DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 13th August, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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RULING BY MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY THE HON. DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE OFFICE OF THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MR GASTON F. SICHILIMA, MP, ON WEDNDESDAY, 22ND JULY, 2009

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 22nd July, 2009, when the House was considering Questions for Oral Answer No. 297 and the hon. Member for Chipili Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Davies Mwila, MP, was asking a supplementary question, the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, Mr Gaston F. Sichilima, MP, raised the following point of order:

“Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order and a landmark of a point of order in this sitting. We passed the law here which compelled Members of Parliament to be Members of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) in order to change the Constitution. Sometime in February, the High Court ruled that those who were taken to court by some party … I will not mention it.

The ruling was in favour of the Members of Parliament attending the NCC. It stated that they had followed the law. Having said that, is it in order for hon. Members of Parliament who passed this law here, but are not attending the sittings of the NCC, to sit in this House without rendering any apology,  through Mr Speaker, to this House and the nation? There has been no apology, not even from their Whip.

Furthermore, Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) leader has even gone further and described the Members of Parliament who chose to follow the law as rebels. The Oxford Dictionary, Madam Speaker, defines the word ‘rebel’ as “a person who resists authority, control or convention or armed resistance against an established Government.”

The main heading in today’s Times of Zambia newspaper, dated Wednesday, 22nd July, 2009, is “Sata tells off UPND Members of Parliament.”

The leader has gone on to say:

“One of the grounds is the very keeping of the eighteen rebel Members of Parliament in Parliament when we, the sponsors, have withdrawn them …”

Madam Speaker, on another paragraph he says,

“several people are panicking. Our eighteen rebel Members of Parliament led by Dr Peter Machungwa …”

Madam Speaker, we all know that some countries have gone to war because of such careless speaking. Having said this, I need your serious ruling on whether we are going to continue in this manner because people might not take us seriously as hon. Members of Parliament. On one hand, we are being called rebels and on the other, hon. Members of Parliament who abrogate the law, but are still in this house.”

In my immediate remarks, I stated as follows:

“A number of issues have been raised in this point of order and, for the moment, the Chair would find it difficult to follow every issue. Therefore, the Chair will defer this matter to a later time.”

Hon. Members, I have now studied the point of order and I find the following to be the issues raised by Hon. Gaston F. Sichilima, MP:

(a) The hon. Member wants to know whether the members belonging to the PF, who are not members of the NCC, are in breach of the National Constitutional Conference Act, No. 19 of 2007 and, if so, whether it is in order for the Members to continue being in the House without rendering an apology, through Mr Speaker, to the House and the nation; and

(b) whether the alleged usage of the word ‘rebel’ by the leadership of the PF Party, against the members of the party who are members of the NCC, is a reflection on the character or proceedings of the House which amounts to a breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House.

Hon. Members, you are aware that these matters are before the courts of law. What the Supreme Court dealt with in the judgement referred to by the hon. Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office, Hon. Gaston F. Sichilima, MP, was a preliminary issue to do with an interim injunction. The substantive issue is still before the High Court. Even when members of the public outside this august House may choose to comment, this House will remain true to the sub judice rule.

In the light of what I have stated, I wish to rule that this House should allow the court process to complete its due course because discussing this matter in the House at the moment will be against the sub judice rule.

I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Four-zero.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

COMPLETION OF THE BUILDING AT THE JUNCTION OF FREEDOM WAY AND KATONDO STREET

466. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the ministry would compel the owner of the incomplete building at the junction of Freedom Way and Katondo Street in Lusaka, which had become an eye sore, to complete it.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Livestock and Fisheries) (Mr Machila) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, the property in question which is Stand No. 114 belongs to a company called Royal Lutanda and Company. The owners of this property applied to the council to construct a hotel which application was received by the Lusaka City Council on 6th February, 2008. The council, upon receipt of the application, advised the architect of the property owner to make adjustments to the plans before submitting the full technical drawings for consideration by the council.

Madam Speaker, it is the hope of our ministry that the building will be completed within reasonable time and add beauty to the city.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that those bars which were left hanging have started killing people and, if so, when will the ministry remove them?

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, we are not aware of any fatalities as a result of falling bars on the premises of the building. However, the issue the hon. Member has raised is serious and we shall accordingly look into it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister, it does not seem like the Government has consulted the owners of the building because if it had, the hon. Minister was going to specify when the building is going to be finished. Can the hon. Minister tell us when the building will be finished before more people die.

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, I stated earlier that the property owners applied to the council for a change of use to convert the property from an office block to a hotel. The provisional authorisation was given but the council is yet to conclude this issue.

Madam Speaker, may I take this opportunity to appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament who are councillors in Lusaka to assist in addressing this issue so that we can draw a closure to it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister tell us when this building was sold to the new owners because it belonged to the Zambia State Insurance Corporation.

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the building did belong to the Zambia State Insurance Corporation but I am not in a position to state exactly when it was acquired by the current owners.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I would like to know when construction of this building started. As far as I know, it has been there for many years and why should change of use be considered as late as 2008?

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, the building was constructed some time back but I am not in a position to state exactly when. However, the conversion of the building from what was intended, as an office block to a hotel, requires the permission of the council and that is the process which is still underway. It is not suitable for use as a hotel as it stands.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, bearing in mind that this structure has been standing without any works ever taking place on it for over a decade now, is the hon. Minister confirming that the Lusaka City Council has no powers to ensure that structures are completed within the prescribed time?

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, obviously the council has an interest in having this building completed but the process of completing it is subject to the application for conversion and until such time that is cleared by the council, it cannot be done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that all the structures that were not completed in accordance with the prescribed time frame were actually given notice to do so, failure to which the Government was going to take over the buildings in accordance with the law? Is he also aware that the powers to authorise change of use do not fall under the council but are with the hon. Minister?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Madam Speaker, the conversion of this building from what was intended is a process that required authorisation by a full council. The application has been pending with the council from as far back as October, 2008. I, again, wish to appeal to the hon. Members here who are members of the council in Lusaka to assist in bringing this matter to closure.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ALLOCATION OF FUNDS TO ZAPD

467. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a) how much money was allocated to the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD) in the years 2006, 2007 and 2008 in line with the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP); and

(b) how much was actually disbursed to ZAPD in the same period, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Malwa): Madam Speaker, the ministry allocated the following amounts to ZAPD from 2006 to 2008:

Year     Allocation

2006     K6,391,255,818

2007     K9,000,000,000

2008     K5,000,000,000

Total    K20,391,255,818

Madam Speaker, the actual disbursement to the agency, year by year, is as follows:

Year      Disbursement

2006       K6,386,805,943

2007       K8,034,183,767

2008       K4,935,043,001

Total       K19,356,032,711

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, looking at the figures that have been given, they fall below par on actual disbursements. I would like to find out what plan the ministry has instituted to ensure that the activities which are in the FNDP are done, or are we using the people with disabilities as a source of resource mobilisation only?

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Madam Speaker, may I thank Hon. Mukanga for that question and I want to use this occasion to thank him for showing empathy for the people with vulnerability, particularly the disabled people.

Hon. Member, what you have said is true, but what we give ZAPD is seed money for them to start up programmes. ZAPD is an entity that has got properties. You are aware, hon. Member, that it has got sixteen farms and not only that, it also has flats, houses and even offices for rent. It is, actually, a very rich institution. I do not know why it is failing to look after the disabled.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, Kang’onga, which is in my constituency, has more than …

Mr Mwenya: On a point of order, Madam!

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Speaker, as the House will by now be aware, I only raise serious points of order …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: … which are of national interest. The point of order on which I request your well considered ruling is first of all, of national interest as it affects many citizens, secondly, it is a constitutional one as it hinges on the respect or lack of it of the fundamental laws of the land and thirdly, it is a matter of procedure, precedence and decorum of this august House. As such, I seek the patience of the Chair and the House as I present it.

Madam Speaker, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia provides for immunities for hon. Members of Parliament, witnesses of Parliament and its Committees. This is so in order to allow hon. Members and witnesses debate without any undue influence. In a similar vein, the Constitution and the Standing Orders of Parliament provide sanctions against those who deliberately and wilfully misguide this House. This is in order to prevent this House from making decisions based on wrong information.

Against this background, I wish to draw the attention of this House and, particularly your attention, to the fact that on 4th August, 2009, I raised the following question numbered 408 on the Order Paper to the hon. Minister of Education and I quote:

“PROGRESSION RATE OF THE STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA

408. Mr Mwenya (Nkana) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) what the progression rate of students at the University of Zambia was semester by semester;

(b) how many first year students were excluded from the university in the first semester in the 2008/2009 academic year; and

(c) how many of the students who failed to meet the progression limits proceeded to the second semester in the above academic year.”

The response from the Deputy Minister of Education, Mr Sinyinda was as follows:

“Mr Speaker, the progression rate is 100 per cent because there are no promotional examinations from one semester to another. Mr Speaker, there was no progression exercise which was carried out after the first semester of 2008/2009. Students proceeded to the second semester and all of them registered their courses. Progression exercises for the two semesters will be done at the end of the second semester. This is a trial for reverting to having the progression exercise at the end of the academic year. Results of this exercise will be discussed by the Senate and the way forward agreed upon.

“Mr Speaker, all students proceeded to the second semester of the 2008/2009 academic year.

I thank you.”

From this answer, the hon. Minister was categorical that there was no progression exercise which was carried out after the first semester of 2008/2009 and that all University of Zambia (UNZA) students in 2008 progressed to the next semester.

Madam Speaker, the official website of UNZA whose address is:www.unza.zm has a full list of Senate results for all schools in the university for the first semester of 2008/2009 and the second semester.

Madam Speaker, whereas results for all the schools were released towards the end of the year, those of the schools of Natural Sciences, for instance, were released straight after the end of the first semester. In addition, again, contrary to the hon. Minister’s response that all students progressed to the second semester, the results of the School of Natural Sciences clearly shows that a number of students were excluded due to poor performance in the progression exercise and about forty students were excluded in the first semester. As though that was not enough, my research into this matter revealed that contrary to the hon. Minister’s assertion that UNZA was conducting a trial of eliminating progression exercise and moving away from a semester system to a yearly one, does not exist and that the Senate has never discussed such changes.

Madam Speaker, unless this House protects itself from being fed blatant exception from the truth or in other words, if this House continues to be subjected to falsehood, the results shall be too ghastly to contemplate and its honour and dignity shall cause irreversible damage.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Madam Speaker, in view of all this, I seek a ruling on whether the hon. Deputy Minister of Education is in order to continue sitting there pretending to have told Parliament the truth …

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: … when, in fact, he knows that he acted in breach of the Constitution, the Standing Orders of this House, Procedures and expected valour and Decorum.

Madam Speaker, I beg a, very well considered, ruling on this important matter and may I lay the results of the School of Natural Sciences on the Table.

Mr Mwenya laid the document on the Table.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Before I specifically give guidance on the question that has been raised, I would like to read to the House Standing Order No. 30.

 The marginal note is: Notice of Questions of Urgent Importance.
“ 30. (1) Questions which have not appeared on the Order Paper, but which are, in the Speaker’s opinion, of an urgent character and relate either to matters of public importance or to the arrangement of business may, with the leave of the Speaker, be asked without notice on any day.

“(2) Such a question shall be delivered in writing to the Speaker before 0930 hours on the day on which the member desires to ask.

“(3) For such a question to be asked on Friday, the question shall be delivered in writing to the Speaker before 1430 hours on Thursday, the previous day.”

 The rest must conform to the ordinary rules governing the question.

This is for general guidance to all of us who may feel that the Chair is not responding in the right manner. However, this is guidance for all of you to refer to. On this particular one, it is important that all hon. Members from both sides of the Chair know that it is not correct to mislead the House. It is a breach.

In order to restrain, therefore, to this, the Chair would not sit and say there was misinformation. I will give an opportunity to the hon. Minister to quickly verify the information that has come in relevance to the answers that were provided and let the clearance be brought to the House tomorrow.

The hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Zulu: Madam Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister to confirm if this money which was allocated to ZAPD in 2006, 2007 and 2008 was only used to pay salaries and terminal benefits.

