Debates- Friday, 31st July, 2009

DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 31st July, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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BUSINES OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the second stage of the following Bills:

(a) the Public Private Partnership Bill, 2009;

(b) the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, 2009;

(d) the Postal Services Bill, 2009.

This will be followed by the consideration of the Committee Stage of the following Bills:

(a) the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2009; and

(b) the Service Commissions (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

On Wednesday, 5th August, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. This will then be followed by presentation of Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading Stage of the following Bills:

(a) the Notaries Public and Notarial Functions (Amendment) Bill, 2009;

(b) the Non-Governmental Organisation Bill, 2009;

(d) the Health Professions Bill, 2009.

On Thursday, 6th August, 2009, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, there will be presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider any outstanding business that may have been presented to it earlier in the week.

On Friday, 7th August, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will have presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider any other business that may have been presented to it earlier in the week.

I thank you, Sir.
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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

BUDGET PERFORMANCE FOR HALF OF THE YEAR AND INABILITY OF THE TREASURY TO RELEASE ADEQUATE RESOURCES TO MINISTRIES, PROVINCES AND OTHER SPENDING AGENCIES

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a statement on the Government fiscal position which has led to the Treasury not providing enough resources for operations of ministries, provinces and other spending agencies.

Mr Speaker, before I go any further, I wish to remind this august House that not long ago I made a statement to inform the nation about the effects of the impact of the global financial crisis on the domestic economy. In addition, my ministry submitted to this House, through the relevant committee, a memorandum to explain the impact of the global financial crisis. May I restate the fact that the genesis of the crisis never emanated from Zambia, but the country had to endure its consequences or effects just because the Zambian economy is part of the global village through trade, investment and other channels.

Mr Speaker, the global financial crisis led to the fall in domestic demands in the developed economies, especially in the United States of America which is the biggest economy in the world. This fall in domestic demands also had a negative impact on countries exporting to these countries as fewer goods were demanded in the same market. As a result, these exporting countries also ended up demanding less inputs or raw materials. Our, country being an exporter of primary goods or raw materials, suffered following the collapse of commodity prices, especially that of copper, cobalt and nickel.

What followed has been evident as mining companies had to undertake measures to cut on production costs, including shedding of labour as a way of survival while some companies have closed since. To supplement these efforts, the Government had come up with several measures which were presented to and approved by this House. Indeed, the impact of the global financial crisis on the mining industry has been clear as income has been lost following the fall in metal prices. Equally, the impact on the Government revenues has not been good as less taxes have become payable.

Mr Speaker, the other impact of the global financial crisis on the Zambian economy has been on the domestic currency, the kwacha, which has depreciated by more than 30 per cent since the start of the crisis. The domestic currency was under a lot of pressure because many portfolio investors decided to take their moneys out of the country. Although the depreciation of the kwacha is good for exports, this, however, has made the imports very expensive. The results are reduced demand for imported goods and reduced revenues for the Government on taxes from those inputs.

Sir, I thought of giving this background information so that this House can better understand the transmission mechanism of the global financial crisis and how its effects has impacted, so far, on the 2009 Budget. In coming up with the 2009 Budget, a number of assumptions and estimates were made and some of these have turned out different after the review of the first half of the year. One such area that has been negatively affected has been with respect to revenues.

Mr Speaker, the overall Budget performance of the first half of the 2009 fiscal year has been characterised by significant challenges in terms of meeting the programmed revenue and expenditure targets owing to the slow down in the global and domestic economy. Total revenue and grants for the period amounted to K5,169.61 trillion and were below the target of K6,870.70 trillion by 24.8 per cent or K1,701.09 trillion. This poor performance is mainly accounted for by trade taxes, budget support and project grants receipts that were 24.2 per cent and 71.7 per cent below the projections respectively. Within this, domestic revenue collections amounted to K4,642.39 trillion and were below the mid-year target by K366.95 billion. Tax revenue collections were below the target of K4,823.55 trillion by K353.17 billion or 7.3 per cent while non-tax revenues were above target by K13.77 trillion.

Sir, the above collections were affected by the reduced inflow of imports during the period under review as a result of the depreciation of the local currency that made most imports more expensive and a general decrease in economic activities in the mining sector. With regard to Budget support and project grants, the actual receipts are below target because some of the co-operating partners have withheld releases partly because of the recent developments in the Ministry of Health.

Mr Speaker, with the above developments I have just highlighted, this House would appreciate that effect on the execution of the 2009 Budget has become complex and challenging. With the reduced revenues, the corollary is that expenditure or funding has to be reduced and realigned to match the resources available. However, in doing so, there are certain expenditure items which take high priority when resources are inadequate. These include salaries and wages, domestic and foreign debt payments, grants to a number of Government institutions because they have salaries and wages elements. In such a situation, and going by past experience, operational expenses and capital spending are the ones that usually suffer.

Mr Speaker, as a result of shortfall in revenues, total expenditure during the first half of the year was below the projected level on account of lower than programmed releases on both foreign and domestically finance expenditures. A total of K5,964.07 trillion was released against the projected figure of K7, 648.77 trillion and was below the target by K1,648.70 trillion or 22 per cent. Due to this precarious situation of resource constraints, my ministry was unable to release funds as per profiles submitted by ministries and other spending agencies. This was not and is not a deliberate move by the Treasury to derive these institutions of the much needed funds, but a consequence of revenue shortfall. This is a reality and the implications that not all approved estimates of expenditure will be funded in full.

Mr Speaker, the country has been going through difficult times and, usually, difficult times require difficult decisions. We cannot afford to continue with an attitude of business as usual and we will have to make tough decisions. We have to prudently make use of the available, but scarce resources so that we stop the slow growth of our economy. Revised estimates indicate that our economy will now grow at the rate of about 4.5 per cent compared to 5 per cent projected at the beginning of the year. At such a difficult time, the Government’s strategy is to priorities funding to strategic programmes such as the infrastructure while at the same time, ensuring that resources are provided to the social sector to avoid any deterioration in the quality of social services provision. Implementing this strategy means resources will not be available to other non-priority programmes. Ministries and other spending agencies will have to prioritise programmes they wish to implement within the resources they are going to receive to whatever levels.

Mr Speaker, in terms of moving forward, we have been engaging our co-operating partners who have withheld the disbursement of the programme grants resources with a view to seek releases of these funds so that the Government can implement the poverty reduction programmes in the 2009 Budget. With regards to mobilisation of domestic resources, extra administrative efforts have been taken to improve the situation and ensure that all tax and non-tax revenues are collected so that the financial gap can be reduced.

Mr Speaker, to end my statement on a positive not, I wish to inform this House that even in the midst of these financial difficulties, the Government has managed to release more resources in the month of July of about K301.5 billion for various infrastructure programmes. Of this amount, K183.7 billion is for roads, K52.1 billion for rural electrification and building of dams and K32.7 billion and K33 billion for infrastructure in the health and education sectors respectively. With these resources, it is expected that implementation of a number of important capital programmes will be accelerated.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been made by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the admission that his ministry is short of money. I would have been better informed if he had specified the tough decisions he has taken apart from his incapacity to meet the social sector demands on a monthly basis.

Secondly, while his ministry has no money, all the banks in this country are making huge profits. Is it not true that you are adding on to your unspecified tough decisions by looking at the issues of interest rates and the cost of borrowing from these banks which are essentially not even Zambian? I am asking this question in order to help our country move forward.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, just to emphasise on what I said earlier on, the tough decisions mean that in the light of reduced tax revenues, we have to make priorities. The priorities I said will be social sectors and infrastructure. I, also, indicated the amount of money that has just been released so that infrastructure in various parts of the country can be attended to. In that light, I also indicated that other administrative and current expenses are the ones to be sacrificed. On the issue of interest rates, I do agree and we keep pushing on this. The other side of it is the need to attract investment in the country. As our economy expands because of more investments, it means that the spill over effects are going to increase. This is the way forward.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning admit to this House that he deliberately ignored advice that was given to him by this House to avoid this very situation that he is reporting on.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am not able to answer the question because it was extremely vague. What advice is the hon. Member talking about?

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, while I appreciate the statement given by the hon. Minister, I would like to find out how many of his colleagues in the Cabinet and the Civil Service are aware of this particular situation that we are in. Noting that, for example, there are hon. Ministers that are permanently swinging between aircraft.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: If you check the register, most of the hon. Cabinet Ministers are not here. This is a serious issue. The cost cutting measures in governance have to reflect.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: How many of your colleagues know about the seriousness of the global financial crisis or is it just you who knows about it?

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the Cabinet and the leadership of this country is fully aware of what is transpiring in our economy. These are issues that are discussed and shared among us.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of travelling, even under these difficult circumstances, there are people who have to go around and look for resources and investments.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hon. Mutati.

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, for example, the hon. Member is talking about Hon. Mutati. When Hon. Mutati comes back, he will announce to the nation that he signed an agreement with an investor worth US$300 million or US$200million.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, it is clear that as we move forward, indeed, there will be constraints on our expenditure. However, some of us in the team have to move in different directions. There are results to show for it because, every month, we are announcing new investments in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I feel for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning regarding the economic situation in the country and world over. I agree with him when he says serious decisions have to be made.

