DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 7th August, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_____

ANNOUNCEMENTS

CONSTRUCTION OF CONSTITUENCY OFFICES

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that the National Assembly has been implementing Parliamentary Reforms over the last decade. One of the corner stones of our reforms is to improve Member-Constituent relations. This entails increasing the interaction between the constituencies and their hon. Members of Parliament. I am sure you are aware that all the 150 constituency offices have been established in rented accommodation.

Unfortunately, some of these offices are not, particularly, suitable as office accommodation. Besides, the arrangement of renting offices has threatened the sustainability of operating these offices.

Hon. Members, it was in view of the above that it was felt prudent that the National Assembly construct offices in all the 150 constituencies. In this regard, an initial four offices are earmarked to be constructed in 2009 with financial support from the Government. The construction of offices in the remaining constituencies will be done in subsequent years.

The location of all these offices is not in doubt. The Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has led the way. These offices shall be located at the nomination centres in each constituency where each one of you was nominated for membership of this House by your political parties. The commission has done its work and those are not only ideal, but central locations in many respects.

  I now wish to inform the House that yesterday, Thursday, 6th August, 2009, I laid a foundation stone at the first office to be constructed at Rufunsa Constituency Office.

Mr Chipungu raised his hand.

 Laughter

Mr Speaker: During this occasion, I expressed appreciation to the Government of the Republic of Zambia for the continued support rendered to the constituency offices project and making this a reality. The tender for the construction of the offices was awarded to the National Housing Authority. The other three offices to be constructed simultaneously with the Rufunsa Office are at Chasefu, Masaiti…

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker:… and Mwembeshi.

Laughter

 Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I emphasise that, lest we should forget, the criterion for locating these offices must follow the pattern established by the ECZ namely; the centre in the constituency where nominations have been done. This will ensure easy access by the majority of the constituents.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_____

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 11th August, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any.

Mr Speaker: Order! The House will follow.

Mr Kunda: This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the remaining stages of some of the Bills that have been presented before the House.

On Wednesday, 12th August, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will discuss a Private Members’ Motion to be moved by the hon. Member for Livingstone Central Parliamentary Constituency, entitled:

    ‘Exemption of Districts that Generate Power from Paying Wheeling Charges.’

Thereafter, the House will consider the remaining stages of any Bill before it.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 13th August, 2009, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any and, thereafter, consider the remaining stages of any outstanding Bills. Then, the House will proceed with any outstanding business that may have been presented to it earlier in the week. 

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 14th August, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider any outstanding business before it and the remaining stages of any Bills on the Floor.

Sir, on this day, all things being equal, I intend to move a Motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders in order to enable the House complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and, thereafter, adjourn sine die.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

PRIVATISATION OF ZAMTEL

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, allow me to thank you for the opportunity to issue a comprehensive statement on the process of the privatisation of Zambia Telecommunications Limited (ZAMTEL).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: I appreciate the need to keep this august House informed on the developments regarding ZAMTEL as you directed.

Sir, I wish to give a background to the developments that led to the Government deciding to sell up to 75 per cent shareholding and retain 25 per cent in ZAMTEL. 

Mr Speaker, for over a decade, the Government has been exploring various ways of strengthening the operations of ZAMTEL and addressing its long standing problems. As such, the privatisation of ZAMTEL has been on the Government’s agenda since then. 

Sir, you may, therefore, wish to note that over this period a number of decisions have been made regarding ZAMTEL. In particular, Cabinet, at its meeting held on 2nd September, 1998, directed that the Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA) critically study ZAMTEL and recommend an appropriate mode of sale and shareholding structure. Further, Cabinet, on 11th January, 1999, directed that the ZAMTEL Board of Directors offer up to 20 per cent shares to a minority shareholder and that the Government retain management rights in ZAMTEL.

However, the decision to float the 20 per cent shares failed due to a number of factors which included:

(i)    the 20 per cent shareholding without management control was unattractive to the private sector, particularly considering that the private investor was expected to recapitalise the company;

(ii)    the 20 per cent shareholding only attracted investors who did not have the requisite technical and financial strength;

(iii)    the stock exchange rules only allowed an initial float of a minimum 25 per cent share; and

(iv)    the continued ownership of the Government of a controlling stake made such an offer unattractive.

Mr Speaker, on 24th September, 2002, Cabinet suspended the privatisation of state-owned enterprises including ZAMTEL. Cabinet further decided to commercialise ZAMTEL. Notwithstanding the decision to commercialise, ZAMTEL continued to under perform while experiencing financial and operational challenges.

ZAMTEL Performance

Sir, the under performance by ZAMTEL is best illustrated in relative subscriber numbers. While the two private operators in Zambia have well over 3.5 million subscribers between them, ZAMTEL has fewer than 200,000 mobile customers. In spite of its monopoly status in the fixed line market, the company has only managed to attract fewer than 100,000 fixed and fixed-wireless subscribers over the last forty years. Indeed, since 2006, it has lost over 10,000 subscribers. In terms of tax revenues to the Government, the private operators over the past five years, have contributed a total of K1.4 trillion to the Treasury, representing a steady rise from K100 billion in 2004 to K500 billion in 2008. On the other hand, ZAMTEL owes the Government over K300 billion in unremitted tax dues.

Mr Speaker, despite the poor subscriber numbers, the company has maintained a cost base that is out of proportion with its commercial performance. In the financial years 2007 and 2008, staff costs – generated as a result of the company’s more than 2,500 workforce – accounted for over 70 per cent of revenues. ZAMTEL employs almost four times as many people as its largest private competitor, and yet it has a much smaller customer base. To set this in context, in the Telecoms sector it is normal to compare companies’ relative efficiency on the basis of subscribers per employee. Zain Zambia has around 3,100 subscribers per employee. SAFARICOM in Kenya has over 6,000. The average for Sub-Sahara African Telecoms Operators is 586 subscribers per employee. ZAMTEL has a dismal 110 subscribers per employee.

As a result of its disproportionate cost base and inadequate commercial performance, ZAMTEL’s profitability has declined sharply. From 2006, the company’s profit margins have fallen, at a time when other competitors in the Zambian market have been enjoying substantial and sustained improvements in profitability.

Sir, ZAMTEL is currently unable to deliver cost effective and market responsive products and services as required by customers. ZAMTEL in its current state cannot compete favourably in a market where other players are enjoying significant market share. The company is burdened with liabilities of over US $125 million as at December, 2008 and has an annual operational deficit of approximately US $17 million. The company has continued to experience significant operational difficulties, including major disruptions to international voice and non-voice services and in 2008, it experienced serious industrial unrest.

Seeking for a Solution

Mr Speaker, in January, 2008, the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply, recommended to Parliament that the Government had to urgently restructure, recapitalise and reposition ZAMTEL to compete with other stakeholders in the provision of telecommunications services.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observed that ZAMTEL, in its current form, was insolvent. At that time, ZAMTEL owed K600 billion comprising short-term liabilities, National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) pensions, hire purchase deductions and other dues and unpaid tax obligations to ZRA, obligations under its finance leases and long-term loans. The Committee further recommended that the ministry should find a lasting solution to the country’s strategic asset, ZAMTEL.

Mr Speaker, accordingly on 13th May, 2008, instructions were issued to the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Commerce, Trade and Industry to, among other things, recapitalise and restructure ZAMTEL and find a strategic equity partner. It is against this background that the Ministry of Communications and Transport stepped up the efforts to find a lasting solution to the challenges faced by ZAMTEL. Some of the options considered were:

(i)    immediate change of management and recapitalisation by the Government. This option was not seen to be viable because the national Treasury did not have sufficient resources to recapitalise ZAMTEL;

(ii)    maintain the status quo. This option was seen not to be in the interest of the nation as it would have led to the liquidation of ZAMTEL;

(iii)    public floatation on the stock exchange. This was not a viable option due to ZAMTEL’s poor financial condition;

(iv)    management contract. This was not viable as it would not raise the requisite capital;

(v)    break up of ZAMTEL and sale of the divisions. This option was considered, given the interest by some potential investors who wanted to buy the mobile components (Cell Z) off ZAMTEL. However, this option would lead to the abandonment of other divisions of ZAMTEL resulting in mass unemployment and disruption to other services, especially the public switched telephone network (PSTN), land lines and internet. Again, this option was deemed not to be viable; and

(vi)    introduce a strategic equity partner in ZAMTEL to bring in new technology, inject fresh capital, restructure the company and improve the provision of telecommunication services in the country. This was found to be the most suitable option.

Mr Speaker, whilst these options were being considered by the ministry, short-term measures that included cost reductions, enhanced debt collection as well as limiting debt contraction, through loans and other instruments, were undertaken by management to ensure that ZAMTEL remained in business. However, these measures fell far below the optimum levels of operating in a competitive environment.

The ministry, therefore, made consultations with key stakeholders, including the board, management and staff of ZAMTEL, ZAMTEL union leadership and the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA). It was clear from the consultations that the current business model, including the financing options, was not sustainable. The option of engaging a private equity partner was found to be the most viable.

Mr Speaker, this House will recall that in a ministerial statement issued in September, 2008, it was stated that the ministry was examining the options available for ZAMTEL. Arising from this statement, the ministry received numerous inquiries from telecommunications companies from all over the world. Most of these were interested in buying ZAMTEL. However, the Government was unable to enter into any commercial agreements with these companies due to the need to properly evaluate ZAMTEL and enable Cabinet make an informed decision. This being the case, the primary focus for the ministry was to ensure that a detailed evaluation was undertaken immediately.

In order to fully understand ZAMTEL’s position, finances and prospects, the Government engaged the services of RP Capital to conduct a detailed assessment.

Hon. Member: Not RB?

Professor Lungwangwa: It is RP.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: The assessment revealed the state of ZAMTEL, which included its operations, financials, human resources, technology, legal and other issues. The assessment also covered the Information Communications Technology (ICT) sector in Zambia. This was done in order to precisely define the status of ZAMTEL so as to set out the options going forward. Cabinet used the results of the assessment as the primary basis for considering the best option for ZAMTEL.

Mr Speaker, the report of the consultants was presented to the Cabinet Committee of Ministers on ZAMTEL. The consultants recommended that in order to avert the collapse of ZAMTEL, the Government had to look for an equity partner who could buy 75 per cent shareholding in ZAMTEL and that the Government had to retain 25 per cent equity in the company.

The committee studied the report and presented a joint Cabinet memo to the Economic Restructuring and Development Committee of Cabinet (ERDC). The ERDC approved the recommendations of the Cabinet committee on ZAMTEL. The recommendations of the ERDC were subsequently approved and adopted by the full Cabinet. In addition, Cabinet directed that the ZDA undertakes the implementation of the recommendations in accordance with the ZDA Act No. 11 of 2006.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude my statement to this august House, let me dwell a little on the process. 

Following the directive issued to the ZDA, it is expected that the ZDA will implement this decision in line with the ZDA Act. This will broadly include:

(i)    public invitation for bids;

(ii)    inviting all interested parties to conduct their due diligence;

(iii)    issuing  bidding documents to interested parties;

(iv)    evaluating and selecting the preferred bidder;

(v)    entering into negotiations with the preferred bidder; and

(vi)    reporting to Cabinet the final terms, prior to signing by the Government.

