DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 23rd February, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

LUENA “KEEP ZAMBIA CLEAN CAMPAIGN”

204. Mr Milupi (Luena) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing why Luena Parliamentary Constituency was not provided with a motor vehicle under the “Keep Zambia Clean” Campaign.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Muteteka): Mr Speaker, I wish to report to this august House that the Government remitted a sum of K180 million to Mongu Municipal Council on 5th December, 2007 for the purchase of the “Keep Zambia Clean” Campaign vehicles for the three constituencies, namely Luena, Mongu Central and Nalikwanda. The Toyota Hilux Registration No. GRZ 645 CA was bought by Mongu Municipal Council for Luena Constituency. The “Keep Zambia Clean” Campaign vehicles are in the custody of the local authorities and not the individual constituencies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister recognise that because the vehicles are not in the specific constituencies that, in effect, disadvantages constituencies, especially rural constituencies? Would the hon. Minister care to comment on why his ministry is disadvantaging constituencies with regard to the “Keep Zambia Clean” Campaign vehicles and hearses which are, again, not in use in rural constituencies like Luena.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, the ministry is in no way disadvantaging rural constituencies. The reason for that is that, for example, when Mongu Municipal Council meets, the councillors there are urged to make a programme under the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy” Programme. If they have a programme in place, the vehicles then have to be used according to that programme rather utilising them on an ad hoc basis. So, my advice is that when the hon. Members attend council meetings and this issue is tabled, a comprehensive programme will assist the councils to ensure that these vehicles are utilised in the constituencies. Later on, our plan is to, maybe, have a legal framework that will streamline the utilisation of the vehicles at the constituency level.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, it has now come to light that most of the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign” vehicles are two-wheel drive (2WD) and they are not suitable for the intention they were purchased for. I wish to find out from the hon. Minister why this was allowed and what is going to be done to address the situation.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the funds available at the time could only enable us purchase this type of vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to give a straight answer. I will not go into the technicalities of the vehicles but would like to know why the three vehicles cannot be stationed in Mbabala and Pemba for maximum utilisation and cost cutting because Pemba is 60 km away from Choma? When we need a vehicle, it has to be driven 60 km to Pemba. Why can they not be at the sub-centres? Has the Government employed incompetent personnel at the various centres? Is this the reason you keep them in Choma? I want a straight answer.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I had hoped that the hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba was listening when I was explaining because he has asked the same question which I answered a short while ago. When you make a programme yourselves in the district, you will see that you can utilise these vehicles to the maximum because they will be engaged in your constituencies for the programmes that you have drawn up. In future, if there is close supervision in the constituencies, I see no reason these vehicles cannot be in the constituencies. The best way is to decentralise the vehicles and you can have them in the constituency fully when there is a programme drawn out rather than on an ad hoc basis.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena draws up a programme and the vehicle that is currently present is not a 4WD, how will it be utilised in Luena? Further, why is Luena not given a vehicle to be stationed in Limulunga when, in Lukulu, we have one right there at Lukulu East Centre?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, it is very clear that the terrain in Luena and also Lukulu is such that the vehicles will have limited use and I gave the reason this was so. As the budgetary allocation increases, certainly, appropriate models of vehicles for the terrain of, say Lukulu East, will be bought.
 
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, these vehicles have brought a lot of problems. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why they were bought because in certain councils like Ndola, they are personal-to-holder vehicles for the chief executives.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that instead of assisting in the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy campaign”, the vehicles have turned out to be used for what the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa has described. They are not intended to be personal-to-holder vehicles in Ndola or elsewhere. As I have said, let us take a keen interest when we visit our constituencies and see how these vehicles are used.

Mr Speaker, the programme under the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy” Campaign is well articulated in this booklet which has a second edition now. In this booklet, there are fourteen generic programmes that can be embarked upon not only by ministries but also the private sector. It is very comprehensive and, basically, one can find a way in which the vehicles in question can be used throughout the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, the Zambian people’s complaints over mobile hospitals went unheard. However, is the hon. Minister aware that only one vehicle is moving among those deployed to Lusaka under this programme?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, such a question is not helpful.

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: I say so because these vehicles have been handed over to the local councils to administer. Does the hon. Member for Mandevu expect me to now go and administer the use of the vehicles? The answer is no. It is the responsibility of the councils to ensure that the vehicles are up and running and serviced. If hon. Members of Parliament attended council meetings, surely, these are the issues they would discuss in the meetings.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, realising that the capacity to handle issues at the local Government level in Zambia has become a challenge, would the hon. Minister consider ensuring that the vehicles are managed at the constituency level although certain responsibilities can be left for the local Government such as servicing of the vehicles?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the purpose of the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy” Programme is to attend to the needs of communities at the constituency level. If there is a need to change how the programme is administered, then there is no problem because it is of no use holding on to the vehicles at the centres if the needs of the communities are elsewhere. As far as we are concerned, there is no problem with releasing the vehicles as long as there is capacity at the peripheral level or they are not turned into personal-to-holder vehicles again. So, we have no problem with that because it is purely an administrative matter and not that of policy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, the vehicles have raised a lot of controversy because of the ambiguity of the guidelines …

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Ask a question.

Mr Mushili: Will the ministry responsible write fresh and clear guidelines on how the vehicles should be used so that they do not remain personal-to-holder vehicles, particularly at the Ndola City Council?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, our doors are open. If we can have specific suggestions, certainly, our responsibility is to provide quality service to our people. I invite hon. Members, therefore, to write to us suggesting how best the vehicles can be used in order to eliminate the problems that are being discussed.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

NCZ TOTAL ASSET VALUE

205. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) what the total asset value of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) was as of 30th September, 2010;

(b) when a valuation of NCZ assets was last conducted; and

(c) whether there had been any increase in the value of assets.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, the total book value of NCZ assets as at 30th September, 2010 was K5,869,145,000. A valuation of NCZ assets has never been conducted since the time the plants were commissioned. The value of NCZ assets increased in 1995 when a new de-mineralised water plant was constructed whose book value was K1,762,968,729.93 as at 30th September, 2010.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, may I know when the Government will valuate NCZ because it has not been evaluated for a long time.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the Government has just finished conducting the due diligence studies. The report is with the ministry and we are studying it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, since the valuation of NCZ assets was last done in 1995, what action has the ministry taken since management has failed to evaluate the company for sixteen years now?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, in my response, I never said that the Government evaluated NCZ in 1995. I think the hon. Member should revise his question.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, the assets at NCZ, valued at K5.8 billion, are idle at the moment. If the Government is unable to …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I wish to apologise to you for disturbing your deliberations and, indeed, the hon. President who is on the Floor. However, I rise on a very serious point of order concerning a column in The Post No. 5241 on Wednesday, 23rd February, 2011 on page 18 entitled “From somewhere is cyberspace”, and I quote: 

“Dear Hon. Esther Banda, MP,

“You are the only MP in good standing with the PF who has been appointed to the Select Committee to scrutinise the appointment – or reappointment – by President Banda of Irene Mambilima as Chair of the ECZ.

