DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 19th October, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President and Learned Minister of Justice, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, MP, Minister of Finance and National Planning, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, Tuesday, 19th October to Friday, 29th October, 2010.

Thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

2010/2011 FARMING SEASON FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Kazonga): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to give a ministerial statement on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) for the 2010/2011 farming season. In doing so, I will firstly give a brief background to the programme and then move to the details of the preparations for the 2010/2011 farming season.

Madam Speaker, in 2002, the Government introduced the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) with a view to improving access to inputs by small-scale farmers. The other major objective of the programme was to enhance the participation and competitiveness of the private sector in the supply and distribution of agricultural inputs in a timely and effective manner. The implementation modalities of the programme remained unchanged until 2009. The Government, therefore, restructured the FSP in 2009 with a view of improving its operational efficiency and expanding the sphere of support to the farming community. 

Madam Speaker, as part of the revision, the programme was renamed the FISP. Other notable changes made to the programme included the incorporation of Camp Agricultural Committees in the identification and selection of the target beneficiaries and reduction of the input pack size from 8 x 50 kg bags of fertiliser and one 20 kg bag of maize seed to 4 x 50 kg bags of fertiliser and one 10 kg bag of maize seed.

Madam Speaker, the revision of the FSP is a contributing factor to the exceptional achievements that were recorded in the 2009/2010 farming season …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: … when the country recorded a bumper harvest of 2,795,483 million metric tonnes of maize grain. It is the conviction of the Government that the high maize production was as a result of the reforms that were undertaken under the once low performing FSP and improved extension provision in addition to other factors.

Procurement and Distribution of the Inputs for the 2010/2011 Farming Season

Madam Speaker, allow me now to inform this august House about the procurement process and distribution of the inputs during the 2009/2010 agricultural season. In the 2009/2010 agricultural season, the Government procured and distributed 106,836 metric tonnes of fertiliser and 5,441.9 metric tonnes of maize seed. Out of the above stated fertiliser quantity, 6,836 metric tonnes were donated by the Japanese Government, under the grant assistance for the underprivileged farmers in Zambia. The total inputs that were procured assisted 534,000 small-scale farmers countrywide.

Madam Speaker, with respect to the preparations for the 2010/2011 farming season, the Government has increased the quantity of inputs, under the programme, from 106,836 metric tonnes of fertiliser in the 2009/2010 farming season in order to further increase agricultural production. This is, indeed, what the Government is aiming at achieving. 

Madam Speaker, in terms of seed, the Government has procured 8,790 metric tonnes of maize seed and 30 metric tonnes of rice seed. The inputs have been procured and delivered to the district centres in two lots. The first lot comprised the procurement and distribution of 128,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser and this was divided as follows; 64,025 metric tonnes of basal dressing, 63,975 metric tonnes of top dressing and 6,392.5 metric tonnes of maize seed. Therefore, there was an addition, this year, of 30 metric tonnes of rice seed which was distributed as follows:

District            Allocation (MT)

Chama                3

Kaputa                3

Kasama            3

Mpulungu            3

Nakonde            3

Kalabo                6

Mongu                3

Sesheke            3

Shang’ombo            3

Total                30

Madam speaker, each of these districts got 3 metric tonnes of rice seed. Kalabo District was given 6 metric tonnes as rice seed. The initial allocation was intended to cover 638,500 maize farmers and 3,000 rice farmers. The second lot consisted of 50,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser and 2,397.5 metric tonnes of maize seed to benefit about 250,000 farmers. This gives a total of 888,500 farmers to benefit from the FISP during the 2010/2011 farming season.    

Madam Speaker, in line with the programme objective of building the capacity of the private sector in agricultural inputs distribution, the ministry procured fertiliser from three suppliers. The procurement was through direct sourcing from the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and competitive bidding for Nyiombo Investments Limited and Omnia Small-Scale Limited. The NCZ was awarded a contract on direct sourcing to kick start the production of fertiliser after the rehabilitation of the Nitrogen-Phosphorous-Potassium (NPK) Plant. The quantities awarded to respective suppliers were as follows:

Supplier                Quantity             
(Metric Tonnes)        

    NCZ                    20,000 of Compound D

    Nyiombo Investments MTD        63,779  of both Compound D and Urea    

    Omnia Small Scale LTD        44,221 of both Compound D and Urea

Madam Speaker, the tendering for the supply of fertiliser was done in the month of March, 2010 and the selective tendering for the supply of maize seed was done in April, 2010. The ministry procured the corresponding initial lot of 6,392.50 metric tonnes from six seed suppliers namely, ZAMSEED, MRI Seed Zambia Limited, SEEDCO Zambia Limited, PANNAR Seed Zambia Limited, Farmers Barn Limited and Pioneer Dupont Zambia Limited. The 30 metric tonnes of rice were acquired through the Zambia Agricultural Research Institute (ZARI).

Madam Speaker, in the second allocation, the ministry was given a waiver to source the additional fertiliser from the two private companies that were successful during the first tendering. This exclusive approach was used in order for the programme to catch up with time because normal tendering would have prolonged the procurement process which would have impacted negatively on the timeliness of the distribution exercise. In view of this, the suppliers were offered tenders as follows:

Supplier                Quantity             
(Metric Tonnes)
    
    Nyiombo Investments MTD        28,257 of both Compound D and Urea

Omnia Small-Scale LTD        21,743 of both Compound D and Urea.

The tendering for the supply of the second fertiliser consignment was done in June, 2010. The related additional maize seed was also selectively tendered for in July, 2010. The contract quantity awarded to each respective seed company was proportional to the demand from the districts. 

Madam Speaker, allow me to update this august House on the progress made, so far, on the distribution of inputs countrywide. The procurement and distribution of agricultural inputs for the 2010/2011 farming season has been done in a timely manner. By the end of September, 2010, about 90 per cent of the procured fertiliser from the initial tender was already delivered to the district central points. 

However, the biggest hurdle the programme has faced, so far, especially arising from the increased maize procurement by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) and procurement of inputs, is limitation in storage capacity in the various districts. 

Madam Speaker, in view of the storage capacity limitation, the ministry envisaged to create space by early commencement of the distribution exercise. All the basic documents required for the implementation have already been put in place in all the districts. 

Madam Speaker, the farmer distribution and contribution that will be made in accordance with our programme for the 2010/2011 agricultural season has been pegged at K50, 000 per 50 kg bag of fertiliser and K80,000 per 10 kg bag of either maize or rice seed. 

Madam Speaker, in order to make sure that inputs are supplied to deserving beneficiary farmers, the ministry has already distributed documentation for the selection of beneficiary farmers. The distribution of documents began in the month of August, 2010 to ensure that identification of farmers was done early. A good number of districts have reached an advanced stage in the identification and approval of the beneficiary farmers. 

Madam Speaker, the ministry expects that all inputs would have been delivered to the district central points by the end of October, 2010. If the farming community responds positively, the distribution exercise should be concluded within November, 2010.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s good wisdom, does he not think that the so-called bumper harvest is under-estimated and that Zambia is capable of producing more taking into consideration the fact that the soil is acidic and the production is less than 2 tonnes per hectare whereas other people are producing 6 tonnes per hectare. Does he not feel that we need to do more to our soils to ensure that we get the actual numbers of production for this country?

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, indeed, the bumper harvest recorded in the 2009/2010 farming season has indicated that Zambia has the potential to produce more. The Government is committed to ensuring that the country continuously improves in this sector. As part of improvement and in order to contribute more to the crop harvest, the Government is encouraging conservation farming so that small-scale farmers can even contribute more to the bumper harvest that we experienced in the 2009/2010 farming season. The potential, therefore, has already been evidenced and we are committed to improving it further.

As a Government, we believe in continuous improvement. Based on the lessons that we have learnt, in the last farming season, we hope to improve on the weaknesses identified and by so doing, we hope that we can achieve more.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister assure this House that by the end of October, all farmers will be paid their dues by the FRA in order to enable them purchase new fertiliser inputs in November, 2010.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my ministerial statement on the FRA and our crop marketing system, last week, the farmers are being paid. We used to release K80 billion per week, but two weeks ago, this amount was increased to K150 billion to be released per week. 

Madam Speaker, we are seeing a corresponding increment in the number of farmers who are being paid. Just yesterday, I was in Chongwe and was able to see that improvement. Therefore, I can assure this House that all the farmers who sold maize to the FRA will be paid what is due to them. The Government is committed to ensuring that it pays its farmers and this process is going on well. If there are any hitches, we, as a Government, are there to sort them out. 

Madam Speaker, as regards deadlines, I cannot say anything on that now. However, just by using simple arithmetic, as I indicated, the farmers are still owed about K320 billion. If K150 billion, which will be released this week, was subtracted from the K320 billion, we should be able to finish paying the farmers who sold their maize to the FRA within the next couple of weeks. 

Madam Speaker, I also need to explain further that because of the extension of the faming season, we are bound to get new farmers who need to be paid. However, based on the numbers that we had, we are progressing well and shall pay all the farmers who sold their maize to the FRA.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the FSP was established for the purpose of empowering small-scale farmers to stand on their own. Could the hon. Minister indicate how many of the beneficiaries of the FSP and its successor, the FISP, have graduated because they are now able to finance their agricultural activities.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, we do not have any information on how many small-scale farmers have graduated. There are difficulties in graduation because of a number of challenges that are being faced. The farmers have also had difficulties to migrate or to be weaned off. As a Government, we are taking into consideration these factors so that as we continuously improve on the programme, we can address some of these challenges.

Madam, we are aware that on a small-scale, despite not having the actual numbers, some farmers have given a chance to new entrants in the programme. They say that since they would have benefited for two farming seasons, this time, they can give a chance to the new entrants. Therefore, as a Government, we are aware about the problems of graduation or farmers being weaned off and are addressing the issues that surround that particular limitation.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, in the light of the maize being uncompetitive in the region, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, what he is doing to ensure that, eventually, our maize is competitive in the region so that we can export it because there is no need to grow so much maize which we cannot sell across the borders.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, as a Government, we are concerned about that matter. It is for this reason that we are taking measures to reduce the production costs that our farmers are incurring. Through this process, we should be able to have our maize competitive in the region.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, the three tonnes of fertiliser for rice growers in Mongu District equates to sixty by 50 kg bags. Could the hon. Minister indicate whether he considers this to be sufficient? In addition, why has he left out Lukulu and Senanga districts which also grow rice?

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, as indicated, this is the first time we are incorporating rice into the programme. So, we need to pilot this particular aspect of rice growing. We shall learn lessons from the pilot and later on, extend to other areas. Indeed, the seven areas that I mentioned are not the only ones where farmers need to grow rice. Since we are starting this for the first time, we needed to select some districts in which to pilot it. It is also based on the information on demand that came from the districts. Therefore, we are aware that there are more districts that would require rice seed.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, much as the initiative that is being made by this Government is appreciated, I would like to find out if financing the farmers is the only way to increase productivity or there are other alternatives which the Government can utilise in terms of policy issues that will ensure that there is high productivity in the agriculture sector.

 Dr Kazonga:  Madam Speaker, as acknowledged by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha, it is not only financing which is a problem, but also other aspects we are looking into in order to improve productivity. Some of these aspects are improvements in technologies in use. We also need more extension services to go to our small-scale farmers. Issues of using certified seeds and encouraging the small-scale farmers to use certified seed is part of increasing productivity because the good harvest starts with quality seed. Therefore, there are a number of measures that are being taken into consideration in order to improve productivity. It is not just financing.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, first, of all, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for his statement.

Madam Speaker, my question is on the process of identification. I would like to find out what the ministry is doing to ensure gender equity in the allocation of fertiliser to the beneficiaries. Is there a mechanism to ensure that, at least, 50 per cent of the women access this fertiliser?  

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, indeed, these are some of the considerations that the selection committees are looking at as they disburse these inputs. They are also supposed to look at the aspects of gender. Therefore, these committees will ensure that the aspect of gender is looked at seriously in addition to other things. The aspect of gender is something that is being taken care of and the female farmers can be encouraged that the programme will support them.

 I thank I you, Madam Speaker. 

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the ministry is working hard to reduce the cost of doing business in the agricultural sector, is it possible to encourage some farmers to use other methods such as the use of cow dung as manure instead of using fertiliser, especially for those that do not want to use fertiliser? Nevertheless, still be allowed to procure seed from the Government. At the moment, if one gets fertiliser, they do not get the seed, but some farmers …

Madam Deputy Speaker: You have asked your question.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, indeed, there are some farmers who are interested in using other means other than this chemical fertiliser. We know that there are some who are particularly interested in using cow dung and we are not going to discourage them. We shall encourage them to apply it because it is good for the soil. They can use other methods for soil conservation purposes so that farmers do not just have access to the chemical fertiliser, but also contribute to the bumper harvest.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Speaker, what rationale did the ministry use to give rice seed to Kasama instead of Malole Constituency in Mungwi District where rice is grown?

Mr Mwamba: Yes!

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier on, this is a pilot project and it is difficult to capture every district. Kasama was chosen because of the good wetlands there that make it possible to grow this kind of crop that requires a lot of water. There is plenty of water in Kasama. Later on, it will be possible to extend to Mungwi and other areas that have been left out.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, why has the Government not considered including agricultural lime as part of the package to farmers whose soil has been destroyed by fertiliser?

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, in our current arrangement, agricultural lime is not part of the package. However, we encourage farmers to apply agricultural lime in a number of areas. This can be done at individual level, in addition to what the Government has given. The Government gives something to begin with, but other considerations can be made by individual farmers.
 
I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Madam Speaker, in view of the answer given by the hon. Minister that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) is releasing about K150 billion a week, how many weeks are remaining to release the other K150 billion?

Madam Deputy Speaker: I thought that question had already been asked.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, how much are we supporting the NCZ in relation to foreign suppliers on the fertiliser issue and how much is the cost benefit to this nation?

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my ministerial statement, we considered the NCZ for the tender instead of having a competitive tender with other suppliers. This was part of ensuring that we develop capacity and also assist the company to continue operating. At the moment, only one plant was used to produce 20,000 metric tonnes of D-Compound. 

As a Government, we shall continue to assist this company whenever it is necessary. Currently, after discussions and the Technical Committee has done its work, we will see how the NCZ can be supported in as far as competing with other private fertiliser companies is concerned.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives confirm to this House whether the distribution of inputs and collection of maize is only restricted to MMD cadres?

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for Kasama Central for that political question which has the following political answer.

Ms Lundwe laughed.

Dr Kazonga: The MMD Government is there to deliver to the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: In as far as storage facilities and transportation of either inputs or the maize from the bumper harvest that we have this year are concerned, many measures are now being implemented. None of these measures asks for political party membership. Therefore, that is just an imagination by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central.

Ms Lundwe: It is irrelevant!

Interruptions

Dr Kazonga: As far as this Government is concerned, it looks at the capacity and capabilities of those who need to provide the services to the Government through different institutions such as the FRA.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: But you refused to give me!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

RAILWAY COMPANIES ESTABLISHMENT

102. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a)    what the establishments of the following companies had been in 1980, 1990 and 2009:

(i)    Tanzania Zambia Railways;

(ii)    Railway Systems of Zambia; and

(iii)    Zambia Railways;

(b)    what the present establishments were; and

(c)    how many of the employees were expatriates and how many were women in the period above.

