DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 9th November, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE
PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENTS OF MR MUMBA MALILA, SC. AS ATTORNEY-GENERAL OF THE REPUBLIC OF ZAMBIA AND MRS ROSEWIN M. WANDI AS DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointments of Mr Mumba Malila, SC., to serve as Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia, and Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi, to serve as Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), laid on the Table of the House on Monday, 7th November, 2011.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, in view of the critical role that the offices of the Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia and Director-General of the ACC play, your Committee resolved that only persons who are highly competent and with unquestionable integrity, diligence, eminence, sound character and commitment to the promotion of justice should serve in these portfolios.

Sir, in this regard, your Committee carefully selected the witnesses to assist them scrutinise the suitability of the nominees. Your Committee requested memoranda from the relevant State security agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholders as well as the appointing authority which was represented by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Speaker, the witnesses also appeared before your Committee to make oral submissions on their written memoranda. Further, your Committee interviewed the nominees and carefully scruitnised their curriculum vitae.

Sir, as regards the findings of the Committee, I wish to inform the House as follows:

(a) Mr Mumba Malila, SC.

Mr Speaker, the appointment of the Attorney-General was made in accordance with Article 54(1) of the Constitution, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia which states:

“There shall be an Attorney-General of the Republic who shall, subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President and shall be:

(i) an ex-officio member of the Cabinet; and
(ii) the Principal Legal Advisor to the Government.”

Further, Sir, Article 54(4) states:

“A person shall not be qualified to be appointed to the Office of the Attorney-General unless he is qualified for appointment as Judge of the High Court.”

Mr Speaker, all the State security agencies cleared the nominee. They stated that their records did not show any adverse reports against Mr Mumba Malila, SC. which could prevent his appointment as Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia.

Sir, your Committee further learnt from the various witnesses that the nominee did not only hold the requisite qualifications for appointment as Attorney-General as provided for under the Republican Constitution, but also distinguished himself as a good lawyer.

Mr Speaker, he has had vast experience in law practice over the years. He occupied the position of Attorney-General between 2006 and 2009.

Sir, his vast experience extends from being a lecturer of Law at the University of Zambia to private legal practitioner having practiced and taught law for more than twenty years.

Further, Mr Speaker, the nominee has served in various professional portfolios over the years. These include:

(i)  Chairperson of the Human Rights Commission;

(ii) Honorary Secretary of the Law Association of Zambia;

(iii) Vice-Chairperson of the African Commission on Human People’s Rights; and

(iv) Legal Counsel and Board Secretary for the Emerging Market Investments Group and Meridien Financial Services Limited.

Sir, he is also an author of various law books that are currently used as reference books at various universities in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further observed that the nominee has an impeccable professional record and the requisite experience for the appointment to the Office of Attorney-General. It also observed that the nominee is of high integrity and is able to stand firm on legal issues requiring his attention and direction.

Sir, your Committee, thus, finds the nominee qualified and suitable to serve in the position of Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia.

(b) Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi

Mr Speaker, the appointment of Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi has been made pursuant to Section 9 (2) of the Anti-Corruption Act, No.38 of 2010 which states:

“the Director-General shall be appointed by the President, subject to ratification by the National Assembly on such terms and conditions as the President may determine.”

Sir, further, Section 9 (3) states:

“a person is not qualified to be appointed as Director-General unless the person is qualified to be appointed Judge of the High Court.”

Mr Speaker, your Committee took into account the current public opinion on the need for commitment and impartiality of the Office of Director-General of the ACC. As you may be aware, the ACC has become an important watchdog on corruption and will invariably enhance democracy and good governance in Zambia. Candidates for the post of Direct-General of the ACC ought, therefore, to be subjected to stringent security so that only a capable and committed citizen is appointed to this office.

Mr Speaker, I wish to report to you that all the State security agencies informed your Committee that a search on their records had revealed that there were no adverse reports against the nominee in relation to criminal activities, drug trafficking, money laundering, drug abuse and corrupt practices. The State security agencies also confirmed to your Committee that the nominee is a Zambian citizen and would not pose a security risk to the nation if appointed to serve in this sensitive position for which she is being considered.

Sir, your Committee also interacted with some professional bodies and stakeholder institutions during its deliberations. All the witnesses supported the nominee through their submissions that she had the requisite professional and work experience having worked at the ACC before from 1982 to 2009 where she rose to the position of Deputy Director-General.

Mr Speaker, two contentious matters arose from your Committee’s interaction with the summoned witnesses. The first issue relates to whether the previous Director-General had vacated office. As such, your Committee wished to be assured that the Office of Director-General was vacant. In order to satisfy itself, your Committee sought audience of the appointing authority. In his submission to the Committee, the hon. Minister of Justice assured your Committee of the existence of a vacancy in the position of Director-General of the ACC. He explained that the former Director-General of the ACC had resigned from the position. This was evidenced by a letter of resignation dated 3rd November, 2011 which was duly signed by the former Director-General.

Sir, the second issue related to publicising names, by the Executive, of nominees to serve in various portfolios before they are ratified by Parliament. While on the face of it the practice looks good, the damage that may be caused on the nominees in the event that they are not ratified is immeasurable. Thus, there is a need to protect the nominees by keeping the nominations and deliberations confidential. Further, in order not to water down the work of Parliament, there is a need for Parliament to be accorded an opportunity to deliberate freely without undue pressure emanating from names of nominees who are already in the public domain following Presidential pronouncements.

Mr Speaker, after thorough consideration of the submission presented to it by the witnesses and the appointing authority and its subsequent interview of the nominee, your Committee finds the nominee suitably qualified to be ratified for appointment as Director-General of the ACC.

Your Committee observes that the nominee’s profession and occupation has exposed her to vast experience which will enable her to effectively handle the dictates of the job. The nominee also has personal attributes which have convinced your Committee that she will be able to perform her duties with diligence and commitment.

Sir, in recommending the nomination of Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi, your Committee urges the Government to speedily work on tightening the provision of tenure of office of the Director-General of the ACC through the amendment of Section 10 of the Anti-Corruption Act, No. 38 of 2010 so as to, among other things, remove the ambiguity in Section 10 (2) of the Act on whether or not the President may remove the Director-General from office without evoking the provisions of Section 10 (3) which require the President to appoint a tribunal to probe the Director-General’s removal from office.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to place on record the Committee’s gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for appointing its members to undertake an important task of scruitinising the nominees. Your Committee is also thankful to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered to it during its deliberations. Your Committee also thanks the State security and investigative agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholder institutions as well as the nominees for the oral and written submissions which assisted your Committee in its work.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mweetwa: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to second the Motion on the ratification of Mr Mumba Malila, SC., and Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi to serve as Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia and Director-General of the ACC, respectively.

Sir, the mover of the Motion has ably addressed the pertinent issues that are in your Committee’s report. I also believe that hon. Members have had an opportunity to read the report of your Committee. I will, therefore, be brief in seconding the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion has clearly stated the position of your Committee on these important nominations. Therefore, in support of the Chairperson, allow me to add that both nominees under consideration by this august House are of high integrity. They are also mature, experienced and qualified to serve in the positions that they are being proposed for appointment.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: The nominees’ curriculum vitae, as shown in your Committee’s report, attest to their experience and competence to serve in the positions in which they have been proposed for appointment. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Therefore, Mr Speaker, I simply wish to make an appeal to the nominees that the offices they are ascending to are critical to the promotion of good governance and the rule of law.

 In this regard, they are strongly urged to exhibit high levels of competence, integrity, diligence, impartiality and independence in the execution of the duties of their offices.

Sir, as I conclude, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion for the efficient manner in which he guided the deliberations of your Committee. Let me also acknowledge the team spirit that was exhibited by the members of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to support the report of your Select Committee to scrutinise the appointments of Mr Mumba Malila, SC., as Attorney-General and Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi as Director-General of the ACC.

Mr Speaker, I know the two nominees personally and I have no doubt that they have the capacity to serve in the portfolios they are being recommended. I would like to urge all of us in this House, including my dear colleague, Hon.  Lubinda, to support the Motion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: However, I do not agree with the sentiments of the Chairperson of the Committee that there are lacunas pertaining to Section 10 of the Anti-Corruption Act.

Mr Speaker, there is no ambiguity pertaining to the law on the removal of the Director-General of the ACC from office. For ease of reference, and for the sake of my colleagues who have not had the opportunity to read the Act, with your permission, I would like to read the provisos under Section 10.

Mr Speaker, under Section 10, there are provisos which state:

“(2) A person appointed Director-General may be removed from office for inability to perform the functions of the office, whether arising from infirmity of body or mind or any other cause or for misbehavior.
“(3) If the President considers that the question of removing a person holding the Office of Director-General from office ought to be investigated, then –

(a)  the President shall appoint a tribunal which shall consist of a Chairperson and not less than two other members who hold or have held high judicial office;

(b) the tribunal shall enquire into the matter and report on the facts thereof to the President, and advise the President whether the person holding the Office of Director-General ought to be removed from office under this section for incompetence or inability or for misbehaviour.”

Mr Speaker, there is no ambiguity here. This is a mandatory proviso. The essence of this particular proviso is to provide security of tenure for the holder of the office. It enables the holder of the office not to be compromised by any person pertaining to the functions of this office.

Mr Speaker, it, therefore, follows that the Director-General of the ACC cannot be removed by any person, including the President, without  the report of a tribunal.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I am happy to note that the Committee, itself, has acknowledged this fact in its report although on the Floor of the House, it tends to contradict itself. 

Mr Speaker, I have no doubt that all the breaches of the law arose from the fact that there has been no Attorney-General for this country. I have no doubt that if my colleague, Mr Mumba Malila, SC., was in office, he would have advised the President on the procedures of removing the Director-General of the ACC from office.

Mr Speaker, the Attorney-General would have advised adequately on the procedure of the commissions of inquiry that are appointed by the President he would have advised the President not to go ahead and hand over a particular bank when a commission of inquiry pertaining to the same was in place.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: He would not have gone ahead to hand over a bank when there is a matter in court pertaining to the ownership of this particular bank.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have no doubt that the Attorney-General would have advised …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating out of question, in order to bring the responsibilities and duties of the Attorney-General into the debate when what is on the Floor is either to approve or reject the ratification of the Attorney-General? Is he in order to dwell on the responsibilities and duties of the Attorney-General? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Firstly, the point of order is not procedural.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Secondly, the hon. Member is actually in order to debate this very important office and what it stands for in our constitutional democracy ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … as the whole report is being considered. I would, therefore, urge him to continue with the debate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have no doubt that Mr Mumba Malila, SC., would have advised the President not to appoint commissioners who are now investigating the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), particularly those who were dismissed from that institution.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: You cannot do that. It is improper.

Mr Hamududu: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: I have no doubt, Sir, that the President would have been advised on the legality of the Barotseland Agreement. This is a topical issue in this country. He would have been advised on this matter.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: People are being misled on this issue. I have no doubt in the capacity of my friend, Mr Mumba Malila, SC., whom we are considering today. Once he is ratified, he will duly advise the President pertaining to the legal efficacy of the Barotseland Agreement.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: I have no doubt that my friend, Mumba Malila, SC., would have been in a position to advise the Government pertaining to the various appointments to senior public offices of persons who have been appearing in court and are being investigated.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I have no doubt that he would have been advising my colleagues on your right, Mr Speaker, that they should be held collectively accountable to this House and not mislead it.

I have no doubt, Sir, …

Mr Mwila: On what?

Mr Mwiimbu: … that once the Attorney-General is appointed, …

Mr Mwila: Noti ukulanda ifyo!

Mr Mwiimbu: … Hon. Mwila will be duly advised on his conduct as hon. Deputy Minister for Luapula Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, in order to discredit my name concerning my conduct?

Laughter

Mr Mwila: I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Quite frankly, I do not know in what way Hon. Mwila has been discredited.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The particulars are certainly not known to the Chair. However, I think Hon. Mwiimbu is out of order to single out Hon. Mwila in this respect.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Therefore, I will rule him out of order on that particular point.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think Hon. Mwila has also noted the ruling.

Sir, the point I am making is that it is cardinal to have somebody who is impartial and professional in their dealings hold the office of Attorney-General. I note that in the Chairperson’s statement to this House, he did not mention the fact that this is a reappointment. Mr Mumba Malila, SC., was our Attorney-General and he performed very well.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: He should not have been removed from office, apart from the fact that the President has the discretionary power to remove any Attorney-General from office. There is no security of tenure. If I had been in office, as President, at that time, I would have not removed him from office because he had performed very well.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: My friends on your right agree.

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I am, therefore, happy to note that you have decided to reappoint a gallant son of Zambia who performed very well and whom we think was victimised at that time. On this one, we have a pact with you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: We also have an alliance with you on the appointment of Mrs Rosewin M. Wandi. She should have been appointed earlier …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … than now that the recommendation has been made by His Excellency President Michael Sata.

Mr Ntundu: Patriotic Front-United Party for National Development (PF-UPND) Alliance!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: She deserves to have been appointed earlier. She deserves this position not because she is a woman, but because she is qualified and very competent.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I have no doubt about all this, taking into account the fact that you have noted that the dismissal of the ACC Director-General was ultra vires ab initio and did not take place because he had just resigned.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are also happy to note that you have actually decided to redeploy a very bad person whom you have condemned in the eyes of the public to serve in a public office of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Colonel Kaunda): Amutelele!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Where is your handkerchief?

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion before this august House.

Sir, from the outset, I wish to state that I support the Motion 100 per cent. However, before I focus on the Motion, let me take this rare opportunity to join my hon. Colleagues in the House to pay my congratulations to you and your team on your elections. I am sure our friends on the other side now agree with us that: “We chose a damn good man.”

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, I would not be standing here if it were not for a band of young men and women who, at the risk of losing their jobs and business, came together …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Defence, Hon. Panji Kaunda, in order to refer to the Speaker using the word “damn”? Is he in order to use that word in this House? Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

He did not refer to the Speaker as “damn” per se, but used the word ‘damn’ as an adjective. However, I think that given the decorum of the House, we should not encourage the use of such colloquial language.

Laughter

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, our friends on your right agree with us for choosing a very good man as Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Kaunda: Sir, I would not be standing here if it were not for a band of brave young men and women who, at the risk of losing their jobs, came together to propagate the ideals of a people’s-pact forum. We will never quantify the effect that our work had on the results of the elections, suffice to say if we made one person change their mind from voting for the MMD to voting for the PF, we would have achieved our aim. To my ‘Kabundula Brigade’, I say job well done. However, I wish to tell them that we only won a battle, but the war continues.

Mr Muntanga: Which war?

Colonel Kaunda: The war against corruption and poverty.

The Chinese have a saying that you must remember who dug the well as you drink from it. I want to remember the one who dug the well of the knowledge that I possess today. This one chased me all over Chilenje to ensure that I went to school. Without him, maybe, today, I would have been …

Mr Muteteka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I rise to seek clarification. Is the hon. Member on the Floor delivering a maiden speech or debating the Motion on the Floor? We know that, last week, he delivered his maiden speech. However, it seems that he is repeating it.

I need your guidance.

Mr Speaker: According to the record, the hon. Deputy Minister of Defence has not yet delivered his maiden speech. Given that circumstance, he is entitled to doing so, but with the caveat that, ultimately, we are here to debate the Motion at hand.

May the hon. Deputy Minister of Defence take note of that counsel?

Colonel Kaunda: Nsanje!

Laughter

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, I was paying tribute to the man who has made me and that is your late father, Sir. Without him, I would not be here. I thank him through you.

Interruptions

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, may I say a few words …

Mr Muntanga: Who is that father?

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Matibini. I have no doubt about the experience …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, in this House, we do not talk about fathers and mothers or sisters and brothers. The Hon. Mr Speaker is not a father to anybody. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to keep talking about somebody’s father without reference for the information of the hon. Members? Is he in order to be telling us about fathers of people here?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister of Defence did, in the course of his debate, clarify that. May he continue, please?

Laughter

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, no one doubts the experience of Mrs Wandi. Her curriculum vitae speaks volumes. I agree with the findings of your Committee, on page 14, paragraph 15, where it complains about the announcement of the appointments of the officebearers before the names came to this House. It is important that all of us who are close to the Presidency do our job by advising him correctly. We do not want to bring his name into disrepute. Some of us, who were near Dr Kaunda, years ago, know that his officers feared him.

