DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 28th October, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following Members took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Cosmas Moono

Given Mung’omba 
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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MUSONWEZHI BRIDGE

132. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the Government would construct a bridge across Musonwezhi River in Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) what the estimated cost of constructing the bridge was.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, the cost estimates for the construction of a bridge across the Musonwezhi River in Mufumbwe has been made and construction of the bridge will commence when resources are made available since it has not been budgeted for in the 2011 Budget. The estimated cost for constructing this bridge is K3 billion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kamondo: Mr Speaker, I would like to know how long it will take for this money to be made available because this bridge has not been worked on for almost ten years now.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, the problem we are facing with many projects is that we do not have enough resources despite the willingness to implement them. We, therefore, hope that the rehabilitation of this bridge will be included in the next budget. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this bridge was not included in the 2011 Budget.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, there are many bridges and roads that need to be included in the annual work plan, but the constraint of resources makes it difficult to include all of them. Like I have said, this bridge will be included in our work plan at an appropriate time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to know if the Government will source funds for this project, as has been the case with other important projects that have not been budgeted for, since the Musonwezhi Bridge is very important for Mufumbwe.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we have no specific reason to prioritise the rehabilitation of the Musonwezhi Bridge because there are many other bridges that require attention. If the hon. Member thinks that we should work on it as soon as possible for reasons best known to him, that is not our view. Our efforts are intended to develop the whole country. Alternatively, the hon. Member has some money from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which he can, maybe, use for that project.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

FOOD RESERVE AGENCY

134. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how much money the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) spent on the procurement of tarpaulins in 2008 and 2009;

(b) who the suppliers of the tarpaulins were; and

(c) whether tender procedures were followed by FRA.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, there were no tarpaulins purchased in 2008 and 2009. However, 200 tarpaulins were purchased and paid for in 2008 at a cost of K1,109,555,000.

The suppliers of the tarpaulins were Shaftex Limited and Agrotech Limited. The supply of the tarpaulins was awarded in accordance with the prescribed Zambian public tender procedures.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, the 200 tarpaulins cost K1,109,555,000. How much ...

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. Is it procedural?

Mr Mukanga: Yes, Mr Speaker. Is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House in order to bring Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) cadres outside the Main Gate of Parliament Buildings to insult hon. Members of Parliament as they come in? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Obviously, this is news to the House and will require sending an emissary to ascertain who is insulting who, where and, of course, who has sent them over here. I am certain that no abusive cadres have been allowed to come here through the Main Gate of Parliament Buildings because no rowdy persons are allowed through the Main Gate which is the only gate they can come through and, obviously, they are not in this Chamber. If they were here, you would have seen and heard them insulting. If this happened, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, dealing with your immunities and privileges, give all of you powers of arrest. So, the hon. Member for Kantanshi should arrest those cadres insulting him.

The hon. Member for Kanchibiya may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that each tarpaulin cost about K28 million.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

You may continue.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, why did they not go for a Chinese firm which tendered for about K12 million for each tarpaulin?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, when the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPP) is handling tenders, it does not only consider the price, but also looks at other things which the companies offer.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, since 200 tarpaulins were purchased in 2007, how many tarpaulins are in stock at the moment?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, there were 200 tarpaulins in 2007, but there are more than 2,000 tarpaulins at the moment, including those procured in 2007.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, what was taken into consideration when buying expensive tarpaulins instead of cost saving?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, one of the factors was quality. Secondly, the procured tarpaulins were within reach. Thirdly, the company that won the tender promised to deliver them on time.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, what is the lifespan of the tarpaulins?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the lifespan of the tarpaulins depends on the way they are kept but, usually, they can be used for more than ten years.

I thank you, Sir.

MATERNAL MORTALITY

135. Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to reduce maternal mortality in the country; and

(b) what the current maternal mortality rates in the country were.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Kalila) (on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr Simbao)): Mr Speaker, the Government has shown commitment to the reduction in maternal mortality by ensuring that the necessary policies and strategic plans are in place, and these include the following:

(i) National Reproductive Policy;

(ii) Countdown Recommendations for Zambia;

(iii) MNCH Communications Strategy;

(iv) Comprehensive Abortion Care Guidelines;

(v) Safe-Motherhood Guidelines;

(vi) Upgraded Family Planning Guidelines; and

(vii) Mainstreaming of the Maputo Plan of Action.

Mr Speaker, in order to enhance service delivery, the Government has further taken specific actions to address the following:

Human Resource

The Zambia Health Workers Retention Scheme is a programme that gives more incentives to health workers in remote or hard-to-reach areas. Through this programme, almost all the district hospitals have doctors at the moment. The scheme is now being extended to other health workers, including nurses, paramedics, clinical officers and tutors. 

Training

The ministry has increased the intake for nurses and also re-opened closed nursing schools. Direct entry into the midwifery programme has been reintroduced. This means that midwives are trained in two years as opposed to four years which include basic training for three years and one year training for midwifery. There is the two-year training for clinical officers to become licentiates. Licentiates are able to manage complications of pregnancies as well as other surgical interventions.

With regard to infrastructure involving hospitals, the ministry is upgrading five clinics at district hospitals in Lusaka and building twenty-six hospitals in other districts. The new hospitals will need maternity wings and theatres. Therefore, women with pregnancy-related complications will have access to emergency services.

The construction of twenty-eight maternity annexes with twenty-eight staff houses is in progress and eight annexes and houses have been completed so far.

Mothers’ Shelters

The Ministry of Health is building mothers’ shelters at hospitals and health centres to enable more women deliver in health facilities. Thus, women who live far away from health facilities wait there for at least two weeks before delivery so that when they go into labour, they can deliver from the health facilities.

Referral Systems

The zonal clinics being equipped to handle emergencies will make it easier for patients to be referred from the satellite centres.  Land cruisers have been bought for all districts to help with the referrals, but the Ministry of Health is still trying to acquire more vehicles to make the referral system efficient. All health centres that handle deliveries have radios and the ministry is trying to ensure that the vehicles are in working conditions.

Community

The safe motherhood action groups are oriented to sensitise the community on danger signs during pregnancy and the importance of delivering from the clinics. These community groups are being scaled up so that they can cover all rural communities. They are also trained in distributing oral contraceptives, checking for malaria and as lay counselors so as to bring the service closer to the people.

Where the terrain is suitable for motor bikes or bicycle ambulances, the communities are empowered in that area as well.

Maternal Death Reviews

Mr Speaker, the ministry is strengthening the maternal death reviews (MDRs) at all levels from the community to referral hospitals. A maternal death review is the construction of events that led to the death of a pregnant woman from the community to the hospital or clinic. Thus, factors that led to the death of a pregnant woman are elucidated at the community, health centre and hospital levels. This, in turn, makes interventions more focused. All the provinces have MDR committees set up at the provincial, district, health centre and community levels.

Maternal deaths are in the process of being notifiable. Just like diseases like tuberculosis or cholera, any maternal deaths will be reported. Therefore, we will have more accurate data on the magnitude of the problem and the progress we are making in addressing the maternal mortality rates.

Prevention of Mother to Child Transmission (PMTCT)

In 2009, more than 95 per cent of the pregnant women were tested for human immuno-deficiency virus (HIV) and of those who were pregnant and HIV positive, 64 per cent accessed services, including anti-retrovirals (ARVs) to reduce the risk of mother-to-child transmission of HIV as well as to help maintain the mothers’ health and subsequently prevent mortality.

Zambia has just finished preparing new guidelines for service delivery that will increase the impact of the PMTCT services to enable more members of the family to access comprehensive HIV care after identifying the index women.

Malaria during Pregnancy

Mr Speaker, Malaria is an indirect cause of maternal mortality. The country is currently engaged in best practices such as the launch of the Malaria and Pregnancy Package via focused ante-natal clinics, use of haemacues for routine monitoring of haemoglobin, free access to health services, malaria rapid diagnostic tests rolled out throughout the country and the free distribution of insecticide treated bed nets as well as the services provided by ante-natal clinics.

Family Planning

The ministry has been strengthening family planning services in the country with emphasis on long-term methods such as through the use of the Jadelle System and the intrauterine contraceptive device (IUD), especially in the rural areas where limiting of families is a challenge. These methods especially work well for women who have had the desired number of children and do not want to have any more children.

All districts in the country now have some facilities that provide modern long-term methods. What remains is to reach saturation levels. Family planning is important because the prevention of unwanted pregnancies, which family planning does, is critical in the prevention of maternal mortality due to unsafe abortions. Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies also means reducing the number of pregnancies that may result in complications.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health, in collaboration with partners, has formed the Reproductive Health Community Security Committees. These committees plan and make resources available to ensure that reproductive health commodities such as those for family planning, equipment, drugs and other supplies are available.

Currently, a costed strategic plan for reproductive health commodities is being developed in conjunction with our co-operating partners. The Ministry of Health has established a dedicated budget line for reproductive health commodities. The commodities are used in conducting normal deliveries, managing of pregnancy-related complications and the provision of family planning services.

Emergency Obstetric and Neo-natal Care

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health, in collaboration with co-operating partners, is strengthening emergency obstetric and neo-natal care (EmONC). This entails making selected facilities in a district into ones which can respond effectively to the management of pregnancy-related complications. We are working with partners such as the Department for International Development (DFID), World Bank and Cabinet Office through the Service Delivery Improvement Fund (SDIF) to strengthen these facilities.

Programmes to strengthen emergency obstetric and neo-natal care include making equipment available for managing complications in selected health centres and hospitals, training of health providers in managing complications as well as the rehabilitation of infrastructure to make deliveries in health facilities possible and the building of mothers’ shelters.

The CARMMA Programme

The Government has further launched the Campaign to Accelerate Reduction in Maternal Mortality (CARMMA). The high level launch was officiated by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Banda. Follow-up activities to sustain life-saving interventions are being developed.

This intervention is meant to allow for a focused approach in mainstreaming women’s survival as well as utilise a multi-sectoral approach which will allow for the involvement of private-public partnerships (PPPs) and the civil society.

Forty-three hon. Members of Parliament were oriented in how the CARMMA works so that we could get their support in putting up safe motherhood programmes. They appreciated the information which we shared with them and resolved to use 20 per cent of their CDF to build mothers’ shelters in their constituencies.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, one of the bottlenecks which lead to high maternal mortality is the bad state of most roads that lead to clinics countrywide. In his answer, the hon. Minister has not talked about the repair or construction of roads.  I would like to find out what is being done to ensure that the roads that lead to clinics are in perfect condition.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I have outlined a very comprehensive statement with regard to the direct causes of maternal mortality in this country. The hon. Member has raised a new question regarding roads. There is no doubt that good roads entail easy and quick access to health facilities. Being well aware of that fact, the Government is on top of things in this regard. I think that throughout this budget, the Ministry of Works and Supply has outlined extensively the measures that we are taking in repairing roads.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how maternal and infant mortality rates can be reduced in rural health centres such as those in Luapula which are manned by untrained workers since the ministry has not been able to provide trained health workers.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I have outlined the measures which the Government has taken to reduce the maternal and infant mortality rates. One of the most important aspects is that of human resource. I have said that we are scaling up training activities, including midwifery training. This underscores the necessity for areas such as these to be accessed by the mobile hospitals which we are bringing into the country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, there are a lot of women who are dying, particularly in the rural areas, as a result of poverty. What deliberate measures is the ministry taking to assist the poor women who are unable to attend antenatal clinics because they have no money?

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, first of all, I disagree with the statement that has been made by the hon. Member for Choma Central, but I would like to inform him that ante-natal coverage in this country is very good. However, in the absence of empirical data in the hon. Members statement, I am unable to give him a categorical answer.  As a ministry, we are very happy with the ante-natal coverage and the fact that most women are accessing reproductive health facilities. Therefore, I do not think his statement is very true.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Kawandami (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Deputy Minister to clarify his statement that, of the 95 per cent pregnant women who were tested, 64 per cent were put on treatment. I am worried about the state of affairs because it looks like the infection rate of HIV/AIDS is still on the increase.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Member has misunderstood my statement and that is why it is important, sometimes, to take a little time to understand the operations of the House in order to understand what is being said.

Hon. Opposition Members: Answer the question!

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, 95 per cent of the pregnant women were tested and not that 95 per cent were HIV positive.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has just intimated that mobile hospitals will be used in far-flung areas. I would like to find out whether areas like Bangweulu in Luapula Province will be considered for motorised boat hospitals.

 Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I think it was announced on the Floor of this House that we intend to procure, among other facilities, boat ambulances. The concern by the hon. Member will be taken care of.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament, especially those on your left, have built health posts using the CDF, but there is no personnel to work at the health facilities. When will the Government come up with plans to staff the health posts which were constructed using the CDF?

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I will repeat my answer. Earlier on, I said, in as far as human resource development is concerned, the ministry has increased the intakes of nurses and also re-opened closed nursing schools. The direct entry process into the midwifery programme has been introduced. This means that midwives will be trained in two years as opposed to four years which included basic training for three years and one year training for midwifery. The training of clinical officers for two years to become licentiates will enable them provide pregnancy-related services.

Sir, these are some of the measures this Government is taking to ensure that human resource is made available in some of the health facilities. Therefore, this Government is on top of things and is addressing this problem adequately.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, it is clear that the Central Statistical Office (CSO) does not collect data for those who die in the remote parts of Zambia. May the hon. Minister confirm that the figures that he has read out are actually estimates and do not represent the actual picture of the entire country.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, these figures were given to us by our experts. If the hon. Member has an issue with these figures, he is very free to come to our offices and we can discuss the figures with him extensively.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I seek further clarification on the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Chifubu, Hon Kawandami. Can the hon. Deputy Minister be clearer with the figures in which he stated that of all the pregnant women, 95 per were cent were tested for HIV/AIDS, and of those that were tested, 64 per cent underwent treatment. If those are the figures that he gave, could he be categorical on the incidence of HIV/AIDS. Is it not a sign that HIV/AIDS is extremely high if 64 per cent of those who got tested ended up being treated for the disease?

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I will read my statement again. I said that in 2009, more than 95 per cent of pregnant women were tested for HIV, and of those who were HIV positive, 64 per cent accessed ARV treatment to reduce the risk of mother to child transmission.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Before we leave this question, I would like to remind the House that you are all communicators. You no longer communicate amongst yourselves here, but beyond the bounds of this Chamber. As such, the language we use must be simple enough to be understood by those who are following what we say here.

For instance, whereas the phrase ‘maternal mortality’ may be familiar to doctors when they talk amongst themselves because they understand specific Latin words, it cannot be easily understood by people out there. Just to remind you, I do not know how many, in here, have studied Latin for seven, eight or nine years. I am not sure whether you know that the word ‘maternal’comes from the Latin word ‘mater’ which means mother.

Mr Shakafuswa: You are being tutored by my son.

Mr Speaker: The opposite is pater which is father. Mortality comes from a Latin word ‘motus’, which means death.

Laugher

Mr Shakafuswa: The Speaker has set very high standards for this House.

Mr Speaker: Why not say, “How many mothers have died?” It is simpler that way. Use Anglo-Saxon English.

There is another pair which is very famous, morbidity and mortality. Do you remember it? Again, this is another pair which is clearly understood among the doctors. The word morbidity comes from a Latin word which means illness. I have already explained the meaning of mortality. Why not simply say, “Illness and death”.

Until recently, there was a very famous phrase that was used by your predecessors in this House, ‘Ipso facto’. This is another Latin phrase. It means by the fact itself or sui generis …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … which is another Latin word which means by its nature or origin.

There is another very famous phrase which is even in our laws, mutatis mutandis.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Do you remember that?

We are slowly removing them from modern laws because they are too hard to understand.

Let me know if there is anyone who can interpret or translate these words in English, bellum omnium, contra omnes.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Mpombo!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The point is that I have to translate these words because those who are listening out there are wondering what I have just said. Bellum means ‘war’, omnium means ‘of all’, contra means ‘against’ and omnes means ‘all’. You will come across these words if you take a subject in political science by the ancient philosophers. However, it is not philosophy, but another branch of it. So, you can see that we are really not understood by a number of our listeners. Let us use simple English and this refers to Anglo-Saxon. Avoid Greek words because they are just as difficult to follow. Maybe, the professors can use them.