“To establish the status quo, you as a committee would have to call as many witnesses as possible out of the following: Judge Florence Mumba …

“It might, though I doubt, be useful to have the Vice-President, George Kunda, who is alleged to have involved himself on his tribesman, Kalale’s behalf …

“I am sure you can think of some more yourself. Please try and ensure that the clerk of the committee has properly informed the media about its proceedings, and try to persuade the committee that as much of the proceedings, if not all, should be in the public domain.

“You are no doubt aware that the phrase ‘rubber stamp’ is an example of unparliamentary language. The best way to avoid inadvertently using it is to avoid acting like one. If you are unhappy about the direction things are taking, then stand your ground. If you think Judge Mambilima will be unable to ride the tiger that is the ECZ, for whatever reason, then give her the thumbs down. History will vindicate you.

“Yours in the struggle against gonga democracy,

“Guy Scott
Vice President.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, you have guided some of us who are senior hon. Members of this House ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: ... that there are laid-down procedures to be followed by this House. Why should the hon. Member suggest inviting witnesses to the Committee when the laid-down procedure demands privacy in some cases? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Sichilima laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs has raised a point of order with regard to what, in the profession, is known as an open letter from one hon. Member of Parliament to another hon. Member of Parliament on a matter that has been summarised by the hon. Deputy Minister.  From what the point of order contains, there could be several issues involved in the whole matter. There are times when I would rule that I firstly have to establish a prima facie case before I can take the matter any further. However, in this particular case, a prima facie case has already been established for me by the author of the open letter. As such, I hereby refer the point of order to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for consideration. This appears to be a straightforward matter which should be dealt with expeditiously since there is only one witness who is the author of the open letter himself.

The Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services will, without prejudice, determine the offence, if any, that the hon. Member for Lusaka Central may have committed. Again, without prejudice, the Committee will be free to determine the penalty or penalties or punishment, if any, that will be meted out on the hon. Member for Lusaka Central if he is found guilty. In accordance with the laid-down procedure, the Committee will bring its report here containing its observations and recommendations for the decision of the House.

The hon. Member for Luena may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, assets worth K5.8 billion are idle at NCZ. If this Government is unable to use them to manufacture cheap fertiliser for the agricultural industry, why should it not dispose of the plant?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, it is not right to say that the entire equipment at NCZ is lying idle because it produced 20,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser last year which was used by our farmers. As of now, arrangements have been made for NCZ to manufacture 15,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser. The Government will tell the public the way forward regarding NCZ after it finishes studying the report of the due diligence regarding the institution which has been completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Twalumba. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, in part (b)...

Mr Speaker: Order!

What has he done? He is simply asking a follow-up question.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, can I proceed?

Mr Speaker: Yes, you can proceed.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. When responding to part (b) of the question, ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: … the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that there has not been any evaluation of the NCZ plant since its commissioning. I would like to know what variables this Government may have taken into account when considering the disposal of the assets of NCZ in the past.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, it is true I said that no evaluation has taken place at NCZ. An evaluation could only be done if the Government had intentions of selling NCZ, but those intentions are not yet there. The ministry is still studying the document which I talked about earlier. Once this is done, we shall then start looking at the variables that can be used to evaluate the assets at NCZ. At the moment, we are still studying the due diligence report.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, asset evaluation is an accounting principle which is right. NCZ has been a source of growing concern every year. Therefore, it needs to undergo an evaluation process. The failure ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Can you ask your question?

Mr Matongo: Can the factory produce to the maximum with the current operational investments when it is functional and not dysfunctional? The hon. Deputy Minister should be precise in his answer.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the operations of NCZ can only be effected after the evaluation of which parts are supposed to be replaced or …

Mr Mbewe paused.

Hon. Opposition Member: What are you talking about?

Mr Kambwili: Tawishibe efyo ulelanda.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I stated earlier that the evaluation process has not yet taken place. We can only find out what parts of the equipment are required when production is initiated.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Member: Tom and Jerry!

HIGH SCHOOLS CONSTRUCTION

206. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Education when the Government would construct high schools at Lumwana West and Chibwika in Mwinilunga East Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the ministry is constructing a boarding high school in Mwinilunga District called Kanyama Boarding High School. However, due to limited budgetary provisions, the ministry will consider constructing day high schools using the community mode at Lumwana West and Chibwika in Mwinilunga East Parliamentary Constituency when funds are made available in the 2012 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Chibwika has more than ten basic schools and lies close to 100 km away from the nearest high school? How then do we expect the children in that area to access higher education in such circumstances?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I have already stated that we will construct day high schools in the two places next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know how much money has been set aside for the construction of high schools under the community mode this year.

Mr Speaker:  Does that question relate to Mwinilunga East Constituency? If not, then it is irrelevant. The hon. Minister may only answer the question that relates to Mwinilunga East.

Laughter

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, as I stated, Mwinilunga East Day High School will be budgeted for.

Sir, let me also take this opportunity to explain what we mean by day high schools. These are not boarding schools and pupils come from their homes daily to go to school. We have not yet budgeted for the school the hon. Member asked about, but will do so in the 2012 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

POLICY REVISION ON RECRUITED TEACHERS

207. Mrs Kawandami (Chifubu) asked the Minister of Education when the policy that requires newly- recruited teachers to remain in their station of first posting for two years, regardless of their marital status, will be reviewed.

Mr Sinyinda:  Mr Speaker, teachers are posted to schools where their services are needed and where the Provincial Management Education Committee (PMEC) vacancies are available. The policy is that once recruited, a teacher is entitled to a transfer, depending on the availability of a PMEC vacancy in the establishment.

However, serving for at least two years is not a policy but an administrative arrangement put in place to ensure that the schools are reasonably staffed with teachers.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Kawandami: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some teachers have taught for over four years in certain schools whilst married, but with their partners living in other provinces and that this is leading to break up of marriages?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, it is true that we have teachers in such circumstances but, as we have already stated, their transfer depends on the availability of vacancies on the payroll in the area where the teachers would like to be transferred. We employ teachers according to vacancies on the payroll and not just anyhow.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, are there intentions by the ministry to concentrate on enrolling people from the rural areas in colleges so that they can be sent back to the rural areas where they may not have difficulties settling in?

Mr Sinyinda:  Mr Speaker, we employ teachers according to the vacancies that are available in the various districts of our country. Therefore, if somebody applies to go to Mwense, for example, he/she is allowed to go there. We do not employ on the basis of where one comes from but the vacancies that are available in the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the administrative arrangement that causes newly-married teachers to live apart for up to two years is an abuse of human rights? Is the hon. Minister also aware that this causes married teachers living apart from their partners not to concentrate on their jobs, thereby lowering the quality of education in the country, particularly in the rural areas?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, when the Ministry of Education employs teachers, it is concerned about the people who come to look for jobs and these jobs are offered to them. For example, we will be providing over 7, 250 jobs this year for Zambian teachers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Ms Siliya: When these jobs are advertised, we have to take into consideration where the need is.  We have found out, in the last few years, that even though the national teacher/pupil ratio is not very bad, the distribution is very poor, particularly in rural areas. Therefore, when we employ, the priority is to offer more jobs in the rural areas because that is where the demand is. The establishment there is not full and there are vacancies on the payroll.

