Debates- Tuesday, 4th August, 2009

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Tuesday, 4th August, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Dr Kalombo Mwansa, MP, Minister of Defence, will act as Leader of Government Business in the House today, Tuesday, 4th August, 2009.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




406. Mr Matongo (Pemba) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

(a) in view of the shift from political to economic diplomacy, what measures had been taken to ensure that Zambia’s missions had a full complement of qualified staff in the economic field;

(b) what the academic qualifications of the current staff in Zambia’s missions in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region at the following staff levels were:

(i) Deputy Head of Mission;

(ii) First Secretary; and

(iii) Trade or Education Attaché; and

(c) what the academic qualifications of the current staff in the following Zambia’s economic missions were:

(i) Tokyo;

(ii) Brussels;

(iii) New York; and

(iv) Addis Ababa.
The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Professor Phiri): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that my ministry, in the last two years, has obliged to the Government’s policy on recruitment and placement under the Public Service Reform Programme (PSRP) through which it has been recruiting highly qualified personnel in the field of economics to take up the challenges in our missions abroad in order to promote trade and attract investment in sectors such as tourism, agriculture and mining.

Economists, being professionals, have been assigned economic and trade positions. The ministry has considered qualified personnel not only in the economic and trade fields, but also in economic diplomacy in general. My ministry, through the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies (ZIDIS), is training diplomats, not only economists and trade attachés, but also other officers, in various fields to enable them execute their duties efficiently and uphold Zambia’s interests abroad.

Generally, the Government, through my ministry, has ensured that Zambia’s missions abroad have mostly qualified staff, particularly economists, in order to realise the shift from political to economic diplomacy.

Mr Speaker, I have prepared a list of diplomats in Zambia’s missions in the SADC region with their academic and professional qualifications. These are at the level of Deputy Head of Mission and First Secretaries for Trade and Economic Affairs. The House will, however, note that, currently, there is no Zambian mission in the SADC region with the position of Education Attaché.

Sir, the qualifications of Deputy Heads of Mission and First Secretaries, Economic and Trade Affairs ,in the SADC region are as follows:


Name     Position   Professional and Academic 

Mr Patrick Ngoma Deputy High Milling Technology
   Commissioner Certificate

Mr Sunday Chikoti First Secretary Diploma in Political 
   (Economic) Economy


Mr Mosese Mbumba  Deputy High   BA–Business Administration

Ms Namakau Akapelwa First Secretary  BA Economics and 
   (Economic) Masters in Development 


Mr Eddie C. Kasukumya Counsellor/ Bachelor of Engineering in 
     Deputy Head of   Electrical and Electronic
  Mission Engineering

Vacant First Secretary
 (Economic) -


Mr Mike Banda Counsellor/ Accounts Intermediate
 Deputy Head of

Mr Joseph Chanda First Secretary  BA Economics and 
 (Economic and  Masters in    Trade) Development Studies


Mr Paul Katema   Deputy High  Insurance Certificate

There is no position of Economist at First Secretary level in Lilongwe.


Mr Elijah Chisanga  Counsellor/Deputy BA Business 
    Head of Mission  Administration

Mr Oscar Sichimba  First Secretary  BA Business 
     (Economic)  Administration
        and Accountancy
Masters in

Brigadier-General Moses Deputy High Commissioner Military Training

Mike E. Mposha  First Secretary   Certificate in
    (Economic)  Purchasing and


Mr Emmanuel Kasanga Deputy High Commissioner  BA Economics and 
Masters in International and Development Studies.

Mr Mukela Mutukwa  First Secretary  BA Economics


Mrs Felicity N. Chulu  Deputy High   Diploma in State and 
     Commissioner  Performance Auditing

Mrs Nyeji R. Chilembo  First Secretary  BA in Economics and 
(Economic)                         Masters Development Finance

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Highly qualified!

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, with regard to the positions of Trade and Education Attachés, there is no establishment in all the missions in the SADC region, at the moment, for the following reasons:
(a) matters associated with trade in the SADC region are currently undertaken by First Secretary Economic or Economic Attachés;

(b) The establishment for Education Attachés is non-existent, at the moment, because the region has a minimal student population of Zambians although we wish to acknowledge that, recently, Zambian students have increased steadily at the University of Namibia, Windhoek.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the academic qualifications of current staff in the following economic missions namely; Tokyo, Brussels, New York and Addis Ababa, I wish to state as follows:


Name   Position  Academic and Professional 

Dr Mbikusita Wamundila  Ambassador  Bachelor of Science – 
Lewanika      Mathematics
Masters of Science – 
       PhD in Mineral Economics

Mr Kennedy Shepande  Counsellor/  Bachelor of Laws (LLB) 
    Deputy Head of  BA Education

Mr S. Mundanda   First Secretary  Certificate in Management
    (Economic/Trade) Certificate in Book-keeping 
       MA in Economics

Mr Jetty Mweemba  First Secretary  Not available
    (Political) Office of
    the President

Vacant    First Secretary 

Vacant    First Secretary

Ms L. S. Mubu   First Secretary  Accounting Technicians 
    (Accounts)  Diploma (ATD)

Ms Ireen Mulenga  Third Secretary   120/60 Short Hand and 
    (Personal Secretary)  Typing
 Diploma in Computer 
        Diploma in Diplomacy


Mrs Sheila Siwela  Ambassador  Diploma (Social Work) and
BA and MA (Human Resource      Development)

Mrs Anne Luzongo  Minister/ Counsellor   MSC Business Marketing
Mtamboh      BA Economics
       Post Graduate Diploma in 

Ms Georgina Chanda  Counsellor  Certificate in Teaching
Mutale    (Political/  Various Accounting Courses

Mr Elesani D. Njobvu  Counsellor  BA Economics

Col. John A. K. Chisanga  Counsellor  Military Training 
    (Defence)  Diploma in Purchasing and 
        Graduate Diploma in 
        Management Studies

Mr F. P. Chali   First Secretary  Not available
     Office of the 

Mr Samuel Ngoma  First Secretary   Diploma in Journalism

Mr Chris Mbewe   First Secretary   Certificate in Diplomacy
(Economic) Certificate in Political   
       BA International Relations

Vacant    First Secretary  
    (Political Administration)  

Ms Christine Mtonga  First Secretary   Accounting Technicians
    (Accounts)  Diploma (ATD)
       Post Graduate Diploma in 
       Financial Management

Vacant    First Secretary  

Mrs Y. M. Chileshe  First Secretary  BA Economics

Mrs Christine Mutemi  Second Secretary 120/65 Short Hand and 
Kabamba   (Personal Secretary)  Typing
       Certificate in Private 
        Secretaries Course

Vacant    Second Secretary

 New York

Mr Lazarus Kapambwe  Permanent   BA Political Science
    Representative  Certificate in International 
Mr Muyambo Sipangule  Minister /Counsellor BA Political Science and 
       Public Administration
       Post Graduate Diploma in 
       International Relations

Mr Brian Tembo   Counsellor  Not available 
     Office of the

Brigadier-General  Counsellor  Military Training
B. D. Kulima    (Defence)

Mrs Patricia Chisanga  Counsellor  BA, Post Graduate Diploma 
Kondolo    (Political/  (IR)
Administration)  Certificate (Diplomatic 
Mrs Ireen M. Tembo  Counsellor   BA Economics
     (Economic)  Masters in International 
Mr Bernard Kang’ombe  First Secretary  Bachelor of Laws (LLB)

Mr A. W. Lubundi  First Secretary   BA Public Administration
    (Social) yet to report Post Graduate Diploma in 

Moses S. Walubita  First Secretary  Diploma in Journalism

Mrs Ruth Mwila   First Secretary  Accounting Technicians 
   (Accounts)   Diploma (ATD)
       Elementary in Accounting 

Ms Rose Nsunge   Second Secretary  100/65 Short Hand and 
    (Personal Secretary) Typing
       Diploma in Computing

Vacant     Second Secretary

 Addis Ababa

Mr Albert Muchanga  Ambassador  BA Economics and 
       Business Administration
       MA in Economics

Mr Pola L. Kimena  Minister/Counsellor Master of Science 
        Post Graduate Diploma in 

Mr W. C. Musonda  Counsellor  Not available 
    (Political) Office 
     of the President

Mr Brian Nyirenda  Counsellor  BA Political Science
    (Political/  Post Graduate Diploma in
    Administration)  International Relations

Mr Robert Sanyikosa  Counsellor  BA Economics 
    (Economic)  MSC

Brigadier-General W.  Counsellor  Military Training
Lopa    (Defence)

Mrs Dorcas Chileshe  First Secretary  Diploma in Journalism

Mr Inyambo Liboma  First Secretary   Bachelor of laws (LLB)
    (Legal)    Certificate in International 

Vacant    First Secretary  

Mr Stephen Simasiku  Second Secretary  NATEC and CABS

Mrs Betina L. Zulu  Second Secretary  120/65 Short Hand and 
    (Personal Secretary)  Typing
        Certificate in Computer 
        Information Technology
         Computer Application for 
        Personal Secretary and Office 

 Vacant    Third Secretary 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the House may wish to note that it is the ministry’s desire to ensure that there is, at least, an economic officer in each of the missions abroad to ensure the success of our economic diplomacy.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Professor Phiri laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, evasion is the art of diplomacy and the question has been successfully evaded. Could the hon. Minister tell us why we should persistently have military trained people and Office of the President officers in our diplomatic missions in the SADC region and elsewhere when, in fact, we should be striving for regional integration by having people who understand the art of economic management and integration?

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Mr Speaker, our response specifically indicates that each and every mission has a qualified economist or somebody who understands economics or trade. Regarding the presence of military attachés in the missions, this does not happen in Zambian missions alone. Even the integration you are referring to includes military integration. There has to be integration of both the military and police. Therefore, it is not misplaced and peculiar to Zambia, but happens in all the other countries. This is a trend and these are the positions in most of the missions.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, looking at the qualifications of the people who are in these missions, may I find out whether all the career diplomats trained in the Third Republic have been deployed into the foreign service.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, that is a new question, but I will give him an answer. All those who were employed, except those who have retired or have been recalled for various reasons, are still in the diplomatic service.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, given the high calibre of staff in the Angolan Mission and the very low level of trade between Zambia and Angola, what is the ministry doing to improve the situation?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Chienge will be happy to hear that we are vigorously trying to increase trade between Zambia and Angola. Recently, less than a month ago, we had a joint-permanent commission (JPC) meeting. The Angolan team came to Zambia and we had very fruitful discussions. We hope that this, together with the follow-ups, will increase trade between Zambia and Angola.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s response, I did not quite hear whether there is a definitive educational qualification threshold attached to all the positions in our foreign missions. If there is, could he, please, define it?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, every position has a definitive description of the qualifications. However, since it is a new question, I cannot go through the hierarchy of the positions.

Mr Speaker, I can state, for a fact, that, as a ministry, we ensure that the people occupying these positions are able to perform their duties to our satisfaction. We are determined to have people who understand what they are doing and some of them have the experience which enables them to be appointed to these positions.

Mr Speaker, the bottom line is that the expectation of the ministry, which is that these people deliver in whatever capacity they are serving the country in these missions, is met.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, given the fact that Zambia has a propensity to use authority, you will often find that the advice of a person with the qualifications and background in economics in a mission is ignored because of his/ her position. What guarantee can the hon. Minister give that it is possible for his ministry to ensure that people with qualifications in economics are placed in positions related to economics rather than just being in a mission and being used by it?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, the fact that we post these people to missions mean that we expect them to perform certain duties. In missions where an economist is not looking after trade, he is able to share what he knows with those who do not have the knowledge.

Mr Speaker, it would be folly for us not to follow the advice of the people in the missions. That is why we send them there in the first place. There are times when there are conferences or meetings which require somebody from here. When we realise that we have somebody in the missions who can adequately represent us at these meetings, we authorise them to attend and give us feedback. Therefore, we will not ignore any advice from the qualified people in our missions.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the response from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs clearly indicates that we do have qualified staff in matters of trade and industry in the missions. However, if we take away copper from almost all our trade with our trading partners, Zambia would have a deficit. Could the hon. Minister indicate what measures are being taken to ensure that we turn these trade deficits into surpluses in our dealings with the outside world?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, if you look at the trade in copper, you will see that there are particular countries that depend on Zambian copper. As a result, in missions like India, Japan and China, we have people who are pushing for more purchases of copper from Zambia. We are well represented. Even though Zambia is not the only country that produces copper, its copper is very popular. We have people who are adequately representing us and working to see to it that the deficit is cut to the minimum.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.


407. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many rural health centres were earmarked for rehabilitation in 2009 in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) how many VIP toilets would be constructed at the  facilities above.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, there are no rural health centres earmarked for rehabilitation in Kanchibiya Constituency in 2009 because the constituency benefited a lot in 2008. Last year, five rural health centres namely; Mbati, Kabinga, Chiundaponde, Kopa and Muwele were funded under the Service Delivery Improvement Fund (SDIF). In addition, a health post was constructed at Chinkobo under the Poverty Reduction Project (PRP) fund and a rural health centre was constructed by World Vision International at Mapoma.

Mr Speaker, all the facilities in Kanchibiya Constituency that I have mentioned have adequate ventilated improved pit latrine (VIP) toilet facilities.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, most of these VIP toilets have collapsed, thus, posing a danger to the people using them. I would like to find out when the Ministry of Health intends to construct modern toilets in these health centres.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, if the facilities are in such a deplorable state that they cannot be used, temporary arrangements will be made as we source for money to construct new VIP facilities.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order! The House, on the left, will pay attention.


408. Mr Mwenya (Nkana) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) what the progression rate of students at the University of Zambia was, semester by semester;

(b) how many first year students were excluded from the university in the first semester in the 2008/2009 academic year; and

(c) how many of the students who failed to meet the progression limits proceeded to the second semester in the above academic year.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the progression rate is now 100 per cent because there are no promotion exams from one semester to another.

Mr Speaker, there was no progression exercise carried out after the first semester of the 2008/2009 academic year. Students proceeded to the second semester and all of them registered for their courses. Progression exercises for the two semesters will be done at the end of the second semester. This is a trial for reverting to having the progression exercise at the end of the academic year. The results of this exercise will be discussed by the senate and the way forward agreed upon.

Mr Speaker, all the students proceeded to the second semester of the 2008/2009 academic year.

I thank you, Sir.


409. Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when the construction of the following basic schools in Zambezi West Parliamentary Constituency would be completed:

(i) Matondo;

(ii) Milomboyi;

(iii) Kangulunga; and

(iv) Muswiza;

(b) what had caused the delay in completing the construction; and

(c) how much more money was needed to complete the construction.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the mentioned schools will be completed as indicated:

Name of School  Constituency   District  Response

Matondo Basic   Zambezi West  Zambezi  The school was completed         in December, 2008,and
 is now in use

Milomboyi Basic  Zambezi West  Zambezi  The construction works       were completed last year. 
       It is now at glazing stage

Kangulunga Basic Zambezi West  Zambezi  The school was completed School        in December, 2008, and is         now in use

Muswiza Basic  Zambezi West  Zambezi  The school was completed School         in December, 2008, and
 is now in use

Mr Speaker, the delay in completing the construction was due to the submersion of the bridge at the Kashiji River and the flooding of the Zambezi River.

The projects have since been completed and, hence, there is no more money needed.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what standards are used to determine whether a school has been completed or not because some of the schools that have been mentioned have not even been painted?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge the hon. Member of Parliament to visit his constituency…


Mr Sinyinda: … because, right now, we have information that all the schools have been completed.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


410. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Health how much it cost to train one nurse in Government training institutions in the following fields:

(i) enrolled nursing;

(ii) midwifery; and

(iii) registered nursing.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that the average cost to train one enrolled nurse at a Government institution is K8,500,000.00 per year. The average cost to train one midwife at a Government institution is K9,500,000.00 per year.

Mr Speaker, a three-year programme to train a registered nurse costs K8,500,000.00 per year.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would…

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, my point of order is short and simple. Article 129 of the Zambian Constitution states:

“A person shall not, while remaining a Chief, join or participate in partisan politics.”

Sir, I think that is brief, short and unambiguous.

Sir, the Daily Mail of yesterday, Monday, 3rd August, 2009, has a story which states that seven chiefs back MMD candidate.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Dr Scott:  Mr Speaker, it goes on to describe how unconstitutionally, in plain English,  seven Lala Chiefs of Serenje say they support Chitambo Constituency Parliamentary candidate,  Mr Solomon Musonda, and have appealed to their subjects to vote for him.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, this House needs to keep an eye on constitutionality. Your office, in particular, is bound. This is the law of this House and the supreme law of the land. I, therefore, wonder whether you would rule that His Honour the Vice-President is in order not to advise the chiefs, campaign teams and His Excellency the President that encouraging this type of behaviour is unconstitutional. I will lay the paper on the Table.

Dr Scott laid the paper on the Table.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Lusaka Central has raised a constitutional point of order. As the house has been advised before, matters dealing with the Constitution or religion are extremely tricky for this House. However, since the hon. Member refers to a story emanating from a campaign in a vacant constituency, that issue can be raised with the relevant committee. I understand there are conflict resolution committees in constituencies where there is a by-election. That would be the right venue. Beyond that, constitutional matters are dealt with by the High Court and the Supreme Court on appeal. That would be the venue. This House has played its role by enacting suitable legislation which should be applied by the other arms of the State like the Executive and the Judiciary.

The Hon. Member for Kantanshi was raising a supplementary question. May he continue.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated it costs the Government about K8.5 million to train both an enrolled and registered nurse while it costs K9 million to train a midwife. I would like to find out why the Government has gone into training midwives instead of registered or enrolled nurses which might have been cheaper.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to remind the hon. Member that, two weeks ago, we answered a question in this House regarding what the Government is doing to ensure that we meet the millennium development goals (MDGs). In fact, it was the hon. Member for Kantanshi who referred to MDGs five and six which relate to maternal health. The programme to fast-track the training of midwives is intended to address that problem.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s response indicates that different institutions require different amounts to train a nurse. Why is that so?

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, first of all, these are average figures.

Secondly, private and public institutions are two different institutions. Therefore, what is payable to these institutions varies.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Yes!


411. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) when the Zambia Postal Services Board would be appointed;

(b) how much money the Government released to the Zambia Postal Services Corporation from 2006 to 2008, year by year; and

(c) whether the company would be privatised and, if so, when.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, the appointment of the Zambia Postal Services Board will be done very soon. Letters to relevant professional institutions, as prescribed in the Postal Services Act of 1994, requesting them to make nominations of persons to serve on the board were written and responses are being awaited. The board will be appointed as soon as nominations are received.

Sir, the Government’s releases to the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZAMPOST) from 2006 to 2008, year by year, were as follows:

Year Amount

2006 K233,333,334.00

2007 K808,018,553.00

2008 K710,184,232.00

Mr Speaker, at the moment, the Government has no intentions of privatising ZAMPOST. This is because the Government has the obligation of providing a universal postal service to all the citizenry in the country regardless of their location. Due to the unprofitable nature of postal services, the Government is alive to the fact that the privatisation of ZAMPOST will result in the discontinuance of the provision of postal services to the rural areas as the rural markets may prove to be uneconomical to the private sector. That notwithstanding, the Government has embarked on a process of commercialising ZAMPOST in order to make its operations viable and responsive to the ever changing market trends.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, for the past two to three years, ZAMPOST has never had a board, but has been run by one man, Mr Jazzman Chikwakwa. One of the responsibilities of a board is to approve the audited accounts. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether this has been done for the past three years. Who has been approving the audited accounts?

Mr Mubika: Mr Speaker, I would like to correct the impression created by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili that ZAMPOST is run by one man. It is not Mr Chikwakwa alone who is on the board. There is also the Permanent Secretary at the ministry …

Mr D. Mwila: How many?

Mr Mubika: … and Mr James Banda. Therefore, we have a board in place.

Mr D. Mwila: How many?

Hon. Government Member: Do not answer him.

Mr Mubika: ZAMPOST was audited in the years that I have mentioned.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, in 2007, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, going by the rules of this House, no hon. Member must give false information to this House. It is a fact that ZAMPOST has not had a board for three years now. Is the hon. Minister in order to give false information on the Floor of this House? I need your serious ruling on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili who had asked the main question did listen to the answer to his question. However, he is now disputing the hon. Minister’s answer to his supplementary question which is: “Was there no board in the institution ZAMPOST?” The hon. Minister said that there were three members who, in his opinion, constitute a board. Since we have not gone very far in this question, the House would like to find out from either the substantive Minister of Communications and Transport or the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House what the actual position is.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, an answer has been given that the board constituted by three members has been active during the period that …


Professor Lungwangwa: … he has requested an answer for.


Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!


Mr D. Mwila: Takwaba!


Hon. Opposition Members rose.

Mr Speaker: Order! You may all resume your seats.

Just in this Chamber, we have Acts of Parliament that are passed in this Parliament. My attention, even as we transact business, may be drawn to what is provided in the Act of this organisation called Zambia Postal Services Corporation Board which I believe or assume is constituted under an Act of Parliament. When I have that information, I shall revert to this matter. I shall be interested in the quorum of the board. For the time being, the House will proceed.

The hon. Member for Mpika Central may continue.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, in 2007, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili wanted to know when a post office would be constructed in his constituency. Could I learn from the hon. Minister the current position on this matter?

Mr Speaker: I believe that refers to Question 411 or did we move on?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is a completely new question. If the hon. Member would like to know the specifics of what is happening in constituencies, he should submit a question and we shall provide a specific answer.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, some post offices were closed when the MMD came to power in 1991. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether they have any plans to re-open them because they were providing a service to the people, especially those in rural areas like Simango.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, our response on the direction we are taking, as a Government, has been very clear. We do recognise the importance of postal services in catering for the communication needs of our people, especially in the rural areas, and it is in this regard that we are concerned about developing new postal services in the areas that are not currently serviced.

As a matter of fact, the Postal Services Bill, which is before this House, does refer to this development.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that the Government would like to keep the postal services because they need to deliver services to the people …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is your question?

Mr L.J. Mulenga: Sir, I would like to find out the difference between ZAMTEL and ZAMPOST because they provide the same services.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, ZAMPOST deals in a number of postal services, including the delivery of letters and money orders to the communities. ZAMTEL does not deliver letters, but it does deliver e-mail, internet services and other modern information communication services like mobile phone services and, especially, the public switched telephone network (PSTN). These are the information communication technology services being provided by ZAMTEL as opposed to the postal services being provided by ZAMPOST.

However, we are interested, as a Government, in modernising ZAMPOST so that it can venture into the provision of other information communication services.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just disclosed that the Government has been releasing money to ZAMPOST since 2006. I would like to find out why people who retired from ZAMPOST have not been paid their money despite the Government releasing money to this organisation.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member, who is one of the old hon. Members in the House, should know that a question of that nature will solicit a valuable response if it is asked as a separate question because, then, we will be able to get to our records and see who has not been paid and who, when and how much has been paid. To expect me, at this point, to give him an informative answer is unfair.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


412. Dr Kalumba asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when the Government would establish a magistrates’ court in Chienge District.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to have a magistrates’ court in each district. Being a new district, Chienge is one of the very few districts with no magistrates’ court. The Government will construct a court and send a magistrate to Chienge on resident basis when funds are available. In the meantime, the magistrate based at Nchelenge will continue to circuit Chienge District on a quarterly basis or as the case load demands.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, given the rather familiar response to Chienge questions, when will the Government feel moved to establish a rational system of law and order institutions in Chienge in the absence of both a magistrates’ court and police station? Is there some way in which you can strengthen the law and order institutions in Chienge?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, as we have already stated, the Government is committed to establishing a magistrates’ court in every district, including Chienge, when funds are available.

The Government has taken measures by ensuring that a magistrate goes to Chienge to conduct court sessions. This means that issues of law and order are being attended to. However, with regard to physical infrastructure, as I have indicated, that is a matter which the Government is seriously looking at.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President aware that Lukulu District, which has a similar problem to Chienge, has, for over ten years now, had the magistrate conduct business in the council chamber? When the councillors are sitting, there is no court session and when the court session is going on, there is no council business going on. Is he aware of this?

Mr Speaker: Order! If the hon. Minister is generous or has an answer, he is free to give it.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, I can only thank the hon. Member for that information which we will investigate. If there is truth in it, we will know what to do.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, the problem that has been cited in the Chienge scenario is not only about the courts or infrastructure. Is the hon. Minister also considering other serious issues other than the buildings? These issues border on the human rights of people who are probably detained in small police cells. I do not know if they are even there. I also do not even know how these people are treated. 

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, that is definitely a new question. It needs to be submitted so that we can give a detailed rather than speculative answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Next Question. The hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Mr Nyirenda (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, the question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Speaker: I beg your pardon?

Mr Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, the question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Speaker: No, you have to ask it because it is on the Order Paper. Can you go ahead and ask.

