DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 1st December, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_____________

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following Members took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Oliver Chinyama Mulomba

Abel Sichula

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_________

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

CHIEFDOMS

42. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs:

(a) how many chiefs were recognised by the Government between January, 2010 and September, 2011; and
  
(b) how many chiefdoms had succession disputes as of October, 2011.

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that there are twenty-two chiefs who were recognised between January, 2010 and September, 2011. There are currently twelve succession disputes as of October, 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, may I know why the previous regime lamentably failed to solve the succession dispute in Chief Mbulu’s Chiefdom in Samfya District which has been going on for over eight years now.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, all disputes need some form of conflict resolution. If there is no political will to prevail over the succession disputes in order to bring about peace and reconciliation, we should not expect any good results.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs confirm that in actual fact succession disputes arise from two or more families aspiring for the throne in the chiefdoms and, therefore, has nothing to do with political will.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, it is true that usually the differences emanate from family lineages. However, if the Government does not help to sort out the succession disputes then the conflicts will continue.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to resolve the remaining succession disputes.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, the Government has adopted two strategies. The first one is to inform the chiefs that they should, if possible, as soon as possible, sit down with their advisors and come up with family trees that can be authentic and can be used when determining the chieftainship. Secondly, we are using the traditional leadership to help in recognising the rightful heirs to the respective chiefdoms. Succession disputes are supposed to be resolved through the traditional leadership. The Government should merely be told who has been chosen or is being recommended. It is not the Government’s duty to choose chiefs for the people. That is the way of doing things which we shall maintain.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, with the highly pronounced political will in place, can the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs tell us when the existing twelve disputes will be resolved. What is the time frame?

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, some of these disputes have been ongoing for the past twenty or twelve years. It is really discouraging to know that this state of affairs has been left unattended to for so long a time and yet, we had other avenues that we could have used to resolve these conflicts. The system which we want to employ also involves the use the House of Chiefs as a mediator in some of these conflicts. We hope this way, we will be able to resolve some …

Hon. MMD Member interjected.

Mrs Wina: Maybe, you did not use it properly.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mrs Wina: This time around we are going to use the House of Chiefs properly.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, I cannot give the timeframe in which these conflicts will be resolved, but am hoping that most of them will be resolved amicably.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister indicate the Patriotic Front (PF) Government policy on the recognition of chiefdoms which were either merged or declared defunct by the colonial Government.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, most of our chiefdoms existed in Zambia even before the colonialists came. We will look into matters involving all the chiefdoms that have not been recognised. The question which has been asked by Hon. Namugala is new. It needs more research.
I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Moonde (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, I did not indicate.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, arising from the answers that have been given by the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, may I know as to when the Government will recognise the already-recognised Paramount Chief of the Tongas, Chief Monze.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, that issue has not been brought to my office by the chiefs of the Southern Province. When that happens, we will come up with a way of sorting out the situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Government is using two ways to sort out succession disputes, that is the authentic family tree method and advice from the traditional leadership. Out of the twelve succession disputes, two of them are from Namwala Constituency. What is she saying about those which are before the courts of law? Are they part of the twelve disputes which are going to be sorted out using traditional systems?

Mr Speaker: A matter before a court of law can only be decided by a court of law.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sililo (Mulobezi): Mr Speaker, may I know how far the dispute between Chief Momba and Senior Chief Inyambo has gone.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, that is a new question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, I can only be able to answer it when I have collected all the necessary data.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister indicate to this House whether the Government has intentions of extending the perks given to headmen.

Laughter

Mr M. H. Malama: That is irrelevant.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, that is a new question. However, I still wish to state that the Government has no plans to do that.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear1

Mr Speaker: Order!
__________

MOTION

WAYS AND MEANS

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply. I am a bearer of five messages from His Excellency the President recommending that these Motions, which I now lay on the Table, be proceeded with in this House.

Mr Chikwanda laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, as a result of the Budget which I presented to this House on 11th November, 2011, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures which I will outline in the Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

__________

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

INCOME TAX

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

(a) increase threshold of exempt income for individuals from K12 million per annum to K24 million per annum;

(b) treat hedging as a separate business activity for income tax purposes;

(c) introduce provisions to deem commission paid to non resident persons to have a source within the Republic and thereby taxable as the withholding tax raised for 15 per cent;

(d) to revise the corporate tax rates for banks to 35 per cent per annum;

(e) to reduce the corporate tax on farming income to 10 per cent from 15 per cent; and

(f) to provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to effect changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 11th November, 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. In supporting this Bill, I want to make it very clear, once again, to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning concerning the threshold exempt that while it is only good for …

The Chairperson: Order!

We are not yet looking at the Bill in detail. In line with the procedures of this House, the Bill will be discussed later on. Maybe, I should have indicated, in the beginning, that this is a procedural Motion. We will come to the debate when we consider the actual Bill in detail.

With that advice, let me call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to wind up.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I have nothing to add to what I have said.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act so as:

(a) to raise the rate of mineral royalty payable on base metals, industrial minerals, energy minerals, precious metals and gemstones; and

(b) to provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act so as to effect changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 11th November, 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Zambia Development Agency Act so as:

(a) revise the circumstances under which additional incentives may be granted for purposes of promoting major investments; and

(b) provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Zambia Development Agency Act so as to effect the changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 11th November, 2011.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

VALUE ADDED TAX

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to revise the definition of the accounting year and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to effect changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 11th November, 2011.

Mr Chairperson, once again, I thank my hon. Colleagues for their unwavering support.

Sir, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to:

(a) remove duty on helicopters and microlights;

(b) introduce export duty on unprocessed and semi processed minerals;

(c) revise the rates of customs and excise duty payable on certain goods;

(d) revise the First Schedule in order to align the description to the 2012 Harmonised Coding and Description System of the World Customs Organisation;

(e) revise the Second Schedule in order to reduce the excise duty rates for wines and spirits;

(f) revise the Sixth Schedule so as to base the valuation of undenatured ethyl alcohol on sales value;

(g) revise the Ninth Schedule in order to extend duty to all minerals and reduce the amount of duty payable on minerals;

(h) provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to effect changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 11th November, 2011.

Mr Chairperson, again, I am indebted to my hon. Colleagues for their support.

Sir, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

____________{mospagebreak}

 

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Resolutions reported.

Reports adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

_________

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2011

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2011.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday 16th December, 2011. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are at liberty to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2011

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, 2011.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday 16th December, 2011. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are at liberty to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2011

Mr Chikwanda:  Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled The Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2011.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday 16th December, 2011. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are at liberty to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2011

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2011.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 16th December, 2011. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2011

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2011.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 16th December, 2011. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

(Debate resumed)

VOTE 45 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – K157,229,139,764).

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to discuss the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry for the year 2012 which stand at K157,229,139,764 compared to this year’s approved Budget Expenditure of K133,460,366,536. This reflects an increment of 17.8 per cent.

Sir, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health is an important vehicle to facilitate the implementation of social protection programmes in order to improve the livelihood of the poor and marginalised in our society.

Mr Chairperson, the Government, through my ministry, is implementing a number of programmes aimed at improving the wellbeing of the poor and the marginalised in our society. Let me highlight a few of the programmes which my ministry is currently implementing.

Sir, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme aims at delivering social assistance in the form of cash to extremely poor and incapacitated households that cannot be reached by labour-based programmes. These households need regular and continuous assistance.

Mr Chairperson, in 2011, the ministry successfully paid out cash transfers to newly- introduced districts, namely Kalabo, Kaputa and Shang’ombo. This brought the number of beneficiaries to 28,634 in eight implementing districts, namely Kalomo, Chipata, Kazungula, Petauke, Monze, Kalabo, Kaputa and Shang’ombo. In 2012, the Government and its co-operating partners have allocated K55,500,000,000 compared to K42,700,000,000 in 2011 for the programme. This clearly demonstrates that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is determined to improve the lives of the vulnerable people in our society. It is also worth mentioning that this programme is being scaled up to other districts in a phased approach based on the high poverty levels, under-five mortality and malnutrition rates. In 2012, the scheme will be rolled out to three additional districts, namely Serenje, Luwingu and Zambezi. 

Mr Chairperson, the the Food Security Pack (FSP) Programme aims at empowering the vulnerable, but viable farming households with agricultural inputs in order for them to be self-sustaining through improved productivity and household food security. In 2012, the  ministry has increased the allocation for this programme from K15 billion to K25 billion. The increment is due to the overwhelming demand for the programme by the targeted group.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme (PWAS), the ministry has increased the amount allocated to it from K8 billion in 2011 to K9.4 billion in the 2012 Budget. This is an increment of 18.8 per cent. It is due to the high demand for social welfare services by the vulnerable persons.

Mr Chairperson, the PF Government, in its effort to empower women clubs and associations, has allocated K16.7 billion to the Women’s Development Programme. This amount is aimed at increasing the number of beneficiaries.

Sir, I would also like to take this opportunity to inform the House that in 2012,  my ministry will commence the operationalisation of the Non-Government Organisation Act, No. 16 of 2009. To begin with, the Government has allocated K1.7 billion for the registration of NGOs and to facilitate the formulation of a code of conduct for NGOs in order to promote self-regulation.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to inform the House that a directorate responsible for mother and child health is being created under the ministry. In this regard, discussions on how this new department will operate are currently taking place between officials from the Ministry of Health, Cabinet Office and my ministry. I therefore, beg this august House to support my ministry’s Budget for 2012.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to also  contribute to the policy debate on the budget for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. First of all, I would like to commend my friend, the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, Dr. Katema, for being one of the good hon. Ministers in the PF Government.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Sir, in fact, he is decent and better than some these hon. Ministers.

Laughter

The Chairperson: No, Hon. Ntundu. We have to move fast. We have a lot of work on our hands.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, let me congratulate my colleague who has just come into this House, the hon. Member for Magoye. He has increased our number. I congratulate him for having made it to Parliament.

Mr Speaker, I would like to put it on record that this ministry…

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: You have already congratulated yours.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Ignore the hecklers. They just want to distract you.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, having been in this House for ten years now, I would like to make it known to this House that the Auditor-General’s previous reports indicate that there is less abuse of resources in this ministry. Therefore, this ministry needed to be allocated with more resources than what has been allocated because of its previous good record. We received hammer mills to give to the needy in society through this ministry. We have also received treadle pumps, sausage- making machines, sewing machines and ox-carts through the minstry. The people have benefited a lot from the work of this ministry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, now that we have a very good hon. Minister, Dr Katema, I have no doubt that this ministry will achieve its goals. If I had my way, I was going to allocate most of the resources of this country to this ministry because we have seen its benefits. I hope that the PF Government will look into what I am talking about seriously. Hon. Kambwili, when you were on the left side, you said that the Government was not allocating enough resources to this ministry. Now that you are there (right), I am informing you that we need more money in this ministry.