Mr Speaker, in all this process, Zambians are at liberty to participate on an equal basis with all the other interested parties.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the majority stake will be offered only to qualified partners. A qualified partner being an organisation of any nationality, including Zambian, which demonstrates that it has the financial capacity and management experience to turn ZAMTEL into a powerful competitor in the ICT market and do so in a way that is respectful of and sensitive to the needs of Zambia. I must also emphasise that the Government will retain a minimum of 25 per cent shareholding and a number of key rights associated with shareholding. At an appropriate time, this shareholding will be offered to Zambians on the stock exchange.

Mr Speaker, I would, therefore, like to appeal to all countrymen to refrain from making statements …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aaah!

Professor Lungwangwa: … that undermine …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … the integrity or credibility of the process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aaah! Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: It is our intention to maximise the benefits to our people ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Professor Lungwangwa: … through the privatisation of this national asset.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: We, in no way, seek to undermine the security of this nation …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: … as some have suggested. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: In fact, in privatising ZAMTEL, Zambia stands to strengthen its security …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … through modern technologies as opposed to living in the 60s.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, with the right partner, …

Mr Sichilima: Tell them!

Professor Lungwangwa: … ZAMTEL will be able to leverage far more value from its existing assets, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … and, equally importantly, invest in new assets. We believe that post privatisation ZAMTEL will have built out its mobile network such that it is on the same scale and capacity as its competitors. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Drink water.

Professor Lungwangwa: It would have completed the national optic fibre backbone and connected to the sub-sea fibre network that delivers a massive increase in available bandwidth and it would have completed the upgrade of all fixed network exchanges such that voice service quality increases and fixed broadband services become available to the majority of our people.

Mr Speaker, although the list of potential benefits is long, the one that is of greatest importance is the surge in the availability of and speed of internet connectivity to Zambian citizens.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Today, our whole country is served by an internet connection that is equivalent in capacity to that enjoyed by a single household in South Korea. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Professor Lungwangwa: Internet access costs are amongst the highest in the world. Surely, this is not acceptable.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the privatisation of incumbent telecommunications companies is not only happening in Zambia. It has been successfully undertaken in several countries across the world, including Britain, Cape Verde, Djibouti, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Madagascar, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, South Africa, Seychelles, Tanzania and Uganda.

Interruptions 

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to give a most recent example of telecommunications privatisation applied in Ghana very successfully.

 In August 2006, the Government of Ghana announced its intention to privatise Ghana Telecom which, like ZAMTEL, was the state-owned fixed and mobile phone operator. At the time of the announcement, Ghana Telecom was somewhat larger than ZAMTEL is today, with around 400,000 fixed line subscribers and 1.3 million mobile phone subscribers. Nonetheless, like ZAMTEL, as a parastatal organisation it was struggling to compete with its private sector rivals and its financial performance was deteriorating. In August 2008, the Government announced that it had successfully concluded the privatisation, selling a 70 per cent stake in Ghana Telecom to Vodafone for a total consideration of US$900 million. The Government retained a 30 per cent stake. 

Mr Speaker, since re-branding and re-launching the company in April of this year, Vodafone has managed to add 800,000 new subscribers and is forecast to achieve a 200 per cent increase in revenues by the end of this year.

Mr Speaker, the privatisation of the company is aimed at addressing the current challenges that ZAMTEL is experiencing. I would, therefore, request that the nation remains patient as the Government seeks a lasting solution …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: … that will prevent the total collapse of ZAMTEL; …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … secure the interests of over 2,500 employees; recapitalise ZAMTEL and improve the provision of telecommunication services in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, we must bear in mind that the privatisation of ZAMTEL is a commercial transaction, which is to be managed and negotiated as such. We must no longer allow our hearts and emotions to distract us from achieving the best outcome for our people. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Let us not go back to the 1990s when we undertook management buy-outs which did not add value and were a failure. In this case, we would like to get the best deal possible that will benefit the people, help transform the company and revolutionise the ICT sector in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free …

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! … to ask questions …

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: … on points of clarification on the statement that has been made by the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this rare opportunity to contribute considering that this is a very important statement that the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport has delivered.

 Sir, the main Opposition parties in the country have given notice to the would-be buyers of the 75 per cent shares that, come 2011, if or when they win the elections, they will nationalise ZAMTEL.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: Does the Government not see that this statement by the Opposition has, in fact, undermined the process of the sale of ZAMTEL in that interested parties may get scared of buying the 75 per cent shares in the company? Furthermore, does the Government not see the need at this point in time to actually engage the Opposition in an effective manner so that we move together as a country in selling ZAMTEL?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, if my memory serves me right, I remember …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: … the late Hon. Kasonde, then hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, stating that the economic reforms that Zambia had entered into would not be unscrambled. Therefore, what we are making are the right decisions, at the right time, for the good of our country and wellbeing of the affected families. I do not see how irresponsible statements coming from certain quarters can unscramble what is good for the country. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: I want to warn hon. Members to refrain from making irritating interjections. This House prides itself in a calm manner that it deals with public affairs before it. An hon. Member is free to interject, yes, it is democratic, but not in an irritating manner.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, RP Capital did the valuation of ZAMTEL assets and the report has not been published in order for us to know the worth of the company’s assets. Would the hon. Minister indicate to this House when the report will be published for the public to know how much ZAMTEL’s assets are worth.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I have indicated in the ministerial statement that this is a commercial transaction and as such we should not jeopardise it by making documents that are crucial to the transaction process available at this stage. However, at an appropriate time, as it has been indicated, the public will know.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister bearing in mind the employ subscriber ratio, what proportion of these subscribers is made up of Government ministries and departments? How much did these subscribers owe ZAMTEL at the time the decision was made to sell it? May I also know how much of this debt has since been written off as bad debt.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, clearly the hon. Member for Mufulira is asking for details on subscribers of ZAMTEL from the Government‘s point of view and how much debt they owe the company. I do not have the details here so I am unable to give any clarification on that particular issue.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, in appreciating the hon. Minister’s comprehensive statement, may we know how internet services will actually be faster and available to most of our rural communities like Lukulu District where we are still facing challenges even with the rural electrification programme. 

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, allow me to dwell a little bit more on that question because I think it is an important issue for our constituencies. As I indicated, the whole of our country is currently at a level of internet broadband connectivity which is equal to a household in South Korea. That is clearly unacceptable and those of us who browse the internet almost everyday are aware of the frustrations we go through as a result of the poor or low capacity of the internet broadband connectivity in our country. I think this retards business and efficiency even in governance and other sectors. This is one of the reasons why the Government is seeking for an equity partner in ZAMTEL so that we can get an investor that is able to inject money and technology into it, restructure the company and bring it to the cutting edge of technology …

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: … and enable the company to compete with any other competitors in this transformative age.

Mr Speaker, I would like hon. Members of the House to ask themselves what transformation each and every one of us should undergo in this transformative age because this is important.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, clearly understanding how the ICT sector operates today is very important to each and every one of us in governance.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: When ZAMTEL is privatised with the right equity partner, we should be able to see a spread of internet connectivity to our respective constituencies. We should also be able to see the un-served and underserved areas enjoying connectivity and at the same time enjoying mobile telephone communication that is accessible and cheaper.

Mr Speaker, allow me again…

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Professor Lungwangwa: … as I am on the Floor to state that with the current optic fibre backbone that Zamtel is currently engaged in, we should be able to see Zambia connected to the submarine sub-cable connectivity link. This will make internet and broadband connectivity efficient and cheaper to the greater majority of our people. The Government’s concern is to push the ICT sector and, in turn, move the country forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to follow up on the question of the hon. Member for Mufulira. What she was asking in plain English was that was it not the Government…

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Dr Scott: … that killed Zamtel by placing demands on it for the provision of services that were not commercial and were not and are still not paid for? That is what she was asking. The second half of the question is that is the new strategic partner going to tolerate providing ministries with services and other non-commercial things without being paid?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the august House should critically examine the parastatal model. The parastatal model of doing business is not tenable. I think Hon. Guy Scott, is living in the 60s or 70s. 

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the Government did not kill Zamtel. It is the failure of the parastatal model. 

Mr Speaker, may I ask my colleagues in this House why, for example, they have not seen an annual report of Zamtel for a number of years?

Hon. Opposition Members: It is because of you!

Professor Lungwangwa: This is as a result of the failure of the parastatal model. This is the main reason why the Government is now reforming the parastatal model so that we have a model that is business like and able to generate resources in order to have companies that can compete on the market. The ICT industry is a lucrative industry and, clearly, when we find an equity partner in Zamtel, we should be able to see a viable and dynamic company. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I want to remind the august House that these ministerial statements are extremely important. It appears to me that certain hon. Members of the House are unaware that the main beneficiaries of these statements are, in fact, the people of Zambia. Therefore, if an ordinary hon. Member decides that he/she is not part of Zambia, the best they can do is to innocently remain silent in this House so that those who wish to ask questions, which are of interest to the people of Zambia, may freely do so. Consequentially, the hon. Ministers that answer these questions may also be free to do so.

Sometimes, I even wonder where our television networks are. If there is anytime that the television stations can demonstrate what this House is doing, this is the time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The time for ministerial statements, questions and answers, and the time for His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, but the cameras are not here. We do not see them at those crucial times.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister who has given quite a comprehensive statement on the Floor help to dispel the misconception that, in fact, the privatisation of Zamtel has come stromgly at the initiative of President Rupiah Bwezani Banda’s regime when, in fact, it was already part of the privatisation programme since 1996.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is exactly what the ministerial statement gave as a background to the current privatisation process. It was indicated in the ministerial statement that the process goes all the way back to 1998 when it was decided that a 20 per cent shareholding be offloaded to an equity partner. The problems that were connected with the initial privatisation process were indicated in the ministerial statement, especially the fact that it was not in line with the stock exchange provisions of 25 per cent and that the continued existence of the Government control as the larger stake holder made it unattractive to the private investors. 

Therefore, the process goes way back to 1998. Of course, in 2000, the privatisation process was suspended. Given the current problems in which Zamtel is finding itself, the Government has resurrected that process so that Zamtel’s privatisation process can be undertaken in the interest of the 2,500 workers who, if this process is not undertaken, will find themselves on the streets. This is in the interest of those workers. 

At the same time, it is in the interest of the nation as we undertake the challenge of developing the ICT sector which is cardinal to our economic survival as a nation.

Therefore, this privatisation process is extremely important for the good of our people and that is why well-meaning organisations like the National Union of Communications Workers, Zambia Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ZACCI), Economic Association of Zambia (EAZ) and many other well-meaning organisations who can see and appreciate clearly the vision of the Government, have come out and supported this important process for the good of our country. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I want to firstly state that the friendly regime of the Chinese Government thrive on parastatals which he is condemning.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, why has the hon. Minister mentioned to this House and the nation the liabilities of ZAMTEL and conveniently omitted the assets of ZAMTEL if it is not in the interest of the companies that will be the bidders of ZAMTEL?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Monze Central who, of course, is a lawyer understands very well that behind the assets is the question of how those assets were acquired. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Why do you talk about that?

Professor Lungwangwa: What is behind the assets? Behind the assets, of course, are long-term and current liabilities. Clearly, if you look at the assets versus the liabilities of ZAMTEL, the conclusion is that the company is technically insolvent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Let me guide the House. It is impossible, as you can see, for each one of you – I have seen more than twenty hon. Members still wanting to ask questions – to have this House spare its precious time on one item so that you can speak. There is another ministerial statement which could be as engaging as this one and we still have His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice’s Question Time, Questions for Oral Answer and seven Orders of the Day dealing with legislation. All these are important functions. I have to decide that we cannot continue in this fashion. Otherwise, we will wind up business on one item and I cannot allow that.

