DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 2nd July, 2010 

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I rise to give some idea of the Business the House will consider next week.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, on Wednesday 7th July, 2010, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. After that, there will be presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. This will be followed by Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Report of the Committee on Agriculture and Lands.

On Thursday, 8th July, 2010, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the following reports:

(i)    Committee on Government Assurances; and
 
(ii)    Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour.

On Friday, 9th July, 2010, the Business of the House will commence with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. After that, there will be presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs.

Then the House will consider any other Business that may have been presented before it earlier in the week.

I thank you, Sir.

_______

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, once again, my question is on football. The performance of our national team is full of ups and downs, especially when we have a local coach. We just miss the ─ I think its called charm. I would like to know whether His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is for a local or foreign coach. I am for a foreign coach …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: … because …

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I am aware that serious efforts are being made to engage a foreign coach. I think the hon. Member of Parliament will be pleased to know that the matter is under very serious consideration. A foreign coach is being considered and an announcement will be made in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to give us a clear position on donors bearing in mind the outbursts that he has been linked to. I would like to find out what our stand is because currently we are faced with an outbreak of measles and the Ministry of Health is in need of donor funding.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the relationship between the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government and co-operating partners is very warm.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the co-operating partners continue to give us massive financial and technical support. That is the kind of relationship which is going to continue. In fact, in today’s papers, there is an official announcement from State House that co-operating partners have pledged to continue assisting Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, of course, the recent pronouncements on donors relate to matters of diplomatic etiquette. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: That is whether our relationship with donors and the threats to withdraw aid should be discussed in the press or, according to the Geneva Convention, through the established diplomatic process. That is what we, and the President, were talking about. At the moment, there is a common understanding between the co-operating partners and ourselves that we should observe diplomatic etiquette …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … when we are dealing with the relationship between Zambia and its co-operating partners. We shall continue to enjoy donor support because we are committed to the prudent management of public resources.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is why the donor community is still giving us a lot of support. We are fighting corruption and are dedicated …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … to the tenets of democracy. We shall continue with good governance programmes and co-operating partners shall continue to give us aid.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, there are some police officers who were paid K150,000 while others were paid K7 million as their June salaries. What is the Government going to do for the officers who were paid K150,000 because of the anomalies in the payroll so that they can survive up to the month end?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that situation has already been explained by Cabinet Office. Some administrative problems were encountered when preparing the payroll. That situation is regretted and serious measures are being taken to rectify the anomalies so that civil servants can get their correct pay in time. All in all, that matter is being looked into.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, the buying of maize kicked off in good time. The price was accepted by farmers, although grudgingly, but in most of the maize producing provinces, with a typical example of the Southern Province and in Pemba and Choma districts in particular, the structures for the procurement of maize from the local farmers is of concern. I would like to find out when the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) will start buying maize from local farmers and whether, in fact, it will be cash payment as opposed to other modes of payment. It is really causing …

Mr Speaker: Order! Look at the clock.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, from what I know about the purchase of maize, this year, we have had an unprecedented bumper harvest because of hard work by our farmers and the good policies of the MMD Government.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore, it is our intention, through the FRA, to buy as much maize as possible. Of course, the drawback has been the moisture content. As you know, this is what has slowed down the purchase of maize. The hon. Member also asked about the procurement structures and I have taken note of his observation. The FRA is working day and night to try and streamline the issue of marketing. I also wish to take this opportunity to inform the nation that the FRA has made massive sheds for the storage of maize throughout the country. We have constructed a lot of sheds, including the one I was inspecting in Serenje. It is a very big shed that has just been constructed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is what we are doing throughout the country so that we can create reserves of maize for the nation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I want to commend the Government’s efforts in fighting corruption. In the same vein, I want to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice why Section 37 of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) Act, which deals with abuse of office, has been scrapped off from the Act in the revised ACC Act which is coming to Parliament.

Mr Speaker: Will His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice remember what that Section talks about?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I do not know where the hon. Member of Parliament got that information from, but if he has access to classified material, that is a very serious criminal offence.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I must warn him against accessing confidential information. Let me also say that at the stage the Bill comes to Parliament, hon. Members of Parliament will have access to its contents. I can confirm that that we are revising the law on the fight against corruption. We are taking into account our past experiences, such as, how certain offences have been prosecuted.  We are reforming the law. Maybe, the offence the hon. Member is talking about has been classified in another form. The hon. Member should not pre-judge us before he even sees the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, in 2005 during the voter registration exercise, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) operationalised all the polling stations. However, this year, very few polling stations have been picked in all the constituencies. What has caused this because voter registration …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, voter registration is a continuous exercise and we will cover all polling stations. There will be no polling station which will be left out. We have just started the exercise. So, the hon. Member for Parliament should not panic.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Isoka West?

Mr Sichamba: Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the people of Luano Valley in Mkushi South Constituency value and appreciate this Government, but they would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when the officers issuing national registration cards  are going to be in Luano Valley, namely in Chibika, Liteta, Chembe, Tumbwe and Mbosha. These officers were last there in 1996.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the issuance of national registration cards is a permanent exercise. Those who need national registration cards can go to established offices. However, when required, mobile registration shall be considered. I have taken note of what the hon. Member has said.

I thank you, Sir.

    Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, is the Constitution-making process on course since there is no funding for the National Constitutional Conference (NCC)?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the Constitution-making process is on course and, of course, we are looking for funding for the exercise. As soon as the money is available, the process will be funded. However, we need to take into account the competing needs of the nation. Of course, we have engaged the NCC and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in looking at this particular matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when the Zambian Government is going to set up an inquest to find out what really caused the death of our student in Russia …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mrs Phiri: We all know that we only had two forensic pathologists in Zambia, Dr Garg, who has retired, and Dr Banda who has since died. What are the qualifications of the doctor who accompanied the officials from the Ministry of Education to Russia?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, a ministerial statement was issued on that matter. We are still looking into this matter with the Russian Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, recently, we heard, I think that was two days ago, that the salaries for the Public Service were delayed. Can His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice enlighten the nation on what has caused the hitch in paying public servants on time and what action is being taken because it seems this is frustrating the public servants.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Member came late or he was not listening to my response. This is an administrative problem which is being addressed very seriously and I mentioned the fact that the delay in salaries is being looked into earlier on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice why the Government has failed to release money to work on the washed away bridges in rural constituencies.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I greatly appreciate that question. Even my constituency is affected. However, we are sourcing for funds from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to address the problem of washed away bridges, which we have not attended to, in most of our constituencies. Very soon, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will release some money so that the bridges are attended to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice the position of the Government over mining companies which have stopped paying rates to councils. At the moment, councils, for instance, Chililabombwe and Kalulushi, are failing to provide social services to the community and, very soon, workers will also not be paid.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, indeed, mining companies, not only as part of social corporate responsibility, but also under the Rating Act, should pay rates. Of course, where there are differences between the rate payers and the councils, they must negotiate and come to an amicable understanding. I know that in some cases, some of the rate bills have been the subject of contention between the rate payers and the councils.

Mr Speaker, let me also take this opportunity to advise some of the Opposition controlled councils …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … to use money prudently for service delivery, especially in towns such as Chililabombwe and Kalulushi. We should not abuse these funds for travels abroad as has been the case in the past. We should use this money for service delivery. Let us assist the Central Government in patching up roads and collecting garbage because that is what that money is intended for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice why the repatriation of the displaced Lenshina followers has failed to take place since 2007, and yet the programme has been in the budget for the past three years through the DMMU. What is the progress now?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I am aware that the matter was being looked into and I have taken note of your representation. We will deal with these long outstanding matters once and for all.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, the 7.8 per cent inflation rate for Zambia is very good.

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: How is this affecting the Zambian financial market?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, as a result of this positive inflation rate, the lowest ever, we will see a positive impact on the economy as there will be more money to lend people resulting in interest rates going down.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, it is a nightmare to drive on the 84 kilometre stretch on the Lundazi/Chipata Road. I would like to be advised, since a loan has been procured from the South African Development Bank, when works on this stretch will commence.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is very passionate about that particular road. If money has been acquired for the works to begin, we will have to go through the necessary tender processes and, as soon as we accomplish that, a contractor will be picked to start working on the road. Therefore, as soon as possible, work will start.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when this Government will start sharing the mineral royalty tax with the communities where this money is being realised.

The Vice-President and Justice: Mr Speaker, national revenue goes into the National Treasury and then, of course, consideration is given to the communities where the minerals are mined. The laws for that are in place, but I must also remind the hon. Member that there are places in Zambia where there are no minerals, but are also entitled to share in the national revenues. Therefore, revenues are shared according to the law and they come to this House when we make the National Budget so that we share these resources equitably.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice when this Government intends to bring back the money it diverted to, I think, the Kafue National Park in 2007, which was meant for roads and bridges in Lukashya Constituency, from the Nordic countries.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that alleged diversion of funds that the hon. Member is talking about, but if she can give me more details, we shall investigate the matter.

I thank you, Sir.

   Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, let me start by thanking the Vice-President and Minister of Justice for responding so favourably to the wish of Kankoyo Housing Stocks.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Your Honour, recently, you were in Mufulira and saw the state of the Mufulira/Sabina and Mufulira/Ndola roads. When is the money going to be available to work on this road?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, when I went to Mufulira, touring the country in trying to promote the policies of this Government, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … I was informed about the state of the two roads which …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … are economic roads, and we shall look into them as quickly as possible because we know that the MMD Government enjoys tremendous support in Mufulira. We are going to rise to the occasion and address the concerns of our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, the voter registration exercise is a noble exercise over which I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government is going to seriously consider removing the K22,000 to be paid by those who have lost their voter’s cards because that is affecting the registration exercise.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I need to investigate that. I cannot confirm that people are being asked to pay K22,000.00, but if that is the case, of course, it must be backed by some regulation or law. However, I will look into that and find out what the exact position is.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice what the Government is doing about the exchange rate between the dollar to the Zambian kwacha which has gone up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, this is a liberalised economy and the exchange rate of the kwacha against the dollar is bound to fluctuate. For your information, those who are involved in the export of items are very happy with the prevailing exchange rate ...

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: ... because it will promote exports for those who understand economics. It is a double-edged sword. Some people are happy about the exchange rate at that level.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the police officers who retired in 2009 have not been paid their dues to date, hence raising a lot of issues. When are they going to be paid their dues and repatriation, especially those on the Copperbelt? 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I do not know what the hon. Member is talking about. If it is payments from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), we budget for that money every year. There is a queue, of course, of retired officers who have to be paid from the budget, but if it is those police officers who were holding on to houses, the Government found some money and most of them were recently repatriated. So, I am surprised that the group the hon. Member has talked about is still occupying Government houses. However, the repatriation of police officers is a continuous exercise.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, some retired Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) and council workers who belong to the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund get as low as K500,000 per year. When is the Government going to review the Local Government Act relating to this fund in order to give them decent monthly benefits instead of them being annual? 

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I can only take note of that. What the hon. Member has raised is a matter which we can possibly review through the line ministry involved by bringing legislation here or changing the regulations which relate to such benefits.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the Indeni Petroleum Refinery installation plant always undergoes periodic maintenance. When will this happen, this year, and which company is being contracted to refurbish the tanks at the company?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I think I need to look into that and get some information on it. I do not have a ready answer.