The Chairperson: Order! I think in order not to invite points of order, address the Chair.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, through you, I recall very well that when Hon. Kambwili was on this side (left),…

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: … he used to tell the MMD Government to give this ministry more resources because we were able to see its direct benefits. I was saying that if I had a way, I would have made sure that the money that is allocated to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) was allocated to this ministry because when it goes to the CEEC, it lands into wrong pockets and wrong hands. Therefore, I urge all my colleagues in this House to support the budget for this ministry. I also would like to tell the PF Government that I am happy that it has not changed the budget which the MMD left in place. This budget is similar to the one that the MMD had prepared. Therefore, I commend you for that. My new friend, Hon. Dr Katema, I would like to urge you to stop smoking and concentrate ...

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Ntundu, if you have exhausted your debate, say so.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I just thought of reminding my very good friend …

The Chairperson: No, there is nothing like that in this House. Can you come to the main topic on the Floor. I am not interested in your friendships.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I hope my point that we should allocate more funds to this ministry has been taken. I would also like to thank the technocrats in this ministry for having worked very hard to ensure that the money that is given to this ministry finds its way to the communities.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, this is a key ministry which has direct impact on many groups such as the disabled, the aged and the women. When I look at the Budget, I notice that (inaudible)

Ms Kalima looked away from the microphone, but continued talking.

Hon. Members: Microphone!

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, can you, please, use your microphone.

Ms Kalima: Sorry.

Mr Chairperson, I notice that Activity …

Hon. MMD Member: We have not yet started with the individual heads.

Ms Kalima: We have not yet started?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! You are distracting her. Leave her to debate.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I was about to say that this ministry is key with regards to creating an impact on the lives of women, the aged, and the blind. It is a ministry that has direct impact on our constituencies. My big sister, Hon. Kapata, is directly involved and we expect the best from her.

Mr Chairperson, I thought that we had already started looking at the individual items. However, I have just been informed that we are not yet at that stage. Therefore, I shall reserve my comments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Ndekupa, iwe mwaice!

Laughter

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Chairperson, allow me to congratulate the new hon. Members of Parliament, Hon. Mulomba of the United Party for National Development (UPND). To him I say well done and welcome.  

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: To the PF Member, my brother, Hon. Abel Sichula, I say, mwakwanda mulumendo.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: That is means welcome in Namwanga.

Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. Some people are still confused and are not sure of what it is called.

Mr Chairperson, with the poverty levels in the country now above 60 per cent, this is a very important ministry targeting the vulnerable children, the aged as well as vulnerable, but viable citizens. In supporting the Vote, I note that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has increased the allocation from K125 billion to K157 billion. Well done, hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, this is very good although the functions of the ministry have also increased. As I have already indicated, I note that the title of the ministry does not include social welfare. We are very interested in seeing how the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health will work together to deal with maternal and child health.

Mr Chairperson, I note that the allocation for the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme has also increased from K8 billion to K9.4 billion. This allocation is normally used in the district to support school-going children. The allocation, hon. Minister, is rather inadequate, considering that more and more of our children are in need of education support.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to urge the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health to ensure harmonisation of this Vote with the Government Bursary Scheme in the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training so that the children who are genuinely vulnerable access Government support. We have noticed that children coming from well-to-do families are the ones that access the Government bursaries in the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training. This should be brought to a stop.

Mr Chairperson, on the Social Cash Transfer Programme, the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) component has increased from K7.8 billion to K11.5 billion. This is good. I hear from the hon. Minister that the intention is to also roll out the programme. If there is going to be a roll out to three districts, then there is a need for the Government component to increase further. The rolling out of the programme must be based on the vulnerability assessment and not political expedience.

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that there is no allocation for the rehabilitation and reintegration of children that live on the streets, normally referred to as street children. In the 2011 Budget, there was an allocation of K2.4 billion for that exercise.  In next year’s Budget, I do not see any allocation for this very important activity. I wonder what the intention of the Government with regard to the plight of the children that live on the streets.

Mr Chairperson, I challenge the hon. Minister to try his best to ensure that children are reintegrated into society from the streets. It can be done. We did it before. We removed nearly 2,000 children from the streets.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: We rehabilitated them and put them in homes and schools. Sadly, we note that the children are back on the streets. Children do not belong on the street, but in the comfort of homes.

Hon. PF Member: That is where you left them.

Hon. MMD Member: No, they were not there.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, a responsible Government takes responsibility for the problems that they find.

Mr Chairperson, there is a saying in Bemba which I will later translate that upyanango apyana namabala. Do not just be proud to take over the comforts of the Government, but also take over the challenges.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Is that the translation?

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the translation is that if one inherits something, one does not only take over the good, but the bad as well.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to commend the Government for increasing the allocation for the Food Security Pack Programme from K15 billion to K25 billion. I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health to ensure that this programme is properly implemented, especially, in outlying areas. When we were in the Government, we started taking over this activity which was being implemented by non-governmental organizations (NGOs). Hon. Minister, pay particular attention to this very important activity.

Mr Chairperson, I note that there is now a Department of Registrar for Non-Governmental Organisations. The allocation of only K1.7 billion is inadequate. This department is very important. On several occasions, the citizens of this country have complained that many NGOs are not serving the purpose for which they were created. Many of the NGOs are there only to ensure the comfort of their so-called executive directors and mostly, at the expense of the many vulnerable people that we have.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: We support this department. The hon. Minister must work very hard to ensure that proper oversight of these NGOs and their activities is carried out. They must not use the numbers of poor people to enrich themselves.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, with these remarks, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!{mospagebreak}

Hon. Mucheleka before you proceed, I just want to state that I know that all of you want to debate. However, hon. Members must understand that they may not all be able to do so. If they have not had the chance to debate on this head, we will notice them in the next head.

You may continue. 

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute on the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health.

Sir, indeed, I agree with Hon. Ntundu, when he says that this is a very important ministry, especially, because it touches every corner of this country. It is also important because it is charged with the responsibility of mainstreaming and crosscutting issues in development, such as issues of disability, gender and HIV/AIDS.

Mr Chairperson, I am also glad that the hon. Minister has mentioned some of the important programmes that are being implemented by his ministry, to which I have seen an increase in the budgetary allocations.

Sir, programmes like the Social Cash Transfer are helping vulnerable households. I am glad that the district I come from, Luwingu, has also been covered under this scheme. I am aware that the hon. Minister was in Luwingu to launch the programme and the people of Lubansenshi Constituency are very grateful. As I said in my maiden speech, Luwingu is one of the poorest districts in the Northern Province. We have other programmes, such as the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme as well as the Women’s Development Programme, which are also important.

Sir, I, however, have a serious concern with regard to the budgetary allocation under the Office for the Registrar for Non-Governmental Organisations. I have been taken aback, especially that when you read the PF Manifesto’s position on the party’s relationship with the NGOs, it talks about opening open dialogue platforms with them in order to iron out the challenges that exist in the Non-governmental Organisation Act, 2009.

Sir, the Act, in its present form, is actually a means of imposing sanctions on CSOs that are perceived to be anti-Government. If you look at the Act, you will notice that it talks about registration and deregistration. It does not, in any way, address issues regarding the regulation of the functions of NGOs. If anything, it is true that NGOs want to be regulated by the 2010 Istanbul Principles which talk about issues of good governance, transparency and accountability. However, what happens is that those NGOs during the elections which are perceived to be against the Government are treated badly. The Act was meant to fix them.

Sir, I would have thought that the new party now in power, which is the PF Government, would have clearly distanced itself from the Act.

Mr Muntanga: How can they do that?

Mr Mucheleka: Instead, I expected the new Government to begin to dialogue with NGOs in order to find ways of how it can work with them.

Mr Chairperson, you may agree with me that, in this country, NGOs have played a very significant role in complementing the Government’s efforts with regard to service delivery, especially, in sectors like education, health and agriculture. However, there has always been a challenge when it comes to CSOs that are concerned with issues of good governance. They are the ones that are perceived to be anti-Government, yet there is none of them in this country that is, indeed, anti-Government. These organisations are supposed to be regarded as partners in development.

Sir, I am aware that the Zambian Government is a signatory to the Accra Agenda for Action 2008, in which it committed itself to creating an enabling environment for NGOs to contribute to the development of this country. However, the current legislation that the PF intends to operationalise will not, in any way, create such an environment. If anything, it will create a very hostile environment for NGOs. This is our opportunity to correct some of those mistakes that were made by the previous Government.

Sir, I would like to humbly request the PF Government …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

 The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. However, the hon. Member should know that it is not always that a point of order is granted. You may raise your point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member debating in order to debate in the manner he is doing just because he has interests in a certain NGO. Is he in order? Let him declare interest.

The Chairperson: We are here to debate a number of issues that are of concern to the people. I think that he is in order.

Can you continue, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your protection.

Sir, I would like to make a very humble appeal to the PF Government to open its doors and dialogue with the civil society organisations (CSOs) on how the Government can create an enabling environment for these organisations to do their work. If that does not happen, then I am afraid that, sooner than later, the PF will be opening up another front on which it will be fighting the CSOs.

Mr Speaker, the PF Government made a commitment that it was going to work progressively with NGOs. I am aware that the NGOs have written to the Government to request it to come clean by it stating its position on the Act. I am also aware that there has been no response from the Government. The NGOs are still waiting for the response.

The Chairperson: Order!

I know I protected you, but that does not mean that you should dwell too much on an issue related to the work of NGOs. You have to address other issues concerning the ministry which we are looking at.

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, K1.7 billion has been allocated in the 2012 Budget for the purpose of operationalising the Act as a follow up to the K700 million which was put aside to construct the Office for the Registrar for Non-Governmental Organisations. My appeal is that, if it is possible, the function of registering the NGOs should be left where it is, the Registrar of Societies, under the Ministry of Home Affairs. Changes should only be effected when we are faced with challenges. Trying to stifle the operations of the NGOs is something that would create a lot of …

Mr Chairperson: Order!

I just advised you to avoid dwelling too much on issues to do with NGOs. Come back to the subject which is on the Floor of the House.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

First of all, I must clearly state that I do not have any particular interest in any particular NGO. I am an hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi Constituency and, therefore, my interest is to represent my constituents.

Sir, I would have liked to see a substantially larger amount allocated to the ministry because this is one ministry that, indeed, as I said earlier, touches almost every household, especially in rural areas. It is one ministry that has made an impact in improving the livelihoods of the people, especially those in rural areas, women, the disabled and those living with HIV/AIDS.

