DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 25th November, 2010

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE STATUS OF MINING TAXATION

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to brief the House and the nation at large on the status of mining taxation.

Sir, as this august House may be aware, the Government privatised the mines in 2000. Prior to this, the mines were Government owned and run by the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). During the reign of the ZCCM, mismanagement set in, including the diversion of funds from core mining activities to non-core activities of the company like hotels, lifts, airlines and so on and so forth. This resulted in lack of re-investment in mining, resulting in continued fall in mineral production.

Copper production declined from a peak of 750,000 metric tonnes in 1973 to about 200,000 metric tonnes per annum in 2000. With law production levels, low prices and a huge labour force and therefore, large costs, the ZCCM faced big financial losses.

In order to forestall social chaos on the Copperbelt due to the closure of the mines, the Government was compelled to finance the operations of the ZCCM at a great expense.

 At the worst point, this support from the Treasury to the ZCCM amounted to US$1 million per day, thereby diverting resources from other areas of need. Under these circumstances, it became apparent that Zambia was reaching …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

I have only allowed the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to speak. The rest must listen.

May you continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Under these circumstances, it became apparent that Zambia was reaching the end of its mining life.

Sir, it became imperative to privatise the mines and save taxpayers’ money which the Government was giving to the ZCCM. More importantly, the Government had to save the many jobs and lives of people, particularly on the Copperbelt whose livelihood was dependent on mining. If you take away mining, everything grinds to a halt on the Copperbelt and, indeed, the rest of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, privatising the mines at the beginning of this decade was full of challenges. Firstly, copper prices were quite low. Secondly, the track record of Zambia in allowing private sector investors in a capital-intensive industry like mining was unknown. Thirdly, everyone knew that the mining sector in Zambia was in deep trouble. Consequently, and to partly over come these challenge, the Government had to provide fiscal incentives to the mining companies to facilitate the substantial recapitalisation and investment that the sector required. In addition, it had to enter into development agreements with private owners of the mines to:

(a) protect the jobs of Zambians working in the mines;

(b) secure maximum benefit and adequately contribute to the advancement of the social and economic welfare of the people of Zambia; and

(c) secure an appropriate return on investment for the new mine owners.

On the fiscal front, the measures taken to encourage private investment in the mines included the reduction of the mineral royalty rate from 2 per cent to 0.6 per cent and the reduction of the company income tax from 35 per cent to 25 per cent. The Government had to provide these incentives, as not doing so meant closing the mines.

However, by 2006, copper prices began to improve and it became apparent that the Zambian mining tax regime was not responsive and could not provide adequate revenues to the Government. There was also a feeling that development agreements were unfair, unjust and that the people were not benefiting from their mineral resources. This led to the formulation of the new fiscal and regulatory regime in 2008 which was intended to ensure that the tax system not only remained stable and robust, but also worked efficiently and effectively for both high and low metal prices as well as high and low cost operating mines. Overall, the Government’s objective was to have an average effective tax rate for the mining sector of 47 per cent.

Mr Speaker, the House may recall that in 2008, this Government nullified all the development agreements that the Government had signed with the mining companies by repealing the Mines and Minerals Act, Chapter 213 of the Laws of Zambia. This was replaced by the Mines and Minerals Development Act Number 7 of 2008. In this new Act, Section 160 provides that development agreements that existed prior to the commencement of this Act will cease to be binding on the Republic from the date the Act came into force. As a result, whatever obligations existed between the parties were extinguished.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the fiscal regime, the Government introduced a new fiscal regime with the following features:

(i) corporate tax was increased from 25 per cent to 30 per cent;

(ii) mineral royalty rate was increased from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent;

(iii) withholding tax on interests, royalties, management fees and payments to affiliates of subcontractors in the mining sector were  re-introduced at the rate of 15 per cent while withholding tax on dividends was at zero per cent;

(iv) a variable profit tax of up to 15 per cent on taxable income, which is above 8 per cent of the gross income, was introduced, but only applicable if prices were below the windfall tax to recapitalise;

(v) a windfall tax was introduced which was being triggered at different price levels for different base metals.

(vi) hedging income was treated as a non-mining activity and, therefore, taxed at a different rate of 35 per cent;

(vii) capital allowance, that is a depreciation of capital equipment, was reduced from 100 per cent to 25 per cent per year; and

(viii) a reference price, which is the deemed arms length price, was introduced for purposes of assessing mineral royalties. This was a price tenable at the London Metal Exchange, a Metal Bulletin or any other commodity exchange market recognised by the Commissioner General of the Zambia Revenue Authority.

Mr Speaker, during the implementation of this tax regime in 2008, windfall tax became problematic due to the weaknesses in its design. This resulted in a higher than intended effective tax rate that ranged between 64 and 96 per cent for high cost mines and 57 and 64 per cent for low cost mines. This, clearly, was above the intended rate of up to 47 per cent. Further, the marginal tax rates, particularly for the high cost mines, were very high, in some cases even higher than 100 per cent. This simply meant that, for every one dollar increase in the price above the highest trigger level of copper price, a mining company had to pay taxes of more than one dollar.

Additionally, the design of the windfall tax in the Zambian case was defective and not consistent with international practice, as it was based on taxing revenue. It, therefore, did not take into account the cost of production. The normal practice is to tax windfall profits, as is, indeed, the case in Zambia today for mining, banking and telecommunications.

Sir, as a result of these weaknesses in the 2008 tax regime, this House, in 2009, took a bold step to remove the windfall tax, as it was onerous on mining companies. Instead, the variable profit tax was retained and is being applied to capture extra profits, as I just explained a few moments ago.

Mr Speaker, I would like to assure this august House that the current regime is responsive enough to ensure increased revenue collections in times of higher copper prices. The regime also compares well with other resource-endowed economies in the region where effective tax rates range from the highest 52.1 per cent and the lowest 42.6 per cent.

Sir, I would like to mention that the nullification of the development agreements and subsequent change of the mining tax regime triggered challenges for mining companies. Some companies indicated their intention to go for arbitration. However, knowing the importance of stability in this sector, the Government decided to engage the mining companies in discussions to find a lasting solution to the impasse that had risen from the nullification of the development agreements.

Mr Speaker, I wish to report to this House that the Government has now finalised the discussions with all the mining companies and that these discussions, which have been very positive, were on two fronts.

Dr Musokotwane drank water.

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Firstly, the discussions focused on the need for the mining companies to pay their tax arrears arising from the changes that were introduced in 2008. I am glad to inform this House that all the mining companies have agreed to pay the tax arrears.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: It has also been agreed that the windfall tax arrears be reassessed at 25 per cent to ensure that the assessed total liability does not exceed the intended 47 per cent effective tax rate.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: In other words, windfall taxes that were assessed at 50 and 75 per cent will be disregarded.

With this agreement on arrears, Mr Speaker, total tax liabilities of mining companies amount to K1,426.16 billion. Of these arrears, the Government expects that K458.5 will be paid by the end of 2010 …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … while the balance of K967.6 billion will be settled in 2011. The Government will ensure that all arrears are paid by 30th June, 2011.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the second part of discussions focused on the need for mining companies to accede to the current mining tax regime of 3 per cent mineral royalty, 30 per cent corporate tax and 15 per cent variable profit tax, among others. Once again, I wish to report that all the mining companies have agreed to start paying taxes based on the current tax regime.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: This, Sir, entails that mining tax collection will increase tremendously. In 2011, for example, mineral royalties will increase by about 60 per cent, to K651.6 billion from the K404.70 billion initial estimates indicated in the 2011 Budget. Company Income Tax, including variable profit tax, will improve by about 40 per cent from the K899 billion indicated in the 2011 Budget to K1,258.46 billion.

With these changes, the Government estimates that it will realise just over K1,019 billion from the mining sector in 2011 beyond what was earlier estimated in the 2011 Budget.

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Of this amount, K606 billion will be extra revenues from the mining sector based on the current tax regime which entails paying mineral royalty tax at 3 per cent instead of 0.6 per cent; company tax at 30 per cent instead of 25 per cent and variable income tax being payable. The balance of K413 billion is from tax arrears above what we had estimated earlier to be paid by the mining companies in 2011. These extra revenues will, as usual, be presented to this House as supplementary budget and will be targeted towards infrastructure development.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I further wish to inform the House that in view of the higher copper prices, most of the mining companies are expected to extinguish their carry-forward losses earlier than projected, some of them as early as 2012. Once the losses are extinguished, the companies will then be in a tax-paying position and the Treasury projects the taxes from mining companies to further improve. Our calculations show that when most of the mining companies start making taxable profits, tax revenue collections from the mining companies under the current tax regime will become the major contributor to tax revenues at about 40 per cent of all tax revenue or 7 per cent of GDP.

Sir, due to the huge investment cost in the mining sector, investors often want to see a credible signal from the Government that the prevailing terms on which they base their financial models to borrow funds are not changed anyhow. One area where the Government often changes terms is in taxation. In this regard, the mining companies have been asking the Government for stability in the tax regime.

Mr Speaker, a good tax system is one which is predictable and provides stability to investors. It has, therefore, been agreed that a fiscal stability for a period of ten years be given to companies that will accede to the new tax regime. This stability will apply to corporate income tax and capital allowance as well as mineral royalty and variable profit taxes.

In conclusion, the changes that were made in 2008, as amended in 2009 to make the country benefit more in taxes from mining, will now be implemented. All mining companies will now pay mineral royalty tax at 3 per cent rather than 0.6 per cent and income tax at 30 per cent and not 25 per cent and, of course, variable income tax will also be in force. In addition, arrears on taxes will be paid following the settlement of the disputes that arose from the abrogation of the development agreements.

Mr Speaker, with the full implementation of the new tax regime, Zambia’s effective tax rate will move from 31.2 per cent, prior to 2008, to 47 per cent and will be within the average of effective tax rates of other resource endowed countries. I wish to highlight the effective tax rates of some countries which can be compared to Zambia.

Country   Percentage 
                                                 
Angola   52.7 
Mozambique   52.1 
 Botswana   50.6 
 Namibia   47.9 
  Tanzania   45    
 South Africa   42.9 
 Chile   42.6

Mr Speaker, let me now take this opportunity to thank the mining companies individually and severally for their willingness to discuss this matter in a cordial atmosphere. Zambia stands ready to welcome and retain all foreign and local investors who are involved in mining and non-mining activities. It is only through increased investments that Zambia will be able to create more jobs which will help to absorb youths who are unemployed, expand business opportunities for and create a stronger foundation for increased tax revenue in our country. This is the only route known the world over for effectively fighting poverty.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the people of Zambia for their support. It is, of course, their Government that bears the brunt of all the pressure for the betterment of their lives. It is, therefore, their Government, above any other country, that is most concerned about the need to generate more taxes to improve the people’s lives. In doing so, we must act in a responsible manner that does not seek to maximise revenue in the short-term like what some populists often do.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Our revenue sources must be maximised today for us and our children. Let us maximise our revenue sources tomorrow for our children and our grand children and beyond that for our grand children’s children. This can only be done by carefully balancing the interests of the Zambian people with that of the people who invest in our country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Boma yasebenza!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions …

Hon. PF Members rose

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members are now free to rise on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I recognise the hon. Member for Isoka – Oh! Mpongwe, pardon me!

Laughter

Hon. Members: Chongwe!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Aah, Mr Speaker …

Laughter

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Mr Speaker,

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

What is this? We have hardly begun business and you want to raise a point of order? What has she done? She has hardly opened her mouth and you want to raise a point of order.

Will the hon. Member for Chongwe continue, please.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to commend the Government for the bold decision it has made regarding mining tax regime.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: What bold decision is this?

Mrs Masebo: The decision to review the mining tax regime will result in us earning an extra K600 billion. My question to the hon. Minister relates to the development agreements vis-à-vis the issue of paying rates to local authorities. I want to find out whether the mines will also be asked to pay in full what is due to the local authorities in terms of rates.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the councils have always been fully in control of the rates. However, I wish to state that some of the councils have acted in the manner I was advising against of wanting to maximise revenue today and forgetting about tomorrow. We have seen cases where, in one year, particular councils have changed their rates two or three times. The danger about this is that you may maximise your revenue earnings today, but you are certainly discouraging further investment in the council. Remember also that your population is growing. Thus unless you create conditions which make it attractive for investors to keep coming to invest in your areas, you will have an army of youths who will remain unemployed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the statement by the hon. Minister was clear, but my question is …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order!

She does not want this House to proceed. What is your point of order?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, first of all, I wish to apologise to my colleague for disturbing him. I rise on a point of order which borders on democracy. When Zambia introduced the multipartism dispensation, it was an era of democracy in which many parties were supposed to co-exist regardless of their size and leaders. It is with this reason that I rise on a very serious point of order directed at His Honour the Vice-President of this country.

Mr Speaker, today, the president of the Patriotic Front (PF) was summoned by the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and, upon his arrival, teargas was thrown right at his feet. Mr Sata is a president of a party in a democratic country and he has a lot of followers. When he is summoned by DEC, his supporters are supposed to give him support. I would like to find out whether we are in a one-party system or we are in a democracy where the PF and any other parties should also co-exist. I need your serious ruling.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

With regard to the point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu, I would like to state that there are a number of incidents that happen every minute in this Republic. The majority of them take place outside this House. We are aware of the introduction of the multi-party system. In this House, there are founding Members of that philosophy. They are here.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

However, if what you are saying did take place, you are free, under the separation of powers, to go to one of the arms of the State, which is the Judiciary, for redress. Since the action you are referring to was taken by the Executive, it is better for you to go to court where your case can be dealt with more successfully than encouraging us to violate the sub-judice convention. This is not a court. This is a law-making body.

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you may now ask your question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Kuya bebele!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, the statement by the hon. Minister was clear and we look forward to more statements for the sake of transparency in this area. Which year do we envisage to reach this 40 per cent threshold for mining tax contribution to the Treasury because we need to be very sure about the way we do things? I am not comfortable with the hon. Minister just stating that it will all happen in future without being specific.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I indicated that, by 2012 some of the big mining companies should be able to reach the taxpaying position. Thus, at this point, their contribution will reach the 40 per cent level that I was talking about. On the other hand, all this is, of course, dependent on the prevailing circumstances since this statement was based on the assumed price for copper which may remain where it is such that it may not increase or decline. In an effort to be as specific as possible, I have mentioned 2012 based upon a model of assumed copper prices.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, in response to Hon. Masebo’s question pertaining to the non-payment of rates by the mining companies, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning attributed it to the irresponsibility on the part of councils when determining rates. The question that begs an answer from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is whether he is aware that, in fact, it is the Minister of Local Government and Housing who determines the rates and not the councils. Councils merely make recommendations and so if there is an irresponsibility, then it is on the part of the Government.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I may have made a mistake when I was talking and if, indeed, that is the case, then I do apologise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Minister for his statement. I would like to know what the envisaged gross national revenue collection is with this migration which he deems to be a fiscal and regulatory regime shift. He described it as stable and robust enough for this country, taking into consideration the degradation and damage to the environment that is caused by mining activities. The mining activities also damage the road infrastructure when products from the mining activities are transported across the country to ports of exports. What is the expected gross national income in net terms after considering that which I am concerned about?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, first of all, the hon. Member is using terminology that is unknown.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: I am hearing those terminologies for the first time. However, if I understand what he is talking about in terms of the revenue collections for 2011 because, obviously, we cannot focus very much on the future, I would like to state that the revenue that we expect to collect for 2010 is what is indicated in the Yellow Book for 2011 plus a trillion Kwacha. So, what is indicated in the Yellow Book plus an extra of K1 trillion is now going to be the new revenue.

Mr Speaker, when coming up with the various tax regimes, we do not take into account the damage caused to the roads by the various economic activities. In fact, the hon. Member, as he drives on the roads, obviously, also contributes to the damage but, when we tax him, we do not base it on an assessment of how much damage his car or tractor has caused. The damage caused by your vehicle to our roads is a separate issue from tax administration issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, in 2008, when windfall tax was introduced, we were told that the effective tax rate was going to be 47 per cent. That assessment was done at a great cost to the nation which assembled a very able team of experts to determine this intended effective tax rate. In his speech, the hon. Minister said that the actual tax rate that was achieved was between 69 per cent and 94 per cent. I wish to learn from the hon. Minister whether we showed our incompetence as a nation and Government by bringing to Parliament a presentation that stated that the effective rate would be 47 per cent when windfall tax would be introduced at a great cost to the nation, and yet when it was effected, the hon. Minister says the effective tax rate was 69 to 94 per cent. Can the hon. Minister explain why this is so.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the explanation was clearly outlined in the speech. An error was made in the designing of the tax regime. When errors are made, the right thing to do is correct them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning clarify what he means by giving the mining companies a tax stability period of ten years. What is going to happen if the situation changes and need arose to adjust the variable tax from 15 per cent to 20 per cent based upon an increase in the profits being made? Will the mining companies not be subjected to any increase in the tax rates for a period of ten years?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the tax stability period means that the tax categories defined cannot be changed within the period stipulated. I also want to point out that it is absolutely essential for us to be credible and predictable in the way we administer tax in as far as investment is concerned.