What I will do is to ask, maybe, two hon. Members who strongly believe or understand that they are going to ask a question that has not been asked before, not that they want to hear their voices in this Chamber…

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members indicated to ask.

Hon. UPND Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order! I am still on the Floor. All of you should resume your seats. All the questions are strategic depending on where you are.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I want two very useful questions to be asked.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, it is clear that Zambians are not against the privatisation of ZAMTEL, but it is the value of the shares that have to be sold. Do you not think that RP Capital might have connived with the would-be buyers to undervalue ZAMTEL assets and, at the same time, recommend to the Government that the company could only be viable if it sold 75 per cent of the shares?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there is no conniving. A recommendation was made. The Government looked at it critically and accepted that, indeed, a 75 per cent stake shareholding to an equity partner would make an attractive offer to that partner.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I profoundly thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask this fundamental and strategic question.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, in asking this question, I just want to state that I am asking it as a person coming from a background of having managed communications and telecommunications assets for the entire army and liaising with ZAMTEL for the purpose of defending our country as head of that department in the army. At the core of the strategic defence initiative of any state is the amount of space communication and telecommunications occupy which is, in some instances, between 60 and 70 per cent. Given the strategic defence value of ZAMTEL to the overall strategic defence of our country, Zambia, and the important role ZAMTEL plays to the tactical and strategic defence capability of the Zambia Army and Zambia Air Force and given that you have decided to sale the sovereignty of our country out of the window to the highest bidder, are you, therefore, prepared to provide a backbone facility to the Zambia Army and Zambia Air Force in order – and I am talking from experience – to enhance all important defence capability of our forces for the defence of our mother country, Zambia…

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka … in view of the fact that we are already aware that this Government has already exposed the defence and security of State House to the highest bidder following the exposure of the tunnels? Are you doing the same through the sale of ZAMTEL? Are you throwing away the sovereignty of this country, Zambia? This is my strategic question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, it is very clear that the hon. Member for Namwala, who happens to be my son, like all sons do, is living in the past.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, voice and non-voice connectivity, today, is transmitted in different forms. It is transmitted via satellite, for example, on satellite phones, the internet and in different pathways. 

Clearly, the world has become complex as a result of the ever changing information communication technology. The challenge, now, in terms of security, is focusing on monetary and regulatory measures which are what, for example, the Bills before this House are intended to achieve in order to strengthen our security systems so that we are able or they are able to monitor and see what is happening in the cyberspace in the complex world of interconnectivity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Sir, even when you are in your own private home, you can be seen or heard by certain complex technology.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Therefore, what is the challenge? Our challenge is, of course, to ensure that we provide up-to-date, on a continuous basis, modern technology to our security forces. This Government is very much aware and alive to those issues and that is why the Bills are before this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I have also permitted the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services to make a ministerial statement.

VIOLENCE AGAINST JOURNALISTS

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Speaker, last week, you ordered me to make a ministerial statement on the violence against journalists as reported in the Media in the recent past.

Mr Speaker, you directed as follows:

“I task the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, with regard to the Media harassment, to come to this House and tell us what the cause of the conflict between the cadres of the political party and their media personnel is. 

“Given this directive, I would like to call on the Executive to be proactive. I hear a lot of things from abroad in general, and overseas, in particular. The impression is that the Republic is under threat.”

Mr Speaker, all forms of violence against any member of the citizenry, especially over issues of diversity in political beliefs are deplorable and contrary to the spirit of democracy.

THE GOVERNMENT’S POSITION ON FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.

Sir, let me speak on the position of the Government on the freedom of the Press. I wish to state that the Government’s commitment to freedom of the Press is unquestionable and unshakable. The evidence is too conspicuous to belabour. It will suffice, however, to point out that, among other measures, this can be seen in the Government’s policy of liberalising the Media which has resulted in the multiplicity of vibrant private media houses, both print and electronic. The fact that we now have forty privately-owned radio stations and five television stations and several newspapers and magazines in the country is testimony that the Government of His Excellency, President Rupiah Bwezani Banda, is delivering on his promise and commitment …

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … to good governance, transparency and accountability in entrenching our democracy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: It is heartening to note that the Media has also continued to play its role in the democratisation process of our country by keeping our people informed about the various policies and programmes of the Government. This enables our people to make informed decisions in support or against such policies or programmes. It is for this reason that we remain committed to media reforms and growth that will lead to increased media houses and coverage and enhance public access to information.

THE GOVERNMENT’S POSITION ON VIOLENCE AGAINST JOURNALISTS

Mr Speaker, let me dwell on the Government’s position on the violence against journalists. May I, now, turn to the events of the recent past in which the nation has witnessed incidences of violence against journalists in their course of duty. The Government condemns, in the strongest terms, the reported violence against the men and women in the Media. It is criminal. It is uncalled for and, indeed, unacceptable.

Sir, on countless occasions, Government leaders up to the Head of State, His Excellency, President Rupiah Banda, are on record as having condemned violence against journalists regardless of differences in social or political persuasions. During his very first Press Conference as President, at State House, on 15th November, 2008, President Banda personally intervened in defence of a Reuters correspondent when some people in the audience jeered and booed the reporter for asking the President a question which apparently displeased them.

On 26th May, 2009, President Rupiah Bwezani Banda, through the Special Assistant for Press and Public Relations, wrote to The Post newspaper on the continued harassment of their journalists by MMD cadres and I shall lay this o the Table.

Mr Speaker, I wish to read this letter for purposes of this House and the nation to know and I quote:

    
        “SH/5/7/3

Mr Amos Malupenga
Managing Editor 
        The Post Newspaper
        36 Bwinjimfumu 
        LUSAKA
    
        Dear Mr Malupenga

RE: CONTINUED HARASSMENT OF YOUR JOURNALISTS BY MMD CADRES

“I wish to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 6 May 2009, addressed to His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah B. Banda on the above mentioned subject.

“Your letter has been passed on to me with instructions to respond. I, therefore, advise that as indicated in your letter, His Excellency the President’s position on condemning violence has not changed. Be assured that there are no orders to intimidate The Post or any other media institution. It is unfortunate that our cadres are suspected or suspected members have threatened violence. 

“His Excellency the President will do everything possible to stop violence. Be assured that the attacks have no blessings from the Party.

Yours Faithfully

Dickson Jere
SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, PRESS AND PUBLIC RELATIONS.”

Mr Speaker, as recently as 30th July, 2009 and Tuesday, this week, among other occasions, President Banda again condemned the reported acts of violence against journalists and called for an immediate end to the vice. 

Media bodies including the Press Association of Zambia (PAZA), Media Institute of Southern Africa (MISA) and Zambia Union of Journalists (ZUJ), are on record as having acknowledged and commended President Rupiah Banda for condemning violence against journalists.

Sir, clearly, these incidences are not the monopoly of the ruling party. Hon. Members will recall the beating up of Times of Zambia reporters Richard Mulonga and Abel Mbozi by University of Zambia students, on 24 May and June 2006 respectively.

Further, Thomas Nsama of The Post newspaper was beaten up by the Patriotic Front (PF) cadres in Chawama,…

PF Members interrupted.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha:…Lusaka on 14th April, 2006. 

Mr Speaker, in August, the same year, Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) reporters, Effie Mphande and Abraham Banda were also beaten up by the PF cadres in Chawama at a rally addressed by the PF Leader, Mr Michael Sata. More recently, Effie Mphande and Paul Kaluba were attacked by marketeers at Soweto Market, accusing them of inciting the Government to evict them from the market.

MMD Position on Violence Against Journalists

Mr Speaker, let me, also, deal with the position of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) party on violence against journalists. On its part, through the National Chairperson, Hon. Michael Mabenga, the National Secretary, Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba and the Provincial Chairperson, Mr Cleophas Chimembe, the MMD has strongly condemned these acts even where they involve the Ruling Party. I must add that these condemnations are a serious commitment by the Government and the Ruling Party to the enforcement and maintenance of peace in the nation in the conduct of politics and in pursuance of party objectives.

Mr Speaker, from the foregoing, it is clear that the Government upholds violence against journalists and against any citizen for that matter. The MMD also abhors violence against journalists and any citizen. 

Police Response

Sir, let me draw the attention of the House to the Zambia Police Service whose officers are alleged to have done nothing to protect journalists when they were being harassed in the recent incident at the Lusaka International Airport. The Zambia Police Force is committed to providing high quality service by upholding and applying the law firmly and fairly to all. President Banda has, personally, called for adherence to firmness and fairness in the enforcement of the law. 

With regard to the airport incident, I wish to inform the House that contrary to The Post newspaper that police were spectators to the violence, in fact, they, actually, intervened by calming the situation. The intervention of the senior officers may have been inconspicuous because they do not get involved personally, but use their operatives in such situations.

Mr Speaker, right now, the police are doing everything possible not only to bring the culprits to book, but also for the culprits to appear in court. 

Factors at Play

Sir, what are the factors at play in all this violence against journalists? A critical and objective look at the reported violence against journalists brings out a number of factors at play. It is important that this is understood and appreciated if we are to find lasting and amicable solutions in the problem. The only way forward is for us to face the truth. Jesus said, “the truth shall set you free.”

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: We must free ourselves from this scourge. As the saying goes, “its takes two to tangle.” In this particular case, we have the media practitioners on one hand and some members of society on the other. The contention seems to be premised on the grounds that while the media practitioners feel they have the duty to report incidents as they happen without restrictions, some members of society on the other hand find reports by media houses bias, unfair and insulting to their leaders…

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha:… and, indeed, to the elders in society. They also find such reporting against the customs and culture in Zambia leading to some of the confrontations we have witnessed.

Mr Speaker, let me sound a warning, however, to our media personnel when commenting on foreign Heads of State of their culture or, indeed, on governance. It does not help Zambia’s relations with other states to suggest that the visit to our country by a Head of State is for sharing women, as was suggested by a caller allowed by Sky FM Radio Station, recently, or, indeed, that the nurses from a certain country are prostitutes. This was also from the Sky FM Radio Station. Such media reports naturally provoke reactions and, unfortunately, violent ones in some cases. Such irresponsible reporting will bring animosity between the people of that country and Zambia. Imagine, if one of the Zambians was injured and was to be cared for by nurses who have been called prostitutes in that country, what sort of reception would the Zambian get? 

Mr Speaker, this is bound to bring about tension between Zambia and other countries. It will affect the position of Zambians in those countries. These confrontations, as the House may have observed, cut across the entire political party spectrum and extend to non-political institutions and situations. Violence against journalists should not, therefore, be viewed as one sponsored by a political party and, certainly, not by the Ruling Party. They should, thus, be seen in a broader context of media freedom vis-a-vis its corresponding responsibility, societal concerns and expectations. 

Mr Speaker, admittedly, freedom and responsible reporting can be highly controversial and subjective. The freedom that one must enjoy can become injurious when it is allowed to transgress that of others. Equally, what may be considered to be responsible reporting on the part of a given media practitioner or organisation may be considered highly irresponsible or offensive to others depending on the issue at stake. This is where a high level of judgment and professionalism on the part of the media is called in to inspire public confidence in fairness and objectivity. This is also where high level of judgment by the public, especially those in the political field, is called in to avoid reactions that provoke resentment and violence. We need sober minds and level headedness in what we say or do as well as in the new coverage of the same. For over reaction to what is published can be as bad as inciting or violence itself. Similarly, poor judgment of what to publish can also be as bad as inciting violence itself.