Mr Speaker, we are aware that in 2008, we managed to get some revenue of about K390billion from the Windfall Tax. There were some mining companies that did not pay that money pending the determination of what they looked at as a conflict between the development agreements and the new tax regimes. Since the law was applicable in 2008 and the money was put in special accounts, has the Government not thought of ensuring that this money comes to the revenue because this has to borne by the people of Zambia and the people who do business with us?

Mr Speaker, since that money was made not from outside innovation or good management, but because our copper fetched high prices, is the hon. Minister considering recalling that fund so that it helps us when we want to balance our budget?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, there were two aspects to this. The first aspect is the money for which there was no dispute. This money was, as I indicated in the Budget Speech, incorporated in the 2009 Budget and is part of the money that we have been spending.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: The other aspect is the money that the hon. Member is talking about, which is under dispute. Being a Government that follows the rule of law, it is only right that we allow the course of justice to proceed. I am certain that if we get a favourable ruling, this money will, obviously, always be available to this nation for us to spend on various developmental programmes.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member said K168billion has been released for road works. However, this money does not include funding for the Zimba/Livingstone Road. Payment certificates 5, 6 and 7 have been submitted, but China Geo, who we owe about K17 billion, has not been paid since April. What are we doing about this because, at the moment, the work has stalled?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the decision about which certificates are critical and need to be paid is for my colleague, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to make. However, he has just confirmed to me that part of this money will, indeed, be used to pay that particular contractor.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, a revenue shortfall of about 25 per cent in the first half is, in my view, catastrophic for a nation. Can the hon. Minister reflect on the fact that when an entity in the corporate world faces a situation like the one this nation is facing, there are measures taken to ensure that it comes out of that particular situation. In the way forward, the hon. Minister talked about engaging co-operating partners and asking them to release the money that they are supposed to release. He also talked about Government’s efforts to mobilise resources. However, he has not looked at the expenditure side. Would he state to this House that now is the time to come up with serious expenditure reduction measures in the way we run our Government in order for us to move forward?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, to start with, it is important that we put issues in context. Otherwise, there is a danger that we may judge ourselves in one way or another, which may be out of reality.

Mr Speaker, I have a number of printouts, here, indicating the effect of this crisis on the world economy. For example, a print-out from the African Development Bank has the following statistics: In 2008, as a result of this crisis, shortfalls in trade taxes across Africa were estimated at US$2.7billion. In 2009, this increased to US$15.1billion. In 2010, the amount will increase to US$18.6billion. This is the picture across Africa.

Mr Speaker, I have another print-out which reads:

“Due to global financial crisis, Australian Federal Government Revenues dropped by more than US$100 billion. There is another pull-out from Uganda. The Uganda Revenue Authority registered a tax revenue shortfall of U S $1.8 billion in the last financial year.”

      A print-out from Kenya reads:

              “Last week, Kenya Revenue Authority announced that it had missed its total revenue collection by US $151 million. Mexico is slashing its budget for the second time this year to cope with a record revenue shortfall amidst the worst recession in more than a decade.”

Mr Speaker, what this means is that as we judge ourselves, we must take the correct perspective, which is that is that this crisis is not just about Zambia. It is across the globe.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, let us moderate our excitement and not judge ourselves too harshly.

Mr Speaker, obviously, when a crisis emerges, we cannot sit back and say, “there is a crisis and, therefore, we will do nothing about it.” We have to do something and that something is what I have explained. In the light that we have reduced resources, what do we do? What we, as a Government, have said is that we will use our resources on the most critical aspects of our lives, which are the social and infrastructure sectors.

Mr Speaker, I believe this is the correct way in terms of moving forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, everybody acknowledges that the hon. Minister responsible for the Treasury is under a considerable amount of pressure because of the global crisis.

Mr Lubinda: Ask your question.

Dr Kalumba: The question that I want to…

Interruptions

Dr Kalumba: I wished …

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, I will spare my brother.

Mr Speaker: Order! Ignore them. Address the Chair.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, in light of what the hon. Minister has observed and the serious statistics that have been provided to indicate the pressure on the Treasury, is he likely to revise the macro-economic targets significantly or even consider the prospect of coming to this House with a mini-budget, which would reduce the expectations created by the original Budget that was set earlier in the year.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, clearly, one important parameter in all this is to revise downwards, as I indicated, the growth target.

Mr Speaker, I take the advice of the hon. Member and former Minister of Finance and National Planning who just spoke. Probably, I would have considered it positively if the Budget cycle was not going to be changed, but in view of what we are about to discuss and if that goes through, probably, I would think that the presentation of the next Budget is just a few months away. Therefore, that will be the right time to make those revisions and moderate the expectations that he spoke about. If we are to do that, now, it would leave us with very few months of implementation anyway. Probably, that is not a very useful thing at this time. I would like to thank the hon. Member for his concern.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, since we are talking about priorities, high and low priorities, I would like to ask about the priority in three areas. Is the priority of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) relative to other priorities? Another priority area is the availability of funds to purchase maize which includes not only what is given to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), but also that which comes from private banking finance for traders and millers which is, at the moment, inhibited by the interest rates that were spoken of. The third one is the extension of the National Constitution Conference (NCC) as announced by his Honour the Vice-President. Could we have an idea of the relative prioritisation of these areas?

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I wish to confirm that the CDF remains a priority.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Maize funding remains a priority.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, finally, except to a very small fringe of this society and Parliament, as indicated by that fringe of society that boycotts…

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: … important national events of governance that we always talk about, I wish to confirm that the NCC, also, remains a priority.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I heard a very loud question somewhere. Let us hear if that question has an answer.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, in his preamble the hon. Minister indicated that mining companies reduced their labour force as a result of the global financial crisis. In view of the fact that 40 per cent of our revenue comes from Pay as You Earn (PAYE), what is this Government doing to compel mining companies to re-engage the people that they retrenched in view of the fact the copper price is now above K5,000.00?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member has noted correctly, some miners lost their jobs. In a similar vain, those who are alert are fully aware to the developments in this country and that one of the mining companies that had closed has since reopened in the constituency where the hon. Member comes from. I am sure the hon. Member is aware of that. As a result of that, we are happy that miners are being re-engaged. In fact, as a result of this investment, more miners are getting jobs than before.

Mr Speaker, in fact, the whole essence of our programme, this year, was to come up with what we needed to do under this current economic crisis to minimise job losses and ensure that those which are lost are, as quickly as possible, recovered. A case in point is the re-engagement of miners. This just confirms that the approach that the Government took at the beginning of this year has been the correct one because it is bearing fruit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, recently, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, purchased 100 controversial hearses that were intended to be distributed to all local authorities in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President the reason behind the exclusion of councils in the Southern and Northern provinces, in particular, that are perceived to be strongholds of the Opposition. These councils have not been accorded the services of these controversial hearses. Is the Government confirming that people are not dying in these councils and to the nation that these hearses were bought for political purposes? I need a serious answer.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to note that all the hon. Members, perhaps, including Hon. Mwiimbu, now realise that these are important items.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: When the hearses were purchased, there were all sorts of allegations and insinuations that they were unnecessary and, instead ambulances should have been bought.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Now, indications are that all the Members of Parliament, like Hon. Mwiimbu, want these hearses.

Hon. Member: We do not want them!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: These hearses are available for distribution. Please, just see the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Boma!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … who has instructions to distribute these hearses throughout the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, these are important items, especially for our people in rural areas …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … so that they can bury their dead in dignity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is a listening Government which will attend to requests for hearses from all over the country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, in the past few days, we saw two members of the African Peer Review Mechanism Board (APRM) being dismissed. However, there are people going around the country saying that they were dismissed because they interfered with a case which is with the police. Could His Honour the Vice-President put things straight to the nation?

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: Can he tell this nation what transpired? What happened?

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: It seems the people who are talking seem to have a bigger voice and the nation is listening to them. Can His Honour the Vice-President put this straight?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! This is an honourable House comprising hon. Members who should, therefore, listen to one another honourably. It does not help for the hon. Members to shout or scream when another hon. Member is raising a question of interest to the people he represents and even to the nation as a whole. If you do not wish to participate, remain silent. Even when I speak, I hear very strange remarks and see finger pointing which is extremely rude. I shall not allow that. Listen to one another.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the APRM process is a very important governance process. Since Cabinet put in place the National Governing Council (NGC) of forty-seven members, we have been under pressure, especially from civil society organisations, that we should reduce the number. In view of the current economic crunch, there is need to save on costs and streamline the operations of the APRM.

The country’s support mission led by Dr Gracia Machel, an eminent person, came to Zambia and also talked about the same issue of streamlining the operations of the NGC and the need to reduce the number of people on the NGC.