Mr Chairperson, most ministries have, probably, not put aside funds for the mainstreaming of cross-cutting issues in the development of this country, such as disability. These cross-cutting issues should not be left to this ministry alone. There is a need to ensure that sufficient funds are allocated in every ministry for cross-cutting issues. If possible, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health should assist other ministries in mainstreaming issues of HIV/AIDS and disability, particularly, working in partnership with the Gender and Child Development Division to see how best this can be done.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Ngonga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, before I contribute to the debate currently on the Floor, allow me to welcome and congratulate my fellow hon. Members of Parliament who have just been elected. Welcome my brothers and sister. I will be very brief in contributing to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. I just want to comment on the wonderful programmes that this ministry will implement next year and the funds allocated to them

Mr Chairperson, experience has shown us that, because this ministry is in touch with the people in our constituencies, it is prone to being abused, especially, by those with political inclinations even in our communities like we saw under the previous Government. Instead of this money being treated as Government money, it was used along partisan lines. Most of the people who benefited were, basically, those with political party affiliations or cadres.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngonga:  I am also very sure that our new Government will make a difference. It will act above board so that the communities we come from are able to benefit. In Kaputa, yes, we had funds that came under the Social Cash Transfer Scheme and the Women Empowerment Fund which were treated as Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) programmes. I hope that, as the PF, we will not take that route.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I am a bearer of lamentations from the civil society pertaining to the implementation of the Registrar of Societies’ functions pursuant to the Act that was passed in 2009 in this House. The PF Government has somersaulted politically on this issue. We are all aware that there was a vote that was conducted on the Floor of this House and the PF hon. Members were against that particular Bill and assured Zambians that it would never implement it if they came into power. The CSOs that rallied behind the PF are wailing out there. They are gnashing their teeth and saying that they have been betrayed.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I have no doubt in my mind that His Honour the Vice-President, who mobilised PF hon. Members of Parliament to vote against that Act, will ensure that it is not implemented. We should fulfil all the promises that we make publicly. Let us not renege on our promises.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The NGOs are waiting for a good result. They want to reap where they were sowing. They supported the PF. Let them not be disappointed.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the nomenclature of this particular ministry is misleading. I have not seen any budget line for the health of children and mothers. Those votes are under the Ministry of Health. It is the Ministry of Health that is going to ensure that the health of our mothers and children is protected. In this particular budget, there is nothing.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will make an amendment and provide an allocation under this ministry for the health of our mothers and children, who are expectant. When they heard that a ministry for mothers’ health had been established, there were demonstrations, dancing, wining and dining in the streets …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … because women thought that, now, their health will be taken care of. However, they are very disappointed, especially those in Mandevu with what has happened. They were very sure that all their concerns would be taken care of.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: However, by this afternoon, the wailings in Mandevu were heard in Kabwata. I hope that those who are in the Government heard them.  .

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I have noted that the majority of Zambians are below the internationally accepted standards of living. It, therefore, entails that this ministry is supposed to provide a welfare scheme for most of our people in this country. Unfortunately, we have only targeted a few districts in Zambia where we are providing the so-called Social Cash Transfer Scheme. Even in those districts where this scheme has been operationalised, less than 1 per cent of the population is eligible to receive the assistance.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that a number of our people live in squalid conditions in urban areas. They are not able to sustain their livelihood, yet they are not being taken care of. If you go to Mazyopa and Mahopo, or Misisi, which is in Lusaka, you will find that most of the people in those areas, if you did not know, if they have to eat meat, they have to go to the abattoir, get skins of cows which they clean and then cook. All this is because of the high poverty levels. I was under the impression that the people of Lusaka and other urban areas who have been deprived of many things in the past will be given more money in their pockets through this Budget.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I have no doubt in mind that if Hon. Lubinda was this side, he would have attacked this Budget, …

Mr Muntanga: It is true.

Mr Mwiimbu: … but because of collective responsibility he is not going to say anything.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Member: The people of Kabwata have lost out.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek your ruling on this matter. Is the hon. Colleague currently on the Floor in order to drag me in his debate without declaring the fact that he is missing my ability to articulate issues in such a way that I was able to convince those who were in the previous Government and that he would like me to teach him how to debate? Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Well, that is why the Chair guides you to address the Chair. I listened very carefully. He talked about Hon. Lubinda while addressing the Chair. If he had called upon you without addressing the Chair, then I would have been sympathetic. However, in view of the fact that he was addressing the Chair, I think he can continue with his debate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. I note that Hon. Lubinda was actually agreeing with me that he is missing this side where he was free to speak on behalf of the people of Kabwata.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health to ensure that he investigates how the distribution of resources to women’s clubs took place in the MMD Government’s last year in power.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am aware that through the then Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, a number of constituencies received hammer mills. I hope that the PF will not digress from that good gesture on the part of the MMD. I also know that, actually, there was also some abuse that had taken place during the distribution of the hammer mills. The PF Government should not allow such abuse to take place.  

Mr Chairperson, the community centres in various localities of Zambia should be used to empower women with skills. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to ensure that these community centres are rehabilitated and well funded so that our mothers, especially in areas like Mahopo, are taught a number of beneficial skills. The people of Mahopo have been crying for resettlement and assistance through the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. I hope that the ministry will find money to help people from flooded areas like Misisi and parts of Kamwala who want to settle elsewhere.

With those few remarks, I wish to thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES 
 in the Chair]

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, allow me to thank the hon. Members who contributed to the debate regarding the allocation to my ministry. I would like to thank hon. Ntundu for his accolades and to assure him that there is a lot of commitment by the Government to increase the social cash transfer allocation. This can be manifested by the increase in terms of the Government funded component for the social cash transfer initiative over the years. The Government started by contributing only half a billion at the inception of this social cash transfer initiative, then it went up to K1 billion then to K3 billion. Then it went on to K7 billion and now is at K11.5 billion. The Government will gradually increase its counterpart funding until it totally takes over the programme.

Mr Chairperson, I thank Hon. Namugala for her contribution. She raised a lot of important issues. I want to assure her that the smooth harmonisation of certain programmes from the Ministry of Health and Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health which have been combined is being done by a team of experts. The monies for such programmes will only be released after the harmonisation process is over. The social cash transfer initiative will be rolled out to a number of districts in phases. Ultimately, the vision is that all the districts should be covered.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu said that there are still a lot of poor people in the urban and peri-urban, whom he has not seen on the list of people benefiting from social cash transfer initiative whom he thinks should be beneficiaries. I want to tell him that there are criteria which we use to choose districts and beneficiaries. 

Amongst the criteria which we use, is the Central Statistics Office (CSO) data of poverty levels and the child mortality rate. For instance, Kaputa has a very high child mortality rate. Many of the districts are using the child grant component of the social cash transfer initiative to fight child mortality. My Government’s vision is to see all the districts get on the social cash transfer initiative.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to state that it is not only through the social cash transfer initiative that the vulnerable and the poor are being reached. My ministry has got other schemes like the empowerment scheme, peri-urban self help projects and many others. I believe that a number of constituencies including urban ones benefit from those programmes.

The disabled are also reached using an agency which is under my ministry called the Zambia Agency for Persons Living with Disability (ZAPD).

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the fears by Hon. Namugala that there is no allocation for street children. These children have been budgeted for in the vote under the Department of Child Development in the Gender and Child Development Division.

Other hon. Members also claimed that there is a lack of transparency in the identification of children who should be put on bursaries through our colleagues in the Ministry of Education, Science and Vocational Training.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has put in place credible structures which are responsible for the identification of children and young persons who are supposed to get bursaries. In places where the social cash transfers initiative is, there are grassroot organs called community welfare assistance committees which help to identify those who should be assisted. It is us, politicians who create problems when we start meddling in the work of these technocrats and the grassroots structures. We want to use developmental tools for political purposes. The politicians should let the technocrats do their work. It is not me who is supposed to line up and start dishing out money to the people.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: As an hon. Minister, I do not know who is vulnerable in Kaputa or Shang’ombo. Not even my directors at national level and district social welfare officers. It is these committees that I have highlighted here in collaboration with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs through the headmen who should work with the technocrats to identify who should be assisted

Mr Chairperson, I think Hon. Mucheleka also raised very pertinent issues here regarding the K1 billion plus for the operationalisation of a certain Act. Most of the hon. Members here thought that this money will be used for the registration of the NGOs. This money is meant for a number of programmes which include our meetings with the NGOs. We are currently dialoguing with the NGOs and have constituted a committee of representatives from the NGOs, my ministry and other relevant ministries who are looking at the concerns regarding an Act which seeks to regulate their operations, which were raised by the NGOs who, this Government knows are very important partners in development. That is the money which was put and mentioned as operationalisation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Actually, we can only bring the Act to the House with amendments after widely consulting the NGOs.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, over and above, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who supported this Act, both those who voiced out their support and those who supported it quietly.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 45/01 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – K11,093,033,923.)

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Chairman, I would like to seek clarification on page 567, Programme 5040, Activity 002 – Social Safety Net – K-. This vote had a budget of K1,083,794,017, but this year there is absolutely nothing. What is the explanation for this?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, there has been realignment of the Budget, in general, by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. What has been done is that most of these activities were banded up together under administration, but they have now been taken to the appropriate heads under social welfare support.

Thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 01, Programme 5000, Activity 004 – Wages – K116, 475,504. There is a reduction of about 14 per cent from the provision for this year to that of next year. Additionally, on the same programme, Activity 003 – Salaries Div III ─ K154, 414,412, there is also a reduction from K266, 419,992 million to K116, 475,504 million. What are the reasons for the two reductions?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, this has been due to realignment of the ministries. Some members of staff have been moved to other ministries.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005 – Grants to Institutions – Operational (PRP), Activity 066 – Micro Bankers Trust, Activity 079 – National Arts Council, Activity 092 – National Training Centre for the Disabled, Activity 093 – National Trust Fund for the Disabled, Activity 094 – National Vocational Rehabilitation Centre, Activity 105 – Peri-Urban  Self Help (PUSH), Activity 107 – Programme Management Unit (Food), Activity 133 – Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities, Activity 138 – Zambia National Library and Cultural Centre for the Blind, Activity 142 – Kitwe community college and Activity 143 – Monze community college. I have noticed that there are no grants to these institutions. How will they operate?

Dr Katema:  Mr Chairperson, this programme has been moved to the Department of Social Welfare, under Programme 5005, Grants to Institutions Operational – (PRP).

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 046 – Service to the Office of the Director – K170, 779,996. I notice that there was no provision last year as opposed to this year. What is this service and why was it not available last year?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, these funds are required to meet the cost of office expenses. This is a new activity in conformity with the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) standard codes.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 003 – HIV/AIDS Awareness, Prevention, treatment, care and Support – K660,300,000. I notice that K660 million was budgeted last year. There has just been a slight increase of K300,000. The population is growing at 2.8 per cent. We have more youths graduating into adulthood and it is the most active group. Awareness is key and HIV/AIDS is a killer disease. Why the slight increment?

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kapata): Mr Chairperson, the funds are required for co-ordinating and supporting the work place HIV/AIDS policy programmes, disseminating information on HIV/AIDS prevention and care for the members of staff infected or affected by HIV/AIDS. The funds are also required to provide food supplements to employees infected or affected by HIV/AIDS. The increase is due to the anticipated high cost of food supplements.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, on the same Programme 5012, Activity 003 – HIV/AIDS Awareness, Prevention, treatment, care and Support – K660,300,000, we are aware of the purpose of the money, but the question is: Why only increase it by K300,000, which are six K50,000 notes?

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, there are 360,000 people on ARVs in Zambia. It is not a bad achievement, I might say although it was, probably, done by the wrong people. However, this is simply the normal competition that you get in a budget. We would love to spend twice as much, but we cannot.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 01, Programme 5001, Activity 152 – Developing and Managing Human Resources. There was an allocation of K831, 464,511, last year, and there is nothing for the year coming. Is the ministry not going to train or develop staff?

