Tuesday, 14th November, 2023

Tuesday, 14^th November, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

LAUNCH OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF ZAMBIA COMMUNICATION STRATEGY AND MY E-PARLIAMENT APPLICATION

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the National Assembly will launch the Communication Strategy 2022-2026 and the My e-Parliament digital application as part of its efforts towards making Parliament responsive to the needs and aspirations of the citizenry. The Communication Strategy augments the institution’s desire to enhance public participation in parliamentary business through various platforms. The mobile application enables citizens to interact with Members of Parliament in real time.

All hon. Members are invited to the launch of the said platforms in the Amphitheatre, here, at the Main Parliament Buildings, on Thursday, 16^th November, 2023, starting at 0930 hours. Attendance is on voluntary basis.

I thank you.

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RULINGS BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON WEDNESDAY, BY MR K. MUKOSA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHINSALI CONSTITUENCY, ON MR A. KATAKWE, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SOLWEZI EAST CONSTITUENCY, FOR INSINUATING THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT WHO HAD BORROWED MONEY AND POCKETED IT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Wednesday, 4^thOctober, 2023, when it was considering the Motion of Supply for the 2024 National Budget and Mr A. Katakwe, hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi East Constituency, was on the Floor, Mr K. A. Mukosa, hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali Constituency, raised a point of order. The point of order was premised on Order No. 65(1)(b) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, which requires a Member who is debating to ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.

In his point of order, Hon. K. Mukosa enquired whether Hon. A. Katakwe, was in order to suggest that there were people in the Government who had borrowed money and put it in their pockets without providing evidence. In his immediate response, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker reserved his ruling. I have studied the matter and I now render my ruling.

The point of order raises the issue of a Member’s duty to ensure that the information he or she provides to the House when debating is factual and verifiable.

Hon. Members, Standing Order No. 65(1)(b) provides, on the subject, as follows:

“65. (1) A Member who is debating shall –

(b) ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Hon. Members, in investigating the matter, I had recourse to the relevant verbatim record of the proceedings of Wednesday, 4^thOctober, 2023. The statement that led to the point of order is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, let me end by saying that in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, the Government has outlined how it is going to borrow money, and it has shown that this has to be done transparently by bringing the plan to this House. It shows how prudent the Government is on sustainable borrowing. Not a situation in which we saw people borrowing money in order to put in their pockets.”

Hon. Members, the above excerpt confirms that Hon. A. Katakwe, in his debate, insinuated that there were people in the past who had borrowed money and put it in their pockets. He, however, did not lay any document on the Table to support his assertion. Hon. A. Katakwe, MP, was, therefore, out of order.

I thank you.

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR M. KAFWAYA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUNTE CONSTITUENCY, ON HON. R. SIKUMBA, MINISTER OF TOURISM, ON WHETHER THE HON. MINISTER WAS IN ORDER TO STATE THAT HON. MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT HAD THE POWER TO DIRECT HOW THE CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND WAS APPLIED

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Wednesday, 4^thOctober, 2023, when the House was considering matters of urgent public importance and Hon. R. Sikumba, Minister of Tourism, had just concluded responding to a matter of urgent public importance raised by Mr D. Mung’andu, hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South Constituency, Mr M. Kafwaya, hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte Constituency, raised a point of order on Hon. R. Sikumba. In his point of order, Hon. M. Kafwaya asked whether the hon. Minister was in order to pit hon. Members of Parliament against their constituents by making the latter believe that the hon. Members had the power to direct how the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) was applied. He further stated that the hon. Minister was aware that it was the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) that directed the application of the CDF. In my immediate response, I reserved my ruling to enable me to investigate the matter. I have since studied the matter and I now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, Hon. M. Kafwaya’s point of order was based on a statement by the hon. Minister encouraging hon. Members to sink as many boreholes as they could, away from crocodile-infested rivers, using the CDF, to prevent their communities from going to the rivers and lakes.

In investigating this matter, I had recourse to the relevant verbatim record. A review of the record revealed that Mr M. Kafwaya, MP’s point of order was not based on any Standing Order or rule of procedure or privilege of the House that had been breached.

Hon. Members, the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021 are instructive on the procedure to be followed when raising a point of order. In this regard, Standing Order No. 131(3) provides as follows:

“(3) In raising a point of order, a member shall cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of members, or rule of procedure or practice which has been allegedly breached.”

Hon. Members, from the foregoing, it is clear that the point of order breached the procedural requirement I have just referred to. In view of this, the point of order is inadmissible.

I thank you.

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR M. CHINKULI, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANYAMA CONSTITUENCY, ON HON. B. M. MUNDUBILE THE THEN LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, FOR ALLEGEDLY NOT AIDING PRESIDING OFFICERS IN THE MAINTENANCE OF DISCIPLINE AND DECORUM OF THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Thursday, 5^th October, 2023, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 74 and Hon. S. Masebo, Minister of Health, was on the Floor, Hon. M. Chinkuli, Member of Parliament for Kanyama Constituency, raised a point of order. The point of order was made pursuant to Order No. 44 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, which relates to the duty of the Leader of the Opposition to assist the Presiding Officers in maintaining discipline in the House.

In his point of order, Hon. M. Chinkuli, enquired whether Hon. B. M. Mundubile, the then Leader of the Opposition, was in order to neglect his duty to assist the Presiding Officer in maintaining discipline and decorum in the House. In her immediate response, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling to enable her to render an informed ruling.

Hon. Members, in investigating the matter, I had recourse to the relevant verbatim record and video footage of the proceedings of that day.

The background to the point of order is that Hon. S. Kakubo, Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation rendered a ministerial statement on the State Visit to the People’s Republic of China by the Republican President, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema. While the hon. Minister was responding to a question on a point of clarification, by Hon. M. Kafwaya, Member of Parliament for Lunte Constituency, rose without being called upon and referred to the hon. Minister’s response as nonsense. When the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker attempted to guide Hon. Kafwaya that he could not use such a word in the House, Hon. Kafwaya engaged in an exchange of words with her and, generally, misconducted himself. While Hon. Kafwaya was doing that, Hon. B. M. Mundubile, who was a seat away from him, did not make any attempt to calm him down or stop him from misconducting himself. Subsequently, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 74, Hon. M. Chinkuli raised the point of order that is the subject of this ruling.

Hon. Members, Order No. 132 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021, sets out the admissibility criteria for points of order. Standing Order No. 132 (1) (a), in particular, provides as follows:

“A point of order may be admissible if it is raised immediately after the alleged breach occurs.”

Further, Standing Order No. 132 (4) provides as follows:

“Where a member observes a breach of rules long after the breach has occurred, the member may submit a written complaint to the Speaker.”

Hon. Members, the import of the foregoing rules of the House is that a point of order must be raised soon after a breach occurs. Where an hon. Member fails to do this, then the hon. Member may submit a written complaint. In the instant case, the House was considering the ministerial statement presented by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation when the breach referred to in Hon. M. Chinkuli’s point of order allegedly occurred. The point of order, on the other hand, was raised during Questions for Oral Answer when the House was considering Question No. 74, which was considered after Questions No. 72 and 73. Evidently, by the time the point of order was raised, the House had transitioned from the ministerial statements to Questions for Oral Answer. Additionally, even during the Questions for Oral Answer segment, two questions had been considered before the point of order was raised. From the foregoing, it is apparent that the point of order was not raised immediately after the alleged breach occurred as required by Standing Order No. 132 (1) (a). In view of this, Hon. Chinkuli’s, point of order is inadmissible.

I thank you.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: I have just received information to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, Hon. Lufuma, Minister of Defence, will act as Leader of Government Business in the House effective today until further notice.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR KATAKWE, HON. MEMBER FOR SOLWEZI EAST, ON MR LUFUMA, HON. MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON SOLWEZI EAST CONSTITUENTS SELLING AT THE BORDER WITH THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO BEING HARASSED BY ZAMBIA NATIONAL SERVICE OFFICERS

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to rise on a matter of urgent public importance on behalf of the people of Solwezi East, Mushindamo District.

Madam Speaker, in Solwezi East, Mushindamo District in particular, we only have one gazetted market, which is called Kipushi Border Market. That is where our local people or farmers go to trade with the people from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). What has been happening is that the people who are in His Royal Highness Chief Chikola’s Chiefdom and Chief Lusaka’s Chiefdom use the border as their only place for trading activities. Now, about 4 km before the border, there is a Zambia National Service (ZNS) checkpoint. As you get closer to Solwezi, about 140 km to Solwezi, there is another ZNS checkpoint, and each time our people go to trade while carrying a meda of maize or any other grain that is restricted by the ZNS officers, they are beaten. This morning, I received news that one of our people was beaten up and injured by ZNS officers, and that has been happening on a daily basis. So, our people are saying that if this is going to go on, they are ready to go to the border and react because the Congolese have dominated trade on the Zambian side. They are stocking maize, mealie meal and other things, yet our people are being restricted and beaten up by the ZNS officers. So, they are ready to riot, fight and break things there.

Madam Speaker, I am afraid that we may end up losing lives. I raise this matter directed to the hon. Minister of Defence, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. We have tried to table this matter and suggested that ZNS officers patrol the border line so that those who are selling at a designated point do not use other routes to get into the DRC to avoid being levied. The people on our side are crying on a daily basis because of this kind of harassment.

Madam Speaker, this is an urgent matter that needs to be attended to before you hear that a life has been lost in that area.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: In view of the fact that this is more of a constituency-specific question, I advise the hon. Member for Lukulu East to file an urgent question.

Hon. Government Members: Solwezi East!

Madam Speaker: Solwezi East, sorry.

I advise that the hon. Member for Solwezi East puts in an urgent question to either the hon. Minister of Defence or to whatever relevant ministry.

MR TWASA, HON. MEMBER FOR KASENENGWA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON DISTRIBUTION OF THE BALANCE OF FERTILISER FOR THE 2021/2022 FARMING SEASON IN KASENENGWA

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Twasa: Madam Speaker, this morning, as I was coming to a Committee meeting, I received a phone call from my constituency. One member of my constituency called me and said that members of a committee in Kasenengwa were up in arms when they heard that farmers would not receive their balance of fertiliser for the 2021/2022 Farming Season. They ganged up to go and harass the District Agricultural Co-ordinator (DACO). The gentleman who called said that he had to run to go and warn the DACO. When he called me, he was with the DACO. So, I had an opportunity to talk to the DACO and he told me that those threats were real. At the moment, the DACO is even having difficulties monitoring activities in the constituency or district as the distribution of farming inputs is going on.

Madam Speaker, this matter needs urgent attention before we hear that our agricultural officers have been attacked, harmed or a life is lost. Right now, as they are distributing farming inputs, there are squabbles over people receiving inputs in smaller quantities, and the people are angry. So, we need to find a way to get a serious statement from the hon. Minister so that as a Member of Parliament, I know what to tell my people in my constituency. This matter is beyond the DACO.

Madam Speaker, I spoke to my cousin in Petauke and I learnt that there is a similar problem there as well. So, I need your indulgence so that we can educate our people. These matters are beyond the camp officers and the DACOs. We need people to know exactly what is happening from the Government’s side.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Kasenengwa.

Like I guided the hon. Member for Solwezi East, the matter you have raised is important and needs some attention but, please, file in an urgent question that the hon. Minister can address.

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, you indicated late. However, since you are the third one, I will allow you.

MR CHEWE, HON. MEMBER FOR LUBANSENSHI, ON MR MTOLO, THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ON A LACK OF CASSAVA SEEDLINGS IN LUBANSENSHI

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity to raise this matter of urgent public importance. My matter of urgent public importance is directed to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

I am from Lubansenshi Constituency, where your people, our people, especially those who cultivate cassava and depend so much on the same as a staple food, are in serious problems. Our cassava farmers in Lubansenshi Constituency, or may I say the entire Luwingu District, are in serious problems. I bring this matter before the hon. Minister of Agriculture so that he can advise the people of Lubansenshi on what to do, especially those who are affected. What can they do since this is now the rainy season?

If the Government has some cassava seedlings or plants in Kawambwa, how best can the farmers access those plants? I thought I should bring this to the attention of the hon. Minister.

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Lubansenshi.

I suggest that you file in a question. While the question is being processed, you can also engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture. I see that he is not in the House but, please, put in a question. Then the hon. Minister will be able to attend to it. I know that the issue of cassava was raised sometime back, but I do not know when. It appears to be an on-going problem; it is not a recent occurrence. So, I suggest that you file in a question.