Laughter {mospagebreak}


413. Mr Nyirenda asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the road from Kamfinsa Prison to the Ndola/Kitwe Dual Carriageway would be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, rehabilitation of the road between Kamfinsa Prison and the Ndola/Kitwe Dual Carriageway road was included in the package of the Copperbelt Province roads to be worked on under the programme of periodic maintenance of trunk, main and district roads by performance based contracts financed by the European Union (EU) and the Zambian Government respectively. The contract for the works was signed in 2006. However, due to the poor performance of the contractor, the contract was terminated in 2008. However, only three out of the five roads under this package were re-advertised and re-awarded due to inadequate funds in this year’s Budget.

The rehabilitation of the road between Kamfinsa Prison and the Ndola/Kitwe Dual Carriageway, commonly known as the Sakanya/Kamfinsa, was awarded to Messrs China Geo Engineering Corporation Southern Africa Limited at a contract sum of K14.2 billion. The works done on the road included bringing 4 kilometres to bituminous standard and the complete re-gravelling of 22.7 kilometres. The contract began on 4th April, 2009, and was supposed to last for four months, but works were completed on the 19th June, 2009. The contract, currently, is in the defects liability period.

I thank you, Sir.


414. Mrs Mwamba asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to facilitate the export of beef to the following:

(i) African countries; and

(ii) the European Community;

(b) whether there were any private companies in Zambia that had expressed interest in exporting beef and, if so, what their names were; and

(c) what measures had been taken to ensure that Zambian beef was of export quality in the face of corridor disease in various parts of the country.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, the Government is in the process of creating a disease free zone which should enhance quality systems such as fences, laboratory, surveillance, checkpoints and quarantine facilities and disease control to allow the country to export beef.

The country is disadvantaged by the presence of foot and mouth disease (FMD) in the Central, Southern, Western and Northern provinces, whereas contagious bovine pleuro-pneumonia (CBPP) is prevalent in the Western, North-Western and Southern provinces. These are all notifiable diseases. In order for the country to export, it has to show scientific and documentary evidence that these diseases are not in areas from which beef is coming. The Government has put in place programmes to contain and, eventually, eradicate these diseases.

Mr Speaker, currently, there are no companies that are exporting beef and the ministry is not aware of any would-be exporters yet.

Mr Speaker, the creation of a disease free zone will improve the quality of Zambian beef and enhance the ability and chance of Zambia, as a country, to export. A multi-sectoral and team work approach will go a long way in realising this goal.

Mr Speaker, it would be very helpful if, for instance, private companies took up the challenge of supplementing the Government’s efforts in the areas they are operating by providing extension services such as dipping and ensuring that their facilities meet international standards.

Mr Speaker, the Government provides extension services to farmers to improve their livestock husbandry and management practices in order to prevent and control management diseases like corridor disease. Other management diseases include anthrax, blackleg, anaplasmosis, babesiosis, rabies and newcastle to mention, but a few. Farmers are advised to dip their cattle regularly and vaccinate their calves.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from hon. Minister how soon the measures that he mentioned will be put in place. Can he give a time-frame, please?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, just last week, we had a stakeholders’ meeting where we tried to evaluate how well we are going to create disease free zones from which we can export beef. Not only that, as I speak, we have, also, managed to order about 400,000 doses of FMD vaccines so that as we create disease free zones, we also vaccinate animals in the areas with diseases. At the moment, these 400,000 doses of FMD vaccines are at the airport waiting to be cleared.

Mr Speaker, we also ordered 500,000 doses of CBPP vaccines and they have already gone to the Western and North-Western provinces for vaccinations to be conducted.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, given the list of diseases that the hon. Minister has mentioned as being predominant in areas that have traditionally been cattle rearing areas like in the South, is he making any efforts to diversify and, perhaps, focus on areas which are disease free such as the Northern, Luapula and Copperbelt provinces in order to improve our capacity to compete in the export of cattle.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, yes, I can confirm that diversification is under consideration and that is why, for the disease free zones, we have picked on the first three provinces which are the Copperbelt, Central and Lusaka provinces. The disease free zone may not be considered in the Northern and Luapula provinces because of the scarcity of a substantial animal population. What we want to do, first, is stock the provinces so that when they have enough animals, we can consider them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact that even with the existence of some diseases, you can export beef within Africa. What is the ministry doing to ensure that even with the existing number of cattle, we export beef through companies like ZAMBEEF Limited?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, last week, we called all the stakeholders in this industry so that we could find the way forward as we try to create the disease free zones. Any advice from those who have knowledge about how we can go about it is most welcome. They can come to our ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, problems regarding the control of cattle disease began shortly after independence when chiefs had their power taken away in order to enforce dipping regimes and so forth. Therefore, we have been struggling with this problem for forty-five years. Can the hon. Minister tell us what is going to make animal disease control work this time around when for three quarters of my life it has not?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. First and foremost, we have to differentiate between continuity and recurrence. What the hon. Member is talking about is the recurrence of cattle diseases. For example, between 1990 and 2000, swine fever was transmitted from Eastern Province to Lusaka by a piece of meat that was bought by a member of the public.

Mr Speaker, the management of animal diseases has changed because a lot of things that were not there previously have been introduced. For example, disease free zones have been created and there is a constant procurement of vaccines. There is now, also, the active involvement of various stakeholders. Furthermore, there is the creation of a ministry to deal with livestock and fisheries.  Therefore, with these measures, I think the livestock sector in the country is going to thrive more than before.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that a stakeholders’ meeting was held, last week, to discuss the issue of livestock in the country. I know that the meeting was called after the hon. Members, on your right, saw Hon. Mwamba’s question. I would like to know what was discussed in that meeting because as potential beef exporters, we want the Government to put this sector in order so that we can get involved. We are ready to export beef.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, before I come to what we discussed, I would like hon. Members and the country at large to know that there are two types of livestock diseases. There are diseases of economic importance as well as management diseases. Most times we have mixed up the two. People want the Government to control management diseases which are supposed to be controlled by the farmers themselves. The responsibility of the Government is to control the diseases of economic importance.

Mr Speaker, another aspect I would like the House and the nation at large to know is that diseases, for example, FMD originate from wild animals. That is why it always occurs in areas like Zambezi District where there are a lot of wild animals. The virus that causes this disease is transmitted from wild animals to livestock. This type of disease cannot be completely wiped out, but it can be controlled. Therefore, those are the things which hon. Members are supposed to know.

As regards what we discussed last week, the various stakeholders are yet to meet next week to complete the discussions. Therefore, I may pre-empt these discussions if I tell the House what they are about.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: There are still three hon. Members who would like to ask follow-up questions.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that ZAMBEEF Limited has an outlet in Ghana and, if so, whether the company is not exporting beef through that outlet.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, there is legal and illegal trading. When I was speaking earlier, I was talking about legal trading. If ZAMBEEF Limited is involved in illegal trading, the Government is not aware. If the hon. Member has information to that effect, she can bring it to us. However, I know that it is not only ZAMBEEF Limited trading in livestock. About five other companies in Western Province are doing the same.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, the hon. Member for Lukulu West is, actually, informing you that there is illegal business going on …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … between Zambia and Ghana, through ZAMBEEF Limited. That was free information.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the Government has not admitted failure in livestock disease management when Namibia, Botswana and South Africa have more wild animals than Zambia, and yet they are able to control animal diseases. May we know the truth about why the Government has failed? This country is now being exploited by ZAMBEEF Limited, especially in the Western and Southern provinces because farmers are compelled to sell their animals as carcasses. We need a proper answer.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Livestock and Fisheries) (Mr Machila): Mr Speaker, it is a matter of public knowledge, following a report of your Committee on Agriculture and Lands, that the issue of animal disease control has been challenging the country for some time. As a result of that report, the Government has undertaken to establish a ministry to deal, specifically, with issues relating to livestock and fisheries. In the process of discharging those functions under this ministry, we expect that the neglect that may have been the case in the past, with regard to these issues, will be addressed. Therefore, I think, the hon. Member is being very unfair to the Government with regards to this issue.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the Government has been implementing a cattle restocking exercise in the Southern Province, in order to supplement and reinforce this exercise, would it not have been prudent to have made the cattle disease free zone in this province so that the cattle restocking programme could be enhanced?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Mr Speaker, in recent times, the efforts that the Government has been making with regards to dealing with animal diseases in the Southern Province have resulted in a positive increase in the number of livestock from about 500,000 to in excess of 800,000 cattle. The issue that the hon. Member for Livingstone has raised with regards to the disease free zones is something that the ministry has been undertaking in consultation with various stakeholders. Preliminary proposals are that it would be prudent to establish the disease free zones in the provinces that the hon. Deputy Minister mentioned.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


415. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a) how much Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) money was received by the ministry for community development work from 2001 to 2002; and

(b) how much of the money at (a) was used for poverty alleviation through women’s clubs.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Muteteka): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services received a total of K96,168,000,000.00 of HIPC funds in 2001 and K15,000,000,000.00 in 2002.

Mr Speaker, the total amount of HIPC money received by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services in the two consecutive years was K111,168,000,000.00

Sir, the money used for poverty alleviation, through women’s clubs, amounted to K162,211,000.00

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the measurable performance indicators that were monitored to ensure that poverty alleviation was achieved and the levels at which it was achieved.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, there are various programmes under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and one of them is the monitoring exercise. We monitor the women’s clubs whose members have been trained under the entrepreneurship skills programme. After the women have been trained, the ministry funds their club. This has yielded a lot of positive results unlike before when women were empowered without being trained.

I thank you, Sir.


416. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)  when a police post or station would be opened at Katibunga Mission in Chief Mukungule’s area; and

(b)  when Mununga and Tazama police posts in Chief Mpumba’s area would be provided with motor vehicles for operations and other transport needs.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, it is the wish of the Government that Katibunga should have a police station to provide security to the area, but currently, the Government is constrained as resources are inadequate to embark on such an important project. However, the House may wish to know that the ministry is in the process of developing an infrastructure development action plan where police stations countrywide like Katibunga will be earmarked for the construction of modern police infrastructure.

The plan will serve as a tool for marshalling the resources needed to support the project and also as a road map to guide construction and rehabilitation works. To this effect, we are determining the type of structure to put up at Katibunga, costing the resources required and the time-frame for completion of construction works.

The distribution of vehicles to Mununga and Tazama police posts will be considered when vehicles are acquired. Though the Government has over the past five years improved the transport situation in the police service, it has been difficult to cover all police stations because of the limited resources. Normally, stations and posts with no transport are given priority when distributing vehicles when they have been acquired.

In the interim, the two police posts are being serviced by their mother station, Mpika Police-Tazara.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, in 2008, the former Inspector-General of Police, Mr Ephraim Mateyo, allocated two motorcycles to the two police posts in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency. I would like to find out what has happened since then because up to now, the police officers are waiting for the motorcycles.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, the commitment that was made by the former Inspector-General could not be finalised because the motorcycles were not purchased due to limited resources. Once we have the resources, we will definitely send you the motorcycles.

I thank you, Sir.


417. Dr Chishya (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)  how many community-based fingerling production centres had been established in Luapula Province since the year 2000;

(b)  to what extent the fingerling production centres at (a) were contributing to the fish restocking in the water bodies of Luapula Province; and

(c)  how much of the extension services the centres at (a) were receiving from the ministry.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, there are no community-based fingerling production centres in Luapula Province. There are only two Government fish farms namely; Fiyongoli Fish Farm in Mansa District and Mwenda Fish Farm in Mwense District.

Sir, since we do not have community-based fingerling production centres, the Government fish farms provide fingerlings for fish ponds in fish farms, weirs, reservoirs and dams and not for natural water bodies such as lakes, rivers and swamps.

Sir, (c) is not applicable as there are no community-based fingerling production centres. However, the ministry, through the Department of Fisheries, provides extension services to fish farmers throughout the province.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, since fingerling production has been the main activity in the province, is the hon. Minister considering extending it to the community in Luapula Province?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, that is the ministry’s vision. As a result, this year, we want to electrify Mwenda Fish Camp. So far, K80 million has been released and Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) has been paid to do that. To enhance fingerling production, we have also released K16 million for fingerling production in Mwense District.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to inform hon. Members that Mwenda Fish Camp has already distributed about 5,000 fingerlings to individuals and organisations within the district.

I thank you, Sir.


418. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC., (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:
(a) when and to whom the Metal Marketing Corporation Limited was sold;

(b) how much was realised from the sale;

(c) in which bank account the money was deposited and on what date; and

(d) who the signatories to the account at (c) were.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Metal Marketing Corporation Limited (MEMACO) was subjected to a members’ voluntary liquidation process in 1996 and its assets were sold to various individuals and organisations using the tender process.