Mr Speaker, it is from that background that we decided that we should reduce the number. In doing this, we took into account various factors, one of which is the need for efficiency and attendance of meetings. We also took into account work already done and still to be done. On that basis, and the need to save on costs, we decided to trim the number of people on the NGC. There are no sacred cows. We have put in place replacements where there is need and the number has been reduced from forty-seven to, only, thirty. This is in the interest of the nation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, in the past, the Government has been saying it is still studying the issue of purchasing mobile hospitals. May I find out whether it has now finished that study and what the decision is, taking into account the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s ministerial statement in which he bemoaned the lack of funds in the country? Does this Government still find it prudent to go ahead and purchase mobile hospitals?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that the issue of mobile hospitals is under study. In fact, it is the intention of the Government to put in place a committee to study this aspect. We have had representations from their Royal Highnesses in this country who know the problems and sufferings of our people in rural areas. They believe that this would help the poor people in the rural areas.

However, this proposed procurement is intended to come out of some financial support or a loan facility from outside the country. It is not that we are going to procure these, if the decision is made, from money which is available. There is long-term credit which may be available for us to procure these mobile hospitals if a decision is made. I believe people in rural areas, represented by the hon. Member who has asked this question, would benefit from such facilities.

Therefore, we are looking at the pros and cons of procuring such mobile hospitals. Of course, consultations have to be done if all stakeholders are involved or interested in this particular aspect.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chitika (Kawambwa): Mr Speaker, last week, on Friday, in Mansa, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia assured the people of Luapula Province that the problems at Mansa Batteries, Kawambwa Tea Company and Mununshi Banana Scheme were going to be resolved or addressed as soon as possible. This is an important Government assurance coming from His Excellency the President. Now, taking into account the suffering of the workers at the Kawambwa Tea Company have endured at the hands of the Zimbabwean investor, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President how soon this soon is. In short, when is the Government going to address the problems at Kawambwa Tea Company, Mununshi Banana Scheme and Mansa Batteries?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, in fact, last month, I also went to Mansa where similar issues also arose. As a Government, and as confirmed by His Excellency the President, we are committed to addressing these problems. When the Head of State makes such a commitment, indeed, it means that the Government will look into the matter.

Issues which have been raised about treatment of employees and all matters to do with that investment will have to be looked into. All I can say is that His Excellency the President has committed the Government. As a listening Government, we know that our people in Luapula Province need this kind of investment. In fact, they need these kind of industries. If, as Government, we can provide solutions like what we are doing to other industries like Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and other similar industries, we should move in and look after our people in Luapula Province, Mansa and Kawambwa inclusive.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr R.C. Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, in the recent past and in the current financial period, the country, like a lot of poor nations, has relied on donor support for project and budget support, resulting in donor fatigue which means that donors are tired of assisting us. These donor funds also come with conditionalities which, if not met, lead to the funds being withdrawn. A good example is what has just happened in the Ministry of Health where funds have been withdrawn because of not meeting donor conditions. What is the Government doing to ensure that our donors do not get tired of supporting us year by year in budget support and projects?

I would also like to know what measures the Government has put in place to mitigate the suffering the nation is going through because of the withdrawal of funds by donors when we do not meet their conditions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker that is a very important question. Many African countries, and Zambia is not an exception, rely on donor support. In fact, our budget, year in year out has a deficit which has to be filled in by grants or budget support from donor countries.

Mr Speaker, the donor countries come to finance certain capital projects and this kind of assistance comes with conditionalities. Some of the conditions are good and include, for example, respect for human rights, the fight against corruption and prudent management of resources. At the bottom line, it is our wish that even donor countries should respect the sovereignty of the countries to which they render their financial support and, therefore, we also wish to exercise some measure of independence and sovereignty so that we can make decisions relating to donor funds as independent States.

Mr Speaker, the question asked entails us reflecting on how we can lessen our dependence on donors. How do we lessen on donor dependence which comes with conditionalities? There are many ways in which we can do this. One of the ways is to grow the economy so that we do not depend so much on donor support. The other way is to manage our financial resources prudently and show credibility in the way we do it so that we get credit rating on the international financial markets.

Mr Speaker, if we are rated highly in terms of credit, we can raise our own finances from the international financial markets. For example, Ghana issued a bond on the international market some years back for US $750 million. That particular issue of debt was over subscribed up to US$5 billion because in that economy, people have trust and it is well rated in terms of credit and, therefore, Zambia should follow this kind of path so that we can raise commercial loans.

Mr Speaker, we can also get finances from the diaspora. Our people outside the country can also transfer their money back to Zambia and many countries are developing through this kind of financial support. I also wish to say that the Chinese financial support has fewer strings attached and almost all African countries are going to China to ask for financial support and credit lines. In fact, it is well known world-wide that the Chinese seem to be conquering the world with investment rather than bullets…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and, therefore, even European countries and America are borrowing from China because they have trillions, in United States dollars, in reserves.

Mr Speaker, my appeal to western countries is to lessen on their conditionalities so that in the same way they are going to China to borrow money, we can also go to them so that, as partners, we can support each other financially. That is one of the ways in which we can lessen donor dependency.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, since or around 1982, it has been, still is and likely to continue being a nightmare even next year to drive between Chipata and Lundazi because of the dilapidated condition of that road. We smiled for a while when Reubex Construction moved to the site, but the pace at which the works are being done of is, unfortunately, very slow. May His Honour the Vice-President give assurance to those of us who use that road constantly that this nightmare will not be there come next year?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the position is that Reubex Construction is working on that road in Phase I. Phase 2 will be advertised.

That road is very important to our people in Eastern Province and we are committed to ensuring that the road network in Zambia is as smooth and as passable as possible. So, we are working on that road and we shall continue to do so. This is a commitment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Momba): Mr Speaker, we are in deficit of about 2 million housing units and the Housing Board Trust was formed to raise money. Last week, I read in the newspaper that this board is in red and has been disbanded. May I know if that is true?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, thank you for that question and reminder, I have taken note. Therefore, you can get further details from the Minister of Local Government and Housing. Unfortunately, I have been taken by surprise, but I have taken note and we will try to confirm what the position is.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge) Mr Speaker, I would like to ask His Honour the Vice-President what the Government intends to do to the emerging outcry across the country from peasant farmers given the low level target that has been set by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) when, in fact, the country has produced a bumper crop. It appears that the small scale farmers in rural areas may not have the markets because the FRA targets, in most districts, is very low and it is not willing to buy more than 4,000 bags in most districts. Is the Government intending to provide other alternatives for selling the crops for peasant farmers?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, a ministerial statement was given in this august House, this week, and that issue was debated extensively. What the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives said is that a sum of K10 billion is available and that he is pushing for a further release of money up to K90 billion so that we can continue to purchase maize from our hard working farmers and also taking into account the bumper harvest. However, he also mentioned that, and those who were following will admit, we have liberalised the marketing of crops like maize and the Government cannot be expected to purchase all the crops.

Mr Speaker, indeed, we should help our farmers as much as possible, like what they do in many other countries where governments come in, sometimes, to subsidise strategic commodities like maize. We are doing that in Zambia. Therefore, even through the FRA, we should be able to purchase as much maize as possible and this is what we have been doing all these years. However, as you have observed, we have an economic crunch and money is hard to come by, so the private sector should also come in so that we can purchase as much maize as possible. That is all I can say on this.

Dr Mwansa: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka): Mr Speaker, continuing on the subject of maize, could the Vice-President brief us on the ongoing exports of roller meal to Zimbabwe from several milling companies in Lusaka, which has, actually, led to the rationing of this commodity at some milling companies to retailers wishing to sell it. This is because the hon. Minister in his statement did not cover the export of roller meal, he covered another batch of exports all together. What is the information missing? We, on the fringe, would like to know that.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I believe that that is normal trading between Zambia and Zimbabwe because we are part of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) region and, as a country, we should continue to trade with our neighbours. Therefore, there is nothing unique about that particular transaction. What I know is that we also had undertaken that responsibility to assist the people of Zimbabwe with 9,000 metric tonnes of maize, but they opted for mealie meal. That is another aspect of our assistance to our brothers and sisters in Zimbabwe and the millers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chililabombwe has given up. She has been struggling.