Thank you, Sir.

_____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ZAMBIA PRINTING COMPANY EMPLOYEES

468. Mr Munaile (Malole) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services:

(a)    when employees at the Zambia Printing Company had last been awarded a salary increment;

(b)    how much the lowest paid employee received; and

(c)    which union represented the employees at (a) for wage negotiations.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Ms Cifire): Mr Speaker, the last salary increment was awarded on 1st April, 2002. The lowest paid employee receives K470,000. Lastly, the union, which represents the employees at the Zambia Printing Company, is the Zambia Union of Journalists (ZUJ).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile: Mr Speaker, why have the employees at the Zambia Printing Company been neglected by this Government because 2002 is a long time ago and the K470,000.00 paid to an employee is a mockery?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, I think it is time we started relating profitability to the ability to pay workers and this is what has happened in the case of the Zambia Printing Company. If there are no finances as a result of production problems, it means that the company may not have the money to pay its workers. Therefore, as regards the availability of funds, they are not available for the company to be able to make increments in salaries.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the law provides that collective agreements are reviewed every year, and it is now eight years and the agreement has not been reviewed. What is the Government doing to ensure that this company enters into a new agreement with its workers?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, as I have already indicated, it is an issue of what the company is able to afford. If the company is going to make any revisions to the salaries, they are dependent on the finances that the company has. The negotiations at the Zambia Printing Company are a two-way process. There are the representatives of the union and the company. Having been in the union, I am sure you know that it has powers to get into negotiations when it wants. So, who has failed the other?

I thank you, Sir.

                                                         NURSES’ ESTABLISHMENT 

469. Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    what the total establishment for nurses countrywide was; and

(b)    of the total establishment, how many positions were actually filled.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the total approved establishment for nurses countrywide is 22,332. Out of this total figure, there are 16,732 nurses and 5,600 midwives. 

Mr Speaker, of the 22,332 positions, 10,589 are funded of which 10,266 positions are filled leaving a balance of 323 vacant. The recruitment and replacement of the vacant 323 positions is ongoing. 

Mr Speaker, the break down of the filled positions is as follows:

    Position            Number Filled

 Nurses             7,710
 
 Midwives     2,556

I thank you, Sir. 

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, we have a lot of problems due to the lack of nurses in our constituencies. Can the hon. Minister be specific on when the vacant positions will be filled?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the positions will be filled when personnel to fill them is available. At the moment, there are no nurses who are roaming the streets. We have employed all the nurses available in the country. We recruit nurses immediately they graduate from colleges and we will do the same for those who will graduate this year. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to be very clear on this matter. He said that only 323 positions remain to be filled. The last time he gave a report, he said that the national establishment was only filled to around fifty per cent for nurses. Is he saying that he has filled 10,000 positions between then and now through whatever measures he has taken?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member wants to find out the difference between 22,000 of the establishment and the 10,000 of the funded positions. We are saying that so far, we have 10,500 funded positions. We have 323 funded vacant positions. We still have 10,000 plus to engage in order to fill the establishment. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, out of this shortfall, I am sure some of these positions are housewives. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …

Hon. Member: Midwives.

Mrs Phiri: I meant midwives. I would like to find out when the ministry will consider paying traditional birth attendants in order for them to attend to expectant mothers as we await trained personnel.

Mr Simbao: The policy of the MMD Government is to ensure that every delivery takes place in a health facility. That is the position we would like to attain. At the moment, we are looking at a situation where we can have mothers’ shelters at all our health facilities so that all expectant mothers can go to health facilities a week or two before the due date. 

Sir, while we appreciate the traditional birth attendants, we would like to encourage all our mothers to deliver at health facilities where they can get help quickly in case of complications.

That is how we look at this matter. Instead of paying traditional birth attendants, we encourage all women to deliver at health facilities.

I thank you, Sir.

 Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, a lot of nurses have left the country for greener pastures. I would like to find out whether the ministry has put in place measures to avert this trend and whether the Government has intentions to compel countries hosting Zambian nurses to pay something to the Zambian Government. 

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I think we are still living in a closed box. Our friends encourage their nationals to go out and send the money they earn back to their home countries. There are some countries that are living only on such funds. I am even challenged, particularly by Ethiopia. Why are we crying about the doctors and nurses going to work out of the country? We must produce a lot of these professionals and allow them to go instead of holding on to them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: What we need is to encourage our people to go and work outside the country and get experience.  I know most of the people working abroad want to come back. Most of them have indicated their readiness to come back. When they do, they will come and assist this country.

I, therefore, think we should not continue to question our brothers and sisters who are capable of working outside the country. Let us, instead, encourage them to go.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health the position of the Government with regard to cleaners attending to patients in rural health centres, and yet he announced, on the Floor of the House, in 2009, that the Government was going to recruit health personnel. 

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, we have decided to train community health workers to man the rural health posts. We shall give them six months training so that they are able to man the rural health centres.

Mr Speaker, let me inform the House that a lot of countries have gone this way. For example, Brazil, which has a total population of 200 million people, has its rural areas serviced by people who are less trained than nurses. This training is for about six to nine months. We are the only ones who insist on sending nurses to rural areas.

I have spoken in this House before, that the training that we give to nurses is for them to work in hospitals. The clinics that they are sent to require lesser training than the one which they get. Other countries have decided that other types of personnel must man rural areas. That is the direction we have also decided to take.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, is it possible for the Government to persuade the training colleges for nurses to double their enrollment figures so that this good policy we are talking about to have women deliver in hospitals is realised?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the complimentary question. We encourage all training colleges to introduce parallel courses. In case the hon. Members of Parliament did not know, the Ridgeway Campus is running a parallel course for doctors. That way, one can become a doctor without going through the normal process that was there before, except that one has to pay from one’s own pocket. We have done the same with all our training facilities. A number of them are running parallel courses at, for example, Ndola Central Hospital and Chainama Hills Hospital. We have also asked other colleges to do the same so that we can quickly increase the number of trained personnel in the country.

I thank you, Sir.  

KEEZWA POLICE POST 

470. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Home Affairs why Keezwa Police Post in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency was not operational.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Keezwa Police Post in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency is not operational because there has never been a police post there. In 2007, Mumbwa Police Station started sending officers on patrol to curb the crime of stock theft. Officers on patrol were being accommodated in one of the houses at Keezwa Basic School. This house is now occupied by one member of staff for the school.

At the time the patrols to the area began, the community embarked on a project to construct a structure for a police post. The structure went up to the roof level, but the project stalled three years ago. The community is now considering completing the project with the help of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Apart from constructing the police post, there will be a need for the community to build houses for police officers so that officers could be transferred there. At the moment, cases of crime in Keezwa are reported to Nangoma Police Post. 

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, now that there is a new hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I would like to find out whether there are any plans to construct a police post considering that there is a need for one at Keezwa.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member for Gwembe has already stated, now that there is a new hon. Minister, …

Laugher

Mr Lungu: … I think that he needs to be given time to study that issue.

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Therefore, we will look at it at an appropriate time.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND DEBT

471. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    what Zambia’s current debt with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) was; and 

(b)    how much the Government had paid towards servicing the debt to the IMF from 2006 to date.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Zambia’s current debt with the IMF as at 31st March, 2010 is Special Drawing Rights SDR219.3 million which is equivalent to US$333 million. 

Mr Speaker, Zambia’s debt service payments to the IMF from 2006 to date amounts to SDR1.2 million which is equivalent to US$1.99 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the road network in this country is in a deplorable state, but the Ministry of Works and Supply has not constructed an embankment to link Chilubi mainland to Chilubi Island. May I know how soon the Government of the Republic of Zambia intends to open negotiations with the IMF for a fresh loan.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, the only problem is that the linkage of that question to the IMF loan is out of place. However, I would like to state that, for the benefit of the hon. Member, the IMF is extremely happy with the performance of this Government as emphasised by the recent visit of the IMF President. This Government has continued to access loans from the IMF and we will ensure that the loans acquired are used in the areas of need.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I recall that in 2008 and 2009, the Government embarked on a programme to reduce debt. Unfortunately, the debt continues to increase. Could the hon. Deputy Minister explain what the Government is doing to ensure that the debt is reduced.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, this Government ensures that there is prudent management of debt so that we do not ever, again, get into a debt trap. I would like to confirm to you, Mr Speaker, that we are not in a debt trap.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, last year, during the financial crises, the IMF had a special facility. It seems that Zambia got some money out of that facility and that is why our reserves went up to nearly US$2 billion. May I know if the money we got from the IMF, last year, is not a loan and that is why it is not included in the US$333 million debt.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, that is a new question and I think …

Interruptions

Mr D. Phiri: … we need to conduct some research. I promise that we will come back to this House to give an answer to that question.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Deputy Minister assure the nation that the overall debt to the IMF and other international communities is sustainable and we are not going backwards.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, we have a framework in place within which we ensure that the debt that we contract is sustainable. The current position is that the debt is sustainable.

I thank you, Sir.

EXPORTED COPPER ORE IN 2008 AND 2009

472. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a)    how many tonnes of copper ore were exported by mining companies in 2008 and 2009; 

(b)    how much money was raised from the export of the copper; and

(c)    how much the Government collected in taxes from the exports.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Nkhata): Mr Speaker, according to the records in my ministry, no copper ore was exported in 2008. This was largely due to the global economic crisis which led to a slump in metal prices. As a result, it became uneconomical for mining companies to export ore. However, according to the records in my ministry, 7,985 tonnes of copper ore was exported in 2009.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that, currently, the country has surplus ore treatment facilities. As a result of this, very few mining companies, if any, would want to export copper ore as opposed to copper concentrates or, indeed, finished copper as it would be highly uneconomical

Sir, no revenue was collected from copper ore exports in 2008 as no ore was exported during that year. However, a total revenue of K169,780,616 was collected from the export of copper ore and concentrates in 2009 as captured by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA)  as follows:

     Year                 Revenue Collected (K)

2008    0

2009    169,780,616

Sir, according to the ZRA, copper ore and concentrates are classified under one code and are not segregated. Therefore, the revenue collected in 2009 is an aggregated sum of exports of copper ore and concentrates during the year. 

The House may wish to know that in 2008, revenue of K268,685,674 was collected from exports of copper concentrates.

Mr Speaker, no taxes were collected from exports of copper ore in 2008 as no ore was exported during this year. However, a total of K629,026,260,207, as captured by the ZRA, was collected from the exports of copper concentrates and finished copper in 2009 and is as follows:

    Year    Mineral Royalty    Company Tax    Total

2008    0        0        0            

2009    K234,359,478,995     K394,666,781,212     K629,026,260,207

Total    K234,359,478,995    K394,666,781,212    K626,026,260,207    

Sir, the House may wish to know that a total of K617,873,996,824 was collected in 2008 in taxes on copper concentrates and finished copper.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, I would like to know how much royalties the Government has been giving back to the community where this copper is mined. 