 From 26th April, 1996, MEMACO (in liquidation) was under Messrs Faustine Kabwe, Aaron Chungu and Brian Musonda (deceased) as liquidators up to 2nd April, 2003, when Messrs Basil Chileshe, the then Administrator-General and Official Receiver, and Edgar Hamuwele of Grant Thornton Associates Limited were appointed as joint liquidators.

 The net proceeds of the sale of various assets, including MEMACO House, by the liquidators were transferred to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning,.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that upon conclusion of the liquidation process, the company was dissolved on 9th December, 2004, after holding statutory creditors and members’ meetings.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that a total sum of K47,553,841,000 was realised from the sale of various assets.

Mr Speaker, the company maintained a total of twelve bank accounts at the following commercial banks:

(i) Zambia National Commercial Bank Plc;

(ii) Citibank Zambia Limited;

(iii) First Merchant Bank Limited;

(iv) Barclays Bank Zambia Plc; and

(v) Commerce Bank Limited.

In view of this, the money from the sale proceeds was deposited in the above mentioned banks on various dates over a period of nine years, that is, between the period 26th April, 1996 to 31st December, 2004. Please, note that several small amounts from the sale of the assets were deposited in the banks on different dates during the aforementioned period.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, the signatories to the accounts mentioned above were the respective liquidators for the given tenures.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, one of the properties owned by MEMACO was MEMACO House. Will the hon. Minister inform the House whether this property was sold to the Public Service Pensions Fund (PSPF) by way of debt swap or direct sale?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I wish that had been indicated in the question. The year 2004 is quite a while ago. Therefore, we need to go back to the records to check. If the hon. Member so wishes, he can submit that question and we shall provide the answer.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, out of the K47 billion that was realised, what has gone to public financing?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the whole amount went to the Treasury.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, K47 billion was realised. How much money was paid to the lawyers who handled the sale of the assets?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, again, I do not have the answer to that question, but if the hon. Member so wishes, I can provide it to him directly.

Thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


419. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when toilets would be constructed at Kalumbinga Middle Basic School which was constructed under the Micro-projects Unit; and

(b) when solar systems would be installed at the following schools in Mwinilunga East Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Chiwoma; and

(ii) Kamapanda.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, according to the 2009 Infrastructure Plan, the Ministry of Education has not planned to construct toilets at Kalumbinga Middle Basic School. The district will plan to construct toilets at Kalumbinga Middle Basic School when funds are made available.

As I said in response to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Zambezi West, Chiwoma Basic School had its solar system installed using the Basic Education Sub-sector Investment Programme (BESSIP) funds. The Kamapanda Basic School solar system was installed using funds from the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF).

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that the solar systems for the two schools which were installed sometime back have not worked for the last two years?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I now doubt whether this is my brother’s constituency…

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Sinyinda: … because the question is about when the ministry is going to install solar systems. The question is not about why the solar system is not working. However, I confirmed with the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) this morning that the solar system is working.

I thank you, Sir.


420. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing whether the ministry had any plans to establish public libraries in rural councils countrywide and, if so, when the plans would be implemented.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that according to Section 61 of the Second Schedule of the Local Government Act, Cap. 281, all local authorities are mandated to establish public libraries. Though it is the Government’s desire to have public libraries in all the rural districts, councils are unable to provide this service due to budgetary limitations.

Mr Speaker, I have always emphasised that the service is now demand-driven and the Government will only support programmes that are demanded by the community. This means that councils must prioritise the establishment of libraries in their areas so that the Government can begin mobilising the resources needed for such programmes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the councils in rural areas are more disadvantaged than those in urban areas in a number of ways. Would it not be possible for the Government to acquire a loan specifically to set up libraries in rural councils countrywide?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as I mentioned in the answer, the services in the communities are demand-driven and, as a Government, we cannot just get a loan and start constructing libraries everywhere like we do for schools. However, if the service is demanded by the community and incorporated in the plan of the council, it becomes evident that the council would like the service, but is unable to provide it. In such a case, the Government can come in. As of now, the resources available are not enough for us to go flat out and construct libraries countrywide.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, with regard to question 411, the hon. Member for Chipili, Mr D. Mwila, raised a point of order implying that the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport had misled the House in one of the answers he gave.

I have been referred to the First Schedule of Cap. 470 of the Laws of Zambia on the membership of the Zambia Postal Services Board. Under the First Schedule of the Act, Section 1 establishes eight members as the board, including the Post Master-General.

Section 2 (5), provides that a corporation may act, notwithstanding any vacancy of office amongst its members. Section 4 (6), provides that five members form a quorum for the purpose of transacting business.

The answer by the hon. Minister referred to there being, at the moment, three members plus the Post Master-General, bringing the total to four members. As previously mentioned, these do not form a quorum. However, the catch is this, according to paragraph 2 (5) the corporation may act notwithstanding any vacancy of office amongst its members. This is what is provided for in the Act.

This may not necessarily be the end of the story and if any hon. Member is interested, he/she can follow it up by taking the matter for legal interpretation by the court which is competent to deal with these matters.

Thank you.





The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, the objective …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: As there is no quorum, I suspend business for 1 minute.

Business was suspended from 1630 hours until 1631 hours.

Mr Speaker: I believe we now have a quorum. When I suspended business, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was just about to give the principles of the Public-Private Partnership Bill, 2009. May the hon. Minister continue, please.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the objects of this Bill are to:

(a) promote and facilitate the implementation of privately financed infrastructure and effective delivery of social services by enhancing transparency, fairness and long-term sustainability. This will be done by removing undesirable restrictions on private sector participation in the provision of social sector services and the development and operation of public infrastructure;

(b)  establish a Public-Private Partnership Unit and provide for its functions;

(c) establish the Public-Private Partnership Council and provide for its functions;

(d) provide for public-private partnerships for the construction and operation of new infrastructure facilities and systems, the maintenance, rehabilitation, modernisation, expansion and operation of existing infrastructure facilities and systems and the provision of social sector services; ¬¬¬¬
(e) develop general principles of transparency, economy and fairness in the award of contracts by public authorities through the establishment of specific procedures for the award of infrastructure projects and facilities and provision of social sector services and rules governing public private inception, procurement, contracting and management of public-private partnerships;

(f) provide for the implementation of public-private partnership agreements between contracting authorities and concessionaires; and

(g) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Sir, the current global economic recession is making it very difficult for co-operating partners to financially support Zambia’s development at a level that adequately supplements our domestic efforts.

At national level, the Government is also finding it increasingly difficult to mobilise adequate resources through fiscal measures to meet the infrastructure and service delivery demands, due to reduced revenue collections, as a result of reduced economic activity in the country following the global economic recession.

Mr Speaker, public-private partnerships (PPPs) will, thus, provide an alternative avenue for attracting the much needed investment in the country where the Government will transfer the risk to the private sector while retaining overall ownership of public assets and, at the same time, obtaining value for its money. The Government will further benefit from the technology and skills that will come along with the participation of the private sector.

Sir, this Bill is straightforward and a necessary instrument for Zambia’s socio-economic development, and I recommend it to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, your Committee considered the Public-Private Partnership Bill, 2009, whose objectives have been ably stated by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observe that this Bill represents a fundamental shift in the management of the economy. They are aware that the Government has always advanced the policy that it has no business in business, except to provide an enabling environment. In this case, this includes maintaining a stable macro-economic environment and the provision of infrastructure and social services such as schools and hospitals.

Mr Speaker, your Committee supports the intentions of the Bill. However, you will observe that the Bill falls short of meeting the challenges that the PPP concept intends to overcome. Further, you will observe that this Bill requires strong political will in order to meet its intended objectives.

Sir, allow me to highlight some of the shortcomings of the Bill. Firstly, your Committee believe that the PPPs might promote development in urban areas. However, they are skeptical as to whether the Bill, in its current form, will promote development in rural areas. They are alive to the fact that the primary motive of investors is to earn profits. It is, therefore, unlikely that they would invest in the rural areas. This is, indeed, worrying, particularly that, recent Government initiatives such as the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZs), including this Bill for the PPPs, favour the development of urban areas.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are concerned that although the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) provides for strategies to uplift the rural areas from poverty, the Government does not seem to implement them. They recommend that the Government should implement the strategies stipulated in the FNDP.

Sir, your Committee observe that the proposed Public-Private Partnership Council and the technical committee have overlapping responsibilities. Having two organs doing the same activities will not only waste resources, but also increase the red-tape. In this regard, your Committee recommend that the technical committee should not be provided for in the Bill and that the unit which has been established in the Bill should be responsible for technical issues while the council should concentrate on matters of policy.

Sir, the deletion of the technical committee means that the composition of the council should be amended to include some of the members who were previously in the technical committee. These members include the Secretary to the Treasury, a representative from the Attorney-General’s Office, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), the Permanent Secretary in the ministry responsible for works and supply, the Permanent Secretary in the ministry responsible for industry, the Permanent Secretary in the ministry responsible for lands and the Permanent Secretary in the ministry responsible for local government.

Mr Speaker, in addition, the following institutions should be represented:

(i) the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ);

(ii) the National Council for Construction (NCC);

(iii) the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ); and

(iv) the Economics Association of Zambia (EAZ).

Mr Speaker, further, your Committee observe that the composition of the council is skewed towards the Government, and yet the Bill is premised on strong partnerships between the Government and the private sector. For the Bill to achieve its intended objectives, there is need to increase the representation of the private sector. Your Committee recommend the inclusion of representatives from the Zambia Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ZACCI) and the Zambia Business Forum (ZBF) as members of the proposed council.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observe that the President has the power to appoint four unspecified ministers to sit on the council. Your Committee are uncomfortable with this provision because they believe that it can easily be abused. Your Committee, therefore, recommend that rather than their being appointed by the President, the Bill should specify that the following should sit on the council: the minister responsible for land, the minister responsible for industry, the minister responsible for local government and the minister responsible for works and supply.

Mr Speaker, Clause 7 of the Bill empowers the council to give directives to any contracting authority, regulatory agency or concessionaire regarding the implementation of any project and the contracting authority shall comply with the directive notwithstanding any law to the contrary.

Sir, your Committee are of the view that the above provision gives power to the council to operate above the law. They fear that important recommendations by important regulatory agencies such as the ECZ can easily be overturned. In this regard, your Committee recommend that the clause should be recast to read as follows:

“Give directions to any contracting authority, regulatory agency or concessionaire regarding the implementation of any project in accordance with existing laws.”

Mr Speaker, your Committee are concerned by the Government’s intention to award concessionaires the right to refurbish and operate the existing facility in perpetuity as proposed in Clause 10 of the First Schedule. This is tantamount to privatising public services and may lead to private individuals taking over Government services for ever. For example, the concessionaire that has rehabilitated the railway system in Zambia can, under this provision, be granted a concession in perpetuity. This clause should be removed from the Bill.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observe that Clause 35 of the Bill permits a contracting authority to negotiate an agreement subject to the approval by the unit. Your Commitee observe that this provision is prone to abuse as has been the case in other pieces of legislation where single sourcing has been provided for. We, therefore, recommend its deletion from the Bill.

Mr Speaker, there should be no single sourcing under the PPPs as the rationale for single sourcing such as emergency and security do not apply. All PPP projects should be planned in advance and the private sector should not be allowed to take over defence and security projects. Single sourcing under the PPP projects will be a source of corruption.

Mr Speaker, regarding Clause 42, which provides for unsolicited proposals, your Committee recommend that there should be no compensation in the event that the unsolicited proposal is not selected. You may wish to know that there are many unsolicited proposals awaiting the enactment of the Public-Private Partnership Bill. There are more than thirty already waiting. If their bids are not accepted, the Government will spend colossal amounts of money in compensating them.

Mr Speaker, if all the concerns raised by your Committee are attended to and appropriate amendments made to the Bill, your Committee will support it.

Mr Speaker, I wish to conclude by thanking all the witnesses that appeared before your Committee for their input to our findings.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to thank you for affording your Committee an opportunity to consider the Bill. Last but not least, I wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the secretarial and other support services rendered to your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate. From the outset, I would like to state that I support the Bill, with the amendments proposed by your Committee.

Mr Speaker, it took me about a week to read and understand the draft Bill given to us a few weeks ago. I prepared myself to debate in detail because I was not happy with the content of the Bill.  However, thanks to your Committee, I will not waste much time because all my worries have been taken care of. A fine tuning, as Hon. Kavindele used to say, …


Mr Mooya: … has been done by your Committee and I thank them.