Mr Speaker, to elaborate this, I would like to give an example of Lumwana Mine whose deposits were known even in the ZCCM days, but were deemed uneconomical at the time. When the new investors came, they required a huge amount of money to invest in that mine. I think it was between US$500 million to US$1 billion. Now, in raising the funds for this venture, the investors had to convince bankers with the financial model that they had devised to be able to embark on that project as well as pay back the loans.

Therefore, if we create a situation where we are always changing taxes every now and then, what happens tomorrow or next month when a similar resource is discovered? Investors, who could include hon. Members of this House, would want to borrow huge amounts of money from banks to develop a given mine, but the bankers would not lend them the money because of the country’s tendency to change things abruptly. The end result is that there would be a failure to make investments and that is how countries end up lagging behind instead of making progress.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Sir, will the hon. Minister clarify the matrix of windfall tax, which has been reduced by half, for the payment of arrears. Will it remain the same in the coming years in which copper and cobalt prices are predicted to be buoyant?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I did not quite understand the question, but the point, as I explained in the statement, is that the original intention was to have an effective tax rate of 47 per cent. Now, with the windfall tax that is being accessed, our target is to achieve an effective tax rate of 25 per cent. The application of the 50 and 75 per cent tax in revenue was driving the effective tax rate to anywhere between 70 and 90 per cent. Clearly, that rate of taxation is unreasonable anywhere in the world.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister said that one of the reasons, if not the basic reason, windfall tax was removed was that it was onerous on mining companies. I wish to find out from the hon. Minister why the Government has deliberately breached the provision in every law that relates to transition, among other things, that in case of a repeal or change, the previous law is not necessarily washed away, but is binding for the period for which it was enforced. This is with respect to windfall taxes which were calculated at 50 and 70 per cent that have since been written off. Bearing in mind, also, what Hon. Kakoma said …

Mr Speaker: Order!

You have asked your question.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, we have made consultations and are satisfied that the proposed changes are fully provided for in the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, at the time of introducing windfall tax in 2008, most hon. Ministers held the same positions they hold today and the current hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning happened to have been a senior economic advisor to the President. In view of the fact that he has referred to that windfall tax as irregular, can he, please, indicate who it is who has now just come about to advise Cabinet that even the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning himself, at the time, was wrong to have advised the President and Parliament to have introduced this tax.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, in the first instance, as I said, errors are made by human beings and societies. When this happens, it is important …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, errors are also made by political parties.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: We remember very clearly that when windfall tax was introduced, the president of the Patriotic Front (PF) embraced these changes.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: However, he has now changed his stance on this matter. To quote a statement from a letter that I laid on the Table dated 12th August, 2010, which is just a few months ago, Mr Sata wrote as follows:

Mr Lubinda: He is not the one who changed. It is you.

Dr Musokotwane: 

“Maybe no one in your Government cares about the jobs that have been sacrificed by the delinquent and illegal tax regime introduced by your Government.”

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, another statement reads:

“I realised that the mines are mostly in areas where my party dominates, but it will appear that no one in your Government is aware of the damage the on-going dispute in mining is doing to the industry and to jobs on the mines.”

Now, this is a very clear indication of the fact that even presidents of political parties change their minds.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: So, I do not see anything wrong with us changing our minds.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the hon. Minister knows that Zambians and the Opposition are against variable tax, can he, therefore, confirm that giving mining investors ten years tax concession is just a confirmation that the Ruling Party wants to put the incoming Government in an awkward situation to continue with a tax regime that it does not want?

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

The phrase ‘incoming Government’ is irrelevant.  All hon. Members in here are part of the Government. If somebody is coming, where are you going?

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am just wondering which Zambians he is referring to. Let me quote from a certain very prominent Zambian on what he had to say about this matter.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane:

“As I remarked to your predecessor …” – that is the predecessor of the President, “The calculation that mining companies were paying 47 per cent was, in fact, wrong. Depending on the cost of production, most companies were paying in excess of 50 per cent. My party looks with envy at the wealth of Chile, a country which used to produce less copper than our wonderful country, but now produces ten times more than Zambia. It is very easy to see, for anyone who is prepared to look, that the entire Chilean economy has benefited enormously from a healthy mining industry. Our Government will move towards emulating Chile where the tax rate on mines is less than 35 per cent.”

Now, here is a prominent Zambian, the President of the PF.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: So, I do not know which Zambians he is referring to.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister did not answer the question put forward by the hon. Member for Chongwe. Perhaps, if I ask it again, we will get the answer. What is the legal position regarding the payment of rates to local government authorities given that several mines have, in the past, refused to pay rates because of development agreements? Where are we now?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the legal position is that by-laws are made by councillors. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing only approves the recommendations of the full council.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, investors in Chile and the Democratic Republic of Congo pay windfall tax and they have not been scared away. I would like to know why the Government of the Republic of Zambia is scared of re-introducing windfall tax.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the statement by the hon. Member of Parliament is totally false. I would like to invite him to our office so that we give him the correct documents that show the correct picture.

Mr Speaker, I think it is dishonourable for hon. Members of Parliament to deliberately mislead the public.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what major changes the Government has made at the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to ensure that an accurate follow-up of daily mining production figures are met for us to ensure that we have accurate collection of revenue rather than depending on projections based on the whims of the mining companies every time.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the ZRA has a specialised unit dealing with mining. It is manned by very competent people. On top of that, they have been undergoing training to make them even sharper. These people are working very closely with the Norwegian Tax Authorities to audit the mines and make sure that correct information is provided for assessing the correct taxes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister not consider the 2008 tax regime, especially with regard to windfall tax, which took into account the production cost at US$150 and, indeed, the high cost produced at US$2.0 per pound and allowed a profit margin of up to US$2.50 per pound as a trigger point, as an effective tax on profit? If he does, why does he continue to state that windfall tax was a tax on revenues and not profit?

Mrs Banda: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, windfall tax was, indeed, a tax on revenues. If the hon. Member so wishes, we can demonstrate that in a technical meeting.

Mr Speaker, as I have indicated before, a very simple way of assessing whether this was a correct thing or not, beyond the technicalities, is to ask whether anyone else in this world applied this kind of taxation? The clear answer is that there was not a single mining country in Africa, Asia and anywhere that applied that type of tax …

Hon. Government Members: Including Chile.

Dr Musokotwane: … including Chile. Therefore, certainly, if we insist on something that no one else has done, you must either be very clever or know that you are extremely wrong.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kawandami (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

She has the right to ask questions.

Ms Kawandami: Yes, what is wrong with that?

Mrs Phiri: The outgoing government are tired.

Ms Kawandami: … indicate the difference between the development agreements that were abolished and the ten-year price stabilisation period that has just been given.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the difference is that the development agreements had many more clauses regarding the way mining was going to be conducted in this country of which the stability period had only one. Therefore, the difference is that, this time, the stability period is one while the development agreements had more clauses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: It is evident that every hon. Member who had wished to ask, except one − the hon. Member for Luapula − may ask his question before I conclude what I was about to say.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, recently, there was a claim in some of the local tabloids that one of the mining establishments in this country was demanding re-imbursement of taxes paid and this was Kansanshi Mine. In view of what the hon. Minister has revealed on the Floor of this House, would he comment on that?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we have not seen a claim on that demand coming from that company as reported in that tabloid. In addition to that, maybe, I can take advantage of this opportunity to say that some of the reports that we see in the press on this item are always fabrications. For example, you have seen in the press that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank asked this country to introduce windfall taxes.

Mr Speaker, we have asked these institutions to confirm these allegations and they have all said nothing of that sort. A few days ago, there was even a statement attributed to one of the Diplomats here asking this Government to introduce windfall tax and I asked this Diplomat if he had said this and he said:

“In fact, I refused to answer that question. If anything, I was commending the Government for having taken the measure that it took to sustain the industry.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, it is important that, when we see what is printed, we know that it could either be true or false. Let us not just believe anything that is written in black and white because some of it could be totally false.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I was saying that, in view of the importance of the subject, I have made it possible for any hon. Member here who had wished to ask a question to do so. Now I can see the House is not exhausted, but satisfied that they have asked questions. You may disagree with what has been said, but you have asked questions. However, as you can tell, a lot of time has been freely lost and we have to make time elsewhere. Therefore, I require your co-operation.

_____________{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

COPPERBELT MINISTRY OF EDUCATION ACCOUNTS ASSISTANTS

179. Mr Chongo (Mwense) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many accounts assistants worked in the ministry in the Copperbelt Province from 2008 to 2009;

(b) whether the accounts assistants were interviewed by the Public Service Commission; and

(c) what the maximum period for a newly-recruited Public Service worker within which he or she should be included on the payroll was.

 The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, a total of 140 accounts assistants worked in the Ministry of Education on the Copperbelt Province in 2008 while the number rose to 166 in 2009.

Mr Speaker, some of the candidates were not interviewed by the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), but authority was granted to recruit accounts assistants and the Provincial Administration was mandated to conduct interviews for 2008 and 2009 by the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Education. However, other accounting staff were deployed by the PSMD.

There is no minimum period for newly-recruited public officers to be placed on the payroll. The only requirement is that the affected officer should submit an approved Accounts Form 81, which is the Arrival Advice, and have the necessary qualifications.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister explain why those who were employed and interviewed in 2008 have not been put on the payroll, and yet those who were employed in 2009 have been put on the payroll?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware that there was such a programme. However, I would like to inform this august House that the officers have received their letters of appointment and will be put on the payroll in December, 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

ZAMBIA AIRWAYS CORPORATION TERMINAL BENEFITS

180. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much money the Government owed former employees of the Zambia Airways Corporation in the form of terminal benefits;

(b) what had caused the delay in resolving the problem of payment of the terminal benefits at (a); and

(c) what measures the Government had taken to ensure that the above problem was resolved expeditiously.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Phiri): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government does not owe the former employees of Zambia Airways Corporation any money in the form of benefits. When Zambia Airways Corporation went into liquidation in December, 1994, the Companies Act provided a preferential claim of K200.00 to each employee as an entitlement. However, the Government considered the amount inadequate and entered into an agreement with the advocates of the former employees to pay the former employees a package outside the liquidation. The agreement was signed on 16th June, 1995. Under this agreement, the terminal benefits were calculated similar to the Zambia Industrial and Mining Corporation (ZIMCO) conditions of service. The Government paid all the affected employees, through ZIMCO, a sum of K4.6 billion in June, 1995. In light of this, the Government does not owe the former employees any terminal benefits. However, it is worth noting that in 2006, the former employees commenced legal action against the Government, claiming that they were underpaid. The matter is still in the courts of law.

As outlined above, the issue of additional terminal benefits is currently in the courts of law and has not yet been concluded.

Since the matter is still in court, the expeditious conclusion of the matter is outside the control of the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

EXPATRIATE RECRUITMENT

181. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) what the procedure for recruiting expatriate employees was; and

(b) what measures the Government had taken to limit the number of expatriate employees.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Kachimba): Mr Speaker, any person or employer who wishes to recruit expatriate employees is required, under the Immigration and Deportation Act, to apply to the Chief Immigration Officer in the Ministry of Home Affairs for issuance of work permits. The Chief Immigration Officer presides over a committee of relevant Government institutions known as the Employment Permits Committee, which considers and approves or rejects applications for work permits. My ministry is represented on this committee to take care of Zambianisation issues.

The Zambianisation Committee under my ministry is working closely with the office of the Chief Immigration Officer and other relevant ministries to scrutinise all applications for work permits that are referred to it to determine which positions should be filled by expatriate employees and which ones should be Zambianised. Applications relating to jobs whose skills are available among Zambians on the local labour market are thus rejected in order to give a chance to Zambians. This way, the number of expatriates entering the Zambian labour market is minimised.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, did the employees at the Non-Ferrous Metals Corporation (NFC) at Chambishi and Luanshya, where we have expatriate bricklayers and plumbers, go through the mentioned committee?

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Mr Speaker, we do not have any information that shows that there are expatriate plumbers and bricklayers who have been employed. I am aware that when the Chambishi Copper Smelter was at the construction stage, arrangements were made by those who were responsible for the construction process to bring workers from outside only for the purpose of speeding up the construction works. They were given such permits up to the time the construction was completed. We are also aware that the contracts came to an end and they were taken back to China where they came from.

I thank you, Sir.

______________

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE ANTI-GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE BILL, 2010

The Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Sayifwanda): Mr Speaker, I am a bearer of a message from His Excellency the President recommending favourable consideration of the Motion which I now lay on the Table.

Mr Speaker: This is a money Bill. Please, read your Constitution.

Ms Sayifwanda laid the document on the Table.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Bamayo.

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled Anti-Gender-Based Violence Bill, 2010. The object of the Bill is to provide for the protection of victims of gender-based violence, constitute the Anti-Gender-Based Violence Committee, establish the Anti-Gender-based Violence Fund …

Hon. Government Member: Mwamba!

Ms Sayifwanda: … and provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE PENAL CODE (Amendment) BILL, 2010

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Penal Code (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of this Bill is to amend the Penal Code so as to revise the provisions on rape, incest and child pornography and provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE JUVENILES (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Juveniles (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The object of this Bill is to amend the Act so as to:

(a) revise the provisions relating to the hearing of evidence of a child of tender years; and

(b) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE EDUCATION BILL, 2010

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, I beg to present the Education Bill, 2010. The object of this Bill is to:

 (a) regulate the provision of accessible equitable and qualitative education;

 (b) provide for the establishment, regulation, organisation, governance, management and funding of educational institutions;

 (c) provide for the establishment of education boards and for their functions;

(d) domesticate the convention on the rights of the child in relation to education;

 (e) repeal and replace the Education Act of 1966 and the African Education     Act of 1951; and

 (f) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Education, Science and Technology. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

REPORT STAGE

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2010

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Friday, 26th November, 2010.

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2010

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2010

___________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 90 - 98 – (Office of the President – Provinces: Lusaka – K34,260,873,301, Copperbelt – K43,809,691,038, Central – K35,229,577,750, Northern – K45,657,610,904, Western – K35,755,938,936, Eastern – K39,691,869,036, Luapula – K35,654,837,542, North-Western  – K35,733,755,711 and Southern – K43,645,920,162).

 (Consideration resumed)

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to continue my debate.

When business was suspended yesterday, I was saying that the total budget for the Southern Province had increased by 10 per cent, but would only cater for salary increments. My concern is that the allocation for borehole and dam construction and rehabilitation has been reduced from K400 million, in 2010, to K190 million in the 2011 Budget. This means that dam and borehole construction in the province will stop. This will impact the development of the province negatively.

Mr Chairperson, I am also worried that the allocation for social welfare has reduced from K1.8 billion to K1.3 billion in the 2011 Budget. I thought that this is the time the allocation should have been increased because a lot of orphans in schools need help from social welfare. It bothers me to see the budget allocation for social welfare in 2011 reduced. This is a concern that the province will have to take into account.

I have noticed that the Provincial Minister for Southern Province is not in the House. This is sad because he is new in the province, but I believe that wherever he is, he may be listening to our contributions. There is also a new Permanent Secretary in the province. These people need to understand that we need to work together to develop the province. The team that worked with old Hon. Munkombwe knew how to ensure that we were friends all the time. We worked very well together. Although the province is predominantly opposition, the former hon. Minister for Southern Province did not come into confrontation with anybody. Whenever he came into my constituency, he ensured that he talked to me. As a result, we worked together very well.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, the new hon. Minister should take a leaf from this. The stories that we are hearing about him attending party meetings are not pleasing at all. It appears he has become a party cadre and is already campaigning in the province. This may make his work very difficult because we will think that he has been brought to the province to campaign and not to do developmental work.

In the same vein, the new Permanent Secretary should understand that the former Permanent Secretary and hon. Members of Parliament in the province discussed developmental programmes. However, the new Permanent Secretary has not bothered to consult us on any developmental programmes. Maybe, she believes that she has all the powers and does not care about hon. Members of Parliament. I would like to advise her not to do that because she has not taken the correct position. Perhaps, Hon. Munkombwe did not hand over properly because if he did, the hon. Minister could have been present to listen to what we are saying because this is the time we are debating our province.