Mr Mwamba: I going to apply!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, the establishment of the Tanzania Zambia Railways (TAZARA) in 1980, 1990 and 2009 was as follows:

Year    Establishment

1980    7,036

1990    6,549

2009    2,943

Madam, the House may wish to note that the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ) was not in existence between 1980 and 1990. However, its establishment in 2009 was at 839 employees.

The establishment of the Zambia Railways Limited in 1980, 1990 and 2009 was:

Year    Establishment

1980    8,257

1990    8,419

2009     27

2010     27

The present establishment company by company is:

Company                    Year

TAZARA    2,889

Railway Systems of Zambia     858

Zambia Railways Limited    27    

Madam Speaker, the number of women and expatriate employees at TAZARA was as follows:

        Year     Expatriates        Women

        1980    3            No data

        1990    Nil            No data

        2009    Nil            No data

        2010    Nil            data being compiled

The number of women and expatriate employees in the period at the Railway Systems of Zambia was as follows:

        Year    No. of Expatriates        No. of Women

        2009    9                62
        2010    8                64

The number of women and expatriate employees at Zambia Railways Limited was as follows:

        Year    No of Expatriates     No. of Women

        1980    17            150

        1990    19            502

        2009    Nil    7

        2010    Nil    7

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, looking at the difference between the establishment of the Zambia Railways and the RSZ, is this a clear indication that the railway system in Zambia has totally collapsed?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, it has not collapsed because both TAZARA and the RSZ are operational.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how he perceives TAZARA, the RSZ and Zambia Railways to be efficient and effective.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, we are looking at human resources here according to the question. I do not know how the hon. Member is looking at efficiency and effectiveness from the human resource point of view. If it is other operations, again, he has to be specific about exactly how he wants to gauge or assess the efficiency or effectiveness of the railway system in the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister indicate to this House what he attributes the decrease in the number of employees, particularly at TAZARA from 7,036 employees to the current figure of 2,700. I would also like him to comment on the reduction from 8,419 at the RSZ or its predecessor Zambia Railways to a meagre twenty-seven. What does he attribute this decline to?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, with regard to the RSZ, the reduction is simply due to the concession. What we have now is the Zambia Railways Limited which is a holding company. As regards TAZARA, the reduction is simply due to cutting down on the cost of operations, over the years, so that the blotted labour force is brought to a sizeable level which will make the company operate a little more effectively. 

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, in the past, passengers using the Zambia Railways used to travel from Livingstone to Kitwe in three days but, now, with the RSZ, it is taking one month and three days. I would like the hon. Minister to tell us the challenges this company is facing.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, clearly, the hon. Member has his facts wrong. There is no passenger train that takes one month and three days on our railway system. Those are probably his imaginary passenger trains.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

ANNUAL ROAD AND RAILWAY CARGO

103. Mr Chanda asked the Minister of Communications and Transport how much cargo is moved by the following means annually:

(i)    road;
(ii)    RSZ; and
(iii)    TAZARA.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, it is a challenge to compile figures of the amounts of cargo carried by road because of too many players on the market. 

The RSZ transported cargo annually as follows between 2006 and 2009:

    Year        Metric tonnes

2006    1,147,580 

2007    862,833 

2008    892,416 

2009    694,968 

Madam Speaker, TAZARA transported cargo between 2006 and 2009 annually as follows:

Year        Metric tonnes

2006    555,291

2007    538,530

2008    527,625

2009    383,055

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, it is common knowledge that a huge load of cargo is transported by road. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the policy direction is. Is it to the use the railway systems or roads.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the policy of the Government is to utilise both the road and railway systems. With regard to the railway system, time and again, we have reported that we have plans to construct more railway lines, for example, from Chingola to Jimbe, Kasama or Nseluka to Mpulungu, Mchinji to Chipata, which is already operational, Kafue to Lion’s Den in Zimbabwe and Livingstone to Katimamulilo. These are the plans we have, as a Government, to expand the railway system so that, as a landlocked country, we can transport cargo to the ports in the most cost-effective possible manner.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Madam Speaker, will the hon. Minister explain the reason for the significant decline in the tonnage that was carried by TAZARA vis-à-vis the tonnage that was consistent in the years 2006 to 2008 against the 380,000 metric tonnes in 2009.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, clearly, the reduction in the tonnage had to do with operational problems at TAZARA, the lack of recapitalisation over the years resulting in, for example, dilapidation in various equipment including locomotives, wagons and even the railway line itself. 

It is in this line that, as a Government, we have taken steps to address the problems at TAZARA. At this point, allow me to just highlight some of the measures that we have taken to address the problems of TAZARA, through the 14th Protocol that was signed between the People’s Republic of China and the Zambian Government to address the problems of TAZARA which are as follows. 

(i)    supply of six new mainline locomotives which are not less than 3,000 hp power and these will be put into operation immediately;

(ii)    funding for the rehabilitation of six main line locomotives and supply of ninety wagons to be put into operation immediately; 

(iii)    renewal of three locomotives to be returned to the manufacturers for locomotive overhaul; 

(iv)    three shunting locomotives will be rehabilitated;

(v)    four gantry cranes will be rehabilitated;

(vi)    one rescue crane will be rehabilitated;

(vii)    bearings to upgrade 1,200 old wagons will be supplied; and

(viii)    cement will be supplied for the production of 30,000 pieces of concrete sleepers to be manufactured at TAZARA’s concrete sleeper plant. 

In addition to all these, there will be training of mechanical and other engineering staff. 

So, Madam Speaker, these are measures we have taken, as a Government, to address the problems of TAZARA emanating from poor recapitalisation over the years.

These are measures that are being undertaken currently.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, may the hon. Minister inform the House what economic benefit accrues to the Zambian Government by extensive usage of our roads through transportation of heavy and abnormal loads that are brought into the country by various companies. We would like to know the economic benefit derived from there which we cannot get if the RSZ was used to transport heavy loads which are not only a hazard, but a danger to the roads and …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! 

You are debating.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the Government is planning on utilisation of both modes of transportation. We realise that there is a lot of wear and tear as a result of the heavy trucks that utilise our roads. Clearly, that is why we are making all these efforts to ensure that railway transportation is made more effective and efficient. That is the more reason we have engaged the People’s Republic of China Government in the signing of the 14th Protocol so that TAZARA can become more operational. In addition, that is why we are engaging the RSZ so that there is more recapitalisation of the line and other equipment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, from the figures given, the amount of goods transported by both the RSZ and TAZARA is going down. In the case of the RSZ, from 1,140,000 metric tonnes in 2006 to 694,000 metric tonnes in 2009 and TAZARA, from 550,000 metric tonnes in 2006 to 383,000 in 2009. Would you say that this mode of transport is unable to compete with road transport? In any case, whatever they are doing, they are going down because it takes too long to transport goods using this mode of transport and, eventually, it is going to be a dying industry.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, it is definitely not a dying industry, but an industry with great potential. What has happened, over the years, because of lack of recapitalisation of wagons, locomotives and the line itself, there has been a lot of dilapidation and clearly TAZARA and the RSZ have been addressing the issues of recapitalisation and revamping the operations of the various aspects of the RSZ in the past years. That is the reason we are seeing a decline in the tonnage on both lines. However, we are very confident that, with the recapitalisation initiatives which are being undertaken now, we are going to see an increase in the tonnage and, eventually, an in the competitiveness of the railway system against the road sector.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, according to what the hon. Minister has told us, there is dilapidation, reduction in manpower, reduction in the load and general hopelessness in the railways. 

Is it not time that the Government took a drastic decision to deal with the problems in this sector, especially that when the system was once managed by Hon. Hachipuka, who is within this House, there was vibrancy and prosperity in Kabwe and within the entire system in the country? Why should we continue along the current lines of management of the railway system when we have sufficient brain power …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is debating.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, I think my question has been heard.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the concessioning of the RSZ has only been in place for about six years now. A lot of challenges have been faced by the concessionaire in terms of recapitalisation and addressing various aspects of the company’s operations. I, therefore, do not think that this is the time to take drastic measures. However, we are currently engaging the concessionaire to find ways of addressing the various challenges of the company’s operations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, may the hon. Minister confirm that the Government is unable to take over the operations of the RSZ because breaching the concession agreement will result in it losing a lot of money. 

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Kalomo Central knows that abrogating or breaking a legal agreement clearly results in penalties. It is as simple as that. Therefore, it is important that as we identify the problems in the operations of the RSZ, we engage the concessionaire in addressing these problems and this is what we are doing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

SECOND-HAND VEHICLES’ DUTY

104.    Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    how much money the Government raised as duty on second-hand vehicles imported in the country from 2006 to 2009; 

(b)    how many vehicles were imported in the above period; and

(c)    whether the Government had intentions of reducing duty on imported used vehicles.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Madam Speaker, the total revenue collected from second-hand vehicles imported into the country during the period 2006 to 2009 was as follows:

Year             Amount
                                           (K’ billion) 

2006              50.7 

2007                  90.1 

2008                                     111.6 

2009                                   133.01 

Madam Speaker, a total of 144,663 second-hand vehicles were imported in the period under review and the breakdown is as follows:

Year                No. of vehicles

2006            18,156

2007                26,885

2008                37,468

2009                32,154

Madam Speaker, any adjustments to the duty structure on imported vehicles will be done based on the Government’s fiscal considerations. Since this House approves tax rates, hon. Members shall be duly informed at the time adjustments to duty rates will be considered.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, why was there a decline in the importation of vehicles in 2009? Is it because the duty went up or people were just unable to bring vehicles into the country?

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Madam Speaker, I think it is common knowledge that, during the first part of 2009, there was a global financial crisis which resulted in a depression in general trade and I think one of the areas that was impacted on was the importation of vehicles.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

DOMESTIC BORROWING

105. Mr Mwango asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what the Government domestic borrowing was from 2007 to 2009, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Phiri): Madam Speaker, one of the options the Government uses to bridge the gap between revenue and expenditure in the National Budget is domestic borrowing. Each year, domestic borrowing, as a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP), is carefully determined by the Government. Therefore, the Government’s domestic borrowing from 2007 to 2009 was as follows:

Year            Amount

2007            526.98

2008             811.57 

2009           1,676.28

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, how does the Government hope to liquidate this debt?

Mr Phiri: Madam Speaker, the servicing of this debt is on-going and I want to confirm that domestic borrowing, just like external borrowing, is liquidated on an annual basis. I stated very clearly that the reason we borrow internally and, indeed, externally, is to finance the gap between revenue and expenditure.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, under domestic borrowing, there are Treasury bills and Government bonds, which is understandable as interest is paid on them. However, in addition, there is the non-payment of suppliers …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Use the microphone.

Mr Milupi turned towards his microphone.

Mr Milupi: … and pensioners who are not paid on time. Is there any effort that the Government is making to ensure that suppliers and pensioners are paid for them to be able to increase the value of their money rather than keeping it as domestic debt by the Government?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, regarding the arrears that the hon. Member referred to, there has, indeed, been a programme to dismantle arrears to suppliers of goods and service and I believe substantial progress has been made in that respect. As for pensions, I believe that the Government is almost up to date with its contributions to the pension fund. However, irrespective of its relationship with the Government, the public pension fund has some financial difficulties. This is why, under the 2011 Budget, we have provided for more than K300 billion to assist the fund reduce these difficulties and, thereby accelerate the rate at which pensioners are being paid.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

CEEC LOANS

106. Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a)    what the total amount of loans disbursed by the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) from its inception to date was;

(b)    how much money had been paid back; and

(c)    how much money had been loaned to staff at CEEC and their associates.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, from inception to date, the CEEC has disbursed a total of K111, 483,301,044.11.

 Madam Speaker, the tenure of a loan for the funded projects ranges between eighteen months to sixty months and promoters are given a grace period of between six months to one year during which period they are only required to pay interest. The majority of the projects funded are in this period and, so far, a total of K8,069,050,963.97 has been paid back. These are principle and interest amounts as at 31st August, 2010.

Madam Speaker, there is no CEEC staff member, at the moment, who has accessed the empowerment fund.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lumba: Madam Speaker, the last part of the question was also seeking to find out whether associates of members of staff of the CEEC were loaned money from the fund? Can the hon. Minister confirm if that happened? 

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I do not have information that can confirm whether or not the associates of CEEC members received any money from the fund. This programme does not discriminate against any Zambian from accessing the fund because it is for all Zambians. If a good proposal is made and the CEEC assess its ability to pay back, it assists.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister agree with me that this programme is an exercise in futility because only K8 billion was recovered from the K112 billion that was released, and yet this is a facility that is supposed to be a revolving fund? 

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I stated in my response that there is a grace period given to a number of projects. This is because of the nature of the projects which involve, among other things, the construction of infrastructure and importation of equipment. However, the K8 billion mentioned in the response is the interest that was paid by those that owe the CEEC money.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, why are forms bearing serial numbers collected from Lusaka when they are rejected in other districts such as Mwense?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the CEEC has provided the banks with forms so that they can easily be accessed by the public. For those that want to embark on big projects requiring a lot of money, they are allowed to get forms directly from the CEEC. Therefore, I appeal to the hon. Member to take note of the system that we are using to get these forms to the public.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE FINANCIAL INTELLIGENCE CENTRE BILL, 2010

(Debate resumed)

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, when business adjourned on Friday, 15th October, 2010, I was saying that while the Immigration Department plays a critical role in the combating of various predicate offences such as human trafficking, which give rise to money laundering activities, the department is not included on the list of law enforcement agencies provided for in the Bill. This, in your Committee’s view, is an anomaly which requires immediate redress.

Further, Madam Speaker, some stakeholders expressed concern that Section 53 could be interpreted as conferring worldwide jurisdiction in terms of application of the Act. This could make the law difficult to implement. Therefore, there is a need to recourse the provision. With these few adjustments, your Committee supports the Bill. 

Finally, allow me to pay tribute to you, Madam, for your guidance and the Office of the Clerk for the excellent services rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I have taken note of the various suggestions made. I wish to thank the House for this overwhelming support. 

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 3rd November, 2010.

THE PROHIBITION AND PREVENTION OF MONEY LAUNDERING (AMENDMENT) BILL

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 Madam Speaker, the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering (Amendment) Bill, repeals the provisions of the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act of 2001 which requires supervisory authorities and reporting entities to disclose information of suspicion of money laundering to the Anti-money Laundering Investigations Unit. This is in view of the provisions of the Financial Intelligence Centre Bill, 2010 which establishes the Financial Intelligence Centre as the sole designated institution which will be responsible for matters dealing with such disclosures.

Further, this Bill redefines the functions the Anti-money Laundering Investigations Unit in relation to the unit’s function to receive disclosures of suspected money laundering activities as the Financial Intelligence Centre will deal with all issues pertaining to suspected money laundering activities.

Madam Speaker, in addition, this Bill redefines money laundering and proceeds of crime in order to conform to international standards relating to laws on anti-money laundering and to harmonise its provisions with the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime, 2010, which was recently enacted by this House. This Bill also extends the application of the law to money laundering acts done outside Zambia. 

Madam Speaker, this Bill prohibits a person who knows or has reason to suspect that any authorised officer has commenced an investigation from disclosing to any other person any information relating to the investigation where such disclosure may prejudice the investigation.

Madam Speaker, this Bill is progressive and not controversial. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of this august House to wholeheartedly support it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to present the report on the findings of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human rights and Gender Matters on deliberations regarding the Bill under discussion.