However, before I take my seat, I would just like to point out two or three issues. I note that the stakeholders are not happy with the idea of this law being applied retrospectively. I am not a lawyer, but I support the idea of applying this law retrospectively to correct the past. A lot of water has gone under the bridge.

Mr Speaker, one example would be the Luburma Market, which is a sad situation. We need to correct it. We cannot just leave it the way it is. I remember Hon. Norman Chibamba, on 2nd November, 2004, when answering Question No. 324 by Hon. Lubinda, gave some rates. With my simple arithmetic, and not calculus, I worked it out and found that within five years, the investor would have got back what he had pumped in. In being generous, we should have allowed a maximum of ten years as the lease period and not the sixty-five years given.

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, you may be interested to know that when this came up in 2004, I went to value Luburma Market. I carried out investigations and measurements and found that the life span of that market is not more than thirty years even though the lease period is for sixty-five years.

Mr Speaker, I am for the idea of applying the law retrospectively in order to correct the past. I hear that, already, there are thirty projects lined up. Let us, therefore, apply this law retrospectively.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that I wanted to discuss is that of unsolicited proposals. I think that the stakeholders, according to what I understood when I read this report, were against this. I am for what has been suggested in the draft Bill. We need comparable and competing proposals. From my understanding, unsolicited means an investor, by himself – and I stand to be corrected – carrying out feasibility studies and coming up with a project. An investor goes there alone, but when he brings his proposal, it must be subjected to competition, hence, the idea of having comparable and competing proposals.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is the composition of the council. I support what has been proposed by your Committee with the help of the stakeholders. In addition, I think that the council has been given too much power to interfere. As proposed, the council should just give direction and not directives. On its composition, I would like other experts on the PPP to be included for transparency purposes.

Mr Speaker, as pointed out earlier, I support this Bill with amendments. It is long overdue. I hope that my cousin, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, will include all these amendments.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to debate on the Public-Private Partnership Bill.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to state that this Bill is, indeed, overdue. It is a very progressive Bill in as far as raising resources from the private sector is concerned. Looking at our Budget and internal resources, I think that we are all in agreement that it is not possible for the Government to finance the construction of infrastructure in this country. Many of our colleagues, today, are engaging the private sector to assist them raise resources and construct important infrastructure that can bring about development.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state, from the outset, that the PPP policy is a form of privatisation. We, therefore, need to be clear, as leaders and the nation at large, that this is another way of privatising certain services that are supposed to be provided by the Government. However, because it has no capacity, in terms of resources, it is forced to work with the private sector to provide quality services to the people.

 Mr Speaker, the idea of coming up with legislation to regulate how the Government does this is very important. If we do not do this, we shall end up with what my brother, Hon. Mooya, talked about, where, in the past, we went into PPPs at local government level and in other Government sectors and ended up with a raw deal because the officers who were given the mandate to negotiate these PPPs did not have the capacity and experience to do so. Therefore, they would get into a deal with an investor or the private sector to build a market and they would give them a sixty-year lease. Obviously, the experts would say the lease should not have been for sixty years, but thirty years. The idea of entering a PPP was good because you got the private sector to help, but you struck a raw deal because the officials mandated to conclude the deal did not have the capacity to do so. Therefore, having a specialised unit to do this, as is being created by this Bill, is the right way forward for Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I want to state, as has already been said by the Chairperson of your Committee, that whilst we support this Bill, there is need to look at some of its details and, indeed, where there is a lacuna or something that is not good, the Executive must consider making amendments.
Mr Speaker, it is important that the powers of legal regulatory bodies like the local authorities, as planning authorities, and the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ), as the authority qualified to deal with the protection of the environment, are not overruled by politicians.

 Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Right now, we have politicians in the councils. It is important that you do not lose out, as a Government, by undermining the core institutions or law that you have created. To this effect, I would like the Executive to look at how we can tie this up so that we do not have a problem.

Mr Speaker, you will recall that a point of order was raised here concerning the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources regarding a statutory instrument which they should have issued to ensure that a clause, which was against the Principal Act, which was created through the issuance of a statutory instrument which took over the functions of the ECZ, was removed by withdrawing that statutory instrument. The signing of that statutory instrument has gone on for the last four years. Therefore, we need to be very careful and clear, as a Government, to ensure that we do use the back door to undermine the institutions that we create.

 Mr Speaker, the other point that I notice in the Bill concerns allowances. I have seen a proviso where members are going to be paid allowances. In the past, public officers or, indeed, hon. Ministers sitting on a board were not entitled to allowances because they were using Government time. I can see that we are now trying to legalise the payment of allowances to hon. Ministers or other public officers who get a salary. This erodes the powers of hon. Ministers.

Sir, as we decide to bring private partners into the delivery of social services in areas like water supply, in particular, I want to caution the Government, once again, that we had better do it cautiously. This is because even developed countries which have used this policy have experienced disturbances due to the fact that when a private person puts in money, his major motive is to reap profits.

Sir, what is happening currently, especially in Zambia, is that the Government subsidises our water bills which are the lowest in the region. I have no evidence, but I have heard that our water bills are very low. In addition, what people pay for some of the social services provided by the Government does not amount to the cost of providing them. The Government can manage to subsidise the services because its members are elected.

However, when you bring the private sector into the provision of basic services, such as the provision of water, you will have no say. This is because the investor will have invested 75 per cent of the cost and you will have agreed that he/she has to recoup his/her money within a specified period. Private investors do not normally take into account issues of the poor like you do. For example, when there is an outbreak of cholera and you decide that the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company (LWSC) should not charge the people in Matero because of the outbreak and that decision is implemented politically. When you are dealing with a private person, those things do not come into play. Therefore, that is another sure way of being overthrown by the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: You had better take that into account. We should not just think that the PPP is the omega. Yes, money will be there, but it will have strings attached and far-reaching implications.

 In many parts of Africa where the private sector was brought into the area of water provision, the Government has ended up reversing its decision because it had made the Government unpopular. People will rush into the provision of water because that is where the money is now.

 Mr Speaker, you will notice that commercialisation takes place in those areas. They come and invest in ZAMTEL because they know that everybody wants to talk. They will come and invest in areas of water because they know that everybody wants to drink water. They will also come and invest in railways because they know that everybody has to travel.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: They will not come and invest in education, but in areas where they know that even a poor person from Chishengula Village, who has no money, will participate because, for instance, he has a cellular phone. Right now, if you went to the rural areas, you would find that all the people have cellular phones. Even one who cannot afford three meals a day has a cellular phone because it is addictive and you have no choice because you need to talk to your family, children, boyfriends or girlfriends. Therefore, even when you do not have money, you will find money for talk time.

 Mr Speaker, all these hon. Members of Parliament may not have money, but they will spend something on talk time. It is a lucrative business. Even water is a money spinning business and people are going to rush and say that they want to partner with you in the provision of water. Therefore, I just want to caution the Government to think twice, carefully and clearly. Do not get too excited when you see big money and think that the answer has been found because we will have water. People will die because they will be unable to pay their bills. Apart from that, you will have already tied yourselves to a concession of thirty-five years. Before you know it, you will be out by force.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you most sincerely for allowing me to contribute to this debate.

 Mr Speaker, I am a member of your Committee and, therefore, by and a large, I take the speech by the Chairperson as my own. I would also like to agree with the former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon. Masebo, regarding the caution she has given the Government.

 Mr Speaker, like the Chairperson of your Committee said, this Bill is very important because it questions the fundamental principles on which the Government does business.

Sir, this Bill proposes a major philosophical shift, to borrow the words of Professor Lungwangwa, last week. This is a philosophical shift to the extreme right of governance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: This Bill proposes the introduction of the trinity of neo-liberalism, as it was unveiled at the Washington Consensus of 1989. The privatisation of all Government property, cutting on social service expenditure and removal of all barriers impede on the entry of foreign and, particularly, multi-national enterprises in economies such as ours.

Naturally, for there to be such a fundamental shift, the people out there should have been consulted, much more than they have done over this Bill. In many economies, Sir, the passage of such a fundamental shift in philosophy would have called for a referendum …


Mr Lubinda: … for people to decide whether, indeed, they want to be a capitalist neo-liberal market force oriented economy.


Mr Lubinda: However, this has not been done. Most of the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee said that they were being consulted only, now, through the parliamentary process, through your Committee. They were not involved in coming up with the policy. They were, also, not involved in coming up with the Bill. That, obviously, means that a large segment of our society has not had any input in this big shift in policy.

Sir, besides the general issues, there are a number of specific issues, some of which were raised by the Chairperson of your Committee, others by Hon. Mooya, and yet others by Hon. Masebo. I will pick a few that have not been covered.

Mr Speaker, firstly, this Bill purports, in Clause 20 (1) (C), that the law shall take cognisance of the existence of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act. However, this is limited as regards offering tenders for the provision of goods and services. It falls short of recognising the fact that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act entails following the Citizens’ Economic Empower Sector Codes which were a subject of debate last Wednesday. It also falls short of recognising the fact that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act aims at empowering local enterprises. Nowhere in the Bill is there mention of the fact that citizen-influenced companies will be given priority in partnering with the Government. In short, what it does is open up sundry businesses in our country to foreign multi-nationals.

Sir, Hon. Masebo stated, very clearly, the dangers of entering a PPP for the provision of water.  I can cite an example of one country in North Africa which entered into a PPP for the provision of water. I happen to have been privileged, as a councillor for Lusaka, to go on a study tour of the water sector in that country. Today, Dakar is suffering unprecedented levels of cholera after its water sector was given to a French company to run. Hence, Senegal is rethinking the whole idea of PPPs.

Sir, Clause 7 (1) (B) of the law makes the implementation of this law extremely bureaucratic. This is because even for a small project to be carried out in Chongwe, it will have to be approved by the council located here in Lusaka. Even the building of a public toilet in Senga Hill, where the hon. Minister of Health comes from, will have to be approved by the council located here in the city of Lusaka. You cannot say you are promoting development when you have such a bureaucratic process. Instead, you are retarding it.

Mr Speaker, therefore, it is the considered view of your Committee that amongst the amendments that should be considered is one that comes up with thresholds which allow local authorities to approve PPP projects without, necessarily, going to Lusaka to seek the approval of the council. Failure to do this will render this law totally unproductive.

Sir, much as this law is being referred to as the PPP, unfortunately, on the policy making body, the council, representation is only from one of the partners, the public sector. There is no representation from the private sector. How can you, then, say this is a PPP when the policy making body is only a representative of the public sector and not the private sector?

Hon. Opposition Member: Correct!

Mr Lubinda: It is our considered view that the private sector must be represented on the policy making body.

Mr Speaker, the Chairperson of your Committee referred to the appointment of four persons by the President. Our view is that, the purpose of this law is known. It is clearly spelt out. It, therefore, does not have to involve the discretion of the President. It is possible for this House to determine which institutions should be named in the law as members of the council. This way, we will not put the President in the predicament of having to think of which people to appoint. You must bear in mind that such discretionary power also imposes lots of challenges and burdens on the person you are giving it to. I do not think that His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, really, has the time to start thinking about which people he should appoint unless it is used in the same way the law of nominating hon. Members of Parliament is.

Sir, the Chairperson of your Committee also spoke about overlapping duties between the technical committee and the unit. Our proposal is that the technical committee must be done away with and that the representatives from the private sector on the proposed technical committee sit on the council. This way, we will have representation of the private sector on the policy making body that will direct the implementation of this law.

Mr Speaker, this Bill presupposes that the hon. Minister is the repository of wisdom on the council. In Clause 10 (2) (F), the Bill suggests that the hon. Minister, alone, should have the power to remove members of the committee. That is giving excessive power and this kind of power is often abused. We saw this happen in the implementation of the Public Procurement Act. In this country, exceptions become the norm and we must guard against that. We should not give that amount of discretion to the hon. Minister. I would rather we allow the committee, itself, and not the hon. Minister, to have the power to remove a member if that member fails to live up to its expectations.

Hon. Government Members: Awe!


Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, if you look at the preamble in the First Schedule, you will see that, again, the law is designed, by our colleagues on your right, in such a way that this House becomes irrelevant. You will, also, see that the Government is giving discretionary power to the unit to decide the kind of agreements and combinations of agreements that can be entered into. If this is done like that, why bring a law which has a provision for agreements to the House?

Sir, our position is that there are sixteen different forms of agreements and we must stick by them. We must not give discretion to a unit to decide on combinations and permutations because by so doing, we will be opening up our society to abuse by the few people that sit on the unit. That means that our society shall not be protected by this august House.