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Mr Speaker, may I find out from His Honour the Vice-President why law enforcement officers at Kasumbalesa Border Post are failing to provide peace and security to the Zambians citizens and the immigration officers. It was only yesterday when the Congolese stoned Kasumbalesa immigration officers and Zambians at large and they even forced the officers to release the detainees. What is the role of the law enforcement officers?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, matters to do with neighbouring countries, especially trouble in border areas are delicate matters which are normally resolved through diplomatic channels. We have a Joint Permanent Commission between Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Therefore, such matters should be resolved through those channels. However, I have taken note of the issues which are being raised. Indeed, there should be good neighbourliness. We should live in peace and tranquillity with our brothers and sisters across the border and such border areas should be peaceful. We are providing all the necessary security to ensure that our people are safe and that wherever there are differences with our neighbours they are resolved in a peaceful manner.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I will ask a question just to seek clarification. During the privatisation of the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) the then Minister of Finance and National Planning stood at the dispatch box and stated to this House and the nation at large that 49 per cent shares of ZANACO where being sold or privatised. Now, would the Vice-President clarify the statement made two days ago that, in fact, the then Minister of Finance and National Planning sold 75 per cent shares of ZANACO instead of the 49 per cent which he informed this House about.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, yes, I can confirm that those are the transaction details and, indeed, there was a 49 per cent shareholding which was sold. However, I think, the private sector stake in ZANACO is more than 49 per cent because there are other minority shareholders which confirms that, in fact, the private participation in ZANACO is more than 49 per cent. For further details on the actual shareholding, that is the position on which you can act upon.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

REHABILITATION OF ROADS IN THE COPPERBELT PROVINCE IN 2007 AND 2008

401. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) how much money was spent on the rehabilitation of the following roads in the Copperbelt Province in 2007 and 2008;

(i) Sabina-Mufulira-Mokambo; and
(ii) Ndola-Mufulira;

(b) who the contractors for the works at (a) above were; and

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, in response to the question by the hon. Member for Kantanshi …

Mr Speaker: Order! The House is not following. May the hon. Minister speak louder.

Mr Ndalamei: Maybe, it is because of my height.

Laughter

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, K4,266, 585,480 was spent on the periodic maintenance of the Sabina/Mufulira/Mukambo road between October, 2007 and April, 2008 while K4,821,215,638.36 was spent on the Ndola/ Mufulira road between 10th September, 2007 and 31st April, 2008.

Mr Speaker, the periodic maintenance of the Sabina/Mufulira/Mukambo road was awarded to Messrs Road and Paving in September 2007 at a contract sum of K4,296,305,020.88, Value Added Tax (VAT) inclusive. The periodic maintenance of the Ndola/Mufulira road was awarded to China-Geo Engineering Corporation Limited at a contract sum of K4,824,294,995, VAT inclusive in August, 2007. The periodic maintenance of both Sabina/Mufulira/Mukambo and Ndola/Mufulira roads were carried out and completed in accordance with the specifications in the contracts in April, 2008.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, despite spending those amounts of money on the rehabilitation of these two roads, their state is worse off than before. These roads have become a safety hazard to road users and their vehicles. What is the Government doing in the interim to ensure that these roads are properly rehabilitated so that the users do not risk their lives by using them?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, I wish to acknowledge that the roads in question need attention, but their state is not as bad as the hon. Member is exaggerating. I went to see the roads and know their condition. I, also, wish to inform the hon. Member that a contractor has offered to repair the Sabina/Mufulira road under the Public Private Partnership (PPP), if that is acceptable. We have begun discussions on whether this contractor can attend to the road as quickly as possible. As for the Ndola/Mufulira road, we have plans to see what we can do in the interim because resources are not available to do new projects.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the patching up of potholes is done every year on the Sabina/Mufulira road. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the Government’s plan to work on this road for it to last for more than five years.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that the road is patched every year. The current state of the road is as a result of the heavy traffic that goes on it. Of course, the Government is concerned with the maintenance of all roads. Like I have said, the long term solution is that we are discussing with the contractor, who has offered to come on a PPP arrangement to re-do the road. The maintenance of roads is very costly and we cannot guarantee the outcome immediately, but we will do everything possible to maintain the road to a motorable state.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, the state of the two roads is so bad that we are afraid that Mufulira will be cut off from the rest of the country. Now, just when is the Government going to do a proper job on these two roads because we are tired of seeing children putting gravel on the roads and charging motorists K500 or K1000 per day.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I have been on these roads and while the concerns of hon. Members are appreciated, they must acknowledge the fact that it is not the only road in Zambia requiring maintenance. There are several other roads in the country that require attention. It is a mark of selfishness to insist that only roads in their constituencies must be done.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mulongoti: They must, also, consider other roads in the country. So, we will do what we can, mindful of the fact that whatever resources are available must be spread out in a way that other roads are also attended to.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

MOBILE PHONE PROVIDERS IN LUENA CONSTITUENCY

402. Mr Milupi (Luena) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) when mobile phone providers at the following places in Luena Parliamentary Constituency would increase the cellphone
coverage to 100%:

(i) Kaba Hill in Simaa Ward;

(ii) Sitoya in Ushaa Ward;

(iii) Mushitwambumu in Mabili Ward; and

(iv) Ikabako in Namitome Ward; and

(b) what measures had been taken to boost Zain Zambia Limited transmission power to achieve a 50 kilometre (km) radius coverage at the following places in the Western Province:

(i) Limulunga;

(ii) Isambai; and

(iii) Miulwe.

The Deputy Minister of Communication and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, there are no immediate plans by Zain Zambia Limited to install communication towers in Kaba Hill, Sitoya, Mushitwambumu and Ikabako areas. The telecoms tax regime, tax incentives and waivers, licensing regime, geographical terrain and economic impact in Zambia inhibit network coverage expansion to low economic activity areas such as these. In addition, the cost of doing business in such areas is high due to the location and low population.

Mr Speaker, Zain Zambia Limited has no immediate plans to boost its transmission power to achieve a 50 km radius coverage in Limulunga, Isambai and Miulwe areas due to the reasons given above.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker the coverage area given by service providers for any base station is, usually, in excess of 25 kilometres, but rarely do we get this when we drive away from any given base station. Would the hon. Minister indicate why this is the case.

The Minister of Communication and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, there are a number of factors. The terrain of an area affects the frequency of the connectivity on mobile phones. The other factors have to do with the equipment under use and that is why, for example, service providers like the Zambia Telecommunications Limited (Zamtel) are modernising their equipment by employing Global Systems Mobile (GSM) and CDMA as a way of circumventing the problem of connectivity.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, if the terrain is one of the inhibiting factors for mobile providers to provide network coverage in Luena constituency, is the Government considering inviting other providers such as Vodacom, which I know is on satellite and can provide network coverage to Luena.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, pronouncements have been made, so far, regarding the telecommunications system in the country, but the Government has no plans to do what the hon. Member is suggesting. The Government’s position is very clear on this issue.

Mr Speaker, the current plan is to address the issues of tele-density in the country. As a Government, we are concerned with the penetration of information technology (IT) so that our people are brought in the orbit of telecommunication. This is the concern of the Government at the moment. The factors that we are looking at very seriously are matters of access, affordability, equitable distribution of telecommunication systems as well as effectiveness in terms of the profitability of those providers who are in the industry. To do that, we are looking at issues of rural connectivity as well as addressing matters of under served and unserved areas in order to attain equitable distribution of our connectivity.

These are the issues we are looking at, at a policy level in order to develop telecommunications effectively, broadly and equitably in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE SHOOTING OF TWO STUDENTS IN MAY, 2008

Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how far the investigations into the shooting of two University of Zambia (UNZA) students in May, 2008 have reached;

(b) whether the police officers involved in the shooting have been prosecuted; and

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, the investigations into the shooting of two UNZA students in May, 2008 have been concluded.

No police officer has been prosecuted due to insufficient evidence. The measure that the Government has taken to avoid a repeat of such shootings is to acquire non-lethal riot equipment to be used in such situations. This year, the Zambia Police Service has budgeted for the procurement of water canons and rubber bullets.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I am surprised by the hon. Minister’s answer. When police officers go for duty, they are allocated bullets. To have found out which police officer shot or fired was a question of having looked at how many bullets each police officer had remained with. A person was killed, what more evidence do they want for them to bring this culprit to book?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, as the answer indicates, investigations were carried out on the incident. The truth of the matter is that we had a number of police officers who were assigned to that operation. Unfortunately, a number of them had live ammunition and to scare the students quite a number of them fired in the air.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mangani: When the investigations were concluded, a docket was presented to the Director of Public Prosecutions who felt that it would be a miscarriage of justice to arrest the entire team that went for that operation. That is what happened.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister explain the situation that occurred on the Copperbelt.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member will note that we are dealing with the UNZA issue .

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who gave orders to the police officers to carry live bullets as they went to control the riot at UNZA?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, it is a routine operation that when such a situation arises, some officers must carry live bullets. However, we do not encourage them to use live ammunition on crowds. We all have a problem of a psychological nature that prompts us to run at the sound of live ammunition, but not when we see fumes of, just, tear gas.

Therefore, the police officers are tempted to fire just to scare away people and that is what normally happens. Otherwise, it was just a stray bullet and, unfortunately, it hit into one of the students.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, it is very annoying for the hon. Minister to state that a stray bullet shot someone. Can he differentiate what stray and targeted means because a life was lost? Can he be a bit more serious.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, it was a stray bullet because there was no life that was lost.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, this issue of stray bullets turning from the air to people is not the first one. The then Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha promised this House that they would order rubber bullets so that they would stop using live bullets. I would like to know what has happened regarding the purchase of the rubber bullets.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order. The Chair knows that hon. Members on my right work as a team, but in this particular case, the House wants to hear from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, we are still very alive to the promise that was made by the then hon. Minister. Yesterday, I mentioned that we have set aside K4billion because we know that we have a problem in this area. We are definitely working on this area.

I thank you, Sir.