Let me also talk about the issue of graders. We are worried that the graders are stuck on the Kalomo/Chikanta Road because there is no diesel.

Mr Muchima entered the House.

Mr Muntanga: He has come now and he will listen to the debate.

I would like to tell him that there are graders on the Kalomo/Chikanta Road that need fuel. They were left there because of lack of fuel. I know that the province has not been funded adequately but, please, ensure that money is provided for the Kalomo/Chikanta Road. It has taken the Government two years to grade that single road. The other year, about 17 km of the road were graded and the same is likely to happen in 2011. When is the Government going to finish grading an 80-kilometre road? Should it take the Government three years to complete works on this road? There must be something wrong.

Mr Chairperson, the Southern Province has very few roads because the trunk road is both national and international. The other roads that we talk about are the ones that we want the Government to work on. Today, we will not talk about the Namwala/Choma Road because it has been completed. We will talk about the Bottom Road because it starts from Kalomo and passes through Mapatizya, Sinazongwe, Gwembe and Siavonga. This road should be attended to as soon as possible. Although the money is provided for through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, the provincial administration should push for it. The provincial administration should also ensure that certain programmes are implemented.

 I also want to remind the Government about the Kalomo District Hospital. The hon. Minister of Health seems to be forgetting about the Kalomo District Hospital because it was built with the help of the Highly Indebted Poor Countries Initiative (HIPC) Funds by the provincial administration.  The provincial administration ensured that the hospital was constructed. This was not an idea for the hon. Minister of Health. As a result, we need to continue reminding him about this hospital because it was not in his original plan. This is infrastructure that we need in the province and we want to show the Government that we can do certain things on our own.

We are all happy about the bumper harvest, but this was mostly produced by people who were not supported by the Government.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: The people in Chikanta do not need fertiliser.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: In my last debate, I informed the Government that, of the 2.8 million tonnes of maize produced in the area, the Government only produced 600,000 tonnes through its support programme. They cannot argue about it because it is something that is straightforward.  The balance was produced by people who did not get any support from the Government. I want to tell you that the Southern Province is an agricultural area. This is the way of life in the province.

We want the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development to reorganise the Veterinary Department.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Some of the officers in the province think that they cannot work. There are officers who cannot move unless they are given money. They need orientation because their attitude has not changed. The hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development should ensure that veterinary officers do their work. For instance, if you want them to get samples of blood from an animal, they want to be paid. They demand that you pick them up from their offices to the farm. When they get to the farm, they will ask the farmer whether he has any syringes or bottles for specimens while they are just standing there.

Mr Chairperson, this is very frustrating. As the hon. Minister tours the province, he should look at the performance of the Government workers. It is too far for the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development to come and inspect but, when you meet the hon. Members of Parliament in the province, they will give you the names of those extension officers. When you give a motorcycle to an extension officer, it is used to go to the bars.

The District Commissioner (DC) in Kalomo has not been confirmed in his position. As a result, he is scared and cannot control them.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: He has failed to control the officers. The local veterinary doctor hardly attends meeting even when they are called by the hon. Minister. It was not until we threatened him with an eviction notice from the council that he started attending meetings.

The hon. Minister and Permanent Secretary should do more to ensure that there is development in the Southern Province. Let them cut down on party meetings and focus on development.
Mr Chairperson, something very worrying is happening in the Southern Province. People are being evicted from Bilili Game and Nkandazovu Game management areas. I think Hon. Munkombwe will agree with me that these people were evacuated from the Gwembe Valley when the dam was full. They settled in Nkandazovu, but are being chased from there again. Where do you want these people to go? We chased the people from Sichifulo Game Management Area. Now, you are chasing people from Bilili and Nkandazovu. The Southern Province has problems relating to land. Land matters should be handled properly. Otherwise, we might find ourselves in a situation like Zimbabwe where land occupation will become illegal. We are not threatening you, but telling you the truth. Where do you expect the people who have been in Nkandazovu for more than twenty-five years to go? If they go to Mongu and start developing there, they will be chased again.

Sir, another issue I want to talk about is with regard to the bridge on Munyeke River. There is a new bridge which connects Dundumwezi to Kalomo Central. You made that shortcut, but there is no road. How do you put a bridge where there is no road? There is only a path there. We need a road there. That road can pass through Chifusa, cross Munyeke River and go up to Chikanta. If that road is not worked on, the bridge will be a white elephant. There is another road which has a bridge that has turned into a white elephant.

I know there is another beautiful bridge in Simango Area. When you cross that bridge, you will not find a road. How can you do that? We want the Provincial Minister to understand what I am talking about. We are not asking for a tarred road. The caterpillars and bulldozers can go and remove the trees so that we drive through the area. That way, your developmental activities will be appreciated by everybody. The things that appear small are very important. When people reach that bridge, they wonder where to go next. They end up turning back because there is only a small path and neither vehicles nor tractors can pass through it.

Sir, we are, therefore, appealing for much closer understanding. Your Provincial Rural Roads Unit should be funded more so that we can provide what is needed in the rural areas. You should not wait until you are told that the bridge you built is a white elephant.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the vote for the Southern Province. In the first instance, I want to take the debate of Hon. Muntanga as my own.

Sir, I stand to support the Vote, but feel the money allocated to it is inadequate in the productive sectors which include the rural road sector. The allocations vary from K983,366,913 to K238,775,000 and this does not make any sense to me. The roads in the rural parts of the Southern Province are in a bad state.

Mr Chairperson, the livestock and poultry sectors have only been allocated K142 million. This is not showing any seriousness because that money is supposed to include issues of restocking. I would like to mention that, to date, the K2 billion for the Southern Province which was meant for restocking has not been accounted for.

Sir, let me also talk about the issue of human development with regard to the K12 million which has been allocated for street kids and issues of gender empowerment in the Southern Province. This is terrible.

Sir, the Resettlement Department is a very important one, but I would like to mention that there has been completely no consultation with the hon. Members of Parliament or stakeholders on what the priority is in resettlements such as Masasabi Resettlement Scheme.

Sir, the purchase of equipment from China has just been a waste of taxpayers’ money. This equipment has not worked as intended. I have mentioned on the Floor of this House that the Government should try and find out what is happening with regard to this equipment. What is happening is that the Government has reached an extent of buying champion spare parts for Chinese-made equipment.

Laughter

Mr Beene: Sir, you will find that a mechanic can travel all the way from Livingstone to Itezhi-tezhi only to realise that the spare part was made in Germany while the equipment was made in China. This is the confusion which is on the ground, Hon. Minister. These are facts.

You should tell me the criteria you are using for giving one district K983,366,913 for a rural road, and yet you give Gwembe K238,775,000. It does not make sense. Gwembe has one of the most difficult terrains in this country. I am sure His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice will agree with me because we were together in Gwembe at one time when he was campaigning. He knows the terrain there. I am sure he will agree with me that the K238,775,000 is not enough to rehabilitate a road in Gwembe or Siavonga. That is why I am saying that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should try and revisit this Budget. That way, it will be helpful.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about Itezhi-tezhi. The rainy season is now on. Our provincial headquarters are in Livingstone. Therefore, during the rainy season, for me to travel from Itezhi-tezhi to Livingstone, I have to pass through Mumbwa, Lusaka and then Livingstone. I will have to cover about 2,000 km. I cannot pass through Namwala or Kalomo due to lack of good roads. Over forty years after independence, you are failing to make a bridge for us to cross the Kafue River. What is there for the people of Itezhi-tezhi? There is completely nothing.

Sir, I will also deal with the issue of the Nickel Mine in Mazabuka. I would like to mention that we have failed to represent the people of that district. Some people are coming to this House to sing songs that the mine is in operation when other issues are completely in disarray.

Mr Chairperson, the province has been allocated K129,720,000 for the Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee. I think this Government should be serious about certain structures that were established by mere circulars instead of passing the law in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Beene: The work of the PDCC has never been followed-up by the National Development Co-ordinating Committee (NDCC). Why then allocate K128 million when they do not even make follow-ups? All they do when they come to the province is drink tea. They do not evaluate anything.

I would like to urge the Government to allocate this money to a more productive sector. If possible, this money can be used to buy vaccines for the Southern Province or, better still, improve goat breeding and that of other livestock. It will be more helpful that way. 

Mr Chairperson, it is disappointing that K40 million can be given to a province to deal with issues of women empowerment. This amount is not enough for all the nineteen constituencies. Provinces need help. It is better not to allocate any money at all than give such a small amount.

Mr Chairperson, K51 million has been allocated for youth programmes for all the nineteen constituencies in the Southern Province, including infrastructure development such as youth centres. All this money will be spent on fuel before the Provincial Administration starts doing anything. This is lack of seriousness. It is business as usual for this Government. You cannot erect youth centres and other structures using K30 million. Divide this amount by nineteen constituencies. How much are we looking at? These are facts. The Executive came up with this Yellow Book without consulting.

Mr Chairperson, it seems that we are just concentrating on building one pit latrine each at Masasabi, Chikankata and Kalomo Resettlement schemes. Masasabi Resettlement Scheme under the Office of the Vice-President is a very big area that this Government planned for, and yet power was only connected in one corner of the resettlement and covers an area of about 3 to 4 km. How do you expect a retiree from Zambia Railways to tap power from the main source to connect to his house which is 3 km away? This is not development.

I have always mentioned that the term ‘development’ is abused by politicians in this country, particularly the Executive. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: This is a fact. We need to be serious.

Mr Chairperson, the people on your left are ready to liaise with the people on your right so that when serious matters arise, we know the best way to handle them for the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, less than K100 million was apportioned for water-related infrastructure for the whole province. There is no allocation for dam rehabilitation. Most of the dams in the Southern Province have silted. What budget do you want us to approve for the Southern Province? What money is there for its various programmes?

Hon. Opposition Member: There is nothing.

Mr Beene: It is business as usual.

Mr Chairperson, K150 million has been allocated for traditional ceremonies in the Southern Province. I cannot help, but wonder whether this money has not been allocated because of the elections next year. It is because of this that people want to take a lot of gifts to the chiefs. That notwithstanding, I do appreciate the fact that we need to take care of our chiefs. However, I still would like to state that this Government has caused a lot of problems for the chiefs. It is a good intention …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Beene: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was commenting on the K150 million that has been allocated for traditional ceremonies. I am appealing to this Government to help chiefs in more ways than they are doing currently.

You bought chiefs second-hand vehicles from Asia, but they are failing to get any spare parts. They cannot even get fuel for these vehicles. You could try and help them with such things rather than allocating this kind of money for traditional ceremonies. This is money that a Cabinet Minister or Permanent Secretary can use to get to some of these areas.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: Mr Chairperson, the situation in Mazabuka is very sad. At the moment, forty people from Kaleya Small Holdings were arrested for trying to negotiate their salaries. This is a very unfortunate situation which needs to be looked into.

Mr Chairperson, Kafue Road is in a bad state. Can the hon. Minister for Southern Province, together with the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, do something about it? At the moment, the situation is desperate.

In the Southern Province budget, there is nothing for a culvert for the Bottom Road. It is very disappointing.

Mr Chairperson, the one who is supposed to be accountable for expending monies is the Permanent Secretary.

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I feel very indebted to you for giving me an opportunity to raise this very important point of order. I also wish to apologise to my hon. Colleague whose debate is wonderful, eloquent and constructive. May I know whether, according to our Standing Orders, a junior hon. Minister like Hon. Mubika Mubika, who comes all the way from Sinjembela, is allowed to sit in the Front Bench without a promotion from His Excellency the President? I need your very serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is simply that may the hon. Member debating continue

Laughter

Mr Beene:  Mr Chairperson, as we approve this budget for the Southern Province, let it be known that the one who is supposed to be held accountable on how the money is spent is the Permanent Secretary. I would like to ask this Government to help permanent secretaries by not putting them under undue pressure which may lead them to misapply money.

Sir, when the provincial administration receives senior people in the province, sometimes, its officers have no money to run around. I know that they get permission to execute their duties from Cabinet Office which is in Lusaka. Please, do not pressurise the Government officers at the provincial level unnecessarily so that the money which is in the province is put to good use. It must be spent on the intended projects. At times, you will find that police officers have got no fuel when a senior Government official is supposed to be in Monze. This is what forces the Provincial Administration to divert money meant for other things to help the police officers with fuel.

With these few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Ms Limata (Luampa): Mr Speaker, I stand here on behalf of the people of Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to support the budget for Western Province, but with a lot of reservations. The people of Western Province are very disappointed with the performance of the MMD Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: I do not know whether the people of Western Province are regarded as part of this country. I say so because the roads in this province are in a deplorable condition. Yes, I know that some money has been allocated for works on the Kalabo/Mongu Road, but I doubt if this money will be released. Are you doing this because of politics or you just do not want to do it despite us going towards elections? That question is begging for an answer.

Mr Chairperson, we also have the Katunda/Lukulu Road which needs to be worked on. There is no river between Kaoma and Lukulu which would have helped ease the transport problems that the people face. At the Boma itself, there is no tarred road. It is such things that make the people of Lukulu District ask whether they are also Zambians or not.

Sir, we were given some money for the Machile/Luampa Road that is a boundary between my constituency and that for the National Chairman for the MMD, Hon. Mabenga.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: It is surprising to note that we do not know where this money is.  I wonder if the people of Machile will vote for Mabenga.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, I think that we need to leave political party issues outside this House and concentrate on the debate on the Floor of the House. Do not start discussing personal issues.

You may continue, please.

Ms Limata:  Mr Chairperson, I was saying that Machile/Luampa Road is the shortest route to Botswana, Zimbabwe and Namibia. Money was allocated to this road by the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC,. through this august House, may his soul rest in peace. Even the current President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, also mentioned about this same project but, to date, the road has not been worked on.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Western Province need good roads because they are also Zambians, but it looks like they are not catered for.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the Government that as it works on the Kalabo/Mongu Road, it should also consider working on the Kalabo/Kalongola Road, which is the shortest route to Kalabo.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, we have not received the allocation for the construction of new schools in the Western Province. I do not know what will happen in this province as regards the construction of new schools.

Sir, the House will recall that the last time I stood on the Floor of this House, I talked about the education of the girl child. The re is a saying that goes, “When you educate a girl, you have educated the whole family.”

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: Sir, apart from Nakanya, which is under construction, we have only one high school for girls called Holy Cross which is a day school in the Western Province. We do not even know when the school under construction will be completed. There are about seventeen constituencies, but we have not received even a single coin for the construction schools.

Interruptions

Ms Limata: Every time I talk about money, you always refer to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I am not talking about the CDF, but money from the Ministry of Education to support the people of this province through education.

 Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata:  Mr Chairperson, there was some money which was allocated to basic schools in the Western Province from 2007 to 2009, but we do not know what the money was used for.

Mr Mubika: Quality!

Laughter

Ms Limata: I can even cite examples of some of the schools which were allocated money, but have not received it. These are Ng’uma Basic School, Mulobezi High School, Milumbwa Basic School, Namasheshe Basic School, Chacha Basic School and Mutete in Lukulu West. Where did all this money go?

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, there was a question, which I asked on the Floor of this House, and the hon. Deputy Minister can bear me witness concerning the K378 million which was allocated to Luampa High School. This money has not been received yet by the school. Where is the money?

Sir, since we are now going towards elections, let me take this opportunity to make all of you in this House aware that the people of Western Province will chase all those who are not supporting them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Limata: His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is looking at me because I am telling the truth. The people of Western Province are very disappointed with this Government because of the way it treats them. Therefore, my advice to this Government is that it should ensure that it monitors the use of resources. I am saying so because the money, which this Government allocates to the province, does not benefit the people at all.

Mr D. Mwila: Tell them!

Ms Limata: Mr Chairperson, allow me to talk about the agriculture sector. This Government has forgotten about the people of Western Province as regards agricultural inputs. I have observed that, when hon. Members stand to speak in this House, they only talk about maize and rice, but have forgotten about sorghum, finger millet and cassava. Besides maize and rice, we can also make a lot of money from cassava, finger millet and sorghum. As a result of not paying attention to these crops, people have forgotten about their culture which entails growing such crops.

Sir, before I debate my last point, I would like to say that I will leave other issues to my colleagues from the Western Province to debate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer! Hammer!

Ms Limata: When I debated the last time, I mentioned this point and I will repeat it. We, the people of Western Province, are very good people.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member you can only emphasise and not repeat.

Ms Limata: However, the 2011 General Elections are coming and we are going to turn against you.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Lumba (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Estimates of Expenditure on the Vote for the North-Western Province.