Mr Speaker, when teachers, or any Zambian for that matter, apply for jobs, they are aware that they will be posted to a particular place where there is a vacancy.

Sir, we recognise that people are married and that they want to live with their spouses. I am sure that there are many hon. Members of Parliament who have left their spouses behind because of a job. However, it is not possible for the Ministry of Education, with 84,000 teachers, to make a management decision based on people who do not work in the ministry.

Mr Speaker, when a spouse works for Airtel, Ministry of Home Affairs or Health and is transferred, it is not automatic that the Ministry of Education will make adjustments on its establishment to accommodate his/her partner. It is not possible and this is a challenge on the part of management.

Therefore, much as we, as a ministry, recognise that teachers may want to follow their spouses, we try to encourage them to give us time to discuss and ascertain whether there is actually a vacancy to be filled at the place where they wish to be posted.

Mr Speaker, because this was not being followed, for a long time, people were making transfers which were not approved by the headquarters. This caused another problem. It was discovered that many schools in rural areas had teachers appearing on the payroll when they were not there physically. So, this negatively impacts on the quality of education. Just to illustrate the point that the hon. Member for Luena raised, if a teacher’s name is appearing in Luena, but physically they are in Kabompo or Kitwe, it means the pupils in Luena will suffer.

We, therefore, have to monitor this and provide teachers where they are needed. When vacancies are available, we will not hesitate to transfer teachers. However, it is very important that people understand that we cannot always make decisions based on people who are not working in the ministry. It is very difficult for us to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has answered part of my question, but I would like to find out whether, in future, the ministry has plans to bond teachers for a period. As they apply, they definitely know that where they are going they may not be able to find a partner and, therefore, will be forced to move. Does the ministry have a policy to bond teachers so that they teach for sometime before seeking a transfer because some of these marriages are not genuine?

Sir, in my constituency, half the teachers are not at their schools because …

Mr Speaker: Order!

You have asked your question. Can the hon. Minister of Education reply to the question.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, the long-term solution is not for us to do as one hon. Member of Parliament suggested that we train teachers from rural areas and send them back to the rural areas because they can cope with life there better than other people.

Sir, I think that we are all Zambians and we must all be in a hurry to develop the rural areas. This is because what is making the teachers leave the rural areas is the lack of facilities such as electricity and other amenities. Therefore, it is important to be in a hurry to develop rural areas because that will be the long-term solution. This will ensure that teachers are spread out in the whole country so that none of them feels that they can only teach at a school in Chipata Boma and not beyond or Solwezi and not Chavuma.

Mr Speaker, the long-term solution is for us to ensure that we take development to the rural areas. This is what we, on this side of the House, are trying to do through infrastructure development.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, is there any consideration to introduce a marriage inconvenience allowance along the same lines as the rural hardship allowance. This way, we will motivate the affected teachers.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Next question!

Laughter

MISAKA FOREST RESERVE

208. Mrs Kawandami asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) when the Government would de-gazette the Misaka Forest Reserve in Chifubu Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) how many settlers were in the forest reserve.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Mr Speaker …

Mr Shakafuswa: Banamusansa teargas!

Laughter

Mr Mwangala: I have recovered today.

Laughter

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, Misaka National Forest Reserve No. F5 in Chifubu Parliamentary Constituency is 28,400 hectares. Of this, 24,150 hectares are under the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) plantations. My ministry has no immediate plans to completely de-gazette the forest because of the plantations.

However, my ministry has commenced the process of excising 4,250 hectares from the 28,400 hectares that have been encroached by settlers. A map indicating the part of the forest reserve to be excised has already been approved by the Surveyor General.

Sir, as at January, 2010, there were about 2,500 illegal settlers in the Misaka Forest Reserve.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kawandami: Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the hon. Minister has a programme set out to sensitise the people in this forest reserve as they keep encroaching the forest everyday.

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, as you have heard, as a ministry, we are busy as the process of planting trees is going on in our ministry. We will excise the area as well. I will go there immediately after this meeting of Parliament.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Lolela!

Laughter

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if the ministry is aware that the councillor for Kaniki Ward is receiving K150,000 from the residents which he claims is being used for surveying.

 

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, the ministry is not aware of that. Can the hon. Member report that to the police as it is a criminal offence?

Laughter

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that there was a total of about 2,500 illegal settlers in this area. I would like to know what plans the Government has to resettle these people as they normally increase in number and not decrease.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are in the process of de-gazetting 4,250 hectares of this forest reserve. The intention is to legally allocate this land to the settlers who are there through the Ministry of Lands.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just answered my question.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the vast land along the Ndola/Mufulira Road has been deforested. I would like to find out whether the Government has immediate intentions of afforesting the area in question.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are working very closely with the hon. Members of Parliament to ensure that we sensitise people to develop a culture of planting trees. I want to take this opportunity to appeal, yet again, to the members of the public, through the hon. Members of Parliament, to continue with this exercise of planting trees.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, the whole of the Copperbelt has been turned into a desert. What does the Government intend to do …

Interruptions

Mr Nsanda: You do not live there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nsanda: … when it cuts down all the trees in the Chichele Plantation? I believe that the policy should be to replant the trees. Therefore, what is the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources doing about this?

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, it is not true that the whole of the Copperbelt has been turned into a desert. I also want to say that the Copperbelt is largely dominated by hon. Members of Parliament from the Patriotic Front (PF).

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: I want to ask them to show some leadership qualities by ensuring that what is going on on the Copperbelt is reversed.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

GOVERNMENT TRAINING INSTITUTIONS

209. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Education how many teachers had graduated from Government training institutions in the following categories, but had not yet been employed as of 31st July, 2010:

(i) Certificate;

(ii) Diploma; and

(iii) Degree.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, a total of 7,811 teachers who graduated between …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sinyinda: … 2000 and 2009 were not yet employed as of 31st July, 2010. The breakdown is as follows:
 
