Debates- Wednesday, 30th November, 2011

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 30th November, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_________

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Sylvia Tembo Masebo.

_________

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

SALARIES REVIEW COMMISSION REPORT

41. Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa) asked the Vice-President:

(a)when the Government would publish the report of the Salaries Review Commission constituted in 2010; and

(b)what had caused the delay in publishing the report.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, the Government will publish the report on the Salaries Review Commission after it has been presented to His Excellency, the President, as the appointing authority.

Sir, the delay in publishing the report is caused by the necessity to first present it to His Excellency, the President, on a date soon to be advised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, we saw in the previous Government that commissions that were appointed took time to give reports of very serious national importance. What is the PF Government’s policy towards accelerating the dissemination of such information?

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, the answer to that question, I think, depends on the report: who commissioned it and for what purpose? For example, the report on the sale of the Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL) has already been presented to the President and will be discussed in Cabinet shortly as announced, which is very high efficiency. However, this one, the collective agreements governing public service jobs or the current set of agreements, I think the main ones will be out in April, next year. So, it does not appear to be any great urgency.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

(Debate Resumed)

VOTE 01 – (Office of the President – State House – K34,517,737,951)

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, we are dealing with serious business and, so, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members on my right to listen when His Honour, the Vice-President, is on the Floor.

May His Honour the Vice-President continue, please?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the 2012 estimates of recurrent and capital expenditure for Head 01/01 – Office of the President – State House. From the outset, let me state that State House plays a critical overarching and supervisory role in providing national guidance and overall policy direction to our country. Hon. Members are well aware that it is here that the Executive functions are directed through Cabinet as well as other high level consultations. It is also, indeed, here where the Head of State oversees operations of the Government and exercises his Executive functions.

Mr Chairperson, given this mandate, the policy objective and role of State House has been encapsulated in the mission statement outlined below:

“To provide visionary and effective economic, social and political leadership to the nation in line with the Constitution in order to facilitate sustainable development, and promote peace, stability, rule of law and democratic governance.”

In support of this mission statement, and to give it specific focus and direction, State House seeks to attain the following goal:

“To effectively guard the operations of Government, promote unity, attain economic growth and reduce corruption and poverty in the country.”

Mr Chairperson, the aerial view of the 2012 operations is as follows:

(i)State House welcomed the change of Government from the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) to the ruling Patriotic Front (PF) with renewed hope and reaffirmed commitment and resolve to pursue an outcome-oriented approach in undertaking its planned programmes and activities by adopting robust monitoring mechanisms and the constructive use of database performance reviews, which have kept the institution on track, to effectively and efficiently deliver on its goals;

(ii)State House continued to pursue its role of providing overall national guidance by encouraging locally-driven social and economic initiatives through the empowerment of Zambians while recognising the important role the donor community plays in these initiatives, and by promoting social justice and equity, which form the core of the PF Government’s domestic and foreign policies; and

(iii)State House has, further, striven to create an inclusive Government by opening doors to all stakeholders in running the affairs of the Sate and providing direction to the economy. Through this guidance, the Zambian economy and maintained the stability necessary for sustainable positive growth. The undertaking of these on-going programmes and activities will continue on the basis of the estimates before this august House.

Mr Chairperson, for the information of hon. Members, State House functions are exercised through three key departments, namely:

(i)the Presidential Secretariat, which is responsible for the efficient and effective execution of the day-to-day programmes of the President;

(ii)Advisory Services, which comprises five distinct areas of specialisation with the critical role of providing professional and technical backstopping to His Excellency, the President, on various methods that are brought to the attention of the highest office in the land; and

(iii)Administration, which is charged with the main roles of efficiently and effectively manning staff, providing logistics and material support services in order to facilitate the smooth operations of the institution and maintaining the surroundings of State House and managing the state lodges and state lodge farm.

The Budget estimates before the House will enable State House to carry out operations of these departments and attend to personal emoluments and maintenance and servicing of the VIP fleet and of State House buildings. Let me also mention that, being a part of the world, it is necessary for State House to engage the global community in pursuing the peaceful co-existence and international co-operation necessary for the growth of our economy and society. It is for all these programmes that I wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates for State House as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to State House. First and foremost, I would like to agree with the policy statement that has been pronounced in this House on behalf of His Excellency, the President, by His Honour, the Vice-President, pertaining to the Government and State House. In that light, I would like to …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, order!

I get disturbed when I want to listen and there are loud consultations. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Information, Broadcasting and Tourism and his hon. Deputy Minister to consult quietly.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that State House is the fountain of peace and justice in this nation. Everyone who is resident in this country, foreigners inclusive, looks forward to being protected by State House as an institution. It is in light of the foregoing that I would like to place on record the abominable statements that were made on the Floor of this House by a Presidential appointee in the name of Hon. Sampa, the Minister for Lusaka Province.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province made statements that are obnoxious and not supposed to be said by any leader in this country and, for that matter, on the Floor of this House. I have been in this House for the last ten years, but ...

Hon. Government Members: So what?

Mr Mwiimbu: … I have never heard any hon. Member of Parliament make abhorrent statements and speak of tribal hegemony on the Floor of this House. We are all aware …

The Chairperson: Order, order!

Hon. Government Members interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

I have not asked you to talk on my behalf.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Mwiimbu, much as I appreciate what you are saying, I think that we should zero in on the subject before us.

May you continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the policy direction of this country. I expected the Head of State and the senior leadership of the Government to be mindful of the statements they make that hinge on tribal hegemony. That is a policy issue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I am talking about issues connected to policies pertaining to discrimination. I am talking about issues …

The Chairperson: Order!

We had a long policy debate on general policy matters. For now, we are supposed to concentrate on policies related to the Budget for State House. If we are going to keep getting out of the parameters of the Motion currently on the Floor, then we will delay in finishing the Yellow Book. So, Hon. Mwiimbu, should veer off the route which he has taken and come back to the debate currently on the Floor of the House.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, in agreeing with His Honour the Vice-President, when he said the policy of this country is directed from State House, I wish to state that the policies of this country that emanate from State House, which are being implemented by hon. Ministers, must promote unity in diversity. They must not seem to be dividing this nation. That is the point I am making.

Hon. Government Member: Can you debate policy issues.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am debating policy issues outlined by His Honour the Vice-President.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the Constitution of this country, which is supposed to be guarded jealously by the Government, is against discrimination. Sadly, at present, any one who feels discriminated against in this country has to rush to State House, yet that is not supposed to be the case. State House is only supposed to ensure that the policy direction of the Government is followed by hon. Ministers. If hon. Ministers violate the policy direction of the Government with impunity, …

Mr Hamududu: Akolopa.

Mr Mwiimbu: … with a view of dividing the nation, they should be dealt with by His Excellency the President.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, you have been guiding the senior hon. Member to debate the Motion currently on the Floor of the House. Is he in order to continue defying your guidance in this House?

The Chairperson: That is a useful point of order. I was trying to restrain myself from providing further guidance to the hon. Member in order to see if I could find the linkage between his debate and the issues that are currently on the Floor of the House. I think that, in all fairness, Hon. Mwiimbu should restrict his debate to the Motion on the Floor of the House. It would be unfortunate for me to curtail his debate. So, can Hon. Mwiimbu, please, discuss the matter at hand.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, in order for me to avoid violating your guidance, I would like to be guided as to what constitutes policy issues regarding the matter that is currently on the Floor of this House. I thought that the Vice-President was talking about policy issues.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that your debate has been curtailed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Ba lawyer babufi.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, while still appreciating the need to debate the specific allocations in the Budget, I want to ask your good office to understand that if in earlier debates it allowed hon. Members to divert from specific issues connected to the Budget, which are currently on the Floor, then is it not proper to allow those who are debating after them to debate in the manner they are doing?

The Chairperson: I cannot accept that way of doing things because it is not correct.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

We should just debate the issues that are currently on the Floor of the House. If you have nothing to say regarding the Motion currently on the Floor of the House, then your debate should be stopped because you cannot be allowed to challenge the ruling of the Chair.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: You are all kindly advised to confine your debate to the policy debate, which is currently on the Floor of the House. The rules of this House do not allow hon. Members to challenge the rulings of the Chair. Hon. Muntanga, if you want to participate in the policy debate regarding State House, please do so but, if you cannot do so, then you cannot be allowed to proceed with your debate

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, all the policies that are formulated by the Government are supposed to accommodate the views of the majority of Zambians. Any segregation will not help us at all.  I have taken note that the Budget that you have given State House is not as big as some people expected it would be. There is only a marginal increase of K4 billion. I have noticed also that there is no provision for salary increments for State House staff. I would be surprised if someone was to tell me that there will be no increment at all for the workers at State House. How possible is that?

Sir, the other thing I have noticed in the Budget is that, for the first time, we have included K2 billion to pay outstanding arrears for services and goods. What has happened to State House to take us into arrears and that we should pay K2 billion for the purchase of goods and services? We are concerned with such expenditure, which has made the budget for State House go up to K34 billion.

Mr Chairperson, the new PF Government must tell us what went wrong. Is it that the previous Government did not clear the debts at State House? If it did, then why do we have arrears?

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed, over the years, that we always have an allocation for the maintenance of the buildings at State House.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Check the Budget. Why should we spend on repairs of the buildings at State House every year? How are we maintaining Government houses? Are we maintaining buildings properly? Is this an indication that you have allocated funds towards the maintenance of buildings for most Government ministries in the 2012 Budget? What is the problem?

Mr Chairperson, we have also little increment on the maintenance of animals. I am aware that some animals were removed from State House grounds. Since we have increased the expenditure for the animals at State House, are we going to buy more monkeys?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Are we bringing them back to State House or the few that remained have reproduced? What is the story? We need to know what happened with the wildlife at State House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the estimates for State House. Before I go into the figures, I would like to look at some issues related to the operations at State House.

