DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 6th December, 2011

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE FUTURE OF FOOTBALL IN ZAMBIA

The Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport (Mr Shamenda): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to brief the House and the nation on the state of football and the future of football in Zambia.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, you may have to step forward to the Table and present your ministerial statement from there.

Mr Shamenda walked to the Table.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, football in Zambia is administered by the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) that is affiliated to the Federation of International Football Associations (FIFA).

In terms of Zambian law, all sports activities are regulated by the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ) established under an Act of Parliament of the Laws of Zambia. This means, therefore, that, by Zambian law, FAZ is affiliated to the NSCZ and subject to its regulations.

FAZ has a constitution which contains various provisions regarding the administration of the game. The constitution provides for the establishment of the executive, FAZ council committees and a secretariat. The constitution also provides for the establishment of independent judicial bodies.

Meanwhile, FAZ draws its funds from membership subscriptions, levies and corporate sponsorships. The Government supports the association through the national teams and payment of the salary for the coach.

Mr Speaker, FAZ had entered into a contract with Mr Dario Bonetti. One of the clauses in the contract provided for the review of the contract should the team fail to qualify for the finals of the Africa Cup of Nations.

Mr Speaker, the contract was to run for a period of two years and was due to come to an end in July, 2012. The termination of the contract means that the country will be liable to pay all the dues to the coach, as this is plainly a breach of contract. Furthermore, the ministry does not support the manner in which the termination and separation was handled by the association.

Mr Speaker, my ministry also deals with labour issues. In all circumstances, whether by separation or not, the dignity of the employee must be upheld.

Mr Speaker, while the ministry will not interfere with the separation, we do not support the manner in which the replacement coach was recruited. The recruitment of Mr Herve Renard was undertaken without due consultation with all the parties concerned. If the Government has to meet the costs of the emoluments of the coach, then all parties must come to the table, discuss and agree.

Mr Speaker, sports in this country are regulated by the National Sports Council of Zambia. Therefore, as the main players, the NSCZ must be involved in the administration of the game. The current constitution of FAZ recognises this. The executive is supposed to draw two members from the NSCZ and the Government. However, these positions have remained unfilled.

Mr Speaker, the ministry was not aware of the recruitment of the new coach, as there was no consultation. The whole process should have involved a lot of consultation with a view to reaching consensus with all the stakeholders involved. In the interim, a local coach should have been engaged because, as a country, we have many qualified Zambian who could have taken charge of the team and allowed for the search of a coach to lead the national team.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: We have the likes of Messrs Patrick Phiri, Fighton Simukonda, Wedson Nyirenda, Fred Mwila, Boniface Simutowe and Beston Chambeshi who have all excelled with the national team previously.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, the ministry will not be a party to the contract of the current coach.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, Zambia is endowed with a lot of talent, both technically and administratively. Football is a game that most Zambians cherish and love. Like all sport, it is a unifying factor in this country which defines our existence as Zambia. It also belies our motto of ‘One Zambia, One Nation’. It is therefore, desirable that the administration of football reflects this diversity.

FAZ should, therefore, be mindful of the fact that prior to any decision it makes, consultations with my ministry and the NSCZ are cardinal, although the final decision remains the baby of the association.

Mr Speaker, the PF Government will deal with all issues in a transparent manner, including the administration of football. There will be no sacred cows.

Mr Speaker, the future of Zambian football is, indeed, bright if only FAZ can put its house in order. The Government will support recruitment of the national coach with a proven pedigree provided the recruitment is done transparently and not based on patronage.

The Government will ensure that the operations at Football House and FAZ Council are transparent and orderly. My ministry will not allow the unnecessary politicising of the game. Football is for all Zambians and not a clique of arrogant individuals. After all, it is taxpayers’ money that is spent on football.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: It is now time for questions on points of clarification in relation to the ministerial statement.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, when two elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers. A gloomy picture has been painted of FAZ and the Government. Knowing that football is a mass game, what measures have been put in place, taking into account the fact that the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) will start on 21st January, 2012? Is this issue going to be left open so that Zambia suffers or is the ministry going to take some action to protect the interest of Zambians at large?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, there is also a saying that goes, “when two elephants make love, the grass suffers”.

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: I, therefore, wish to assure this House that we shall be transparent so that we all respect each other’s views. This will be taken into consideration as we administer sport.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, going by the hon. Minister’s pronouncements, it is quite evident that soccer administration in the country is in a terrible mess. A contract was entered into without consultation with stakeholders such as the Government, can the hon. Minister state clearly who sanctioned the employment of Mr Herve Renard without the involvement of the Government?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, FAZ sanctioned the employment of the new coach.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, if my memory serves me right, at the time of terminating Mr Dario Bonetti’s contract, the FAZ President, Mr Kalusha Bwalya, informed the nation that FAZ and Mr Dario Bonetti had mutually agreed to part company. Has the ministry conducted investigations to establish that actually the FAZ President misled the nation by saying that they had mutually parted company when, in fact, FAZ had just terminated his contract unilaterally?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that I am not the spokesperson of Mr Kalusha Bwalya.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Sir, the hon. Minister has said that there were politics in FAZ. May I know what type of politics there are?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, where there is political patronage, contracts are signed at State House and coaches are hired without following the laid-down channels, I believe that those channels are not right. We are not only talking about politics of this House, but also about running an organisation in a professional manner.

I thank you, Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, I want to commend the hon. Minister for making a bold statement on the Floor of this House. For a long time, Zambian football has suffered greatly due to poor administration. We are supposed to be the beacon of football. Even countries such as Malawi are now beating us when we used to beat them ten-zero. Can this House and the nation be informed who is going to pay for the contract for the former coach, Mr Dario Bonetti, that was cancelled? Who is also going to pay the salary for the new coach who is only a physical instructor and not a coach?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, the Government was committed to fulfilling its obligations as per the contract. Those are the only issues that this Government will take care of. As for the contract of the new coach, that is a matter which I have made very clear that we are not aware of. So, I will not comment on it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Sir, could the hon. Minister be kind enough to tell the nation when FAZ will extend its operations to the rural communities where football has not been developed?

Mr Shamenda: Sir, I hope this will be done as soon as FAZ is run professionally and all the stakeholders are consulted, including hon. Members of this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Sir, it is very regrettable that FAZ was allowed to terminate the contract of Mr Dario Bonetti whilst the ministry sat back and watched.

Laughter

Mr Chishimba: Is the hon. Minister aware that this nation will lose a lot of money due to the negligence of his ministry in this issue?

Mr Shamenda: Sir, I have tried to explain the various roles that the institution plays. FAZ ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

The hon. Minister is clarifying the issue. May he continue?

Mr Shamenda: … can hire and fire after consulting the stakeholders but, the final decision has to be taken by FAZ like in all consultative types of arrangements. The decision lies with the person who has the right to do what they did. If they did that without consulting the ministry, my ministry does not move around with a gun to shoot the people who are abrogating the consultative arrangement which is supposed to be adhered to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, why not look for a win-win solution because, clearly, we are being reactive just because you failed to be proactive. Since we have two teams, one senior and the other junior, why not bring back Mr Dario Bonetti to manage one of the teams instead of us losing money by paying him and the new coach?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, all I have said is that we would like to see sanity prevail in FAZ and not to start running FAZ from the Ministry of Labour, Youth and Sport.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, how soon are we going to have a new coach because we are going for AFCON next month?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, the ministry does not employ coaches.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport gave a list of some of our highly qualified Zambian coaches. In view of this, I would like to find out from him when, as a nation, we will take a position to rely on our local coaches as opposed to continuously hiring expatriates, some of whom have delivered nothing.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, at the expense of repeating myself, the ministry will not interfere in the running of football. All we are asking is for consultations to be undertaken with stakeholders. How FAZ will go about facing what is being proposed is entirely up to it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, why did the ministry allow the contract of Mr Herve Renard, and yet, it knew that we have local coaches in the likes of Mr Patrick Phiri, among others?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, if someone takes a decision without consulting you, can you be held responsible for that person’s action?

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, this is why I always refer to my position here as new and …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us have order.

Mr Miyutu: … becoming oblique. I have said oblique because I am facing …

Hon. Government Members: Ask your question.

Mr Speaker: Give him a chance to preface his question.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Long live, Mr Speaker!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I thank you. To your right is the newly-elected Government which is responsible for the lives of the Zambian people.

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I need your protection.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Hon. Lubinda, leave him alone.

Mr Speaker: Let us have order. There is only one Chair and it is the Chair that regulates the debates.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, we have just had elections on which a lot of money was spent to elect a Government that is to protect the interests of the Zambians. Thereafter, there was the creation of ministries. Today, we have a statement from the hon. Minister of Labour, Youth and Sport.  I only have one question. Is the hon. Minister …

Hon. Members: In order!

Mr Miyutu: … interested in the well-being of the Zambian people or in the sheer wastage of Government resources? I say so because …

Mr Speaker: Is that your question?

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: That is the question, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You may sit down.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that we are not interested in seeing resources being wasted.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, we clearly have a critical situation to which I do not see any solution at all. I would like to ask the hon. Minister when he will summon FAZ to the table, discuss and chart the way forward, seeing that January is around the corner. We cannot afford to delay and play politics.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, FAZ is affiliated to the NSCZ which administers sport in this country and we have requested the NSCZ to take its position and convene a meeting which we can facilitate.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, based on the responses that we are getting from the hon. Minister on this subject matter, I would like to find out from him the role of the ministry, in particular, his office, in sporting activities in Zambia.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, I would advise that the hon. Member of Parliament whose duty is to make laws to looks up the law of this country which stipulates the role of the ministry on sport. One of the ministry’s roles is to make policy and not to run FAZ. We are not a ministry of football.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has surprised me.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Can he confirm to this House whether he has no power or he is not just interested because he has the authority to make decisions on the sport.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Shamenda: The ministry has a lot of power, but will not abuse it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Shamenda: We are not here to interfere in the laid-down structures where we would like to see sanity prevail.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what action he will take against any sporting body such as FAZ that will make decisions that will cost the country so much money in settling bills like the debt owed to Mr Dario Bonetti?

Mr Shamenda: Mr Speaker, the NSCZ regulates sport in this country. Whatever decision this body will make will be acted upon.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 11/17 – (Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province – K28,434,721,481).

(Consideration resumed)

The Chairperson: If the hon. Minister still remembers the point of clarification sought by Hon. Livune, can he, please, answer. If he needs him to repeat the clarification, he has the benefit of the doubt.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mwaliteta): Mr Chairperson, may the hon. Member, please, repeat the question.

The Chairperson: May Mr Livune repeat the point of clarification, please.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order, pursuant to Article 51 of the Constitution of Zambia.

Sir, I would like to find out from the Leader of Government Business in the House, His Honour the Vice-President, whether his Government is in order to remain quiet on a very serious issue that has been made public by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia pertaining to the circulation of illegal currency in this country.

Sir, as a member of the public, and speaking on behalf of the people of Monze Central Constituency who have expressed anxiety and, indeed, on my own behalf, I have been finding it difficult to utilise a certain category of currencies that have been said to be illegal.

Mr Chairperson, I have in my possession a K50,000 note which has not been produced or printed by Thomas de la Rue.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: I will lay it on the Table.

Sir, yesterday, 5th December, 2011, His Excellency the President stated that all the currencies that were not printed by Thomas de la Rue were illegal, and that there were some in circulation in this country.

Mr Chairperson, as a law abiding citizen, I am afraid to use this money which I got as an allowance from Parliament.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I cannot use it because I have realised that it is illegal.

Mr Chairperson, is the Government in order to create so much anxiety in the nation without explaining its position on the so-called illegal tender to this House? No wonder some people have been burying money. They thought that it is an illegal tender. I would like to lay on the Table the K50,000 note which I got through hard work in this House.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu laid the K50,000 note on the Table.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

This is an important point of order because the hon. Member has said that the money was given to him by this institution. I, therefore, request the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to later come up with a ministerial statement on this matter.

May Hon. Livune continue, please?

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, the issue I raised on Friday was that under this Vote, there is no provision for labourday celebrations and youth activities, and yet other ministries had provided for them. I wanted to know whether our men and women in uniform were not entitled to these activities.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, there is a provision for that under the Ministry of Home Affairs Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/18 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – Passport and Citizenship – K315,957,956).

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K99,720,604. Why is there this big reduction?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required for the running cost of the office such as procurement of office stationery, materials, equipment and printing of forms in 2012. The allocation has been moved to Activity 009 – Utilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/22– (Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – Passport and Citizenship – K167,118,040).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utilities – K20,921,117. I see a reduction from this year’s provision compared to next year’s, from K36,539,794 to K20,921,177, whereas in other provinces, this provision has increased. Why has it reduced for this province?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required for the payment of electricity, water and telephone bills. The decrease is due to the settlement of all outstanding bills accumulated in 2011.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/33 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – Immigration Department – K720,053,498).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Officers’ Rations – K11,039,071. I have noticed that this programme is repeated under all the heads. Last time, we were told that the allocation had been added to salaries. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why it is still reflected.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Officers’ Rations – K11,039,071 is required to pay loans and salary advances to officers. In 2012, the amount has remained the same since the number of applicants for loans is not expected to change.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, I would like to refer to page 226 of the Yellow Book. My concern is on Programme 403, Activity 006 – Officers’ Accommodation – K107,501,676. 

The Chairperson: Order!

What page? 

Mr Lufuma: Page 226, Sir.

The Chairperson: We have already gone past that page. 
 
Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to get an item from there.

The Chairperson: No, you cannot do that. We are on Vote 15/33.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out why there is no allocation for officers’ accommodation under North-Western Province.

The Chairperson: What is the programme and activity?

Mr Lufuma: The programme has been left out completely. That is why I am asking.

The Chairperson: I am not sure but, maybe, the hon. Minister can pick it up. 