Qualification   No. of people

Certificate   6,811

Diploma   1,000

Degree   Nil

Total   7,811

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to phase out certificates in teaching. How does it plan to bridge the gap by upgrading the certificate holders to diploma and degree levels?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, our plan is to see all teachers obtain either diploma or degree certificates. We have already started doing that. For example, Livingstone Teachers’ Training College is now offering diploma programmes. Mufulira Teachers’ Training and Kitwe Teachers’ Training colleges are also doing the same. To make sure that as many teachers as possible get degrees, we are turning the Nkrumah Teachers’ Training College and Copperbelt Secondary Teachers’ Training College (COSETCO) into university colleges.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, why do we have several trained teachers waiting for many years before they can be deployed whilst there are many schools, especially in the rural areas, with very low staffing positions?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to inform this august House that, in the period under review, Government institutions had only produced 17,734 teachers who graduated from Government training institutions, including the University of Zambia. However, within the same period, we have employed 30,032 teachers. This means that we had absorbed all the trained teachers except that, as you may know, we do not compel anybody to be employed. Therefore, the 7,811 teachers who are not in Government schools may have been absorbed by the private sector.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister implying that the 7,811 teachers are in fact employed in private schools or is it that they could still be unemployed? If they are still unemployed, what plans does the ministry have to try and employ them?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, like I have already stated, we do not compel anybody to get employment. Employment is by application. Those who graduate from our training institutions must apply for teaching jobs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, a while ago, we heard the hon. Minister state very categorically that 7,811 teachers would be employed this calendar year. How many of those are certificate, diploma and degree holders?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, you will recall that, from 2002 to 2005, there was an employment freeze in the Government. Since the economy has started doing well and the Ministry of Education is not an island and is a consumptive ministry, there has been more money for us to employ. From 2005, we have consistently employed teachers in batches of 5,000 until we reached 30,000 teachers. Yes, there could still be some teachers out there who were trained and went into the private sector, but there are still others who might not just have a job either in the private sector or the Ministry of Education.

Sir, our plan is to employ a minimum of another 30,000 teachers between now and 2015. We hope that, from 2012, the teachers employed will hold the qualification of a diploma or higher qualification. The reason we are doing this is that we understand that to impact on the quality of education, we must have a well-trained teacher because he/ she is the number one input in education for us to get the right output; an educated Zambia.

Sir, in terms of planning, we will continue to employ certificate holders who are the majority at the moment. However, we have already begun offering diploma training in our colleges so that by 2012 going on to 2015, we should have a large number of diploma holders so that we can phase out the certificate training. I believe this is the first and most important way that we are going to attack poor standards of teaching in our schools.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I am surprised that the hon. Minister is showing ignorance of teachers …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Withdraw that word.

Mr Ntundu: I withdraw it, Sir. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government is ignorant about the set of …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Why do you keep on using that word? Please find another word.

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government knows the number of teachers in the private sector which also falls under her ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Can the hon. Minister tell this House how many teachers there are in the private sector?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I may not be able to give the exact number of teachers in the private sector off-the-cuff. The hon. Member is right to say that the Ministry of Education is responsible for the provision of education in the country. If this information can help him make substantive decisions after this, we will be more than happy to provide it to him.

Mr Speaker, what we do know for sure is that we have, at least, 84,000 teachers in the public education institutions and these are what we manage and deal with everyday. If, however, the number of teachers in private schools is important to the hon. Member, we will be more than happy to make it available.

I thank you, Sir.

COPPERBELT HIV PREVALENCE RATE

210. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what the HIV prevalence rate in the Copperbelt Province was as of 31st July, 2010;

(b) how many infected people in the province were receiving anti-retroviral treatment from Government health institutions in the same period; and

(c) what measures the Government had taken to reduce the HIV prevalence rate.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker, the HIV prevalence rate on the Copperbelt Province as of 31st July, 2010, was projected to be 16.5%.

Currently, there are 70, 219 infected people receiving anti-retroviral drugs in public health institutions in the province.

Mr Speaker, the Government has taken the following measures to reduce the HIV prevalence rate in the Copperbelt Province:

(i) provision of free anti-retroviral drugs in public institutions;

(ii) accelerating prevention of sexual transmission of HIV through targeted behaviour and social change communication;

(iii) promotion of correct and consistent use of condoms;

(iv) scaling-up of male medical circumcision;

(v) addressing multiple and concurrent sexual partners through comprehensive behaviour change communication;

(vi) scaling up evidence-based prevention for higher risk populations;

(vii) strengthening and expanding counseling and testing services; and

(viii) prevention of mother-to-child-transmission of HIV.
  
Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what this Government is doing to compel people who are visibly sick but refuse to go for HIV testing. What is this Government doing to encourage these people so that the health institutions know exactly what to treat them for? 

The Ministry of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the practice, at the moment, is that if one goes to a hospital or  clinic and the staff is convinced that an HIV test is required, they counsel the patient. In most cases, it has proved fruitful as the patients agree to be tested. Normally, such people are diagnosed when they present themselves at the clinic. We have not gone to the extent of testing people on the streets.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister said 70,219 people are infected on the Copperbelt. I would like to find out whether the ministry intends to take over the ART Programme rather than letting it be donor-driven.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, we did not say that 70,219 people are infected. This is just the number of people we are providing ART with. There could be more people on the Copperbelt who are infected with the virus.

It is important that we look into the ownership of the ART Programme because, one day, donor funding will not be there. I would like to thank the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for boosting our budget by 30 per cent. This has made it much easier for us to embark on programmes that we could not otherwise have embarked on. The Government, therefore, is already moving towards taking over the ART Programme.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health whether he is collaborating with other ministries, especially those that discriminate against employees who are HIV positive. I have been made to understand that one measure of HIV/AIDS prevention is to stick to one sexual partner, especially for married couples.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the issue of one sexual partner is not just for people who are HIV positive, but for everyone. We, therefore, must resolve the issue of polygamous existence. If we could all just stick to one person, we would do very well in this fight.

Stigma has reduced. Zambians have done well in this area. Today, there are many people who have come out in the open with regard to their HIV status and are not ashamed about it. This has eliminated the stigma which was attached to this pandemic and which prevented many people from seeking help. I, therefore, do not think that there are places where people are being segregated. If there is a place where there is segregation on account of one’s HIV status, this practice must stop. We are educated enough to understand how this disease comes about and how one can avoid getting it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I would like to learn from the hon. Minister whether his ministry has established why the HIV prevalence rate on the Copperbelt is higher than that of the Northern Province.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, yes, the HIV prevalence rate is higher on the Copperbelt. However, I hope that the hon. Member of Parliament will appreciate that, previously, it was at 26 per cent. At the moment, the Copperbelt Province is doing quite well because the HIV prevalence rate has reduced from 26 per cent to 16 per cent. Considering the fact that this is a highly urbanised place where there is a lot of money and all sorts of vices and a very high lifestyle, the Copperbelt Province is doing very well and, as a Government, we would encourage the people there that if they are able to reduce the prevalence rate from 26 per cent to 16 per cent, then they can go all the way to zero. This is a positive achievement for the Government.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, the positive things that this country has achieved in the fight against HIV/AIDS are commendable. However, could the hon. Minister comment on the concerns by the Medical Association of Zambia that most of the positive achievements are made based on donor support, especially the Global Fund. The Medical Association of Zambia is also concerned that these programmes supported by donors are not sustainable. What is the ministry going to do about that?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister has already answered that question, however, could he emphasise.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, all the programmes that are carried out in this country are spearheaded by the Zambian Government. Whether some programmes are assisted by donors or not, it is the Government that makes them. For example, if we have programmes to run and cannot find money from other sources, we support them ourselves. We set our priorities and know how to run these programmes. However, if there is money available somewhere on the market, of course, we get it. If it is not there, we, as the Government of the Republic of Zambia, support these programmes.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musonda (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, in the interest of strengthening laws against HIV transmission, thereby reducing the HIV incidence and prevalence rates, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government, through the Ministry of Health, has any intentions of recommending a special parliamentary or legislative committee on HIV/AIDS which, among other things, will be able to provide an on-going forum for Parliamentarians to deepen their understanding of HIV/AIDS epidemic, through briefings and policy discussions. Definitely, this would serve as a vehicle on …

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

 The hon. Member is debating.