IN-SERVICE-TRAINING TRUST

136. Mrs Phiri (Munali) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) when the In-Service-Training Trust (ISTT) at the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC) was established;

(b) under what arrangement the ISTT was designed to operate at the NRDC campus;

(c) how much hostel space and furniture the ISTT took over from the NRDC; and

(d) whether the ISTT had made any investment in physical infrastructure and, if so, what the total investment had been to date.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, the ISTT initially called the In-Service-Training Centre (ISTC) was established in 1991 as an independent set of project activities under the auspices of the training component of the Maize and Fertiliser Storage Project financed by the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA). It was transformed into a trust in 1996 and registered as ISTT, which is now independent of the NRDC.

Mr Speaker, initially, the ISTC, as it used to be called, was the tenth department of the NRDC. Its purpose was to develop human capacity in agriculture through in-service training, upgrading, retraining, refresher and general public interest courses. The in-service training was intended to upgrade and improve the skills levels of those involved in agriculture and related industries. These are extension workers, teachers and farm managers. This was done through specialised courses, workshops and seminars. The ISTC was also used as an income-generating entity for the institution.

Mr Speaker, the ISTT took away the following facilities from the NRDC:

(i) two classroom blocks, including furniture;

(ii) two offices;

(iii) one boardroom;

(iv) two hostels with eighty rooms comprising 160 beds and 160 mattresses.

Sir, the ISTT, with the assistance of CIDA, has constructed one high cost house, two medium cost houses, three classrooms and a seminar room. The ISTT has also made renovations and bought new furniture, equipment for the kitchen, sunk two boreholes and purchased a power generating set. The total cost of investment, to date, is approximately K10 billion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, the NRDC was originally constructed to cater for students who were going to be trained there. The in-service-training came in 1991 as correctly said by the hon. Minister. This programme has been going on and I am sure the hon. Minister knows that our students …

Mr Speaker: Order!

 I have been very patient. What is your question?

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, when is the ISTT going to construct new hostels to alleviate the suffering of the students? This is because, at the moment, five students share a room at the college.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are really concerned about the students’ welfare as well as the ISTT. We had started the programme of erecting one additional dormitory and will continue until we finish. At the same time, we are also planning to relocate the ISTT to another place in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, what is the timeframe within which the ISTT is going to relocate from the NRDC because, I think, this is a matter of urgency? The rooms are overcrowded .

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, at the moment, there is a committee which is working to ensure that we come up with a tangible timeframe and the cost involved in the relocation exercise. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister indicate the duration of this training programme.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the question is somehow vague, but I am made to believe that the hon. Member wants to know the duration of the training programme at the NRDC.  It is a three-year diploma course. For in-service training, there is no specified duration as some are short courses and can take weeks or months.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, people are building houses in the area where the NRDC was keeping cattle. Could the hon. Minister explain where those animals have been taken and what is happening?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, some animals are kept within the college. Others have been taken to Mumbwa where we are opening a new ranch and some construction works have commenced. We, as a ministry, feel that all our animals will eventually be moved to Mumbwa.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, instead of relocating the students to another area, is the Government not considering constructing new hostels since the training entails practical work and this can only be done within the institution?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, as I indicated in my answer, at the moment, there is a dormitory which is under construction and it is at slab level. The ministry is very keen to continue constructing it. As it is, there is enough space at the NRDC from where students can conduct their practical work.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: This is a very popular question.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the animals at the NRDC will be moved to Mumbwa. I would like to find out from him how prudent it is to move those animals which are used for practical work at the NRDC to Mumbwa and whether it will be in the interest of the institution to do this.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the animals are in two groups. Some are for dairy and others for beef. The animals for beef will be taken to Mumbwa where they will need a larger tract of land for grazing. The animals for dairy will be kept within the college.

For practical work, students will travel and spend some time in Mumbwa where they will physically do the insemination of the cattle at the ranch.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister told this House that his Government was a cost- saving one. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if he will surely save costs by forcing students to move to and from Mumbwa. Is this the cost-saving that is always talked about?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, when being trained as an agriculturist, one needs to test farm life for some time. At the moment, students go to Palabana and as far as Choma and Monze for practical work. I, therefore, think that going to Mumbwa is quite practical and it is possible that costs will be reduced.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister assure this House that land which was grabbed by unscrupulous people will be reclaimed for the people of Zambia?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, all land issues have been legalised. Therefore, there is nothing like some people grabbing land from the NRDC.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister able to provide evidence on how the Government arrived at dismantling a school and a farm which were a set-up establishment?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the school and farm were one entity. However, the problem that arose was that the ranch got invaded by people who eventually took it over. 

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: In this case, the Ministry of Lands has made sure that everything is legalised …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mbewe: … and has found another place where practical work can be done from.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that the Ministry of Lands acted in bad faith when it legalised illegal settlers on a piece of land that was meant for training and that he should, therefore, resign?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, we are not in a position to indicate that the Ministry of Lands acted in bad faith. There are procedures to be followed in the acquisition of land. Once the Commissioner of Lands in the Ministry of Lands is satisfied that it can be done, the legalisation is concluded. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

_______{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – K14,082,486,726) and VOTE 19 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit –  K59,447,246,851).

(Consideration resumed)

Madam Chairperson: Before I call upon the hon. Member for Roan, I wish to advise the Committee that Head 02 will be debated together with Head 19.

The hon. Member for Roan may continue.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended yesterday, I was trying to belabour a point that has been taken care of, today, by consolidation of the two heads. I was trying to say that the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) falls under the Office of the Vice-President. It is surprising, however, that in this year’s Budget, it has been treated as a stand-alone institution. Now that the two Vote have been consolidated, it makes me happy.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say one or two things about the operations of the Office of the Vice-President. This House allocates money to the Office of the Vice-President for and on behalf of the people of Zambia so that the Vice-President performs the duties given to him by the Zambians and enshrined in the Constitution. It is surprising, however, that, of late, despite money from the taxpayers being allocated to support this office, the Vice-President is always talking politics and campaigning on behalf of the MMD every time he is on national duty.

I wish to appeal to the Vice-President to separate his role as MMD cadre from that of Republican Vice-President. It is disheartening. Sometimes, hon. Opposition Members would like to attend functions officiated by the Vice-President but, immediately, he arrives at the airport, he disparages them. How do you expect the hon. Opposition Members of Parliament to support his cause? I, therefore, appeal to him to seriously consider separating his duties when travelling as an MMD cadre from when he is travelling as Republican Vice-President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We are not going to allow a situation where we will give money to the Vice-President, basically, to go and campaign for the MMD. This should come to an end.

 Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I am Hon. Kambwili, a Member of Parliament

The Chairperson: Order!

Can the hon. Member speak through the Chair. Do not listen to heckling.

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, His Honour the Vice-President must know that every time he travels on official duty, which is funded by the taxpayers, he should only do the job that he is sent to do on behalf of the people of Zambia that are paying the taxes. If he wants to go and campaign, let him use an MMD vehicle or under the MMD budget to do his MMD job. Then, we will have no problem with it. For as long as we are going to fund this office, His Honour the Vice-President should desist from talking politics when on national duty.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Chairperson, I wanted to say a few words about the DMMU. The slight problem that we have in following the figures carefully is that this has now been removed from the Office of the Vice-President on Page 8 and …

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Madam.

Dr Scott: … that is the last …

The Chairperson: Order!

I cannot see anything unprocedural that warrants a point of order. Therefore, I will not allow points of order that simply derail the debate of the House. There is nothing unprocedural. The rest have their places in the House.

Hon. Dr Scott may continue.

Mrs Phiri: Awe, it is not fair.

Mrs Phiri left the Assembly Chamber.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, to follow my argument, it is necessary, unfortunately, to flip between Page 8, which covers the 2010 Budget allocation in the Yellow Book, and page 314 which covers the 2011 Budget. Therefore, to compare the two, you have to flip across 300 pages at a time. I just want to make two or three passing observations.

Why is there continued presence, under disaster response of allocations for Programme 11, Activity 03 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Drainage System and Sanitation – K15,515,640,397 and Programme 11, Activity 04 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Culverts and Bridges – K25,041,760,142. I really do not believe, and I think it is giving us management problems, that culverts, bridges, sanitation and drainage are disaster response items.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Let people pay attention to the debate and lessen the consultations.

May the hon. Member for Lusaka Central, please, continue.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I have misgivings about works that fall either under the Ministry of Works and Supply normally or its agencies such as the Road Development Agency and National Roads Fund Agency or, again, under the city councils and the rural district councils, being brought into yet another new category. We now have about five management institutions all trying to dig or build the same culvert or do the same drainage works. I think the Government should attempt to get its management structure in terms of water related infrastructure sorted out in its head. Also, the quantities are up about a hundredfold. The total budget for this unit, last year, was about half a billion Kwacha but, now, it is K59,447,246,851. So, it is turning from being a small reactive unit dealing with culverts here and there, to being a major player or on a par with the Road Development Agency (RDA) or the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and Ministry of Works and Supply. I foresee difficulties in the co-ordination of this quantity of public works.

Madam Chairpersons, I also note, in passing, that the item to do with Programme 12, Activity 01 – Procurement of Relief Supplies (Food and Non-Food Items) – K3,055,713,648, has gone up from a few million Kwacha. I wonder why that is. Are we expecting to supply relief in a year when there is a bumper harvest? Last year’s allocation was adequate and there was no supplementary appropriation. However, this year it has gone up tremendously and I am just wondering whether this is an election-related expense or somebody knows something about some starvation that is coming somewhere in the country that will require this item to be operationalised. Perhaps, the hon. Minister, when he deals with this head, will explain why it has taken over the functions of many other institutions and why relief supplies are being foreseen to be required on a much larger scale than they were required last year.

Madam Chairperson, those are my two comments. I am grateful to you for giving me the Floor.  

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Imasiku): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on the Motion on the Floor of this House.

Madam Chairperson, this is the second most important office in the land; second to State House. Therefore, it deserves a handsome share of the budget as apportioned by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Chairperson, in supporting the budget for this very important office, in the first place, I would like to thank the person holding the Office of the Vice-President, in the name of Hon. George Kunda, SC.

Madam Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President deserves the job and I would like to thank the President for identifying him among the many distinguished members of his Cabinet.

Madam Chairperson, we want to pay tribute to him in the manner he has led the affairs of Government business in this House in the midst of unwarranted attacks from some disgruntled hon. Members from your left. Efforts to derail him have fallen short of the intended evil plans.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Business has continued very well as was the case …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson:  Order! Is the point of order procedural?

Ho. Government Members: No!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I wonder whether the hon. Deputy Minister is in order to be so unprocedural as to start referring to hon. Members of this dignified House as disgruntled. I seek your very serious ruling on this matter. May he also indicate who, amongst the people on the left, are disgruntled and who, amongst those on your right are not disgruntled.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development has heard that point of order and he may seriously consider that as he debates. May he also remember that he is debating the Office of the Vice-President.

May the hon. Deputy Minister continue.

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, I wanted to say that some hon. Members always want to attack and call His Honour the Vice-President names.

Madam Chairperson, it is not uncommon to hear some people from your left stand on the Floor of this House and call him names which he does not deserve because he is a hardworking man.

Madam Chairperson, business has continued during his tenure of office just like the case was when his predecessor who is now the Republican President held the office.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Zambia gave us a very hardworking President and the President has given us …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, you should remember that we are debating the budget. Therefore, whatever you say has to be related to the budget. We cannot now go into appointments. It is important that you try and harmonise your thoughts with the budget and not the way you are proceeding.

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, it is important that adequate funds are allocated to this important office because it deals with the natural disasters that occur in this nation. Therefore, the person holding this office deserves good comments from the people of Zambia.

Madam, His Honour the Vice-President, Mr George Kunda’s name will go down in the history of this country for having done very well in ushering in a new Constitution that we are all awaiting. This is not in the budget, but I just wanted to congratulate him on having shouldered this important work, as can be seen in the way he handles disasters in the nation.

Some people may not understand what disasters mean. Disasters are difficult to foretell, let alone the magnitude of the destruction they cause. We have heard people complain about disasters, and yet disasters are happenings we cannot plan for. The major attribute of a leader who handles disaster mitigation is to have the skill to deal with disasters with minimum or no loss of life at all. With this allocation given to him, I feel that he will continue to take care of the disasters in this country.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Imwambo in Kalabo are very grateful to His Honour the Vice-President for rushing to that place when a natural disaster occurred in this area when the whole village was gutted by fire. The little resources that were allocated in this year’s Budget helped. I am sure that with the amount allocated to him in next year’s Budget, he will take care of such type of disasters.

Madam, there are a number of armchair critics in this House. Some of them are fond of criticising the leadership that it has destroyed the legacy left behind by our late beloved President. I wish to assure them that even this time, disasters and other issues will be taken care of. This Government will continue to take care of everything in this country using the proposed budget.

Madam Chairperson, I know that some people may not understand the word ‘legacy’ very well. The word ‘legacy’ according to the dictionary, means a situation that exists now because of events or actions that took place in the past. Therefore, what we are seeing today is what our late beloved President left behind and the current Government is following it through. This includes issues of disasters.

If you look at the late beloved President’s legacy, you will see that he wanted this country to prosper through infrastructure development, fighting corruption and whatever programme he thought would take this country forward. This Government has continued from where he left.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to urge all hon. Members of this House to support this allocation which will be executed by a man who has a heart for the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for allowing me to debate the Vote for the Office of the Vice-President.

Before I do that, Madam, please, allow me to join the many Members of Parliament who have congratulated the two Members of Parliament who have joined the House today, Hon. Mung’omba and the prolific Hon. Captain Cosmas Moono.

Madam, my comments on this Vote are attached to Vote 02/03, Programme 10, Activity 02 – Database Management which stands at K252,924,367 for just this activity as compared to the allocation provided in Vote 02/03, Programme 11, Activities 01 and 02 – Identification of Safer Lands for Displaced Persons and Facilitation of Settlement of Displaced Persons –  K141,188,367.

In this country, internally displaced persons have suffered for a very long time. The list of identified internally displaced persons is too numerous to categorise, but I will give you just a few.

In my constituency, Mazabuka Central, there are people of Mugoto who were displaced from where the famous Albidon Mine is domiciled. In Chilanga, Madam, there are people of Julius. These people are located nearly 28 km west of Lusaka in a very rocky place. They are internally displaced, but are commonly known as squatters by the people on your right. The people of Mahopo in Chongwe are also internally displaced. I am sure many of us, Members of Parliament, have television sets and have watched this on television.

Nearly a fortnight ago, if not more, you saw how policemen brutalised internally displaced persons as they were removing them from a settlement they had been staying in for a very long time.

Madam, it does not augur well for an allocation …

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

It is not long ago that the hon. Minister clarified the question of brutality on the Chongwe residents. Therefore, it is a matter that the House has dealt with and you may not bring it to the Floor of the House now.

You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: My sincere apologies, Madam Chairperson. When this matter was deliberated upon, I was busy winning an election in Chilanga and I have not been here for two weeks. Therefore, I withdraw that contribution and, maybe, tell you about the brutality in Mapanza …

Hon. Member: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: … in the Southern Province. Madam Chairperson, brutality is brutality because it has no other definition.

In Macha, internally displaced human beings who are Zambian citizens, women, children and old people were brutalised by the police. This should not be a matter to be taken lightly by anyone of us. For as long as we have a tag of decency on ourselves, we must not trivialise issues of police brutality on internally displaced human beings. These people deserve care and love. Therefore, the allocation of K51,467,540 for the facilitation of resettlement of internally displaced persons does not show seriousness in my view. For any one to allocate this much to identification of safer land for internally displaced persons does not augur well. In the same vein, for someone to allocate K252 million for somebody who is just managing a database in an air conditioned office to deal with internally displaced persons, also makes a fallacy of the situation.

The people of Sichifulo are also internally displaced persons. Sometime back, somebody was a champion for the cause of the people of Sichifulo, but now he has shut up ...

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … simply because some …

The Chairperson: Order!

The phrase ‘shut up’ is unparliamentary. Please, debate …

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw the phrase ‘shut up’. The people of Sichifulo …

The Chairperson: Order! I am still talking.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Nkombo, you have the Floor. So, relax and debate in the manner expected of you.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. The people of Chief Nyawa in Sichifulo are internally displaced and we have heard the story. There was a petition to State House made by a once-upon-a-time prolific Member of Parliament who has suddenly gone, in Tonga, we say, kubwaya. It is like when a sweet potato loses its taste and becomes watery. That is what we call kubwaya. This is when one just becomes irrelevant.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, the internally displaced persons required to see figures that are meaningful in this budget and the comparison I am giving here is between staff in an office dealing with the data base at K252,924,367 and the people affected at K50,400,000. The disparity is too much. I would like some one from the right to tell me that I am not making sense then I will go back to school so that I start to see things their way.