Madam Speaker, let me start by stating that the objects of the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering (Amendment) Bill are to:

(i)    repeal the provisions relating to the disclosure of information of suspicion of money laundering by supervisory authorities and reporting entities; 

(ii)    to re-define the functions of the Anti-Money Laundering Investigations Unit; and

(iii)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam, during its deliberations, your Committee was alive to the fact that, following the recent enactment of various pieces of legislation such as the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act, the Public Interest Disclosure (Protection of Whistleblowers) Act and the Proposed Financial Intelligence Centre Bill, 2010, it became necessary to amend the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act in order to inter alias focus the Anti-money Laundering Unit on the investigation of financial and other business transactions suspected to be part of the money laundering offences and to eliminate the overlaps in oversight institutional jurisdiction. Therefore, apart from some mundane proposals, this Bill is not controversial.

Accordingly, most stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the amendments to the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act. They, however, raised a number of issues aimed at further improving the Act. Allow me to briefly highlight these areas of concern, Madam.

Firstly, while it is commendable that the Government has decided to amend the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act in order to address some of its shortcomings, there is a need for a comprehensive as opposed to piecemeal review of the Act in order to mordernise it. For example, the Bill refers to the proceeds of crime. However, the definition of proceeds of crime is not harmonised with the definition in the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act. 

Madam the Bill also refers to proceeds of illegal activity. Your Committee notes that the international based practice is to link money laundering to serious offences. It is aware that the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act was a definition of serious offences which meets minimum international standards and could be substituted in the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act.

Further, Madam Speaker, the Bill does not include amendments to extend the extra-territorial jurisdiction of the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act with respect to foreign nationals. Currently, the Act only extends to crimes committed by a foreigner on an aircraft or ship registered in Zambia. The implication of this limitation is that Zambian authorities will not be able to prosecute a foreigner in Zambia, who committed, outside Zambia, an act that would constitute a money laundering offence in Zambia. 

In this regard, Zambia would inadvertently become a safe haven for fugitives of justice from other countries.

Madam Speaker, there was also concern that the definition of ‘Authorised Officer’ in Section 2 did not include a police officer despite the Zambia Police Service being the leading law enforcement agency on behalf of the State. 

In the light of these submissions, your Committee is hopeful that the Government will expedite the comprehensive review of the Prohibition and Prevention of the Money Laundering Act in order to mordernise it and bring it in line with minimum international standards taking into account the concerns by various stakeholders who appeared before your Committee.

With these few words in support of the Bill, your Committee wishes to pay tribute to you, Madam Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support it received during its deliberations.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, once again, I wish to thank the House for the overwhelming support. The suggestions made have been taken note of.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 
Question put and agreed and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 3rd November, 2010.

THE AGRICULTURAL CREDITS BILL, 2010

The Minister of Agricultural and Co-operatives (Dr Kazonga): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam, the Agricultural Credits Bill, 2010, seeks to provide for the following:

(i)    the establishment of the Warehouse Licensing Authority and provide for its functions and powers;

(ii)    to facilitate the borrowing of money on the security of charges created on farming stock and other agricultural assets;

(iii)    the registration of charges;

(iv)    the certification of warehouses;

(v)    the issuance and negotiations of warehouse receipts and the rights conferred by warehouse receipts; and 

(vi)    the rights and obligations of warehouse operators.

The main objective of the Bill is to facilitate the borrowing of money by farmers on security of their commodities in addition to charges created on farming stock and other agricultural assets.

Madam Speaker, the Bill is a suitable legal instrument for the incorporation of the issues relating to the warehouse receipt system as this system allows for the issuance of warehouse receipts. These receipts are recognised as legal documents of title or as documents capable of transferring ownership and legal rights to the underlying agricultural commodities by the mere transfer of the said warehouse receipt.

Madam, a proper system of warehouse receipts and registered warehouses will ensure safe storage of agricultural commodities and facilitate access to capital by all the marketing players. They will be recognised by the financial institutions and allow small-scale farmers to have access to credit while speculating for better prices for their stored commodities. It is envisaged that the Bill will provide greater stability in regulating agricultural trade and finance and effectively contribute towards the development of the agricultural sector.

Madam Speaker, the Government is of the desire to improve agricultural marketing, trade and finance in Zambia and it is for this reason that the Agricultural Credits Bill of 2010, incorporating the warehouse receipt system, is being tabled to this House.

This system will:

(i)    facilitate the borrowing of money by farmers on the security of agricultural commodities held in certified warehouses;

(ii)    contribute to the development of a cheaper and more efficient credit system in the agricultural sector; and 

(iii)    contribute towards achieving efficiencies in agricultural marketing.

Madam, I have no doubt that the agricultural sector will improve and continue recording success if the Bill is enacted, as it will enable greater access to agricultural inputs and improve service delivery in agricultural marketing and trade. I, therefore, urge the House to support this progressive Bill.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Madam, I wish to highlight a few issues contained in your Committee’s report on the Agricultural Credits Bill, 2010, referred to your Committee on 24th September, 2010.

It is my hope that hon. Members have taken time to read the report so that my role will only be to highlight those issues that caught the attention of your Committee during its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, the objectives of the Bill are to establish the Warehouse Licensing Authority and provide for its functions and powers. It also seeks to facilitate the borrowing of money on the security of charges created on farming stock and other agricultural assets as well as providing for the registration of charges. The Bill also provides for the issuance and negotiation of warehouse receipts and the rights and obligations of warehouse operators. The Bill also repeals and replaces the Agricultural Credits Act of 1995 and provides for other ancillary matters.

 Madam, I would like to indicate, from the outset, that your Committee supports the Bill. Your Committee notes that the enactment of this Bill will promote the development of important agricultural financing initiatives such as the warehouse receipt system and the out grower scheme. These private sector driven initiatives will provide options to agricultural financing, thus, playing a complementary role to the traditional Government financing of the sector. Subsequently, this will provide relief to the Government in terms of moblising resources to buy the surplus crop produced by the medium-scale farmers. However, the Government will still have to mobilise resources to buy the crop from the small-scale farmers who are in economically disadvantaged locations where such a system may not be operated economically.

Madam Speaker, during your Committee’s consideration of the Bill, various concerns were expressed by stakeholders that were invited to give their input on the ramifications of the Bill.

Madam, the stakeholders lamented over the short period of time that they were given to study and analyse the Bill in order for them to appear before your Committee and make meaningful submissions. As a result, some stakeholders either declined to submit to your Committee citing lack of time or those that appeared, focused on areas of the Bill that directly affected them. Other stakeholders cited lack of time to consult the members they represent.

Madam Speaker, your Committee welcomes the establishment of the Warehouse Licensing Authority. There is a need to have a regulatory body to ensure that the activities of stakeholders are regulated and a level playing field exists by providing guidelines which are backed by a legal framework.

Madam, under the proposed Bill, the functions of the Warehouse Licensing Authority are clear and relate more to the warehouse receipt system. However, this being an Agricultural Credit Bill, there is a need to broaden the functions of the Warehouse Licensing Authority to cover other initiatives such as the out grower schemes.

Madam Speaker, among the notable concerns raised by the stakeholders was the lack of sufficient infrastructure such as warehouses, especially in rural areas where these warehouses are supposed to operate from. Without the Government’s involvement in erecting new infrastructure, the warehouse receipt system will only operate in urban areas.

Madam, your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government should, as a matter of urgency, start erecting structures in rural areas so that the warehouse receipt system can equally benefit the small-scale farmers in the disadvantaged areas where there are no warehouses.
Madam Speaker, the stakeholders were also concerned that the warehouse receipt system will only thrive in locations that are accessible and close to the markets. Therefore, the beneficiaries of the warehouse receipt system will mostly be emergent and commercial farmers. The Government, therefore, will still need to have a role to play in providing a market for the small-scale farmers in rural areas. 

Madam Speaker, there is limited or no access to commodity derivatives due to a lack of recognisable commodity exchange in Zambia. There is, thus, a need to firstly generate interest and an environment that will allow for the orderly operation of the stock financing system and trading of agricultural commodities.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the Bill, your Committee wishes to make the observations and recommendations outlined below:

Madam Speaker, Clause 7 (1) (G) provides that one representative of a farmers organisation shall be a member of the board of authority. In most pieces of legislation, the Zambia National Farmers Union has been preferred as the institution that represents the interests of the farmers. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that since the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU) has the largest farmer representation and also, in order to remove all possible ambiguities, the clause should refer to the representative from the ZNFU and not a representative of a farmers’ organisation as provided for in the Bill. 

Clause 6 (2), grants power to the Minister to suspend or revoke the appointment of an authorised agency after giving that authorised agency fourteen days notice and an opportunity to be heard. Further, Clause 12 (1) (b) also provides a similar period of fourteen days in relation to rights conferred on the fixed charge holder. 

Madam Speaker, your Committee is of the view that fourteen days’ notice period is very short. There is a need to allow the agency sufficient time to respond and also to have an opportunity to be heard. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that a period of twenty-one days be preferred in both instances.

In conclusion, the members of your Committee are very grateful to you, Madam, for giving them an opportunity to scrutinise this Bill. Your Committee is also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary memoranda and briefs despite the short notice.

Madam Speaker, I wish to register my appreciation to all the members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to the work of the Committee. Allow me to also thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the advice and services rendered during the deliberations of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the Committee for the observations that were made. We shall take into consideration, particularly, the timeframe of fourteen days. I also wish to thank everybody for the overwhelming support of this particular Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 22nd October, 2010.

THE VETERINARY AND PARA-VETERINARY PROFESSIONALS BILL, 2010

The Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development (Mr Machila): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: As there is no quorum, I suspend business for two minutes.  

Hon. Members re-inserted their cards.

Business was suspended from 1631 hours until 1633 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: When business was suspended, the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development was about to move the second reading of Bill No. 39 of 2010. May he continue.

Mr Machila: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to present my ministry’s Second Reading Speech on the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals Bill for 2010.

Mr Speaker, the veterinary profession in Zambia has drastically developed in the last thirty years. The demand for veterinary services has become more pronounced for both the livestock as well as the pet industry. This is due to the growth in magnitude and importance in the industry. A large proportion of veterinary services are currently being provided by the private sector, unlike in the past.

Sir, due to this development, the Government has found itself with inadequate legal instruments to monitor and arbitrate the stakeholders in the veterinary profession and, therefore, found it relevant to introduce the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals Bill for 2010 in order to:

(i)    establish the Veterinary Association of Zambia;
(ii)    transform the Veterinary Board of Zambia into the Veterinary Council of Zambia;

(iii)    provide for the registration of Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals as well as regulate their professional conduct; 

(iv)    provide for the licensing of laboratories and animal health facilities;

(v)    provide for the recognition and approval of training programmes for Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals;

(vi)    repeal and replace the Veterinary Surgeons Act of 1964; and

(vii)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, the Veterinary Surgeons Act was promulgated in an environment in which the Government was producer, distributor, marketer, monitor and regulator of veterinary services. This act is no longer adequate under the new environment in which production, distribution and marketing is carried out mainly by the private sector.

Among the issues that have been identified as inadequacies in the current Veterinary Surgeons Act are the following:

(i)    the Act only deals with issues of veterinary surgeons, that is, holders of University Veterinary Degrees and does not clearly deal with other allied professions such as the livestock officers and the veterinary assistants;

(ii)    the current Act provides for automatic registration of veterinary surgeons who graduate from institutions of learning stipulated in the Act. It does not provide for professional examinations of applicants to practice as is the practice in other professions and other countries; and

(iii)    the current Act does not define the role nor does it indicate the limitations that should be observed by the various members of the veterinary profession.

Mr Speaker, the approval of the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals Bill, 2010 into an Act of Parliament will accrue benefits and resolve the following issues:

(i)    provide for the registration of not only the veterinary surgeons, but also the allied professions;

(ii)    provide for the registration of applicants after successfully passing a professional examination;

(iii)    provide for the establishment of the Veterinary Council of Zambia. The Veterinary Council of Zambia, to be established under the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals Act, 2010, will take over the functions of the current Board of Veterinary Surgeons; and 

(iv)    address issues related to the role and limitations that should be observed by the various members in the veterinary profession.

Mr Speaker, the successful enactment of the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals Bill, 2010 will facilitate legislation of instruments that will help the Government to effectively monitor and arbitrate institutions and/or individuals in the private sector who are in the veterinary profession.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, I wish to highlight a few issues contained in your Committee’s report on the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals Bill, 2010 referred to your Committee on 24th September, 2010 and laid on the Table of the House on 18th October, 2010. It is my hope that hon. Members took time to read the report so that I only highlight those issues that caught the attention of your Committee during its deliberations. 

Mr Speaker, the objectives of the Bill are to, among other issues, establish the Veterinary Association of Zambia, continue the existence of the Board of Veterinary Surgery and rename it as the Veterinary Council of Zambia, provide for the registration of Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals and regulate their professional conduct, provide for the licensing of laboratories and animal health facilities, recognition and approval of training programmes for Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professionals and repeal and replace the Veterinary Surgeons Act of 1964.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was assisted by various stakeholders in consideration of the Bill. Your Committee wishes to inform the House that all the stakeholders that appeared before it were in support of the Bill. In supporting the Bill, they raised a number of concerns that they thought would prevent the Bill from being effective. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to indicate, from the onset, that your Committee also supports the Bill. In supporting it, your Committee notes that the Bill has made an attempt to regulate the veterinary service providers. In formalising the existence of the Veterinary Association of Zambia and creating a governing and regulating council, through this Bill, the Government will be going a long way towards providing a platform for professional self-regulation and a means for professions to work together. More importantly, the Bill will pave way for the establishment of a mechanism for redress in the event that complaints in the delivery of veterinary services emerge.

In the recent years, Zambia has experienced an increase in the number of veterinary service providers. The School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Zambia, as well as other colleges, continue to graduate students as Veterinary Surgeons and Veterinary Para-Veterinary Professionals. The ever increasing number of veterinary practitioners, coupled with the socio-economic changes, calls for the need for self-regulation of the profession. The Bill, therefore, shall enhance the respect accorded to veterinary practitioners by society and ensure that standards consistent with and expected of the veterinary profession are maintained. The enactment of the Bill into legislation is, therefore, long overdue.

Mr Speaker, while the stakeholders that appeared before your Committee welcomed the Bill, they complained about the short period of time that was given to them to prepare their submissions and appear before your Committee. The stakeholders brought up a number of concerns which have been highlighted in your report. I hope hon. Members have had an opportunity to read these concerns in your report. I will, therefore, only highlight a few of these concerns. 

Mr Speaker, the stakeholders that appeared before your Committee were concerned that the term ‘Para-Veterinary Professional’ is no longer an accepted terminology in the industry. In order to be aligned with the modern trends, it was proposed that the Bill should use the term ‘Veterinary Para-Professional’ and not the term used in the Bill. 

In addition, the stakeholders wondered why the Bill, in its objects clause, referred to the Veterinary Board of Zambia as the board created by the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1964, Cap. 243 of the Laws of Zambia, when, in fact, the said Act refers to the Board of Veterinary Surgery.

The stakeholders were also concerned that the functions of the Veterinary Council of Zambia seem to overlap with those of the Veterinary Association of Zambia. Clause 10 (1) of the Bill clearly spells out that the council shall perform all the functions of the association. It was, thus, submitted that there was a need to distinguish the functions of the council from those of the association.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was informed that Clause 9 (1) (g) of the Bill needed to be revised so that the private and public veterinary professionals can also sit on the council as opposed to the current Bill which only provides for three para-veterinary professionals as members of the council. The stakeholders argued that it was important for the veterinary professionals to take ownership of their own professional interest. 