Sir, first and foremost, I would like to congratulate the new Permanent Secretary for the North-Western Province …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let me take this opportunity to appeal to hon. Members to leave civil servants out of their debates. Whether you are speaking positively or negatively about them, the understanding outside this House may be totally different from your intentions. We want our civil servants to feel professional. Therefore, I appeal to all of you to desist from debating civil servants. We can debate anything about hon. Ministers, but let us avoid bringing the Civil Service into our debates.

You may continue.

Mr Lumba: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance and I am most obliged.

Sir, on Friday, last week, I travelled to Solwezi using Mumbwa Road through Kasempa. I covered a distance of 430 km. If I had used the conventional road, it could have been close to 800 km. The point I am bringing out is that there is a good road which, if this Government did a good job on, accessing the North-Western Province would be within a matter of hours.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumba: Mr Chairperson, using this route, Lusaka to Kasempa, my Nissan Patrol only used half a tank of petrol.

Mr Chazangwe: It is a good road!

Mr Lumba: That is a good road.

Sir, considering the new developmental projects in the North-Western Province, the Government should think of tarring this road. It is a very good road. There is a beautiful scenery along this road because it passes through the game park and I saw a lot of kudus and warthogs on the way.

Mr Chairperson, there are two rivers that cut across this road and the Government should construct bridges on them instead of people using pontoons to cross over. This will bring good development to the area. The land is so fertile that a lot of people have settled along this road. Therefore, we need the Mumbwa/Kasempa Road to be tarred.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumba: If this road is tarred, it will be good not only for the mining companies, but also the farmers living along that road.

Sir, during my stay in Solwezi, I saw a number of huge trucks with Tanzanian number plates going into the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). These trucks came all the way from Dar-es-Salaam or whatever place in Tanzania to use the Kipushi Road in the North-Western Province to enter the DRC instead of using the Copperbelt route. Therefore, this road is proving to be economically viable to this country. For this reason, I wish to request the Government to tar the Solwezi/Kipushi Road because it will be for the good of this country.

Having said that about roads, Mr Chairperson, I was just looking at the budgetary allocations for all provinces for 2011 and I have noted that there has been an increment in allocation to other provinces of about K4 billion plus, but only K3 billion plus has been allocated to the North-Western Province. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning why there has been this reduction? I want the hon. Minister, when he comes to wind up debate, to answer this question.

In the North-Western Province, Kansanshi is the only mine in the province that is paying tax, and yet the people there are not benefiting anything. I am very passionate about this issue because it is even showing, as the previous hon. Member said about the Western Province, that we, the people of North-Western Province, have been neglected by this Government. Why have we been allocated only K3 billion while other provinces have been given K4 billion?

Sir, there are a lot of mining activities in the North-Western Province. Just over the weekend, I met an archaeologist who has been hired by First Quantum Mine (FQM) to work in the new mine called Kalumbiwa. I was told that although people were excited about Lumwana Mine, they were yet to see a bigger mine coming up. Lumwana is a toy compared to the new mine that is coming up. However, what is this mine going to do for the people of North-Western Province?

I will tell you what the mines are doing in the North-Western Province. They have made life difficult for the people because things have become expensive. A local indigenous person in Solwezi is not benefiting in any way. Accommodation has become expensive. Now, we are told that the Solwezi/Chingola Road will be worked on under the private-public partnership (PPP) which means …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member debating in order to misinform the nation by saying that he met an archaeologist going to mine when it is supposed to be a geologist?

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Is he in order to mislead the nation?

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member debating will continue and take that point of order into account.

Mr Lumba: Mr Chairperson, I went to school and I know the difference between a geologist and an archaeologist. I met an archaeologist and not a geologist, who told me that one of the things that he noticed was that the graveyards of the people in that area had been disturbed.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumba: He was hired to look at that kind of thing. Therefore, Sir, I met an archaeologist and not a geologist.

Mrs Phiri: Goliati waumfwa!

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo!

Laughter

Mr Lumba: I was saying that these mines have just brought about the human-immuno deficiency virus/acquired immuno deficiency virus (HIV/AIDS) in Solwezi.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumba: They have brought an influx of people in Solwezi and the local people are not benefiting.

The grave of my grandmother, the mother of my father, is in the Kansanshi Mine area. At the moment, I am not allowed to go and visit my grandmother’s grave. That is what is happening. We are not allowed to visit these graves. Indigenous people have nothing to boast about as far as the mines are concerned. To make matters worse, Sir, other provinces have been given K4 billion while we have been given K3 billion. What wrong have we done to this Government?

Sir, the people in this province do not want the Solwezi/Chingola Road to be worked on under a PPP. This is because the people have to benefit. If the road is worked on by the Government and not a PPP, a small-scale farmer, who has a canter, can drive on that road without paying at the toll gates. If it is worked on by a PPP, how much would he have spent on fuel which, even though is uniformly priced, it is still expensive to get to Chingola?

Mr Chairperson, we have heard that the North-Western Province is becoming the new Copperbelt. I agree with that because there are a lot of mining activities there. For those of you who have visited Solwezi, there is an area called Kivuku. Just over the weekend, I was told that the people there are going to lose their cultivating fields because the Chinese are investing there.

In another area called Sandang’ombe, again, I was told that the people were going to be displaced because a huge mining company was going to invest there. I would like to know what compensation the people who are losing their land will get. We want the mining agreements to take into account the people who are being displaced because they need to benefit from the God-given resources. I do not think that the Lord God made a mistake by providing many resources in the North-Western Province, particularly Solwezi. This is so because, in his providential care for his people, he gave Solwezi the resources it has so that the people who live there can benefit.

Mr Chairperson, over the weekend, most of the stories I heard were about people being displaced because of the mining activities going to the province. Kansanshi is increasing its mining activities. As such, it is putting up more dams. Owing to this, more people in Mushitala and some other places are about to lose their fields to pave way for the project without any compensation. We want this Government to consider compensating the people whose land is taken away for mining activities so that they can also benefit.

Mr Chairperson, still on mining, one of the things that is lacking is supporting infrastructure. Solwezi is just a township with one middle road which the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government left. There is nothing to write home about in terms of development. It is the only provincial town with one street or shall I say one main road. Pupils and trucks going to Lumwana use just that one small road. Therefore, the Government must consider this road when it gets tax from Kansanshi. We also want the Solwezi Integrated Plan to be implemented as these developments are going on.

Mr Chairperson, I see that time is running out and realise the need for my colleagues to debate as well, but I cannot conclude my debate without talking about health. When I last debated, I said that the Government had done well in infrastructure development such as the construction of hospitals, but I would like to inform the House what has happened. I will talk about two clinics which were properly built by this Government. However, at the moment, the teachers have turned these into homes because, firstly, they do not have accommodation and, secondly, the clinics do not have professionals to man them nor medicines to make them operate as clinics.

Mr Chairperson, there is a clinic in Mapopo which is now a home for a teacher. There is also another clinic in an area called Mulenga, which was built by the World Vision but, because of lack of support from the Government, it has also been turned into a teacher’s house. I would, therefore, like to urge the Government that, as it builds clinics, it should also look at the staffing and make the clinics operational so that they are not turned into teachers’ houses.

Mr Chairperson, as regards education, although we appreciate that schools are being built, the sad part is that there is a lack of teachers in the North-Western Province. It is no wonder that, when the Grade 12 results are announced, we are the least performers. The problem is not with the pupils, but that most schools do not have teachers and laboratories.

Sir, the other day, we heard my colleague from Mufumbwe asking when the Government would build a laboratory at a school in Mufumbwe. That problem is not only in Mufumbwe, but also in the North-Western Province. We are appealing to this Government, through the Ministry of Education, to, please, give us complete high schools by providing facilities which make a high school be referred to as such.

Finally, Sir, I am appealing to this Government to have the Solwezi Integrated Plan implemented before Solwezi becomes a big shanty compound with plans which are wayward. We would also like the council to be accountable. Sometime back, there was an audit conducted by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing which was not publicised. Is this because the councillors there are members of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD)? Some councillors have been found wanting due to misuse of funds. It is there in the report at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. We would like the people involved to be taken to book so that the rates we are getting from the mines are protected.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for Lusaka Province. I will start by referring to the policy statement by His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice on the main objective of the provincial administration of co-ordinating the Government policy between the centre and peripheral.

Having said this, I would like to state that the role of the provincial administration needs to be redefined because, clearly, it is getting engaged in work that it should not be engaged in. In the process, we seem to be losing direction. I will specifically refer to the function of the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) which is dealing with roads.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at the 2010 Budget, K5 billion was supposed to be allocated for roads in the various districts of Lusaka Province. However, the problem is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. This is because although we approved the K5 billion, to date, only K2.7 billion has been released for the maintenance of roads in the province. Now, how is the province expected to implement the road works if the remaining 50 per cent is not released by the end of the year? Speaking for Lusaka, the worst part is the way the money is released according to the payment schedules. The first release was in March, the next, in June, the other one in August and the last one was this month, November, which is already the end of the year.

Mr Chairperson, the rains start in November and some places are already impassable. So, how do you expect a grader to work on a road in Chongwe now when it is raining heavily? The function of the RRU must be recast. I would like to suggest to the Government that the resources for district roads go to district councils and not the province. For example, how do you expect roads within Lusaka District such as those in Kanyama, Kafue or, indeed, Rufunsa constituencies to be worked on when the district councils are excluded in the process? Obviously, the results are going to be poor.

Mr Chairperson, in the Yellow Book, it has been claimed that specific roads have been worked on in 2010 and so, no resources will be allocated to them in 2011, and yet when you get on the ground, you discover that it is not the case. I would like to tell His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice that this is a very serious issue. You gave a policy statement for all the provinces in the country, but what is on the ground is what I am telling you.

Sir, I will give two examples in Chongwe. The first one is the Palabana Road, which is reported to have been worked on in 2010 and, therefore, will have no allocation in 2011. However, the truth is that this road has not been worked on. In Rufunsa Constituency − maybe, the hon. Member of Parliament of this area does not know because he is an hon. Minister and if he knows, he cannot speak, but I may as well speak on his behalf − there is a road which is claimed to have been worked on. As a result, the resources will be reduced, and yet the road has not been worked on.
 
Mr Chairperson, even when the works are being done, the council is not informed about them. People just walk in and out of the district.

Some of the resources in the budget for the works in the districts are exhausted on paying allowances to officers who go to work in various districts. Can you not see that it is costly? It is better for this money to go straight to the districts so that the district councils can work on the roads because they know them and can supervise the works better than anybody else.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the function of the provincial administration should be to ensure that the money that is sent to the districts is properly utilised.

Mr Hamududu: Correct.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, there are no two ways about this. Otherwise, you will continue releasing money that will end up being used to pay allowances and no work will be done. I thought I should talk about that issue.

Mr Chairperson, it is better for this administration to start implementing the Decentralisation Policy. We should also see to it that some of these issues that are straightforward contribute to the achievement of the policy itself.  For instance, why should the provinces be dealing with small roads in the communities? Why should the money go to the province, and yet the district councils that has the authority over roads do not even get K1 for road works?

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear! Hammer, there!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, how do you expect these roads to be rehabilitated? I have been speaking on the Floor of this House that this issue of roads is going to eat us up. Even by the time we reach 2011, the cries for roads will not have stopped.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, in the past, the Road Development Agency (RDA), which is under the Ministry of Works and Supply, councils, agriculture and tourism took care of the roads under it. At the moment, when you see what is happening, you will agree with me that there is a problem. My suggestion is that we should allow the district councils to get part of that money for road works at the district level. This is because if you give a council K5 million for road works, they can either use graders for those that have their own graders and those that do not have can hire them and just buy fuel. The same equipment for the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) can be used and the officers there can just supervise the allocation of the road equipment. At the moment, I am sure you have heard that most of our colleagues here are complaining about the manner the road works are being implemented in various districts of the provinces. It is a disaster.

Mr Chairperson, you might not like what I am saying, but that is the truth on the ground. Therefore, I would like to suggest that the provincial administration for Lusaka reviews the allocation of funds because, clearly, it will be more than a disaster in 2011. Today, you cannot tell me that a road like Palabana cannot have funding allocated to it for the whole year on the basis that you worked on it last year, and yet there was no road that was rehabilitated in the constituency.

Mr Chairperson, in the budget, you have included a road called Chishiko. That is Chishiko Village in Chongwe Constituency where you have said the road was rehabilitated in 2010 and that, in 2011, there will be no resources allocated to it. That is a village where one of my relatives comes from and it is not true that this road was rehabilitated in 2009 using the CDF account. We hired a grader, bought fuel and graded it. There was no road there. We just opened it up for the first time, but here we are, being told that it was rehabilitated in 2010 and, therefore, in 2011, there will be no funds allocated to it.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the Leopards Hill and Kasisi roads which are important. For example, the Leopards Hill Road was funded every year since I came to Parliament in 2002 up to 2008. The Leopards Hill Road is in the hands of the farmers there. They put the money together and hire a grader to grade it. When they grade it, then the Government says the road was rehabilitated in 2010 and, so, it will not be funded in 2011. Clearly, we are not being serious.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I would like to talk about concerns the budgets of the provinces and the role of the district administration vis-à-vis District Commissioners (DC) and Members of Parliament. In Chongwe, we do not have a problem because all of us there meet in the District Development Co-ordinating Committee (DDCC) to discuss issues. Whenever the DC calls for a meeting, he invites the Members of Parliament. Therefore, if we, the Members of Parliament, do not attend the meetings, it is our fault and not that of the DC’s office. Again, I would like to say that there is a need for the DDCC to be legalised because that is just an administrative body for technocrats that has no legal backing. However, decisions are sometimes taken from there which are implemented without the support of the policy makers. Thus, it is either that body is formalised or the Decentralisation Policy is implemented, as this will formalise that body.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I said that I was going to be very brief.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to talk about an issue which is very important and that is the role of the provincial local government officers. The provincial local government officers are also not working effectively, His Honour the Vice-President. The point is that even if, here, we agree that resources should go to the provincial local government officers for them to inspect, monitor and evaluate the councils to ensure that they continue guiding the local authorities, they still will not able to get to the councils because they have no funding. Despite approving the funding here, that money does not go to the provincial local government offices. In many cases, when they want to visit the districts, they are told that there is no money.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to make a suggestion that the money for the provincial local government officers goes directly to them as is the case with the Ministry of Health. The Provincial Health Director and District Health Directors are able to work efficiently according to their plan because the money goes straight to them. In the case of the provincial local government offices at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, the officers are not able to perform their functions effectively because they are told that there is no money.

Mr Chairperson, for example, in the Northern Province, which is a big province, the provincial local government officer (PLG) has never visited the districts because there was no money, and yet the money was budgeted for. They will tell you that, “You see, it is because we are under the provincial administration and so, we depend on whatever the Permanent Secretary (PS) will say with regard to how the resources are used.”

Mr Chairperson, lastly, the other point which I would like to make is on the functions of the hon. Ministers vis-à-vis the budgets. I think it is important that the hon. Ministers – I heard the Chairperson making a ruling that we should not talk about PSs or officers who are outside the House, and he is right. Sometimes, hon. Ministers do not even know what is going on regarding their budgets. I think there is a need for hon. Ministers to take full responsibility of the budgets so that when we attack them here, at least, it will be fair rather than to attack them when we know that they are not responsible for some of the mess.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, sometimes, the money that is released is just for one district and the other districts are not given anything. The people who are not politicians may not appreciate that it is important to have equitable distribution of resources so that …

Mr Munaile: Equitable is the word.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … all the districts use the money instead of one district getting money in January while the others get it in November or December when it is raining. Then it is too late to implement any projects. Therefore, I think that the hon. Minister must have more say on the budgets so that when we attack his administration, he does not cry foul.

With those very few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the budget for the Northern Province which I support. Before I come to the issues that I want to discuss, I, first of all, want to give a background of the Northern Province where I come from. The Northern Province is about one fifth of Zambia’s land with about 147,286 km² of space.

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, it shares its borders with four countries, namely the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Burundi, Tanzania and Malawi. It is on the southern African plateau of about 1,200 m above sea level. The population in this province is about 1.4 million, according to the 2000 National Census. It has twelve districts …

Mr Munaile: Bebe bomfwe, boyi.

Mr C. Mulenga: … and twenty-one constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, I wanted to start with this background …

Mr Msichili: Na Munaile ekowafuma.

Mr C. Mulenga: … to show that this province, obviously, requires a lot of money …

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: … to grow its economy. Despite it being about 147,000 km², the province only has 900 km of tarred roads that are in a deplorable condition and require urgent rehabilitation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government is the only Government that gives a stone to somebody who is asking for bread.

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: Furthermore, when we ask for fish, it gives a snake.

