreme Court judgement of 2006 states that the former employees were over paid by the payment of K5,175,000 which included damages and breach of contract. The former employees were adequately compensated as the employees were receiving wages ranging from K200 and K900 per month at the time their employment was terminated.

The Lusaka based former MSD employees now claim that the Supreme Court ruling was unfair.

Madam Speaker, records held at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning indicate that all the former MSD employees were paid the K5,175,000 each.

The delay in paying the former MSD workers their terminal benefits was as a result of the duration of these court cases.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Minister with regard to waiting of court cases to be finished, I would like to find out why the Government took this route and why after the first judgement, which went all the way to the Supreme Court, it simply did not resolve the other issues to save on legal costs.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, it is a complicated case because there has been no agreement on the part of the workers. Then, some of the workers have come to say that there was a consent judgement which was given, but did not accept that they should have this consent judgement. So, they disputed the consent judgement which was entered into on their behalf by their lawyers. 

Secondly, some of them have also said that they did not even see the cheques which were purported to have been received. This week, we will meet them and have agreed that there are two issues. The first one is that they have disputed being part of the consent judgement. Secondly, that the payment was not given to them by the Treasury. So, we will go back to the same root. We will go to the Ministry of Justice to establish whether what they are saying is that the consent judgement was entered into falsely by their lawyers. So, that can be looked into. 

We will establish the question of whether they received the cheques from the Treasury or not because some of them are likely to have received them. Others are saying that, indeed, they have seen the photocopies of the cheques in their names, but not the actual cheques. So, the Treasury must know what happened. Therefore, we have said that in the light of this, we will go back to the Ministry of Justice and also to the Treasury to establish whether the false claim the employees are making on the consent judgement is true and also that they did not receive the payments from the Treasury.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, may I learn from the hon. Minister how the fleet of Government vehicles is being maintained in the absence of the MSD and whether the maintenance of these vehicles is more satisfactory than was the case before.

The Deputy Speaker: That sounds very different from the issue of workers. Next question.

NATIONAL HOUSING AUTHORITY HOUSING UNITS

211. Mr Mwango asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    how many housing units were owned by the National Housing Authority (NHA) country-wide as of December, 2008;

(b)    what the total value of the properties at (a) was; and

(c)    what the future plans of the authority were regarding building more houses country-wide.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muteteka): Madam Speaker, the number of housing units owned by the NHA as at 31st December, 2008 was 242. However, as at 30th September, 2009, all these housing units were sold out to sitting tenants.

Madam Speaker, the total value of the properties at (a) is K61 billion.

Madam Speaker, the NAH has put in place programmes for the increase of housing structures in Zambia from 2010 to 2015 and these are:

Prepaid Housing Scheme Programme

This is an initiative by NHA where would be house owners pay deposit for a house to be constructed. This is intended to assist members of the communities to own houses at competitive prices.

Joint Venture Programmes

Madam Speaker, this is a public-private-partnership (PPP) arrangement in which the private sector will be invited to participate as partner to the NHA to construct houses for sale. The private sector will provide funds where as the NHA will provide land and consultancy services.

NHA Housing Investment Programme

This is a programme where the NHA will source funds from financing houses to build houses for sale to the public and institutions.

Madam Speaker, all these initiatives are aimed at easing the housing problems in Zambia and it is anticipated that 5250 houses will be constructed by 2013 country wide with twenty squatter compounds upgraded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, may I know if there are any plans of extending the prepaid housing programme to rural areas.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Madam Speaker, indeed, there are plans to extend to the rural districts because the NHA, in accordance with our national housing policy, is mandated not only to concentrate in urban areas, but also in rural areas. So, definitely the plans to extend to the rural areas are there. 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister why the Government does not utilise the expertise of the NHA to construct institutional houses for hospitals and schools rather than giving the contracts to shoddy contractors.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, unfortunately the NHA cannot just take up projects with out being contracted. It must compete with other parties that are in the construction sector. Where it is possible for it to construct houses, the NHA does so based on competitive conditions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister what has happened to the K61 billion that was realised from the sale of houses by the NHA and if future plans involve housing projects in Chingola.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, the proceeds from the sale of houses are reinvested into construction of more houses and the programme will even extend to other areas such as Chingola, which the hon. Member of Parliament mentioned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): The NHA is one of the few parastatals still awaiting to be sold. I would like to find out whether the institution is making profit and if it is, whether there are plans to sell it.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to categorically state that, at the moment, there are no intentions to sell the NHA, especially that we have put in place the PPP policy. This will enable the NHA partner with the private sector in order to provide adequate housing in the country. 

In terms of profitability, we are quite sure that it is doing what it can within the limited resources and with the PPP policy in place, which I have just mentioned, the authority should be able to even do more than it has done before.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to congratulate the new hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing for his appointment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: However, I would like to tell the hon. Minister that I would describe the NHA as Lusaka housing authority because houses are only concentrated in Lusaka. What guarantee can the hon. Minister give this House and the nation that hence forth, it deserves to be called the NHA rather than Lusaka housing authority?

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Luapula for that very important question. Indeed, since it is called the NHA, it means that it should not just construct houses in Lusaka. I understand the hon. Member’s use of that expression since most housing projects are initiated in Lusaka. However, I can assure the hon. Member that the NHA, using the concept of a national institution, will endeavour to extend to other areas and not just concentrate on Lusaka. 

I thank you, Madam. 

__________

MOTION

COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS REPORT

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the First Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 24th November, 2009.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Tembo (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Interruptions 

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, in line with their terms of reference, your Committee resolved to study the following topical issues for 2009:

(i)    money laundering in Zambia;

(ii)    women in the defence and security wings; and

(iii)    Zambia’s membership to the united states of Africa.

Madam, money laundering is one of the modern crimes affecting most countries in the world today. It is basically the process through which criminals attempt to hide the source of the wealth they get from their illicit activities. This way, they avoid prosecution and confiscation of criminal funds. Some of these illicit activities include: illegal arms sales, smuggling, drug trafficking, operating of prostitution rings and human trafficking, to mention, but a few. These illicit activities which precede money laundering are referred to as predicate offences.

Madam Speaker, allow me to state that money laundering has wide and serious adverse affects on a country’s security, economic, political and social structures. If left unchecked, money laundering can erode the social fabric of a country and increase corruption and crime in general. It can distort the national currency and interest rates, cause capital flight and bring about political instability. The vice of money laundering is not confined to one country because of the globalised nature of the world economic order today. In this regard, most governments in the world, today, have been pooling resources to fight the vice.

Madam Speaker, your Committee were gratified to note that Zambia has been actively involved in the global fight against money laundering as evidenced by its participation in a number of international activities and the enactment of relevant laws to combat money laundering. This is commendable indeed.

Madam Speaker, having said so, your Committee are of the view that more can be done to improve the fight against money laundering. For example, they observe that co-operation among the various security wings could be scaled up and enhanced. They, therefore, urge the Government to improve co-operation among security wings.

Your Committee further observe that Zambia does not have an administrative type of Financial Intelligence Unit (FIU). This is a kind of investigative unit which is mainly involved in collecting information and providing detailed analysis for onward transmission to relevant security wings. The absence of such a unit has led to low reporting of cases involving money laundering, particularly by the banks. In this regard, your Committee urge the Government to establish an FIU to investigate cases related to money laundering.

Madam, your Committee are dismayed that apart from the Bank of Zambia, most of the supervisory bodies such as the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), Pension and Insurance Authority (PIA), Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA), have not issued anti-money laundering directives to their members or member institutions. In this regard, money launderers have tended to route and process their proceeds through these institutions.

Your Committee urge the Government to ensure that all regulatory authorities issue appropriate anti-money laundering directives to the regulatory institutions.

Madam Speaker, your Committee are concerned that there is limited capacity among law enforcement agencies and regulators in dealing with and curbing money laundering. They, therefore, recommend that the Government comes up with training programmes for law enforcement agencies and regulators. This should be a continuous process because people involved in this vice of money laundering are sophisticated and are always coming up with new ideas and strategies.

Your Committee also observed that although Parliament passed the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act (PPMLA), this piece of legislation has not been amended to bring on board and keep pace with international best practices and standards to curb money laundering. They, therefore, urge the Government to bring this piece of legislation to Parliament for amendment to address the current limitations in that law.

Madam Speaker, regarding the participation of women in the defence and security wings, your Committee received submission from the heads of defence and security institutions …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! It seems the House has another agenda totally. The House is not paying attention to the hon. Member on the Floor. The rest can be done during recess. Can we listen to the debate.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Dr Machungwa: … and were also privileged to visit the Luapula Army Command in Mansa. Your Committee also observed that there is inadequate accommodation for the soldiers and that, in some cases, our men and women in uniform rent accommodation in townships with civilians. This situation is neither right nor correct. Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government to improve the accommodation situation for the military.

Madam Speaker, your Committee are aware that because of proximity to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) border and the historical difficulties along the entire stretch of the border in the Luapula and Northern Provinces, plans to build an army barracks at Kawambwa had long been mooted. In this regard, a suitable piece of land in Kawambwa had been earmarked and surveyed for that purpose. However, to date, no funds have been allocated. 

Your Committee urge the Government to quickly provide funding for the construction of the barracks. This is because the establishment of a military base at Kawambwa will increase the patrols and improve maintenance of security and generally improve our military readiness along that border which has proved to be very problematic in the past.

Regarding the proposed United States of Africa, your Committee appreciate the importance of the proposed union Government and, therefore, support its eventual establishment. However, they urge the Government to resist the push for immediate establishment of the proposed United States of Africa because the Zambian people have not been thoroughly consulted and only limited studies have been conducted on the matter. The Government should advocate for the consolidation of the Regional Economic Communities (RECS) such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC). This will give Zambia and other countries adequate time to undertake the necessary reforms and harmonisation in all the sectors to enable the country and people derive maximum benefits.

In conclusion, I wish to thank all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for their valuable input to the findings of your Committee. I also wish to thank the Clerk and her staff for the support rendered to your Committee during their deliberations. 

Finally, I wish to record my indebtedness and gratitude to you, Madam, for affording your Members the opportunity to serve on this very important Committee.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to debate now or later?

Mr Tembo: Now, Madam.

Madam Speaker, I wish to second the Motion which has been ably moved by the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs. Since the Chairperson has highlighted the main issues, my speech will be very brief.

On money laundering, your Committee observe that there is limited information among the general public. Therefore, your Committee urge the Government, through the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), to scale up its sensitisation programme.

On the women in the defence and security wings, your Committee observe that there is no policy to encourage women seeking employment in the defence and security wings.

Your Committee are aware that it is difficult for women to operate in the combatant areas because of the nature of the work. They are also aware that employing women who do not meet the standard requirements might compromise the security of the country. However, they note that there are other non-combatant areas where women can be encouraged to participate.

In this respect, your Committee urge the Government to come up with measures to promote employment of women in non-combatant areas of the defence and security wings.

Madam Speaker, your Committee were informed that few women have interest in military employment opportunities. This is as a result of limited information available to the public on the existing opportunities in the defence and security wings.

Madam Speaker, your Committee urge the Government, through the defence and security wings, to come up with a robust programme to sensitise the public, particularly the womenfolk on the existing opportunities in the defence and security wings.

Madam Speaker, your Committee applaud the Zambia Police Force and the effort to increase the participation of women in their operations. They note that with the introduction of community policing, a lot of women have been engaged in the police force. This is commendable indeed.

In conclusion, allow me to join the Chairperson of the Committee in thanking you for according us the opportunity to serve on this important Committee. I also wish to thank the members of your Committee for affording me this opportunity to second the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.    

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate in support of the Motion. Before I do that, allow me to congratulate Dr Kazonga on having taken up the position of hon. Minister in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Let me also welcome Hon. Dr Musonda and Hon. Mwapela to the Middle Bench.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!     

Dr Mwansa: I want to begin my debate by commending the Chairperson and hon. Members of the Committee for producing a high quality report. The report itself is concise, but quite informative.                                     

I will restrict myself to issues raised on the Ministry of Defence in general and especially issues arising from the low level representation of women in the military. 

Madam Speaker, we recognise the fact that there are few women employed in the Defence Forces, especially at the senior level. There is, however, no discrimination whatsoever on the basis of sex in terms of employment in the Defence Forces. Both sexes are accorded the same opportunities.

Available statistics indicate that the representation of women at the senior level is as follows: 

(i)    Zambia Army, 20 per cent of the senior officers are women;

(ii)     Zambia Air Force, 10 per cent of the senior officers are women; and 

(iii)    the Zambia National Service, female senior officers account for 9.7 per cent. 

The services are made up of commissioned and non-commissioned officers with commissioned staff providing leadership and management teams. The commanders for the services are promoted from co-functionary units such as the Infantry in the Zambia Army and Flight Squadron in the Zambia Air Force. Unfortunately, many commissioned staff who are women are not in such units, hence their failure to qualify for these positions.

What account for low levels of women in the defence forces are as follows:

(i)    low interest; 

(ii)    lack of information; and

(iii)    apprehension or fear and negative perceptions. 

The answer to the problem of low levels of women in Defence Forces lies in the sensitisation of the public on the opportunities existing in the defence for women, especially the non-combative areas. However, we have to be sensitive and cognizant of the fact that there are certain facilities specifically peculiar to women which cannot be provided, for instance, the instability of certain security operations for women and also the fact that giving special treatment as already alluded to by the seconder of the Motion may compromise the security of the country.

Madam Speaker, finally, I want to say that we will give a more detailed response in our Action Taken Report, but allow me also to welcome my very able Deputy, Hon. Mulyata, who has joined the Ministry of Defence.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the House for the overwhelming support given to this report. I also thank the hon. Minister of  Defence for being very supportive of the report.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

_____________________{mospagebreak}

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEESS in
 the Chair]

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) (No. 2) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Amendment of Charging Schedule)

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 3, in lines 25 to 26, by the deletion of the words “one million five hundred sixty thousand kwacha” and the substitution therefor of the words “one million nine hundred and twenty thousand kwacha”.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, this is a Government that has a heart for the poor people. This is why this Government has undertaken a number of initiatives such as the removal of the crop levy. This Government has been working very hard to bring investments to the country so that jobs are created to remove poverty.

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Dr. S. Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, this Government does so many things to improve the lives of the people in the country.

Mr Chairperson, we agree to the amendment ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr. Musokotwane: ... because as I have just indicated, we are here to fight poverty unlike those who make cosmetic gestures for appearances and look like they are in support of poverty reduction. This is in principle for us and we do not do it for posing and cosmetic purposes.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Clause 5 amended accordingly.

Dr Musokotwane:  Mr Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 5, on page 4:

(a)    after line 4 

by the insertion of the following new paragraph (c):

(c)    in clause (d) of subparagraph (1) of paragraph 2, by the deletion of 

    The words “eight million, four hundred thousand kwacha” and the 

    Substitution therefore of the words “nine million, six hundred 

    Thousand kwacha”;
    
(b)    in line 6

by the renumbering of paragraph (c) as paragraph (d); and

    (c)    by the deletion of the words “subparagraph (1) of”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause further amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

 

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BIIL, 2009

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of section 2)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3:

(i)    in line 7 by the deletion of the word “place” and the substitution therefor of the word “places”; and 

(ii)    by the deletion of the word “definition” and the substitution therefor of the work “definitions”

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_________ 

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment), Bill, 2009

Third Reading on 27th November, 2009.

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Report Stages on Friday, 27th November, 2009.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in
 the Chair]

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands – K34,712,481,423).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, I was told about what transpired in the debate, yesterday, concerning what I had debated on Tuesday and, I think, it is only fitting that I offer my apologies to my colleagues in the United Party for National Development (UPND) and Patriotic Front (PF), particularly Mr Muntanga and Mr Mukanga. I am sincerely sorry for my debate.