Further, some stakeholders were concerned that Clause 63 (1) (c) and Paragraphs 1 (2) of the First Schedule made reference to a chairperson and vice-chairperson of the council when there is no provision that creates these positions anywhere in the Bill. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee took note of the concerns of the stakeholders and agrees with their respective observations and concerns. In agreeing with the stakeholders’ concerns, your Committee recommended that the Bill be amended so that the issues set out hereunder are taken on board. 

Your Committee observes that the title of the Bill is not in line with internationally accepted norms. At the international level, the term ‘Veterinary Para-Professional’ is the widely accepted terminology.

Therefore, your Committee recommends that the term ‘Veterinary Para-Professional’ be used in the Bill and that appropriate amendments be effected in the Bill wherever the term has been incorrectly used.

Your Committee also observes that the Veterinary Surgeons Act of 1964, which the Bill seeks to repeal, established a board of Veterinary Surgery in its Section 3. However, the Bill has erroneously referred to this board as the Veterinary Board of Zambia. Therefore, your Committee recommends that reference in the Bill should be to the Board of Veterinary Surgery and not the non-existent board that the Bill refers to.

Further, your Committee observes that Clause 5 (3) b and 6 of the Bill only recognises the Offices of the President and Vice-President as the only elected Members of the Executive Committee of the Veterinary Association of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, there is also a need to include the other members of the executive of the association. The silence on this fact will imply that the executive of the association constitutes of only officers recognised by the Bill. Therefore, your Committee recommends that the other executive members of the association are mentioned in the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the Bill seeks to create a Veterinary Council of Zambia that will be responsible for the management and control of the affairs of the association.

Sir, Clause 10 (1) of the Bill provides that the functions of the council include performing all the functions of the association. Your Committee observes that this is a serious contradiction, as its effect is to completely render the association moribund. Your Committee wonders why the council should be made to perform all the functions of the association.

Mr Speaker, therefore, your Committee recommends that Clause 10 (1) of the Bill be deleted so that the functions of the council and those of the association can be separated.

Mr Speaker, the Bill in Clause 63 paragraph 1 (2) of the First Schedule needs refining. These provisions make reference to a chairperson and vice-chairperson of the council. However, there is nowhere in the Bill where these offices are created. These provisions are, therefore, hanging as there is no chairperson or vice-chairperson of the council.

Therefore, your Committee recommends that the Bill be refined so that structures of both the council and the association are clearly spelt out. In addition, your Committee recommends that the Bill clearly stipulate that the chairperson and vice-chairperson of the council be elected by the members of the council from among their number.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, while noting the serious concerns that have been raised by the stakeholders as stated earlier, supports the Bill. In supporting the Bill, it urges the Government to consider the concerns of the stakeholders as well as your Committee’s observations and recommendations which are highlighted in your report.

In conclusion, your Committee is very grateful to you, Sir, for giving it an opportunity to scruitinise the Bill. Your Committee is also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary memoranda and briefs despite the short notice.

Mr Speaker, I wish to register my appreciation to all the members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to the work of your Committee. Allow me to also thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the advice and services rendered during the deliberations of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Mr Speaker, I am most grateful to your Committee and thankful for its support and its progressive proposals that have been made for amendments and which shall be taken under due consideration. 

Mr Speaker, further to that, I would like to thank the House for the overwhelming support.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 22nd October, 2010.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Before we go to the next order, I just want to guide the House on what has become a habit. Many reports of my Committees, including the one which we have just heard, contain complaints by the stakeholders giving the impression that certain Bills that have come before the Floor of this House have taken them by surprise. In other words, they are complaining that they are not sufficiently consulted. Eventually, Bills become law after this House votes for them and, then, the law becomes universally applicable. 

The guidance which I am giving to the Executive is that, if those complaints and others before that are true, there should be adequate consultations with those who are relevant to the professions or the topics upon which the Bills are based to avoid that kind of complaint. There is nothing confidential about any Bill even in its raw form such as to avoid being discussed openly with those the Bills or the future laws will affect. 

On the other hand, if those complaints are untrue, because the stakeholders have on the contrary been consulted, I would like to know why they are still complaining. I cannot know until the Executive informs me accordingly.

_______{mospagebreak}

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in 
the Chair]

THE LANDS TRIBUNAL BILL, 2010

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Lands (Ms Lundwe): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3:

(a)    after line 11, by the insertion, immediately after line 11, of the following definition:

Cap. 194

“council registrar” has the meaning assigned to it in the Housing (Statutory and Improvement Areas) Act; and

(b)    after line 19, by the insertion, immediately after line 19, of the following definition:

“person in authority” means the President, the Minister, the Minister responsible for local government, the Director-General, the Director of Forestry, a chief, the Registrar or a council registrar”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 – (Jurisdiction of Tribunal)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4:

(a)    on page 4, in line 9

Cap. 1

by the deletion of the words “The Tribunal” and the substitution therefor of the words “Subject to the Constitution, the Tribunal”; and

(b)    on page 5, in lines 1 to 7 by the deletion of sub-clauses (2) and (3) and the substitution therefor of the following sub-clause:

(2)    “An order of the Tribunal shall be enforced as if it were an order of court, if no application for the review of the order is made”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Composition of Tribunal)

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister should indicate as quickly as possible.

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 5:

(a)    in lines 10 to 11 by the deletion, immediately after the words “who shall be” of the words “qualified to be a judge of the High Court” and the substitution therefor of the words “a legal practitioner of not less than seven years legal experience”;

(b)    in lines 12 to 13 by the deletion, immediately after the words “who shall be” of the words “qualified to be a judge of the High Court” and the substitution therefor of the words “a legal practitioner of not less than seven years legal experience”;

(c)    in line 15 by the deletion, immediately after the words “less than” of the word “ten” and the substitution therefor of the word “seven”;

(d)    after line 15 by the insertion of the following new paragraph:

“(d)   a representative of the Law Association of Zambia of not less than seven years legal experience”; and

(e)    in lines 16 to 23 by the re-numbering of paragraphs (d), (e), (f), (g) and (h) as paragraphs (e), (f), (g), (h) and (i), respectively.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 – (Registrar of Tribunal)
Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 7:

(a)    in line 2 by the deletion, immediately after the words “appointed by the”, of the word “public” and the substitution therefor of the word “Judicial”;

(b)    by the insertion after line 20 of the following new sub-clause:

(3)    A person aggrieved with a decision of the Registrar may appeal to the Chairperson and in the absence of the Chairperson, the Vice-Chairperson, the representative of the Law Association of Zambia.

(c)    in lines 21 to 28 by the re-numbering of sub-clauses (3), (4) and (5) as sub-clauses (4), (5) and (6), respectively.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8 – (Application to Tribunal)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 8, on page 7, in lines 29 to 30 by the deletion of Clause 8 and the substitution therefor of the following clause:

    Application to tribunal

8.    A person may apply to the Tribunal for a determination on any matter which falls within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 – (Proceedings of Tribunal)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 10, on page 8:

(a)    in line 2 by the insertion, immediately after the word “Chairperson”, of the words “or, in the absence of the Chairperson, the Deputy Chairperson”; and

(b)    in line 11 by the deletion, immediately after the words “representative of the”, of the words “Attorney-General” and the substitution therefor of the words “Law Association of Zambia”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 11 – (Powers of Tribunal with Respect to Proceedings)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 11, on page 9:

(a)    in line 24 by the deletion of the word “subordinate” and the substitution therefor of the word “High”; and

(b)    in line 29 by the deletion of the word “subordinate” and the substitution therefor of the word “High”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 13 – (Publication of Judgements of Tribunal)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 13:

(a)    on page 9, in line 37 by the deletion of the figure “1” between the number “13” and the words “The Registrar”; and

(b)    on page 10, in lines 1 to 3 by the deletion of sub-clause (2).

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 14 – (Frivolous or vexations proceedings)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 14, on page 10, in line 5, by the insertion, immediately after the word ‘it’, of the words “shall dismiss the application and”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 16 – (Appeal to Supreme Court)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 16, on page 10

(a)    in the marginal note by the deletion of the word ‘Supreme’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘High’; and

(b)    in line 14 by the deletion, immediately after the words ‘appeal to the’, of the word ‘Supreme’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘High’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 17 and 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 19 – (Costs)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 19, on page 11, in lines 13 to 25 by the deletion of sub-clauses (4) (5) (6) and (7) and the substitution therefor of the following Clause:

(4)    A person who is aggrieved with a decision of the Registrar of the Tribunal under subsection (3) shall, within fourteen days of the receipt of the decision, apply to the person presiding over the Tribunal to review the taxation.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 19, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 20, 21, 22 and 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

THE LANDS AND DEEDS REGISTRY (Amendment) BILL, 2010

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of section 2)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 1, in lines 6 to 12 by the deletion of Clause 2 and the substitution therefor of the following:

Section two of the principal Act is amended by the insertion in the appropriate place of the following new definition:

‘Lands Tribunal’ means the Lands Tribunal referred to under section three of the Lands Tribunal Act, 2010

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Amendment of section 11)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 1, in lines 13 to 22 by the deletion of Clause 3 and the substitution therefor of the following:

3. Section eleven of the principal Act is amended by the deletion of the words ‘Court or Judge’ wherever they appeal and the substitution therefor of the words ‘Lands Tribunal, Court or Judge’;

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 – (Amendment of section 81)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 1, in line 25 by the deletion of the words ‘Lands Tribunal’ and the substitution  therefor of the words ‘Lands Tribunal, Court or Judge’; and

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (General Amendment)

Ms Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 1, in lines 26 to 28 by the deletion of Clause 5 and the substitution therefor of the following:

5.    The principal Act is amended by the insertion, immediately after the word ‘Court’ wherever it appears, of the words ‘or Lands Tribunal’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE LANDS (Amendment) BILL, 2010

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE HOUSING (Statutory and Improvement Areas) (Amendment) Bill, 2010 

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of section 3) 

Dr Chituwo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 1, in lines 6 to 9 by the deletion of Clause 2 and the substitution therefor of the following:

2.     Section three of the principal Act is amended – 

(a)    by the deletion of the definition ‘Court’; and 

(b)    by the insertion in the appropriate place of the following new definition:

‘Lands Tribunal’ means the Lands Tribunal provided for under section three of the Lands Tribunal Act, 2010;

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 and 4 order ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:

The Lands Tribunal Bill, 2010. 

The Lands and Deeds Registry (Amendment) Bill, 2010.

The Housing (Statutory and Improvement Areas) (Amendment) Bill, 2010. 

Report Stages on Thursday, 21st October, 2010.

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Lands (Amendment) Bill, 2010. 

Third Reading on Thursday 21st October, 2010. 

_________

MOTION

BUDGET 2010 

(Debate resumed)

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Mufalali): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me a chance to debate the Budget Speech which was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to this august House on Friday, 8th October, 2010.

Mr Speaker, I agreed with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when he said that this Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government will remain focused on working hard to improve the quality of life of people in every corner of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, this Government has carried out a lot of developmental programmes countrywide despite the economic difficulties which the country has been going through.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, it must be noted that we have had trying moments since the beginning of this Tenth National Assembly. We lost our beloved President Dr Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace. We also lost the biggest number of hon. Members of Parliament during this assembly than any other. During this assembly, we lost about ten hon. Members of Parliament and this led to the country having funeral after funeral and a number of by-elections. Last year, we not only had funerals, but also the world economic crisis and climate change which saw some developmental programmes standing still. 

Mr Speaker, all these experiences we have survived through have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda is the right President for the Republic of Zambia. Despite all these calamities, we, as a country, are still on the right track.

Interruptions 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, let me now talk a bit about the Ministry of Community Development and Socials Services. This ministry is the people’s ministry because it deals with a lot of programmes which are targeted at the poorest of the poor. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, some of the programmes which are run by this ministry include women development programmes, non-formal and skills training, food and security pack programmes as well as community self-help activities. 

Mr Speaker, let me elaborate a bit on the self-help activities. This programme helps communities acquire some funds from our ministry to support community projects started by them. We provide application forms to the community in need so that it can complete the projects which it started. So, apart from empowering women, we also empower communities through self-help projects.

Madam Speaker, a nation without culture is dead. Therefore, we have the department of cultural affairs in our ministry whose main purpose is to preserve our culture as a nation. We have to be real Zambians through our cultural music, dance, wear and food, among others. Hence, we also have folk culture and cultural industry programmes in the media, public performances, cultural research, folklore and tangible heritage. This is where traditional ceremonies come in. We also have arts and cultural infrastructure in Kasama, Masala, Kabwe and Solwezi and give support to institutions like Maramba and Kapata cultural villages. This shows that my ministry is in touch with the grass root population. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of Parliament to support my ministry’s budget when it comes up for approval.

Mr Speaker, the Movement for MMD Government has played a pivotal role in developing the health sector in this country. We have seen twenty-six hospitals and 125 rural health posts constructed countrywide. These are physical structures that the Zambian people can see and touch. The MMD does not just make promises, but brings its promises into reality. Therefore, come 2011, the people will judge reality from fantasy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I am more than grateful that the Sesheke/Senanga road is one of the roads to be constructed. Some power hungry people who were in previous Governments never considered constructing this road. However, now that they are not in power, they want to mislead the nation by claiming that they will rehabilitate it when they come back into power. Yet, when they were in the Government, they failed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mufalali: They should just let President Rupiah Banda finish fulfilling his promises. He has already started the construction of this road much to the delight and gratitude of the people of Sesheke. The MMD told them that, “Give us Mufalali and we will construct Sesheke/Senanga road for you.” 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: This has happened. The people of Sesheke are grateful and we have promised to retain President Rupiah Banda in 2011. 

Mr Mwenya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. First and foremost, I apologise to the hon. Deputy Minister for disturbing his aggressive debate. However, I rise to raise a very serious point of order which hinges on the conduct of business of this august House and on the duties of hon. Members of Parliament. It is a known fact that the roles of hon. Members of Parliament are derived from the roles of this House. Further, it is a well-established fact that the respect of this House is earned by all of us by the manner in which we conduct ourselves.

Mr Speaker, therefore, is the Member of Parliament for Wusakile, Hon. Barnabas Chella, in order to raise disparaging remarks against me in the press? Is he in order to make demeaning conjunctures against me to the extent that the residents of the constituency I represent have started asking questions on whether Parliament deposits money in my personal bank account for me to deliver development to them as an individual?

Sir, I wish to refer to the Times of Zambia newspaper of 14th October, 2010 in a story headlined “MMD’ll win 2011 polls – PF MP.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, in the said story, Hon. Barnabas Chella is quoted as having said:

“He said it was unfortunate that some PF MPs were “blind” to development projects going on in their constituencies. 

“The Kitwe industrial area where the MMD Government has rehabilitated roads is under Nkana Constituency, but the area MP Mwenya Musenge has on several occasions attacked President Banda in the media when he himself has done literally nothing for his constituency.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya:

“He should have commended the president for the good work, Mr Chella said.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling over this matter. Allow me to lay the paper on the Table.

Mr Mwenya laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Speaker: I shall study the point of order that has been raised by the hon. Member for Nkana to ascertain whether a prima facie case can be established based on the complaint he has made against the hon. Member for Wusakile. I shall rule on the point of order thereafter.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue, but refrain from debating as though you are a Back Bencher.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Do not debate your constituency specifically, but the nation as a whole.