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: Some hon. Members and I have asked, on the Floor of this House, many times, that this Government repairs the roads in the Northern Province. The Great North Road, which runs through Serenje, Mpika and Kasama all the way to Nakonde, is in a deplorable condition. From Mpika to Isoka, the road is almost impassable. This is a very important road to the economy of this country because it is our link to east Africa. However, this road has been neglected …

Mr Munaile: Completely!

Mr C. Mulenga: … completely. When we ask the Government to rehabilitate it, what do we see? Some portions are patched up, which, by now, …

Mr Munaile: It is gravel.

Mr C. Mulenga: … come off and I do not even know how to describe how it looks.

Interruptions

Mr C. Mulenga: It is now a gravel road with huge potholes. People have died on this road. When one is driving on it, he/she does not know when he/she will reach where he/ she is going.

Mr Mwamba: It is a nightmare.

Mr C. Mulenga: It is a nightmare and a deathtrap.

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, we have talked so many times that the people of Northern Province are not happy at all about this matter.

Mr Munaile: Never!

Mr Mwamba: So, do not blame them.

Mr C. Mulenga: Hon. Munaile, last time, debated passionately about the road …

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: … from Isoka to Luwingu, in fact, up to Mansa.

Interruptions

Mr C. Mulenga: However, no money has been allocated for the rehabilitation of this road in this year’s Budget. Another issue that we have talked so much about is that of the Mbesuma Bridge.

Mr Munaile: Nolupiya balilya.

Mr C. Mulenga: Where is the money that was allocated for this bridge, but was embezzled? The Government is rushing to talk about money laundering of US$100,000 instead of arresting the people who chewed the money for the Mbesuma Bridge.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Those are the issues we want addressed. We need to see development in the Northern Province. This province has beeen neglected. Look at the road from Kasama/Mporokoso to Kaputa.

Mr Munaile: Iyee!

Mr C. Mulenga: Who can drive on that road? The road is completely damaged and there is nothing to talk about.

Mr Mwamba: Yet there are hon. Cabinet Ministers who hail from the area.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, let me point out that we have three hon. Cabinet Ministers in this House from the Northern Province. When the President is appointing hon. Cabinet Ministers, we cry foul when hon. Members from our province are not appointed. We do this because we hope that when we have more hon. Cabinet Ministers, they will have influence in the Budget process. However, this has not been the case with the hon. Cabinet Ministers from our province.

Mr Munaile: We hoped that they would speak for us.

Mr C. Mulenga: Exactly. We hoped that they would have influence in Government in order to develop our province. However, what do we see?

Mr Munaile: Nothing.

Mr C. Mulenga: Nothing.

Mr Mwamba: They only speak for their pockets.

Mr C. Mulenga: When hon. Ministers such as Hon. Mutati stand up here to talk about economics, one would think that there are wonders where he comes from.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: However, what do we see? There is nothing happening in places like Mporokoso, where there is just dust.

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: There are no paved roads in the district. In Isoka, …

Interruptions

Mr C. Mulenga: I am talking about the roads in Isoka townships ...

Mr Munaile: Where Hon. Namugala comes from.

Mr C. Mulenga: … where Hon. Namugala comes from  – she is a very influential person, but she has failed to influence the National Budget to develop the Northern Province by developing Isoka. We need paved roads in Isoka townships. How many times are we going to talk about this?

Today, as we speak, people are sleeping on the floors in hospitals in the Northern Province without linen, medicine and other health requirements, and yet the hon. Minister of Health comes from this province. What is he doing?

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: He should tell me what influence he has in Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Bwekeshapo!

Mr C. Mulenga: Hon. Ministers from our province are there to bring development to the Northern Province. We hoped that they were going to influence this Budget to also skew development towards the Northern Province, but there is nothing happening. Hon. Cabinet Ministers from the Northern Province, what are you doing?

Interruptions

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, these are the problems in the Northern Province. We need development as well. Kasama General Hospital is a referral centre, and yet patients sleep on the floor. In fact, patients sleep on the floor in all the hospitals in the Northern Province.

Another issue is the water situation in the Northern Province.

Mr Msichili: It is pathetic.

Mr C. Mulenga: The water situation in the Northern Province is pathetic. Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company has failed to deliver services to the people.

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: I, however, cannot blame the company for this failure. The problem is that Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company has no proper infrastructure for it …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr C. Mulenga: … to deliver services to the people of Northern Province. The Government is not helping Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company to come out of that situation. We have seen the Government help other provinces such as the Eastern Province. What about us in the Northern Province? There is no water in Mpulungu where there is even a lake. Office and residential buildings in Mpulungu, at the moment, have no running water, but there is nothing being done about this.

Mr Mwamba: Poor planning.

Mr C. Mulenga: Where is the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development?

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: We need to see development in the Northern Province.

Mr Chairperson, I appeal to this Government not to politicise the issue of development in the Northern Province. What we need is service delivery. If the hon. Members on your right want to campaign for their President to win in the Northern Province, they must deliver. That is the best way to campaign. They should not deny the districts where there are Opposition hon. Members of Parliament, like myself, development. What they need to do is take service delivery to Chinsali, then they will convince the people of Chinsali. They should not just tell people to vote for President Rupiah Banda without doing this. It will never work and this is a fact I am telling them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Development should be taken to the Northern Province.

I now move to the RRU. The Northern Province was allocated money under the RRU …

Mr Msichili: Mudala, nwako amenshi.

Mr Msichili handed Mr C. Mulenga a bottle of water.

Mr C. Mulenga: I do not need your water.

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the RRU has failed lamentably to work in the Northern Province. You have guided us not to discuss the Civil Service and I respect your guidance, but let us remove politics from the Northern Province. We need development and we are eager to see development there. We are begging you to take away all the people, including the hon. Ministers, who have failed to deliver services to our people. We do not need them. You can give us Hon. Sikazwe to be hon. Minister there and it can work. If you fail, bring back Hon. Shawa and we will receive him well. The people you have given us have failed to deliver and I am condemning the appointing authority himself.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Sit down!

Hon. Members we should not get so emotional as to lose focus. The President of Zambia was elected by the people of the country. By saying that you condemn him means you are condemning the people who elected him, that is what democracy is all about. When someone is elected President, you expect that he will be respected and not condemned. That is what democracy is all about. Emotional debate always ends up this way. Avoid being emotional and debate properly. Democracy is about respect for the people’s choice. You do not have any choice in that regard if you are a people’s representative.

May you continue.

Mr Mubika: Drink some water now!

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to take some water.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member unless you debate like a hon. Member, I will ask you to stop. I did not ask you to drink water. I was making a ruling and you either respect it or stay in your seat. Make your choice.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I respect your ruling. Let me move on.

Mr Chairperson, still on the issue of theRRU, our feeder roads are in a deplorable condition and we cannot move from one point to the other because of the state of the roads. In all the districts in the Northern Province, and without exception, the roads are in a pathetic state. This is why I am appealing to this Government to understand that, as Members of Parliament, when we stand here and present these issues, we are very serious about them because these are the issues that are making this Government unpopular. This is why I am saying that, please, that earth-moving equipment that you brought us has not done anything.

In my constituency, for example, it has not done anything from the time it was taken there. I believe, even in Isoka, the equipment went there quite all right, but it did not do a good job. It is the same in Kasama and everywhere else. So, where has the money gone?

Ms Namugala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is debating so poorly, in order to attack hon. Ministers when it is him who has failed to deliver on the promises he made in his constituency under his failed party, the PF? I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Where is the excitement coming from? The point of order raised by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources talks about what is happening in the constituency of the hon. Member who is debating.

Allow me to simply say that the hon. Minister will have an opportunity, should she want to talk. This is the opportunity of the hon. Member to state how he sees things in the Northern Province

May he continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I will not touch that issue. There is a lot of tourism potential in the Northern Circuit that we have been talking about for a long time. Of course, I know that there is something happening in the Kasaba Bay and many other areas, but we have not done much as a Government to ensure that tourism is promoted in the Northern Province. Constructing an international airport at Kasaba Bay does not mean that we have achieved tourism attraction there.

Mr Chairperson, in the Northern Province, we have very nice sites and when I visited Kalambo Falls, I noticed that there were no falls in the world such as the  Kalambo Falls. This is why I am lamenting that if we can manipulate those falls, I am sure the Northern Province will be one of the most developed provinces in this country.

With those few words, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the budget for the Western Province. In a place where you find that we are all scrambling for the few resources, it becomes very difficult to take a national stance.

Interruptions

Ms Imbwae: I am talking about the Western Province. I have been debating the Western Province since I came to this House. I am not sure whether we have a problem in looking for resources for the province. Therefore, this year, I decided to go through the Yellow Book differently and look at the programmes that the provinces have decided to include. I did that because I am not sure whether we are using the right template. If we are, then something else needs to be looked at.

Mr Mubika: Listen Mwila, quality!

Ms Imbwae: There are four basic programmes that appear on all the provincial budgets and these are personal emoluments, general administration, capacity building and utilities. Some provinces have allocations for dismantling of arrears while others have forgotten about that. The Western Province has twelve programmes listed in the Yellow Book, namely Personal Emoluments; General Administration; Utilities; Dismantling of Arrears, Improvement of Health Services, Improvement of Security Infrastructure and Township Electrification. I find this very interesting because this is for the province, but we are putting a township there and reflecting it in the budget for the headquarters. That is why I am wondering whether we are using the right template.

There is also an allocation for improvement of office infrastructure. Which office is this when we are talking about the Vote for the provincial headquarters? There is an allocation for animal disease control too. So, those who are following the debate can go to the province and check these programmes. There is also monitoring and evaluation, but there is no allocation for this activity.

There is no correlation between the programme for animal disease control and what appears in other provinces as cattle or animal restocking. I am focusing on the template that we are using because it makes us lose out from the budgeting process as a province.

Mr Chairperson, Lusaka Province has very interesting programmes. I am saying this because the template we are using must change. There is education improvement. Who does not know that education infrastructure in the Western Province is very poor …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: … and that it is missing in the provincial budget? All this is because of the template.

Sir, the Western Province, again, has no allocation for infrastructure development and livestock improvement, and yet Lusaka Province has. Does this mean that we not need to improve our livestock? The Western Province is supposed to be a cattle exporting province, but no money has been allocated for animal restocking though we have money for disease control. How do we improve the Animal Restocking Exercise if it is not budgeted for? Again, I am not sure where the problem is.

Sir, Lusaka Province has the Fish Out-grower Scheme. Money has been allocated to the Western Province for animal disease control, but no money has been allocated for the Fish Restocking Exercise. How are we going to improve the Fish Restocking Exercise if we cannot learn from what is happening in the other parts of the country? I, therefore, urge the Government, through the ministry responsible, to fund the Western Province for fish restocking. I am aware that the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development is new. Therefore, it gives us an advantage to bring in the important issues of cattle and fish. They have not been included in the provincial budget so, where are we going to get the funding for these important programmes from?

If someone tells me that they are going to be included in the mainline budget for the ministry, how come they have also been budgeted for in other provinces? This is because they understand that, sometimes, there is a delay in the release of funds and, so, the programmes can be taken care of in the provincial budget. However, I am surprised that money has been allocated for this exercise in other provinces only.

Sir, there is also the issue of funding for special events and chiefs’ entertainment. The Government should not forget that there are many festivities in the Western Province too some of which are peculiar to the province only. I am surprised to note that there is no money allocated for this. This template needs to be changed.

 Under the Eastern Province, there is an allocation for development of infrastructure and Luangwa Valley Ecosystem Partnerships. I would have expected the Western Province, which is a lot of water, to have an allocation for eco-tourism, ecosystems management, water sheds management and so on and so forth, but there is nothing. This template is not right because it is also dealing with issues of climate change but the Western Province has no allocation for this.

The Eastern Province has an allocation for HIV/AIDS, parliamentary sessions and development planning and monitoring, but there is no development planning and monitoring in the Western Province. How is the provincial administration going to use money allocated by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to the Western Province? Who is going to make sure that money which has been allocated is properly used? Again, my problem is the template.

Sir, money has been allocated for vehicle maintenance though most roads are impassable. With the terrain of the Western Province, there should be a provision for more money for maintenance of Government vehicles because most of the roads are in a bad state. For example, most of the roads in Lukulu West are impassable. This is all because the template is wrong.

In Luapula Province, there is an allocation for management and regulation of fish industry. I thank those managing the template for Luapula Province. This is because fish is important. Therefore, I urge the Government to help the brothers and sisters in the Western Province.

Laughter

Ms Imbwae: Luapula Province has an allocation for Oil Palm Out-growers Scheme. This needs to be diversified. I appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to help us sort out this template. An amount of K45 billion has been allocated for salaries and not activities that will improve the Western Province.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for Southern Province.

Mr Chairperson, let me begin by welcoming the new hon. Deputy Minister of Southern Province, Mr Muchima. We shall give you all the support. I also want to welcome the new Permanent Secretary of Southern Province.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, leave the civil servants out of your debate.

You may continue.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the new hon. Minister that he needs time to work with the hon. Members of Parliament from the Southern Province. We, the hon. Members of Parliament in this province support all the hon. Ministers who are appointed to run the affairs of our province. There is not a single Provincial Minister we have not co-operated with.

 However, I should inform you that the tendency of some hon. Ministers to come up with programmes in constituencies without the knowledge of the hon. Members of Parliament is not acceptable. We want to work with all the provincial ministers because we have no grudge against anyone. However, we will not accept actions like those of the other hon. Minister who said that if an hon. Member does not talk to him and plead for development, he would shut the door, and hence there would be no development in that particular constituency.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: You are in Government and must be friendly to the people who put you there, including other elected hon. Members of Parliament. You should not be enemies of the people like some newspapers are.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Those in Government should not be enemies of the people. If you emulate the behaviour of some newspapers that have become enemies to mankind, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: … we shall not tolerate you.

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Hon. Minister, we want you to ensure that we sit together and discuss the projects in our constituencies. I realise that in the past three years, money has been disbursed to the Provincial Administration for feeder roads, but I wonder who follows up how that money is spent. We have a problem with these provincial permanent secretaries. We are keeping people who just dose.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Leave civil servants out of your debate.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, what I am trying to say is that in certain instances, we blame the Government for all the failures when it is the provincial permanents secretaries …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Ntundu, I do not know what language to use, but all I want to tell you is that you should leave civil servants out of your debate.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to say that the Government allocated road equipment to provinces. However, if you were to follow up the use of that equipment, you would discover that it does nothing. The only road that has been worked on is the Namwala Road because Banda visited. However, if you came to Gwembe …

Hon. Government Members: Order!

Which Banda?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Ntundu, please, sit down.

 Hon. Members, we refer to each other honourably because we are the people’s representatives. The President of this country was elected by the people of Zambia. He must be accorded the respect that he deserves. Furthermore, he is the mirror of our country, for now, whether we like him or not. I think it only makes sense that when we speak about the Head of State, we bear in mind that he is the mirror of this country. If we do not respect him, how do we expect people outside this country to do that?

Hon. Government Member: Under five!

The Deputy Chairperson: I think we need to be courteous to each other. Even if we do not like each other, we should be able to live with each other. That is what civilisation and democracy demands of us.

You may continue, please.

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Member: Under five!

Mr Ntundu: Everyone has an opportunity to debate. So, please, give me time to debate.  I am protected by the Chair.

Mr Chairperson, with due respect, we do accord the Republican President all the respect that he deserves. There is not a single hon. Member of Parliament who does not respect the President. We respect him very much.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, do not do that, hon. Member. You are the one who spoke in a particular manner and the Chair responded to what you said. If you respect the President, then show it by the words you use when talking about him.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, we are worried about the feeder roads in our province. The road equipment that has been allocated to the Southern Province has not done the work. In Gwembe, only a distance of about 31km has been worked on. I wonder whether the Government follows up what happens in provincial headquarters.

Mr Chairperson, we want the Government to follow up on the use of the road equipment. We appreciate the effort that it has put in, but we would like it to follow up on its efforts.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the issue of dams, I realise that the allocation is for four dams only in the whole country. The Government has been saying that it puts emphasis on agriculture. I wonder if I can concur with that assertion when the Government can allocate money to only four dams countrywide. The Government must take a look at the issue of dams because it is important.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Gwembe, who were displaced during the construction of Lake Kariba, live on hills and have no access to the water which they left behind. Therefore, we expect the Government to take care of them.

Sir, I am aware that K50 billion has been allocated towards the construction of the Bottom Road. However, we will wait and see what the Government will do as regards the Bottom Road.