Mr Chairperson, in the past, hon. Members of Parliament have been complaining, especially Hon. Lubinda, that State House should not be used as a headquarters for one particular party. He made his voice well-known for such complaints. I am hoping that the PF Government is not going to turn State House into its party headquarters. The money that we are going to vote for, today, should not be used for tea and other snacks for PF party meetings at State House, but for Government functions. I hope that this money will be used for the right functions.

Mr Chairperson, we support the PF’s policy of fighting corruption and abuse of office when people are in Government positions. I have not seen any tender being advertised for the renovation of State House, despite going through a number of newspapers. I have seen some contractors working at State House on Independence Avenue although I do not know at what stage those contracts were awarded. Maybe, it was by the MMD Government or the incoming PF Government. However, I want to know why those contracts were awarded without following tender procedures. We must not be picky, if we are going to talk about the fight against corruption and abuse of public office meaningfully. The PF Government will lose the fight against corruption if it starts making exemptions to the rule. If the rule is that public procurement is supposed to be done through open tender, then that should be the case even with State House.

Mr Chairperson, I have also noted that there are many people holding Government positions in the PF Government who seem to be advisors to the President, but not as advisors as we know them, like the Special Assistant for Press, Special Assistant for Legal Affairs and Special Assistant for Economic Affairs. As Cabinet is seated there, hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers, in fact, are the advisors to the President. The hon. Ministers must be able to advise the President without fear on all sorts of matters. The biggest problem that we have in Africa, which I have also seen in the PF Government, is that people are too scared to advise a sitting president.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kakoma: People are scared of losing their jobs. They want to maintain jobs …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, you have advised us that, in this House, we should speak nothing, but the truth. Is the hon. Member in order to say something without laying on the Table any factual evidence to show that any of these hon. Ministers seated here fear to advise the President? Is he in order to mislead the nation without bringing impeccable evidence to support his claim? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members should realise that we are seriously debating the Budget and that, up to a certain point, they can express their opinions and views. I think that His Honour the Vice-President, when he comes to wind up, will be able to respond to some of those opinions being expressed.

You may continue.

Dr Scott showed assent.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I expect the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs …

Mr Chairman: Order!

Do not go back to a ruling that has already been made. Get on with your discussion.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I expect hon. Ministers to provide policy direction to the President regarding their portfolios. I also expect the advisors to advise the President correctly. If he is going to be annoyed with that advice, let them be fired for doing the correct thing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: They should not fear to advise him for fear of losing their jobs.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: They have not always lived on a salary from State House.

The Chairperson: Address the Chair! I am sure we are all aware that we should not debate ourselves. Please move away from that path as you continue, please.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, in the past three months that the President has been in office, some people have been expressing concern about some of the policy pronouncements that have been coming from State House, which could have been avoided if the President was advised adequately.

Mr Chairperson, I am a concerned citizen and hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi West, which borders the Republic of Angola. The people there are living in fear as they do not know what reprisals may arise from the statement from State House that we, as a Government interfered in the war in Angola. They are scared as they do not know what will happen next. The advisors to the President should have adequately advised him about the repercussions of making such a public pronouncement. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should have adequately dealt with that matter.

Mr Chairperson, in Zambezi West, people have lost their cattle because of the war in Angola. They are now wondering whether the problem will repeat itself because of our public admission that we took sides in the war in Angola. That is a serious admission.

Mr Chairperson, in history, some countries have been made to pay reparations for having caused wars in other countries. If we publicly admit that we are the ones who caused the war in Angola, then we are admitting that we can even pay them for the damage caused to that country during the war.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, it is very important that, before committing ourselves to certain foreign policies, we thoroughly debate them so that the President is adequately advised before he makes public pronouncements.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I also want to believe that State House does not make decisions, especially in relation to appointments, before people are thoroughly vetted by the system, which include the Zambia Intelligence Security Service, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and other agencies of the Government, to ensure that the people that the President is proposing to appoint have clean records. However, in the past, we have seen that some people have been proposed to be appointed without going through the vetting system, which has caused embarrassment to State House.

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

It appears that the hon. Member is not zeroing in on the Head under consideration. I am attentively listening to the debate and, when I keep quiet and leave you to go out of topic, it does not mean that you are right. You are cleverly trying to debate something else away from the Budget. We have not even gone past one head because we are not doing what is to be done. The general debate has already been done. We are going astray.

Hon. Kakoma, can you, please, come back in line with the matter at hand.

You may continue.

Mr Kakoma: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your guidance. I stand here to support the Vote for State House. I would like to state that the taxpayers’ money must be used properly and collectively to ensure that there are proper policies emanating from State House for the benefit of this country.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Lusaka Province (Mr Sampa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to debate the Estimates for State House.

Mr Chairperson, arising from the statements made by the senior hon. Member for Monze Central, Mr Jack Mwiimbu, ...

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, this House is regulated by procedures. I did follow the procedure and I know the procedures very well.

Hon. PF Members: Which you did not follow.

Mr Mwiimbu: Do not tell me that.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member for Monze Central may continue with his point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, Is the hon. Minister in order to draw me into his debate when you curtailed mine on the Floor of this House? Unless I am given another chance to rebut, he should not draw me into his debate.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister must take that point of order into account as he debates because there is a point, which I have taken note of. So, can you take into consideration the point of order raised as you debate.

You may continue.

Mr Sampa: Sir, I thank you for the guidance.

Mr Chairperson, before I go any further, I wish to refer to my debate of Friday, 25th November, 2011. I wish to agree with concerns that what the Executive says here carries the policy of the Government. I also agree with the sentiments that what we say here has to be policy statements. I wish to point out and put on record that what I said on Friday, 25th November, 2011 was not Government policy and statement, but my statement. I also wish to agree that my debate on Friday on the Budget Speech had one or two sentences that were off line. My statement that meant well ...

The Chairperson: Order!

I think the hon. Minister is not doing the right thing. We are considering Head 01– Office of the President– State House.  You are going back to your policy statement. Can you zero in on the budget for State House.

You may continue.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that guidance.

Sir, I wish to support the budget for the Office of the President– State House and unreservedly apologise to those I might have hurt on Friday, 25th November, 2011.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor of the House.

To begin with, Mr Chairperson, I want to assure our colleagues on your left that the PF Government is committed to putting the money in the budget for State House to good use. You may have observed that State House, during the previous regime, was extremely dirty. Today, when you pass behind it, you will see that we have already started our ninety days cleaning.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We are busy planting simba grass and flowers behind State House near the Golf Club so that it can be a shining example to the surrounding.

You may wish to know, Mr Chairperson, that State House will not allow any form of shoddy deals to be done as the case was in the previous regime. We will make sure that all the money is applied for the benefit of the Zambian people. State House has made pronouncements to fight corruption to the bitter end.  I can assure our people that this is our commitment and, as the President has said, all the hon. Ministers are ready to follow his instruction and direction in fighting corruption.

Sir, we have advised the company that has been asked to work on the grounds of State House to do a good job, from the traffic lights at the British High Commission up to Woodlands Shopping Centre. We need to clean that area. I am sure you have already seen that some black soil has been taken there, even before the budget is approved, using the previous budget, this is something our colleagues failed to do. We are going to show them that the area can be cleaned up.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to correct the impression created by Hon. Kakoma that State House is agreeing that we caused the war in Angola. To the contrary, there was tension. I want to make it very clear that there was tension between Zambia and Angola. I just came from Angola from the Southern African Development Community (SADC) meeting. It was clearly stated in the bilateral meeting that I had with the Foreign Affairs Minister of Angola that Angola was now prepared to deal with Zambia after the apology. So, if anybody is questioning the apology of the President, then, their line of thought is misplaced because State House has the responsibility to correct a situation when it is informed that one of Zambia’s neighbouring countries is not happy with certain things that it might have done.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: The President did the right thing to send the First Republican President, Dr Kaunda, to Angola to apologise on behalf of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I have always said that he who knows that he knows not is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not know that he knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool forever. That is why …

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Unfortunately, much as that is a quotation, the words you are using are unparliamentary. You can proceed with that in mind.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, what I was basically saying was that, when we realise that a mistake has been made, we must correct it. Our colleagues in the MMD Government had a problem with the Government of Angola and did not want to apologise. However, we apologised on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I was Minister of Foreign Affairs for two years and Minister of Home Affairs for five years in the MMD Government. I extensively interacted with colleagues in Angola at a very high level, including at the Presidential level. My Presidents, Dr Mwanawasa, S.C. and Mr Rupiah Banda, interacted with the President of Angola and there has never been a complaint from Angola that Zambia did anything wrong. Is the hon. Minister in order to come and tell this House that something went wrong between Zambia and Angola during the rule of the MMD Government without producing evidence and laying it on the Table of the House? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Hon. Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha has adequately debated his point of order. I want to seize this opportunity to indicate to hon. Members why we, as Presiding Officers, sometimes, try to encourage you to adhere to discussing the subject under consideration. I know that the reason the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is talking the way he is doing is because I allowed Hon. Kakoma to raise that issue. At that point, I did not think it would become an issue. However, you can, now, understand why we pre-empt that kind of thing by disallowing issues that we consider irrelevant to an issue at hand. Having said that, my ruling is that the hon. Member has adequately debated his point of order. Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, can you veer off that line of debate and get on to the Budget.

You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the truth hurts.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the Budget proposals for State House. For nearly two years, I had the opportunity to work inside State House as Economic Adviser to the late President, Dr Mwanawasa, SC. As such, I can claim that I had a feel of what goes on inside State House, such as the amount of pressure and the tremendous amount of work that needs to be done inside that institution.