Madam Chairperson, there is absolutely no way the internally displaced multitudes can only get the national allocation of K90 million. This makes sad reading. This is why the Chilanga seat was a lot difficult for the colleagues on the right to get because if you went to Mapepe at a place called Pathet Farm, where people have been living on someone’s farm for a very long time now, and even if the Government does not care, blankets were distributed in October to internally displaced human beings when everybody was sweating profusely due to the heat.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to end my debate by simply saying it would have been good for the Office of the Vice-President to look at these figures before presenting them to the House. If one divided the K90 million among the seventy two districts, I am sure he/she would laugh.

I thank you.

The Chairperson: Order!

I would like to give a word of caution to the House through the Committee that when you are talking about one another, you must be very careful with the words you use. When you talk about one another in a manner that the other hon. Member may chose to respond, then we will have a chaotic House. 
 
No one is allowed to call another hon. Member names or describe him/her in a manner that is not allowed. The Chair will not allow this kind of debate. So, let us be careful as we continue.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to follow the debate of the hon. Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development when he talked about the occupant of the office of Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, it is clear that the occupant of that office is considered to be a person of great capacity. It will be recalled that when he was hon. Minister of Justice, he was also Attorney-General. Currently, he is Vice-President and Minister of Justice. Obviously, that poses a number of challenges. We have seen, in the recent past, the Office of the Vice-President making comments on matters to do with the handling of cases by the Judiciary. Even before the Attorney-General and the Director of Public Prosecutions make a comment, His Honour the Vice-President has been heard commenting and giving directives on how these two offices should proceed with matters that are in court. That is not expected of the Office of the Vice-President. Much as he is considered to be a man of great capacity, it is not expected of him to be making statements and comments that bring the Offices of Attorney-General and DPP into question in the public eye. Even though he is not here, I know that his colleagues in Cabinet will advise him that this matter …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Is it on procedure?

Mr Sichilima: Yes, Madam. I rise on a very serious point of order and, as a matter of fact, a point of procedure. Is the hon. Member in order to start talking about issues of justice when it is very clear that we are discussing the Office of the Vice-President on issues of disaster as you guided? We know that the occupant of the office is also the hon. Minister of Justice but, at the moment, here, we are specifically talking about the office and its link, the DMMU. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

My guidance is that the hon. Member on the Floor should be cautious by trying to isolate the actions of the holder of the Office of Vice-President and, maybe, debate other issues related to justice when the Vote for the Ministry of Justice comes under consideration.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I will try hard to separate the two and I hope that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice will also be clear when making comments to state whether he is making them as Vice-President or as Minister of Justice.

Madam Chairperson, for as long as he combines the two offices, we are at a loss to know whether he is speaking as Vice-President or as hon. Minister of Justice at a particular time. As a result, it will be very difficult for us to tell. However, Madam Chairperson, I would like my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister who has a very good relationship with the Vice-President, to suggest to him that there should be a clear distinction between the two offices.

Madam Chairperson, I now move on to the issue of disaster management and mitigation. First of all, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for facilitating the operationalisation of the DMMU at the provincial level. I have noted, hon. Minister, that close to K4.6 billion has been allocated for that purpose. I am hoping that, within a short time, when we debate the Budget for 2012, those of us who will be in this House shall have the opportunity to notice that this is cascaded downwards so that we can also operationalise this office at the district level. These disasters take place at the household level in districts and the rate of response of these officers is crucial. To wait for officers from Lusaka to travel to far-flung areas which have been hit by disasters is expecting too much. I am grateful that we are moving in the right direction with regard to the decentralisation of that very important unit. Nonetheless, I would like His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to realise that construction of facilities and disaster management are two different issues.

As things are in Lusaka, I do not think the floods in Chawama, Kabwata, and Kanyama should be considered a disaster. They only become a disaster because we are not prepared. Besides, it is not the DMMU which should prepare for these eventualities, but the local authorities. In Lusaka, the Lusaka City Council (LCC) is the one that should be given the facilities and resources to avoid the occurrence of floods in Chawama. The challenge we have now is that we act as though we are not aware of the fact that, come October/November of every year, there shall be rainfall. We act as though rain comes by chance.

Madam Chairperson, we talked about these matters in 2008 and the then Vice- President, who is the current President of the Republic, was seen flying over Kabwata, Kanyama and Chawama in a chopper, spending a lot of money on Jet A1 fuel.

In 2009, we thought that he would have saved enough money to pay the LCC to open up drainage systems. Come rainy season 2009, the Chief Government Spokesperson was at pains to explain why we had not provided drainage systems and he blamed it entirely on LCC, and yet we, at the LCC, have always requested money from Central Government on an annual basis to open up drainage systems.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Aah!

You are just cheating.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, this year, the LCC applied to the Office of the Vice-President for a smaller amount of K102 million to go and open up the major drainage systems in Lusaka. However, that money has not been given to the LCC. Instead, the opening up of drainage systems in my constituency is being done by the DMMU now in conjunction with the District Commissioner (DC) at the exclusion of the LCC.

Hon. Government Member: It is because you steal.

Mr Lubinda: You cannot run a country by using the DMMU. The specialists at the DMMU are supposed to respond only when there is a disaster. The management of the country is not up to the DMMU. I am glad that there is money being allocated to it and I am glad that it is doing this work, but the trouble is that we are not building the capacity where it is required. The capacity to open up drainage systems in Kanyama should not be built in the DMMU or in the Office of the DC but in the local authority.

Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is that yes, please, provide enough resources to the DMMU for them to be able to respond to these calamities. However, can we move ahead with the spirit of the Decentralisation Policy? Let us decentralise so that local authorities take their rightful place in the provision of hardware for ensuring that we avoid the recurrence of especially foreseeable disasters. I do not think there is anyone in this House or in the Office of the Vice-President, even the former Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, who is not fully aware of the fact that, come November, there will be a flood in Kabwata.

Madam Chairperson, another matter I would like to mention relates to the promises made by the Office of the Vice-President. The noble people of Kabwata Constituency, after realising that the council is not being given sufficient resources to open up drainage systems, have decided to do this on their own. Hon. Minister, they are not even using CDF, but are doing it voluntarily. I am glad that they invited the then Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President to go and see the works. While there, he promised them, way back in August, that he would go back to give them culverts from the Office of the Vice-President. I have since made frantic efforts to try and make the hon. Minister fulfil his promise and all my efforts have proved futile. We cannot have an Office of the Vice-President that cannot live up to its promises. That is terribly unbefitting. The Office of the Vice-President, like the Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development was saying, is supposed to be a well respected institution. As such, once that office makes a promise to the people, that promise must be fulfilled.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Kabwata have sent me with a message today. Actually, today, itself, Madam Chairperson, I had a long but productive and fruitful phone discussion with the Co-ordinator of the DMMU. The people of Kabwata asked me, “Can you go ...

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Is that point of order on procedure, hon. Minister, because you will have time to debate?

May the hon. Member for Kabwata continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the message that I am carrying on behalf of the people of Kabwata is that, please, can the Office of the Vice-President, which we are debating, honour its promises and pledges. Can the Office of the Vice-President, please, deliver the culverts for the drainage systems that the people of Kabwata are opening up at their own expense without any assistance from the councils, Office of the Vice-President and the DMMU? This is a plea of the people of Kabwata to the Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, before my time runs out, let me talk about the matter that my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central was talking about. This is with regard to internally displaced people. A lot of displaced people in this country are not displaced under unknown circumstances. All the time, we are aware of which people are going to be displaced. It is not as though the Government is not aware, but the trouble is that the Government does not act rapidly. When the people were displaced in Mandevu Compound, all of us knew about the court ruling, and yet the Government did not take any action at all. Instead, they provided tents after people’s houses were demolished. I would like to appeal to the Office of the Vice-President and the DMMU to also have a keen interest in matters of land which are before courts of law so that as soon as the rulings are made, the DMMU, using the influence of the Office of the Vice-President, can prevail over the Minister of Lands for people to be relocated to places which are serviced. It is as easy as that.

Madam Chairperson, I have always spoken passionately about the people of Mahopo and it is as though His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is not aware of their plight. I have written numerous letters appealing to his office to come and protect the interests of the people of Mahopo, but I have not received any response. If those people are displaced, I am sure that they will go to the DMMU and say, “Can you react,” and yet the calamity could have easily been prevented. These are the matters we are talking about when we say we must be prepared and not wait for disasters simply because there is an Office of the DMMU. That is not the reason it is there. Let that office react to unforeseeable disasters. Disasters are not planned for but, in this country, it is like we always plan for and wait for disasters to occur. That is not how to manage the country.

Madam Chairperson, I am very hopeful that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice  will get a leaf from some of the things that we are saying here so that we empower the DMMU for it to be responsive only after and not before the calamity. Now we are using the DMMU as engineers. DMMU must not be engineers for our roads, but must attend to a bridge after it has collapsed. The construction of roads, bridges, culverts and drainage systems is a function of other agencies not the DMMU.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Munkombwe): Madam Chairperson, may I thank you for affording me this opportunity to debate this Vote. I want to correct the term that has been used to address you. You are not, Madam Chair. I suppose you are not a stool but a Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That is the right way to address you.

I want to refer to a progressive debate yesterday by Hon. Regina Musokotwane who debated passionately …

Hon. Members: Regyna!

Mr Munkombwe: That is your pronunciation. I call her Regina.

The Chairperson: May the hon. Minister speak through the Chair. Do not respond to hecklers.

Mr Musokotwane: … about the surroundings of Government House. She said that house does not belong to an individual, but Zambians. Therefore, we Zambians must learn to look after it. I think that was really a reasonable and genuine contribution.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to make reference to an hon. Member who said His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice should distinguish between being a politician and Government leader. We are all in here as a product of a Government system that is based on parties.

An hon. Minister in a Government that is a product of a political system cannot be expected to represent views other than those of the Government.  Similarly, the Vice-President of any country is always expected to speak for the party in power. I assume that all political parties here have ambitions of forming Government at any particular time. If that is the case, I cannot see why a Government official like me would be expected to start speaking against the Government I represent, for example, when I am received at the airport. I, therefore, do not understand why the Opposition should get irritated if His Honour the Vice-President affiliates himself with the MMD because he is a member of the party in power and cannot therefore divorce himself from this party regardless of the fact that he is the country’s Vice-President.

What should be realised is that we are not in a monarch or under a socialist state as was the case in the days of the United National Independence Party (UNIP). Everything was done under command and one had to speak a certain language to survive in politics. Now we have formed a democratically-elected Government. When do my good friends on your left hope to ever be in Government? If they ever hope to be in Government, they should know that they will have a President who will make political decisions. Their Vice-President and hon. Ministers will also be political when expressing themselves. What is being said against us here will also be said against them. I think that is the way we must look at politics.

Madam Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, Mr George Kunda, SC., is a distinguished man. That has been confirmed by some hon. Members on both sides of the House. He is honourable and focused and cannot be pushed around by politicians. He can react very strongly and I support him. I can go with that man to war …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … because I know that it is …

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

I know it is a figure of speech, but I think, for now, we do not want you to use that figure of speech of ‘going to war’.

Mr Munkombwe: Madam, I can go on any platform with that man.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Munkombwe: Due to the fantasy you have in your heads, you can say, “Aah” but can you listen to my analogy.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: It is not right that we sit here very quietly when the hon. Members from the Opposition are on the Floor of this House, but whenever we rise to defend the MMD Government, they react. I normally do not hide my views on many issues and neither do my colleagues on this side. I can only praise somebody who says sensible things as I did with regard to Hon. Musokotwane’s contribution. By the way, Hon. Muntanga, yesterday, also said things which are normally said by a person who …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Who is normal.

Mr Munkombwe: … is very normal.

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: You will withdraw those words because all hon. Members in here are normal.

Mr Munkombwe: I am sorry. I was misled by my honourable younger brother.

The Chairperson: Do not listen to hecklers.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: He misled me (pointed at Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha).

The Chairperson: Withdraw the words.

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, really …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended I was about to say that we have a political system that produces hon. Members of Parliament whose majority form Government. We, obviously, cannot expect hon. Ministers not to be political. We are all here because of politics. As I said earlier, the purpose of forming political parties is to gain political power.

Mr Chairperson, according to our Constitution, the President and Vice-President are the only ones allowed to use Government resources at election time.  We have all taken the oath of allegiance to protect the Constitution. This oath should serve as a guide to everyone in here, regardless of which side we are on.

Mr Chairperson, I am only able to be convinced by arguments from reasonable people, regardless of which side of the House they are on.   However, those who are unreasonable and, everyday, are either sent out or told to be out of order, cannot obviously be my friends.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: It is really nice to listen to experts because they usually say logical things and one can learn from them.  Nonetheless, we want the people on your left to tell us where we go wrong and we will listen and take note.  However, if they merely make noise, we will not listen. Some hon. Members have only been here for fives years and others nine years, but …

Hon. Government Members: Under-fives.

Mr Munkombwe: I do not subscribe to the use of that term.

Mr Chairperson, it is important to note that there are people who have been in this House much longer than most hon. Members.

In the Southern Province, we had Chief Munyumbwe, who was the longest serving hon. Member and he made a name. So, if you have been in this House for five years, then you are not yet an expert. I am not an expert myself. As the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said, we have done a lot, but we still need to do more. I think that is the cardinal point …

Mr Beene: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Munkombwe: What is it, Mr Chairperson?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Is it a point of order regarding procedure?

Mr Beene: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: You can proceed.

Mr Beene: Mr Chairperson, it is unfortunate I have to rise on a very serious point of order. The Chair has always guided in this august House that those on the right are supposed to debate using a written speech. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President in order to debate from all angles without discussing what is in the Budget? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order raised is intended, obviously, to remind the hon. Ministers to debate from a written statement. However, I have also noticed, so far, that the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President is responding to some statements that were made on the Floor of this House. I will expect that after that, then he will state the policy of his ministry.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful to you for your wise counsel. Really, there have been a lot of fragmented arguments by some people who I always feel are irrelevant to the House. This is not a House for irrelevancies.

Mr Chairperson, I am grateful that the policy of the Government entails that the Vice-President is an assistant to the President. He is the chief adviser to the President. In fact, he has supervisory powers over all the ministries. I cannot force people to understand what I am saying because it is difficult to teach people who are immature in anything.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister will concentrate on his speech and ignore the hecklers.

You may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, it is normal for hecklers to be there. I remember once saying that one day some people will leave this House as raw as they came here. Thus, since such type of people are raw, you cannot teach them anything.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: That will be their demise.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of this House. I also want to thank the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President for articulating the policies of the Government in his office adequately and to the satisfaction of all of us.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to start my debate by raising issues pertaining to the DMMU. I am happy to note that this House did pass a new law pertaining to the management of disasters in this country. I am, however, disappointed to note that this particular piece of legislation will not be useful to this country due to the inadequate resources that have been provided for putting in place its provisions in this year’s Budget. We are all aware that the DMMU is the vehicle we use to respond to all the disasters that occur in this country. We are all aware also that when a disaster occurs, we expect a reasonable and prudent response from this particular department.

I have noted, with concern, Mr Chairperson, that in this year’s Budget, we have provided K14 billion for disaster management. That money is also supposed to cater for all the administrative requirements for this department.

When I look at the actual votes that are intended to adequately respond to the actual disasters, I have noted that there are no adequate provisions that have been provided for them. My friend, Hon. Lubinda, lamented on the issues of drainage in Kabwata, Chawama, Kanyama and other areas of Zambia, but alas when you look at the budget, under Programme 11 – Disaster Response – PRP, Activity 03 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Drainage System and Sanitation or Activity 04 - Facilitate Rehabilitation of Culverts and Bridges, there is no allocation. Where is the money going to come from for this particular activity if you have not provided for it? We are made to understand that this is an activity-based budget. If there is no money provided in this budget for a particular activity, then money is made available, then that activity will be ultra vires to this particular budget.

We are all aware that a number of bridges have remained unattended to for the last four years. A number of culverts and roads have been destroyed as a result of flooding and other disasters. Where is the money to repair them going to come from? It was my understanding that we would make a provision for such works in this year’s Budget.

I have in mind, Mr Chairperson, four bridges in my constituency which were washed away four years ago. To date, these bridges have not been repaired despite reminders being made to the Ministries of Local Government and Housing, Works and Supply as well as the DMMU.

Mr Chairperson, on behalf of Monze Central Constituency, I wish to express my disappointment that despite all the assurances that were made, no tangible measures have been put in place to ensure that the bridges and culverts are repaired.