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, we release a lump sum to ZAPD for its use and so we do not, really, know how it uses the money until it retires at the end of month showing us how the money was used. I cannot confirm whether that money was used for salaries or not, but what I know is that the money is Constituency Development Fund (CDF) money that comes from the ministry to help ZAPD to implement its programmes.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, since 2006 to 2008, there has been a reduction on the funding to ZAPD, especially on the expansion of the farm blocks. Will the hon. Minister tell this House why there is that reduction? It was K8 billion in 2007 to K5.9 billion in 2008.

Mr Kaingu: Madam, I thank the hon. Member for raising that question. The money comes from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and it is specifically meant for ZAPD. Our job is to give it to ZAPD, which we do upon its release from the ministry.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam, clearly, these figures are very low. When is the Government going to ratify and domesticate the United Nations Charter for Disabled Persons here in Zambia which will compel the Government to allocate adequate resources to cater for these disabled people?

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, very soon, indeed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Kaingu: We will ratify the convention for persons with disabilities.

Thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam, can the hon. Minister indicate how these allocations relate to the projections in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) as the question asked? How do those figures relate to the figures provided for in the FNDP? Can he also explain the reasons for the variances?

Mr Kaingu: Madam, we provide the resources according to the envelope. The hon. Member who has asked the question must know that we sit in this House to approve the resources accordingly and so I do not see how he can, actually, ask me that question.

Interruptions

Mr Kaingu: However, as regards the second question on why there is a difference between what was apportioned to ZAPD and what was released, I have already answered it. We receive money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and then release it accordingly. We do not even take a penny or ngwee out of it.

I thank you, Madam.

GRADE 10 CUT-OFF POINT SYSTEM

468. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education what the advantages of abolishing the cut-off point system for pupils to be selected to Grade 10 are.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, the abolition of the cut-off point will ensure that a lot of pupils proceed to Grade 10, thereby drastically reducing the number of drop outs at Grade 9. For example, in 2007 before the removal of the cut-off point, the national pass percentage was 37.15 per cent. However, after the removal of the cut-off point in 2008, the national pass percentage rose to 48.57 per cent giving a national progression rate of 11.42 per cent. With the increased number of Grade 10 places, cases of examination malpractices, at this level, are likely to be reduced.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisala: Madam, while I appreciate that the system is good because it will enable many citizens to benefit, but is the hon. Minister aware that this system is going to lower the standards of education in this country?

Mr Sinyinda: Madam, our priority is to avail opportunities to as many of our children as possible. The ministry has a number of challenges. For example, we know that we do not have space to build classrooms and enough teachers, but as you may know this is a working Government and we are building…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Sinyinda: … at the moment, forty-five high schools because we are a serious Government. At the same time, we have just signed a Memorandum of Understanding between the Ministry of Education and UNZA to train as many as 6,000 teachers. We have, at the same time, opened Nkrumah Teachers Training College and the Copperbelt Secondary Training College (COSETCO) so that we train more teachers. We know that we have challenges, but we are working on them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam, arising from the abolition…

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: … of this cut-off point system, has the hon. Minister of Education done a study to determine the country-wide pupil-teacher ratio at this point in time?

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, the removal of the cut-off point was introduced in 2008. Since then, we have received reports of some classes expanding overnight. Some classes which had about forty students now have more than sixty or seventy students. Obviously that is because of the challenge we are experiencing from the increased level of basic schools and lack of enough high schools to meet the demand. This is very early, but we wish we could have an appropriate pupil-teacher ratio of about one to forty. However, that was not the case even before the cut-off point was removed.

Our response, as a Government, is to increase the number of high schools. We have a three-year plan to build 100 high schools. Currently, we are working on forty-five high schools and we know that once we build these schools, we will definitely contribute to the reduction of the pupil-teacher ratio.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker: It is unbelievable that some hon. Members can continuously talk while the hon. Minister is giving a response and then rise to ask a question.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: It is extremely discouraging and not honourable.

Interruptions

Hon. Members Stood up!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can the hon. Members sit down? If hon. Members are interested in the responses, one would expect them to listen. The Chair is observing what is going on. It does not show interest in the issues that are being discussed. Yet, you want to stand up and ask.
Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, with the introduction of that system, the number of schools, countrywide, cannot absorb all those that qualify to higher grades. What assurance is the hon. Minister going to make to ensure that those with high marks are not disadvantaged because many of them complained that they could not be picked even after obtaining high marks as the schools preferred those with lower marks for some reasons?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, as a Government, we have a duty and mandate to provide school places in the education system. We also recognise that we are quite challenged. As a response and part of our attempt to meet some of the millennium development goals (MDGs) such as Education for All, particularly primary education, the Government has responded by expanding some existing basic schools, constructing new ones and working with the communities to provide community schools.

Madam Speaker, in 2008 when the decision was made to remove the cut-off point, the whole purpose was that each child that had attained a full certificate should proceed to Grade 10. In our answer, we informed the House that that since then, we have seen an increase of about 11.4 per cent in the progression rate.

Madam Speaker, we concede that we are currently challenged due to inadequate school places and our immediate response for the next three years is to build 100 high schools. We are already working on about forty-five high schools so that we can absorb some of the students that are not able to go to the existing schools.

At the same time, the private sector is responding very well. Since the education sector was liberalised in 1996, …

Hon. Government: Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: … the private sector has responded tremendously. Everyday, we continue to see Zambians and non-Zambians setting up high schools and complementing the Government’s efforts in the provision of high school education.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that the abolishment of the cut-off point will increase the number of pupils completing Grade 12, but be of no value to the Zambian challenges because of the very low skills that they are going to attain.

Mr Munaile: Quality!

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, as I have already stated, the Government has a responsibility to educate its citizens so that they have the values and skills that can take this country to a middle income country by 2030.

Madam Speaker, removing the cut-off point is one of the ways in which the Ministry of Education and the Government, as a whole, is not only attempting to meet the MDG on the provision of primary education for all, but also trying to provide life long continuous education. At the same time, this will give an opportunity to all those that obtain a full certificate to progress to Grade 10.

I do agree that this calls for a review of the education process. Unlike before when a child would proceed from Grade 1 to Grade 7 and only be concerned with the Grade 7 exam, currently we are looking at continuous assessment so that we can maintain the quality even as they get to Grade 7 or 9 where they take an exam for certification purposes. There will be continuous assessment so that we ensure that the children are not of low standards once they graduate. These are the issues that we are discussing with the stakeholders because we want to ensure that the educated citizens we have by 2030 have the right values and skills.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MANUFACTURE OF COCA-COLA

469. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry whether the Zambian Breweries Plc used the same ingredients used in other countries in manufacturing the Coca-Cola drink.

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, Zambia Breweries Plc uses the same ingredients used in other countries in manufacturing the Coca-Cola drink.

The actual production and distribution of Coca-Cola follows a franchising model. The Coca-Cola International Company only produces a syrup concentrate, which it sells to bottlers throughout the world who hold a franchise for one or more geographical areas.

The bottlers produce the final drink by mixing the syrup with filtered water and then carbonate it before putting it in cans or bottles which the bottlers then sell and distribute to the retail stores, vending machines, restaurants and food service distributors.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking the hon. Minister. However, I have a question for him.

Laughter

Mr Chisala: If the hon. Minister is saying they use the same ingredients, why is the taste so different from the products that are made in Malawi and South Africa?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we may recall that, in the past, there were sentiments that beer brewed on the Copperbelt and in Lusaka had a different taste. Therefore, this may be caused by the water.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister comment on the recent reports that Coca-Cola Zero is not fit for human consumption?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the sweetener that has been used in Coca-Cola Zero has obtained the approval of the Poisons Board.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

KAPIRI-MPOSHI GLASS FACTORY

470. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a) what developmental progress had taken place at Kapiri-Mposhi Glass Factory following the company’s privatisation; and

(b) when the factory was expected to start operations under the new ownership.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, Zambia National Commercial Bank Plc (ZANACO) sold the factory following the failure by Flocol, a German company that purchased it from the Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA). Some of the assets of Kapiri-Mposhi Glass Factory Limited sold to Chimsoro Milling Company Limited comprise the factory, five managers’ houses, two blocks of flats and a club while a receiver, Ernest and Young, was appointed to manage the rest of the assets.

Madam, the developmental process of Kapiri Glass Manufacturing Company Limited is as follows:

Madam, the company has since identified technical partners from India, who, in October, 2008, and February, 2009, visited the plant to check on the status of the equipment.

In March, Kapiri-Mposhi Glass Factory Limited signed a memorandum of understanding with its partner at the Hindhustan National Glass Industries of India. The company has carried out a due diligence study and technical audit. The partners have submitted an outline of the investment required which the board, together with its equity partners, has considered and put out to tender to ascertain the actual capital expenditure required. The company, in conjunction with its strategic partner, will be reviewing the proposals from potential plant and equipment suppliers from the United States of America (USA), Europe, China and India.

Madam, tender review and supply negotiations are going on currently. The company has engaged local and regional buyers of container glass to understand their requirements and to plan its future production accordingly. The projected date for opening the new plant will be established from the tender submissions on the lead times required for installation and commissioning of the plant. Once the plant is operational, it is expected to employ about 250 people.

I thank you, Madam. 
Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, for quite a number of years now, we have been getting similar responses about the opening of this factory. At the moment, the hon. Minister is unable to tell us when it will open. Can he, therefore, tell us unequivocally that this factory is likely to open very soon, like next year?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we are also anxious to see this plant open as quickly as possible. In this vein, we did, with the promoter, approach the PTA Bank, which is in town, at the moment, to discuss financing for the acquisition of the equipment and those negotiations are going on. It is expected that the outcome of these negotiations will speed up the re-opening of the plant.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, what plans did the new owner of Kapiri-Mposhi Glass Factory Limited have during privatisation and why is the Government getting involved now?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, one of the roles of the Government is facilitation. When the Government is approached to facilitate a transaction such as securing a financier, it is a response of the Government to connect the promoter to the financier in order to facilitate the arrangement of finance.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, what procedure is followed from the time a company is privatised to the point when it becomes operational? How long has it taken for Kapiri Glass Factory to go through this procedure and is it in conformity with the law?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the company was initially sold to a German company that proceeded to borrow some money from ZANACO. That company failed to meet its obligations. Consequently, Kapiri-Mposhi Glass Factory Limited was put under receivership and the new owner bought it from the receiver.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

KAFUE TEXTILES LIMITED

471. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a) what the financial status of Kafue Textiles Limited was as of 31st December, 2008;

(b) how much revenue the company generated from 2006 to 2008, year by year;

(c) how much money, in grants, the Government released to the company from 2006 to 2008, year by year; and

(d) whether the Government would ban the importation of chitenge material in order to protect the local industry.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, Kafue Textiles Zambia Limited (KTZ) was tranched by the Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA) for privatisation as part of Tranche 3 in 1994. ZPA made five attempts to privatise the company before a purchaser was identified in 2003. This was because at the time the company was bankrupt as it owed creditors over K182 billion and there was need to find a way of dealing with the creditors while preserving the assets and jobs at the company. Offers were received for the assets of the company when it was advertised in 2003, but they were not enough to cover its liabilities. In order to prevent the company from going into liquidation, it was proposed that a scheme of arrangement be proposed to the creditors to offer the company a fresh start. After negotiations with the winning bidder, MB International, the following arrangement was reached:

(i) purchase consideration of US$1 million for Kafue Textile Limited assets, excluding houses was paid;

(ii) debt owed to MB International by KTZ of US$330,000 was written off;

(iii) MB International agreed to engage local business suppliers to supply raw materials for the business thereby, enhancing local business activity; and

(iv) MB International committed capital expenditure to the extent of US$1,140,000 to be spent over a period of three years.

Madam Speaker, in order for the agreement to be implemented, the scheme of arrangement had to be approved by the court and the Government needed to forego its K155 billion claim against KTZ to increase the amount of money available for the other creditors.

Madam, ZPA also wrote-off 70 per cent of the K9.8 billion owed by KTZ to facilitate the scheme of arrangement. As a result of the Government and ZPA’s concession, the company’s total liabilities were reduced from K182 billion to K23.7 billion. Upon approval of the scheme of arrangement:

(i) all creditors had the first 10 million paid in full. Therefore, all creditors who were owed 10 million or less received their full payment. All amounts over and above 10 million were paid at a fixed rate of 18.15 per cent;

(ii) all employees were paid 50 per cent of what they were owed in accordance with the agreement signed with the Government; and

(iii) KTZ housing units were surrendered to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning as dividend and the Government is in the process of preparing to offer the houses to the sitting tenants.