 In dealing with Mr Speaker’s directive, what the cause of conflict between cadres of the political party and the media personnel is, let me discuss. According to a  number of findings made during the trial of the media, after the genocide which claimed more than a million lives in Rwanda. I shall quote from the United Nations (UN) document No. 34 of 37, The Media and Rwanda Genocide and an article entitled, “the Challenges in Prosecuting Print Media for Incitement,”  dated, 8th April, 2009. I shall lay this document on the Table.

Mr Speaker, on the issue and media coverage of these pertaining to the Constitutional rights of freedom of expression, it is against this principle that this document refers to incitement of genocide as one that knocks against the right of freedom of expression and the need to counter propaganda and speeches that jeopardize the lives of people. It is significant to mention the mode used to incite the people was through print and radio publications. When the media take a deliberate path of painting an individual or a group of people bad in order that the rest can turn against them, this can incite responses or reactions that lead to violence.

In Rwanda, Kagura, a print publication, before and after the genocide is said to have printed images that enforce its message of morbid psychological antagonism of the Hutu masses against the Tutsis ethnic group. The UN document also refers to the Nurnber trial in which a Germany publicist, Julius Streicher  and head of Han Frirziche ethnic group also wrote to incite the killing of Jews.  

Mr Speaker, in the Zambian case, there is a consistent media attempt to identify President Banda and his Government and the MMD as enemies by use of falsehoods about him and the party. This provokes resentment and anger among his supporters.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, with regards to the issue of the genocide in Rwanda, a Radio Station, Radio Television Libre de Mille Collines (RTLM), a brain child of intellectuals, knew how to use the street language, the slang, observe jokes and play good music to push its tribal and racist message before the genocide. This station represents one of the most interesting political and media phenomena of the whole tragedy.  I would advise those in the media to study what this radio station did to destroy the lives of people in Rwanda. It was the source of such deep rooted hatred that it called the Tutsis Inyezi, meaning cockroaches. The Tutsis, being considered cockroaches, were exterminated. 

Mr Speaker, I draw a parallel here. Not long ago, Radio Ichengelo was calling the President of the Republic of Zambia, the hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament as Bakapoli, meaning pigs. 

Interruptions

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: I now want to turn to this august House’s debate on Reports of the Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services of 30th November, 2008. I just want to remind you, Sir, and the House by quoting from excerpts of this wonderful debate. 

Mr Speaker, even though many debated, I will quote only a few. The debate in this House by Hon, Ntundu went as follows:

“Mr Speaker, the other issue that I would like to talk about is the issue which has    been highlighted on Page 27 of your Committee’s Report concerning the re-introduction of the Freedom of Information Bill, which, I think, is very important. I am sure my colleagues on the other side of the House will agree with me that the information that we received during the previous campaign compels us to ensure that the Bill comes to the House so that the media can be regulated. 

“Sir, it is important that the Bill is brought in this House. I stand here as a very disappointed hon. Member of Parliament because of some sections of the media that took the role of campaign managers for certain political parties. Just wait, do not comment because I do not need any paper to win an election in Gwembe. 

“Mr Speaker, I am a disappointed hon. Member of Parliament because we believe that journalism has ethics, but the previous information that we were receiving from the media made us doubt whether there was professionalism in the journalism fraternity in Zambia. Do we need to send journalists back to school to learn the ethics of journalism for them to report correctly and effectively and not report lies or untruthful information? 

“I am trying to help the MMD, as a Government. This is the only country in the whole world where the media will insult the Government, including a Head of State and call it corrupt, stupid and stinking, but no action is taken, instead you are smiling and watching. What is your role as Government? We shall not help you to manage this country with such kinds of attitudes from some sections of the media, especially, The Post. The Post is a stinking Paper. It is useless. 

“Sir, I also would like to commend the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) for a job well done during the same period. I want to emphasise that from today, if we tolerate such kind of reporting and it continues to incite violence, the Government must arrest the people concerned. 

“I would like to emphasise that the MMD Government must be strong. We must not let the media ridicule the Government. I am not looking for a job from the MMD Government. If you have skeletons that you fear will be written about in The Post newspaper that is your own problem. What I am saying is that the Government must be strong to regulate and ensure that the Zambians are protected. We do not want violence. 

“Mr Speaker, lastly, I would like to encourage the Government to bring the Freedom of Information Bill to this House so that it is passed.”

Mr Speaker, I would like to quote another hon. Member, Hon. Faustina Sinyangwe who debated in this House: 

“Mr Speaker, one point I would like to talk about is that there is need for training for the people in the Community Radio Stations. While we appreciate that they do not make a lot of money, it is important that they train their people. Why do I say so? It is good to speak English or any other language, but that does not make you a professional. As a result, we have seen a lot of mistakes in their reporting. Sometimes, they report something that is just speculation and it agitates the country. Sometimes, they do it unknowingly because they do not have adequate training. The Government must make sure that we have a body that will regulate the Community Radio Stations. I agree with Hon. Ntundu on this point. 

“Mr Speaker, the reports that come out of the papers, sometimes, fall short of professionalism. It is a shame for a paper to report something in the paper one day only to have somebody refute ever having said it the following day. What are we hoping to achieve? We only have one Zambia and we have to protect it. We are not going to sit down in the name of the party or organisation while some people advance their own selfish interest to destroy this country. 

“Sir, I am sure we have seen newspapers before. We have seen how newspapers are reporting. I am disappointed that we have The Post newspaper in here.  Why should people react when they are not The Post newspaper?

“Mr Speaker, if you want people to respect you, you must also respect Governments of the day, whether, I want them or not. The people of Zambia have put them there. We must help them and do what is right to save mother Zambia. 

“Mr Speaker, I speak as I see it because God gave me brains. I do not work on someone else’s brains. I have seen that it is wrong when people start dying in this country because of bad reporting. Even the children of the people who are saying ‘Hear, hear!’ will die. We are trying to say that we need all the newspapers and the Community Radio Stations, but they should be guided. 

“Sir, we must see to it that we have ethics in every institution and in every profession. People must have their professional ethics that must be followed, unless we are saying that we have thrown caution to the wind. People admire this country. Why do they admire it? It is because we have been peaceful. We have had politicians in the past and we will continue to have them. We can have dissenting views, but this does not mean that we should fight or insult each other. We must talk in a normal manner. That is what we are asking for. There are people who are known for insulting and shouting at people. 

“We are not going to go to bed not sure whether there will be a war the next day. There are laws that should be followed and we have to follow them. It does not matter who is in the Government. I am speaking as a responsible citizen.” 

Mr Speaker, let me quote another hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Milupi.

Mr Speaker, let me have some water.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha drank some water.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hon. Milupi said:

“Mr Speaker, how possible is it that, first of all, before we come to Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), and I have no problem discussing anybody, it is right and proper for a media house to have a position. As we know, the print media can have a position which is called an editorial position in which they can favour even a political party and I have no problem only if this position is reflected in their editorial comment. How possible is it that you can have a newspaper whose comment day after day is against one particular candidate, all its letters to the editor are against one candidate, all its jokes are against one candidate and all its satirical writings are against one particular candidate?”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha:

“Mr Speaker, I speak as an honest human being and I think that was quite disgraceful.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: 

“The paper went to the extent of doctoring pictures where even amateurs like ourselves could see this particular picture in the paper was a cut and paste.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: 

“Several pictures were combined to display a certain position. I think this does not augur well with this nation country. Members of the press should seriously reflect that what we, as citizens, require is unfettered information so that when we see that information, we can make up our minds as to which side we support.”

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: 

“The situation referred to by the Chairperson in his comments about Radio Lyambai and the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE) in particular, arises from live phone-in programmes over which they have no control. However, anyone who feels injured can go live on the radio and vent out their frustrations, sometimes, in a very insulting manner. Even as we seek to be fair to the radio station, Mr Speaker, I think it right that we are also fair to the people who are insulted and, therefore, come up with a solution that will help those radio stations so that they have a fairer coverage. 

“In the civilised world, you cannot say certain things on a radio station without making yourself liable to litigation.”

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, in trying to end the few debates that I want to quote, I would like to quote Hon. Ngoma. He said:

“It is important that we are peaceful and those calls for peace are not just in the press or publicly pronounced, but also promoted in dark corners. Therefore, whosoever is calling for peace, even in privacy, should call for peace and not pull strings down.

“Mr Speaker, Rwanda is what it is today because in 1994, we had a terrible genocide and close to a million people were butchered when President Habyarimana’s plane was shattered. What followed was that the media was used to bring about untold anarchy and a lot of killings and so, even in this country, following the Presidential by-election, the media, as the fourth estate, will need to help us preserve peace. We are all Zambians. At the end of the day, as somebody debated, if the peace is not guarded jealously, it is our own children who will be killed. We only know of one country and that is Zambia. There is no other country we can go to. Therefore, the media, that is, both the private and public, need to help us. They will need to help us preserve this peace not create imaginary tension. It is very dangerous because, at the end of the day, we might forget as the consequences of violence will be too ghastly for us to contemplate as a country.”

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, let me make the last quote.

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I thank you, again, for this opportunity.

Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I had indicated that I wanted to make the last quotation from the debates. I would like to quote Hon. Sakwiba Sikota. He said:

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

“Because of the manner in which the press has behaved in this very House, I put forward arguments that the press was responsible enough to be able to regulate itself. I was able to fend off very vigorous arguments from various quarters because there were no ready examples that those who had an opposite view could put forward. I can foresee that the next time that this debate comes, they will have a lot of ammunition and I will be on the defensive. I do not know whether I will be able to adequately defend because there is no such ammunition against. 

“Mr Speaker, whereas, I agree with the debate of the hon. Member for Kalomo that we should not make laws in haste because we are emotional, it is, however, a fact that we cannot run away from the fact that laws, usually, are made to deal with situations that arise and problems that people see. 

“Therefore, with what has been happening, it will be wishful thinking to think that there will not be a spirited attempt to introduce legislation that will regulate the press.”  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha:

“It is only hoped by me that between now and that time, the press, itself, will seriously reflect upon what it is doing, upon the kind of situation they are presenting for us who so much want to defend them and see that we need their assistance in terms of behaving in a responsible manner. 

“The learned hon. Minister of Justice will no doubt support me in the submission I am doubt to make with regard to the happenings in Rwanda and the tribunals which were held regarding the Rwanda genocide. The hon. Member for Sinda touched on it and rightly stated that the media played a very large role in the genocide of more then 800,000 people. It is in a space of less than 100 days. This was more than 8,000 people being massacred day. That calls for us to have sober reflection. Is that what we require to happen in Zambia where more than 8,000 people per day get massacred? Where little babies are thrown into pit latrines and people headed into churches where petrol is then splashed all over them and lit into a blaze?  Where people are massacred with pangas, axes and hoes? Those are the things we need to soberly reflect on even as we sit in this House. 

“Currently, there are more than twenty-five journalists who have been convicted by the Rwanda International Tribunal. That shows the kind of effect that they had because that is a large number. They have been convicted for various terms ranging from fifteen years to life imprisonment for the gravity of what they had done. 