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, officers’ accommodation in the North-Western Province has been left out completely. I would like an explanation for this.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, do you have an explanation?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, I hope the hon. Member was present when the hon. Minister gave the policy statement. He said that the first thing we will look into is police infrastructure, including police camps. The hon. Member should hold his fire because accommodation is included in the policy statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, in his response to a question on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Officers’ Rations – K11,039,071, the hon. Minister referred to loans. I do not understand the relationship between loans and rations. The programme talks about rations and I want to know what that is.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, the rations are for officers who go for operations.

I thank you, Sir.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/44 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Mukubeko Maximum Prison – K428,411,240).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K77,726,463, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K52,161,317, Activity 009 – Utilities – K 52,866,339. On Activity 003, the allocation is almost eight times more than what it was in the 2011 Budget. I would like to know exactly what happened here. Is it because you have recruited eight times more officers?

Mr Chairperson, also Activity 009 – Utilities – K 52,866,339, why has the amount been cut by almost half?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K52,161,317, is required for the day-to-day running of the office. The increase is due to a rise in the cost of goods and services. Sir, Activity 009 – Utilities – K 52,866,339 is required for the payment of electricity, water and telephone bills. The decrease is due to the settlement of the outstanding bills in 2011, which had accumulated from previous years.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/46 ordered to stand to part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/47 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Training School – K 677,822,934).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K145,876,938. I see an increase from K12,983,000 to K145,876,938. This is almost twelve times what it is this year. What is contained in office administration to warrant this increase?

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, indeed, there is an increase here. It is due to the increased operational costs.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – K5,026,101,235).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the Floor. Most hon. Members of this House will remember the excitement in 1974 when we learnt that we were going to get an ombudsman. This is a foreign concept, of course, with Scandinavian roots. It was started to help people who felt offended or upset at the hands of Government’s bureaucratic system.

Mr Chairperson, the office is established by Article 90 of the Constitution of Zambia. The enabling Act of Parliament known as the Commission for Investigations Act Cap. 39 of the Laws of Zambia, provides for the commission’s powers, procedures and jurisdiction. As I have already said, the commission came into existence in 1974.

Sir, the specific functions of the commission are to:

(i) redress grievances of maladministration in public institutions;

(ii) ensure that social justice and fair treatment is given to the members of the public by Government, local and parastatal administrations;

(iii) promote public awareness on the existence of the services provided by the commission;

(iv) maintain regular contacts with other similar offices throughout the world in order to enhance the ombudsman’s ideals, share experiences and knowledge so as to improve the commission’s operations; and

(v) advise the Government on the required measures for matters relating to maladministration and abuse of office or authority.

The Commission for Investigations, this year, has performed its functions with a budget of K4,565,682,060. I now present the budget estimates for 2012 of K5,027,101,235. These funds will support the portfolio functions of the Commission for Investigations in our continued effort to address maladministration in public institutions.

I, therefore, urge this august House to support this budget as presented.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that this budget be accepted.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – K68,002,791,355).

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mrs Wina): Mr Chairperson, I stand here to present the policy statement for the newly-created Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs as contained in the 2012 Estimates of Expenditure. The vision of my ministry is to see:

“A Zambia that conserves heritage, preserves cultural diversity and delivers socio-economic and environmental transformation for people of our chiefdoms to achieve sustainable national development.”

Driven by our mission statement, we seek to ensure the proper administration and promotion of chiefs’ affairs, traditional governance systems, conservation and preservation of Zambia’s heritage, culture and arts for sustainable development and national identity.

Mr Chairperson, to achieve the above, my ministry shall, among other things, endeavour to:

(i) ensure the efficient and effective co-ordination and implementation of plans, programmes and projects relating to chiefs and traditional affairs;

(ii) conserve, develop, promote and present Zambian heritage sites, arts, architecture, cultural sites and values so as to protect the unique Zambian identity and national pride;

(iii) co-ordinate, monitor and evaluate the performance of the institutions and affiliated  associations within the sector and devise appropriate strategies for improving performance delivery of each organisation;

(iv) organise periodic review conferences for all stakeholders in the ministry in order to re-examine the direction and focus of the ministry in line with prevailing Government policies with the aim of helping to update the sector policies, plans, programmes and projects; and

(v) provide administration services for the promotion of chiefs affairs, traditional governance systems, conservation and presentation of Zambia’s heritage, culture and arts for the purposes of sustainable developments and national identity.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will, in 2012, endeavour to accelerate the implementation of on-going programmes and projects and add value to the principles of good traditional governance systems, infrastructure provision and the enhancement of quality leadership in our chiefdoms.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is responsible for various portfolio functions and these include the following:

(i)   administration of chiefs affairs;

(ii)   promotion of cultural industries;

(iii)   implementation of cultural policies;

(iv)   administration of museums;

(v)   preservation of national heritage;

(vi)   promotion of traditional crafts and tourism souvenirs;

(vii)   preservation of indigenous knowledge;

(viii) promotion of traditional ceremonies;

(ix)        administration of arts and cultural centres; and

(x)     promotion of research in arts and culture.

In order to achieve this mandate, the ministry has put together programmes with a total budget of K68,002,791,355.   

Mr Chairperson, the department of human resources and administration has been created to facilitate the reorganisation of departments, statutory boards and put in place other requirements which are needed by the new ministry so that it can be made fully operational for it to effectively and efficiently perform its functions so that it can meet the expectations of the Zambian people. This department is responsible for the efficient administration and operation of the ministry by ensuring continuous human development of all members of staff and providing the required support staff services and logistics for all the offices.

Mr Chairperson, the main functions of the House of Chiefs are spelt out in Article 127 to 131 of the Constitution of Zambia. These include being mainly an advisory body to the Government on traditional, customary and any other matters referred to it by the President. The Chiefs’ Affairs Department has the responsibility of implementing the policy for the chiefs.

Mr Chairperson, the Cultural Affairs Department, which is responsible for the preservation of culture and art in the country, will continue focusing on policy co-ordination, the continuous revision of the current legislation and providing support to arts and cultural industries in order to stimulate employment and wealth creation in the cultural sector.

Mr Chairperson, before I conclude, allow me to say that only the sustained implementation of programmes and activities through the Budget by a determined and focused leadership will usher in the desired development and aspirations of our people. My ministry intends to lead in this aspect as it intends to utilise the important offices of our 287 chiefs as effective linkages which can be used to take development to all the villages in all corners of our Republic. This will, in turn, enhance rapid development, and hence reduce poverty among our people, thereby achieving one of the important objectives of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to take cognisance of the constrained resource envelope, but still state that I would have wished for more funds to be allocated to my ministry due to its unequalled geographical spread. Our people are anxious to see their new Government bear fruit and we stand ready to deliver.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I stand in full support of this ministry’s budget. My brief debate will focus mainly on the chiefs’ affairs and the support staff known as chiefs’ retainers. I have noted an increment in the allocation given to the chiefs’ subsidies and retainers’ wages. There has been an increase of 121 per cent. This is, indeed, a welcome move which I support.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: When I look at the retainers’ terminal benefits and long service bonus, I sadly note that the amount provided in next year’s Budget has remained constant at K1,220,000,000. The hon. Minister should be aware that this is a group that we need to attend to. There are a number of chiefs’ retainers who are due to receive their long service bonuses and terminal benefits. So, for the future, I urge the hon. Minister to consider something beyond K1,220,000,000.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to note that Programme 5064, Activity 004 – Dispute Resolution, as it was called in this year’s Budget, has now been split into two activities. There is Activity 010 – Resolution of Succession Disputes – K80,000,000 and Activity 011 – Resolution of Boundary Disputes – K105,000,000. In the current Budget, which is for 2011, there is a provision of K315 million for Activity 004 – Dispute Resolution.

However, after this activity was split, we have seen a reduction in its allocation. For the resolution of boundary disputes, there will only be a provision of K105 million. The allocation for the resolution of succession disputes is also quite low. The total for the two activities is only K185 million for next year compared to K315 million this year. There are a number of chiefs’ wrangles in this country, as the hon. Minister admitted when answering a question a week ago in this House. Thus, it is important that the Government facilitates the process of attending to these disputes.

Mr Chairperson, on the allocation to the Chiefs Affairs Unit, I have seen an increase from K21,119,118,133 to K37,450,070,071. This is a very good move as it will assist the House of Chiefs to perform its functions as stipulated in the Constitution of Zambia under Articles 130 and 131.

Sir, as I conclude, I want to make a few suggestions which I hope will be considered by the hon. Minister. For the future, she may need to look at having a chiefs’ policy. Currently, as a country, we do not have a chiefs’ policy. As the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs reviews some of the provisions in the Chiefs Act and other related legislation, I would propose that it carefully looks at the draft Chiefs’ Policy and improve upon it so that chiefs can have a policy which will guide their operations. The policy should also clarify some relationships such as the ones between chiefs and councils, councilors and so on and so forth. That would be very important and progressive for our country.

Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to make these few comments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to support this Vote. I have a few issues to raise on it. Firstly, I want to say that in many respects, chiefs play a complementary role in the governance of our country. Therefore, creating a ministry for chiefs’ affairs is not too much for this country. This country is very unique because without the chiefs playing their role, we would have lost our cultural heritage a long time ago. With a dedicated ministry, it will help to preserve our culture. That is very important for the development of our country and also to have a society that is normal. Some of the cultural norms and values are very important for shaping the behaviour of people to complement the many challenges that the Government is facing.

Mr Chairperson, currently, the chiefs are playing a very important role. Maybe, they even do more work than the Government does. There are many challenges in our rural areas. For example, the chiefs are involved in fighting theft in our communities. Where I come from, chiefs are in the forefront of arresting the issue of cattle rustling. They punish people who steal other people’s property. They are highly respected and people fear them. I can tell you that before the police come in to help, the chiefs control cattle rustling in my area. So, the chiefs need support and I am very happy that they have been awarded such a hefty salary increment. That is a welcome move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, chiefs must not be compared to any other body because they are unique. There are only 287 of them. Therefore, even with a huge increase, the quantum leap is not big. Being very close to the chiefs, I am cognisant of the challenges they are faced with.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the only problem I had with that increment is the issue of retainers. The retainers’ salary increment should be measured against their qualifications. Some of the retainers are now earning as much as teachers, and yet retainers do not have any qualifications. I do not want the chiefs’ conditions to be grouped with retainers’ conditions because these two are in different categories. The retainers are simply workers. Therefore, you must always compare them with other workers around the country not with chiefs unless the Government puts a requirement on the qualifications for retainers. That can also help so that the chiefs have handy assistance.

Mr Chairperson, with that salary increment, I want to urge the Government to discuss with the chiefs at the House of Chiefs, maybe, to set qualifications for retainers so that they are also paid a salary that is commensurate with their qualifications. Otherwise, to just increase the allowance for a retainer not knowing their qualifications can bring about confusion because people will use that as a reference point. They will ask how come they were given more money. You must come up with guidelines so that they are categorised. I want our chiefs to have good retainers. In view of this, the salary increment was not done on a good basis. So, please, can you revisit this issue?

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is that our chiefs are highly politicised and this has continued even under the PF Government. The wish of the country is to see chiefs depoliticised. For example, His Excellency the President has appointed a chief to sit on the Constitutional Technical Committee. The President should have requested the House of Chiefs to choose a chief who must sit on that committee. Once the President begins to appoint a chief, he is politicising the chiefs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I know you want chiefs to be represented on this committee, but it would have been better to request their establishment to choose someone to sit on that committee from among themselves. The moment you begin to appoint chiefs on that committee, you are politicising them. The wish of the Zambian people is that, …

Ms Kapata was talking with another hon. Member.

Mr Hamududu: Jean Kapata, listen.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: You do not know everything. This is very important.

Mr Muntanga: There is no chief.

Mr Hamududu: Yes, you have no chief.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, this is a very important issue. For example, the appointment of a chief to sit on the Constitutional Technical Committee is actually snubbing the chiefs’ body. The chiefs themselves know each other and they have an established institution which is the House of Chiefs. The President should have requested for a chief from that body which deals with all chiefs. Can …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member speaking in order not to mention that chiefs should not be partisan like they were in the previous Government? Is he in order not to mention that?

The Chairperson: Order!

I thought that is precisely what he meant when he is said that we should not politicise the chieftainship.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to say that the wish of the Zambian people is to see chiefs who are neutral because Zambians are one. We are intermarrying across the country. So, we are basically one people. Although people come from the same chiefdom, some of them are PF while others are  United Party for National Development (UPND) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and so on and so forth. So, please, leave the chiefs out of politics. The previous Government also politicised the chiefs just like the current PF Government. We saw what happened during the by-elections. So, we are advising you to, please, leave the chiefs alone.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, during the campaigns in the last by-elections, the PF Government, sometimes, used chiefs to their advantage.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Hamududu: Please, can you adopt a new approach.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Hamududu: I have given an example here of one chief who was appointed by the President to represent who? If that chief was appointed by the President, he is representing the President not the chiefs. If he is representing the chiefs, he must be chosen by his fellow chiefs to sit on the Constitution Technical Committee that deals with the Constitution. Otherwise, he has no legitimacy on that committee. Who is he representing? So, please, I just want to use this as a point of reference. In future, as you appoint committees and so on and so forth, respect the chiefs and know that the chiefs belong to a body called the House of Chiefs. When you want a chief to sit on a committee, please, do it professionally by requesting for a chief from the House of Chiefs.

With these few words, Sir, I support the Vote for this ministry.

The Chairperson: Mr …

Hon. Members: Mwewa.

The Chairperson: No! Help me out. Anyway, I am talking about the gentleman whom I am facing; the one looking behind.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa (Mwansabombwe): Mr Chairperson, my name is Mwewa Rodgers for Mwansabombwe Constituency.

The Chairperson: Thank you.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, I will start by paying tribute to the PF Government for listening to the cries of our chiefs. No wonder the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs was formed. I appreciate the Government very much because, for the first time, it has recognised the role that our chiefs play as custodians of our cultural heritage and minders of our livelihood and, at the same time, the welfare of the people.

Mr Chairperson, chiefs and tradition are just one sub-sector of culture. I feel that we should have a ministry that incorporates all sectors of culture.