You may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the border facility at Katima Mulilo is another milestone for which the MMD Government will never be forgotten in the history of this nation. The people of Sesheke will also never forget the border post at Imusho, which has been built by this hardworking Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, God loves Zambia very much and, therefore, gave it the late President Mwanawasa, SC. and now President Rupiah Banda. This country could have been in trouble if God had not given us these two leaders at the time he did. If God had handed the country over to the people who are now promising Zambians good things, I do not know what could have happened.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: They hate the people of the Western Province …

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mufalali: … and describe them …

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Mr Mufalali: … as …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mufalali remained standing.

Mr Speaker: Take your seat.

Mr Mufalali sat down.

Mr Speaker: No hon. Deputy Minister debates provincially. Debate issues to do with the whole nation.

You may continue.

Interruptions 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, they threatened the Watch Tower Sect, who do not sing the National Anthem and vote, with imprisonment upon winning elections. They went on to threaten that anybody who would be found HIV positive would be quarantined. 

Laughter

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Mufalali: Today, these people seem to be champions through their sweet talk, but God knows them. He will never grant them the leadership of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, let me advise ...

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services is in order to simply make baseless allegations for which he has provided no evidence, and there is no evidence, against some named persons who nonetheless he has vaguely identified? Is he in order to say that somebody has ever proposed to lock up HIV positive people? Where and when was that said because that would be a criminal suggestion? Further, what has that got to do with the Budget Address?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member for Lusaka Central, through that point of order, is challenging the hon. Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services to be factual and substantiate what he said by stating who said what and about whom? Can the hon. Deputy Minister justify what was said? Is the hon. Deputy Minister able to tell this House who threatened the Watch Tower Sect and those persons with the HIV malady? Can you give the House the names? If not, move onto the next point.

You may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, let me advise Hon. Muyanda ...

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: ... that this Government is fighting the scourge of corruption tooth and nail. This Government has put in place legislation to stop corruption and it is my hope that every Zambian will appreciate this fight by our Government. The Zambian people can see the good things that this Government is doing and it is these things that will lead us to victory next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion. I promise not to set in anybody with anything unreasonable.

Mr Speaker, I did say when I spoke on the President’s Address that it was not a bad campaign speech because, after all, between this Presidential Address to Parliament and the next one, by whoever the President will be at the time, there will be an election. It is not surprising that the Budget Address is also something of an election document. After all, that is not unusual. The Conservatives in the last British election virtually had to put their shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer under house arrest to stop him from talking about expenditure cuts. This way, the electorate were a bit lured into a sense of comfort, but only to find that the cuts were coming and have since come. 

So, this document, as one would expect, will be taken by the hon. Minister and others around the country hopefully by road, it might be safer, or by some reliable form of aircraft.

Laughter

Dr Scott: It will be shown to people to say, “Look, how much we care for you. We have allocated K15 billion on tax revenues in the total budget of K20.5 billion and there will be an enormous increase in the number of roads that we are building.” A huge increase, in fact, is shown between last year’s Budget and the proposed one this year. We are adults and would like to know what the truth is even if campaigning is something else. Is this expenditure that is projected on roads to be worked on within the year? Is this a total expenditure for on-going projects in 2011 and after 2011? I think we need to know how this total of K4 trillion, if I am not mistaken, is compounded and how it relates to what is actually going to happen because we hear a lot, in this warm up to this election campaign, about roads. Suddenly, the roads are wonderful. I wonder why I still need a four-wheel drive even in my constituency, which is the centre of Lusaka, sometimes. 

Sir, the budget totals look a bit implausible. The tax revenue base in this current 2010 tenure is K5.7 trillion direct taxes and total tax revenue is K11.3. The projected direct tax for next year, 2011, is K7.8 and K15.2 total which represents a 30 to 35 per cent increase in those tax categories. I wonder where it is coming from because I have looked in vain. For example, there is quite a big hike in mining revenues projected, but there is nothing in the text of the speech that shows how this increase is going to come about. 

Mr Speaker, yes, we know that the price of copper will be higher, but it was actually even higher still in 2008 and we are now talking about a minimum of 35 per cent a year. The price of copper has been higher and revenues lower than even in 2010. So, one would like to know whether this is fantasy, fiction, daydreaming or really professional projections to, maybe, even show the multi-lateral donors that we do not really care if they withdraw money for health and so forth which, of course, they are not really doing. We will get our first adjustment to this Budget, probably, within the month when they resume funding to health and then the sums are going to have to be changed around.

Sir, mining taxation remains the elephant in the room here and I feel obliged to quote the International Monetary Fund (IMF) because it cannot be faulted for lack of sympathy for developing countries. It has done a lot to shield us from the effects of the worldwide recession and the temporary drop in the copper prices. However, on page 6, under Business News of The Post news paper of Friday, 15th October, 2010, there is an article headlined “Mining sector contribution to Zambia’s Treasury small –IMF,” which says:

“The contribution of the mining sector to Zambia’s Treasury is very small though it constitutes a very large part of the economy, International Monetary Fund (IMF) resident representative Perry Perone said yesterday.”

Mr Speaker, it further reads that:

“Perone said the contribution of revenue collection from the mining sector to the country’s revenue basket was problematic.

“Mining sector contributes about 70 per cent of the country’s foreign exchange earnings, constituting 9.7 per cent of the total economic output, while tax contribution is about one per cent of the total collection by ZRA.”

Mr Speaker, I and the hon. Member for Luena worked quite hard, two years ago, in the ...

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: ... Expanded Committee on Estimates to convince the mining companies to come along with what the Government of the day proposed. This very MMD Government, of course, with a different hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and President proposed windfall tax. We calculated how the windfall tax combined with other tax changes proposed would earn Zambia, as claimed, a 40 to 50 per cent profit. If taxed, this would be about the median for mining companies.

I disagree with Hon. Milupi that it has to be the windfall tax. Nobody is insisting on the names that taxes must have or the exact formula that must be applied. The point is that the taxation levels or the amount of tax being received from the mines for the Central Treasury is not adequate.

Mr Speaker, the original capitalists who run the mining companies were socially responsible. They built the towns on the Copperbelt and introduced fantastic water, road and sewerage systems. However, the Copperbelt now looks like a series of ghost towns even though we know that there is prosperity as evidenced by the prices on the London Metal Exchange and the level at which people are investing. 

Mr Speaker, let me point out that a rapid rate of investment in mining will not necessarily show itself in huge increases in employment. If you give somebody an incentive to make a capital expenditure, he can make two kinds of capital expenditure. One is capital expenditure which would increase production without changing technology and, thereby increase, by definition, the amount of labour necessary to achieve that production. 

Sir, in agriculture, you could take the analogy of somebody buying a second tractor so that he or she can plough more land, plant more maize and employ more people to harvest the maize. However, the same farmer might also buy a combine harvester and its purpose might be to remove the need to employ people to harvest the maize as only one driver is required.

Therefore, if you give too much capital incentives, like a 100 per cent write off on capital investment or on profit tax, you are inclined to end up with labour substituting capital rather than expansion capital. 

Mr Speaker, there are very highly mechanised mining technologies at the moment. Let me just quote some slight historical figures as regards employment in the mining sector. The peak employment level in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) was in 1976 when over 60,000 persons were employed. By the time it came to the sale of the first mine in 1997, this figure had halved and dropped to 31,000 because of the shrinkage of the mines. However, by 2001, as the foreign investors came in and started getting the mines running again, that 31,000 had dropped to 20,000 workers. This reduction saw the workers being casualised as machinery was put in place.

Mr Speaker, when we talk of jobs in Zambia, we tend to think of nice secure jobs with a pension and security of tenure, but casualisation now accounts for between 20,000 and 30,000 workers. These workers are living from day to day and are paid very poorly.

Mr Speaker, as the hon. Minister flies around with this document, we will also fly around with the same document …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … and explain where the funny stuff is. I always like to look at the front cover of the Budget Address booklet because it gives some indication of what is regarded. There is a small child who is, definitely, an under-five flashig the hour salute.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Under-Five.

Dr Scott: She is definitely under five, …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … but old enough to know better than to vote for the MMD. I do not know where this child was found. 

Above the child is a huge dumper truck which must have replaced about ten lesser dumper trucks or, maybe, 200 workers. It is a huge, vast machine which is neither made in Zambia nor from Zambian steel. It is, maybe, driven by one or two Zambian skilled drivers and, probably, costs in the region of half a million dollars. 

Mr Speaker, we should discourage that the revenues from Copper go straight back into capital formation which will reduce jobs.

Mr Speaker, we do not really expect this Budget to turn out much like it is written. It is a very upbeat Budget that says never mind the donors, we can raise the money locally, and the tax will be adequate. We just need to borrow a bit of money. We will build more schools and more health facilities. Yes, that is very nice, hon. Minister, but I will also be carrying the same document with stickers coming out where we can reference what is there.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to refer to the President’s Speech, particularly where he said that he had no apologies to make about saving jobs in the mines. I think we should look a lot more deeply into the technologies that are being used on the mines and the tax framework which is not only failing to generate revenues that we need for adequate levels of education, health and infrastructure, among others, but is also failing to represent the jobs. Twenty thousand is the number of adults coming onto the Zambian labour market every month, twelve months a year. There is a very small quantity of personnel compared to what it used to be.

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Lubinda: Point of bukoko.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to explain to us why agriculture seems to be going off Budget. The amount proposed for 2011 is not even adequate for the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to buy this year’s crop, transport it and store it, let alone, all the other activities the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives has to undertake. It looks as if the whole maize-fertiliser story is going off Budget. It is being kept somewhere outside the Budget and the Budget is proceeding as some kind of ritual formality that is performed around a tree every year or something like that. 

You have spent a trillion Kwacha or you will have spent it by the time three quarters of a million tonnes of maize is in. There is still a million tonnes of maize which is not going to be taken up by the private sector. We would all like to know where it is and how many trillions you have set aside for it. 

Mr Speaker, I think there are numerous anomalies here which those of us who like a good Budget would like to see resolved. However, it is a good campaign document and I, too, will use it.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I think I have made the major points I wanted to make and the rest will come up in the sector by sector picture. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Tourism Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Mr Speaker, I wish to report that I just arrived from Zimbabwe where Zambia won the Best International Stand Award out of twenty-five other competitive countries on 15th October, 2010. It shall be presented to you, hon. Mr Speaker, in due course.

Hon. Members: Obama!

Mrs Masebo: From the White House.

Interruptions

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, I wish to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, MP, on the 2011 Budget Address, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: … delivered to the National Assembly on Friday, 8th October, 2010.

Mr Mabenga: Yes!

Mr Munaile: Bo Chair, yes yanshi?

Laughter

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, let me address tourism. I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the voices of those that have supported the Motion on the Floor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Good English.

Mr Mwangala: Let me begin by thanking Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane for allocating K63.3 billion Budget to the tourism sector in the 2011 Budget. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, tourism continues to be a key source of jobs, prosperity and competitiveness, particularly in rural areas where most tourist attractions are found.

Mr Mabenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, I am pleased to note the continued development of the sector through enhanced marketing and repositioning of Zambia as a premier nature, wildlife and cultural tourism destination which has been allocated K12.8 billion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Hammer, hammer, my brother!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, infrastructure development is the backbone of any tourism industry. Infrastructure defines the type and standard of a tourism product. It is a must do for the industry to contribute meaningfully to the national economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, it is because of the above that I am particularly happy about the allocation of K38.6 billion to the completion of the Mbala/Mpulungu and Mbala/Kasaba Bay roads.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon. Kaingu, in order to sit in the House quietly instead of petitioning the Parliamentary Reforms so that Lozi becomes part of the language which should be used in this House?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

We have no time for that sort of point of order when the House is debating a very serious matter, the 2011 National Budget. 

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that I am particularly happy about the allocation of K38.6 billion to the completion of the Mbala/Mpulungu and Mbala/Kasaba Bay roads …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: … as well as the contribution of the terminal building at Kasaba Bay Airport in the Northern Tourism Circuit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: I am grateful to note that about 70 per cent of earthworks on the extension of the runway at Kasaba Bay Airport have been completed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, the works on the Mbala/Kasaba Bay Road have commenced, while electrical works are underway and will be completed in 2011.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, the Kafue, Lusaka and Livingstone National parks are some of the priority tourism development areas that have been identified to give tourists a diversified and exciting tourist experience and, thereby increase their length of stay from the current seven days.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Further, facilitation of tourism business will make Zambia’s tourism product competitive.

Sir, I am, therefore, happy to note that another K37.7 billion has been allocated to the development of roads and infrastructure in the Kafue and Livingstone National parks as well as the creation of a tourist one-stop shop licensing window in Livingstone.

Mr Speaker, mizyems are a depository of our culture.

Mrs Masebo: What are mizyems?

Mr Shakafuswa: He is talking about museums, but he is pronouncing it the Lozi way.

Mr Mwangala: It is, therefore, gratifying to note that K1.1 billion has been allocated to the upgrading of the permanent exhibition at the Lusaka National Museum.

Mr Mabenga: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwangala: Sir, already, the sector is steadily picking up with preliminary results indicating that the passenger movements at the country’s major airports increased by 17 per cent in the first half of 2010 and the sector is expected to increase tourist arrivals from the current 802,000 to 1.5 million by 2015.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, finally, allow me to thank the Government for its continued effort to transform the Northern Tourism Circuit, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: … Kafue and the Greater Livingstone National parks to mention, but a few …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwangala: … into tourist destinations of choice.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, …

Hon. Members: Aah, continue!

Mr Mwangala: … I totally support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you most heartily for according me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the 2011 Budget Speech presented to this honourable House by Hon. Dr Musokotwane.

Sir, perhaps, I can start my debate by asking a few questions: How do you determine the growth of an economy in any particular country? We, as Zambians, on both sides of the House, must not shy away from speaking about visible development. Otherwise, we will become irrelevant.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if you drive from Kafue, you will notice glittering buildings on both sides of the road. When you enter Kafue and cross the railway line, you will notice lodges and farms on both sides of the road coming up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, when you enter Makeni and drive through town to the  flyover bridge from the Kabwe Round About, you will also notice that on both sides of the road up to the Manda Hill and Arcades shopping malls, you are ‘intoxicated’ by the sight of various buildings.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, that is how you determine the growth of an economy.

Mr Speaker, if some people came to this honourable House merely to say, “Question” unreasonably, …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … I think, they will go back as empty as they came here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, it is wise for any hon. Member of Parliament to listen to debates. 

Professor Lungwangwa: Especially yours!

Mr Munkombwe: I take time and do not shout at anyhow because that is not part of the Commonwealth Parliamentary System.

Mr Kasongo: Question!

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I want to make it clear that before I became an hon. Minister, I was a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Chairperson at that time was the late hon. S. Chipwaya. I had the privilege of attending the American Senate under Nancy Kassebaum. The veteran diplomat, Mr V. J. Mwaanga, can attest to this. I had the privilege of being asked to address the American Senate and I ventured into a topic which I understood very well and I made an impact.

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if you go right up to the airport roundabout and look on both sides, you can conclude that even if you do not belong to this Government, you should be able to talk about development because it is Zambian in character. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Whether you belong to whatever party, the fact that this development is initiated by the MMD Government headed by Mr Rupiah Banda, I think that it is onerous for anybody to speak about it. We should not underestimate development … 

Professor Lungwangwa: Uta lumbi mubwa!