“Mr Speaker, it is sad that at this particular time some people seem to believe that it is permissible to go on radio to incite people into violence. There is a priest in Rwanda by the name of Atanaze Seromba from the Catholic Church. Father Atanaze Seromba went on radio and told people to rise up and get violent. He was arrested. Nobody said that it was wrong to arrest him. In fact, he was not tried by just a simple court. He was tried by the International Tribunal. The priest who went on radio inciting violence was tried and given all the opportunity to defend himself, but was convicted and sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for his act.

As we speak, he is still in prison because of those irresponsible acts.

“When we are talking of the press, we must keep these very live and real examples in our minds for if we were to ignore them, there is no reason we cannot be visited by similar calamities.”

Mr Mukanga: Fyafula!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: I am about to finish.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha:

“It is not, like I said, about a blame game. I am not going to point any finger in any direction. I am just going to ask for each one of us the media, the editors, the priests, the citizens, the politicians, the leaders and everybody to really search our conscience. We must ensure that what happened in Rwanda does not come to visit us.

“Mr Speaker, I would like to sit down with just this last word. There was an issue of what the function of the Opposition was that was brought up. What it should be is a matter of opinion. For some, their opinion is that it must always be to oppose. For others, and I am of that school, the Opposition must be responsible, loyal and able to give guidance and alternative ideas to the Government. Anything other than that would be to behave like those priests and journalists in Rwanda.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Lubinda!

HEARING THINGS FROM ABROAD

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, before I can summarise on what I have just shown, I would like to deal with one issue that you, Hon. Mr Speaker, directed me. In your directive on this matter, Sir, you said: 

“Even though I am one of the most isolated persons in the Republic, I hear a lot of things from abroad, in general, and overseas in particular. The impression is that the Republic is under threat.”

Sir, on 17th July, 2009, I had a four hour telephone interview, as hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, with Zambians in the Diaspora. 9,210 Zambians wanted to speak to me either by e-mail or SMS and telephone. Those that managed to speak had a very clear message for the Zambians.

The Zambians in the Diaspora asked why such a bad image was being painted about Zambia abroad. They asked why Zambia was being negatively reported on, particularly by one newspaper, The Post. They mentioned that from their position in the Diaspora, the impression given by this negative reporting was that Zambia would go up in flames any time.

They asked me whether the people who were making these negative reports did not know that there were many negative things that happened in other countries in the world, but the media always reflects a positive and good image of their countries. They explained that the bad image that was being painted of Zambia by the media was not only damaging the country’s image, but would also scare away would-be investors and it would take Zambia a very long time to recover her image and recapture her international position. The Zambians in the Diaspora asked me to bring it to the attention of those who are painting a bad image of the country that they are killing opportunities for the future generations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I am reminded of the wonderful wisdom of Hon. Sakwiba Sikota that I have just read, who, in his contribution to the debate on the Report of the Parliamentary Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services, last year, called for sober reflection by the public and those in the media about what we say or write about others.

He referred to the genesis of the genocide in Rwanda in which, everyone admits, the media was largely to blame. He told the House that this was confirmed by the arrest and conviction of twenty-five journalists in connection with the genocide.

We were all touched by his concluding remarks in which he asked each one of us, that is, the media, the editors, the priests, the citizens, the politicians, the leaders and everybody to really search our consciences and ensure that what happened in Rwanda did not come to visit us.

We, in the Ruling Party, Sir, will do out best to teach our supporters to exercise a high level of restraint when provoked. We want our members and supporters to accept criticism as part of democracy and that some of what may appear in the media may not make good reading. I urge all the other political parties to do the same.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, in making these observations, you directed that the Executive be proactive in matters about which it is accused of being too silent. You further directed that the Executive tell the nation whether it was true that the peace of the nation was threatened or whether there were individuals who wanted to give this perception to the world.

Sir, I wish to confirm that, in the last three years, the Government has received information to the effect that some media personnel had been harassed by political cadres belonging to the Movement for the MMD, PF and the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! No!

Mr V. Mwale: Yes! Mwaibala ku Livingstone!

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Sir, I can further confirm that this country is not threatened by these incidents nor are the acts of violence backed by people who want to give the perception of instability in the nation.

However, it is true that coverage of these isolated incidents of violence against the media personnel is largely exaggerated and, probably, intended to give the world the impression that the peace in this country is threatened.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I have tried to answer your directives regarding the cause of this unfortunate situation where journalists are being harassed. 

Sir, from my statement this morning, it is easy for us to find and know that it is the irresponsibility of the media, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … that incites violence in the people.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I wish to restate the Government’s commitment to upholding press freedom and self-regulation. We will continue to invest in the creation of a favourable environment for the media to flourish and operate freely for the benefit of the nation.

In this regard, …

Mr Kambwili: Finally!

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … media bodies such as the Media Ethics Council of Zambia (MECOZ), shoulder a heavy responsibility of monitoring the professional conduct of journalists and media institutions so that they operate within the set confines of professionalism.

Otherwise, the public will continue to demand for a statutory body to regulate the media. It will be difficult to fend off such demands if the public continues to regard the media as a source of conflict, insults and instability in the country.

Mr Speaker, I must hasten to say that, indeed, the media have been at the job to try and regulate themselves for the past nine years. In a meeting, yesterday, with His Honour the Vice-President and the media organisations, we agreed that if they do not produce a self-regulatory framework in six months time, the Government will bring to this House a regulatory framework that should be passed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: As hon. Members may be aware, Mr Speaker, Botswana was recently rated the most peaceful country in the region. Some Zambians have already concluded that this may be because of the laws that it put in place to regulate the media.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Many people feel that Zambia must do what Botswana has done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, be this as it may, I wish to advise the public and other stakeholders that when aggrieved by media reports, they should remember that there are adequate avenues for redress without resorting to violence.

CURRENT REPORTING SITUATION

Sir, let me now turn to the media reporting that we are experiencing as a nation now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: I want to bring a few examples of the media’s incitement to the attention of the House. I would have brought 100 copies of The Post newspaper, but I only came with a few. I want to show why the media are the source of incitement.

Mr Sichilima: Hammer!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On this date, The Post newspaper says: “Rupiah and Chiluba Possess Dubious Character, Sata.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha:  On another date The Post newspaper says, “Rupiah Thugs Attack Journalists.” Yet again, that, “Rupiah is Set on a Path of Self Destruction.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Furthermore that, “Rupiah Fires Chanda, Kambikambi.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Another headline read, “Rupiah is a Habitual Liar, charges Kapita.” 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: With another headline reading, “Rupiah is Responsible for Sakala’s Embarrassment.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On another date in The Post, still on his Excellency the President, a headline read, “Banda has Entrenched Umozi Ku Mawa System.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Again that, “Rupiah on Chief Justice.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Still in The Post newspaper a headline read, “Most MMD Members of Parliament want Rupiah Impeached.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Yet, again, that, “Rupiah Cannot Recognise Himself Mentally.” Furthermore that, “Rupiah Used Money from the Ministry of Health For Campaigns.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Another one being, “Rupiah Has No Brains to Give Maize to Zimbabwe.” With another headline reading, “Rupiah is Scared of Me – Sata.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Finally that, “Rupiah Deserves Best Liar Medal.”

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, this is one newspaper that continues to talk negatively about the Republican President everyday. How can you not expect people to be incited when their leader is being insulted like this?

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, whilst I do not want to prolong this ministerial statement, it is clear that in Rwanda, newspapers, radio and television stations are the ones that agitated for the genocide. Why was it so? It is because those who were given the licences to own the newspapers and broadcasting stations grossly abused the right to owning them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Even those who worked for those television and radio stations, and, indeed, the print media grossly abused their power to report and agitated for a reaction from the public. Arising out of their reporting, they incited a situation that led to a colossal loss of lives.

Mr Speaker, it is clear that the hon. Members of this House were also moved to debate in the way they did. They were agitated and incited to protect their country. Is it not true that one newspaper, The Post newspapers has not taken heed to the cries of this august House to abandon its line of attacking and insulting the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda?

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members of this august House are representatives of all the people in the country and they have cried out in their debate that this, particular, paper should stop what it is doing because it will destroy the nation. Today, we have people being incited to fight amongst journalists and the cadres because of this reporting. There are many Zambians who voted for President Banda and they demand that he be given due respect by The Post newspapers.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: For those Zambians who put him in office and the ones he represents, the President, indeed, deserves respect.

Mr Speaker, before I conclude my ministerial statement, I want to produce The Post newspaper dated Wednesday, 5th August, 2009 headlined “Zambia’s Envoy to South Africa, Zuma’s office have no knowledge of Banda’s trip – Zuma not aware of Rupiah’s Visit.”

Mr Speaker, such a report can be hurtful and injurious to the nation. First and foremost, while The Post newspapers was fabricating this story, the President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda was having a president -to- president discussion with Mr Jacob Zuma, the President of the Republic of South Africa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: They quoted other sources in this article, instead of getting the information from me because I, the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, has given the newspaper my phone numbers. Not only that, I have also given them my private number. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is also available and The Post newspapers have his numbers.

In addition, we have a hon. Member who has been leading the Secretary to the Cabinet, His excellency Leslie Mbula.  He has worked for the Civil Service for more than forty years and is now Ambassador to South Africa, and yet The Post newspapers could not ring him neither me nor the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, but they went ahead and produced a fabrication of this nature.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, it is because of the media’s irresponsibility that we have all this agitation in the country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would be failing in my duty if I did not mention the other cause of such media and public conflict.

Mr Speaker, it is the failure by the church to remain on God’s side. The church in Rwanda took sides with newspapers and radio stations which were fanning falsehoods and propaganda and this led to the genocide.

The church blindly took sides in opposing camps such that it is reported and I quote:

“after a century of Christian proselytisation, the country was catholicised, but not Christianised. Rituals were generally followed, but the spirit was missing. This became tragically evident for the church only after April to May 1994 when its people slaughtered their brethren wholesome inside the churches on orders from civil authorities and priests.” 

I have here the case of Father Seromba which I will lay on the Table so that people can have a look at this trial. All this happened because the church took sides with men and not with God. I see that the church in Zambia is taking sides with man rather than God.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, we see the church in Zambia taking no stance against the things that God does not like. Where is the church when the newspaper is insulting the Head of State?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Where is the church when young men are insulting old men?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Is it not the duty of the church to reconcile God’s people in the country?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, the church in Zambia, today, is busy trying to jostle for who they should put into State House forgetting their mandate.

Mr Munkombwe: Shame!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Others are dishing out second hand clothing in their campaigns for the pact.

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Others feel that if a person does not belong to a certain political party, they are not Christian enough. All these things used to happen in Rwanda just before the genocide.

The church failed in Rwanda and twenty-five journalists were arrested and imprisoned for genocide. The church in Zambia must learn from the lessons in Rwanda. The spirit of God must rule in the lives of people. If there is any pact that has to be packeted, it must be one with Jesus.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Therefore, my appeal to the church through you, Mr Speaker, and  this august House is, seek ye first the Kingdom of God …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … and Zambia shall be saved from calamities.