 

 

Mr Chairperson, culture is a way of life of any given society which includes not only the arts, but also the customs, beliefs, myths, heritage and other cultural practices.

Mr Chairperson, the cultural sector comprises museums, heritage, folklore and culture, cultural industries, intellectual property rights, film industry, music industry, dress, fashion, food and beauty. However, we have only picked one sector, which is folklore and culture where the chiefs and traditions fall under. I feel strongly that there is a need for this humble Government to rename this ministry as Ministry of Art, Culture and Chiefs Affairs or the Ministry of Chiefs Affairs, Art and Culture. When you include culture, then you will have incorporated everything. All art disciplines will be found there.

Mr Chairperson, culture in Zambia plays an important role that we have undermined for so long a time. It is high time we listened to the artistes in Zambia today. We all know that art can bring about national development, employment and wealth creation as well as boost our gross domestic product. It can also add a lot of value to our country and help revamp our economy.

In other countries, culture plays a very important role in development by bringing in foreign exchange. Today, if you ask anybody who imports musical equipment in Zambia, he/she will tell you how many billions of kwacha that are spent on importing musical equipment.

Mr Chairperson, the 500,000 people who are on the streets can be employed if arts and culture is promoted.

Mr Chilangwa: Bikako ubwanga bwakwa Mwata Kazembe, boy!

The Chairperson: Order!

The person behind the debater is destructing him. He cannot debate because you are consulting loudly. Give him a chance to debate properly.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, this can only be taken care of by the able PF Government with its manifesto that talks about having infrastructure such as arts academies and cultural centres at the district level such as the Luapula, North Western and Western schools of arts. That way, we will be able to teach people how to play the guitar and produce professionals from these schools. Therefore, there is a need to introduce syllabi for this.

Mr Chairperson, in sub Saharan Africa, the only country that does not have art as a national subject is Zambia. All other countries have subjects like drama, dance and music taught and pupils get examined in these subjects, which is not the case in Zambia. We only have a college that teaches teachers to teach teachers. We need to have a college that will produce professionals so that when they graduate, they are able to play guitars. Some Zambian musicians fail to play live music because we do not prepare them and we have never given them the chance to learn how to play a guitar. Most Zambians use computers to play music. We should do away with this kind of music. This is the time for the PF Government to show them the right direction and lead the way in art and culture. Let us empower the young ones so that they are able to do what they want to do most. I feel strongly that the PF Government will be able to look into this matter.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue is with regard to the amount of money that a musician pays to hire equipment. For musical equipment to use for one day, a musician will pay K7 million but, if we can have schools and cultural centres, they will be paying less because the amount paid to use the equipment will be uniform. Probably, it will even come down to K4,000,000. However, if we can have musical equipment in schools, from primary and secondary schools, for pupils to learn how to use, they will become very good musicians that we can export.

Mr Chairperson, the money allocated to art and culture may not be enough, but the PF Government has increased it a little compared to 2011.

Mr Chairperson, what happened during the MMD Government is that part of that money was used to buy vehicles for chiefs and repair them. The same money was used to pay soldiers. Does it mean that we do not know how to help the artistes in visual arts and musicians who want to produce music to earn a living? I strongly appeal to the PF Government to look into this issue. We should not appease anybody. Let us use the money for the intended purpose.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, artistes in Zambia are looking up to this Government for support. The youths we see on the streets have talents. Therefore, it is important that we exploit their talents so that they are also able to put food on the table and marry decent women …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to be seated where he is? Is he not supposed to be somewhere there?

Mr Chairperson: I am told he is in the right place. Therefore, he is in order.

May the hon. Member continue?

Mr Mwewa: Sorry, my friend, we are …

The Chairperson: No, the ruling has been made. Continue with your debate. You are protected.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, in short, I am asking that we move away from treating the cultural industry as part of the informal sector and treat it like part of the formal sector. If the 500,000 people were in the formal sector, they would be able to contribute to the development of this nation.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to make my comments on this extremely important ministry.

Mr Chairperson, this ministry is, indeed, a very important ministry because, in the long term, it is a ministry that will address the issues of cultural imperialism as we face them in the context of globalisation.

Mr Chairperson, the first President of Ghana, Mr Kwame Nkrumah, in his book entitled ‘Neo Colonialism - the Last Stage of Imperialism’, referring to cultural imperialism, wrote, from his own experience, that:

“I am neither fish nor fowl, but a caricature to be laughed at with my pretensions to distorted Western standards of culture.”

Mr Chairperson, that is exactly what this ministry aught to be doing to us. It ought to be decolonising our minds; it ought to be addressing the challenge of global cultural imperialism among our youths as the ministry repositions itself to really make traditional governance an effective instrument for our development. That is why I am saying that this is an extremely important ministry whose budget we must support wholeheartedly.

Mr Chairperson, the challenges that we face at the traditional level are many. There are challenges of peace and unity, and identity and the Zambian persona in our various local communities. Who are we, as Zambians? There is also cultural identification that we ought to display on the international scene. That is extremely important. In the evenings, all of us watch, for example, the Africa Magic Channel which is Nigerian. That has come about because the Nigerians have been able to look inwards, into their own culture. Because they have distinguished their culture, they are able to project it to the global community, hence our enjoying the Africa Magic Channel in our homes. That is what this ministry can do.

Mr Chairperson, there is a lot that Zambia can offer from the perspective of culture, tradition and traditional governance. One would have liked to see research emphasised in this budget so that, as a new ministry, more work can go into research, utilising our universities and scholars to delve into the traditional aspects of our lives. They can also delve into what is happening at the local level and what could be done best to promote our traditions to make our traditional leaders, the Chiefs, effective instruments of development in order to combat the problems of poverty, t address the challenge of democratic governance and integrate more of our people into the development process. They can also link our local people effectively with the Central Government. I would have liked to see more money in this budget in the area of research because, as a new ministry, there is a big challenge in creativity, imagination and in finding new ways of looking at what the Chiefs can do, what they are doing, what the shortcomings are and what could best be done to promote their role as instruments of development.

Mr Chairperson, clearly, as the new hon. Minister looks at the issue of chiefdoms, we have the challenge, for example, ...

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was emphasising the need for research in this very important ministry and the need to address certain pertinent issues which affect the traditional governance system. In particular, we have certain pertinent matters in some parts of our country. For example, there are area Indunas who, in the colonial period, were chiefs in their own right and national registration cards still bear their titles. In the current legal framework , these area Indunas are not recognised as chiefs and are, therefore, highly demoralised. I think this is where the new ministry should zero in. It should focus on how best the area Indunas who were chiefs in their own right can have their status restored so that they can be treated like chiefs. They can, then, access State resources like the chiefs do elsewhere.

Mr Chairperson, I will cite the case in my own constituency. I think this is extremely important. There are about seven or eight traditional leaders who are designated with the title of Induna, but were chiefs during the colonial period. They were presiding over chiefdoms. One of the questions that I have to constantly answer is what is happening to their status. Shall they ever be recognised as chiefs as it used to be during the colonial period?  That is a very serious problem which the new ministry should solve. If it requires research, then it should be carried out so that we find solutions to these issues that have financial and other implications. I am sure there are many other areas with such a predicament of people who were once designated, recognised and respected as chiefs, but whose status has been relegated to that of Induna with no benefits at all. I deliberated the importance of research in this ministry so that more resources should be allocated to these issues that are very important in our development process.

With these few comments, Mr Chairperson, I support the budget for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, I would like to state that the money we have allocated to the chiefs is not enough. Even the so-called huge increase to K4 million is insignificant. We should give chiefs money that prevents them from being beggars. The problem we have is that we only want to recognise chiefs when we are campaigning. That is when we promise them tractors and vehicles. Why should we give vehicles to chiefs as if they are beggars? Let us give them respectable salaries. Yes, the PF Government has started something by creating a new ministry.

Mr M. H. Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga:  However, the ministry’s mandate has not gone to the expected extent. What does it want the chieftaincy to be? What does it want the chiefs to be? We have changed from the colonial days when chiefs were very powerful. I remember my uncle, Chief Ufwenuka, had ten kapasos who would march every morning. These messengers used to go into the villages to control the behaviour of the people. If children were not going to school, the kapasos would make the parents answerable. They kept law and order in the villages. At the moment, we have removed the kapasos and given the chiefs one or two people whom we call retainers. I do not know what you mean by retainer. To me, they are some kind of small policemen for the chiefs.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Yes, they have to maintain law and order. If you go to Gaborone in Botswana and see Chief Gaborone, you will realise that he is a chief. Look at Chief Nkana of Kitwe, for example. Who would know that there are mining activities in his chiefdom? Who will recognise him? The Government has to give him enough money. Senior Chieftainess Mukamambo II is supposed to be overseeing Lusaka. Even Mandevu is under Senior Chieftainess Mukamambo II and those residing there are supposed to pay homage to her.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: If you are serious about the chieftaincy, you need to show it. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata should pay homage to Senior Chieftainess Mukamambo II.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: People should understand that they are under these traditional chiefs.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, presiding officers have guided that we must debate matters that are relevant to the issue on the Floor. The particular issue on the Floor has to do with chiefs and traditional affairs. Is the gentleman speaking in order to bring this hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata who is sitting here and struggling to try and make head and tail of what he is saying, into his debate and claim that I do not pay homage to my chief when, in effect, I always pay homage not only to Chieftainess Mukamambo II, but also to all chiefs in this country? Is he in order to make such an insinuation?

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that a greater portion of your point of order has been ably debated, that you pay appropriate homage to your chief, the hon. Member may be allowed to continue debating.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are looking forward to making a proper decision with regard to chieftainship. We want to ensure that the chiefs are there for the unity of the country. We do not want people who want practice tribal hegemony. They think they are many and powerful and, therefore, you should follow what they say.

Mr Chairperson, let us be unified under the chieftaincies. I know others are querying my debate. However, if you are going to advise Muntanga to marry one of your sisters for him to stand a chance of becoming President, then I want to tell you that that is tantamount to practicing hegemony. Therefore, do not doubt those facts.

Sir, all I am saying is that during the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days, which the elderly people remember, we removed the House of Chiefs because we thought that to promote unity, the chiefs had to be members of the Central Committee or be whatever you wanted to make them, thereby weakening the chiefs. The MMD Government reintroduced the House of Chiefs. The PF Government has created the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. We are going back to what the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda said that we should liberate the younger Zambians from neocolonialism. However, my point is, what extent do we want to go? Do we want to go backwards when chiefs used to sell us as slaves? What do we want?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Traditionally, a cultured person will not talk to a chief. In the Western Province, all Lozis cannot talk to the Litunga. My cousins know this. They cannot talk to the Litunga. If they are found talking to the Litunga, they are punished.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Mubukwanu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: We are saying that we want the chieftaincy to be used for the benefit of all Zambians.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mubukwanu: Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. Is the hon. Member in order to say that His Majesty the Litunga is not somebody that people easily talk to? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the hon. Member who was debating was jesting with his traditional cousins, he may be allowed to debate.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I know some issues are very hard to talk about. When they are raised, it appears as though it is not true. I know that in some areas, one is forced to fall on his/her back and roll over as he/she approaches the chief. These negative elements are what we are saying should be modernised. In the Southern Province, we talk to our chiefs and discuss development.

I would like to implore the ministry to comply when my chief informs it that the land in Kalomo in the Southern Province is not enough for the chief. It should, please, accept to give back the State land to the chief who requests for more land. Do not say that you want the chiefs, but when the chief tells you that so much land was his and he does not have enough land, you refuse to convert State land to traditional land. Why does the Government do this? It made the chiefs surrender their land to be turned into State land. When the chiefs ask for some of their land, which is not utilised, you refuse to give it back to them. Why?

Hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, you have to fight on behalf of the chiefs so that the land that was converted to State land from customary land and is not being used for the purpose it was asked for goes back to the chiefs. They need that land. Zambia is not growing. It is a small country. We should not only recognise chiefs when they are politically dancing to our tune. It is unfortunate because once the person being supported loses, the chiefs lose face. I am aware that those who supported the former President to the extent that they did, now hardly ever talk on television or newspapers, something they did everyday.

Hon. Members: Like who?

Mr Muntanga: What we want is to uplift them and make them respectable. They should be paid reasonably and not this K4 million you are talking about. It is insignificant. Give them enough money so that they do not beg. They should be respectable.

Hon. Government Members: How much?

Mr Muntanga: Give them K10 million.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Muntanga: That will make me confident that my chief will not be crying for anything and he will speak independently. If you cannot pay them K10 million, pay them, at least, K6 million. Then the chiefs will be respectable.

When we want development, we use the chiefs. We ask them to give us people. When it is time to vote, we call on the chiefs and give them things for them to thank us. However, if the chiefs are well paid, there is no need to go there with goods. The chiefs know what to say because they know their rights. You are overplaying tradition by thinking that the chiefs can only thank you when you give them small presents.

Sir, perhaps,  you should include ‘Witchcraft’ to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs because …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … it is only recognised under traditional courts. I remember, early this year, there was a party that had a problem with witchcraft.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I am trying to say that that party …

Hon. Opposition Member: Which party?

Mr Muntanga: It is now in Government.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: ... should stop fearing witchcraft.

We want the House to accept that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs …

Mr Ntundu: and witchcraft!

Mr Muntanga: … and Witchcraft is harmonised.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda said that the Nigerians were doing very well with regard to promoting their culture. I hope you have noticed how the igwes behave.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: If you did, since I am one of the igwes, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I will inform …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May the hon. Member, please, translate the word ‘igwe’. What does it mean?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the word ‘igwe’ means ‘king’, not ‘induna’. An igwe is a powerful man. What we are saying is that igwes are well respected. When you go to South Africa, you will see that they are respected. However, here, we want to play seek and hide. We have given a ministry …

Hon. Members: Hide and Seek!

Mr Muntanga: I do not want to talk about hide and seek, which is too obvious.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I want the chiefs to be respected through this ministry.