I say, I am sorry because quite clearly, I touched on a raw nerve. I am sure those from the medical field such as Dr Puma, Dr Chituwo, Dr Kawimbe and Dr Musonda will agree with that a raw nerve is like a wound. If you put salt on a wound, it hurts.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: This is not a wound.

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Sichilima: Ema presidents aya!

Mr Kambwili: Uli kapuba iwe!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sikota: Perhaps, to even say that it was like salt on a wound is an understatement. Perhaps, I should make a proper analogy and, again, the medical people will understand. If you have somebody subjected to vivisection, …

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Somebody subjected to …

Mr Syakalima: On a point of order, Sir

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

You cannot behave in such a disorderly manner.

Continue, hon. Member, please.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, I am looking at the Order Paper. When you rose, you said that, yesterday, we ended the debate on the Vote of the Ministry of Lands. I realise that we are running out of time to pass the budget. 

Is Hon. Sakwiba Sikota in order to be going round issues that are not even contained in the Ministry of Lands Policy debate? He will waste about twelve minutes instead of quickly finishing his debate so that if he has nothing to say, other people can takeover. I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Sikota has twelve minutes and fifty-two seconds. If he is going round, he is actually eating into his time. For the interest of this House, Hon. Sikota can take that point of order into account.

Continue, hon. Member, please.

Mr Sikota: Sir, I thank you for your guidance. As I said, it is quite clear from the point of order, that the wound is still wide and open, ...

Laughter

Mr Sikota: … hence, the prompt standing up and …

Laughter 

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. The Standing Orders are very clear. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, a learned State Counsel, who should interpret the Standing Orders clearly, in order to talk about Hon. Mukanga and Hon. Muntanga in his debate who are not in the House. Furthermore, describing them as serious wounds.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Muyanda: Sir, since when did this House ever debate itself. I need your serious ruling if we have to debate hon. Members who are not in the House at the material time. 

The Deputy Chairperson: My understanding was that the hon. Member who was debating apologised for whatever he might have said, yesterday, that injured the two people he mentioned. 

Hon. Members, we need to move on. This is why, sometimes, we, as presiding officers, are forced to do things which you do not like. This is the last point of order I am allowing.

Continue, hon. Member, please.

Hon. Government Members: Long live the Chair!

Mr Kambwili: Imwe ba Major Chizhyuka mwali pwa imwe!

Mr Sikota: Sir, I thank you for your protection. I would like to extend my apologies to the hon. Member for Sinazongwe as I see it fitting to also apologise to him, as I offended him too.

Mr Kambwili: Imwe chimo fye neshilu!

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson …

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: No, I made a ruling. 

Mr Muyanda Stood up.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I will not allow that point of order. 

Continue, hon. Member, please.

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection. I was saying that to say that it is like salt on a wound is a bit of an understatement.

Major Chizhyuka: It could be so!

Mr Sikota: It is more than that and I turn to the doctors in this House to give me support if I am right. It is more like having somebody subjected to vivisection.

Mr Magande: What is that?

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Then you take that person who you has just been vivisected and drop him into the Dead Sea, the saltiest sea in the world.

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, I will move on. No wonder there was so much screaming, if the analogy I gave was correct.

Laughter

Mr Sikota: I can see that there is still quite a bit of screaming going on.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mudala, they are using you to finish you politically.

Mr Sikota: Yesterday, Dr Machungwa debated very well on the issue of land. He had a lot of valid points. However, there is one area that I disagreed with him. This is on the kind of contracts that organisations such as Meanwood have where they give conditions on what types of buildings can be put up and the right to be the ones to buy back the property. 

The reason I disagree with Dr Machungwa on that point is that, sometimes, it is necessary to have these kinds of clauses in order to ensure that the value of property in a particular area is kept to a certain standard. Therefore, if you have a condition which says that you have to have certain types of buildings, you cannot depart from it. It is not that they are taking over the functions of the planning authorities, but merely trying to ensure that a certain standard is maintained. However, I am totally in agreement with Dr Machungwa on the other issues that he raised. 

Sir, I would like to touch on the issue of Cuba. Recently, I had the opportunity of going to Cuba with my colleague Hon. Matongo from the UPND. Whilst in Cuba, we visited an area called Varadero Tourist Resort. This is an area in Cuba where the Government deliberately decided to develop the land and restrict its usage to tourism. As a result, the structures that have been put up there are very impressive.

It was particularly important for me because in Livingstone, that is a kind of thing that we are trying to do with the Livingstone Area Development Plan. What I saw and learnt is no doubt going to assist the people of Livingstone greatly. In fact, it is not only the people of Livingstone who are going to benefit, but also the country in general.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of land, there are disturbing reports relating to the Chalala and Bauleni areas of Lusaka. There has been a lot of land grabbing by political cadres. I hope that when the hon. Minister stands up to windup debate on this vote, he is going to address this issue. He should tell us who is to be blamed and who the culprits are in this land grabbing issue, especially in the Chalala and Bauleni areas.

Mr Chairperson, I have just caught the eye of Hon. Lubinda and I would like to congratulate him in that when I was going through the various reports regarding Chalala and Bauleni, he was singled out as being the only councilor who refused to get a plot.

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Mr Sikota: That is why I am singling Hon. Lubinda out. Quite clearly, his association with the United Liberal Party (ULP) was not in vain. He still has some of the principles from the ULP in him.

Interruptions

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, the allocation of land is very important. To avoid encroachments, the ministry must act very quickly when there is land which is not being utilised by repossessing it so that more land is made available to others. Giving Zambians access to land is extremely important. I think that is something that a number of debaters touched on. 

Mr Chairperson, it is true that land and issues surrounding it have brought about wars. If you look at the history of the world, land is an issue that a lot of time is the cause of war. 

Sir, Major Chizhyuka will agree with that land is important to the people.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear! All the time!

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Sir, the Second World War, was partly as a result of a desire for a greater Germany with more land. It was a war about land. Palestine, Israel and wherever you go, have wars over land. The greatest war we have had, like I said, the Second World War was caused by land. 

Sir, when I was in the United Kingdom, I remember being invited by a sweet quaint old couple for tea at their home. Amongst those who were invited, were also some German students who were at the same university where we were. The deep feelings of war and so on were still evident even then. I am saying so because when one of the students we were with decided to talk about the Second World War and the land issue, our host had to clear his throat, to quiet us down and said, “Do not talk about the war”. He said that because there were the Germans there. This is because he realised how sensitive and delicate this whole issue of land was. You know the British, they are diplomatic, that is why he tried to be nice and courteous. That is why he pretended to cough and said, “do not talk about the war”. I learnt about being sensitive from the British host and realised that certain things are delicate.  I am somebody who does not forget lessons very easily. It is for that reason that from now on, I will show sensitivity and delicateness. I will not again mention the president of the pact, Mr Sata and his vice-president, Mr Hichilema.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Minister of Lands (Mr Daka): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful to Hon. Dr Machungwa for the concerns he raised in his debate. They are valid concerns which, as a ministry and Government, we must take cognisance of. As much as we appreciate his positive comments, we realise that there are certain issues that we have to look at before we can repossess the land that he talked about. We cannot repossess land with impunity. There is a statutory condition that we give land developers. We give the land developers an entry note which states that if the land is not developed within a particular period, the ministry will re-enter it.

Sir, we must recognise that the ministry and the Government do not sell land. What the ministry charges is barely a fee on survey diagrams, maps and beacons. When people get land surveyed and they have title deeds, the condition is that that land must be developed as soon as possible. If they do not, the ministry is at liberty to re-enter such land and give it to others.

Sir, Hon. Dr Machungwa talked about organisations such as Meanwood Property Development Limited. This is an organisation which is run by Zambians. We have allowed investors to come in this country and invest. What we insist on is that they must bring tangible investment. When land is given to an investor, there must be a service that should be delivered to the site. The ministry will not condone anybody who just clears a piece of land.  

Mr Chairperson, what we must also take note of is that Zambians themselves, when they are given land, are in the forefront of giving it to other people who have not been directly interviewed. For example, opposite Parliament Motel, if you look at the titles of the buildings or the properties that are there, they are in the name of Zambians, but the owners of those properties are not Zambians. Those people do not qualify to have properties in Zambia because they have not followed the proper procedure through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Zambia Development Agency (ZDA). Really, at one point or the other, we must be able to blame ourselves.

Sir, Hon. Mwansa also brought up very pertinent issues regarding land. As far as land is concerned, State land is continuously planned for. If the chiefs give consent and allow us to plan for the land, we will be able to do that. One important factor that hon. Members and the public should note is that the local authority is the planning authority. When they have planned for a piece of land, my ministry or a private surveyor will go and survey the land after numbering. 

Therefore, we work hand in hand with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing through the local authorities. This is why I have emphasized, time and again, that the Ministry of Lands has decentralised the function of land allocation because land allocation starts from the councils. Councils are being given money by the Ministry of Lands to carry out the exercise. So far, we have almost K15 billion allocated to the Land Development Fund. We are giving this money to the councils to ensure that new areas are explored so that land can be given to the Zambians. 

Sir, let me now talk about the houses that used to belong to the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) and title deeds. Title deeds are customer driven. To date, the ministry has no property that has no title deed. Whenever information is forwarded to the ministry regarding property, we ensure that title deeds are issued and released to the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines ─ Investment Holdings.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Nkombo commented on the powers of the Commissioner of Lands. There are four departments in this ministry. All of them, except for the Director of Human Resources, have delegated powers from this House under an Act of Parliament, through the President. This, however, does not mean that the three officials, who are the Surveyor-General, the Commissioner of Lands and the Chief Registrar of Lands and Deeds, have more powers than the Permanent Secretary. They all report to the Permanent Secretary. Therefore, it must be noted and emphasised that the Commissioner of Lands is not above the hon. Minister nor is he above the Permanent Secretary. I thought that I should categorically emphasise this point. 

Hon. Sakwiba Sikota raised a point that cadres have, with impunity, developed some pieces of land. You prick me when you start mentioning parties. I have a document with me which shows that one councilor allocated himself sixteen plots and one other hon. Member of Parliament gave his drivers three plots. I have proof to this effect. 

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Daka: We have reported this to the law enforcement officers to ensure that these people are brought to book. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Hon. Sakwiba Sikota asked what the ministry is doing about such cases. The law has no colour, party or cadre. So, it visits everybody who breaks it. 

Mr Kambwili: Nabasuba Ambi bonse? 

Laughter 

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, derogatory remarks from Hon. Lubinda, I beg your pardon, Hon. Kambwili, who is a scrap metal dealer, …

Laughter

Mr Daka: … and was lifting railway lines between Ndola and Kapiri Mposhi, will not help us. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, please, leave Hon. Lubinda out of your debate and concentrate on the Vote.

You may continue, please.

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, I apologise for mentioning Hon. Lubinda’s name. However, I still insist that the other hon. Member should not make derogatory remarks if he wants peace. 

Mr Kambwili interjected.
 
Mr Daka: Today, he is insulting the Chinese, and yet he gets orders from Chambishi Metals. How credible is such a person, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, get on with your policy debate. 

Mr Kambwili: Nonsense!

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection. If that man is going to insult me like this, I will not …

Mr Kambwili: Do not insult too!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili, can you leave the House for two days. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You should not come into the House for two days. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: No problem!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There has to be order in the House. We cannot allow lawlessness. 

Mr Kambwili: I will wait for you outside! 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: This is absolutely unacceptable. I cannot allow this. 

Hon. Opposition Member: But this is what they want. 

The Deputy Chairperson: You cannot say this is what they want. When I am talking, you are also doing the same. That is indiscipline. 

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, the law has no boundaries. Whoever breaks it will be answerable. The Ministry of Home Affairs has been informed. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing, which is a planning authority under the councils, has to make sure that all councils that do not follow the proper planning of land in their jurisdiction are suspended and dealt with. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I would like to congratulate all the speakers who supported this Vote. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We now move to individual items under this Head. However, before we do so, let me reiterate that, I think, that we should not be pushed too far. You have put us here to guide the House. It is very easy for me to leave. I do not want to be tested. You either allow me to do my job or ask me to leave, but there has to be discipline in the House. I cannot preside over this House as if I am dealing with children. 

Vote 85/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 65 ─ (Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training ─ K111,494,205,547).

The Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to present my policy statement in support of the Vote for my ministry.  

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Science and Technology oversees two sectors, namely science and technology …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: I can not allow a point of order when the hon. Minister has just started debating, unless it is procedural. 

Mr D. Mwila: It is, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: You have your point of order. 

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. {mospagebreak}

Sir, I have observed that Hon. Sinyinda, who is the hon. Deputy Minister of Education and Hon. Mulyata, who is the hon. Minister of the North-Western Province, are just going round as though they do not have seats. Is the Leader of Government Business in order not to inform this House whether the two hon. Members are still hon. Ministers or not.  I need your serious ruling. 

The Deputy Chairperson: That is the kind of point of order that I think we could really do without. We have to proceed. We really must make progress. I cannot rule on that point of order. 

The hon. Minister may continue. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Science and Technology oversees two sectors, namely science and technology and the Technical Education Vocation and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET). The two sectors contribute to wealth creation and human resource development for the country. The ministry facilitates, coordinates and promotes the development and application of science and technology and the provision of technical education, vocation and entrepreneurship skills. 

Mr Chairperson,  this year, my ministry was allocated K120 billion and out of this amount, K85.27 billion was allocated to the Technical Education and Vocational Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET) and K34.9 billion was allocated to Science and Technology programmes.

Mr Chairperson, in TEVET, the ministry continued to dedicate its resources to infrastructure development for the construction of new facilities and rehabilitation of existing facilities. The works included rehabilitation of classroom blocks, administration blocks, hostels and the construction of new infrastructure at Solwezi, Chipata, Mongu, Kaoma and Ukwimi Trades Training Institutes. The rehabilitation works are under way at Choma and Kasiya colleges. 

In addressing the concerns on quality in the delivery of training and refocusing our institutions to their core mandates, the ministry, this year, began implementation of the TEVET Financing Strategy. The strategy entailed linking the funding of institutions to the number of students it can train in the priority skill areas. This strategy is designed to ensure that Government finances skills which are critical for development.

In terms of improving access to skills training, this year, we have been able to support 1,380 students through our Bursary Scheme. In order to improve the quality of training delivery, training programmes were also being implemented for lecturers as part of the skills upgrading programme for instructors. The ministry has also made significant investments into equipment, furniture and books for its institutions as a way of improving the learning environment.

Under the TEVET Graduate Empowerment Scheme, all the tools that we procured have now been moved to the institutions and implementation has begun so as to empower the young gradates. We are closely monitoring implementation of this programme so as to ensure that it succeeds.

Mr Chairperson, in science and technology, the major focus was to improve the operations and sustainability of scientific institutions through improved financing for programmes and stricter budget control. This was supported with programmes to review and revise the Science and Technology Policy of 1996 and strengthening and improving implementation of the Youth Investors Fund and the Strategic Research Fund.

The ministry increased grants to the institutions from K14. 6 billion in 2008 to K24.7 billion in 2009. This measure facilitated improved operations in the institutions and delivery on their mandate.