POPULATION OF PUPILS AT MWENSE HIGH SCHOOL

404. Mr Chongo (Mwense) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) what the total population at Mwense High School in Mwense District was;

(b) what the condition of furniture and desks at the school was;

(d) what measures had been taken to cater for the shortfalls in furniture and desks at the school.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker:

(a) the total population for pupils at Mwense High Schools is 1,016 pupils;

(b) the furniture is not in good condition and the school has a shortage of desks; and

(c) the ministry is aware that it has been a long time since the school, including many others across the country received new furniture; and

(d) the Government has, therefor,e budgeted for the procurement of furniture and desks for schools in Luapula Province.

The distribution is done at district level and it is up to the district to identify the needy schools when distributing the desks.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, given the situation at Mwense High School where pupils just stand when in class, would the hon. Minister confirm that poor results that are being produced at this school are as a result of a learning environment that is not conducive? If this is the case, what is the ministry determined to do?

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, we appreciate that it is important that in order for a child to do well in class, the school environment must be conducive and, obviously, desks, that make comfortable sitting for the pupils, are very important.

In Luapula Province, as a whole, we have a programme to provide desks. The Government in 2008 purchased 1,220 desks for Mwense District bringing the total, currently, to 5,290. We agree that there is a shortfall currently of 945 desks and these will be budgeted for this year, 2009.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that we have a shortfall of about 350,000 at a national level. We budgeted for K30 million, this year, to try and reduce this shortfall by about 100,000 desks. However, we concede that we have to buy more to provide an enabling learning environment for pupils so that Mwense District is not affected in terms of results by the shortage of desks.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated, in her response, that there are desks budgeted for Luapula Province. When are these desks going to be purchased because my constituency, Samfya District, has few desks in most of the basic schools? In some cases, there are no desks at all.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, for the whole of Luapula Province, we intend to purchase about 6,521 desks this year. I know, in particular, that Samfya has a shortfall of 1,498 desks even though we purchased 1,935 in 2008. Yes, that is not enough to meet the demand that exists in the whole province, but due to budget limitations, this year, we are able to purchase on a national level, only, 100,000 desks.

Let me also inform the House that we are also trying to encourage the local production of these desks because they are being imported at the moment. We are, currently, working with the Mupepetwe Development Company in Serenje, which is providing us with about 25,000 desks. We, as a ministry, would like to encourage other people who have the capacity to do this to make sure that they supply us with desks as quickly as possible not just to meet the demand in schools, but also as a way of taking part in the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) Programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

ATTAINMENT OF THE 50 PER CENT DECLARATION ON WOMEN REPRESENTATION IN PARLIAMENT

405. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Gender and Women in Development:

(a) what the ministry’s strategy for attaining the 50 per cent Southern African Development Community (SADC) Declaration on Women Representation in Parliament was; and

(b) whether the ministry had been engaging political parties in Zambia to lobby them to adopt more women to contest parliamentary and Local Government elections.

The Deputy Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, this question, actually, gives us an opportunity to inform the House that SADC was operating under the Gender Declaration from 1997 to August, 2008. It was during this period that countries aimed to attain 30 per cent women representation in decision making positions, including representation in Parliament. However, I am happy to inform the House that in August, 2008, SADC countries signed what was known as the SADC Gender Protocol and under it, countries have challenged themselves to attain, at least, 50 per cent women representation in decision making positions. Therefore, we should now be talking of 50-50 and not 30-70 representation and move towards equality and equity.

Mr Speaker, as you maybe aware, the higher threshold in the protocol has posed a challenge considering that the country had not yet attained the lower threshold of 30 per cent that was in the earlier SADC Declaration. In this regard, the Gender in Development Division (GIDD) has undertaken to revisit and strengthen the earlier strategies as a way of speeding up the operationalisation of the protocol in order to reach the new threshold. The following are some of the strategies that the Government and the stakeholders have been working on:

(i) programs to ensure that girls enter and complete their education such as the re-entry policy to provide them with the necessary skills and qualifications to enable them take up positions of decision making. Through these programmes, the Government ensures that in the long run, we can have educated, skilled and assertive women for future leaders;

(ii) working with, co-ordinating and encouraging other stakeholders to work towards sensitising the Zambian public to first accept that women can be formidable parliamentary candidates and secondly, that both men and women have to vote and ensure that more women are elected to Parliament and, indeed, other elective offices; and

(iii) educational campaigns to encourage women’s access and participation in the electoral process.

In light of this, Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that my division is taking a lead and will later, this year, in fact, review our National Gender Policy which the Government adopted in 2000 in order to bring it up to date with all other international and regional instruments signed since then.

On part (b), Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that our division has not engaged political parties in Zambia to lobby them to adopt more women to contest parliamentary and local government elections. The role of the division is to co-ordinate, monitor and evaluate gender mainstreaming and not to lobby political parties as there is a danger of being misunderstood and labelled partisan. It is for this reason that we will continue to work with other stakeholders and to assist in building the capacity of women who have the potential to become leaders.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, on the basis of what the hon. Deputy Minister has stated, it is clear to me that this 50-50 declaration cannot be attained because I do not see any specific programmes which will ensure that we will get 50-50 representation in this Parliament. Is the division, really, serious about attaining the 50-50 representation in Parliament?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member could be suffering from dodosia. That is why…

Mr Speaker: Order! Whatever that disease maybe…

Laughter

Mr Speaker: …the hon. Deputy Minister should withdraw the word.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, most obliged. I withdraw the word.

Mr Mubika: Salamander.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I want to state that this Government is, indeed, extremely serious. The division is also serious about issues of capacity building and co-ordination with other stakeholders in ensuring that we sensitise the public and encourage as many women as possible to contest parliamentary and local government elections. Just in the recent past, the division supported the Zambia National Women’s Lobby Group, which is an affiliate member of Non-governmental Organisations Co-ordinating Council (NGOCC), in lobbying for and launching the campaign for the fifty-fifty representation of women in decision-making positions.

Mr Speaker, I also want to state that it is the responsibility of every Zambian citizen and, indeed, political parties which are represented in this House to ensure that more women are adopted to stand in parliamentary elections. I want to inform the hon. Member for Luapula that we are, actually, very hard working as a division and we shall continue to do what is needed to encourage more women to stand during elections.

I thank you, Sir.

_____

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICES (Emoluments) (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Constitutional Offices (Emoluments) Act, Chapter 263 of the Laws of Zambia provides for the salaries and allowances payable to the holders of offices to which Article 119 of the Constitution relates, namely, the Attorney-General, the Auditor-General, the Investigator-General, the Solicitor-General, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Secretary to the Cabinet.

Sir, it is necessary to amend the Act because, currently, in order to effect any changes to the salaries and allowances of the Constitutional office holders specified above, the Act must be amended.

Mr Speaker, the process of amending an Act of Parliament is lengthy. It is envisaged that the enactment of this Bill will avoid frequent amendments to the Act as it will empower the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to prescribe, by Statutory Instrument, the salaries and allowances to be paid to the specified constitutional office holders. By revising the provisions of this Act, it is envisaged that the process of determining and adjusting the salaries and allowances of the office holders to which this legislation applies will be simplified.

Mr Speaker, providing that the salaries and allowances payable to constitutional office holders will be prescribed by Statutory Instrument, will not take away parliamentary oversight in the process. As hon. Members of the august House know, every Statutory Instrument, pursuant to an Act of Parliament, is scrutinised by the Committee on Delegated Legislation to ensure that its provisions conform to the provisions of the enabling Act, thus, transparency will be maintained.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of the august House may wish to note that the proposal to have the salaries and allowances of constitutional office holders prescribed by Statutory Instrument is not a new measure as this august House has previously passed legislation authorising the emoluments of other Constitutional office holders, such as Judges, to be prescribed by Statutory Instrument.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I wish to continue by saying that until the salaries and allowances are adjusted by Statutory Instrument, the constitutional office holders specified will continue to receive the salaries and allowances payable to them before the commencement of the amendment Act.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and, I therefore, urge hon. Members of this august to support it.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! I see no indications or hear no further debate. The Vice-President may wind up debate on his Bill.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Members for their overwhelming support.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

THE PRESIDENTIAL EMOLUMENTS (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Presidential Emoluments Act, Chapter 261, of the Laws of Zambia provides for the salary and allowances payable to the President. This Bill seeks to amend the Act so as to empower the Minister of Finance and National Planning to prescribe, by Statutory Instrument, in consultation with the Standing Orders Committee of the National Assembly, the salary and allowances to be paid to the President.

Sir, currently, in order to effect any change to the salary and allowances payable to the President, the Act must be amended. The enactment of the Bill will avoid frequent amendments to the Act and will simplify the process of adjusting the salary and allowances payable to the President.

Mr Speaker, providing that the salary and allowances payable to the President be prescribed by Statutory Instrument will not take away Parliamentary oversight in the process as every Statutory Instrument passed will be scrutinised by the Committee on Delegated Legislation to ensure that its provisions conform to the provisions of the enabling Act.

Mr Speaker, in addition, transparency will be maintained as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will consult with the Standing Orders Committee of the National Assembly to determine the salary and allowances to be paid to the President.