Thank you very much. Let us make progress.

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF A ROAD FROM MUFUCHANI BRIDGE TO THE NDOLA/MUFULIRA ROAD

140. Mr Charles Mulenga (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

whether the Government has any plans to construct a road from Mufuchani Bridge in Kitwe District to the Ndola/Mufulira Road;

if so, when the plans will be implemented;

what the estimated cost of the project is;

what the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is; and

if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the road from Mufuchani Bridge in Kitwe District to the Ndola/Mufulira Road.

Madam Speaker, the plans will be implemented once the Treasury secures the required funds.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of the project will be determined once a contractor has been procured.

Madam Speaker, the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is eighteen months from commencement of works.

Madam Speaker, lastly, the Government has the plans, as indicated in part (a) of the question.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Charles Mulenga: Madam Speaker, let me truly thank the hon. Minister for the response that he has just given on the concern from the people of Kwacha on opening up that important road.

Tho road, Madam Speaker, is a very important link to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) through Sakanya Border Post and will create an easy access route to Mufulira as well as Ndola through the newly-constructed Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe Airport. Of course, the economic benefit that the road will bring cannot be overemphasised, and it will also decongest the road that leads to Ndola from Kitwe as well as the one that leads to Mufulira. Ultimately, that will increase the lifespan of the roads. I am aware that the Government is inhibited by numerous budget constraints from which case resources may not easily come from undertaking the project. Is there a possibility for the Government to use a public-private partnership (PPP) model so that the road can become a reality for the people of Kwacha in general, and Kitwe in particular?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, in the preamble of the hon. Member’s follow-up question, he mentioned various other aspects that surround that area, including Sakanya Border. I must also mention that the road, obviously, is one of the projects that were backlogged, having been designed by the Road Development Agency (RDA) as far back as 2017. We will be looking at opportunities for creating public-private partnerships (PPP) that will enable us, with the very small resource envelope we have currently, as the Government, to work on that 50 km stretch.

Madam Speaker, I also want to mention that as an interim measure, 6.8 km of that stretch will be worked on with the help of the Kitwe City Council. Those will be purely routine maintenance works that we will be doing on that stretch. As soon as the Government gets the requisite funds, we will be able to engage our team, through the RDA, to work on it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker. the stretch of that road from the bridge to the Ndola/Mufulira Road is about 22 km and, currently, it passes through the farming blocks. So, it is categorised as a feeder road. In his response, the hon. Minister said that the Government has plans to rehabilitate that road. Is the intention to leave it as a feeder road, a well-maintained gravel road, or is it to upgrade it to a tarmac?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, with the current resource envelope we have, it is only prudent that we keep the road as a feeder road. However, the desire of our Government is to upgrade it to bituminous standard so that it is able to feed into the next border as well as the farming blocks we have around.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for permitting me to ask a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Ndola, Mufulira and Kitwe, I would like to know if the money will be available under the 2023 Budget. The hon. Minister indicated that the project will be implemented when Treasury authority is granted. Our people wish to know whether that will be in 2023 or 2024.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, in terms of the Budget, do you mean the one for 2023 or 2024?

Mr Chewe was inaudible.

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member is asking about the 2023 Budget, the answer is no. That road does not appear in the Road Sector Annual Work Plan.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member was also wondering about 2024. I think, he was talking about two years; 2023 and 2024.

Mr Chewe indicated assent.

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I mentioned earlier that most road projects, such as the Mufuchani/Zamtan Road, were designed as far back as 2017. The spirit in which our Government is moving, this time around, is to see how best we can partner with the private sector. So, to quickly answer the question, not even in 2024 does the road appearing on our Road Sector Annual Work Plan. We will endeavour to see how best we can have it worked on as a PPP project.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nakaponda had indicated to ask a question but her system indicator went off.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Isoka, have you withdrawn your indication?

Ms Nakaponda: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Let us make progress.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Vote 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – K190,079,400)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Chairperson, may you guide me because part of the policy statement was read. I do not know whether I can start all over.

The Chairperson: Was it completed?

Mr Lufuma: It was not completed, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I do not know whether you know where the substantive hon. Minister ended when business was interrupted.

Mr Lufuma: No, I do not but, if you may allow me, I can start all over. I should be able to finish within the five minutes allocated, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: You can go ahead, hon. Minister.

Mr Lufuma: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, let me thank you for according me the opportunity to present before this august House a policy statement on the 2024 Budget Estimates for Vote 16, Drug Enforcement Commission.

The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) is a statutory body established under Article No.235(b) of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016. The mandate of the commission is to prevent and control money laundering activities and illegal cultivation, production, trafficking and abuse of illicit drugs and precursor chemicals. This mandate is drawn from the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act No. 35 of 2021 and the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act No. 14 of 2001, as amended by Act No. 44 of 2010 of the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, in terms of performance, the commission has continued to score above the annual set targets in both money laundering and drug-related cases investigated and concluded. As regards drug supply reduction, the commission has continued to conduct widespread enforcement operations, resulting in significant seizures of various drugs. Cannabis has continued to be the main drug trafficked followed by heroine. Other drugs seized include cocaine and khat or miraa and whatever. In the recent past, diazepam followed by codeine have been the most trafficked prescription drugs seized.

Madam Chairperson, under drug demand reduction, the commission has continued to conduct drug prevention awareness activities in institutions of learning, communities and work places. In order to increase coverage, the commission has strengthened the use of mass media and social media platforms. Further, to facilitate community ownership and improve programme suitability, the commission has also prioritised peer education, family and parenting skills, and training. On the other hand, the proportion of new drug abusers has remained high, and the commission has continued to provide counselling services to drug-dependent persons, most of whom are school pupils.

Madam Chairperson, drug and substance abuse has continued to be a threat to national security, public health and socio-economic development of the country. This is evidenced by the increased number of drug-dependent persons, junkies as they are referred to, dotted around the country. To deal with the drug problem more effectively, the Government will construct a rehabilitation and skills development centre at estimated cost of K223,800,000.

Madam Chairperson, in respect of financial crime investigation and asset recovery, the commission has recovered high-value proceeds of crime, which have since been ploughed back into the mainstream economy for use in critical areas, such as education and health. It is important to note that fraud has continued to be the major predicate offence recorded, followed by theft and embezzlement. Other offences include tax evasion, corruption, drug trafficking, ponzi money circulation schemes and possession of high-value goods that are noncommensurate with known sources of income. Apart from scaling up intelligence and investigation mechanisms, the commission will continue to collaborate with other law enforcement agencies and competent authorities to enhance money laundering awareness activities.

Madam Chairperson, despite, the overall success recorded in implementing programmes, the operations of the commission have continued to be affected by inadequate financial and human resources, infrastructure, transport and specialised equipment. Other challenges include a lack of integrated information management systems, inadequate capacity building to meet the demands of modern law enforcement and a lack of presence in strategic missions abroad to effectively combat the transnational vices of drug trafficking and money laundering.

Madam Chairperson, the commission’s current staff establishment approved in 2013 stands at 1,821. However, to date, the active and funded positions are only 739, leaving a deficit of 1,082. In this regard, the staff establishment is only operating at 40.6 per cent of the approved structure.

Madam Chairperson, in order to improve service delivery in the fiscal year 2024, the commission will direct its efforts towards strengthening intelligence and investigation mechanisms in drug and psychotropic substances control and anti-money laundering programmes. In addition, efforts will be directed towards improving operational procedures and processes under the Management and Support Services Programme.

In this regard, in the 2024 Budget, the commission has been allocated K190, 079,399 to cater for all positions and personal emoluments –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, do you still have a lot to present?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, no, just a bit.

The Chairperson: The Information and Communication Technology (ICT) desk, I think, the hon. Minister did not start at the exact time. Can you, please, give him five extra minutes.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much.

Madam Chairperson, in the 2024 Budget, the commission has been allocated a total of K190,079,399 only to cater for operations and personal emoluments. This amount is shared among the three core programmes as follows:

Drug and Psychotropic Substances Control has been allocated K121,191,909;
Anti-Money Laundering has been allocated K15,891,901; and
Management and Support Services programme has been allocated a total of K52,995,589.

Madam Chairperson, the Drug and Psychotropic Substances Control programmes will involve drug demand and supply reduction. Under this programme, the commission intends to scale up drugs and substances abuse prevention activities, rehabilitation of drug-dependent persons, detection of narcotic drugs and psychotropic substances, and investigation of cases. The Anti-Money Laundering programme will focus on enhancing prevention and investigation mechanisms, conclusion of cases and increased asset recovery, while the Management and Support Services programme will support the core functions of the commission.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to request this august House to support the 2024 Budget for Vote 16, Drug Enforcement Commission.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you very much for giving me the time –

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is on the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa for disturbing his debate. I rarely stand on points of order. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, on the need to present verifiable information to this House.

Madam Chairperson, when the hon. Minister was reading his speech, he failed to mention two substances and simply referred to them as “whatever”. Therefore, was he in order, to fail to read what he was supposed to read and simply say “whatever”? What does whatever mean?

I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, I think, there are times when we encounter such problems, whereby one cannot pronounce a word in English but, I am sure, the hon. Minister tried. I do not know whether he is now able to mention those two substances.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I am trying to locate them in my statement before I can pronounce them. This time, I am sure, I will be able to get them correctly. Diazepam is one of them. It was only one, I appreciate.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Michelo: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate Vote 16, Drug Enforcement Commission. It is not a secret, but an undisputable fact, that Zambia is sitting on a ticking time bomb with regards to drug abuse, especially with our students in secondary schools, colleges and higher learning institutions. This Vote is very important, and it is one that requires us to put our heads together so that we introduce a course at the secondary, college and university levels in order to curb this dangerous vice we are handling right now.

Madam Chairperson, if we were to visit some secondary schools, we would find that many pupils have been taking illicit drugs. The story would be the same in colleges and universities, especially among young girls, who have really abused illicit drugs. As parents, we may think that when children go to colleges and universities, they are focusing on their studies, yet they are indulging in illicit activities, which is very dangerous. If there was a way, it would be good to introduce breathalysers in secondary schools, colleges and universities so that we monitor our children properly. What is happening, even just here, at the University of Zambia (UNZA), is very dangerous and, if we ignore it, Zambia will, in the next twenty years, be full of people intoxicated with different types of drugs, and those are people who will put this country in extreme danger.

Madam Chairperson, similarly, when we come to Parliament, these drugs are not just abused by our young ones, but also by mothers and fathers. These drugs are especially being abused by married men and women. There is a drug that is being abused by women called insunko. That drug is very dangerous and unhealthy for women. There is also a drug called vukavuka for men. This drug is not good for men, which is very important that we avoid some of these things. Cocaine and marijuana are also being abused not only by our children, but adults also.

Madam Chairperson, here, we are parents and, even if we do not debate ourselves, it is important that we also introduce breathalysers so that we test some hon. Members. This is because sometimes, they come here highly intoxicated, which is very dangerous for the people of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, money laundering is another important topic. It is an issue on which many people, especially those in the procurement departments, need to work extra hard. If we go to the ministries, we will find that illicit activities happen in the procurement departments, hence the need for us to work hard and stop that trend. When money is stolen, it is usually the politicians who are accused of having stolen it. People forget that the people from the procurement departments are the ones who are actually abusing funds. It is important to keep an eye on the procurement departments twenty-four hours a day and seven days a week.

Madam Chairperson, establishing rehabilitation centres, which the hon. Minister has talked about, is very important. However, we must not just build rehabilitation centres for the children, but also for older people, especially those who just left the Government recently. I remember, at one point, between 2017 and 2018, millions of Kwacha were spent just to buy beer at State House, which was very bad for this country. I do not think that under this regime of the United Party for National Development (UPND), millions of taxpayers’ money will be abused just to buy beer at State House.

Madam Chairperson, let me urge the hon. Minister to work extra hard because this topic is very important. Please, let us not just concentrate on the people who are already intoxicated or in the habit of abusing drugs, but also try to protect our children. It is very important that we do that, especially for those aged twelve to fourteen years, which is the adolescent age, and from seventeen to eighteen years old. Those are the most critical ages. So, we must look after our children so that they grow well.

Madam Chairperson, it is not my intention to waste too much of your time and that of the people of Zambia, especially Hon. Lufuma and Hon. Sampa, the Leader of the Opposition. So, let me end here.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing the people of Katombola Constituency to add their voice to the debate on the budget that has been allocated under Vote 16, Drug Enforcement Commission.