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member listened attentively during the Vice-President’s Question Time, the Vice-President talked about that subject. Basically, what is important is to realise that the social services that this Government provides in these communities are funded by the taxes that are collected.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, the IMF team that came to our country recently stated that, as a country, we are under collecting taxes from the mining sector, especially with regard to the ore concentrates and finished copper due to inadequacy in monitoring and other systems and the hon. Minister admitted to this fact. I would like to know what measures have been put in place to improve tax collection and whether the tax figures announced have taken those measures into consideration.
 
Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this Government has been very proactive with this matter. This is why the ZRA, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, has engaged the Norwegians to see how we can improve on tax collection. We have taken a very active stance on this matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development what crime the people in the mining communities have committed to be denied development. Can he elaborate what type of services the mining communities have received as a way of ploughing back into these communities what has been realised in terms of the taxes from the mining being done in these areas.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member knows fully well that the literacy levels in the mining communities are much lower than those in other provinces such as the North-Western and Eastern provinces. The Government is providing various services to these communities to improve the literacy levels. Over and above that, we have health services and also infrastructure that is put up.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. Working backwards from his figures, it seems the mining companies had turnovers in trillions of Kwacha. I would like to know if that money from the sales of copper was banked in the Zambian banks.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, if the figures read out by the hon. Deputy Minister were in trillions, it means that the trillions of Kwacha are banked in our banks.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions  

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, during the time under review, a lot of companies withheld their windfall tax. I would like to know if that tax has since been paid. 

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that that is a new question which can be ably answered by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, everyday, on our roads, we see copper concentrates being exported. Can the hon. Minister explain to this House why we are allowing the export of concentrates when Chambishi Metals is underutilised?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I hope that the hon. Member is not confusing the Chambishi Copper Smelter with Chambishi Metals. The facility available at Chambishi Metals is a high temperature smelter which was put up to treat the slag from the Nkana Smelter. 

Furthermore, I would like to inform this House that, as we see the various trucks transporting concentrates, we should keep in mind that Zambia is a transit point for materials from neighbouring countries. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, increasing the efficiency to ascertain the true value of ore or concentrates is cardinal. What is the ministry doing in this respect for us to realise the true value of the copper rather than depending on the Norwegians?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member listened to my response very carefully, I said that the Norwegians are helping to build the capacity of our officers to handle the collection of taxes from the mines. It is not the Norwegians who will carry out this responsibility, but the Zambians. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, apparently, copper is sold at the London Metal Exchange and the money goes back to the countries of origin of the investors. Would the hon. Minister confirm that he has no idea where the money is banked? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister mentioned trillions of kwacha in terms of mineral royalty and company tax. This, therefore, should tell us that this money is paid through our local banks and not foreign banks. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, Non-ferrous Corporation Africa Mining Plc (NFCA) in Chambishi is the one exporting copper concentrates. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government has any intentions of stopping the exporting of concentrates because taxes are paid based on the content of the ore body. 

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, my appeal to the hon. Member is that when he issues a statement such as this one, he should be factual. The NFCA is a sister company to Chambishi Copper Smelter which has a facility which treats the NFCA material. I wonder where the hon. Member got the information that NFCA is exporting concentrates. In any case, by law, any export of concentrates attracts a 15 per cent export tax. This, in itself, discourages the exporting of concentrates. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

 EMUSA SUB-CENTRE POLICE POST 

473. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    when the new police post built at Emusa Sub-Centre in 2006 in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency would be opened to the public; and 

(b)    when the ministry would send more police officers to the police post to join the only officer stationed there. 

Mr Taima: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the police post at Emusa Sub-Centre will be opened as soon as the necessary logistics are available for constructing a minimum of three houses for the officers, including providing water supply to the police post.

Mr Speaker, police officers will be sent to Emusa Sub-Centre as soon as the facilities mentioned above have been made available.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, the police post is being vandialised. This has been brought to the attention of the ministry time and again. When will this ministry take measures to ensure that the building is protected? The only police officer there spends all his time at a private joint. 

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, it is, indeed, regrettable that the construction of the police post was completed in 2006 but, because of reasons already explained, it has not been opened to date. The behaviour of the police officer stationed at this place to safeguard the building is equally regrettable. Therefore, I would like to seek the indulgence of the hon. Member for Chasefu. 

Mr Speaker, I will make a follow-up to find out why the police officer we sent there to safeguard the building is spending his time at a private joint. 

Laughter

Mr Lungu: We sent him to safeguard the building. We will, therefore, follow up on this matter. In case you are wondering when this facility will be made available, I would like to inform you that we are looking at this issue in detail, and I hope that we can find a solution to the issues raised.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister tried to pre-empt the question. However, I would like to find out whether he thinks that there is any amount of seriousness in constructing a police post, which an hon. Member of Parliament had been lamenting about for two years and, fours years down the line, it has not been opened. Does he think that it is logical for any government not to pay attention to a matter as serious as this one? 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, these are some of the details that I wish to follow up on. Indeed, it is not right. Sometimes, we take action with the belief that its course will be followed. An example has already been given of the police officer who is supposed to be safeguarding this post, but spends most of his time at a private corner. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Joint. 

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Sometimes, it is not that we do not want to do something. It is just that certain individuals are not carrying out their responsibilities. However, as I said earlier, I will make a follow up to ensure that the right thing is done. For instance, as we consider the budget for our operations, next year, I hope that we will receive the support of hon. Members in the approval of the budget requirements for the Ministry of Home Affairs. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I have noticed that questions relating to the construction of police posts appear almost daily. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Mkhondo Lungu, what the Government’s policy is regarding the construction of police posts countrywide in the hope that this question does not appear again tomorrow or even next month.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

This question relates to Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency. 

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, is it not a waste of public funds by this Government to construct a police post in Chasefu and not use it for its intended purpose?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, at face value, it looks like a waste of resources. However, things appear differently when you look at the issue in detail. Let me take this opportunity to explain the actual situation to the hon. Members of Parliament. I know that we all clamor for the establishment of police posts ….

Interruptions

Mr Lungu: I used the words ‘we all’ because I am referring to myself and my collegues.

 Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Lungu: The only thing, maybe, that we have not explained properly is that when we decide to put up a police post, it is not sufficient to just think of putting up a structure. When planning to construct a police post, we must think of other necessities. For example, there is the minimum requirement of three houses for us to have an operational police post in the area. It would not be useful to have a building without people manning it. Therefore, when we are building these police posts, we must also think about the houses for police officers. In some cases, be not only houses, but also the provision of water supply because the people manning it require other services including, where it is not possible to have water propelled toilets, the provision of pit latrines. Those are some of the requirements that we should consider when we decide to put up police posts. In some cases, we must consider using part of the CDF to support this exercise because, sometimes, we may allocate insufficient funds for the construction of the building, but not take into consideration the funds for houses for police officers.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that the reasons they have given for not opening the police station in question are fake in view of the fact that we have mobile police officers who are trained to go …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The word ‘fake’ is unparliamentary. Could the hon. Member use a better word.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that the reasons which have been give are not true in view of the fact that there are mobile police officers who are trained to go and live in tents to man installations such as bridges. Why can they not erect some tents for four or five police officers to start manning the police station in question?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, sometimes, when we are thinking of putting up these police posts, we also have to think about the well-being of the officers who man the police posts. The idea of putting up tents could be a temporary measure, but we do not want to encourage temporary measures. We want to look at the long-term solutions. I think that building houses is a better idea than erecting police tents. Therefore, we are encouraging hon. Members to think about the permanent measure of building houses for police officers when they plan to construct a police post.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs whether he is going to encourage the hon. Member for Chasefu to urge members of his community to volunteer as police reserves in the meantime while they are waiting for officers like we have done in Katuba.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Katuba for that advice.

Sir, I would be naïve not to encourage the hon. Member for Chasefu to do exactly what the hon. Member Parliament of Katuba is suggesting though we are looking at coming up with a permanent solution.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala:  Mr Speaker, police presence in any given area is the only stop-gap measure to lawlessness. Is the Government considering sending some police officers to Chasefu since there are some who are about to graduate from the training school?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, really, the problem is not the absence of trained police officers though it is part of the problem. At the moment, the main problem is that of the houses for police officers to man the police post. Therefore, once we have put up adequate housing facilities for police officers, we will move towards the opening of the police post.

Sir, like I said, the situation in Chasefu has taught us, in the ministry, a good lesson. I will not go into details of what we intend to do. However, superficially, we would want to include in the next budget the construction of twenty or fifteen police posts so that we can seek the approval of this House. You should be able to support us because those police posts will go along with the building of houses for police officers.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

                                              SMALL-SCALE WOMEN FARMERS

474. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development when the Government would start empowering women small-scale farmers with dairy animals.

The Deputy Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, women engaged in small-scale dairy farming have been empowered with dairy cattle through different dairy schemes across the country. The farmer groups of which the majority of the members are women are running the many milk collection centres countrywide after having received animals. These are on-going programmes being implemented with co-operating partners.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Limata: Mr Speaker, I have never seen women who have collected money from the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development in my constituency in the form of loans. I would want to know which part of Zambia and Western Province, in particular, has, so far, benefited from the support of the ministry.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, just like any other type of farming, dairy farming must be demand driven. The resources must be allocated to where farmers need such activities.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, I will give you an example of Fisenge where we have ten women who have come together to form a co-operative union. We have given those women dairy animals.

Sir, I will give another example of Choma, where women want to build a collection centre. We are building a new collection centre in Monze and Choma this year because the people of Choma need that. We have twenty-eight new collection centres throughout the country and these are situated where dairy farmers need them. 

For the information of the hon. Member of Parliament, we have about K389,500,000 in this year’s budget which we have put aside for dairy development schemes. Farmers who need this money must form co-operatives so that they can access this facility.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government has also extended veterinary services to the women looking after their animals since this programme is meant to empower women looking after their dairy animals.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, veterinary services for animals are offered to both male and female farmers. There is no distinction.

Sir, what we want to do, this year, is establish livestock services centres throughout the country so that such services are brought as near as possible to the livestock farmers. Both men and women livestock farmers are welcome to bring their animals for treatment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, what measures has the Government put in place to popularise this facility so that many rural women from our constituencies can access it?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, the first step the Government put in place to popularise the facility was to establish a stand-alone ministry so that all the farmers could easily know it and understand that they are being cared for.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulonga: In doing so, veterinary services have been taken as far back to the community level as possible where veterinary extension officers are, so that they work with the community. The farmers are given whatever services they want in their communities. These services are not only about treatment, but also how to look after the animals. The services also include how the animals can become productive and what type of animals are supposed to be kept in which areas.

Previously, farmers used to take certain animals to certain specific places where they may not be productive. Our services have been popularised by taking community extension officers to the community level. We also want to establish livestock service centres as well as breeding centres in all the nine provinces of our country so that our farmers can come to know the existence and importance of this ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, is it possible for the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development to do things the way the Ministry of Education does by allocating 30 per cent of the resources to women alone then the remaining 70 per cent is competed for by both sexes so that the empowerment of women by the ministry is conspicuously seen by the women?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, the first thing we are supposed to do is empower farmers with ideas, norms and skills of looking after their livestock. If we just say 30 per cent of the resources must be for women alone, without first empowering them with the necessary knowledge and skills of how to look after those animals, then we will just be wasting our resources. Yes, we have about K600 million which is supposed to go towards infrastructure development as well as the training of farmers. For this reason, I would like to encourage the farmers to get trained so that, afterwards, they can be empowered with our support. 