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, we will continue with training to capacity build the people in our ministry. The activity has been moved to 5003 under capacity building in line with IFMS.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 45/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

VOTE 45/02 – (Ministry of Community Development ─ Mother and Child Health – Social Welfare Department – K79, 810,105,800).

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, we were told earlier that grants to institutions had been moved to programme 5005. However, under the said programme, Activity 230 ─ Chikumbi and Mufulira Street Children’s Home, there is no provision for this institution this year and no grant will be given to it. What are the reasons for omitting this institution?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been moved to the Department of Child Development under the Gender and Child Protection Division. You will find the appropriate funds there.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification under Programme 5000, Activity 001 ─ Salaries Division 1 – K710,222,424. I have seen that the figure has gone down as compared to last year. May I know why this is so?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I earlier mentioned that there has been re-alignment in the ministry and some officers have been transferred to other ministries.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5049, Activity 014 – The Children’s Homes. The allocation for this year was K286 million, but there is nothing for the coming year. Are we intending to close the children’s home?

Hon. Government Member: Siunamvele ati bavipeleka kwinangu?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I think this answer has been given. The activity has moved to the Department of Child Development under the Gender and Child Development Division.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the explanation by the hon. Minister is that Programme 5005, Activity 041 – Insakwe Probation Hostel and Katombola Reformatory and Programme 5015, Activity 001 – Rehabilitation and Reintegration of Street Children will be financed under the new department, but this new department has no allocation in the Yellow Book. Does this mean that these activities will not be undertaken in 2012? Can the hon. Minister explain this.

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I have mentioned that this activity has been taken under this department which is in another portfolio. When the hon. Minister of Gender and Child Protection comes to give the estimates, you will be informed accordingly.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005.  Katombola Reformatory and Insakwa Probational Hostel do not appear here. I would like to know where they have been provided for.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been moved. The hon. Minister has been trying to explain that the component of the Child Protection unit has been moved from the Ministry of Community Development Mother and Child Health to now fall under the Ministry of Gender and Child Protection. Therefore, the figures being asked for will appear under the Ministry of Gender under the Office of the Vice-President.  The amount reflected in the Budget is for 2011.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5096, Activity 2 …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are dealing with Head 45/02. So, hold your fire.

Ms Kalima: Okay.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 152 – Research and Training, Activity 153 ─ Monitoring and Activity 154 – Shows and Exhibits. There were provisions made for this year, but none for next year. In particular, I am looking at Activity 153 – Monitoring, which had K500 million for this year, but there is no provision for next year. Does it mean that there is going to be no monitoring at all?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been moved to Programme 5049, Activity 006 – Monitoring – K350,700,000, as part of the realignment of the activity codes. The reflected amount is what was budgetted for in 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 45/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45/03 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – Community Development Department – K50,597,820,575).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 009 – Participate in International Women’s Day – K45,000,000. This ministry is known as Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Health, and yet there is no provision for the Department of Mother and Health. How will this department function? We do not understand this?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ministry is called the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. We are dealing with the Department of Community Development.

Mr Lubinda: Yes! Siuziba iwe, Namulambe!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5096, Activity 002 – Women Development – K16,763,157,895, there is an increment of K1.7 billion. However, Activity 003 – Non-Formal and Skills Training – K1,500,000,000, the allocation is the same as the previous one. I would like to make  a quick comment before I ask why this is so.

Sir, as women, we do not want to be blamed for failure to perform. Usually, this is the reason for failure to perform …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can the hon. Member, please ask the question.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, the failure to perform is because of unavailability of training …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

That is not a question. Can you ask your question?

Ms Kalima: Why is the allocation for Non-Formal and Skills Training maintained at K1.5 billion when the allocation for Women Development has been increased by K1 billion?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, this is an on-going programme. We will scale up the support to formal and skills training centres.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil . There is no provision under that activity. I would like to know why because this could be a recipe for demoralisation.

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, last year and the previous year, money was allocated. The K200 million was used give loans to the workers. They are servicing these loans and are paying back the money. It is a revolving fund which is being used by other personnel.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 45/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45/05 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – Planning and Information Department – K14,028,179,566).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 032 – International Obligations, there is a provision of K95 million this year, but there is nothing for next year. Does this mean that these obligations will end by the end of this year?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been moved to Programme 5002 – Events. It has been disintegrated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5060, Activity 004 – Mainstream Gender in Social Sector Ministries – K135,505,000. I am wondering why Gender Mainstreaming will only be done in social sector ministries. What about the other ministries? Is there any budget that has been allocated for them?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, in my ministry, we have budgetted for it. With regard to the other ministries, respective ministers will explain what has been allocated for the mainstreaming of gender.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: But the money is here!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Any further debate? Hon. Kunda, SC.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.(Muchinga): Listen, listen!

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Ba George!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 158 – Arts and Culture Infrastructure – K6.8 billion. Where do you intend to construct this infrastructure?

Mr Lubinda: Ku Serenje, mwana!

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, these funds will be transferred administratively to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. That is where this portfolio is and they are the ones who have the sites for this infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, that is not a response. You mean you are not aware of what you have budgeted for and what it is going to do? Can I have the…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Simbao(Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 057 – Policy Development and Review – K115,732,000. In the 2011 Budget, there is K513 million. Why is there such a big reduction?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, these funds are required to facilitate consultative meetings with stakeholders in order to finalise the review and development of policy documents and action plans. This is an on-going programme which has been funded before. So, we are just continuing with the programme. Some consultations which we have already made do not need any funding.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr R. Phiri (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 083 – Domestication of Disabilities – K140 million. What exactly is meant by domestication of disabilities?

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, this involves the domestication of United Nations Convention and international protocols regarding disabilities. I thought that is what you left when you were writing.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Vote 45/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 06 – Public Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters – K5,429,162,790).

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present the 2012 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, the Public Service Commission is a body mandated by an Act of Parliament, Chapter 259 of the Laws of Zambia, to appoint, confirm, promote, retire and…

Mr Kunda, SC.: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, we need your guidance. We have never seen the procedure being adopted in this House where an hon. Deputy Minister reads a policy statement on a ministry. Perhaps, you could guide us. Is he in order to read the speech on behalf of His Honour the Vice-President when he is in the House? With your indulgence, can we be guided, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order is well taken. His Honour the Vice-President should read the policy statement. This is why the Chairperson called upon His Honour the Vice-President to do exactly that.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, it comes with being a Vice-President for some time that one knows these things.

Laughter

The Vice-President: We all should be continually educated on such matters. I thank my hon. predecessor for that point regarding procedure.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, allow me to present the policy statement for the Public Service Commission on the 2012 Estimates of Expenditure. As you are no doubt aware, the Office of the Vice-President presents the budgets for all commissions to this House.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity you have accorded me to present the Year 2012 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission.

Sir, the Public Service Commission is a body mandated by an Act of Parliament, Cap 259 of the Laws of Zambia to appoint, confirm, promote, retire and discipline persons holding an office in the Public Service. It also plays an important role in ensuring quality service delivery in the Civil Service.

Mr Chairperson, it is, therefore, of paramount importance that the commission is enabled to carry out its mandate and functions in order to maintain a vibrant Civil Service. The work of the commission is guided by the following mission statement:

“To ensure integrity, equity and professionalism in the conduct of appointments, promotions, disciplinary control and separations in the Public Service in order to enhance delivery of quality services.”

Mr Chairperson, for the year 2012, the commission has focused on a number of programmes which I shall now look at.

Mr Chairperson, the implementation of the database in the institution is expected to quicken the processing of cases and facilitate quick decision-making as the storage and retrieval of information will be much faster.

Mr Chairperson, the implementation of the Monitoring and Evaluation Programm will enhance service delivery in the execution of human resource policies and procedures in the Civil Service.

Mr Chairperson, as you may be aware, the commission is the key appointing authority in the Public Service and, therefore, it undertakes provincial tours annually. In 2012, the commission intends to undertake, at least, four tours in order to reduce on backlogs of outstanding cases in the ten provinces.

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, submit the 2012 Budget Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission to the House and wish to request for support of all the hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, the Public Service Commission is a very critical component of the Government. This is the commission which employs and equally dismisses civil servants on behalf of the President.

I have, however, noticed that, lately, the Public Service Commission has somehow neglected its very fundamental role of advertising vacant positions in the Public Service.  These days, one hardly finds a vacancy advert running in the Times of Zambia, the Zambia Daily Mail or any other paper for that matter. Is it because positions are being shared among directors and permanent secretaries? I think that it is important that the Public Service Commission takes up its mandate. 
   
Mr Chairperson, in supporting its budget for this very important commission, it is paramount that it stands out as a people’s commission. It should be seen to dispense its duties in a critical manner; otherwise it will just be there on paper. As they say, it will be a paper tiger.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to mention the issue of the appeals and disciplinary units in the Public Service Commission. Cases in the Public Service sometimes take long to be processed by the commission. They wait until allowances are processed before they can sit. Even people who are supposed to be promoted are in one position for years. I know of somebody who has been assistant director for the last ten years.

Laughter

Mr Kalaba: Where is the Public Service Commission to identify such gaps? This lacuna in the way the commission is dispensing its duties is diminishing public confidence in it. It is important that civil servants know that they are protected by the Public Service Commission. 
 
We are also aware of some instances where an employee has been promoted by the commission, but because the Permanent Secretary of a particular ministry does not like the employee, he sits on the promotion. Why should it be so? The Public Service Commission should stand up to the challenge and begin to deal with such issues very ruthlessly.

It is important that the commission looks at such issues, especially that I have taken keen interest in looking at some of the items that have been presented to this House. My appeal is that positions that are advertised be given to Zambians who deserve them. The Public Service is not only for permanent secretaries or directors.

Mr Chairperson, another issue that I would like to belabour is the issue of provincial staffing and appointments. Sometimes, one wonders how certain things are allowed to happen. For instance, in my constituency, Bahati, at a particular clinic, there is no nurse. The person who dispenses medicine is a cleaner.

Where is the Public Service Commission to rectify such anomalies?  It is important that the commission takes keen interest in sealing these gaps, otherwise it will just be there at Cabinet Office and the Public Service will keep on degenerating. You are the ones that the public are looking towards to ensure that you deliver services. You are called Public Service Commission, to simply dispense public functionalities. I am hopeful and positive that with the coming in of the PF Government, the commission will step up to the challenge. I know that, probably, in the past, the issue of wako ni wako was very prominent.

Hon. MMD Members:  Where?

Mr Kalaba: I know that this Government is considering issues on merit.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Kalaba: The Public Service Commission will now go into this line. Everything gets distorted from the top. However, now that the top is very serious, I am sure that the Public Service Commission will also feel the heat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, we should know that when the Public Service Commission is dispensing its duties, political interference, like there was in the past, is a serious detriment.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Kalaba: It is important that professionals, like His Excellency the President has demonstrated, run the Civil Service. You have seen that our district commissioners (DCs) are now all qualified people.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: We do not want mediocre appointments to the Public Service. It is extremely important that the Public Service Commission guides the process and helps us. If we have people in positions that they are not supposed to be in, it simply means that the delivery of services to the people is compromised.

Hon. PF Member: Jazzman Chikwakwa.