Interruptions

Colonel Kaunda: We should not let our President down by being fearful of his temper. All of us have a duty, individually or collectively, to give advice to our President to make life good so that come the 2016 elections, it will be a walkover for this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Kaunda: Mr Speaker, even the officers we are putting in these offices must have the courage to say “no” to the Executive. They must have the courage to say “no” to corrupt people because they have our protection. If they need protection, the Speaker is here to protect them. We do not want to go through what we went through with the former Director-General of the ACC.

Mr Speaker, there can never be democracy if these offices are compromised. Everything depends on this country being corrupt free. Mr Mumba Malila is no stranger to this office. This country is badly in need of good laws. The Government depends on him to give us guidance, but if a bad law goes to his desk, he must have the strength to advise the Government against adopting it.

Mr Speaker, I notice that our colleagues in the Opposition said very little against corruption in their maiden speeches. We know that the reason is that their former boss said that there was no corruption in Zambia. Therefore, there is no way they can condemn it since they believe that it does not exist in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Kaunda: Corruption must be fought with all our might. It is the source of most of the evils that we see in our country today. It denies citizens access to services. So, it must not show its ugly face in this country. Corruption is the reason many people die on our roads because most of the money does not go to the maintenance of our roads. Half the money goes into people’s pockets while very little goes to the construction of schools and roads, resulting in shoddy infrastructure. People as young as three years die on our roads. This is pure corruption and we shall sort the culprits out.

Mr Speaker, there is corruption everywhere in this world. The Americans, British, Japanese, name them, are corrupt, but the difference between them and us is that we do not punish the corrupt sufficiently. In Zambia, corruption is adored and the corrupt are our idols. We admire hummers bought with corruptly-obtained money. We admire houses built using corruptly-obtained money. We admire everything about stolen money.

Mr Speaker, there is a difference between the people I mentioned above and ourselves. This Government has declared Zambia a corruption-free country. We, therefore, would like to see Mr Malila bringing laws to this House that will send the corrupt to jail for 150 years with the option of release on parole only after serving 100 years and forfeit everything that they and their children own, including their grandmothers’ bones, to the State to be sold to get the stolen money back. If we do not do this, Zambia will not be a corrupt-free nation. Even those who come here to give us help must be warned that our jails are not intercontinental. We will not succumb to their embassies for mercy. If they are caught corrupting our people, they will go to the same jails that the corrupted are going to. Through you, we warn the diplomatic missions in our country and the so-called investors to beware.

Finally, there has been a commission of inquiry whose members were privately sworn in at State House. The Chairperson is Hon. Lubinda while the other members are Hon. Chikwanda, Hon. Siliya and Hon. Kazonga. Their job was to go and conduct a survey of the animals at State House. They found that from 21st September, 2011, the mice population has begun to increase. However, the monkeys are becoming an endangered species and Hon. Lubinda says he wants hopanis to be at State House as a tourist attraction.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor on the ratification of the appointments of the two nominees. Firstly, I want to adopt the debate by Hon. Mwiimbu, who highlighted a number of concerns. However, I also want to make it clear that, indeed, the choice of Mr Mumba Malila and Mrs Wandi is a good one because they are credible individuals. I admit that these great citizens of Zambia and children of Africa have what it takes to hold those respective positions. I remember these two working in the New Deal Administration and of, course, performing very well. Therefore, they are still useful and can still perform excellently.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about the report of your Committee. The report very clearly admits that the circumstances under which these appointments were made are questionable. These circumstances are my concern as well. We must be very serious when we talk about corruption or good governance. It is not long ago when I talked about advising the Head of State.

Mr Speaker, I want to congratulate the President on his appointment of the two names, but I am very suspicious about what the President’s advisors told him for him to ignore the legal procedure in appointing the Director-General of the ACC. The process of ratification must first be exhausted before the names of the nominees are announced to the public. This is what I meant when I said that, if we do not advise our President on time, we might all end up being embarrassed.

The President has a lot of work in his office. This is the more reason he must always have legal, economic and political advisors at State House. These are the people to ensure that there is perfection in the work of the President. I know that the anomaly in these appointments has come as a result of the President not having his advisors at hand. This must be addressed almost immediately.

Mr Speaker, despite the fact that the Committee has agreed that, indeed, there was some oversight on this matter, we should go ahead and ratify the two nominees. I should not be misunderstood. The nominees are credible and I have no objection to their ratification, but the question is the circumstances under which the appointment of the Director-General of the ACC has been announced to the public. The right procedure has not been followed. What is the hurry all about? What mischief are we trying to speedily address? That is the concern of the public out there.

Hon. Government Members: To fight corruption.

Mr Muteteka: Yes, we have to fight corruption and I am one of the most ardent converts to the fight against corruption.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: I remember that we came up with a strategy on how to fight corruption and it started in the MMD New Deal Administration. I am happy that even the PF Government has accepted to continue with this fight. I, therefore, agree that, indeed, we have to continue this fight. We have to make sure that it is fought decisively and transparently in the eyes of our co-operating partners.

Mr Speaker, we, however, have to avoid situations that disregard the legal procedure in appointing people to public office. We do not want to set a bad precedent by allowing the President to make a mistake and continuing with ratification even after this mistake has been discovered. Why can we not start with the first things first? Why should we rush to eat food that is not yet cooked? That is the question and I am merely pointing out these shortcomings. We are here to fight corruption together with our colleagues in Government.

Mr Chilangwa: So, what are you saying?

Mr Muteteka: What I am saying is that now that we are going to have these credible children of Africa in office, we expect change and sanity. The Government needs to consult and exhaust the legal procedure before it announces the names of appointees. This is my appeal. Even before we fire some individuals from public office, it is important that we bring out the mischief they have done or what we want to cure.

Mr Speaker, it is important that this is taken into consideration. I have no objection to the ratification of the names before us, but disregarding the legal procedure is not good. These are issues that may attract impeachment tomorrow. If we allow our President to make pronouncements without exhausting the legal procedure, we should not be surprised when there is an impeachment Motion brought to this House against the Government.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: I am just advising you because it might come to that.

Hon. Government Members: You will lose.

Mr Muteteka: It can happen, but I am not going to advocate for it. This is why I am advising those on your right to be brave enough and go to advise the President even if it is in the night. I worked in the Office of the President and used to see brave Zambians coming to the President in the night to tell him not to do some things. Sometimes, the President would say that, if he was not allowed to carry out some actions, he would resign. All of us would be there to make him understand. This is the kind of approach our colleagues should take. They should not just be there to protect their jobs.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, they are not the first ones to have those jobs and, therefore, should not be so drunk or intoxicated with them.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: They should, first of all, ask themselves why they are in these offices because Zambians expect service delivery not only to the ordinary people, but also to the President. It is important that our friends that side take this advice very seriously. The Presidency is a very serious office. It is about life and death. I want to make it very clear that if they mislead the President, it will result in disaster for all of us.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: There will be no one who will survive by virtue of being in the Opposition. As long as you are a Zambian, you will be embarrassed and this is my concern.

Mr Speaker: Please, address the Chair and focus on the Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I am humbled by your guidance. As I contribute to this Motion, I have no objection to the appointment of the two nominees. I am very sure that they will deliver without fear or favour. I also want to advise and remind the nominees that they still need to be the same people I knew under the New Deal Government. It is very important that they are there for Zambians, not for the PF only. I know that the PF is the appointing authority, but it is doing so on behalf of Zambians. Therefore, we expect nothing but excellence. If they have to be fired, let it be for something they can justify in the eyes of the public. This is very important.

Mr Speaker, this matter concerns the Office of the President. Through this Motion, I urge the Government to also quickly consider appointing political, legal and economic advisors to the President. There are vacancies at State House.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, it is very important for these people to be available to be called upon at short notice by the President so that they can provide him with advice. It is in this area where we have loopholes and weaknesses. This has made us allow the President to run this country like an animal farm at some point. This is not good.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, the Presidency is an institution. President Sata is not the same person people were interacting with during the campaign. He is not the same person whom Mr Chanda Chimba was talking about. He is now the President of this country. It is important for us to bear that in mind all the time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, President Sata now occupies an institution which is protected by the Constitution. People can no longer play with him the way they did during the campaigns.

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, all those who think that they can pull a quick one on President Sata will be shocked by what may happen in future.

Hon. Government Members: Boma!

Mr Muteteka: We, on this side of the House, also talk to him.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, we shall tell him what some hon. Members are doing to embarrass this House. Some of the hon. Members are a source of embarrassment when they stand up to contribute to debate on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: How can such hon. Members think that President Sata will be happy with their performance?

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I have no apologies for rising on this point of order because I seek your guidance. Is Hon. Muteteka, Member of Parliament for Chisamba, in order to state like he did, that some hon. Members on your right are a source of embarrassment whenever they contribute to debate on the Floor of this House without him pointing at any one person he thinks is an embarrassment to him? Is he in order?

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is reminded that whatever statements are made in this House should be substantiated.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Speaker: I would further want to remind the hon. Member to focus on the Motion under discussion.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Speaker: I know that there is freedom of expression in this House, but it is also governed by defined business. I think the hon. Member will be more productive and progressive if he focuses more on the Motion.

Can the hon. Member continue?

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I am sure we are always on radio and the public is there to judge how some hon. Members from the Executive have been debating. That is all I can say regarding this matter.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, coming to the Motion, under observations and recommendations, your Committee, in its report, stated that the Republican President made public pronouncements regarding the appointments of the nominees prior to the conclusion of the ratification process by the National Assembly of Zambia. This is wrong. It is such occurrences which I am concerned about. Let us do first things first. You should not rush to eat the food before it is cooked.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before you proceed with your debates, I would like to urge you to avoid repeating the same points. Please, if a point has been made, there is no need for you to repeat it ten times over. Please, bring new points, if there are any, in relation to the Motion. Otherwise, we will not do what we are supposed to do, which is to progress efficiently.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief. In the first place, I want to support the appointments of Mr Mumba Malila, SC., and Mrs Wandi to their respective offices. Indeed, their curriculum vitae are very inspiring. I think that they are good choices for the two offices in question.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I would like to refer to the last sentence in the last paragraph of page 14 of your report which says:

 “In that regard, your Committee wishes to urge that, in future, the procedures stipulated under the law for the removal of certain public officers should be strictly adhered to so as to avoid illegality.”

 I think the Committee in this part of the report should have clearly indicated that the former Director-General of the ACC was illegally removed from office. In the second paragraph, on page 14, just before the observations and recommendations, the report only states that the hon. Minister submitted to the Committee that the Director-General was redeployed to another position in the Public Service, but instead opted to resign.

Mr Speaker, what we know is that the former Director-General resigned before he could be dismissed. Thus, one may …

Hon. Government Members: Awe!

Mr Namulambe: … wonder …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is on the Floor. Therefore, he is entitled to speak.

Mr Namulambe: … the type of illegality being talked about in the report. What illegality is there when a person resigns before another appointee is identified to take over from him/her? The Committee must have had its reasons for having stated that the former DG was made to leave his office illegally.

Mr Speaker, the Committee further recommended that Section 10 (2) of the Anti-Corruption Act must be amended. Such an amendment will put the security of tenure of this public officer at risk. Why should the Committee recommend for the removal of Section 10 (2) if there was no illegality in the way the former Director-General was made to leave his office?

Mr Speaker, I think it is important, like the hon. Deputy Minister of Defence debated earlier, for us to advise the appointing authority properly. It is important for us to acknowledge a mistake when it has been made.

Mr Mwila: Aah!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we are only going to support Motions which are progressive. We want to urge the Executive to take the law into account before it takes any action. We have seen it disregard the law when making certain decisions. Why should this be the case? We must always ensure that before any decision is made, the due process of the law is followed. There is no reason which is justifying your Committee’s recommendation that Section 10(2) of the Anti-Corruption Act be amended. We want it to remain part of our laws so that the security of tenure for the office holder is guaranteed. We want the due process of the law to be followed if Mrs Wandi is found wanting.

Mr Speaker, the people who are being removed from office have families. We do not want witch-hunting or people to be removed from office just because they were appointed by the former President.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: There is a need to follow the due process of the law whenever something is being done. We shall support this Government only when it does things correctly.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor. From the outset, I would like to state that whenever the President makes an announcement with respect to an appointment to a particular office, which requires certain procedures under various laws to be followed, it is merely a declaration of intent.

Mr Lubinda: Ndiye ma Lawyer aya, George!

Interruptions

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, such an appointment can only take effect when the various procedures under the relevant laws have been complied with.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Dr Simbyakula: In any case, this House has the right to withhold the ratification if it feels that the particular appointment is not correct.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I am worried about the way my learned friend is debating. The way certain appointments are announced is connected to the practices of this particular House. The hon. Mr Speaker has guided this House before regarding such issues. Precedents have been set in this House on how matters which are before your Committees are to be announced. Is the debater in order to mislead the nation that what he is propagating is the procedure of this House? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: I think we all heard the presentation which was made regarding the findings of the Select Committee. As we debate, let us take its findings into account. The Committee did fully address the issue which has been raised in the point of order in its report. As we contribute to the debate on the Floor of this House, let us take into account its position over the issue.

May the hon. Deputy Minister, continue.

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, I thank you for your guidance. I have taken note of what the Committee said regarding the issue which was raised in the point of order.

Mr Speaker, I was privileged to be one of Mr Malila’s lecturers when he read for his law degree at the University of Zambia (UNZA) in the School of Law in the early 1980s. I can inform this House that Mr Malila, SC., graduated at the top of his class. The PF Government only goes for quality.

Mr Lubinda: Not quantity.

Dr Simbyakula: In fact, he started exhibiting his qualities in his early university days. I can vouch for that.

Mr Malila, SC., has served with distinction as Commissioner and Vice-Chairperson of the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights for the last six years. As my colleagues who spoke before me have said, he served with distinction under the Mwanawasa Administration as Attorney-General. Therefore, I have no doubt that Mr Malila, SC., is eminently qualified to run the Office of Attorney-General.

As for Mrs Rosewin Wandi, I have also known her from her student days in the School of Law at UNZA in the 1970s. She has spent all her working life, apart from the two years that she served at the Ministry of Lands, working in the field of enforcing anti-corruption laws.

During her twenty-eight years in the fight against corruption in Zambia, Mrs Wandi has served in the Kaunda, Chiluba, Mwanawasa and Banda administrations. Under all the administrations, she served with distinction and honour. Thus, she rose to the position of Deputy Director-General. Her employment was prematurely terminated by the immediate past administration on your left because of her allergy to corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mrs Wandi is eminently qualified for appointment to the position of Director-General. What makes it even better is that by appointing Mrs Wandi to such a position, we, as the PF Government, are showing, in practical terms, our continued commitment to seriously addressing the gender imbalance which has hitherto existed in our governance structures. I support both appointments.

Mr Speaker, since I still have the Floor, I seek your indulgence to make my maiden speech. I wish to join others who have spoken before me in congratulating His Excellency President Michael Chilufya Sata on his election as Fifth President of the Republic of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: It has been ten years of hard work and planning. We must never forget the old adage which says that “Where there is a will, there is always a way”.

Mr Speaker, permit me also to congratulate you on your well-deserved election to the position of Speaker. Having known you as much as I do from the time we were both lecturers in the School of Law at UNZA, I have no shadow of doubt that your qualifications, character and vast experience have prepared you well for the task that the Zambian people, through their representatives gathered here, have placed on your shoulders.

Mr Muntanga: Niva kudala!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I also wish to congratulate the hon. Member for Lundazi, Mr Mkhondo Lungu, and the hon. Member for Chasefu, Mr Chifumu Banda, SC., on their election as Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairperson of the Committees of the Whole House, respectively.

Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate all the hon. Members of Parliament from my party, the PF, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: … on emerging victorious in their respective constituencies. I know how tough it was for them because, unlike other parties who painted this country blue, the PF did not give anyone of them a single ngwee. Each one of them had to rely on his/her power of persuasion and the PF manifesto.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, if the PF did not fund any of its candidates, what legal right does it have to restrain any of its losing candidates from petitioning their election results?

Mr Speaker, permit me to also congratulate all the hon. Members of Parliament on your left, both the new and old ones, on winning the elections. Special congratulations go to my elder brother, Hon. Vitalis Mooya from Moomba Constituency, who I refer to as my hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, I say so because the village where my father comes from, Bansanje in Monze, is situated in his constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, it never ceases to amaze me how God brings people to work together after going in separate directions. Apart from you, it is so good to be able to work together, again, with Hon. Imenda who is the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena. Hon. Imenda and I went for Zambia National Service training in 1973 when we were at UNZA. We found ourselves in the same platoon.