Mr Speaker, I am glad to report to this House that Monze and Choma have co-operative unions that have been formed and 30 per cent of the members are women. For Fisenge, about 98 per cent of the members are women who are involved in dairy farming.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa: Quality minister!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister how many co-operatives have applied for loans from the K300 million plus that he referred to and how much of this money has been disbursed considering that we are already half way through this budget year?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, may I request that I come back to the House at a later date to give a detailed answer because that seems to be a new question. I have to go back to the provinces to collect that data.

I thank you, Sir.

                                                COST OF DOING BUSINESS 

475. Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry what measures the Government had taken to reduce the high cost of doing business in Zambia so that local industries were not jeopardised through the flooding of cheap imported products under the Free Trade Regional Integration markets.

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya) (on behalf of The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, the ministry has embarked on a number of interventions, including the implementation of business environment reforms under the Private Sector Development Reform Programme (PSDRP)

Under the business licensing reforms, the regulatory environment is being reformed and unnecessary licences, procedures and requirements have been removed. The removal will reduce compliance costs for businesses, and thus reduce the cost of doing business. 170 licences have been earmarked for elimination. So far, licensing provisions in fourteen Bills were passed by Parliament during its last sitting.

Under the Doing Business Reforms, the Government has targeted five indicators affecting a business namely; starting a business, registering property, getting credit, dealing with construction permits and trading across borders.

The purpose of the Doing Business Reforms is to identify and remove obstacles that local enterprises face throughout the business cycle by reducing the time taken to comply with the required regulations. So far, the number of days to start a business, import and export goods has reduced. For instance, registering a business name at the Patents and Companies Registration Office (PACRO) now takes one day. At the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), the process of streamlining and decentralising processes for business registration, paying of property tax and reducing clearance times for customs clearance at border posts, has commenced and significant progress is being made.

Sir, through the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) Act, the Government is providing various incentives which the local industries may access as a cost serving measure. Some of the incentives are exemptions from the payment of taxes on imported capital equipment.

Another measure taken by the Government is the introduction of the Duty Drawback Scheme, where manufacturers are allowed to claim the customs duty paid on imported raw materials used in production.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, the Government is putting in place one-stop-border posts to facilitate trade and reduce the time and cost taken to clear goods and travellers through the entry points. The Government has so far established the Chirundu One-Stop-Border Post which was commissioned in October 2009. More similar facilities are planned for Nakonde, Kasumbalesa and Kazungula entry points. These facilities are reducing the costs of doing business which are incurred during the movement of raw materials on capital equipment, thus allowing the local industry to become more competitive.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, at the moment, a small-scale farmer has nowhere to sell his or her products. Why? This is because shops such as Shoprite are filled with imported potatoes, cabbages, tomatoes and chickens to mention but a few. When will this Government encourage the Zambian farmers to sell their products on the market? At the moment, it is not easy because of high competition from the South African produce.

Ms Siliya:  Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, working with various stakeholders such as the Zambia Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry (ZACCI), Zambia Business Forum and others, has continued to work with various small businesses, including small-scale farmers so that they increase their capacity in terms of standards and quality as far as the goods they want to sell in shops such as Shoprite is concerned.

Mr Speaker, over the years, since Shoprite came to Zambia, we have seen a number of local products being sold there and this has been because of a deliberate intervention by the working Government, with various stakeholders, to enable big businesses in the private sector such as Shoprite to be linked to  small businesses. That is why, today, in Shoprite and other shops, we see locally produced honey and other local products. This process is continuous and we should expect to see more local products, especially by small-scale farmers, on the shelves.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister agree that her sector is handicapped by the fact that the exchange rate policy, as pursued by the Bank of Zambia under the guidance of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, favours the consumption of imported goods at the expense of local ones. Does the hon. Minister agree with this economic truism which is the first lesson in economics?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I do not agree with the hon. Member for Lusaka Central because his view is a simplistic way of trying to explain what is happening in the economy. The exchange rate is just one aspect, but there are other issues to look at in the economy, including the cost of labour and issues of the tax structure, the cost of energy, transport and so on and so forth. I believe that, as a ministry and Government in general, our interventions are wholesome so that, at the end of the day, the Zambian business houses, including small-scale ones, can benefit from the opportunities and potential in the economy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lumba: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Minister has indicated, fuel can be a good ingredient in doing business and, because an oil marketing company gets about K400 on a litre of fuel and the Government, in taxes, gets over K3,000, can the Government not consider reducing the taxes it gets from fuel which it can recover when businesses do better through other taxes?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I believe that we, in the Government, do not claim to have the preserve of all wisdom. As we continue to plan for the Budget for 2011, in fact, this is an opportune time for hon. Members and various stakeholders to truly take an interest and make submissions to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning so that these issues can be looked at since, at the end of the day, we are all interested in ensuring that the incentives in the economy support the growth of business, especially the growth of local businesses.

I thank you, Sir.

NEW HOSTELS AT UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA

476. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Education:

(a)    when the construction of the new hostels at the Great East Road Campus of the University of Zambia(UNZA)would be completed;

(b)    how much money would be spent on the construction of the hostels on completion;

(c)    what the terms of the contract signed with the contractor engaged to construct the hostels were; and

(d)    how many students would be accommodated in the hostels on completion of the project.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Musosha): Mr Speaker, the construction of four hostels at the UNZA Great East Road Campus funded by the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) and the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) will be completed by the end of the third quarter of 2010. The construction of hostels under COJA (All Africa Games Organising Committee) should have been completed by April, 2010. However, the projects have been delayed because they are still waiting for funding following Zambia’s withdrawal from hosting the 2010 All Africa Games.

Mr Speaker, K12,978,725,000 will be spent upon completion of the two CIDA/GRZ funded projects which are running concurrently and K55,263,873,744 will be spent upon completion of the hostels being constructed under COJA.

Mr Speaker, both contracts were drawn using the World Bank standard contract for small works with the following main terms …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Phone rang.

Madam Deputy Speaker: That call will be taken at an appropriate time.

Mr Musosha: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that both contracts for the construction of the hostels at UNZA were drawn using the World Bank standard contract for small works with the following main terms: 

(i)    both are fixed sum contracts;

(ii)    the contract sum for the CIDA/GRZ hostels is K12,978,376,725 while it is at K55,263,878,744 for the COJA funded hostels; and

(iii)    the contract period is eighteen months.

Madam Speaker, for the CIDA/GRZ funded hostels, 240 students will be accommodated upon completion and 640 students will be accommodated upon completion of the COJA project.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, the hostels being constructed at the campus are a drop in the ocean. May I find out from the hon. Minister whether it will be a continuous process by the Government so that it can sort out this problem at the university.

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, we appreciate the concerns of the hon. Member of Parliament for Mfuwe. We know that since UNZA campus was constructed, over the years, enrolment has increased and infrastructure has lagged behind and this is why there is this direct intervention. I am sure that, in the future, the plans of the UNZA management and council will continue to consider additional infrastructure, including hostels.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that there has been a continuous danger of fires caused by illegal cooking by the students, have these new hostels taken into consideration this threat by incorporating communal cooking facilities at the end of each floor so that this danger is taken care of?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I have not yet visited the hostels, but I will be doing so sometime this month. So, I am not able to tell you the facts in terms of the design at this point.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, considering that the hostels that are being built will not be able to solve the problems of accommodation at the university and that demand for students’ accommodation will continue to increase, in the future, is the Government willing to consider encouraging the community living around the university to build houses or hostels that students could rent as they study at the university to supplement the accommodation at UNZA?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, actually, this is already happening, but it should not be limited to just those with houses around the university. I think that there is potential for business for many Zambians to get into the business of constructing student hostels around the country so that we can respond to the demand for student accommodation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education whether, with the withdrawal of the Government from the hosting of the All Africa Games which saw the university council and management agreeing to get into a private-public partnership (PPP) to develop an office block, park, hotels and, indeed, houses in the university grounds, opposite the banking compound here, the idea of building properties on a build, operate and transfer (BOT) basis is still being pursued.

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the management and council of UNZA has seen it fit to take maximum advantage of their assets, including the underutilised land surrounding the campus. So, I believe that with the All Africa Games or not, it is in the interest of the management to continue to pursue further investment in terms of infrastructure at UNZA which should be able to bring them returns that they can use to sustain the operations of the university.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya(Moomba): Madam Speaker, we are falling short of land everywhere in Lusaka. Therefore, I was wondering why those hostels are limited to three storeys. Why not double or triple that?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I believe that was a decision of the management and council of UNZA. I am sure that the hon. Member of Parliament for Moomba, whom I know is very interested in infrastructure issues, has proposed that line of thought to them in terms of future maximum utilisation of land at UNZA in future. I am sure that is something that should be considered.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MONGU TEACHERS’ TRAINING COLLEGE

477. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Education when Mongu Teachers’ Training College would start offering diploma courses.

Mr Musosha: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Education is currently upgrading colleges of education to offer diploma courses and degree programmes. Mongu College of Education will start offering diploma courses in 2012.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

________{mospagebreak}

MOTIONS 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMETN AND SOCIAL WELFARE FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Second Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on the 25th June, 2010.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): I beg to second the Motion, Madam Speaker.

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, going by its terms of reference set out in the National Assembly Standing Orders, your Committee undertook a study on the role of the Department of Community Development in poverty reduction and considered the report of the Auditor-General on medical waste management in Zambia. It also considered the action-taken report on your Committee’s first report for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, in order to appreciate the situation on the ground, in relation to the areas of study, your Committee toured selected health institutions and poverty reduction projects in the Central, Copperbelt and Luapula provinces. In addition, your Committee undertook a study tour of Mozambique in order to share experiences and exchange views with appropriate committees of the Mozambican Parliament and relevant government ministries and departments on poverty reduction at the community level.

Your Committee’s report is, therefore, in three parts. Part I, deals with the topical issues and local tours. Part II, is on the foreign tour while part III is on the action-taken report on your Committee’s first report for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, since hon. Members are already privy to the contents of the report, I will just highlight the salient issues.

The Role of the Department of Community Development in Poverty Reduction

Mr Speaker, your Committee is concerned about Zambia’s poverty levels which have remained generally high. The two departments, Social Welfare and Community Development in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, implement poverty reduction programmes.

Considering the worrying poverty levels, your Committee resolved to undertake a study on the role of the Department of Community Development in poverty reduction. Therefore, your Committee’s observations and recommendations are based on the findings from its interaction with the various stakeholders and the tour of selected poverty reduction programmes and projects.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that there are various definitions of poverty being used by the stakeholders. Each stakeholder adopts the definition they are comfortable with. This is a great concern to your Committee, as this could have a negative effect on the provisions and implementation of poverty reduction services and programmes.

Further, the measure of poverty being used by the Government, currently, which is based on the cost of food required to attain 2,800 calories per adult equivalent per day, for an average household size, is not understood by many citizens and stakeholders. Your Committee also noted, with dismay, that at the time of its interaction with the Government on this important topic, the Government could not reveal the cost of a monthly basic needs basket in 2010.