Mr Kalaba: At the end of the day, when two elephants fight, …

Hon. PF Member: You will find Jazzman Chikwakwa! 

Laughter

Mr Kalaba: … it is the grass that suffers.

Yes, it is true. You will find people who are not supposed to be there misusing public resources.

Mr Chairperson, we thank the Zambian people for making the right decision and taking those people on your left where they belong,.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: Otherwise, this country would have degenerated into something else.

Laughter

Mr Kalaba: For the Public Service Commission, I am glad that the Budget has made so many improvements in the proposal. It is critical that the commission takes its job very seriously and dispenses public duty well. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate. Even though His Honour the Vice-President was very elaborate in his speech, I still think that there is need for me to talk about the non-payment of retirement benefits to people from the Public Service.

Sir, this has seen a lot of people suffering. We have a lot of people who have not received their benefits from Lupososhi Constituency. They have died, and their children have followed up the issues, but some of them have also since died. I think it is something that we need to look at seriously as a Government. These people work for their money for so many years. It is expected that when somebody retires, he or she is given what is due to him or her, so that he or she can look after his or her children.

Mr Chairperson, we hope and trust that the money provided for in dismantling the arrears will go to dismantling the arrears. More often than not, we have seen money that is meant to pay retirees diverted and misappropriated on other things. It is my hope, and the hope of the people of Lupososhi Constituency, that the people who retire are paid instantly so that they can also forge ahead and plan their lives properly. It is not enough to repatriate somebody without giving him his benefits.

Sir, the Public Service Commission is, indeed, a very important part of the Government. It is expected to ensure that it applies the resources on what was planned for. This is an activity based budget. If it is well implemented, we expect it to leave behind very minimal arrears.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 06/01 – (Public Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters – K5,429,162,790).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K172,545,987. I notice an increase in salaries next year, particularly for Division III employees, from K65,787,648 to K172,545,987, an increase of about 162 per cent. Why is there this huge increase?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the questioner for that question. The reason is that if he casts his eyes at Activity 004 on the same page, on the other emoluments, he will find that there is a very big reduction in other emoluments. Therefore, the commission is restructuring the way in which people are remunerated in such a way as to keep other emoluments under a certain critical level due to the implementation of the IFMIS coding and regulations.

Perhaps, with your indulgence, Mr Chairperson, since you did not give me a chance to wind up, I could just say two things.

Sir, the payment of pension benefits is the responsibility of the Pensions Board and not the Pubic Service Commission.

Just in this morning’s Times of Zambia, there are advertisements for the Ministry of Justice for the positions of Chief Parliamentary Draft Counsel and the Deputy Parliamentary Draft Counsel. Therefore, there are advertisements running. I think it is important to get these things reasonably cleared. Maybe, even the whole budget itself is not huge. It is about US$1 million and you cannot do much with that in a country of this size. However, I think some specific criticisms where misplaced.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K172,545,987. Is the increase of over 100 per cent that we have seen here a suggestive trend in all the other ministries or it is just for this Vote?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I must protest. I have already answered that question. I pointed out that the reassignment or recoding of payments that we are seeing in so many of the estimates is due to the implementation of the computerised information system. That is what it is. It is not suggestive of anything.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 036 – Launching of Public Service Commission Strategic Plan – K15,523,629. In the current year, there is a provision of K14,373,731. Will this strategic plan be launched annually?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the commission is still catering for the review of Public Service Commission Strategic Plan for 2008 to 2012. The increase is due to an increase in costs of goods and services.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 06/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

   VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K77,732,965,545).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the 2012 budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

Sir, the Office of the Auditor-General is key in the promotion of good governance, accountability and transparency in the utilisation of public resources. In taking care of these things, the office carries out audits to give assurance that all revenues collected have been properly accounted for and that all monies expended have been applied for the purposes for which they were appropriated by this august House, and in accordance with the applicable rules and financial regulations.

Sir, the House might recall that we had a seminar for all hon. Members of Parliament a few weeks ago. Among the presentations made was one which talked about the role of the Office of the Auditor-General. That presentation detailed the mandate, functions and powers of the Office of the Auditor-General. In view of this, I can only summarise that this office is a public institution with constitutional and statutory powers to audit public accounts, accounts of statutory corporations and private institutions that receive Government subventions and donor-funded projects, and then report its findings to Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, in view of my Government’s allergy to corruption and its commitment to uplifting the living standards of our citizens, we treat the Office of the Auditor-General as an ally and take its operations very serious. We would like to see every Kwacha raised and spent on efforts to fulfill our commitment of delivering quality services to our people. The Office of the Auditor-General, therefore, is on the frontline of facilitating accountability and transparency in resource utilisation. My Government will endeavour to support it by allocating sufficient funds to it for the execution of its planned activities.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the 2011 budget performance, the House might recall that, in 2011, the Office of the Auditor-General was allocated K62,794,146,978 for both personnel emoluments and recurrent departmental charges. As of November, 2011, K61,577,972,808, representing 98 per cent of the 2011 approved budget, had been released. This has facilitated the auditing of activities for the financial year ended 31st December, 2010, whose report will be made available shortly.

Mr Chairperson, as for the 2012 budget programme, as you may be aware, the Office of the Auditor-General will, in 2012, be for auditing the activities for 2011, a year which had unusually high expenditures arising from the general elections we just had. In view of this, the office requires all the support it can get to do a good job. The office is geared towards increasing the scope, coverage and quality of audit services in order to contribute to the enhancement of accountability in the management of public resources.

Sir, to meet the expectations of various stakeholders, the Office of the Auditor-General will conduct financial audits, performance and environmental audits as well as information and technology systems audits and other specialised audits, such as forensic and investigations. Through these audits, savings will be made that should be directed towards the core development areas of the Government, mainly agriculture, education and skills development, health services, and local government and housing.

Mr Chairperson, in view of what I have just highlighted above, I seek the unequivocal support of this august House so that the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General is passed.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the Vote for the Office of the Auditor-General.

Sir, His Honour the Vice-President has just highlighted the importance of this office. It is true that the Office of the Auditor-General is a good governance office that has to ensure that there is transparency and accountability in the way we utilise our funds. I also wish, at this point, to thank the Auditor-General of Zambia, who has been doing a very good job. She has performed her duties very well for a long time and has won many awards as one of the best Auditors-General in Southern Africa. She has been able to highlight a number of financial discrepancies in many ministries in our country and has done that without fear or favour. I wish to commend her, together with the officers employed under her office, for the good job that she has been doing.

However, Mr Chairperson, I think that, for a long time, we have not been able to provide sufficient funding to this office for it to carry out its work without hindrances. I cannot think of a year that the Auditor-General audited Government ministries and other spending agencies at 100 per cent. I think that it has always done less than 80 per cent of its work. We see that all the spending agencies spend a lot of money in this country but, when it is time for auditing, we do not provide sufficient funding to the office for it to go to all our ministries to audit fully. It only does about 80 per cent of the work required.

Mr Chairperson, I think that, this time around, we must ensure that there is a lot of funding provided for this office to audit all spending agencies. We know that there have been many suspicions raised by us politicians about how some monies in certain ministries have been spent. I think that, if we gave enough money to this office to audit these ministries, we will put all those suspicions to rest.

Sir, If this office did a 100 per cent yearly audit of all ministries, we will not even have to set up commissions of inquiry to check how we purchased scanners or how we contracted this or that company to do some jobs. We would provide enough money every year for the Auditor-General to audit all institutions and produce reports that are tabled before the President, Parliament and the Public Accounts Committee (PAC).

Mr Chairperson, I see that, even for next year, the increment given to the Office of the Auditor-General is only about 23 per cent. I, personally, feel that, maybe, starting with the 2013 Budget, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should ensure that this office is well-funded.

Mr Chikwanda interjected.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, another point that I want to drive at is that of being able to implement the recommendations that the PAC comes up with after delving into the matters raised by the Auditor-General. For a long time, the PAC, here at Parliament, has been very disappointed. I do not want to point fingers at any regime, but I can tell you that, in previous years, we have not seen 100 per cent action taken on the recommendations of the reports that the PAC has produced on queries raised by the Auditor-General.

Sir, I hope that the new hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his Government will ensure that whatever recommendations will be made to this House by the PAC are implemented. So many are the times we have raised concerns about some people misappropriating funds and asked the Government to take action, but nothing has been done. It discourages the PAC and the Office of the Auditor-General when such issues are not addressed.

Mr Chairperson, I want the new hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to look at this issue because we want to encourage the Office of the Auditor-General by following up on whatever recommendations it makes and whatever recommendations the PAC makes. We must not just let the press expose people who have misapplied, misappropriated or embezzled money after they hear of it from proceedings or reports of the PAC. We want the Government to take action. When a Treasury minute is tabled, it must be full of action that has been taken by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. I hope that this message has been well-heard by this new Government, which is very much allergic to corruption.

Mr Chairperson, the other thing I want to talk about is that of making the Auditor-General’s Office 100 per cent independent in its operations. Currently, it is not because the Executive determines the amount of money allocated to the office. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning, which allocates funding to this office is a client of, and, at the same time, also subject to the audits of this office. We have heard, in the past, that some people from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning had threatened auditors from the Auditor-General with reduced funding to the office if they would expose any discrepancies in their audits of the ministry.

Mr Chikwanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, is a very brilliant hon. Member like the one now on the Floor in order to misdirect himself on how many Governments there can be in one country at any given time? If the Auditor-General allocates funds to herself, she would be a Government in her own right. There is no conflict in allocations being done by one Government within the country. Is the hon. Member with such a high intellectual capacity in order to misdirect himself to that extent?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member take that point of order into consideration as he debates.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the Minister of Finance and National Planning just has to go to Zimbabwe for him to make sense out of what I am saying. Even in South Africa, the Auditor-General is not funded by the Minister of Finance and National Planning because it is a client and is audited by …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Once a ruling has been made do not modify it in any way.

May you continue.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, in most countries, Parliament directs and appropriates money to the Auditor-General’s office. We have seen this happening in South Africa, Zimbabwe and so many other countries in the Commonwealth. This move is very important because it gives 100 per cent independence to that office. We do not want to see clients trying to arm-twist the office into sparing them from audits. We want to see the Auditor-General work nicely with Parliament. We want the office to be given money straight from Parliament so that it is kept off the mercy of the Executive. This is very important. You will realise that it happens worldwide and I think that, sooner than later, you will see …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

As you are allowed to debate, please, bear in mind the ruling. Do not tempt me to curtail your debate.

May you proceed, please.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about auditing of the Office of the Auditor-General. According to our Constitution, it is not very clear who has to audit the Office of the Auditor-General. Therefore, it is very important that we amend our Constitution to ensure that the Office of the Auditor-General is also audited by an independent institution so that it adds a lot of credibility to the office. Since it goes out to audit other institutions, it should also  be questioned on how it also uses its allocations.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I think that this is a constitutional matter which can be attended to within ninety days without much hustle. It can bring an amendment to this House so that this constitutional provision that prohibits the Auditor-General from engaging a private auditor to look at the institution’s accounts is amended and the new provisions implemented within ninety days. I think that most donors actually demand that the Auditor-General is audited by a private firm. This can be done very easily.