Sir, I have always debated in this House that the Government should take time to look at the importance of the Bottom Road. At one time, there was a good hon. Minister in the Ministry of Works and Supply who came to Gwembe to look at the Bottom Road. It is impassable. It is actually not a road worth talking about. You can imagine what opportunity you are missing by not working on that road. You are missing a great opportunity by not working on the Bottom Road.

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister responds to our concerns, I would like him to tell us when the works on the Bottom Road will commence. I would also like him to talk about when the equipment to work on the roads will be sent to Gwembe.

Sir, as regards the issue of boreholes, I visited the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development and I want to assure you that the policy that has been put in place at this ministry to ensure that every Zambian accesses water is so good that we would like it to be implemented. It is a good policy, but questions arise as regards its implementation. Can you implement the policy?

Sir, on the issue of accommodation in the Southern Province, you would be ashamed of the way the police live in Gwembe. They have no houses. At the moment, I have offered my personal accommodation to the police.

Please, understand that something needs to be done about this. Let us make priorities. We do not want the Government to prioritise the issue of funding hooligans because we would like to see that money directed towards the construction of houses for the police and nurses. It is a pity that the President and Vice-President have never visited Gwembe District. Please, I am extending an invitation to them to come to Gwembe …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: … and see what is needed in the area. The Vice-President and Minister of Justice should not come with a chopper, but should come driving so …

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: … that he can see for himself how bad the road network is in the area. The Gwembe/Chisekesi Road is in a deplorable state. I wonder who inspects these roads. Is it that someone is not doing their job? What is happening? Hon. Minister, when you come to respond to our sentiments, remember the question that was put on the Floor of this House concerning the Gwembe/Chisekesi Road. We would like to know when this road will be worked on. What plans have been put in place to ensure that this road is resurfaced? Why has Gwembe District been neglected? If you want to keep neglecting us, then allow us to be part of Zimbabwe because we are nearer it. We can detach ourselves from Zambia and join Zimbabwe, …

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: … if that is what the Government wants.

Hon. Government Member: Is that a better way of debating?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, while the freedom to debate is guaranteed, there are limits. Any statements that seem to incite sectionalism are unconstitutional and must be avoided. Hon. Members ought to know that because it is part of the basic rules.

May you continue, please.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Hon. Minister, when you come to respond, we would like you to tell us when the Gwembe/Chisekesi Road will be worked on. When are the graders coming to Gwembe? What are the Government’s intentions regarding the people who were displaced during the construction of the Kariba Dam? These questions should be responded to because we would like to know what the Government will do for the people of Gwembe.

It is important for the people in the Government to listen to us. In fact, they are lucky because we are their eyes. They should not view us as their enemies. I know who their enemy is. There is a certain newspaper which is an enemy of all the people in the nation.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: This is not a joke. We are as fierce as lightening and if we want to strike, we can strike in a single minute. The last time I debated in this House about a certain newspaper which has continued to be an enemy of the people …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr V. Mwale: Mulekeni akambe!

The Deputy Chairperson: I think we have tried to listen to the hon. Member concerning this newspaper that he has a bone to chew with but, I think, it is becoming a little too much. The hon. Member should find a way of presenting points that relate to the debate on the Floor.

May he continue, please.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Finally, I would like to say that the people of Southern Province need their interests to be protected. That protection can only come through us. This protection needs to be enjoyed by all parties in Zambia including, my own party, the United Party for National Development (UPND). Therefore, we need protection from both the media and Government. When we notice that the protection is missing somewhere, we have to talk about it.

Mr Chazangwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: This will help all Zambians to realise that if you have a small brain, people will read your mind before you say anything. As a result, we are able to tell what certain newspapers are able to say the day before publication.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: In Gwembe, there is a saying that goes, “When we want to strike, we can strike like lightening”, but the only reason we do not want to strike is that we respect human beings”. If it were not for that, we would have struck a long time ago.

Lastly, let me take this opportunity to warn the Government …

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: … that if it does not do what the people of Gwembe District want, it should forget about getting a single vote from that area in 2011. This MMD Government will not win the 2011 Elections. It will lose the elections and the Opposition will get into Government and give Zambians what they deserve.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kawandami (Chifubu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor of the House.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I want to comment on the issue of the fertiliser distribution exercise on the Copperbelt. Most co-operatives on the Copperbelt have received fertiliser, but failed to distribute it on time to the people. If this fertiliser is not distributed to the farmers, are we going to have another bumper harvest? Therefore, I am requesting the hon. Minister to intervene and ensure that the fertiliser is distributed to the farmers as quickly as possible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: Secondly, I would like to talk about the city of Ndola. The city of Ndola was a hub of the Copperbelt and everybody, including very highly rated officials in this House know about that. In Bemba we say, “Akabushi kasengula apo kekele”. This entails that these big officials must ensure they leave something tangible for residents of that city.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: The people of the Copperbelt depended on the city of Ndola for their supplies. The entire country benefited a lot from what was being produced in Ndola.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kawandami: Today, if you go to the industrial area of Ndola, you will cry because of what you will see.

Mr Mukanga: Very bad!

Mrs Kawandami: It is a sorry sight.

The industrial sector in Ndola has collapsed. We had factories that used to produce medicines, clothing materials and all sorts of products in Ndola. We had Johnson and Johnson as well as Dunlop, which used to make car tyres, Colgate Palmolive, Refined Oil Products (ROP) and Gamma Pharmaceuticals, which used to make medicines for our hospitals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, what has happened in Ndola has affected the whole province. The men in Ndola are found under trees playing what we call Insolo in Bemba.

Hon. Government Members: Bemba men!

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Ms Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, the collapse of the industries in Ndola has led to a lot of marriage break ups.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: Sir, this is because most of the men are unemployed. As a result, the women are by the roadsides, selling tomatoes and cabbage up to midnight. Now, is that the kind of situation we want to create in this country?

Interruptions

Ms Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, Ndola Central Hospital has not been spared. There is no water for the patients at this hospital. Water is ferried into the hospital by care givers in containers. Are we going to allow that situation to continue?

Hon. PF Members: No!

Ms Kawandami: This water problem has not only affected the hospital, but also the entire Ndola City. The pumps that we have at Kafubu Water Works keep breaking down. The pumps were fitted, maybe, fifty years ago and they keep breaking down. As a result, there is just a trickle of water going to the households. That is why you see people in Ndola voting otherwise ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: … because they are suffering and they feel there is a need to change the Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Kuya bebele!

Ms Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, urge the ministry to find money to revamp the water utility companies.

Sir, I now want to talk about the roads in Ndola. I remember, a few years ago, people saying that they would give us better roads, but this has not happened. Through the years, the roads have deteriorated and worsened. As referred to by the earlier debaters, I think, with this rainy season, the road to Mufulira will be impassable. The closure of the mines along Mufu Road is unfortunate because those mines used to maintain about 21 km of that road.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: Sir, as you know very well, these mines have been closed and have since moved to Kansanshi Mine. The result of this has been disastrous because I do not know what road the farmers along that road will use to ferry their produce because they will be completely cut off.

Mr Chairperson, Kaniki is part of Chifubu Constituency, but if you want to go to Chifubu from Kaniki, you will have to come into town to the Ndola Central Hospital roundabout and then drive up, and yet, we can have a shortcut from Kaniki directly into Chifubu, where the markets are so that these farmers on Mufu Road can easily transport their produce there.

Mr Chairperson, talking about markets, we have two big markets in Ndola. These are Masala and Chifubu and they are in a dilapidated state. With these rains, we can foresee an outbreak of cholera because there are many potholes in which pools of water can collect in that market. The people of Chifubu, Masala and Kabushi deserve better treatment than what they are receiving at the moment. I, therefore, urge the Government to make sure that something is done about Ndola District.

Mr Chairperson, I have been listening to a lot of debates on finances and Ndola has been left out. There is just Kabushi that is benefiting through the construction of a clinic, but most of the developments that we are getting in Chifubu and Ndola are initiated through the CDF.

Interruptions

Ms Kawandami: Yes, that money is from the Government, but we need a bigger share of it for us to progress.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kawandami: Sir, in Chifubu, there is only one secondary school and I keep talking about this. Chifubu needs an additional secondary school. What is called Chifubu Secondary School is actually in Ndola Central. Therefore, we demand to be given another secondary school because it is our right to have one.

Sir, it is also our right to have more medical facilities such as ambulances in Chifubu because people are ferried to hospitals on bicycles. I recall, before I became Member of Parliament, that I used to ferry people to seek medical attention in my car. This is because we only have one ambulance for the whole district and this cannot cater for all the patients. This is not fair. I think we deserve more than that.

Sir, I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to fund the Copperbelt Province adequately. The hon. Minister is listening and I want to tell him now that I have come and I expect to work with him in the development of that city, Ndola.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson. 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Vote on the Floor, I have very few observations on which to make comments.

Sir, the provincial allocation is welcome but, firstly, I would like to look at the monies which were allocated to the ‘loads’ last year. We had about eight ‘loads’ which were supposed to be …

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Roads!

Mr Kamondo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for that correction. I would like to talk about roads.

Mr D. Mwila: Nabomfwa!

Laughter

Mr Kamondo: Eight roads were allocated funds, but only two out of these were worked on.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Kamondo: Sir, the people of North-Western Province were very happy that the funds were allocated. However, what is surprising is that, despite having allocated this money, only two roads were worked on. This means that out of the K5.469 billion, only K800 million was used. Now, the question is: Where is the rest of the money, like another hon. Member also inquired?

Mr Chairperson, in the 2011 Budget, about fourteen roads have been budgeted for. The question that the people of North-Western Province are asking is: Are you, as a Government, going to work on these roads or you are going to disappoint them the same way you did this year? It is better not to budget for something if you do not have the money. When you allocate these funds, you should make sure that whatever you promise …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Kamondo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about the amount of money allocated for the rehabilitation of roads in the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, I said that eight roads were supposed to have been worked on, but only two were. Out of a sum of K5.4 billion that was allocated, less than K1 billion was spent. In the Yellow Book, there is an allocation for works on fourteen ‘loads’. Out of the fourteen ‘loads’ …

Hon. MMD Members: Roads!

Mr Kamondo: Roads.

Hon. MMD Members: Yes!

Mr Kamondo: Mr Chairperson, if, out of eight roads, we only managed to work on two, how will this Government convince the people of North-Western Province that it will work on all the fourteen roads?

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: I would like to implore this Government to fulfill the promises it makes so that the people trust that it is a working Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: I do not know who could be bringing problems to the North-Western Province. I know that many people have spoken about how the people of North-Western Province have been neglected and taken for granted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: Even when slapped, the people of North-Western Province cannot react. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: The people of this province, as I said earlier, believe in muzungu wabula kajo kumusebenzele ne.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. MMD Members: Meaning?

Mr Kamondo: Meaning that you should not work for an employer who does not have food.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Kamondo: This is very important in our culture because we believe in action. I would like to urge the Government to work on these roads if it wants a vote from the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, my other observation is on labour-based road works. I would like to encourage the Government to support local small-scale constructors by giving them contracts. This is very important, as it will provide employment for the local people. At the end of the day, people will look after the roads well because they would have constructed them. 

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: They will not blame anyone for the funds that have not been utilised fully. I would like the Government to involve local small-scale constructors to work on the roads that have been suggested for the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, it was disappointing that the Government allocated a huge sum of K950 million to Mufumbwe District for the construction of a road from Kalengwa to Kabipopo. The contract was terminated because of non-performance and this money is no longer available. What have we done for the people of Mufumbwe? How will the people of Mufumbwe trust this Government?

Mr D. Mwila: No way!

Mr Kamondo: The Government may have done a good job of allocating this money, but why terminate a contract and not find another contractor to complete the works?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Simple logic!

Mr Kamondo: This is quite touching.

Who are we supposed to blame? Who should have worked on this road?

Hon. Opposition Member: Malukula!

Mr Kamondo: Has this road been worked on or is the Government just telling the people that the road was worked on when it was not? These are questions that need to be answered. The best is for us to use local contractors because they will be responsible for these roads and they will do a good job. If they fail to do a good job, they will be taken to book and it will be very easy to find them as they are within a given constituency. 

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about certain roads that have been abandoned for sometime. We have the Kalulushi/Kalengwa Road that needs to be worked on as it has not been worked on for over ten years. No one has paid any attention to it. I want this Government to know that we appreciate the M-8 Road. However, I would like to mention that this road needs to be taken care of if we do not want it to have potholes within a short period of time. 

Mr Chairperson, since we do not have a weigh bridge from Kabompo to Solwezi, the best thing we can do is …

Mr D. Mwila: Landa!

Mr Kamondo: … introduce mobile weigh bridges so that people who are transporting timber from rural areas can also contribute to the National Treasury because, most of the time, these trucks are overloaded, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: … hence contributing to the damage on our roads.

Mr Chairperson, there is no weigh bridge from Zambezi to Solwezi. The situation is the same for the Western Province as well. There is a lot of timber being transported from Kaoma to Lusaka and these trucks do not even pass through a weigh bridge. There is, therefore, a need for us to have mobile weigh bridges so that we can weigh these trucks and, in the process, contribute to the National Treasury. 

Mr Chairperson, in the North-Western Province, we have minerals and good soils. We have almost everything. It is no wonder people are saying that it is the new Copperbelt. However, the money that we have been given for bee-keeping development is not enough. The North-Western Province has the capacity to produce sufficient honey for this country. However, as Hon. Chizhyuka said, our forest is endangered. People are still using old methods …

Mr Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

 Mr Kamondo: … to harvest honey. To avoid this, I would have loved this Government to allocate enough money to train bee-keeping farmers to use new methods so that trees are protected from destruction.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: Sir, I would like to talk about Mufumbwe Hospital. I have always said that the construction of Mufumbwe Hospital is a good project. Therefore, I am appealing to this Government to do something because, to date, the people of Mufumbwe are still referring their patients to Kasempa. I would like to appeal to this Government to immediately send theatre equipment and other supporting equipment so that this hospital can start operating. Despite having done this, the hospital is just there by name and we are still referring the people to Kasempa which is 168 km away.

Sir, I would also like to tell this Government that those who went to Mufumbwe during the by-election saw that we do not have a police post.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamondo: Police officers in Mufumbwe do not have accommodation. One would wonder whether Mufumbwe is a district or just a village.

With these few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala):    Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this debate.

Sir, let me start by sympathising with some hon. Members of Parliament who, out of ignorance, promised their people heaven on earth when they were campaigning to be elected to this House.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Now reality has caught up and they have realised that in this House or, indeed, in Government, there is no bag of money that waits to be taken to constituencies.

 Laughter

Ms Namugala: Whatever money this Government has is from the taxes that it collects from the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I sympathise with the hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition because they are all crying for development in their constituencies, and yet most of them and their presidents condemn investors both domestic and foreign.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, until we, as Zambians, all work harder and talk less, we will not do all that we want to do. I would like to encourage the hon. Members from the Opposition to talk less, read more and come up with ways to increase our revenue collection. We also need to ensure that we become a better investment destination instead of scaring away investors.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, when it comes to the Northern Province and I say so because I come from there, so much has been done.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, to start with, let me tell you that at the doorsteps of the hon. Member for Chinsali, the Mulakupikwa College that was abandoned by his president is being worked on.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, in the Northern Province, boreholes are being sunk, schools are being built and youth skills training centres are being built by this hardworking Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

A point of order is raised.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, if you have checked my records, I have never risen on a point of order since I came to this House.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ask your question.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister, who is debating now, in order to mention my name, when I have been seated here quietly listening to her poor debate? Is she also in order to say that my president abandoned the project in Chinsali when, at the time the project was abandoned, it was President Chiluba and not Mr Michael Chilufya Sata who was President? In fact, that project started at the time of Kaunda. Is she in order to mislead the people out there? I need your serious ruling.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

First of all, I have made a ruling that Heads of State must be given decorum. Dr Kaunda was President of our country. You cannot, therefore, refer to him just as Kaunda. What is happening to our country if we, as hon. Members of Parliament, start to address people in that manner?

Secondly, the hon. Member who has raised a point of order specifically mentioned the hon. Ministers from the Northern Province. It is their time to respond. It may not be very nice to hear what they are saying, but you have to listen.

May she continue.

Hon. Government Member: Hammer!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your protection.

Sir, when campaigning, some hon. Members of Parliament say that they are going to give their constituency everything it wants, but when reality hits like it has hit now, it is clear that that the Government does not operate like that.