In light of the above, your Committee recommends that stakeholders reach consensus on the definition and measure of poverty in the Zambian context. Consensus on what is meant by poverty can contribute to focusing all programmes by various stakeholders on effective poverty reduction.

Madam Speaker, the Department of Community Development, which has a critical role to play in poverty reduction, especially at the community level, lacks capacity in terms of financial resources, staff and even transport to carry out its role effectively. For instance, officers are unable to visit recipients of the food security packs to monitor performance.

Your Committee recommends that the Government builds capacity in the Department of Community Development by:

(i)    recruiting the required staff;

(ii)    providing reliable transport; and

(iii)    providing information and communication technology related equipment.

This way, the department will be able to monitor and evaluate programmes easily and provide extension services even to other stakeholders in the sector. In addition, there is a need to provide adequate financial resources for programmes by funding the department adequately.

Madam Speaker, the food security packs and other poverty reduction programmes being implemented by the Department of Community Development are well intentioned and aimed at assisting the most vulnerable in society. However, your Committee is of the view that the food security pack programme cannot achieve its objectives because of the inadequate inputs provided to the beneficiaries and the late delivery of the same inputs.

In view of the potential benefit of the Food Security Pack Programme, of reducing poverty levels, your Committee urges the Government to provide adequate inputs and deliver them in time to the vulnerable people in communities.

Madam Speaker, as regards the report of the Auditor-General on medical waste management in Zambia, the office of the Auditor-General conducted an environmental audit on medical waste management in 2008. The audit was conducted pursuant to Section 45 (1) of the Public Finance Act No. 15 of 2004.

The objective of the audit was to assess the extent to which management of medical waste was in compliance with the existing laws, rules and regulations and identify causes and consequences of the ineffective waste management in order to provide relevant recommendations on how the defici… defici …

Laughter

Ms Kapata: … deficiencies could be addressed. Your Committee examined the report.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observed that the laws enacted to aid the management of health care waste are not enforced and, therefore, not complied with by health care facilities and other stakeholders. Furthermore, the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) is not doing enough to ensure compliance with laws, rules and regulations on the management of medical waste in health care facilities. This is evidenced by the lack of ECZ approved incinerators in health care facilities and the burying of health care waste in pits within hospital grounds.

Madam Speaker, there is a need to enforce the laws on waste management in order to improve compliance of health care facilities with the standards and procedures on the management of health care waste. Your Committee also recommends that the Government should provide all new and old public health care facilities or institutions with approved incinerators. Furthermore, ECZ is being urged to enhance its regulatory role by carrying out regular inspections of all health care facilities.

As earlier stated, your Committee undertook a study tour of Mozambique in order to share experiences and exchange views with appropriate Committees of the Mozambican Parliament and relevant Government ministries and departments on the following aspects of poverty reduction at the community level:

(a)    poverty reduction programmes among vulnerable groups;

(b)    community participation in poverty reduction programmes;

(c)    empowerment of women; and

(d)    micro credit schemes in the Mozambican experience.

Madam Speaker, your Committee noted that Mozambique’s approach and programmes for poverty reduction at the community level are similar to Zambia’s. Beyond that, however, the Government in Mozambique provides loans to persons and groups who cannot manage to borrow on commercial terms from the banks. For instance, interest rates on loans obtained from micro credit fund centres are between three to five per cent and are lower than the commercial rates.

Therefore, your Committee urges the Government to emulate Mozambique by giving loans to persons and groups, who do not have access to commercial banks, at affordable interest rates. Vulnerable groups, such as persons with disabilities and women’s clubs should be provided with affordable credit and be monitored to ensure that they pay back into a revolving fund.

Madam Speaker, in Mozambique, agriculture-based clubs and associations that are participating in poverty reduction programmes enjoy great support from the Government in terms of extension and veterinary services. This helps to lower their costs and improve the success of the projects. The situation is different in Zambia as was discovered during the local tours. In the Zambian situation, clubs involved in animal rearing are not provided with veterinary services while the beneficiaries of the food security packs are rarely visited by community development officers and extension workers to check on their performance.

Your Committee recommends that the Government provide free extension and veterinary services to persons, clubs and associations that are involved in poverty reduction projects at the community level. These services will enhance the performance and contribute to the success of the projects.

Madam Speaker, the Government of Mozambique provides a ready market for the clubs that are involved in animal breeding in that it buys off the animals at commercial prices immediately they are ready. This way, Mozambique has made great strides in ensuring that as many persons as possible become beneficiaries. To this effect, your Committee implores the Government to pilot the idea of providing a ready market for various produce from the poverty reduction projects, especially the agriculture-oriented projects. This will ensure that the beneficiaries are not left at the mercy of the exploitative market and can make some profit. This will also guarantee the continuity of many clubs.

Madam Speaker, Mozambique has decentralised the funding for the provision of loans to clubs and associations to the district level.

Your Committee recommends that the grants system in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services be decentralised to the district level so that as many beneficiaries as possible can access the funds. This will also reduce the processing period and quicken the disbursement of funds, as beneficiaries will be identified and appraised quickly by the communities in which they live and the officers at the district level.

Lastly, your Committee urges the Government to consider undertaking exchange visits with other countries that have best practices in order to learn from each other.

In conclusion, your Committee is very grateful to you for the valuable guidance you have provided during the year. It is also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary memoranda and briefs.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to register my appreciation to all members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to the work of your Committee. Allow me also to give thanks to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice and services rendered during this year.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Lumba: Now, Madam.

Mr Lumba: Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to second the Motion, currently, on the Floor of the House to adopt the second report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services.

This is an important Motion. I thank the mover for ably kick-starting the debate, especially on the issues of poverty reduction. 

Madam, the mover has highlighted salient issues in the report, therefore, I will only point out a few issues as I second the Motion.

Madam, both the Government and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) acknowledge that they are partners in national development. However, your Committee is concerned with the assertion that is, sometimes, propagated that the two cannot work together.

Your Committee feels that this could be as a result of the mistrust between the two. To this effect, your Committee urges both the Government and NGOs to build mutual trust and agree on clear roles for each other in poverty reduction. The Government should be willing to provide space for NGOs to participate fully in issues of poverty reduction.

Madam Speaker, trying to achieve national coverage of poverty reduction programmes being implemented by the department with inadequate resources leads to spreading resources thinly. The little resources are spread on a wide coverage. As a result, the effect is not noticed. For example, women’s clubs receive K2 million per club, but the large number of members renders the grant inadequate.

Therefore, your Committee recommends that the department targets specific areas based on poverty reduction rather than rushing to achieve national coverage. Other areas should be covered when one area has graduated from high poverty levels.

In addition, there is a need to target specific communities with specific poverty reduction interventions such as micro credit and functional literacy based on vulnerability assessment and demand by a particular community.

Madam Speaker, there is a tendency by communities to accept their vulnerable condition and willingly sit back to wait for handouts. This phenomenon is worrying because even communities that have assets such as animals and land consider themselves to be vulnerable and poor. The sad part is that this has led to a donor dependency syndrome. It is also sad that this has become a national phenomenon and we are proud of being beggars.

In this regard, there is a need to sensitise people in order to change their way of thinking on issues of empowerment for poverty reduction.

Madam Speaker, your Committee urges the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to develop deliberate transformation programmes aimed at changing the mindset of people and help them realise their own potential by effectively utilising locally and readily available resources such as livestock, land and timber to reduce their poverty.

Madam Speaker, the Department of Community Development targets the vulnerable, but viable clients who are expected to graduate from their initial poverty. There is a danger of the programmes failing, as the same people may be benefiting more and more.

Furthermore, despite some stakeholder, submitting that the programmes being implemented by the Department of Community Development were effective, it is difficult to ascertain the effectiveness of the programmes in the absence of a clear monitoring and evaluating mechanism to indicate some positive performances.

In view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that the ministries of Community Development and Social Services and Finance and National Planning develop a clear monitoring, evaluating and tracking mechanism in order to ascertain the effectiveness of the programmes. These mechanisms will ensure that the beneficiaries, whose poverty levels have been reduced, graduate and leave room for others to be assisted.

Madam Speaker, allow me to comment on the Auditor-General’s Report on Medical Waste Management in Zambia. 

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Health, which is the leading institution responsible for the provision of health care, seems to suggest that it has no financial capacity to effectively and efficiently manage health care waste. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government provides adequate financial resources to the Ministry of Health, thereby building the financial capacity of the ministry to attend to all issues of health care waste management.

In addition, health care providers and health care personnel should be sensitised on their obligation and responsibilities as regards health care waste management.

Madam Speaker, while there are a number of pieces of legislation that provide for health care management, these laws are not well co-ordinated. This has resulted in the various stakeholders involved failing to take up their statutory responsibilities in waste care management.

Furthermore, there is no comprehensive policy on health care waste management. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government undertakes a comprehensive review of all the laws that have a component of health care waste management to ensure that they are harmonised and disseminated to all stakeholders. Your Committee also implores the various stakeholders to strengthen their relationship and co-ordination on issues of health care waste management. 

Madam Speaker, your Committee further observes that there is a lapse as regards the handling of waste carefully which is a danger to waste handlers, health personnel and patients. Therefore, your Committee recommends that the Government ensures that waste handlers in health care facilities are provided with protective clothing and sensitised on issues of handling health care waste. Additionally, the Government should explore the option of coming up with a utility company to be in charge of general waste management.

Finally, Madam Speaker, it is not clear to your Committee as to who is responsible for the transportation of waste from the health care facility disposal site to the designated final dump site managed by the local authorities. 

Your Committee also notes that some health care facilities have engaged private companies to transport health care waste. Some of these are not certified by the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) and the respective local authorities. In view of the foregoing, the Government should clarify who exactly is responsible for transportation of waste from the health care facility disposal site to the designated dumping site managed by the local authorities. 

Your Committee further urges the ECZ and other local authorities to work together and ensure that only certified companies are contracted to transport and manage health care waste.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to say one or two words on the debate on the Second Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare.

Madam Speaker, I want to commend your Committee for a job well done by raising issues in this report.  One cardinal issue that I noticed in this report has to do with medical waste. I am more interested in the definition of medical waste which reads that medical waste is a by product of health care that includes blood, body parts, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, sharp, non-sharp, medical devices and radioactive materials and that it is a reservoir of potentially harmful micro organisms which could infect hospital patients, health care workers and the general public. I think this is what is critical. 

Madam Speaker, I have noticed, with dismay, that the Ministry of Health has not taken the management of medical waste seriously. I say so because at the Kitwe General Hospital in Nkana Constituency, incinerators are used to dispose of medical waste. When this hospital was constructed, the population was small on the Copperbelt. However, the population has now grown, overwhelming the hospital with the patients that visit this institution. This institution is producing a lot of medical waste which needs to be disposed of on a daily basis. The incinerator that is at this hospital operates twenty-four hours, producing smoke and soot which finds its way to the rooftops of most of the houses in Buchi Compound. This is the soot that usually finds its way on flowers and grass because the residential area is very close to the hospital. The chimney of this incinerator is very short and so the smoke does not get to be absorbed in the atmosphere. The smoke which finds its way into the compound has a foul smell.