Current Status

Madam Speaker, the current status is that MB International took possession of Kafue Textiles Limited assets in 2004, and has begun running the company under the name, African Textiles of Zambia Limited.

 Outstanding Issues

(a) Long Service Bonus ─ Non-unionised

Madam Speaker, this claim of long service bonus by non-unionised former  Kafue Textiles Limited employees is based on circular No. 190 of 1989, which was superseded by the updated conditions of service that were effected twelve years later on 1st April, 2001.

(b) Service Bonus ─ Unionised

Madam Speaker, the collective agreement item No. 5 sets up qualifications for different terminal benefits. Clause 5.2 and 5.3 specify that only medically discharged employees and those retired are to be paid the service bonus. However, retrenchees are also claiming this benefit.

(c) Balance Outstanding on agreed 50 per cent payment

Madam Speaker, employees have continued to pursue the balance of the 50 per cent of their terminal benefits despite approving the same under the scheme of arrangements approved by all creditors and sanctioned by the High Court.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the financial status of Kafue Textiles Limited as at 31st December, 2008, the company had no assets.

Madam Speaker, the company generated no revenue and the Government, during the period 2006 to 2008, did not release any money to it. The company is in the process of being deregistered.

Madam Speaker, there is no intention to ban the importation of chitenge material. However, if companies have genuine complaints, there are other measures that the Government can take to regulate the market.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, can the Hon. Minister state that the Government has actually failed in this industry. Can he further state whether the Government will move in to help sort out some of these issues at this institution so that we can continue having local products.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the purpose of entering the scheme of arrangement and subsequently selling the company was for the primary reason that we continue the operations of the company so that it continued to provide employment and contribute to Government revenue. The company is in the process of updating its technology so that it can meet the market conditions head on.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the Hon. Minister whether the Government has remained with some shares in the African Textiles of Zambia Limited.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the Government has no shares in KTZ. It is owned, 100 per cent, by the private sector.

I thank you, Madam. 
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, can the Hon. Minister confirm to this House that Zambia is not suitable for the textile industry in view of the fact that both Kafue and Mulungushi Textiles Limited have completely failed to stand as business entities.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, it is indeed correct to say that the textile industry in Zambia is facing significant challenges. In fact, the industry in Southern Africa, whether we are talking about Lesotho, Swaziland or Kenya is facing similar challenges. We are alive to these challenges. The Ministry of Defence is working out a solution to try and resuscitate the operations of Mulungushi Textiles Limited.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, I would like the Hon. Minister to tell us what is being done to protect the textile industry in Zambia from unfair competition. I am not making a general protectionist question, I mean unfair. I refer, particularly, to the far eastern practice known as “same, same”, …

Laughter

Dr Scott: …where somebody will buy a product in Zambia as a sample and take it to Far East, where there are massive subsidies and aggressive undervaluation of, for instance, the Chinese currency in order to flood markets world wide. What is this Government, which is so listening and alive to all these problems doing to protect our own manufacturing industry from subsidised manufacturing industries in China and elsewhere?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, in terms of global trade, that is a wider question.

Firstly, under the DOHA development round of negotiation, one of the elements that we are trying to attend to, is the elimination of  the export of subsidised products.

Secondly, we want to eliminate the subsidy that is provided domestically, that is creating the inability, particularly, in LDCs and make it difficult for them to penetrate the United States and Europe.

Madam Speaker, obviously, these conclusions have taken a bit of time. We will continue to engage and it is expected that by 2010, we would have concluded that DOHA development round so that some of the issues that he has raised will actually be resolved under a multilateral trading system that will be predictable, fair and equitable. 

Madam Speaker, regarding Zambia, there are two issues. One is that within the context of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and the Southern African Development Community (SADC), we trade on a Free Trade Area basis. However, goods coming from outside COMESA and SADC, labeled as finished goods, are levied duty at 25 per cent. That is the measured protection. Beyond this, if a specific industry feels injured by an influx of imported goods, they can apply to the Government for what we call safe cut measures. Therefore, if approached, we can evoke safe cut measures.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Speaker, is the Hon. Minister aware that in fact if you place an order with the textile company in Kafue, you are told that the order will be forwarded to their sister company in Tanzania where manufacturing will take place. What is this ministry going to do to ensure that this is does not persist?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I need to consult on the aspect of the transaction level of placing orders and where they are remitted. However, I do believe that Tanzania should not be more competitive than Zambia. We need to address the issue of why we are failing to compete with Tanzania when we have the same African conditions and the same technology. This is the fundamental issue that we need to address.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

MOUNT MAKULU RESEARCH STATION

472. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) what the latest position was regarding the Mount Makulu Research Station residences with sitting tenants who did not benefit from the  sale of Government houses; and

(b) what criteria were used to prohibit the sale of houses to sitting tenants at (a) when in fact the following sister institutions were permitted the same;

(i) National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research;

(ii) Zambia Wildlife Authority; and

(iii) Fisheries Department.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the aggrieved sitting tenants of Mount Makulu Research Station residences took the case to court and their case was rejected (lost the case) in the High Court ruling of 27th March, 2008 (Case No. 2003/MP/0841). However, the Attorney General’s Office has since advised that the case be taken to the Supreme Court.

Madam Speaker, the houses at Mount Makulu are classified as institutional houses. According to the Hand Book on the Civil Service House Ownership Scheme, Section 1.2, institutional houses were and are not offered for sale.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, houses at Mount Makulu were classified as institutional houses together with the houses at the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research. What is the difference between the two?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, I believe that the houses which were sold were outside the institution, but the ones which were not sold are on the same title with the institution. Therefore, the houses outside the institution are on the different title.

 I thank you Madam Speaker.

SCHOOLS IN ZAMBEZI WEST PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

473. Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when the following schools in Zambezi West Parliamentary Constituency would be granted high schools status:

(i) Chinyingi Upper Basic;

(ii) Mapachi Upper Basic;

(iii) Liyovu Upper Basic; and

(iv) Mwange Upper Basic;

(b) whether there were any plans to provide science laboratory facilities to the schools above; and

(c) what measures the Government had taken to ensure that these schools which were already offering Grade 12 classes were adequately funded to meet the needs of a high school.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda):  Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Education has stopped upgrading basic schools into high schools as this disadvantages pupils. The intention of the ministry therefore, is to build high schools countrywide. The Ministry encourages schools without permanent laboratories to procure mobile laboratories which are being manufactured by the National Science Centre

Madam Speaker, these are basic schools, they can not be funded directly as high schools. However, these schools are funded through the office of the district education board secretary according to their needs.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kakoma: Madam Speaker, may I find out what criteria is used to classify a school as a high school given that these schools that I have mentioned are already offering Grade 12 classes.

 Mr Sinyinda: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform this House that there is a difference between high school and an open school. Open schools are more less like night schools except that they operate in the afternoons. Therefore, the classes that are at these schools that I have mentioned here are open secondary schools.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ESTABLISHMENT OF A SUB-DISTRICT OFFICE IN MPIKA

474. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing whether there are any plans to establish a sub-district office for Mpika which was currently the largest district in the country.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Livestock and Veterinary Services) (Mr Machila): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that there are plans to establish sub-district offices for Mpika district considering its vastness. However, the idea of establishing sub-district offices in Mpika should come from the stakeholders in Mpika themselves and Government will facilitate the establishment of such sub-centres.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

HEALTH INSPECTOR/POPULATION RATIO IN MANDEVU

475. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what the health inspector/population ratio as stipulated by the World health Organisation was;

(b) how many health inspectors were assigned to Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency; and

(c) what the health inspector/population ratio is in Mandevu  Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the World Health Organisation standard for health inspectors per population is one health inspector per 10,000 population.

Madam Speaker, the number of health inspectors assigned to Mandevu Constituency is as follows:

 S/N        Name of Health             No. of Health Inspectors            No. of Environmental
              Centre                                                                              Health Technologists

 1           Ng’ombe                                         0                                            2
 2           Chipata                                           0                                            2
 3           Mandevu                                        1                                            1
 4           Garden Health Post                        0                                            0

  Total                                                           1                                            5

Madam Speaker, according to the 2000 Census of Population, the ratio of heath inspectors for the population in Mandevu Constituency is one health inspector per 31,326 population. Clearly, this is low compared to the World Health Organisation (WHO) recommended ratio of one health inspector per 10,000 people. This is due to the critical shortage of human resources in the health sector. However, the health inspectors are supported by five environmental health technologists who are based at the health centres as indicated above. These additional staff in the constituency bring the ratio to 1:5,221 population. Hence, the health inspector/population ratio in Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency is 1:5,221.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency is the biggest constituency in this country…

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Ms Kapata:…yes, it is by population. It is the biggest by population and the number of health inspectors in the area is not enough. We need more so that we can mitigate cholera.

 Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is debating. What is the question?

Ms Kapata: My question is what is the ministry doing to improve the situation in Mandevu as far as health inspectors are concerned.

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, we have even exceeded the figure by more than 50 per cent. Instead of 1: 10,000, we at 1: 5,000.

PARENTS TEACHERS’ ASSOCIATION MEETINGS

476. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education what measures the ministry had taken to compel public schools to hold Parents Teachers Association meetings annually which many school managers especially in rural areas, avoided.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, the lifespan of an elected Parents Teachers Association (PTA) is one year, according to the Education Act. Each school has an obligation to hold an Annual General Meeting (AGM) once per year at which members of the PTA executive are elected.

Provincial Education Officers (PEO) and District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) have been advised to see to it that each school holds an annual general meeting.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Education ensures that as standards officers inspect schools, they also check that schools have held their annual general meetings as required by the Education Act.

The holding of the PTA meetings annually is the responsibility of parents who should make sure that such meetings are held and the Chairpersons of the PTA, who are parents of the children, should ensure that this is held annually.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, in certain schools, particularly in the constituency where I come from, annual general meetings are never held. As a result, this intransigent behaviour of some school managers is a leading factor in the conflicts that we are currently facing.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: As a matter of urgency, what does the hon. Minister intend to do as a way of curbing this problem?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda: Madam Speaker, in our answer, we have stated that it is the responsibility of the parents and teachers to hold the meetings. As a ministry, we set the rules and regulations. However, the hon. Member who is asking that question is a member of the community and a member of the Parents Teachers Association and is supposed to ensure that such meetings are held.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda: If he is failing to help organise such meetings to take place, then he is supposed to report to us. At the moment, we have not received any information from his constituency that parents are failing to hold such meetings. I urge him to go and ask the head teacher and the chairperson to start holding these meetings.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ZAMPALM LIMITED

477. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Lands:

(a) what the total hectarage of land given to Zampalm Limited in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency was;

(b) whether the land was on title;

(c) what the purpose for which the land had been given was;

(d) whether the Government would allocate more land to the company; and

(e) which chiefdoms in the constituency would benefit from the above investment.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Mabenga): Madam Speaker, Zampalm Limited was given a total of 20,101 hectares of land in the Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency broken down as follows:

 (i) F/10746 -   3,000.796 hectares
 (ii) F/10747 - 12,711.815 hectares
 (iii) F/10748 -   4,389.278 hectares
       Total -      20,101.000 hectares

Madam, the three farms which total 20,101.000 hectares are held on title since 29th May, 2009.

The land was given for the growing of palm trees and processing of palm oil.

The Government may allocate more land upon application by the company.

Madam, the investment covers land falling under Senior Chief Kopa, Chief Kabinga and Chief Luchembe.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, how many years have been tied to this land which has been given on title?

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, the title is for ninety-nine years.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, ninety-nine years is a long time. In fact, even nine years is a long time. The technology of growing palm oil in Zambia is not fully developed, especially in the Kanchibiya area, and of course the marketing situation is open to all sorts of questions. At the moment, it is being imported very cheaply from Kenya but it actually originates from elsewhere. Should this project fail, what will happen to the 20,101 hectares? Will it be returned to the people who owned it in 2008?