The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) is a very important agency of the Government. We have taken note of the allocation to it, which the people of Katombola are fully in support of. We would have wished for more, but for the budgetary restrictions.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to address the significance of the department called DEC. The people of Katombola are of the view that DEC is not only a security agency of the Government, but also an agency that is very important in fighting economic graft, drug trafficking and money laundering, which are rampant the world over as transnational organised crimes. We are proposing that the institutions that are law-enforcing in nature be amalgamated.

Madam Chairperson, as you look at history, you will realise that DEC was constituted in 1980 by the then President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Kenneth David Kaunda, and called the Special Investigations Team for Economy and Trade (SITET), a special investigations team for fighting economic crimes. This institution has been doing duplicated work most often than not with the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Zambia Police Service and other institutions. So, from our perspective, as the people of Katombola, we feel that these institutions must be re-aligned and the law aimed at fighting drug trafficking strengthened. The problem of drug trafficking has been very rampant not only in Zambia, but also as a transnational organised crime. There is a need to end drug trafficking because it does not only affect the economy of the Republic of Zambia, but is also general problem nationwide.

Madam Chairperson, at the moment, there are Acts that regulate DEC, which are the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act, Chapter 96 of the Laws of Zambia, and the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act of 2001. From the provisions of the two pieces of legalisation, DEC is mandated to curb the misuse of drugs and units such as the Anti-Money Laundering Investigation Unit, deals with issues of money laundering.

Madam Chairperson, there is a need to ensure that the Anti-Money Laundering Investigation Unit is amalgamated into the ACC and Crime One, which deals with fraud at the Zambia Police Headquarters, to avoid duplicity of work. I want to underscore the fact that Zambia must not allow itself to remain behind on matters of fighting economic crime. As we speak, many of our assets have been externalised for the simple reason that the systems have been very porous.

Interruptions

Mr Andeleki: May I be protected, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Andeleki: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the rampant manner in which –

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Let us lower our voices so that we do not disturb the person debating. We can talk, but in very low voices.

Mr Andeleki, you may continue.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Chairperson, before I was interrupted, I was talking about graft and the level of looting of national resources witnessed in this Republic. I was trying to say that we need to ensure that DEC is re-aligned and given sufficient capacity to fight both the problem of drug trafficking, which is rampant the world over and in Zambia, and money laundering.

Money laundering is an act of acquiring funds illicitly and ploughing them back into the economy. This is mostly done through corrupt activities, drug trafficking, robberies and many other means using illicitly acquired funds. We feel that Zambia must re-align itself to the international standards to ensure that we take up the initiatives at the international level, like the Stolen Asserts Recovery Initiative (STAR). Zambia must take up that role to ensure that all assets that have been externalised are recovered. As I speak, we just recovered two helicopters that were taken outside the jurisdiction of this country by the previous Government. We would like DEC to be strengthened to ensure that public resources are very protected from being looted. Zambia is a member of the Eastern and Southern Africa Anti-Money Laundering Group, and we must put ourselves on the international stage to ensure that laundered funds do not enter the economy of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, we know that money laundering is becoming a fuel for terrorism, and we are happy that the Government of Zambia has moved in a direction of creating an institution called the Centre Against Terrorism. The problems that money laundering brings to the economy are very serious, as they damage the economy. As I speak, we can see that there are many distortions in the economy. This is mostly attributable to the problem of money laundering. From the perspective of the people of Katombola Constituency, we feel that the law must be strengthened also so that we do not have a situation whereby somebody steals K2.1 billion and buries it, and he is only given a five-year suspended sentence. That is a very serious mockery, considering the high amounts that are involved. Over US$10 million was stolen by former Government officials. This fact is in a Supreme Court judgment; the case of Katele Kalumba and others, where the accused persons were just sentenced to five years in prison for money laundering. That becomes a mockery. As the people of Katombola Constituency, we propose that the punishment for looting public funds in form of money laundering or anything else be made very severe; it must not be less than twenty-five years imprisonment. The people who loot public resources deprive the ordinary people of Zambia access to the resources that they desire to develop the places where they live. In Katombola Constituency, our people have had no development. At the time we were taking over office, there was no hospital, mortuary or anything. That was under people who were in Government previously. There was no mortuary. Five chiefdoms had no road network or telephone network because of looting of public resources. We, from Katombola Constituency, propose that DEC be funded adequately and given the necessary impetus and strength to fight graft.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving the special people of Chasefu an opportunity to add their voice to debate on the Vote for the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). From the outset, I want to state that I support the budget, particularly, the increment that has been proposed. From K189,024,001 in 2023, the allocation has been increased to K190,079,400 in 2024. The increment is about K1 million.

Madam Chairperson, I will first go to the mandate of DEC. I want to focus on one of the mandates of the commission. The commission draws its mandate from the Prohibition and Prevention of Money Laundering Act No. 14 of 2021 as amended by Act No. 44 of 2010 of the Laws of Zambia. Since it has been emphasised by the previous speakers and the hon. Member for Katombola, I will not go into the definition of money laundering.

Madam Chairperson, I want to indicate that it is quite sad that Zambia is one of the countries where people who steal from the public are celebrated. People who steal from the poor are celebrated and we clap for them. Some of them have found themselves in leadership despite not having morals just because they have acquired money illicitly. One of the mandates of DEC; why it exists, is to protect the resources of the country. However, many times, it forgets its mandate. I want to remind DEC, from the highest officer to the lowest or from the lowest to the highest officer, that every time they report for work, they should know why they are there.

Madam Chairperson, again, it is in this country where people do not know why they go for work. When they get employed, they think that it is a favour. This country expects a lot from them. Issues of money laundering and illicit financial flaws are critical. Some people become very rich even without working for the money. From nowhere, as long as they get into political positions, they become very rich. We see them and we celebrate them. Is this the society that we need in this country? The answer is no. That is because DEC is not doing its job. Many times, the President of the Republic of Zambia has come here and wherever he has spoken and has said that we must deal with these issues. He has called for zero corruption. He speaks to the officers who are privileged and employed to execute the mandate of DEC. However, they are not doing their job. Instead, they concentrate on that person who is found with a ball of ‘weed’ in Chasefu. They leave us here and those who have gone, those who had stolen and acquired money illicitly and want to come back. We used to walk with them in the streets but then from nowhere, they become rich, yet DEC forgets about them. That is the money meant to develop this country, but it is taken away.

Madam Chairperson, DEC is not doing its job. Not only DEC, but so many other agencies. When people report for work, many times, the question they ask is: What has this institution done for me? The question they should be asking is: What have I done for DEC from 0800 hours to 1700 hours to protect natural resources? They should ask themselves that question daily, monthly and annually. What is DEC doing about money laundering and illicit financial flaws? Just like we are increasing this budget, I will be the first one, next year, if God gives me life, to shoot the budget if the commission does not improve in the areas of illicit financial flaws and money laundering.

Madam Chairperson, yes, the commission is doing very well. Its officers go and raid Chibolya everyday, but what is it doing to arrest those who launder resources from public coffers? What is it doing about the big thieves? We should focus our energies and efforts on the big thieves. We want to hear about that. One does not need to be told by the President that one is not doing much. When the President speaks like that, it is because he is frustrated that we are not supporting him. The commission should be ahead because it has the mandate to do so. That is why its officers are at work from 0800 hours to 1700 hours. Politically connected people need to be investigated. We were walking with some people, but in a short space of time, they have money and have even gone to the extent of keeping elephants in their yards. We are watching them! Where did they get the money?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: There is a Ngoni who steals fertiliser and smokes ‘weed’, and the commission goes to arrest the person. I have just come from the constituency.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, I want to talk to you today. In Chasefu and other rural constituencies, DEC officers are harassing innocent people. As I am speaking to you, at Lundazi Police Station, a person was arrested without evidence. In the village, we live in clusters of about five houses. When you differ with someone, that person will plant ‘weed’ in your house. Then the person will go and report you to DEC and the officers from DEC will go to the village following such a report. People are being arrested without evidence. The officers search people’s homes in the night. If they do not find the drugs, they take you to a backyard that is used by everyone and say, “Let us see here”. How can they arrest an innocent person in the night?

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member for Chasefu!

There is an indication for a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order, but I rise on this one pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, which provides that anyone debating in this House should be factual. Is my brother, the hon. Member for Chasefu, Mr Nyambose, in order to say that the people of Chasefu smoke ‘weed’?

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Is it factual that human beings can smoke ‘weed’?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

The Chairperson: The hon. Member for Chasefu, Hon. Nyambose, is telling us what is happening in his constituency. We do not know what is happening in his constituency. I do not know whether it is the word ‘weed’ that has to be explained.

Hon. Nyambose, as you debate, try to explain what the word ‘weed’ means so that it becomes clearer to whoever is listening. With that guidance, you may continue with your debate.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Chairperson, I am Tumbuka by tribe, and I know that one does not argue with presidents.

Laughter

Mr Nyambose: So, I cannot belittle my president. I am sure, he knows what I am talking about. I am talking about marijuana. People stopped smoking marijuana in Chasefu but, now, what is happening is that officers are using their agents to plant marijuana in the backyards of our people. When people are sleeping, they are being harassed. I just returned from my constituency, and I am asking DEC to go to Chasefu and talk to the people. The harassment of innocent Chasefu people by DEC officers has to stop.

Madam Chairperson, as I support this budget, I want DEC to focus on money laundering. The President has said corruption is corruption. From nowhere, people we were working and living with have acquired money that they cannot explain. So, DEC should focus on curbing money laundering. I want to see convictions for money laundering offences.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Chairperson, I will talk about two things. The first is to do with confidentiality relating to the documents that the security agents have access to in their quest to perform their duties. Most of the time, the offices do not have stationery. So, the officers are forced to take the security documents to Internet cafés to photocopy them. They use certain documents like the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) Form I, which is for statements, and DEC Form VII, which they use for investigations. Those are security documents that the officers take to Internet cafés. When a client comes, he or she is asked to collect the said documents from an Internet café. As we approve this budget, such trends should come to a stop. That is why we are approving this budget. Give stationery to the officers both in urban and rural areas. Case docket covers are no longer there. That is why at times, evidence is lost. In other words, there is no confidentiality with regard to documents. This issue is even extended to the Zambia Police Service. The ZP Form 32 and other documents of security nature are all over in Internet cafes. By law, those documents are classified. Why are we letting them out there? It is because officers do not have enough stationery.

Madam Chairperson, the commission’s core mandate has to do with the prevention of drug abuse. That commission should not be shifted to concentrate more on the new mandate; white-collar crime that the hon. Member was talking about, money laundering.

Madam Chairperson, DEC exists to build a society that is worth having. Now, if it leaves the young and concentrates too much on money laundering, then, the problem of drug abuse will not be solved. Yes, fighting corruption is important, but our focus is on building a society that is drug abuse-free. So, the commission should focus on going into schools. We need to see more sensitisation of our young people on drug abuse. The junkies we are seeing in the compounds are as a result of drug abuse. Let us see more sensitisation, especially of the youths, because that is how DEC is going to be part to building a society to reckon with. We will not have upright citizens in society if we do not address the issue of drug abuse. So, even as we approve this budget, I urge DEC to develop keen interest in school children aged between ten and fifteen years, just as the other hon. Member said. From a psychological perspective, that is the age group that gets spoiled. So, the commission should go to their schools and talk to them. We want the commission go through the compounds and announce that it will be at a certain school sensitising people about drug abuse. It should call on the youths to go and listen to it and also engage drama groups to put up some performances about drug abuse. Those things are not happening frequently.

Madam Chairperson, as we approve this budget, we want the commission to focus more on its core mandate. Otherwise, we will end up having a society that is full of junkies. The so-called junkies are a result of people abusing drugs. So, the commission must rid our society of that name of junkies, and it has to carry out its mandate accordingly. It should not switch and focus too much on white-colour crimes. Yes, it must fight crime but, our interest is to make sure that we have a drug-free society, especially for the young ones.

At the same time, when the officers are carrying out their investigations, they also use members of the community. The members of the community they use as informants need to be trained to not be victimising people. My colleague said that, sometimes, the informants report their colleagues to DEC even when there is no basis for doing so. This is the reason the informants need to be trained so that they are in tandem with officers from DEC as they perform their duties. Further, the commission must provide them with bicycles to ease their mobility.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me reiterate the need for the commission to address the issue of confidentiality of security documents. It should work on that as the budget is being approved. Secondly, it must work on the core mandate of making sure that we have a society that is drugabuse-free.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support the budget, as the people of Chembe really need change.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Chairperson, I would like thank you for according me the opportunity, on behalf of the people of Roan Constituency, to add my voice to the debate on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to say that I support this budget because I want the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) to fulfil its mandate as provided for in the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act No. 35 of 2021; to prevent the illegal cultivation, production, trafficking and, indeed, abuse of narcotic drugs as well as prevent money laundering activities.