Mr Speaker, having spent a good part of my life teaching at UNZA, in the School of Law, I now feel a great sense of joy to be able to work with some of my former students who have risen to eminent positions in our society. I always marvel at the eloquence of the hon. Member for Choma Central, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu …

Hon. UPND Members: Monze Central.

Dr Simbyakula: My apology, Sir. I meant to mention the name of the hon. Member for Monze Central, Mr Jack Mwiimbu.

Sir, I also find this august House such a joyous place to be because, herein, I find my other former students, namely the hon. Member for Choma Central, Mr C. Mweetwa; the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning; the hon. Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, and the Deputy Clerk for Administration.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I also want to congratulate my former classmate in the School of Law, hon. Member for Muchinga, on his re-election.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Ema  curriculum vitae (CV) ayo.

Dr Simbyakula: Hon. Kunda, SC., and the Clerk of the National Assembly and I were actually in the same class.

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula:  Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to express gratitude to my President, His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, for nominating me to Parliament and appointing me as Deputy Minister of Justice.

Mr Speaker, for better or worse, on 20th September, 2011, the Zambian people spoke very loudly and clearly that they had decided to entrust the stewardship of this great nation into the hands of the PF. The people of Zambia, however, decided to give us a hung Parliament. In doing so, the Zambian people are saying something to us as parliamentarians.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

You may continue.

Dr Simbyakula: They are saying that all parties in this House, essentially, have a common development agenda for Zambia and, therefore, are in the same boat, mu bwato, mwa mukolo, and we must work together. The people of Zambia are saying that time for politicking is over. Let us roll up our sleeves and get to work. There are more things that bind us together than divide us.

Most of us, on your right hand side, Mr Speaker, were in the original MMD. In fact, it is a well-known fact that His Excellency the President was the longest serving National Secretary of the MMD. The reason the MMD lost the last election is that it deviated too much from its original manifesto. I can reveal here that the original manifesto of the MMD was written largely by members from this side of the House. Some of them are the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, myself and His Honour the Vice-President. My advice is that if you want to join a winning team that is able to prepare a winning manifesto, please, join the PF.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, a hung Parliament means that every hon. Member’s vote is very crucial. The last two occasions when we had to vote, the issues were decided by a single vote. All of us must approach our responsibilities here with seriousness of purpose. The Zambian people will not take kindly to any attempts to derail the development agenda.

Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President, in his address to this august House, said that the PF Government attaches great importance to good governance. To this end, the Ministry of Justice will, in accordance with the PF manifesto, ensure that the rule of law, social justice and the justice delivery system is enhanced in Zambia. As a Government, we will promote good governance through strengthening the governance institutions and ensuring accountability.

Mr Speaker, we want to produce a people-driven Constitution for the people of Zambia. They have waited too long for it. Is it not a shame that we, as a very senior country in this region, are still wallowing in the wilderness without a proper constitution? We will, therefore, ask our colleagues on both sides of the House to support that endeavour.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Members who have debated this Motion, especially for accepting it on the Floor. Special thanks go to Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Hon. Colonel Panji Kaunda, Hon. Moses Muteteka, Hon. Gabriel Namulambe and Hon. Dr Ngosa Simbyakula.

Mr Speaker, the former Director-General  of the ACC resigned, but it appears Hon. Mwiimbu seems to have known something strange about his resignation.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kapeya: May I request Hon. Mwiimbu, if he has anything special ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

I think that ground has already been covered and the function of the hon. Member now is simply to wind up debate.

The hon. Member for Mpika Central may continue.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to this debate.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

REVIEW OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS CURRICULUM

Mr Kunda, SC. (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, this Motion is non-controversial and I am sure that all hon. Members will support it. The Motion is aimed at encouraging the Government to review the Human Rights Curriculum for the Zambia Police Force and other security agencies.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kunda, SC. Mr Speaker, in the first fifty-three days of the PF rule, the conduct of some of the police officers, in particular, has deteriorated to unprecedented levels.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda, SC.: They are violating the fundamental rights of citizens, especially those of members of opposition political parties, with impunity.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kunda, SC.: They are on rampage, brutalising the civilians they are supposed to protect.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, this Motion is also timely in view of the budget allocations that we will be approving for various security agencies, including the Zambia Police Force. In this regard, we shall have to decide whether to approve budget allocations for some of the security agencies.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kunda, SC.: The question is: should we approve budget allocations for security agencies that violate human rights?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Mr Kunda, SC.: I know it is very painful to hear this, but give me a chance to speak.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: It is a Motion. They can also debate.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police Force and other security agencies occupy a special place in our democratic environment. The enjoyment of rights and freedoms in a democratic environment depends, to a large extent, on the devotion of the police force and other security agencies such as the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the ACC and the Zambia Security Intelligence Service (ZSIS) towards respect for human rights and dignity.

Mr Speaker, we all know that democracy is a system of governance which encourages and allows the rights of citizens, such as the freedom of speech, religion, opinion and association, the assertion of the rule of law and majority rule accompanied by respect for the rights of the minority.

A democracy is also a society in which all people are treated as equals. Thus, democracy is not only about the right to elect representatives of your choice, but also about the enjoyment of human rights and freedoms. In Zambia, we should all endeavour to strengthen the system of democracy and members of security agencies have a role to play in this.

Mr Speaker, it is now universally accepted that police officers and other security agencies in any civilised society should respect human rights. In fact, I wish to quote from a speech presented by the former Inspector-General of Police, Mr F. K. Njovu, at the Advanced Workshop on Human Rights and the Law hosted by the Zambia Council of Legal Education, in Lusaka, from 13th to 17th July, 1998. At this seminar, Mr Njovu had this to say in respect of the Zambia Police Force:

 “The Zambia Police Force has a constitutional mandate to protect life and property, maintain law and order, detect crime and apprehend offenders. In short, it must ensure peace and stability prevail in the country at all times. This is in accordance with the requirements stipulated by Article 104 of the Republican Constitution which states the functions of the Police Force which shall be to:

(a) protect life and property;

(b) preserve law and order;

(c) detect and prevent crime; and …”

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: Hon. Members, especially hon. Ministers, are not supposed to make running commentaries. This is what we have been talking about.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Kunda, SC., address the Chair, please.

Mr Kunda, SC.: …

“(d) co-operate with the civilian authority and other security agencies and the population, generally.

“It must be stressed that Article 104 is born out of the recognition that the Bill of Rights enshrined in the Republican Constitution, under Article 11, would be meaningless without law enforcement which must ensure peace and stability. It must be understood, therefore, that the primary interest of the Zambia Police Force is the protection of people’s fundamental rights and freedoms such as the freedom of movement, association, religion, speech and the rights to enjoy and own property.

“Given that the protection of enjoyment of human rights is constitutionally guaranteed, the police force should take steps to ensure that the process of protection of the enjoyment of these liberties and freedoms, through preservation of law and order, is not abused or rendered ineffectual.”

The former Inspector- General further said:

 “During the First and Second Republics, the Police Force was both militaristic and partisan. It was alienated from the people it was meant to serve. In 1995, the Government approved a programme to reform the police as an institution. The crux of the reform was respect for human rights and accountability to the law and the Zambian community in the execution of police duties. In doing this, the police officers have a constitutional obligation to co-operate with the population at large.”

Mr Speaker, from the above quotation, it is clear that the need to respect human rights by law enforcement officers, particularly those in the Zambia Police Force, has been endorsed by the Government.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Mr Kunda, SC.: In fact, in the past, it has been the Government’s policy to encourage the respect for human rights among security officers, whatever their ranks are. Under the PF Government, unfortunately, the Zambia Police Force is becoming more oppressive and is drifting in the wrong direction.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda, SC.: The United Nations (UN) Charter laid the legal and conceptual foundation for modern human rights law. The UN Charter declared to be one of the purposes of the UN to promote universal respect for human rights and all members of the UN, including Zambia, have pledged, in Articles 1 and 56 of the Charter, to achieve that purpose.

In furtherance of the important object of promoting human rights, the UN unanimously proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights through its General Assembly on 10th December, 1948. By the way, the date is commemorated every year by the worldwide observance of the Human Rights Day. The declaration is the first comprehensive human rights instrument proclaimed to apply universally and is a milestone in mankind’s struggle for freedom and human dignity. It was evidence of consensus and commitment to human rights on the part of the nations of the world.

The preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights contains some of the justification for the protection of human rights in the following terms:

(i) the inherent dignity and equal inalienable rights of all members of the human family are foundations of freedom, justice and peace in the world;

(ii) the disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind;

(iii) it is essential, if man or woman is not to be compelled to have recourse to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law; and

(iv) the protection of human rights is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations.

Sir, the purpose of the declaration was to establish a common understanding of the rights and freedoms to which the member states of the UN had committed themselves. The declaration, in particular, declares that no one shall be subjected to torture or cruel inhuman, degrading treatment or punishment, and that no one shall be arbitrarily arrested, detained or exiled.

Mr Speaker, human rights impose on governments the obligation to facilitate their enjoyment and protection. This may require the Government to plan, regulate tax and spend money. Traditionally, human rights have been viewed as imposing negative obligations on the Government. That is that the Government should not interfere with the exercise of individual rights.

Sir, in this sense, they have been considered as devices for limiting Government’s power against the individual. The rights referred to here are civil and political rights.

Mr Speaker, the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights adopted by the 18th Conference of Heads of State and Government of the Organisation of the African Unity (OAU), now African Union (AU), in June, 1981, at Nairobi, Kenya, also provides for what are termed as human and people’s rights.

Sir, African governments, including Zambia, which is a member of the AU, have bound themselves to respect and uphold rights in their states.

Mr Speaker, it is important to mention that Zambia is also a member of the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) and the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The ICC has become famous for pursuing fugitives accused of serious crimes of genocide and crimes against humanity in their own countries. In most cases, these are government leaders who have abused their own people and set security agencies on them.

Sir, the serious human rights abuses committed against members of the Opposition in the first fifty days of PF rule raise serious questions about the Government’s commitment to upholding human rights.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, where are we going? Is the PF committed to democracy? One may ask.

Sir, members of the MMD and UPND have been brutalised and still being intimidated …

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: … merely because of their political views and affiliation.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Mr Kunda, SC.: Although the MMD Government handed over power peacefully, our members are still being beaten up and forced to join the PF.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: Sir, the MMD and UPND members are living in fear and without any protection from the police. Zambia has been turned into a police State by the PF Government.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: It is as if we are in a state of emergency. Many sympathisers of the Opposition …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that the MMD and UPND members are living in fear and without any protection from the police and that Zambia has been turned into a police State by the PF Government …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kunda, SC.:  … and that it is as if we are in a state of emergency. Many sympathisers of the Opposition have had their property destroyed and their homes broken into. Others have had their homes illegally searched. Is it an offence to belong to an opposition political party?

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: Again, the police are being used by the PF candidates who lost elections to gather evidence through threats and blackmail. They are boasting that the Judiciary now belongs to them and will have the elections nullified against the hon. MMD Members of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, is this the rule of law which our President talks about? Bicycles bought by hon. MMD Members from their own resources are seized, even from poor villagers, merely because they used those bicycles as transport to campaign for the MMD.

Sir, bicycles and motor vehicles have been used for campaigns from time immemorial. They were used even when the current President was National Secretary of the MMD. In rural areas, in particular, it is very difficult to campaign without bicycles because of long distances. Properties given by hon. MMD Members of Parliament as part of their philanthropic duty, before dissolution of Parliament, are being seized.

Mr Speaker, one wonders how the PF campaigned, especially in rural areas. Did they not use bicycles, money and motor vehicles?

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: I know, for example, and it is common knowledge, that our President campaigned using chartered aeroplanes. The plane, money and motor vehicles certainly came from well-wishers and supporters of the PF.

Mr Speaker, therefore, is it reasonable for the PF and their police agents to assume that the MMD used public or Government funds and not money from well-wishers? This assumption is preposterous. In some MMD constituencies, the police, on PF authorities and cadres’ instructions, have seized or threatened to seize hammer mills and other properties on the pretext that they are Government property.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kunda, SC.: However, such property was given to constituencies, including PF constituencies, as part of the Government empowerment programme aimed at reducing poverty. This property was properly budgeted for by this august House. According to the laws of this country, which will also apply to the PF, development of the country and developmental programmes continue, whether there are elections or by-elections or not. For example, at the moment, there are by-elections, but development must continue. This was the case even under the MMD. We know the idea behind these maneuvers by the police and the PF. It is to exterminate the MMD.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, this is not democracy. Why do you want to introduce a one-party State in this country, President Sata? Is this the change which the people of Zambia voted for?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia do not want a dictatorship such as the one we had in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days. We want to make progress. Under the MMD rule, we allowed democracy to flourish. People, including our current President who was in the Opposition, could insult our President with impunity. Even some nonentities could insult him. We never charged them with insulting the President ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May those who specialise in debating while seated take into account that I am interested in following the debate?

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kunda, SC.: … though this was an offence. We did not want to appear autocratic and tyrannical. For the incumbent President, we are yet to see whether he is tolerant. We handed over power peacefully and made it possible for the people to test the change they wanted.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: These hon. Ministers are very disorderly.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May the hon. Member continue and ignore the hecklers.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Sir, if we had resisted and allowed our members to defend themselves or take the law into their own hands, we would have experienced genocide or a commission of serious crimes against humanity. By now, the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Mr Luis Moreno-Ocampo, would have moved in ...

Laughter

Mr Kunda, SC.: … to arrest people and send them to the Hague to answer charges of crimes against humanity. Those in Government must be reminded that it is their responsibility to obverse human rights and respect human dignity. In this regard, the law enforcement agencies must review the Human Rights Curriculum for security officers. At the moment, there is lawlessness and the police are being used to break the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda, SC.: There is no professionalism in the security officers. One wonders whether police officers are still being trained in human rights. If such training is still being carried out, then the curriculum needs to be reviewed. Those of us in the Opposition should bring human rights violations in Zambia to the attention of the International Criminal Court, the UN and the AU. We should write to these institutions if our own Government cannot provide protection. At the moment, the PF leaders are not condemning such acts of thuggery and barbarism publicly. Why is it like that? There has been no statement condemning violence from the Head of State.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: We need such a statement urgently from our President.

Mr Speaker, people have talked about corruption, but we know that even corrupt people can talk loudly about corruption so as to divert attention. It is common knowledge that talking loudly on top of one’s voice against corruption will not cleanse the person.

Mr Speaker, I seek the support of hon. Members on this Motion.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Muntanga: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding this Motion, I wish to state that in view of the absence of the human rights curriculum for police training, this House urges the Government to institute a human rights curriculum for law enforcement agencies in the country.

Sir, this Motion is straightforward and non-controversial and, therefore, deserves support from both sides of the House. This has nothing to do with any particular government, be it the PF, UNIP or the MMD governments. In all these governments, there have been serious human rights violations.  Therefore, this has nothing to do with any particular government.

Mr Speaker, I wish to bring out the concept and content of human rights and the curriculum for our security personnel.

Sir, human rights are rights that belong to an individual or group of individuals as a consequence of being human. They refer to a wide continuum of values or capabilities thought to enhance human dignity and are declared to be universal in character.

It is a common observation that human beings everywhere demand the realisation of diverse values or capabilities to ensure their individual and collective well-being. It is also a common observation that this demand is often painfully frustrated by social as well as natural forces, resulting in exploitation, oppression, persecution and other forms of deprivation.

 Deeply rooted in these twin observations is the beginning of what is today called human rights and the international legal processes that have been enshrined in various constitutive acts to preserve them. Therefore, human rights are the rights that one has simply because one is human.

Human rights are claims that every individual has or should have in every society, irrespective of geographical, historical, sub-cultural, ideological, political, economic systems or stage of development. They do not depend on gender, race, class or status. Human rights are, therefore, claims and not merely appeals to grace, charity, brotherhood or love, nor are they aspirations or assertions of good, but claims of entitlement and corresponding obligations.

Mr Speaker, in view of the foregoing, the major characteristics of human rights can be summarised as follows:

(i) they are universal;

(ii) they are inalienable;

(iii) they are invincible, interdependent and interrelated;

(iv) they derive from the dignity and worth of the human person; and

(v) their enjoyment is based on the principle of non-discrimination.