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, we do not want to speculate. When the problem comes up at an appropriate time, we will be able to solve the matter there and then.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema (Chingola): Madam Speaker, has the hon. Minister of Lands got intentions of giving land to these investors on lease rather than on title?

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, in our ministry, we deal with applications. Clients apply and then we process the applications according to the request. Outside that, we will not do otherwise.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

REVIEW OF MINIMUM WAGES AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYEES ACT

478. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) when the Government would review the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment Act, Chapter 276 of the Laws of Zambia;

(b) what had caused the delay to undertake the review at (a) above; and

(c) whether the Government was satisfied with the current Act.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Kachimba): Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate intention to review the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment Act, Chapter 276 of the Laws of Zambia because, in its current form, the law is adequate. This law is an enabling Act which empowers the minister to review the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment for vulnerable and protected employees through issuance of a statutory instrument to regulate terms and conditions of employment.

At present there are two statutory instruments Nos. 56 and 57 of 2006 for shop workers and general application respectively. Plans to review the two statutory instruments are underway and a technical committee appointed by the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council has been tasked to work on the review of the minimum wages under these two statutory instruments.

Madam Speaker, there is no delay in undertaking the review of the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment Act, Chapter 276 of the Laws of Zambia because the Government has no immediate intention to review it. The only issue being addressed is the review of statutory instruments Nos. 56 and 57.

Madam, there is no fixed period within which the minimum wages are supposed to be reviewed. Under the current provision of the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment Act, the minister may review the minimum wages at any time. However, by standard practice, the minimum wages have, over the years, been reviewed after a period of two years. In this case, the minimum wages under statutory instruments Nos. 56 and 57 issued in 2006 were expected to be reviewed by July 2008, but due to protracted consultations with the social partners (employers and workers), this was not possible. It is hoped that the review process may be concluded by the end of this year.

Madam Speaker, as stated above in (a), the Government has no problem with the Principal Act.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security is on record as indicating that the Government will review the minimum wages and, through the Tripartite Consultative Council, the three parties have agreed to review this Act. Will the hon. Minister give the reason why he has changed the position?

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili is mixing up two issues here; the issue of minimum wage and also the issue of Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment Act. We are not reviewing the Act. However, we are reviewing the minimum wage which falls under the statutory instrument empowered by the Act itself and so, there is no shift of position.

We are proceeding to review the minimum wage and, in fact, that is what the hon. Deputy Minister read out in the answer. This review is under the technical committee tasked by the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council and we are hopeful that by September, when the council’s full meeting will be held, the matter will be put to rest.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out when the Government will appoint a commission to look at the conditions of service for the workers as announced by the President at the press conference where he was baptised by a monkey.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That is a totally different question.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, the current minimum wage for shopkeepers is K268,000 as indicated in Statutory Instrument No. 56. May I know from the hon. Minister whether he will consider the review of the statutory instrument in view of the fact that in the current economic situation, one cannot survive on K268,000? Why are you not treating this as an emergency so that our people can have better lives?

Mr Liato: Madam Speaker, the Government is treating this matter with a lot of urgency, except that the Government believes in consultation. We do not work alone and we do not want to be blamed for making unilateral decisions. That is why we have involved our social partners, the employers and the workers who are part of the review process and all of us are viewing it with urgency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

RETIREMENT PACKAGE OF FORMER CENTRAL BOARD OF HEALTH EMPLOYEES

479. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much money the Government spent on the retirement packages of former employees of the Central Board of Health; and

(b) who funded the retirement packages.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Madam Speaker, the Government has a total liability of K7,827,651,920 on the retirement packages of the former employees of the Central Board of Health. There are three sources of funding for retirement packages, namely, the Government, Centre for Disease Control (CDC) and Global Fund. This is due to the fact that the employees of the Central Board of Health were in three categories.

The first category is that of employees who were directly employed and fully paid through GRZ grants allocated for personal emoluments. The second category is that of employees who were employed under the Central Board of Health but paid under the Global Fund, as agreed in their individual contracts. This category of employees was recruited to strengthen capacity on implementing Global Fund activities in line with grant financial agreements. The third category is that of project staff employed in the Central Board of Health but paid as agreed under the CDC/ Central Board of Health co-operative agreement. The staff were mainly employed to support implementation of activities under the CDC co-operative agreement.

Madam Speaker, these officers are being paid according to their individual contract of employment provisions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, it is common knowledge that a lot of people who were working for the Central Board of Health have not been paid and yet the law on retrenchment entails that one has to be given the retrenchment letter together with the cheque. May I know why the Government is the culprit in abrogating the law that they are supposed to protect?

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the requirements of the law but there are challenges in funding some of the aspects of payments on the terminal benefits. As you know, the Government is a very large employer and there are some constraints in making sure that we meet all the funding requirements. We are aware of this problem and we are doing our best to settle this.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, we are aware that some of these former employees have been re-employed by the Government. Could the hon. Minister state whether these employees are on permanent and pensionable conditions or they are on contracts?

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Madam Speaker, that is dependent on the kind of jobs that they are doing. I do not have that details with me. As you can appreciate, that information would be better if it came from the relevant ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

UNIVERSITY TEACHING HOSPITAL CANCER UNIT

480. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when the second phase of the Cancer Unit at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) in Lusaka would be built;

(b) how many cancer patients had so far received treatment at the Cancer Unit at the UTH from inception to date, year by year;

(c) how many cancer patients were sent abroad for treatment during the period at (b) above and what the reasons were; and

(d) what the estimated total cost of treatment for patients at (c) was.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, construction of the second phase of the Cancer Diseases Hospital (CDH) will commence immediately funds become available. A proposal for a loan to construct the second phase of the CDH was submitted to the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) Fund in December, 2008 and was approved by the secretariat of the fund. The proposal is now awaiting consideration by the Executive Board of OPEC for final approval. Once approval is granted, the Government will effect a loan and commence implementation of the activities in the proposal.

The second phase of the hospital is expected to cost about US $9.5 million. The OPEC Fund will contribute US $6.8 million while the Zambian Government will contribute US $2.6 million. The works envisaged will include training of personnel, construction, procurement and installation of equipment.

Madam Speaker, the number of patients who have received treatment at the Cancer Diseases Hospital since its inception in 2006 is as follows:

 Year                  Number of patients
2006                          37
2007                          719
2008                       1,204
2009                          339 (as at 18th March, 2009.
Total                       2,299

Madam Speaker, during the same period, only three patients were sent abroad for treatment on Government funding. The first patient had thyroid cancer requiring radioactive iodine treatment which is not yet available in the country. The second and third patients had multiple myeloma and lymphoma in the spinal cord, respectively.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of the patients referred to above is US $70,000.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that in terms of Article 44(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, this House do approve the Government ministries and departments established by the President appended hereto, that is to say the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and Ministry of Veterinary Services Livestock and Fisheries.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is straightforward and non-controversial, as it seeks the approval of this House for the creation of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development. Hon. Members may recall that in 2008, His Excellency the President appointed two Ministers in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. One hon. Minister was to be responsible for Agriculture and Co-operatives while the other was to take charge of livestock and fisheries development.

In 2009, His Excellency the President made a pronouncement to the effect that the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives would be split into two ministries namely; the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development.

The major challenge His Excellency the President was addressing through this change has been the lopsided emphasis on crop production and more specifically, maize production at the expense of other areas in agriculture, such as livestock disease control and fisheries development.

Dr Mwansa: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This challenge is even demonstrated through the budget allocation of which a considerable percentage of the ministry’s budget goes to the purchase of maize and distribution of fertiliser. Meanwhile, livestock and fisheries production have comparatively lower budget provisions, thereby inhibiting their viability and growth.

Madam Speaker, much as the Government recognises that maize is an important staple food, livestock and fisheries production are equally important and require equal attention.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Enhanced livestock and fish production has immerse social economic benefits as has been demonstrated by countries such as Botswana and Angola, which are earning a lot of foreign exchange through sells of beef and fish respectively.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is, therefore, the Government’s view that livestock and fisheries development be accorded priority consideration in enhancing both food security and foreign exchange earning. However, at present, the organisation set up of the current ministry has led to the overshadowing of the two areas.

In the view of the above, therefore, it was decided that the current Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives be reorganised into the two ministries of Agriculture and Co-operatives and Livestock and Fisheries Development. This will ensure that each hon. Minister has responsibility for specific portfolios under each sector. It is, therefore, the Government’s intention of allocating equal prominence and importance to issues of veterinary services, livestock and fisheries production as well as those of crop production, input distribution and co-operatives.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members may wish to note that the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will have the following portfolio and statutory functions:

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1610 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker,

Portfolio Functions

The proposed Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will have the following portfolio functions:

(i) agriculture and Co-operatives Policy;
(ii) agriculture Economics and Market Development;
(iii) co-operatives Development;
(iv) field services;
(v) food security;
(vi) agriculture Research and Specialist Services;
(vii) rural Finance;
(viii) agriculture Market Policy;
(ix) irrigation Development;
(x) agriculture Extension;
(xi) agriculture Training; and 
(xii) seeds, Standards and Grade.

Statutory Functions

I must emphasise that it is the prerogative of His Excellency the President to prescribe or allocate statutory functions to ministries. However, I also wish to list some of the laws which relate to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives statutory function as follows:

(i) Agriculture Products Levy Act   Cap. 232
(ii) Agriculture Fertilisers and Feed   Cap. 226
(iii) plant Variety and Seeds Act   Cap 236
(iv) Agricultural Credits Act    Cap. 224
(v) Agricultural Statistics Act    Cap. 229
(vi) Coffee Act      Cap. 228
(vii) Co-operative Societies Act    Cap. 397
(viii) Cotton Act      Cap. 227
(ix) Food Reserve Act     Cap. 225
(x) Noxious Weeds Act     Cap. 231;
(xi) Plant, Pests and Diseases Act    Cap. 233; and 
(xii) Tobacco Levy Act     Cap. 238.

Structure of the Ministry

The Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will remain with the following departments:

(i) affice of the Permanent Secretary;
(ii) department of Agriculture;
(iii) Zambia Agriculture Research Institute;
(iv) seed Control and Certification Institute;
(v) department of Co-operatives Development;
(vi) department of Agribusiness and Market Development;
(vii) department of Policy and Planning;
(viii) department of Human Resources and Administration;
(ix) national Agricultural Information Services;
(x) provincial Agriculture Co-ordinating Offices; and 
(xi) district Agriculture Co-ordinating offices.

The Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will, therefore, focus on food crops such as maize, cassava, sorghum, millet, sweet potatoes, beans, wheat and groundnuts and these will be targeted for increased production and productivity. Others to be targeted for production and research include indigenous horticultural crops, fruits and vegetables. With regard to commercialisation of the agricultural sector, it is expected that an increased number of small-scale farmers will be fully integrated into commercial production throughout grower arrangements or as individuals.

Major cash and high value crops to be targeted include cotton, tobacco, groundnuts, paprika, cashew nuts, soya beans, castor, sesame, marigold, herbs and spices in agro-ecological regions I and II. Coffee, tea, and sugar will be targeted in region III3. Large-scale commercial farm production of cash and export crops like floriculture and horticultural products will also be promoted.

The Government, through the ministry, will also endeavour to promote the formation of co-operatives and strengthen their operations so that they become the main conduit for socio-economic development, contributing to poverty eradication.

The Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development

Portfolio Functions

The proposed Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development will have the following portfolio functions:

(i) veterinary and tsetse control service;
(ii) livestock development;
(iii) fisheries development;
(iv) livestock, veterinary and fisheries training;
(v) fisheries and livestock extension; and
(vi) fisheries and livestock research.

Statutory Functions

The Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development will have the following statutory functions:

(i) Cattle cleansing    Cap. 248
(ii) Cattle slaughter Control   Cap. 250
(iii) Control of Dogs    Cap. 427
(iv) Dairies and dairy Produce   Cap. 230
(v) Export of Pigs     Cap. 246
(vi) Fisheries     Cap. 200
(vii) Pig Industry     Cap. 251
(viii) Prevention of Cruelty to Animals  Cap. 245
(ix) Stock Diseases    Cap. 252;
(x) Tsetse Control     Cap. 249;
(xi) Veterinary Surgeons    Cap. 243;
(xii) Public Pounds and trespass   Cap. 253;
(xiii) Brands      Cap. 244;
(xiv) Fencing     Cap.190;
(xv) Agriculture (Fertiliser and Feed).This Cap.226,                              one overlaps with the Ministry of 
  Agriculture and Co-operatives and as I said, 
 it is the prerogative of the President to allocate
  statutory functions;
(xvi) Dairy Produce Board (Establishment)  Cap. 235; and
(xvii) Extermination of Mosquitoes    Cap. 312;

Structure of the Ministry

The Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development will retain the two core departments to which new support departments will be added. The proposed departments will be as follows:

(i) office of the permanent secretary;
(ii) veterinary and livestock development;
(iii) fisheries; and
(iv) human resource and administration.