Mr Munaile: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munaile: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister debating is not the Provincial Minister. We are debating provinces, therefore, I would like to believe that His Honour the Vice-President who gave a statement is the one who is supposed to respond. May you, please, guide me so that I know whether what is being done is procedural? I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, first and foremost, all of us here are hon. Members of Parliament, hon. Ministers included.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Secondly, she is talking about her province, generally, as a Minister. She is not winding up the debate. Hon. Members, let me also say that if these kinds of points of order continue, I will not listen to any because they are just disrupting debate.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the truth of the matter is that this hardworking Government has worked so hard and is coming back next year.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Therefore, those who are crying foul now are worried because they are not coming back.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, in fact, they are so derailed that some of them do not even know where to stand and where to go.

Mr Chairperson, if you go to the Northern Province, you will find unprecedented development taking place. In my own constituency, for the first time, we are going to have a tarred road linking the Northern Province with the Eastern Province.

 Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, if this is not development then, I do not know what development is because, in my constituency and several other constituencies in Northern Province, there are high schools that are being built by this hardworking Government. There are clinics that are being developed by this hardworking Government. We are giving opportunities to youths to have training. While I sympathise with those who are outside the Government, I want to invite them to work with us so that, maybe, some of them can come back to this House.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to say that, in this country, there are some politicians who have been on the stage ever since 1959. All they have done is talk. They were there when there were shortages of essential commodities in this country, when Zambians used to queue for cooking oil and other commodities. They used to queue for everything. They were there as the champions.

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Now, Mr Chairperson, they are saying …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Imwe, lekani timiciteko attack naife!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, there is only one person debating. What is quite interesting is that there is a lot of joy when one side of the House is attacked …

Hon. Members: Ehe!

The Deputy Chairperson: … and there is a lot of outrage when the others respond. Let us be open-minded and listen to both sides of the debate. That is what democracy is.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair feels very unhappy that it has to stop the hon. Member who is debating simply to quell the outrage at the debate.

May I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Members to, please, listen to the hon. Minister debating and, if their turn comes, they will debate and also respond. That is what democracy is all about.

May she continue, please?

Mr Sikazwe: Hammer, hon. Minister!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members of Parliament, we must accept when development is taking place. Development is taking place under the able leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah …

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am not going to allow you to raise a point of order because you were talking across the Floor. You were shouting. If you want to raise a point of order, you simply stand up. You have already debated, Hon. Muyanda, without being given authority to stand. What sort of a point of order am I going to give you now?

May the hon. Minister continue?

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, this country is enjoying economic growth ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … as a result of the policies of this Government and the able leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Unfortunately, it hurts when some people want somebody to fail, but he/she succeeds.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: The President is succeeding …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … even against all odds. Our food reserves have gone up, we have a bumper harvest and the people of Zambia are happy with the leadership of this President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: The people of Northern Province are seeing unprecedented development. The Kasaba Bay area is going to provide more than 3,000 jobs to the people of Northern Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, we are growing tourism in rural areas where the poverty levels are highest. We are moving forward, as a Government, and it is important that our colleagues on your left accept this fact because their constituents have already accepted, turned round and are not going with them any more. They are going with this Government.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I wish to thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Estimates of Expenditure for the Central Province.

Sir, I wish to say that the people of Central Province are proud that, in the recent past, they had a Head of State who came from that area and I am also happy to say that this Government has given us a Vice-President who comes from the Central Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: My brother is saying, “Hear, hear!”

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Go ahead! Continue!

Mr Shakafuswa: … the people of Central Province understand that the purse is small and that is why there are deficiencies in some areas. Nevertheless, I am glad to hear about the good works done by this Government which have just been propounded by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. I wonder if the hon. Minister for the Northern Province will have anything to say because the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has ably debated the Northern Province. I hope, Mr Chairperson, you will use your discretion to skip him because she has said it all.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Sir, the Central Province is a vast area with varied terrains. Like all parts of the country, we have had our share of the Government’s cake, but we should agree that it is inadequate for our people. However, when we stand here to debate, let us not cheat ourselves. We know that the Government is working within its budget, but the demand out there for our people is so huge that anyone cannot be happy with what our people have on the plate today. We can just cherish our attempts and what we have done so far, but the demand for services out there is enormous. So, let us not cheat ourselves.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The word ‘cheat’ is unparliamentary. Can you withdraw it and substitute it with another word?

Mr Shakafuswa: I withdraw the word ‘cheat’ and substitute it with the word ‘mislead’. We should not mislead ourselves. As much as we, on this side of the House, are under the able leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, we appreciate what we have done so far. The fact still remains, as the hon. Minister said, that the resource envelope is too small.

For example, in Katuba Constituency, as much as I appreciate the construction of Moomba High School at K27 billion, I wish to sadly say that there is no secondary school in Katuba. The whole of Katuba Constituency has no secondary school. Unlike Katuba, Keembe Constituency has a secondary school that is situated very far from Katuba. As a result, the people bordering this constituency have no high school or secondary school. We are talking of a radius of about over 50 km.
 
Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: If we put together the works that His Excellency the President, Dr Kaunda, His Excellency the President, Dr Chiluba, and the late President, Dr Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, did, they are still inadequate to alleviate the sufferings of the people. This is a fact that no one can run away from.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

Mr Shakafuswa: I am happy that I come from Chibombo and I am grateful for what the Government is doing in this area, particularly working on the road from the Landless Corner to Mumbwa. Unfortunately, very few people in the constituency use this road. As much as I appreciate what the Government has done on this road, most of the roads in my constituency have not been worked on. Most of the roads in Keembe and Chisamba constituencies have also not been graded.

Mr Muntanga: Sure!

Mr Shakafuswa: In Chisamba Constituency, only about less than 10 km of road have been graded this year. The roads have been graded on one side and we are now in the rainy season. By January, if the roads are not completed, it will be difficult to grade them and there will be nothing to show for it.

Mr Muntanga: Ooh!

Mr Shakafuswa: There will be nothing to show for it.

The question still remains that the resource envelope is small and the demands of our people are big.

As the hon. Member of Parliament for Chifubu said, we are proud of this Government for having distributed the farming inputs on time. In spite of this good move, the people of Katuba, Chisamba and Keembe have been sleeping in Chisamba for the past one week, waiting to collect their inputs.

Mr Muntanga: For what?

Mr Shakafuswa: The problem is that the whole district is using one bank and this has brought inefficiency. The officers are taking long to issue the people with forms to fill in for them to get their inputs. At the moment, there are people who have been sleeping there for a week. Sir, I appeal to the hon. Minister for Central Province to find a remedy to this problem so that the hard work of the Government is not seen to go to waste.

This year, the Government is not subsidising transport. Therefore, farmers who live near Chongwe have to go to Keembe to get their inputs from the depot. This means the transportation cost will be incurred by the farmers. If one has to transport any commodity from Keembe, he/she has to come to Lusaka then go to Chongwe, Kanakantapa, which is in Chisamba Constituency. With all these transport costs incurred, it will be the same as buying fertiliser at K180,000 a bag. As a result, the good works of the Government are being eroded by such inefficiencies. I hope that this will be seriously looked into.

We are happy that the Government has so far got something to show in Serenje District on the works the RRU has done. It has done a lot of good work and it is only proper that, in Serenje, where His Honour the Vice President and Minister of Justice comes from, we have good roads. As people who made sure that the Government comes into power, we want many kilometres of our roads worked on. I do not know how many kilometres have been worked on there, but I am proud to say that in Katuba we will be working on one road. I am grateful for this. I hope that each constituency will have the same amount of kilometres of road worked on because that is the only way we are going to say our Government is working.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Hon. Members, we are going into election time and I would urge you to desist from being petty. A Member of Parliament does not bring about development.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: You should never cheat yourself on this one. Go there and tell the people that you will solicit for development from the Government.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, the word ‘cheat’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hon. Members should not mislead themselves. When I go to my constituency, I laugh at the small people aspiring to be Members of Parliament who are saying they will reduce poverty.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Some are saying, they will work on all the roads. They must be very rich. Do not be misled by such smallness because those are just looking for jobs and most of them are failures.

Mr Chairperson, a Member of Parliament can only solicit for development and follow up on this, but the Government has a system of doing things. As a district, we have an input on what we want in the Fifth National Development Plan. In the Sixth National Development Plan, the Executive has the responsibility of providing resources and so someone should not say that you gave promises and you have not delivered. Just tell them that they do not know what they are talking about. You cannot use your money whilst the Government is using its resources.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that it is the Government which is supposed to deliver development to the people.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: I would like to point out that the Government’s effectiveness will be measured by how many lives of people have been uplifted.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Some hon. Ministers boast of working because they have diverted funds. They have not done anything because they are just stealing from the people of this country. You cannot be a Minister who is selfish and just wants development …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Shakafuswa: Or you are …

Mr Chota: Pinching!

Mr Shakafuswa: … pinching.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It does not change anything. You can use another word.

Mr Shakafuswa: You are diverting resources. As someone mentioned, we should ask for equitable distribution of resources. This country does not belong to whoever is ruling it today. What I like about the Head of State is that he is not only taking development to the Eastern Province, but also the entire country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: I have seen that when he goes to the Eastern Province and says he would like a school to be built, when he goes for a caucus, he will give the opportunity for a school to be built in Katuba instead.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members, we should accept the leadership of His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, but just find a way of petitioning him and asking him for development so that he feels he is the chosen one. Here we should not be talking about other presidents because they are small.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: At the moment, the President of the Republic of Zambia is His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Shakafuswa: So, as hon. Members, we should find time to petition him so that he brings development to our area. We should petition him so that he works together with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to release resources on time.

As much as we want new projects to start, they should not be priority projects. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing was unable to fund projects the whole year because of lack of funds. In my constituency, a tender for a road was given in February this year but, to date, the contractor has not moved on site because there is no money. When we say we are working, where are we working because even I would like to see where you are working?

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I am talking as Member of Parliament for Katuba and I want to see the work.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: I want to be the first one to say, the able Government of His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, is at work. I cannot go to Chibombo, at Landless Corner, because Hon. Shikapwasha will think that nifuna kubapyana – I want to replace him.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Central Province for his hard work. We are proud of your work. Using the little resources at your disposal, we have had cattle restocking and this has covered a lot of areas in my constituency. I also urge Hon. Chituwo to ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to release the CDF. From this money, I will commit K500 million to roads and that will make my uncle, Hon. Mulongoti, very proud of me. He has been advising us to use the CDF and I am going to commit that money to roads.

I would also like to mention that the people are happy to have Momba High School although it is along the road. From Momba High School to Kapopola, which is a stretch of 200 km, there is no secondary school or high school. You noticed when you came to Katuba that the roads are bad but do not worry because you can use a Government vehicle and it will be replaced whereas I have to dip in my pocket to replace my vehicle. So, we should work together to improve the roads in my constituency.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kasoko (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, let me start by giving a preamble. I have heard a number of hon. Ministers talking about projects which they have implemented in their constituencies because this is the second term of my coming to Parliament. The first five years, we had hon. Ministers on that side, who gave themselves projects two years before the 2006 elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: I am sure a lot of colleagues who were there in the first five years will remember that. Most of them lost elections …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: … even after implementing a lot of projects in their constituencies. One of them lost to the late Hon. Tetamashimba.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: He gave himself projects for six secondary schools in his constituency. Where is he now?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: He is gone.

Mr Kasoko: The Government came back, but a number of hon. Ministers lost their seats.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, the Central Province has been given K6 billion to carry out its developmental projects.

Hon. Opposition Member: Lupando Mwape.

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, K6 billion is not enough for the Central Province. I have gone through the Yellow Book and not seen any money allocated to the Central Province to buy school desks. Where is the money?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Where is the money?

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, three quarters of the schools in the Central Province have no desks, and yet we have only been given K6 billion. Where is the money?

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, for the provision of water, we have been given K17 million.

Mr Muntanga: Aah! One borehole!

Mr Kasoko: What is K17 million going to do in the Central Province? Where is the money?

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, we have a number of health centres in the Central Province, but most of them have no doctors and nurses. Other health centres have not been opened because we do not have nurses and other support staff to man them. When are we going to open these centres?

Mr Muntanga: Where is the hospital?

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, what is the problem? Does it mean that the Government has no money to pay the workers to man these hospitals? Where is the money …

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: … to pay the workers?

Mr Chairperson, in Mwembeshi Constituency, there is no secondary school just like in a number of constituencies in the Central Province. There are only a few constituencies with secondary and high schools. People from Nangoma and Mwembeshi go to either Mkushi or Mumbwa to access secondary school education.

Mr Muntanga: Ah, ah!

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, when is the Government going to build secondary schools? This Government has been in power for nineteen years without building enough schools. You are now in the final moments of the eleventh hour. When are you going to build the schools?

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the construction of dams. We have heard that in the Yellow Book there are only four dams which you are going to work on next year. You say that you are going to be working on four dams every year despite us having 150 constituencies. Are you serious or is that a good joke?

Mr Muyanda: Aah! It is a very bad joke.

Mr Kasoko: These are things we are going to use against you as we start campaigning.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, you have failed to win the support of the people of Mwembeshi when I did not even deliver for the first five years. Now, I have even grown roots in the constituency despite not doing much work.

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, come again with helicopters like the you did in 2006. You are not going to manage to uproot me.

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: If you want to uproot me, just bring development to my area.

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, you are not going to uproot me without bringing development to my constituency. By sidelining us and not giving us any development, you are not solving anything. The people will not support you because you are not giving them what they want.

Mr Chairperson, animal diseases in the Central Province have not been eradicated. Animals are still dying because of lack of dip tanks and clean water. We also do not have qualified veterinary officers. In most cases, the people who are acting as veterinary officers are cleaners. Experienced people are no longer offering their services and this Government knows about that. When are you giving us veterinary officers? Where is the money?

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, the last five years, I have seen many different faces in here and, together with them, we have been told that there is a lot of money which the Government was supposed to use for the construction of bridges. The then hon. Minister who was responsible for that task was dancing here and claiming that the Government was going to do everything possible in that regard …

Mr Muntanga: Which one?

Mr Kasoko: … but, to date, no bridges have been constructed in Mwembeshi, Nangoma or Mumbwa.

Mr Muntanga: Where is the money?

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, where has the money that we have been budgeting for the last five years been going?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Where is the money?

Mr Kasoko: When is that money going to be used to work on our bridges?

Mr Chairperson, in Nampundwe, we have constructed a mortuary and the Government is aware about that. Three years have gone by without the Government providing a door for this structure.

Mr Muntanga: A door.

Hon. Members: Aah! A door!

Mr Kasoko: Just a door for the mortuary.

Interruptions

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, when is the door to the mortuary going to be fitted?

Interruptions

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, we also need a new road. When you are coming from Mumbwa and want to go to the Southern Province, you have to pass through Lusaka. Why can the Government not create a road between Mumbwa and the Southern Province?

Major Chizhyuka: Then Namwala.

Mr Kasoko: It can either improve the Itezhi-tezhi/Namwala Road or, better still, one can use the road passing through Nangoma via Senior Chief Shakumbila’s palace then cross the Kafue River and finally reach Mazabuka. That is a shorter distance …

Major Chizhyuka: Yes.

Mr Kasoko: … than the one passing through Lusaka to Mazabuka. That distance is too long.

Interruptions

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, where is the money we keep apportioning year in and year out?

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Where do you take the money? We want that road because it will be a shortcut for the people of Mumbwa and those coming from Kasempa using Mumbwa Road. They do not have to go through Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, we have been told about the Rural Electrification Programme, which we have not seen in some areas in the Central Province apart from the small exercise which was conducted going to Nansanga. In Mumbwa, we have not seen anything as regards the Rural Electrification Programme. What has happened now is that we are using the CDF to pay for the connection of electricity to Government institutions. Even after one has paid, it takes a long time for power to be connected for reasons we do not know. Two years ago, we paid for three institutions and it took six months for the connection exercise to begin. We paid for four institutions using the 2009 CDF but, up to date, the institutions have not been connected.

Mr Muntanga: Oh no!

Mr Kasoko: What is happening? Where do you take the money we pay you as a Government?

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about irrigation. The first five years, we were told that irrigation projects were going to be introduced in all constituencies and districts. I have not seen any irrigation system in Mumbwa District. In Chibombo, the only places where there are irrigation systems are on commercial farms. Money was allocated for the installation of irrigation systems our peasant farmers but, to date, small-scale farmers have not been given this money. Where has the Government taken the money?

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to talk about Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company, which needs help from the Government. This company cannot manage to provide water reticulation services to the whole Central Province, from Serenje to Mumbwa. The lack of water, in many, areas has led to people starving. At the moment, nothing is being done to rectify this situation in places like Nangoma and Nampundwe.

Mr Chairperson, Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) worked with Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company to provide water at Nampundwe Mine, but there is no water to date. Whenever we report water problems, we are told stories. The Government should, therefore, come in and assist Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company the same way it is assisting the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company.