Mr Chairperson, I thought that I should bring out those issues so that, next time, this Government, which is allergic to corruption, will provide enough funding to this good institution so that 100 per cent of all spending agencies are audited each year in order for us to avoid the necessity of coming up with commissions of inquiry. The Auditor-General can do the work that some commissions are doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Member: Wakula mwana.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief in my debate. I want to agree with the previous speaker on a number of pertinent issues that he has raised. I think that the Auditor-General’s Office does not audit just for formality. Those audits are a means to an end, and that end is to reduce financial irregularities in the Government. I want to emphasise the point raised by Hon. Mwale that action must truly be taken on the people who abuse funds. If you look over the past few years, the Auditor-General’s Report has been growing every year and that means that the financial irregularities in the country have been increasing. That is not a good trend for the image of the country. There is also wastage that goes with those audit queries, such as people failing to retire imprest and not following tender procedures.

Mr Chairperson, one of the biggest problems which is faced by the auditors is that there are frequent transfers of officers among ministries. You may find a Permanent Secretary or controlling officer who commits many irregularities in one ministry being transferred to another ministry the following year and a new different Permanent Secretary is the one who has to answer for the mistakes of the former. I think that there must be some stability in the appointment of these controlling officers so that they are accountable for their actions over a number of years.

Mr Chairperson, most of the Permanent Secretaries who appeared before the PAC were not there when those irregularities were committed. It will be very important for the Government to keep Permanent Secretaries a little longer in these ministries so that they are accountable. By doing that, we can know which Permanent Secretary is performing well in terms of financial management. At the moment, there are many transfers involving Permanent Secretaries and, therefore, we are failing to trail the perpetrators of financial irregularities.

Mr Chairperson, even the promotions of these officers must be based on how they manage financial resources. Sometimes, it is very shocking to find that the very Permanent Secretaries who leave a huge trail of audit queries are the ones who are promoted. The people are left wondering whether the Government is promoting irregularities in the financial affairs of our country.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I want to talk about is the issue of value-for-money audits. The Auditor-General, over the years, has brought out many aspects of auditing and the two latest audits are the value-for-money and the environmental audits, which are very important. The value-for-money audit is new and the Government must seriously look at it. Sometimes, money is spent not necessarily irregularly as such, but there is little value that money is bringing on the ground. I think the increment in the Vote to the Auditor-General’s Office is welcome so that it can strengthen the other forms of auditing. 

In this country, we must begin to realise the value of money. Money is being spent, but very little effect is being seen on the ground. The Auditor-General highlights any cases of misappropriation. It is the Government’s duty to take action against controlling officers who misappropriate funds.

We also need to take environmental audits seriously as a country. Zambia’s environment is slowly degenerating. Over the years, our children and grand children will inherit a bad environment that will be very difficult to survive in. Therefore, the Auditor-General’s Office must roll out environmental audits across the country. Some people are polluting our rivers in this country through intense mining activities. We must therefore, safeguard the future of our children by paying attention to the revelations of some of these environmental audits.

Mr Chairperson, the business-as-usual syndrome in this country must come to an end. We want to see this new Government reducing the abuse of funds by controlling officers every year.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy that people across the country are willing to read the report of the Auditor-General. Even in my home town, Monze, people ask about the Auditor-General’s Report. Every year, I take them a copy. I want to assure the Executive that we will try by all means to distribute the Auditor-General’s Report across the country so that the people know exactly who is misusing their funds.

Mr Chairperson, officers who destroy the image of the Government through the misappropriation of public funds should be removed from the system. You will be shocked to find out that some of the high flying former Permanent Secretaries have left behind very serious audit queries which require action to be taken against them. We need a truly professional Civil Service that will provide good stewardship over our resources. We need to take care of our resources carefully because our people are very poor.

Mr Chairperson, our country is not necessarily poor. We are just careless in the way we use our money. The Government must also look at the root causes of some of the audit queries.

Mr Chairperson, the abuse of imprest is prominent in most Auditor-General reports. Imprest is being used almost as a de facto salary advance. This problem should be seriously investigated. It could be that, perhaps, the salaries of civil servants are too low to a point where they have found the misuse of imprest as an easy way of getting some relief.

Mr Chairperson, the Government must look at the issue of audit queries in totality. There could be an underlying root cause.

Mr Chairperson, you may wish to know that a graduate from the University of Zambia is earning as low as K2.5 million per month in some institutions. I cannot believe it. The dependence ratio in this country is such that one working member looks after fifty people. The situation is further compounded by funerals, sicknesses and schools fees. This is the reason civil servants find a clever way of dipping their fingers in the Treasury through imprest. This issue must be looked at holistically.

Mr Chairperson, we need to identify the underlying reasons why there are these audit queries especially with regard to the issue of imprest.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I am collecting a lot of ideas from the debates of many hon. Members. However, I want to take this opportunity to correct some misperceptions.

From the inception of Zambia as an independent country, one office in this country that has been totally independent is the Auditor-General’s Office. Even during the One-Party State, the Auditor-General’s Office was independent. There is no Government in this country, whether in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) or MMD era that has ever attempted to compromise the integrity of the Office of the Auditor-General.

Mr Chairperson, I think a lot of praise must go to the first Zambian Auditor-General, Mr Stubbs Nundwe, who set the highest standards of integrity for public officers. We should all try to contribute to the process of building a better Auditor-General’s Office. The Auditor-General is very adequately funded. All the donors want to put money in the Auditor-General’s Office.

This morning, I spent one hour with the Auditor-General and a delegation led by the Norwegian Auditor-General who were very enthusiastic in their efforts of learning about the operations of the Auditor-General’s Office. I tried to plead with them to help us to prevent the scams which are prevalent in the Public Service. They can help us by supporting our efforts to strengthen the Accountant-General’s Office. Even programmes like devolution which are the essence of democracy will not succeed unless we have adequate financial controlling systems at the local levels. The money which we will send to the local levels which will be misdirected and misused.

Mr Chairperson, let us build the capacity of some key offices like the Office of the Accountant-General so that we have enough accountants. This will help us to prevent the thefts.

Mr Chairperson, the Auditor-General’s Report is very nice to read and very sensational at times, but does nothing else other than just highlighting theft or the misappropriation of public funds. Let us build the capacity of offices like the ones I have made reference to, that is the Accountant-General’s Office and Office of the Controller of Audits so that we reduce the thefts that are so rampant in all the provinces.

Mr Chairperson, I thought I should make these few remarks just to correct some of the distortions from some hon. Members who gifted in making speeches like my friend, Hon. M. B. Mwale. Unfortunately, they end up misdirecting others sometimes. They create misperceptions and then build on them. That is not the most commendable thing to do.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, with those few words from my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance, I beg to move.

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K56,221,718,324)

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairman, I seek a clarification on page 30, Programme 3010, Activity 010 – Preparation of Financial Reports – K165,000,000. I see an increase in the provision for next year. Is the amount of work going to increase or we are going to have more reports done? What is the reason for the increase in the provision for financial reports next year?

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES 
in the Chair]

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was about to say that the Office of the Auditor-General does not buy stationery on a daily basis. It buys it in large quantities and is expected to stock up in 2012 when prices are likely to increase anyway. So, there is an increase of about K100 million in that allocation. That is what I have been advised.

Thank you, Sir.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 006 – Extension of Training Centre – K4,000,000,000. I am desirous to know what kind of extension to the training centre will cost K4 billion.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost of the construction works. The extension of the training centre will increase the capacity of the office to carry out in-house training programmes. The increase in the allocation is due to the fact that construction works have reached an advanced stage and will be due for completion in 2012.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 004 – Wages – K759,157,179. Why is there a 100 per cent increase on the wages?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, that provision is required to meet the salaries for officers in Division III. The increase is due to the salary increment which was awarded in April, 2011.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3066, Activity 002 – Public Relations – K305,786,700. Last year, an amount of K216,870,000 was provided. There is an increment of almost K89 million. Can this increment be justified?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, the provision is required to meet the cost of disseminating information to stakeholders so as to enhance their appreciation of the office. The increase is due to increased awareness programmes planned for the year 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3003, Activity 007 – Short Term Training – Local – K708,000,000, Activity 008 – Short Term Training – Foreign – K397,000,000 and Activity 023 – Staff Training – K165,000,000. Apart from local and foreign training, what other types of training exist?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, Short Term Training – Local is intended to meet the cost of undertaking local short training which is aimed at imparting special technical skills and competences to officers in various specialities in order to build capacity within the office. The increase is due to an increase in the number of staff to be trained in the year 2012 as well as the provision made for price increases for various local training programmes.

As regards Short Term Training – Foreign, it is required to meet the cost of undertaking short term training outside the country. The subject of auditing is dynamic. As such, it is necessary that officers receive special training in specific areas such as performance and environmental audits. As you may have heard from the hon. Member for Bweengwa, information and technology audits are among the many types of audits. Such training is best offered in countries that have already advanced in such types of audits. The increase is due to an increase in the planned for training activities for the year 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/ 02  ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/ 03  ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/ 04  ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/05   ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/ 06  ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/ 07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/08   ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/ 09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/10   ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/15   ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/16   ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/17   ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08/01 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Headquarters – K114, 668, 126, 1234).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity, again, given to me to present the Cabinet Office Budget for 2012.

Sir, Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Public Service of Zambia responsible for co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures and monitoring and evaluations of the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of the Government.

Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia. The mandate of Cabinet Office is derived from Article 53(1) and (2) of the Constitution of Zambia Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia.

Sir, Cabinet Office comprises the following offices or divisions:

(i) Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet;

(ii) administration division;

(iii) management development division;

(iv) policy analysis and co-ordination division; and

(v) office of the former presidents.

Mr Chairperson, the responsibilities for Cabinet Office cut across all the Government ministries and institutions in relation to supervision and influencing the policy implementation process in the Government.

Sir, Cabinet Office is the policy centre for the Government’s administration and management. In addition, Cabinet Office takes responsibility for ad hoc commissions and new functions that may not have been allocated to any specific ministry or institution. The office also considers appeals and arbitrates between contending Government ministries and agencies.

Mr Chairperson, in order to effectively fulfill its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by the following mission statement:

“To co-ordinate the formulation and implementation of Government policies, programmes, systems and procedures and monitor and evaluate the overall performance of the Public Service to the efficient and effective management of Government business.”

Sir, to fulfill this mission statement, the following major programmes will be undertaken in 2012:

(i) General Administration

Sir, under this programme, the following major activities will be taken:

(a) public affairs in summit meetings – Cabinet Office will facilitate presidential, local and foreign travel as well as the maintenance and servicing of the presidential aircraft and motor vehicle fleet in order for the President to perform his Executive functions.  In addition, Cabinet Office will facilitate the hosting of, and participation in both local and foreign meetings;

(b) support to offices of the former presidents – Cabinet Office will provide administrative support services to offices of the first, second, third and fourth Presidents in accordance with the provisions of the Benefits of Former Presidents Act; and

(c) State functions – Cabinet Office will facilitate and organise State functions in order for the President to perform his ceremonial functions.