Dr Musonda: May I find out if the Government has any such intentions.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, thank you for that question from the hon. Member who is concerned about …

Mr Lubinda: Aah!

Mr Simbao: … the lack of interest or knowledge on HIV/AIDS matters by the hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: I think I heard him right and that was his concern. I also support the idea that hon. Members of Parliament should help. If all hon. Members of Parliament spent most of their time in their constituencies, discussing HIV/AIDS instead of politics, we would have done very well as a country, hence the hon. Member’s suggestion that a committee which will serve as a vehicle through which hon. Members of Parliament could participate actively be put in place.

I am aware that we have Coalition of African Parliamentarians against HIV/AIDS (CAPHA) here at Parliament. Maybe, we need to strengthen it and see how we can proceed.

Hon. Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, a year ago, CAPHA advised me that it had offered to make arrangements for all of us in this House to take an HIV test.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: I do not know why this has not been done.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: I think this is the concern of the hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Have you gone yourself?

Mr Simbao: The people heckling have no courage to take the test.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: We need to put up booths outside this House and compel all Members of Parliament to take the test.

Mrs Phiri: Let us go!

Mr Simbao: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

ZAMBIA REVENUE AUTHORITY

211. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning how much money the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) collected from the following learning institutions in the form of Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) in 2009.

(a) University of Zambia;

(b) Copperbelt University; and

(c) Zambia Institute of Certified Accountants.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, in 2009, the ZRA collected the following amounts in the form of PAYE from the following learning institutions:

Institution Amount (Km)

University of Zambia 1,565.0
Copperbelt University 299.4 
Zambia Institute of Certified Accountants 677.2

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, in 2010, there were justified reports that the University of Zambia was not paying tax to the Government of the Republic of Zambia through ZRA. In line with the answer that has just been given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, may I know whether that answer portrays a true picture of what is transpiring at the learning institution in question?

Mr Matongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: You are too late.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, these figures were given to the ministry by ZRA as amounts it collected in 2009.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, currently, …

Mr Matongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, I sincerely apologise to my brother for raising a point of order as he was about to raise a sensible supplementary question to you.

Sir, the issue of revenue collection and taxation in this country, be it from banks, insurance companies, pensions board and mines, is one that, in my opinion, is divisive, considering the large demand for explanation on the issue from our constituencies. Would it not be prudent for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to come up with a ministerial statement to clarify the misconceptions, misunderstandings and sometimes, correctly so, advice on revenue collection for the correct position to reach the people in the districts? Is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to sit there and do nothing instead of coming to this House to clear this confusion on the tax regime in this country which is now dividing the country? Mr Speaker, I need your guidance in this matter in the interest of this country.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Pemba has raised a point of order which the House has clearly heard. It is up to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to volunteer a ministerial statement to clear the misconceptions which are dividing the country. I just want to remind you that this issue and many others were debated in detail before passing the current National Budget. Sometimes, especially from where I sit, it appears as if there are certain hon. Members or even members of the public out there who do not wish to appreciate some of the explanations on these important matters given by the Executive on my right.

In certain professions, they say a repeated word eventually registers. I believe that is the thrust of the point of order. So, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the Chair will give you the platform any time you will wish to come back, again and again, to clarify this matter until everybody has heard you.

Will the hon. Member continue, please?

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, the people have been fulfilling their obligation by paying PAYE. The University of Zambia has been paying to the tune of K1.5 billion and the Copperbelt University has been paying K200 million. To the contrary, there is a huge amount of money which has not been paid to the retired workers at the two universities and I would like to know what the Government is doing to clear this debt.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the position mentioned by the hon. Member. In fact, in the current Budget, there is a provision of K73 billion which will specifically go towards dismantling that debt. In addition, it is important to look at a more sustainable financial position for these institutions. The hon. Minister of Education has articulated on many occasions that these institutions are going into initiatives like private-public partnerships (PPPs) to generate income and, therefore, make their financial position much sounder. We are aware that they are in a position were they are owing mainly due to terminal benefits which were due to separated employees. We are aware of this and, apart from the provision in the budget, there are also parallel initiatives which are going to ensure that the arrears are cleared.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to indicate whether in addition to the PAYE that she explained, there was also withholding tax on consultancies collected from researchers and consultants operating at these institutions of learning in 2009.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. Suffice to say that although this question was specifically on PAYE, we are aware that the institution is owing and has been making efforts to make good the various taxes, not only PAYE but also withholding tax that you talked about. As I said, we are working to put them in a situation where they are financially sound so that they do not accrue arrears.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the University of Zambia owed ZRA in the form of PAYE before 2009.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

If the hon. Minister has the answer, let her provide it.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, the position is that, prior to this period, there are amounts in arrears on PAYE. The Copperbelt University was in the region of K71 billion and the University of Zambia was in the region of K130 billion but both institutions are now up to date. What is left to be done is to make sure that they clear the arrears that you have talked about.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: That is what I call preparing oneself for eventual questions such as that one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how the ministry will manage to repay the superannuation fund going by the circular issued to the lecturers at the University of Zambia.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, I note the details of the issue the hon. Member is referring to but I am sure that where there is a tax obligation and we know that we have to meet it, there will be a provision to make sure that this is done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government is thinking of adjusting PAYE downwards, especially in those institutions so that people can earn a decent salary.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, first of all, PAYE cannot be applied to specific institutions because it applies across the board. Secondly, this Government has, year in and year out, increased the threshold. This is the amount allowed before tax brackets are arrived at every single year. This will continue as the economy grows when more jobs are created and more people come in to pay tax. Then there will be room to look at this particular tax because there is a whole range of taxes that we have to look at as we make a fiscal plan. This is just one of the taxes and the Government is aware that we need to give more relief to the taxpayer and, as more people come into the tax paying brackets, then we can review that position.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Quality!

NAPSA TOTAL ASSET VALUE

212. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) what the total value of assets of the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) was as of September, 2010;

 (b) when the last valuation of NAPSA assets was done;

(c) what the total member contribution to NAPSA was as of September, 2010; and

 (d) what the future plans for investments for NAPSA were.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Kachimba): Mr Speaker, the total value of NAPSA assets as at September, 2010 was K3.8 trillion. The last valuation for NAPSA was at 31st December, 2008 and the total member’s contribution by 30th September, 2010 was K472 billion. The future plans for investment for NAPSA are in real estate development in the country such as, for example, houses, shopping malls and office amenities, investment in infrastructure development and investments in other projects as opportunities arise from time to time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security, NAPSA management has made some investment. How much money has been put in that investment?