Finally, Mr Speaker, in Clause 48 (1), the law gives the concessionaire the right to charge or collect levies for use of infrastructure. It further says the levies will be adjusted in accordance with any rules established not by the law, but by the regulatory agency. We have difficulties with this because, again, you cannot allow a unit to come up with rules that will govern the conditions under which levies shall be changed. That should be provided for in the law so that everyone who is implementing this is guided by that. This will prevent the tendency of people cutting deals under the table.

In addition, we do not see how the regulator will regulate the levies if there is no provision in the law that compels the concessionaire to provide audited accounts to the regulator on an annual basis. We, therefore, propose that the law be amended so that concessionaires provide, on an annual basis, audited accounts which will guide the regulator when the concessionaire applies for adjustments in levies. Without that financial information, it will be difficult for the regulator to determine whether the request by the concessionaire is justified.

I would like to end by reiterating what the Chairperson of your committee said. Your Committee supports this Bill, however, only on condition that the amendments that have been proposed are made and that the law, itself, is made tighter and more tidy to ensure that the fears that Hon. Masebo, Hon. Mooya and the hon. Chairperson of your Committee have raised are addressed, lest we give this country away for a song to all sorts of foreign nationals and companies. We should also bear in mind that most of the so-called foreign investors coming to this country are not from the private sector in the countries where they are domicile. They are, actually, parastatal companies in the countries they are coming from.

Mr Nsanda: Chinese!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, if we are going to give the provision of services and infrastructure to parastatals belonging to foreign countries, what will we have done to our economic and political independence? It would mean that we are becoming a colony and we should not allow foreign capital to domineer over the political independence our fore-fathers died for.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I must declare that I am a member of your Committee that looked at this Bill and, therefore, would like to share the sentiments of the Chairperson which have been reflected in his remarks to this House.

Sir, I want, above all, to build on the theme that my colleague the hon. Member for Kabwata, Mr Lubinda, has raised. The question that this is, in fact, using his term, a philosophical shift, and I think, the correct term is a paradigm shift.

Mr Speaker, there was consensus that, indeed, there was a paradigm shift in the way the Government does business. However, since there was a paradigm shift, it gave birth to troubling anxieties because no one could predict exactly how this strategy in development and doing business for the Government would evolve under the Zambian socio-economic conditions; that there was bound to be, probably, what you might call bifurcations where things do not move in a clear linear way, but split into different kinds of possibilities. However, there was consensus, in spite of these troubling anxieties, by the witnesses, that this Bill is long overdue. They did raise their concerns, but the emphasis was that the Bill was long overdue and the paradigm shift was necessary for very specific reasons.

 Firstly, they observed, in different ways, that there was a crisis of capacity, in the Zambian State, with regard to the execution of public projects. Therefore, there was need, if we acknowledged this crisis of capacity, to inject private sector resources in order to help us overcome this crisis, particularly in the area of infrastructure development.

Secondly, they observed that there was a crisis of finance. There is no money as everybody recognises. We can see this in our Budget. There is a limited financial capacity in the State and, therefore, the private sector will inject new capital that will allow for major infrastructure development.

Thirdly, there was an observation that there was a crisis of confidence in the way that Government business is done. This is largely associated with governance problems, including corruption. Therefore, we need to inject into the conducting of Government business the mentality, work style, philosophies and ethics of private sector corporate governance behaviour.

Fourthly, they observed that there was a crisis of indecision in the Government and the way it does business. This is not specific to the regime of today.

Sir, it was a general observation of the witnesses that Zambia has failed to develop because of these troubling anxieties of crisis, capacity, finance, confidence and indecision. In fact, because there is so much indecision, you get what most people would call non-decision decisions ...


Dr Kalumba: … where nothing really takes place. People are afraid of making decisions and, therefore, this fear of making decisions becomes the decisions. There is need, therefore, according to the witnesses, for a paradigm shift that brings in the private sector zeal for change and desire to move things in the way in which the Government does business.

Mr Speaker, there was a concern that in the production of public goods in which the private sector is involved, as the Chair rightly pointed out, the private sector will be driven by the profit motive and, therefore, there will be a concern whether or not quality should be compromised. A good example was the question with regard to health services being managed through a PPP. The tendency by private players to cut down on costs may compromise life and death issues. Because of this, there is need to create a good balance between the two critical elements in a PPP. These are provisioning and regulation.

Mr Speaker, the Government’s capacity relates to its ability to provide, but its provisioning capacity is under question. Therefore, you bring in the private sector. However, the Government’s regulatory framework can be strengthened. Hence, the issue raised by my colleague, the hon. Member for Chongwe, Mrs Masebo, on the need to ensure that when this Bill becomes law, it does not compromise our capacity to regulate according to existing laws such as the Environmental Council of Zambia Act.

Mr Speaker, where this Bill appears to override or challenge existing regulatory laws, there may be a threat to our capacity to maintain quality in the provision of services. Therefore, the request of your Committee is that the Executive listens kindly to their recommendations that some structural amendments be made to ensure that this Bill, which is well intended and has come at the right time to address serious crises of the State, can become a positive force in our society. We need to make these important amendments.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minster for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, may I thank you for according me this opportunity to put across my thoughts on this Bill.

Sir, I think the country should not forget so easily where we have come from. Any country that gains its independence is always excited about the benefits that will accrue to it. That excitement translates into people poking their noses into everything that is supposed to be done by the Government. We ran a commandist state and economy in this country, where we wanted to be the grabbers of everything because we were in Government. That had consequences on the way we performed, as a Government. There were long queues because we controlled everything.

Sir, as a Government, we are shifting from the left to the right. I think the left hand of each economy in the world is getting shorter. It is not there anymore.


Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the once proud Eastern countries have now shifted to the right and anyone can oppose me if there is still a country that can be identified with the left today. This is because the left …

Hon. Opposition Member: Cuba.

Mr Munkombwe: Cuba is …

I do not want to mention specific countries because I know that they are suffering and moving away from the left. Why are they now pleading with the Americans and British? It is because the left is outdated and no longer in existence and we will not resurrect it whether we want to or not.


Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the issue of public-private partnership has been hanging for a long time. People were secretly engaging with foreign nationals, but only to be outdone by the so-called foreign nationals because there was nothing to protect the Zambians. The Government is now enacting a law to regulate how people can be linked to these foreign nationals. Therefore, the Government must be commended for this and there is no quarrel about it. The nitty-gritties are consequential and may be dealt with later, but our people in the farming, commercial and mining industries need protection and that is why this Bill has been brought to the House.

Mr Speaker, one of the young enthusiastic parliamentarians, Hon. Lubinda, said that this Government is moving from the left. When did the left seize? It seized in 1990. That is when you cleared those of us who were leaning towards the left. I paid a very high price myself. I lost not because I did not perform, but because I had stuck to a system which was outdated.


Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if you stick to something that is outdated, the consequence is that you will fall away.

Hon. Opposition Members: That is the one.

Mr Munkombwe: And I had to fall away.

Mr Kambwili: Then, you fell away.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, our people need protection. You cannot be in Government and, at the same time, think that you can run a business. It is not correct. A Government is there to run the affairs of the country, including protecting its citizens. That is why we are there, but once you say this Government is shifting from this to that, then you are being unfair. We have a Government whose responsibility is to look after the affairs of the people, including the people who will be in a company with foreigners. We want to know their qualifications and those qualifications can be determined by an Act of Parliament. We do not want people to mislead us like we were almost misled on the tax which we had abolished.

Hon. Opposition Members: Windfall Tax.

Mr Munkombwe: The windfall tax. If we had not been careful, as a Government, the investors would have run away.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Munkombwe: It does not matter what you say. This is because investors want to put their money where it is safe. However, part of the motive was to mislead those of us in Government. However, we were alert and, therefore, not misled.


Mr Munkombwe: If you are starving, you cannot give conditions to a man who will produce food for you. I am a reputable producer and nobody can intimidate me. If you intimidate me, I will clear you.


Hon. Members: Witchcraft.

Mr Munkombwe: Sorry, not you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, in this country, what we should do as we go to bed in our houses everyday is ask ourselves how many people we had provoked or inconvenienced that day. As we wake up in the morning, we must ask ourselves how many people we will be able to influence to do what we do.

 If you say that this Bill …


Mr Munkombwe: … is horrible, all it needs are amendments, and I think we are in agreement on this.


Mr Munkombwe: We are all agreed that its framework is correct. That is what I heard from the hon. Member for Chienge and Hon. Masebo. When people raise points which they suspect will be inconveniencing if a Bill is passed in the form it is, we take them kindly. However, to say that we are shifting from the right to the left is not true because the left went with us (the United National Independence Party Government (UNIP)) in 1990. It is over.

Mr Kambwili: But you are back.

Mr Munkombwe: It is history now. The left is gone and nobody should think of resurrecting it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to debate on this Bill. I stand to protect myself from being cleared by those who were cleared in 1991 and …


Mr Matongo: … are still in existence.

Hon. Opposition Member: He will clear you.

Mr Matongo: The principle of this Bill is correct. As you know, I am an advocate of the principle of the Government having no business in business.  However, the Government should always be there to ensure equality in the distribution of business and wealth in the country.

Mr Speaker, while I support that view, it is very important to understand the status of the development of this country. Along the line of rail and, maybe, 50 kilometres west or east of the Great North Road and the provincial centres, these ideas can work. However, it does not mean our rural people cannot learn and emulate this. It is the implementation of these ideas that is important and I think that is what the old Hon. Munkombwe was trying to put across. I have to purify it …


Mr Matongo: … because I am a modern technician and he acknowledges that.

Mr Munkombwe: I agree.


Mr Matongo: That is good.

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his colleagues in Cabinet to clearly identify what the ordinary Zambian with ideas is capable of doing and at what point he/she will be dovetailed with the people with big money. There is absolutely nothing wrong with privatisation just as there was  nothing wrong with nationalisation. During a certain era, nationalisation was the fashion and vogue. However, after some time, privatisation was undertaken so as to release the wealth of countries that had undergone nationalisation earlier. I think that was the idea. Similarly, all we want is to implement certain things so that the development of this country moves in a particular direction.

Mr Speaker, I also have a very serious problem with the notion of us not believing in ourselves. I disagree with the perception that when somebody becomes a hon. Minister, he or she undergoes some mental surgery and, all of a sudden, becomes corrupt. I always tell my colleagues, on this side of the House, that we lose nothing by having minimum trust in the people in positions of responsibility. We should give them the minimum support without alleging that they have joined those that are corrupt.

Mr Speaker, a lot of good people are refusing to be in the Government for fear of being labelled corrupt. I also want to advise this House that we need to develop good ideas. In order to implement these good ideas, we must ensure that the best people get the best jobs. In short, we should look at people’s competences and not merely talk about technologies and academic qualifications. I dare say that the daily politicising and discussion of corruption and ineptitude in this country instead of talking about development frustrates me a great deal.

Although I support this Bill, I agree with the Chairperson of your Committee that, perhaps, we should have designated ministries to be part of the PPP Council, as well as institutions such as ZACCI, the ZBF, EIZ and EAZ. I also wish to state that if there is need for a technical committee, then it should come under subsidiary legislation in due course.

I also want to say something controversial because of this (holding up a document) and in your interest (pointing at hon. Government Members) because you do not like talking. We want to talk for you.


Mr Matongo: There is absolutely something wrong in the Budget cycle of this country and I congratulate the Government for embarking on correcting this. However, the next bad thing is the whole process of public procurement. It is, in fact, predetermined that this process must be corrupt. I think we should stop that. There is nothing wrong in a good executive taking a good decision alone. Who says a group of five can make a better decision and even be less corrupt than one person?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I want you to know (looking at hon. Opposition Members) and I also want you to hear (pointing at hon. Government Members).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: We have to run this country properly. Once elected into authority, we have to lead diligently and with an amount of proficiency. We must not walk and speak as though we have no integrity. Leaders should walk and speak with confidence, like I am doing.


Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, as a result of the negative perception of public procurement, we want to shun single sourcing. Single sourcing is not corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Hon. Members on this side should ensure that those that are tasked to undertake single sourcing are men and women of great integrity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Those are not.