We now have a Permanent Secretary who is Tonga, and who knows what respectability means because other people are deceitful. They will laugh with you and pretend that they respect you and yet, behind your back, they will say ‘don’t kubeba’.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Things like this are not good under traditional beliefs. Be what you are. Do not hide your identity or what you do. Please, this is not right. I hope the chiefs will truthfully get their money. We do not want to hear that, after all, there was ‘don’t kubeba’ and the chiefs never got their money.

Sir, I fully support this ministry. The issue that I want the hon. Minister to take care of is the House of Chiefs, which is merely hanging in there. Please sort out who is stronger between the House of Chiefs and the ministry. Will the ministry be in charge of the House of Chiefs? We want to know who does what because the Chairperson of the House of Chiefs is also getting stronger. We want this harmonised.

Mr Chairperson, very soon, we will have some things that are not correctly done. There is no confusion unless you want to be stuck with don’t kubeba.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can the hon. Member, please, address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform the Government that there is no confusion. It only comes when the Government practises ‘don’t kubeba’ and does not tell people what is right.

With these few words, I support the Vote.

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of the House.

Sir, in supporting the creation of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and the Vote, I want to add a dimension to what those who have debated before me have said regarding the role played by our traditional rulers, namely the chiefs.

Sir, our chiefs are custodians of traditional land. Some of them believe that whatever exists in their chiefdoms, in terms of resources such as land, forests and lakes, belongs to them, and yet the truth is that they are merely custodians. So, my understanding is that the resources that are found in any given chiefdom should be harnessed for the benefit of all the people who live in that chiefdom.

Sir, it is sad to note that some of our chiefs are selling large tracts of land to foreigners, forgetting that the population and development are on the increase.

Mr Yaluma crossed the Floor.

Mr Mwiimbu: Order, order!

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Jack Mwiimbu!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, I stand here a happy hon. Member of Parliament because we now have a Government ministry which, I believe, will keep the activities of some of our chiefs in check and prevent the indiscriminate selling of valuable land.

Sir, students of history will agree with me that history is replete with revolutions that were caused by nothing else, but the issue of land. Therefore, for traditional rulers who are in the habit of fattening their pockets at the expense of their own people, we now have a ministry that will keep an eagle’s eye on what they do. If this trend is allowed to continue, God forbid, I do not know what will be left for posterity. How sad it would be for posterity to judge those of us who are living now harshly because we are not responsible enough to preserve a country that they can inherit and be proud of.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, I am sure that our traditional rulers who are listening to today’s debate will take a cue and begin to tread cautiously. I know of some traditional rulers who have done all sorts of things to make themselves comfortable whilst their people wallow in dire poverty, but I do not want to mention their names. That is a challenge to the ministry and I urge it to keep these chiefs in check. Otherwise, like other speakers have said, we are all cheered by this move of creating the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to debate on the Motion on the Floor. I want, in particular, to thank Hon. Kazonga for highlighting some of the issues that relate to the chiefs policy. I can assure the hon. Member that we, as a ministry, are also looking at the formulation of the chiefs policy. I am sure we will build on what was started by the previous regime.

Sir, on the issue of the chiefs’ retainers, I think Hon. Hamududu is only equating their salaries to who they are and not what they do or their qualifications. All these issues are being looked into. The chiefs’ retainers are doing a commendable job. They do not have an overtime allowance, and yet, sometimes, work twenty-four hours a day. This needs to be taken into consideration.

Mr  Chairperson, the hon. Member for Mwansabombwe is advocating changing the title of the ministry. This is an issue that can be looked into. However, I think that we are comfortable with what we have at the moment. I further agree entirely with the hon. Member that our schools should promote the teaching of art and culture more intensively than they do. The hon. Minister of Education, Science and Vocational Training is seated next to me and I think he is getting the message. Our syllabus should change to include art and culture. There should also be talent identification in our young people so as to promote and support them and enable them earn a living from the arts.

Sir, Hon. Lungwangwa referred to global cultural imperialism and I cannot agree with him more on this issue. Our culture should respect our diversity and I think there is a lot that this ministry can do, together with the people of Zambia, in making our young people appreciate their culture more than they currently do. Research has a lot to do with finding out what was, what is and what will be in the body of our culture.

Sir, the issue of unrecognised chiefs is the cry in most parts of Zambia and my ministry is looking into it. Hon. Muntanga talked about the powers of chiefs and what this ministry intends them to do. It has been pointed out, on different occasions, that we want the chiefs to be partners in development. As such, they need additional powers in order to exercise their functions and obligations. For example, we are looking at the various pieces of legislation that relate to chiefs such as the Mines Act, the Investment Act, the Chiefs Act and the Lands Act all hinge on the livelihoods of the people in rural areas and in chiefdoms.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure that we will also look into the issue of State land. The fact that this Government has created this ministry is a sure sign that we want to bring harmony in the country. We want to bring about unity through our cultural diversity by using our chiefs and chiefdoms. Indeed, the allocation and selling of large portions of land is an issue of concern to the Government. That is why we are looking at the various pieces of legislation. As Hon. Kazabu has observed, we have to keep some chiefs in check. I suppose this big issue needs to be handled at various levels and by various ministries.

Mr Chairperson, I thank the contributors to debate on this Motion and all hon. Members for supporting my ministry’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs– House of Chiefs Department– K37,450,070,071).

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 017 – Management of Chiefs’ Subsidies – K150 million. May I know what exactly this is?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, chiefs’ subsidies are allowances given to chiefs. They are not salaries.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 019 – Traditional Ceremonies. Why is there no provision for traditional ceremonies?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, the provision for traditional ceremonies is under cultural affairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 001 – Participation in Regional and International Meetings – Nil. There is a provision for this activity in the 2011 Budget, but it is not there in the 2012 Budget. Does this mean that chiefs will not participate in any international meetings in 2012?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, the allocation for 2011 will run into 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5064, Activity 002 – Provincial Councils of Chiefs Meeting-Local – K263,820,577 and Activity 003 – By-Elections for House of Chiefs Members – K1,150,000,000.

Mr Chairperson, Activity 003 has a provision of over K1 billion. May I know why this amount has been increased from K120 million to K1.1 billion when the Provincial Councils of Chiefs’ Meeting can be used to fill up the House of Chiefs vacancies, should there be any. Why is there such a big amount of money for by-elections only?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, the tenure for the current House of Chiefs is coming to an end. There will be some elections for positions in the House of Chiefs. There are also new chiefs coming on board. Therefore, there has to be an increase to the allocation in question.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6017, Activity 003 – Disaster Mitigation – K200,000,000. What disasters are expected in chiefdoms that are different from those which are handled by the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) under the Office of the Vice-President?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, sometimes, we get requests from chiefs for assistance. For instance, when a roof of a palace has been blown off, we need to react immediately before even the DMMU comes in. These are some of the disasters we handle.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 143, on Programme 5031, Activity 038 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles – K400,000,000. Let us code that particular provision as 5031/038.

Mr Chairperson, on page 145, there is also Programme 5031, Activity 038 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles – K1,000,000,000. This is one programme with two different amounts. Can the hon. Minister explain this inconsistency?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, there is no inconsistency whatsoever. This is a new ministry which will require transportation for its main office. This new ministry is going to have offices in all the provinces. There will be a need for the provision of transport to provincial offices.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson may I have clarification on Programme 5017, Activity 002 – Cultural Research – Nil. I noticed that there is no provision for that activity.  Research is one important aspect that we need to invest in to gather information about that which is hidden. May I know why there is no provision for research?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, research in this ministry is undertaken by the various organs of the ministry such as the Department of Heritage and Cultural Affairs and the Department of Arts. This way, the provision will be taken care of by the different umbrella departments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, my question was not adequately answered.

Hon. Government Member: What was your question?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I wanted clarification on Programme 5064, Activity 002 – Provincial Councils of Chiefs Meetings-Local – K263,820,577 and Activity 003 – By-Elections for House of Chiefs Members – K1,150,000,000.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated that the tenure of office for the House of Chiefs’ members is coming to an end this year. As far as I know, if there are elections to be held, they are supposed to take place at the first ordinary council of chiefs’ meetings at the provincial level which are provided for in the budget. Why is it that we have a large provision of over K1 billion for by-elections, when the people who are going to form the House of Chiefs will be elected at the first ordinary council of chiefs’ meetings at the provincial level?

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, perhaps, I did not clarify the fact that we shall, for the first time, have council of chiefs’ meetings at the provincial level at which we will have elections. Since we now have ten provinces, the budget for this purpose has been increased accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.
 
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/04 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Cultural Department – K20,905,955,824).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment in Vote 13/04 – Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Cultural Services Department:

(i) Under 1 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme: 5005 Grants to Institutions – Operational, Activity 315 National Museum Board, by the deletion of K4,738,324,812 and the substitution therefor of K6,572,107,270; and

(ii) Under 1 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme: 5005 Grants to Institutions – Operational, Activity 316 National Heritage Conservations Commission, by the deletion of K6,572,107,270 and the substitution therefor of K4,738,324,812.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 13/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources – K101,454,537,853).

The Minister of Mines and Natural Resources (Mr Simuusa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry for the fiscal year 2012.

Sir, allow me to begin by thanking the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for a well- presented National Budget which focuses on making Zambia a better place for all.

Mr Chairperson, as the House may be aware, my ministry’s mandate has been broadened to encompass two important and mutually reinforcing sectors, mining and natural resources. In terms of developing the country, the natural resources component is fundamental to economic growth. Mining, forestry and wildlife, sitting under one ministry, present the potential and opportunity to share synergies and harmonise any areas of conflict of interest.

The House may wish to know that the Ministry of Mines and National Resources is responsible for the managing of the natural resources of the country for their efficient exploitation and sustainable utilisation in order to derive optimum benefits from them for the country.

Sir, let me now give the highlights of the performance of the mining and natural resources sector in 2011.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to mining, the mandate is to manage the mineral resources of the country. This includes the monitoring and supervision of the operations of the mining industry and seismic activities in order to facilitate appropriate interventions. There was a marked improvement in the performance of the mining sector in 2011 as evidenced by the increase in copper production and the number of projects that progressed to the mine development stage. Copper production increased from 490,930 tonnes during the period January to September 2010 to 504,322 tonnes during the same period in 2011, and is projected to increase to 800,000 tonnes at the end of the year.

Projects that progressed to the mine construction stage during the year, included:

(i) Trident Mine by First Quantum Minerals Limited in the North-Western Province. The US$1 billion project will create 2,000 jobs at the construction stage and is expected to be completed by 2014. The mine will initially produce 150,000 tonnes of copper per annum;

(ii) the South East Mine Ore Body of the Non-Ferrous Corporation Africa (NFC) in Chambeshi on the Copperbelt will be constructed at a total cost of US$832 million. It will create 1,000 jobs during the construction phase and up to 5,000 jobs at the commencement of production in 2016. The average annual copper production at the mine is projected at 26,000 tonnes; and

(iii) 96 per cent of the construction works at the Mulyashi Copper Project were completed as at the end of November, 2011. The mine is expected to be commissioned before the end of the year.

In addition, Maamba Collieries Limited resumed operations in July. The mine has created 200 job opportunities which are expected to increase to 2,000, once the construction of the power plant commences in 2014.

Sir, in order to improve the availability of geological information so as to attract investment, my ministry conducted geological mapping of three quarter degree sheet areas in the Luapula and North-Western provinces. In addition, the presence of limestone suitable for cement production was established through surveys conducted in Nyimba, Petauke and Mpongwe districts.

Further, my ministry granted seventeen licences to twelve companies in the Western, North-Western, Eastern and Luapula provinces to explore for oil and gas. The companies are expected to commence exploration in 2012.

Mr Chairperson, the growth of the mining sector continued to be faced with a number of challenges which include the following:

(i) inadequate power supply - mining activities have been increasing while power generation has lagged behind;

(ii) inadequate transport infrastructure - the progression of some mining projects has been  slow because they are located in remote parts of the country where transport infrastructure is under developed;

(iii) fluctuation and decline in metal prices coupled with high production costs; and

(iv) inadequate geological information, particularly for small-scale miners who are unable to hire technical expertise.

Mr Chairperson, the goal for the natural resources sector which more specifically refers to forests and wildlife is to ensure their sustainable use for the benefit of the people.

The review of the National Forest Policy of 1998 and the Forest Act No. 7 of 1999 is underway in order to incorporate recent developments such as climate change, trans-boundary management of forest resources and community participation in forest management. In addition, a total of 600 hectares of local supply forest plantations were established across the provinces.

Despite these efforts, the country continued to experience high levels of deforestation and forest degradation attributed to, among other things, unsustainable agricultural activities, urbanisation and settlement expansion as well as the ever increasing demand for wood-based energy, especially charcoal.

Sir, the Lusaka National Park was gazetted as the twentieth national park in Zambia. The construction of infrastructure in the park has commenced. Further, the restocking of animals in selected parks continued. This has led to the increase in the number of species of animals in our parks.

The performance of the wildlife sector continued to be poor due to lack of capitalisation. The Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), the body responsible for managing the country’s wildlife estate, has never been significantly capitalised since its formation. This has made it difficult for ZAWA to perform efficiently.

Mr Chairperson, let us now discuss the budget estimates for my ministry. The budget estimates for 2012 sit at K101,454,537,853. With these resources, my ministry will focus on the following major programmes:

(i) conducting mine technical audits and increasing supervision – the ministry plans to develop the capacity to undertake technical audits and supervision of mining operations, especially in large-scale mines as part of its core regulatory functions;

(ii) geological and structural mapping – four quarter degree sheet areas will be mapped in Luapula Province, increasing the marked area of the country to 59 per cent;

(iii) conducting mineral exploration and resources surveys to promote exploration of non-traditional mineral commodities – the focus will be on minerals for which there have been enquiries by potential investors and these will include rare earth elements, limestone, gypsum, clays and aluminous rocks;

(iv) increasing the capacity of the Mines Safety Department to be proactive in the prevention of mine accidents, health promotion and reduction in environmental pollution and degradation – this will involve equipping the laboratory and testing workshop as well as sensitising small-scale miners on safety, health and environment;

(v) facilitating the development of small-scale mines and improving their compliance to safety, health and environmental regulations through the provision of technical extension services;

(vi) reviewing the mine licensing system and procedures to ensure efficiency, transparency and accountability – this will include the upgrading of the computerised cadastral system and reviewing the mining rights processing procedure; and

(vii) building capacity of the ministry to effectively regulate the sector – this will involve recruiting and training technical and professional staff and acquisition of necessary equipment in order to keep abreast with the changing trends in the industry.