The ministry continued to implement that Strategic Research Fund and the Youth Investors Fund. The Strategic Research Fund has been supporting projects in agricultural productivity, HIV/AIDS food supplements and alternative energy while the Youth Investors Fund has been supporting projects from our youth such as specially designed water pump, food processing equipment and diagnostic tools. Although there have been some progress on these projects, the overall impact of these interventions remains a concern for my ministry. The concerns include delays in implementing the various phases of the projects and weaknesses in monitoring and evaluation of the projects. Another major concern has been the quality of projects and the need to ensure that national priority is the basis on which we select research and development projects to receive financing. To address these concerns, the guidelines for the two funds were reviewed and revised.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Namulambe: An important aspect of investments in science and technology is the need for research and development outputs to reach industry or the community. To complete the research and development cycle, we need to be able to commercialise those outputs that are beneficial to the targeted users. However, the commercialisation of technologies remained a challenge.

 In the 2009 budget statement for my ministry, this House was informed that we had shelved plans to establish a Venture Capital Fund (VCF) as the economic environment was not appropriate to support a fully-fledged Venture Capital Fund. We had instead opted to introduce a technology Business Development Fund (BDF) which would encourage business that adopted local technologies for commercialisation. It is expected that this fund will be fully operational in 2010 as guidelines and the necessary institutional framework is put in place. The ministry has continued to support the female students in the science and technology field to pursue their Master’s degree programmes in order to enhance the capacity of scientists in the country. This is also a way of promoting females to take up scientific and technological courses.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has developed a new strategic plan to guide its programmes in the period 2010 to 2014. The programmes and activities for 2010 and the Medium Term Expenditure Framework have, therefore, been linked to the new strategic plan.

In the 2010  Budget, 53 per cent of the K111.4 billion allocated to the ministry has been allocated to capital projects and other poverty reduction programmes such as the Bursary Scheme and the Strategic Research Fund while 35 per cent of the budget will be channeled to the operations for the various implementing agencies of the ministry such as the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR), the National Science and Technology Council, the National Technology Business Centre, TEVET and various training institutions across the country. 

Mr Chairperson, in TEVET, the priority will be to continue with and complete the current construction and rehabilitation works initiated in 2008/2009. This involves the completion of construction and rehabilitation works. In line with our strategic plan, the ministry will also start expanding the number of trades training institutes by constructing new institutions in Isoka, Milenge and Kalabo.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: This is the commencement of our programme on establishing a trades training institute (TTI) in each district of this country. The ministry will also increase its investments in the procurement of workshop and other teaching equipment and materials so as to equip the institutions where new infrastructure has been put up. K29.4 has been allocated to these programmes.

The implementation of the TEVET Financing Strategy will also be strengthened by drawing on lessons learnt in the first year of implementation. To this effect, the number of institutions in the pilot will be expanded to include Lusaka Business and Technical College and Kabwe Trades Training Institute. K13.54 billion will be spent on this programme.

Mr Chairperson, one area of concern is that of the poor conditions of service in trades training institutes. One of the intentions of the Government in establishing management boards was to give them autonomy to provide conditions of service that were competitive, but this has not materialised. Most of our institutions, especially the rural-based institutions continue to struggle with retaining qualified lecturers and, in some cases, failing to even recruit lecturers. The Government is seeking ways to address this serious concern and the options include restoring the lecturers in these training institutions to the Government payroll. We are still consulting on this one.

Mr Chairperson, our priorities in the TEVET sector will include strengthening open and distance learning (ODL) through the development of policy guidelines to expand the number of institutions offering ODL programmes so as to increase access, induction of management boards and performance reviews aimed at strengthening management systems and processes in institutions. K14.5 billion has been allocated to the operations of institutions in TEVET and other management strengthening activities while K1.25 billion will be spent on various programmes to upgrade lecturing staff.

The ministry is going to finalise the TEVET Policy and it is expected that the TEVET Act will be amended in order to align to it to the revised policy.

Mr Chairperson, in science and technology, the review and revision of the Science and Technology Act and commencing implementation of critical strategies in the revised science, technology and innovation policy will be the key priority. I hope to bring to this House a Bill to repeal the Science and Technology Act of 1996.

The Strategic Research Fund and the Youth Inventors Fund will be essential in facilitating investments in research and development. The ministry has strengthened, expanded, reorganised and rationalised the funds to target only national priorities and emergencies. These funds will also be used to finance joint research with our international partners in line with our national priorities. Key targets will be projects in agriculture, especially animal productivity and health. K1.6 billion has been allocated to these programmes.

The ministry will continue to focus on upgrading research facilities to ensure that they are modernised and meet international standards and also ensure international accreditation of the laboratories. K2.1 billion has been allocated to infrastructure and equipment for research institutions. 

Outstanding personal emoluments and statutory obligations have continued to be a critical problem in the ministry. Despite interventions to address the debt in 2008 and 2009 the outstanding debts have remained high. The dismantling of debt in scientific institutions will, therefore, remain a priority. K2 billion has been set aside for this programme. Scientific institutions will receive K24.58 billion for their operations and programmes.

Mr Chairperson, in winding up my statement, let me state that the National Budget was well presented and gives a very clear direction of what the Government intends to achieve in the medium term and I am confident that the MMD Government, of which I am a proud member, will deliver on its promises to the people.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this important vote.
Sir, as much as I would like to support this vote, I will do so with reservations because I understand the way our country has allocated only K11 billion to this important ministry, is undermining ourselves and not knowing exactly what we want to achieve in the nation.

Mr Chairperson, it is common knowledge that, as a nation, we have come to a standstill where we are unable to address our economic evils and we are unable to achieve anything.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is a critical component in our national development agenda to ensure that our country is not a copyright. I think we have become a copyright country. We are now copying everything from the outside countries and we are unable to develop our own agenda.

Sir, to attribute K2 billion to research and planning, I find it very difficult to understand how that will be achieved. This is a very important ministry in this nation. The hon. Minister in charge must take full responsibility for turning graduates into beggars. This is because when his ministry trains these people that go to technical colleges, it is his responsibility to ensure and understand that what we are attempting to do is in cognisance with what is obtainable within the economy. How many graduates are we able to absorb within our economy? It is a nice thing to train but it is also a nice thing to have an oversight view as to how we will absorb them into our industry.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia as it stands today, is begging for development and no one can dispute that fact. All of us, regardless of which political party we belong to, are interested in the people’s welfare. Hence, whatever little resources we have in this nation must be ploughed into training skills and ensure that that money is not wasted. Otherwise, we are going round and round as a country. What is the use of training people and then there is no mechanism provided by the Executive to ensure that these people are also absorbed and assisted? It means we must not even look at training them. At the end of the day, we get them out into the streets. Is this the objective?

First of all, we must begin to look at the objectives and begin to define them. What is the objective of training someone? The sooner we come to grips with what the objective of training someone is, I think, the better.

Sir, I do understand that because of privatisation, the private sector has now crept into our economy, which is true and I agree. As a Government, what sort of training or mechanism do we have, now, to prepare these graduates so that if they do not find any job, they are able to pick on something to rely on? I want to ask the Executive what policy mechanism they have put in place to ensure that those of our children that graduate are not left hanging.

First of all, you must understand. What is their faculty position in terms of adapting to what they will become? We must understand that. What has been our education system in this nation? The education system has been designed in such a way that when you graduate, you have a job. That is what every graduate believes in. However, that is not the reality today.

Mr Chairperson, I implore the hon. Minister in charge of this ministry to ensure that we begin to prepare that labour that is just being wasted on the streets and to ensure that that labour does also contribute to our GDP. How do we do that?

Firstly, you must revise your curriculum. We must come up with a policy of entrepreneurship skills in our education system so that even when they are being trained, they begin to understand that they can either be employed or not. They must also understand that there is an Executive that shall put in executive policies to ensure that they are also absorbed into meaningful developmental issues. This is key for this nation. I am crying on behalf of the people of Kwacha Constituency.

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the man who is debating now and doing so very well, in …

Mr Malama: Honourable!

Mr Mbulakulima: … order to mislead the nation and the House that this Government has allocated only K11 billion to this important ministry when, in actual fact, the amount allocated is K111 billion. Is he in order to debate in such a manner and mislead the House and the nation at large?

The Deputy Chairperson: You have adequately debated your point of order, hon. Minister.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, that hon. Minister has also made mistakes in his figures when he has debated.

Mr Chairperson, the point I was making is that K111 billion is inadequate for this important ministry and I would like him to understand that science and technology is the engine of this nation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: If we are here to make points of order for the sake of it, we will not see this nation going forward. We need to accept what is correct. What is correct is that we have mismanaged our nation. We need to understand that we have a huge responsibility to make this nation grow. We have to ensure that this nation grows and science and technology is a key ministry which must be enhanced to perform its full function. I wish the hon. Minister …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not make the point of order the basis of your debate. I urge the hon. Member to go forward.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the point I want to make, and which I passionately believe in, is that science and technology is the answer to the ills of this nation. For as long as we gloss over it, and we have hon. Ministers who also do not understand the importance of this ministry, this nation leaves much to be desired.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia, as it stands, today, is begging for development and the engine of that is science and technology.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: We have glossed over this issue for a very long time and I will not, for as long as I sit in this House, allow the Executive to gloss over science and technology because I believe, from the bottom of my heart, that it is the engine of this nation’s success.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You seem to be harping on one point. The point you have made has been understood. Unless you have another point to make, I would request you to wind up your debate.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, it is not that I want to deliver one point, but it is the way I feel for the young people whom we send into these training schools when we cannot provide answers for them. That is my heartfelt disappointment.

Mr Chairperson, I will digress a bit from what I have been talking about to discuss what labour and capital means to this nation. In this nation, we do not believe that capital comprises land, labour and cash. We have forgotten those basic principles. We have land and labour, but do not have cash. However, we have land which we can utilise to improve ourselves in terms of security. 

Mr Chairperson, in this nation, labour is languishing in the streets without being utilised. The labour that is produced by the Ministry of Science and Technology is not being utilised. We are not utilising land and the availability of cash in the nation in terms of financing, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: … but we say we are a poor nation and… 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: … we also have these leaders saying Sata is available …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Why do you fail to follow orders? Do you think we are here to be swayed anyhow? That is the end of your debate and when we come back, I will call upon another hon. Member.

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in
 the Chair]

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the Vote, but would also like to say that the ministry requires more money than what is being given today. My colleague, the hon. Member for Kwacha East, in his debate, said that this ministry is key to the development of this country. Despite that, we still down play its importance to the economic development of our country.

Mr Chairperson, the world over, economies are spending billions of dollars on science and technology. The ministry is in charge of the NISIR, a very important institution in research and development in our country, but it is saddening to note that the research that comes out there just gathers dust because there is no money to develop what these men and women at NISIR do.

Mr Chairperson, as a country, we need to move forward and begin to understand that for Zambia to develop, we need to invest in science and technology. That brings me to the point on how schools in this country are doing when it comes to Information Communication Technology (ICT). I do not understand why we cannot put money into colleges so that they become fully equipped so that the students are able to come out of those institutions with the knowledge of computers. Unless we do that, some of the things that we need to do in this country will not be fulfilled.

Mr Chairperson, some countries within the region have spent billions of dollars to develop what we are now trying to do, the optic fibre. This is being undertaken by the Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL) and Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) although I do not understand why two companies should begin to develop one thing which can be undertaken by only one company.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to ensure that our colleges have fully-fledged computer laboratories. When that is done, we will be able to have students graduating from these colleges with knowledge. Today, the system has changed because even architects are using computers to design whatever they are doing. It is important that those coming out of these colleges are given the know-how. 

Mr Chairperson, we also need to expand some of the institutions that we have, today, and that is why it is vital that this ministry is given more money than what is being allocated today. When we do that, we will have more students going into colleges. 

Today, how many of our boys and girls who leave school are able to get into these institutions? They are not many because these institutions cannot cater for many of them. So, it is important that the Government, henceforth, begins to put more money into this ministry in order to help us, as a country, absorb those school leavers into these colleges. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to talk about our technical education and vocational teachers college in Luanshya. That institution is very important, but is being under funded, and yet we need more instructors to teach in some of these colleges. Unfortunately, some of the colleges do not even have instructors or lecturers to teach the students. This is as a result of the institutions that are supposed to train them lacking the requirements they need to do so. So, hon. Minister, you should ensure that the technical education and vocational training college in Luanshya is equipped with what is needed so that more instructors can be from trained there.

Finally, Mr Chairperson, I just want to welcome the new Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, Mrs Thole, and I hope that she will add more value to this ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Daka): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important ministry. It is important in the sense that when you go out of this building, today, you will find bricklayers that have come from this ministry through various institutions which are Government and privately owned. The most important thing, today, that we should agree with is that even the private sector has gone out of its way to augment the efforts of the Government in ensuring that the colleges that exist under the private sector number more than those owned by the Government. 

Mr Chairperson, today, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training has twenty-four colleges, but there are over 240 colleges in Zambia. However, all of them have an affiliation to Ministry of Science, Technology and TEVET. 

Mr Chairperson, it is very pleasing to note that TEVET has acted as an umbilical cord to ensure that the education that is given through these institutions is regulated. It is important to note that there is a framework which is being designed to ensure that there is a connection between the Ministry of Education and Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training as this will ensure that there is progression for people that have come through these technical colleges to pursue degree courses into the universities of Zambia, regardless of the field they are in.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, it is pleasing to note that the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocation Training has a policy which is called zero entropy. Zero entropy means that even when you drop at Grade 7 level, there is a trade that you can pick from the Lusaka Trades and …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: … there is a carrier that you can pick up from Luanshya Trades. This is the way it should be. We do realise that at one point or the other when one is born or starts Grade 1, they do not know where they are going until when they fail or get poor results in Grade 7, Form V or Form III. That is the point where they rethink and question why they did not work very hard from the beginning. Thus, the foundation is very important with Ministry of Education. 

Quantitative subjects, which are mathematics and sciences, are very important, but today, we find that children are not interested in those subjects because they are lazy, they do not want to work very hard or the parents do not want to supervise their homework. However, there is a second port. You can be reborn or re-educated through these institutions by starting afresh. 

Mr Chairperson, if you look at countries like Singapore, India and China, at one point or the other, they were not better off than where we, as a country are, and they did not have the minerals that Zambia has today. However, if one looks at their industrial, technical and scientific achievements, they will realise that this was achieved because people invested in science, technology and vocational training. Vocational training is very important because, as I stated much earlier, the bricklayer that we see outside has studied seat and gilds or a craft certificate in one of these colleges.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that the carpenter that we are seeing, today, the floor tiler that we see in our houses or in our projects that we do every day has come through these colleges. 

Today, 93 per cent of the people that work in the mines have passed through a technical or vocational college in way or the other. It is important that this ministry be given the support it deserves in this country. We cannot industrialise or become economically independent when we do not have technical staff to ensure that there is technical and technology transfer.  The Government is asking investors to come and invest in Zambia, but we do not want them to bring the man power from their countries. We want them to bring technology transfer so that we ensure that what they bring in is investment. Therefore, we want them to bring to this country the technology that exists in their countries, but use the raw materials that are available in Zambia today. 

Mr Chairperson, if one went to Ndola, today, they would find a college that is specialised in polishing gemstones. That falls under the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and as if that is not enough, the ministry is in all the provinces of Zambia. It is interesting to note that very soon, with the support of this House and the Government, the ministry will endeavour to make sure that it is in every district.

Mr Chairperson, I believe that this ministry is the hub and centre of development in this country and it should be given the support it deserves. Even when you go to NISIR, today, you will find that there are several projects that have not been commercialised. However, these projects can help us.  For instance, the windmill technology can be very useful because it does not need power, but wind to get water from the underground. 

Mr Chairperson, today, when you talk about elephants getting into people’s villages, through NISIR, we have discovered that chilli will stop the elephants from coming into your village. 

Mr Chairperson, through a research that has been carried by NISIR, it has been discovered that the Molinga tree can help us treat the water that we drink today. So, this ministry is important and it is a centre of all the activities, be it agriculture or medical, this ministry is the answer to all our problems. The people who have not found jobs anywhere can employ themselves when they pass through these colleges.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to leave time for others to debate and thank you for giving me this opportunity and I support this Vote.