Madam Chairperson, I support this budget because I want DEC to fulfil its mandate of strengthening intelligence and investigative mechanisms. I also support this budget because I want DEC to enhance its asset recovery. However, when it comes to the breakdown of the resources allocated to the commission’s programmes, I am not comfortable. For instance, K101,411,211, which represents 53.3 per cent, has been allocated to personal emoluments; K71,568,189, which is 37.7 per cent, has been allocated to goods and services; while K17,100,000, which is a paltry 9 per cent, has been allocated to assets. I am saying that I am not comfortable because today, we have seen an increase in cases of drug trafficking, drug abuse and abuse of office. The K17,100,00 or 9 per cent is too small for this programme. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to consider allocating more money to this programme. This is where it begins and this is where it will end in terms of stopping drug abuse and, of course, the illegal acquisition of assets.

Madam Chairperson, I am also not comfortable with the allocation to the drug and psychotrophic substance investigations. Only K2,133,190 has been allocated, which is too little an amount. This programme needs enough money for it to reach the far-flung areas of this country. We do not see drugs being cultivated in the urban areas. Drugs are coming from far-flung areas where people are cultivating them on huge hectares of land and then transport them to urban areas. Imagine, drugs are moving from Chasefu or Lumezi laden on trucks and passing all the points only to be intercepted in Lusaka. This means that we are not doing much on investigations, and of course, other mechanisms for ensuring that the traffickers are intercepted on the corridors which they use.

Madam Chairperson, again, I am saying that this money is too small. We need officers of the commission to be mobile. We do not need them to be going to Chawama, Kanyama or Roan constituencies only to pursue people who are dealing with drugs at a small scale. That is very rampant in rural areas and the problem is simply transferred to the markets in the urban areas. I am, therefore, suggesting that the amount allocated to the programme on drug and psychotropic substance investigations be increased.

Madam Chairperson, I am at sea. Money laundering has been allocated K15,891,901. We are not going to win this war. Money laundering is becoming sophisticated, as there is also digital laundering now. Just yesterday, there was a boom, or screaming headline in the news about some companies keeping US$250,000 or K2.5 million cash in their home when we have banks that are supposed to keep that money. We are saying that there is no money in circulation, yet people are keeping huge amounts of money in their homes. We need to do more to investigate such cases and ensure that people or businesses abide by the laws of this land.

Madam Chairperson, it is also imperative that we go back a little to see how people behaved. On Friday, there will be a football match at the Levy Mwanawasa Stadium. I am sure that the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts will agree with me that that stadium is a sorry sight because there is no parking space. The reason is that the design had no provision for parking space. People initially had a design that included parking space but, because leaders were selfish, they allocated plots meant to be the parking lot to themselves. Today, we face the challenge of a lack of parking space whenever we go to watch football at the Levy Mwanawasa Stadium. Way back, leaders were displacing people simply because they were in office. That was abuse of office. So, we want this Vote to be allocated more money so that the officers can go deeper and find out what is happening.

Madam Chairperson, today, illicit money is all over, and we want DEC to do more. Scamming of people is not only happening in banks. People are being scammed even on phones. I believe, that is fraud. We need DEC to come in, investigate and bring that to a stop because we are not going to be allocating monies to a Vote that is not yielding any results. So, I am asking the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to consider allocating more money to the programme concerned with drugs and psychotropic substance investigations. Once we do that, we will be arming the officers and enabling them to go out there. Yes, we need them to be properly remunerated, but I feel that K101,411,211 for personal emoluments is too much. We need to allocate resources equitably and get results from the officers.

Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the debate on this very important Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on something that really bothers the people of Kanyama.

Madam Chairperson, based on its mandate, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) has a huge task ahead. However, this institution cannot operate alone because it requires certain institutions that deal with security matters to come on board and supplement its efforts.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to look at institutions such as the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and the Department of Immigration. I believe that the ZRA is mandated to assess certain institutions’ Acts and ensure their enforcement because they are based at the front line. The question that I would like to pose, and I do not need any answer from anyone, is: Does the ZRA have experts who can detect drugs that come into the country in different forms? These drugs are capable of being imported into the country through various means. Some people go to the extent of swallowing the drugs while others shove them in their car tyres and the like. So, the question is: With the staff that we have, are we able to seize those drugs?

Madam Chairperson, that brings me to my request to the hon. Minister that the DEC be funded adequately so that its operations can be integrated with those of the ZRA, and it can train staff, and acquire gadgets and sniffer dogs that will be able to detect drugs. I think, sniffer dogs are the fastest detectors of drugs. So, without gadgets and trained staff, I think, whatever we talkg about will just be an academic exercise.

Madam Chairperson, looking at the drugs that are already in the country, I am happy that we intend to identify and possibly destabilise drug suppliers in the country. Those people have actually brought misery to the people of Kanyama. I am talking about junkies. I have been labelled the father of junkies. Whatever they are doing, they are still my children. However, the bottom line is that drug dealers have really caused misery to our children.

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to note that once drugs are consumed, they have an array of effects, ranging from withdrawal, depression and, to some extent, short-term memories. When people are in that mode after taking drugs, they can do anything without realising that what they are doing is bad. As a result, who suffers? It is the community; the people around them. The people who use drugs in Chibolya or Soweto Market, once they are in that mode of memory loss, can attack anyone. At the end of the day, we start calling people’s children junkies.

Madam Chairperson, I am aware that the commission carries out some sensitisation programmes in the communities, but this issue of just moving around in a truck while boys are singing needs to change. We need to change the narrative, face reality and sit down with the community, police and whoever is involved so that we can talk about these issues and see how best the community, DEC and the police can fight this scourge. Otherwise, if we are going to fight it in the manner we are doing it now, we will be wasting time.

Madam Chairperson, we would like to see police presence, especially in Kanyama. In Garden House and Makeni Villa townships, where there are no police posts, people would want to see the presence of police, DEC and all the agencies that will take sanity to the communities.

Madam Chairperson, without wasting much of your time, allow me to say that we are looking at having people who have love, devotion and some sense of attachment to the country because drug deals are handled by cartels and syndicates. So, it is only people who have those characteristics that I have mentioned who will be able to say no to that and report whoever is trying to sell drugs to the relevant authorities. Those who protect drug dealers will think twice and ask themselves what good shielding wrong people will do to the country. So, patriotism will play a major role in this matter.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I wish to submit.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for this opportunity to wind up debate.

Madam Chairperson, may I take this opportunity, in the first instance, to thank all my colleagues, the hon. Members of Parliament from both the right and left, for thoroughly debating this Vote. I think, this is a topic of interest. DEC is one of the most important agencies responsible for ensuring that the resources of the Government of the Republic of Zambia are used prudently to progress and grow the economy, and to improve the welfare of the people of this country.

Madam Chairperson, yes, the mandate of the commission is well-defined; prevention and control of money laundering activities, and illegal cultivation, production, trafficking and abuse of illicit use of drugs and precursor chemicals.

Madam Chairperson, my hon. Colleague from Chembe was basically putting emphasis on one of the mandates only, which is basically sensitisation campaigns. Yes, it is one of them, and I think, it is clearly defined as one of the major activities that the commission carries out with the young people in schools and other people. It is a very important activity, and we will try by all means to improve its execution. Indeed, unless we sensitise our youths and ensure that they are not engaging in drug trafficking and drug abuse, this country will be in maningi trouble. So, we take note of that concern.

Madam Chairperson, the other leg is on laundering. There is It is a clear statement here on the prevention and control of money laundering. I think, that was again emphasised by one of the debaters. It is very important. These resources that are being abused through corruption and illicit acquisition basically deduct from the potential and possibilities of this country, moving forward. It is, therefore, very important that the commission does its work to the maximum.

Madam Chairperson, it is also very important to not leave this work to the commission alone. The citizenry has a responsibility, too. In most cases, most of us have a lot of information about certain assets that have been illicitly acquired. However, in Zambia, we keep quiet and just whisper, you know what? That property there is for so and so. That one is for so and so”. People should come out in the open and report suspicious activities. DEC is a friendly institution. So, people should report to and work together with it. Then we shall be able to recover those assets for the benefit of this country. I know of a neighbouring country where many assets have actually been seized. That has only been possible because of citizen participation. Citizens participate and collaborate with institutions such as DEC. This is what I would like to encourage each and every citizen who is patriotic enough: to collaborate with DEC. However, that does not only end with citizens. I would like to encourage hon. Members here to do the same.

On this note, Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you and thank everybody for debating and supporting this Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Allen Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 176, Table 3, Programme 4174, Sub-Programmes 001 – Money Laundering Prevention – K1,043,000 and 002 – Money Laundering Investigations – K14,441,731. In 2022, the allocation for money laundering investigations was K14 million. I want to believe that proper investigations were done and, obviously, more people were arrested. This sub-programme was, again, given an allocation in 2023.

Madam Chairperson, why should we continue funding investigations rather than allocating funds towards money laundering prevention? What we are trying to do is to stop people from committing offenses rather than looking for money that we may not even get now.

Madam Chairperson, I also seek clarification on page 174, Table 1, Economic Classification 31 – Assets – K17,100,000.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Banda, the hon. Minister is complaining that you are too fast.

Mr Allen Banda: Can I start again?

The Chairperson: Did you get the first question, hon. Minister?

Mr Lufuma indicated dissent.

Mr Allen Banda: You did not get the first one?

Mr Lufuma was inaudible.

Mr Allen Banda: Madam Speaker, fine, let us start with the first one then. That is on page 176, Table 3, Programme 4174, Sub-Programme 001 – Money Laundering Prevention – K1,043,000, and Sub-Programme 002 – Money Laundering Investigations – K14,441,731. In 2022, this sub-programme was allocated K14 million, in 2023, it was K11 million and in 2024, the allocation is K14 million again. My concern is: Why should we put so much money into investigations and not allocate enough money into prevention? I believe that in 2022, proper investigations were done with the allocation of K14 million. Even this year, with K12 million, proper investigations must have been done. Therefore, are we going to just be investigating instead of preventing it? What we need to do is prevent rather than investigate.

Is that alright? Can I move on to the second one?

The Chairperson: You can move on.

Mr Allen Banda: Madam Chairperson, the second issue I seek clarification on is on page 174, Table 1, Economic Classification 31 – Assets – K17,100,000. In 2023, the budget for assets was K21 million and in 2024, there is an allocation of K17 million.

Madam Chairperson, in Chimwemwe, we have issues. When we call on the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) officers, the officers fail to show up because they are few. So, why should we continue spending so much on assets rather than using some of that to beef-up staff at DEC?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, maybe, I will start with the last issue. It is not a matter of using so much money for assets rather than other programmes. I think, these things are complementary. You require the necessary assets in order to do the investigations. You require certain assets in order to do the prevention as well. So, it is important that these items are adequately balanced. It is a delicate balancing situation or equation in which assets go into investigations as well as sensitisation.

Madam Chairperson, you will find that at times, more money is allocated towards assets because by nature, assets are more expensive than doing investigations. However, these issues are intricately intertwined and reinforce one another. That is the answer I can give for that question.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue is on Programme 4174, Sub-Programme 001 – Money Laundering Prevention – K1,043,000 and Sub-Programme 002 – Money Laundering Investigations – K14,441,731. In 2023, the allocation for investigations was K11 million, but it is now K14 million for 2024. Why the emphasis on prevention rather than investigations? I think, that was more or less the question or is it the other way around?

Mr Allen Banda interjected.

Mr Lufuma: Alright, the concern is on why there is more emphasis on investigations rather than prevention? I do not think we have placed emphasis on investigations at the expense of prevention. The situation is such that we spend slightly more money on investigations as compared with prevention, but prevention is getting the necessary input that it deserves. So, as far as we are concerned, it is a balanced equation. We have to put the money in as it has been allocated because we require a bit more money for investigations compared with prevention.

Thank you so much, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12 – (Office of the Public Protector – K39,797,473)

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for granting me the opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the estimates of expenditure for 2024 under Vote 12, Office of the Public Protector.