Sir, until the salary and allowances are adjusted by Statutory Instrument, the President will continue to receive the salary and allowances payable to him before the commencement of the amendment Act.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and I urge hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: There being no further indication of debate, His Honour the Vice-President may wind up debate on his Bill.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Members for their usual support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.{mospagebreak}

THE MINISTERIAL AND PARLIAMENTARY OFFICES (Emoluments) (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Emoluments Act, Chapter 262 of the Laws of Zambia provides for the salaries and allowances payable to the Vice-President, the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, Cabinet Ministers, the Leader of the Opposition, the Chief Whip, the Deputy Chief Whip, Deputy Ministers, the Deputy Chairperson of Committees and Private Members of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, this Bill seeks to amend the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Emoluments Act so as to empower the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to prescribe, by Statutory Instrument, in consultation with the Standing Orders Committee of the National Assembly, the emoluments payable to holders of the offices specified above. This Bill seeks to remove the need for frequent amendments to the Act in order to revise the emoluments of ministerial and parliamentary office holders.

Mr Speaker, the Bill also makes provision for a nominated hon. Member of the National Assembly to receive, in lieu of a constituency allowance, an allowance calculated at such rate as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, in consultation with the Standing Orders Committee, may by Statutory Instrument prescribe.

Mr Speaker, Parliamentary oversight in the process of revising the emoluments of ministerial and parliamentary office holders will be maintained as every Statutory Instrument passed to revise the emoluments will be scrutinised by the Committee on Delegated Legislation to ensure that its provisions conform to the provisions of the enabling Act.

Sir, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and I urge hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: There being no further debate, His Honour, the Vice-President may wind up debate on his Bill.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Members for their overwhelming support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

THE ZAMBIA TANZANIA PIPELINE (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Tanzania Pipeline (Amendment) Bill, 2009 seeks to protect the Zambia Tanzania Pipeline property by giving it immunity from execution of judgment which may be obtained against the assets of Tanzania Zambia Mafuta Pipeline (TAZAMA) Limited.

Mr Speaker, this is essential because the assets are vital for the economic well-being of this country. The national interest that the pipeline serves is far greater than the individual interest of any single organisation or person that may wish to force an order of judgment on the assets of the company.

Mr Speaker, the oil pipeline and other related assets that are managed by TAZAMA Pipeline Company are national assets of strategic and economic significance to the country. These assets of TAZAMA Pipeline Limited are critical as the pipeline is the most cost-effective, safest and efficient means of importing Zambia’s crude oil requirements from the sea into the country. It is important to amend the Act in order to ensure that the assets are not vulnerable to seizures.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the current Act does not have any provisions for the protection of the assets from anyone enforcing order of judgment on the assets of the company.

Similar provisions have been enacted on Section 10 of the National Health Services Act number 22 of 1995 and amendment Act number 9 of 2004 to protect the assets of hospitals and city councils.

Furthermore, other strategic institutions such as the University of Zambia, TAZARA and the Bank of Zambia are protected from warrants of execution through their respective Acts.

Mr Speaker, this kind of protection does not mean that such institutions are immune from paying their debts. They are still obliged to pay their debts from their revenues. The immunity only extends to the protection of their property from seizure.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is not controversial.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Konga: I, therefore, urge this august House to give the Bill overwhelming support.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I was a little nervous that your eye was not placed on me.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to brief this august House, on behalf of your Committee, on issues pertaining to the Zambia Tanzania Pipeline (Amendment) Bill, 2009, which was referred to your Committee on Wednesday, 15th July, 2009 for scrutiny.

Mr Speaker, in considering the Zambia Tanzania Pipeline (Amendment) Bill, your committee consulted various stakeholders that included organisations from the petroleum sector as well as Government wings. I trust that the hon. Members will find this report useful as they debate this Bill.

Your committee invited stakeholders to make both written and oral submissions before them. These stakeholders submitted views both for and against the proposed Amendment Bill which are recorded in your committee’s report for the consideration of the hon. Member of this House as they debate the Bill. Sir, allow me to briefly highlight some of the very pertinent issues that were raised during our interaction with the witnesses of stakeholders.

Sir, the Zambia Tanzania Pipeline (Amendment) Bill, 2009 seeks to provide the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta Pipeline Limited commonly referred to as TAZAMA with immunity from execution against court judgments for its assets. The Bill seeks to amend the Zambia Tanzania Pipeline Act Cap. 455 of the Laws of Zambia by the insertion in the appropriate place of a clause which will grant TAZAMA immunity from execution of judgements against it and the company assets.

Mr Speaker, your committee received two opposing views on the implications and ramifications of enactment of this Bill into law. On one hand, the stakeholders argued that TAZAMA is a commercial enterprise registered under an Act of Parliament under the Companies Act Cap. 388 of the Laws of Zambia and whose business relations must, therefore, be conducted in accordance with the law that governs all commercial enterprises.

Mr Speaker, some stakeholders were of the opinion that granting TAZAMA immunity would grant it very unfair protection and undue commercial advantages. The reasons under pinning reasoning was that TAZAMA is a national asset with national responsibilities and must not be subjected to undue protection even where there is evidence of recklessness, irresponsibility, inertia and, indeed, inefficiency on the part of the employees at any given time.

Mr Speaker, also, stakeholders argued that such protection would, most likely, breed a culture of incompetence, impunity and gross irresponsibility in its workforce. Examples have been given by the hon. Minister when he cited the councils, University of Zambia (UNZA) and TAZARA. These few examples are clear manifestation of how efficiency diminishes as a result of enacting such a law. They also argued that the enactment of this law would diminish the much encouraged PPP by this Government because no one will, actually, be interested to work with the company that has got such insulation.

Mr Speaker, the laws of Zambia and rules of business relations must be conducted in accordance with the law that governs all commercial enterprises.

Sir, on the other hand, the views in support of the Bill were that Zambia is a landlocked country and the pipeline related infrastructure are strategic and economically significant and remain the most viable cost effective means of transportation of crude as the hon. Minister clearly stated. Therefore, subjecting the assets of this company to court executions and judgements will cripple the company and also the Zambian economy.

Mr Speaker, your committee wish to state that although they are in support of this Bill, the given views by the stakeholders opposed to the Bill raised some very pertinent issues which could be given serious consideration by the Executive and the House. They, therefore, wish to strongly recommend that given the precarious situation that the committee found themselves in, the immunity is extended to, only, the strategic assets of TAZAMA, which include the pipeline, pump stations and tank farm.

Sir, your committee find it very unreasonable and ultra vires to allow the protection of all TAZAMA assets which include motor vehicles, furniture even buildings as the Bill seeks to achieve in its current proposed form.

In conclusion, allow me to express gratitude to you, Sir, and the witnesses who made submissions before your committee.

Finally, I wish to thank members of your committee and the Office of Clerk for the dedication to duty that they displayed during the sittings.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for allowing me to present this report on behalf of your committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this important Bill.

Mr Speaker, according to me, this Bill seems to be biased in the sense that you cannot have protection only offered to one company. Why should you offer insulation to TAZAMA? Why can you not offer the same to Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO)? ZESCO and ZAMTEL have massive installation. Therefore, we would have offered that protection as well to them. It is for this reason that I am saying opposing this Bill because ZESCO has also got some strategic installation. Why have we not done that to ZESCO? It is for this reason that I am opposing this Bill. TAZAMA is a registered company like any other company registered under the Company Act Cap. 388. It is for this reason that it is supposed to abide by the rules of the game. When TAZAMA is in the business world, it is supposed to abide by the rules that exist there. Therefore, we cannot be offering insulation to a single company because it will be very difficult for it to operate in future.

Mr Speaker, when it comes to TAZAMA, we are talking about 1,710 km pipeline which has got varying diameters from eight to twelve inches. I know about that. The single point moraine which you are talking about is cheaper in Dar-Es-Salaam. We know all those installations, which we visited and saw that they require massive rehabilitation. Since they require massive rehabilitation, it is important that we make that company attractive in the business world if other companies have to trade with it. Without doing that, it will be difficult for proper contractors to come and do business with TAZAMA. At the end of the day, we are not doing justice to this company.

The company was constructed in 1968 using tax payer’s money. Therefore, it is for this reason that we should not even offer any insulation. We should be able to put things right so that management is able to perform like any other business. What is being hidden that we do not know? If there is something which we do not know, I would like to urge the Executive to bring it out so that we know exactly what it is. Otherwise, at this time and what I have seen in the Bill, it is not wise to go in that direction. I am not going to support the Bill because it will make TAZAMA very unattractive unless something is brought out of it.

Sir, I also know this company does not only operate in Zambia, but in Tanzania as well. What is the Tanzanian Government doing about it? Is it also doing the same? If we are only going to insulate this company in Zambia while nothing is being done about it in Tanzania, then, we are wasting our time.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the mover of this good report.

Mr Speaker, TAZAMA is a Government asset.