Dr Chishya (Pambashe): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me this opportunity to serve words on science and technology in the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. 

Mr Chairperson, as we heard from the policy statement, this ministry has two major departments, the vocational training and the science and technology. I will try to look only on one side and that is the science and technology.

Mr Chairperson, as we all know, science and technology is an area that is highly specialised. Therefore, it means that people involved in this area must have special skills training and high scientific and technical acumen. I fully support this ministry’s budget and the hon. Minister’s policy statement and as we heard, the first Act we had in 1967 dealt with the development of scientific research to support the developmental policies of the country. However, between 1996 and 1997, that Act was repealed and replaced with another Science and Technology Act which dealt mainly with institutional arrangements. 

We have now heard that this is being revised with a view to replacing it with yet another Act. I hope it will contain some policy directions in terms of research and development (R and D). We all know that the vision of this country is to become a middle income country by 2030. Hence, the role of science and technology becomes indispensable. When people talk about developed countries and less developed countries, what they compare is the difference in science and technology.

Mr Chairperson, in the budget of this ministry, we have seen an increase in the allocation of money for R and D activities or science and technology in general. Nonetheless, there is one thing which I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister. In most research institutions, including the NISIR, the personnel are somehow skeleton structures, if at all some are there, the qualifications of the staff are really not much to talk about in terms of research and development activities. 

Let me clear the notion that anybody with a first degree or bachelor of science degree can carry out reasonable research without any supervision or being directed by somebody with experience in this area. This is especially common in the management of ministries or the Civil Service. The standard at the University of Zambia (UNZA) is that anybody with a first degree is a senior technician and not a researcher. Some time back, NISIR, which is under this ministry, was on a par with UNZA and that consideration was taken when carrying out recruitment. However, in this ministry now, there are instances where people with first degrees are appointed senior researchers and so forth. 

Mr Chairperson, I am not belittling the people with first degrees. We have seen some people with such low degrees involved in research activities and due to scientific ethics, they are acknowledged as founders or first observers of some scientific phenomenon. There are records to show that people in that category have been attributed to having performed some very important research work. 

However, those people work under the supervision of those who are experienced. What we are getting now is that people who have been doing research work with probably Phd qualifications are being replaced with somebody with a first degree and, to me, this does not make sense at all. People with first degrees have probably never even carried out R and D work before and are doing it for the first time. The skills with hands and those who require the brain are very different in philosophical approach when it comes to science, especially regarding research and development work.  

Mr Chairperson, on this very issue, I would like to commend the hon. Minister. I have interacted with him on several occasions and his approach is supported by every person involved in science and technology in this country. On the one hand, I would like to remind him that he should not relent in bringing all the scientific people we have in Zambia. They are quite few and therefore, can easily be brought together. Let them bring out what they can do for this country and not what this country can do for them. That kind of approach can take this country forward in the area of science and technology.

Mr Chairperson, the research structure at NISIR now seems to be in a hotchpotch and cannot really deliver goods and services which people are expecting because we take it that the technical support to research and development can be done by technicians, which is a wrong and misleading conception. For example, some time back at NISIR, there was a scientific approach on the beneficiation of the uranium from the Gwembe Valley upto yellow cake or uranium oxide. That kind of research was carried out by the scientific personnel just at this institution and the technical support also came from this institution. 

Just to inform the hon. Minister of Lands, who has just been debating on the importation of technology for adaptation in this country, we refused to import any kind of technology on the first processing of uranium ore up to the yellow cake and used the technical personnel we had to come up with the technical know-how for processing uranium including designing the equipment or plant which, at present, is lying idle and corrugated at this institution. At the same time, this institution had gone into nuclear techniques for peaceful application in the area of food and medicine and the personnel in this area at that institution, as we are talking, is not available. Even the technical support is not there and very expensive equipment is just there lying idle.

There are no qualified personnel to use it. Therefore, I would like to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister to look into this area so that recruitment is not discontinued. It should be an on-going process, and as far as Zambia lives, recruitment in this area should always continue. The lack of personnel has come about as a result of retirement and a break in improvement.

Sir, all we need in this ministry is the support by giving it more resources. Let us stop relying on foreign technology. We have enough indigenous technologies which we can improve and we can compete with other technologies, especially around the region or across the seas in other countries of the developed world. If we do that, our products will be very competitive.

With these few words, Sir, I thank you.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the budget for this very important ministry on a day when the ministry has a new Permanent Secretary. I want to welcome her back to the Public Service because I know that she was in one of the other public institutions for some time.

Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the ministry led by a very young Minister with quite a lot of energy. I know where he came from and I presume he has some futuristic vision of the role of his ministry. Obviously speaking after Dr Chishya, the inventor of Maheu, I will be a layman.

However, let me remind my good hon. Member of Parliament that after he invented Maheu, a foreign company started producing it using foreign equipment to an extent that a gentleman in Kalingalinga could not manufacture Maheu because the equipment was too sophisticated. The next thing that has happened regrettably was that the patent for Maheu has been bought by Zambian Breweries, a foreign company. Here is a Zambian inventor who invented the Maheu brand which I hear is very popular with most of our people. It is now manufactured by foreign equipment and is now being owned by a foreigner. Tomorrow, we will hear that Maheu is being produced in South Africa and we will lose all the knowledge that Dr Chishya applied in this invention.

On this basis, I want to digress a little bit from the Minister of Lands that we should not continue putting our future in technology transfer. We should instead put our future in technology transformation. The future of this country is invention and many inventions are already there. What we require now is to transform the inventions that are available in the world to be appropriate to our development for the future. To me, this is extremely important because that will be an easier way of moving forward and moving as quickly as possible. Transformation is not only in the area that we are discussion and I want to state that we have to transform our management systems as well.

I referred to the Minister of Lands because I had no opportunity to deliberate on his ministry. We need transformation on the way we manage land. In this regard, we need transformation on the way we treat inventions that have been around us for many years. 

The evolutions and revolutions in terms of development all over the world, if you take Japan for instance, you will find that it was not until Japan transformed the western world equipment to process cotton that Japan’s industralisation came about. I have read a lot on that. 

Mr Chairperson, if we are able to acquire equipment for that poor cotton grower in the Luangwa Valley to enable him put it to a semi processed condition before selling it to this foreign company, it will add value to our people as they will earn more money. Therefore, I believe that the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training has a very important role to take this country forward.

Mr Chairperson, we, therefore, need to have geniuses who can think and I want again, to differ with Hon. Dr Chishya in that to be a genius, it does not mean that one has to be a graduate. We have geniuses in the villages, so we need to identify them. The gentleman who is producing electricity by transforming tractor engines for the villages in the Northern Province is not an UNZA graduate. He does not even posses a first degree. He is a genius, an inventor and a transformer. He transformed what was a tractor equipment which now he uses to put in the water, water which is natural and is not imported to manufacture electricity. Production of electricity whether made from water or Jatropha is still energy and that is what our scientists should be looking for.

A few weeks ago, we had a Seventh Science and Technology fair, just here at Mulungushi Conference Centre. Sir, if I may ask these hon. Members: How many of us went to see this exhibition at Mulungushi Conference Centre? Young people were trying to tell us that, in fact, we can get gas from dung and when I went there, I was amazed that in this modern age, we still do not know that dung produces energy. I asked these young people, “Did you not know this?” The next question they said was that “we did not know, we are just trying to do an experiment now”. 

 I then asked them whether they have gone to the internet to search on this subject and they said that they had not done that. If we are not going to adopt the internet as a way of learning and continue believe that, taking these graduates and educated people …

Ms Cifire: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Just to remind hon. Members, when you want to raise a point of order, do the right thing. I ignored that point of order at first because she was raising a point of order while seated, which is not the rule. 

Ms Cifire: Mr Chairperson, I am wondering whether Hon. Magande is in order to continue debating and acknowledging the fact that Maheu is new when where he comes from, this is Chibwantu, is he in order, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Magande, take that point of order into account as you debate.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I want to state that the name is different and the composition as you will learn from Dr Chishya is different from Chibwantu. Unfortunately, my ancestors have been taking this beverage called Chibwantu made from roots and none of the scientists has tried to domesticate the roots so that I do not have to go into the snake infested forests looking for munkoyo (plant). 

What scientists should be doing is to make things easier for me instead of going round looking for the Munkoyo tree until am bitten by a snake. This is what Dr Chishya did. He got rid of the root part by coming up with a scientific formula.

Mr Chairperson, during the Seventh Science and Technology Exhibition Fair, it was amazing to see that most of the things the young people exhibited were things done 200 years ago. However, due to lack of coded information and specialised places of location where we can find this information, the wheel is still being reinvented. It cannot happen that way. 

Sir, at one time, I was talking to somebody about the European Union developing out of the coal and steel industries. There were only three countries that started the European Union. They first started processing coal and steel. The processing of steel using coal then revolutionalised Europe. I want, therefore, to plead with the young hon. Minister and his new Permanent Secretary to look afresh. Instead of getting these young people to conduct experiments in everything, let us pick a few sectors and concentrate on them. 

I would like to see a situation where on the Copperbelt, for instance, effort not only in science and technology but also in technical is addressed to the mining sector. For example, young people in Grade 7 must know what a fair is. Many of us, including those from the Copperbelt Province, do not know, but I am sure my good engineer, Hon. Mukanga, knows what this means. He learnt it at the university when he should have learnt this in Grades 2, 7 or 12 and if he dropped out of school in any of the grades, he was going to be a technician at that level. 

The hon. Member for Pambashe, Dr Chishya, talked about uranium. I want to assure you that there are very rich deposits of uranium in Munyumbwe. Most of the people there fail to drink the water from the springs because it has a very nasty taste. No one has told them that there is uranium in the springs. This is the role of science and technology. Science is not just going to the moon, into cyber space or internet, but creating things that our people can use.

Finally, I want to remind the hon. Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, Ms Cifire, that Nshima is still cooked the same way my great great grandmother cooked it 2,000 years ago. If you went to institutions such as hospitals, you will find imported pots from overseas, but if you went to the villages, you will still find a stick used to cook nshima. That is not development if you import pots. Our people must be in reality and seek new ways of cooking nshima. That is the appropriateness of science and technology. 

While K111 billion has been provided to this ministry, we must focus on what we want to do so that science and technology can be used to transform this country to the 22nd Century.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to join other hon. Members who have highly commended the hon. Minister and his professionals for trying to transform the ministry into an effective tool to develop our country socially and economically.

I must admit that I have always admired the performance of the current hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. When he was Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, he initiated a lot of policies and initiatives which even allowed street children to understand their role in our society. He transformed them in collaboration with other institutions. He transformed the minds of our young people who are roaming the streets into useful citizens. I admire him for this and I have no doubt that he is going to assist this country in transforming the ministry into one of the most effective ministries that will enable Zambia transform its economy in a manner that will be appreciated by all of us.

As you are aware, Mr Chairperson, my commendation of the ministry through the hon. Minister cannot be complete if, for example, I do not acknowledge the competence of the managers managing this ministry and all other institutions which fall under the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. There are men and women of integrity. We have scientists and technologists who have demonstrated to us that they are high performers. 

In the light of this, as my other hon. Colleagues have already said, we only need to support these men and women financially for us to move away from being an import oriented country so that we can begin to export our technology. We will be able to save a lot of money because a country that is always importing, as you are aware, its technology will definitely end up digging deeper into the country’s resources and we cannot allow such a situation. We would like to make sure that we become 100 per cent dependent on our own science and technology. 

Why are China and Dubai great nations today? There are so many advertisements today about trips to Dubai and so on and so forth, why. This is because these countries used science and technology to transform their countries into what they are today and Zambia can do this. It is a question of empowering our professionals sufficiently. Give them the tools that they are looking for, they have the ability and competence to perform wonders for this country and our trips to Dubai will be history because we would have transformed Zambia into another Dubai. Countries that have become self-sufficient in food production have relied on science and technology. We talk about irrigation and other activities in order to become self-sufficient in food production, but we can use science and technology in doing the same.

China, today, which has a very big population, has been able to combat poverty. There is no starvation in China today and luckily enough, most of us have gone to China. The moment you are invited for dinner, you will be served with a lot of different meals. Why? This is because they are self-sufficient in food production and have realised the importance of science and technology.

We can also do the same. My colleague talked about the Ministry of Health. Currently, the equipment that is used in the Ministry of Health is imported. It costs our country a lot of money to continue the importation of equipment for our clinics and hospitals from foreign sources. 

I am sure we could save a lot of money if we minimised on imported equipment. The amount of money used to import technology can be used for other programmes that we have initiated. It is important that the hon. Minister and his professionals are empowered financially so that they are be able to make use of the tools that are available to transform our country into an export-oriented one. Countries such as Singapore and Malaysia started like trade centres. Today, if you went to Malaysia and Singapore, you would find that they no longer import any technology, but export. We can also do the same.

In a nutshell, I would like to say that we should try and elevate the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training to a level where it will be sufficiently funded. That way, we will able to challenge our scientists on the basis that we have given them the tools that they have been looking for and should, therefore, use the same tools to transform our economy into one of the most admired. They can do that because they have the ability, knowledge and are men and women of integrity. Sir, let us continue to support this ministry. 

Mr Chairperson, I have no doubt that the hon. Minister, who is more focused, together with his professionals and the new Permanent Secretary, who has an immense background in business, will be able to use the same business concepts to transform this ministry. They should transform it into one of the most important ministries which will enable us move away from being an importing nation to an exporting one. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Mabenga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this vote. 

Sir, as you can see, the Ministry of Lands supports the vote to the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training as evidenced by the fact that both the hon. Minister of Lands and I, his deputy, have stood to speak on the same.

The Chairperson: Order! 

You do not speak because you are both from the Ministry of Lands. It is just your opportunity to speak.

You may continue, please.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I also want to join many of the voices that have spoken in welcoming and congratulating the Permanent Secretary who has been appointed to that ministry.

Mr Chairperson, it is clear from the debate before me from a good number of colleagues that this Government is promoting science and technology. In particular, Hon. Magande gave an example of the science fair that took place at the Mulungushi International Conference Centre which is promoting skills in young people. It is ensuring that young people use their talent to further their livelihood. This, therefore, goes to explain that TEVET is playing a pivotal role in ensuring that skills are imparted in our young people. 

Sir, I know that one of the other things that is encouraged in the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is research. Research is a very important skill because a person can leave school, but can conduct good research and get the best out of it. A good example is what we heard with regard to our brother, Hon. Dr Chishya, the Member of Parliament for Pambashe. 

I also want to thank the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, and TEVET in particular, for allowing Zambian people to operate private learning institutions. This is very important and it is gratifying to note that a good number of the private institutions are doing very well under the supervision of TEVET. 

Sir, I also note that TEVET always looks to uphold standards and this is what is expected of a responsible ministry in a responsible Government in order to ensure that what is given to people in this country really serves its purpose. 

Mr Chairperson, I have observed in our homes these days that our young people seem to be more technologically aware than older people. For example, when you want to tune your television set to a particular channel, your young child is able do it quicker than you the old woman or man and all you do is sit and watch. Similarly, when you fidget around with your phone and do not know what has happened to it, the younger person will quickly get to that and put it to good use. This is progress. These are the results of the good efforts and policies that this Government is imparting knowledge in young people so that they are not left behind.