Mr Chairperson, conservation of biological resources and equitable sharing of benefits from utilisation is important for the development of the country. For this reason, the ministry will commence reviewing the National Biodiversity Strategy and Action Plan (NBSAP) in order to align it with the new Convention on the Biological Diversity Strategic Plan adopted during the Tenth Session of the Conference of Parties held in Nagoya, Japan, in 2010. The NBSAP was developed by the Government in 1999 as a policy framework to promote the conservation, management and sustainable use of the country’s biological resources and equitable sharing of benefits from the utilisation of these resources that include wildlife, forests, land, water and fisheries.

The ministry will also initiate the development of a National Wetlands Policy to provide a framework for the sustainable management of Zambia’s wetlands and strengthen the institutional co-ordination of wetlands management.

Mr Chairperson, the following will be my ministry’s core areas of focus with regard to the forestry sector:

(i) agro-forestry, reforestation and afforestation – in order to promote the effective management of forestry and wildlife resources to ensure sustainable utilisation and contribution to rural poverty alleviation, the ministry will continue with the development of nurseries for exotic trees, tree planting and forest protection to allow natural regeneration. The programme will result in increased forest cover and wood-lot for both domestic and industrial use;

(ii) forest protection and management to reduce deforestation – the ministry will enhance effective monitoring and regulation to reduce illegal activities such as unauthorised charcoal production and indiscriminate cutting of trees; and

(iii) forest research and information management systems – in order to manage the challenges emerging from climate change, the ministry will initiate quality research to identify the resilience of each tree species.

Sir, in order to promote sustainable conservation and management of wildlife, the ministry will strengthen law enforcement activities and improve wildlife management-related infrastructure in wildlife protected areas. In addition, the Government has set aside K15 billion in the 2012 National Budget for the capitalisation of ZAWA. The capitalisation will involve, among other things, the procurement of basic road maintenance and construction equipment and operational equipment such as communication radios and firearms, uniforms for field staff, automation of revenue collection systems, construction of the Lusaka Park loop-roads and upgrading of the licensing system.

Mr Chairperson, I am confident that with the support of all the stakeholders, the mining and natural resources sector will continue to grow and contribute to making Zambia a better place for all in 2012 and beyond.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate this afternoon. I want to narrow down my debate to one item, particularly ZAWA. Last year, this authority actually vaccinated my constituency with a terrible vaccine of poverty. It went round my constituency intimidating people by telling them that they should move out of the western part of Dundumwezi.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Nkandazovu left Kariba around 1958 to pave way for the construction of the Kariba Dam. Most of these people were settled in Chiefs Siachitema, Chikanta and Sipatunyana’s areas. A number of these dear friends were settled in Nkandazovu area. However, ZAWA officials told them that they would soon be evacuated to an unknown place. These intimidations have actually raised serious concern in my constituency. To start with, the people of Dundumwezi reduced the number of hectares of the land they cultivate. Others started selling their animals because they were so sure that they were going to be evicted from the area following what happened in Chief Kaindu’s area in Mumbwa …

Mr Muntanga: And in Sichifulo.

Mr Sing’ombe: … and Sichifulo, of course. Sometimes, I tend to wonder whether such issues are receiving …

Mr Muntanga: Say it!

Mr Sing’ombe: … serious attention, especially the one concerning the people of Sichifulo. I expect the hon. Minister to have visited the area by now to appreciate the problems that the people of Sichifulo are going through. Of course, we have been told that the Government is looking into this issue, but the question is, for how long?

Mr Kambwili: Ninety days.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: The hon. Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is actually one of the people who appended their signatures to the petition to help the people of Sichifulo.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: I, therefore, expected him to move at an eagle’s speed in resolving the problems of the people of Sichifulo.

Mr Chairperson, because of the intimidation by ZAWA, the people of Dundumwezi actually stopped contributing to the social and economic growth of the constituency by not constructing permanent houses because they were told that they were going to be removed from the area. Those who were supposed to contribute towards the construction of schools also withdrew their support because they were told that they would also be removed from Dundumwezi. So, you can see how bad the vaccine is. Actually, half of my constituency came to a standstill. Hon. Minister, please, I personally want to know whether this vaccine is going to be countered so that the people of Dundumwezi can be assisted.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, in areas like Nabulangu, which is about 5 km away from the ZAWA camp, at one point, pupils were told to stop going to school.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

Mr Sing’ombe: That is how bad the situation was. I went round to find out what was going on and was told it was ZAWA who had told them to stop going to school. We built a very big basic school at Nahila, but a ZAWA officer told members of staff there that the value of one elephant was equivalent to that of the school and that was too sad for me.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah! Elephant!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, they also told the teachers that they can be redeployed to other places because this place is designated for animals. Please, hon. Minister, we are counting on you. I feel that vaccine is still going round because the people of Sichifulo have not been given alternative land to date. If you do not move in quickly, the people will be in problems. Probably, I just have to thank the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives for delaying the distribution of farm inputs. Maybe, the people of Sichifulo will also benefit somehow if they were told to go back today.
 
Mr Chairperson, that is my major concern. We want the people to be given enough latitude to develop themselves and develop the area by giving them hope that ZAWA people will stop intimidating them.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Thank you, Sir.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources; a new ministry which is headed by my friend who is a mining engineer and expert in mining matters, having served as Chief Executive of a mining company, …

Mr Muntanga: Maamba Collieries!

Mr Kakoma: … and having a wealth of experience in your Committee on Economic Affairs which studied the mining sector in detail. However, I am surprised that, today, as he comes to give a policy statement on mining, he is dressed like a Chinese.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: I am wondering why he is dressed like Mao Tse Tung.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Maybe, he is having difficulties dealing with the Chinese in the mining sector.

Hon. Government Member: It is fashionable. It is not Chinese.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, in this Parliament, especially in the last Parliament, the hon. Member who is debating now was known as a sheikh, meaning somebody who has wealth in oil or mining. However, as I debate now, I am a sheikh without money generated from oil ...

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … because, in this country, we have made it very difficult to quickly explore and mine oil. Zambia started looking at these opportunities in oil mining at the same time as Uganda, but Uganda is mining oil and exports it while Zambia is still talking about oil exploration in 2012. I heard from the hon. Minister that some companies will start exploring oil in 2012. That is not showing the seriousness that should be attached to this wealth that we are sitting on. As a matter of fact, the Government reserved itself the best block in terms of oil potential in the North-Western Province and that is the Kayombo Oil Block in Kabompo because it had the biggest potential for oil. To date, the Government has not moved an inch to explore further and develop that oil mine in Kabompo. In fact, probably the private investors that bought other oil blocks have even done better than the Government itself.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, this Government, which is struggling to raise money for a country that is in a hurry to develop, does not show the importance that should be attached to this sector.

Mr Chairperson, what is worrying and shocking is that this same Government that has failed to develop its own oil block in Kabompo is trying to make manoeuvres by acquiring shares in the private-owned oil exploration and mining companies owned by Zambians. Why should the Government buy shares in a private-owned Zambian company when it has failed to develop its oil block and when it had passed an Act of Parliament to create a State-owned company called Zambia Oil Corporation which, to date, it has failed to operationalise.

Mr Muntanga: It is true.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, we want Zambians to benefit not only from the oil mining companies that were supposed to be explored and mined, but also from the other mining activities that are related to copper and other metals. In the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2008, a provision was made to create a fund to benefit the local people and Hon. Mwenya Musenge was in the forefront of trying to push for that fund and he had all the formulas of how that was going to be done. Hon. Simuusa was also aware about that fund that has not been operationalised to date. We hope that him being in the chair, he will be able to take this issue to Cabinet or whoever is putting stumbling blocks, to operationalise this fund so that people living in mineral-rich areas benefit from the resources in those areas.

Mr Chairperson, we are talking about the North-Western Province being richer than the Copperbelt in terms of mineral wealth but, when you go to the North-Western Province, it is a sorry sight.

Mr Muntanga: Sorry.

Mr Kakoma: The mines are not contributing anything to the development of the North-Western Province. If anything, they are only damaging the little infrastructure that is there such as roads …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … that were constructed using taxpayer’s money. The mines are refusing to contribute to the construction of those roads. they are not being made to contribute through this fund, and yet they are now the ones that are damaging the roads when they are making super profits on the international market.

Mr Muntanga: That is bad.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, after they have made those super profits, I am very disappointed that the PF Government has started siding with the mining investors even over things that are simple and straightforward such as windfall tax.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and I, including other hon. Members of Parliament, conducted a tour of the Copperbelt Province and other mines and we were told by the management of those mines that they were willing to pay windfall tax. The problem is with the Government. Just as they resisted the mineral royalty tax, this time when it has been enforced, they came to tell your Expanded Committee on Estimates that they are very happy with the mineral royalty tax and are willing to pay. That is what will happen when we reintroduce the windfall tax. We will impose it on them.

Mr Chairperson, we were informed that when they were buying the mines, in their estimates, their break-even point was between US$2,500 and US$3,000 per tonne. This means that they made profits and are still making profits even now when the copper price is at US$7,700 per tonne. This means that they are making big profits.

Mr Chairperson, in my estimation, even if we doubled the break-even point from US$2,500 to US$5,000 per tonne, and take into account their arguments that the costs are rising, they will still be able to make a profit. An additional US$2,000 or US$3,000 above that trigger point can still be taxed as windfall which will make this country gain a lot from the mines.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I have just come from Ghana, a country which had a wasting asset, gold. Ghana used to be called the ‘Gold Coast’. Now, there is no more gold. It has been mined and gone to develop capital cities in Europe. This is what will happen to Zambia. The copper is going to finish.

In the North-Western Province, we used to have mines such as Kalengwa Mine. People are fighting over Kalengwa Mine whose resources are almost finished. The copper is gone and all they are trying to protect are jobs. They are protecting the current jobs that are not even giving them enough money.

Mr Chairperson, even if one wants to protect jobs in the mines, when copper finishes, the mine will close and jobs will be lost. Therefore, there will be nothing to protect.

Mr Chairperson, all they need to do is to pay windfall tax. If you do not want to use it now, you can do what other countries are doing. They have created an Endowment Fund. This is where excess income from the mining sector or from any other resource that is wasting in nature is invested for the future generations. In future, our children and their children should look at that and say that in Zambia, we used to have copper because in their generation, there will be nothing to look at. However, if we continue in that manner, then we are not being realistic and are not investing for the generations to come. We are just concerned about our current gains, which is not right.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at the contributions of the various sectors to the National Treasury, you can see that the Government is still punishing the poor people by making them contribute more money to the Treasury. The workers are contributing, even to the 2012 Budget, more than K4 trillion, and yet the richer people in our country own the mines. In spite of the increase in the mineral royalty tax, the mining houses will only contribute K1.8 trillion to the National Treasury. Why should workers contribute four times what the rich people are earning in Zambia? That is not right.

Mr Chairperson, we have gone further to give these mines many incentives which are unnecessary. For example, we are talking about giving them a capital allowance of 100 per cent. What that means is that all their capital expenses will be written off against their profits.

Mr Chairperson, what is happening now is that when these mines are about to come into a tax paying position, they organise with their parent companies to supply them with equipment which is over priced, and this is what we call international transfer pricing. They will then over invoice that equipment which they will write off against the profits. Eventually, the mines will never make or declare profits which you are going to tax. Each time they are about to pay tax, they will embark on new projects such as a refinery which is in millions of dollars and the cost of that refinery will be written off against profits for many years to come. The mines will never pay any tax. At what stage are the Zambians going to benefit from their own wealth?

Mr Chairperson, these mining companies are sophisticated. Through their parent companies, they are able to over invoice the machinery they are supplying to Zambia whose price will be written off against their profits. Their parent companies do not buy the copper at the London Metal Exchange price because they buy it locally and at a cheaper price and then resell it on the London Metal Exchange at a higher price. In the meantime, we will be declaring losses, which is not fair to the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to make one point, as I have only one minute, unless the Chairperson gives me another ten minutes.

Hon. UPND Members: Continue!

Mr Kakoma: Zambians were looking forward to benefiting from the mining sector. Even when privatisation started, they hoped that they would benefit from the mining sector. Therefore, the best way they can benefit from the sector is to own shares in the mining companies.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: So far, the Government has been allowing foreign investors to buy all the mines and the Zambians have not benefited. The best that can be done is for the Government to force all these mining companies to float their shares on the Lusaka Stock Exchange so that everybody can have an opportunity to buy shares in the mining companies. That is the only way we can also own mines in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me permission to debate this very important Vote.

In supporting the Vote on the Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources, there are a few issues that have arisen from the hon. Minister’s policy statement that I would like to comment on.

I would like to comment on our natural resources, having earlier posed questions on issues regarding people who are in game management areas. In my constituency, there are almost 5,000 Zambians living in Game Management Area No. 14. These are the people who were removed from Dundumwezi and Chief Kaindu. They are now in this game management area and some have moved even further into forestry areas. What is happening? There is charcoal burning and they also need to till the land. These are hardworking people but, then, they cannot improve their livelihood because of the temporary nature of their stay.