Mr Speaker, of course, the President has his hon. Ministers who advise him from time to time and he takes advantage of their presence to receive advice from them. However, because of the amount of pressure, sometimes, there may not be enough time to make consultations with them. This means that the President requires extensive support. That is why there are advisors on legal matters, economic matters, such as those I was handling, advisors on political issues and the press. The President requires that support.

Mr Chairperson, according to what we have seen, so far, there is cause to be worried because of the number of mistakes that are coming from our Head of State. We have seen mistakes like excess the nomination of hon. Members of Parliament in excess of the constitutional provision of eight.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: That would suggest that there was no one inside State House to advise the President that only eight rather than ten are allowed.

The Chairperson: Order!

I indicated that we should not go back to general policy debate. I know that you are trying to link it with the Head under discussion, but we are going out of the way. Can you restrict yourself to the Head under consideration.

You may proceed.

Hon. Government Member: Ne njinga mulandepo!

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. The point that I was trying to develop was that we really need to ensure that we have sufficient resources, in the Budget, so that the President is sufficiently supported. That is my main message. In order for us to do that, we do not need to be very economical as regards fund allocation. We need to find all the resources because State House is the nerve centre of the country. When mistakes are made, we all get embarrassed, including we on the Opposition side.

Hon. Member: Yeah!

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, we really need to make sure that we have sufficient resources to support the President.

Mr Chairperson, there are some people in this House who fear to debate and prefer to heckle, but I will ignore them.

Sir, my last point is that, when I was at State House, there was clear evidence that it required renovation. In the office that I was working, during times such as these, there had to be a dish to capture water leaking from the roof. Therefore, I hope that the resources that have been allocated in the Budget to take care of that will be adequate. You can imagine the embarrassment that you face when there is a leakage after rains. That is not acceptable.

Mr Chairperson, at the same time, in doing the renovations, I concur with some of the colleagues that have said that we need to make sure that proper processes and procedures are followed. I have no quarrel whatsoever about the need for that institution to be renovated.

Mr Chairperson, it is also sad that we are beginning to hear some stories. However, I take it that there will be a ministerial statement as was indicated last Friday. So, we look forward to that.

Mr Chairperson, I support the proposals and thank you.

The Vice-President: I wish to thank all hon. Members who contributed to the debate, starting with the curtailed debater, who agrees with the policy direction here and deplores partisanship based on ethnic lines. If there is anyone who is entitled to deplore it, it is me since naikala neka chabe. This means, I am alone.

Laughter

The Vice-President: So, I agree.

Sir, Hon. Muntanga raised the question of the K2 billion arrears. The answer is that the arrears are genuine. These are unpaid water and power bills and other expenses from the previous regime. These need a provision to get cleared so that goodwill restored.

Mr Chairperson, I agree with the assertions of Hon. Kakoma that State House should not be used for events that are biased towards one party. It is not a party headquarters. I think we all agree with this on the Government side. On the single-sourcing story that seems to be implied in this maintenance work that he notices with his sharp eyes as he speeds down Independence Avenue, as is the story here, all the cases that I have looked at, nothing irregular has been discovered. However, if he were to care to come with more specific information so that we can prove that a particular company or thing is irregular, that would be helpful.

Sir, on hon. Ministers fearing President Sata, hon. Ministers differ in their capacity for fear the same way that all other human beings differ in this aspect. However, I do not fear him. So, I cannot talk for people who do. If there is anybody who knows how to take advice, not necessarily with good grace, but knows how to take it when it is well-intentioned and accurate, it is President Michael Chilufya Sata.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, the apology to Angola has been dealt with. As regards non-vetting of appointees, well, when you are changing people at such a rate, a few errors are bound to occur and you have to pull back.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Sampa tried to apologise, but I do not know whether he succeeded or not.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Hon. Kambwili made, basically, the same point as Hon. Dr Musokotwane, which I thank them both for. They said that it was necessary to clean and maintain, and pay whatever is needed to provide a decent and safe working environment at State House. I have been in State House and got soaked by rain only this year. So, it definitely does need money. It needs sufficient resources and I hope enough are provided.

With that, Mr Chairperson, I thank everybody and urge them to support this Vote.

Thank you, Sir.

VOTE 01/01– (Office of the President– State House– Headquarters– K34,517,737,951).

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001– Salaries Division I– K4, 607,325,748, Activity 002– Salaries Division II– K1,858,257,456, Activity 003– Salaries Division III– K947,019,626, Activity 004– Wages– K1,730,471,136. I would like to know why the increase in salaries for Division I officers is almost K1.6 billion from K3 billion while the increment for the other categories of staff is minimal, yet the officers in Division I are fewer. Why is there such an enormous increase?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, there has actually been no increase. It is simply a realignment of labels. The increase is partly due to the salary increment awarded in 2001, which was 10 per cent, if I recall correctly. However, it is largely due to the realignment of the cost elements within the Personal Emoluments programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3047, Activity 027– Monitoring of National Development Programmes– K1,010,037,500. I would like to know what the increase from K950 million to K1 billion means.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost of logistics for monitoring and evaluating national development programmes. The increase is due to the anticipated rise in the number of monitoring assignments to keep track of national development programmes.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I did not get the explanation on the question that I raised. When we look at Programme 3000, Activity 001, I said that the officers in Division I are fewer, yet the increment from last year is almost K1.6 billion.

Sir, His Honour the Vice-President has indicated that it is due to a salary increment. Why is this increment so huge when employees in Division II, III and those getting wages have a minimal increase? Why such a big increase for Division I officers at State House, who are fewer?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3000, Activity 001– Salaries Division I– K4, 607,325,748, Activity 002– Salaries Division II– K1,858,257,456, Activity 003– Salaries Division III– K947,019,626, Activity 004– Wages– K1,730,471,136, the hon. Member will note that the programme total is unchanged at K9,899,000,000 for both years. There is no change. In fact, Hon. Muntanga drew attention to it in his debate that there is no overall increase. What has happened is that the amount of payments and benefits assigned to Salaries Division I and II is compensated for precisely by the reduction in Other Emoluments, which is Activity 005. It is a relabeling, not a real increment in expenditure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, I think it is just a follow-up on what Hon. Namulambe asked. Although the programme total is still the same, there is an increment for Division I officers. The question is: What has necessitated this high increase, when the officers in Division I are fewer than those in other lower divisions?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I do not know.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02/01– (Office of the Vice-President– Human Resource and Administration– K8,733,238,304).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President for the period 1st January, 2012 to 31st December, 2012. Let me start by thanking you for giving me this opportunity to present these estimates.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to remind hon. Members of this august House that the Office of the Vice-President derives its mandate from Article 45 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. By this statute, the Vice-President is the principal assistant to the President in the discharge of executive functions and is responsible for advising the President with respect to the policy of Government and any such matters as may be assigned to him by the President. From this mandate, the portfolio functions of the Office of the Vice-President include:

(a)leading Government Business in the House;

(b)disaster management and mitigation;

(c)resettlement; and

(d)investiture of ceremonies.

Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President also performs important cross-cutting functions on issues referred to it by line ministries and other institutions. My office is now undertaking extensive consultations with stakeholders to review performance under the 2006 to 2010 Strategic Plan to put in place a new plan, which is a key to its effective operations. As my Government encourages an open door policy, it is my hope that key stakeholders, including hon. Members of Parliament, will offer valuable suggestions to ensure that this important document is reflective of my office’s mandate.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that, during the 2011 Financial Year, my office was allocated K73,529,733,613 broken down as follows:

Department Amount (K)

Human Resources and Administration 8,021,765,272

Parliamentary Business Department 2,621,066,308

Department of Resettlement 3,439,655,182

Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit 59,447,246,851

Mr Chairperson, this amount enabled my office to deal with a number of issues that affected the country, such as the repair of bridges and crossing points.

Sir, for 2012, my office has been allocated K83,432,355,411. With reference to the performance, as indicated earlier, my office houses the Department of Resettlement, which is responsible for implementing the land resettlement programmes. The demand for resettlement has increased over the years. However, low levels of funding have continued to constrain the provision of basic infrastructure planned for a number of resettlement schemes. The department’s importance in the provision of attractive land settlements cannot be over-emphasised since our people need serviceable land to settle and contribute to national development with emphasis on agriculture as the engine of economic growth. The department needs to be supported to ensure that there is a smooth implementation of the resettlement programmes.

Mr Chairperson, my office also houses the Parliamentary Business Division. As you are aware, this is the division that co-ordinates the parliamentary duties of all the ministries, statutory bodies, Government departments and provinces. It also processes questions for oral and written answer, action-taken reports, ministerial statements and various other information memoranda to enable hon. Members make informed decisions.

Sir, in view of the parliamentary reforms that have been implemented in the recent past, it is important that Parliament is well-funded so that the momentum generated is not lost. This department will continue to co-ordinate the Business in the House for effective and efficient decision-making.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the importance of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit, allow me to state that my Government is adequately prepared as a number of disaster prevention and mitigation activities have been put in place. In order to consolidate the successes that the country has had in the area of disaster management, the Patriotic Front Government will continue to lay emphasis on disaster risk reduction as opposed to disaster management. This will be done through appropriate levels of investment in disaster risk reduction and preparedness activities.

Mr Chairperson, my office …

The Chairperson: Order!

You are on Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit, which is a different Head. Can you restrict yourself to Head 02.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I apologise. It is mistakenly in this file. Nevertheless, I will skip it and come back to it when we come to Head 19, which is Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit. This is simply for formality.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to say a few general remarks about the 2012 Budget to the House. As indicated in the Budget Address, the 2012 Budget is presented under the theme, “Making Zambia a Better Place for All.” It is my Government’s intention to see to it that it fulfils its campaign promises in meeting the aspirations of the people of Zambia. Hon. Members will appreciate that my office plays a critical role in that regard. That is clear. Therefore, I can only urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the estimates of expenditure for the office to ensure that we fully meet the expectations of the people.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Vote for the Office of the Vice-President, I wish to state that I can see that this budget has gone below 35 per cent and that this allocation is quite small. My concern is on resettlement schemes. Many Zambians would like to have farms. I, therefore, urge His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that the officers in charge of these resettlement schemes take quick action to make sure that the land set aside for resettlement schemes is allocated. We have had certain areas where these resettlement schemes under the Office of the Vice-President have been opened up, but no titles have been issued for about fifteen years and people would come and start demanding this land.