Sir, I have no doubt in my mind that it is not only Monze Central Constituency that has been affected, but also a number of culverts and bridges in other constituencies of Zambia have remained unattended to for so many years. When will these bridges be repaired if no adequate funding has been provided?

Mr Chairperson, I am reminded that the figure for next year is K59 billion and not K14 billion. All the same, I am aware that to repair a sizeable bridge, you need more than K4 billion. Therefore, with the money that is provided in next year’s Budget, we will not be able to provide for the repairs of these bridges.

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware that the Government has been praising itself over this year’s bumper harvest. How then will it ensure that this so-called bumper harvest is transported to safety if the bridges and roads are not repaired?

Mr Chairperson, I can assure you that a lot of maize that is stored in the rural areas will go to waste. I am aware that it has started raining in certain areas and the maize is being socked. Transporters also cannot move to those areas because of bad roads and bridges that have not been repaired.

I urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to look at this issue seriously and make amendments to next year’s Budget. He should further increase the budgetary allocation, particularly to bridge and road repairs. Otherwise, we will have a disaster pertaining to the protection of the so-called bumper harvest.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to talk about the displacement of people in this country. We are aware that the Government, through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, has been allocating vast tracts of land to prospective miners. It is a good thing to have investment, but it is also good to look after the interests of people. In certain areas, mining companies have been given more than 100,000 hectares of land. Sadly, indigenous people are being displaced and the Government is not making any effort whatsoever to protect their rights.

Sir, I would like to urge the Government to look at this issue seriously. It should be noted that sources of conflicts in other countries are always based on land. If we are not careful, we are sowing seeds of discontent in this country.

I also want to echo the sentiments that have been expressed by my brother, Hon. Nkombo, as regards the unfortunate situation that happened in my elder brother’s constituency, Hon. Hachipuka.

It is unfortunate that thousands of people lost their homes.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: In Macha.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thousands of people have no food security as a result of the unreasonable act of the Zambia Police Service. The police could have used reasonable means of moving those people. It was not wise to set ablaze people’s homes and maize barns. That was uncalled for and inhuman. I expected the Government to promptly respond to the needs of the people. To date, the people of Macha have not been assisted to resettle. I call upon the Government to respond and assist them.

Mr Chairperson, I understand that, in this country, we have no shortage of land. There is land available which Zambians cannot easily access. To the contrary, foreigners can access it easily.

Ms Lundwe: Iwe!

Mr Mwiimbu: I have in mind, Hon. Lundwe, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … areas like the Nansanga Farming Block. Why do we not give priority to Zambians? If you give me a piece of land, I will use it as equity and invite a partner from outside. That is the only way you will empower Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Lundwe interjected

Mr Mwiimbu: Hon. Lundwe, you have denied me land. My suggestion to you, hon. Colleagues, is that land should be made available to Zambians so that they can use it as equity to negotiate with other would-be investors. That is the only way you will uplift the living standards of our people who do not have finances to establish huge farming blocks like the Nansanga.

I know that this is not related to mining, but I appeal to you, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, in your capacity as Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, considering that policies come from your office, to encourage Zambians to acquire mining rights even if they have no finances because they will use that as equity to partner with the Chinese who are looking for mines in Zambia.

I know that the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development does not understand the issue of equity. Equity is an issue which you should consider seriously for the benefit of all Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, my friends mentioned the issue of the on-coming rainy season. We are all aware that, in Zambia, whenever we have a heavy downpour, it is time to celebrate cholera. I do recall that when the MMD Government campaigned against the UNIP in 1991, it used to say, “UNIP, cholera!” Now I say, “MMD, cholera!” It will be with you and with us. We shall be celebrating cholera because of the Government’s poor policies.

I thank you, Sir.

(The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House) Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to a number of issues that have been raised by my colleagues.

Generally, I detected that there is support and recognition of the importance that the Vice-President’s Office holds and the need for the budget to provide adequate resources to ensure that the office operates properly. I appreciate that very substantially.

Mr Chairperson, let me now respond to specific points that were made by the hon. Members. I will start with the point that was raised by Hon. Garry Nkombo, who wondered why we are spending K200 million on data management. I would like to inform him that data management is not about sitting down in a corner with a pencil and adding up figures. It is about organising data relating to disasters and computerising it.

Sir, you will appreciate that, in the modern world, everything works on managing data. If data is stored and managed properly, then it becomes easy to manage a lot of our processes. Therefore, it is very important for the Government to ensure that it invests in computers and technology so that it can keep data properly. We can always go back to that data any time we want. Definitely, that is going to improve the way we manage disasters in future. Really, this is about investment in improving processes so that we do not grope around in the dark.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda wondered why we are spending so much money putting data management under the DMMU and not the councils so that they can plan and develop their areas properly to avoid the probability of disasters recurring. I agree. Really, that is the ideal, but we also need to take into account the realities of what has happened. For example, if you look at the Lusaka City Council (LCC) and its performance as far as organising communities is concerned, it becomes very clear that it is nothing short of a disaster. If you look around, you will see many unplanned settlements. Every other day, we understand that councillors are sharing plots which are being given out haphazardly because there is no planning.

In many of these councils, it is even impossible to see houses located in a straight line. We are not talking about big houses because that is besides the point. The point is that, even if houses are small and modest, at least, there must be decency to ensure that they are properly planned so that they are in lines or streets and have drainages. Alas! The way the LCC and many other councils controlled by the Opposition operate is regrettable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: The houses are just littered all over the place.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Under the circumstances …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister in order to be suggesting, first of all, that there is a qualitative difference between one bankrupt council and another, when the Copperbelt, for example, which has a mixture of the MMD and Patriotic Front (PF) controlled councils and the Southern Province, which also has a mixture of different parties, and yet I have never seen anybody but him demonstrate that it is the Opposition-controlled councils which cannot even hire or fire the officers in those councils, which are somehow responsible for the low standards in this country?

 The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Dr Scott: Is he in order to suggest that the councils are incompetent? Why then is the actual contracting of the work done by the DMMU handed to the council? They are acting as sub-contractors and, therefore, are presumably technically competent. He is politicking. Is he in order?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, first of all, we know that when the hon. Minister is winding up debate, he responds to what you have stated on the Floor of this House. That is the first rule. We all know. Even Hon. Dr Scott who has raised the point of order knows this very well.

Secondly, when the hon. Minister is winding up his debate, he has to respond to the issues raised. We may not like what he is saying, but if that is how he wants to respond and that is the way the Government sees things, we must give him the right to say it just like you were given the right to raise your concerns.

Furthermore, I think it would be helpful to bear in mind that when an hon. Minister is giving the policy statement, we are supposed to listen without raising points of order. Again, this is a procedural issue which we all know.

I gave Hon. Dr Scott the opportunity to raise a point of order and it has given me an opportunity to clarify a point that ought to be well-known by all of us.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to continue my debate.

Just to illustrate a point, in 2009, the Central Government voted K11 billion for the construction of the drainage system in Kanyama Township. The LCC was given the full responsibility to manage the contract to ensure that Kanyama was drained. Unfortunately, the report that I have in my office is that the performance of this contract has been extremely bad as the drainage canals have not been constructed to satisfaction.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, under these circumstances, can the Central Government always rely on some very incompetent councils to look after the interests of the people? So, it is only right that the Government does something to deal with the concerns of the people.

Sir, the LCC may turn around and say, as was being insinuated, that it does not have enough money. However, if you look around and see the properties that are in Lusaka, all it would require is for this council, led by the PF, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … to be more ingenious to go out and collect the revenues that it should be collecting from the residents of Lusaka so that the money can be used to create drainages and clear the culverts. Alas, they are not doing this job. Therefore, in one way or another, we have to do it ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mwiimbu said that the amount of money that has been allocated to respond to disasters is not adequate. Surely, last year, only a few billions were allocated, but this year’s Budget allocation has been increased by slightly over K50 billion. I think we must give credit where it is due. We must acknowledge that this is a very significant improvement from what it was last year. With more money, surely the capacity of dealing with some of the issues that he raised such as the culvert in his constituency and many other destructions caused by the rains should improve.

Sir, as far as the Government is concerned, I think, it has done quite a lot to recognise that, after each rainy season, there are normally many destructions that do occur and this amount of money is meant to specifically deal with those issues.
This is not about fighting between the DMMU and RDA. The RDA looks at the construction of infrastructure, but this particular vote is meant to address the disasters that normally arise as a result of destruction caused by heavy rains.

Mr Chairperson, on the resettlement of people, again, I put this issue to the councils themselves. It is the councils that know that every year, there are disasters. It is the councils that know that if they do nothing and not open up more land, the end result will be informal settlements that we see around. The councils are very inactive, especially the LCC which is controlled by the PF. They know that the population of this city is increasing, but they do not do anything about it.

Mr Chairperson, I would have expected them to be proactive and make projections every year. They should know how many more dwelling spaces are required in this country every year. They should also acquire extra space, but they do not do that. The end result is that industrial land is being grabbed by squatters. People are now grabbing other people’s land, as we were told by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs a few days ago. Surely, if this party that always complains about our incompetence were competent, the issues of lack of land, people fighting for land and people being resettled would not be an issue. There is so much land around. Unfortunately, the councils that are controlled by these colleagues across (PF) are very incompetent. That is why we have these problems.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 02/01 – (Office of the Vice-President – Human Resource and Administration – K8,021,765,272).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 03 – Planning and Budgeting – K91,500,000. In 2009 and 2010, there was K121,500,000. What activity has been scaled down to necessitate the figure to be reduced to K91,500,000?

Mr Chairperson, secondly, on Programme 2, from Activity 10-16, there were no provisions in last year’s Budget. Why have we made the allocations this year and where were you supposed to get the money last year,to undertake these activities?

Mr Chairperson, thirdly, on Programme 5, Activity 02 – Quarterly and Annual Reporting – K25 million, why has the figure reduced by 50 per cent? Last year, you asked for K50 million and have now reduced it by half.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, obviously, each year, you reflect on what transpired last year and make re-arrangements depending on the resources available. That is why there is a change in these figures.

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02/03 – (Office of the Vice-President – Resettlement Department – K3,439,655,182).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 05 – Dip Tank Construction – K9,100,000. How many dip tanks have been planned for because this amount of money is not even enough for one dip tank.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, there is always administration in the resettlement units for dip tanks. It might not necessarily mean construction, but just administration of already existing dip tanks.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 10, Activity 02 – Database Management – K252,924,367. The Acting Vice-President indicated that there are a lot of things involved in database management. The figure has gone up from K68,356,867 last year, to K252,924,367. How is this money going to be used?

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Chairperson, this activity has also been scaled up due to the need to develop database and information systems. The activity is ongoing and the purchases of software requisites and database design shall be procured in subsequent years.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 19/01 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – Headquarters – K59,447,246,851).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Vote 02/05, K14,082,486,762 that was passed under the DMMU, given the fact that disaster management has now been moved and become Vote 19 for which K59 billion has been allocated. I hope that this will be clarified for the record so that we do not approve two figures for this unit.

Having said this, may I have clarification on Programme 11, Activity 03 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Drainage System and Sanitation – K15,515,640,397, Activity 04 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Culverts and Bridges – K25,041,760,142.

Mr Chairperson, on Programme 11, Activity 03 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Drainage System and Sanitation – K15,515,640,397, I would like to find out which drainage and sanitation system will be rehabilitated in 2011 for which the Government is asking the approval of K15.5 billion. In the same vein, which culverts are to be replaced and which bridges are to be constructed as disaster response in 2011 for which this Government is requesting the allocation of K25 billion?

Mr Chairperson, with your permission, I would further like to ask a question on page 315 so that when the hon. Minister responds to my queries, he answers them all.  I would like to have clarification on Programme 9, Activity 01 – Implementation of the Disaster Management Act – K172,189,500. What does implementation of the Act entail when you have provided money for running the whole unit? What more money is required for implementing the Act? May the hon. Minister clarify this?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I wish to concur with Mr Lubinda regarding Vote 02/05, K14,082,486,762. This vote, indeed, shifted to Vote 19. The figure that appears here must be by error because the entire department moved to Vote 19.

Mr Chairperson, further clarification indicates that the K14,082,486,762 is for the other three departments. The DMMU is the one that was allocated K59 billion. We need to be very clear about this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 11, Activity 04 – Facilitate Rehabilitation of Culverts and Bridges – K25,041,760,142, our response is that a disaster is a disaster. The only time we can know which specific units will be addressed is when the disaster occurs. Only then will we make an assessment of what will need to be repaired.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, on Programme 9, Activity 01 – Implementation of the Disaster Management Act –  K172,189,500, a few months ago, we passed this Act and with that, there were some structural changes. For instance, we have disaster management officers at the provincial level now. There is a whole new Act which has come into place. The proposed amount is meant for sensitisation of the people throughout the country, at the provincial and district levels, on how to operate when a disaster has occurred.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 19/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 03 – (National Assembly – Headquarters – K269,576,976,493).

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, as we all know, the procedure of the House does not allow the House to debate itself. We, therefore, go straight to individual items.

Vote 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 04 – (Gender in Development Division – Headquarters – K17, 055,655,245).

The Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Sayifwanda): Mr Chairperson, I would like to apologise to the House that I have a cough. I, therefore, hope that hon. Members will pay attention. 

Interruptions

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Chairperson, from the outset, may I thank you for allowing me to deliver this policy statement on the 2011 Budget for Gender and Women in Development.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: I wish to start by stating that the office of the Minister of Gender and Women in Development was established with the overall mandate to oversee the co-ordination of the implementation of the National Gender Policy and monitor its effectiveness.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: The office is also responsible for resource mobilisation as well as the empowerment of women.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Chairperson, in demonstrating its long-term commitment to gender equality, my office, with the support of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has its own head in the Yellow Book, starting this year, 2010. This shows practical commitment at the highest level in terms of speeding up progress in implementing gender and development programmes in the country.

Mr Chairperson, for my office to deliver on its mandate, the following programmes have been lined up for implementation in 2011.

Mainstreaming Gender into Sector Policies

My office will conduct gender audits in the Ministries of Community Development and Social Services, Justice and Labour and Social Security. This is in addition to the gender audits that were conducted in 2010 in the Ministries of Lands, Agriculture and Co-operatives and Education. These audits have helped to identify some of the constraints and challenges faced in the implementation of gender responsive initiatives, hence the need to continue conducting the gender audits in the various sectors.

Engendering the Public Service

Mr Chairperson, in addition, my office, in 2010, co-ordinated the development of the strategy for engendering the Public Service whose objective is to facilitate implementation and accountability for gender mainstreaming in the Public Service. The strategy will be operationalised in 2011.

Mr Chairperson, the Budget Call Circular for 2011 to 2013 has added further momentum to mainstreaming gender into policies and programmes, as it has, for the first time, clearly set gender as one of the criteria in the budget preparation.

Mr Chairperson, in 2010, my office facilitated the development of two national action plans to Gender Based Violence and Women, Girls and HIV/AIDS. The objectives of the plans are to facilitate a co-ordinated approach to tackling issues of gender-based violence and HIV/AIDS as it relates to women and girls. These plans will be operationalised in 2011.

Economic Empowerment of Women

Mr Chairperson, in 2010, Parliament appropriated K5 billion to the Office of the Minister of Gender and Women in Development for the economic empowerment of women in Zambia. I wish to inform this august House that these funds are being utilised for the intended purpose. In this regard, …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, my sister is sick. What does the procedure of the House say when the hon. Minister is sick? Can the hon. Deputy Minister or Acting Leader of Government Business not read for us so that we can understand that very important policy statement because we cannot hear? She is sick and needs to be assisted.

Hon. Opposition Members: She is unwell!

Mrs Masebo: Sir, I am sorry. She is unwell.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: What are the Government roles? We can hardly hear her voice and cannot understand what she is saying. There is also too much noise from our men. They seem not to be interested in women’s issues. I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The point of order raises concern about the hon. Minister’s health but, so far, I can hear her quite clearly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The problem is that there is too much noise in the House. Hon. Members will be quiet and listen to her and be concerned about her health as she talks. She is already on the Floor. She has offered to speak and she will speak.

May she continue.

Dr Musokotwane) (on behalf of Ms Sayifwanda) Mr Chairperson, I will continue from where the hon. Minister left off.

Sir, I wish to inform this august House that these funds are being utilised for the intended purpose. In this regard, the office has facilitated the training of women groups in entrepreneurship skills in various provinces, namely Southern, Central, Lusaka, Eastern and will soon facilitate training in the Northern Province.