Madam Speaker, in Buchi Compound, there is a tuberculosis clinic. Again, there is a small incinerator at this clinic which is used to dispose of medical waste. If you visited this clinic, you would see the agony that the residents of Buchi are going through. People unconsciously inhale the smoke from the incinerator at Kitwe Central Hospital because the Ministry of Health has failed to come up with a better way of disposing of the medical waste. 

Going by the report, my sincere appeal, to the ministry is that it should quickly move in and see how it can improve the incinerators that are at Kitwe Central Hospital and the tuberculosis clinic in Buchi Compound. In fact, there is a need to put up an incinerator at Kamitondo Clinic because there has never been one. 

Madam Speaker, I note, from the report the submissions by the ECZ to the effect that the booklet of guidelines on management and disposal of medical waste entitled “Technical Guidelines on the Sound Management of n Health Care Waste and Minimum Specifications for Health Care Waste Incineration” was launched in 2008 and the programme was supposed to run up to 2010. The unfortunate part is that, as an elected Member for Nkana since 2006, I have not seen this programme, and yet, according to the report, it was meant to reduce the risk of people getting in contact with health care waste, that is patients, visitors and the public. 

If people have not been sensitised or not had an opportunity to see the guidelines that have been drawn, how do you expect them to be protected against medical waste? This is 2010 and there is no sign of the programme being implemented, and yet it is about to expire. Again, we are told, in the report, that another programme is about to start from 2010 to 2014. How do you come up with programmes that cannot be implemented or appreciated by the people? Disposal of medical waste is a serious issue that needs to be handled with care because, if it is controlled, then we shall be able to reduce visits to health institutions. 

Madam Speaker, I will concentrate on Kitwe Central Hospital. On a visit to a ward in this hospital, one is first and foremost, met with a foul smell coming from the waste. The environment contains micro organisms which spread disease when inhaled. People go  to the hospital for treatment, but instead, by the time they are discharged, they end up with unknown diseases which they would have contracted while in hospital.

The first thing we want to see is that the hospitals are the cleanest areas to keep patients. People should not be worried about contracting diseases, especially when they visit health institutions, whether for treatment or to visit patients.

Madam, the report has brought out a very important issue regarding the management of medical waste which the Government should address seriously.

We do not want to be told, like your Committee was told at every visit, that “Yes, we are trying to address this and that and this and that has been done.” In certain places, because they knew your Committee was coming, they tried to do a little cleaning up. That should not be the case.

We want to see the Ministry of Health going flat out to make sure that things are done properly and in advance. We would like your Committee to come to this House to report that, “Yes, we are very happy because we went and saw how well the institutions are being kept. We are very satisfied with the way this hospital or that clinic is looking after its incinerator and managing its medical waste.” I think that that is what is really going to comfort us, as hon. Members of this House.

With those few words, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Health to find time to visit Kitwe Central Hospital and the other two clinics I mentioned, to see for himself the type of incinerator that is used.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, I rise to contribute to the debate on this very important report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare. 

Madam, from the outset, I want to say that I have great respect for the men and women who constitute your Committee. However, having read through this report, it is very clear that they must have had difficulty coming up with these observations and recommendations.

I will start with the first part of the report which looks at what poverty is and the various programmes under community development that are targeted at reducing poverty.

From the outset, Madam Speaker, I want to state that the recommendations and observations of the Committee could not have been assisted looking at the submissions that were made and also the number of stakeholders that your Committee engaged. 

What strikes me, in trying to come up with a position on this particular topic, when I look at the number of organisations, both from the Government and private sector is that the ministry, which, in my view, is cardinal in issues of reducing poverty and raising the living standards of the people, was not consulted. I am talking about the Ministry of Local Government and Housing or, indeed, any other local authority in the country.

I am, therefore, not surprised that, at the end of this report, your Committee could not come up with recommendations that harmonise the various policies of this Government when it comes to issues of reducing poverty and improving the living standards of the people in this country.

Madam Speaker, we have adopted the policy on decentralisation and this Government is on record as having said that it was implementing the policy, and yet when there are questions that border on improving the Government’s provision of social services and improving the living standards of the people, the recommendations that come out are far from what is supposed to be done. There are recommendations such as resources must be given to this department so that it can decentralise,  and yet we should be asking ourselves whether the community development can decentralise itself in the local authorities that already have departments of  social development that are actually performing these functions. 

I see so much confusion in the way we are running our affairs as a country. I request the Chairperson of your Committee, in winding up, to tell me whether what I am saying is not correct, considering your Committee’s interaction with the different stakeholders when they were looking at this subject. 

Madam Speaker, again, it is the same confusion with regard to waste management. We are saying that we do not know who is responsible for waste management. The laws are very clear. We know that the responsibility of waste management lies with the ministries of Health, Local Government and Housing and the ECZ under the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

When we have several actors in a particular field, we think that that is a problem. No. There can be many actors, but what is important is for the line ministry to co-ordinate the various actors because, at the end of the day, with certain functions, you cannot have one line ministry running the show. 

This is the same confusion we have seen even in the road sector in Zambia today. I repeat that, by 2011, we will not have worked on the roads as much as we want to because we have begun to centralise the functions. The people who were working on roads in their respective areas have stopped and folded their arms waiting for one institution.

As regards the issue of waste management, households are supposed to ensure that they dispose of the waste properly, and yet this is the responsibility of the local authority. The Ministry of Health is responsible for waste management at that level, but the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the ECZ are generally responsible for ensuring that waste disposal is properly done.

Madam Speaker, my point is simply that there is total confusion in the way we are doing things. Instead of moving forward, we seem to be going backwards. Something is wrong. I do not know what is happening. We seem to be concentrating on the wrong things rather than doing things according to the policies that we come up with.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: We do not seem to be following our own laws. Sometimes, we complain about laws when we all know that laws are there. Sometimes, we have problems because of the fact that we employ permanent secretaries who are not qualified for this position and do not understand these issues.

Hon. Ntundu: Hammer!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, in my conclusion, this report does not help this country and does not take it forward. The functions that we are talking about should be decentralised to the local authorities instead of saying that we should give money, create offices and employ staff. Some of these activities were implemented a long time ago. 

What I am saying is not outside the policy, which has been adopted or implemented, but the problem is the lack of co-ordination and understanding of the policies that we have adopted. Now, even Parliament is getting derailed in the process.

Madam Speaker, I rest my case.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Motion.  I also thank the mover and seconder of this report. From the outset, I would like to state that I will confine my debate to just two issues. That is, the issue of poverty reduction and medical waste.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of poverty reduction, your Committee was informed by the Central Statistic Office (CSO) that, according to the last Living Conditions Monitoring Survey, of the 11.7 million Zambians, 59 per cent were classified as poor and 36 per cent of those were living under extreme poverty.

Madam Speaker, we were also informed in one of the workshops that was held in this Chamber, that this figure of 11.7 million Zambians was far from correct. We were told in this House that Zambia’s population was in the region of 13.5 million. Therefore, my point is that whatever figure we get from the CSO, in terms of percentages, must be treated with a pinch of salt because there is a two million plus difference between the CSO figures and the United Nations (UN) figures that were given to us by Hon. Vernon Mwaanga during the workshop. 

However, coming to the substantive issue, poverty has been described by many based on the concept of the food intake basket per month in this country as generated by Caritas Zambia. The other measure of poverty is how much calories one takes per day. By the CSO standards, you need 2,800 calories in a day to be classified as someone who is outside the bracket of poverty.

I want to first say that the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon … 

Interruptions 

Mr Nkombo: … that one there, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

    Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … Hon. Kaingu, through his ministry, has done very well in trying to reduce the poverty levels through the programmes that we see in place. However, it is only fair to say that whilst the programmes seem to be well intended, their achievements are slightly far from what is required. Madam Speaker, I will try to demonstrate to you what I mean, starting with the food security pack.

Madam Speaker, the food security pack is a very well-intended programme, but I think its implementation has serious defects. I will give you an example. The programme is twofold. There is the Government funded programme on one hand and the Africa Development Bank (ADB) funded one on the other and, perhaps, a few other programmes. However, our experiences, as a Committee, during the tour were that, most times, the inputs were delivered very late. A case in mind is Mansa where seed was delivered at the end of January and fertiliser was applied in February. I think that is a serious flaw in the implementation of a well-intended programme. Fortunately, for our brothers who live up north, even as late as April, when we toured the area, there were still some rains and the yield was not bad. Let me caution the hon. Minister to see to it that the programmes are run on time so that we can see some positive results. 

Madam Speaker, the formation of womens’ clubs is a well intended programme as well. When we came to Parliament in 2006, I recall going to the office of the hon. Minister of  Community Development and Social Services who I think is still the same one.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, debate through the Chair.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I went to the hon. Minister’s office to collect a cheque for womens’ clubs. I identified the women who had initiatives that needed to be supported. That mandate has been removed from the ambit of the hon. Member of Parliament and taken back to the ministry. Nowadays, we are informed that the hon. Minister himself is the one who is responsible for giving out cheques to the womens’ clubs.

Madam Speaker, you cannot mark your own examination, …

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … whereby you go and distribute the cheques for poverty reduction and then expect to do the assessment yourself. I think that is an area which the hon. Minister requires to look at very carefully. Without appearing to be extremely controversial, I think that if the reports that we are receiving of the hon. Minister giving out cheques are correct, I think there should be some realignment in that regard.  That responsibility should go back to the hon. Member of Parliament who, in turn, will normally depend on the help of the ward councillor. I am very sure that the ward councillor knows which women in that particular ward are more deserving than the others. If the hon. Minister from Lusaka goes with the flag on his car, let us assume to Luena, and starts giving out cheques, …

Hon. Opposition Members: On the road!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … on the road side to women’s clubs that may not even have bank accounts, what happens when some of these cheques face difficulties with the clearing system? I think that is a serious flaw that requires to be addressed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I will leave that point for a second, but I think that it is a very serious one which the hon. Minister requires to look at.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me now come to the latest ideology in my own vocabulary regarding my description of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government. It is said that the donors are being intimidated in their duty to provide services to poor people whom we represent. I think it is infantile behaviour for the whole system to start intimidating donors.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

We are debating the report. Can the hon. Member stick to the report.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, donors participate in poverty reduction programmes. This is where I am heading to. The International Fund for Agricultural Development, for instance, an Italian-based outfit, has been supporting this country with seed for a very long time. Those are donors. I am speaking generally without specific issues in mind. The Government’s behaviour is wrong because the ramifications or implications of frustrating donor support are not far from the boundaries of this country.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, who is debating, …

Hon. Opposition Members: So well.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: ... well, from your point of view, yes.

   Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order not to mention that his party president and the Patriotic Front (PF) party president are the ones who are asking for donor support to be removed from Zambia?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

I think we have to be very serious with the work of the House. That is my guidance. We must not create an open ground for putting up cross country debates. We should limit ourselves to the issues on the Floor of the House. You will realise that, as a matter of procedure, we try to avoid hon. Members of the Committee coming again to debate their report in the House. Additionally, issues that are happening out there which are not on the Floor of the House, should not come here because it is not for the Chair to start guiding how political parties are relating out there. Therefore, I will urge the hon. Members to stick to what we are discussing without any insinuations or innuendos in the manner that we debate. We are an open and democratic House. We should remain as such.