Sir, in Kalomo, a resettlement scheme was opened up but, because there was no title, the headmen wanted that land converted into traditional land. Even then, the Office of the Vice-President and the resettlement officers did not know what to do. The Commissioner of Lands knew that the land was allocated to the Office of the Vice-President and the council says it cannot touch the Commissioner of Lands. In this regard, I would like to urge His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that the resettlement schemes are properly administered. If there is a need to give title to this land, let it be given.  If you cannot sort this problem out, let that land be converted into customary land so that people can have access to it. This way, we will stop worrying about these dormant resettlement schemes.  Therefore, as we approve the Budget, let us ensure that the resettlement schemes are properly managed.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I wish to support this Vote. However, in doing so, I would like to raise a few issues in relation to the resettlement schemes.

Mr Chairperson, on the Copperbelt, there are some resettlement schemes, such as Kambilombilo in Lufwanyama, Myengwe in Masaiti and Lukanga North in Mpongwe, my constituency. These resettlement schemes, however, are not what they are supposed to be. The boundaries are established on paper, but no services are provided for the people who resettle there. The schemes lack clinics, roads, schools and, in most cases, water.

Mr Chairperson, the Lukanga North Resettlement Scheme has no river nearby. As such, people depend on the few boreholes that have been sunk either with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) or by the Provincial Resettlement Office. Worse still, the scheme has been under dispute with Mpongwe Farms Limited for quite some time because part of its Block C falls under Mpongwe Farms Limited, which is 66,000.1 hectares. 

Mr Chairperson, time and again, we have tried to see whether Mpongwe Farms Limited could be partitioned so as to separate the resettlement scheme from the farm, which was established under a Government programme to establish a tobacco scheme, then Lukanga Development Company, which was to solely grow tobacco on behalf of the State. The boundaries of this farm, however, were drawn using an aerial mapping system. When the resettlement scheme was established in Mpongwe, it was found that the farm had encroached into the resettlement scheme. As a result, there is always a conflict between the owner of the farm and the settlers, who have been settled there by the Government.

I wish to request His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that part of Block C of Lukanga North Resettlement Scheme, which is in Mpongwe Farms Limited, is partitioned so that the settlers are free. Currently, they cannot do anything because the owner of the farm is always raising issues. We would also like to see the settlers in this area provided with the necessary services that they require.

Furthermore, it is puzzling, to me, that, when local people apply for land in the resettlement scheme, their applications are turned down in preference for people from far off places. These people get this land but, upon realising that their portions are not enough, abandon it without even informing the Provincial Resettlement Officer. As a result, most of the plots are vacant, making it very difficult to assist the people who have settled there when they ask for help. Very few people have gone to settle in those areas. It is, therefore, important that, when consideration is being made to resettle people on these schemes, we ensure that they move there and are not absentee farmers. Some of these people simply leave employees to work on these pieces of land without paying them. It is, therefore, important that the Department of Resettlement is adequately funded to allow officers to inspect the farm plots that are given out and ensure that development takes place. Needless to say, the intentions of these resettlement schemes were good, in some cases, but we miss it when it comes to implementation.

Mr Chairperson, like the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central has indicated, traditional leaders have requested that, if the Government cannot manage the resettlement schemes, the best it can do is give the pieces of  land back to them so that they can start giving it to the people they feel can put it to good use.

Hon. Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Namulambe: If left to the officers to apportion the pieces of land, they will not see any need or benefit for the resettlement schemes. Nonetheless, the intentions for creating these schemes were good.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful to both contributors who pointed to the problematic area of the activities of my ministry, the resettlement schemes.

This Department of Resettlement was born many years ago when the ‘go back to the land’ policy was foremost in the Government’s vocabulary. It was intended for retirees, vendors or the unemployed. The then President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, determined that people should go back to the land. What we have, now, is really a hangover from then. The best known resettlement scheme is, probably, Kanakantapa in Chongwe Constituency, of which we, now, have a representative. I am sure she will speak when she recovers from the shock of that massive win.

Laughter

The Vice-President: There are, however, many others and, because it is a sort of vestigial thing, it is under-funded. It has nothing to do, for example, with the farming blocks such as Nansanga, which is an entirely separate programme under separate management. It also has nothing to do with the establishment of State farms like the Mpongwe Farms Limited once was. It was set up by the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) and by me in particular in 1978. I thought I should mention this so that we know that we are all talking about the same place.

I am aware of the Lukanga North problem and understand it well. The problem of title deeds or the Land Act not providing for the reversion of land to traditional tenure or customary tenure when the purpose for which it was alienated has seemed not to be fulfilled is a genuine problem in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It is a very big problem. My personal undertaking to Hon. Muntanga is that I will chivvy the various people involved in this issue to make sure that we get some sanity in this business of land administration, not just in Southern Province, although it is particularly severe there, but countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I would like to urge the House to overwhelmingly support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 02/01– (Office of the Vice-President– Human Resource and Administration– K8,733,238,304).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, since His Honour the Vice-President did not know the other part of State House employees’ salaries, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001– Salaries Division I– K792,166,818. I have noticed that there is a reduction of salaries for Division I officers from K863,071,067. I do not know whether you are going to reduce salaries for the employees in this category. On Activity 002– Salaries Division II– K471,679,869, there is a minimal increase from K449,773,128. Likewise, on Activity 004– Wages– K523,280,000, from K469,410,368. This means that these are normal-notch increments. Why is there such a discrepancy between the officers under State House who will have an abnormally high increase of salaries and these officers here who are going to have a reduction in salaries?

The Chairperson: His Honour the Vice-President, if you may concentrate on this Head.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3000– Personal Emoluments, Activity 001– Salaries Division I, K792,166,818, this provision is required to pay staff in Division I. The decrease is due to the abolition of one post.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Wamvela, Namulambe?

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02/03– (Office of the Vice-President– Resettlement Department– K3,806,994,263).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 001– Office Administration– K170,344,067. I have noted an increase from K82,786,156 to K170,344,067. What is the cause of this increase in that budgetary provision?

The Chairperson: We are on page 5, Programme 3001– General Administration, Activity 001– Office Administration– K170,344,067 that has been increased from K82,7886,156.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost of carrying out office administration functions at the Department of Resettlement Headquarters. The increase in the allocation of funds is due to an increase in office administration demands. I hope that these funds will assist in improving the administration of these resettlement schemes.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 004– Agricultural and Commercial Show– K42,200,000 and Activity 007– International Trade Fair– K51,925,000. There is an increment of about K12 million on Activity 007. Sir, I was of the idea that there were more activities on Activity 004 than Activity 007. May His Honour the Vice-President shed some light on why there is an increment of K12 million on Activity 007.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, experience has shown that Activity 007 is an International Trade Fair, but has been under-funded. It was given the same funding total last year as the Agricultural and Commercial Show, but the allocation was not enough for the International Trade Fair. Therefore, this provision is required to enable the department to effectively participate at the International Trade Fair. The increase is due to the need for the department to improve its exhibits, whereas Activity 004- Agricultural and Commercial Show, requires only a very marginal increment, in fact, not even in line with the inflation rate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 021– Dip Tank Construction– K61,200,000. The allocation has been increased from K9,100,000 to K61,200,000, but I would like to find out where the dip tanks will be constructed and for what, since this office is just in charge of resettlements?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this is another example of an increase in infrastructure development in the resettlement areas. The provision is required to meet the cost of constructing dip tanks in resettlement schemes to help in reducing cattle diseases.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The increase is due to the demand for increased support. Hon. Muntanga will note that, in 2011, only K9,100,000, which is pretty much the cost of a single tank, was provided against this Vote. However, there is an amount that is enough for six or seven tanks in the 2012 Budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 003– Construction of Office Block– K103,000,000. Where will this office block be put up? Further, on Activity 021– Dip Tank Construction– K61,200,000, His Honour the Vice-President has indicated that they are going to construct dip tanks in resettlements schemes, but is this allocation sufficient to construct a dip tank?

The Vice-President: As regards the second question, Mr Chairperson, given the lamentable decay in the animal health infrastructure that has taken place over the last forty or forty-seven years, I could say, of course, that it is not adequate. Nothing is adequate. We are going to have to keep hitting away at it in trying to get it right over a period of years.

Sir, the question of the office block, although it is in singular form here, the details I have say this provision is required to meet the cost of constructing office blocks for resettlement scheme managers in various resettlement schemes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 001– Scheme Access Road Development– K296,182,500.  I understand that this Government would like to construct dip tanks. However, may I know why an essential programme of constructing roads in the resettlement schemes has had its funding reduced? Why should this be so because construction of roads is primary, not the dip tanks he has talked about?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to meet the cost of clearing, forming and maintaining access roads in resettlement schemes. The reduction is necessitated by the increased number of other infrastructure development activities. In other words, it is competing with the increase in allocations for dip tanks and the provision of clean water. Therefore, it has had to be reduced accordingly to balance the books.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02/04 – (Office of the Vice-President – Parliamentary Business Department – K3,238,029,124).