(ii) Support to Institutions

Sir, under this Programme, the following activities will be taken:

(a) Government communications – Cabinet Office will facilitate the provision of grants in order procure new communication equipment;

(b) Public Office Management Project – Cabinet Office will provide counter-part funding to the donor support for the Public Service Management and the Public Service Reform programmes;

(c) management of the policy process – Cabinet Office will co-ordinate the formulation of public policies, monitor and evaluate their implementation by Government ministries and institutions;

(d) organisation development – Cabinet Office will support the implementation of organisation development interventions aimed at improving public service delivery; and

(e) performance audits and institutional assessments – Cabinet Office will support the implementation of an enhanced approach to assist ministries or institutions improve service delivery. This will facilitate the development and/or review of the following:

1. Strategic Plans

2. Organisation Structures

3. Job Descriptions

4. Service Delivery Charts.

Mr Chairperson, as earlier mentioned, Cabinet Office plays a critical role in the management of the Public Service and provision of central administration guidance to the nation.

Therefore, the funds being requested for in the 2012 Estimates of Expenditure will be necessary for the effective execution of the afore-mentioned responsibilities.

I, therefore, request the hon. Members of this august House to support these estimates.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I rise to say a few words on this Vote on the Floor. In line with the request by the Vice-President , I will support it, but will highlight a few observations.

Sir, Cabinet Office is, indeed, important in the sense that it co-ordinates the implementation of Government programmes and as such, requires to be adequately funded.

Mr Chairperson, at district level, we have district development co-ordinating committees (DDCC) and at provincial level, also, we have the provincial development co-ordinating committees (PDCC). The plans at district and provincial level do not go anywhere.

Sir, in the Cabinet circular that constituted these two committees, ideally, the plans were supposed to be included in the plans of the National Development Co-ordinating Committee (NDCC). However, this committee has been non-existent for a long time. Besides, whatever these committees at district and provincial level decide on, has no legal backing. You will find that they prepare district situation analysis data which is never even used in the planning process by the Central Government. They also employ district planners who are paid by councils.

However, whatever effort they make is not being appreciated at national level. We used to have Sector Advisory Group (SAG) meetings which acted like a simulation of the NDCC. These are no longer there.

Mr Chairperson, in this Budget, I have seen that only consultative meetings for Provincial Permanent Secretaries have been provided for. I do not know whether this allocation is going to accommodate the plans of PDCCs and DDCCs. Besides, at the district level, the committees are not even funded, and yet people are made to do a lot of work. They toil for nothing. We would like to see change.

Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office is also responsible for Presidential trips. Whenever the President is travelling out, Cabinet Office funds the trip. I have seen that in last year’s Budget, there was a provision of about K60 billion and this year, there is a provision of K57.6 billion. We do not know whether this reduction goes with the actual expenditure. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to indicate what the actual expenditure in 2010 and 2011 on presidential trips was so that we see whether this reduction of about K2.4 billion has got any impact or not. You may feel that there is a reduction, and yet, maybe, the total expenditure could be about K50 billion. It does not make sense for you to just say that you have reduced that allocation by K2.4 billion without giving a detailed explanation. We appreciate the fact that the President has not travelled ever since he took office, but we want to know if this reduction is significant so as to warrant the reduction in the number of trips.

Mr Chairperson, I have also noticed that in this Budget, there is a provision for preparation of the anniversary. There is a new provision of K1 billion and I do not know what the activities would be for this amount of money. For instance, when you look at the Independence Day Celebrations which only a few people attend, there is a provision of about K1.2 billion. There is also K1 billion for the preparation of the 50th Anniversary. What anniversary is it? This year, we celebrated forty-seven years of Independence and next year, it will be forty-eight years. So, what is this 50th Anniversary? We need to know where this K1 billion is going.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Balefwaya fye ukwiba!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, further, we know that the National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA) is more or less autonomous. All along, the Government was not providing anything for NIPA. Now, there is provision of K5 billion. Does it mean that NIPA is going to provide free training or it is going to do it at a nominal fee to the Public Service workers? If an institution which is autonomous is given a grant of K5 billion, then it means that the Public Service workers must benefit from the training provided by this institution. We cannot just be paying K5 billion when the Public Service workers are not benefiting anything from the institution.

Mr Chairperson, I do not understand what personnel-related costs mean. This time around, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to tell us what that means and not just say that, “I do not know” like was the case yesterday.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we have seen that there is an increase in the salaries for the officers in Division 1. They are the ones who are getting a larger portion of salary increments at the expense of the junior staff. At the headquarters, there is a budgetary provision of K1.7 billon  for salary increaments for the senior staff in Division 1, K231 million for Division II, K132 million for Division III and a nominal K25 million for the classified daily employees. These are merely notch increments. There are reductions in the other emoluments. Does it mean that there were some other emolument costs that have been shifted or added to the salaries? We ought to know. If not, why is it that the few top senior civil servants in Division I are the only ones who are getting a huge increment, and yet the majority who are in Division II and Division III are getting a nominal increment?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: More money in the pockets!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, I think we need to understand this. There is also a budgetary provision of K200 million for personnel-related costs. What are these personnel-related costs? In the same budget, there is an increase on personnel-related costs which are arrears from K550 million to K1 billion. We need to understand these issues. If we are here to approve the Budget, as legislators, we ought to know what we are approving.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

As you debate, bear in mind that later, we will be going to individual items. So, some of the points you are raising now may be better raised at that point in time. You can continue, please.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I was just following what we were told yesterday that we must debate the figures. That is why I was trying to bring them forth so that the Vice-President can try and get answers even from the officials so that we do not get the “I do not know” responses when we ask questions.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Don’t kubeba answer!

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, there is an allocation for Independence celebrations under Cabinet Office. We, therefore, want to see to it that all the Zambians benefit from the celebrations at the district level. They must also send money to the DCs so that the people at the district level benefit from the national cake. We must change the system where only a few people go to celebrate Independence at State House. 

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order to be debating in that manner when fifty-six days ago, he was seated on this side (right) of the House and there were no Independence celebrations in the districts? I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling is that he is in order to debate that way because he is on the other side now.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May you proceed, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, in the first place, I do not regret being on this side (left) of the House. What I know is that we are just resting and waiting for them to make a lot of mistakes and then we can go back in Government.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, we want the people who supported them, the civil servants in Division III and the classified daily employees, to be given significant salary increments as well. It should not only be those in Division I.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Yes, they promised them and we want to see that they reward them by paying them adequately. Otherwise, these are the same people we are going to use to get them out of Government

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Therefore, we are just waiting for them to make a lot of mistakes. When they were on this side of the House, they used to shoot at us. So, it is now our turn to do the same. They are feeling the heat. When you understand how the Government does things like we do, it is very easy for you to spot mistakes.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: When we ask questions on points of clarification this time around, we want to be given specific explanations which make sense.

Hon. MMD Member: Not the “donchi kubeba” 

Mr Namulambe: We do not want to be told today that they do not know the answers. If the Executive does not know the answers, …

Hon. MMD Member: Especially the Vice-President.  

Mr Namulambe: … then who will know them?

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Namulambe: They are the ones who brought the Budget here.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Can we, therefore, be given the answers. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hammer!
 
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Member to debate. The hon. Member may continue, please.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office, is a very important office in the land because it co-ordinates all Government programmes. It is the one at the centre of implementation of Government programmes, …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: …  hence it needs to be adequately funded. We, however, need to see that the provisions in its budget are in line with its service provisions. There is no way we can approve a Budget which increases every year in terms of figures, and yet very little of the specific votes are going towards service provision. We ought to see to it that there is more money going to benefit of the people through things such as infrastructure development.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
 
One of the rules of debate is that when an hon. Member is speaking, because he has been given the opportunity to speak, it is important for others to pay attention to what the hon. Member is saying. It is not allowed to debate while seated. I have noted, with regret, that some hon. Members have taken to the habit of debating while seated. Pluck up enough courage to catch my eye so that you can be given an opportunity to stand up and debate.

The hon. Member for Mpongwe may proceed. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection.

Sir, on this side of the House, we will always stand up to speak and wait for them to respond to what we will be observing. I will, therefore, sit down, keep my Yellow Book very nicely and ask follow-up questions to get clarification on some of the figures that have been put in this Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, it is somewhat unfortunate that we are going to do a sort of double dip here, where we first of all, hear what the hon. Member for Mpongwe’s problems are during his debate and then hear them again when we come to actually go through the numbers.

Laughter 
The Vice-President: However, I will make the general point that if, at any particular situation, at short notice, I may not have the answers to a question, it does not mean that the Executive does not know the answers to the question.

It is absurd to suppose that actually I have at my finger tips the entire computerised records of the Budget Office. It is not possible for that to happen.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, let us get back to Hon. Namulambe so that he can raise his issues.

VOTE 08/01 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Headquarters – K101,237,880,089).

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3005, Activity 022 – Public Service Management Project – K1,500,000,000.  What is this management project?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I am happy to tell the hon. Member that it is a new activity, catering for the 5 per cent GRZ obligation, as counterpart funding to the Public Service Management Project, which is 95 per cent donor funded.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K344,667,720. This automatically attracts my attention. In the 2011 Budget, there was a provision of K1.6 billion. In the 2012 Budget, there is a provision of K344 million. Why this reduction?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the allocation caters for salary-related claims such as leave, travel benefits, terminal benefits, long service bonuses, sick pay and other medical expenses, and not salaries. The decrease in the allocation is due to the ceiling set by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning under the new IFMIS. I am sorry to have to repeat this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 038 – Preparations of the 50th Anniversary – K1,000,000,000. May I know what this is and how it will benefit the country?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the 50th Anniversary of any country’s independence is a very notable event, no doubt, to be graced in our case by a long planning period, surveys and even construction of infrastructure such as roads, stadia and so on and so forth. This, therefore, is the beginning of the process.

Sir, K1billion is equivalent to US$200,000, which is peanuts. How many cattle can you buy from US$200,000?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I think, therefore, that this is an entirely reasonable entry.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. {mospagebreak}

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 003, – Salaries Division III – K354,285,708. I would like to find out why there is a minimal increase in salaries for Division III and classified daily employees, while there is a huge increase in salaries for Division I employees.

Furthermore, I seek clarification on Programme 3107, Activity 006 – Procurement of Fuel and Lubricants – K1,909,228,974. There is an increase in fuel provision despite the fact that the PF Government has reduced the cost of fuel. Since there are no more vehicles to be bought, why is there an increase in fuel allocation in the 2012 Budget compared to the 2011 Budget?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I will answer them one at a time. The huge increase in payments of the total wage bill for staff in Division I is because of a recruitment of nine more senior personnel in Cabinet Office and other expenditures.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 038 – Preparations of the 50th Anniversary – K1,000,000,000. Looking at the history of Zambia from 1964 to date, what is there to celebrate?

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Is it necessary for us to celebrate at fifty years? What is there to celebrate with the way this country has been messed up so far?

Hon. Government Members: Celebrate your freedom!

Mr Hamududu: I do not know.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I take that as an ironic contribution to the debate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Give an answer!