Mr Speaker, the content of human rights is in three generations of rights. Like all normative tradition, the human rights tradition is a product of its time. Therefore, to understand better the debate over the content and legitimate scope of human rights and the priorities claimed among them, it is useful to note the dominant schools of thought and action that have informed the human rights tradition since the beginning of modern times.

Mr Speaker, particularly helpful in this regard is the notion of three generations of human rights advanced by the French jurist Karel Vasak. Inspired by the three themes of the French Revolution, these are the first generation of civil and political rights (liberte); the second generation of economic, social and cultural rights (egalite); and the third generation of solidarity rights (fraternite).

Vasak’s model is, of course, a simplified expression of an extremely complex historical record, and is not intended to suggest a linear process in which each generation gives birth to the next and then dies away, nor is it to imply that one generation is more important than the other. The three generations are understood to be cumulative and overlapping, and it is important to note their interdependency and interpenetrating nature.

Mr Speaker, the first generation of human rights, the civil and political rights (liberte), is mainly enjoyed on an individual basis by every person and is of immediate application. The state has an obligation to refrain from interfering with their enjoyment. They limit the state’s action vis-à-vis the individual. They are justiciable, meaning that it is possible to pursue a legal remedy in respect of them in an ordinary court of law. 

However, the fact that these rights are immediate; that they impose obligations on states not to interfere with their enjoyment and the fact that they are justiciable, should not be overstated. The same or similar elements may be found in other generations.

Mr Speaker, even though the second generation of human rights, the economic, social and cultural rights (egalite) are mainly goals that the state has to achieve, some of them raise the same obligations as those of the first generation. However, most of the economic, social and cultural rights can be realised progressively through positive state intervention. They can both be individual and group rights. Traditionally, the second generation rights have generally not been justiciable. However, there is a growing trend towards their justiciability in international and domestic law. 

Mr Speaker, the third generation of rights, solidarity or group rights (franternite) is enjoyed with others in the community. Although it is ultimately the individual who suffers from violation, violations of this generation of rights are not targeted at individuals. They include the right to development, peace, self-determination and indigenous and minority rights.

Mr Speaker, in view of the importance and universal nature of human rights, it is imperative that they are observed by everyone. In this regard, law enforcement agencies such as the police are supposed to observe human rights as they carry out their duties.

Sir, as you may be aware, the Zambia Police Force is the largest department in the Ministry of Home Affairs. Its mandate is to preserve life, protect property, maintain law and order and apprehend and prosecute offenders. The Zambia Police has three training institutions, namely Lilayi Police Service, School of Public Order Maintenance and Paramilitary. In these schools the following is taught among other things,:

(i) police duties;

Criminal Law;

(ii) Criminal Procedure Code;

(iii) Statutes

(iv) Criminal Investigations; and

(v) First Aid and Human Rights.

Mr Speaker, notwithstanding the fact that there are other law enforcement agencies such as the ACC and the DEC, the police are a permanent legal structure that is literally present in all countries for the purpose of maintaining law and order. For this reason, there is a need for a proper and comprehensive curriculum for them to effectively promote good governance, the rule of law, peace and, ultimately, uphold human rights.

However, in Zambia, there is no comprehensive curriculum on human rights. Instead, the Zambia Police relies on manuals that outline human rights issues in brief, such as the Southern African Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation (SARPCCO), which is not directly intended for the Zambian situation and, as such, not conducive and beneficial to police training in our country.

Mr Speaker, there is, therefore, an urgent need to revise the current human rights curriculum used in our country for the training of police officers and other security agents by incorporating all international treaties and conventions on human rights that Zambia is party to.

Mr Speaker, as already indicated, the Zambia Police Service does not have the human rights training manual, but only uses the SARPCCO resource book and related constitutional and statutory provisions for training purposes.

Mr Speaker, SARPCCO was formed in August, 1995, at a meeting for Police Chiefs held at Victoria Falls, Zimbabwe. At that meeting, it was felt that there was a need to seek practical means for regional co-operation by law enforcement agencies. This co-operation was to target strategic issues, such as human rights, that govern good and proper policing. In order to attain shared anti-criminal objectives, human rights issues were identified as important learning subjects for basic police training, not as a stand-alone course.

Further, the police, with the help of the Home Affairs Research and Information Department, also realised the need of domesticating the SARPCCO Code of Conduct to suit the Zambian situation.

Mr Speaker, the revision of the SARPCCO manual was a very important undertaking because human rights are universal and apply to all persons irrespective of their political, economic, cultural or social standing in the community. The manual, as revised to suit the Zambian situation, is intended to add value to the role of the Police Service in the protection of human rights in Zambia.

Sir, there are also other security wings in the country that work in tandem with the Police Service. These, too, need to be well-informed on matters of human rights as they execute their duties. After all, it is the same people they deal with. As such, they are not excluded from observing their rights.

    Mr Speaker, it is to be acknowledged that the security agencies do not execute the same goals. The different roles do not, however, bar one or more such security agencies from the demands of observing human rights or, indeed, learning them. However, as is the case in the Zambia Police Force, much remains to be done to have a comprehensive curriculum for training security agencies in human rights.

Mr Speaker, the thrust of this Motion, therefore, is to urge the Government to institute measures which will give rise to human rights curricula for the training of personnel in security agencies. Its thrust is not to support the breaking or violation of human rights.

Sir, suffice to state that given the availability of human and material resources on human rights issues in Zambia, it is possible to satisfactorily mount an independent course on human rights for the Zambia Police Force and other security agencies in the country. This will help to fill in the gaps in the enforcement of human rights by the security agencies in the country. Further, it will help protect the reputation and standing of the security agencies in the eyes of many Zambians who, for a long time, have rightly or wrongly created a perception that these agencies lack commitment to the upholding of human rights when executing their duties, especially as regards those of citizens under arrest, detention or imprisonment.

Furthermore, there is a need for the ministries concerned to prepare a cabinet memorandum proposing the domestication of key human rights Acts and conventions, including ethical policing as part of our efforts to make the observance of human rights in Zambia a reality.

Mr Speaker, whenever there is a change of Government, there is a tendency by some people to talk about human right abuses which they never used to talk about. Presently, some people want to start condemning the PF for the human rights abuse cases which are occurring under its reign. There is no need to do that. There are a number of cases which happened during the MMD reign.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the problem with politicians is that they forget to get to the root cause of a problem in order to come up with a solution. They instead opt to scratch the surface of the problem. The main problem behind the human rights abuse cases is the lack of curricula on human rights for law enforcement agencies. The Zambia Police Force had been using the same curriculum to train its cadre during the reigns of UNIP and the MMD. It still uses the same curriculum even today. We are saying that we need to sort out this problem once and for all.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: Why bring it now?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, when you are faced with a problem, it is best that you attend to what has caused it rather than complain about similar ones which happened earlier. We have repeatedly complained about the continued occurrence of incidents similar to those which happened in Mufumbwe without acknowledging the fact that they are caused by the non-existence of a human rights curriculum for law enforcement agencies. The police officers only use manuals to learn about human rights. It is for this reason that we are urging the Government to put in place a curriculum which will ensure that when, we, in the UPND take over the running of this country, we will not be accused of abusing the police.

Mr Mushanga: You will not take over!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I appeal to everyone in this House to focus their attention on the real issues. Let us not defend issues anyhow.

Mr Speaker, I do not see any problem in someone explaining clearly how his/ her rights have been abused.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: The only problem we have in this whole scenario is the lack of a curriculum on human rights for law enforcement agencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to all the hon. Members to critically analyse the Motion on the Floor of the House. Debating as if we are fighting a battle will not help us to sort out the problem at hand in any way. If we are not careful, those in Government may end up throwing away ideas which can help them run this country properly. I believe that they have understood what I have said in my debate.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House. I rise to render my support to this very non-controversial and progressive Motion on the Floor of the House.

Sir, if I had been allowed to speak earlier, I would have said that I was rendering conditional support on the basis that the Motion should move on its merits and not on the acts by the PF or MMD cadres.

Mr Chisala: What about the UPND?

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, as it has already been stated earlier, human rights are actually at the centre of human dignity and, in fact, for this House, at the centre of governance. That is why Part III of the Constitution does not only provide for human rights like the rest of the articles in the Constitution which are simply provided for, and may be changed or amended by this House at will, but are actually entrenched in it. This means that they can only be changed through a very rigorous process that must justify the need for such amendments.

Mr Speaker, the need to review the human rights curriculum for the Police Force is beyond dispute. The need for this to be done is great because some law enforcing agencies have now been loaded with more duties than the ones they were initially created for.

As a former police officer, I am aware that the Zambia Police Force is currently carrying out a lot of work for which it was not initially constituted. For example, currently, in the Zambia Police Force, there is a very important wing called the Victim Support Unit (VSU) which looks at cases of violence against women which have become rampant in society. This includes defilement, issues to do with pulling young girls out of school so that they can be married off and those to do with property grabbing. All these issues are now being handled by a police force which was not constituted for such purposes.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: I thought that by now it would be necessary for all and sundry in this House, to begin to look at issues realistically and not in a partisan way. That is why I wished that I had contributed earlier to the debate. Then, I would have stated that the debate on the Motion should not have been allowed to lean on the post-election activities allegedly involving PF cadres hunting down the MMD or UPND sympathisers. It must be placed on record that the behaviour of PF cadres is as a result of the way the MMD cadres used to behave when their party was in power.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mweetwa: I would be glad to be part of a House that looks at issues realistically and not looking at who has proposed the Motion. This Motion should not be shot down just because it has been proposed by an hon. Member of Parliament from the MMD. Instead, we must focus on its merits.

Mr Speaker, I do not wish to say much because the Motion has been well crafted. The police officers out there are over loaded with duties which are beyond their original mandate. Therefore, it is only fair that this House urges the Government to revise the human rights curriculum of the law enforcement agencies so that we can now create an opportunity for capacity building in the Zambia Police Force. The police officers need to be taught the human rights which they need to observe for good governance purposes. When this is done, credit will go to the PF Government.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. As much as the Motion has some connotations of good will, it is being pushed by a totally wrong person, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: … the hon. Member for Muchinga, in Serenje, a former Leader of Government Business in this House.

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Chilangwa: Is it not under Hon. Kunda .SC.’s watch that we saw …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order which impacts on the work of this House. Is the hon. Member for Kawambwa in order to state that one of us is a wrong person to qualify to bring a Motion to this House? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

To the extent that Hon. Kunda, SC., is an hon. Member of Parliament, he qualifies to move a Motion in this House. May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, before I was disrupted by the hon. Member for Mumbwa, Dr Brian Chituwo, I was saying that was it not under the watch of Hon. Kunda, SC., that people who were expressing their views in Mongu, were brutalised and maimed and some of them shot at? Is it not under his watch that people who were peacefully watching football in Mazabuka, were shot at by police officers? Was it not under his watch that peaceful people who were expressing their views, in Mansa, were burnt, killed and shot at and the scars are still fresh there? Was it not under his watch that a young girl was shot at in Garden Compound for no obvious reasons?

Mr Speaker, to the contrary, ever since the PF formed Government, people have been protesting. They have been aggrieved about their wages and conditions of service all over the country, but no single person has been shot at.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, under the PF Government, tank drivers, over the last few days, have failed to move fuel out of Indeni and our security personnel have been there, but no single person has been arrested, maimed or shot at. Is it not the same Zambia Police Force that the MMD was using? The Police Force in this country is well trained and its curriculum is excellent, but the problem was the commander, the man at the top.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, the commander is the reason that the Zambia Police Force, which was brutalising and killing people, is, today, playing the role of peacemaker. Now that there is a right commander, the police are doing the right things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to believe that the Motion on the Floor is ill-intended, frivolous and malicious. I do not believe that Hon. Kunda, SC., can, today, stand up and rise against the brutality of the police which he defended. On the Floor of this House, Hon. Kunda SC., once said that, indeed, the police were in order to kill men and shoot at people in Mongu. Why did he, on that particular day, not rise to the occasion and state that the curriculum would be reviewed?

Interruptions

 Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, how come Hon. Kunda, SC., has risen to say the curriculum is wrong? What has happened? What has changed within the forty-five days of the PF’s rule? What has gone wrong? I wish to say that the Motion should be thrown out because it is not well meant.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, this Motion is historical. I state, very categorically, on behalf of the people of Zambia and on our own behalf here, that when issues are presented to this House, we should consider them on their own merit.

I do recall …

Mr Mwewa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: … that it is not allowed to speak on behalf of others in this House.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, is it in order for us to be listening to the same voice from morning until now? I have been seeing that hon. Member rising and this is the third time he has risen. Why is this so?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I bear with my brother considering that he is still a greenhorn and does not understand the procedures of this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying that it may not be allowed to speak on behalf of other hon. Members. However, as I was seated here, I was listening to my brother, the hon. Member for Zambezi West, who could not rise to speak on this Motion because of the intransigencies that occurred in the past at the hands of the Zambia Police Force.

Mr Speaker, if my brother, Hon. Nkombo, was in this House, he would have risen emotionally to speak about the issues that happened in Mazabuka. I am also aware that our brothers in Mongu always raise these issues of police brutality with emotions. I am also aware that if our brothers and sisters in Mansa are given an opportunity to speak about police brutality, they would be very emotional. That is a fact, but we should note that the intransigencies and illegal activities of the police that were perpetuated under the former Government, as it has been stated, should not be tolerated and should be condemned by all of us.

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: However, this should not be an excuse on our part not to take corrective measures. If we find that something is amiss on the part of the Zambia Police Force, we should put corrective measures in place.

Mr Speaker, when the PF Government came into power, it realised that there was abuse of power on the part of the police. Therefore, it resolved to remove most of those who were in command because they had violated the laws. If the Government has noted that violations are taking place, why should we take a blind eye and ignore all those violations just because the Motion has been moved by Hon. George Kunda, SC.?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: I hear the sentiments of those on your right and understand those of my people in Mazabuka. I know how they feel because I also feel the same way. There are cases such as that of Hon. Kakoma that have not been resolved to date.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: This is because the police are not adequately trained to enforce the law professionally. That is the issue.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: My plea to my colleagues is that let us consider this matter on its merit and allow the process of cleaning up to take place. I know that they are already cleaning up. If there was no mess, why are they cleaning up? They are doing it because there are people who have been cited to have violated the law in enforcement agencies such as the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). I am aware of one of our former cadres who was doing illegal things at DEC against the PF. He was fired because of violating the law. For us to ensure that such things are curbed, let us find a commonality to ensure that they do not recur.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is my plea to hon. Members on your right. I do not care who moves the Motion. As long as it is done in the interest of the people of this country and for the betterment of everyone, including hon. Government Members, I will support it. That is why I am appealing to hon. Members’ souls and consciences.

As a Catholic, I believe in the Ten Commandments and one of the virtues of being a Catholic is to forgive. May we forgive those who have offended us. Maybe, we should not forget, but we should forgive them and consider this Motion on its own merit.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, I thank you for letting me contribute to debate on this Motion which has not been moved in good faith. I am a little bit confused because I tend to think that the words used by the mover of the Motion and those used by the seconder are such that we have two different Motions on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, the mover of this Motion has no moral right to bring such a Motion on the Floor of this House. He has forgotten that it is only forty-five days ago when he was sitting where we are sitting. I am a victim of his brutality when he was in Government. I was arrested just for honking. Somebody passed in front of my vehicle and I honked. I was arrested together with Hon. Mumbi Phiri who was driving behind me. I want the mover of this Motion to tell us how many members of the previous Government we have arrested in the forty-five days that we have been in power.

Hon. Government Members: None!

Ms Kapata: I was arrested and was in the cells for three days. The officer who allowed us to go to the hospital was transferred from the station he was operating from and, today, the former Vice-President wants to call for human rights.

Hon. Government Members: Shame, shame!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I can give a lot of examples if I had to mention one by one the names of those who have been victims of the brutality of the previous regime. Hon. Kambwili is one of the victims of arrest. Hon. Davies Mwila is also one of them. Hon. Mwenya Musenge has also suffered at the hands of the MMD. Today, those on your left want to call for the change of the human rights curriculum of law enforcement agencies. Where were they when all these things were happening?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I remember very well that Mr Sata, who is now the President of this country, suffered at the hands of the MMD. He was arrested for forty days, tear-gassed at the DEC offices and his vehicles were confiscated. Where was Hon. Kunda, SC., at that particular time? Where were the human rights that he is talking about today?

Mr Speaker, during the run up to the last general elections, we had a man by the name of Mr William Banda, who was the MMD Lusaka Provincial Chairman. He went to Chongwe and hacked and beat up a lot of people, including women and children.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, children and women were battered. People’s buttocks we hacked open. All of this was in the newspapers.