Mr Speaker, in the North-Western Province of Zambia, the Luvale people have a saying that goes “Chindende Chindende Chizunda akwachile mbambi.” When translated, this means “slowly, slowly, a frog caught up with a duiker.” You know that the duiker is a very fast animal compared to a frog. However, slowly, but surely, the frog was able to catch up with this fast animal. So it is true with Zambia that we are developing slowly in this field and shall one day become another Dubai.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: That is a fact. It is important that as hon. Members of Parliament, we also encourage our young people to be active. Let us encourage them to get involved in science and technology. We have a number of school dropouts in our various constituencies. How many of us have taken a keen interest in finding out how these young people can be salvaged out of the poverty or the problems they are in? Maybe few of us have. 

Sir, this is an opportunity for us to make a difference. If some young people cannot go into science and technology, they can go into various skills training ventures. It is important that we take a keen interest in this matter because after all, this country belongs to all of us and is ours to develop. We need to get involved to make this happen.
 
Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I support the vote for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and encourage my colleagues to do so too.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to this vote.

In the first place, allow me to congratulate our colleague from Solwezi Central for graciously accepting to be become hon. Member of Parliament for Central Province. I know that he might be thinking that he has come to a place where there is a lot of bitterness, but I would like to assure him that this is a dignified House.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Hon. Syakalima. Did you say the hon. Member of Parliament for Central Province?

Mr Syakalima: Sir, it was a slip of the tongue.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right, so you can correct it.

Mr Syakalima: He is from Solwezi Central.

Sir, I would like to tell him that the bitterness that he may be seeing in the House is a result of his winning the by-election, but he can see that there are people who have accepted him graciously. I can see that Professor Lungwangwa …

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: … and Hon. Dr Mwansa have accepted him. This phase will come to pass as everybody will accept reality. 

Mr Chairperson, we know each other around here. We do not really need to start having personal attacks in this House. As you know, like I sometimes say, beyond politics, there are families. I would not want to say anything about anybody which is …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, come back to the debate on the Floor.

Mr Syakalima: I do not want to say anything about anybody which is serious.

Sir, I am just borrowing Hon. Mwaanga’s words that we shall leave bitterness to lesser people.

Mr Mwaanga: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: I realise that everybody is supporting this budget allocation. I want to state that I am not supporting this budget allocation for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training because if I did so, I would be contributing to the weakening of the ministry. I would also be telling my brother that he failed and yet I am also encouraging such meager allocations.

During the 2009 Budget, I stood in this House and complained that there were budget cutbacks on science and technology, but we were assured that we would revisit this issue and normalise it. Today, they have reduced the budget allocation for 2010 from K120 billion to K111 billion again. As I have always said, never treat science and technology as if it is your backyard garden. 

Sir, science and technology are expensive ventures on their own. If you continue like this, and against the backdrop of inflation, this K111 billion could be something like K80 billion. Then you will continue hoping that the youngman could do wonders. The youngman will not be seen to be working with such budgetary cutbacks. 

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: I am just repeating how others were referring to the hon. Minister. 

Mr Chairperson, even the allocation to the Science and Technology Department is just K3.6 billion. Many of us in this House have said that countries which are developed were putting more money in science and technology. When I told somebody from another country that we have allocated K111 billion to science and technology, he said that maybe the whole country or Government is a joke. I told him that the country is normal, but the ones who have been given the powers to run the systems of governance are the ones who could be jokers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: I wonder now what is going to happen because last year, there were budget cutbacks and so is this year. 

Hon. Opposition Members: They are even worse!

Mr Syakalima: They will be even worse if we start thinking of the inflation rates. 

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: You colleagues, just listen first.

Hon. Government Members: Address the Chair!

Mr Syakalima: That is why I am facing the Chair. 

Colleagues, please, get us out of all this mess because there must be somewhere where to begin from. This is the only way, but you are busy saying China should bring the multi facility zones (MFEZs). The Chinese, first of all, invested in technology, but you just want to see a town somewhere in Chilenje and say that this is an MFEZ. Build your own MFEZ. Do not bring other people’s MFEZs here. That is why we are telling you to invest in science and technology. 

Sir, it is so frustrating to be a scientist in this country because you can not do hands on work. Being a scientist does not mean just using are not theories. How can a scientist work properly when he starts thinking about the innovation which Hon. Magande was talking about? How can we transform the economy? How can a scientist work who is in the laboratory and realises that, at home, the bag of mealie meal is at post office box level.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Can he think scientifically with that on his mind? 

Hon. Opposition Member: At post office box level!

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: We toured the Mount Makulu Research Centre in Chilanga and found that a door of a scientist’s house was nonexistent and the roof was dilapidated, but you want to make that scientist live in Zambia. You cannot succeed!

Sir, as Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs states, technological endeavours do not flourish in a society where people have to struggle for food and shelter. They cannot! There are several things that we must sort out. Poverty is one of the issues that we need to address so that a scientist can have enough food and is able to takes his children to school. How can a scientist teach other people’s children when he is unable to take his own children to school. How? You are just jokers! In fact, you are wasting our time by being in the Government.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: I can prove that this is wastage of time. This is my eighth year in the House, but I speak like this every time. If you want, go and download everything that I have said on science and technology. They have been the same for the past eight years. I have said these things to the same people except that a few faces have changed here and there. How many times I am going to talk to you like this.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! If you continue talking like that, you may invite some comments. You are supposed to say, how many times am I going to talk to them like this?

Mr Syakalima: How many times am I going to talk to them like this? I am fatigued of telling them the same things everyday.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Even a child in a home who does not listen, certain things happen to them. I hope this is my last time to talk to you like this.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, to them!

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Yes, talk to them like this.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! He is addressing the Chair.

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Syakalima: If you went to Nkruma Teacher’s Training College and Copperbelt Secondary Training College (COSTCO) which they are turning into university colleges for science, you will notice that they have no laboratories. COSTCO looks like an abandoned refugee camp, but you are talking about science and technology. Where on earth can you succeed with such a situation? Lecturers are nonexistent. 

That is why hon. Minister, you must have a synergy between the two ministries so that you as the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training becomes a supervisor for the Ministry of Education. There is too much science in the Ministry of Education. When you do not do things like that, you become something else beyond a jock. You must be able to check whether secondary schools and colleges have laboratories. When you look at all these colleges which they are now trying to elevate, it is something else. This country is looked at as if it were a prison because of this Government. This is the way this country is at the moment.  Some of you just jumped levels without reading.

Sir, this Government, in its own manifesto, said that it was going to build a University of Science and Technology in Livingstone by 2009. This university would have been finished by now, but up to now, there is neither a slab nor drawing. These are the things that will catch up with you by 2011. We cannot have a Government that treats science and technology like backyard gardens. Even if we tell you to work properly with your staff, there is nothing you are doing. When we take over in 2011, we shall correct all this mess. Mind you, we do not want to inherit things that are dilapidated. That is why you are power. You must use your brains and the money very well so that as we come to power, we wrap-up your work. Do you understand?

Sir, with those words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank all the hon. Members who have debated to support the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry. May I just respond to a few concerns.

Sir, I will begin by the concern by the hon. Member for Siavonga. It was not the Government which was going to build the University of Science and Technology in Livingstone. There was a partner who had pledged to work with Government to build that university. Land was found, but unfortunately, this partner seemed not to have had money…

Laughter

Mr Namulambe:…and I have since directed that we cannot go ahead with that partnership. However, as Government, we shall continue to encourage the private sector to come on board and partner with Government in establishing centres or universities to deal in science and technology.

Sir, I want to agree that indeed, Zambia can be self-sustaining in almost all its needs if we put much emphasis in science and technology. Going by the exhibitions that we had seen at the Mulungushi International Conference Center, Zambia indeed, has got the brains. We have got researchers and people that can invent things that will be able to help us. I have since directed the National Technology Business Centre to work with the researchers and inventers so as to come up with companies and also to transform the inventions and commercialise them. We also need to patent the products so that in the end, Zambia can be the exporter and consumer of its own products. 

Mr Chairperson, I am not a scientist, but I have got passion for science.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, year in, year out, many hon. Members of Parliament have said that there is less funding to this sector. The problem has been that for me to go and convince the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for more funding, there is need for these scientists to come with programmes that need funding for. Even within the Budget sealing, I am sure, if they gave us programmes, we can be able to fund those programmes. I think that there has also been reluctance on the part of our scientists in trying to come up with programmes that need funding. When people say that there is less funding, it is also important that they should come up with suggestions. This funding should be for what? We may have the funds, but if we do not have programmes, we will end up not utilising the funds. The funds will end up going back to the Treasury. This is not our intention. 

Sir, as a Government, our intention is to maximise the limited resources that we have as a nation. It is for this reason that we are going to work with the science institutions soon so that the 2011 Budget is going to be improved for science and technology. Indeed, as Zambia, we cannot depend on importing products. For instance, during the science exhibition that was conducted at Mulungushi, I noticed that young people are able to process cotton of high quality and yet, we import cotton wool of low quality from outside Zambia. We have since said that we will collaborate with the Ministry of Health in trying to ensure that we support these young entrepreneurs by buying their products. That way, they are going to grow. We should be proud of our own products as Zambia. Really, we are going to do everything possible to ensure that we transform the science and technology sector. We will be able to see this as we move on.

Mr Chairperson, there was an issue that was raised by Hon. Mabenga concerning the work that Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) is doing in trying to ensure that there are standards in all those institutions that they are helping us, in providing training to our young people. I want to emphasise that much as we accommodate the private sector to come and partner with Government in providing training to our young people, we will continue to support TEVETA in ensuring that the standards are not compromised. As hon. Members of Parliament, it is important that in our respective areas, we do inspect some of these private institutions. There is one college in Lusaka which was training young people in pharmacy. For a month, each student was paying K700,000 and the course was running for one year six months.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Sir, at the end of that period, this student was only being given a Certificate of Attendance. This certificate cannot even allow that person to be employed in any of the needy institutions. 

In our quest for quality, we closed the institution. We are, therefore, committed to ensuring that the people that we produce in either Government or private colleges add value to the development of this country. 

Mr Chairperson, providing skills to young people does not necessarily mean that we provide employment too. In fact, we are providing most of these skills to make people self reliant and self employed. It is not always that somebody who has been provided with a skill should look forward to being employed by another person. Some of these companies that come to invest in Zambia are owned by one or two people. One example is First Quantum Minerals. This is a company that is owned by two brothers and the people that we produce as skilled labour are being employed by them. 

Mr Chairperson, Zambians can also grow through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). The Government has provided an opportunity for our young people to borrow funds with low interest rates to enable them grow. It is possible that if people are committed they can reach their goal.  

Mr Ntundu interjected. 

Mr Namulambe: All we need to do is be serious …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Ntundu, this is the third time I have heard you make that remark. Really, let us be orderly. Do not let me look hopeless. I have powers that I can exercise. 

Hon. MMD Member: Yes! Send him outside. 

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister may continue. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, my encouragement to the young people that are being trained is that they must ensure that they look forward to forming their own companies and become employers. The skills that they are getting will help them to be self reliant. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Pambashe talked passionately about the recruitment of qualified staff at NISIR. As a ministry we are also concerned. It is our sincere hope that we will be able to employ the required manpower. We are in the process of transforming and we are very serious about it. We shall ensure that we do the correct thing for the improvement of Zambia. We shall not compromise on quality. We shall always ensure that we are serious. 

Mr Chairperson, I have had discussions with all the people manning these institutions and they know that we mean business and not games. Therefore, as a Government, we are committed. With the limited resources that we have, we can still make it. It is not trillions of kwacha that can make us transform, but the management of the little that we have. This is what we are doing. We shall ensure that we do what we are supposed to do so as to help our country to develop. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 65/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 65/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 65/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 65/06 ─ (Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training ─ Department of Science and Technology ─ K3,669,851,460). 

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification of Programme 1, Activity 05 ─ Other Emoluments ─ K72,594,492? I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this allocation has been reduced. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, some of the other emoluments were paid during the 2009 Budget. Therefore, we cannot continue paying for this activity when it was already paid, hence the reduction. 

I thank you, sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 65/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 65/10 ─ (The Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training ─ Department of Planning and Development ─ K39,185,297,207).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)    Under 1 ─ Human Resources and Administration Unit, by the deletion of Programme 99, Temporary Allocation, Activity 99, Temporary, an amount of K205,155,820; and 

(ii)    Under 6 ─ Projects Unit, Programme 12, Construction of TEVET Institutions ─ (PRP), Activity 09, Construction of Kalabo TTI, by the deletion of K1,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor
(iii)     of K1,205,155,820.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 65/10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 46 ─ (Ministry of Health ─ K1,352,443,046,457).

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute and give support to my ministry’s budget for 2010. 

Mr Chairperson, non-communicable diseases, like cervical and prostate cancer, diabetes and hypertension are here in Zambia in a big way. The rate is alarming. 

Since cervical cancer is the most common for ladies, I would urge all ladies to go for a check which is free at most of our clinics and hospitals throughout the country. For men, prostate cancer is the most common. I must state, here, that no male above forty-five years is free. It is, therefore, important that all males above forty-five years go for a check. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Simbao: It is free at most of our health facilities.

Mr Chairperson, the origin of cancer has been traced to the colon which is the custodian of most of the harmful waste. Keeping this harmful waste in the body for long periods eventually ignites cancerous cells. It is, therefore, recommended that the colon be emptied three times a day especially after a meal.

Sir, diabetes and hypertension, known as life style diseases, are common in both men and women. So, the treatment for those who are still free from these two diseases is to change the life style. We must live a more natural life. For example, we must learn to laugh a lot.

 Laughter

Mr Simbao: We have been caught up in the Western life style where everything is taken so seriously that we have forgotten how to laugh.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that we drink a lot of water.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Sir, you give us a lot of water in this House, but very few people drink it. Instead, people are busy taking harmful liquids some of which are known as tujilijili.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: These liquids are just draining the body of the necessary water. The body is made up of 75 per cent water. Therefore, we need to drink at least ten glasses of water…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! If you want to drink water, just drink. Do not disturb the hon. Minister.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Simbao: You need ten glasses, which is at least two litres, of water a day. Otherwise, the body goes into a drought management of water in the body.

Mr Chairperson, the body needs regular exercise so that the body fluids can move around and clean the waste around the cells and many important tissues ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is too much noise on my right.

Mr Simbao: … without which the cells are chocked in their own waste. Exercise also pushes the required oxygen into the body for body functioning. Therefore, exercise is very important for all of us if we have to lead a healthy life. This exercise is encouraged to be taken early in the morning because the earth would have renewed itself. Therefore, you need that renewal to get into your body. Going for exercise in an enclosure is not very encouraged because the air in the enclosure is just circulated and people keep on just breathing the same air that another person has breathed in. So, it is important that people take to the outside especially in the morning and give their body the necessary oxygen and health that it requires.

Mr Chairperson, I want to address the issue of HIV/AIDS. This disease is a killer and the medium of communication through which it spreads is the most common. We need to protect ourselves from this pandemic or else we will die. Blacks are said to be the smallest race on earth and yet we are the most infected. About 80 per cent of HIV/AIDS patients are in Sub-Saharan Africa. We have not been speared either. Zambia is one of the countries with a high rate of HIV/AIDS prevalence. At 14.3 per cent, we are just way over what it should be.

Mr Chairperson, just between 2nd and 6th November, in Lusaka alone, 650 new infections were recorded. At this rate, there will be no Zambia in 100 years. The Government is doing everything possible to wipe out the pandemic, but the citizens are not responding well. For example, the ABC Principle works - abstain if not married, be faithful if you are and wear a condom every time you are engaged whether in marriage or outside marriage.

 Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Simbao: In addition, I want to appeal to my fellow Zambians to take a test to know their status.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We must religiously take a test once a year if ever we are going to preserve ourselves for the future.
Mr Chairperson, another issue is to eat healthy foods. People should abstain from eating a lot of processed foods. Instead, they should eat more of natural foods. 