I would like the hon. Minister to give us a road map on this matter because these are Zambians, but they are being denied the services that they require, and yet these services are provided in other parts of the country. There are makeshift schools and hardly any health services. Of course, there are outreach programmes, but I fear that if we do not have standard health care as is the case elsewhere, when there is an outbreak of disease due to the low immunisation coverage, then all the gains we have made will be eroded.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the issue of charcoal burning, when you drive on our main roads, you will be very happy to see the forests along the roads. However, just go inside for a distance of between 2 km or 3 km, believe you me; the amount of destruction is gross. Therefore, I wanted to hear from the hon. Minister what his target of the hectarage of the nursery that is being developed is. Has he put aside or has he in mind any hectarage that we, Parliamentarians, can target as we take our leadership in ensuring that we plant trees around our schools and hospitals in those farms? Let us have an indication of the targets.

Mr Chairperson, another point I would like to raise as regards natural resources is mining. I was happy to hear that there are plans to assist the small-scale miners. It is very good to hear that thousands of people will be employed in the huge mines, but we should learn from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). There are small-scale miners who have been struggling with spades, shovels and other tools. They cannot get anywhere. Can the Geological Survey Department not assist them with information on the quantity of the mineral they want to mine in the various localities? Is it not possible for the Government to operationalise the fund that my colleague mentioned by assisting the small-scale miners with equipment? Is it not possible to avail them with equipment which could be hired? I am sure if this was done, wealth would be spread, particularly from the mineral resources that are abundant in our country.

Mr Chairperson, Mumbwa is one of the districts that are rich in minerals. The first copper mine was in Mumbwa. Iron ore used to be mined and transported on wagons to the then Broken Hill, now Kabwe, for processing. In fact, I am happy to learn that this is now a national heritage. Of course, there are other minerals. There is also gold. How does a small-scale miner exploit minerals without the necessary information? It is difficult. Therefore, I urge the Government to operationalise the fund and equipment and make sure that the small-scale miners are organised.

With regard to the licensing, Mr Chairperson, it is chaotic. I am glad the hon. Minister mentioned it. I look forward to a renewed licensing regime, especially for small-scale miners.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of natural resources where people shift from place to place, this ministry should link up with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock so that it works properly. Many people have settled on farms for many years, for example, in Mazabuka, Kalomo and in other areas. They do not migrate.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Why, then, should the people in Mumbwa migrate after five years? There must be something wrong. It is high time the Government imparted in the people the knowledge that soil lasts forever and ever. Therefore, sustainable development can only occur by investing in land.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: I ask the hon. Minister to link up with other line ministries that deal with land.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to talk about the linkages of natural resources with water. When water bodies are developed as part of natural resources, settlements will develop in no time and poverty will be reduced. Our people are hard working, but I do not think we have done enough to empower them in these areas so that they too can improve their living standards.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of developments and investments in mining, again, linkages and co-ordination is important. If the exploration of iron ore, which will probably be the second largest iron ore mine in Africa is realised,  perhaps, the private-public-partnership (PPP) should be involved to plan and transport iron ore. The cheapest means is by railway. I hope there are plans to have a railway line from Lusaka to Mumbwa, Mumbwa to Kasempa and from Kasempa to Solwezi on to Angola. It is not good to talk about these issues when the mine is about to open. It is better to plan in advance using the PPP.

Mr Chairperson, with these remarks, I support this Vote and urge the ministry to look into the issues that I have pointed out as a matter of urgency because the people need services.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me this opportunity to contribute to debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Member for Zambezi West noted, the ministry is led by a professional. Therefore, I know that it will be taken to greater heights under his leadership.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: However, Mr Chairperson, he has to be a very good student when it comes to wildlife and forestry.

Mr Chairperson, it is agreed that mining is the driver of our national economy. Why do I say so? It is because it accounts for over 80 per cent of our foreign exchange earnings. In turn, it impacts on the performance of our kwacha in relation to other currencies. It is agreed that it will continue to be the driver of our economy in the foreseeable future. It is also agreed that mining is also best driven by the private sector. We saw that when the mines were nationalised, production declined from 750,000 tonnes to 250,000 tonnes in 2000. With privatisation, the production level has been increasing. As the hon. Minister said, it is expected to reach an 800,000 tonne high this year. What are the implications of privatising the industry? We opened up the industry to new players such as the Swiss operating the Mopani Copper Mines, the Chinese running the China Non-ferrous Metals Corporation (CNMC), the Indians running the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), the Brazilians with Konnoco Zambia Ltd, the Australians in the First Quantum Minerals Limited and the former Lumwana Copper Mine, which has been taken over by the Canadians. There are implications that these new players bring into Zambia their home culture. It is the Government’s responsibility to introduce the new players to Zambia’s culture pertaining to mining practices.
 
However, of concern is the low funding to the ministry. This has been the case over the years. It has always been at the bottom rung of the ladder of funding of Government institutions. There is an increase this year, but I think it is primarily due to the realignment of the ministries.

With privatisation, Mr Chairperson, we need increased funding to monitor operations, be they mining, exploration or metallurgical. For example, there has been an increase of K10 million in the allocation for the Mines Safety Department. This is nothing. We have been lamenting the high number of accidents occurring in the mines and the poor working conditions that the workers are being subjected to in this country. How can the Mines Safety Department perform to the expected standard when it is poorly funded? The money to be used to inspect small-scale mines has been reduced by K23.3 million, and yet this is a sector which is expected to create more jobs for the people. As we have more people engaged in small-scale mining, the reduction of this allocation means the safety standards will be compromised. The argument that funding to this ministry does not need to be big because the mines are now in private hands is ill-conceived. Therefore, I urge the Government to allocate more money to the ministry so that it undertakes its oversight role over these mining operations comprehensively.

Mr Chairperson, may I talk about one unit that is under the ministry, which is the Cadastral Unit. We boast that we have a computerised system that is expected to enhance efficiency, transparency, provide security of tenure and other positive aspects. However, the question that begs an answer is whether a computer, on its own, will ensure the aforesaid characteristics or qualities. The answer is a big ‘no’. There is a human resource element that has to be brought into the equation. We need the human resource to operationalise the Cadastral System. For example, we have had cases, at that unit, where some mining rights were being hived off and granted illegally to other investors. So, where is the security of tenure?

Hon. Member: By yourself.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, there is a need to build  capacity in the human resource of this unit if we are to see security of tenure.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: Zayelo, ikalafye tondolo.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister will realise for himself very soon, he will be attending investment forums, be it indaba in South Africa, Australia, China, Canada, London, Germany or Turkey. However, when investors come to Zambia, after you have marketed the country well, they have no land to have a mining right. That is where you need to closely supervise the Cadastral Unit to ensure that when we have attracted investors, they will have areas where they can invest.

Mr Chairperson, another suggestion is that we consider having packages that can be sold to investors. Today’s investors would like to have full data on any mineral resource that may be in the country. What I mean by that is that they will need information on the reserves, the grades and formations, as they have no time to carry out full-scale exploration activities. As they come into the country and are sold those packages, they go straight into the development of the mine.

Mr Chairperson, on natural resources, I would like to briefly touch on ZAWA.

Hon. Opposition Member: Quality!

Mr M. B. Mwale: ZAWA is doing a commendable job in this country.

Hon. Member: No!

Mr M. B. Mwale: I come from Malambo, not Marabo, …

Laughter

Mr B. M. Mwale: … where they are doing a commendable job of protecting our wildlife. Our concern, however, is on the village scouts. They go for months without allowances, which results in demoralisation.

Sir, I would also like to appeal that the ministry develops the land use plans speedily so that we have clear areas for human settlement, business development and farming.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Free advice, iya pambale.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor. As we have heard from the policy debate by the hon. Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, the ministry is in safe and capable hands.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Waumfwa, Mwale?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, I am particularly interested in one area under this ministry, and that is the regeneration and development of exotic forests or plantations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, our first Republican President, …

Hon. Member: Gob bless him.

Mr Kazabu: … established the exotic trees plantations under an organisation called the Zambia Forests and Forestry Industrial Corporation (ZAFFICO). Our founding father did so in order to create business and job opportunities for Zambians.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Apapene?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, I happen to be closely associated with many of our people.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I apologise for disturbing my brother. However, is he in order to tell the House that the first Republican President introduced ZAFFICO when, in actual fact, it was under the Industrial Plantations? ZAFFICO only came afterwards to utilise those plantations. Is he in order not to put the record straight by not saying that the people involved in planting the trees were Industrial Plantations?

The Deputy Chairperson: My ruling is that the hon. Member on the Floor may continue, but take that point of order into account.

Mr Kazabu: I thank you, Mr Chairperson. Really, it is a case of terminologies.

Laughter

Mr Kazabu: What he is referring to is the forerunner organisation of what is now known as ZAFFICO. However, the point I am making is that through the establishment of the exotic tree plantations under ZAFFICO, many of our people have had the opportunity to run some small-scale businesses and, by so doing, contribute to the creation of jobs.

Mr Chairperson, I want to bring to the attention of the House the fact that, as much as that was the underlying thinking of our founding father and the Government that he led, what is happening, today, is totally the opposite. Those ZAFFICO Plantations that have pine trees, from which you make your pine timber, are mostly benefiting foreigners or companies that are owned by foreigners. Our own people who run small-scale sawmills are being denied the opportunity to grow in business because …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was making the point that the exotic plantations on the Copperbelt were established to benefit our people, not anybody else.

Sir, what is happening today is totally different from the original intentions of the Government then because, in the sawmilling industry, today, there are two types of business people. These are the large-scale and the small-scale timber producers. The majority of our people are found in the small-scale category.

Mr Chairperson, in order to run a small-scale sawmill, you require a minimum of 150 cubic metres of round wood, as it is called. However, the reality on the ground – and I am glad that the hon. Minister is here to hear this, is that the company that manages these plantations has now reduced the allocations to small-scale producers from a reasonable minimum of 150 cubic metres to 50 cubic metres and, in some cases, 35 cubic metres.

Sir, it is impossible to run a sawmill on an allocation of 50 cubic metres of round wood. That will only take you one week. So, if you run out of the raw material in one week, what happens during the next weeks? Clearly, that is a tragedy.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to know why foreign-owned companies are given allocations of 1000 cubic metres or more per month while our people are subjected to meagre allocations. This issue pierces my heart and I hope that my dear brother, the hon. Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, will intervene meaningfully so that people who run small-scale sawmills benefit from that which belongs to them.

Sir, we have a problem with regard to the exotic plantations and it is, to some degree, a result of politics. Some people have now encroached on those plantations, resulting in fires regularly burning the tress, which further results in stunted growth. Therefore, there are conflicts between people who are looking for land on which to settle and ZAFFICO which runs the plantations.

Mr Chairperson, I want to submit to this hon. House that there is an urgent need to protect those plantations. If we do not, sooner or later, we will go back to the days when we used pine timber from Swaziland to build houses. Obviously, if that was to happen again, the cost of building would shoot up.

Sir, I would also like to inform the hon. Minister of Mines and Natural Resources that, because of too many investors in the sawmilling industry, the plantations are depleting at a fast rate. Sooner or later, unless we assist ZAFFICO with substantial amounts of money for them to carry out meaningful re-planting programmes, we will go back to the past, and I think that will be a tragedy.

Mr Chairperson, let me move on to the issue of the mines. Most of us, here, will remember that during the era of the UNIP Government, we had a wonderful policy in place called Zambianisation. This policy was put in place to ensure that our indigenous people occupied critical positions in management and other areas. Today, we have opened the gate too wide. The position at the moment is that most of the jobs that are supposed to be held by our people are held by foreigners who have been brought in by the owners of the mining houses.

 Mr Chairperson, I recall from my days of regular employment that any investor was only allowed to bring less than five expatriates. I do not know what has happened to the policy. I would like to suggest that in the interest of our people, after all our commitment and loyalty should be to our people, we revive that policy because it was well-intended. We cannot continue to have our people thrown out on the streets while those coming from elsewhere get the jobs. They are enjoying themselves whilst each day that breaks brings misery to our people. These are serious matters. Knowing that the capable hon. Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has been listening very attentively, I would like to earnestly request that we do that which is good for our people.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to wind up debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources.

Sir, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed positively to this debate. I sincerely thank them for supporting my Vote.

Mr Chairperson, in addressing some of the issues raised, I will start with Hon. Sing’ombe regarding Sichifulo. As a Government, we are actually very concerned with the issue of Sichifulo and all the conflicts in game management areas. In the particular case of Sichifulo, you will be interested to know that – indeed, I acknowledge that I was one of those who signed that petition – we have taken the issue so seriously that it is not only being handled at the ministry level but also by His Honour the Vice-President. Actually, as a Government, we have already decided what to do in that area. The only challenge is how we shall implement what we have agreed upon.

Mr Chairperson,  at the moment, there is a team of people from the Vice-President’s Office and ZAWA which is in Sichifulo conducting a head count so that it can help us know how many people are in that area. After that, obviously, other stakeholders such as the chiefs will be consulted so that we can quickly find a way of resettling the people in the right way. Therefore, the main challenge is to find a way of implementing the plan which will be agreed upon by all the concerned parties.  As the PF Government, we are very concerned about that issue. We are working very hard to sort it out. We are also doing the same for other game management areas.

Mr Chairperson, the conflicts which are arising in the area as a result of people being displaced, including those in Hon. Kaindu’s area, which Hon. Dr Chituwo mentioned,  are also receiving very active attention from the Government. I also head clearly the issue which was mentioned by Hon. Dr Chituwo regarding reforestation. My biggest concern is that the rate of deforestation is actually currently higher than the rate of reforestation. It also has to be noted that the demand for timber and wood products in Zambia is actually growing. Therefore, our biggest challenge is coming up with a way of accelerating the reforestation rate. We just do not want to only replenish our forests, but also ensure that we actually meet the growing demand for wood products. I remember talking to my staff about this issue. We will also need your help in sorting out the problems affecting our forests. In terms of plans, we have increased the budget for all our nurseries and replanting activities. I will give you the total number of hectares that we want our forests to be. All this is part of our plans.