Mr Chairperson, this is an on-going programme that will cover all provinces. Apart from facilitating entrepreneurship training programmes, the office facilitated the procurement of 150 hammer mills. Most of these have been distributed while others are awaiting collection. In addition, the office has procured 150 treadle pumps and drip irrigation systems that will be distributed soon. Further, the office will soon start disbursing some grants to some women clubs as startup capital.

2011 Budget

Mr Chairperson, in 2011, empowerment and capacity building among stakeholders will be another area of priority. In this budget, we have proposed an allocation of K11 billion. The objective of the Economic Empowerment Programme will be to support economic empowerment activities of women. In this regard, focus will be on training of women in entrepreneurship skills, providing them with startup capital and, at the same time, facilitate expansion of their respective business. In addition, the office will facilitate the procurement value addition equipment for various enterprises in agriculture, livestock such as meat processing, milking equipment, juice making and other such equipment. The procurement of treadle pumps and family drip irrigation systems, including hammer mills will be continued, but these will be guided by demand and necessity.

Capacity Building in Gender Analytical Skills

Mr Chairperson, capacity building is an important activity which will continue in 2011. As you may be aware, in 2010, the office facilitated the training of District Gender Focal Point Persons in gender analysis. This is out of the realisation that many of our stakeholders lack gender analytical skills and are, therefore, not able to adequately address gender issues in their respective sectors. In 2011, we will continue to build capacities of officials from the line ministries to ensure that they effectively mainstream gender into their operations.

Monitoring and Evaluation

Mr Chairperson, another area of focus shall be monitoring and evaluation of implementation of gender and development programmes. The operations of the Gender Sub-committees at the various levels shall be strengthened through the provision of monitoring and evaluation instruments. Activities, therefore, shall be undertaken in order to ensure that databases with gender disaggregated data are established in the various sectors. Monitoring and evaluation missions will be undertaken to provinces and districts in order to ascertain the implementation of gender mainstreaming programmes.

Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to inform this House that with the support of our co-operating partners, we are providing operational funds to the District Gender Focal Points to enhance their operations.

Mr Chairperson, focus will also be placed on disseminating information relating to gender, including research findings, sensitising on legislation on gender-based violence, gender disaggregated data, information on HIV/AIDS prevalence, including implementation of the HIV/AIDS Workplace Policy. In 2011, therefore, focus in this area will be on the implementation of the gender and development communication strategy utilising the electronic and print media to address negative attitudes towards gender. The office will also continue to co-ordinate the International Women’s Day and the Sixteen Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence and will use these events to raise awareness on gender.

Sir, as I conclude, I wish to take this opportunity to appeal to hon. Members of this august House to support the proposed 2011 budget for this office.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, thank you. I have only one issue I would like to talk about. Incidentally, I want to take advantage of this opportunity and refer to Question 133 in regard to hammer mills which lapsed this afternoon.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

That question lapsed and you cannot revive it. You can generally talk about hammer mills, but you cannot resuscitate a lapsed question.

Mr Mooya: Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to explain to this House, when she comes to wind up debate, what the policy is regarding the distribution of hammer mills.

Mr Chairperson, I have raised this issue because in the policy statement, the hon. Minister mentioned that 150 hammer mills were bought and distributed to 150 constituencies. However, it seems there are two methods of distribution of these hammer mills. Some hammer mills are either given to Members of Parliament or Provincial Permanent Secretaries. I would like to find out the criteria used in the distribution of hammer mills.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this important Vote.

From the outset, the number of activities that the Department of Gender has lined up for the year, clearly show that there is a need to create a Ministry of Gender and not a division. Such activities are meant for a ministry and not a division.

Sir, allow me to add a few more activities besides the ones that the hon. Minister has mentioned. Before I do that, I wish to state the K17 billion allocation given to this division is not enough, considering the number of activities read out by the hon. Minister. I do not know whether she will manage to carry out half of the activities she said she was going to conduct. I believe that if this division was a ministry, the allocation was going to be a lot more than K17 billion. I have heard about ministries that have been allocated K200 billion ma K300 billion …

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: … but only K17 billion has been given to her because …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member will have to interpret the word “ma.”

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, the word “ma” means this.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: There are other activities that the division is supposed to conduct that she did not mention. She did not say whether women are going to be sensitised on their rights. A lot of women in this country, especially in the rural areas, do not know their rights. Therefore, it is the duty of this division to sensitise the women countrywide.

Sir, it is the duty of this division to sensitise the community on the bad effects of early marriages. It is also the duty of this division to sensitise women on the high levels of HIV/AIDS and high risks of mothers and children dying. This ministry has a lot of activities to be carried out.

It is the responsibility of this division to sensitise the communities on the dangers of arranged marriages not only for the daughters, but also sons. Arranged marriages are usually done between boys and girls even if they do not like or love each other, but because their families get along, they will force them to marry. For this reason, this division has a big responsibility.

However, I wish to thank the Government for sending the Law and Development Commission to go round the country sensitising women on customary law. I have always said that we need the Customary Law Act because, without it, women are losing out a lot, especially in the rural areas. Even in towns, we have seen very educated people like lawyers, lecturers from universities and teachers grabbing property from widows. If this is happening in towns, what more in the rural areas? In the rural areas, some women are also grabbed because everyone wants to marry them since they have lost a husband. Now, because they do not know their rights, the women just sit quietly waiting for whoever will take them to whatever destination. We need all these issues to be put in the Act so that no in-law claims somebody’s wife unless the woman willingly chooses to marry him.

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I do not know whether Hon. Pande wants to marry a widow because he seems to be interested in what I am saying.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Why do we not have a Ministry of Gender? We have a gender policy in place which is talking about empowering women economically and socially, but until we have a ministry, we will not achieve much because the tasks which lie ahead are enormous. We need a Ministry of Gender which is going to be funded adequately. Everything is in place …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is loud communication on my right. Could the hon. Members, please, communicate quietly so that I can follow the debate of the hon. Member on the Floor?

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, before your guidance, I was saying that besides the gender policy, we have other initiatives in place such as the focal point persons at every ministry and some are in provinces and districts waiting for a ministry to be established so that they do their work. When we have a ministry in place, more money will go directly to the districts unlike now when we have K17 billion for seventy three districts. This amount is not enough for each district to get K1 billion. How are we going to sensitise the women on a lot of issues when we have meagre resources? Besides, even here at Parliament we have a committee dealing with gender issues which should work hand in hand with the Ministry of Gender so that its role is felt in the country. However, because we do not have a Ministry of Gender, all the programmes that I have talked about have not taken off. We need a well-funded ministry solely responsible for gender.

Mr Chairperson, there are many issues relating to women in this country which are not taken seriously. I hope the Law Development Commission is going to accelerate its activities so that an Act on Customary Law is put in place before the General Elections next year. After all, gender matters are cross-cutting issues. I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development, who has no ministry, and the hon. Minister of Education, who are both women, to liaise so that gender issues are included in the school curriculum. This will make it possible for children to know about gender issues at an early age. This will help the male children to know that the girl sitting next to them is a partner and not a follower or leader.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I want the male hon. Members to listen very carefully because they are fathers who need to inculcate this knowledge in their children in their homes. This knowledge should not only be inculcated in children in schools, but also in homes so that male children know how to handle the girl child. As hon. Members, we need to lead by example. When I visit your home, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa, I want my tea to be made by your son and not your daughter. Making tea is just putting hot water in a cup. Anybody can do that. As hon. Members, we need to lead by example so that when we go to our constituencies to talk about these issues, we will be talking from experience and be an example to our electorate.

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Laughter

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief in my contribution to the debate on the Floor of this House. I wish to, firstly, register my disappointment at the meagre allocation to this department.

Mr Chairperson, like Hon. Musokotwane has said, I am imagining how the Permanent Secretary will manage the affairs of this division with K17 billion. From the look of things, this ministry has started on a good note because, for the first time, it has shown that the national cake can best be shared through constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, the Gender in Development Division demonstrated this when it started giving out hammer mills. Regarding this issue, I would like to state that it was very difficult to choose clubs to benefit from this programme. One hammer mill was not enough for my constituency because this is a rural constituency which needs a good number of them. With the K17 billion the Government has allocated to this division, it will be very difficult for it to continue with such a good programme that we have supported. This is why somebody said that he was going to turn the hammer mill into a mobile one. How he is going to do that is something I do not know. He was suggesting that because hammer mills are needed in all the corners of the country.

Mr Chairperson, like the other hon. Member pointed out, this money is not enough to even attend to issues of abuse of women in the country. We also know that they are men who are abused by women. Some men, even if they work, when it is payday, they do not see their salaries because they are grabbed by their wives. The men would also like to be protected. It should not only be women who should be protected. Some men cannot just come out in the open to state their situation of not having peaceful sleep at night.

Ms Siliya: Ulula!

Laughter

Mr Malama: This allocation is not enough. In my constituency there is an area called Kamwendo and when I visited it, I found small girls who were about to be married off. Sir, at some point I had no choice, but to disturb the plans of some parents who got lobola from the parents of a small boy to marry off a very young girl who was about twelve years old. I started to imagine how this marriage would work out because I have a son who is the same age as the boy who I regard to be too young for such. I had no choice, but to take this girl to my home.

Mr V. Mwale: Uzaletapo che milandu iwe!

Laughter
  
Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, if this department was given enough money, I am sure such bad activities in rural areas would be reduced. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to help this division by allocating more money to it so that it can do a good job. This is why, when you visit some of these departments, the answers that you receive when you ask certain questions, sometimes, might make you think that you are being teased, and yet you are not. I do not know how this allocation of K17,055,655,245 is going to help my brothers  and sisters who are in that department.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo was seated and not indicating.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Kasongo.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to make my humble contribution to this important Vote. As other hon. Members of Parliament have ably said, this is a very important department which should be transformed into a fully-fledged ministry.

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I think we have been asking the Government to take action along those lines. It is only when this department is transformed into a fully-fledged ministry that the rural women will begin to celebrate. At the moment, the work of the department is not even felt at the provincial level. It is not even present at the district level, hence making it extremely difficult for women to articulate their views on their welfare. Unfortunately, we normally address this department through Lusaka-based when women are not just found in Lusaka. We want this department to be transformed into a ministry so that it will be decentralised to the provincial district levels.

Ms Sayifwanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, only then will women appreciate the work done by this department.

Mr Chairperson, you just have to look at how selfish men are even here in this House where they do not even advocate for a ministry to advocate for more women in Parliament. Women face a lot of difficulties to become parliamentarians. How many women parliamentarians are here?

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Very few. How many female hon. Ministers are here? You can even easily count them. The majority are Deputy Ministers.

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, it is high time we changed our attitude so that we attain equality in terms of representation starting from Parliament itself.

Ms Cifire: Dr Kasongo.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, after all, women have demonstrated that they have the capacity and ability to deliver services to our people.

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, if you look at, for example, the programmes which have been introduced to empower women, the results have been seen within a short time. I will fully debate this issue when we debate the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

If you look at the Michael Kaingu model, where women are given money to empower themselves without it passing through a bureaucratic channel because the money is given directly to the women to go and multiply it, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … a lot is achieved. The programme of empowering women through hammer mills that has already been referred to is already producing good results within a short time.

Ms Siliya: Long live.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, when we empower women, we shall see changes in our society. Let us do away with the selfishness of men in our communities. I would like to implore all political parties to make sure that in 2011, they adopt more women than men.

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I should emphasise the point that those of you who belong to management committees or central committees in political parties or whatever the tag you have given yourselves, please, make sure that you adopt more women as parliamentary candidates.

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I would not mind if I was allowed to rest and a woman was picked from my constituency to replace me. I will campaign for that candidate. It is so embarrassing that we continue to celebrate important national days when women continue to be marginalised. I have in mind the celebration which took place at State House and other parts of the country recently. We celebrated forty-six years of independence, and yet we have not liberated our women. How many are they here in Parliament?

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, how many are they in the Civil Service? How many are they in the Ministry of Education, for example? When making promotions, we should be fighting to ensure that women get some of these positions. You are a fighter, Hon. Siliya. Those of you who are privileged to lead ministries, like Hon. Siliya, should fight to get women promoted.

Hon. Government Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, the problem that you have is that you are enemies of yourselves, you women.

Hon. Government Female Members: Zoona!

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: The moment you are given a particular position, you do not want to promote fellow women. You just want to promote men. Why are you so selfish?

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, we, men, are very supportive of you, but what is needed is for you to be supportive of each other.

Hon. Government Female Members: Question!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, if, today, you got the files, for example, for those who are heading high schools, you will find that the majority of them are men, and yet the hon. Minister of Education is female.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Why do you not empower yourselves so that we can have as many women as possible in influential positions? After all, the President has shown you that he wants to promote as many women as possible. For example, you look at the list of candidates that we approved in this House to be Judges. Why can you not do the same? What is your problem, you women? Do not blame us, men, because we are very supportive, but you must also be seen to be supporting each other. When it comes to promotions, you would rather recommend men, and yet you are in charge. When are you going to liberate yourselves?

Mr Chairperson, the onus is on you. As men, we will continue to support you, but take the lead to empower yourselves. If it means seeing the Head of State if you are worried that you will be fired, please, do so. For me, I would sacrifice my position just to promote my fellow men. You should also be doing the same. If you came to my constituency, for example, you would find that the majority of people managing schools are men when the hon. Minister of Education is female. Look at her.

Mr Kasongo pointing at Hon. Siliya.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: What are you waiting for? Let me tell you one thing. The Head of State works through hon. Ministers. When you go to the Head of State to complain that you are disadvantaged because there are few women in influential positions, he promotes some of you to be in charge of these critical ministries. He does so deliberately so that you can elevate your fellow women, but you do not take advantage of that opportunity. You do not make use of that opportunity, but when you are transferred to another ministry that is when you ask for the people you have left behind to be promoted. What were you doing when you were hon. Minister in that ministry?

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: Yes, the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development is doing extremely well. She must be commended for that. The programme that she has initiated of empowering women through hammer mills is commendable but, as other hon. Members of Parliament have said, we want the hon. Minister in charge of the Treasury to give her a lot of money so that each constituency should have, at least, twenty hammer mills. You can perform wonders with this.

We are happy that hammer mills do not attract any duty. This will enable the Government and other institutions import as many hammer mills as possible so that women are empowered economically. When we do this, poverty will be a thing of the past.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, I notice that the same points are being repeated. I still have four names of hon. Members on my list and I will try and see whether we are going to speak on different issues rather than repeating the same issues.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support this important Vote on gender and thank our male colleagues who are always in support of women’s cause.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: It is becoming common to hear men say that women do not support each other. That assertion is not correct and I think it should not be made reference to because that is what weakens us even further. So, though I thank Hon. Kasongo for his support for women, I disagree with his adoption of the slogan of us not supporting each other. Speaking from personal experience, the people who support me in Chongwe Constituency are mostly women. Even the majority of votes I get are from women. This is not to say men do not support me.

I just want to point out that women are also human beings and, therefore, have feelings. A woman can hate another woman just like a man can hate a fellow man and vice versa, hence there is nothing peculiar about some women not getting along. The fact that we are women does not mean that we should love each other 100 per cent. It is not normal.

Mr Mabenga: You should be in love with men.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: I just thought that we should not use that assertion out of context and weaken women even more. That notwithstanding, I want to thank Hon. Kasongo for being consistent in supporting gender equality as a man.

 Mr Chairperson, I have, however, noticed that when the debate on gender issues starts, there is a lot of noise as can be heard. That explains the lack of seriousness that some of our colleagues here attach to gender matters. When we talk about the CDF and water and sanitation matters, there is a lot of co-operation among hon. Members. However, when we come to gender matters, some people view the topic as a joke. Some hon. Members do not seem to take the issue seriously. Therefore, I would like to urge the menfolk to realise that they are here because of me, the woman. Without the woman, they would not have been born.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, it is important that they look at us as their mothers, sisters, wives or colleagues.

Hon. Male Members: As wives.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: I think that it is very important that we attach great importance to this debate because the issues of gender, especially those to do with women, are cardinal to humanity. That is why there is a saying that goes, “When you educate one woman, you have educated the whole family.” In this country, today, much of the development taking place is because of the womenfolk, especially in the informal sector. Even in the formal sector, wherever there is a woman or girl working, one can see that they are really committed to their work. For example, each one of the three or four female hon. Ministers …

Ms Changwe and Ms Cifire: Three.

Mrs Masebo: … is individually trying to show that she is the best hon. Minister. That is how committed the womenfolk are. As for the men, it is business as usual for most of them.