In the livestock sector, the main thrust will be to control livestock diseases of an epidemic nature and with trans-boundary (regional/ international) significance. The other area of emphasis will be restocking, stocking and increasing overall production, productivity and management of marketable livestock and livestock products, especially in the traditional sector.

The fisheries sub-sector will focus on promoting community-based resource management of capture fisheries, thereby improving catches. Concerted efforts will be made to promote aquaculture development and restocking natural water bodies with fish seed. Better processing facilities will be promoted and the distribution network improved.

Implication of reorganising the ministry

The reorganisation of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operative in order to ensure focus on crop production on one hand and livestock and fisheries production on the other will have the following implications:

(i) new posts mostly for support services like secretarial, human resource management, accounts and audit and procurement will have to be created for the Ministry of Veterinary, Livestock and Fisheries Development. However, this cost will be partly compensated for by the reduction in staff in the remaining Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. The reduced ministry will have to give up some of its support staff and resources to the new ministry.

(ii) at the moment, the ministry is serviced by two Permanent Secretaries. One is in charge of agriculture and is also the controlling officer while the other is in charge of co-operatives and is not a controlling officer. With the appointment of another hon. Minister and the need to strengthen the veterinary services, livestock and fisheries functions, there is need to reassign the other Permanent Secretary to be in charge of veterinary services, livestock and fisheries functions and be made a controlling officer. In this regard, there will be need to rationalise the administrative structure of the ministry.

Staffing and financial implications

The recommended organisational structure in this report will result into unavoidable changes in both staffing and financial matters and these will have to be budgeted for.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Some hon. Members stood up.

Madam Deputy Speaker: No question has been put.

Laughter

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for this opportunity to debate. From the outset, let me state very clearly and categorically that I believe this move, in view of the state of our agriculture sector as a whole, is progressive …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … because the sector can be turned into a major contributor to the Gross Domestic Produce (GDP) and overall economy of this country. So far, either because of the size of the ministry or whatever other reasons, the sector has not contributed in the manner that it should.

Madam Speaker, agriculture plays a pivotal role in ensuring food security and is also a major provider of employment and livelihood for a great cross section of our communities. The split in the functions of the two ministries is long overdue. I believe that the core ministry that will deal with crop agriculture must not be a stand alone ministry, but that the Government would do well to ensure that it provides the impetus to grow the agricultural sector in the manner that it contributes to the GDP growth and economy of this country.

Madam Speaker, I believe that the agricultural sector, if it is run properly, will ensure that crops such as maize are produced in the most efficient manner.  We should ask ourselves why major inputs, such as a 50 kilogram bag of fertiliser, into the crop agriculture in Zambia are sold to our farmers at a figure just below K300,000, which is about US$60. In other places, like in the Middle East, fertiliser is bought at between US$5 and US$10. We, therefore, want to know who is reaping off our farmers.

The overpricing of agricultural inputs is what is known in politics as ‘the poor subsidising the rich’ and I believe the Executive should work on this issue. What I mean by this is that commodities such as fuel and fertiliser are very expensive in the remotest parts of this country.  However, in the same remote areas, farm products such as maize, rice and milk are very cheap.

Mr Munaile: Mango.

Mr Milupi: In economic terms, this means that the poor, who are already on their knees, are subsidising those that are not so poor; the rich.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: We want this Government to look into this matter and ensure that there is equity in the way we share the resources of this country. We want the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to deal with crops and ensure that the production of cereal crops is a lot more efficient.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the livestock industry, I welcome this move from the Government, more especially because of the potential that lies in the livestock industry. Other countries which are not as well endowed as Zambia have made great strides in benefiting from the livestock industry.

Madam Speaker, Botswana, for instance, which we all know, without wishing to offend anybody, is partially covered by the Kalahari Desert and has very little water. At independence, they had fewer cattle than Southern, Central, Eastern and Western provinces. Today, as we speak, in this House, Botswana is a major beef exporter to areas such as Europe and the Far East. Beef is a major contributor to the gross domestic product (GDP) of that country. No wonder that country is now termed a middle income country while we are not. This country is endowed with rivers, lakes and vast grasslands. In fact, it is said that 60 per cent of the surface water in the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) region is in this country. 30 per cent of the surface water in sub-Saharan Africa is in this country, and yet our livestock industry is not functioning the way it should.

Madam Speaker, Namibia, three quarters of which is covered by the Kalahari Desert, in this year’s budget and allocations, which Hon. Mutati, who deals with economic partnership agreements (EPAs) will confirm, has a quota to export 10,000 tonnes of beef to the European Union this year alone.

Madam Speaker, that equates to 40,000 heads of cattle, which is 10 per cent of the cattle population in Southern Province alone. Imagine 10 per cent of the cattle population of Southern or Western provinces being exported to Europe. This would create wealth and employment for our country.

Madam Speaker, the split of these two ministries should not just be intended to provide employment or increase the Cabinet, Permanent Secretaries or Deputy Ministers.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: It should be an effective tool to ensure that our people are serviced and we grow our economy and revenue base so that, as a country, we foster the development that is so much desired, especially for the poor people.

Mr V. Mwale: Wamvera Machila?

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, it is absolutely disgraceful that when there are cattle diseases in this country such as foot and mouth disease and contagious bovine pleuro-pneumonia (CBPP) we have to go to Botswana to have the diseases cultured and buy vaccines from there. I hope that whoever is going to be the Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development will ensure that as part of the development of the livestock industry, facilities to manufacture these vaccines are created. We want to have a situation where diseases like anthrax, CBPP, foot and mouth and East Coast fever are a thing of the past so that we can have a thriving cattle industry in the country.

Finally, coming to the fisheries industry, let us recognise that certain people in Luapula, Western and certain parts of Northern Province depend, to a large extent, on the fisheries and fishing sector. So far, this sector has been left to its own devices. There is absolutely no governance there. The fish is over fished and there is no stocking or improvement in the fishing industry. We want the new ministry to take a proactive line in ensuring that this country benefits from its vast lakes and rivers by creating a viable fishing industry. We want to make sure that this sector also contributes to the national coffers.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, in the same vein, we want the fishing industry to ensure that aqua-culture is encouraged so that we are able to use our fish dams and ponds to restock our natural water-ways.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: This is absolutely essential. When you go to places like South Africa, you will hear …

Mr V. Mwale: Malawi!

Mr Milupi: The reason I left out Malawi is because I want to use that as an example. If you went to a restaurant in Johannesburg today, you would find Malawi Jambo which is a fish which is specific to Malawi. Since they have looked after it, it is now sold all over the world. How come we do not have Zambezi, Kafue or Mweru Bream or Nkupi, which is found in the region this hon. Member (Mr Munaile) comes from? We have to develop this.

With that, Madam Speaker, I support this move, but let it be an efficient way of ensuring that our people benefit from our resources in terms of agriculture, livestock and fisheries.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Speaker, I stand to support this positive Motion which is a move in the right direction.

If the Government had acted fast, we would not have had the problem of two ministries being fused into the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources without the new ministry being brought to this House for approval. The two ministries in the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources are still in existence and the fused ministry is illegal because this House did not approve it.

Madam Speaker, I support this split because it came from the proposal of your Committee on Agriculture and Lands. Thanks also go to the Opposition that kept on pushing for the formation of the Ministry of Livestock. At one time, when I debated I stated that the other Minister was like a junior minister because he did not have a proper ministry, and this is the correct situation.

However, we need to carefully check what we are doing. The statement which His Honour the Vice-President made needs to be reconsidered. Agriculture is not agriculture because of crops, it is crops and livestock and many other things. Since you have separated them, you cannot call one ministry Agriculture when you have specified that certain activities in agriculture have been removed from that ministry. The other ministry should be known as the Ministry for Crops and not agriculture. In so doing, we shall know that when we go to Hon. Dr Chituwo, we are going to talk about crops and the co-operative movement. This is because the other ministry is also concerned with agriculture.

Mr Hachipuka: When we come into office, we will change it.

Mr Muntanga: Further, His Honour the Vice-President has to bring all the statutory functions in the Acts to this House. This is because agricultural products include livestock products. Therefore, we need to specify that the other ministry will deal with crop products. We need to change the names of the Acts so that they specify what they are concerned with. It will be ideal when you specify that you have coffee, cotton or tobacco. That is why the Tobacco Act was split. We now have the Tobacco Levy.

In fact, this ministry should be separated further because you will find that there is agriculture, fertiliser and feed in both ministries because stock-feed is related to crops. In agriculture, there is crop husbandry. Therefore, you ought to specify this.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, fertiliser and feed are in both ministries, because of stock-feed and crops. You need to separate the two to avoid ambiguity. There will be problems deciding which ministry to go to when you have agriculture, fertiliser and feed. It should be specified that the ministry in charge of fertiliser for crops is the Ministry of Crops. If you are dealing with crops in relation to stock-feed for livestock, it should be specified. That way, His Honour the Vice-president, you will steered these functions to the rightful place. I know that there will be more work because you have to look at the Acts. Even the titles of the Acts should change.

Madam Speaker, the other issue concerns the Budget preparation. I hope the preparation has targeted the separation of the two ministries. When the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) came into power, district agricultural co-ordinating committees (DACCs) were created. You allowed one district agricultural co-ordinating officer (DACO) for each district. Since the ministry has been split into two, this has to be revisited. The DACOs should not try to usurp the powers of the one in charge of the livestock ministry. At the moment, the district veterinary officers in many districts have been made DACOs. However, they now belong to a different ministry. The DACO, who is a district veterinary officer in charge of DACC, will now specialise and concentrate on the livestock sector. Therefore, this arrangement which the MMD Government put in place should be checked and reorganised. If you do not do it, we will do it when we come into power because we know exactly what should be done.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Since this is good, we urge the Government to do it correctly. We have advised you on this on several occasions. Since you have decided to heed our advice, we would like you to do the right thing. We congratulate you for splitting the ministry, but you should not end there. You should go further and split the DACCs as well.

Hon. Government Members: Fyafula.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I do not understand why hon. Government Members should say fyafula meaning it is enough when they do not understand what I am saying. I pity them, especially …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Kalomo should speak through the Chair to avoid interjections.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Muntanga: The hon. Member interjecting has very little knowledge of what I am talking about.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, research is done for both crop and livestock farming. However, it is important to specify research on agriculture through a specialist division. We also need a special division to research on livestock. We need to improve the different breeds of cattle. What was started in the early days of our independence should be revisited. The research on cattle should be resumed. However, this will not happen back if it is left under agricultural research. That is why the split of the ministries must be meaningful and to the core.

Madam Speaker, I know that the creation of structures is a prerogative of His Excellency the President, but he will only do what he is advised by people who understand the way things work. Those people at the ministry, I believe, know exactly what has to be done. The hon. Minister should sit down and work with them.

With the rearrangement of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, we must now go and look at the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. We simply lumped two ministries together. The MMD Government illegally fused the ministries of Environment and Natural Resources and Tourism into one without bringing it to the House for approval. The Ministry of Tourism and the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources were separate entities.

In splitting the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, it is important that we look at the various environmental factors which we need to develop the two ministries concerned with agriculture. I believe that with this positive movement, and His Honour the Vice-President nodding to what I am saying unlike others who are making noise for lack of understanding my debate, I would like …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! It is not the role of the hon. Member to maintain order in this House. He may just debate freely.