Sir, with regard to tree planting, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament for assistance. Last year, there was a plan to give 500 trees to each hon. Member of Parliament to be planted in their constituencies. The report which I have been given regarding that initiative is not encouraging. I am told that the exercise was not carried out successfully. It is either the trees were not given out or collected as expected. This year, the exercise is being repeated. The tree planting season will be kicked off on 15th December, 2011. I, therefore, expect hon. Members of Parliament to assist us to successfully carry out this exercise. They should collect the trees and plant them in their constituencies. I am expecting the full co-operation of all the hon. Members of Parliament when we begin conducting this exercise.

Sir, Hon. Kakoma, my very good friend who is not here to listen to my response to a concern which he raised, is well dressed in an English suit. I am wondering what relationship he has with the English for him to wear an English suit. The problem we have in our country is that we dress fashionably, but not in our national attire. What I am wearing is actually Asian style, not specifically Chinese, but it looks very smart.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: Yes, generally, Asian culture is a bit different from the common English culture that all of us here are so used to.

The Deputy Chairperson: May you wind up.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, regarding oil exploration, I can report that we have allocated the necessary blocks for oil exploration. We have put aside K200 million for the establishment of the Zambia National Oil Exploration Company (ZNOEC) which will enable us, as Government, to start exploration activities. Very shortly, you will see a lot of exploration in the Government blocks. We are also encouraging the private investors to start the oil exploration activities.

Sir, Hon. Kakoma, who is the Chairperson of the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour, talked about windfall tax. Indeed, that committee of which I was a member, has done a lot of work regarding windfall tax. At the expense of repeating myself, I will say that I did state earlier on that the price of copper was very high at the time we were calling for the implementation of windfall tax. It was in the range of US$10,000 per tonne. This is a price which had never been reached in history. At that time, I was one of the people who argued that the best way for the country to have benefited fully from the high mineral prices was through the windfall tax because that wave would not last forever. I knew that the price would eventually start coming down. That was the best time to implement windfall tax. At that time, we had problems with the previous regime for introducing it and backtracking. At the moment, you are very aware that the price has gone down. It is not at US$7,700 per tonne like was said by other hon. Members. It is at US$7,400 and is going downwards. This means that we have missed the wave on which we can collect windfall tax. Since we are now at another level, we have to find another way of collecting tax on our minerals. The best and most simple way of collecting tax on our minerals currently is through mineral royalty tax. Using this method, you forget about the price and only concentrate on the production side of things. Currently, the production is going up. Thus, this is the best way to collect tax on our minerals at the moment. Your calculations will be based on the total production, its value and the mineral royalty tax which is at 6 per cent, kwasila. There will be no complications and quarrels.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Sir, for the information of the people on your left, we have not said that we have stopped addressing the people’s concerns regarding the mining sector. What we have promised, as the PF Government, is that we shall be reviewing the mining tax regime continuously. Hon. Kakoma said that the Government would collect K1.8 trillion as mineral royalty tax and K4 trillion as the total Pay-As-You-Earn(PAYE), but forgot to mention that the Government would also collect money from the mining companies through corporate tax and other taxes. I think it would be good to look at issues holistically. As the PF Government, we said we are going to be smart in the way we do things. We will respond to what is obtaining in the industry and in the world’s economy accordingly. At the right time, people will see that we are actually responding correctly to issues as they arise.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank Hon. M. B. Mwale for his support. Indeed, I agree with him that mining is the backbone of this nation. My ministry needs sufficient funds for it to do things properly. That is the biggest challenge my ministry is faced with. The capacity to fully supervise the industry requires resources, skills and people. Insufficient funding is the biggest challenge I found at the ministry.  Obviously, in consultation with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we will see how we can fund the ministry better so that we can rise up to the challenge of supervising the mining industry properly.

Sir, I have taken note of the comments by Hon. Kazabu. ZAFFICO is faced with the challenge of properly allocating quota to saw millers. I have been assured that this issue is being looked into seriously so that the right allocation can go to the right people.

Mr Chairperson, I think I would take too much time if I was to try and respond to all the issues. Since we shall continue to interact, I shall have other opportunities to respond to other concerns.

Mr Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members for their contributions and for supporting the allocation for my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/02 – (Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources – Geological Survey Department – K12,164,312,196).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1000, Activity 001 – Salaries Div 1 – K749,368,468 and Activity 003 – Salaries Div III – K715,773,649. There is a reduction in the provisions for next year. What has caused this reduction? 

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Natural Resources (Mr Musukwa): Mr Chairperson, the provision in Activity 001 – Salaries Div 1 – K749,368,468 will cater for salaries for officers in the division. The reduction is due to the reduced number of officers in this division.

Mr Chairperson, the provision in Activity 003 – Salaries Div III – K715,773,649 will cater for salaries for officers in Division III. The decrease is due to the reduced number of officers in the division.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 14/06 – (Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources – Forestry Department – K26,166,885,195).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1042, Activity 007 – Climate Change Mitigation and Adaptation Initiatives – Nil, Activity 008 – Support to Joint Forest Management and Activity 009 – Establishment of Community Tree Seeding Nurseries – Nil. All the activities under this programme have no provisions for next year. Why is it so?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1042, Activity 007 – Climate Change Mitigation and Adaptation Initiatives – Nil, Activity 008 – Support to Joint Forest Management and Activity 009 – Establishment of Community Tree Seeding Nurseries – Nil,  the provisions in question have been moved to another Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1002, Activity 023 – National Tree Planting – K 130,000,000. I am worried that the figure under this activity has remained static, whereas we are supposed to be working towards solving the problem of global warming through the planting of more trees.

Mr Simuusa:  Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1002, Activity 023 – National Tree Planting – K 130,000,000, this is the exercise which I referred to earlier on through which we are trying to encourage tree planting. When looking at the allocation for that exercise, you have to bear in mind the fact that this is the first Budget we are presenting after taking over from the MMD. We have to carry on implementing a number of programmes at the point at which the MMD left them. Therefore, for now, the provision for this activity will not vary from what it was under the previous regime. However, as we move forward, you will see this figure improve. As I said earlier, we do recognise the need for us to increase our efforts as regards tree planting.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1151, Activity 063 – Raising of Tree Seedlings – Nil.  Why is there no budget provision for 2012?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1151, Activity 063 – Raising of Tree Seedlings – Nil, that is a very technical activity which we shall let ZAFFICO handle. We shall let ZAFFICO handle some of the activities which used to be handled by the Government under the previous regime.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/07 – (Ministry of Mines and Natural Resources – Zambia Forestry College – K9,317,940,163).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1142, Activity 006 – Infrastructure Maintenance – Nil. There was a provision of K80,000,000 this year, but there is no provision for next year. Does it mean that there will be no maintenance of infrastructure?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1142, Activity 006 – Infrastructure Maintenance – Nil, this activity has been realigned to Programme 1001, Activity 058. So, it is catered for.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1008, Activity 027 – HIV/AIDS Campaigns – Nil. Sir, my concern is that whilst there was K35,000,000 in the 2011 Budget for HIV/AIDS campaigns, there is no such funding in the 2012 Budget. Further, on Programme 1008, Activity 015 – Gender and Environment Meetings – Nil, I have noticed that there is still no funding for gender and environment meetings? Why is it so?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1008, Activity 027 – HIV/AIDS Campaigns – Nil and Programme 1008, Activity 015 – Gender and Environment Meetings – Nil, there is no provision because the activities will be handled centrally at the ministry headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1138, Activity 003 – Beehive Production – Nil. Last year, there was something allocated to this activity but, for next year, the activity for promoting beehive production has not been funded. May I know why? On the same page, Programme 1213, Activity 002 – Weather Observation and Reporting – Nil, is also not catered for. May I know why?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1138, Activity 003 – Beehive Production – Nil, there is no provision for the beehive production because the activity was completed in 2011.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: What about Programme 1213, Activity 002 – Weather Observation and Reporting?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1213, Activity 002 – Weather Observation and Reporting – Nil was also completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1138, Activity 002 – Animal Stocking and Livestone Management – K63,073,037, may I know what this activity is all about, particularly the second part which says “Livestone Management”?

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Livestock!

The Minister of Mines and Natural Resources (Mr Simuusa): Mr Chairperson, I will check the spelling. I think it should read “Livestock”. This provision will cater for the purchase of weaners and barbed wire for paddocks, veterinary materials and feed stocks for restocking of the beef section. The increase is meant to cover transportation costs and additional paddock costs for the livestock.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 14/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – Headquarters – K254,196,402,890).

The Minister of Justice (Mr S. S. Zulu): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to deliver a policy statement on the 2012 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Judiciary. Programmes and activities for the Judiciary are guided by the mission statement which is:

“To provide effective and efficient administration of justice accessible to all people in Zambia through impartial and timely adjudication without fear or favour.”

Hon. Members of this august House already know the core functions of the Judiciary that include the following:

(i) administer justice through resolving disputes between individuals, individuals and private companies and/or between the State and individuals;

(ii) interpret the Constitution and the Laws of Zambia;

(iii) promote the rule of law and contribute to the maintenance of order in society;

(iv) safeguard the Constitution and uphold democratic principles; and

(v) protect human rights of individuals and groups.

These functions are exerted through the existing court infrastructure which includes the Supreme Court, High Court, Industrial Relations Court, Subordinate Court, Small Claims Court and the Local courts.

Mr Chairperson, with available resources for 2011, the Supreme Court planned to have eight sessions in Lusaka, Kabwe and Ndola. The High Court planned to have seventy sessions covering all provincial capitals and Kitwe. So far, the sessions are on schedule. The House may wish to know that the sessions for the Supreme Court and the High Court are gazetted. The Judiciary, therefore, endeavours to fulfil their gazetted legal mandate.

Sir, in the policy speech for the 2010 Budget, my predecessor informed this House that the Small Claims Court he had earlier launched was operational in Lusaka and Ndola. The House may wish to know that the Small Claims Court, so far, has performed to expectation and improved accessibility of justice to all the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, construction of court infrastructure still remains a priority. For 2012, about K40 billion has been refinanced for the construction of, at least, the High Courts in the Northern and Eastern provinces as well as initiating  the construction of Subordinate Courts at Chirundu and Chama.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to report on the dream project for the Judiciary, which is the computerisation of the court operations. In its continued effort to improve justice delivery, the Judiciary, with technical and financial assistance from the Investment Climate Facility for Africa, has embarked on the computerisation of court operations. My predecessor, in a similar address to this House, in February, 2009, reported on the first phase of this project.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform hon. Members of Parliament that the second part of this project is a roll-out phase. During the financial year ending 31st December, 2011, the project has undertaken the following activities:

(i) digitalisation of hardcopy court case records – a total of 7,602 case records have been scanned at Lusaka High Court into rim software total records information management software;

(ii) refurbishment of the court rooms in Lusaka – a few Lusaka High Courtrooms have been refurbished with wide area network, and equipment installed. The refurbishment of the Supreme Court Room is almost complete;

(iii) training real-time court reporters – twenty university graduates were recruited by the Judiciary and fifteen are currently undergoing training as real-time court reporters. The remaining five will commence their training in the financial year ending 2012;

(iv) training of Supreme Court and High Court Judges and Subordinate Court Magistrates –  all the Supreme Court and High Court Judges have been trained in general computer appreciation in trim while only Lusaka-based professional magistrates have been trained. The remaining magistrates will be trained as the project is rolled out to the Industrial Relations Courts (IRC) in Lusaka and Kitwe and Ndola on the Copperbelt;

(v) procurement of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) equipment and software – procurement of equipment and software for the automation of the registries and courtrooms in Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe has been done and the installation has started; and

(vi) training of lawyers based in Lusaka – a training workshop on the automation of the Judiciary for Lusaka-based lawyers was held at the Supreme Court Building and 400 lawyers attended.

Mr Chairperson, the activities to be carried out during the financial year ending 2012 are:

(i) scanning of existing hardcopy court records in Ndola and Kitwe;

(ii) end-user training in trim on the Copperbelt;

(iii) training of lawyers based on the Copperbelt;

(iv) training of Copperbelt-based Subordinate Court Magistrates and support staff;

(v) installation of the wide area network linking the courts in Ndola, Kitwe and Lusaka subordinate to the headquarters;

(vi) installation of automated communication information monitors in all the ten court rooms;

(vii) raising awareness in the private sector – this will be done through radio and television campaigns, leaflets and banners.

(viii) implementation of the e-library;

(ix) sending twenty real-time court reporters to the International Courts Tribunal in Luanda and Arusha, Tanzania, on attachment for one month;

(x) installation of information kiosks in all the major registries i.e. Ndola, Kitwe and Lusaka; and

(xi) refurbishment of the IRC in Lusaka, two courtrooms in Ndola and two courtrooms in Kitwe.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude my statement, allow me to mention the obvious that the Judiciary, as one of the three arms of Government, needs the support of each one of us. If we want the Judiciary to deliver on the mission statement of providing effective and efficient administration of justice in the country, we must give it the tools to use. It is against this background that I urge this august House to support the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure of K254,196,402,890 for the Judiciary for 2012.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to make a contribution to the debate on this Vote. I would like to state that I stand here today as a proud hon. Member of Parliament for the reason that in my constituency, after sending a number of reminders to the former Executive about the need to construct two local courts at Chiwanangala and Fube, this long-cherished dream has become a reality at long last.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: I want to say that this is a job well done and that this spirit should continue.

Mr Chairperson, I, however, would like to state that despite the Government having done such a commendable job, I, as hon. Member of Parliament representing the people of Chilubi, was not impressed with the manner in which the contracts for these projects were awarded. What transpired is extremely shameful. The provincial local court officers, together with the provincial administration in Luapula who are running the affairs of the local courts in Chilubi, disappointed me extremely. The tendering procedures were not followed and, in the process, the provincial administration made shortcuts in awarding contracts. Hence, the projects of constructing the two local courts, which I have mentioned, were awarded to an MMD cadre, simply because he was acting provincial Chairperson for the former Ruling Party.

Interruptions

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I would like to put it on record that this kind of behaviour should come to an end in this country. It should not be tolerated. In this regard, …

Mr Chilangwa: Ba Dr Kazonga, muleumfwa.