Madam Chairperson, my statement today will be delivered in three parts. I will first highlight the mandate of the Office of the Public Protector. Then, I will provide an analysis of the 2023 budget performance. Thereafter, I will end with the highlights of the 2024 estimates of expenditure.

Mandate of the Office of the Public Protector

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Public Protector is established by Article 243 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, No. 2 of 2016 and operationalised by the Public Protector Act, No. 15 of 2066. The office draws its mandate from Article 244 of the Constitution. The mandate is to:

investigate an action or decision taken or omitted to be taken by a state institution in the performance of an administrative function;

bring an action before court;

hear an appeal by a person relating to an action or decision taken or omitted to be taken in respect of that person; and

make a decision on an action to be taken against a public officer or constitutional office-holder, which decision shall be implemented by an appropriate authority.

Review of the 2023 Budget Performance

Madam Chairperson, in 2023, the office was allocated a budget of K29,860,739 for both personal emoluments and recurrent departmental charges. The allocation enabled the office to achieve the following:

Maladministration Redress Services:

investigated 551 general maladministration cases out of which 262 were concluded;

closed 142 cases;

initiated twelve investigation cases out of which five were concluded;

concluded four of the twelve cases and reports were drafted and shared with stakeholders;

investigated eight systemic cases of mal-administration involving State institutions. The cases are currently pending redress;

undertook nine inspections under the specialised sector-based investigations; and

carried out nineteen awareness campaigns in provinces; and

Management and Support Services;

purchased basic furniture and working tools for officers in the six new provincial offices;

developed the 2022-2026 institutional strategic plan which, will guide the institution’s programming of activities for the strategic period; and

carried out induction meetings for new members of staff to familiarise them with the operations of the Office of the Public Protector and the Public Service.

2024 Estimates of Expenditure

Madam Chairperson, in 2024, the Office of the Public Protector has been allocated a budget of K39,797,473.00. The allocation represents a 33 per cent increase, compared with the 2023 approved budget. The functions of the office will continue to be performed under two key programmes, namely Maladministration Redress Services and Management and Support Services.

Maladministration Redress Services

Madam Speaker, the Maladministration Redress Services comprise three distinct sub-programmes that play a critical role in enhancing the performance of the Public Service, namely:

Maladministration Investigations;

Maladministration Awareness; and

Maladministration Legal Advisory.

Management and Support Services

Madam Chairperson, the Management and Support Services comprise six sub-programmes that are undertaken in order to enhance the effective management of staff, and provision of logistical and material support services in order to facilitate the smooth operations of the institution. The sub-programmes are as follows:

Executive Office Management;

Human Resource Management and Administration;

Financial Management Accounting;

Financial Management Auditing;

Procurement Management; and

Planning, Policy Management, Coordination and Information

Madam Chairperson, through this budget, and in line with the Government’s decentralisation drive enshrined in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), Strategy No.3, the Office of the Public Protector managed to decentralise its operations in a phased manner to six provincial centres as follows:

Copperbelt;

Eastern;

Luapula;

Southern;

North-Western; and

Western.

Madam Chairperson, in 2024, the Office of the Public Protector plans to progressively decentralise its operations to the three remaining provinces, which are:

Central;

Muchinga; and

Northern.

Madam Chairperson, the decentralisation of the office to the provinces will enable people away from Lusaka to access services. Furthermore, the office will establish a call centre with toll-free lines to enable the vulnerable to also access the services of the Public Protector. It will improve the information and communications technology (ICT) infrastructure to enable hosting of electronic case management system, and networking with provincial offices. It is envisaged that the case resolution rate will improve.

Madam Chairperson, the budget estimates before this House will enable the Office of the Public Protector to operate effectively as well as personal emoluments and other outstanding bills. In this regard, I wish to appeal to hon. Members to support them as presented.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to engage in an honest conversation with the Leader of Government Business in the House insofar as the Office of the Public Protector is concerned.

Madam Chairperson, the Constitution of the land establishes institutions of governance and sets out the parameters for how they should operate and their legal powers, including how they should interact with the people of Zambia. The Office of the Public Protector is a non-judicial mechanism meant to deal with administrative actions or decisions that are taken or omitted by public officers.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Public Protector was born from the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016. I have concerns but, from the outset, I would like to state that I support the budget for the office, as it is one of the milestones of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016.

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Kalobo: Yes, you can say “Question!”, but I will prove it to you.

Madam Chairperson, the predecessor office for the Office of the Public Protector was the Investigator-General, which had no powers to initiate cases. Through investigations, the Office of the Public Protector can initiate cases. The previous Government that came up with this kind of legislation, especially the Sixth President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, ...

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kalobo: ... It was telling the nation that it was an open book that could be investigated whilst serving. Secondly, it was telling the nation that public officers under it could also be investigated. That is why it came up with this kind of legislation. So, it is one of the milestones of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016.

Madam Chairperson, in the previous Budget, the proposals that were made were to fund ten educational programmes and fifteen community awareness programmes then. It was also to decentralise the office to six provinces that included the Northern Province, the Eastern Province, the Southern Province, Luapula Province and the Western Province. However, in the policy statement that the hon. Minister has just given, we have not heard him tell us that the department has decentralised. Even on the Copperbelt, where I am from, I have done an investigation and found that there is no allocation for next year, yet there was one for 2023. I have also asked about the Northern Province and learnt that this office does not exist there. So, where did the funding go? Just now, I heard him talk about three provinces; Central Province, Muchinga Province and the other one. What is happening?

Further, Madam Chairperson, regarding educational programmes, there were ten, and we have ten provinces. So, at least, I could have heard about one educational programme, but we heard nothing. However, the hon. Minister has submitted that the department carried out nineteen awareness programmes. The budgetary allocation for awareness programmes in the 2023 Budget was for fifteen. Where did the money to carry out nineteen awareness programmes come from, which we have not heard of anywhere in the constituencies?

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister also told us that the office investigated eight cases in State institutions. In the previous Budget, in terms of what it wanted to investigate, the hon. Minister submitted that for reported cases, it planned to investigate 100 per cent cases and 40 per cent of initiated cases. Further, the hon. Minister has said, in his policy statement, that his office intends to investigate ten cases. Why have the number of cases reduced when the budgetary allocation has increased to K39 billion from K29 billion? Why has the office reduced on initiated cases that it intends to investigate at 10 per cent –

Mr Nkandu: K39 billion?

Mr Kalobo: Yes, K39.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kalobo: K39 million, sorry. So, the allocation has increased by K10 million, yet the office is reducing the programmes. Why is it so? We need the answers.

Madam Chairperson, in that office, the major problem or setback is publicity. It is not highly publicised, but we are appropriating funds for community awareness programmes that are not happening. Where I come from, I have not heard of them. So, where were these nineteen awareness programmes undertaken.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister should prioritise decentralising that office because maladministration, which the office is mandated to investigate and work on, can be detected properly in smaller units. Even the Constitution says that the office shall be decentralised to provinces and progressively to districts. However, we are not seeing that progression. We want to see it so that it becomes easier to detect maladministration. Detection is very important. For example, we have the issue of the Registrar of Societies who has been surrendered. I do not know what ‘surrendered’ means and if it is a new word for firing a person.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, if it is found that officers who surrendered the registrar did not follow the law, …

Mr Andeleki interjected.

Mr Kalobo: … issues of mala fides and procedural impropriety will arise. The hon. Minister should also prioritise awareness programmes because the people of Zambia do not know this office, and they need to know it so that they can be reporting issues. We need those comments.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I support the budgetary allocation and urge the hon. Minister to prioritise awareness programmes and decentralisation of the office so that it is effective in terms of its operations.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Andeleki rose.

The Chairperson: I do not know whether there was a point of order or, maybe, we leave the matter to be addressed by the hon. Minister.

Mr Kalobo: It is okay!

Madam Chairperson: Is it a point of order?

Mr Andeleki indicated assent.

The Chairperson: You can proceed, hon. Member for Katombola.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order, but I have been compelled because of the debate that the hon. Member has concluded.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Minister in order, in view of the clear provisions in Standing Order No. 65, to start talking about the Registrar of Societies, who is a civil servant, without laying evidence to show that he has been transferred or fired? Is he in order to place on the record of this august House matters about civil servants who are being transferred or not because there is no evidence he has laid on the Table?

Is he in order to mislead the nation in that manner?

The Chairperson: I think, the only mistake that was made was to involve somebody who cannot come to this House and defend himself. As far as we are concerned, there is just one individual by that title. So, please, hon. Members, as we debate, let us try as much as possible to avoid bringing people into our debates when they cannot come to this House and defend themselves.

Craft your debate in another way, hon. Member for Wusakile, so that we do not involve people who cannot come to this House.

We make progress.

Hon. Member for Chifubu, you may proceed.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, who is the Public Protector? He or she is an official who is charged with the responsibility of representing the interest of the public by investigating and addressing complaints of maladministration and violation of rights. Surely, this officer is important, and is appointed by the Republican President on the recommendation of the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) later ratified by Parliament. This officer has an important mandate to carry out in our country, as already stated in the policy statement by the Acting Hon. Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Chairperson, there are eminent functions that the office is supposed to discharge. For it to discharge those functions, however, it is important to note that, firstly, the officer in this office has the responsibility to act in accordance with the values and principles that are contained and set out in our Constitution, such as independence. The officer is required to be independent for him or her to act fairly to be a man or woman of integrity. He or she should also inculcate a spirit of impartiality. Of course, he or she must also embrace professionalism and transparency to carry out these duties.

Madam Chairperson, there are a number of challenges our people face that are supposed to be addressed by this office. Firstly, there is unfair treatment, which has become rampant most public offices in as the case was in the last Administration. We saw recruitments that were mainly centred on cadres, yet this office also existed. We had people being recruited because they belonged either to a certain political class or sex. Such are cases that are supposed to be addressed by this office.

Madam Chairperson, there also is segregation currently our country in public offices. We have seen certain recruitments that are based, sometimes, on sex. When you go to urban areas, you find that, maybe, most of the headteachers are female at the expense of men. The office is supposed to see to it that there is fairness in the distribution of our human resources.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Lubozha: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that the Office of the Public Protector is supposed to be independent and that it must observe integrity, impartiality and professionalism in discharging out its mandate.

Madam Chairperson, we have incidents of unfair treatment by some public officers in Government institutions. Sometimes, the public officers have recruited individuals based on a certain political class or ethnic grouping. There are have certain people who are employed in certain (Inaudible). The Office of the Public Protector must come in to protect our people against this maladministration.

Madam Chairperson, when it comes to service delivery in public institutions, our people have been victims. In clinics, hospitals and police stations, they have been unfairly treated by the public officers. You find that sometimes, a clinic opens very late and the officer is very arrogant to the people. Those officers must also be taken to the Public Protector to ensure that this maladministration is eliminated and our people can enjoy better services.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to also talk about prolonged delays. Certain public institutions, such as the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, and the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA), take long to issue documents like drivers’ licences and passports to our people. Sometimes, some demand for nichekeleko. These cases must also be investigated so that we continue to give excellent and outstanding –

The Chairperson: Meaning?

Laughter

Mr Lubozha: Madam Chairperson, ‘nichekeleko’ means “give me a ka something”. The “ka something” is sometimes, money to be given to somebody to entice them to move very fast. Consequently, we have seen challenges of our people failing to obtain the documents that they need, such as licences. We have sent people to driving schools under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) programmes but, they have taken long to get their drivers’ licenses. We have been in situations in which service delivery by our people in Government institutions, such as ZESCO Limited, has left much to be desired. People have gone for five or seven days without power even when there is no load shedding in the country. Sometimes, all cases have bordered on negligence on the part of some of the officers.

Madam Chairperson, with this budgetary allocation, the Office of the Public Protector should up its game to ensure that our people continue to receive nothing but excellent service. That is the desire of the Government of the day. So, if officers in these offices are working against the principles that have been laid down by the Government, then it is unfortunate. It is like they are de-campaigning the Government of the day.

Madam Chairperson, this institution is there to protect the Government and ensure that our people get nothing but excellent, resplendent and exuberating services to our people. Therefore, it is, indeed, important that impartiality is observed in all undertakings.

With the few words, I support the budget.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving the people of Itezhi-Tezhi an opportunity to add their voice to debate on this important Vote for the Office of the Public Protector.

Madam Chairperson, this office is very important because it protects people’s rights, especially the poor people, who seek services from our public offices. I am aware that this office has been in existence since 1974. Therefore, at this point, we need to start showing what success stories have come out since the establishment of the office.