Hon. Government Members: Where was the Reverend?

Ms Kapata: Where was the Reverend himself who now wants to raise a point of order here?

Laughter

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, there were many killings. My colleagues have already mentioned the incidents in Mansa, Mazabuka and Mongu. In my own constituency, a child was killed. Where were the human rights when I was running up and down to sort out this issue? The MMD tried to assault me at the funeral, even after they had killed this child. Where were the human rights, Mr Kunda, SC.? This is really a very emotional matter because this Motion is a mockery and I think we are not going to support it. I think the Opposition has to go back and think about what they have done.

Mr Speaker, at one time, I brought a Private Member’s Motion in this House in which I wanted the rights of children to be protected. The previous Government threw it out, and yet the Motion was well intended, as I was asking the Government to give birth certificates to children when they are born. When people die, they are given death certificates. So, why can we not give a child a birth certificate when he/she is born? This would ease the process of getting a National Registration Card (NRC) when a child turns sixteen. The hon. Members on your left threw this Motion out and, today, Mr Kunda, SC., wants to come and tell us about human rights.

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, as far we are concerned, on this side of the House, there are two Motions on the Floor. The mover has moved a different Motion from that of the seconder. Therefore, as PF, we are not supporting this.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 
The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, like any other area of human development, law is dynamic. It evolves and brings change and when that change occurs, it is taken on board. For the mover of this Motion to propose that there should be a review of the human rights curriculum for the law enforcing agencies, is to suggest that human rights law is static. If that is what he is saying, it is a fallacy.

Laughter

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, if the police are not conducting themselves professionally, the problem lies with their conduct and not with the law. The police’s conduct must be viewed on an individual basis because the Motion is not saying all the policemen in Zambia are conducting themselves unprofessionally. Like all these hon. Members are saying, the police officers are suffering from being used as tools of oppression.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, there are many examples we can give in this country. In February, 2001, as women in the UPND, a party to which I was a Member then, we were demonstrating peacefully from the party headquarters down Cairo Road, when the Government ‘unleashed’ police officers to bundle us and throw us into trucks to take us to a stadium where they kept us the whole day and the whole night for no reason.

There was also a time that journalists demonstrated, but the police were ‘unleashed’ on them. The journalists were beaten up. I remember that one of the victims was Hon. Sichinga because I went to the Central Police Station to get him out of there on police bond.

Mr Speaker, in this country, not so long ago, political opponents were detained for inordinate periods. People did not even know where they were. Even the habeas corpus was just an academic exercise because they were never brought to court on time. Also, the people who committed very petty felonies were detained for many weeks or years without being taken to court.

Mr Speaker, through evolution and activism, which are aspects of the natural process, suspects can now be brought to court within hours. This means that the law has evolved. This Motion is superfluous. It is not the law that is the issue here but conduct. What the PF Government is doing now is working on the minds of the police. It is not their fault, they have been conditioned for too long to being used as tools of oppression.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the PF Government is a Government of laws which will respect the fundamental freedoms of all the citizens, including the hon. Members of the Opposition …

Hon. Government Member: George Kunda, SC.

Mrs Mwamba: … and will uphold the rule of law. Like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs said the other day in his maiden speech, this Government will not use our laws and our courts of law to bring frivolous indictments on any innocent citizens. It is only those who are associated with impropriety, corruption and many other vices which are on the other side of the law who will be visited by the law. Therefore, if you are innocent, please, stop misleading the people by bemoaning imaginary persecutions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, there are many things that are still fresh on our minds. These happened in the run up to the elections and during the elections which is only in the past few months. Anyhow, all I can say is that we will not support this Motion because it is superfluous.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I have listened very carefully …

Mr Mushanga: Very carelessly.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: … and looked at the Motion. It simply states that this House urges the Government to review the human rights curriculum for the law enforcement agencies in the country. I have listened to many instances cited by many debaters that the police are allegedly not carrying out their work properly. Many debaters have stated that the conduct of the police officers has been instigated or is a result of the type of political leadership.

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I would like to state here that if we agree that the police is professional and that we, in this House, make the laws and that the police professionally carry out their job to make those who have breached the law face the law, then how can we state that the political leadership is responsible for this? If, indeed, the argument is about the conduct, should we not be working on that conduct? Surely, why should our professional police officers who worked in a professional manner at that time, suddenly, after forty-five days, be unprofessional?

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I would like to state here that we are missing the point.

Hon. Government Members: Which point?

Dr Chituwo: We are missing the point because the point is that when wrongs are committed by an institution such as the police, we should objectively look at what causes that. The plausible reason …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Dr Chituwo: … is that whereas one can give an institution the materials that it requires; the money that it requires, if the man at the centre stage cannot change his methods, then everything goes to waste. I think the hon. Members in this House have managed one institution or the other and will agree with me that this is a plausible reason. This Motion is simply seeking that we review the training of our law enforcement agencies because of these many breaches cited.

Hon. Government Members: Where were you?

Dr Chituwo: It is not a question of where I was at that time. If an offence was committed at that time, we are saying then it will be committed again, but we want to protect our citizens.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, it does not matter who does it. Our role here is to protect our citizens using the institutions and the methods that are professional. That is why I am very surprised that my colleagues on your right, Mr Speaker,  …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Chituwo: … are, in many ways, supporting the Motion, but are then turning round and saying we are not supporting it.

Hon. Government Members: We are not supporting the Motion.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: The examples we have cited call for change and review in the training curriculum of our law enforcement agencies.

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I want to state here that it does not matter who the leader of a professional body is. As a surgeon, if there is a knife which can do good or harm, I will not be influenced by the leadership of that institution. I will do that which is right as a surgeon.

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: I, therefore, expect that a properly trained police force will do its job irrespective of the political leadership.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge this House that, emotional as this might be, let us just recollect and look at the Motion. Let us not judge a Motion on the basis of who the mover is. Let us look at issues objectively because, when we do that, we shall provide quality leadership which is not subjective, but objective. This Motion is well intended because its aim is to cure the root cause of the many examples that my colleagues on your right have cited.

Mr Speaker, I urge my colleagues to support this well-intended Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, what is interesting is that the Motion has been moved by the former Vice-President. I expect him to be aware that the Zambia Police Force trains officers from three institutions and these are the Zambia Police Force, the Immigration Department and the Drug Enforcement Commission. These are trained at Lilayi. He must have been aware that from 1995, human rights and other related issues have been part of the curriculum at this institution.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: The key point is, if we, in leadership, do not give the political will to Government institutions, especially the defence and security wings, then we will end up killing the nation.

Mr Speaker, the question I now ask is, how do you open a door which is already open? These programmes are there and hon. Members of Parliament are free to visit our training institutions where they will be availed the curriculum that is used in training officers. As the world develops, we will continue reviewing this programme. It is unnecessary for someone to come up with a Motion to try and bring up lamentations about whatever fears they have.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: If you have any fears of any kind, please, I beg you, if you are an innocent person, just feel free and lead your life normally. The police will not harass you as you used to do to the then hon. Members of the Opposition here.

Laughter

Mr Sakeni: We, on this side, want to make sure that the police operate professionally without undue influence from politicians. We are changing that and we have started to do so. This is why none of you has been locked up so far, although you were supposed to be behind bars.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: And you know it!

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I say so because the MMD still have not explained where they got the 150 vehicles from. If the Police ask them about these things, it is normal because it is common knowledge that there is no party in Zambia that has the money to buy such things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: When they do that to them, why should it become an issue? If they are innocent, they should not pull other hon. Members on to their emotional side and join in their lamentation.

Mr Speaker, this Motion is irrelevant because we are doing what is required of us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Lubinda: Yaa! Wailetelela mwana!

Mr Kunda, SC.: … we have put the message across. The Zambia Police Force is ours and it is important that some of these messages are put across. For the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, in the next five years or so, you will have a lot to explain.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Kunda, SC.: On the Mongu riot issue, I was asked by Mr Speaker to explain what happened there. For you to give a comprehensive explanation, you have to get briefs from the operatives on the ground. They will be doing the same thing consistently themselves.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: I think we are speaking the same language and we want a Police Force which is professional.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and negatived.

MOTION OF THANKS

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to thank, and in some cases, as might be appropriate, congratulate some people.

Firstly, I wish to thank the resolute and resilient hon. Members of the PF for electing His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, to the position of Party President at the first General Conference held in Kabwe in July in the year of our Lord 2011.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: I say they are determined and resolute people because the PF had to overcome many challenges and obstacles to convene such a meeting. These challenges included logistical demands and, sometimes, deliberate effort on the part of some State-sponsored agents who were determined to make it impossible for the party to find a suitable venue and, later on, mobilise all its members countrywide to attend.

Mr Speaker, I will be failing in my duties if, in paying tribute to my party members and colleagues, I forget to extend this to the electorate of the Republic of Zambia who, in their numbers, voted overwhelmingly for His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, to become the country’s Fifth President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: To His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, his colleagues in the Central Committee, the lower party structures, right up to the lowest organ of the party, and, indeed, all party members, I say congratulations.

Sir, I wish to congratulate you, Mr Speaker, on your election. I extend the same to the Deputy Speaker, Hon. Mr M. D. Lungu, and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House, Hon. C. K. B. Banda, SC. I take notice of the notorious fact that the Deputy Chairperson of the Committees of the Whole House is the only member from the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) in the House. However, I am cheered by the fact that the hon. Member is known to me as a very gregarious person and, therefore, does not feel lonely or isolated.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I wish to urge the hardworking Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia and her staff to keep up the good work. In welcoming us to this House, they have made it easy for us to feel not so much as new comers although, at times, the numerous orientation programmes set for us reminded me of my first day at secondary school and, indeed, university. This resulted in some uncalled for nervousness on my part. I am glad to say that these were only flashes.

Sir, I wish to thank the people of Chawama who elected me overwhelmingly. At the centre of them all, I wish to recognise the efforts of the members of my campaign team, the clergy and party officials. Throughout the process of vying for adoption, filing of nominations, campaigning, voting, vote counting, totaling and right up to my being declared hon. Member of Parliament for Chawama Constituency, they were there for me. I say thank you to them all once more. I will remain forever indebted to the people of Chawama. I can only assure them that the debt is sufficient to humble me and, thereby ensure that I remain their true servant till the completion of my tour of duty. To my life partner, Esther, commonly referred to as my wife by those who are not advocates for gender parity or equality, to her, I say thank you my love. I wish to thank her for her support.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I also wish to congratulate all the ladies and gentlemen, who successfully made it to become hon. Members of this august House for the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Question.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I also wish to thank His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, for appointing me as hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President. I wish to assure the Republican President that I will not let him down in any way. This is because doing so will be letting down the people of Zambia who have been assessing the PF in the last ten years regarding its suitability to form Government. The results of the assessment were resoundingly given on 20th September, 2011. On this day, the people did show that the PF was the party best suited to form Government.

Mr Speaker, the provision of resettlement services is one of the portfolio functions of the Office of the Vice-President. I am glad to report that the Government has been implementing the resettlement programme for many years now and credit for this should go to the founder President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr K. D. Kaunda who, by decree, in 1988, set up the Department of Resettlement. This department was established to facilitate the resettlement of the unemployed youths and adults, retired and retrenched persons so that they could find land on which they could carry out their agricultural activities. The department is in the business of delivering land to the Zambian people. As you may be aware, there is no land in town, but the rural areas of the country.

Mr Speaker, in order to appreciate what the department is doing in the ministry, it is desirable that one goes out to these areas where people are settled, and check if boreholes are being drilled there and whether the development of infrastructure such as roads, rural health centres and schools among other infrastructure is taking place. I am saying this because I note that the department is a very important arm of my ministry which could be used to enhance development in rural areas. However, my findings are that most hon. Members do not seem to know of its existence. Therefore, I invite them to come to the office so that we talk about the plight of the people in the respective constituencies. It does not matter whether you are on the other side of the Floor.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: This is because we are here to serve the country and not political parties.

Mr Speaker, resettlement is a durable solution to some of the problems affecting humanity such as hunger, poverty, unemployment and lack of access to land among others. The challenge to develop the rural areas is real and immense. According to our audit, there are some developments which were earmarked for certain areas. Unfortunately, the scheme failed to deliver in some areas. However, in other areas there are boreholes and wells for water supply being dug. In the same areas, the road network is worked on to improve accessibility to the resettlement schemes. Additionally, schools and clinics have been built for the benefit of the resettled communities.

However, allow me to point out what the PF Government will focus on as it continues to implement the resettlement programme. It will endeavour to do the following among others:

(i) improve the management of the resettlement process by creating a broad based multi-sectoral technical committee at the national level which will comprise officials from various stakeholder ministries and institutions. This arrangement will create inter-institutional linkages at the national level which did not exist before. Currently, the multi-sectoral committee only exists at the provincial level. However, until we devolve power to provinces and districts, the best approach would be to have a multi-sectoral committee at the national level initially;

(ii) collect information on all the persons and communities displaced by developmental projects such as mining so as to assess the current welfare of such persons and communities in order to see how we can resettle them;

(iii) use the resettlement strategy as a durable solution to the problems of human settlements in flood prone areas. This issue is of interest to me as an hon. Member of Parliament representing the people of Chawama, Misisi and Kuku compounds because these areas are prone to water logging year in and year out. This measure will be expected to involve moving people to safer land through a consultative process and in partnership with the private sector. This measure will be costly in the interim as it requires a lot of financial resources. However, the implementation of this programme is supposed to be standard as we source for funds. Through the implementation of this programme, we believe that some people in Kuku, Msisi and parts of Chawama will have to be relocated. The Government will ultimately benefit from this process as it will save a lot of money in the long run. The Government currently spends billions of kwacha every year in repeated emergency interventions; and

(iv) embark on a consultative process to acquire land on which to establish more resettlement schemes in order to meet the current high demand for resettlement. This is because the resettlements that we have in all the provincial headquarters seem to be reaching their saturation points.

Mr Speaker, we all agree that the environment in which some of our people live is not conducive. Therefore, we cannot continue with the fire-fighting approach to floods in Lusaka and other areas that experience them. The time to act is now. In this respect, I wish to assure the House that it is my Government’s resolve to find a lasting solution to the human settlement problems not only in Chawama where I come from, but also in all flood-prone areas.

My office, like I said earlier, is ready and available to attend to all matters which relate to issues of resettlement and disaster management and mitigation. These are key areas of our functions in the ministry.

Mr Speaker, finally, the PF Government will not allow indiscriminate displacement of people like what we saw happen with the people who were displaced from the Sichifulo Game Management Area, in Kazungula District of the Southern Province, in 2008.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Our people will no longer be subjected to such inhuman treatment. May I just repeat that my office will co-ordinate and monitor relocation and rehabilitation of all people who were evicted. We are going to embark on development programmes in the areas they are going to settle in and make them productive with a secure land tenure system.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

I thank you, Sir

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection (Professor Luo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. Allow me, this afternoon, to give my maiden speech as well as comment on the President’s Speech.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to congratulate you on your election as Hon. Mr Speaker of this august House. People organised themselves and camped in a hotel and were driven to Parliament for elections in a bus, which was an infringement of human rights. However, they still failed to pool the numbers for the Speaker they had hoped to have elected. Instead, you were elected as Hon. Mr Speaker, with your rich CV that cannot be compared with those for many Zambians. I congratulate you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: I also wish to congratulate the hon. Deputy Speaker and the hon. Deputy Chairperson of the Committees of the Whole House. In addition, I want to acknowledge the PF for, first of all, giving me the opportunity to be an hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Constituency, one of the most peculiar and unique constituencies because it houses three institutions of higher learning, namely UNZA, Chainama College of Health Sciences and the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC).

Mr Speaker, I want to acknowledge the Members of the Central Committee, the party functionaries, the province, the district but, above all, the President of this Republic who has given me this rare opportunity to lead this very important ministry, which is the backbone of any Government, namely the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, I want to comment on three general issues. First of all, as my colleagues debated, there were insinuations that I mishandled the International Conference on AIDS and STDs in Africa (ICASA)  Conference. Let me educate my fellow hon. Members of Parliament that, according to international records, ICASA 1999, which I had the privilege to chair, has been recorded as the best conference ever held in Africa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo:  Mr Speaker, the ICASA Conference is not a Zambian conference. It is an international conference and is based on various premises. We have software which is used through and through at all ICASA conferences and the procedures are the same in all countries that have held ICASA conferences. Therefore, Zambia was not going to depart from this.