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3107, Activity 007 – Parking Fees – K25,000,000. I note that there was no allocation for parking fees in the previous Budget but, suddenly, we are budgeting for K25 million for this activity next year. May I find out what this money will be spent on. Since this activity is under the Parliamentary Business Department, will the National Assembly be charging parking fees? May the Vice-President give an explanation to justify this allocation.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, in the last Budget, this activity was included under office administration. In line with the activity-based budgeting guidelines, it has now been given its own specific head. So, this is an on-going activity that was running under Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration. The variance is due to isolation of funds from office administration following the revision of the activity-based Budget, Phase II.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to have clarification on page 7, Programme 3001, Activity 001 – Personnel-Related Costs – K108,542,959. Can His Honour, the Vice-President, please, explain what these personnel-related costs are because I would have thought these would have been considered under Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K20,000,000.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3001, Activity 001 – Personnel-Related Costs – K108,542,959 is required to meet personnel related-costs. It is a new activity in 2012 and the variance is due to the fact that the activity is being introduced for the first time in this coming year.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 9, Programme 3051, Activity 010 – Government Action Taken Reports – K260,400,000. I have seen an increase from K40 million to K260 million for that activity. What has caused this?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3051, Activity 010 – Government Action Taken Reports – K260,400,000 on page 9 does, indeed, show an increase from K40 million to K260 million. I hope we are all on the same page. However, if you look at Programme 3051, Activity 008 – Production of Government Action Taken Reports –K30,000,000,  you will notice that it has gone down from K365 million to K30 million. In fact, this is an artifact of the accounting convention being changed. So funds have now been relocated from Activity 008 to Activity 010. This provision is required to meet the cost of committee work during the preparation of the draft Action Taken reports. The variance is due to separation of printing costs from committee work. So, the committee work comes under Activity 008, which is accordingly low, and the printing cost will now come under Activity 010.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I have noticed a new item on page 8, Programme 3103, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K60,000,000. What is this staff welfare?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this is a new programme and activity. However, it was previously under Programme 3003 – Capacity Building, as a small component. So, the variance is, again, due to repositioning in the accounts.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
  
VOTE 04/01 – (Gender and Child Development Division – Human Resource and Administration Department – K7,026,716,005).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I wish to remind this august House that the Gender in Development Division of Cabinet Office has been merged with the Department of Child Development at the former Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development to make the Gender and Child Development Division within Cabinet Office. In this regard, the mandate of the Gender and Child Development Division (GCDD) is to coordinate, monitor and evaluate the implementation of the national gender and child policies to ensure equity, gender responsiveness and child development. The Division has five departments, namely, the Economic and Finance; Information and Documentation; Social, Legal and Governance; Child Development; and Human Resource and Administration.

Economic and Finance Department

Mr Chairperson, in 2012, the Department of Economic and Finance will implement three programmes, namely, monitoring and evaluation, promotion of gender balance and economic empowerment of women. The focus of the promotion of gender balance will be on conducting gender audits in line ministries. These activities are part of the long term programme to determine the status of gender mainstreaming in the public service, which started in 2010. The results of gender audits will provide a basis for mainstreaming gender issues in the sectors concerned.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of the economic empowerment of women, the objective is to support activities meant to achieve the empowerment of women. I wish to take this opportunity to inform this august House that in the 2011 Budget year, a lot of equipment was procured and distributed to women’s groups across the country. These included 310 hammer mills, sixty rice polishers, sixty-five solar dryers and forty-five oil expellers. In addition, 137 women groups across the country benefited from grants of which a total of K793 million was disbursed. In 2012, the focus will continue to be on providing equipment and grants to support the women’s clubs, training of women’s clubs in entrepreneurship development and corporate governance, conducting exposure visits for women and providing grants and start-up capital to deserving women’s groups. This is in line with the President’s Speech delivered in this House on the 14th October, 2011, indicating his administration’s determination to increase support to women’s participation in viable economic activities.

Department of Information and Documentation

Mr Chairperson, in 2012, the Department of Information and Documentation will implement four programmes, namely, events, information management, research and documentation, and monitoring and evaluation. The focus of the events programme will be the commemoration of the International Women’s Day, exhibition at the Zambia International Trade Fair and Agricultural and Commercial Show. The purpose of these activities is to disseminate information on gender and development and to get feedback from the general population on Government programmes on gender.

Social, Legal and Governance Department

Mr Chairperson, in 2012, the Social, Legal and Governance Department will implement five programmes, namely, capacity building, publicity, policy and planning, promotion of gender balance, and monitoring and evaluation. The focus of the capacity building programme will be the sensitisation of stakeholders on the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Gender and Development Protocol. Under the promotion of gender balance, the focus will be on undertaking gender audits in the social sector, mainstreaming gender in the social sector ministries and coordinating the process of ratifying the SADC Protocol on Gender and Development.

Department of Child Development

Mr Chairperson, regarding the Department of Child Development, my Government attaches a lot of importance to the protection and promotion of children’s rights in this country. This has been manifested through the creation of the Gender and Child Development Division within cabinet office and, therefore, the elevation of issues of child welfare on the development agenda of the nation. This development will enable my Government to effectively review and enact legislation and formalise policies that will create an environment in which children can develop to their fullest potential. Programmes have been outlined in the 2012 work plans to address the plight of orphans and vulnerable children, especially, children on the street, child-headed households and abused children. These interventions will be implemented in collaboration with our partners and local and international non-governmental organisations (NGOs).

Mr Chairperson, my Government will also undertake programmes to educate the nation on the importance of respecting children’s human rights in order to reduce their violation and abuse. Furthermore, my Government will continue to coordinate, monitor and capacity-build institutions caring for children in order to ensure that they conform to the many standards of service delivery in their practice.

Mr Chairperson, all this will be implemented through the following major programmes:

(i)commemoration of children’s mark days;

(ii)provision of grants to …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

It is inconceivable that when His Honour the Vice-President is speaking hon. Members from my right should be talking because you are disturbing the Floor of the debate. Please, if you have to consult you can go out in the corridors.

Can His Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President: I will go back, Mr Chairperson.

All the foregoing programmes will be implemented through the following major programmes:

(i)commemoration of children’s mark days;

(ii)provision of grants to institutions’ operations;

(iii)infrastructure development;

(iv)policy formulation and legal review;

(v)monitoring and evaluation

(vi)child development advocacy; and

(vii)child protection.

Department of Human Resource and Administration

Mr Chairperson, in 2012 the Department of Human Resource and Administration will implement eight programmes, namely, events, personal emoluments, general administration, capacity building, dismantling of arrears, financial management and accounting, cross-cutting issues and record management. The focus in personal emoluments will be salaries, wages and other emoluments that include leave travel and long service bonus. Under general administration, the focus will be on office administration, which includes fuel, insurance and maintenance of motor vehicles; support to the Office of the Deputy Minister and payment of utility bills. Under events, the focus will be on participation in relevant regional and international gender meetings while, under capacity building, the focus will be on long term training for staff in accordance with the 2012 training programme.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude my policy statement, I wish to take this opportunity to appeal to hon. Members of this august House to support the proposed 2012 Budget for the GCDD.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Any further debate? Yes, this is the time when you are supposed to debate. Mr Mbulakulima.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to make some few remarks in support of this Vote. I, personally, believe that this is one area that is not receiving much attention and I want to say this generally without apportioning the blame because, as a country, I think we have not moved in the right direction.

Mr Chairperson, the world, today, is grappling with poverty and we believe that two-thirds of the global population consists of women and children. Further, two-thirds of the people who are poor on earth consist of women and children. However, the resources allocated to this area are very inadequate and that is why I believe that we have not done well. I will just say that without apportioning blame. I am glad that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, apart from being responsible for resource allocation also has got an institutional memory.

Mr Chairperson, you are aware, the budget is a key instrument through which resources are allocated to programmes that promote poverty reduction. Year in and year out, the allocation to gender matters is very minimal. How are we going to fight poverty if resource allocation is minimal for gender matters? I know that one argument will be that gender matters are cross-cutting, but we need to focus fully on gender matters.

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that, in the 1970s, there was a realisation by the United Nations (UN) that women needed to be the key drivers of development in order to avoid their being passive recipients of economic development. That is why the UN declared the period between 1975 and 1985 the decade for women and instructed countries all over the world to mainstream issues of gender in their development programmes. This was why, in Zambia, under the United National Independence Party (UNIP), we created the Women’s League. At that time the women’s presence in the development process was very visible. However, since 1996, when the Women Development Unit, which later developed into a division, was established, the participation of women in our development process started reducing. There is a need for us, as a country, to allocate more money to this area. What the women are asking for is, basically, that they have more access to property and participate in the decision-making processes fully.

Mr Chairperson, in 2006, less than 18 per cent of hon. Members of Parliament were women. This was below the target of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on women’s representation in Parliament. If I were to become President, the Ministry of Gender and Child Development would be among the top five key ministries if at all we are to provide the resources that are worth talking about for gender matters.

Mr Chairperson, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to allocate more resources to this important area in future if he is serious with his efforts to fight poverty. There is also a need for us to enhance the status of this division. If you recall, in the 1970s, when it was created, women like Mary Fulano and Mama Kankasa were more visible than the women of today. To make matters worse, the position of the one handling gender matters has been relegated to the level of hon. Deputy Minister.

Sir, women across the globe, today, are complaining that very little attention has been paid to their issues. Even at the World Bank, the gender division has been abolished. There is more emphasis, now, on environmental issues. That is fine, but there is still a need for us not to ignore the plight of our women.

Mr Chairperson, I am glad to note that some of the allocations especially under economic empowerment are targeted towards technological advancement. We have a very big task of collecting data on gender matters. For a long time, it was believed that the division would adequately be represented by focal point persons across the country, especially at the provincial level, who would be helped by the provincial development co-ordinating committees and the district development co-ordinating committees. However, today, all these structures have collapsed. Therefore, there is a need for us to revisit the strategies for handling gender matters before allocating more resources to this area.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

The Chairperson: I was going to give the Floor to Ms Imenda, but I have just realised that she is improperly dressed.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank His Honour the Vice-President for an excellent presentation and would like to agree with all the …

The Chairperson: I beg your pardon.