History has it that councils around the country lost a lot of property because the assets were not protected from seizure. The only people who benefit from this kind of view that is prevailing are the people who are auctioneers, bailiffs and lawyers.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I do not know whether the hon. Member would want to see a situation where council property such as graders, front head loaders and bowsers were seized and sold off at give away prices. Hence the reasons we have got difficulties in the maintenance of roads in this country.

Sir, I do not think the law intends to prohibit anybody from going to court and get monetary compensation. However, what we are trying to protect are national assets because to replace them is much more difficult. I am sure you understand what happens when a bailiff sells an item, they sell it to recover what is owed. They are not interested in its market value. Are you sure we will do ourselves justice by denying the protection of these assets that are so vital to this republic? Why is it that whenever there is a good piece of legislation which comes, you want to attach a hidden meaning to it? The law cannot have a hidden meaning. The law is clear. If the law says we are going to protect assets there should be no hidden meaning to it unless you want to interpret it from your perspective.

Mr Speaker, is it fair that a hon. Member can stand up to say that we should not protect the assets of this republic, and yet these assets do not belong to individuals, but to all of us and our future generation.

This is a straightforward law which must be supported. Those who want to insist may have hidden agendas because you do not know who would have sued TAZAMA. By putting up this law, they know that they will be disadvantaged.

Sir, I urge this august House to protect the assets of the republic from those who would want to benefit by …

Mr Mabenga: The vultures!

Mr Mulongoti: … behaving as if they are supporting company law. Company law is there, but what are we talking about? We are talking about national assets. Does it mean we, as a republic, should have no interest or protect our own assets?

Those of us who are speaking, today, must be mindful of the fact these laws that we are putting in place to protect our assets, must ensure that we requite something to our children. If we leave it open, somebody will go to court and at the end of the day will win the case and take over TAZAMA Pipelines. Where are we going to be as a country? In whose interest are we going to do that? We must ensure that we protect those assets that are strategic.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I urge honest hon. Members of this House to support this Bill in total unless they have got hidden agendas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to indicate that I am a Member of your Committee that has made a very progressive recommendation to amend the Act.

Sir, in our considered view, your Committee has had no agenda whatsoever in making this very progressive recommendation in the interest of TAZAMA itself.

Hon. Member: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the arguments that have been made on the Floor of this House by Hon. Mulongoti are not tenable. Actually, he knows that there is no law that talks about compulsory compensation in this country if there is no judgement.

Sir, what we are talking about as a Committee is that we should protect the assets of TAZAMA. However, we are recommending that only the core assets of TAZAMA must be protected. We are not agreeing that even tissue paper that belongs to TAZAMA must be protected by law.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, TAZAMA is a commercial entity that should operate within the confines of commercial activity.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If you insulate TAZAMA in totality as the Bill is trying to portray, you will be harming its commercial interest. Any commercial entity that is willing to deal with TAZAMA will feel constrained.

Sir, we have heard the reasons pertaining to the insulation of councils. We should not behave like ostriches in this House. We should realise that we did a lot of harm to councils by passing that law. There are no viable institutions that would want to deal with councils or lend them money in Zambia because of that provision.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There is none. They know that even if they get judgement in court, it will merely be an academic exercise. Even that provision which says, “The council shall pay from its revenue” does not work. How do you compel the council to pay from its revenue? How do you compel UNZA to pay from its revenue? We are aware of maligns obtaining at UNZA as a result of that particular clause. We are not saying certain institutions must be protected, but there must be exceptions. That is why we are proposing that it is only the pipeline and the other core assets that must be protected. Why should you be protecting catalysts for TAZAMA?

Mr Speaker, let us be seen to be prudent in the management of the affairs of our own organisations.

Mr Speaker, in other civilised countries, for example, Botswana, if one gains judgement against the government and the government does not pay within six months, this peron has the right to levy execution. It is there! However, we are not advancing those views, here, because we have not reached that level. All that we are saying is that we should protect the core assets.

In our view, our recommendation is progressive because it is in the interest of the nation and TAZAMA. Therefore, I would urge Hon. Mulongoti, who is a student law, to critically look at this issue and support the recommendations of the Committee because it is in the interest of TAZAMA.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Bill on the Floor and support the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development on his proposals to the House.

Sir, from the onset, I wish to state that I was the architect of ensuring that council property was not sold when I was Secretary-General of the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: It never came from the Government.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: I saw it myself when I was Secretary-General of UPND.

The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will agree with me that Kasempa District Council’s property was going to be sold off within twelve hours. Fortunately, when I discussed my intentions of protecting the council’s property with my former leader who is late now, he told me that I was doing the right thing. I saw Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, who is a lawyer, about this and that is how the council survived. On that day, the hon. Minister of foreign Affairs will agree, people had gone with trunks to buyoff everything that belonged to the council.

Mr Pande: Yes!

Mr Tetamashimba: Now, we are being told that the hon. Minister is trying to insulate tissues.

Laughter

Dr Scott: Yes!

Mr Tetamashimba: That is not the correct position.

Mr Mukanga: He is a bailiff!

Mr Tetamashimba: I am sure that even those who refuted that this was a good law should have been lawyers because they wanted to make money out of it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is not that the Government wants to protect this property for it’s own gain because it is not the Government’s property, but it belongs to the Zambian people. We are just a Government which is there as at now and God will choose another one. Therefore, we are protecting the property for the Zambian people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is tax-payers money which was used to make sure that TAZAMA was erected. I see no reason the hon. Members would like to juggle with words in the law so that the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development puts exemptions on how things should be done.

Mr Speaker, even if he said, vehicles should not be exempted, if a bailiff came and sold all the vehicles, what can TAZAMA do? They will do nothing, but stop operating. In Tanzania, our friends are having the same discussions. We are not doing something that is out of the blues. TAZAMA is a property of two countries and, therefore, we have to protect the property here in Zambia just like our friends are doing in Tanzania. We have offices and other things which we own jointly with the Tanzanians. I appeal to hon. Members on your left to first look at the interests of the Zambians who are the owners of these properties and not the interests of the Government which is just a custodian. How would the Zambians, who are the owners of the property feel, if their own property was sold, even if it just means selling a vehicle? The Zambians who are the owners would not feel nice. After they pay a lot of tax, a vehicle is bought and the following day, a lawyer comes around and gets a ruling that the vehicle should be sold, how would you feel as a taxpayer?

Mr Speaker, I urge hon. Members on your left to support the Bill because I know that those on your right are geared to protect the property of the Zambian people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I heard an hon. Member talking about ZESCO and Zamtel, I see no problem in a law coming up to protect these institutions. Under the PPP policy, if a person wants to make an investment, he or she must be sure that the money he is investing will not be taken away by a lawyer who has sued that company. That is the first thing an investor would be happy to see and not dealings with contractors and so on. An investor is interested to see how his or her money is going to be protected. With this law that the hon. Minister has brought to this House will also encourage investors to start businesses because now they will be comfortable that when they invest their money in a business, nobody will come from nowhere to take away what they have invested and, therefore, their investment will last. So, I am appealing to my colleagues on your left and I know, Hon. Dr Guy Scott is saying this is a very good law.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I know my colleagues on your left will not go to the extent of dividing because the people out there will be interested to know which people want the property which they bought to be sold. We were sent here by people who voted for us and we must speak their language and protect their property. We should not stand against this law because we have the interests of a client who can sue a company and then we can use that judgement to make money. We are not being fair to the nation.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: His Honour the Vice-President is not practicing and I am sure Hon. Jack Mwiimbu knows that.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I would like to tell my colleagues on the left that when I was with Mwana Mubotu Mazoka, he…

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … supported me in what I did regarding Kasempa District Council. You cannot change your position now that he is not alive.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Therefore, you must continue with his vision and not to be in the same bed with people who hated Mazoka.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, this is an interesting Bill, but it is important to put certain issues in perspective. TAZAMA was started in 1968. That is forty-one years ago and it has been operating all these years without protection.

Mr Speaker, today, we have come up with this law to try to insulate it. What has happened? What is the difference between what has been happening in the past forty-one years and what is happening now? It is being stated from your report by those who appeared before the Committee, especially the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development that this is a strategic asset which ought to be protected. I agree that it is and I have, personally, travelled the length of that pipeline, the 1,710km from Ndola passing through the seven pump stations, all the way to the tank farm up to the single point mooring and so I am familiar with this pipeline. It is, indeed, a strategic asset, but we do have other strategic assets in this country like the Bank of Zambia, Parliament, the University of Zambia and even the mines when they were operated by a parastatal, Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). We never passed this type of law to protect them.