Sir, while I have been saying all this, I want to tell my fellow hon. Members of Parliament and Zambians, in particular, that no drug cures a disease. The body is made to cure itself. Any drug that somebody takes only creates an environment where the body will cure itself. So, if the body is kept healthy, the body will continuously cure itself. There will be no need for anyone to go the hospital. No drug cures any disease. Therefore, people must understand that God made us so special that we would be doing the right thing by doing most of the things that I have gone through and we will avoid sickness. Therefore, it is important that we do a lot of training. 

Sir, I have heard some people say that they cannot jog and they cannot do this and that, but this weakens the body and the immune system. As such, that is why we have seen that no matter how many drugs you may give to a person, they still die because if the body’s immune system has been weakened to such an extent that it cannot protect or cure itself, it does not matter what else you give to that body. It will give in.

Mr Chairperson, we have other challenges. One is that of training. We are not training enough medical personnel to quickly alleviate the staff shortage. At the rate of sixty doctors per year, it will take us years to meet the necessary numbers. This issue is not so much about attrition or going for greener pastures. We do not just graduate enough people to saturate our needs. We are, therefore, seriously looking at starting another medical school in Ndola. We have introduced a direct entry school of midwifery to try and mitigate the shortage of midwives. We hope that this new curriculum will soon close the gap and help address the shortage of midwives.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is that of lack of manpower. We are, therefore, operating at half capacity. The problem is more acute in the hard-to-reach areas where health facilities have either not been opened, are closed or manned by untrained personnel.

Mr Chairperson, this year, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has allocated K13 billion for recruitment of medical personnel. We hope that this amount will create employment for more people in the Ministry of Health.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of infrastructure, we do not have sufficient infrastructure and, as a result, we are building twenty-three hospitals, which are at various stages. This year, we might add three more. Out of the twenty-three hospitals under construction, twenty-two hospitals are first level hospitals, otherwise known as district hospitals and only one is a general hospital,  also known as a second level hospital.  

Out of the twenty-three hospitals under construction, twenty-two hospitals are first level hospitals or otherwise known as district hospitals and only one is a general hospital or known as a second level hospital. Out of the twenty-three hospitals, six hospitals are being built, right here, in Lusaka. Five hospitals, which are first level hospitals, are Chawama, Kanyama, Matero, Chipata and Chilenje. The only second level hospital is the Lusaka General Hospital which is being built at Chainama. Another first level hospital is being built at Lubuto in Ndola. Mr Chairperson, the hospitals being built in Lusaka are to decongest the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and the Lubuto Hospital is to decongest Ndola Central Hospital. The other hospitals are being built in various new districts except Lumwana which is being built in Solwezi.

Mr Chairperson, the other problem we have is the retention scheme. This is a big challenge as we try to keep our rural medical personnel in the rural areas. This scheme attracts K1 billion in allowances per month, and yet the scheme is made of other benefits too. This programme was 95 per cent run by donors, but we now are fully handling it. As such, we have allocated K15 billion to this scheme. We might need some more money by the end of the year.

Sir, even with these challenges, the Government is very grateful to the donors and partners who have not abandoned us and are itching to resume funding to the ministry. I, therefore, urge them to quickly come to a conclusion and be part of the service delivery to the Zambian people in the critical year of 2010.

As I have already said, the donors have decided to resume funding to the Ministry of Health and we thank them very much for this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Simbao: I also want to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who has, so far, managed to disburse 80 per cent of the 2009 Budget. I want to encourage him to continue funding the ministry it is still in need of funding, but I want to say thank you hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, I just want to say one last thing. People, the whole country over, should try to reduce stress. Hallucination creates a lot of it. People should stop thinking they are what they are not or they will be what they might not be.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: It will create a lot of stress.

Hon. Government Member: I am telling you!

Mr Simbao: Stress is a disease that is so difficult to cure. It brings about heart attacks and strokes. These are diseases that are so difficult to get to terms with. There is no kind of medical attention that can cure stress if we keep on creating it ourselves. Therefore, I would like to advise hon. Members that we should learn to be merry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We should always take things easy …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: … until we achieve them.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Chairperson, I promise to be brief in my submission.

Sir, in supporting the Vote on the Ministry of Health, I must state that I am quite saddened to note that there has been a reduction in this year’s budgetary allocation over K500 billion, and yet this is the time that we needed more money for this ministry. It must be realised that health plays a key factor in any economic development in any country, Zambia included. It must also be realised that health is life. Health brings wealth and wealth brings health. Only a healthy person is able to produce.

Now, according to our statistics of our population, about 70 per cent of the people in this country are poor. This means that 70 per cent of these people are not able to produce leaving only 30 per cent. How is the Government going to address some of these things in order to turn the 70 per cent figure around to be the healthy people and 30 per cent to be the other way round? Mr Chairperson, these statistics are quite worrying. Now that the budget line for this ministry has been trimmed, where are we going to get money to buy medicine and pay the poorly paid medical staff? All these things need money. We are now wondering how the Government is going to manage with the reduction of K500 billion.

Mr Chairperson, this reduction in the budget is due to some of the financial irregularities that happened at the ministry. For this reason, the Government should ensure that it employs more internal auditors to monitor these little resources and see how this money is being used in order to avoid donors withdrawing their support.

Sir, …

Mr Munaile: You said that you would be brief!

Mr Msichili: I mentioned that I would be brief, but I still have a few points to make.

As I listened to what the hon. Minister was saying in his policy statement, I heard him talk about us having good food. However, to the contrary, the food that is being served at the National Assembly Motel may contribute to our High Blood Pressure (BP) …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not tell us about the food at the Motel. There are channels you can follow if you are not happy about it.

Mr Mwenya: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Msichili: Mr Chairperson, I would like to encourage hon. Members that they should be eating good food to avoid some of these diseases like BP and others.

Sir, allow me to talk about issues that are affecting my constituency Kabushi. We are grateful that the Government has given us a mini hospital in Lubuto, but it must also ensure that these clinics and hospitals in our constituencies are adequately stocked with medicines and should have ambulances. Unfortunately, constituencies were given only given hearses. We do not need hearses. What we need are ambulances. Therefore, we are asking the Government to seriously look at some of these issues. We need more medical staff in our clinics and hospitals. 

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister winds up his debate he must consider some of these things I have mentioned.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the budget for the Ministry of Health.

Before, I go any further allow me to congratulate Hon. Lumba, the second born of the UPND/PF who has just come into Parliament, congratulations.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Sir, allow me also to congratulate Hon. Kazonga for his appointment as Minister of Local Government and Housing. Please, do not politicise your position, especially when it comes to meetings with the Lusaka City Council (LCC).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: I also want to congratulate my colleague, Dr Musonda, for his new appointment. I would like to inform him that I am a Member of the Committee on Health. Congratulations.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in
 the Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: When business was suspended, the hon. Member for Mandevu was on the Floor, but before she proceeds, I would like to say that this is an important Vote and we should not be saying the same things over and over. We should bring up new points and end so that other hon. Members with new points can also contribute to the debate.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I will be failing in my duties if I do not comment on the Abuja declaration. The Abuja declaration stipulates that 15 percent of the total budget should go to the Ministry of Health, but one wonders whether our colleagues on your right when they are signing these treaties do it under duress or they just do it to emulate the others who are signing for the sake of it. When you look at the Abuja declaration, it was signed in 2001 and we are now in 2009 and at one point I thought we were getting better.

Mr Chairperson, from 2006 to 2009, we saw the budget of health increasing in bits and pieces and our hope was that by 2015 we would have achieved the 15 percent allocation although that has not been so.

Mr Chairperson, I now would like to comment on HIV/AIDs. In this House, the people on your right have said that HIV/AIDs was declared a national disaster. However, the non-availability of CD4 count machines in the country leaves a lot to be desired. For example, here, in Lusaka, in Madevu, we have 3,000 plus people and there is no CD4 count machine. As a result, all the CD4 count tests that are done are sent to the UTH or Kalingalinga Clinic. Kalingalinga Clinic has CD4 count machines that were provided by the Centre for Infectious Disease Research in Zambia (CIDRZ).

Mr Chairperson, this has resulted…

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Mandevu, Ms Kapata, in order to continue debating the way she is and I know she has a heart for the Ministry of Health. However, is she in order to come to this House improperly dressed? We know that she is a nurse by profession, but she is improperly dressed because she is wearing the attire of a nurse without a head dress.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is points of order of this nature that I, sometimes, wonder what they are intended for. I do not know whether they are for light moments or what. I rule that the hon. Member is properly dressed.

Mrs Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that protection. I was saying that the system takes up to six weeks for one to be treated. This period is long that some people die in the process. This also contributes to the low turn out for voluntary counselling and testing (VCT) because people find no need to go for the test when there is nothing which will be done for them during the six weeks period.

There is a non-governmental organisation (NGO) which has just come up and is looking at 50 by15. I am requesting the ministry to give support to this movement. The aim of the movement is to reduce the prevalence of HIV/AIDs in the country by 50 percent by 2015 and they need a lot of support from all of us so that we can attain this. As a country, we are aware that the prevalence rate has reduced to 16 percent although we are not controlling the new infections. We have on record at the National Aids Council (NAC) that 250 people are infected by HIV/AIDS everyday. I need your protection, Sir, because people are making noise.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Those of you who are consulting should do so quietly so that the person on the Floor can debate uninterrupted.

Ms Kapata: Now, if we multiply that 250 people by seven days, a month, six months or a year, the figures will be alarming. This is why, as Parliament and the country at large need political will to stand up and support this movement 50 by 15.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to comment on the people living with HIV/AIDs. I have been privileged to attend some of the workshops conducted by people living with HIV/AIDs who are crying for a one stop shop. Their cry is that when one is diagnosed with tuberculosis, there is no one to counsel or influence them to do an HIV test. At the time they do the HIV text, they will have had relapses of tuberculosis two to three times and this is when they realise that there is something wrong. We are saying that can there be a one stop shop where if somebody tests for tuberculosis, there must be a counsellor within that room to advice that particular patient to do all the tests needed.

Mr Chairperson, on HIV/AIDs, I would like to know the stance of the Government on the churches which are telling the people to stop drinking anti-retroviral because they think the church can heal them. I am a Christian and Zambia is a Christian nation and we know very well that there is no treatment for HIV. What we have is something that just controls and prolongs lives and so why should we allow a situation where churches are telling people to stop drinking anti-retrovirals (ARVs)? 

Hon. Members: Which church!

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not ask her to mention the church because she is not supposed to do so.

Mrs Kapata: Mr Chairperson, allow me to talk about the bottlenecks that surround the mother-new born child health facilities. 

We have bottlenecks that are affecting mother neonatal child health and one of them is lack of good roads. I will give a very good example of Mandevu and Chipata compounds. There is a very bad road leading to the clinic. What are we doing about this because this is a bottleneck? How do you expect an expecting mother to be driven on such a bad road? 

Mr Chairperson, we also have problems with distance to health facilities, especially in the rural areas. The Government needs to do more in that area. There is also lack of decision making. The Government should also make sure that maternal health issues are discussed in the churches since almost every Zambian attends Church. Can our preacher men, at the end of every preaching, talk about maternal neonatal health so that we are able to combat the high mortality rates? 

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about lack of transport and good infrastructure. I was privileged, through a committee in Parliament, to visit, for example, Gwembe Hospital. This hospital is a sorry sight, but it is at the district center what more hard-to-reach places. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about women with disabilities. I do not know what the Ministry of Health has for them in terms of maternal health. I would like to find out whether the delivery beds are user friendly for a woman who has disability. Even just to have access to a building, hospital or clinic, it is not user friendly. Can we do something about that?

Mr Chairperson, this morning I just came from Uganda and I was attending a conference on maternal new born child health. The President of that country, I am just trying to demonstrate how political will should be in this country, was given a speech to read and he said no, I am not going to read a speech because I know what the Ministry of Health requires. He started talking about the levels of the clinics that they have off-the-cuff and he gave us a true picture of what was obtaining in Uganda. That is what we need. We do not need things to be written on paper. We need political will.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say one thing on my profession which is nursing. I would like to lobby here, through the Government, that nurses are essential workers and just like any other medical personnel. For example, our nurses are given their housing allowance. I am sure you have degraded nurses to living in shanty compounds. Most of the nurses cannot afford good accommodation, hence living in places where they are not supposed to live. 

Mr Chairperson, we have had the HIV/AIDS scourge for more than two decades and the nurses are in direct contact with HIV/AIDS in their working capacity, but there is no risk allowance given to them. When are we going to give them a risk allowance because some of them have been infected whilst on duty?

Mr Chairperson, uniform allowance. How do you give a nurse K35,000 to buy a nurse’s uniform, and yet we expect them to look smart? A normal uniform costs K150,000 and what is K35,000 in this case?

Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to comment on the cancer unit. A cancer unit to me has remained a white elephant.

Interruptions 

Ms Kapata: Why do I say so?

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: We still have a lot of cases being referred out of the country for treatment. Why can we not put the things that we need in that cancer unit so that most of the patients are treated within the country? The money that we spend sending these patients outside the country, would buy some of this equipment that we need in that cancer unit.

With these words, Sir, I thank you.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote. I will be very brief and I want to concentrate on the issue of the HIV/AIDS pandemic and bring new points in addition to what Hon. Jean Kapata has made on the Floor of this House.

Mr Chairperson, the statistics given by the hon. Minister, which we do know are very worrying, about the HIV/AIDS situation in Sub-Sahara Africa and Zambia in particular. It is very serious and it needs a lot of explanations. I am wondering for example, why in North Africa the prevalence rate is so low and in Sub-Saharan Africa and especially Zambia where we are in epicentre of this pandemic is so high. What are the factors underlying this spread because it is the same Africa. What is the problem really? So, these are the issues I want to bring to the fore for discussion.

Mr Chairperson, I want to say that even in our economic planning, we have not factored the issue of HIV/AIDS. As for the Vision 2030, I do not believe in it because the fundamentals are not addressed. It is a blared vision. I think they copied it from some country because I read in Namibia it is also called Vision 2030. So, they copied the exact year. 

Hon. Opposition Member: It is cut and paste.

Mr Hamududu: The Vision 2030 is actually a cut and paste job. I can prove this to you because you came later. Botswana has Vision 2016 and so on, but how do you coincidentally have Vision 2030 as if you developed it in conjunction with other countries.

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Yes, you cut and paste.

Interruptions 

Mr Hamududu: Now, in Zambia the issue of HIV/AIDS has not been factored in our ….

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You finished your debate. Now, I do not want to allow anymore points of order because I would like us to end debate on this Vote. If we do not finish it today, you will be postponing it to another day for the third time and that is why I am appealing to all of you to, at least, be brief. I have noticed that there are over fifteen people on my list who want to debate. Now, I am going to take at least those that have not spoken in the last few days. It cannot be everybody.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Hamududu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I want to bring the issues of the aspect of HIV/AIDS economics to the fore for discussion on the Floor of the House. That the issue of HIV/AIDS has not been factors in our economic planning. The little economic gains that we have had in the past few years are reversed by this pandemic. We are losing a lot of productivity time and productive people and we have not quantified this loss. I want to tell you that in many places, we have lost powerful scientists, economists, engineers, farmers and all categories of people and we keep losing them.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, these are the people who have the skills in those sectors. I want to tell you for example, in agriculture, the people that have the knowledge in our rural areas of agriculture are leaving and they are leaving behind female and child-headed households who might not be skilled to carry on with the agricultural activities. This is what actually is increasing the poverty in our rural areas. The big pillars are falling due to HIV/AUIDS. My worry is that we have not recorded any significant decrease in the infection rates. The situation is the same and it is very worrying because we are now having child-headed households and female-headed households. As you know, our cultural set up in this part of the world is that most of the facilities are given to men and the issue of gender now comes in. There is a need to achieve gender balance by giving more emphasis, in our planning, to issues of women. 