Madam Chairperson, maladministration is a cancer to society. Therefore, the Office of the Public Protector is very important. Maladministration retards development and perpetuates inequality because, normally, it is the lowly people who struggle to access services people such as women and youths.

Madam Chairperson, many Zambians die in silence while trying to access services in most public institutions. As the people of Itezhi-Tezhi, we support this budget fully because we know that it is going to cure the cancer that we have inherited; a very bad mindset in the Public Service in this country. Therefore, this office has a lot of work to do and we need to support it fully to ensure that the people access public services.

Madam Chairperson, there is inherited nepotism in most public institutions. There is also corruption and a lot of negligence, especially in hospitals. We have experienced these things even in my hospital in Itezhi-Tezhi. There is also sexual abuse being perpetuated by people who hold high offices in most Public Service institutions, and there is still segregation. These are some of the issues that this year’s budget for this important office, which has been increased is going to address so that public service delivery is enhanced and the people who desire public services access them with very few challenges.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to comment on the increased allocation to investigations. Investigations are very critical, especially under this office. We are aware that, many a time, the cases that are reported to the Office of the Public Protector take too long to be completed. With this increased allocation, we want to see the investigations are done and the cases disposed of within the desired period of time. I also want to mention that investigations are very expensive to execute. Therefore, the increase in this budgetary allocation is fully supported by the people of Itezhi-Tezhi.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to comment on sensitisation. I am privileged to have had this office go to Itezhi-Tezhi to sensitise the public on issues to do with maladministration, and that tour was a success story. The people of Itezhi-Tezhi were hearing of this office for the first time despite it having been in existence for a long. Therefore, we want to see a lot of money go towards sensitisation activities so that many people can claim their rights in terms of getting better services from the Public Service. We want to see a lot of sensitisation not only in urban areas, but also in rural areas. The office must, as much as possible, get to the rural areas, too. The people in rural areas are the ones who do not even understand the functions of this office. They have no idea where to report any form of maladministration, and that is the reason our offices are being swamped with people who are supposed to report cases to this office but, instead, go to the office of the Member of Parliament or the District Commissioner (DC). Therefore, there is a need to ensure that this institution interfaces with members of the community so that they can report cases to the right offices and the cases can be processed within the desired period of time.

Madam Chairperson, I am aware that last year, we debated the need to decentralise the Office of the Public Protector. I hope, the money that was allocated last year facilitated the decentralisation to the provinces. We want what we have planned this year to be actualised within the shortest period of time and see this office in all the provinces. If possible, it should be decentralised to even the district level so that the services that are offered by it can also be accessed by people in rural districts.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, allow me to also say that we expect this office to improve its administration in view of its new strategic plan. We expect it to have on board young people who are energetic and innovative. We do not expect people who have been there for so many years. We need fresh blood and innovative investigators so that issues can be addressed within the shortest period. We want it to be reporting the cases it prosecutes just like the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is currently doing. Can we have the cases that the office has handled and exhausted shared on social media so that young people can understand the functions of this office and we ensure that the Public Service of this country operates like corporate bodies, where there is efficiency and timely service delivery. The public relations (PR) in the Public Service leaves much to be desired. So, we need to see changes, which can only be actualised by enhancing this budget.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, the people of Itezhi-Tezhi strongly support this budget.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, we wish to place it on record that we do support Vote 12, Office of the Public Protector. In supporting this Vote, we want to place it on record that the allocation, as we have seen it, of about K10 million is, in our view, inadequate, considering the mandate the office carries.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of Public Protector has more or less the same powers as those of the High Court. For purposes of clarity, some of the powers the Public Protector has are the following:

enforcing the attendance of witnesses and examining them on oath;

examining witnesses outside Zambia;

compelling production of documents;

enforcing decisions issued by the Public Protector; and

holding a person or authority to be in contempt for failure to carry out a decision.

Madam Chairperson, one must be qualified to be a Judge in order to be eligible to be appointed to the Office of the Public Protector. We are talking about a very serious office, and the gravity we have given to this institution calls for us to revisit even the allocations that we provide for it. It is our submission that we give more teeth to the Public Protector, who is mandated to investigate maladministration in the Executive arm of the Government.

Madam Chairperson, when we look at the Public Protector Act, we see that the mandate of the Public Protector is limited to a larger extent. It is limited to maladministration and we basically just scratch maladministration on the surface. If the Public Protector is to play the role that he or she must play, we must attach more gravity; more weight, to the work that it carries out.

Madam Chairperson, in buttressing our point, we wish to place it on record that corruption and maladministration are siamese twins. Maladministration is the root cause of corruption. So, it is very important that even as we deal with the functions of the Office of the Public Protector, we make a contrast between the Public Protector in Zambia and the Public Protector we have seen in neighbouring South Africa. In South Africa, the mandate is broad, as it is stated that:

“The Public Protector is a supreme administrative oversight body. The Public Protector has the power to investigate, report on and remedy improper conduct in all State affairs.”

Madam Chairperson, when we come to the scope of the mandate in our Public Protector Act No. 15 of 2016, what is clear is that the mandate is very shallow and narrow. So, there is every need for us to broaden it. There is a need for us to expand the jurisdiction of the Public Protector in this country if it is going to add value in terms of accountability and transparency, and what we seek to do and become as a country.

Madam Chairperson, when we downplay maladministration, what we are playing with is a situation in which your hon. Members of Parliament, for example, are mandated to make statutory declarations and, as the Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya, I am supposed to make statutory declarations, and I will declare the loans I have got with different banks, but we are not demanding the same of Permanent Secretaries (PSs), Directors, heads of quasi-Government institutions or heads of parastatals. That is where administration and maladministration are bred. That is where it happens.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: So, what has happened is that instead of channelling our resources and energies in the right places, when we try to fight corruption, we shoot in all directions and wrong ones for that matter. If a Member makes statutory declarations, it is just for show because the public wants to know how much I, as Member of Parliament, owe a particular bank. However, we know where maladministration is happening. We also know that maladministration goes to bed with corruption. You cannot have corruption minus maladministration, and there can never be maladministration minus corruption.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, I wish to place on record the fact that the visibility of the Public Protector in Zambia leaves much to be desired. Looking at the mandate of the office, there is no reason it must be sweeping the findings of its investigations under the carpet. We want to know. The public also wants to know what the Public Protector is doing. How many cases has it investigated? Which cases are those? Are they high-profile maladministration cases? What corrective measures have been taken? Are there people who are being prosecuted for corruption? The moment that does not happen, people will not even know what the Public Protector is all about. So, we support this allocation to Vote 12. However, going forward, we call for strengthening of the office. Let us give it more teeth and allocate it more funds to enable it to discharge its functions according to the Act.

I submit, Madam Chairperson.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Chairperson, if there is a constitutional office that has been neglected by successive Governments, it is the Office of the Public Protector. The reason is simple: the office investigates the very structures that appoint it and fund it. That is its mandate. That is why it is always underfunded.

Madam Chairperson, this is an office that must be in all the provinces; it must be decentralised. It must also be well popularised even among hon. Members of Parliament. When hon. Members of Parliament are elected, there must be a conversation on the extent of the duties and functions of the Office of the Public Protector.

Madam Chairperson, the House may wish to note that the Office of the Public Protector reports here, to the Speaker. Now, we have not heard of reports submitted from the office for many years. So, I reluctantly support the budget because even when we fund this office, are we giving it enough political support to function? This is an office that must have a fleet of its own vehicles and it must be in all the districts. There is a lot of maladministration in the Civil Service. Just as an example, we have District Commissioners (DC) masquerading as hon. Members of Parliament and we have a lot of indiscipline.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Chairperson, this office is very important. It is important in that reports from that office that are brought to this House must be subjected to oversight by the Legislature. This office is actually an extension of Parliament. If we were to review it, we would see that since the 2016 Constitution, it progressed from Investigator-General to Parliamentary Ombudsman and then Public Protector, but how many reports has it brought to Parliament?

Rev. Katuta: Zero.

Mr Wamunyima: Madam Chairperson, I dare question if there have been serious reports. Therefore, the functions of this office do not just need resource; they also need political support. Why should we have an office that should address maladministration, but there is no conversation with the people who must report cases to the office?

Madam Chairperson, there are people who reach the highest public offices who do not know about this office and its functions. If we ask our colleagues or members of the public if they know where this office is, they will say they do not know.

Madam Chairperson, as I support this budget, I am saying that the money is not enough. We also need to protect that office by amending the subsidiary legislation, which does not reflect the spirit of Article 244 of the Constitution; the subsidiary legislation that should give that office the competence of the High Court. Currently, there is a judgement in which the High Court overruled the Office of the Public Protector. It was in the Indeni Petroleum Refinery case vs the Public Protector case. So, there are many issues behind this. We need this office to work because it provides oversight. So, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to not be afraid to fund the office which should investigate public officers, including members of the Executive.

Madam Chairperson, the reason this office does not have much to reflect on, in terms of what it has achieved, is that it has deliberately been underfunded in the past. So, what has been clear in the days of the week, in the weeks of the month and the months of year is that the office has not been functional.

Madam Chairperson, in supporting this budget, we urge the hon. Minister to add more resources. This office needs to be at the district level. So, we must hear more about its being popularised to the people so that maladministration can be addressed. Further, in supporting this budget, I want to submit that sufficient legal reform and political will augment the functions of the office. When there is political will and when reforms are undertaken, it will be realised that the office needs to be at the district level. It will also be realised that our hon. Members of Parliament need to be told what the Office of the Public Protector does. Our elected councillors, who fail to address the issues that are brought to them by citizens, will be able to communicate to the people.

Madam Chairperson, if this office was very functional, even the conduct that we see in some public offices, whereby some public offices entrench themselves in politics, would not exist.

I want to submit that I unreservedly support this Budget line.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have to make progress. So, I invite the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to wind up debate on this Vote.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to wind up debate.

Madam Chairperson, may I take this opportunity to thank the hon. Members who have debated and supported this budget unreservedly. Hon. Kalobo, Member of Parliament for Wusakile in Kitwe; Hon. Lubozha; Hon. Mutinta of Itezhi-Tezhi; Hon. Chanda; and, finally, Hon. Wamunyima.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to start with the debate by Hon. ‘Kalombo’.

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: Kalobo. Please, pardon me for the mispronunciation.

He emphasised the need to decentralise the Office of the Public Protector. He also wanted to know where we had decentralised to8. I would like to say that we are in six provinces, namely the Copperbelt Province, the North-Western Province, the Southern Province, the Eastern Province, the Western Province and Luapula Province. In the 2024 Budget, we will be expanding to the Central Province, Muchinga Province and the Northern Province. All the provincial offices have staff and offices have been secured. To give examples, because the hon. Member was sceptical about where these offices are, I would like to inform the House that on the Copperbelt, we have an office near the hospital at the roundabout in Ndola on the road going to Kansenshi. So, there is your Public Protector. Please, feel free to go there and ask for services.

Madam Chairperson, in the Southern Province, we are located at JK Complex, which is opposite the Constituency Offices on the road to Choma Hospital. So, we are there. In the Western Province, the offices are located at the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) Building in Mongu. In Luapula, the offices are on the Musenge Road. Those are the locations, and hon. Members of Parliament should, please, feel free to contact those offices and find out more about the activities of the office.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue that the hon. Member raised was on the nineteen awareness campaigns. He was wondering how the ministry had undertaken nineteen awareness programmes when it had planned for less. Essentially, what the office did was be more cost-effective and efficient in the manner it utilised the funds. Furthermore, we are lucky enough that there is some assistance from a partner, Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit (GIZ). So, we were able to do a bit more than was envisaged in the plan.

Madam Chairperson, I think, most hon. Members have emphasised the need to publicise the office. Many citizens do not know its whereabouts, its roles and its functions. We are in total agreement with that. I think, we will do better. We must publicise the office and make the office known to the citizens because it is very important. It clamps down on corruption and maladministration. We take note of that from all the hon. Members, including the last debater, Hon. Wamunyima.

Madam Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members for their contributions and support.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 12 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 34 – (Human Rights Commission – K40,722,307)

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the 2024 Estimates of Recurrent Expenditure for Vote 34, Human Rights Commission.