You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam, I now wish to come to the question of fencing farms, which is regulated by an Act of Parliament. Perhaps, all the factors should be considered so that fencing is taken wholesomely so that even our roads are protected. The Ministry of Livestock will notice that presently when an animal breaks through the fence and is hit by a vehicle, the farmer loses the animal and still pays the owner of the vehicle. An animal does not think like a person, thus, a person who sees an animal and does not slow down should be penalised. Therefore, this new ministry…

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Muntanga: … should look into this. You should not penalise a farmer who has fenced his farm because an animal has broken through the fence while a person who has all the brains and intelligence does not slow down and kills the animal. He should not go to the owner to ask for payment. Some of these laws must be looked at. Short of that, the Government must copy what other countries are doing. For example, Botswana advises farmers to fence their farms. The fences are properly done to avoid animals going out of the fences.

Madam, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand to support the splitting of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives into two ministries and departments.

Madam Speaker, this decision is long overdue. It is good that the Government is walking the talk and not talking the walk.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the Government needs to go a step further in realising its objective considering that the MMD Government places agriculture as its number one priority. Therefore, apart from splitting the ministry, we must take money to the ministries that have been created.

Madam Speaker, I heard the Vice-President and Minister of Justice say that there will be an implication in terms of the Budget and that the money will have to be shared. I hope that we will not have a situation where K1 trillion is shared between the two ministries. We would like to see a budget that will be something like K2 trillion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: In that way, we will be walking the talk. We need to ensure that money goes to these two ministries that have been created if the idea was that of prioritising the agricultural sector in this country.

Madam Speaker, the other point that I wanted to raise is related to what Hon. Muntanga said. I thank him for that debate because it was very educative for the town boys and girls that do not understand agriculture.

Interruption

Hon. Members: There are no boys and girls in this House.

Madam Deputy Speaker: There are no boys and girls in this House.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, it is not in this House, but out there.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: In this House, there men and women.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I think it was educative even to the hon. Members in the House as well.

Madam Speaker, whilst the point that has been articulated by Hon. Muntanga was genuine, I think that, at this stage in time, it may not be possible because when you look at the statutory functions that are already in the pieces of legislation, you will find that the heading, for example under agriculture covers both crop and livestock. Therefore, if at this stage, the Government decided to split those areas, the action that has been taken now will take a bit of time to implement. In future, when the various pieces of legislation will have to be changed, may be that is when the change can take effect. For now, we must support the split because it is a progressive idea and has been long overdue.

Madam Speaker, as I said, it will be meaningless if we create two ministries without employing more professional people especially those that will be on the ground like extension and livestock officers and not just secretaries. We do not just need secretaries at the head office to support hon. Ministers and permanent secretaries. We would like to have more technical officers on the ground. Therefore, in terms of budgeting, that must be taken into account. The establishment of these ministries is timely because it has come at a time when the Government has changed the budget cycle. This means that it will give the relevant ministry ample time to budget for all these issues that we are talking about.

Madam Speaker, you will note that the previous budgets for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives had what we may consider a big amount in comparison to other sectors when in real effect, most of that money only went to two items. These were supporting the purchase of maize and the importation of fertilisers and other inputs. Yet, the other sub-sectors of agriculture especially livestock were not catered for because the ministry did not have adequate resources. With this separation, we will be able to see the truth because it will expose the ministry and it various functions. We will be able to look at how much money is going to be allocated for livestock and crop production respectively. I think this is a very good step that the Government has taken.

Madam Speaker, I also want to use this opportunity to implore the Government to also extend to the Ministry of Gender.  This is another department that is neither here nor there yet, its function is very important. I hope that before, we get to the budget process, the Government can seriously look at establishing a fully fledged Ministry of Gender so that the issues of gender can be adequately addressed. At the moment, we are just getting lip service even in terms of budget allocation although we know that this country has more women than men and that women are doing a better job than men …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, as you can see, because they are many, they are trying to bring …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Can I be protected.

Mr Magande: You are not protected.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am being disturbed by the men.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is supposed to be focused on the Chair and not listen to things from other hon. Members with different agendas.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am still on the same agenda which is about the creation of departments. This is a very good decision and I am appealing to the Executive to ensure that this is extended to other equally important departments which will have a bearing on the establishment of the two ministries of agriculture.

I hope that with the concentration, separation and specialisation of livestock on one hand and crops on the other hand, we will not have hon. Members of Parliament coming from some fishing districts, like Chienge, asking for restocking of cattle.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: I hope that they can leave that for districts like Chongwe which depend on cattle rearing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: The relevant ministry can deal with issues of cattle and fish restocking.

Dr Kalumba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Points of order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, I have never risen on a point of order.

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe in order to insinuate that people in Luapula Province are not, I emphasise or do not take livestock development as part of their culture. I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That was a serious point of order especially that there are a lot of goats in …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: … Luapula Province. The hon. Member may consider that point of order in her debate.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I will take note of that, but I hope that with this specialisation of the Ministry of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries and the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, we will see more emphasis on livestock development. Indeed, like somebody said earlier, we can create employment for our people through agriculture. If you look at a country that is even smaller than Zambia, Botswana, we are told that its economy largely depends on livestock. The fact that we had one ministry responsible for agriculture dealing with all these issues created a situation where Zambians thought that agriculture meant the growing and buying of maize by the Government. As a result, the livestock industry was underplayed.

Now that these two ministries have been separated, we will begin to see the good development of the livestock and fisheries industry and the same emphasis will continue with the crop industry.

Madam Speaker, I hope that those that are under the Ministry of Agricultural and Co-operatives dealing with crops will not underplay their colleagues in the livestock sector. When it comes to sharing assets, they must not behave like the big brother or the big fish or is it the big sister?

We want to have two ministries that are equally important in terms of assets and allocations. That way, I believe that the dream or the vision of using agriculture as the backbone for our economy will be realised. As somebody has already alluded to, agriculture is one field that can actually create employment for our people. It does not need one to go to school. Zambians are agriculturists by nature. All we need is to have a good Government structure which is responsible for the needs of the people in terms of wiping out the livestock and crop diseases…

Mrs Masebo asked for water to drink.

Laughter

Mr Magande gave Mrs Masebo some water to drink.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member has run out of points.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: She may conclude now since she has received the water.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I want to say that this is a good decision. It has been long over due, they are walking the talk instead of talking the walk as the hon. Member for Kabwata once told this House.

Madam Speaker, I just want to commend the Government and congratulate my young brother Obama, the hon. Minister for Agriculture and Co-operatives (Livestock and Veterinary Services) for being…

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Chongwe has suddenly found Obamas as young brothers in the House.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Such things are totally strange in the House. I am sure she has concluded.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chief Whip (Mr Mwaanga): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to make a very brief contribution to the motion which His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has ably introduced, which would have the effect of splitting the ministry into two.

Madam Speaker, it has been the cry of our people for many years now that they wanted to see these two ministries become stand alone ministries with various specific responsibilities for each one of them. I am aware that the farmers of Zambia have been urging Government from the days of the one party system to introduce a ministry which would be responsible, specifically for veterinary services, livestock and fisheries.

Madam, I am also aware that our people in areas which are dependent on fish for their survival have been urging Government to do this for many years now. I know that the farmers have been consulted and have said that this is an arrangement which they would like to see Government undertaking. Our citizens who rely on fish for their livelihoods in many parts of Zambia have been urging Government to give serious attention to issues of their economic survival in areas where they are. As a listening Government, we have listened to what the farmers have been saying. We have also listened to what the fishermen have been saying through out this country. That is the reason why the Government or President Rupiah Bwezani Banda has decided to introduce this Motion today in order to meet the aspirations of our people and of this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Madam Speaker, this House has consistently been urging Government to come up with this ministry re-alignment for a long time now. In a report which was adopted by this House, of the Committee on Agriculture and Lands, appointed on 17th January, 2008 which was chaired by none other than Hon. Request Muntanga, our former Party Chairman, in Kalomo District…

Laughter

Mr Mwaanga:… when MMD was formed, this is what the committee stated. Let me quote from page 6 of the report, under recommendations in paragraph 12:

“Your Committee, in view of the foregoing observations, recommend as follows:

(a) that the Government should create a Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries so that adequate attention can be paid to this sub-sector.”

Committees previous to this one had made similar recommendations. It is fitting that as we are about to change our budget cycle, we should begin to look at the spirit of these two ministries to make them two stand alone ministries so that the specific interests of our people in these categories can actually be addressed by the Government.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Muntanga has made a number of useful observations regarding the nomenclatures which have been used in describing some of the portfolio functions. A number of these points are valid and no doubt, Government will take them on board.

Madam Speaker, others have also talked about whether the two ministries will be given the same amount of importance in terms of the allocation of resources. It is obvious the Government’s intention is to ensure that when the next budget is presented, these ministries will be budgeted for separately. It will be up to this House to approve allocations for each one of the ministries, in accordance with their responsibilities.

With this in mind, it is therefore, my hope and prayer that this august House will unanimously support this Motion so that Government can go ahead and implement the recommendations which are in it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, I intend to be very brief. First of all, I fully support the Motion presented by His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice. Indeed, as some of my colleagues have said, we have waited for quite sometime for certain portfolios within the former Ministry of Agriculture to be given adequate importance.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by talking about the fishing industry. This industry in this country historically has been very strong. Where I come from, this has been the leading industry, but in the last few decades, it has been going down because of not receiving adequate attention in terms of legislation and resources.

Madam Speaker, you will find that the fisheries, especially, in the Luapula Province and elsewhere in the country have been depleted due to over fishing and illegal fishing methods. This Government has not done much about the fisheries industry. They are only concentrating on crops and fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, this is a very welcome development. The hon. Minister is very close to me here. We expect the new ministry to concentrate on fish restocking, research in fisheries, and also, legislation. We have to legislate in order to protect the fishing industry. Enforcement of fish bans is no longer in existence. Nothing is being done. I hope that this ministry will seriously look into this. We have to look at new methods of increasing the fish stock in the country.

Madam Speaker, there has been some belief that cattle can only be kept in certain provinces of this country, namely, Southern, Eastern and Western provinces. On the contrary, livestock keeping can be done successfully in most parts of the country. We would like to see this ministry give a lot of support to the traditional cattle-keeping areas of this country, as well as put in more effort to ensure that there is more livestock in all parts of the country. Zambia has the potential. We want to have more goats in all areas of the country. We are, therefore, looking forward to this ministry putting in a lot more effort in that area.

Madam Speaker, even for those colleagues who believe that animals have a right of way when they leave their farms and wander off to the main roads, and get knocked down, resulting in people losing their lives, it is important to understand that if you keep cattle, even if you are a tobacco farmer, make sure you keep them on your farm. Do not come here to interfere with hon. Members and their families when you are driving on those roads.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to support a point that was made by the hon. Member for Chongwe.

Madam Speaker, I think that it is important that the Government gives serious thought to creating a ministry for women.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, I have asked my colleagues in that department, and they have said that they appeal to the goodwill of their colleagues to increase the representation of women in Government and this House.

Madam Speaker, from the debates that we have had and Motions passed in this House, my view is that it is not possible to achieve a lot. If necessary, we may need to legislate for the number of women Members of Parliament in this House.

Hon. UPND Member: That has nothing to with this.

Dr Machungwa: Yes, it has something to do with this. If we create a ministry for gender, and not a department, they should be able to concentrate on their core task which is to increase the representation of women.

Madam Speaker, I fully support the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe. Your honour, the Vice-President, the Government should give consideration to possibly bring another ministry to deal with gender issues. I fully support the Motion and as I said I would be brief, I have done it in a few minutes, unlike my colleague from Kalomo who spoke for hours.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The time management has been appreciated. If it continues, it will be very good.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion on the Floor, and speaking almost at the tail end of the debate, I want to draw your attention to a few things, which I will put differently.

Madam Speaker, since 2002, agriculture has been prioritised. We are aware that the putting together of too many things created the problems that, for lack of a better term, translated into the fact that we were looking for extension services in our rural areas and we did not get them. We were looking for certain portfolios at our district levels, and they were not there. I am aware of the fact that two officers were termed permanent secretaries, one controlling and the other not. This division gives them the opportunity to think through what they need to do with each of their ministries. I thank the Government for streamlining this.

Madam Speaker, the breakdown of the functions is very thorough. Aside from the changes that have been advocated by colleagues that have spoken before me, I think that there are other things that can still need to be done if the will is there on the part of the Government.