Hon. Male Members: Aah!

Mrs Masebo: That is a fact.

Ms Changwe and Ms Cifire: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I just want to commend the Government for the improvements made in terms of ensuring that we get more women to participate in the various sectors of our economy. I think somebody was talking about the number of women appointed as Judges, the Deputy Speaker, Auditor-General, Deputy Governor of the Bank of Zambia and some deputy mayors. This is how thins ought to be though a lot more needs to be done. Zambia is lagging far behind as compared to countries like Rwanda, South Africa and Namibia. Our colleagues are doing much better.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We signed the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on 30 per cent Female Representation in Decision-Making Positions, but we are nowhere near achieving this. The percentage of female representation in this protocol has since been increased to 50 per cent.

I think this is an issue that the Gender in Development Division (GIDD) needs to look at in its gender mainstreaming efforts. Gender mainstreaming is very important. Therefore, the hon. Minister needs to go to the Ministry of Education to ensure that the educational parity regarding gender is being achieved. Just this morning, we were told that very little progress had been made in this direction. This is what the Forum for African Women Educationalists of Zambia (FAWEZA) was educating us on this morning at a workshop.

Mr Chairperson, next year, we are going for elections. What is GIDD doing to ensure that we will have more women participating in the local government elections for them to become councillors in this country? The reason most councils are failing is that there are too many men doing nothing there.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Managing a council is like running a home. A home that has a husband and wife is well-looked after because the husband does things such as fixing bulbs, while the wife does chores such as sweeping the house. Therefore, the division of work is always balanced. On the other hand, a man living alone faces a lot of challenges. The same applies to a woman living alone.

This is why we need equal gender representation at the local government level as well as in this House. This will enable us work together in a more efficient way. Gender representation in both Parliament and councils is imbalanced at the moment. This is why we have problems such as too much politicking. It is evident that every female hon. Member of Parliament in here is working hard to develop her constituency.

Ms Changwe and Ms Cifire: Tell them.

Mrs Masebo: I am not saying that men are not working, but I just want to talk about women because they have less support from the Government and everybody else.

Therefore, the hon. Minister needs to start working with various ministries to ensure that women take centre stage. The other day, I was asking the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how much of the fertiliser under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) would be accessed by women. I am sure we all know that the answer to this question is that 70 per cent will be men and 30 per cent women, if we are lucky. This is not fair.

The hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development needs to go to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to ensure that the statement that was made on the Floor of this House is followed through. She should ensure that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives sends a circular to the District Agriculture Co-ordinating Officers (DACO) to tell them that when they are giving out fertiliser, they must take into account gender equality.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of access to land, we like making too many statements about the empowerment for women and so on and so forth, but what have we done to ensure that more women have access to land from 1991 to date? We just talk, but we do not act. We need to act. The Ministry of Lands needs to provide data to show that, for example, 800 acres of land in Chongwe’s Kanakantapa area was advertised and so many women were given as compared to men. That is what we need for us to see that we are moving forward. We should not just give lip service to issues of empowering women when, at the end of the day, nothing is being implemented.

Mr Chairperson, let me move on to the issue of gender-based violence. We have been talking about this since last year. Therefore, we are tired and have lost track of what is happening regarding the law on gender-based violence. When is the Bill on this coming to this House? We are tired of men beating us up.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Can we have an Act on gender-based violence instead of just talking about it endlessly.

Mr Chairperson, the other point I wanted to raise was that, I think, the budget allocation to gender development is very small. Nonetheless, the hon. Minister has to network with other sector ministries to push for the women’s agenda. Secondly, she has to work with non-governmental organisations (NGOs) in this country. NGOs in Zambia are doing a commendable job in terms of women’s issues. Therefore, GIDD must work very closely with these organisations. The hon. Minister must not side with men who, sometimes, unnecessarily criticise these organisations because they have been very helpful in our constituencies and the nation at large. GIDD must partner with them, especially that it has a small budget since some donors prefer giving money to NGOs instead of the Government. The hon. Minister can push her department’s agenda by networking with NGOs.

Mr Chairperson, another issue I want to talk about is that of the domestication of international protocols on women’s rights. We are a signatory to a number of protocols relating to women’s issues but, again, it is just …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was talking about GIDD.

Sir, an amount of K11 billion has been allocated as a grant to support women’s economic activities. I think this is a good way of doing things. We are moving in the right direction. Of course, the resources may not be enough considering that women comprise over 50 per cent of the population and that a lot of problems in this nation affect the womenfolk. Therefore, it is clear that GIDD needs a lot of support.

Mr Chairperson, I noticed that there is also support to women’s programmes under the Ministry of Kaingu.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Sorry, I meant the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services under Hon. Kaingu. Therefore, there  is a need for the two hon. Ministers to sit down together and see how best they can harmonise gender issues so that there is no duplication of administrative costs because it is the same women being helped.

Mr Chairperson, I have also noted that this money that is allocated to women, sometimes, ends up in a bottomless pit, especially when it is not enough. Women, for example, are given K500,000 or K1 million for projects. Honestly speaking, what can one do with this amount of money today? At the end of the day, it just looks like the money is given for political reasons because it seems it is forgotten about once given. That is why women’s groups are not developing because the money given as capital is very little and there is not much they can do with it.

Furthermore, the processes that they get into to access these funds are sometimes complicated, especially for women in the village. One of the requirements is to have a club registration certificate and a bank account with a balance of K100,000.

Therefore, I appeal to the Government to look at this issue and see how best it can support the women. The Government must come up with a mechanism to ensure that this money, K5 billion, K10 million and K11 billion, goes to programmes where we can see results.  Truthfully speaking, there are very few women who can show you something tangible they have done with this money if you went around most of the constituencies in the country.

Mr Chairperson, you find that they only meet when the hon. Minister or an hon. Member of Parliament visits them to give them the money. When the money finishes, they stop meeting. Again, when they hear that there is a budget allocation, they start meeting. So, I think that we are wasting money. We need to do more to help the women, especially in terms of skills development and how to run businesses. I think we are missing something there. Generally, we are not doing very well with regard to women’s activities or projects because they are not sustainable. That is the point I want to make here.

Sir, I wish to thank the hon. Minister for the 150 hammer mills that have been distributed. They will go a long way in reducing poverty among women in the rural areas who still walk long distances to get their maize grinded. However, like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said in the 2011 Budget Address, this is not enough. I agree with him, suggest that, maybe, in future, the amount be increased.

On the issue of making the department a ministry, I am not going to say anything because I can clearly see that there is no political will to turn that department into a ministry. Maybe, this has to wait until I become President because I will ensure that the department becomes a ministry. This is because issues of women are too important to be trivialised.

Mrs Musokotwane: When is that?

Mrs Masebo: Just wait.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: So, Mr Chairperson, the issues of women are just too important to be left to a department which has to go through several other leaders to make a decision. I do not think the hon. Minister responsible for GIDD is the last person to approve anything. Apart from the President, there must be two hon. Ministers who go through something before it is approved. Clearly, that dilutes the powers of the hon. Minister responsible for that department.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Sir, it has become very apparent that when you talk about gender, people think it is just about women. No, it is just that we emphasise on women because between the two genders, the woman is the one who is marginalised and is weak. So, that is why we should help women …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: … because they are the majority voters. Even in 2011, women are the ones who will vote for the President and hon. Members of Parliament. Most of these hon. Members are here because of their wives, …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mrs Masebo: ... and yet most of them do not even go to their constituencies. It is their wives who go to the constituencies to work on their behalf. So, you can see how important women are ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for according me this opportunity to debate. I will be brief.

Sir, first and foremost, I want to state that when this department was introduced, I was one of the people who did not appreciate it. However, from its inception, it has been run by an excellent hon. Minister who deserves the praise of everybody.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo.

Mr Kambwili: The hon. Minister heading this department is a parent and I think other hon. Ministers must learn from her.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: When you go to her office, Mr Chairperson, you feel that you are a part of this Government. You are treated like an outcast when you go to the offices of some of these hon. Ministers.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I urge the hon. Minister to continue with the good work and God should richly bless her.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: Secondly, I want to thank the hon. Minister, again, for having laid a very strong foundation in as far as women’s empowerment is concerned. Like Hon. Masebo said, the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development must take a leaf from her. She has given K20 million to each club, but the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development only gives K1 million per club. What can be done with K1 million? The hon. Minister should keep up the good work that is being done. We are waiting for the K20 million, treadle pumps and we expect ...

Mr Chipungu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Roan, who is debating poorly, in order ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Chipungu: ... to allege that my ministry only distributes K1 million per club when, in fact, it is on record that it is K2 million per club and K20 million in each constituency for ten clubs?

Ms Cifire: Hammer!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I am really disappointed that most of the hon. Members on your left, including Hon. Kambwili, have not applied for these funds at all. I do not know what they are waiting for. Is he in order to tell a lie?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister has debated his point of order.

The hon. Member for Roan may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Thank you, Sir. There is absolutely no difference between K1 million and K2 million.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I thought the hon. Minister would say that his ministry would be giving out K10 million per club. Hon. Minister, you still need to do more. The K2 million per club is not enough.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, due to the inadequacy of the K2 million, I am reliably informed that a club was given K2 million which it said it would use to rear chickens. However, when the inspectors went there, they did not find any broiler chickens but village chickens which were free range. The inspectors were asked to go back and inspect in the evening when the chickens would go back to roost.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: It is because of such low funding that people squander the money and give all sorts of stories.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development to keep this spirit up. This year, hon. Minister, you have K11 million from the K10 million you had and we expect you to go further by giving two hammer mills and K20 million to two clubs in each constituency. This will go a long way.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, as a country, we have realised that there is gender imbalance. The pendulum of opportunities is tilted towards men and, therefore, there is a need to ensure equality.

Hon. Female Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: In the African culture, a man was regarded to be more superior and expected to own everything. Times have changed and we all must appreciate this reality.

This ministry is basically an inter-ministerial one because the opportunities for women to access lie across ministries. Therefore, it will not deliver the facilities to the women directly. Even if it becomes a ministry, it will continue to touch all ministries as they have all mainstreamed gender and consider issues of gender imbalance.

Mr Chairperson, for example, the FISP has not mainstreamed gender because it is biased towards men. I come from a rural constituency and most of the people with the ability to register co-operatives and clubs are men. Naturally, even if the women are the majority in our country, more men receive more fertilisers than women. This is despite the fact that currently, there are many households that are headed by women.  Therefore, we are actually spreading poverty. The debate on poverty must go deeper.

We are saying that the economy is growing, but there are no benefits. In the same vein, we are giving a lot of support to farmers, but women are becoming poorer. This issue must be addressed.

Mr Chairperson, in your inter-ministerial outreach with some of the key ministries such as the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, you must impress upon them to address the issue of input and marketing as they relate to women

Mr Chairperson, we must clearly segregate the FISP. We need to know what percentage of that support goes to women directly. We must have those figures. Women become poorer even when the economy is improving because only men get the opportunities.

 I, therefore, encourage the department to be aggressive in reaching out to the different ministries so that they become sensitive to the reality of gender imbalance.

Mr Chairperson, with the HIV/AIDS scourge and high rate of divorce, marriage is no longer in fashion. The trend, currently, is that people want to live on their own and are free to do that. That is one of the reasons we have many households headed by women. They must be given equal opportunities because times have changed.

Mr Chairperson, a long time ago, there were very few households headed by women. However, we believe that women are equal to men and must stand in their God-given personality. They must not ask from anybody. In the same vein, the man must not be the one opening the door and closing it when they want. That should come to an end. Women must be strong enough to do that.

Mr Chairperson, I want to say that this is now reflecting …

Mr Mubika: Question!

Mr Hamududu: Mubika, I need to come to your house so that I can teach you how to be a man.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Hon. Deputy Minister, I will come to your house so that I can talk to your wife.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, one of the problems that is compounding the vulnerability of women relates to teenagers. It is amazing how disadvantaged the girl child is. The rural areas have a high percentage of young girls who have babies. When I went to witness the national registration exercise in my constituency, I found young women in the age range of eighteen to twenty-one standing in the queue and half of them had babies. I took time to ask whether they were married, but none of them was.

This compounds the problems of women. I think that the programme for empowering women must begin with the girl child so that she is not subjected to pregnancy by selfish men.

Mr Chairperson, in the era of condoms, it is unfair that the girl child should carry unwanted babies. Most young men even deny responsibility for the pregnancies. That is very irresponsible. How can one refuse one’s own blood?

These are realities in the villages. Therefore, we must go down to the primary schools and ensure that we arrest the problem of teenage pregnancies. Otherwise, we will not achieve the Vision 2030 because the population which is supposed to carry us to Vision 2030 is compromised at the moment. The future of this country is compromised.

 Mr Chairperson, a larger share of the empowerment fund must go to the girl child and women because they take care of society. Some men run away from their families. A woman can never run away from her children.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: My own great mother, who is a widow, holds the family together. At the moment she is the anchor.

Mr Chairperson, I thank my grandfather who was wise enough to distribute his animals amongst his children, including the girl children. I want to tell you that amongst those children, the women are the ones who still have animals. That wealth has been passed on from generation to generation. I received that inheritance and have passed it on to my children who are in primary school. My children are already small millionaires. I take them to the Kafue Flats, every now and then, to show them the animals that are there all because of empowering a woman. My uncles who were also given animals have ‘finished’ them.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Empowering a woman is also a way of securing our wealth. Your debate in the inter-ministerial functions on empowering women should not also be one sided. I agree that we need to increase the percentage of women representation in decision-making positions to 50 per cent. That is just one small aspect. The most important one is that of availing economic opportunities to all women across the country.

Mr Chairperson, a country can have fewer women in structures but, if economic opportunities are available, they will be much better.

I think that the debate on empowering women should be holistic. The women in the Executive only talk about 30 per cent female representation in Parliament. They forget about the many women who are not accessing the FSIP and whose crops – there are crops for women in the villages if you did not know. For example, in my area, groundnuts, sweet potatoes and cassava are crops for women – do not have a marketing arrangement.

In my constituency, there are women who sit by the roadside, selling sweet potatoes. The Government has no programme to help them market them. They are exploited. They sleep there. You can see them as you travel to Livingstone around Monze. The women sit there to sell their sweet potatoes. In your marketing arrangement, women are not considered. If you only concentrate on maize marketing, you have to realise that maize is mostly grown by men. We need to market and help process crops that are grown by women.

In countries such as Kenya, sweet potatoes are processed and preserved and they have a high market value. However, we are not investing in crops women produce so that they can also have money in their pockets. They can tie their money to their Chitenges while the men put it in their pockets. We must put money in Chitenges also ...

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: … and in pillows …

Hon. Member: In the bra.

Mr Hamududu: … and also in the bras. Yes, women put their money there.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: As I conclude, I would like to say that the vulnerability of women is reported in the media. Zambian women are caught drug trafficking in Pakistan, China, Thailand and even here in Zambia. In the last one year, over ten women have been caught drug trafficking because of their vulnerability. Therefore, we need to empower these women. In fact, it is the men who send these women to traffic drugs. The women are really suffering.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to see a situation where hon. Members of Parliament show a good example to change this stereotype. We, the men, in this Parliament, must lead by example. For instance, during one weekend, we must be the ones washing for our families.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Even these hon. Ministers should wash clothes and cook for the women.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This will enable them advise the boy child. For example, I only have daughters and one condition that I have given to boys who want to live in my house is that they must do the same work that my girls are doing.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: If, today, the girls are cooking, tomorrow it will be the boys to do the cooking. If they cannot do that, then they must get out of my house.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This is because my girl child is as important as the boy child.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu:  Sometimes, I also work in my house. For example, when my wife is sleeping, she asks me to make a cup of tea for her. I make tea for her ….

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … and take it to the bedroom. Therefore, men must show an example. You people must also pika nsima (cook nshima).

Hon. Members: A Tonga?

Mr Hamududu: Yes, I am a civilised Tonga.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: I wash clothes for my wife.

Mr Hamududu: I wash everything for her, including underwear ...

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: I also …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … cook for her.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: I am a real man.

Mr Chairperson, finally, with regard to the issue of accessibility to empowerment funds, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development …

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Sir, I need your protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Hamududu: Stop the watch!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, there is only one person debating.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, finally, I would like to say that women are facing a lot of problems to register their clubs. The Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is distributing funds, but one of the requirements for accessing those funds is that they must have a certificate of registration. It is very difficult for the women in these districts to acquire the certificates. These certificates are also expensive because they have to pay K250,000 to the Registrar of Societies to get them. Sometimes, when women apply for these certificates in Monze or Kasempa, it takes about three months for a certificate to be issued. It is not because hon. Members of Parliament do not want to bring certificates, it is just difficult.