Mr Munkombwe: … because if you do, you are irrelevant to society. When you are irrelevant to society, it does not matter what language you use, you will continue to be irrelevant.

Mr Speaker, if you buy fifty animals per year because you want to be economically strong, but you reduce that figure to twenty-two due to your carelessness then what are you? It means you are not capable of running a kiosk. Therefore, how do you hope to run a supermarket?

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, some three weeks ago, there was a disaster in Mpulungu and I was privileged to go and have a look at those thirty-four houses and families that were affected. Of course, there are patches on the Great North Road and the Government is working on that, but as you get to Mpika, Kasama and to Mansa, it is an honour to drive on the road. If you drive from Kasama to Mbala, you feel proud to be a Zambian and to belong to this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: If you drive from Mbala to Mpulungu, you can tell that this Government is working and the proof is partly contained in this year’s Budget. 

You know that a farmer is productive from what he produces. You cannot produce maize and put it in your bedroom. If that is the case then how maize bags can that be?

I was listening to some figures of production, province by province, and there was one area that was said to have produced about 11,000 metric tonnes of maize. 

Hon. Opposition Members: That is Western Province!

Mr Munkombwe: I retorted and said, “I think I did beat that one.”  Similarly, that is development as a result of the agricultural policies which have been implemented by this Government. I am very proud to belong to this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if you drive throughout the country, you will find that farmers have money in their pockets. 

If they talk about slams, where are there no slams in this world? There are more slams in South Africa than they are here. There are slams in America, Egypt and India.

People who thought they would mislead us by asking us to reintroduce windfall tax wanted us to fail. We have people in this country who are scaring away mining corporations. We should not go that way. We will not be intimidated by threats of, “We will take over.” After all, how many are they? Take stock of the figures. If you produce forty-nine hon. Members of Parliament and you end up dismissing the rest of them and remain with twenty-two, are you building your party?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Munkombwe: As far as I am concerned, the number has reduced. It will end up reaching a number which can deplete. Hon. Members, do you think we will wait to be taken over by you people who are even reducing yourselves to a level that is not worth talking about? We will not wait. We will go forward. Let me say that because of these revelations, next year’s elections will be the easiest to be won by the MMD Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: We will win with a wider margin and I will be there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: God loves me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Munkombwe: Those who are saying, “Question” may not come back.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That I can assure them. They are here for five years and after that, they will have failed lamentably and I will still be there.

Mrs Phiri: Why are you cursing us?

Mr Munkombwe: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. You can only prove that something is nice to swallow by chewing it. You cannot argue that, in Namwala, for instance, there are no people who have powerful houses and animals. Hon. Ronnie Shikapwasha was at the Shimunenga Ceremony, last week, and he saw the development that is there by this Government. You cannot close your eyes and ears because you do not want to see what the MMD has done through President Rupiah Banda. If you open your eyes, you will see what has happened. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: There is even no need for anyone of us to threaten anybody because the people will do the job by voting. There is no way you can say the people are not appreciative of this development anywhere. We have heard people say that they do not like this Government and that, perhaps, somebody else will do a better job, but this Government has worked. That is man or woman enough. Let us admit that the development in this country does not belong to Mr Rupiah Banda alone. It belongs to all of us. We are Zambian nationals. We should not underestimate whatever has happened in this country. We will be proud people. If you only sing weakness, every time you sing, people will already determine …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was emphasising the relevance of a Zambian politician whether in the Ruling Party or Opposition. 

Mr Speaker, I do not want to sound colloquial, but the people of the Southern Province are grateful to the Government for having put up the highest number of schools in the country. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: If we do not thank the Government, who will? Whether in the Opposition or not, we have to appreciate the fact that this Government is working. Hon. Opposition Members are free to say that the Government can do better. There is nothing wrong with fantasies. 

Laughter 

Mr Munkombwe: Those who dream big, achieve big. Success breeds success. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: This Government has succeeded in establishing schools and hospitals throughout the country. Zambians must learn to talk about development which has been brought about by the MMD, under the leadership of President Banda. If hon. Members in the Opposition think that they can build better schools, they should say so because they are entitled to. However, for you to say that this Government has not done anything, you are irrelevant in whatever area you may be. The issue of relevance in politics is cardinal. 

Mr Speaker, we have put up hospitals throughout the country. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Where?

Mr Munkombwe: You can ask that question if you live in a particular area and you do not go to other places. There are hospitals everywhere. People who are fond of saying that the Government has not done anything are five-year term hon. Members of Parliament. 

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: They fade away very easily.

Mr Speaker, I have experienced this in Choma. Successful hon. Members of Parliament who have taken over from me talk about building projects and roads that I initiated. It is alright for them to talk about projects they would like to undertake because it is their entitlement.  If, however, they say that I did not do anything, people will walk out of their meetings. 

Laughter 

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, some people thought that Hon. Chizhyuka was getting out of hand. I, however, think that we have something to learn from him. Out of every act and speech, an intelligent man must be able to learn something. 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: If you cannot learn anything from anybody, it means you are irrelevant. 

Mr Speaker, I have known powerful politicians in this country who, when they left the United National Independence Party (UNIP), other people left as well. Even those who encouraged them to resign ran away with them. 

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: People want to see other people drown. When you get out of any political party, you become irrelevant there and then. You are strong because you belong to a powerful party which, by figures, is the MMD. You may want to get out, but you should work out your mathematics first.  

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: You call twenty-six elected hon. Members rebels. Who are you left with? The irrelevant ones have remained. 

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: All the intellectuals have gone. 

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, we have been attacked and strong words have been used by the other side. Therefore, when we express strong points, there should be no reaction. 

Mr Speaker, political life is different from imaginary theories. There are people who think that they alone know better. Those theories are gone. If you want to continue to be relevant in any system, speak the truth and the truth will vindicate you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, it is my belief that all of us, from now onwards, will stop telling donor agencies that there is corruption because there is no proof of that. Nobody has stood up to inform, in confidence, investigative agencies about corruption practices in this country. Why sing kabwalala, when you are a thief yourself? 

Laughter 

Mr Munkombwe:  Everybody is chasing somebody. The people who are involved in deceitful acts are the people who are singing loudest about corruption. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Budget Speech delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. First and foremost, I wish to express my happiness in the survival of three hon. Ministers from a plane accident that happened the other day. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: We are delighted.

Mr Speaker, Zambia is a land of disparities. We have had a growth rate which the hon. Minister talked about of 5 per cent over the last ten years. Yes, indeed, it is a growth. However, this is against the background of unemployment levels rising over the same period at 2 per cent, in a situation where the population is increasing by 3 per cent. In fact, every year, our economy is adding to the list of the unemployed in this country. 

Mr Speaker, we have a country where the economy, as the Government tells us, is growing, and yet the revenues are declining. We have a growing economy, and yet we have increasing poverty and disparities between rural and urban areas and high and low density townships. We are claiming a bumper harvest, and yet we have an increasing number of people going to bed on empty stomachs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: These things are a reality. We do not raise these issues just for the sake of doing so, but for the purpose of bringing us together, as a nation, so that we can address theses disparities together. 

We have a growing economy, and yet for our people to access loans, they face the challenges of high interest rates and law saving rates. All this is happening when we live in a world where, in 2009, many countries put together stimulus packages for their economies. Most of these packages were centred around low interest rates. It is only in Zambia where the situation is the exact opposite of what is obtaining in other countries.

 Mr Speaker, what we are saying, from this side of the House, is that the duty of the elected Government in place is not to cajole the Chairperson of the Federal Reserve Bank to do something which it is already supposed to be doing. We have seen reserve banks in other countries take action by lowering the interest rates. The Bank of Finland does take action to lower the interest rates. The Bank of Zambia has relegated itself to pleading with bankers to have the same rates for our own business people whether small or big. Some businesses are going under because of the same high interest rates. 

Mr Milupi: We are living in a country where there are inconsistencies in the way we come out on our policies. This is especially so with our colleagues on your right. You will find that at, a certain point, they will be up against corruption and will go all over the world constituting cases of corruption, then the next moment, they turn around at 360 degrees and later on at 180 degrees. 

Mr Speaker, at one moment, the same administration would come to this House with an Industrial Minerals Act which says that to exploit a particular type of mineral, you will need to have Zambians involved from 5 per cent all the way to 100 per cent. The next moment, the same administration comes here and changes the idea. The mineral taxation regime which we keep talking about was brought about by this administration and we supported it. However, the next moment, it took a 180 degree turn against the regime.

Mr Speaker, these people on your right keep asking for our support when they bring laws to this House in the name of the President. Sometimes, I wonder how many of you would look at the late President, Dr Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., in the face if he was to come back and took account of the number of things on which you have changed your stance on.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: He will not come back in this life time. However, those of you who preach the message of the first resurrection know that he is going to come back at that time. On that glorious day, we shall all be able to look at each other in the face and see whether we were faithful to each other throughout our life time.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, let me talk about agriculture. Agriculture is central to the lives of our people. Most of our people depend on agriculture for the sustenance of their lives and, therefore, without it, they would perish. That is the fact. It also remains the single most viable option for the diversification of our economy. It has potential to contribute decisively to our revenue base and also to our economy.

This year, the Government has claimed credit for the so-called bumper harvest. The people in the Government have attributed it to their so-called good agricultural policies. That claim is far from the truth. This Government has no good agricultural policies in place.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi:  The only intervention is the Farmers Input Support Programme (FISP). The relatively high yield we have experienced cannot be attributed to the FISP. That is far from the truth.  

Sir, consider this, 2.9 million metric tonnes yield was from maize cultivated over 1.2 million hectares, giving an average of about two tonnes per hectare. This was grown by small-scale and peasant farmers as well as commercial farmers, who get their yield at higher rates. For those farmers on the FISP, it is fair to say that they will have achieved 1 tonne per hectare on average. If, therefore, you look at the half hectare which they are doing, the total yield from the FISP fed maize was somewhere in the region of 250,000 tonnes.

Mr Speaker, the figures which were given, this morning, show that even if you take 250,000 tonnes from around 2.9 million tonnes we have, we would still have 2.7 million tonnes. In this case, we would still have a bumper harvest. Even if the yield from the FISP beneficiaries was zero, we would still have 2.7 million tonnes. According to our definition, this would still be a bumper harvest.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, to illustrate the point further, the lack of Government contribution to this year’s harvest is demonstrated by its lack of preparation of what to do with the crop after harvesting it. No action was taken to ensure an effective marketing process for the crop that we have harvested. Peasant farmers from Chongwe all the way to Chipata and other places have to sleep by the road side to market their crop. Strangely enough, most farmers have still not been paid for their produce despite us being on the verge of beginning another farming season.

Mr Speaker, the lack of a proper collection mode and storage facilities means that a significant proportion of this bumper harvest will be socked by the rains. Worse still, some of the harvest will be infested by insects.

Mr Speaker, further, the inefficiency of our maize growing effort is demonstrated by the admission that any exports of the surplus maize will have to be subsidised by the Zambian Government.

Mr Speaker, in my view, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has lost an opportunity to foster the improvement in the agricultural sector by, among other things, ensuring fair prices of inputs such as fertiliser and fuel. If you did some simple arithmetic calculations, you would tell that there is no justification for a 50kg bag of fertiliser to cost K250,000. It is like we are running a system that robs the poor to give to the rich. That is exactly what is happening. 

Mr Speaker, another opportunity which we have lost out on is that of ensuring that inputs are available as and when they are needed. In addition we have also lost out on the opportunity to put in place effective marketing arrangements that will ensure that farmers get a profitable price for their crop so that they are able to concentrate on what they do best, which is farming and not the selling of their crop. 

I know that the Government copies some of its policies from Europe. During all the times I have been to Europe and many other places, I have never seen a farmer by the road side trying to sell his or her crops.

Mr Speaker, in terms of livestock, the Western and Southern provinces have competitive strategic advantage in as far as the rearing of cattle is concerned. This is the reason both provinces have the most cattle.  For whatever reason, this Government is too keen to ignore this fact. 

Last year, the hon. Minister, in his Budget Speech, established livestock disease free zones in other provinces while leaving out the two provinces.

Mr D. Mwila: Why?

Mr Milupi: This year, in his Budget Speech, he has created animal centres, five in the Northern Province and four in the Luapula Province. If you look at the number of centres established in those areas, you will find that the Western and Southern provinces have only got two each. This, clearly, shows that this Government wants to shift the cattle keeping competitive advantage from these provinces to other areas. Why?

Sir, let me now say a little about the road infrastructure. We all agree that road infrastructure development is essential to foster sustainable development. In his Budget Speech, on page 18, paragraph 124, the hon. Minister has outlined a total of ten major roads whose construction will be undertaken in 2011. Against this, he has allocated K3.09 billion. However, if the Mongu/Kalabo Road works are estimated to cost about K1.2 billion, then quite clearly, these important roads tabulated in his speech cannot be undertaken with this kind of allocation. In my view, it is yet another election promise.

Mr Speaker, last year, in the hon. Minister’s Speech, he promised to work on the Mongu/Kaoma/Tateyoyo Road but, to date, nothing has been done and we are going towards the end of October.

Sir, something would be amiss if I stood up on the Floor of this House and did not talk about the mines and minerals. The minerals taxation regime ushered in the windfall tax which was introduced by the MMD Government. The hon. Minister’s own figures, in his Budget Speech, of 720,000 tonnes projected production of copper in 2010, at an average price of $7,000 per tonne, clearly demonstrates the size of revenue loss that the Banda Administration continues to inflict upon the Zambian people.

Earlier in the year, I estimated that the revenue loss would be between $500 million to $600 million. This is a colossal figure. This is only on copper. Cobalt on the other hand, seems to have completely disappeared off the radar.

Mr Kapeya: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: This Government no longer talks about cobalt, and yet Zambia is one of the three largest producers of cobalt estimated at 7,500 tonnes per year, with a price of about $50,000 per tonne. This attracts extra revenue to this country of about $375 million. How much of this has gone to the National Treasury? I would say zero.

Mr Lubinda: Zero!

Mr Milupi: Of course, besides other by-products like gold, silver and others.

Mr Speaker, thus, the colonial legacy where Zambia’s copper revenues went to build sky scrappers in Salisbury, continues under this MMD Administration. The only difference is that, now, Zambia’s mineral wealth is developing countries outside Africa …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … when the country is under the rule of a Zambian Government led by Zambians as opposed to the colonial administration.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Sir, there are those of us who will never tire of reminding this administration that its inexplicable u-turns are causing irreparable damage to Zambia’s development.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Our principled stand has nothing whatsoever to do with our so-called failure as former Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) employees. That is if at all we failed. 

Mr Speaker, in those days, this country was battling with copper prices of $1,600 per tonne or any price around $2,200 per tonne. Any price above $2,200 was capped by the Government because there was no windfall tax at that time. All the money above that average price was taken by the Government. Sometimes, I wonder how many of these investors, today, would continue to operate their mines if the copper price fell to $1,600?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Ninshi baya!

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo mudala!

Mr Milupi: So, when we praise ourselves for having sustained the production in the mines, let us not forget to allocate that praise where it is due. It is the gracious hand of our Mighty and Heavenly Father that pushes the prices up. The good prices of the minerals is the only reason most of these investors are still around. Are we not aware that when the copper price fell to $3,000 per tonne, some of these investors approached the Government with a view to shutting down their operations? Are we not aware of that?