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Mr Speaker, the question is not clear. I do not know what the hon. Member wishes to find out. However, investments are varied. So, what determines the amount of investment in each project is the type of project itself and what is involved in the project and that varies from one project to the other.

I thank you, Sir.

LUKULU DISTRICT

213. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development whether the Government had any plans to connect Lukulu District to the national electricity grid.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Imasiku): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to connect Lukulu District in the Western Province to the national grid. The necessary feasibility studies, techno-economic and environmental impact assessments have been conducted. Preliminary designs for the complete works have also been made. The estimated cost of connecting Lukulu District to the national grid is US$10.6 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out when the implementation will be done, bearing in mind that a lot of districts beyond Lukulu are being connected.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, I want to assure the hon. Member that the Government is not sleeping but busy working on this. I also want to assure him that tender documents have already been issued and the closing date for the tender is actually 25th February, 2011.

Mr Speaker, in the meantime, ZESCO has already moved on site to commence bush clearing and survey of the line route and acquisition of land for the substation. This land has already been allocated. The supply to Lukulu is targeted at electrifying Lukulu Boma and the surrounding areas and we are on course.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, has the ministry considered, as a general policy, connecting Lukulu District to link with the other districts, especially in the North/Western Province like Mwinilunga, Kabompo, Mufumbwe, Zambezi and Chavuma which are also not connected to the national grid? Would that not be cheaper and make the supply in that area much more secure than it is at the moment.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, the Government has already done what the hon. Member is asking about. An estimation of US$84 million has already been made to connect the whole North-Western Province from Mumbezhi to Lukulu. So, the whole North-Western Province has been budgeted for and the works will start in 2012 and will be completed in 2014. That has already been taken care of.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, considering that very soon the Kariba North Bank extension project will be finishing and, therefore, generation capacity will increase, what plans are there to supply more power to places like Luapula Province which has very little power at the moment?

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, I want to assure the hon. Member that, actually, Luapula is one of the places where we want to extend power to. Currently, we have a power output of 1, 800 megawatts. When we provide power from Kariba North Bank and Kafue Gorge Lower, the output will increase and we hope to improve the line from Pensulo and power supply to Luapula.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

MOTION

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENTS OF MR JUSTICE TIMOTHY AGGREY KABALATA TO SERVE AS CHAIRPERSON OF THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION, MR MPAZI JOUBERT SINYANGWE AND BRIGADIER-GENERAL ANTHONY MUNDUBI (RTD) TO SERVE AS COMMISSIONERS OF THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION AND BISHOP VENASSIE MIBENGE, MR ARNOLD KAPELEMBI, MR AUSTINE CHISENGA, MRS ISABEL KATONGO SIMUKONDA AND MRS MWANGALA KAPWAMBA MUTUMWENU YETA MSIMUKO TO SERVE AS MEMBERS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointments of Mr Justice Timothy Aggrey Kabalata to serve as Chairperson of the Anti-Corruption Commission, Mr Mpazi Joubert Sinyangwe and Brigadier-General Anthony Mundubi (Rtd) to serve as commissioners of the Anti-Corruption Commission and Bishop Venassie Mibenge, Mr Arnold Kapelembi, Mr Austine Chisenga, Mrs Isabel Katongo Simukonda and Mrs Mwangala Kapwamba Mutumwenu Yeta Msimuko to serve as Members of the Human Rights Commission, for the Fifth Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the table of the House on 16th February, 2011.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, on one hand, the appointments of Mr Justice Timothy Aggrey Kabalata, Mr Mpazi Joubert Sinangwe and Brigadier-General Anthony Mundubi (Rtd) are made pursuant to the provisions of Paragraph 2, (3) of the schedule to the Anti-Corruption Commission Act No. 38 of 2010 of the Laws of Zambia which states that the commissioners shall be appointed by the President, subject to ratification by the National Assembly.

The Anti-Corruption Act further states, under Sub-Paragraphs (4) and (5) of Paragraph 2 of the schedule, that a person is eligible to be appointed as a commissioner if that person:

(a) is a citizen of Zambia;
(b) is permanently resident in Zambia;
(c) is of high integrity; and 
(d) has served with distinction at a senior level in a Government office or a registered profession or vocation.

Mr Speaker, a person shall not be appointed as a commissioner if that person:

(a) holds office in, or is an employee of any political party; or
(b) has been convicted of an offence involving fraud or dishonesty or any other offence under this Act or any other written law and sentenced therefore to a term of imprisonment of six months or more without the option of a fine.

Sir, on other hand, the appointments of Bishop Venassie Mibenge, Mr Arnold Kapelembi, Mr Austin Chisenga, Mrs Isabel Katongo Simukonda and Mrs Mwangala Kapwamba Mutumwenu Yeta Msimuko are made pursuant to the provisions of Section 5 (2) of the Human Rights Commission Act No. 39 of 1996 of the Laws of Zambia. It is there provided the commissioners shall be appointed by the President, subject to ratification by the National Assembly.

Further, Section 5 (3) of the Human Rights Commission Act, states that:

“(3)  The chairperson and vice-chairperson shall be persons who have held, or are qualified to hold, high judicial office.”

Mr Speaker, in its deliberations, your Committee was guided by the fact that the nominees were being appointed to institutions that play a critical role in good governance. In view of this, your Committee held the view that persons to occupy the offices of commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and member of the Human Rights Commission (HRC) should possess other attributes in addition to their academic and professional qualifications.

Your Committee was thus of the view that the nominees should be fearless advocates of justice for all and courageous in defending the rule of law even in the face of resistance from the political leadership in power.  Further, these positions called upon the nominees to be independent in thought and deed as well as be able to professionally discharge their duties regardless of the status of the persons who approached their offices.

Sir, in view of the foregoing, your Committee, in scrutinising the nominees’ appointments, took into account the need for the nominees to have the highest levels of competence, eminence, integrity, efficiency and diligence.  Further, your Committee assessed the suitability of the nominees to serve as proposed by scrutinising their curriculum vitae and all the information submitted to it by the State investigative agencies and relevant professional bodies. 

In terms of legal requirements, your Committee analysed the provisions of the law as contained in sub-paragraphs (4) and (5) of paragraph 2 of the schedule on the Anti-Corruption Act, 2010 and Sections 5 (2) and (3) of the Human Rights Commission Act, 1996 of the laws of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, all the State security agencies invited to appear before your Committee assured it that they were no adverse reports against any of the nominees in relation to criminal activities, drug trafficking, money laundering, drug abuse and corrupt practices. 

Further, all the professional bodies and stakeholder institutions, with an exception of Transparency International Zambia (TIZ), that appeared before your Committee as witnesses, supported all the nominees as being suitable and sufficiently qualified to serve in the positions they have been proposed for appointment.