Mr Matongo: I agree with you. I would like to believe that if there is no contention, I should be allowed to run my party or business the way I want to. However, when there is contention, a wider consultation is needed.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I support this Bill, but with the amendments suggested by my good friends who sat on your Committee.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I wish to guide the House that when we repeal and replace an Act of Parliament, certain terminologies fall away and new ones come into being. For instance, when this House repealed the Zambia National Tender Board Act and replaced it with the Zambia Public Procurement Act, we left behind the term ‘single sourcing’ and brought in its place the term ‘direct procurement’. I listened to you debate this and I believe that is what happened.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Bill. However, I do not support some of the recommendations of your Committee such as the questioning of the existence of the technical committee. The Bill is very clear on the functions of the technical committee. In any case, when we talk about duplication, can one call it duplication if there is a sub-committee of a board of directors which ultimately reports to the board? The function of this technical committee is to go through information in order for the council to make decisions expeditiously.



Mr Mulongoti: If the council has to go through the minute details which it does not have time for, we will be overburdening it. Therefore, the purpose of the technical committee is to provide information that has already been refined for the council to make decisions. 
Let it remain because it has a purpose to serve. I also disagree with the view that the committee is skewed towards the public sector. We need people with authority to make quick decisions about funding and manpower. They should also have access to other offices. It is much easier for someone who holds a public office to walk into any office than someone from the private sector. The decisions that are made have to take into consideration public policy. Therefore, at the end of the day, you need to have people from the public sector in these committees.

Mr Speaker, I also disagree with the view that we must specify the ministries that must be represented in the council. We must give the President the leeway to appoint his best men and women from amongst his ministers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Why do you want to tie his hands when he knows them better than you do? If, for instance, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives has the competence that would be useful to the committee, why should he be denied the opportunity of being its member? Let us not tie the President’s hands. If you read the Parliamentary Handbook, you will see the qualifications of all the hon. Members who were elected to Parliament.


Mr Mulongoti: Since the Constitution says that the President will appoint ministers from amongst his elected members, even if you do not have specific qualifications, you qualify to be appointed because the qualifications are not specified in the Constitution. That is why it is important to allow the President to use his discretion when appointing the people to sit on the council.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I find it strange for one to state that the council must not have the power to direct and give authority. This is because for the council to be effective, it needs to have the power to implement its decisions. If you think you can be democratic in the implementation of projects, you are cheating yourselves. That is not possible. The reason there has been procrastination in the carrying out of projects is that people do not want to take responsibility for the decisions that they make. Therefore, I see no reason at all for the council not to give directives on how the implementation must be undertaken as opposed to passing the buck. If the council does not direct the implementation of the projects, who is going to do it? Are you passing the buck to somebody else? Why should you do that and why then establish a council? The council must be the superior body that must be able to implement projects. Therefore, I disagree with this recommendation and would like the council to have sufficient powers to implement projects.

I find the argument that PPPs will only work well in urban areas very strange because the Government has programmes. We have targets to achieve and, as a Government, we will direct an investor who wants to pump money into any sector. For instance, if you work on a road from Kalulushi to Kasempa, where is the bias towards urban areas? The Government has told the private sector that it does not have sufficient resources to carry out projects on its own and so it must come on board.

Mr Speaker, we have already decided to put a bridge in my brother’s constituency in Zambezi although he is not here. The private sector will be enticed into financing the construction of the bridge. There is no way that there can be a bias towards urban areas because the projects are part of the Government’s programmes except that we have asked the private sector to partner with us so that we can develop our country together. I see no reason for you to allege that we are skewing towards urban areas. Let us be objective when dealing with issues like this one because we want to develop the country together and we will do it following the plans and programmes of the Government. I see nothing wrong with this.

Mr Speaker, this is a very progressive Bill and I would like to support it …

Mr Kambwili: With amendments.

Mr Mulongoti: … not by subtracting from the good things that have been provided for.

Mr Speaker, the people who sat to look at this Bill, the Legislative Committee, did a good job and those of us who were not there must not see anything wrong with its work. If there is anything you want to question, you are free to do so, but, at the end of the day, I would like to believe that …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Government Members: Kambwili!

Mr Speaker: Order! Only the hon. Minister of Works and Supply has the Floor to debate.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I am doing my best to help those who cannot understand issues.

I thank you, Sir.


The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add just a few words on this very progressive Bill, the Public-Private Partnership Bill.

Mr Speaker, quite a number of points which I had prepared have been articulated. I will just give a concrete example on how this Bill will assist our nation. There are very good examples where PPPs have accelerated socio-economic development. Most of us in this House have been saying that we are rich just by looking at the natural resources that we have in our districts and constituencies for many years. Surely, these things, be it water, minerals or sand can be converted into something which is usable, for instance, capital, if we were able to invest in their development.

This Bill, therefore, is meant to accelerate socio-economic development. Indeed, we have land and labour, but capital needs to be injected into these resources. Therefore, the Bill is a welcome move.

Mr Speaker, many years ago, I had the opportunity to visit Shenzhen in China which ten years prior to my visit was a fishing camp. The Chinese Government put up a deliberate policy that any foreigner who had money could go into China and partner with any of the indigenous Chinese, but also some projects with the Government. For those who, ten years later went to Shenzhen, it was a marvel to see such a commercial centre. There was no magic, but a realisation that in order to develop their country, they needed assistance in terms of finance, skills and technology.

Mr Speaker, I thought that I should comment also concretely on the issue or fear that the PPPs will benefit only urban areas. Let me give concrete examples of the rural folk in Zambia who are predominantly into agriculture. I can see them benefiting from the PPPs, for instance, when we direct our partners to construct storage and warehousing facilities whose beneficiaries can only be the small-scale farmers in our rural areas. In addition, to develop the capacity of the storage facilities for our grain, even along the line of rail, we will certainly direct our would-be partners to, for instance, rehabilitate the silos.

Mr Speaker, I think this year is a good example because we have produced 1.88 million metric tonnes of maize and 88 per cent of this stock has been produced by the small-scale farmers.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: We have a challenge of marketing. Surely, we can see the benefit of, for instance, having public-private marketing institutions in place. Such a move will strengthen the marketing of our crops and ensure that our hardworking farmers get the benefit of their labour. Therefore, these are examples that negate the fact that such investment will only be for urban areas.

     One issue which I thought I should comment on is the protection of vulnerable users of resources such as water. I think if my colleagues read the Bill, they would know that there are various types of PPPs. There is, for instance, the build own and operate and the build operate and transfer (BOT) and the list goes on categorising the roles of the private investor and the Government. I think it is mentioned categorically in Section 44 that every agreement shall be governed by and constructed in accordance with the Laws of Zambia unless otherwise provided in the agreement. The issues of equity must be looked into at implementation stage.

Mr Speaker, this is a progressive Bill. I think it is up to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to amend those areas that have been pointed out. Since he is the mover of this Bill, he will ponder on the contributions and advise us.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am most grateful for the support that this House has rendered to the Bill. I wish to repeat and emphasise the point that PPPs shall take the centre stage in the economic development of our country.

I have also noted, Mr Speaker, a number of observations made in your Committee’s report and I will provide the necessary reaction at Committee Stage after making the necessary consultations with the stakeholders. Otherwise, PPPs will, in the long run, enhance our efforts to diversify the economy through increasing the role that the private sector will play in our country.

Mr Speaker, it may be pleasing to note that some neighbouring countries such as Namibia, Botswana and South Africa have achieved significant strides in developing their infrastructure and social services provision while providing their national governments with the fiscal space as a result of the savings made. As a nation, it is imperative to embrace the concept of PPPs in order to accelerate economic development.

Mr Speaker, there are concerns about the possibility of this country making a paradigm shift to the right as a result of the adoption of this Bill. I see things differently. I see things in the sense that our country is merely joining the club of nations that will become wiser by adopting innovative measures so that it can achieve faster economic developments. There is no need to fear at all and characterise this as a shift towards the extreme right because that is not the case.

Mr Speaker, I have seen excellent infrastructure as I have travelled around the world. I have seen corridors like the N4 Road which is the Maputo Corridor from South Africa to Maputo, Mozambique. That is an excellent highway. Reckless drivers can drive on that road for about 180 kilometres per hour without any problems.

Hon. Government Member: 200 kilometres.

Dr Musokotwane: Even 200 kilometres. What is the arrangement? It is PPP. I have seen a highway in Singapore running through Malaysia all the way to Thailand. I have not seen similar highways in the advanced countries of the world. That was a result of the PPP. However, let me remind ourselves that the PPP concept, in fact, is not new to Zambia because more than 100 years ago, we had PPPs in Zambia. A specific example I have is the railway line running from Livingstone to the Copperbelt. It was not constructed using Government money. If you look at the magnificent bridge on the Victoria Falls, it was also not done using Government money, but public-private partnership money. All we are doing now is going back to the wisdom of 100 years ago. Clearly, something happened in between that made us forget about this common, but innovative way of financing infrastructure. Therefore, if it made sense more than 100 years ago to use private money to construct a piece of infrastructure like that, there is absolutely no need for us to fear today.

Mr Speaker, finally, there is, again, the new kind of fear that you hear in this House that this initiative is only meant for foreigners. This initiative is open to all of us. In fact, as I speak now, I know of a project that one of the institutions in this country is proposing which is to construct a road from Chirundu via the Kafue River right into the Leopards Hill Road. One of the Zambian institutions in this country wants to do this. My challenge to all those who are always condemning foreigners is, take a leaf from this Zambian institution that is planning to do this. Follow suit and do the same.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 7th August, 2009.


The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the objects of the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill are to:

(a) create a safe, secure and effective environment for the consumer, business sector and Government to conduct the use of electronic communications;

(b) promote legal certainty and confidence and encourage investment and innovation in the electronic communications industry;

(c) facilitate the creation of secure electronic communication systems and networks;

(d) provide for the interception of electronic communications by law enforcement officers under specified circumstances;
(e) repeal the Computer Misuse and Crimes Act, 2004; and

(f) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, it is necessary to introduce this Bill in order to address the gap in the legal and regulatory framework because neither the Communications Authority nor our security agencies have adequate legal instruments to deal with matters related to electronic communications.

Sir, I wish to remind this august House that in 1994, Zambia was the pioneer of the internet in Sub-Saharan Africa outside South Africa. This has provided new forms of communication services such as e-mail, internet and mobile communications. However, this proliferation of technologies has not been matched by appropriate legislation on the use of electronic communications in the country. It is with this gap in the law that the country has witnessed serious threats to its security. Examples abound in this area:

(i) the defacing of the State House Website in the recent past is a case in point where the information in the highest office in the land was tampered with; and

(ii) the hacking into ZAMNET servers by alleged foreign entities, not too long ago, is a lesson enough for us to address this matter squarely.

However, the e-mail and internet are technologies that have positively transformed the development of economies around the world. Therefore, it is about time that Zambia adopted information and communication technologies (ICTs) for the betterment of the country.

Mr Speaker, once this Bill is enacted, it is expected that the following positive results will arise:

(i) prohibition of interception of electronic communication with a stiff penalty of twenty-five years. This would provide a deterrent to would-be offenders. However, our security agencies and law enforcement officers will have to be well equipped to deal with matters of intrusion in our telecommunications system; and

(ii) technologies such as e-mail and internet form the bases of an effective communication system in the delivery of public services by the Government. Therefore, the e-Government Programme under my ministry will be provided with a platform to make the Government efficient, effective, transparent and accountable to the people of Zambia by adopting electronic communications as well as delivery of services over the mobile, internet and electronically in general. In the banking and financial sector, many banks are now advertising internet and mobile banking services. These services require a solid legal and regulatory framework as provided for in this Bill.

Mr Speaker, the context of this Bill is that Zambia has developed the National ICT Policy which was launched on 28th March, 2007. The policy provides for the need to address the matters outlined in the Bill. Therefore, Zambia, like many other countries in the world, which is interconnected to the global network of communication systems, should reap the benefits of ICTs today or in future. However, unless and until we provide an appropriate legal and regulatory framework, the country is bound to lag behind while, at the same time, become vulnerable to inside and outside threats by bad elements that are bound to surface in every society.

Lastly, this Bill is timely and not controversial at all as the provisions in the Bill are in line with modern practice across the world.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The Bill provides for an effective regulator and allows for better forms of communication and governance while ensuring that a safe and secure communication system is established in the country.

I, therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to support the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, your Committee were tasked to consider the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, 2009.

Sir, your Committee consulted various stakeholders who gave valuable information on the Bill and gratitude goes to them.

Mr Speaker, let me, from the outset, put on record the fact that the time given to committees to consider Bills is extremely inadequate. Within fourteen days, the Committee have to communicate to stakeholders to analyse the Bill and give their responses. The Committee have to meet, deliberate and produce a report.