Mr Chairperson, finally, …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kasoko: … let me also comment on the KCM Nampundwe Division, which has not been reopened to date. I think it was the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development I heard, yesterday or the day before, saying that all the mines that had closed had been reopened. However, the KCM Nampundwe Division has not been reopened.

Interruptions

Mr Kasoko: I do not know why this is the case. My appeal to the hon. Minister is that if KCM has failed to run that mine, it should, please, find us an investor to reopen it and employ people in the area.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: When the mine is operational, even the small tuntembas also start running. At the moment, because the mine is on care and maintenance, even the market is not operating well because nobody can afford to buy anything from there.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the budget for Luapula Province. From the outset, I want to say that I am in support of this Vote. However, I want to make an appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice on one issue which we have not yet brought to his attention. This is the CDF for 2010. I think, tomorrow, we will be adjourning sine die and, therefore, we expect to get an answer from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice regarding this matter.

Mr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, as Back Benchers, our job is to advise the Government on where it is going wrong. Therefore, when we, as the Opposition talk, no one should cry foul. When advice is given, it is up to the one being advised to take it or leave it. That is the way advice works.

Mr Chairperson, since I am the first hon. Member of Parliament from Luapula to debate, my two colleagues will add on to where I will end. To start with, there is a leadership crisis in Luapula Province at both the district and provincial administration levels.

Mr Chairperson, I will not be ashamed to thank hon. Ministers like Hon. Musokotwane, Hon. Kaingu and Hon. Liato of the Western Province, who have really worked very hard for their province.  They have managed to get funds for the Mongu/Kalabo Road and that is a good job.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: I am sorry to disturb the debater. Is he in order to praise the Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, who is seated there quietly? I am saying so because when we praise him for Acting as Government Leader, others want to kill him. Is he in order to praise him now when others will be so jealous that the praise will put him in trouble?

The Deputy Chairperson: That point of order also contains the word ‘killing’ which is unparliamentary.

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have raised your point of order.

Hon. Members, let us also look at time. I know that, once in a while, we need to have a breath of fresh air. However, if we do not make progress today, tomorrow, we may have to be here until the following morning on Saturday. So, we will do well to reduce on the points of order and debate quickly.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, in short, the people of Luapula also need their share of the national cake. We are not against our friends for having been given money to work on the Mongu/Kalabo Road, but all that we are saying is that we also need our share. What is our representative doing? Hon. Kalombo Mwansa is there to represent the people of Luapula.

Hon. PF Members: Mwanawasa Bridge!

Mr D. Mwila: That is a fact and no one will forget Mr Levy Mwanawasa, SC. because he put up a bridge in Luapula. However, for the past five years, the MMD Government has not tarred any road in Luapula and that is a fact.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think this will go on for sometime. Hon. Members, we need to bear in mind that hon. Ministers are not appointed by the Executive to represent their provinces. They are supposed to be representing the entire country. If we ignore that fact, then we are creating regional hon. Ministers and it will undermine their work for the country. As you debate, please, take that into account and avoid doing that.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, all that I am saying is that, for the past five years, the MMD Government has not tarred any road in Luapula. There are Mansa/Luwingu, Kashikishi/Lunchinda, Munganga/Kawambwa, Kawambwa/Mporokoso, Mansa/Matanda and Kansanka/Milenge roads …

Mr Nkhata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What is the point of order, hon. Minister?

Mr Nkhata: Mr Chairperson is this hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating so well, in order not to tell the truth about the tarring of roads when I, personally, passed through the Tuta Road, which goes to Luapula? The Government is tarring the Tuta Road. Is he in order not to tell the truth that the road from Serenje to Mansa is being worked on? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order has been adequately debated.

May you continue.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, the Tuta Road was tarred by the UNIP Government. All that the MMD has been doing is patch up the road. That is why, Mr Chairperson, the people who tell the Government are friends. There will be elections next year. Therefore, if the Government is not informed, the people of Luapula will ask all these questions.

So, Mr Chairperson, I talked about the Mansa/Luwingu, Kashikishi/Luchinda, Mwenya/Mung’ang’a/Kawambwa, Kasanka/Milenge, Mansa/Matanda and the Kawambwa/Mporokoso and Chief Katuta Kampemba roads. All these roads need to be tarred. For the past five years, no road has been tarred. Going by the 2011 Budget, there is no road which will be tarred. Therefore, I ask what our colleagues are thinking about the people of Luapula Province. That is a question which I have left to them.

The other issue is on leadership. I think His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice will recall that all hon. Members from Luapula Province have raised the issue of leadership. Last year, the RRU was given K1.8 billion, but we do not know how this money was spent. We did not complain. This year, Luapula Province has been allocated K5 billion. There are two issues here. We have a situation where the Government has not released the money and where Government has released the money, Luapula Province has been given K5 billion. The provincial administration has failed to call for a meeting to explain to hon. Members from Luapula Province on how they have spent the money. We have raised questions in this House and they have not responded. What else do they expect? Actually, all hon. Members from Luapula Province wanted to petition His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice on why the money has been diverted.

Mr Chairperson, on page 1567, each constituency was allocated money for two roads to be worked on. Where has the provincial administration taken the money? We do not hate them, but we have to tell them the truth. The goodness of us, hon. Members from Luapula Province, is that we call a spade a spade. We tell the truth. Who is de-campaigning the MMD Government and the President? Is it me or your provincial leaders? Is it me or Hon. Chongo, Hon. Chimbaka or the provincial administration? This is a very serious matter. Who has the authority to divert the money when it is approved by Parliament? Where is the authority being drawn from? We have received our colleagues with both hands. We do not want to be tribal. Luapula Province is not a dumping place for people who cannot perform.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I also want to echo Hon. Kasongo’s sentiments. If our colleagues want to continue to be in Luapula, they have to deliver because the people of Luapula Province want development and we are not divided on this. We can be divided on party lines, but not on development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: On this point, no one will change us.

Mr Kasongo: That is true.

Mr D. Mwila: Even other colleagues will come and talk about this matter. The provincial administration must explain where it has taken the K5 billion.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer!

Hon. Government Member: Finally.

Mr Malama: Not finally.

Mr D. Mwila: There is also the issue of Mansa Batteries Company Limited, which I want to bring to the attention of His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice. This company left a lot of problems when it was closed. So, we expect the Government to move in so that all the employees who worked for this company can be paid.

Also, Mr Chairperson, through you, I would like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to look into the issue of the Mununshi Banana Scheme which has not been operational for quite some time. The Government should come in and revamp the company.

 

Mr Chairperson, finally, I appeal to the Government to look at the issue of roads seriously.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to speak last on the Vote for the North-Western Province.

I know my colleagues have already debated a few of the issues that affect the people of North-Western Province, but I will try and echo some of the sentiments already expressed.

Hon. Government Member: Do not!

Mr Katuka: Firstly, the issue of the Mumbwa/Kasempa Road is prominent on the agenda of the people of the North-Western Province. For me to get to Mwinilunga, I have to cover 1,000 km. However, if that road was tarred, I would take less than three hours to get to Mwinilunga. I want to echo the sentiments of Hon. Lumba that the Mumbwa /Kasempa Road must be tarred.

Secondly, I want to state that the North-Western Province is the second largest province in Zambia. However, apart from being the second largest in size, it is also the second poorest in the country, which is a sad thing.

Mr Chairperson, I am very skeptical about the talk about the North-Western Province being the next Copperbelt. I do not want to believe that what happened in the Copperbelt Province is what will happen in the North-Western Province. I say so because the Copperbelt was the first mining province in Zambia. However, other people came into the Copperbelt and the indigenous people of that area lost their identity and did not benefit anything from the mining activities. That is not what we expect in the North-Western Province. We know that the province is endowed with a lot of minerals and there are prospects of gas and oil, hence we want to see the people benefit from their God-given natural resources.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware of the few developments that are taking place such as infrastructure development and construction of a border post at Kipushi. This is a good movebut, I want to state that while those developments are appreciated, we need to look at the road because it will be impassable before the end of the year, considering that the North-Western Province is a high rainfall area.

Mr Chairperson, the border post will service the province well and provide income for the Government. There is a lot of activity at the Kipushi Border Post that would be second to Kasumbalesa. However, the bad state of the road will make it impossible to get as much as we would expect from that border post. Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister is that, while you construct that infrastructure, please, intervene on issue of the road to Kipushi.

I also want to comment on the issue of agriculture. While there has been a shift from growing traditional crops such as cassava, the Kaondes, like my hon. Minister there who has been growing mabele, have all started growing maize. In fact, we are doing very well in maize growing, but the marketing aspect is lacking. At the moment, more than fifty farmers are camped at the District Commissioner’s (DC) office in Mwinilunga demanding payment. They have not been paid and do not know when they will be paid. As a result, they have not sent their children to school and have not been able to buy agricultural inputs for this farming season. This is a problem that requires agent attention from the Government. The people have vowed not leave the DC’s office until they are paid. That is the state of affairs in Mwinilunga.  Therefore, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to intervene and ensure that the people are paid so that they leave the innocent DC who does not handle money alone.  As one of my colleagues said, people think that because the DCs are representatives of the Government, they have the capacity to do what they cannot. At the moment, the DC is in trouble. Can the hon. Minister, please, help him to sort out that problem so that the DC is free?

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I want to talk about is with regard to infrastructure at the Solwezi Airport. When I was Chairperson of Committee on Government Assurances, we were told that three airports were earmarked for rehabilitation. These were Livingstone, Solwezi and Kasama airports. I believe the Kasama and Livingstone airports have been worked on, but nothing has been done about the Solwezi Airport. Today, we are told that it will be worked on using private-public partnership (PPP). Why should the North-Western Province be an experiment for the new phenomenon of the PPP?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: We have been told that the Solwezi/Chingola Road will be worked on with the help of the PPP. Today, we are also informed that the airport will be worked on using the PPP. We are appealing to this Government to consider working on the Solwezi Airport using its resources. The PPP is a new phenomenon that has not worked before in this country. Therefore, not all institutions in our province should be put on the PPP arrangement because its success is not known.

We are appealing to the Government not rely on the PPP to work on the Solwezi Airport because of the investment that is taking place in the district. One of my colleagues talked about the coming up of a bigger mine than Lumwana. All those investors will need a bigger airport on which to land. I know that Proflight Airline is going to Solwezi now but Zambezi Airline stopped because of the poor state of the airport. We are appealing to the Government to consider uplifting the airport to international standards like what is happening at the Kasaba Bay Airport.

Mr Chairperson, let me also comment on the issue of electricity in the North-Western Province. Out of the seven districts in the province, only two are connected to the national grid. The other five districts are all generator-driven, and yet this is where the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development comes from. This is a shame.

Laughter

Mr Katuka: I am, therefore, appealing to the Government to consider constructing mini hydropower stations. I know that it is costly to put up power lines from Solwezi to Mwinilunga because it is over 400 km and 600 km from Solwezi to Zambezi. I know this because I come from that area. The province has abundant water resources and electricity comes from water. All we need to do is set up a lot of mini hydropower stations so that each district can be self sustainable in terms of power. That is what we expect the Government to do.

Lastly, but not the least, I would like to talk about the RRU. I believe every hon. Member who debated on this issue complained lamentably about the poor performance of the RRU. While it was the initiative of the Government to try and shake off all the excess baggage from the Ministry of Works and Supply by creating the RRUs, it seems that wherever they are, nothing is happening. We could see the fire that was coming from the hon. Minister of Works and Supply. That would not have been necessary if he had supervised the use of the equipment in the provinces properly.

Sir, when I asked a question regarding the RRU in my province on the Floor of this House, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply referred me to my Provincial Deputy Minister. Now, if the Provincial Deputy Minister does not have a definite programme regarding the use of the equipment, I do not see why the hon. Minister cannot intervene. He is the man in charge because all this equipment is under his ministry. Hon. Minister, you should find a way of responding to the cries of most hon. Members.

Mr Chairperson, when Hon. Chipungu was in the North-Western Province, he managed, to some extent, to give us a programme of works for that equipment. Every hon. Member knew when to expect the equipment to come to his area but, after Hon. Chipungu left, such an initiative has never happened. We are, therefore, appealing to the hon. Minister to intervene. You are the one in charge of that equipment. You should find time to see how that equipment is utilised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: Sir, in Luapula Province, the money for the roads was released and all the works have been done. In the North-Western Province, I do not know whether the money for the works has been released, but I am aware that no works have been done. It is, therefore, important that we intervene and see to it that this equipment does some works which will protect you from being attacked by hon. Members.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to appreciate that in this year’s Budget, I have seen that works on the Kamapanda/Chibwika Road have been given an allocation. That is an international road which leads to Angola. I also appreciate that the Mwinilunga/Jimbe Road will be worked on. Let it not be business as  usual where it appears in the Yellow Book, but works are not done. Since that is a very important road, I appeal that the money that has been allocated to it is released on time. The people of Kamapande or Mwinilunga have been suffering due to the poor road network. If you remember very well, there was a shooting incident along that road because of its deplorable state.

Sir, I would like to end my debate …

Interruptions

Mr Katuka: … by talking about the Ministry of Health. While we are appreciative and giving ourselves credit about what we have done through the Ministry of Health, I think the situation on the ground is pathetic. When you look at rural health centres in Mwinilunga, I do not see any pride in saying that we have a Government that is looking after these institutions. The centres are in a terrible state. Nothing is literally happening in those centres. When I was touring my constituency, people were pointing fingers at me and asking, “Where are the beds, mattresses and drugs?” There is completely nothing happening in the health centres. All our rural health centres are being manned by untrained people. The management at the district level, in Mwinilunga for example, has one ambulance which is under a project and is meant to carry pregnant mothers or patients with maternal related diseases. Thus, at the moment, Mwinilunga has no Government ambulance.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chituwo sent two land cruisers which were supposed to be converted into ambulances but, to date, I do not know how this will be done. The vehicles are now used as utility vehicles. I am appealing to the hon. Deputy Minister to look at the operations of the health centres in the province. I am aware that in the 2011 Budget for infrastructure development, Mwinilunga East has not been covered. There is completely nothing that has been reflected in the budget regarding works in Mwinilunga East. I do not know what your plan is. I am aware that submissions were made, but were dropped at some stage. I do not really know who did that and for what reason.

Sir, for the past four years, as a Government, we have not been able to perform well in terms of health service provision. You have been to Mwinilunga and have seen what I am talking about.  It is not a good story worth talking about. I hear people are now rushing to open up a rural mission hospital in the area, and yet this is something that has been talked about on the Floor of this House for the past fours years and you have not bothered until now.

Mr Chairperson, the President is under excessive pressure because he finds numerous problems wherever he goes. He starts doing what his. hon. Ministers should have done. He starts making promises to the people that a road, school or health centre will soon be constructed because the Executive is not helping him. If it was helping him, he would have been going to areas that have fewer problems or none at all.  This is why mining companies are working on one project in the whole province because the President is ashamed to see the state of infrastructure in these areas.

Mr Chairperson, I realise that Hon. Mulongoti does not want me to continue.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for Luapula Province. I will summarise my debate by highlighting just a few issues. 

Mr Chairperson, I have seen an upswing in the allocation for the Luapula Province from K31 billion to K35 billion. We may mourn that this increase is not much but, currently, what we are struggling with is the prudent use of even the little resources that we have. So, my appeal is not an increase in the allocation, but on the prudent use of the money even though it may seem little.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the development taking place in Luapula Province. I would like to state that I am grateful for the many hospitals that have been built. Currently, we have four hospitals under construction in Milenge, Samfya, Chienge and Mwense. I would like to appeal to this Government and the hon. Minister for the Luapula Province to immediately advertise the second phase of the construction of these hospitals since we started the first phase quite late so that, at least, by 2011, we should have completed the two phases. Equally, we have high schools under construction with Lukwesa almost being completed although it has taken a bit of time for the second phase to be implemented. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the non-availability of banking services in Luapula Province, particularly Mwense District where civil servants have to travel from Mwense to Mansa to access their salaries. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should look into this matter so that we can lessen the problems that they are facing. This also goes for the people of Milenge. 

Mr Chairperson, the people of the Luapula Province are grateful, also, for the K27 billion that has been allocated to start the fisheries programme in the province. I hope that this money will be apportioned to districts unlike the situation now where many projects are failing because they are being managed from the provinces. We want to, at least, decentralise these issues so that we can manage them because we understand what the people in the fisheries sector want. Projects drawn in other areas are very lean and we are not even sure who they are intended for. I am appealing that, as stakeholders, we are involved so that we can plan …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

______

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 26th November, 2010.