Mr D. Mwila: Yes! Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has done wonders by putting together the revenue he expects from mineral taxation. He has put the figure at K1,858 trillion for 2011. With the exchange rate being at K5,000 per dollar it gives us $371 million. The projected production for next year is 750,000 metric tonnes, with the copper price projected at $8,000 per tonne. By the way, other experts like Goldman Sachs are projecting that the copper price will be at $11,000 per tonne. If we become conservative and put the price at $8,000 per tonne, it means that the revenue we shall get from copper alone, forget about cobalt and others, will be K6 billion.

Hon. Member: Bulela!

Mr Milupi: This revenue that you propose to get …

Hon. Members: Dollars!

Mr Milupi: Oh yes, $6 billion. The revenue you intend to get from copper, through mineral taxation, is $371 million, which is at 6 per cent of the earnings. It is actually 6 per cent. Is this administration being fair to the Zambian people by only realising so little? There is no other line on the revenue side which gives you anything from the minerals.

Mr Sing’ombe: Bulela!

Mr Milupi: If you look at the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces where most of these minerals come from, are the communities not worse off now than they were then? Bad state of roads, casualisation, ….

Mr D. Mwila: Shame! Shame!

Mr Milupi: … loss of employment and training opportunities are common occurrences in most towns. Functions which are supposed to fully be performed by Zambians are now in the hands of expatriates. That is the situation that you are creating for the people. You would serve well if you listened to some of the things that we say. If you can correct yourselves based upon what we say, this country would benefit greatly from most of your programmes

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Ni bamalukula!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Budget Speech. Sir, I want to start by …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Shakafuswa: … congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the Budget Address Speech he delivered to this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: But he is not saying, hear, hear!

Sir, as I mentioned in my previous debates, a budget is an attempt by anyone to see how he can match his revenue and expenditure. At any given time, every one of us in this House would come up with a different budget. However, I shall put that thought aside and debate real issues.

Mr Speaker, despite having a K20 trillion plus budget and considering the many needs of the people of Zambia, everyone in this House will agree with me that we need a budget in the range of K40 to K50 trillion. That kind of budget, at least, will enable us move this country forward. 

Sir, we can be proud of a 6 per cent GDP growth, today, considering the rate at which our population is growing and the needs of our country? I believe that to emancipate the people of Zambia will take us over fifty years to alleviate poverty and make this country a paradise.

This is what we should be looking at and I think that when most of the hon. Members from both sides of the House debate, they talk about real issues. The Government is talking about the attempt to develop and the Opposition is talking about what is left to be done. Thus, we must look at in its totality and acknowledge that there has been an attempt to develop although there still remains a lot more to be done.

Mr Speaker, about three decades ago, the tiger nations, today, were not on the same footing with Zambia. These are countries which do not have the abundant natural resources that we have. However, today, we are going to Malaysia to learn the Malaysian formula on how to develop our country. Yet, this is a country, which not so long ago, was not on the same footing with Zambia.

Mr Speaker, this is why we should stand, as Zambians, and ask ourselves where we have gone wrong because this country has not been shut. It has been open all this time. Where have we gone wrong where, today, even Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia are doing better than us? What have these countries harnessed to be able to attain what they have? When we talk of 7 or 6 per cent economic growth, it cannot be felt. If someone asked us to translate this growth, we can only account for it in the areas where the growth has been felt. At the moment, the people employed in the construction, mining and agriculture sectors are the ones that might have a feel of this growth because that is where there is an expansion in the rate of employment. 

However, Mr Speaker, as regards agriculture, what growth can we say the peasant farmers we are attributing this growth to have attained? Are you sure they have employed additional people to help them increase their yield?

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, are you sure they have gone beyond their usual farming levels to help them have more money in their pockets? Are you sure the money they have received has gone beyond their subsistence level of demand for education, food and health?  When we look at such issues, we should ask ourselves where we are as a nation.

Mr Speaker, I can attest to the fact that there has been an attempt to create more school places. On this one, I am grateful for having a K27 billion worth project of a high school in my constituency. However, this is the only high school in Katuba. So, this means that the children in Kabile, which is the farthest point in Katuba, will not get school places at Momba High School because by the time they enrol, the school places would have been filled up.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, as much as we may brag about the positive achievement as regards school construction, there is still a very large gap. As such, our success, as a Government, should be measured by our narrowing the gap. Indeed, there has been an attempt to build a lot of schools and some are on our cards, but how far apart are these schools? In my constituency, we have a basic school, which is within a radius of about 10 km from where people reside. Therefore, we see young girls and boys walking 10 km to get to the school. I think what we should be looking at now is how to bridge this gap so that, at least, the girl child can walk shorter distances of about 1 or 5km to get to a school because that would be okay. When we ask ourselves whether we are bridging the gaps, these are some of the things we should be looking at if we are to feel proud. 

Mr Speaker, a budget is an estimation which can or cannot be met. Today, we are talking about budgets, but we should not depend on other people’s money to achieve our objectives. Much as this is an estimate, we are lagging behind in the payment of debt. There are so many people who have provided goods and services to the Government, such as those in road construction, who have not been paid.

Mr Speaker, there is a road in my constituency, 15 miles Chombela Road, which was awarded, last year, but, to date, has not been worked on because of lack of funds. We cannot even get money from the fuel levy to give to the constructors for the certificates which are ready. We are now approaching the rainy season and this means that these roads will not be completed this year. So, while part of the road has been worked on, the cost of working on what is left of it will be higher next year. Therefore, I would be happy with a situation where the budget estimates would meet the aspirations of the people. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the Government for the assurance to tar the Keembe/Mumbwa Road. However, that is only one road in the centre of Chibombo District and it is the only one that has been given funding. What about the Mungule Road meeting Keembe, the Shimukuni Road, the other roads in Musushi and Keembe itself and the feeder roads in Katuba? So, this means that if the people only have to see development through the Keembe/Mumbwa Road, the rest of Chibombo will not see development. 

Mr Speaker, this comes back to what people are saying. A budget may be the income being talked about, but the people are saying that the Government should look to other areas where it can extend its tentacles in order to meet their budgetary obligations. We, as a Government, should not be rigid and say we cannot do this because there are countries which are making their money out of taxing.

Mr Speaker, some of the resources this country has cannot be found anywhere in the world. If these guys, the so-called investors, are threatening to walk away upon being taxed, they are joking because they will not go anywhere in the midst of the demand for copper. After the melt down, the demand for electronics has gone up and electronics go side by side with copper. 

Mr Speaker, I have seen another trend coming up, especially in China. If, today, Vedanta was not able to supply China with copper, it would finance somebody here in Zambia to produce the copper so that the company making electronics in China does not go under. This way, China is applying a futuristic kind of investment. Other than that, there have been people who have sought investment in this country because the market is there. Now, for people to suggest that the investment will be withdrawn from this country upon raising tax to a given level is a lie.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The words ‘guys’ and ‘lie’ are unparliamentary.

Mr Shakafuswa: I withdraw those words.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The word ‘okay’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Shakafuswa: I withdraw those unparliamentary words.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Withdraw all the unparliamentary words you have used. 

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I withdraw those unparliamentary words.

Mr Lubinda: Do it one at a time iwe!

Mr Shakafuswa: Zayelo!

Mr Speaker, we have the opportunity now. My elder cousin, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, has this opportunity to impose these taxes and he will not be in that position forever, but in history, his name will go down as one who tried to give the Zambians what they deserved. If, at the rate we are going, we think we will become a developed country, the economics say no. 

Mr Speaker, at 6 per cent, 7 per cent or even 10 per cent growth, we will not achieve anything in the next forty years or so and the problems of the people of Zambia will continue rising. 

The demands for our children are becoming sophisticated. Their demands are not like there were in our time. If their demands are becoming complicated, it means that, in schools, there is a need for e-learning and computers, unlike us whose demands were just pencils and exercise books. How are we going to meet these demands that are becoming complicated? 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning knows the background of how the ministry came up with the windfall tax. We were given a task to find a way of how the people at the bottom were going to feel that there was a Government. As the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we were asked how a person who stays in Shang’ombo or Katuba could have a touch of something from the Government in place. As a Government, we realised that, indeed, we were giving them schools, but also took into consideration their need for roads. We found that the demand for development in this country was so enormous that, at the rate of growth and as a derivative of our gross national product from where we derive our Budget, we were not going to meet the aspirations of the people. That is why we undertook a study. 

Mr Speaker, in Scandinavia, the people who are getting gas from their resources are taxed up to 60 per cent. Let someone challenge me on that. Up to 60 per cent of their proceeds go to the Government as revenue. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: The rest is what they save in their pockets. Today, when the same company from those countries comes here and we tell them to pay us a maximum of 47 per cent of their profits, not because of their innovation, but because the place and climate has become good, they say, “No, if you do that, we will walk out of your country.” 

Mr Speaker, I think that is colonisation of the worst kind. As a Zambian, I feel pity for my MMD Government under the able leadership of Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda because we are being held at ransom by these people who come with kind gloves. They are not kind at all. These are the people whose cities have been built by our wealth. Which European country has wealth? It is plundered wealth from our countries which is building those cities which we go to admire. Now, we have become their puppets who are perpetuating the continuation of plunder of our resources without recourse and without the resources emancipating us so that we can stand as their equal. 

Mr Speaker, resources are depleted in Europe. They are only in Africa and Zambia is one country which is endowed with them. At the rate we are going, we will end up with holes to show our grandchildren. By the time all the resources are depleted, we will have no roads. The Mongu/Kalabo Road would have been built, but it would have been eaten by the sand because we would have no money to maintain it, as there would be no resources.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, what are we going to give our children? That is why I like one of the leaders whom I do not want to mention who said:

“Gentlemen, if we do not know what we are doing, let us not mine. If we do not know how to approach these things, let us leave it to our children. Maybe, they will be brave enough to come and claim that which is ours.”

 So, it is either you leave it or take it. If you take it, give us what we want. However, at the rate we are going, we are just going to be used as a supplier of raw materials. So, at the end of the day, should we be proud that these so-called economic zones we are creating are bringing in traders to invest in Zambia? Why do we not have these economic zones so that the Chinese can come and build the spares for the African market in Chambeshi? Why can we not have the copper processed here instead of going to Japan or China where it is put into electronic gadgets? We should also have the gadgets for the African market, which is growing, so that they come and invest into that market. 

Mr Speaker, now, we are bringing investors and giving them tax free incentives so that they create jobs, which they are not. Instead, they are creating poverty because, at the end of the day, what they are getting out of our country is more than what they are putting in.

Mr Speaker, talking about jobs, somebody is getting US$6 billion and if we were to account properly for our raw materials, they are getting about US$20 billion from this country. However, at the end of the day, we have to beg them to return something, and yet in their countries, they pay tax of up to 60 per cent. I do not think these so-called investors should be looked at as messiahs because they are not. It is just that we, poor Africans, want to associate ourselves with big business. They will come and have tea with you. They will sponsor a trip to visit them in China and then they will ask for rebates and recessions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Shakafuswa: You are not helping those guys. You are selling the country by giving those guys rebates. Try to push them and come to a middle line.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: As for those who are happy for selling this country, I say history will be written. If you think our children will be as misdirected as we are, today, you will be surprised that some of us will be labelled as traitors in the annals of the history of this country. We will be held accountable and people will say, “We have been eating with mabunu.” This is because we want to live the mabunu’s life and show that we can enjoy in the same way that they do in the midst of poverty. I think some of us should even stop wearing ties in view of the poverty which is down there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: We should even stop shining in these luxury public utilities. Looking at the poverty in Zambia, there is still a lot of work that has to be done. We have to stand for the people of Zambia.

 I will not say that the Budget is bad because it is based on resources which are at the disposal of the Government. However, more can be done so that the gap is bridged in to enable the person in Shang’ombo and Katuba have a feel of the Government’s presence. They will not have a feel of the Government’s presence if, in Kapopola, there are only two classrooms. How do you feel the Government’s presence? The road going to Kapopola is non-existent. There are no bridges along Namayani en route to Muchenje, and yet the Ministry of Works and Supply has been budgeting for these bridges year in and year out, but no money has been released. How are those people now touching the development of this country? How do we tell them about touching development? 

Mr Speaker, yes, the 2011 election will be very easy to win if there will be no people who will say the Government has failed to deliver this and that because it does not want to release the money. Otherwise, it will also be difficult. As we stand here, we should know that we have challenges. I do not think the people of Zambia do not see. That time when you could go and cheat people is long gone. Today, if the Government is not able to deliver, the people will see this deficiency. Let us make an attempt to deliver because, maybe, someone else can come and do a better job.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Shakafuswa: My MMD Government should always be on the look out because the song will be a song of the gap that we think we have alleviated, but have not done so. I think it is high time we stood up and faced the challenge regarding the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I am grateful to debate the Budget Speech of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I would like to talk about the problems that this country is facing. Firstly, I would like to talk about the issue of fiscal discipline and revenue collection and those boffins on the Cairo Road, who are enjoying our money and are being protected by that Government. Furthermore, I would also like to say something on the issue of those miners on the Copperbelt enjoying our money with the massive incentives .

Hon. Member was close to Hon. Matongo.

Mr Matongo: Please, get out from here.

Laughter 

Mr Matongo: I want to address two things and I am quite sympathetic with the Executive. We have been spewing out, literally giving incentives, but what return are we getting from them? We have covered the banking sector with all sorts of no intervention because we do not want exchange controls, but what is it that they are paying to the ordinary Zambian in return for our generosity?

Mr Speaker, despite the current ‘bumpiest’ of harvest of maize, as they call it in the language of those on the other side, the price of mealie-meal is still at K55,000. Now, the first lesson that one learns in an economics class is the law of demand and supply. There is plenty of supply, alright, and there’s relative demand. Why is mealie-meal still expensive in the midst of a bumper harvest?

Laughter

Mr Matongo: That is the first question I want an answer to. The second question is where the fiscal discipline is. Why put the best men in your land in some takataka aircraft that cannot fly properly to go and do the best of things for you?

Mr Speaker: Order! 

What is takataka?

Mr Matongo: What are we doing?

Mr Speaker: Order! 

What is takataka?

Mr Matongo: I will define it as inordinate, wrecked or next to the wretched of the earth. That is what takataka is.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, where is value for money when our own people cannot support their children to go school because when they earn K1 million, they will be taxed? These are the issues I want to debate, today, and I think I will have all the time I need. First of all, I want my friends on your right to listen carefully and understand that we do not have to spend a lot, but just a little to bring more development to the poor people in Pemba.  

Mr Speaker, what reason do I have standing here to approve a Budget of K20 trillion when the allocations in the K17 trillion Budget, for less than a year, has not been disbursed and we only have three months before the year ends. Projects such as Ndondi Community School and Kawambwa Basic School have not been funded. However, I am now being asked to expend more money in the new Budget when little projects such as these are not implemented. 

At the moment, the famous Chinese road equipment is stranded all over the country. Hon. Munkombwe can confirm that one was moved from Pemba to Namwala. It has not gone back to Pemba, to date, because there is no fuel and, therefore, roads are not being worked on in my area. In all sincerity and honesty, I do not expect my brother there (pointing at the Government Front Bench), whom I have a lot of respect for, to ask me to …

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: Oh, are you naturally jealous? Your other nephew …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: His other uncle is Hon. Musokotwane, who is asking me to approve K20 trillion, but he cannot release money for 20 to 40 litres of diesel for graders to work on the road from Pemba to Gembo Mission. For God’s sake, are we being serious?