Mr Speaker, I thank you and God bless you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, I warned you to look at the time. As you can see, there is still plenty of work on the Order Paper. We have to save on time, as I call on some of you who wish to seek clarifications on the issues contained in the hon. Minister’s statement. I will only call upon a few of you. 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, we are all compelled to practice what we preach. The hon. Minister has chastised The Post newspapers as well as other political parties without being very open about what he has done. What practical steps has he and his party taken to discipline those well-known political affiliates of the MMD, who are given red carpet treatment at the airport apron where ordinary Zambians are not permitted to go.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I have categorically mentioned how the entire Government and the party abhor and condemn violence. What we are doing is to educate our cadres to ensure that they understand the criticism and detest from engaging in violent activities that are going to endanger the security of the country. The Government and party are doing everything possible to stop violence. Therefore, I ask other parties also to do the same.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, when Lieutenant- General Shikapwasha stood in Keembe, he continuously referred to the late President Mwanawasa, who was the President of our party at that time, as being a cabbage. I would like to find out what he meant by saying that? Does it mean that he also wantedto incite violence in the country?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I stood on the MMD ticket in Keembe …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aaah! Heritage!

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister is replying.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … and, indeed, I flashed all the Opposition soundly. Before that I stood on a Heritage Party ticket …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … in Keembe. Please, listen. I stood on Heritage Party ticket in Keembe and there was never a time that I spoke about the late President in the manner that the hon. Member has referred to.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aaah!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, during the time I was in the Heritage Party, the hon. Member who stood on an MMD ticket in Keembe was my nephew, Hon. Mapushi, may his soul rest in peace, and there was no confrontation to allow for such utterances as those that the hon. Member has referred to.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I allowed that question so that the hon. Minister could make a point. Do not be personal.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, the beating up of journalists by MMD cadres did not start with the thug, Chalwe, who was arrested yesterday. It takes me back to the women journalists of Muvi Television, who were beaten. Therefore, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when those three cadres from Kabwata, Kalingalinga and Kaunda Square are also going to be arrested as a docket is already there at the Police Headquarters. 

Lieutenant-Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, this is a Government of laws …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Shikapwasha: … and the police, as has been seen, have already arrested one cadre. On our part, as a Government, we cannot instruct the police who they must arrest.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, following very clearly the statement by the hon. Minister that the question of violence has not been specific to the MMD, in fact, PF and UPND cadres have also attacked members of the media, does he see the possibility …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aaah! Where?

Dr Kalumba: … of sponsoring a meeting between heads of political parties and the media in order to find common grounds to reduce this tension.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, when I opened my ministerial statement, I said it was important for us to face the truth and only the truth would set this country free. I hear hon. Members on your left murmuring each time a political party from their side is mentioned. I have on record that the Chief Whip in this House, Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, was beaten by UPND cadres at the house of the late UPND President, Mr Mazoka.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, was hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, the top most journalist in the country, when he was the.

Interruptions 

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, in order to answer the hon. Member for Chienge’s question, indeed, we, as a Government, are working at putting up measures where all the parties must discuss this issue, including the media to try and find a common ground that we can use.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in his extensive statement, the hon. Minister quoted extensively from hon. Members on your left alone. Perhaps, this is a clear indication that wisdom resides only on your left.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Aaah!

Mr Milupi: That notwithstanding, since the hon. Minister says he is from a Government of laws, is it not prudent for this Government to categorically state that no violence against any journalists shall be tolerated and not only that, where anybody feels aggrieved by a journalist they have recourse in the courts of law. Therefore there is no need for any physical violence of any kind against journalists because these are our children, brothers and sisters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: So, there is no need to make them suffer the physical violence that your Government is allowing. Can the police be instructed that they should take action every time a journalist is attacked?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Well, I hear so many answers and, maybe, we should leave it at that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, since this House has not been spared from the unpalatable language by some of the media houses, …

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Kasongo: … does the hon. Minister consider six months to be reasonable enough to bring a law to this House to regulate the media and to pump sense in their heads.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, having deliberated over this issue with the media for nine years without finding a solution, the Government feels it is necessary, within those six months, for the media to come up with self regulatory laws. If the media is unable to do so on its own, the Government will move in.

Mr Speaker, the Government wants to ensure that every person participates in this matter in order to find a lasting solution. In finding a lasting solution, it is important that those who are part and parcel of us in here should not encourage lawlessness. I remember some time in the past, Hon. Sata was at Chengelo and somebody beat him there.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

___________ 

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga: … I would like His Honour the Vice-President, who is also the hon. Minister of Justice, to tell this House the correct position regarding the Chief Justice. Lately, there have been attacks on the Chief Justice to an extent where the integrity of the Judiciary is at stake. In fact, a number of issues have even been referred to this morning in the press.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, unfortunately, this matter is a subject of court proceedings and, therefore, I am constrained to comment on that particular question.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when the Government is going to pay nurses their June salaries, which have been withheld, considering the fact that they went back to work and were forgiven. We also have on record that the First Lady has been on the teachers’ payroll since 2006.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we do not discuss individuals who are not here to defend themselves, as is the case with the First Lady. In fact, the issue the hon. Member has raised is dealt with administratively.  As regards nurses, we do not encourage workers to go on illegal wildcat strikes and hon. Members of Parliament should discourage the Public Service from indulging in illegal activities of that nature. Therefore, it is within the right of the Government to look into those issues as disciplinary matters and it is doing just that.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, bearing in mind that the Government is finding it extremely hard to raise revenue, may His Honour the Vice-President tell the nation why the Road Traffic and Safety Agency (RTSA) has not been issuing licences since March.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that, but I will investigate and determine whether what the hon. Member of Parliament is saying is the correct position. The legal position is that money should be collected at all times because that particular law is still in place and, in fact, it is to the advantage of the Government to collect revenue. So, if that is happening, it is a matter of concern to us and we should look into it immediately.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I would like to ask His Honour the Vice-President to cast some light on the issue of the reduction of members for the African Peer Review Mechanism National Governing Council (APRM-NGC) in Zambia. It has been suggested that it is only two people who were removed. Can he state whether this is, in fact, factual or there are others who were removed and what led to the people being removed from there as well as the criterion that was used.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Livingstone will remember that this question was, actually, asked last week and His Honour the Vice-President gave an answer. He may emphasise that answer.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the APRM-NGC was trimmed down from forty-seven to thirty members. Various factors were taken into account in reducing the number. One of them was attendance of meetings. The second one was the work done and that which still remains to be done and the relevance of some of the participants in the process, taking into account their skills and the organisations they were representing. It was also necessary to cut down on the costs of running the APRM-NGC. I also said that we have been under pressure from the civil society for us to reduce the number of members of the NGC and we are just responding to that.

Mr Speaker, I wish to say that, in fact, we shall continue to review the number of members of this council so that we can make it more effective and streamline its operations. It is not true that only two people were targeted. Instead, even Government officers were removed from the NGC. So, it is not only the private sector, the civil society members or,indeed, two people, but several people were removed and we shall continue to review the size of this council so that we can cut down on costs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, may I get a clarification from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government has the will to make a permanent drainage system for the people of Kanyama in the three months left before the onset of rains.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we shall continue to review our operations in terms of disaster management. We are aware that the drainage system in Kanyama is of concern. We need to allocate more money to disaster management so that we can attend to the drainage system in this area. I also wish to take advantage of this question to say that we are processing legislation on disaster management and mitigation so that we can, in line with our policy on this issue, streamline our operations and create a legal framework for declaration of disasters and partial disasters. This Bill will be coming soon and, maybe, by the next Sitting, we should have a new legal framework. I would like to urge hon. Members to monitor the budget closely so that we can provide more resources to the problem of drainages.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, in view of the impending privatisation of the Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL), what is the Government’s position on the International Gateway? Zain and MTN mobile providers have been asking for it, but your response was that it was going to be preserved for ZAMTEL.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: As the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport mentioned, the idea behind privatising ZAMTEL is to modernise it and do away with obsolete equipment. I know that the Gateway is still being controlled, but as we have mentioned, we are working on the optic fibre network. 

The bandwidth on the International Gateway is very small compared to the optic fibre installation. If that is done, it will become almost obsolete. Considering the technology in place, it is easy for someone to get connectivity using other ways. Therefore, even if we continue controlling the gateway, as we shall in the mean time, it is not a most secure way of controlling issues of connectivity. That is why we are putting in place a better legal framework and the Bill that we are dealing with addresses all these concerns. Therefore, the gateway is still under our control. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, Your Honour the Vice-President, defamation and libel laws in this country are weak and too slow in bringing culprits to book thereby leaving citizens at the mercy of insulting media houses that insult people with impunity. Is the Government not willing to strengthen defamation and libel laws and put in place a fast tracking mechanism to bring sanity to this area?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker that is a very important question.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It reminds all of us to brainstorm the options available to an individual who is libeled or slandered through some of these newspapers, especially if the libel or insults are continuous. If you keep going to court, is it possible for you pay Hon. Mwiimbu exorbitant fees since lawyers charge a lot of money in terms of fees? These are some of the issues which we have to reflect upon as we reform the law on libel. 

However, if you look back, the media has been asking for reforms and that we should remove certain penal provisions and that we should create room for the media while, at the same time, the public is complaining. It is up to us, now, to look at the two scenarios and create some equilibrium to put laws in place that are fair and deterrent enough in ensuring that people’s reputations are also protected.

It is also incumbent on the courts, when awarding damages, to award punitive and aggravated damages in favour of litigants who have been libeled. It is time we reviewed the principles through which we award these damages in order to deter or close down some of these newspapers that show irresponsibility in the manner they report. The criminal laws of libel have been relaxed in this country hence the behaviour of the media which has prompted hon. Members to ask for stiffer penalties. So, it is the media itself which is tempting the House to become more punitive and aggressive in its approach towards the media houses.

Therefore, media should put its house in order and remove any quacks, if any, so that we have trained journalists who follow ethics of the profession. You cannot become a journalist and expect to be called one just by writing a column in the newspaper. In my view, journalism is a noble profession which must be cleaned of all quacks and people who are masquerading as journalists.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, earlier today, we heard, in the first ministerial statement, that parastatals are obsolete and should give way to a new business model that involves obtaining strategic partners and giving them something like 75 per cent of the shares. I would like to ask His Honour the Vice-President when the following parastatals are going to be liberalised in this fashion, considering that two of them were originally private. These are the Times of Zambia, the Zambia Daily Mail and the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC)?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, you cannot prescribe the same remedy for all parastatals. We have to look at each case on its on merits. The Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail are doing very well in terms of business operations and, in fact, they are procuring machinery. Furthermore, the ethical standards in the two newspapers are very high.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: If you have been insulted in some private tabloids and you wish to respond to those insults through the Times of Zambia, they will not do it because they observe ethics. Therefore, we shall continue maintaining them as parastatals because they are doing very well. In any case, the public media should also exist to serve the interests of the public.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in March, 2009 when this House repealed the mine taxes such as the windfall tax, we, from this side of the House (Opposition), were advised that it was very unwise. In view of the fact that the Government has accepted that there is a revenue shortfall amounting to 25 per cent for the first half of the year and that, as of yesterday, the copper price was quoted at US$6,235 per tonne, which is equivalent to US$2.88 per pound, would the Government accept that they were wrong and we were right?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the shortfall in revenue is on imports and trade taxes. It has nothing to do with mineral taxes. We were right in doing away with windfall tax because we wanted to save jobs and to put in place an equitable tax regime. In any case, we shall still be able to get adequate revenue from the valuable tax which we still retained. It would be a disincentive to investment in the mining sector if we impose punitive tax regimes and our people would lose jobs in the process. That is why we decided on this kind of equitable tax system

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs R. M. Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the Zambian registered airlines have been banned from going to Europe. What is the Government doing to help in lifting the ban so that we do not lose the tourists that were using Zambian registered airlines to come to Zambia?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that matter is being addressed expeditiously. The issues which are involved are to do with training so that we can improve on our safety standards and the updating of regulations. This is the problem which is there. Of course, we do not have Zambian airlines at the moment which fly into Europe, but we have international airlines which still fly into Zambia and, therefore, tourists will not be affected for the time being. However, it is important that we improve on our safety standards because we may have airlines flying into Europe in future. This is a matter which is being addressed anxiously and expeditiously.

Thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, the health officials have been making pronouncements that Zambia needs to circumcise 2.5 million men in order to cut down on the spread of HIV/AIDS.

Interruptions

Dr Kalumba: What capacity will the Government give to the Ministry of Health so that they can achieve this objective?

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the question which has been raised, I think, is…

Hon. Government Member: Very important.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: These are matters which are being looked into and there is no policy, as such, which has been developed on the issue of circumcision. However, we understand that this is a very good measure in terms of HIV/AIDS transmission. At the moment, it is voluntary. Those who may wish to undergo…

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … are free to do so, but, I think, the hon. Minister of Health made a statement to the effect that we are looking into this and we shall determine whether this should be taken up as a policy of the Government.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, will His Honour the Vice-President shed light on how the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, is intending to assist in the deposition of chiefs’ wrangles which have adversely affected the implementation of programmes, particularly in areas where courts have delayed disposition of these cases?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have structures and systems through which we resolve such issues and, in particular, the House of Chiefs which should take a keen interest. In fact, they are trying to assist in the resolution of such disputes. The Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and, of course, the court system is trying to resolve some of these disputes. Therefore, there are already systems in place to tackle such issues.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, in the two presidential policy statements made in this august House by the late President and His Excellency the President, Mr R. B. Banda, on energy, it was mentioned that the construction of the Itezhi-tezhi Power Station would start. Has the Government abandoned this project, if not, when is the construction of this project going to commence?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have not abandoned that project. It is very important to Zambia because it is a national project. We realise that we have a deficit in terms of provision of power and, therefore, we should encourage more investment in power generation. We are still negotiating with the possible investors, such as, Tata Zambia Limited of India. In fact, we would like to see to it that it is accelerated so that we can implement it. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, the Zambians have been waiting for sometime now for a report from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) on the position of the hearses. What has happened to the report considering the fact that the hearses are already being distributed to councils when they are a subject of investigations?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we do not interfere in the investigations being conducted by investigative wings. At the moment, the position is that these hearses must be distributed. There is nothing wrong. If you need a hearse, get it from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. There is no corruption over the acquiring of these hearses as such, but if corruption will be detected in the procurement of hearses, then action will be taken.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Vice-President inform the nation whether the Government has any plan to construct a technologically advanced hospital to reduce the number of Zambian citizens who are being flown to South Africa for treatment?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, what we are doing is common knowledge. We are procuring quality equipment and this is being reported in the press. A good example is what we have done at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and in several other hospitals. These are some of the measures we are taking to ensure that our hospitals are properly equipped.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, why is it that the optic fibre on which the Government refused to ratify the New Partnership for African’s Development (NEPAD) Protocol and almost dismissed the hon. Minister who initiated it has now become an attractive venture? Can he state what has changed because it was feared, then, that they were sending away Zambia’s international gateway?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, every country, including those in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region, is going for optic fibre. In fact, it is the in thing and the technology of now and the future. Therefore, Zambia cannot be an exception. The issues you have raised about the hon. Minister who, according to you, was allegedly dismissed are not relevant. We need the optic fibre.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, there are reports that the British Government is moving its embassy from Zambia to South Africa. Could His Honour the Vice-President confirm this?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have not received those reports.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale: Iwe, Mwila, ni rumour iyo!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, may I find out from His Honour the Vice-President why Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) is not paying its suppliers.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: You are also a supplier.

Mr Speaker: This is one exception that the Chair will make. His Honour the Vice-President will answer that question irrespective of the time.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we do not have any information on that, but the hon. Member can supply that information and we can follow it up through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I would like to emphasise that this is the first and last time this will happen.

Laughter

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

REVENUE COLLECTED BY COUNCILS COUNTRYWIDE FROM BUS STATIONS IN 2007 AND 2008

436. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how much revenue was collected by councils countrywide from bus stations in 2007 and 2008.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the following amounts were collected by councils, excluding the Lusaka City Council, in the years indicated below:

Year            Amount 
(K)

2007    4,455,919,000

2008    4,778,011,400

Total            9,233,930,400

Mr Speaker, the Lusaka City Council in the same years collected revenue from two points as follows:

Place                    Year            Amount 
(K)

    Intercity Bus Station            2007            7,141,729,000

    Kulima Tower    Bus Station        2007            1,302,696,000

    Intercity Bus Station            2008            7,361,255,000

    Kulima Tower    Bus Station        2008            1,594,598,000

    Total (for Lusaka alone)                                 17,400,278,000

Therefore, the total revenue collected by all the councils in the years indicated was K26,634,208,400.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, through you, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing the reasons behind the failure to operationalise the Markets and Bus Stations Act that was passed by this House and the reasons behind the cadrelisation of bus stations in Zambia. In particular, the MMD cadres having taken over all the bus stations in Zambia.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the ministry is in the process of making sure that the Act that was passed in this House is implemented and we are already collecting the names of people who are going to sit on the boards. At present, the various councils across the country are collecting revenues at these places as shown in the response that I have given.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF DAMS FOR FISH FARMING IN KANCHIBIYA CONSTITUENCY

437. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives whether there were any plans to construct dams for fish farming in the following areas in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency:

(i)    Senior Chief Kopa;

(ii)    Chief Chiundaponde; and

(iii)    Chief Kabinga.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives has no plans to construct dams, specifically for fish farming in Senior Chief Kopa’s, Chief Chiundaponde’s and Chief Kabinga’s areas in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency. The ministry constructs multi-purpose dams. Where a dam is constructed or exists, the ministry can stock it with fish, provided the local community has formed a fisheries management committee to maintain the dam and manage the fish stocks to avoid over fishing.

I thank you, Sir.

VALUE OF GOVERNMENT ASSETS

438. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    what the total value of the following Government assets was:

(i)    real estate;

(ii)    motor vehicles; and

(iii)    fixtures and fittings; and

(b)    what the annual depreciation rate of the assets above, in percentage terms, was.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has constituted an Annual Board of Survey to verify all assets held by the ministries, provinces and other spending agencies.

The hon. Member may wish to know that, currently, the Government is using a manual system, which is a cumbersome and tedious way of gathering such information. However, it is expected that once the Integrated Financial Management System (IFMIS) is fully implemented in the Government, it will be easier to collect such information using the Asset Management Model and the total asset value position of the Government can be given.

Sir, when the verification exercise is completed, the hon. Members will be informed and a more detailed answer given.

Sir, there is, currently, no policy regarding the depreciation of assets, but the Government is guided by international accounting standards.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, how long is it going to take for the Government to give us this information so that we can make proper follow-up questions?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, there are two aspects to this. There is the aspect of gauging the information on the basis of the board of survey that has been indicated. As the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated, only one institution has been completed, that is, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. It will take, probably, six months before the whole information is complete. 

Sir, we have also indicated that we are in the process of computerising the Government accounting system which will take a number of years. Thereafter, the information will be available all the time because it will be on the computer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that we do not have a data base with the total values for assets such as real estate, motor vehicles and fittings. Before the exercise is finalised, what assurance are you giving to this House that which ever assets disappear will still be captured and recovered?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister clearly indicated that when motor vehicles or other assets are acquired, now, there is a localised register that is updated to contain information on the new acquisitions. The data base exists, but in a localised fashion. She also indicated that this data also has historical costs. This means that even for a motor vehicle that was bought four years ago, the value in the manual register would reflect the acquisition value. In short, the data does exist, but it is not centralised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

ZAMBIA OPEN COMMUNITY SCHOOLS

439. Colonel G. Chanda (Kanyama) asked the Minister of Education how the Zambia Open Community Schools in Kanyama Parliamentary Constituency, in particular, and the country, in general, had faired from 2006 to 2008, year by year, in relation to the following:

(i)    pupil attendance rate;

(ii)    Grade 9 pass rate; and

(iii)    financially.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, unfortunately, for the second part of the question, which states the country in general, I would like to say that at the moment, we do not have information from the Zambia Open Community Schools (ZOCS)  as for how many schools we have that are affiliated to this non-governmental organisation (NGO). However, on Kanyama in particular, the only Zambian Open Community School in Kanyama Constituency under Lusaka District is Mansila Community School.

The pupil attendance rate for 2006, 2007 and 2008 is as follows:

2006

Grade        1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9

Enrolled    123        113        43        128    29    36

Drop Out    3        10        16        32    1    19

Progressed    120        103        27        96    28    17

Progressive     97.50%        91%        62.70%        75%    96.50%    47.20
Rate

2007

Enrolled    102        138        77        54    62    51

Drop Out    3        9        5        9    10    5

Progressed    99        129        72        45    52    46

Progressive    97.50        93%        93.50%        83%    83.80%    90.10%
Rate

2008

Enrolled    103        154        180        36    50    69

Drop Out    0        0        52        0    4    24

Progressed    103        154        128        36    46    45

Progressive    100%        100%        71.10%        100%    92%    65.50%
Rate

Mansila Community School pupils Grade 9 pass rate for the three years 2006, 2007 and 2008 was as follows:

Sat for Examination    Selected to Grade 10        Pass (%)

2006                17                04                23

2007             46                13            28

2008             45                -            -

Sir, unfortunately, the results for 2008 were withheld by the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ). The pupils wrote their examinations from Chibolya Basic School and this school did not remit examination fees for Mansila Community School, hence, the pupils’ results were withheld. An agreement was made between Mansila Community School and ECZ to allow the forty-five pupils to re-write their examinations this year.

Mr Speaker, financially, the school received a total of K861,156 in 2007 and K1,232,111 in 2008 from the Lusaka District Education Board Secretary’s Office for administration, rehabilitations, maintenance, HIV Sensitisation and educational materials. Barclays Bank funded the school with an amount of K9 million in 2008 for the following activities:

(i)    servicing the toilets;

(ii)    plastering the inside and outside of buildings;

(iii)    procuring textbooks;

(iv)    putting water taps and a small water tank; and

(v)    for labour.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Colonel G. Chanda: Mr Speaker, may I find out whether the ministry has any plans to help out the community school in Kanyama, in light of the poor results and also, bearing in mind the principle under which the school was established.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, yes, the school is our concern. We impress upon our standard officers to ensure that they inspect the school so that results can be improved. I can assure the hon. Member that, apart from providing teachers to our Government schools, as we train more teachers we will make them available even to the community schools so that all our children can be advantaged in as far as quality education is concerned.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF HOUSES FOR POLICE OFFICERS IN MANDEVU CONSTITUENCY

440. Ms Kapata asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether there were any plans to build houses for police officers in Chazanga and Kabanana Compounds in Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, under the Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP), the Government has embarked on a project of constructing housing units for police officers countrywide. In the first phase, 1,500 housing units have been earmarked for construction. At the moment, 500 housing units are being constructed. The programme is on-going. Like other areas in constituencies countrywide, Chazanga and Kabanana Compounds in Mandevu Constituency will benefit from this programme in ensuing phases.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, in Mandevu, we have built a new police post which is awaiting police officers and there is land which is adjacent to the Police Post. Can the same unit be extended to Chazanga?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, I want to commend the area hon. Member of Parliament for taking the initiative of constructing the Police Post and also providing land. It is an issue that we can seriously consider in the phases that we have indicated.