Sir, stakeholders have complained about the inadequate time given to them. Your Committee wondered why the Executive is always in a hurry to pass laws. We need to do justice to the Bills before they become law. If we are not careful, the same laws will work against us in future.

Mr Speaker, in as much as the Bill seeks to address the issue of e-commerce and e-Government, your Committee have made serious observations on the Bill as outlined in the report.

Sir, let me highlight some important issues that your Committee observed. Concern was raised on Part XI regarding the interception of communication which has a lot of implications. Your Committee, during their interaction with the stakeholders, learnt that the implementation of the interception of communication requires that every piece of equipment brought into the country has a provision for being tapped.

Mr Speaker, the interception monitoring equipment is estimated to cost US$17 million which is a huge cost and the service providers are supposed to meet this cost which will eventually be passed on to the consumers. This is bound to be abused by unscrupulous officers just to destroy an individual or company.

Your Committee further observed that cyber crime inspectors need capacity to carry out this task effectively. To this effect, your Committee recommend that Clause 93 (1) on the appointment of the cyber inspectors, which defines them as ‘any person’, should be amended to read, ‘suitably qualified person who should be an expert in information technology and have the necessary legal skills’. Mr Speaker, you cannot appoint any person to undertake such a sophisticated job.

Sir, another area of concern with regard to this Bill is Part XV, particularly Clause 102, which relates to the possession of pornographic material. Pornographic material, which I might not even be aware of, can be found on my computer today.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was commenting on Clause 102 of the Bill. By virtue of this clause, if a law enforcement officer finds pornographic material on my computer, I will, by law, be liable to prosecution if this Bill is passed. If someone wanted to maliciously injure another, they would successfully use this clause and the damage that would be done to the individual would be extensive.  
Mr Speaker, in this House, we should not think that we can escape this. The same law we want to pass now may visit some of us. This clause needs to be approached with caution and it should be refined. Otherwise, individuals and companies may be framed by malicious persons.

Your Committee, therefore, strongly recommend that the possession of pornographic material be clearly defined in this Bill so as to protect innocent individuals.

Mr Speaker, the other proposed amendments are outlined in your Committee’s report. Your Committee hope that the amendments will be made before this Bill is passed into law.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank this august House for the overwhelming support to this Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 5th August, 2009.


Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill entitled Information and Communication Technologies Bill, 2009, be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the objects of the Information and Communication Technologies Bill are to:

(a) continue the existence of the Communications Authority and rename it as the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority;

(b) provide for the regulation of the information and communication technology;

(c) facilitate access to information and communication technologies;

(d) protect the rights and interests of service providers and consumers;

(e) repeal the Telecommunications Act of 1994 and the Radio Communications Act of 1994; and

(f) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, it is necessary to introduce this Bill in order to address the gap in the legal and regulatory framework because the current Telecommunications Act has such serious deficiencies that the legal framework is not reflective of the developments that have taken place since 1994. You may wish to know that technology changes every six months, thus, the sector is very dynamic. In summary, the industry practice is far ahead of the current legal framework, hence, the need for the overhaul.

Mr Speaker, it is not a secret that global economies are no longer shaped by huge reserves of natural resources alone because developed economies are driven more by the power of information. After all, information is power. In order to access information on health, education and the social well-being of individuals, ICTs have become the cornerstone of such developments. Thus, my ministry is focused on developing optic fibre links to connect Zambia to the rest of the world. This is simply to ensure that the country has sufficient capacity to deliver communication systems such as mobile phones, e-mail and internet.

The justification for this Bill is as follows:

(i) the Communications Authority as an institution needs to expand its mandate from just telecommunications to cover the broad areas as outlined in the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, 2009, as well as the Postal Services Bill, 2009; 

(ii) the convergence of technologies has created new products and services that cannot be regulated under the current legal and regulatory framework; and

(iii) in line with regional and global practice, there is a new approach to regulation in areas not covered in the current law such as interconnection, infrastructure sharing and dispute resolution.

Mr Speaker, once this Bill is enacted, it is expected that the following positive results will arise:

(i) the empowerment and strengthening of the Communications Authority in order to effectively deal with industry matters not covered in the current law such as regulation of the postal sub-sector and information technology as is the practice in the region such as in Tanzania;

(ii) allow for dispute resolution through a tribunal in order to reduce on lengthy court cases over matters that can be resolved within the industry. A case in point is the ZAMTEL dispute over interconnection fees with MTN and Zain Zambia that has been outstanding since 2001;

(iii) have legal provision for the management of the sector through security measures such as regulation of mobile phones and sim cards to avoid theft and abuse of subscribers through harassment by third parties. This is part of an enhanced security system for the country;

(iv) facilitate the introduction of a new licensing framework which is independent of technologies being deployed by service providers. This enhances rapid service provision and reduces the cost of doing business;

(v) facilitate the creation of the universal access and service fund. This fund is designed to act partly as a subsidy to service providers willing to take ICT services, especially to the rural areas; and

(vi) enhance consumer protection mechanisms.      

Mr Speaker, the context of this Bill is that Zambia has developed the National ICT Policy which was launched on 28th March, 2007. The policy provides for a radical shift in line with global communication trends. The mobile phone is fast becoming a device for all services, including mobile television broadcasting. This is very likely to happen in Zambia as the World Cup 2010 draws near.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I would like to appeal to this august House to support the Bill so that we create an effective regulator, normalise the licensing framework and realise cheaper and better communication systems for our country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muyanda:  Mr Speaker, your Committee was asked to consider the Information and Communication Technologies Bill, 2009.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Telecommunications sector has been primarily governed by the Telecommunications Act, Cap. 469, and the Radio Communications Act, Cap. 169 of the Laws of Zambia, which, over time, have proved inadequate.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to state that this Bill is a welcome move, but the proposed amendments should be examined carefully as highlighted in your Committee’s report.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are concerned with the First Schedule which has given the hon. Minister powers to appoint members to the board. Your Committee feel that this leaves room for abuse by the hon. Minister.

Mr Speaker, the Bill, in the First Schedule, 5 (B) to (E), excludes politicians and their immediate family members from being appointed to the board. Most citizens have political inclinations. It is just that some people participate in active politics openly. This provision has excluded many Zambians who might be highly qualified from being on the board. This is discrimination of the highest order and a violation of human rights. Your Committee strongly recommend the amendment of the First Schedule in Clause 5.

Mr Speaker, the composition of the board also needs to be reviewed. It has left out professional bodies in ICT like the Computer Society of Zambia. If ICTs are being advanced in this country, then professional bodies need to be recognised. It has also been suggested by your Committee that the Computer Society of Zambia be recognised by an Act of Parliament and should be included on the board.

Mr Speaker, Clause 74 (2) provides:

“the Minister shall not appoint the tribunal unless the appellant deposits with the Minister such sum as the Minister considers will be sufficient to pay the costs, including the allowances payable to the members of the tribunal, likely to be incurred in connection with the appeal.”

Mr Speaker, this is a serious oversight on the part of the Government. It is not right that the hon. Minister be the one to determine what amount would be sufficient for the tribunal to sit. It is also not fair that the complainant should pay before the dispensation of justice. Your Committee recommend that the tribunal’s costs be met by the National Treasury.

Mr Speaker, your Committee welcome the issue of interconnectivity which is being proposed. The obtaining situation is an eyesore and a danger to public health. You will find that at one place, there are three masts, three towers and three generators for three different service providers. The world has now moved to cable connection.  If the three service providers are going to connect to the under sea cable in Tanzania or Namibia, are they going to dig three trenches alongside each other? No. There should be an understanding among the service providers so that one facility is used.

Mr Speaker, the other proposed amendments are contained in the report of your Committee. It is, again, the hope of your Committee that the proposed amendments will be made before the Bill is passed into law.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Members for their overwhelming support of this Bill.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House. 
Committee on Thursday, 6th August, 2009.


Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill entitled the Postal Services Bill, 2009, be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the objects of the Postal Services Bill are to:

(a) continue the existence of the Zambia Postal Services Corporation;

(b) provide for the regulation of the postal sector by the Communications Authority;

(c) facilitate the creation of the postal banks through the network of existing post offices under ZAMPOST;

(d) repeal the Postal Services Act, Cap. 470; and

(e) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the forgoing.

Mr Speaker, it is necessary to introduce this Bill in order to modernise our postal sub-sector which is threatened by the expanded use of electronic communications such as the internet and e-mail. However, we need to tap into the potential of technologies by introducing modern products and services, including the opportunity offered by existing postal infrastructure in every district of Zambia. There is need to turn the postal offices, countrywide, into centres for access to public services electronically under the e-mail governance programme. We are introducing postal banking, including in rural areas, as a means of serving the un-banked masses in the countryside.

 Mr Speaker, the justification for this Bill is that:
(i) while the postal sub-sector relied heavily on physical mail which is declining, the benefits of ICT offer greater benefits to the postal sub-sector through the transformation of post offices into public access points. Already, the recently opened post offices in Solwezi and at the Copperbelt University (CBU) are testimony of the readiness for this transformation. However, this needs a legal framework that can create a greater impact on our society;

(ii) the regulation of the postal sub-sector will be the responsibility of the Communications Authority, taking over from the ministry. The ministry will now focus on policy matters for the postal sub-sector; and

(iii) it will create a platform for the sector to grow by accommodating new services and products as well as new players in the sector.

Mr Speaker, once this is Bill enacted, it will be expected that the following positive results will arise:

(i) the empowerment and strengthening of the Communications Authority to regulate the postal sub-sector as is the practice in the region such as in Tanzania;

(ii) allow for new players in the market while ensuring that rural areas are not      disadvantaged by the new development;

(iii) take advantage of the network of post offices by offering and extending financial services, including banking; and

(iv) introduce electronic communication services within the postal network, including delivery of public services electronically.

Mr Speaker, the context of this Bill is that Zambia has developed the National Information and Communication Technology Policy which was launched on 28th March, 2007. The policy provides for the transformation of the postal network into points of service for electronic communications, including internet and e-mail. Further, the policy recognises the strategic nature of the postal network in offering new products and services such as banking and financial services as well as serving as a point of access to public services envisaged under the e-governance programme.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, lastly, the Bill is in no way controversial. Therefore, it deserves the support of the House as many hon. Members have overwhelmed my office with requests for modern post offices in various constituencies. I appeal to this august House to support the Bill so that we create a postal network that responds to the needs of our people, especially in the rural areas.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, your Committee were tasked to consider the Postal Services Bill, 2009. I intend to be brief in presenting this report.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, during their deliberations, observed an anomaly in Part III of the Bill. The Postal Services Bill was meant to repeal the Postal Services Act and provide the regulatory oversight in the provision of postal services. However, the Bill also provides for the establishment of the Postal Services Corporation. This is an anomaly because statutory bodies are created by separate Acts of Parliament and are not provided for in regulatory legislation. Your Committee recommend that the Postal Services Corporation Act should stand on its own.

Mr Speaker, let me bring the attention of the House to Clause 54 Sub-section 1, which states:

“A money order, postal order or other document issued under section fifty-two shall be treated as a bank note or an order for the payment of money and a valuable security within the meaning of any law relating to forgery or theft.”

Sir, when money is sent from one town to the other, it has been a common practice that it cannot be accessed by the recipient. The excuse has always been the lack of money and it takes a number of days before the money is availed to the recipient. Your Committee feel that the failure to provide this service has caused great inconvenience to the recipient, especially in the remote areas of Zambia where the recipient has no room to seek legal redress.

Sir, consumers need protection. It also goes without saying that the period the money is withheld in the post office and is used for other activities does not attract interest. Your Committee, therefore, recommend that withholding of money by the postal services provider should be an offence.

Mr Speaker, your Committee express gratitude to the various stakeholders who gave valuable information on the Bill.  Allow me to place on record the fact that the hon. Members of your Committee worked tirelessly to consider the three Bills that were referred to them on 15th July, 2009. Hon. Members put in their best and made useful contributions. This made my work as Chairperson easy and I am indebted to them.

Sir, your Committee thank you for affording them the opportunity to consider these Bills. Lastly, gratitude goes to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services and guidance given to your Committee during the consideration of the three Bills.
 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all hon. Members for their overwhelming support of this Bill.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 6th September, 2009.




THE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICES (Emoluments) (Amendment) BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.


Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.


Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.


Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Constitutional Offices (Emoluments) (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Presidential Emoluments (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Emoluments) (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Zambia Tanzania Pipeline (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Third Readings on Wednesday, 5th August, 2009.


The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Zambia Law Development Commission (Amendment) Bill, 2009.




The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1908 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 5th August, 2009.