Madam Chairperson, the Human Rights Commission (HRC), hereafter referred to as ‘the commission, is a national human rights institution with a broad constitutional mandate to ensure that the Bill of Rights is upheld and protected as envisaged under Article 230 of the Constitution of Zambia. Pursuant to its statutory mandate under Section 9(d) of the Human Rights Commission Act, Chapter 48 of the Laws of Zambia, the constitutional and legislative mandate of the commission is to:

investigate human rights violations;

investigate any maladministration of justice;

propose effective measures to prevent human rights abuse;

visit prisons and places of detention or related facilities with a view to assessing and inspecting conditions of persons held in such places and making recommendations to redress existing problems;

establish continuing programme of research, education, information and rehabilitation of victims of human rights abuse to enhance respect for, and protection of, human rights; and

do all such things as are incidental or conducive to the attainment of the functions of the commission.

Madam Chairperson, the mission statement of commission is as presented below:

“The Human Rights Commission as a National Human Rights institution, seeks to contribute to the promotion of full enjoyment and protection of human rights for all people in Zambia; through advocacy and promotion of human rights, investigation and appropriate redress of human rights violations, and monitoring of compliance with human rights standards.”

Madam Chairperson, the commission’s vission:

“An effective, respective, responsive and independent guardian of human rights for all time”.

Overview of 2023 Operations

Madam Chairperson, in 2023, the commission was allocated K32,754,027 only. Some of the achievements are as follows:

Promotion and Protection of Human Rights

facilitated the review of the Human Rights Commission Act to enhance the commission’s mandate;

by end of October 2023, the commission had received a total of 1,519 cases;

the commission also:

undertook inspections of places of detention across all the ten provinces;

held three public hearings in Itezhi-Tezhi, Masaiti and Chadiza districts to address issues relating to the right to land and the rights of the child; respectively;

conducted awareness raising on the Children’s Code Act No. 12 of 2022 in seven provinces; and

had stakeholders’ engagements on the amendment of the Bill of Rights to include economic, social and cultural rights and remove the death penalty;

supported the State during the Universal Periodic Review (UPR) for the 4^th Cycle process, including rendering a specific advisory and convening a stakeholder meeting;

worked with the Ministry of Justice to facilitate a stakeholder dialogue that adopted a roadmap on the National Action Plan on Business and Human Rights;

supported the State in convening a meeting to launch the National Mechanism for Implementation, Reporting and Follow-up, whose role is, among others, to co-ordinate national efforts in implementing, reporting and following up on matters arising from international and regional human rights mechanisms; and

submitted two shadow reports to treaty bodies where pertinent human rights issues were raised for treaty bodies with the State.

Management and Support Services

Madam Chairperson, the commission facilitated orientation of the newly-appointed commissioners. Treasury authority was also granted in September 2023 for seventeen positions to be filled.

2024 Budget Estimates Activities

Madam Chairperson, the functions or mandate of the commission are executed through two key programmes as follows:

Promotion and Protection of Human Rights, which comprises three district sub-programmes of providing investigations and legal services, information, education, training, research and planning. The programme summary estimate is at K20,235,629. The following are the sub-programmes:

Human Rights Education and Awareness;

Human Rights Advocacy; and

Human Rights Violations Investigations.

Management and Support Services

Madam Chairperson, the commission ensures that quality services are provided to the executive office bearers and that there is effective human resource management, and the provision of efficient logistical and material support services to the commission. The programme summary estimate is at K20,486,678.

Madam Chairperson, the sub-programmes are as follows:

Executive Office Management;

Human Resources and Administration;

Financial Management Accounting; and

Financial Management Internal Audit.

Further, in 2024, the commission plans to undertake the following activities:

review and update conditions of service for commissioners and staff;

seek Treasury authority for full implementation of the approved staff establishment;

secure land and build offices for the head office and new provincial offices.

Madam Chairperson, in summary, the Commission’s operational budget estimates for 2024 amounts to K40,722,307. The budget estimates for the commission before this august House will make it possible for the rights of the people in Zambia are respected and upheld as it will go a long way in sustaining the operations of the commission. In this regard, I appeal to hon. Members to support the estimates of expenditure as presented.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote for the Human Rights Commission (HRC).

Madam Chairperson, this institution is very important. However, we have not seen it do what it is supposed to do with most of the cases that have been reported. So, as I support the allocation, I want to urge the officers to follow up on cases that are reported to the police. There could be people who have been arrested or detained in cells for five or six days without being given police bond. If they are given police bond, they go home. That is torture in itself because if someone cannot be taken to court after they have been detained for five or six days, just imagine the problems their families go through. So, the commission should take keen interest in those cases.

Madam Chairperson, the officers who work in the institution are not cadres, but public officers. So, they should deal with issues of human rights without looking at issues through political lenses. They are employed or appointed on behalf of, and for, the people of Zambia. So, they have to serve the people of Zambia without any discrimination in order for them to be relevant to society. If they cannot do that, people will look at them as irrelevant. People are expecting a lot from them where human rights are concerned. People also have the rights to property and privacy and other rights. So, they look to the commission for help for people who are being trodden upon by the powers that be.

Madam Chairperson, I also request the commission to visit some police cells or detention cells so that it can find out why people are detained without being charged or taken to court. Why have they not been taken to court when everyone is entitled to be heard before a court of competent jurisdiction? That is the commission’s mandate.

Madam Chairperson, as I support this budget, I want the commission to perform to the expectation of the people of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I just want to say that I support this Vote, but I also want to reiterate that the commission should not view these issues with political lenses. If it does not do that, then, we are going to appreciate, and it is going to be relevant to our people in the Republic.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this budget on behalf of the people of Chienge. I would have loved to debate especially the Office of the Ombudsman because I thought that institution does not exist in our country. However, the ombudsmen has some common roles with the Human Rights Commission (HRC).

Madam Chairperson, it is very sad that we are wasting taxpayers money on this institution. I say so because the commission enjoys the money allocated to it but does nothing. We only hear statements when it suits the commission. Our rights, including here in the House, have been trampled upon, yet the commission is so quiet.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Rev. Katuta, please, let us avoid debating ourselves. We are not supposed to debate ourselves. So, please, focus your debate on something else. I am sure, there are many examples you can refer to rather than debating ourselves, which is not allowed by the Standing Orders.

You may proceed.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I am much obliged.

Madam Chairperson, I insist that because of what they are doing, these people should be brought to book. The reason is that they do not do what they are supposed to do. We only hear statements that concern high-profile people, especially politicians, though some politicians cannot even make a statement.

Madam Chairperson, the commission is doing nothing to protect and safeguard the human rights of Zambians. For most people to get a passport, it has to take God’s intervention. That is one of the violations of Zambians’ human rights.

Madam Chairperson, as I speak, Chienge does not have tap water, which is a basic human right, yet thecommission is quiet, and it has never said anything. This is why I am saying that funding it is a waste of taxpayers’ money.

Mr J. Chibuye: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, when it comes to education, there are many children from Chienge who want to get student loans and bursaries. The children are in universities, but they have been denied those opportunities. Where is the commission? We have some children who were on scholarships in certain institutions who have been dropped because they come from a certain area. Where is the commission? These are the things we expect the commission to issue statements on and investigate.

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, when we talk about human rights, –

The Chairperson: Order!

There is an indication for a point of order by Hon. Anakoka.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Chairperson, I wish I could render my apologies to my hon. Colleague on the Floor, but the matter I am raising is very serious.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member debating has just made the very serious allegation that in awarding scholarships, there are students who have been denied scholarships purely because of where they come from in this country without laying evidence on the Table.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to make such a divisive statement without backing it up?

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Thank you.

Since the matter is out in the public, I do not know whether Hon. Rev. Katuta has evidence to support what she is saying.

Hon. Rev. Katuta, do you have evidence of pupils or students who have been denied scholarships just because they come from a certain region?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, the issue was in the media. We had about thirty children from Luapula Province who were toy-toying. They have been denied scholarships. That information is there. I have to google it and lay my phone on the Table. The issue is in the public domain. Those children started approaching hon. Members of Parliament from Luapula Province.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Rev. Katuta, there are many issues on social media. Sometimes, what is being said on social media is true and at other times, they are totally wrong. So, we cannot depend on social media. That is why I am asking if you have something we can use as proof of what you have just said so that we make progress. Do you have proof now?

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, thank you so much. It is most unfortunate that it is not on social media, but on Muvi Television Station. Muvi Television covered that matter in the news.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member who rose on this point of order did not even cite the Standing Order that I breached.

Madam Chairperson, even if I am responding –

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, for the sake of progress, you knew very well that you would debate the matter on the Floor. You should have come prepared so that your debate is supported. So, in this case, you do not have the evidence to support what you have just said. So, for the sake of progress, it is better that you withdraw that statement and use other examples.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw, but as long as it is in the public domain, the people of Luapula agree with me.

Madam Chairperson, we are wasting money on the HRC. If you go to a police station and see the pathetic conditions of police cells, you will agree with me and wonder where the commission is? Talk about the way Zambians are being treated today and how our democracy is being butchered, yet the commission has not issued any statement.

Mr Anakoka: Question!

Rev. Katuta: The commission is waiting. So, why should we have it? It should be investigating some of these issues. If the Church issues a statement, we expect the commission to follow up. If a bag of mealie meal is expensive, that is an injury to Zambians.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Rev. Katuta: So, we expect the commission to investigate and safeguard the rights of the people. The cost of living is high, and we cannot just leave it like that. We have heard of so many things that are taking place, such as people being transferred for doing all sorts of things. That is what we are seeing. Many people have been abandoned at the Public Service Management Division (PSMD). They are just drawing salaries from the Treasury. Those are the human rights we are talking about. We are being told that the 400 who are at the PSMD are being asked to retire in the national interest, and some of them are very young. Where is the commission? Where are the officers from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU)? Which offices are they working from? We have the so-called HRC. What for?

Madam Chairperson, the commission urges members of the public to report issues of human rights to it. In Chienge, we have an issue that has been going on, and we have been reporting it. With the little education they have acquired, the people from a certain village in Chienge have written letters, yet no one has come through for them. So, where is the commission? ‘The commission should not be getting taxpayers money. If it was a Member of Parliament or politician taking taxpayers money, he or she would have been told to give it back. It is not only politicians who are stealing from the national Treasury; even the commission is doing that, too.

Mr Anakoka: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I do not support this Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to add two or three statements to this very important debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Chairperson, the Human Rights Commission (HRC) is a very important commission that ought to be respected. So, I support its budget ab initio. For anyone to debate human rights issues, it is prudent to differentiate the categories of human rights.

Madam Chairperson, to start with, there is what we call civil and political rights. Only when you understand the category and what falls under that can you prudently debate. After that, there are what we call economic, social and cultural rights. Again, we should be able to understand the rights that fall under that category. If not, we will misdirect ourselves because we will not know anything.

The third category is that of group rights. Since today we are talking about the budget, let me restrict myself to that. The whole essence or purpose of having the commission is to ensure that people’s rights are respected, protected and promoted, period!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapani: If that is the case, are we now seeing the situation tilting towards that? The answer is yes, compared with the way we lived before. At the moment, every citizen in this country is able to enjoy his or her rights without interference. In the past, we observed situations in which people’s rights, particularly civil and political rights, were infringed upon wilfully. The Government abrogated people’s rights. We have quite a lot of examples that we can cite. However, because of time, it is not prudent or inevitable for me to cite them at the moment.

Madam Chairperson, when I look at the allocation to the commission, I wish more money could be added to it because people’s rights, particularly in the rural set-up, have been infringed upon. People believe that the way they lived before is still the status quo under the New Dawn Government. This is because there is a lack of education or awareness raising.

Madam Chairperson, of course, the budget has been already allocated, but it is my appeal that we allocated more money to this commission. This is because we expect it to go down to the rural set-ups, knowing very well that in any political dispensation, particularly a democratic State, issues of human rights are at the core of society. ‘At the core’ means that people’s rights ought to be respected. People ought to enjoy their rights regardless of their geography or ethnicity.

Madam Chairpeson, looking at the allocation that has been given to the commission, we still expect more. However, we have hope that decentralisation will actually play a part in this issue. Looking at what is happening now at the commission’s offices, we see that we still need to carry out more activities so that people in the rural set-ups can have an understanding of how rights ought to be respected. If we leave things the way they are now, people will think that what happened before is what is still obtaining. However, we now have a Government that is ensuring that freedoms, particularly civil and political rights, are enjoyed by people everywhere. Today, it does not matter which political party you are affiliated with; you have the right of association or freedom of association and assembly. The rights of movement are there.