Secondly, the Zambian ICASA Conference is the only one that was ever chaired by a woman. Mr Speaker, let me tell the hon. Members what I always say. When people are good, they are good.

Hon Government Members: Yah, you cannot take away from them.

Professor Luo: Therefore, because of my good work and that of other members who presided over the ICASA Conference, I sit on the International Steering Committee and have been part of organising the subsequent ICASA conferences. After Zambia, the next conferences were in Burkina Faso, Kenya, Nigeria and then Senegal. I will be on the team for Ethiopia, Addis Ababa ICASA Conference, 2011.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Let me also tell the hon. Members – …

Mr Lubinda: Tell them!

Professor Luo: … if Hon. Kapembwa Simbao was here, he would have attested to the fact that, when he came to the ICASA Conference 2009, in Dakar, Senegal. He was worried about how he would get to his hotel. Further, when he landed in Senegal and found me at the foot of the plane, he was equally surprised to find me in there. He was also mesmerised that I was being given diplomatic reception by a foreign country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: If you, Zambians, cannot celebrate me, who will?

Mr Lubinda: Nima jealous chabe!

Professor Luo:  Let this honourable House not be part of the Zambians who are said to have Phds – wanting to pull others down.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: I have no apology to make to anybody. I have contributed to the fight against the human immuno-deficiency virus (HIV) internationally and I am recognised and respected. I do not care what anybody wants to say because these are facts. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, my second point is on violence. I am actually surprised that any member of the MMD can talk about humility and violence. There is evidence that some of the people on my immediate right have abused even women in the villages that are trying to make a difference. Therefore, is surprising that they should come to this House and talk about humility. Do they even know the definition of humility? No, they do not.

Hon. Government Members: No, bangavizibe ivo?

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, my constituency, which has suffered at the hands of the MMD, is celebrating my victory. Despite the MMD importing somebody from Mufulira, who thought she could come and stand in Munali, she was no match for me …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: … in terms of credentials, age and experience. Therefore, I walloped her and she will never ever repeat standing against me.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, Munali Constituency has no water and has bad roads. However, in the recent past, it saw unprecedented development of roads. As a result of this, Munali Constituency will suffer floods. Meanwhile, my colleagues on my immediate right have been saying that we must continue where they left off. However, as hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection, I have no intention of doing that. I have reviewed the contracts that were given and all of them were awarded by the Ministry of Works and Supply. My ministry, which is responsible for local roads, did not award any contract.

Mr Lubinda: Mwamvela manje?

Professor Luo: The contracts that were given to my ministry were for joining roads of about a mile. So, how, as Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection, can I continue making those mistakes?

Therefore, Mr Speaker, I intend to carry out an audit. I want to know who awarded the contracts, the recipients of those contracts, the money that was paid out on those contracts and where those contracts are today.

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, one of the hon. Members of Parliament said that the ministry had become too big and may create inefficiency.

Sir, the way the ministry has been restructured is correct. Those of you who were there when this country was run properly will remember that the councils actually looked after early education. They gave the children the right to play. They gave the mothers capacity to learn skills, especially those that did not have an opportunity to learn. This is what the Patriotic Front is preaching today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, the local government is in charge of the cleanliness of the environment and ensuring that waste is properly disposed of. That is what environmental protection is all about.

So, basically, the ministry has been rethought properly and, if we carry out our functions correctly, Zambia will be a better country.

Mr Speaker, let me share some of the issues that were raised. There is no way I am going to recommend that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is increased to K5 billion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, where is the evidence of giving a five hundredfold increment from K770 million to K5 billion? Where are the analyses? Where is the documentation to show that the CDF has benefitted the people of Zambia?

Sir, from my other life, I have travelled this country trying to fight the HIV/AIDS epidemic. In most constituencies, there is no evidence of infrastructure to support the amount of money that has been released over the last ten years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Therefore, my ministry is going to carry out an audit, constituency by constituency, to showcase the money that has been released so far.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: In constituencies where money has been abused, shared and used for campaigns, I will surrender this issue to Hon. Sakeni, and the law will visit them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Professor Luo: … in relation to the local councils, I want to admit that I have inherited councils that are dead. They are non-existent and …

Interruptions

Professor Luo: … have not been able to pay salaries …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Can we allow the hon. Minister to debate? Those consulting, please do so quietly. If you cannot consult quietly, you can go to the lobbies and consult loudly.

May the hon. Minister continue?

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, the councils that I have inherited are dead. I have been to certain councils where people have not been paid for fifty-four months, which is four years and six months.

Therefore, Sir, the work that we will embark on is that of cleaning up the councils. We have requested for CVs for the people who are working there so that we see whether they are fit to be managers of councils.

Mr Speaker, my ministry is now carrying out an inventory of how the markets and bus stations have been run. We have purged the markets of all the party cadres of the MMD.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: The markets will now be run by the councils themselves.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Every marketer has been registered and the information has been put on the computer. Identity cards for them to sell in the markets have been issued so that they feel that being a marketer is also a job.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Sir, we are also auditing all the assets that we have, including the billboards. For example, one of the councils’ registers showed that there were only 300 one-sided billboards and the revenue collection was K12.5 billion. When we carried out an audit, we found that this council had 900 two-sided billboards and the revenue collection is going to jump from K12.5 billion to K90 billion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, as regards water and sanitation, I would like to say that water is life and we can save this country from many infections and reduce expenditure on drugs if we did our work correctly. Unfortunately, as you heard from one of my press statements, even the councils have not been accountable.

Sir, earlier this year, they were given K94 billion which they have not been able to account for. So, we are putting in place water tight financial systems that will ensure that the councils and water utility companies account for the money that is given.

Mr Speaker, our accountability system will not be about receipts only, but about work delivered.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Therefore, I have told my engineers that they will have to be professional and accountable. They will have to go out and showcase that the work was done.

In terms of housing, Sir, my ministry, as instructed by the President of the Republic of Zambia in his speech, is working out modalities of how we will embark on massive housing schemes. This will not only provide houses for the poor and the poorest of the poor, but also create jobs for the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Member: More money! More money!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, in relation to environmental protection, my ministry will implement by the book. Investor or not, everybody will have to obey the regulations and rules of pollution. They will be treated accordingly. There will be no telephone calls from my office to the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) to stop them from taking anyone to book because I would like to succeed as a minister.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Sir, to be able to do this, we are putting in place pieces of legislation that will address, further, how we shall protect our environment, improve our waste disposal, deal with noise pollution, which is a big problem to our people, and carbon emission in this country.

Mr Speaker, Zambia, through my ministry, is going to be part of the global movement in ensuring that the effects of climate change are mitigated in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Sir, let me say to my hon. Colleagues that the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection will seriously audit land. All the land that the MMD Government gave out without following proper procedures will be repossessed. All the swimming pools that were sold will be repossessed because they are supposed to be for the public.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Through this august House, I would like to warn the people who have bought these things fraudulently and who are building houses on land that does not belong to them that we will repossess it, including the buildings that may be there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, once again, I want to thank the President of the Republic of Zambia for giving me this very rare honour of leading the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to conclude my debate by reminding my colleagues on your left …

Hon. Government Members: Dora naisa!

Professor Luo: … that in Bemba, we say, “Ukutangila tekufika”.  The fact is that they actually were in Government and harassed us to an extent that my President, Mr Sata, was stoned by the other contender for Munali Constituency. Why should they then come here to moan and talk about humility and violence? I would like to remind them that in Munali Constituency my youths where knifed and I have a scar on my back where I was stoned by the MMD.

Hon. Opposition Members: Let us see.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Sir, I think it is important that when they realise that a different team of people are in power and that they need to exercise humility, they should not come to this House and malign other people. I also would like to remind them that next year, I have been asked to convene the ICASA Pathogenesis Meeting because of the confidence that the international community have in me. This time around, when they come to ask for contracts from me, I will not give them and they can continue peddling lies about ICASA. The fact, my dears, is that I have been recognised worldwide. When one is good, one is good. Let us celebrate those who are good.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

ADJOURNMENT:  CAPACITY OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES IN ACHIEVING EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT MANAGEMENT OF PUBLIC RESOURCES COUNTRYWIDE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House urges the Government to build the capacity of local authorities countrywide in order to achieve effective and efficient management of public resources.

Sir, allow me to, firstly, highlight the legal framework under which local authorities operate. For instance, the Local Government Act of 1991. This Act, as amended several times, empowers all categories of local authorities to undertake a wide range of functions. The councils are recognised as the primary bodies responsible for development at the district level. They are the statutory deliberative and consultative bodies concerned with the determination of broad policy objectives and critical assessment of development programmes as well as the efficient and effective management of their areas. Consequently, the Act gives sixty-three scheduled functions to the councils, which include, among others, the provision of services such as water supply, sewerage, health, feeder and district roads and education and housing. Thus, the 1991 Act has strengthened the role of councils as focal points for wider participation and delivery of social services to the local communities.

Mr Speaker, with regard to finance, the Act gives councils the power to raise and utilise revenue from their local sources at their discretion. In addition, councils receive transfers of funds from the Central Government which are supposed to be their major source of revenue. The transfers are, firstly, the means by which the Central Government shares tax revenue with councils. Secondly, they provide a conduit through which various grants from sector ministries are disbursed to enable councils to undertake delegated functions on their behalf. These grants take various forms consisting of general, special and capital grants. Special grants are meant for financing projects which are prior-marked by the Central Government. Capital grants are meant to be used for financing capital projects while general grants are additional financial resources extended to district councils.

Mr Speaker, legal policy and institutional frameworks have been put in place to establish and democratise local government administration with the objective of deepening democracy and improving service delivery. However, there are three key challenges affecting the effectiveness of local governance. Allow me, in this regard, to give a brief summary of the three main challenges that local authorities face which contribute to their lack of capacity in service delivery.

Sir, the first challenge relates to financial crisis. Raising sufficient revenue is one of the most intractable problems facing most local authorities, hence the majority of councils are unable to meet their statutory functions and obligations. Although the 1991 Local Government Act has given councils vast powers to raise and generate their own revenues, few are able to take advantage of this provision due to the fact that their resource base is too small to sustain their operations. As a result, local authorities have accumulated the crushing burden of debt or arrears and are now faced with financial crisis. Few can stand on their own feet. In addition, Government actions and policies have exacerbated the financial problems of councils. The councils face severe resource constraints due to the following:

(i) declining and erratic disbursements of grants from the Central Government;

(ii) erosion of asset base through various actions and policies of the Central Government, such as the 1992 directive to Councils to disinvest in commercial ventures and sell rental housing stock at uneconomic prices;

(iii) unfunded mandates – local authorities are given increasing responsibilities without corresponding capacity in resource mobilisation; and

(iv) re-direction of funds intended for local authorities to the control of semi-autonomous local institutions such as the Health and Education Management Boards created to perform specific functions on behalf of sector ministries. This has left significant gaps in service delivery capacity and placed limitations on the extent to which stakeholders can participate in development management. Without financial sustainability, local authorities are unable to effectively provide services to their communities, and their developmental capacity and autonomy are thereby undermined.
Mr Speaker, the second challenge is the lack of integrated district development management and planning. There is a lack of holistic, integrated planning and management at the district level. Effective integrated planning and management is undermined by the absence of an effective co-ordinating mechanism under the direct control of the council. District Development Co-ordination Committees (DDCCs) were established in 1993 as fora for planning and implementation of development activities and community participation. They are technical committees mandated to co-ordinate development activities in the district and prepare development plans for submission to the district council. The DDCC is composed of heads of the Central Government departments and other development agencies represented in the district, as well as the executive members of the district councils. Thus, the majority of the members are bureaucrats representing the Central Government departments and are answerable to their parent ministries, not the local authority.

The council has no legal administrative authority over line ministries of the Central Government. The de-concentrated sector departments, which provide services within the council’s area of jurisdiction, report directly to their parent ministries in the Capital City, Lusaka. Thus, they remain primarily responsible to their ministerial chain of command. The DDCC is thus rendered ineffective because it has no legal authority to back up its operations and the council has no control over its operations.

Mr Speaker, the third challenge is the limited extent of meaningful citizen participation in local governance. The major weakness in the current local governance system is the lack of legally constituted local government institutions at the ward or area level. There is no forum for community participation in decision-making on local development activities and affairs.

Under the 1991 Local Government Act, each council’s area of jurisdiction is demarcated into wards. However, these wards, at the sub-district level, are only recognised for purposes of local government elections. As noted earlier, under the previous system of local government, a network of village productivity committees, ward councils and ward development committees had been established to facilitate development and induce participation. I must add here that the President recently mentioned the need to create these village productivity committees. These grassroots participatory structures made the local council the primary focus of development at the district level.

However, under the 1991 Local Government Act, ward development committees and village productivity committees are not formally linked to local authorities and are thus no longer functional in most instances. The result has been the creation of an institutional vacuum with no effective forum for community participation in decision making on local development activities and issues at the sub-district level. Thus, although local authorities are accountable to the rate payers, opinion polls indicate that most people feel that they do not reflect their views in the council and are not accountable to residents.

Mr Speaker, local authorities are assuming more and more responsibilities. For instance, in addition to the funds that councils receive from the Central Government, they are also the custodians of the CDF. As you are aware, we have witnessed a gradual increase in these funds over the years, from the initial K30million to the present K770 million.  As such, there has been a lot of optimism in their recipients, the community.

Sir, despite the increase in the CDF, a number of constituencies have had very little, if any, development that can be talked about. This is mainly due to lack of capacity to efficiently manage these funds in local authorities. Where there has been capacity, the funds have been used effectively. Where there has been no capacity, there have been problems. For instance, Kalomo Central Constituency in Kalomo District, with the help of the Germany Development Co-operation Zambia (GDZ), embarked on an ambitious CDF monitoring programme in which they have effectively monitor and utilise the CDF to the benefit of the people. There has been capacity building in the council.

Mr Speaker, I can proudly showcase every penny of the CDF. So far, in Kalomo, we have been able to build three bridges, five clinics, several schools and a number of other projects and the people in the community have appreciated what the CDF has done for them. 

Mr Speaker, another lesson I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Members could be drawn from Russia, when it was making a transition from an agrarian to an industrial society. It was discovered that during this period, there was a lot of capacity that was lacking in managing the industrial revolution, hence the Government put in place mechanisms that were aimed at building the capacity of the local people to manage their own development. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, who headed the Soviet State during its initial years (1917-1924), coined a slogan to that end, which was: “We shall develop Russia using our own resources”. This meant that for Russia to manage the transition, it had to rely on its own human capital and that it could achieve this only if it built the capacity of its people.

Mr Speaker, in the light of the examples above, we, too, can develop our constituencies and areas only if we can empower our local authorities by building their capacity to manage development funds.

Sir, I gave the example of the Kalomo Central Constituency Monitoring Initiative and the Russia transition period. These examples can be used as lessons for all the 150 constituencies in Zambia. This will, ultimately, help in managing our resources effectively and efficiently.

Mr Speaker, I know that there is the Land Development Fund which, when it was given to certain councils, was not utilised for the intended purpose. Giving more financial resources to the councils necessitates building capacity in them. We cannot hold back and not give the councils the capital required. Then we will not serve our communities.

Sir, because of the foregoing, the call for an increase in the CDF is timely. I know that in the past, it has increased slowly, but surely. However, it can still be increased to K2.5 billion. We can move to a reasonable figure …

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: … because the communities on the ground need the money. It is this money that the people have found beneficial. The problem we have is capacity building. We cannot deprive the communities what they need to develop our country on the excuse that our councils have no capacity. They can have the capacity, but it is the responsibility of the Government to build capacity in the councils so that they manage the financial affairs of the country and, therefore, deliver to the people, who expect as much. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate. I support the Motion on the Floor because, indeed, there is a need to build capacity in local authorities in the country. 

Sir, in her debate, the Hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection indicated to the House that councils are dead. It is true that most councils are not performing to expectation, but there are various reasons this is so.

Firstly, some of these councils have a poor revenue base. Secondly, there are inconsistencies in the grants to councils from the Central Government. Furthermore, some councils, even though they generate quite sizeable amounts of income, have very poor accountability because of ill-qualified personnel.  In some cases, even with qualified personnel in place, there is lack of retention, which has made it very difficult for some councils to operate, even when they have the capacity to deliver the services enshrined in the Local Government Act.