Let me correct my mistake. It is not Ms Imenda, but Ms Lubezhi who is improperly dressed. In the light of this, maybe, let me take this opportunity to ask madam Lubezhi to go and dress up properly.

Ms Lubezhi left the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Government Member: She is just fine. There is nothing wrong with her dressing.

Mr Mwiimbu: … figures that the Government has proposed to this House for the operations of its wing which we are currently debating. I urge everyone to support them.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the estimates, I want to draw the attention of the House to page 14, Programme 3007− Dismantling of Arrears, Activity 004− Outstanding Bills where there is …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I must apologise to the lady for disturbing her debate. Is it in order for her to continue debating on the Floor of this House without stating how improperly dressed she is. As a Chair, you directed an improperly dressed lady to go and dress properly without stating what improper dressing was in the context of this House. Is it in order for the lady who is speaking …

The Chairman: Order!

Unfortunately, you cannot challenge the ruling of the Chair while on the Floor of this House. If you want to do so, there are other avenues which you can use.

The hon. Member for Luena may continue.

Ms Imenda: In support of the budget for the Gender and Child Division, I want to draw the attention of the House to page 14, Programme 3007– Dismantling of Arrears, Activity 004– Outstanding Bills– K827,643,613. What are these arrears are all about?

I would also like to mention that if the earlier response by His Honour the Vice-President to a similar issue is anything to go by, then I would also like to draw the attention of the House to Programme 3001– General Administration, Activity 040– Utility Bills– K384,000,000 for 2011. If these arrears include utility bills, then what happened to the amounts that had been provided for in the 2011 Budget?

Mr Chairperson, as we discussed earlier, institutions like the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company and other utility companies all over the country are failing to provide adequate services to the public because they are owed a lot of money by the Government. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to tell us what these arrears comprise. If they comprise utility bills, then I would only have one question: What happened to the provision of K384 million for that purpose in the 2011 Budget?

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate currently on the Floor of the House.

In the first place, I want to adopt Hon. Mbulakulima’s contribution as my own. Secondly, let me take this opportunity to applaud the officials in the Gender and Child Development Division for doing so much under very difficult conditions with a minimal budget. I also want to thank them for the support they gave me when I was running the division. I am proud to say that most of my colleagues, both on the right and left, are here because of the great job the men and women are doing at the division.

Mr Chairperson, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) should be increased. I am sure most of the hon. Members were elected back to this House because of the hammer mills they purchased and gave out using the CDF.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Sayifwanda: The total budget that has been allocated to the division is K29,059,524,209. This is completely inadequate because funds for monitoring have also been included in the same amount. I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to increase the CDF because it helps solve some of the problems that our women face.

Mr Chairperson, a piece of legislation on women empowerment was adopted during the last sitting, which must be translated into all the local languages. That is why I said, at the beginning, that the funds that have been provided in the Yellow Book are insufficient because there are many things that are supposed to be done by the division. I urge the Government to increase the funding to the division because it does a lot of work and needs to attend to many cross-cutting issues. As the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will be looking into the possibility of increasing the CDF, let him also explore ways of increasing the allocation to the division.

With these few remarks, I thank you very much, Sir.

The Chairperson: Before I allow the next debater to take the Floor, you have to excuse me. We have to follow the rules. The hon. Member for Zambezi East, who has just finished contributing, is equally improperly dressed. Thus, she should leave the House to go and dress properly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda left the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are all crying out against the low funding that has been allocated to the Gender and Child Development Division. I have noticed that the allocation to the Department of Child Development has increased from K2 billion in the 2011 Budget to K8,548,347,136 billion in the 2012 Budget. This shows how serious the Government is in its efforts to deal properly with issues of child development. A few things have been reversed. We now have a new hon. Deputy Minister.

My main concern is that there is a reduction to the allocation for women in development issues from K900 million to K400 million. It is unfortunate that no money has been allocated for sensitising women on the dangers of drug trafficking.  Of late, a number of Zambian women have been caught trafficking in drugs in a number of countries. We are sometimes lucky in one complete week not to hear of a Zambian woman caught trafficking in drugs. Previously, the Government used to budget for the sensitisation of women against the dangers of involving themselves in this scourge. I would like the Vice-President to explain why the Government has done away with that allocation as he winds up the debate. Drug trafficking is a serious issue, and it must be emphasised that gender refers to both men and women. I also wish to state that it appears as though the new Government wants to push women back into the kitchen. Why should this be so? This is the time when we need to have more women in the top governance positions of this country. We need more women in this House. Maybe, women should consider setting up a women’s liberation movement because the current mechanisms are not helping them at all. It is unfortunate that funding has been reduced to some areas under the division when a lot of work needs to be done. I do not know how many more women will remain in the House who are improperly dressed.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you, please, withdraw those remarks and carry on with the subject on the Floor of the House.

You may continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the remarks.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation for the division needs to be increased for the benefit of our womenfolk. This division is important. I sometimes think that perhaps the Vice-President should be a woman since the Gender and Child Development Division falls under the Office of the Vice-President. I know that the current one is not a woman and does not even behave like one. I urge the Vice-President to explain when he winds up debate for this allocation why money has been reduced for some programmes that can benefit women immensely. We started expecting so much from the division when it gave us hammer mills and other machinery.  Unfortunately the allocation for such equipment has been shifted to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. The women will not get anything from that allocation. This is my worry. I think that the 2012 budget for women in development is not what most of us expected.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, I have three issues regarding gender that I will look at. I want to remind this Government of some of the experiences that we have gone through in the last five years regarding gender issues. One problem that we experienced in our constituencies that I want to bring to the attention of the Government is that our women face a number of difficulties when registering their clubs. It is literally impossible for some women clubs in far-flung areas to access Government support because their clubs have not been registered.

Therefore, the Government must put in place a facilitative mechanism to ensure that women in far-flung places, such as Nchelenge, Shang’ombo and Kaputa, can easily register their clubs in their districts. Currently, it is difficult for women to send their forms to Lusaka to have their clubs registered. If these clubs are not registered, it becomes impossible for the women to receive the facilities as it happened last year with hammer mills and other equipment. Please, help this division. We should have inter-ministerial dialogue so that this division can be helped by other ministries that are responsible for registration of clubs. Otherwise, most of our women’s clubs are not registered and, therefore, cannot take advantage of the opportunities that the Government is making available.

Sir, the other point is that the Government must continue with what we saw working. For example, the distribution of facilities to address issues of gender must be constituency-based. If there are hammer mills, the formula for their distribution should be based on constituencies so that there is equity around the country. That lesson must be learnt so that there is fairness.

Mr Chairperson, the last point is on the issue of distribution. Hon. Members of Parliament were forced to pick equipment and take to their constituencies. I think that this is a bit dangerous. Hon. Members can be involved in accidents and others do not have vans. The equipment can be taken to districts across the country and then the constituencies concerned can pick them from there. At the moment, a person from Kaputa has to pick a hammer mill from Lusaka. I think that must be redressed. Otherwise, we can have all this equipment around to help women and raise issues of gender imbalance, but people will not receive the services because of some logistical issues that the Government must address. I think we must streamline.

With these few words, I thank you Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: … I stand here to appreciate the services rendered to our dear women because even we, in Kalabo, at least, …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: …  received the hammer mills and our mothers there are happy.

However, on Page 17, Programme 3150, Activity 006– Women’s Exposure Visits– K136,779,800, Activity 008– Training of Business Women in Corporate Governance and Communication– K104,129,800 and Activity 009– Training of Women Clubs in Entrepreneurship Development– K98,937,300. These three should be considered seriously in relation to the distance.

Mr Chairperson, as regards training, in our rural constituencies, our mothers are usually forgotten. I would urge the new Government to consider entrepreneur women who are seriously engaged in economic activities, but lack knowledge. I, therefore, request that the training should include rural women. Let not the trainings be for Lusaka only. I have always emphasised on Lusaka because there is a lot of money being spent here at the expense of the rural women. We would appreciate seeing our rural mothers also being trained so that they can continue to spread the news.

Secondly, in the former Government, we used to see that such issues could be targeted at political activists, not the rightful entrepreneurs. Let us not mistake the entrepreneur for a political activist. If it is training, let us identify the women entrepreneurs and let them go for training, instead of favouring our political cadres who, when they come back from training, do not disseminate what they would have learnt. It will not help us.  This is all I wanted to put forward.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Budget for Gender and Child Development Division, (GCDD), I would, first of all, like to congratulate the newly-appointed hon. Minister to that very important ministry. She actually fits in very well. She is equal to the task and we are sure that a lot will be done in that division.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: Sir, I am also aware that the GCDD is a very serious and strategic division in the Office of the Vice-President. As the new hon. Minister takes her seat in that division, I am confident that, with the staff that is in that very important division, she will excel in her duties. We have many professionals. The GCDD is very close to my heart because I once worked there. Hon. Minister, you will find professionals in Joe Kapembwa and others who are very up to date on gender issues.

Sir, speaking from my own experience, the funding in that division has been very inadequate, especially when it comes to operations. You will note that hon. Members who have spoken before me have lamented the way they were transporting equipment that was procured by the GIDD. How could the GIDD have provided transport when money for operations is very minimal? I know that the division can do more if all of us stood up as one and supported them. We need to do that.

Sir, I know that line ministries have been encouraged to streamline gender issues in most of their programmes. However, I am not sure if this is really happening because it is like this task has only been left to the GCDD. It is important that even line ministries take up the challenge of promoting this aspect. The aspect of gender is not only about women, it is cross-cutting. That is why you will find that the former Permanent Secretary in the GIDD was a man. The Director for Finance is also a man. This shows that it is not a ministry for women alone, but one in which all of us can find our footing.