The hon. Member may continue and should stick to the Committee’s report.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, thank you for your very wise ruling on the matter. I am limiting my debate to poverty reduction programmes and …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Member, when a ruling is made, you stand up and continue debating in the guided manner and not how you want to do it. 

Can the hon. Member debate.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I have a concern over the monitoring and evaluation of these poverty reduction programmes countrywide. It is true that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, which has two departments, has serious shortfalls in terms of logistical support for evaluation officers to give frequent visits to the beneficiaries of the food security pack. As a result of that, when the beneficiaries do get the seed and fertiliser, it becomes extremely difficult for them to understand that they are supposed to be on a graduating programme. I believe it is supposed to be two or three years within which one is supposed to be graduating from the bracket of those people who are getting Government support. I think that it is true that very few people, if any, over the years that the programme has been running, have graduated and are now deemed to be less poor or out of the poverty bracket. That is another fact.

Madam Speaker, I want to advise the hon. Minister that when he is preparing the Budget for 2011, the year of the Lord, he must insist that he puts in his ministry budget, a line for vehicles and motorbikes to enable the monitors go on their outreach programmes to supervise all these Parliamentary Reform Programmes (PRPs). That is the only way you are going to avoid the stress that currently goes on.  For instance, in Kabwe District, the Department of Social Welfare has to lend its vehicle to the Department of Community Development to go and monitor. What that means is that the Department of Social Welfare instead cannot go to Chibombo to attend to juvenile delinquents. It cannot fully perform its function. I think that is a fact.

Madam Speaker, I want to now speak a little about the medical waste and I think it is a subject that is supposed to be very close to everyone’s heart. I want to say that the hospitals countrywide are not strictly adhering to the colour coding of segregating medical from domestic waste. The medical waste has got its own designation for disposal on one hand and so does the domestic waste on the other. Imagine a case where there is an amputation and the incinerator is not working. They get a brazier, a mbaula as it is commonly known, to burn a limb that is amputated. The obvious thing is that the bone of that limb will not turn to ashes. It will just be put into this black or red plastic for disposal at the dump site. 

Madam Speaker, you should find time to go to the dump site and see for yourself what goes on there. What is most alarming about this statement is that, at the dump site, the scavengers have now given themselves a much more decent name to that of waste pickers. For instance, if you go to the Chunga dump site, just less than 3 km from here, you will be shocked to see what goes on there. I am sure even the hon. Minister of Health would be terribly shocked to see how waste pickers or scavengers are permitted to actually live at the dump site and collect this waste that comes from all over the show. 

The unfortunate thing is that in cases where, for instance, expired drugs are not destroyed, they find themselves back into the community. There is a danger to that. I am simply saying that, through you, Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister requires to engage his staff to make sure that these expired drugs are destroyed as per stipulated rules and regulations that Hon. Masebo mentioned. We do not need a rocket scientist to know how to destroy ... 

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 I think the hon. Member, who is a member of this Committee has taken up all the time. That is the danger because we already have given the Committee report to the House. Allow other hon. Members to also make observations to the observations you made. You are part of the report. 

Can you wind up to allow others to debate.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, in my conclusion, I would like to say that, as regards the medical waste in wards, there is a policy that there should be no segregation of people with tuberculosis (TB). Now, you will find that these people are no longer in isolation wards. That is a matter that the hon. Minister and the Government are required to review so that whether the TB is in our community or it is not, I think, people who have it, especially at an advanced stage, require to be segregated.

With those few words, I beg to move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, also, to add my voice to the debate on this important Motion. Firstly, I would like to thank the mover, the seconder and, indeed, your entire Committee for a very good report.

Madam, I have seen various definitions that have been given in as far as poverty is concerned. Through the years, I have learnt, in this House, that poverty can be defined in different ways. If you do not have enough money in the pocket, then you are pocket poor and that is poverty. If you do not have enough food on the table, then you are food poor and that is food poverty. Therefore, poverty depends on the way you look at issues and what you are trying to address. If you do not have clothes, that is material poverty and that is poverty itself. 

Madam, poverty is such a serious issue which requires to be addressed seriously and we need to put in place a mechanism to ensure that this is handled properly and with the seriousness it deserves. People are living in abject poverty. The poverty levels that we have in the country, today, are at 68 per cent of the Zambians living below the poverty datum line. Due to that, we cannot take this issue lightly. When we talk about alleviating poverty, we should ensure that all the resources and machinery that we have is targeted towards that because Zambia is a signatory to the millennium development goals (MDGs). One of the MDGs talks about reducing the poverty levels by 2015. How are we going to do that? How are we going to kick out this poverty if we take a laissez-faire approach to addressing the poverty issues? 

Madam, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is better placed to deal with this issue squarely. It can only do that if some of the issues are addressed. It is fully empowered to ensure that even the staff in that ministry are able to move from one position to another. Without transport, it is very difficult for us to talk about poverty and even monitor the various programmes that are taking place. Not only that, we also need inspectors to ensure that we inspect even these women’s clubs we are talking about. If we have a situation where we have a ministry that does not even know what is going on around town, it will be very difficult for us to talk about poverty and the clubs and say we are doing very well. Therefore, how well are they doing when we are not even inspecting them?

Madam, even when we look at situations where we see my uncle, the hon. Minister, going round  distributing cheques in trying to address poverty selectively, I think that is not acceptable. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, poverty should be addressed. Our target to eradicate it is 2015. We should make this our target. However, if we issue cheques selectively, we will be eradicating poverty for a season only. Poverty should be eradicated entirely and not for a season. Hon. Members of Parliament are better placed to ensure that when it comes to poverty alleviation, they are used as conduits to bring poverty …

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Malwa: Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to raise a point of order on Hon. Kamfwa, who is ….

Laughter 

Mr Malwa: … insinuating that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is only active during the election period. Is he in order to say that considering that this ministry has been mandated to reduce the poverty levels in the country in all seasons and not just during the election period? I need your serious ruling. 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

The point of order raised may sound very important, but it is a point of debate. The Chair intends to give enough time to the Executive to respond to the issues raised and that is when those issues may be captured. Do not debate through a point of order. 

The hon. Member may continue. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it is not the distribution of the money meant for women’s clubs that is the problem, but the selective distribution, where people choose who to give and who not to give. The poverty that exists in this country is everywhere. Everyone has a right to the funds that might be available for the alleviation of poverty. 

Madam Speaker, we have a big problem where a lot of women’s clubs have been formed in many places. My constituency, Kantanshi, for instance has a lot of them. They have been waiting to see what assistance they will get from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and the Executive. However, to date, nothing much has happened. They are asking what K2 million can do for a group of fifty. This is a problem and poverty alleviation may not be feasible because we are not giving enough time and resources to ensure that this problem is solved. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, I am not talking from without. There are clubs in my constituency that were visited by your Committee. I thank them for coming to Mufulira. They came to Mokambo and the women at Mokambo Club have been complaining. They might have been assisted with goats, but there still is no water. This is an issue which can be resolved by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. The Committee went to Tuwine Club that is doing very well. However, K2 million will not assist in any way. We need proper funding that will alleviate poverty. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: We also need deliberate programmes to be put in place. 

Madam Speaker, when I talk about deliberate programmes, we should not just talk about women’s clubs, but also people with disabilities. How has this ministry addressed this issue? A person who is differently-abled, uneducated and living in poverty has double tragedy. It is worse off for such an individual. It is important that deliberate programmes are put in place to assist such persons. If we do not do this, we will not meet the MDGs that we have been talking about. We will continue singing about these goals and, at the end of the day, we will fail to meet them. It will just be lip service in the end. While other countries will be meeting these goals, all we will be are witnesses. God will hold us responsible because we have abundant resources in this country to meet their needs. Every time we talk about poverty, I am reminded of copper and everything else that we have. We should have resolved the issue of poverty by now. 

Madam Speaker, this is why the pact is coming to power.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: They will ensure that we resolve this issue once and for all. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Parliament is not a campaign platform and it shall not be used as such. The hon. Member should desist from bringing issues of the pact. The pact is not known in this august House. 

Can you continue debating the report. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. We need to ensure that we address issues from a more serious angle. People like me, as a whip, are looking forward to coming and resolving such issues when we change places. 

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: It is important to realise that poverty should be addressed. For now, you have the mandate to address it. If you fail to address this issue, we will come and resolve it and show the way. 

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Of course, I am talking about the year of our Lord, 2011. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, there is a need to revamp management in that area. At the moment, there are incinerators at various hospitals where scavengers and dogs go to pick stuff from. Dogs go to these places and pick things that have been thrown away and take them back to the communities, thereby transmitting diseases. It is important to look at these issues. These are not campaign issues. These are issues that are affecting the community. They need to be addressed. People are complaining about them. 

Madam Speaker, most contractors do not follow the standard in constructing incinerators. Most of them have no fences and so the dogs go there at will. It is important that we address these issues. 

Ms Lundwe: Finally!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, it will not be ‘finally’. I will continue because I have the mandate. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: It is important that we look at these issues and try to address them squarely. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, on the issue of calories in relation to poverty reduction, I noticed that there was a figure of 2,800. What do people in poverty stricken areas know about calories? Even in this House, how many people know about calories? It is important that we take it upon ourselves to explain to the people that a combination of certain foods will give them a certain number of calories. We should explain to our people so that we educate them. We cannot merely talk about 2,800 calories. What is that? It is important that people out there know. They should know whether they are eating millet or sorghum. They should know whether it is roller or breakfast meal which will give them those calories. The onus is on the Executive to explain so that people understand. 

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the Food Security Pack Programme, people complain about the packs that are normally given to the community. The complaint is that they are distributed late. The inputs do not arrive in good time. It is important that they are assisted for sustainable poverty alleviation to take place. They need to distribute in good time so that the people have these inputs and begin their agricultural activities. This, of course, should not be done selectively. It is important that we look at these issues seriously. 

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you. 

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking your Committee headed by the maverick Member of Parliament for Mandevu ...  

Laughter 

Mr Mulongoti: … and ably supported by the hon. Member for Solwezi Central, who has disappeared.  

Madam Speaker, while some of the information they have adduced is useful, I am a little disappointed in that we do not seem to know what we are looking at in addressing the issues of poverty and defining poverty. 

Mr Speaker, I grew up in the village and drank water from the river. I got firewood from the bush and we grew our own food. What we have done has taken away the pride of the people by going to rural areas and labeling the people poor. 

We can only begin to address the issue …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Members on my left will listen because the Chair remembers that the right was listening carefully. Can we allow debate to flow and not make running commentaries during the hon. Minister’s speech.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Mulongoti: We have taken away the pride of the people. As we go back to address the issues of poverty, we must begin to say to ourselves, what is it that has made our people begin to respect handouts when they were self respecting people who grew their own food, built their own houses and drank water from the river happily? You have begun to glorify NGOs who have used poverty as a way of raising funds for themselves.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: What we are seeing is a very well nourished cadre of NGOs and poor people whom they are saying they are supporting.