The economic vulnerability of women is what is making them actually contract HIV/AIDS and it is a known fact that women are really exploited sexually because they have less economic power. As Hon. Kapata has said, to address this problem, we need strong political will. We, the leaders, must come out very clearly on a very high moral standing to give an example to society and our young people. We should take a leaf from what has happened in Uganda, which is one of the case studies of a country that has reduced the infection rates of HIV/AIDS to almost a very small percentage of the population. This all happened because of the political will of President Yoweri Kaguta Museveni of Uganda. He has taken it upon himself to sound the warning and give leadership, which is being replicated by other leaders in the lower ranks. 

Therefore, without political will in the highest offices of all our Government departments, we will not win this war because the war against HIV/AIDS is basically a moral issue. This is a moral disease and is basically spread by debased morals in our society. In this country and in Africa generally, HIV/AIDS is mostly spread because of weak morals and morality must be sounded from the highest leadership in our society. Without political will, our fight against HIV/AIDS in this country will not be won. All of us who are in leadership or aspire to be in leadership, must take a leaf from the leadership of President Yoweri Mseveni. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to ask the hon. Minister of Health to really look at the drivers of HIV/AIDS. We need to conduct a research and find out what the real drivers behind this pandemic are. Without knowing the real drivers in our case, we might be addressing the wrong issues. Hence, I want to mention a few that I know. Firstly, it is the lack of support to women. For example, as regards agriculture in my constituency, there are traditional crops for women and those for men. Women are into cassava, sweet potatoes and groundnut cultivation. These crops do not receive Government support in terms of input and marketing and this is perpetuating poverty among our women and making them vulnerable to ‘vultures’ that prey on them because they are weak. That is why … 

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Yes, it is the men who prey on women who are vulnerable. You know that, so why are you arguing?

Ms Cifire: You men are always weak.

Mr Hamududu: We must face the fact that we are leaders and stand up now and show a good example of high morals. Leadership is not for the morally weak.

Ms Cifire: Who is weak?

Mr Hamududu: It is for the best in society.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Hon. Cifire, as an hon. Deputy Minister ….

Mr Hamududu: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am afraid that if we allow this kind of exchange to go on, it will not augur well with us. I know that matters of gender are close to women’s hearts, but we should not interfere, and, please, keep your cool.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Muntanga: It is because she is sitting in a new seat.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, let me make progress. Such a debate must be supported by women. If women leaders are well meaning, they must support this …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … and I expected female hon. Members to be saying, “Hear, hear!”

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Without hearing women in here say, “Hear, hear!”, I wonder what type of women leadership there is in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the HIV/AIDS pandemic is highly linked to the food insecurity in our region. I am wondering whether in the West, for example, the HIV/AIDS prevalence rate is really low. Is there not a connection between good nutrition and the virus not blowing into the AIDS stage? People might have the virus, but they are not sick because of the conditions under which they live. 

I think the former President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, did not explain further about what he meant when talking about HIV/AIDS. He said AIDS is not caused by HIV. To really qualify this statement, he should have gone further to say that with good nutrition and so forth, people can have HIV, but still not have AIDS. I think the period between infection and full blown AIDS in Africa is very short because of poor nutrition and unavailability of food. Sub-Saharan Africa, here, is where there is poor agriculture. Therefore, there is a direct link between full blown AIDS and nutrition. Therefore, if we do not support agriculture and, indeed, the women in agriculture, they will continue being vulnerable. Apart from that, when they get sick, they will get full blown AIDS quickly unlike if they had a good diet. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to comment on the Government’s roll out programme on ARVs drugs. The ARV roll out programme must be supported by good nutrition or availability of food, otherwise these drugs become poisonous to patients. If the issue of food security is not addressed seriously in our rural areas, as it is a cross- cutting issue, ARVs will not help us much. I know that these drugs work, but they must be supported with good nutrition. For example, in my constituency, there are women care givers doing wonderful work. We must congratulate the women of this country on that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: They are doing wonderful work by looking after the sick, but they do not get specific support and we expect the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development to support the hon. Minister of Health so that gender issues are addressed. Gender matters are not only about having 30 per cent women representation in Executive positions. They are also about addressing the economic issues of the majority of the poor women and, therefore, gender matters must not be reduced to positions of women who have gone to school in the Executive. It is true that we need gender balance in decision making positions, but more so, there is a need for a balance in economic activities and support. 

Mr Chairperson, let me also comment on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). I was in my constituency for a fact finding mission for three days this weekend. Women are not getting a fair share from this programme. The FISP must be segregated. There must be a particular portion for women because they cannot compete with men to get a fair share. Therefore, we must engender the FISP. Women must have a special facility so that they are protected. Right now, women are getting a raw deal. Men run the co-operatives and are busy exploiting women to pay high fees. Therefore, I am sick and tired of this co-operative nonsense.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! You cannot use the word “nonsense” in this House.

Mr Hamududu: I withdraw the word, Mr Chairperson. I am sorry.

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Hamududu: I do not know why we have continued using co-operatives when they are in total chaos. I saw this when I was with my constituents a few days ago. Members are asked to pay so many fees and all co-operatives are run by men. This is why we are asking the Government to adopt the Malawian example. The Malawian fertiliser and seed support programme is the best. We should just go there and copy what the Malawians are doing without being ashamed. The concept of co-operatives is exploiting vulnerable women and perpetuating poverty. Already, the FISP is in chaos and the people who are affected are women. Therefore, it exposes them to AIDS and women …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am a bit reluctant to allow points of order because, like I said earlier, we really want to complete the deliberations on this Vote. All the same, I will allow you to raise the point of order.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I have never interrupted my young brother who is debating very well. However, I am concerned with his statement that we should go to Malawi and just copy what is being done there without changing anything. Is he in order to proceed along that line without saying that the Malawian example is actually the current Zambian programme on fertiliser and seed support? 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Exactly carbon copied. Is he in order not to mention that in actual fact, this is very good and that his organisation should also state that this is very good.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka:  What the Government is doing is good because it is the exact carbon copy. Is he in order not to further state all these things?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala seems to be using a point of order to debate cleverly. 

Hon. Hamududu you may continue, please.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, that point of order is from my former political ally. 

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: We no longer speak the same language. I have the budget speech for Malawi and in fact, in Malawi, they have a carry over stock. Last year, they could not exhaust the fertiliser and seed. It spilled over to the following year. The budget is well managed in that country, a thing which is not happening here. And I do not know what copy is that which people have been calling for a simpler system. Give the farmers the vouchers, the actual paper so that they pick fertilisers. At themoment, I do not know whether people live in this country or not. 

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: I visited the sheds and I know what is happening.

In conclusion, I want to conclude by saying that we need strong leadership on this problem. 

On the issue of HIV/AIDS and as a member of coalition of African Parliamentarians against HIV/AIDS, I want to say that what is lacking in the fight against HIV/AIDS is political will, a strong and moral leadership. Leadership is not for everybody, it is for the best in society that can set moral standards that can serve society. Without a moral calling from the highest, we will not win this war. Therefore, as leaders, we must sacrifice and show good example as that is the only way we can fight stigma and the spread against HIV/AIDS. The leaders must be on top of the fight against HIV/AIDS.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the motion on the Floor. 

Sir, from the outset, I would like to indicate that I will not debate the whole Ministry of Health. I will just debate on one vote. While I appreciate that this vote has a lot of important programmes and activities, I will just debate Programme 1 which is Emoluments.

Mr Chairperson, I remember very well when I was a civil servant some three years ago, whenever you hear that the President is about to make his presidential speech, some of us who had that privilege of having a television set, made sure that we located the best reception for the television set so that we could clearly get what the President was talking about. Those who had no privilege of having those television sets made sure that small radios, the ITT and Supersonics had batteries so that they could get the speech from the President.

Mr Chairperson, I can be assured that even the subsequent years, what civil servants looked for when the President was giving a speech were words of comfort. Therefore, when he talked about the Ministry of Health, civil servants in the Ministry of Health were expecting words like, “Since we had experienced some strikes in the recent past, my Government has done A, B, C and D so that we can comfort the civil servants.” Therefore, they expected some increment of more than 15 per cent for housing, uniform and risk allowances. Those are the things the civil servants in the Ministry of Health were looking for. However, the President just talked about the …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Chitonge, you are debating like you are debating the presidential speech. If you want to make reference to the problems of the civil servants, really, do not dwell on the presidential speech. 

You may continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about one cadre in the Ministry of Health, a thing which is well known by almost everybody. I will give an example of a nurse. If you look at the pay slips of these poor nurses, the amount of money they get at the monthend is something which you cannot like.

Sir, I have a pay slip with me here.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Government Members: He has nothing to talk about.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

You are not the presiding officer. Please, talk in general terms and I hope you are not going to say this nurse got this and that much because that is not the issue. Talk in general terms and continue.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, I am not talking about an individual male or female nurse.

The Deputy Chairperson: I feared you were going in that direction.

Mr Chitonge: I am talking generally. If you look at the pay slips of these civil servants in the Ministry of Health, their salaries are in the range of K1.3 million after deductions and these are not politics, it is the reality of what is obtaining on the ground. 

Sir, let us take, for instance, a nurse who stays in Chawama and works in Mandevu …

Hon. Opposition Members: Harmer!

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised, but before you do that hon. Minister, you know I get the impression that you are getting tired of the debate. You have your point of order.

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairperson, I did not intend to disrupt the debate of the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwansabombwe. You have guided that we should talk generally, but the pay slip that he is talking about is actually a confidential document and we value salaries as confidential documents. Is it in order to display or talk about somebody’s confidential salary in the House or should we ask for him to lay it on the Table? I need a serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: A serious ruling is that the Chairperson thinks there is nothing confidential about salaries. If you recall, I stopped him from mentioning the name and so on and so forth because I was concerned that it would not be in order. He is talking generally about salaries of nurses being low. I do not think there is anything confidential about that.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Sir, I am not talking about politics, and if you want to bring politics in this vote, then we are going nowhere. I am talking about realities; things that are happening on the ground. 

Sir, somebody lives in Chawama and is getting K1.3 million. This person has to go for work in Kanyama or Mandevu. Now, lets go by the calculation. This person has to pay K3,500 from Chawama to Kanyama and the same amount getting back to Chawama, which is K7,000. If you multiply that by 7 you will find that K200,000 is being knocked off from this K1.3 million. Now we are talking of K1.1 million. This same poor nurse has to pay for electricity and if you get K100,000 from there, you are talking of K1,000,000. Again this person has to pay for water, so you deduct K50,000 from there. This same person has a family and he/she has to pay for accommodation and for decent accommodation, you are talking of K700,000 or K800,000 in those compounds. This will give us K200,000 as balance before we talk about food, school fees and all these necessities because this human being has to buy clothes and shoes.

The average salary most of the health workers get is K1.3 million per month. Do you think with this salary somebody can go for work at say Kanyama Clinic and deliver health services, no. Most civil servants report for work late. For example, some civil servants in the Ministry of Health have two jobs.  If somebody lives in Chawama and works at Kanyama Clinic, he will report for work at Kanyama Clinic at 0930 hours instead of 0730 hours because he has to work up around 0600 hours and go to a private clinic where he or she will work for three hours. Then by the time he reaches Kanyama, it is 0930 hours or 1000 hours. This person will just work from 1000 hours to 1300 hours. Again at lunch, he has to get to the nearest private clinic and work for one hour. So you find these civil servants report late for work and knock off early, why? This is because they want to supplement the meagre salaries they get.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Yet, somebody here should stand up and defend that this is confidential. What type of confidentiality are we talking about?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Do not qualify the ruling of the Chair. 

You may continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Health, in his policy statement, talked about immunity of drugs. He said the drugs that are administered do not cure, but what cures are the antibodies that are produced. This is correct. If someone takes panadol, it is not panadol that cures, but the panadol will produce anti-bodies that will fight against that specific disease. 

Interruptions

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about ...

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Mwansabombwe in order to mislead not only himself but also this House and the nation ...

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: ... by saying that when a patient takes panadol, anti-bodies will cure whatever disease they are suffering from?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

The hon. Member for Mwansabombwe should take into account the point of order that has been raised by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. The Chair believed what was being talked about, but with that point of order, there is something amiss. 

You may continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Thank you very much. Before the point of order was raised, I was trying to say that if you take any antibiotic, the body will respond by producing antibodies because it will be regarded as a foreign thing. That is what I was talking about.

Interruptions

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson...

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Both of you sit down. Let me advise the hon. Member for Mwansabombwe that he is attracting points of order because of the scientific nature ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Can you assist us by going away from that issue and talk in principal. Otherwise, you will not get anywhere.

You may continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Thank you very much. There are so many laymen there, that is why I will drift away from this issue and talk about something else.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

The hon. Member must realise he will attract points of order from the hon. Members on my right, especially the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives who is a medical doctor. I do not think there should be dialogue between you and other medical experts. Can you move away from that issue and go to the next point?

You may continue, please.

Interruptions

Mr Chitonge: Thank you very much, Sir.  I need protection from these laymen.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You may continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Thank you, Sir. 

If you look at the 2009 Budget, 11.9 per cent was budgeted for, but it is 8.2 per cent in the 2010 Budget. The hon. Member for Mandevu talked about the Abuja Declaration and you will find that we are going four steps forward and ten steps backwards. If you compare the two budgets, civil servants in the Ministry of Health have no hope that they will be given decent salaries. There are certain workers such as nurses who get K35,000 as risk allowance.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I have problems. The Chair has noticed that some of the members on the Executive are making noise. I do not want to mention names. The House should keep order, otherwise I will send out those interrupting the business of the House.

The hon. Member for Mwansabombwe may continue, please.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chitonge: Thank you, Mr Chairperson ...

Mr Muyanda interjected

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hold on! Will the hon. Member for Sinazongwe, Mr Muyanda, leave the House? We must maintain discipline. That is not in order. We have to finish what is on the Order Paper.

The hon. Member for Mwansabombwe may continue, please.

Mr Muyanda left the Assembly.

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Health has been allocated 8.2 per cent, and yet the Abuja Declaration is 15 per cent which will be reached when the Opposition takes over Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitonge: Mr Chairperson, the 8.2 per cent which has been allocated is equivalent to K1.3 trillion and is not enough. There are a lot of things that need to be done in the ministry. In fact, K500 billion is gone and ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Who is saying chiwoneni chisilu? Will Hon. Mulyata leave the House?

Mr Mulyata left the Assembly.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, there can be no alternative to discipline. There has to be discipline in this House. I will not tolerate indiscipline. This is unacceptable. I do not like this.

The hon. Member for Mwansabombwe may continue, please.

Mr Chitonge: Thank you, Sir. Most of the civil servants will not vote for the MMD Government because their salaries are too low. Workshops are only for certain officers. They get K1 million per day which is equivalent to a salary. This is not fair. For example, most of the civil servants celebrated during the Kasama By-elections when they heard that the Opposition had won. This is because the MMD Government does not offer anything good. The same thing happened in the Solwezi By-elections. Come 2011, I do not think civil servants will vote for the MMD Government.

Thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Simbao: I thank you, Mr Chairperson. I will be brief in winding up debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Health.

Sir, I do not know what value the last part of  Hon. Chitonge’s debate added to the topic on health. If the hon. Member wants to discuss as he just did, I am sure there are appropriate forums where he can do that. I think we should be a bit more focused as we discuss the votes. It helps. I pity Hon. Chitonge and wish he could get back to his books because he seems to be forgetting how all things relate in the human body. It is not right to say what he has said because this is health we talking about. We are not talking about something funny. It is not right.