Therefore, in your role as inter-ministerial co-ordinator, you must tell the ministry concerned with the registration of clubs, to take this service to the districts so that these certificates are easily obtained by the women. Otherwise, some women have lost out because it is practically difficult to get a certificate. Please, do not just avail money, but also tell Hon. Kaingu, as he moves around in misisi, to address the issue of registration of clubs in far-flung areas. Otherwise, women are suffering because they have to come to town for them get certificates. Therefore, it is very important that your approach is holistic. Remove these bottlenecks so that the women can access these funds.

Mr Chairperson, it is also very difficult for girls to access funds from the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development because they are supposed to have certificates of registration which they are also finding difficult to acquire from the districts. The hon. Minister is claiming that hon. Members of Parliament are not bringing certificates. Where can we get them from? When you go to the Co-operative Department, they will tell you that they do not issue certificates. If you go to the Department of Social Welfare, they will tell you to go Lusaka. This Government must be well co-ordinated because the districts have no capacity to give certificates for youth and women’s clubs.

Interruptions

Mr Chipungu: Are you sure?

Mr Hamududu: Yes, I live in my district. I do not live in Lusaka like you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You are my brother.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to debate on this Vote. I was wondering if I had become invisible since I have been indicating for a long time.

Sir, in my contribution in support of the Vote on the Gender in Development Division, I wish to, first of all, begin by commending the hon. Minister, her hon. Deputy Minister and also the Head of State …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: … because I see that tomorrow, a Motion for us to adopt a Select Committee report, which is proposing the appointment of four women to the Judiciary, will be moved in this House. Not a single man is involved, but all the four nominees are women. This is a step in the right direction, considering that, in the past, women occupied few positions compared to men in the Judicature. This is the right way to go.

Now, when we come to the ministry, in spite of the fact that the two ladies have done very well, there is a need for them to be more committed activists because, you see, pakwakana ubunga tapaba insoni.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: This means that if you have to share a piece of cake or something, you have to be tough. Do not be shy. The truth of the matter is that men are used to occupying the positions that are up there. You cannot just get these things on a silver platter because the men will not just give them up freely. You know, when you go to campaign in the constituencies, for those women who have tried to campaign before, they know it is not easy because men will not say they will not campaign because they are competing with a woman

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: It is not going to be easy. Therefore, I would like my two colleagues in the ministry to be a little more aggressive. In fact, like one of my colleagues have said, this should not end at the division or ministry, but they should be advocating for the establishment of a gender desk at each ministry. There has to be a gender desk at the Civil Service Commission, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: … Police and Prisons Service Commission, Teaching Service Commission and all parastatals. In fact, GIDD must be represented so that there is somebody to advocate for women. Just having GIDD will not change anything because all these ministries, departments and institutions such as the BOZ and Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), will have to advocate for women because some of our colleagues heading those institutions are not very receptive.

Sir, I know that we have debated this matter in this House before. Once, I seconded a Private Members’ Motion which was moved by Hon. Patricia Nawa. In that Motion, we were arguing for moving towards giving a small quota to women to accelerate the advancement of women. It was strongly opposed in this House. Even though some people will say that they supported this, I am not very sure if they supported it in totality.

Sir, for example, we should see what will be happening next year. We have parliamentary elections coming up. As far as I know, political parties are saying they support women to take up more positions, but I am not seeing any measures being taken in these political parties to ensure that they get a third of women to be adopted. Not even in the Ruling Party. The other parties that have less responsibilities …

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: … and do not even talk about these issues. The point I am trying to make is that we have to try and move forward. We have to be activists and be aggressive.

Let us come to the issue of hammer mills. The hammer mills are welcome but, first of all, they have created a lot of problems. Firstly, in some constituencies, some hon. Members of Parliament do not even know where the hammer mills are or they have not been involved in the programme.

Mr Chazangwe: The District Commissioners (DC) know!

Dr Machungwa: The DC.

I have difficulties because my area has sixteen islands and four chiefs. Now, where am I supposed to take that hammer mill? Which chief gets it? Therein lies the difficulty. If we had to choose or had the women been consulted, we would have asked for a rice mill and not a hammer mill because no maize is grown in that area. What is grown there is cassava. There is also rice grown on the banks. Therefore, it is not good to see women trying to pound this rice. I think for a price of a hammer mill, we can add a K2 million for us to get a rice mill. That would be appropriate. Of course, that depends on the decision of the Permanent Secretary in your ministry. I hope the Permanent Secretary is a woman and not a man.

Hon. Opposition Members: It is a man!

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, we need to have consultation so that we agree on one thing. Really, the bottom line is for these two hon. Ministers to begin advocating. It should not just be the issue of them operating within the division, but they should go beyond that. Let us advocate for a women’s desk in each ministry so that we can have a female officer there. This way, we will be able to get reports on what is happening there. In the Civil Service, we rely on the Public Service Commission. There should be an officer specifically responsible for ensuring that women’s issues are attended to. That way, we will make some progress. For us to just have one division with two hardworking hon. Ministers is very difficult because we do not know what is happening in the various departments.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member must remember that his debate has to be recorded. So, he cannot be walking around as he debates. He must use the microphone properly.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I am most obliged. Where I come from, we walk about when talking so that people can hear us.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, please, continue.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, what I am really trying to say is that we need a more aggressive programme. Hon. Members, let us not just pay leap service to this issue. Let us make sure that where ever we go, we advocate for women.

Hon. Masebo, in her debate, was saying that women are not sometimes enemies of themselves. I think they are. For example, in my constituency, I was advocating to have many women to stand and run for positions of councillor. Due to some of the cultural issues, when I tried to have many women candidates, people began to worry. They were wondering why I was interested in women and wanted to know what was happening.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: People wanted to begin creating stories.  So, I said, “Well, if you are not interested, it is alright. I will leave it.” Some of the people who were against that were women.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, it is important that we recognise that the women, themselves, and the institutions must all work together to support this very important programme. We cannot, as Zambia, remain behind when other countries in the region are doing much better.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Changwe): Mr Chairperson, I want to start by commending almost all the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to debate on this Vote. I see that we have overwhelming support …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: … from our colleagues here.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to state that, first and foremost, those who debated should actually have given credit to this Government for being pro-active and realising that issues of gender are actually issues of equity and that these issues are so important that they lead to the co-existence and the very existence of humanity.

Mr Chairperson, indeed, a lot of debaters have raised many issues, but allow me to say that most of the issues that have been raised have actually been catered for in the hon. Minister’s policy statement. I would like to make reference to the Coat of Arms that is just behind you, Sir. It is symbolic of what equality and equity is all about. You can see there is a man and woman holding tools that are actually factors of production. As a country, we have realised that it must take both men and women to develop.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to discuss the issue of sensitisation and raising awareness. If you look at the provisions in the Yellow Book, you will note that under Programme 8, Activity 1 to Activity 16, these issues are all catered for. Sensitisation and awareness have already been budgeted for. Therefore, it is imperative that hon. Members take note of this.

Sir, I also want to state that the issues of how children are brought up, socio-anthropology, are issues that this Government has already realised and, through our inter-ministerial collaboration, we have worked with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to amend the Cultural Act to look at the policy as it relates to culture. A lot of sensitisation has been done. A lot of consultation has been made with our traditional leaders and this is an issue that we have taken very seriously.

Mr Chairperson, I must state that it is actually the responsibility of everybody to socialise within their families in a way that will promote gender balance and equality. It is not just the Government that can do that because the Government will not be in the homes to monitor what is going on there. All we can do is provide sensitisation and awareness.

Mr Chairperson, I want to state that in the 2011 Budget, we have catered for issues of raising awareness among those who want to contend for political positions. We are going to work with other institutions to help raise the effectiveness and self-esteem of women. We must also realise that when it comes to issues of adoption and issues of women contending these positions, the men always begin to talk about merit. They will begin to talk about capacity. Does this woman have capacity? When it is a man, for as long as he is in trousers, no one will talk about merit.

Ms Cifire: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: They will just adopt him. For women, there are so many cobwebs that are put there. GIDD will do everything possible to work with other institutions and NGOs to raise the self-esteem of women. This, we have done even in the past. There was an issue of information and desegregated data.

Allow me to state that GIDD is already in the process of coming up with a database. I must also state that GIDD has contributed to the appointment of some of the women we see in the Public Service. This is a plus on the part of the Government.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to talk about an issue which was raised by Hon. Masebo. Hon. Masebo talked about domestication of international conventions and protocols. If you look at our budget, even last year, that was catered for. For your own information, we are already in the process of reviewing the Gender Policy itself, domesticating Covention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against. Women. (CEDAW), SADC Protocol and its optional protocol, domesticating the AU Solemn Declaration by the Heads of State on Gender. So, these are issues that we are already taking care of. Therefore, the hon. Member need not be worried about this.

Mr Chairperson, there are issues that are being raised with regard to the grants, hammer mills and empowerment programmes for women.

Mr Mubika: Hammer, mwana!

Ms Changwe: Mr Chairperson, our approach as a Government and GIDD, is to ensure that the projects propounded by women are actually viable. It will not work to fund projects and programmes without them being sustainable. We will do everything possible, through training and education. We have been doing this, we have been going to constituencies, provinces and districts so that our women will understand, even the nitty-gritties so that those projects will not die but be sustained. These are issues that we have continued to work on.

Mr Chairperson, I also must state that in the informal sector, as one hon. Member of Parliament said – Sikazwe, can you listen, – there are many women who are in the private sector. I must inform this House, through you, that GIDD has actually come up with a Memorandum of Understanding with some of these groupings which are working in the informal sector.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Hamududu said that we are not liaising with other ministries when doing our work. We are actually liaising with all the ministries. We are in the process of doing many things. We have worked very hard, with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, to come up with a simplified trade regime which deals with issues of cross border trading. You will note that most cross border traders are women. We are also collaborating with other institutions such as the Forum for African Women Educationalists of Zambia (FAWEZA).

Mr Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to state that the Government even gives grants to NGOs. We are working very well with them because we are pushing the same agenda.

Hon. Member shook his head.

Ms Changwe: Even if you shake your head now, what I am telling you is what is obtaining on the ground. We have been working with the Campaign for Female Education (CAMFED) and FAWEZA. Therefore, we have no problems when it comes to working with NGOs. We have collaborated very well with them on various projects and we will continue to do so.

Mr Ntundu interjected.

Ms Changwe: What are you talking about Ntundu?

Mr Chairperson, I want to state that there is a lot of political will on the part of His Excellency the President and this Government. We do not look at the gender of the people in Zambia when making appointments. The Permanent Secretary of the department is a man.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: The bottom line is one’s performance. So far, we have benefited exceedingly from the incumbent male Permanent Secretary. The MMD Government is responsible for all these things. Appointments are political. So, there is political will to that effect. The issue of stereotyping is non existent.

Mr Chairperson, a lot of issues have been raised regarding the marketing of products made by women. In this year’s Budget, the department has provided for a trading centre for women where they will be able to sell their products, exchange ideas, skills and competencies, to enable them compete favourably on the market. We have done a lot in trying to build women’s skills in honey, groundnut, millet and beans processing. The list is endless.

Hon. UPND Member:  Where?

Ms Changwe: In Zambia of course. Unless you are not a Zambian, you cannot know about such things.

Mr Chairperson, these are things that we have been doing and these products have found their way to the Southern African Development Community (SADC) market and the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA).

Mr Chairperson, I wish to express my grief with the manner in which the distribution of hammer mills took place. The hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development gave a statement and categorically stated that hon. Members of Parliament who wished to collect hammer mills would have to collaborate with the DCs. The hon. Members who heeded this advice had no problem when collecting the hammer mills. They have since received the hammer mills. I really do not understand where the problem is with some hon. Members.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of Parliament had an input in the criterion used to choose beneficiary clubs. Where is the problem? We have done everything to inform the hon. Members about the hammer mills. We have since distributed about 138 of them, which is over 80 per cent. Therefore, there should be no issues raised to that effect.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to state that, in this budget, we are actually looking at procuring equipment that is demand-driven. Hon. Machungwa, who has always been an advocate for women’s empowerment, which I commend him for, is very concerned with the type of equipment that will be procured.

Mrs Sinyangwe: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Changwe: In this year’s Budget, I would like to mention that we are actually going to procure equipment …

Mrs Sinyangwe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 I hope that it is procedural.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order. However, this is a very serious one. Is the hon. Minister in order to tell the people of Matero that we did not get the hammer mill because I did not collaborate with the DC or anybody else when, in fact, I went to GIDD to collect the hammer mill, but I do not know where they took it. Is she in order? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mrs Sinyangwe has raised a point of order on the administrative problem she encountered concerning the hammer mill. I would suggest that the hon. Member meets with the hon. Deputy Minister for the department so that the matter can be sorted out outside of this House.

May the hon. Deputy Minister continue.

Ms Changwe: Mr Chairperson, I am most grateful for your guidance. However, what I am stating here is a fact and it is on record that the hon. Minister advised all hon. Members of Parliament to collaborate with DCs and Permanent Secretaries.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: If there are any lapses, however, we will take care of them.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that we have succeeded as a department to even link the women groups to banks where they can get some micro-financing so that they can continue with their businesses.

As I stated earlier, in this year’s Budget we are going to procure equipment based on demand. For instance, if a group is in need of oil expellers, rice polishing machines, honey pressers, maize-shellers or meat processors, we will be able procure all these. Hon. Members should realise that a journey of a thousand kilometres starts with a step. There are always teething problems in any process.

Mr Chairperson, where I come from, we say utatotapo patunini napatwingi twine takatotepo. This proverb encourages you to be grateful with the little that you receive. Let us recognise that there is effort which has gone into something when we can clearly see it.

Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members talked about inter-ministerial co-ordination. I would like to state that a lot of gender auditing has taken place through the department, in the Ministries of Education, Health, Lands, Agriculture and Co-operatives. We intend to continue with this programme. I want to state that in every ministry and institution there is a gender desk, a focal point person and a gender policy, just like there is an HIV/AIDS policy. We have taken care of all these issues.

Even at the provincial level, we have the focal point persons as well as gender sub-committees at the district level. In the quest to decentralise the way we handle issues of gender and equality, we have gone a mile further.

Indeed, the cry that the division must be a fully-fledged ministry is genuine. I cannot say much about this because a lot has already been said about it. However, I would like to state that this Government has been proactive by creating the gender desk and ensuring that most of the issues that we are raising here are catered for.

Mr Kakoma interjected.

Ms Changwe: Kakoma, can you shut up?
 
Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Changwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to end my debate by informing hon. Members of Parliament that when the hon. Minister was giving a ministerial statement, they should have paid attention …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir

Ms Changwe: … because most of the issues that have been raised here were actually covered …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Changwe: … in the policy statement.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I do not have much to say. As we heard for ourselves, this is a topic that has been of interest to almost everyone. It has been debated very passionately by both sides. However, I think that what is coming out very clearly is that there is overwhelming support of the intentions of the department. It is, therefore, my hope that this budget will be passed very quickly, maybe, even within two minutes.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 04/01 – (Gender in Development Division – Human Resource and Administration Department – K4,202,860,695).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 13 – Record Management – Nil, there is no allocation for this year. How are we going to manage our records?

Ms Changwe: Mr Chairperson, the provision was meant to facilitate record management in the past, but this activity has now been covered under Programme 11.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 04/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 04/03 – (Gender in Development Division – Information and Documentation Department – K758, 885,222).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 02 – Hold Gender Focal Point Meetings – Nil, again, there is no money this year. Are we not going to hold meetings with gender focal persons?

Ms Changwe: Mr Chairperson, indeed, the provision in the past was meant to facilitate holding gender focal point meetings. There is no allocation because of the reduced number of meetings to be held which will be supported by our co-operating partners.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 04/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 05 – (The Electoral Commission – Headquarters –K282,763,088,718).

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to present the 2011 Budget for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

The ECZ was established as an autonomous body under Article 70 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia to conduct elections to the Office of the President and National Assembly. The commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries into which Zambia is divided for the purpose of elections to the National Assembly as well as to supervise the registration of voters and review the voters register.

In addition to the constitutional functions, the commission has statutory functions that include the supervision of local government elections and the performance of any other statutory function that the Nation Assembly may call upon it.

The Electoral Commission Act, 1996 provides for the composition and operation of the commission.