Also, Mr Speaker, what killed the councils are some of the provisions which were found in the Local Government Act which gave them the power to hire and fire staff. In some cases, people were being employed on tribal lines even when they were not properly qualified. This crippled the councils because the people mismanaged resources due to poor qualifications or lack of understanding of what they are supposed to do.

Sir, with the introduction of the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC), I am sure there is going to be a fair distribution of qualified manpower in the local authorities. However, there is a need to find an avenue through which the staff in local authorities will be trained.

One of the key factors that is critical to the improvement of service delivery in the local government circles is to strengthen the Local Government Training Institute at Chalimbana. There may be people with degrees who could be employed, but if they do not have the basics of how councils are run, they find it very difficult to run the local authorities.

The accounting procedures in the local government system are quite different from those which are found in parastatal and private companies. Actually, there is a need for the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection, which houses the Local Government Training Institute, to ensure that there is more funding given to the institute at Chalimbana so that the councils are able to send staff for training, especially that now the LGSC is in place and will be transferring staff from one council to the other.

Mr Speaker, some councils have difficulties sending people for training. Other educational opportunities include the degree programme in local government which is being offered by the Mulungushi University.

      Mr Speaker, people who have managed to run councils have a background in accountancy. They have managed to do well because of having passed through the training institute at Chalimbana. Before getting to the top positions, most of them served the councils as financial secretaries.

One person that inspired me in the local government system, Sir, when I was serving in it, is the current hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, Hon. Chenda. Whenever we met as principal officers, I used to admire the wisdom he had regarding the system. I also used to admire all those who used to run their councils well. We had very few problems then compared to now. Most of the qualified staff have left the local government system and gone into other fields.

Professor Luo: Thanks to you!

Mr Chisala: Mwalionaula kabili!

Hon. MMD Member: Aah! Ni ba Sata!

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, people are free to give their own opinion regarding what I am saying.

In 1992/1993, there was an amendment made to the law regarding the duration of service to the councils. At that time, the duration of service was twenty-two years. This law left most councils crippled as they struggled to pay retirees. Most of them have failed to recover since then.

Mr Muntanga: Correct!

Mr Namulambe: Further, the councils lost a lot of property which was grabbed by the bailiffs the time the retirees started taking them to court in pursuit of their benefits.

Mr Speaker, it is important for the Government to find ways of training the people who are supposed to serve the local authorities. It should also revise the way it funds the local authorities so that it can come up with the means to attract quality personnel.

Mr Speaker, I am sure that once the Decentralisation Implementation Plan, which is a brainchild of the Decentralisation Policy, is fully operational, funds will start flowing directly to the local councils. The people will then be able to enjoy a lot of benefits from their local councils because they will be able to carry out most of the functions enshrined in the Local Government Act.

Sir, it is important that whenever non-controversial Motions such as this one come before the Floor of this House, they are supported.

If the Central Government has to operate effectively, there is a need to strengthen the operations of the local authorities. Many people would like to work for these local authorities but, somehow, they get discouraged because of the poor remuneration and the difficulties in trying to raise resources to pay salaries.

It is not abnormal to find a council, for instance, going for fifty-four months without paying its workers their salaries. Sometimes you may ask: How do its workers survive? How does one work for fifty-four months without a salary?

Mr Sikazwe: Corruption!

Mr Namulambe: Sometimes, whenever there are these problems, the people who suffer the most are the junior staff. They survive through advances. There is no council which can claim that it does not raise even some little resources.

Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that us, as hon. Members of Parliament who are councillors, do not take a keen interest to learn how these local authorities operate. When councils are holding committee meetings, we shun them. We forget the importance of the committee meetings in the councils’ operations, and yet we are there to provide leadership. I think that we could be of help to some of these local authorities.

At one time, Mr Speaker, Kalomo was one of the best councils in the country when Mr Siwakwi was the Council Secretary.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, I recall that when I served as Council Secretary for Mpongwe District Council, I worked very well. This is why I was promoted to the level of Permanent Secretary at an early age. At Mpongwe District Council, we used to have surplus funds carried over to the following year. This is because there was proper accountability. This time around, some people who are running the councils have got difficulties even to prepare their monthly returns of income and expenditure, simply because they are not trained to do so. Sometimes, payment vouchers even go missing.

Mr Speaker, training is very important for the local authorities. I want to request the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection to have a consultative meeting with the serving and former town clerks which will help this country come up with a way forward which is aimed at improving the running of our local government system. Such a move will be a step in the right direction.

Hon. Government Member: Why did you not do it?

Mr Namulambe: Sir, it is not right for an hon. Member on your right to question why we never organised such a meeting. The country needs to move forward on the foundation which was left behind by the MMD Government.

Mr Mushanga: Which foundation?

Mr Namulambe: When you are in Government, you are supposed to continue with the programmes which were left behind by the previous regime. Only a dull person would see no sense whenever good ideas are provided.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, it is important for the people in Government to learn to listen. We have repeatedly stated on the Floor of this House that we are here to provide advice. If those from the right continue to heckle while we talk, then they will not be able to hear what we are saying. We are urging them to listen to what we say so that they can implement some of our good suggestions. We mean well and want to see an improvement in the quality of lives of our people.

Interruptions

Mr Chisala: Ninshi tamwacitile ifyo?

Mr Namulambe: Now that the PF is in Government, it should see to it that it avoids the failures of the MMD so that the people can be able to appreciate its being in power.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: If they do not want to listen, they will go down because the people will always judge the performance of those who are in Government.

Mr Sikazwe: Who judged you?

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we are on standby as the PF seeks to drive this country forward. If it fails to deliver, we shall take over.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on this very progressive and non-controversial Motion.

Mr Speaker, allow me to give a background on the state of affairs in our country as they stand today. When you are at Manda Hill, you would think you are at Sandton City, in South Africa. However, if you moved right across to Kafue, you would think it had just come out of a war. If you went to Kaoma or literally anywhere else in the country, there are shanty compounds which are an eye sore. What this Motion is trying to urge this Government to do – and it is merely to urge because it can choose to adopt this Motion or not, but face the people after five years  – for now, is to reverse this kind of situation by building capacity across the country which is through the local authorities.

Sir, South Africa, for example, is developing because the budget is broken down and there is a particular percentage which goes to the local authorities. As such, local authorities have become an economic hub across the country. You cannot continue running a country such as Zambia with only a few towns growing, whilst the rest of the country looks like it has come out of a war. The solution to reversing this kind of situation in our country is what we are urging here that the capacity in local authorities be improved, both human and financial. It is not enough to say that money cannot be given because there is no capacity. That is being irresponsible because the Government has the obligation to improve capacity.

Mr Speaker, allow me to cite examples of some countries. In Namibia, when a council is not performing, the people in its locality still need services. They cannot be punished because local authority officials are inefficient. Therefore, officers are seconded to these authorities so that people continue to receive services. People do not go on a break from receiving services. Any responsible government will ensure that services are received all the time from January to December. Where there are bottlenecks, it is the job of the government to do away with them.

Mr Speaker, if, for example, in Lukulu, there is no capacity and you want to punish people by not giving them grants because of that, it is being irresponsible because there are Zambians there who want services just as there are Zambians in Kaputa and Shang’ombo who want the same. Everywhere across the country people want services. Even a town like Monze, which is along the line of rail, and may have been looked at as developed a few years ago, has a grader which was left by the UNIP Government.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: During my tour of many small towns in the last session of Parliament, I realised that they had no graders. As a result, there is even the failure to work on feeder roads. Therefore, it is the duty of the Central Government to provide the financial capacity to these local authorities. By the way, if money is a problem, you can provide the equipment. For instance, you can say that in Monze, in lieu of the CDF, this year, we are giving you a grader. Who can steal a grader? Let us be innovative because people are suffering.

Mr Speaker, if a good grader costing K1.4 billion is given to Monze District Council, I can tell you that all feeder roads would be worked on. The issue of providing fuel is simple. Even with the current CDF, if there was a new grader given as a grant, we would work on most of the roads. At the moment, people are complaining about there being no capacity in the local authorities, hence the incomplete projects. I want to tell the hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection, whose positive drive I have noted, that the CDF has a real impact on the ground. Even with the so-called lack of capacity, in Bweengwa Constituency, in the last five years, if there was any dip tank built, it was either done using the CDF or by the World Vision. There was no dip tank from the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. So, who is incompetent? It is definitely the Central Government.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: I am debating in general. Some of you were in the MMD Government and so give me a break. I will name you, starting from the top. Let us just discuss issues here and move forward.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: I will name you. Hon. Namulambe has actually given a history, which I think must be redressed. What happened in the early 1990s when people who were perceived to be supporters of UNIP were asked to retire if they had served the council for twenty years deprived the local authorities of human capital and that is where the problem started. We are together in this and we do not want to mention the names of those who were involved. We should not look back. I do not like looking back because you may just crash into a building ahead of you. Let us just move forward. There is a history which must be addressed.

Mr Speaker, we all remember that, before the 1990s, every year, as children, we would see graders working on feeder roads. Now, because the Central Government is, allow me to say, selfish as it wants to hold onto all the money in the ministries without pushing it to the local government, local authorities in the rural areas around the country are becoming poorer. Is it not shameful that when you are in Lusaka and go to Manda Hill or Arcades, you would think you are in South Africa, and yet when you take a visitor to Kafue you wonder what is wrong with this country? As a result of the lack of capacity in the local authorities, there is even a failure to re-plan towns. The towns are growing beyond the earlier planned demarcations. People are building anyhow and by the time you start doing sensible things, it will be very costly.

Mr Speaker, today, if you want to make by-passes through the city of Lusaka, you will have to demolish people’s houses. That is shameful. This is a straightforward Motion and I would like to tell the hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection that the capacity needed in the local authorities is human and financial. The people must not be denied the financial resources simply because there is no human capital. Human capital can be provided in one week by a serious government. Other countries do that.

Mr Speaker, if you go to Sesheke and cross the border to Katima Mulilo, you will see the difference. The Katima Mulilo Town, in Namibia, did not have the right staff for some years. I worked there for some time. So, the Minister of Local Government suspended the officials and put them on leave. He then seconded officials from Windhoek to draw up a new plan to develop the place. It is shameful when you go to Sesheke and cross over to the Katima Mulilo side because the latter is more developed while the former is basically a shanty compound. We need to take capacity to the local authorities and we cannot wait because this is urgent. If we do not do that, we will see the repercussions.

Mr Speaker, I want to end by giving another example. Towns must begin to develop. If, for example, Monze is not developing because of lack of capacity in the local authorities, this will filter down to the smaller village councils because they emulate the mother town. When you drive from Lusaka to Kabwe, you just see shanty compounds which are an eye sore. Is there leadership in this country? What is wrong with this country? There are supposed to be some small village councils to curb this, but this can only be done if the Central Government gives capacity to the local authorities.

Mr Speaker, on the development of our country, until you take capacity to the local authorities, you will just promote urbanisation which will create a problem of over population in Lusaka. This country has a small population compared to its landmass. Why do we have such congestion in Lusaka? My friend, the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province, is struggling to control the commotion in Lusaka because the hinterland is not developed and so we should take the human and financial resources there.

 Sir, I am happy that there is agreement that the CDF should continue being increased. When you come to Monze, it is the CDF you audit and not the hon. Member of Parliament. I thought I should clarify that. The guidelines are clear. The hon. Member of Parliament does not sign for any money.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I do not do that because I am a clean man. I hate corruption. What the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection needs to do is not to deny an increment of the CDF, but strengthen the guidelines. The Auditor-Generals report is thick because most of the ministries abuse funds but, at the end of the day, do you stop funding those ministries? No. So, let us improve capacity and continue increasing the allocation to the local level.

Sir, the CDF is referred to as such for the sake of fairness. It is a council grant based on a constituency formula so that there is fairness in its allocation and that it is easier to distribute. We are running away from centralising resources. Therefore, the CDF is not a fund for an hon. Member of Parliament. We do not touch nor sign for it. We just sit on the committees, which are the secretariat, and we are not even the Chairpersons. It is just like in ministries where there is a secretariat, the Permanent Secretary. If a Minister was to be involved in corruption, he/she would have connived with the Permanent Secretary.

The CDF is audited every year. So, there is nothing exciting about those on you right saying that they are going to audit this fund. Once the audit is carried out, the culprits of misappropriation of funds should be dealt with. However, money must not stop flowing to the people when improprieties are discovered. The Zambian people must not be denied development when corruption is exposed. Let the culprits be arrested, but the money must continue flowing.

Mr Speaker, in summarising my short speech, …

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: … I want to say that I have respect for the current and former hon. Ministers. However, the disadvantage we have is that most hon. Ministers are highly urbanised and only go to rural areas when they are campaigning. Therefore, they do not have the true information of what is happening on the ground. I live in Monze and not in Lusaka. When the House adjourns, I go to Monze. I live with the people and know their problems and what must be done in terms of finding solutions.

Mr Speaker, the goodness with the CDF is that there is fairness in its distribution. For example, when a K5 billion grant is given to Monze Municipal Council, its use will be centralised. However, when the money is designated to individual constituencies, it means that my colleagues from Moomba and Monze Central and I will get an equal share and, therefore, there will be fairness. This is the way money must be disbursed.

The same disease we have at the Central Government of centralising funding can also be there at the local authority. On the other hand, when money is designated to constituencies, it will be distributed using the above-mentioned formula. It is important to note that this money is not for any hon. Member of Parliament. If the new Government is going to investigate thinking that it is the hon. Members of Parliament who use this money, it is mistaken.

Therefore, the hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection must strengthen the guidelines on the use of the CDF. The Government should also continue increasing the amount of this fund. It is possible to increase the CDF from the current K700 million to K5 billion per constituency. I can do it if I was the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and there would be development in all parts of the country.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, in the last five years, we have put up five clinics in my constituency from the K700 million annual allocations. In each ward, there was basically one clinic but, now, we have managed to put up, at least two, clinics in each ward using the CDF. We have not received any assistance from the Ministry of Health.

Mr Speaker, the ‘conveyer belt’ in ministries is broken. The service delivery and technical efficiency in ministries is not there. Therefore, people are saying that money should be taken closer to them through the CDF. So, why are we afraid of building the capacity in local authorities? We should let the local authorities learn to use money. We should not demonise our people by saying that they are incompetent and cannot use money properly. We can only develop capacity of local authorities if we give them money, train them on their job and put guidelines in place.

I want to advise this Government, for the sake of our people and even for their own sake, to build the capacity of our local authorities in terms of human and financial resources. There must be no demonising of councils as an excuse not to give them funding. If we do that, the people now know the impact of the CDF and will have a bone to pick with us.

Mr Speaker, at least, people see this money unlike that from the Central Government. Money not reaching the people from the Central Government is tantamount to corruption. This is more corrupt than the money which is used to build a bridge, for instance. If you go to Bweengwa now, you will see that one road has been repaired using the CDF. One time, when I went there, I cried when I saw people having to deviate from the road. Can you imagine people who are taking the sick to hospital being forced to leave the road because it is impassable. With the CDF, we have managed to patch up this road and people can now go to the hospital easily.

Someone who is ignorant will say that this money was abused. That road, which is about 30 km, cannot be rehabilitated with only K50 million. However, I took the council’s proposal and only patched it up, but someone who has just seen it will think money was stolen. First of all, they do know what it costs to work on a 30-km road. You need about K1 billion but, at least, from only K50 million, we managed to patch up the road and people are now using it from Munyenze through Kemba to Monze.

So, we need to strengthen the use of the CDF. The people want services. We should not run away from this hard task. The Government must remove the bottlenecks and take the money and human resource to the people. The human resource is the easiest to take to the people. With these few words, I want to urge this Government to, please, take these words kindly and support this Motion so that we make progress as a country.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would like to state that, in my view, the need for capacity building in our local authorities is not debatable. Talking about capacity building, I want to broaden it to include the development of staff, widening of the resource envelope or the revenue base and, indeed, the need to have adequate plant and equipment.

Mr Speaker, I am privileged to have been associated with one of the local authorities as a matter of fact. This House is aware that I served as mayor for the city of Kitwe between 1999 and 2001. So, I have a fair understanding of what goes on in the local authorities. Many hon. Members of this House will be aware that in the past, the revenue sources for the local authorities included money raised from water supply, electricity, rentals, motor road tax licences and a few other sundry sources of income.