As leaders, we have the same mindset. Therefore, we must begin to rethink these issues. We want to think that those who are going outside the country to look for money in the name of the poor are supporting the poor. Which poor are they supporting? My mother in the village is happy with the way she lives. My mother does not need a new dress everyday. She does not need bread because she is sufficiently supported by the local foods.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulognoti: My mother can eat cassava and sweet …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

You may continue. Can we listen to the debate.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, my mother can survive without all these trappings we are attaching to ourselves as people who are well off.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mulongoti: Why is it that it is you people from urban areas who are going to the rural areas and claiming that the way the people live there is not right when they have lived like that for years and they have been very happy? If you look at the status of some of these people in urban areas and compare to some of people in the rural areas, the people in the rural areas look healthier … 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … than these characters who are hiding in town and are not able to raise money to buy food.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, some of the hon. Members of Parliament come from rural constituencies. I do not know whether I can take them to their constituencies and parade people you say live in poverty who look emaciated. The majority of those who come to receive you look very fit because they feed on the land. We need to encourage them to reclaim their pride so that they continue eating the foods they were eating. You have now taken away their pride by continuously calling them poor as a way of raising money. Even you in the Opposition do the same thing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, …  

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Unfortunately, that point of order can only be on breached procedure which I cannot see and the hon. Minister is on the Floor. 

Can we allow the debate to continue?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, we have introduced chemical fertiliser in the villages instead of helping them to restore the soils by making them rich again. We continue to dump chemical fertiliser on them hoping that by so doing, we will solve the problem of poverty which we are talking about. I do not think that is the route we should take. We should begin to think of taking lime to try and take the soils back to their original status. Conservation farming is the only way we can eradicate what we call poverty in a very glorified manner, which is very shameful. You are even proudly saying that the people who are coming here are helping to eradicate poverty instead of directing the people who are not performing in town into rural areas so that they can grow their own food and be able to survive. You are encouraging them to stay in towns so that you can ask foreigners to give you money to pacify them. 

Ms Cifire: Hammer!

Mr Mulongoti: That is not the kind of attitude we should have. The attitude that we should have is that if anybody wants to help you, they should create opportunities for your people to be self sustaining. What is happening is that you are encouraging them to stay in the urban areas so that you can use them for your political reasons.

Mr Mukanga: Aah!

Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, recently, we have had an issue which Hon. Musenge referred to which is the urgency of controlling the spread of diseases. He was economical with his words because he did not go as far as asking the hon. Minister of Health to try and limit handshakes because they spread disease.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: How can you insist that …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

The Chair did not read anything on handshakes. Can the hon. Minister stick to the report on poverty and other issues in the report? 

Ms Cifire: Hammer, Minister!

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I was not also very happy that your Committee toured Mozambique to go and look at poverty. Is there anything glorious about going to look at poor people in another country? I expected your Committee to go to Shang’ombo or Keembe to go and discuss with the people to find out what it is that they can recommend to be helped on. We even proudly write that we went to Mozambique to see the poor …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, unless we change our mindset in the way we look at this issue of what we are going to report to each other in this House, we will not get anywhere. I saw one hon. Member in a bowtie speaking very proudly that this is what they will produce next time they are sent out.

 I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Madam Speaker, I will limit myself to my area of responsibility and that is health. I must say that I commend the Chairperson of your Committee for the work they have carried out on health. I bemoan the speeches of some hon. Members who spoke before Hon. Mulongoti and tried to dilute this very good and positive report.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: They misread some parts of the report, which is a disappointment.

Madam, I must say that the problem of waste is a very big one. At one time, I was speaking to an executive of a water utility company while we were looking at some stagnant water containing all sorts of things you can think of. He retorted to me and said we were going to drink the water at the end of the programme. Really, I never thought of it that way. 

Waste is a very big problem. In fact, God made things in such a way that in the rainy season, all the waste of people who live in the bush ends up in rivers and we gladly drink water from the same rivers. Therefore, we must be very careful with the issue of waste because it is not as simple as people are trying to put it. It is a very entailing issue. I can go on, but time does not allow me to.

I want to tell Hon. Musenge, even though he is not in the House, that disease is not the same as smell. Even where things are very fine in our hospitals, there is a smell that comes out even when surgery is being conducted, but that does not mean disease. Most of the things that cause diseases do not even smell. You will not smell TB, measles or even cholera germs. Therefore, it is not correct to liken a particular smell to a disease. It is sad that people are sending false messages to the nation. It is important that they tell the truth to the nation.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform Hon. Musenge Mwenya that a hospital is a place for ‘bad’ things, if I may use that word, such as sores and other contaminations. As such, it is very difficult to kill the smell that goes with these issues. He must be ready to experience some bad smell when he goes to the hospital. It is something you cannot avoid.

Madam Speaker, I do not agree with what the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central said regarding the disposal of drugs. There is a system in place for the disposal of dugs. If you went to Medical Stores Limited, you would find a lot of drugs ready for disposal. However, there are guidelines to follow as to which facilities to use when these drugs are being disposed of. Granted there was a case in Mansa where we did things wrongly. The drugs were buried and people exhumed those drugs. This lesson has been learnt and we all know that it is not the correct way of disposing of drugs.

Madam Speaker, allow me to correct the misconception that a person suffering from TB can spread the disease at all times. It is not correct. Spreading of this disease can only happen in the first two weeks. After two weeks of medication, such a person is not a danger to the community. People should not isolate such a person and there is no need for that person to be in the hospital.

We are trying to make wards for TB patients because of the new problem that we are faced with. We are now faced with what we call ‘resistant TB’ and ‘extreme resistant TB’. If identified, these are the cases that need isolation. However, if it is just ordinary TB and the person is on medication, that person is safe to live with.

Madam Speaker, the information about incinerators is very good. We will take a very serious visit to most of these facilities so that we can correct some of the issues noticed by your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank your Committee for its work. We appreciate the information that they have given us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Kaingu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of this House. I also wish to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion, and indeed, your Committee for producing a very good report. I will give a synopsis of this report as it is appearing before me.

Madam Speaker, it is evidently clear that the Department of Community Development or, indeed, my ministry is the only vehicle that can reduce poverty in this country. It is also true that if the co-operating partners could work with us, the Government, through this ministry, would reduce the poverty levels from where they are today, to about 5 to 10 per cent.

Madam Speaker, on Page 5 of the report, if you look at the programmes that are offered by the Government in trying to alleviate poverty in our country, you will find out that they are very good. Most of these programmes have been copied by our neighbouring countries like Mozambique where your Committee went.

Madam Speaker, this country has come up with very good interventions in poverty reduction and alleviation. The Women in Development Programme, which is actually called the Gender in Development Programme, is one that assists men and women to start up projects which can alleviate poverty. However, the women have been more responsive to the programme. That is why, today, the programme is called the Women Empowerment Programme.

Madam Speaker, on the Non-Formal Education and Skills Training Programme, I will say that for those who have read the report, they will see that there was a terrible misinformation when the Report on Education, Science and Technology was presented on Wednesday, in this House, that this Government has no policy on non-formal education. To the contrary, the policy is there in my ministry. However, we are now transferring the policy to the Ministry of Education. It is important that the Government promotes non-formal education as one way of mitigating poverty levels.

Let me now talk about the Food Security Pack Programme. This programme was started in 2000 and because we did not have the capacity as a Government, we gave it to the Programme Against Malnutrition (PAM). However, now that the ministry has the capacity, the programme has been taken back to the ministry.

Madam Speaker, I would like to correct the statement that was made by Hon. Nkombo about the late delivery of farming inputs. Hon. Nkombo must know, if he has forgotten, that we have just changed the Budget Cycle this year. Therefore, the problem that was noticed when your Committee was out there was because of the problem of the Budget Cycle.

This year, we were privileged to have had a one-off assistance from the ADB for the Food Security Pack Programme. The normal money that we receive for the programme is K10 billion and when the Government received that money, it quickly bought the inputs which were distributed. Unfortunately, in the previous situation that the hon. Member referred to, the money from the ADB came very late. Therefore, for obvious reasons, the inputs were delivered to the beneficiaries very late. It is a pity that there is no time to shed more light on this issue. 

Madam, let me quickly go to the observations. There is no rift between the Government and the NGOs. In fact, hon. Members of this House will recall that it enacted legislation which will help the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services regulate and monitor the works of the NGOs as well as work closely with them. However, instead of the co-operating partners supporting the mushrooming of NGOs, they should actually work with us. They should give us more resources so that we can be able to reduce the poverty levels.

The hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, who is on the Floor right now, has been seen distributing cheques in areas where poverty levels are very high like the Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kaingu: I must say that the hon. Minister was on the Floor of the House giving a ministerial statement where he urged hon. Members to come to the ministry and give the names of clubs which should be empowered using the K5 billion allocated. However, some hon. Members have not been proactive and that is why I go out there to sensitise the women in their constituencies because they are not doing the job themselves.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, if I am going to an area and there are cheques for that area, is there any harm in me carrying them? I do not think so. I can only urge hon. Members to be proactive and work with us. I do not know whether Hon. Matongo is here because he will tell you that he got cheques from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and this goes for the other hon. Members who have been proactive. The other one I can remember is Hon. Kasongo.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say that all programmes in the ministry are demand driven. If you are going to sit there and think that I will come to you and ask for women’s clubs and that I will bring farming inputs, then you are wasting your time because these things are demand driven.

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, I wish I had more time, but I would like to say to your Committee that, I think they went on a wild goose chase by going to Mozambique to learn about poverty because this Government has better programmes on poverty. We have not even touched the Department of Social Welfare where we have very good mitigating programmes such as the Social Cash Transfer Programme. We have not touched the public welfare assistant schemes and adopting of children. There are many schemes that we can use to mitigate poverty. It is a pity that your Government does not have resources that you think it has. If we had the resources, truly, with the programmes lined up on page 5 of the report, we would have done very well. 

Madam Speaker, Malawi, which copied the Food Security Pack Programme from this Government, is doing very well in food production. I wish your Committee had gone to Malawi instead of Mozambique.

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, seeing that there is not much time, with these few words, I rest my case.

 I thank you.

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, in winding up debate, allow me to say that the 59 per cent of the 11.7 million Zambians living in poverty was drawn from the CSO.

The Food Security Pack Programme is a Government driven programme under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. I agree with some of the contributions to the debate by some hon. Members who said that there is confusion in this programme. I would like to say that the confusion is on the part of the Government in that the officers they have employed to undertake the programme, when they are summoned to appear before your Committee, are unable to articulate issues because the Government is busy employing people who are not qualified, or shall I say cadres, in certain positions.

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, allow me to, also, say that the Government is not committed to decentralisation, but to getting donor money which it does not apply. The content of our report is a result of the submissions made by witnesses who appeared before your Committee and among them were the Ministries of Local Government and Housing, Health, Community Development and Social Services and other stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I would like to thank all those who have contributed to the debate on this Motion together with those who have silently supported it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

____________

The House adjourned at 1251 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 7th July, 2010.