I thank you, Sir.

________

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

TITLE OF PART II ─ (The Public Private Partnership Unit)

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment to the title of Part II, on page 9, in line 12 by the insertion of a comma and the words ‘Council and Technical Committee’ after the word ‘Unit’. 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, the problem is that if we make this amendment, we have to make consequential amendments to other parts, including the Index. He has not moved amendments to those portions of the Bill. It will create some inconsistencies and, therefore, we object to this amendment. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, this is a very innocent amendment. I concur with His Honour the Vice-President, that we require an amendment in the Index. However, as you are aware, we do not amend the Index part of the Act here. That is an administrative matter. Furthermore, there are no consequential amendments that will arise from this amendment. 

Mr Chairperson, this amendment simply aligns all the aspects of Part II. You will notice that on page 9, we have, in the sub-column, Establishment of the Public-Private Partnership Unit, and under the same part on page 11, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you may take your seat. Let us allow His Honour the Vice-President to take the Floor. 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, there is no need for prolonged debate. We have seen the point. We concede.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Title of Part II, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE 6 – (Director for the Unit)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment after Clause 5, on page 10 by the insertion of the following new Clause:

“6. (1) There shall be a Director for the Unit who shall be a public officer appointed by the Public Service Commission.

(2)  The Director shall, subject to the general or specific directions of the Council:

(a)    be responsible for the administration of the Unit;

(b)    be an ex-officio member of the Technical Committee; and 

(c)    exercise the functions conferred upon the Director by or under this Act.

(3)    The Public Service Commission shall appoint such other officers as are necessary for the purpose of this Act.” 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, you will note that this particular Clause which the hon. Member is creating is already there in Clause 14. The hon. Member is moving Clauses. This is a drafting problem and I do not see any reason why it should move from where it is to Clause 6, which has got a different marginal note. He has not even provided for the re-numbering of that particular Clause. Clause 6 is dealing with another subject, which is on the establishment of the Public-Private Partnership Council. He is moving what is in Clause 14 to Clause 6. 

Mr Chairperson, we object to this particular amendment. 

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, indeed, this amendment aims at rectifying a drafting anomaly. However, I want to draw the attention of His Honour the Vice-President, to the fact that the current Clause 14, which talks about the Director of the Unit, follows a matter which is totally unrelated to the Unit. It follows the issue of proceedings of the Technical Committee whereas if it is transposed to become the new number 6, it will be directly under the aspects to do with the functions and establishment of the Unit. 

With regard to numbering, if His Honour the Vice-President, will care to see, my amendment number 9 is, actually, aiming at renumbering everything as a consequence of putting the Director of the Unit where it belongs. This is purely to try and improve the presentation of the law. 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we do not accept this because it will distort the flow of the institutions in the Public-Private Partnership as arranged in the Bill. Therefore, we totally reject this amendment. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: I put the Question.  The Question is that Clause 5 be amended with the words as circulated. As many as are of that opinion say “Aye.”

Hon. MMD Members: Aye!

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me put the Question again.

Hon. PF Members: No! They have already agreed.

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us not ambush anybody. The amendment was moved by Mr Lubinda. The ones who want Clause 5 amended with words as circulated are Mr Lubinda and his group. Therefore, the Question is that Clause 5 be amended with the words as circulated. As many as are of that opinion say “Aye.” 

Hon. PF Members: Aye!

 The Deputy Chairperson: Of the contrary say “No.” 

Hon. MMD Members: No!

The Deputy Chairperson: I think that the Noes have it. The amendment is negatived.

Question  put and negatived.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 ─ (Functions of Council)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 11, in line 20 by the deletion of the words ‘notwithstanding any law to the contrary’ and the substitution therefor of the words ‘subject to any other written law’. 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the amendment I proposed in Clause 7, on page 11 is exactly the same as the amendment moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. It has been overtaken by events and I, therefore, beg to withdraw it.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

CLAUSE 8 ─ (Composition of Council)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, page 12, in lines 30 to 40 by the deletion of Clause 8 and the substitution therefor of the following new Clause:
“8. (1)    The Council shall consist of the following part-time members:

    (a)    the Minister responsible for finance, who shall be the Chairperson;
    
    (b)    the Minister responsible for Lands, the Minister responsible for Commerce, Trade and Industry, the Minister responsible for Local Government and Housing and the Minister responsible for Works and Supply;

    (c)    a representative of each of the following-

(i)    the Zambia Business Forum;
(ii)    the Zambia Consumers Association;
(iii)    the Economic Association of Zambia; and
(iv)    the Engineering Institute of Zambia.

(2) The Council shall elect a Vice-Chairperson from among its members.”

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we strongly object to this particular proposed amendment because it is contrary to Government policy, which we are now legislating here. 

The appointing authority should be given a free hand in the appointment of members of the councils. We are doing away with representation through institutions. Further, the vice-chairperson should be appointed by the hon. Minister and this is consistent with what we have been doing in several other pieces of legislation. Therefore, we reject this particular amendment and this time, we shall vote “no” against it.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, notwithstanding the fact that His Honour the Vice-President has already started campaigning and is instructing how people should vote, I would like to appeal to hon. Members of this House to be considerate of the fact that many people who have been talking about reform in the country have been saying that we should make sure that the balance of power is shared across different institutions.

Sir, in this particular case, we know the functions of the Public Private Partnership Authority. We also know which institution will have relevance to the functions. Therefore, as legislators, we are able to pre-determine the membership of the council without leaving to the discretion of the Head of State.

Secondly, the fact that the hon. Minister is chairperson of the council should, certainly, preclude him from deciding who shall be the councils’ deputy or vice-chairperson. Once people are constituted as a council, it should be upon them, as a council, to, at least, determine who shall be the vice-chairperson. I submit this proposal for the sake of reducing the onerous task that such provisions put on the Head of State. We do not want the Head of State to appoint not only hon. Ministers, but also members of the partnership councils such as this. This amendment is aimed at strengthening institutions of governance and is aimed at relieving the Head of State from so much responsibility.

 I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, the clause, which we are dealing with, is Clause 8. It says that, “the hon. Minister responsible for finance shall be the Chairperson.” This is what the Government’s policy and position is on this Bill.  

The other part says, “that four ministers will be appointed by the President and one of whom shall be designated the vice-chairperson.” This is the clause that we support which the hon. Member wishes to delete. The President should be empowered to appoint four other hon. Ministers, instead of specifying them. He should have a free hand in the appointment.

Mr Chairperson, the last part says that, “not more than four other persons who shall be appointed by the President on such conditions as the President as the President may determine.” This is the position of the Government. Therefore, the President should appoint these Members. 

In fact, this is what we were debating in this House that when you are elected or appointed, you should exercise the power and, therefore, the President should appoint these people. We shall vote “no” against these amendments.

 I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Question that Clause 8 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 − (Constitution of Public Partnership Technical Committee)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 10, on page 14, in line 3, by the deletion of the word “Minister” and the substitution therefor of the words “resolution of the Technical Committee with the approval of the Council.”

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we do not accept this particular amendment and we shall, accordingly, vote against it.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: He is trying to reduce ministerial powers, but the position of the Government is that the hon. Minister should exercise power.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I am moving this amendment alive to the fact that come 2011, the people …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I need your guidance. Yesterday, somebody told us that the hon. Members on your right are very reasonable. Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to continuously direct the reasonable …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … Cabinet to vote, ‘No,’ as we proceed? I need your ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: In the light of what transpired, it is the Chair’s understanding that His Honour the Vice-President wants to make sure that they are reasonable.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, let us proceed.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I was trying to advance my argument before my brother raised that very important point of order.

Sir, I was saying that I am moving this amendment very alive to the fact that, soon after the 2011 elections, the people on your left side will be sitting on your right side and will be the hon. Ministers responsible for implementing these laws.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Could the reasonable people pay attention. Sir, I would like the reasonable hon. Members on your right …

Hon. Opposition Member: They are not!

Mr Lubinda: … to be aware that this is not targetted at them. It is targetted at institutions of governance and particularly since we are preparing to take over.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: What we are saying is that …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, if the hecklers could learn to rise to debate rather than debate from their seats, it would help this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The reason for this amendment is that we are talking about membership to a council. His Honour the Vice-President instructed the reasonable hon. Members to object to my amendment in which I wanted members of the private sector to sit on the Technical Committee. Now, he is saying that the Technical Committee must not have the responsibility of governing the affairs of its members, and instead that responsibility be given to an individual, the hon. Minister. The hon. Minister at his or her will can dismiss a member of the council. That is not good governance. The council must have the power to determine who, amongst its members, is not performing his or her duties properly and ask them to leave.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, those who are heckling me from their seats must realise that their time is limited. 

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: They will be sitting here soon and crying foul when we have this excessive power they are giving themselves.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: They are not the alpha and omega of our country. There will be other people who will sit there who are bound to be like them and use this discretionary power at the expense of society. We are alive to the number of boards that have been dismissed because of the discretion given to hon. Ministers.

The Deputy Chairperson: Stick to the amendment.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, we on the left shall vote, “Yes” as they vote, “No” to this amendment because we are reasonable.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Question that Clause 10 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 14 – (Director and other public officers)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I had proposed an amendment in Clause 14, as a consequence of the amendment I had proposed earlier which His Honour the Vice-President instructed the reasonable hon. Members to vote “no” to. Therefore, this has been taken care of and I beg to withdraw the amendment.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, accordingly withdrawn.

Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

CLAUSE 20 − (Procurement Procedure)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 20, on page 17, in line 35 by the insertion immediately after the word ‘awarded’ of the words ‘public-private partnership agreements and.’

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, the problem with the hon. Member is that he does not discuss these amendments with us. I do not understand what he is trying to do here because the way it is in the Bill is very clear. We reject the amendment unless a proper explanation is given. We do not accept it.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the problem with His Honour the Vice-President and his colleagues is that they do not pay attention to the reports of the committees of this House. This amendment was suggested by a Committee of this House. It is clear in the report that with the amendment we are going to increase the leverage for Zambians in businesses and not only in the awarding of tenders. The law as it is written now says that we should take into account the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act 2006 regarding preferential treatment for certain categories of citizens who have been disadvantaged or marginalised as defined under that Act in the awarding of tenders for the procurement of goods and services.

Mr Chairperson, that leaves out the very essence of this law which is to provide as, I have suggested, for the partnership agreements. What the committee proposes to the Government is that Zambian citizens must be given preferential treatment in accordance with the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act, not only in the awarding of tenders for providing goods and services, but also in being awarded partnership agreements so that Zambians are empowered. That is the intention of this law and voting against this amendment is, in fact, voting against the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act of 2006 and, therefore, rendering it totally useless.

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we reject this particular proposed amendment because the hon. Member has not understood the section which he is trying to amend. This clause and, in particular,r the issue of empowerment is taken care of by the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act which is cross referenced here and so the proposed amendment is unreasonable and that is why we are going to vote “no” against it.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question that Clause 20 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 

Clauses 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clauses 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 

29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 38 – (Notice of Contract Award)

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 38, on page 25, in line 28 by the deletion of the word “Cabinet” and the substitution therefor of the word “Council”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 38, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61 … 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)
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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress Reported)

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 The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday 11th August, 2009. 

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