Mr Speaker, perhaps, what is missing in the hon. Minister’s statement is what has, at this time, precipitated us to try to protect this institution in this manner. I am aware, like Hon. Tetamashimba and Hon. Mulongoti have said that we have protected the councils. It is true, but the reason we did this, as we all know, is because the councils have not been very well managed. It is not a secret, they are inefficiently managed for a variety of reasons. Even when you give them a tavern to run and you provide fridges and everything needed, they will still run it at a loss. When the same tavern is given to an ordinary person, profits will be made. We know that there are problems, but in order for these institutions not to go under, we decided to, somehow, protect them and even that law is controversial. If we say we are going to protect TAZAMA in this manner, what has gone wrong? Are we trying to institutionalise and legalise inefficiency and incompetence? I have problems with this kind of approach. If the Executive feels that it is extremely necessary to protect this institution, then I would probably go the midway point which is the one suggested by your Committee. We are saying, we should not touch the pipeline, the seven pumping stations, two of which are in Zambia and five in Tanzania, including the strategic institutions. It is very difficult to do this, otherwise we may as well pass a law to protect the assets of the National Assembly, so that if it owes…

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I am getting worried with the hon. Member who is suggesting that we should pass a law to protect the National Assembly from seizure. Is he in order to suggest that the National Assembly can be seized when we have the State Proceedings Act which protects State property, generally. Is he in order to mislead the nation in that fashion?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Luapula is not in order. May he continue.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged. The point I am trying to make is that we have a lot of important strategic institutions and assets in the country and we have not passed laws to try to protect them and I have named some of them. Now, if you are beginning to pass a law like this, there are must be something that has gone wrong. Is a seizure eminent in some companies? Is there a vulture somewhere waiting to pounce on the assets of TAZAMA? Why have we not protected Indeni, it is also extremely important and we have some shares there. We should only pass the law when adequate explanations are given why suddenly after forty-one years, we have decided to do so. I am worried of this. That is why I would go along with your Committee’s proposal that we limit this protection to those important strategic assets. Otherwise, we are going to encourage incompetence, intransigence and impunity because we know that this organisation cannot be dealt with if it owes. So, if we begin to do that it becomes very difficult for people to trade with these institutions. For example, engineering companies would be scared to supply services and materials to maintain the pipelines or pump stations because they might think that it will be very difficult for them to collect their money.

My debate is not being malicious, but is just opening our eyes to the facts because for forty-one years we have not done this. Why today?

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Has he concluded his contribution already?

Hon. Members: No.

Mr Speaker: Not yet.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to debate on this Bill and I will be very brief. I want to start by quoting what your Committee said:

“Your committee, therefore, wish to state that they are in support of the Bill with the caution that in a purely commercial world, such a Bill would be viewed as utopian.”

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Mr Speaker, the Committee supports the Bill despite what they have written and I also want to state that I support it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Why? In this country people have been crying and are still crying regarding the manner companies were privatised. As ZAMTEL is about to be privatised, we know what has been going on around the circles. This time around, we are talking about not protecting the interest of Government, but the Zambian people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Now, what is the core business of TAZAMA? The core business of TAZAMA is to transport crude oil from Dar-es-salam into Zambia. Anything else is just added to its operations in order to make its work easier. Now, when we say we want certain properties or equipment to be protected, what kind of equipment are we talking about? What is it that they have that we want to be protected? Would it be that we want to protect things such as tissues which I have heard being confiscated.

Laughter

Mr Munaile: However, Mr Speaker, TAZAMA pipe line must be protected for the sake of the future generations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: It does not matter whether for forty-one years this has not been done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Change is inevitable and we need to move with time. TAZAMA Pipeline is a commercial entity, as it has been stated and I have no problem with that, but any bank wants to do business with a company that will give them something in return. If those companies that provide services to TAZAMA realise that the company does not meet the requirements that they are looking for, they will not give it business. Is it our worry? Most of us here, today, have been victims of bailiffs. How did we feel to replace those things that were taken by bailiffs? They take you backwards, and yet you want to move forward.

Mr Speaker, given such a scenario, I am saying those Zambians who have the interest of this country at heart must begin to see that time has come not simply to politic, but to look at issues as they are.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear1

Mr Munaile: Therefore, Mr Speaker, if your Committee is in support of this Bill and their biggest worry is simply the companies that are dealing with TAZAMA, I want to believe that when the company is protected, the workers will work hard because they will know that for them to make money or do business with other companies they have to work hard and very few companies will want to deal with them on credit basis. So, they will have to make money in order for them to do business.

Mr Speaker, my submission this morning is that we need to begin to look at Zambian companies and being Zambian. There are people here who are proponents of de-zambianising the companies that were privatised. There are people out there who want it to be the other way round and that is to re-nationalise those companies, and yet most Zambians have no jobs because people who were given those companies were not interested in their welfare.

Mr Milupi: Tell them.

Mr Munaile: Mr Speaker, for that reason, all I am saying is that we need to utilise the little that we have and TAZAMA is one of the few companies that we have. We do not want people to just come and take things and at the end of the day enrich very few people. My appeal to the hon. Members is that we should protect our companies because if we do not look at issues objectively, tomorrow, we will be amazed that some companies will seize the same company we are trying to protect if we do not protect it.

Mr Speaker, the commercial part of it should not be a hindrance because it can be taken care of by the management of TAZAMA. For now, we need to protect this company.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka): Thank you, Mr Speaker, I will just cover one or two matters which have not been covered by other hon. Members who have spoken. This morning during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, His Honour the Vice-President talked very grandly of Zambia’s credit rating as part of the formula for getting rid of aid dependency. Now, your credit rating, as a country, is based upon your performance and track record. With such controversial matters as litigation from people who have lent you money and are trying to get it back, if you are going to be, I do not know whether it is a parliamentary word, tricky or devious…

Mr Speaker: It is not.

Dr Scott: Devious also, Sir.

Mr Speaker: No, it is not.

Dr Scott: If you are going to have difficulties with recovering …

Hon. Government Members: Withdraw.

Dr Scott: I withdraw those words and replace them with not entirely co-operative in the enforcement of court judgements by using Parliament Sessions to cut across the legal process on an ad hoc basis. The Vice-President should believe me that the credit rating of Zambia will plummet like a rock. That is the way credit ratings work, they fall very easily, especially for third world countries and they climb very slowly.

I concur with hon. Members that said the hon. Minister has not been entirely transparent with us. Why has this issue over this company, suddenly, arisen? Has TAZAMA been found in default of some obligation by the courts? If so, by which courts and how is our Government in agreement with the findings of those courts? In which case, as the 100 per cent shareholder, the Government should move in to settle the monies that the company owes. We have heard nothing about such issues. We have heard nothing of what the Government’s obligation is in this matter or of what TAZAMA has done that renders it vulnerable it be having attachments.

We have simply been told in theory, in some general way, that there are some strategic assets that need to be protected, but that is not sufficient. I would like to believe that this House needs to be fully informed on the circumstances that have impelled the Executive to come here to try and get us to pass this legislation. I am not even sure that I agree, wholeheartedly, with the compromise that your Committee has tried to make because I feel we certainly do not have sufficient information in the report.

So, I would urge the hon. Minister to withdraw this Bill …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Dr Scott: …in the interest of the credit rating and general image of Zambia in the world. I want to emphasise that I am not talking about the credit rating of TAZAMA, but that of Zambia. The hon. Minister has not been transparent for us to know the circumstances prevailing with regard to this company. If one parastatal is protected in this fashion, then any other parastatal can also be protected as, indeed, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has suggested. This is going to cut our lifelines to various sources of credit and I can assure the Vice-President that that is the case.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Members who have spoken, especially those who have supported the Bill on the Floor of the House. In winding up debate, I would like to reiterate that TAZAMA Pipeline and related infrastructure are of immense economic significance to the nation of Zambia and not the Government. As it has been said by various speakers, it remains the most viable and cost effective means of transporting petroleum feedstock and other oil-related products into Zambia. These products account for 30 per cent of the energy required to develop this country.

Therefore, in proposing this Bill, the Executive is not saying that it wants to protect this asset like any other. This is a very critical asset. There is nothing mysterious about this move, as it has been alluded to. Most Zambians probably do not buy insurance but for those who do, they do not do so after their house has burned up or has been burgled. One has to protect assets before the worst happens. Notwithstanding the fact that for forty-one years these assets have not been protected, we are not going to say we should not do it now. The Government is alive to the fact that change is constant. The circumstances that obtained in the last forty-one years are not the same circumstances that are obtaining now. There are a lot of people with various ulterior motives who would just like to gain from this company. They will even connive with legal experts and crooked minds to try and just pounce on public assets.

Dr Scott: On point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister speaking on the Floor now in order to be implying or imputing hidden motives on hon. Members of this House that they are not debating in the interest of their constituents and the people of Zambia?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The point of order that has been raised by the hon. Member for Lusaka Central is valid. Hon. Members of this House are free to debate their conscious and the conscious of those whom they represent. Accordingly, the hon. Minister will withdraw the phrase ‘crooked minds’ as it is unparliamentary and then he will proceed.

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged. The phrase ‘crooked minds’ is withdrawn.

Mr Lubinda: And apologise.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, in winding up debate on this Bill, I would like to thank the hon. Members that have supported this Bill. I unreservedly request and appeal to all hon. Members, that in the interest of this nation, this Bill be supported.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 4th August, 2006.

REPORT STAGE

The Zambia Law Development Commission (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (Amendment) Bill, 2009

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

__________

The House adjourned at 1205 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

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