Mr Chisala: … I would like to stress that it is paramount that this trend, since it is nauseous, is investigated by the Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chisala: The culprit is supposed to be brought to book because we want to see justice prevailing in this country. We should not be running this country on partisan lines.

Interruptions

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I want to state that, in Chilubi, we have only three local courts, and yet the area is vast. In this connection, I request the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that another local court is established at sub-Chief Chitunkubwe’s area …

Laughter

Mr Chisala: … because we have a huge population of about 6,000 in that area. We would not like to see our people walking long distances to go and have their cases heard whenever they have grievances.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to put it on record that we have only two local court messengers in Chilubi who were employed in 2006. To date, they have not yet been put on the payroll. I have been to the Office of the Director of Local Courts on more than three occasions. I have also written more than four letters, but all has been in vain. One wonders whether our colleagues from the provincial office have been visiting the Office of the Director.

Mr Chairperson, I request the hon. Minister of Justice to look into this issue seriously because this kind of injustice, in my opinion, has put these two young men at a disadvantage for too long. Similarly, Chilubi District has no magistrate. The magistrate was transferred from the district to Mansa two years ago and there has been no replacement since. So, it is paramount that a magistrate is employed and sent to Chilubi.

With these remarks I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me this time to discuss the present Vote. Basically, I will talk of local courts in my constituency, which is Lukulu West. From the debater who has just finished talking, although he did not want to mention the name of the contractor who constructed the two local courts, the good name should be ‘MMD Government’. The same Government constructed one local court in my constituency …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear, working Government!

Mr Mutelo: … and the subordinate and magistrate courts were left at slab level in Lukulu.

Mr V. Mwale: They cannot complete the construction.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I beg the current Government to finish the construction of the subordinate court. The magistrate holds his sessions from the Council Chamber.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

Mr Mutelo: So, when the council is sitting, the magistrate’s court does not. That is the scenario in Lukulu. So, we request the Government of the day to complete the construction.

Mr V. Mwale: They cannot.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, in Lukulu West, all the five local courts are closed. The hon. Minister may wish to know that there are no officers. None of the courts is operational at the moment. The only court that is operational has only one clerk. I would also love the Minister to seriously look into this and see to it that all the local courts in Lukulu, and Lukulu West, in particular, are staffed. Otherwise, that situation is encouraging a lot of injustice. When these local courts are in operation and the staff are there, it helps protect the people from crime. There is no police post in Lukulu West, hence the local courts are the only source of security. In the absence of  a police post, …

Mr V. Mwale: Mwamvwa a Zulu.

Mr Mutelo: … the Karavina issue in Lukulu West will continue to be rampant. It is a challenging request, but the hon. Minister will have to look into it. The courts have been helpful and will continue helping if only their problems are attended to.

Mr Chairperson, if local courts are constructed only in Chama and in the Northern Province, it will be a pity because we expect the Government to look at the entire country. I do not know why the local courts have been under-funded. It is like they are not part of the three arms of Government. Maybe, you are concentrating on Judges and magistrates only, forgetting the local court justices. You really forget them. The messengers at the grassroots do a lot of donkey work. So, they deserve the same degree of attention like other civil servants.

With those few remarks, come 2012, we want to see the courts in Lukulu, and Lukulu West, in particular, functioning. Let us see the slab that the MMD left built on through the right tendering procedure to avoid corruption, like the complaint I heard on the other side. Let us hope that no PF cadres will be given the tender.

Hon. Member: They are Zambians.

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: May I end here.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, how I wish that the judiciary could be given full autonomy so that, when we approve this Budget, the money moves from the Treasury to the Judiciary so that the latter does not beg from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who releases the funds as he wishes. This is where the problem is. The money is given when it is available. We want the Treasury to release all the money for the Judiciary so that it is autonomous. We do not want the Judiciary compromised to the level at which it is dictated to by the Executive. All this debate on the Floor of doubting the Judiciary with regard to finances would be unfortunate, especially that the debate from the Front Bench is coming from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Interruptions

    I find it a bit strange when I am debating and I hear …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Just address the Chair. Do not worry about hecklers.

Mr Muntanga:  Mr Chairperson, I want to inform the people debating while seated that the Judiciary needs more funding. The over K250 billion which has been allocated to the Judiciary is not enough.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister in his policy statement talked about the need to build more courts. The previous Government had managed to change the face of the magistrate courts in Lusaka. We have seen a few improvements in the rural areas. I have seen the construction of three local court buildings in my area, including at Bbilili in Dundumwezi which is yet to be completed. The design of the buildings is very good.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, however, we still have small rooms in certain areas that are not worth being referred to as courts. A case in point is the one found in Chief Sipatunyana’s area in my constituency. We were hoping that by this year, the construction of the Bbilili Local Court in Siachitema’s area would be completed. We were also hoping that money was going to be allocated for the construction of local courts in Sipatunyana, Simwatachela and Chikanta’s chiefdoms.

Mr Chairperson, the new designs we are currently using for building local courts is impressive. We need to take the building of courts seriously. We have just supported the building of a subordinate court in Kalomo. I think the hon. Minister of Justice, who was there when the construction works began, should be proud to hear that the building which is located on the roadside looks beautiful. 
.

Mr Kunda, SC., indicated assent.

Mr Muntanga: There is  even a wall fence around it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: I expect the new hon. Minister of Justice, when he visits Kalomo, to go round the areas of the rural chiefs so that he appreciates what we are taking about.

Mr Chairperson, I know that the need to build local courts is not confined to Kalomo alone. For instance, Chief Mwanya of the Eastern Province has no local court.

Mr Mushanga: Chief Mwanja not Mwanya!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: This same problem is also found in the constituency where the Presiding Officer comes from. There is a need to build a local court there as well. I also want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to instill some discipline in local court clerks who regard themselves as judges and, at the same time, money collectors. They instill fear in the local people as they go round the villages.

Mr Chairperson, if someone wants to chase for money which is owed to him/ her in circumstances which may make it a civil case, he simply approaches a local court clerk who prepares a demand notice without the matter being taken to court. This is a serious form of harassment because there is no court case which takes place, but a notice is still prepared by the court clerk asking the villager to pay the debt. The hon. Minister should look into this issue seriously.

The other unit which you need to look at is the Sheriff’s Office. It seems that people from the Sheriff’s Office think that they have the power to determine what is lawful. The only thing we accept is that there can be bailiffs who are supposed to move from the Sheriff’s Office to the place where they are supposed to get things. If they realise that there is no one defending you, they will swindle you out of your money. If you are to get them from Lusaka to Kalomo, they will ask you to pay them K60 million for transport. The sad thing is that they do not want to be questioned and do not even issue receipts after doing the work.

I want the hon. Minister of Justice to know this. I declare interest by sharing an experience I had in Livingstone where someone demanded that I pay K10 million for effecting the sheriff’s order on my property. I went with a lawyer who challenged how they arrived at K10 million. I was shocked to find out that the charge of K10 million, which was worked out by this officer in Livingstone turned out to be K600,000. Please, hon. Minister of Justice, let us not have a department of injustice. If the Judiciary has people who have experience in thieving, where shall we run to? If we start doubting the Sheriff’s Department in the Judiciary, where shall we go to lodge our complaints? So many things are happening under your feet, hon. Minister of Justice.

The budget for this ministry is going to be passed, but this is a ministry which should not have queries from the Auditor-General’s Office because they know and understand law. We interpret it but, being human, I think we have admitted unqualified people to the bar. Anyone can walk to the Judiciary and get a job there. That is why there are many cases where the Judiciary is being questioned. Therefore, I implore the hon. Minister of Justice to do the best so that the people of Zambia stop doubting. The Judiciary should not be involved in malpractices. We already have sixty petitions to be looked at.

Mr Kakoma: Seventy-eight now.

Mr Muntanga: Seventy-eight petitions that should be concluded in 100 days.

Hon. Opposition Member: How?

Mr Muntanga: What will happen with the witnesses who will come from all over? Something should be checked. We do not want to have hushed, rushed and hasty decisions. The hon. Minister of Justice, who is a State Counsel and Judge, should look into this issue.  I hope, one day, we shall have a system where the Chief Justice sorts out these things. I hope he is listening. Please, I beg of you, hon. Minister of Justice, to serve the people of Zambia by doing things properly. I want to advise those who are quacks and answering  back while seated because I am talking about serious business.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The word “quack” is unparliamentary.

You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the word “quack” and substitute it with ‘pretended’ lawyers or fake ones.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The word “fake” is also unparliamentary.

You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: We shall then look for another word tomorrow which shall suit the situation going on in the country.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I am grateful that the hon. Minister of Justice is really taking matters seriously. The Judiciary should not be questioned by anybody, but operate above board.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, and proper advice to the hon. Minister of Justice, I wish to thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand here to support the Vote for the Judiciary. In the first place, we should bear in mind that this country, Zambia, is ours, not in brackets, but in reality. It should be so even to the villager.

 If educated people implemented what they were taught, they would have made Zambia a better place.

However, what I have realised is that the current estimates of revenue and expenditure do not favour the local courts. If the hon. Minister of Justice went to Kalomo and visited one of the local courts, I do not know how he would feel.

Hon. Member: How?

Hon. Member: Ebaume, aba.

Mr Miyutu: Firstly, he would fail to locate the structure.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Ebaume, aba!

Mr Miyutu: I am just requesting the hon. Minister …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please let us guide each other. There is too much loud consultation emanating from my right. It is advisable that as the Executive, you listen attentively because you will be given the opportunity to respond later. I hope that is a timely warning. The noise is coming from my right.

The hon. Member may proceed.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, this shows that the distribution of resources in this country is biased in favour of the urban areas.

Hon. Member: Ndiye kuliba kawalala.

Mr Miyutu: They build local courts in urban areas, forgetting the rural areas, and yet there are thieves there too.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: People commit assault offences even in villages.

Mr Muntanga: Adultery.

Hon. Member: Karavinas.

Mr Miyutu: The gender violence that we are talking about is also there in villages, but who is there to deliver justice?

Hon. Member: Nobody.

Mr Miyutu: Take Lutwi Local Court, for example. It is just a court by name. The Clerk sleeps in a structure that belongs to the World Vision.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Like an orphan.

Mr Miyutu: I asked this man to show me his pay slip.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: I said, “Are you really a Government worker?’ Courageously, he went inside and collected his pay slip and, for sure, it was written, “The Government of Zambia”.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Then, I realised how much this worker was suffering.

Mr Muntanga: The Government of Zambia.

Mr Miyutu: Now that we have a new Government, I hope …

Mr Muntanga: A new Government.

Mr Miyutu: … that, at least, at Lutwi, we can have one court structure.

Mr Chilangwa: Panono sana apo.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, surely, for forty-seven years, the whole of Kalomo District has only one court structure. No, no, no. We want change. I have seen the estimates and there are courts which are indicated there, but there is nothing for Kalabo.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: I do not know how we shall survive in Kalabo without justice being delivered. We have one Subordinate Court in the whole district of over 200, 000 residents. Worse still, this Court has no magistrate. So, we do not know what type of subordinate court we have there. We always have to depend on the services from Mongu although they only send a magistrate when they remember us. These magistrates they send only come for court sessions after which they go back to Mongu.

Sir, I would like to request the hon. Minister of Justice to send a magistrate who will be stationed in Kalabo on a permanent basis. For over four years, we have had no magistrate.  Are we not human beings who can commit offences?

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Currently, there is typhoid in Kalabo and people who are in custody sleep with handcuffs on. You can imagine someone in custody who falls sick and is forced to keep the handcuffs on while awaiting judgment. Even the signing of warrants becomes a problem at times. They have to rush to the subordinate court for this. How can we live like that forty-seven years after independence? We want real change.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu:  Practical change.

Sir, with regard to the recruitment of staff, especially, for local courts, interviews have been held twice, in 2010 and 2011, but there have been no results.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Are these interviews just to please the people of Kalabo? We do not want interviews. We want people to work in the local courts. So, I would like to urge the hon. Minister that those interviews must yield fruit. We want to see workers deployed in Kalabo so that justice is delivered. Justice delayed is justice denied. We want the working PF Government to deliver justice to the people of Kalabo.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the budgetary allocation to the ministry is too little, considering the amount of work which it does. However, let us distribute even these little resources equally so that we all enjoy our share of the resources of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister of Justice to consider reviewing the salaries of workers in the Judiciary. They are too low and have caused the court clerks to embezzle revenue.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: They have to buy mealie-meal and send their children to school. So, they fail to supply the receipts. This means that the Government is losing the money that is supposed to be collected by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

You will find that when you need a writ of summons and go to the court to get it, they will tell you that there is no receipt. They are failing to provide a receipt which is just produced locally as if they have to travel to China to find a geologist to come and open a mine.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, they do not just have a mere piece of paper. These are simple things which discredit a Government.

Ms Kalima: Quality!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, these are the issues which make those who are in the Government lose elections. They lose elections because they ignore the cries of the people regarding such issues. If the people are not listened to, they may decide to change the Government. In our case, has the change been real?

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … I wish to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr S. S. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all hon. Members who have contributed to this debate. Indeed, there are a lot of areas where there are no local courts. You will find that in certain areas, there is no infrastructure and no local court magistrates. I am aware that this situation in many parts of the country. A lot of information has been communicated to me regarding what is happening in a number of areas. I have taken note of what all the hon. Members have said because it is true. We shall, therefore, look into the issues which have been raised during the debate regarding the policy statement of my ministry. We are going to construct at least forty-five local court buildings throughout the country using our allocation for 2012.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr S. S. Zulu: We shall not only construct the few which I mentioned in the policy statement. I have taken note of all the things that have been said by the hon. Members regarding my ministry.  Very soon, the hon. Members will see some improvements on the ground.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 18/01 – (Judiciary – Headquarters – K86,764,488,057).

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4066, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K250,000,000. There is an increment in…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)
_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 7th December, 2011.