Your Committee further had an opportunity to interact with the hon. Minister for Presidential Affairs, who represented the appointing authority.  Apart from showing that the nominees were qualified in terms of the Anti-Corruption Act, 2010 and the Human Rights Commission Act, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the 
Chair]

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Mr Speaker, just before business was suspended I was stating that your Committee further had an opportunity to interact with the hon. Minister for Presidential Affairs who represented the appointing authority.  Apart from showing that the nominees were qualified in terms of the Anti-Corruption Act, 2010 and the Human Rights Commission Act, 1996 under which their proposed appointments are made, the hon. Minister showed your Committee that the nominees were persons of integrity and, as such, suitable to serve in the important public offices of commissioner and member of the ACC and HRC, respectively.

Sir, your Committee observes that the nominees with their varying qualifications and experiences will positively contribute to the governance of our country in the positions they have been proposed for appointment.

Furthermore, your Committee observes that all the nominees understand the functions and demands of the offices to which they have been proposed for appointment, and thus your Committee is sufficiently satisfied that the nominees, if ratified by this House, will succeed in performing the functions of their respective offices.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, after due and thorough evaluation of the evidence presented to it by the witnesses and its subsequent interviews with the nominees, finds all the nominees suitably qualified for appointment in their respective positions.

Sir, with these few remarks, it is my honour to call upon all hon. Members of this House to support your Committee’s recommendation to ratify these appointments.

In conclusion, the hon. Members of your Committee wish to place on record their gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for appointing them to serve on this important Select Committee. I also wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

Last but not the least, your Committee’s gratitude extends to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their oral and written submissions which assisted it in arriving at an informed recommendation to the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speaker now or later?

Mr V. Mwale: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the mover of this Motion has ably moved it, as he clearly stated the position of the Committee regarding the appointment of the nominees to their various offices. Therefore, I wish to thank him for the manner he has moved this Motion. I will be brief since the mover has already covered a lot of issues.

We realise, as a Committee, Mr Speaker, that these two institutions for which the appointments are required play a critical role in the good governance of this country. As the country is making progress in fighting corruption and upholding the rights of its citizens, it is important that the people who are called upon or nominated to serve in these two important institutions are of high integrity as was mentioned by the mover. After scrutinising the nominees, I am sure that the Committee found them to be mature people with integrity who are experienced and qualified. I think that these people will perform the tasks that have been given to them in the best interest of this great nation, Zambia.

Mr Speaker, we are also happy that among the five people appointed to serve on the HRC, two are women. This shows that the appointing authority took into consideration gender aspects which require a balance in the gender of the number of people appointed to serve in such important institutions.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I wish to thank you for nominating me to serve on this important Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to join in this debate.

Sir, from the outset, I wish to state that I support the Committee’s position and commend both the mover and seconder in the able way in which they have debated. May I state that the people who have been nominated are men and women of distinction and that this is as it should be seeing that these are two very important institutions to the good governance of our country.

I have known Mr Justice Timothy Aggrey Kabalata personally for a good number of years. I can, without fear of contradiction, state that he is a man of great integrity and will fit in very ably as the Chairperson of the ACC. I am sure the other nominees as well will equally do the same in their various offices. However, I stand here, Mr Speaker, in order to make one or two comments with regard to the HRC. Having looked at the report and the names of the people who have been nominated, I feel comforted that the nominees are men and women who will be able to discharge their duties as is expected of them.

Mr Speaker, one of the things that they have to do as part of their duties is to act in the interest of society in general. They do not need to wait for instructions from any quota of society for them to intervene where there may be some kind of human rights abuse or where there may be suspicion of such. This means that whenever a situation arises such as the one which occurred on the 14th January, 2011 in Mongu and Limulunga, the HRC, without waiting for any prompting because of the large number of people who were arrested, injured and killed, should, as a matter of course, rush into intervening in such a situation and institute investigations on its own. It should not wait for anybody to bring in a complaint or anything of that nature in order to get to the bottom of what transpired.

Quite often, commissions of inquiry and so on and so forth may be put up by the Government even though they may come too late. Crucial evidence may not have been gathered or could have been destroyed due to the fact that the people who were affected do not know their actual rights. In situations such as the one that occurred in the Western Province, the HRC should, for example, have started taking statements from people who were eye witnesses. They should have been there to advise the families of the deceased that they should demand for an inquest to be held regarding the deaths of those that lost their lives. That is how we expect the HRC to function. It is supposed to act as a rapid response force in order to safeguard human rights in this country. It is not too late for it to do so. Let me take this opportunity to urge the newly-appointed commissioners to take up this challenge because, evidently, it is something which is vexing a lot of people throughout the country. This is something which, if not attended to, could lead to a lot of speculation, including that which may not necessarily be true. The only way forward with regard to such matters is for us to have in place an impartial body which will look into them.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to add my words of support to the debate on the Motion ably moved by the hon. Member for Chasefu and seconded by the hon. Member for Chipangali.

Mr Speaker, Zambia has set up a number of institutions to help it in the governance of this country. Among those institutions is the ACC as well as the HRC. Zambia is spending a lot of money on these institutions. This money is often voted for by this House.

Many names, ably qualified, as explained by both the mover and seconder of this Motion, come forward as nominees to fill positions in these institutions. We have no doubt in our minds that these people nominated are more than capable of running these institutions.

 However, one needs to examine the efficacy and determine whether or not the Zambian people or Zambia, as a nation, is getting the full benefit of these institutions and the amounts of money that we are spending on them. It is only after a thorough examination of these issues that we, as a nation, can hope to progress.

Mr Speaker, I will pose a few questions. We have had the ACC for many years. However, all these years, the incidence and perception of corruption in this country has not changed, but the number of cases has instead gone up.

Mr Speaker, the queries that arise in the Auditor-General’s (AG) report do not show signs of diminishing year in and year out. These involve matters related to corruption and abuse of public resources. Zambians are entitled to ask what value these institutions manned by such able people, as suggested now and those that have gone before them, offer to this country.

I hope that even as we ratify these appointments, they will ask themselves and those they find in these institutions questions such as: What has gone wrong? Why do we have these institutions? Why do we have ably qualified people, and yet the impact on, for example, corruption in this country is not discernable?

Mr Speaker, in his debate, the hon. Member for Livingstone, made reference to the need for these able people to take action as determined by these institutions without reference to instructions from any outside body or institution. That is what it should be.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that one of the major reasons we are not seeing value for money in these institutions is the inability, in spite of the high qualifications and levels of integrity of the people running them and unwillingness of such appointees to perform their duties without reference to forces outside, as has been already indicated by those before me. Until this issue is resolved and people appointed to high institutions begin to perform according to their ability, this country will not gain much from these institutions.

Mr Speaker, with the appointment of Judge Kabalata and his fellow eminent colleagues, I would like to see a situation where one of their relics is not just to run the ACC on a day-to-day basis, but to ensure that they work on reducing incidents of corruption. There should be some deliverables.

Mr Speaker, supposing we did not have the ACC all these years, would it have made a difference on the number of corruption cases or the number of queries we see in the Auditor general’s report? The answer is probably not and, we, the tax payers, have a right to ask these questions.