Hon. Hamududu, we know the drivers of HIV. One of them is that many of our people spend too much time away from their homes and, therefore, are forced to get into things they should not. That is why we say that, please, use condoms. We are not saying that go and have sex. However, because of the pressure that people sometimes experience, we have to ask them to use condoms. Please, use condoms. That is what is used in the Eastern African countries that you mentioned such as Eritrea and Ethiopia. Condoms have been their survival tactic and they are at 1 percent infection rate.

In Zambia, we have some sections like the Northern Province which is at 6.8 per cent and North-Western Province at 6.9 percent infection rate. Lusaka is at 22 per cent.

Ms Changwe: Hah!

Mr Simbao: You can see the problems. Therefore, if you stay long away from home and are under pressure, please, use a condom.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: It shall save you.

Hon. Kapata talked about the CD4 count machines. We are buying these machines and our intention is to provide every health facility where we have trained personnel with this machine.

Let me talk about the issue of churches stopping people from taking ARVs. I must say that a person who is sick needs a doctor. Once you are sick the condom cannot work. You need a doctor and a drug to assist the body’s defence system. You cannot be stopped from taking drugs once you are sick. It is not right. If there any churches that are stopping people from taking drugs, I do not know how else they can cure them. I hope such a situation is not there.

With regard to nurses’ accommodation, Hon. Kapata can go to the UTH near the mortuary and see the construction of nurses’ accommodation underway. This year, we are constructing thirty-two houses for nurses and another thirty-two for other medical personnel. 

Mr Chairperson, we are going to procure uniforms for nurses because we have an allocation towards this activity in the budget. The K35,000 you talked about is the up-keep allowance. This money is only for buying soap to wash their uniforms. It is not for buying the uniforms. Surely, it is enough to buy soap for washing the uniform. 

Hon. Government Members: Boom.

Mr Simbao: As regards how these people are being remunerated, we must understand that these people are civil servants. Even if other people took over government, I do not know whether they would scrap off the civil servants union. The civil servants union negotiates on behalf of civil servants and what they get for them is what they earn. It is not our wish that people should earn what they earn. They have a union that negotiates for them.  In a negotiation, people put on the table what is available and what can be taken. 

I praise the people who have debated my vote and in the interest of time, I would like to stop here.

 I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 46/1 – (Ministry of Health – Human Resource and Administration – K207,741,802,295).

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): May I have clarification on Unit 4, Programme 9, activities 03 – Suppliers Appraisal and Strategic Relationship Management – K38,231,343, 04 – Professional Development Programme for Procurement Staff – K159,298,100, 05 ─ Development of Procurement SOPs – K35,841,884, 06 – Mid-Term Procurement Reviews and Audits – K19,912,158, 07 – Contract Management – K79,648,632. There was no provision for these programmes in the 2009 Budget. Why have they been provided for in the 2010 Budget? Does it mean that these programmes where not there in 2009?

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, can the hon.  Member repeat her question?

The Deputy Chairperson: Ms Kapata, repeat the question, please. Let us pay attention when question are being asked so that we do not waste time.

Ms Kapata: May I have clarification on Unit 4, Programme 9, activities 03 – Suppliers Appraisal and Strategic Relationship Management – K38,231,343, 04 – Professional Development Programme for Procurement Staff – K159,298,100, 05 ─ Development of Procurement SOPs – K35,841,884, 06 – Mid-Term Procurement Reviews and Audits – K19,912,158, 07 – Contract Management – K79,648,632. In 2009, there was no provision for these programmes, what was happening to these programmes in this year 2009?

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Kapata is right. These systems have come about as a result of what has happened in the ministry and we would like to strengthen the procurement system. This is why all these lines have come up.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to have a clarification on Unit 5, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Human Resource Management – K395,696,088. Last year, K24, 810,249,106 was provided, but for 2010, only K395,696,088 million has been provided. I would like to find out why there is such a big discrepancy and what is happening?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, the question that has been raised by the hon. Member is covered by the amendments that we have issued which was circulated on 19th November, 2009 and the document for that was circulated under the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: I think it is time for you, Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to move your amendment.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)    under Unit 1 – Administrative Unit, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 01, Salaries Division I, by the deletion of the figure K876,309,989 and the substitution therefore of K21,012,160,146;

(ii)    under Unit – Administrative Unit, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by the deletion of the figure K21,187,878,807 and the substitution therefore of K3,602,949,614;

(iii)    under Unit 1 – Administrative Unit, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 03, Salaries Division III, by the deletion of the figure K8,084,402,419 and the substitution therefore of K187,518,953; and

(iv)    under Unit1 – Administrative Unit, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 04, Wages, by the deletion of the figure K222,997,483 and the substitution therefore of K736,890,521.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 46/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/02 ─ (Ministry of Health ─ Directorate of Planning and Development ─ K14,925,214,043).

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 10, Activity 05 – Procurement of Medical Equipment and Activity 08 – Ambulances and utility vehicles. I note that this year, there is no allocation and yet in our debates, we have been talking of buying medical equipment. 

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, the funds are required to meet the costs of rehabilitation and extension of health infrastructure. The funds will be used for rehabilitating and completion of health facilities. The decrease in the allocation is mainly caused by the absence of…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, it appears you did not understand the hon. Member’s question. Why are there no funds on Programme 10, Activities 05 and 08? I always say that when questions are being asked, please pay particular attention.

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry about the mix-up. Activity 05 – Procurement of Medical Equipment has moved to Vote 46/07, Unit 1, Programme 10, Activity 01 – Procurement of Medical Equipment – K19,672,039,572.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 46/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/06 – (Ministry of Health – Public Health and Research –K15,226,295,921).

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Management and Control of HIV/STIs, Activity 03 – Control and Treatment of TB and Leprosy, Activity 04 – Child Health and Child Survival and Activity 05 –Integrated Reproductive Health. Why are there no allocations for these activities in the 2010 Budget?

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, Activity 02 and Activity 03 have been moved to Unit 1, Programme 20, in the same department. Activity 04 has moved to Unit 2, Programme 22.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 20, Activity 01 came from Programme 8, Activity 02, according to the hon. Minister. Last year, we had K16,982,421,706 and this year, we have K250,200,246. Therefore, why has there been a reduction when we know that HIV/AIDS and STIs are rampant in the country?

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, last year we were establishing a lot of systems in the management of HIV/AIDS. We have now established these and we do not need the funding. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 46/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 46/07 ─ (Ministry of Health ─ Clinical Care and Diagnostic Services ─ K331,530,688,871).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification of Programme 8, Activity 01 ─ Support Function ─ K1,448,886,986? There has been a very big reduction from last year’s allocation of K9.5billion. I would like to find out what support function this is and why the allocation has been reduced.

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, these funds will be used to procure the necessary supplies and services to support the operations of clinical care support departments including laboratory, radiography, physiotherapy, pharmacy and laundry. 

Mr Chairperson, the reduction in the total allocation to the hospital is due to the withdrawal of donor funding. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 25, Activity 03 ─ Conduct HIV Drug Resistance Surveillance ─ K4,899,137? I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much surveillance can be carried out with this amount of money. Is this not a drop in the ocean?

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, the funds are required to support HIV drug resistance surveillance to limit treatment failures. 

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification of Programme 8, Activity 19 ─ Management of Drug Stock. There is no allocation this year. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how they will manage the drug stocks without any allocation. 

Furthermore, Sir, may I also have clarification of Programme 11, Activity 04 ─ Vaccines and Immunisation Supplies ─ K9,736,127,764?  Why is this?

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, this budget line has moved to Programme 27. The hon. Member can confirm that. 

I thank you, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: I have been advised that there is an amendment on this vote.

VOTE 46/07 – (Ministry of Health – Clinical Care and Diagnostics Services – K331,530,688,871).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

Vote 46/07 − Ministry of Health − Human Resource and Administrstion
 
(i)    Under Unit 2 – University Teaching Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 01, Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of the figure K19,371,629,124 and the substitution therefor of K16,289,635,012;

(ii)    Page 466, Under Unit 2  – University teaching Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by deletion of the figure K30,519,222,179 and the substitution therefor of K25,663,664,472;

(iii)    Under Unit 2 – University Teaching Hospital, Programme 1, personal Emoluments, Activity 03, Salaries Division III, by the deletion of the figure K2,141,510,646 and the substation therefor of K1,800,799,849;

(iv)    Under Unit 2 – University Teaching Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 04, Wages, by the deletion of figure K7,901,391,173 and the substitution therefor of  K6,644,292,923;

(v)    Under Unit 2 – University Teaching Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 05, Other Emoluments, by the deletion of the figure K2,876,256,855 and the substitution therefor of K1,223,664,604;

(vi)    Under Unit 2 – Ndola Central Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division, II, by the deletion of the figure K10,781,187,310 and the substitution therefor of K8,602,084,258;

(vii)    Under Unit 6 – Kitwe Central Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 01, Salaries Division I, by the deletion of the figure K5,646,782,994 and the substitution therefor of K4,584,872,960; and

(viii)    Under unit 6 – Kitwe Central Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, salaries Division II, by the deletion of the figure K10,072,286,061 and the substitution therefor of K8,327,572,881.

Vote 46/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/10 – (Ministry of Health – Central Province – K79,488,274,854).

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(i)    Under Unit 1 – Kabwe urban District Urban Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by the deletion of the figure K6,123,977,537 and the substitution therefor of K5,101,183,985; and

(ii)    Under unit 2 – Kabwe General Hospital, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by the deletion of the figure K6,448,672,615 and the substitution therefor of K5,063,706,471.

Vote 46/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/11 – Ministry of Health – Copperbelt Province– K130,140,888,272).

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move and amendments Under Unit 6 – Kitwe District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by the deletion of the figure K9,563,631,819 and the substitution therefor of K7,851,132,011.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Provisional of 1st Level Referral Services – K391,384,087. I would like to know why there has been this reduction. 

Sir, may I also have clarification on same Programme, Activities from 05 to 12. I would like to find out why there has been no provision this year. May I also know what plans the ministry has and how the children are going to survive?

The Deputy Minister of Heath (Dr Musonda): Mr Chairperson, funds are required to meet the provision of 1st Level Referral Services to patients referred from health centres. The services include emergency obstetric care, complicated malaria and other acute condition requiring more specialised skills to manage.   

Therefore, the services are either provided by a local district hospital, purchased on capitation basis from the nearest second level hospital or from any level one hospital outside the district. Therefore, the decline in allocation is attributed to the non-inclusion of donor funds which have been withheld following the allegation of misappropriation of funds in the ministry.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: You have not answered the other question based on the Activities 05 to 12 having no funds provided.

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, as regards Activity 05 − Integrated Reproductive Health, following the adoption of an integrated approach to planning, the Ministry of Health budget is no longer prepared among vertical disease categories or target groups such as malaria and child health respectively. On the contrary, budgets have been prepared along service delivery modes such as community services. Health fade out its services and placed first level services to benefit from synergies and complimentary between programme and confirm where services are provided in practice as a package rather than in silos. Hence, no funds are provided against this activity which will be implemented in the packages above. This applies to all the other activities, which are Activities 06 to 07.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that the hon. Deputy Minister is giving us that answer and yet when the hon. Minister was on the Floor this afternoon and he said …

The Deputy Chairperson: You are debating.

Ms Kapata: I am not debating, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are debating. What is your question?

Ms Kapata: Where is the donor money which the hon. Minister alluded to in his answer this afternoon?

The Deputy Chairperson: The way I understood it was that the hon. Minister said, this time around, the donors had agreed to resume funding the ministry. It must also  be remembered that this budget must have been prepared long before the donors took this stance. So, I do not think that is something to talk about.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 46/11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/12 – (Ministry of Health – Eastern Province - K93,698,519,846).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Head 46/12 – Ministry of Health – Eastern Province

(i)    Under Unit 1 – Chipata District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by the deletion of the figure K5,962,766,067 and the substitution therefor of K4,925,557,255; and

(ii)    Under Unit 10 – Petauke District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II by the deletion of the figure K7,427,209,302 and the substitution therefor of K6,035,580,288.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 46/12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/14 – (Ministry of Health – Lusaka Province – K28,846,441,781).

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

Head 46/14, Ministry of Health – Lusaka Province

(i)    Under Unit 1 – Lusaka Urban District Health Manaement Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 01, Salaries Division 1, by the insertion of the figure K6,762,262,704;

(ii)    Under Unit 1 – Lusaka Urban District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division ii, by the insertion of the figure K26,507,005,852;

(iii)    Under Unit 1 – Lusaka Urban District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, activity 03, Salaries Division III, by the insertion of the figure K5,915,859,944;

(iv)    Under Unit 1 – Lusaka Urban District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 04, wages, by the insertion of the figure K6,569,839,017;

(v)    Under Unit 1 – Lusaka Urban District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 05, Other Emoluments, by the insertion of the figure K5,000,000,000;

(vi)    Under Unit 2 – Luangwa District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 01, Salaries Division 1, by the insertion of the figure K626,773,845;
(vii)    Under Unit 2 – Luangwa District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division II, by the insertion of the figure K2,731,031,178;

(viii)    Under Unit 2 – Luangwa District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 03, Salaries Division III, by the insertion of the figure K41,974,412;

(ix)    Under Unit 2 – Luangwa District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 04, wages, by the insertion of K506,148,425;

(x)    Under Unit 2 – Luangwa District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 05, Other Emoluments, by the insertion of K1,895,828,262;

(xi)    Under Unit 4 – Kafue District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 01, Salaries division 1, by the insertion of the figure K1,727,311,940;

(xii)    Under Unit 4 – Kafue District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 02, Salaries Division ii, by the insertion of the figure K7,866,513,129;

(xiii)    Under Unit 4 – Kafue district Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 03, salaries division III, by the insertion of the figure K1,517,810,261;

(xiv)    Under Unit 4 – Kafue District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 04, Wages, by the insertion of the figure K1,138,571,599; and
(xv)    Under Unit 4 – Kafue District Health Management Team, Programme 1, Personal Emoluments, Activity 05, Other Emoluments, by the insertion of the figure K1,895,828,262.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 46/14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/15 – (Ministry of Health – North Western Province – K68,934,076,091).

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activities 03 – Construction of Hospitals – K6,559,299073 and 04 – Construction of Health Posts – K937,042,725, I would like to know where construction of hospitals and health posts will take place in the North-Western Province.

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activities 03 – Construction of Hospitals – K6,559,299073, the funds are for completing construction of district hospitals in Lumwana, and Mufumbwe.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Activity 04?

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 04 – Construction of Health Posts – K937,042,725, the hospitals will be built in Zambezi and Chavuma.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on Unit 2, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Performance Assessment – K168,909,869, I would like to know why there is an increase in the allocation. Again, under the same Programme, Activity 03 – Utilities and Other Office Costs – K381,858,752, I would like clarification.

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, on Unit 2, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Performance Assessment – K168,909,869, this provision is required to facilitate the undertaking of performance assessment whose objective is to strengthen the health delivery system and ensure that the quality of health services are of acceptable standards. The district management team visits various health centres and first level hospitals, within its catchments area, to assess the quality of health delivered against jointly agreed upon performance targets.

On Activity 03 – Utilities and Other Office Costs – K381,858,752, the funds are required to settle utility bills including electricity, water and telephone. The decrease in the allocation is attributed to non-inclusion of donor funds which have been withheld following the allegation of misappropriation of funds in the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, again on Unit 2, Programme 9, Activity 03 – Utilities and Other Office Costs – K381,858,752, I would like to know how they are going to account for these donor funds because …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______________

HOUSE RESUMED

[THE DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 27th November, 2009.