Firstly, over the years, a mismatch has been created in the sense that whilst the functions that the local authorities are required to perform, as contained in the schedule of functions in the Local Government Act Cap. 281 of the Laws of Zambia, have not changed, the sources of revenue for the local authorities have moved to the centre. Clearly, the local authorities have been disabled.

Mr Speaker, secondly, over the years, we have seen a situation where associations have been left scot-free. They have assumed powers which they ought not to exercise over the facilities which belong to the local authorities and the local authorities have been made spectators. I have in mind here, what has been happening in the markets in the city of Kitwe. A monster called Zambia National Marketeers Association (ZANAMA), created by the previous Government, took over the facilities from which the local authority should have been earning substantial amounts of money and run those facilities as their own and made a fortune while the institution of the people was made unable even to pay its employees.

Mr Speaker, that is a tragedy. So, as we talk about capacity building, we should also remove any political influence in the running of the local authorities. The local authorities should be empowered to make decisions which will serve the interests of the citizens in the best manner.

Mr Speaker, I want to suggest that besides the grants that we are talking about that the Central Government should give to the local authorities, we should find a way through which the local authorities can earn money from the local economies. Why should the City of Kitwe, as a local authority, for example, not remain with a share of the money which is earned from the fuel levy which, at the moment, stands at 7.5 per cent on every litre which is purchased by anyone who buys fuel and leave 5 per cent to come to the centre? If this were done, our brothers and sisters who live in areas where not much fuel is consumed can also have the opportunity of being assisted to have their roads repaired.

Mr Speaker, I believe that if we took that route, we would be in a position to ensure that the local authorities perform effectively in delivering services to the people. At the moment, some of these local authorities are merely a symbolic presence of the Central Government. I do not think we should continue on that avenue. It is not true that we do not have trained staff in all cases.  If I am to speak about Kitwe City Council, I can say that we have quite a good number of well-trained staff, both men and women.

Mr Speaker, at any rate, what coincidence is this that countrywide, all the local authorities are not able to perform to the expectation of their citizens or residents? What coincidence is that? Obviously, there must be some underlying problem or problems. One of them is the one I have just pointed out but, as much as these local authorities would like to deliver services and quality services to their citizens, they are handicapped because they do not have the resources. When all the money is pooled into Lusaka, it becomes a problem to squeeze out even a kwacha because that is the way the Government system operates. It is bureaucratic by nature. If we were to relax on some of these centralised arrangements, we would begin to see some of our local authorities, if not all, rise to the challenge of delivering satisfactory services.

Interruptions

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, I am hearing voices saying that you cannot refuse to increase the CDF to K5 billion. I do not think that is the argument of the people sitting on your right. The argument is that surely, in normal circumstances, you cannot make such a leap because it becomes an abnormality.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kazabu: What are you going to do with the other competing interests because you are not just looking at the CDF, but many other competing interests?

Interruptions

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, this Government has its own plans and programmes of action and, because we have those programmes and plans of action which relate to our manifesto, we cannot just take care of this one by increasing the CDF abnormally and ignore the rest. We are a wise Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kazabu: … and we will proceed wisely.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, we agree that as we move forward, there is a need for us to keep on improving on the CDF, but to think that we can do it in one shot is being unrealistic and naïve.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kazabu: With those very few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak on this very important Motion. I would like to start with where the hon. Member has just left and this is on the subject of the CDF.

Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President came to this House and underlined the fact that we desire to decentralise as a country. What I am left wondering all the time is what we are going to decentralise. Is it just the responsibility, the assignment or the task? What exactly are we talking about when we talk about decentralising. My understanding is that we are going to give more responsibility to the local authorities and consequently, also increase their resources, including the CDF.

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, in fact, the CDF is a tool for implementing decentralisation. It is, therefore, important for our colleagues that are on your right to understand this as we underline this point. As a person who spent so many years in the local authorities, I do quite understand what the issues there are. I think there are some misconceptions and issues that the councils have no capacity. There are a number of factors that have already been outlined here. Suffice now to say that if we are going to decentralise and are serious about it, it goes without saying that we must also increase the resources that go to the local authorities.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, it also goes without saying that we must build the capacity in these local authorities. These are important institutions of governance and service delivery and the earlier we realise this, the better for us as a country. Otherwise, we will continue talking about decentralisation and go nowhere. We have circled around the issue of decentralisation. This time, we need good will from the Government to understand that the earlier we implement the Decentralisation Policy, the better and this goes with increasing the capacity in the councils, including resources.

Mr Speaker, as my colleague has said, the CDF is a tool that is used in the districts, but that is used on the formula of constituencies. May I also add here by saying that, as a person who spent so many years in local authorities, there are a number of issues that need capacity building in the local authorities. One of them is the human resource. I think this has already been underlined by a number of my colleagues.

Mr Speaker, the second issue is the organisation development and elaboration of management structure processes and procedures. We must realise that most of the Acts and statues that govern local authorities have, over the years, become redundant and obsolete. There is a need for us, as we build capacity, to also understand that we need to improve the organisation developments of these organisations.

Mr Speaker, the other point is the institution and legal framework that is currently governing the local authorities. There is a need for the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection to quickly review some of the statutes, if we are going to build the capacity in the councils.

Let me also comment on the functional support development such as the Information and Computer Technology (ICT). There is also a need for the Government and us, gathered here, to consider increasing the capacity of councils so that they can borrow and go into partnership in terms of service delivery with the private sector and other institutions. That can only be done with local authorities that have sufficient capacity and have also been enabled to make decisions through the process of decentralisation.

Mr Speaker, it is also important that we consider that as the local Government Act stands now, there is a provision for management boards. However, in the years that I was in the local authority, I am not sure about now, I have not heard of anywhere it has been implemented in this country. It is very important, therefore, that the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection working in collaboration with us, begins to consider putting some of these areas under management boards as provided for in the Local Government Act. 

Mr Speaker, I thought that I should lend my voice to the debate and emphasise that the CDF and capacity building in the local authorities is the shortcut to decentralisation that the President talked about. If we are not serious about this, we will continue questioning why the CDF should be increased to K5 billion but, if we are serious about decentralisation, the earlier we do it, the better.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, it is advisable that we advise each other at this particular time. If you want to catch the Speaker’s eye, the right procedure is to stand in your position, instead of raising hands. I have seen some hon. Members of Parliament attempting to catch my eye by raising their hands. It is not a seminar where this may be acceptable.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, this is a very straight-forward Motion that raises very little controversy.

Mr Speaker, the challenge that we all face in this House is how best to address the problem of poverty in our respective constituencies. Clearly, the problem of poverty, as experienced in our constituencies, can best be addressed by capacity building at the local level. As we have struggled to address that problem in our respective constituencies, I am sure that all of us here have wrestled with the problem of data at the local level, which is very important in planning. This includes research, monitoring, capacity, project initiation, development and evaluation, and budgeting by local staff. All these are very important capacities that ought to be developed at the local level.

Sir, in our respective constituencies, and speaking for Nalikwanda, we have, of course, the challenge of infrastructure development. We have to develop, for example, our canals, feeder roads and bridges. All these are challenges which we face in our respective constituencies. These infrastructure challenges can best be monitored, initiated and developed by the capacity at the local level in the councils. These are development initiatives that can go a long way in enhancing productivity, marketing and mobility of people in our respective constituencies. Once that is achieved, it will go a long way in addressing the problems of poverty which all of us face.

In addition, we have the challenges of providing water and sanitation services through, for example, the construction of boreholes, and the councils ought to have the capacity to actually improve the provision of water and sanitation services in our respective constituencies. The challenges of schools, that is teachers need decent housing, classrooms and other things in our schools as well as clinics need to be addressed. All these, however, can best be addressed when capacity has been developed at the local level.

This is what will eventually assist each one of us, at the local level, in addressing the problems of poverty. Therefore, given a non-controversial Motion such as this one, which is, at the same time, very important in addressing the problems that affect our people, it is incumbent upon all of us to support it. All our people in different parts of the country are looking for prosperity and improvements in the quality of life of their children and themselves. Clearly, once we have capacitated the local authorities, we are, definitely, going to enable our people to address the problems that affect them.

In addition, Mr Speaker, the critical question, really, is: what type of society are we developing as a nation? Clearly, Zambia can best develop its democracy by ensuring that the local systems are operational, efficient, effective and delivering in various development projects that we are embarking upon as a nation. This is what has created a difference in other countries. If you look at, for example, the American setup, those of us who have lived in that country for a long time, know that it emphasises democratic localism. Not only in America, but, in Europe as well, they strengthen institutions and systems that operate at the local level. That is how their democracy has strengthened the systems of delivering services which have become efficient and effective. Calling for capacity development at the local level is in line with the development aspirations of our nation.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, I agree that this is a non-controversial Motion, but I also wish to remind my colleagues that they are pushing an open door. In fact, if they had cared to consult before brining the Motion to the House, they would have realised that the PF Government, under the leadership of His Excellency, Mr Michael Sata, is already addressing some of the issues they have raised.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: I want to remind my colleagues that, in his address to the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, His Excellency Mr Michael Sata, the President of the Republic of Zambia, confirmed that the Government is committed to restoring the dignity of his people. This will be done through the drive, commitment and activities of the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection.

Mr Speaker, this ministry is the backbone of any government and it is an institution that carries out operations that are closer to the people. However, I also remind my hon. colleagues that capacity building is not a one-all thing or about sending resources to the councils. The hon. Members of Parliament present this afternoon are councillors in the councils that are not functioning to the levels desired by our people. They are part of the councils that are not delivering services to the people. When somebody talks about sending money, one question that begs an answer is: What systems have we developed in the councils? When we talk about lack of capacity in relation to financial systems and accountability, what have we done, ourselves, as councillors? Have we demanded that the technocrats who implement on our behalf account for these things? Capacity building includes human resource development, infrastructure, systems thinking and training. Therefore, I find it ironic that my colleagues here should bring the CDF discourse through the back door. I also want to state that when I talk about audit, I am not talking about auditing of finances. I am talking about audit according to the meaning in the English Dictionary. We are counting everything that we have. We want to know how much land we have, its use, the houses that we have for which we are asking people to pay rates and the kind of things that sit on our land, such as billboards. We are auditing how many markets we have and making sure that there are no party cadres involved in the running of the markets. That is all part of capacity building. The use of cadres in the running of everything which is owned by the Government should come to an end.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, I want to confirm to this august House that my ministry is currently carrying out an audit of the services which it provides so that it can know its capacity gaps. We can only be able to build our capacity when we know our capacity gaps.

Sir, I also want to confirm that my ministry is also investigating the bottlenecks which are making it difficult for councils to perform well. What has made it difficult for our councils to perform? The management teams in councils that I have visited have built houses and are driving vehicles that are not commensurate with their salaries. I have also looked at the salary scales. In some of the councils, the town clerk earns K27 million and the lowest paid council worker earns about K200, 000 plus. I would like to tell my hon. Colleagues that they are pushing an open door. Since the PF Government assumed office five weeks ago, the Ministry of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection has been working around the clock to ensure that it puts things in order. It also appreciates the fact that it must proceed cautiously.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the consultative meetings, I want to inform my hon. Colleagues that in the five weeks I have been sitting in the office, I have had three consultative meetings with the town clerks and other members of the ministry such as those who are heading the water utility companies. As we build the capacity of the different wings of our ministry, we need the water utility companies and the local councils to understand how they fit into our structure. When this is done, problems like the one I will highlight can be sorted out. Councils have been allocating land for the building of petrol stations in what I would refer to as a crazy manner. Some of the land has water pipes. Therefore, we are finding that in some case, the people are drinking water which is mixed with petrol. This dirty water is a source of many diseases. I am sure that Hon. Dr Chituwo and Hon. Dr Kasonde will confirm that this is not a healthy way of conducting business.

Finally, let me say to the hon. Members that this Motion is really pushing an open door. I would like to urge the people to follow our work closely.  They will see that a lot of things are going to change in Zambia.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, the two key words in the Motion on the Floor of this House are ‘urging’ and ‘capacity’. When urging people to do something, you are simply encouraging them to improve upon what they are doing. Why should they improve? This is because life naturally has to be continuously improved. We do not need to go to school to know that the law nature demands that the quality of our lives needs to improve continuously. We always have to ensure that we factor the principles of nature in our planning.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, we have been voted in just for one reason. The people of Kalabo Central voted for Miyutu Chinga, a carpenter, simply because they want me to improve their lives through the work of the PF Government.  It is saddening to note that some people are affected and offended when we talk about the current state of the local government system in Zambia. What must be appreciated is that the local authority is the nearest organ to those who voted us to this House. Why should we neglect the voters today and only remember them when it is time to vote? The voters in Kalabo keep dying of typhoid because of poor governance. I spoke with the doctor in charge at the hospital in Kalabo to find out the cause of this disease. He suspects that it is transmitted through the water which is supplied to the people in the area. This means that whoever has been in Government has contributed to the spreading of typhoid in Kalabo.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: I am not happy that the people in Kalabo Central are dying of typhoid because of the inefficiency of the Government. Therefore, I urge the Government, by supporting this Motion, to build the capacity of our local authorities. Since I live in Kalabo Central, I do not see anything wrong with the Government giving Kalabo District Council the funds which it does not have? There is a learned Treasurer called Linda at this council. Even if she has a degree, she cannot use it to manufacture funds.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Miyutu: There is also an assistant council secretary who has a diploma. Will the diploma produce funds?

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: There is a Mr Nkowani, the Assistant Treasurer, who has a diploma. Will the diploma be used to produce the funds needed for the works on the roads in the area?

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: From the way I am talking, others may think I am happy with the state of affairs even when I am not. In fact, when I came here, I thought I was going to a House which was going to deliver development to the people of Kalabo. Much to my disappointment, the atmosphere I have seen shows me that this House does not want the people of Kalabo to enjoy a good life

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: I do not tell lies because I am incorruptible.  I am going to tell the people in Kalabo that the people you voted for do not want you to enjoy a good life. The people of Kalabo deserve to enjoy a good life because they are part and parcel of this country. Democracy means a government of the people by the people for the people.

Hon. UPND Member: Bulela.

Mr Miyutu: Now, how are these people who are being neglected going to generate funds? Whoever has been to Kalabo will know that this is one of the poorest districts in this country. If professors and people with degrees count the number of years Zambia has enjoyed its independence which is from 1964 to 2011, they would come up with forty-seven.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: In forty-seven years, legitimate governments that have been full of confident and educated people have failed to deliver. How could they have called themselves governments? I doubt their need to be called so.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I doubt the efficiency of these learned people because they are trying to shun the people of Kalabo, Liuwa and Sikongo.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: There are no roads in Sikongo and Liuwa. There is no water that runs from any tap in Liuwa.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I need your protection because people are pointing at me.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am attentively listening to the interesting debate …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, consult quietly.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your protection.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: In short, hon. Members of this august House, the legitimately elected PF Government, which we give due respect, should understand the two words ‘urge’ and ‘capacity’. It ends there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Immediately you forget about these two words, you would have forgotten about the people of Kalabo and I am going to tell them this.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu:  Mr Speaker, I do not hide.

Laughter

Hon. Member: You are a man of truth.

Mr Miyutu: I am a man of truth. I left employment without money and I have survived without it. I am in this House without money.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, we really need to equip the council. Maybe, you only look at the Lusaka City Council. However, let us also put in mind Kalabo District Council. For example, the last time we had a health officer in Kalabo was before 1990.

Hon. Members: Aah! Sure?

Mr Miyutu: Therefore, in Kalabo, we honour the former President Dr Kenneth Kaunda because he cared for us so much.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: In fact, we respect Dr Kaunda more than any other President.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: You know why?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Miyutu: In short, we would want this capacity to be in terms of human and material resources such as funds. Let me illustrate my point. My wife is a very good cook. In fact, I do not enjoy the meals we eat here because they are not prepared by her. However, for my wife to prepare the food, I have to equip her with the necessary tools because she is not going to chop off her hands to cook them as food for me. In the same vein, we need enough money for Kalabo District Council.

I can assure you that if you are not going to provide Kalabo with this type of water, we are not going to appreciate the PF Government (lifted a bottle of mineral water).

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mwenya): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me a chance to contribute to debate on the Motion that seeks to urge the Government to build the capacity of local authorities countrywide in order to achieve effective and efficient management of public resources.

Mr Speaker, this is a very good Motion. As mentioned by the Hon. Minister of Local Government, Housing, Early Education and Environmental Protection, the PF Government has actually taken a position to address most of the challenges raised in the Motion. As the House has seen …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

_______

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 10th November, 2011.