Mr Speaker, as regards the Human Rights Commission (HRC), it is the same. The incident referred to by the hon. Member for Livingstone is a fresh case in point where we expected the HRC to have been more proactive in ensuring that abuses of human rights are minimised and if they do occur, action is taken. The HRC is there to serve the vulnerable in society who cannot defend themselves and are subject to those higher in authority.

Mr Speaker, with reference to an issue that has already been made mention of, among the people that were arrested and put in containers, on or around the 14th of January in Mongu, were school children. Thirty of those that were moved to Mumbwa were school children. There is one child, Chimwaso Mwila, from Limulunga High School, who is still in custody in Mumbwa Prison. If this is not abuse of human and children’s rights, then what is?

We have seen the lack of action and involvement from the HRC, and yet there are many areas on which it could have given guidance not only to the families of those affected, but also the Government. There are times when this Government requires direction.

The HRC is an independent commission and we expect that these new appointees will rise to the occasion and be in the forefront of protecting the vulnerable wherever human rights abuse takes place.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. K B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, may I simply thank the hon. Members for having supported the Motion overwhelmingly. I am convinced that the nominees will live up to their expectations.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.
____________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE JUVENILES (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I seek your serious indulgence pertaining to the Bill that is now under consideration by this hon. House.

Sir, is it procedural and in order for this House to debate a Bill that is defective? If you look at the Bill that is before you, Bill No. 48 of 2010, you will realise that the heading of this particular bill reads:

“An Act to emend the Local Government Act.”

Sir, in Paragraph 1, it goes further to state that:

“This Act may be sided as the Juveniles Amendment Act 2010, and shall be read as one with the Juveniles Act, in this Act referred to as the principle Act.”

Mr Speaker, the question that begs an answer is whether we are in order to debate a Bill that has been laid before this House which is defective in content and in substance.

I seek your serious ruling, Sir

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Monze, in his point of order, argues that the Bill that is on the Order Paper is defective. My guidance is as follows:

In accordance with the practice, this Bill was referred to the relevant Committee of this very House. This House expects the Chairperson, among other debaters of that Committee, to make comments on what their findings and recommendations on this Bill have been.

Without anticipating anything, it is very likely that they may have noticed what the hon. Member is saying. If they did, I suggest that they propose a necessary amendment at the right time.

I am just about to call on His Honour the Vice-President and the learned Minister of Justice to move the second reading stage of the Bill. It is very likely that he will touch on the concern which is being expressed.

I cannot explain what happened but, remember that, even in the computer age, strange things can happen.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: A computer can move a heading from one Bill to another without people noticing until probably now.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: So, I suggest you hold your concern until you have heard His Honour the Vice-President with this matter.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to concede that we shall make the necessary amendment, including the one which the hon. Member is talking about.

Sir, the Juveniles (Amendment) Bill of 2010 seeks to amend the Juveniles Act, Cap. 53 of the Laws of Zambia in order to revise the provisions that led to the hearing of the evidence of a child of tender years.

Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that the number of cases before our courts requiring the testimony of a child are on the increase. Children are increasingly giving evidence or testimony before courts in cases where there are victims of defilement, incest and child pornography.

Currently, the Law requires a child of tender years, which is a child below the age of fourteen years, to understand the nature of an oath before the court can attach weight to the testimony of the child. This requirement is onerous and unnecessarily disqualifies children who could give useful and credible evidence from testifying on oath.

Sir, the Law, as it stands, has made the successful prosecution of cases where a child is the only witness unnecessarily difficult as child witnesses find it difficult to explain the nature of an oath.

Mr Speaker, the amendment to the Juveniles Act proposes to repeal Section 122 of the Juveniles Act and substitute it with a provision which empowers courts to receive evidence on oath from a child of tender years provided that, in the opinion of the court, that child possesses sufficient intelligence and understands the duty of telling the truth.

Sir, this Bill is progressive as it aims to facilitate access to justice, especially for child victims of sexually-related crimes.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to take this opportunity to say that I have read the report of the Committee. It has made suggestions on amendments, including typographical errors regarding the title of the Bill which we shall attend to.

I, therefore, urge hon. Members to support this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, the Juveniles (Amendment) Bill, National Assembly Bill No. 48 of 2010, was referred to the Committee by the House on 25th November, 2010. It seeks to amend the Juveniles Act, Cap. 53 of the Laws of Zambia so as to, among other things, revise the provisions relating to the hearing of the evidence of a child of tender years and provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Sir, in scrutinising the Bill, your Committee requested written submissions and oral input from various stakeholders. Most stakeholders submitted that they agreed with the objectives of the Bill.

While noting the background information and the concerns of stakeholders, your Committee observes that the Government has undertaken a piecemeal approach to the amendment of laws concerning children. Your Committee observes that this approach is not helping to address the problem of having laws which are not child friendly. It, therefore, recommends a comprehensive review and amalgamation of all the Acts concerning children into one which will be known as the Child Act.

Your Committee welcomes the move to define the age of a child of tender years and emphasises that the Bill should clearly state a minimum age for a child to take oath under this category.

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends that the age of twelve years should be taken as a minimum age to take oath. Reference is made to studies in psychology that have reviewed that, at the age of twelve years, a child is reasonably developed intellectually to understand the importance of an oath and the duty to speak the truth.

Sir, your Committee observes that taking of an oath is an intimidating procedure even for adults. Therefore, they recommend that children below the age of twelve years should not be allowed to take oath. However, they could be allowed to give unsworn evidence which could be taken by the courts once it has been collaborated by some other material evidence in support.

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends that in order to ensure the best interest of the child, giving evidence in court by a child of tender years should be in camera. This will protect the child from trauma resulting from undue influence and intimidation.

Mr Speaker, your Committee strongly recommends the revision of the Child Justice System to ensure that the creation of a child friendly atmosphere and utilisation of court professionals who have been trained in handling cases involving children.

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Bill clearly states that an objectively prepared voire dire (a process used by a Judge of the Court to determine the suitability of a child to give trial evidence in court with the full involvement of the child psychologist and social workers) will be used to establish the child’s possession of sufficient intelligence to justify the reception of its evidence on oath.

Sir, in conclusion, allow me to express my gratitude to you for affording your Committee the opportunity to scrutinise the Juveniles (Amendment) Bill, 2010. May I also thank all the stakeholders who submitted written memoranda and subsequently appeared before your Committee to give oral evidence. My appreciation also goes to the Clerk and her cadre of staff for the able manner they rendered their service to your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I am going to be very brief because I only have one observation. The Bill is talking about a child under twelve. I want to believe we are talking about a normal child who is under twelve but we have children with disabilities, especially those in the mentally retarded category. Those children are also abused physically, mentally and socially. Where are placed in this Bill because they might not be able to behave like a normal twelve-year child?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the support. As to the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Katombola, I wish to state that there are other laws which adequately address those issues which have been raised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Friday, 25th February, 2011.

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

___________

The House adjourned at 1709 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 24th February, 2011.