Madam Speaker, I hope that places that border Angola, like Lukulu West and the whole western border, will benefit from the same thing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: If that is not dealt with, even though we have a better chance now with the separated ministries that will look at issues of livestock more comprehensively and do the fencing without relying on issues of condom …

Laughter

 Ms Imbwae: …cordon lines.

Madam Speaker, I said cordon lines, not what the hon. Members are saying.

Laughter

Ms Imbwae: Madam Speaker, it is important that as we look at establishing the zones or barriers, there are places where national fencing is more useful than any of the medications that have been used in other places. I know that the ministry will look at this.

Madam Speaker, the indigenous fruits and trees are things that need serious research. You cannot do this alone without working with the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. While I am still on this issue, I would like to indicate that, sometimes, in the joining or splitting of certain ministries, certain things get lost along the line. May the hon. Ministers pay attention to the functions, funding and resources. I am aware that when I had to deal with the issues of tourism, we lost a budget line. You are not likely to lose a budget line because you are starting afresh. All I am saying is that you should watch out so that we do not lose out on certain things falling under the already existing ministry and the new one that is being created. Something is likely to go missing and we do not want this to happen. 

Madam Speaker, the fish bans are old-fashioned. If we did our aqua culture more seriously, we may not need to resort to fish bans. Right now, I am aware that there is a blanket covering of small fish. However, for people who come from where I come from, small fish like, tukeya and mingale, which never grow, can cover these people. If you ban the fishing of these small fishes, it means that the other people in those areas will be deprived of the fish that they always fall on when things are hard. They multiply a bit faster so they are always there.  Of course, your research will prove this.

Madam Speaker, not to take up much of your time, I would like to say that I hope that the very thoroughness with which the functions were separated, will be the same way that His Honour, the Vice-President will look at the issues of gender.

Madam Speaker, allow me to put it differently. This ministry was brought in earlier than the new one being created. We, therefore, expect the same thoroughness in stating what functions fall where so that we do not have a baby ministry and then we have later ministries that are looked at more comprehensively.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, I am profoundly grateful. I know that there is always a dispute between me and Hon. Milupi on which province has a more preponderant number of cattle. 

Madam Speaker, I want to state that I stand to support the Motion brought on the Floor of this House by His Honour, the Vice-President, to facilitate for the creation the Ministry of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion because, as you know, I come from Namwala, which stocks the largest number of indigenous cattle…

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka:…in one district in the Republic of Zambia. I come from Namwala which has something close to 250 kilometres of river line of the Kafue River, meaning that the preponderance of fish, particularly the Kafue Bream, is something that my district which is also my constituency can relate to. Therefore, a ministry like the Ministry of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries defines Namwala. I can relate to that ministry. My people in Namwala can also relate to this ministry. I, therefore, I think that in creating the Ministry of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries, we, as Zambians, are building on the gains of our independence.

Madam Speaker, we are building on the gains of our independence because it is cattle which were sold on that day and gathered at Isamu Lyamoomba in Monze in thousands to be sold by the then United National Independence Party (UNIP) to allow for our founding fathers to travel to Lancaster House in London to meet the Queen. The money raised was for accommodation and air fares. Forty-five years after independence, we are creating the Ministry of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries. It is a milestone on the gains of the independence of our country. Cattle is very important. Therefore, livestock development deserves a ministry.

Madam Speaker, for your own information, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry will talk about the London Metal Exchange so often. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will also talk about the London Stock Exchange Do you know that as Europe was moving from Feudalism to the Industrial Revolution and Capitalism, the creation of that stock exchange in London was not about cattle, metal, cobalt, copper or gold? That stock exchange which appears to define the limits of industrialisation and capitalism was about cattle.

 Mr Milupi: Tell them!

Major Chizhyuka: That is how important those who are in Europe regard cattle.

Madam Speaker, when I passed through gona kuzingwa at the close of the last session…

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka:…I passed through gona kuzingwa, but I also pass through that door…

Major Chizhyuka pointed to the Eastern door of the Chamber.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka:…I travelled to Botswana and South Africa by road. What was on my mind was to see Hon. Muntanga’s report for myself, not as the hon. Member of a Parliamentary Committee, but as hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala. I saw that it is actually true that the Government of Botswana has a cattle development industry that contributes close to 34 per cent of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP). 
In fact, in Botswana, it is true that there is a continuous barbed wire line from Kazungula Border Post all the way up to the border with South Africa – a distance of 1,000 plus kilometres. Those fences are not built by individual farmers, but by the Government of the Republic of Botswana. It is to deal with the issues of what Hon. Muntanga was talking about, regarding disease control. This is a serious Government which is exporting beef to the European Union today. They are able to create 1,000 plus kilometres of barbed wire to control the movement of cattle so that they do not stray into roads.

Madam Speaker, I welcome this ministry. Having said that, I want to say that as far as the creation of the disease-free zones which were announced last time are concerned, I discuss this matter with the hon. Minister of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries - a very able lawyer. I hope you will put aside the law and all those big volumes of books and start thinking like a framer.

 Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Veterinary Services, Livestock and Fisheries has created a livestock disease-free zone  in Lusaka and Central provinces - Mkushi and Serenje inclusive - leaving the provinces which are predominantly cattle-rearing provinces of Eastern, Southern and Western provinces.

Mrs Masebo: And Lusaka!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, there are very indigenous farmers in Central Province who own cattle. That disease-free zone which is being created by the new ministry is going on a tangent because the hon. Ministry knows that, in fact, together with other people, we pushed it through the creation of this ministry to the late President, and may his soul rest in peace.

By putting that disease-free zone in the Central Province, the hon. Minsiter is enabling white farmers….

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka:…and European farmers to start exporting beef to Europe. I am saying European farmers because you will find that these are Europeans. This is the problem because here we call it Citizens Economic Empowerment Programme and start including all sorts of people. They call it Black Empowerment in South Africa. Therefore, I am making it very clear that it is European framers who own thousands and thousands of cattle there, and not indigenous Zambians. Therefore, you are creating a disease-free zone so that when you start exporting tomorrow, it will not be the indigenous Zambians, but the Europeans. Thereafter, you will come on a public platform or public podium and start saying that Zambia is exporting beef to Saudi Arabia and France. Yet, the ones who will be exporting that beef will not be your fellow black people, but the same Europeans from Europe who will be exporting to their colleagues where they came from.

Madam Speaker, it is important that we create disease free zones in the provinces like Western, Southern and Eastern where indigenous cattle rearing people live, because our target is to export beef. The reason for creating these disease free zones is because you, the Government, want to export beef. Do you know that Southern Province alone moves close to 1 million heads of cattle per year?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam, Western Province has a good grazier scheme in place, but I do not understand why the Lozi people are poor. Their grazier scheme is greater than that of Botswana and Namibia, and yet the Lozi people are the poorest today.

Mr Muntanga: Mabenga!

Major Chizhyuka: This is due to misplacement of priorities.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I, therefore, wish to accept the creation of this new ministry. However, in showing acceptance, I wish to advice the hon. Minister that disease free zones must be created in areas where there is a predominance of cattle.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, so much has been said about disease control by hon. Members. I even heard one hon. Member who was debating before me talk about a cordon line.

Mrs Masebo: What?

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, we live in a world where we have international bodies such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and Common Market for East and Southern Africa (COMESA) to which Zambia is a member. However, I do not subscribe to the creation of a cordon line between countries because it is a waste of money.

Madam, I wish to say that as a young officer, I operated for several years in the area where this cordon line is fixed, in the then cracked Zambian Army.

Mr Kambwili: Cracked? Justify!

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: This cordon line served no purpose because our colleagues in our neighbouring country, Angola, across when fighting for the freedom of their country easily came with pliers and cut the wire. They would come in our country with guns. Hence, what could the cordon guard do to protect the wire?

When Hon. Sikatana was Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, we mentioned to him that the way forward for Zambia was by creating good bilateral relations with Angola. For this reason, the ministry needed to involve the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so that livestock disease control at the borders of Zambia and Angola could take place simultaneously.

Madam Speaker, as a Government, I would suggest that you liaise very closely with the European Union (EU) and other organisations and come up with a common disease programme. Once Zambia and Angola share a common disease control programme in place, then there will be no need for a cordon line. Nobody will come at night to cut the barbed wire that would have been installed there.

I am sure that most of you listen to the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) and Cable News Network (CNN) and you have heard that the consumptive rate of beef in Europe is increasing. Consumption is high now, meaning that they will need more meat, such as T-bone and siloon steaks.

Mr Simuusa: And fish!

Major Chizhyuka: Someone else can talk about fish.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: I want to talk about real things.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Address the Chair.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: This is a very welcome ministry and I hope that all hon. Members of Parliament will support His Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, allow me to talk briefly …

Hon. Member: Time!

Major Chizhyuka: seeing that I have a bit of time left.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I wish to talk about one aspect in Hon. Chituwo’s ministry and that is, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). Now that the ministries have been separated, the hon. Minister needs to re-look at the FRA. The food reserve aspect comes from the Bible.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Long before Jesus Christ was born, when Joseph was in Egypt, the King of Egypt had a dream of seven lean years and seven years of plenty. The interpretation was done by Joseph …

Hon. Government Member: We know that story!

Major Chizhyuka: Yes, you know the story, but you do not know where the food reserve came from.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member wants to engage in a conversation with other hon. Members. The purpose of you standing correctly is for you to look at the Chair and only interact through the Chair.

The hon. Member may continue without responding to any heckling.

Major Chizhyuka: It is always very nice to look at the Chair, Madam.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: The point I am driving at is that as far back as 2000 years ago, Egypt created a food reserve that catered for the country for seven years. However, my question to the hon. Minister is: Is it a difficult for the ministry to create a strategic food reserve in Zambia that can stock food in excess for years?

Madam Speaker, the task of the FRA is to be a primary buyer of food for strategic reserve locally, instead of importing genetically modified organisms (GMO) maize from South Africa like it did last year. I believe that this country can do better than Joseph in the Bible and resort to strategic food reserve to feed the whole country. It is possible to do that.

Alternatively, instead of the FRA to be a buyer of maize, you can recreate the National Agricultural Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) or give it whatever name you want. This board will be responsible for crop marketing of our staple food. The immediate reaction of the capital market in the country is that the banks are going to come on board and will fund the small-scale farmers to become emerging commercial farmers. Why are the banks going to fund so willingly? This is because the banks know that they will recover their moneys through the system of the NAMBOARD, if created. This is how countries are run and this is how economies are managed. If you do not do this, we shall continue to have a lope-sided growth of the agricultural sector.

Madam Speaker, as this Government separates these two ministries, it must first deal with the FRA and crop marketing. This is a system that has worked in many countries and, I think, it can work in Zambia if we look into that direction.

Madam Speaker, time has come to look for nationalists …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … of our country. This is because nationalists are interested in the way of being of the poorest of the poor in the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I am told that I have less than a minute to debate. I can leave the 45 seconds that is remaining for somebody else to speak.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Bangweulu, I hope you will not also want to leave 50 seconds for the next person.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important Motion. I would like to welcome this timely development.

This development is timely, especially on the part of some of us who come from the lakes like Lake Bangweulu.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We have been looking forward to the creation of this ministry so that we can reclaim our status in our society.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: In the past, our forefathers, including my father were fishermen.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: They used to send us to school up to university level through the same activity. However, down the line, fishing was over shadowed by other activities that I would not like to mention. I would like to commend the Government of the day and the Head of State for demonstrating to us that he is a complex thinker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Speaker, such initiatives only come from complex thinkers and we commend him highly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: He has responded to our aspirations and demands and we only hope that the hon. Minister responsible for this ministry will be a complex thinker as well and not a person merely seeking a job. We want him, as my colleague has ably put it, starting from this evening after we adjourn, to buy boots and also be in a position to know the requirements of a fisherman. Canoes, boats and fishing nets must be made available as quickly as possible in our area. Do not even smile.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! This is not about the hon. Minister, but about the ministry and the hon. Member may speak through the Chair.

Mr Kasongo: I am most obliged, Madam Speaker. We are giving timely advice to the new hon. Minister responsible for this activity that has demonstrated to the Zambians that His Excellency the President, is a complex thinker. We do not want to see a hon. Minister who is going to be a liability and be found wanting, but one who is going to deliver within the shortest possible time. There should be no question of saying, “I am still re-organising the ministry.” You have been given a mandate starting from today to re-organise the ministry and remain focused so that you deliver. We do not want to see a situation where you will come back to us and say, “There is nothing that I have done.” If we cannot find banana boats, nets and so on, we are going to hammer you and hammer you hard.