The Electoral Act, 2006 empowers the ECZ to enforce the Act, make regulations providing for the registration of voters, conduct presidential and parliamentary elections and election offences and penalties.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for the ECZ is:

“To be an autonomous electoral management body promoting democratic governance through delivery of a credible electoral process.”

The commission’s mission statement justifies the fundamental purpose for its existence and provides for a vision to strive towards. It also gives a framework within which the commission’s policies will be made and programmes and activities carried out to enrich and further strengthen the electoral process. This will, thereby contribute to democratic governance in the country. It further gives the staff of the commission a clear sense of what their organisation is all about, thereby increasing their commitment to achieving the commission’s objectives.

Overview of 2010 Operations

Mr Chairperson, the year 2010 saw the commission commence continuous voter registration. In addition, the commission has conducted six parliamentary by-elections and over twenty local government by-elections.

Budget Estimates for 2011

Mr Chairperson, the budget estimates before the House will enable the ECZ undertake eleven programmes. The key programmes for the commission in 2011 are the preparation of the 2011 register of voters and conducting the 2011 Tripartite Elections.

Mr Chairperson, I now wish to seek the support of this House to approve the Commission’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me yet another opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor on the ECZ.

Sir, first and foremost, I would like to dispute the hon. Minister’s statement that the ECZ is autonomous. The ECZ could only be said to be autonomous if the appointment of the commissioners was not done by the President, but an independent person who is not part of the Executive. As long as the President continues to suggest names for people to sit on the commission, that is going to oversee the elections where he is involved, this ECZ shall never be deemed autonomous.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The people of Zambia have lost faith in the ECZ. The people have lost confidence in the ECZ. Therefore, it is only reasonable that this Government considers dissolving the ECZ and appoints new people.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: In the past, there have been a lot of elections that have been disputed. Surely, if year in and year out, elections are disputed, then there must be a problem. Where is the problem? The problem is the ECZ, …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … hence we seriously need to look at how we should change the ECZ.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: It is extremely difficult to believe that even the Ruling Party can petition an election. It simply shows that they do not have confidence in the ECZ.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: If they had confidence in the ECZ, they would not petition the elections.

Interruptions

Mr Malwa: Violence!

Mr Kambwili: I am surprised they have denied that the ECZ is a go’nga. If it is not, they should not have petitions.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Could the hon. Member, please, explain the word “go’nga.” What does it mean?

Mr Kambwili: Sorry, Sir. It means fake.

Hon. Members: Aah! Is that go’nga?

Mr Mbewe: Is that what it means!

Mr Kambwili: So, we should look at how we should change the composition of the ECZ.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

The word “fake” is unparliamentary.

Mr Kambwili: It is not real. In other words, the ECZ is not real.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, the problem starts with the Ruling Party. They have petitioned one by-election in Mufumbwe which shows that the Ruling Party doubts the credibility of the ECZ which it appointed. This is a serious issue.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, the ECZ has failed to curb electoral fraud. I am just coming from an election in my ward where …

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order, but I have risen on one because Hon. Kambwili is deceiving the hon. Members and the nation at large.

The Deputy Chairperson: Raise your point of order!

Mr Muntanga: Point of order!

Mr Malwa: Is he in order to say that the ECZ is fake or not real, and yet it was because of violence that we petitioned the elections in Mufumbwe and not malpractices? Is he in order to deceive the people? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let me take this opportunity to ask the hon. Member who is on the Floor to just be careful because this is a matter which is currently in court. He must tread very carefully. Otherwise, it would be sub-judice.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your advice.

I was saying that the ECZ has failed to curb electoral fraud. I have just come from a ward election in my constituency, where we squarely ‘hammered’ the MMD, grabbing the ward seat from them, and yet they come here and say they are popular when they are losing elections.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, what transpired in this by-election was that we saw the MMD, in broad daylight, bring trucks and trucks of fertiliser. It was reported to the ECZ that they were dishing out fertiliser to the would-be voters, but no action was taken by the ECZ. As long as the ECZ …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Tom and Jerry!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is debating so badly, …

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: … in order to insinuate that when the people in the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives distribute fertiliser in districts, like they did in his ward, it is a malpractice? Is he in order to suggest that whenever there is a by-election, like the one that was in his ward, we should stop giving inputs to people? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives has raised a point of order which, in my view, should be an issue he must take into account when he debates so that he can answer back to some of the allegations being made by the hon. Member who is now debating. Therefore, I will give the hon. Deputy Minister an opportunity to debate and clarify instead of disturbing the person currently debating.

May he continue, please?

Mr Lubinda: Tom and Jerry aza ibala!

Mr Kambwili: As a Member of Parliament for Roan, I know how fertiliser support from the Government is distributed. I know the people who are involved in the distribution.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I do not think the MMD Chairman and his secretary work for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. Therefore, if it is the MMD that is distributing the fertiliser, then the hon. Minister must resign because he has failed to supervise his District Agricultural Co-ordinating Officers (DACOs) to identify who is supposed to distribute the fertiliser.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: This particular fertiliser I am talking about was distributed by the MMD. Hon. Lundwe is aware of this because she was there.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: She knows that they were distributing fertiliser.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Point of order!

Mr Kambwili: She cannot raise a point of order on a fact.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, electoral fraud is going on under the nose of the ECZ. When this fraud is committed by the MMD, there is absolutely nothing that is done about it.

At one point, I was threatened with a gun. An MMD cadre pointed a gun at me during the elections. I reported this to the police but, to date, that cadre has not been summoned to the police and no action has been taken. What kind of an electoral commission is the ECZ? This incident of the gun was done three metres away from the polling station and the police were watching. When are we ever going to control these matters? If the ECZ wants accolades from us, on this side of this House, it should change its conduct towards elections. Otherwise, the people of Zambia and we, in the Opposition, will never have confidence in the ECZ.

Mr Malwa: But you have just won Chilanga!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, seriously, something needs to be done about voter apathy. It is becoming unacceptable that the Government spends so much money to register over two to three million people as voters, but when there are elections, only less than one million vote. This issue must be looked into very seriously.

In almost all the areas in the just-ended by-elections, there was apathy. In my ward, there are 1,700 registered voters and only a total of 800 people cast their vote. In Chilanga, there are over 26,000 registered voters, but only about plus or minus, 4,000 people voted. This should send a very serious indication to the ECZ that something is wrong. Let us not waste money to register people when they will not vote. The ECZ must come up with a mechanism to make sure that voters turn out to vote during elections.

The way things are going, one would think that it is wise to make voter apathy a criminal offence because we cannot be spending a lot of money registering people, and yet they are not participating in elections.

The other issue is that the elections are not being handled properly. For instance, in the just-ended by-elections, people got confused by the way the election date was being changed. The first date was 28th September then it was moved to 30th September and finally to 25th of October.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Where is the planning? You confused the flow of our campaign and this might have contributed to the apathy that took place because people had already planned their time. I urge the ECZ to be very serious when setting election dates. They should put into consideration all the relevant factors before a date is announced. The ECZ knew that some schools are used as polling stations, but they went ahead to set a date when the pupils were to write mock examinations. What kind of planning is this? Please, wake up and do the right thing.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I now come to the issue of electoral violence during elections.

Interruptions

Hon. Member: That is your character.

Mr Kambwili: Can you sort out – you will never hear me involved in electoral violence. I am not the type. I just talk, but I do not fight.

Mr Shawa: Your kind of talking is violent.

Mr Kambwili: I fight with my mouth. I do not get physical.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I am sure you have heard me as youth chairman of the PF condemning violence at all costs. Those who are saying it is my character are mistaken because it is not their character.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, this issue needs to be taken seriously. Those who are saying it is my character know what they do. Look at a situation where you find an hon. Minister boxing during elections. What kind of Government are you?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The same man who was boxing was appointed campaign manager the following day. You are encouraging violence.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Such people should not go near elections because they are known to have been fighting in the past. I would like to urge the MMD to cage their cadres, especially one provincial chairperson of Lusaka. Tell that man that Zambia is not for violence. If he wants violence, let him go to …

Dr Katema: William Banda!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member is debating and I am trying not to interfere, but bringing outsiders who cannot defend themselves into his debate is not parliamentary.

May he withdraw that and continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw that. Bad functionaries should stop being violent, especially those from the MMD. You have started beating people up even at funerals. You should be ashamed of yourselves. We want to conduct free and fair elections. What happened in Mufumbwe is unprecedented, and yet, to date, none of the MMD cadres have been arrested. The people appearing in court are only those from the UPND, when it was in black and white that the people who caused the violence in Mufumbwe were from the MMD.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili, I said avoid matters that are in courts of law. You are even saying these are matters in court. So why do you not stay clear of them and just debate other issues?

Will the hon. Member continue, please?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry for bringing into my debate court issues, but it is important that people learn that violence is retrogressive.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to know why the Office of the President (OP) is getting involved in elections.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I have clearly told you that your OP officers have asked the returning officers to give them the results before announcing them. Why should this be so? You know, when you are being accused of rigging elections, for once, stay away from the confusion that makes you become questionable. I would also like to know why the ECZ has accepted such an arrangement. The OP have different duties to perform for this country, they do not run elections. There is no reason for sending the election results to the OP.

Mr Chairperson, my interpretation would be that they want to monitor how many ballot papers they would put in the ballot boxes where we do not have monitors, like what happened in Mpulungu.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the ECZ to be serious by avoiding the OP during elections.

Mr Lubinda: Ask VJ, he knows and he can justify.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, the other problem is who should help the illiterate to vote? That is also a cardinal issue.

Mr Shawa: Say ‘who’ and not ‘hoo hoo’?

Mr Kambwili: Do not ‘hoo hoo, hoo hoo’ like a dog.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili.

Mr Kambwili: They are interjecting and you are not doing anything about it.

Dr Musonda: Teimwe mwa kosha ama interjections inga abanenu balechita debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You cannot use the term “dog” in this House because it is unparliamentary. Why do you not just debate without being emotional? Withdraw the word “dog”.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I apologise. The issue…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Withdraw the word “dog”.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the word “dog”.

I was asking a question on who should help the illiterate to vote. We are becoming suspicious. I do not know how we can do it, but allowing the officers from the ECZ, whom we do not trust, to help the illiterate to vote is not right. If the officers are MMD members, they will surely mark on the MMD and nobody would know how an old man who is illiterate has voted. Maybe, they should be allowed to come with their relatives who are able to write.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: We can trust their relatives and not this embattled ECZ.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: This is an issue which we should look at if we are to hold free and fair elections.

Mr Chairperson, the law is very clear on continuous voter registration. It has to be continuous. This issue of stopping the exercise after ninety days and later giving an extension of three days is unlawful. You are abrogating the law by doing this because the law says it is continuous. Why are you scared of registering more people?

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: It is only a Government which is unpopular which is scared of its people. You are busy telling Mr Kalusha Bwalya to go for elections to get a new mandate. You also call for fresh elections. Why are you scared?

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: The hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development was advising the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) to go for fresh elections. You should also go for elections.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this important Vote.

Mr Chairperson, this Vote is important, especially that, next year, we shall be going for general elections. I would like to support the allocations and also ask the hon. Minister responsible for this Vote to explain to me whether this K200 billion allocated for conducting elections next year will be sufficient. I failed to find the figure to compare the cost of the last general elections, but I remember that there was some information from the ECZ to the effect that they need about K5 billion to conduct a by-election. I looked at that as a yardstick.

Mr Chairperson, the role of the ECZ in ensuring that elections are conducted in a free and fair manner cannot be over emphasised. Also, for the sake of stability in the nation, it is important that stakeholders view the ECZ as an autonomous and impartial body.

Mr Chairperson, one of the issues that would make the ECZ look impartial and efficient is the money that this Parliament allocates to it. This morning, I heard, on radio, some NGOs making a statement relating to the just-ended by elections in Chilanga and Mpulungu and one of the issues raised by the NGO consortium was the fact that the management of the elections by the ECZ was poor. I thought that this had to do with logistics. What came to mind had nothing to do with the individuals in the ECZ. Obviously, some of us who have worked with some of the people heading the ECZ, can simply say those are credible hardworking people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the way the people who work for the ECZ execute their functions has to do with how much money we give them. I think the Government should look into this matter by ensuring that enough money is allocated to this institution so that we do not problems of inefficiency which lead to people thinking that the ECZ is not doing its work well or that it is compromised.

Mr Chairperson, there is one serious issue with regard to elections which has nothing to do with the ECZ, but our political parties as they participate in elections. This is the violence that we are witnessing in the by-elections. As a female hon. Member of Parliament, I am very worried because some of us cannot fight. Currently, we are even scared of standing in an election. How many women are you going to attract to politics in the 2011 elections with this name calling, fighting and blood shedding when by-elections are taking place. Clearly, you can tell from the current trend that if nothing drastic is done, the 2011 elections will be violent. If measures to curb the violence are not put in place, many women will shun the elections.

Mr Chairperson, somebody talked about voter apathy. What causes voter apathy? The people are scared to associate with any political party now because be it the Opposition or Ruling Party, they do not know whether they will be beaten or not and it depends on which party is popular in that district or constituency.

Mr Chairperson, also, long distances are another contributing factor the problem of voter apathy. Therefore, we need to increase the number of polling stations so that they are near to the people. Today, you do not expect a person to travel 5 km to go and vote for somebody. Even I would not waste my time to travel a long distance to go and vote for somebody, especially when it is a by-election. Why should I leave my job to go and vote when I am not even sure whether I will have access to water after that? The next thing you see are Members of Parliament buying vehicles for themselves. Unless these issues are resolved so that we make voting easy and user friendly by taking polling stations nearer the people, we are not going to have people voting. So, there is an urgent need to ensure that we increase the number of polling stations so that people can be encouraged to go and vote. There is apathy because the distances are long.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the issue of voter registration. First of all, I just want to say that, indeed, there has been some improvement in the area of voter registration, especially on the issuance of national registration cards (NRC). The relevant ministry in this direction has done quite well. Of course, somebody has indicated that should be a continuous exercise so that we do not have a backlog that will force the Government to introduce mobile registration centres which become very costly.

Mr Chairperson, continuous voter registration and updating of the voters’ roll is important. For example, in the last election, we were told that those who had just registered could not participate in voting and I think that is not good for a democratic country like Zambia. It would have been nice to ensure that those who were registered recently participated in the by-election.

Mr Chairperson, those are the issues that the ECZ and the Government should resolve to encourage people to participate in voting. It is a right of every a citizen. When you talk about citizen’s participation, those are the issues that are cardinal and people begin participating by voting for their leaders. I think Zambia must commend itself for holding regular elections, especially when it comes to local government elections, parliamentary elections and, indeed, presidential elections because, in other countries, they do not hold regular elections. I think the problem is with political parties. We do not hold elections in most of the political parties.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I think that is a weakness that Zambia has and the political parties should improve on that one.

Mr Chairperson, constitutional issues …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Progress reported.

_____

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 29th October, 2010.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

HAMMER MILLS FOR WOMEN’S CLUBS

133. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Gender and Women in Development:

(a) how many hammer mills had been distributed  to women’s clubs countrywide as of 30th September, 2010;

(b) what the criteria used in distributing the hammer mills were; and

(c) when the operations of the Ministry would be decentralised to all districts in the country.

The Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Sayifwanda): Mr Speaker, my office has procured a total of 150 hammer mills for distribution to all districts in the nine provinces of Zambia. As of 26th October, 2010, a total of 138 hammer mills were distributed to various provinces for distribution. For specific details, hon. Members of Parliament are free to consult with the office of the permanent secretary at GIDD.

Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that my office requested the provincial and district administrations to work with hon. Members of Parliament in identifying beneficiaries of the hammer mills. Allow me to assure this House that my office will also conduct a verification exercise to ensure that the intended beneficiaries actually received the donation and are utilising the same equipment. For purposes of transparency, I wish to take this opportunity to encourage all hon. Members of Parliament to collaborate with the offices of the provincial permanent secretaries and district commissioners.

Mr Speaker, the provincial permanent secretaries were tasked to collect these hammer mills from GIDD offices in Lusaka. They, in turn, gave them to DAs to distribute at the district level. In some cases, my office informed hon. Members of Parliament who could, to assist in the distribution and this worked very well.

I wish to take this opportunity to inform hon. Members of Parliament that my office, through the Secretary to Cabinet, has appointed gender focal point persons at the provincial administration and in the offices of DAs. At the provincial level the gender focal point person is in the Provincial Planning Unit while at the district level it is the district administrative officer. These officers act as links with the office of the hon. Minister for Gender and Women in Development at the provincial and district levels.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.