Mr Speaker, honesty of purpose is to deliver development to the people. I want to support the Government of the day …

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: … despite being in the Opposition, but those on your right should not just say “Hear, hear” without delivering.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: We are not in the Opposition to fight. 

Mr Kapeya: Exactly.

Mr Matongo: We have better things to do. However, we have chosen a political career so that we help the Government in times when it is not properly advised. Surely, the hon. Minister for the Southern Province cannot have this, for lack of a better term, well-deserved Chinese equipment parked because there is no fuel. This equipment is now being used to carry sixty-one chiefs and we only have forty-one chiefs in the Southern Province, to go to Namwala to visit my young brother there (pointing at Major Chizhyuka), at the expense of road works. Is that ordinary? Is that not inordinate of takataka?

Laughter

Mr Matongo: What else can that be? We want to work with hon. Members on your right, but the Government needs to look at these small issues of development in our constituencies. At the moment, maize that was delivered to depots in Moyo, Siamuleya, Habanyuka and Kasiya has not been paid for. For God’s sake, why should I sing praises of my good friends on your right, whom I love so much, when my people are suffering? These are the small issues that we need to be attended to.

Mr Speaker, having spoken about global issues for the last nine years, I have, today, chosen to speak about Pemba because I have come to the conclusion that it is better to speak about domestic affairs. So, when is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives paying the people who have supplied maize to the depots? It is no use giving us statements that are not backed by money in the bank in Choma. K150 million for payment of farmers must have been in Choma by now. It is a fact that farmers have not been paid because I have been to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operative to confirm this. These are simple and straight forward deliverables. It is because of such issues that I am forced to conclude that the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and other institutions tasked to collect money on behalf of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning are failing to do so. 

I want to talk about hospitals, roads, teachers and many other issues.  Most of all, I want to find out why the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has not been disbursed. It means the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is not getting the money from the agencies that are mandated to collect revenue on behalf of the Treasury.  It is as simple as that or, maybe, through fiscal indiscipline, money has been diverted to something else.

Mr Lubinda: It is being used to fly to China.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, on the other hand, if the Government agencies are not collecting enough money, it, therefore, means that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning’s tax network is limited. There are money people making billions of Kwacha on Cairo Road and in markets. What is wrong with bringing them into the tax net? I know somebody will argue that collecting radio or television fees is more expensive than collecting tax from civil servants. However, for how long are we going to collect money from the captive poor civil servants and others in the public sector? 

Mr Speaker with your support and help, I call upon the Government to expand the tax base. There is enough money in this country that is supposed to be brought in. I do not believe that there will be a government that is undisciplined fiscally, but I am dictated to believe there is some mismatch here. 

What reason do you have not to fund the Zambia Police Service, Judiciary and other institutions properly if enough money is being collected? Are those who are seated that side and talking too much consuming more or less? Therefore, I appeal to hon. Members to help the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to see to it that funds are released for the intended projects. 

In conclusion, let me say that I supported last year’s incentives in the mining sector.  About K193 billion was lost by this country in terms of revenue. Now, I want the hon. Minister to inform the House how much has been recovered, to date, regarding that loss since there were incentives given to the mining sector.

Mr Speaker, not too long ago, the Government stated that the windfall tax was being removed to introduce the variable tax to capture any windfall gains that may have arisen in that sector. How much money has the country earned as a result of this measure? The Government further stated that it would introduce measures which would allow hedging income to be part of the total income earned by the mines for tax purposes. What have we gained from that measure a year after its implementation? The people of Pemba want to know what this country has gained from such measures. 

Mr Speaker, the other measure was the increase of the capital allowance to a 100 per cent as an investment incentive. What have the gains out of those decisions that were made by the Government been? Never say never when making public policy pronouncements. I am pleased that President Banda stated that he would ignore those that would talk about windfall tax. By my interpretation, the President wants to be given other alternative forms of taxation which are backed by good reasoning. I would like to challenge the hon. Minister to inform the President what benefits have accrued to the country over the one year that these incentives have been in place.

Mr Speaker, we mean well and are determined to make sure that the Government of the day works well. That is our policy here. We do not intend to be malicious, but to simply ask to be given what belongs to us. As for my brothers and sisters on this side, they all know we are in it together. 

Hon. Member: Which side?

Mr Matongo: Whichever ever side listens to advice which is making sense. I hope Hon. Munkombwe represents those that say things that make sense and shall help us to know the returns on the investments that we made.

Mr Speaker, it is not good for me to speak at length. I have been here for nine years now.

Hon. Member: Finally ...

Mr Matongo: Yes, you are saying finally only because you are bankrupt of ideas.

Mr Munkombwe: Thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I have suggestions to make to the Government. I am not going to insult them, but cajole them to consult me more so that, together, we can move forward. This is the only reason the people of Pemba sent me here. They did not send me to a boxing ring. They sent me to a chamber where people think and exchange ideas as they debate. So, if you are fed up, march out. Go...

Laugh

Mr Matongo: ... and we shall be here to correct the MMD Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: What is wrong about cutting down your expenditure? Why do you want to be the first to criticise all the time? The casualisation of the Public Service employees is being condemned by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, though he is not in the House, when his Permanent Secretary is on contract. We must change our mindset. When the mines casualise, they are just imitating us because they have seen that the Permanent Secretaries we have are casual employees. What has happened to the Public Service that has employees on a permanent basis?

Mr Speaker, yes, we know that there is always a first track programme in place. The bright boys and girls will go faster than the slower ones in climbing the ladder. Why have you introduced the casualisation of employees in the Public Service, and yet you condemn the mines for the same thing? Have you questioned why they are doing this? Casualisation is a product of the MMD Government and must be stopped henceforth. 

We want a Secretary to the Cabinet that has been tested through a mill like the one we have now. We do not want a Permanent Secretary to be picked from Choma just because he moblised people for a meeting at Butala House when he does not know how it was built. It was built by us when we used to work for the Zambia State Insurance Company. You just do not appoint Permanent Secretaries anyhow. That is not the way things work.

 I appeal to the Government to change its attitude. You cannot enjoy power as an hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when you are watching the Governor of the Bank of Zambia say that there shall be no controls over the interest rates. Interest rates should not be high for no reason. The interest rates are so high such that the poor people cannot borrow. One has to be a member of a non-governmental organisation (NGO), which is in good standing with the bank, in order to borrow money.

 Therefore, I appeal to the Government to see to it that the interest rates in this country are lowered.  The cost of energy and the interest rates in this country are a hindrance to economic development. I want to live up to a day when the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Energy and Water Development will start to dictate to the institutions responsible for various services  that they need to negotiate with the ordinary Zambians regarding the pricing mechanism. 

I rest my case.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Presidential Affairs (Mr Mukuma): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion of the Budget Speech presented to Parliament by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Musokotwane.

Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate the hon. Minister for a wonderful Budget Speech which has not only demonstrated the ability and capacity of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda’s Government to perform, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

You may continue.

Mr Mukuma: ... but has also given confidence to the Zambian people that this hard working Government is on target with the vision of making Zambia a middle income nation by 2030.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, in order for us to appreciate what the MMD Government has done and will continue to do for this country, it is necessary to reflect on the political, socio and economic situation which this country was in about two decades ago when the MMD took over the helm of this country. In 1990, Zambia was under a one-party state going through a severe economic turbulence which resulted in acute shortages of essential goods and services, poorly maintained infrastructures and loss of our international credit worthiness. The MMD was founded to reintroduce multi-party politics in Zambia, rebuild the crumbling economy and restore our global credit worthiness. This Government is on track with this important national assignment.
 
Mr Speaker, since 1991, the MMD Government has undertaken fundamental structural reforms to foster growth in the economy. Ground breaking measures had to be adopted and implemented to get Zambia out of the economic quagmire. Today, Zambia boasts of a high economic growth rate and a single digit inflation rate. 

Mr Speaker, one of the bold measures taken by the MMD Government to accelerate development in Zambia, which should not slip out of the minds of Zambians, was the reintroduction of multiparty politics which came with the freedom of speech and expression.

Mr Speaker, the MMD Government should be commended for this important achievement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: This is a great achievement because there are now many players in the political arena that provide checks and balances on the Government. It was absolutely necessary to reintroduce multiparty politics because the MMD Government strongly believes that competitive politics can accelerate development through constructive criticism and transparency in the management of national issues. 

Mr Speaker, regrettably, the nation is not getting the maximum benefits of democracy because the concept is misunderstood here in Zambia. 

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: People are using the expanded freedom of expression to insult the party and its leadership that brought democracy to this country. They are encouraging violence and disrespect for authority.

I appeal to my colleagues on your left, Mr Speaker, to break with the past and adopt new politics which put emphasis on team work and development in unity, irrespective of political affiliations.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: We should learn to give credit where it is due.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Politics of hatred, personal attacks, unproductive criticisms, tribalism and violence will only derail this nation’s mission to develop in peace and unity.

 Apart from accepting and encouraging democracy, the MMD Government also embarked on Public Service reforms to improve the efficiency and cost effectiveness of Public Service delivery. These reforms include revision of public procurement practices, strengthening of the oversight role of Parliament on public finance management issues, introduction of activity-based budgeting and enhancing the capacity of the Office of the Auditor-General to mention, but a few.

The improvement in the accountability and utilisation of public resources in public institutions, today, is largely a consequence of these reforms implemented by the MMD Government.

 Mr Speaker, it is common for people to commend the work of the Auditor-General’s Office without extending appreciation to the Government which has taken deliberate action to make that office effective. As a result of the improved output from such institutions of good governance such as  the Auditor-General’s Office, the Government of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has further introduced several policies, procedures, guidelines and institutions to enhance accountability and transparency in the management of national resources. These additional measures show strong political will and serious commitment by President Rupiah Banda’s Government to continue the fight against corruption.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: It is, therefore, not correct to state that President Rupiah Banda’s administration is losing grip on the fight against corruption. Instead, the fight has been intensified and resource utilisation in most public institutions has significantly improved.

Mr Speaker, I appeal to all well-meaning Zambians to refrain from singing the song of corruption as doing so only places a bad name tag on Zambia. Corruption is much talked about in Zambia as a smear campaign against the Government by those who would like to ascend to power through the back door.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mukuma: By so doing, we are not only damaging the image of our country, but also that of the Zambians to the outside world.

Mr Speaker, coming to the Budget Speech presented by Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane on Friday, 8th October, 2010, it is clear that under the able leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, Zambia is assured of a bright future.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: The Government is still vigorously pursuing the diversification programme of the economy to reduce dependency on mining and measures are being taken to ensure that the economic gains achieved trickle down to the less privileged and the vulnerable groups of our society.

The diversification programme has, so far, produced positive results as evidenced by the bumper harvest in the agricultural sector and increased activities in the tourism, construction and trading sectors which are rapidly changing the face of Zambia through construction of shopping malls, tourist facilities and other supporting infrastructure.

Hon. Government member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: For the Zambians to gain from the economic growth the country is experiencing, it is important to spread the economic activities into rural areas and step up investment in sectors that have potential to generate employment and create wealth for the Zambians.

 The sectors identified for priority investment are agriculture, tourism, transport, construction, trading and manufacturing, which are rural-based, and the Government has put in place policies and strategies to allow Zambians participate in the development of these sectors.

 Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, not correct to state that the Government has neglected the needs of the rural people and that the majority of the rural Zambians are still wallowing in poverty. The Government has taken all the necessary measures to address the plight of the rural people and reduce poverty.

For example, the Farmers Input Support Programme (FISP) was introduced by the MMD Government to help uplift the poor out of poverty and improve food security of the rural communities. 

The Government is injecting billions of kwacha in the rural communities through the purchase of agricultural produce by the Food Reserve Agency(FRA). The Food Security Packs and Cash Transfer programmes …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: … are targeted at the vulnerable, but viable people in the rural areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Other programmes targeting the uplifting of the living standards of Zambians are the construction and rehabilitation of schools, clinics, rural roads and provision of clean water. Mr Speaker, these developments can be seen and touched in every corner of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the major reasons Zambians are behind in the race to create wealth and reduce poverty is because the majority of us lack innovation and entrepreneurial mind sets.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: The solution to poverty reduction is to adopt new attitudes towards development and find a role we can play to remove poverty in our homes.

Mr Speaker, it must be understood and appreciated that the many and complex problems in development and poverty reduction cannot be resolved overnight and by the Government alone. They require combined effort of the Government and churches, NGOs and civil society for any growth in the economy to have a significant impact on the lives of people.

Mr Speaker, what we see, today, is the shifting of blame on the Government for any failure to satisfy the needs of people without asking ourselves what we have done to help ourselves or, indeed, to complement the efforts of the Government.

What we should know is that, the private sector is the engine driving the economy in Zambia today. The same is happening world over. As leaders, we should educate our people to be innovative and have the drive to use the enabling environment created by the Government to start up economic ventures that will bring money into our pockets and chase away poverty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, with regard to the issue of the agricultural sector, I am extremely proud that the nation has a bumper harvest, this year, which is a sure way of putting money in the pockets of people and ensuring food security, both at household and national levels. I am, however, disappointed to hear negative remarks from hon.  Members of this august House concerning the marketing of the agricultural produce. 

Mr Speaker, let us not be idle spectators and leave the marketing of agricultural produce to the Government alone. We should have a positive response to the challenges we face in the agricultural sector and consider any increase in production as another window of business opportunity for Zambians to engage in grain marketing. As a nation, we win nothing by failing to provide a well-organised and reliable market for our produce.

Mr Speaker, we have all noted, from both the Presidential Speeches to Parliament and the 2011 Budget Address, that the Government has increased allocation to the agricultural sector and, therefore, production, next year, is expected to be higher than this year. Let us encourage Zambian entrepreneurs to join the Government in preparing to buy all the crops that will be produced by our peasant farmers instead of being spectators waiting to see if the Government will provide the required market. The task of developing a viable market for the agriculture sector is not for the Government alone, but all Zambians. If we leave this business opportunity open, foreigners will come and set up grain marketing companies …

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: … to handle our produce and we will only have ourselves to blame.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to comment on the developmental programmes that the Government is implementing. At the time His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, came into power, in 2008, a number of major development projects had either stalled or were incomplete. Some of the projects such as the tarring of the Mutanda/Chavuma Road …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: … and Mongu/Kalabo Road had spanned three Presidents. The people of the North-Western Province and Kalabo District were almost losing hope of having a tarred road ever reaching their areas, …

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mukuma: … but President Banda’s administration has managed to source all the money required to tar these roads in less than two years. What gives more credit to President Banda is that he has managed to complete or raise resources for the completion of long-standing projects against a backdrop of the global financial crisis.

Mr Speaker, completing on-going projects is not a weakness, but one of the outstanding benefits to the nation for maintaining the same party in the Government. Therefore, we are calling on the Zambians to vote for the MMD in 2011 …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: … because of the need to maintain continuity of the developmental programmes that have already been initiated. Therefore, there is no merit in one stating that President Banda is riding on the developmental programmes that were initiated by others.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: In my opinion, President Banda has demonstrated exceptional ability to perform and the nation stands to benefit a lot by giving him another five-year mandate …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: … to rule this country and continue implementing the MMD developmental programmes which are …

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 20th October, 2010.