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! What is that hammering? Will the hon. Member interpret the word “hammering.”

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Madam Speaker, the word “hammering” is simply a language which he is going to understand so that he does not betray the confidence of the Head of State. That is what I meant. He should be able to support the Head of State through and through because this message has been well received by the people of Bangweulu Constituency, whom I represent, and the entire Luapula Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Speaker, that confidence that His Excellency the President has shown should not be deterred by an individual. That is why I stood to encourage the hon. Minister to also stand up and be counted. Even his support staff up to the level of Permanent Secretary must be given matching orders to make sure that His Excellency the President is able to deliver as quickly as possible. That is what he should do.

Madam Speaker, the importance of this ministry is that it has not only been received by the people of Bangweulu Constituency, but even the easterners, unfortunately have received the same message with joy. To demonstrate what I am saying, I would like to refer to the farmers’ gazette which has been made available to all hon. Members. On page 50, there is my cousin who is cycling to the market carrying a goat on his back.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: In other words, the creation of this ministry is timely and a lot of people are excited about it. As I said and in line with your advice, I would like to end by saying that this is a welcome development and we praise the Head of State and the Government of the day. We are looking forward to the implementation of the activities within the shortest possible time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Speaker, I just want to thank all hon. Members for the overwhelming support. I hope we will be working like this with hon. Members of the pact and other hon. Members.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENT OF MR BURTON MUGALA AS COMMISSIONER OF THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION AND MRS MINERVA KALWA TEMBO AS COMMISSIONER OF THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION OF ZAMBIA

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the select committee appointed to scrutinise the appointment of Mr Burton Mugala to serve as Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission and Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia laid on the Table of the House on 12th August, 2009.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, I second the Motion.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that after the report was tabled, the appointing authority withdrew the nomination of Mr Burton Mugala as Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission. In this regard, I beg the indulgence of the House to only consider the nomination of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo for appointment as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the appointment of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo as Commissioner of the ECZ is made pursuant to the provisions of Section 4 of the Electoral Commission Act which states that:

 “4(2) The Commission shall consist of the following full time members:
(i) Chairperson; and 
(ii) Not more than four other members.

“The members shall be appointed by the President, subject to ratification by the National Assembly.”

Madam Speaker, your Committee, in scrutinising the appointment of Mrs Tembo, took into account the requirements of integrity and non-partisanship for one to serve as Commissioner on the Electoral Commission. The ECZ is an important organ that ensures the growth and development of democracy in the country through free and fair elections. Therefore, it was important to carryout detailed scrutiny of the nominee to ensure that a capable citizen was appointed.

Madam Speaker, I wish to report to you that state security agencies, which included the Zambia Police Force, Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) informed your Committee that a search of their records had revealed that there were no adverse reports against the nominee in relation to criminal activities, drug trafficking, money laundering, drug abuse and corrupt practices. The state security agencies also confirmed to your Committee that the nominee was a Zambian citizen and would not pose a security risk to the nation if appointed to serve in this sensitive position for which she was being considered.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also interacted with some professional bodies and stakeholder institutions during their deliberations. These included the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and Transparency International Zambia (TIZ).

Madam Speaker, a contentious issue arose with regard to Mrs Tembo’s certificate in her Master of Education qualifications. It was observed that the nominee had two Masters Degree Certificates signed by two different Vice-Chancellors. However, after probing the matter further, it was found out that both were genuine. The nominee explained that the first certificate was defaced and withdrawn.

Hon. Opposition Members: Iye!

Mrs Masebo: Interaction with the stakeholder institution and the nominee herself revealed that Mrs Tembo did genuinely obtain her Master of Education Degree from the University of Zambia (UNZA). Her certificate was genuine and so was her dissertation for the Master of Education. Your Committee, therefore, resolved to proceed to make a recommendation on the suitability of the nominee Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo.

Madam Speaker, your Committee, after thorough evaluation of the evidence presented to them by the witnesses and the appointing authority and their subsequent interview with the nominee, found Mrs Tembo suitably qualified to be ratified for appointment as commissioner on the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). Your Committee observe that the nominee’s profession and occupation has exposed her to a wide variety of experiences which will enable her to effectively handle the demands of the job. The nominee also has personal attributes which have instilled confidence in your Committee that she will be able to perform her duty with diligence and commitment.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered during the deliberations. Your Committee wish to place on record their gratitude to you, Madam Speaker, for allowing them to serve on this very important Select Committee. Your Committee also thank the state security and investigative agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholder institutions as well as the nominee herself for the oral and written submissions which assisted your Committee in their work.

I thank you, Madam Speaker, and wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support this Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Chongo: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate on the appointment of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo. Let me begin by congratulating the mover of the Motion for the able manner in which she has addressed the pertinent issues in your Committee’s report.

Madam Speaker, I am also aware that hon. Members of Parliament have had an opportunity to read your Committee’s report. Therefore, allow me to highlight only a few other issues of concern.

In our interaction with various witnesses, your Committee was made aware of the limited time allocated to the witnesses in which to make a research on a particular nominee. Your Committee request that adequate time be allocated for this very important exercise.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, your Committee noted, in the interaction with UNZA, that the issue of record keeping and adherence to set regulations in the obtaining of important documents such as academic certificates had been neglected. Your Committee recommend that highly placed institutions such as UNZA should strive to ensure that their records are up-to-date, objectively verified and kept safely. The university should ensure that strict regulations are set and adhered to by all in the obtaining of academic certificates. This will ensure that the respect and integrity of the university is maintained and relied upon in the verification of academic qualifications.

Finally, Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the Chairperson and the rest of the members of your Committee for the unity of purpose in considering the presidential appointment of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo as Commissioner of the ECZ.

Madam Speaker, I end by urging this august House to support the Motion on the Floor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to debate on Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo’s appointment and I intend to be very brief again.

First of all, I wish to support …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: … the nomination of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo to serve as Commissioner at the ECZ. This is a lady I have known for quite some time.

Mr Kambwili: Ah!

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: When I was the Head of Psychology at UNZA, she was head of counselling and she performed very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: You may wish to know that the Department of Psychology had to give some assistance to the Department of Counselling because counselling, especially psycho-socio counselling, had to be done or supported by the department. Her work was excellent and she showed a lot of integrity and no bias in her work. In addition, she was a very pleasant person to work with.

Madam, I have seen in the report that some questions were raised about her certificates, because one was signed by one Vice-Chancellor and the other was signed by another Vice-Chancellor. However, I can confirm that she studied at UNZA. First of all, she did a Certificate in Education after she had been teaching already. She later went on to study at UNZA. When I came back with my PhD and headed the Department of Psychology, she was still working there. In my view, since they were able to find her thesis in the special collections, they should put to rest the doubts about her qualifications. Therefore, I fully support this appointment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1805 hours until 1830 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me state that I do not support the ratification of this appointment. Zambia, 45 years after independence, should strive to have an independent electoral commission in which the President has no hand.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, it is retrogressive that in the midst of people complaining that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is not fair on all political parties, the President continues nominating people to the commission and ratified by Parliament. This is an anomaly and we must change the system. We are just two year away from the general elections and the appointing authority will be one of the candidates and then we allow that situation to continue. I cannot support that anomaly and it has to come to an end.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I feel the ECZ must be represented by all stakeholders including parties and the churches.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, nominations for anybody to be ratified by Parliament must be done by individual political parties, churches, Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and not the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I would to emphasise that this is retrogressive. Furthermore, people have been complaining about an official of the ECZ, whom we know, and nothing has been done because he was nominated by the President and therefore, only the President has the power to remove this person from the commission.

Madam Speaker, I have nothing against the nominee as an individual but I have everything against the system or process of nominating people to the ECZ.

Madam, with these few words, I wish to state that I do not support the ratification of this nominee. I thank you.

 Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving this rare opportunity to add my voice to this very important motion. From the onset, I would like to state that I do not subscribe to this ratification.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: This country has had a lot of problems surrounding elections and the reasons are obvious to all of us. Democracy, which we purport to espouse so much, depends on how much we enhance this democracy we sing about.

Madam Speaker, before I continue, I would like to say I will be very brief and would like to take the words of the last speaker as my own. I have no personal vendetta against the candidate. She is an innocent person but I think it is high time that instruments of Government took root in matters of governance. The electoral system is what determines good governance. If the electoral system is flawed, then we are going to have fraud elections. The person that will aspire for that high office must be above board.

Madam Speaker, I am at pains to find that the candidate under discussion this evening is a person that is very forgetful or deceitful. There is no way that a person can forget the details of his or her qualifications only to be justified by third or fourth opinions. It is not acceptable for a high position, like that of a commissioner, to have a person whose qualifications are very doubtful. How do we guarantee that this person qualifies as she has alluded to her qualifications? If she did not go astray over that one issue of a certificate, we would not have known her true character. She is not a trustworthy person and therefore, cannot be trusted to hold office of that magnitude …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda: Two years from now we will be going to the polls. We cannot afford to put another person in that electoral office as a commissioner when this is only going to add to the woes in our electoral system.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I refute and refuse the ratification of this candidate. I thank you.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, winding up the debate on this very important motion, I would like to thank all those that have contributed in support and even those that have contributed with reservations. However, I would like to just say to the hon. Members here that the Committee did go in such detail to ensure that all the issues that they are raising, those that concerns, were adequately dealt with and we were convinced beyond doubt that indeed this person has the necessary qualifications, is non-partisan …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … gender balances …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mrs Masebo: … and that indeed, she would perform to our expectation.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mrs Masebo: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! There was time debate and the Chair was almost soliciting people to speak.

Question that this House does adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo to serve as commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia respectively, put and the House voted.

Ayes: (78)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr A. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr R. C. Banda
Mr Chanda
Ms Changwe
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chishya
Dr Chituwo
Mr Chongo
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Ms Kapwepwe
Mr Kasongo
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Mr Liato
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Mabenga
Mr Machila
Dr Machungwa
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Ms Masebo
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr L. J. Mulenga
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Munaile
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Musosha
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mwaanga
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Mr B. Y. Mwila
Mrs Nalumango
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Nkhata
Mr Nyirenda
Mr D. B. Phiri
Mr Professor F. Phiri
Mrs Sampa-Bredt
Mr Shawa
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mrs Sinyangwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr F. R. Tembo
Ms V. Tembo
Mr Zulu

Noes: (30)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr Beene
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chisala
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chota
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kasoko
Dr. Katema
Mr Katuka
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Ms Mwape
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mrs J. C. Mumbi-Phiri
Mr Muntanga
Mrs R. M. Musokotwane
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Sejani
Mr Simuusa

Abstentions - (0)

Question accordingly agreed to and the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mrs Minerva Kalwa Tembo passed.

__________

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

The Non-Governmental Organisations (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 – (Composition of board)

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6 on page 7, in lines 36 to 38 by the deletion of sub-clause (6) and the substitution therefor of the following new sub-clause:

(6) the Board may invite any person whose experience is in its opinion desirable to attend and to participate in the deliberations of a meeting of the Board but such person shall have no vote.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 14 – (Validity of certificate)

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 14 on page 10, in line 31 by the deletion of the word ‘three’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘five’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 15 and 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 17 – (Suspension and cancellation of certificate).

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 17 on page 12, in line 4 by the deletion immediately after the word ‘organisation’ of the substitution words ‘or any of its officers’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 17, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SCHEDULE 

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in the Schedule:

(a) on page 19, in line 4 to 10 by the deletion of paragraph 1.

(b) on page 19 and 21 by the renumbering of paragraphs 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 as paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 respectively.

Amendment agreed to. Schedule amended accordingly.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Interruptions

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in the Schedule on Pages 19 and 21 by the renumbering of paragraphs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 as paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, respectively.  

Amendment agreed to. Schedule further amended accordingly.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Non-Governmental Organisation Bill, 2009

Report Stage on Friday, 14th August, 2009.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Public-Private Partnership Bill, 2009

________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

________

The House adjourned at 1859 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 14th August, 2009.