Mr Chairperson, I would like the GCDD to go a little further in the way it operates.  I know there are financial constraints, but it is not very visible at the provincial level. It is important that, as it does its activities, the division has focal point persons in provinces to really deal with issues of gender. If we do not do that, things will only be happening here, in Lusaka, but never in Bahati Constituency. It is important that it boils down to the very people that you want to represent. I know that the issue of moving from macro to micro are quite difficult, but for gender, they are very straight forward. It can easily be done if only we can decentralise the GCDD further by going to the province and the district until the village level.  More often, it is our women who are left out of these issues. They must also begin to participate actively.

I would also want to congratulate His Excellency the President on the fact he has factored gender issues very prominently in the way he has made his appointments. We know that, out of ten police commissioners, six are women. That is a very welcome measure because women are taking up an active role in society and, as they say, when you educate a woman, you have educated the world. So, it is important that issues of gender are taken very seriously. I, therefore, agree with Hon. Mbulakulima when he said that it should be given serious prominence in our country. It is not be a by-the-way thing. Issues of gender are very serious and sensitive in our homes and our country at large. It is important that they get the attention that they deserve.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Member: Proper policy debate.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the smaller Budget items are the ones that attract the most verbosity or the most interest. This participation is good.

Sir, I think that there was a general sense that this department was, somewhat, under-funded. It has actually gone up from K22 billion to K29 billion across the years, except that it is a bit complicated because of the fusion of the two divisions of the children and the gender. I, certainly, sympathise with that and I am sure that these things will be attended to when they can be attended to. At the moment, we have focused, of course, on the four big policy areas that are highlighted in the PF Manifesto. These are agriculture, health, education and local Government. Even local government, under the new conception, is more women-affecting and children-affecting by having more responsibilities for children and children’s health, which have a gender component implicit in them. Of course, there is the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, as well, which has women’s empowerment in quite larger quantities.

Furthermore, the complaint from Hon. Muntanga to the effect that there is no drug-trafficking sensitisation, apparently, was quite wrong. The provision for sensitisation will be captured under the support of gender mainstreaming at the district. Key activities include sensitisation on gender-based violence, including the dangers of drug-trafficking. Therefore, again, I think that a lot of it is the same money hiding under different headings or programmes. I liked Hon. Mwiimbu’s contribution most when he said that he supported this component of the budget and sat down.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, as regards the increase of the allocation to gender, the registration of clubs is difficult. Clearly, this needs to be attended to, but it is not a budgetary issue, at the moment, but an organisational one. I hear the point on making these things constituency-based, but I am not altogether convinced because the point made by the hon. Member for Kalabo about their politicisation is the consequence and hammer mills being purported to be gifts from the hon. Member of Parliament’s pocket. It is an issue and I think we have to be weary of it.

Sir, with that, I urge the House to back this important component of the Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 04/01– (Gender and Child Development Division– Human Resource and Administration Department– K4,202,860,695).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3011, Activity 044– Database Management, Programme 3042, Activity 003– Sports and Social Activities, Programme 3047, Activity 016– Provincial Monitoring and Evaluation Visits, and Programme 3103, Activity 001– Staff Performance Assessment and Activity 012– Payroll Management. There is no provision for next year. What is the reason for that?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, there has been a relabeling exercise going on. Unfortunately, my notes do not say where it has gone, but I am sure that it has gone somewhere.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I will attempt to find out. The Vice-President is only as good as his own ‘Vees’.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I thank you, Sir.

Vote 04/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 04/03– (Gender and Child Development Division– Information and Documentation Department– K724, 567,079).

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, Programme 3047, Activity 016– Provincial Monitoring and Evaluation Visits– K58,164,800. On the Sector Advisory Group (SAG) meeting, I have noticed that there is no budget for 2012. What I know is that the Gender Division is the focal point for gender mainstreaming for all ministries. This is where information is shared by Government ministries, spending agencies as well as the civil society in terms of what progress is made in regard to gender mainstreaming. May I know why there has been no budget for the SAG meetings under gender for 2012.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to announce that provincial monitoring and SAG meetings have been provided for under the Economic and Finance Section Programme 3152, Activity 011. Provided under economic empowerment is the answer to the other one.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 04/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 04/04– (Gender and Child Development Division– Social, Legal and Governance Department– K473,108,600).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3051, Activity 023– Implementation of HIV/AIDS Work Place Policy, there is no provision for 2012. Why is this so since Implementation of HIV/AIDS Work Place Policy continues?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I do not know whether it is worth waiting for the meals on wheels to come to the rescue or whether I should simply answer. 

Laughter

The Vice-President: It is budgeted for under Activity 013.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

Let me appeal to those who are tasked with the responsibility of advising to also foresee the questions to be asked so that they are able to move fast. Do not wait for His Honour the Vice-President to ask. You are here to provide advice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3051, Activity 014– Sensitise Women and Girls on Dangers of Drug Trafficking and Abuse, there is no provision. May I know exactly where this allocation has gone because it is an important budget line?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this is the note I received earlier. The provision for sensitising women and girls on the dangers of drug trafficking and abuse will be captured under the Support to Gender Mainstreaming at the district. Key activities including sensitisation on gender-based violence, including dangers of drug trafficking. This is provided under Programme 3150, Activity 004, Support to Gender Main Streaming Activities at the district. Perhaps the questioner can check in his Yellow Book, if he can still hold it up, and see if it is correct.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Masumba (Mufunbwe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 010– Meetings– International. Why is there no provision for 2012? I also want further clarification as to whether international meetings will not be there.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this has been provided for under Activity 020.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, when I look at Programme 3051, Activity 004– Mainstreaming Gender in Social Sector Ministries, the new allocation is only K94,194,000. Why has this figure dropped when the problem is worsening?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, clearly, I would have to consult on that one. I do not think we can expect the answer to come running out of the corner at this stage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Masumba: Mr Chairperson, may we be guided here because I am not so clear about the answer that the Vice-President has given, more especially that he has just referred to Programme 002, which I cannot see. I am not so sure whether it correlates with what I am trying to put forward.

The Chairperson: Order!

I thought that the question was why there is no provision here and the Vice-President said that there is a provision elsewhere, not necessarily here.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this has been provided for under Programme 3002, Activity 020– International Meetings and Conferences– K245,657,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, surely, is the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President in order to sit comfortably and hide behind the Vice-President, instead of chasing information? I am saying so because they knew that we were going to debate the Budget for the ministry and now they cannot provide us with answers. Is he in order to leave the Vice-President suffering …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … and waiting for wheels?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member is trying to tell the people who are responsible for these Heads to come to the House prepared.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: It involves not only the Vice-President but also those who are here to advise. I think you must anticipate that questions will be raised on the Budget. Therefore, you should come prepared. I hope that next time we will come prepared.

Vote 04/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 05– (Electoral Commission– K48,802,115,126).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you, again, for giving me the opportunity to present the 2012 budget, this time, for the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Sir, the Electoral Commission of Zambia was established as an autonomous body under Article 70 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia to conduct presidential and parliamentary elections. The commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries into which Zambia is divided for purposes of elections to the National Assembly as well as to supervise the registration of voters and review the voters’ register. In addition to the constitutional functions, the commission has statutory functions that include the supervision of local government elections and the performance of any other statutory function that the National Assembly may call upon it to do.

The Electoral Commission Act No.24 of 1996 provides for the composition and operations of the commission. The Electoral Commission Act No.12 of 2006 empowers the commission to enforce the Act, make regulations providing for the registration of voters, conduct presidential and parliamentary elections and attend to election offences and penalties.

Mr Chairperson, the Mission Statement for the Electoral Commission is:

“To be an autonomous electoral management body, promoting democratic governance through delivery of a credible electoral process”.

The commission’s mission statement justifies the fundamental purpose for its existence and provides a vision for it to strive towards and a framework within which its policies will be made and programmes and activities carried out to enrich and further strengthen the electoral process, thereby contributing to democratic governance in the country. It, further, gives staff of the commission a clear sense of what their organisation is all about, thereby increasing their commitment to achieving its objectives.

Mr Chairperson, 2011 saw the commission complete the preparation of the 2011 voters’ register and successfully conduct the tripartite elections. In addition, the commission has conducted four parliamentary by-elections and over forty local government by-elections in 2011.

Mr Chairperson, the budget estimates before the House will enable the Commission to undertake nine programmes.

Mr Chairperson, I now seek the support of the House in approving the commission’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, in support of this important Vote for the Electoral Commission of Zambia, I have a few comments to make.

Mr Chairperson, we would like to make sure that, when we approve monies for certain activities, the activities should be conducted. In this case, I have in mind the Continuous Voter Registration.

Sir, every year, we have budgeted for continuous voter registration. This year, quite a bit of money was allocated, US$2 billion, because it was an election year. However, even next year, when there will no election, there should be continuous voter registration. Why is it that the Electoral Commission fails to conduct this exercise continuously? Why should they wait to do it during an election year?  It is now four years since the law was made that we should have continuous registration and budgets are made every year. I want to urge the commission to undertake this exercise because we will approve this budget.

Mr Chairperson, there is a need to upgrade the electoral regulations so that all malpractices are done away with. If we had not put in place proper regulations of elections, we could have had problems in the country. So far, Zambia has done very well. Before the elections, we had threats of war but, at the end of the elections, we were all smiling because peace prevailed. I would like, however, to urge the Electoral Commission to be above board in the conduct of elections. I do hope that they will not be influenced by politicians who believe that one needs to marry a particular group of women to win elections.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: The Electoral Commission does not advise any particular group to marry another. I think that it is a misconception for a certain group of people to think that one can only win elections if they marry a daughter of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. It is not correct.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Muntanga:  This is bordering on saying that the group must be totally annihilated and form a hybrid. It is not correct. 
 
Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: We do not need hybrids. We should live the way we are. The function of controlling elections is the responsibility of the Electoral Commission. If there are any disputes on statistics and why one should win, let us have the Central Statistical Office come in. This is what we mean when we say there is careless talk. We make budgets in this House and I think that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning agrees with me that there is money here. We do not have to talk carelessly and try to apologise later and claim that you were born in Kalomo or have lived in Kalomo. In Kalomo we have well-behaved people. We do not insult others.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want this budget of the Electoral Commission …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: … to emphasise that the electoral rules be followed and that ….

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, you guided this House earlier with regard to certain matters. When certain matters have been raised in this House and apologies rendered magnanimously, senior as well as junior hon. Members alike should learn to accept and avoid protracting acrimony in the House.

Hon. Members: Who?

Mr Kampyongo: It is not correct to continue with innuendoes.

Mr Chairperson, I envy the senior hon. Member as he is my mentor. I would like you, Sir, to guide again. Is he in order to continue making innuendoes and discussing issues that have already been attended to in the House?

The Chairperson: You have actually assisted me by debating your own point of order.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Muntanga, you may proceed. 
 
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the Electoral Commission of Zambia is in charge of elections. Whatever problems come up concerning elections should be the responsibility of the commission.

Mr Chairperson, the Patriotic Front Government intends to have ballot papers printed here in Zambia in the future. We want to minimise errors on the ballot papers. For example, sometimes, ballot papers come with wrong pictures, some names are left out and some come out in black and white while others are in such a poor colour print that you can hardly see the person in the picture. Sir, since we experienced this kind of situation with a foreign company, I would like to appeal …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, order!

The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: … to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) to correct the mistakes made by the company that printed the ballot papers outside Zambia if we are to conduct this exercise locally.

Mr Chairperson, our prayer is that no hands should influence the ECZ. It is for this reason that His Honour the Vice-President has stated, in this House, that the ECZ shall be autonomous. I agree with him on this matter, but it must be totally autonomous. Sometimes, one wonders why electoral officers always come from the Office of the President. If you check the backgrounds of some of the electoral officers, you will see that they are from the Office of the President?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We should not do things to make others believe that there are underhand methods to influence certain decisions. Perhaps, it is high time the name Zambia Intelligence Security Service was changed so that it means what it is, a Zambia Intelligence Service. Once we call it Office of the President, it is inclined to mean the incumbent President will be favoured. This is the more reason people should stop thinking that the best people to work at the ECZ are those from the Zambia Intelligence Security Service. What intelligence are they offering there?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: What investigations are they carrying out? I urge the ECZ to start preparing to be autonomous so that it does a good job.

Mr Chairperson, there are some things the ECZ has done so well in Zambia that some countries envy us. However, we should not sit back and say “because we have done well here, we keep quiet” because we need to refine our systems.

Sir, I have noticed that the ECZ had been allocated only K200 billion meant for the 2011 Tripartite Elections. I have also noticed that K6 billion, which I think is inadequate, has been allocated to by-elections. With the number of petitions running to sixty, if they are all nullified, we shall have a mini general election. Therefore, I would suggest that, using the probabilities of how many would be successful, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning begins to prepare himself to increase the allocation because the by-elections will be there. Some of the candidates do not want to come to this House after they have won the Parliamentary elections, and when they are offered positions of ambassador, they opt to resign.

Hon. Opposition Member: Corruption!

Mr Muntanga: I do not want to call it corruption, but it is, perhaps, gratification.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Corruption!

Mr Muntanga: A person is elected today and, before he or she even touches Parliament Buildings, he or she resigns.

Mr Livune: He was corrupted!

Mr Muntanga: Hon. Minister, you have a problem. Consider giving more money to this Vote. You can remove K30 billion from the K1 trillion that is hanging under rural investment to avoid bringing too many supplementary estimates to this House, unless you are sure that of all the petitions, only two will be successful. Then, I will not mind. You can remain with this figure, but it is better to prepare for the by-elections.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I wish to talk about is that, when we spend money to purchase vehicles for the ECZ, it is important that some of the vehicles are used for quite a long time. However, we sent these vehicles to the districts and have forgotten to recall them. In some cases, a number of districts find pleasure in misusing them. We cannot continuously buy new vehicles because Land Cruisers are strong vehicles that can be used for a long time. I know that, as long as we do not take stock of the new vehicles, we have a problem.

With these few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. I feel that the Vote for the ECZ should not simply pass through this House, but that we must pass it. The ECZ is a very important body and I want to raise, maybe, three or so issues.

The first issue is the structural arrangement at the ECZ. The Chairperson of the ECZ is on full-time employment and there is also the Director of Elections, who is the Chief Executive Officer. This brings a conflict in the day-to-day management of that institution. It has resulted in a number of audit queries because it becomes difficult to know who is accountable for what. If you check the past reports of the Auditor-General, you will discover that the Director of Elections, who is answerable for the finances of the commission, has difficulties explaining some of the mistakes of the Chairperson, who is actually operating on a full-time basis. I think that there is a generally held view that the commissioners must be on part-time and the professionals or Executive should be left to run the Commission so that there is no undue influence on a daily basis from the commissioners. Also, it would be cheaper to run the commission because it must continue working throughout the five years. The commission does not only work when there are elections. Therefore, we must continue to allocate a substantial amount to it because we need it to begin to educate Zambians about elections and prevent the electoral malpractices that are very costly to individuals and the country.

Sir, the many petitions, in the past, were due to a lack of education among the electorate on what is and what is not a corrupt practice. For this reason, the ECZ must continue to educate the people so that elections are clean and credible and petitions are prevented.

Mr Chairperson, on the matter of issuing out materials during elections, I think the ECZ should advise us how we can streamline the elections. For example, giving money is corruption, but giving a chitenge is not corruption, yet a chitenge has monetary value. With the high poverty levels in this country, you can literally win by giving a lot of chitenges.

Mr Ngonga: … and bicycles!

Mr Hamududu: Bicycles are a form of transport.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the ECZ must advise us on what items sway people’s opinion. People must vote on account of the manifestos the parties are giving to them, not items like T-shirts and chitenge materials. I have observed that, if you do not have much of these items, you can lose an election even when you offer the best policies to the electorate. Therefore, the ECZ must begin to advise the Government. Perhaps, we can ban chitenges and T-shirts and begin to address the people so that they can choose us based on what we want to do for them. With the high poverty levels in this country, we must look at some of these items that sometimes sway the opinion of the voters. The ECZ must do a study and give us feedback on the impact of some of these items because the elections must not only be for the rich, but for everyone.

Hon. Opposition Member: Don’t Kubeba!

Mr Hamududu: We have just come from Chongwe and you know that the ‘Don’t Kubeba’ strategy does not work.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, we tried to use it, but it boomeranged on us.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: It is corruption even.

Sir, some of the structures are in conflict with management committees in the district, but we need the districts to be effective. The teaching must be there throughout the five years so that we to stop some of the malpractices that lead to petitions and, consequently, by-elections.

Sir, I would like to end on the subject of by-elections. By-elections are a drain on the resources of this country and we are doing a disservice to our people whenever we hold them. The money spent on one by-election can be used to build a secondary school. I, therefore, think that the ECZ must try, by all means, to see how some of the mistakes that cause by-elections can be prevented. I also suggest that an elected leader who resigns must be made to pay for the by-election because the high cost of by-elections deprives the poor of money for their socio-economic development. Therefore, the ECZ should serve as an advisory board to us, politicians, because they have a lot of experience institutional memory relating to handling of elections while we, the politicians, come and go. The commission should advise us on how we can run elections properly and, eventually, prevent these costly by-elections. I think that should be the way forward.

Sir, other countries have found a formula to avoid wastage of money at the personal and national levels. I think that getting into office should not be more important than rendering a service to our poor people. The ECZ should, therefore, continue to explore ways and best experiences elsewhere and see how we can save money for the poor. The people are suffering, therefore, we cannot continue with these extravagant by-elections.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor and support the estimates of expenditure for the ECZ. In so doing, I want to assure the hon. Members in this House and the general public that the Patriotic Front (PF) stands to make sure that the ECZ performs its duty as per law established. We are not going to interfere …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to raise this point of order. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is a member of the Executive and this Budget has been debated extensively in Cabinet and is now being forwarded to us. Is he, therefore, in order to tell us that he supports the estimates of expenditure as though he has any other choice?

Laughter

The Chairperson: I am sure that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will take that point of order into account as he debates.

He may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I appeal to hon. Members to support this Vote. In so doing, I want to assure the House that the PF stands to make sure that the ECZ is given the autonomy that it deserves. We are not going to interfere in the operations of the ECZ. Sir, I now want to …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Excuse me, please.

Sir, in debating this Vote, I want to say that Zambia has achieved a lot in as far as free and fair and, indeed, clean and violence-free elections are concerned. However, I am getting worried by the emerging pattern of voting in this country. Dr Kenneth Kaunda united the seventy-three tribes in Zambia but, at the rate we are going, now, in our elections, we need the ECZ to sensitise the people not to vote for people on the basis of the area they come from but on merit. We have seen that, in some provinces, the voting is beginning to be based on where the president of a particular party comes from …

The Chairperson: Order! Order, hon. Minister!

I think that we are now going back to the general policy debate. Can you, please, veer off that path and comment on the matter at hand.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, that is the only point that I wanted to raise. Now that you have guided otherwise, I think I will end there.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mwatina.

The Chairperson: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the two hon. Members of the Opposition who have contributed to the debate on this Vote. I take their debate as my own, except for Hon. Hamududu’s puzzlement at the failure by the ‘Don’t kubeba’ slogan to work in Chongwe. Don’t kubeba is a slogan for a very popular party …

The Chairperson: Order, His Honour, please!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I urge the House to overwhelmingly support this part of the Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

____________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

____________

The House adjourned at 1805 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 1st December, 2011.