Mr Mukanga: He has answered.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K600,000,000. There was no provision before, but this year, there is a provision of K600,000,000. What is this all about? It was not there before. Do you want the staff to start feasting or celebrating? What are they celebrating?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, it is a routine expansion of staff welfare funding based upon the increased demand for advances.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002 – Events. I think there is an omission on this programme. The youths are not accommodated under the programme’s activities. May I find out why? I have noticed that other activities such as, Activity 008 – International Women’s Day, 009 – International Labour Day and others are included in this programme, but there is no allocation to the Youth Day activities.

The Vice-President: Off-the-cuff, Mr Chairperson, I would say the youths are catered for under the relevant ministry and not under this one.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 031 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family – K800,000,000. Whereas this is indicated, I would like to find out about the support services for the other former Presidents’ families. Should I repeat the question?

The Deputy Chairperson: We are on page 73, Programme 3001 – General Administration, Activity 031 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family.

Hon. Opposition Member: Why not the First President’s family?

The Vice-President: I am just waiting for the pizza delivery service.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I think it is here.

If you go to the same Programme 3001, Activity 014, you will find support services to the Third President’s Family. The allocation is required to cater for Government statutory obligation to provide support services to the family of the late Third Republican President of the Republic of Zambia. The increase in provision is attributed to the anticipated increase in costs and prices.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga rose.

Hon. Government Members: Iwe, sit down!

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Vote 08/05 …

Hon. Members: There is no provision!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: There is no budgetary provision for this vote, I beg your pardon.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

    VOTE 08/08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Management Development Division – K1,893,210,803).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 82, Programme 3140, Activity 008 – M & E of Service Delivery Charters – K1,478,689. May I find out why this M & E will cost that much is?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity whose allocation is required to support monitoring and evaluation programmes on the implementation of the service delivery charters. I notice that it actually costs less than one goat.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, on both page 82 and 83, this department’s total allocation is K545 million, but there is another total of K1.8 billion. There is, therefore, a difference of K1.3 billion. Where is this difference going to be utilised? Are our colleagues on your right going to bury it as well?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I understand the reference to burying money, but I do not understand the reference to how the totals work out as they do, given that the figures that go into the totals are all here and open to inspection.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, that is why I wanted His Honour the Vice-President to check page 82 where there is a unit total of K545,545,224. However, the departmental total is K1,893,210,803. However, that difference between K545,545,224 and K1,893,210,803 is not explained.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, on the top left corner of page 82, it is stated that programmes under this head will be accounted for by the expenditure of the Permanent Secretary (Administration) and Cabinet Office, but this is not explained.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, there are three categories of totaling in the 2012 Budget. One is the programme total and, in this case, there is the total for Programme 3140, which is on the same page. Together with Programme 3139, this adds up to the unit total of K545,545,224. Then there is the departmental total which is made up of units. It is just accumulating and is a simple accounting procedure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Yes, it is simple mathematics.

Interruptions

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 09/01 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters – K3,230,340,484).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s estimates of expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission. The Teaching Service Commission was established under Article 115A of the Service Commission Act Cap 259, Section 13B and 21 of the same Act which empowers the commission to make, with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia, regulations regarding its operational procedures and/or to confirm powers or impose duties on any other authority of the Government for the purposes of discharging its functions.

Mr Chairperson, the specific functions of the commission are prescribed under Section 122 of the Service Commission Act as follows:

(i) to make appointments to any office in the Teaching Service;

(ii) to make appointments on probation, confirmations on the appointments, retirements and transfers;

(iii) to exercise disciplinary control of the persons holding or acting in the established Teaching Service posts and remove any persons from such offices;

(iv) to conduct professional proposals for teachers as well as sensitise them on their rights and responsibilities.

Mr Chairperson, in 2011, the commission performed its functions with a budget of K2,742,385,421 only. I now present the year 2012 Budget Estimate for the Teaching Service Commission amounting to K3,230,340,484. These funds will support the portfolio functions in the commission in our continued efforts to provide efficient and effective teaching services to our youthful population. I, therefore, urge this august House to support this budget as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief in my contribution to the debate on this Vote. In this country, we all know the importance of the Teaching Service Commission as per the sentiments which have been expressed by His Honour the Vice-President. The Teaching Service Commission has the responsibility of promoting, appointing, demoting and retiring teachers. It also has many other responsibilities concerning teachers.

Mr Chairperson, however, I have a comment to make about the money that has been allocated to the Teaching Service Commission. For the five years that I have been in this Parliament, I have made an observation that this commission, despite its being charged with paramount roles regarding the promotion of teachers and making many other decisions relating to teachers, it has been receiving minimal allocations. I would like to put it on record that this year, I stand here as a proud former teacher and now hon. Member of Parliament …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: … because, for the first time, I have seen a reasonable increment to this commission’s allocation. This is a commendable job and I to salute the able hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for this tremendous achievement. To the best of my knowledge and belief, this money that has been allocated to the Teaching Service Commission, come next year, will enable it to go to all parts of the country and ensure that all the cases that have been outstanding for so many years will be looked into and brought to an end.

Mr Chairperson, there have been cases in the countryside, for instance in Chilubi, where I come from, where a teacher who is supposed to be retired at the age of fifty-five is retired at the age of sixty. In other cases, some teachers, who are supposed to be confirmed in their positions within six months, are confirmed after fourteen years. This is not supposed to be the case, but has been for quite a long time to the extent that some teachers are getting demotivated. We want to do away with this situation. With adequate funding, the Teaching Service Commission has to go into the countryside to investigate such cases.

Mr Chairperson, in the Northern Province, there are cases where some teachers have served for fourteen years, but have never been confirmed. This is why we want to do away with this kind of injustice because, if it continues, our teachers or those who want to join the teaching fraternity will definitely get discouraged and, as a result, we shall continue having few teachers in the country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, over the years, many people have been appointed to the Teaching Service Commission. To my dismay, I have discovered that, especially during the last four years that the MMD was in power, most of those appointed as commissioners were people who were politically inclined to MMD. This situation is not healthy and has to be corrected.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to implore our able PF Government to look into this matter seriously and, if possible, review these appointments. We cannot continue to have cadres in the Teaching Service Commission who are not even professionals. We need an immediate solution to this situation.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, in supporting the allocation of the Teaching Service Commission, which has serious problems, I have a few remarks to make.

Sir, every year, we lose 11,000 teachers from the teaching profession. Three thousand of them may have died while 8,000 may have resigned. Therefore, even if the Government recruits 5,000 teachers, we will still have a deficit of 6,000 teachers annually. It will still be impossible to cover up the required number of teachers.

Mr Chairperson, I implore the Teaching Service Commission to look at the real problems facing teachers, part of which are, perhaps, the low salaries. If only the Government could consider reviewing salaries and the aspect of promotions for teachers, they would keep their jobs. How do you keep a teacher who has not been promoted or confirmed after working for fourteen years? You need to see where they live and how they operate.

Sir, despite having poor conditions of service, a condition difficult to bear, teachers continue to teach our children. It is against this background that we would like the Teaching Service Commission to address teachers’ problems, even if they are to do with salaries. Please, can they hasten the confirmation of teachers and ensure that their teachers’ promotions are done in the shortest possible time. Let us support teachers. I also do not know how the Government is going to make sure that we have the required number of teachers in place because every year more than 8, 000 teachers leave the profession. The Teaching Service Commission should address this problem.

I have seen, in the Yellow Book, that only a small amount has been allocated for utility payments. The commission has also been allocated less money to buy a vehicle when compared to other departments in other ministries for the same purpose. I urge the Government to look into this issue and make sure that a vehicle is bought for the officers to use when undertaking tours around the country. We have heard that the secondary school results from various schools have not been good over the years. I am sure that the lack of inspections is one of the contributing factors.

Sir, examination leakages are also talked about every year because of incapable teachers being in various schools. They steal examination papers and sell them to pupils. This is a new and strange phenomenon. Instead of teaching, teachers are busy with other things. At the end of the year, they just steal examination papers and sell them to pupils.  I would like to urge the Government to address the problems which the commission is facing. Gone are the days when teachers, especially in rural areas, were respected in villages. They used to get free chickens, but they do not get these things anymore. They have to fend for themselves. Children cannot even collect firewood for them because our laws have been tightened. If this is done, it is child labour. Let the teachers be paid a minimum wage of not less than K5 million so that they do not resign.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga:  If the Teaching Service Commission is not funded adequately, then everything else will fall apart.  I am yet to look at their salaries, but can still say that they must be properly remunerated.

Sir, when a teacher is promoted, let the promotion be effected immediately. In the past, there were retired officers in the commission, but there are now middle-aged officers. They are able to undertake tours to all provinces. Even if the PF Governments wants to increase the retirement age to 65 years, it must bear in mind that other people do not have the power to work at that age. I know of some people who look strong, but are weak. I will not mention their names. All I am saying is that the Teaching Service Commission needs to look seriously at all the problems affecting the teachers.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to say something on the allocation to the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, when we were passing the Budget last year, I debated on this same Vote. By then, on your right were our colleagues now on your left. I told them that if they wanted to achieve development, this was the engine. Unless they did not have future plans and their development was for a short term, they could not afford to ignore or give less funding to this commission. This is a commission that would help them bring about the development that they were talking about. Without their giving enough resources to this commission that would help them bring up people who would assist them in achieving development, they would be wasting their time.

Sir, I implore the PF Government to re-look at the budget for the Teaching Service Commission. We have always said that we do not have enough funds. However, I have seen funds go to celebrations that are not even necessary …

Mr Hamududu: Yah!

Mr Ntundu: … at the expense of commissions like this one. Please, if you are sure that you are going to develop Zambia in the long-term, you must give this commission enough funds. You cannot let it carry out its operations without a motor vehicle. You are better off scrapping it off because there is no way that it will operate without a motor vehicle.

Mr Muntanga: A proper motor vehicle.

Mr Ntundu: You are buying motor vehicles for offices that are not necessary.

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: I have seen His Honour the Vice-President driving a Land Rover. Give that Land Rover to this commission, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: I have seen you driving a Land Rover and a Mercedes Benz. You have all sorts of cars when the commission that is supposed to help you bring development has none.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: To our colleagues in the PF, I have always said that no one from the UPND has any ill feelings about your being in the Government. We are supporting you. What we are telling you is what you are supposed to do. If you do not listen and raise unnecessary points of orders, you will be sitting on the left after the next general elections. We are actually doing you a favour.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, in supporting the estimates, I have a few comments to make. First of all, I have learnt that the Teaching Service Commission is responsible for, among other things, the disciplining of teachers. I want to mention that, in rural areas, some teachers are very indisciplined. As a result, you find that the children are not passing. Some teachers just go to school to report and, then, leave the classrooms to go and drink. They get back to class whenever they like. They leave the children without learning anything.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to see the Teaching Service Commission enabled to travel to various places, such as Imusho and Sikongo, on the Angolan Border, to see how the children are learning. These children are neglected and, hence, the passing rate is very low. The drop-pout rate is also very high. If a child is not taken care of and does not see the value of education because there is no teacher, he or she does not see the reason to continue going to class, especially for a girl child when there is some man who wants to marry her or something like that.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Imenda: Also, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress Reported)

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The House adjourned at 1959 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 2nd December, 2011