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapani: Madam Chairperson, we saw how people’s rights were violated before the 2021 General Elections, yet the commission was there. If we really understand why the commission was established by our Acts, then, we know that, now, in Zambia, the democratic space has actually increased.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mapani: It has increased because people are now free to move wherever they want. Freedom of speech is there, and people are able to associate and assemble without any interference.

Further, Madam Chairperson, the citizens in this country, regardless of who and where they are, like I said, regardless of geography, can move from one point to another and no one will come and derogate their rights the way it used to be before. Now, what are we seeing and what do we expect? Of course, we expect more, and I urge the commission to hustle a bit more and ensure that the people in the rural set-ups understand why it was established.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, firstly, the Human Rights Commission (HRC) draws its mandate from the Constitution. The Human Rights Commission Act is subsidiary legislation that was derived from the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, as amended in 2016. That is under Article 230. Secondly, one of the functions given to the commission by the people of Zambia is to ensure that the Bill of Rights is upheld and protected. Thirdly, the commission must investigate and report on the observance of rights and freedoms.

Madam Chairperson, fundamental freedoms are God-given freedoms that we are born with and the HRC must come in to protect us because we live in a world where human beings would want to abuse their friends’ rights to life, such as the rights to coexistence, rights to association and rights to assembly. The HRC must be there to protect the weak in society.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister must understand that where one’s rights end is where somebody else’s begin. So, we must be able to know that if in the past, freedom of association was infringed upon, that is not justification enough to for the people to still be stopped from assembling. Violation of human rights is a violation of human rights. Whether done by Chitotela, Tembo or Hamududu, it is a violation of human rights, and that must be condemned. A violation of human rights is an assault on the existence of God because the human being was created by God and endowed with what we are born with.

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Mr Chitotela: It does not matter.

Madam Chairperson, I do not see those who mistreat other individuals as good human beings to live with regardless of where they come from because that is injurious to the freedom that God created a human being to exist in.

Mr Sing’ombe laughed.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, we must respect one another. We must also protect one another. Today, tomorrow, yesterday, yester year or even in the years to come, human rights violation can happen. We have seen situations in which the President has given a directive that no suspect should stay detained for more than what is prescribed ...

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chitotela: ... in the Constitution or even in the Act once they come into conflict with the law.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Chitotela!

Mr Sing’ombe, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, I am very grateful to you for granting me the opportunity to raise this point of order, which is premised on Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to know whether my fellow elder was present during the previous regime when many United Party for National Development (UPND) members were prosecuted.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Where was he? Why did he not preach to his colleagues to stop abusing UPND members?

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I think, we all know that Hon. Chitotela was in the previous Parliament, and there is really nothing more to add to my answer. He was there and knows what transpired.

So, Hon. Chitotela, may you, please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, I had a platform to speak and I spoke. That is me, and those I am associated with will tell you as much. Whether I spoke in private or public, at least, I had a platform where I spoke. Even now, I have a platform to advise. It is up to those whom I am advising to take my advice or not.

Rev. Katuta: Balekeni bakacimona.

Mr Kabuswe: Question!

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, fundamental human rights give individual rights, such as the right to life, the right to property, the right to privacy and the right to existence. Those rights must be respected. I was saying that His Excellency the President, on several occasions, has spoken to law enforcers to make sure that they investigate whoever comes in conflict with the law. He has also always said that after establishing the case, officers must move in to effect an arrest and, within the prescribed period, present that person before a court. However, the opposite is what has been prevailing. Where has the commission been? Its absence has been felt and the silence has been too loud for everyone to hear.

Madam Chairperson, I want to call upon the commission to make sure that those who violate human rights as enshrined in the Republican Constitution are called to order. We need to live in a normal, just and orderly society where we can coexist as human beings or individuals as One Zambia, One nation. That must not just be a statement; it must be a practical way of living.

Hon. Government Member: Like we are living now!

Mr Chitotela: It is good that the hon. Minister is a good person. Unfortunately, as I said, this is just advice. One either takes it or not, but we will not sit and not advise.

Madam Chairperson, I was saying that if you check today, you will find that there have been some individuals who have been kept in detention for more than five months. Some have not appeared before courts of law while others are detained with visits by their lawyers and the members of the public restricted. Even if you go within the prescribed time, they will tell you that you cannot have acces thus condemning the detainees whilst they are still suspects. Where has the commission been? The commission’s voice has been quiet, and all the people of Zambia can hear its silence.

Madam Chairperson, I want to call upon the HRC – yes, I know, the commission has been moving around prisons and police stations to sensitise people. I am also aware that it has even visited Kawambwa, my district. It was in the North-Western Province and the Southern Province, but visiting and educating is not enough. When the commission hears and sees that the human rights of Zambian citizens are being violated, as a watchdog institution, we expect it to speak out and correct the wrongs. That way, it would be doing the right thing even if its voice is not heard and respected. It would have spoken to the injustices that are being perpetuated by those who are given the mandate to enforce the law and administer justice in Zambia. The commission would have done its part and, even on the day of reckoning, it would say, “Yes, we did what we were mandated to do. We did our part." If those who are charged with the responsibility to protect and safeguard human rights are not doing their job, at least, the commission would have done its part.

Madam Chairperson, as I sit down and support the budget, once again, I want to call upon the commission to do its job as assigned to it by the Republican Constitution.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mrs Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Chikankata this opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this very important Vote 34.

Madam Chairperson, from the outset, I want to say that support the increment in this budget from K33 million in 2023 to K41 million in 2024, which is a 24 per cent increment.

Madam Chairperson, human rights are measured by how much the Government respects the rule of law. Human rights are part of our daily lives. However, the challenge we have had in this country is that they are measured using politicians, not the general populace.

Madam Chairperson, under the New Dawn Government, we have achieved so many things in terms of human rights through the rule of law. Free education is a human right ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: ... because when you are educated, you will know what is right and what is wrong for you. You will know when you are being abused and when you are being treated fairly. It is a human right.

Madam Chairperson, in the recent past, we were in a situation in which people wanted to stop using certain colours because our human rights were being abused by those who were given power to lead this country. When you go around this country, the only people who complain about human rights abuses are politicians not the general populace. Why? This is because politicians look at their interests of getting back power, but the general populace is happy with the human rights situation under the New Dawn Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Chairperson, we have a President who has given the policy direction that all Zambians are equal before the law. This is why he, in line with that policy direction, has given every child free education. We have also been empowered with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). When you are given empowerment, you are able to generate your own resources to live a better life because two of the basic rights are having shelter and food. So, if you have been empowered economically, it means that you have human rights.

Mr Mwene: Exactly!

Mrs Sabao: However, people who are using the platform of human rights to even insult the President and leaders generally. Where we come from, even if you are a leader, you are not supposed to insult anyone who is older than you, but people are abusing human rights in this country, by when they get arrested, they complain. So, as leaders, we should lead by example and educate our children that being a human rights advocate does not mean that you should insult anyone at any time. We should respect our leaders.

Madam Chairperson, we have been given access to many opportunities in this country. I am very surprised that in this era, there are people who are complaining that we do not have human rights when just two years ago, some of us were not even given opportunities to conduct business. Whenever we submitted our names for business opportunities, people check the name to see where we were coming from, and whom we were related to and married to. This time around, businesses are given to those who are qualified to run them, and that is a human right.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: In the recent past, Madam Chairperson, we did not see advertisements in newspapers about various opportunities. In the past year, our children have been employed because there have been advertisements for recruitment under the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Health, Ministry of Education and so on and so forth, and that is what you call human rights because …

Mr Mwene: Exactly. Tell them.

Mrs Sabao: … when those children start working, they will have access to resources to be able to pay for their houses, buy their food and send their children to good schools. Those are the human rights.

Madam Chairperson, as women of this country, we have had a challenge where issues of peace and justice are concerned. When you are a leader as a woman, you are looked down upon. Most men feel like all leadership positions should belong to them. We are supposed to be equal partners in development. If a woman qualifies for a position, give it to her. When a woman makes a simple mistake, the whole world will stand against her, yet when a man does the same, it will be taken as an error. So, as a woman, through the Human Rights Commission (HRC), I urge hon. Members to sensitise the world that women are equal partners in development and that they also have space in this country.

Madam Chairperson, children should be protected, and you can only do that through sensitisation programmes in our communities.

Mr Amutike: Walipya iwe!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Chairperson, many of our children are being abused because they do not know their rights. I, therefore, urge the commission to come up with radio and newspaper programmes and focus group discussion (FGD) programmes in the communities where people can be taught about their rights. At the moment, the majority of our women do not know their rights, and they cannot speak up. When they want to speak up, they are told to sit down because they are women. There is a need to educate our women about standing up for themselves because this country will not develop without them.

Madam Chairperson, where there is no woman, there is no democracy and no development. We need each other for this country to develop. That is why it is important for the commission to sensitise our people on their rights, and that they can participate in decision-making at all levels, including in politics. Even at the household level, most of our women are being abused. There are some men who think that if a woman is a housewife, then, she does not participate in decision-making. Who is taking care of the house? It is the woman. In addition, when the man goes for work and the woman does not cook or do the right things, the man will not enjoy when he goes back home. So, being at home is a full-time job, and a woman should also participate in the sharing of the monthly salary because that is her human right.

Madam Chairperson, I support this budget. However, I urge the commission to go out and sensitise our people on their rights so that they are able to participate fully. The people of Chikankata support this budget without reservations.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Michelo: on a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Michelo: Madam Chairperson, was the hon. Member debating in order to not tell the Zambia people how Sean Tembo, the President of the Patriots for Economic Progress (PEP), was beaten up by Patriotic Front (PF) cadres during the PF Rule when he had the right to freely move around in town?

Madam Chairperson, she also failed to mention that the PF Government had scrapped off the meal allowance from the students at the University of Zambia (UNZA).

Madam Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Sabao, the hon. Member who was debating, was not out of order because she was mentioning what she thought was very important for this particular Vote. So, those are her own views. You cannot force her to say something that you want to be included.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we are running out of time. If we can, let those who are yet to debate use only five minutes each. I know, we are all interested in this matter. So, please, let us just use five minutes each. Then we close this matter.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for giving the good people of Mbabala an opportunity to support Vote 34, Human Rights Commission.

Madam Chairperson, indeed, as I support the budgetary increase, it is an exciting time to have a renewed commission with a board that was recently approved and which includes more members. So, we are going to see more quality things.

Madam Chairperson, riding on the submissions by my hon. Colleagues from Chikankata and Namwala, allow me to say that the human rights of this country were in tatters in the past regime. We saw the brutal killing of our people in daylight, such as Nsama Nsama, Mapenzi Chibulo, Joseph Banda and Madam Vespers Shimuzhila, who was simply studying in her room when tear gas was thrown there.

Madam Chairperson, people are now free. They are able to attend football matches and church services, and move around the street. There is no tear gas being thrown at them. So, our democracy is growing. It is now even more enjoyable for many people. Thanks to the New Dawn Administration and His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, who has made that possible because he has been very categorical about the upholding of human rights.

Madam Chairperson, we can look at social media, where certain people have been deliberately daring the State with a lot of insults. Opposition leaders write many insults everyday just to get arrested. When they are arrested, they cry the loudest and pretended to be very sick as though they will die the following day. However, as soon as they are out, two days later, they change and again, start insulting. Are those the human right we should be talking about? I, therefore, urge the Human Rights Commission (HRC) to hold capacity building workshops for opposition leaders so that it can train them in human rights. As submitted by Hon. Mapani, they need to understand what civil and political rights are. They also need to understand what social and economic rights are as well as group rights so that they can advocate for more important things, such as the economic and social rights that are in our Bill of Rights, which we need to amend in the future when we have a Constitution amendment processso that we can provide free and compulsory education to our young people. Our children are now sitting on desks and learning in classrooms, yet some people want to cry and say that we do not have human rights.

Madam Chairperson, I was just being shown on the Facebook page for the hon. Member for Chinsali, where fourteen classroom blocks are being built and desks are being distributed. Those are human rights restored by the New Dawn Government in Chinsali where those children are going to enjoy quality education. That is what we need, not the noise that we are hearing from our colleagues in the Opposition who are crying over small things that do not matter to this country.

Madam Chairperson, like it has been said, the restoration of meal allowances to our children at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and other universities is an excellent development that restores human rights.

Madam Chairperson, with these words, the people of Mbabala wish to submit that those who want to have their teeth removed because they want to come into politics, indeed, will have their teeth removed, and they should blame themselves for that. They should not cry for human rights.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Madam Chairperson: Thank you for using five minutes. The last hon. Member is Mr Kasandwe. You can do the same so that we conclude debate on this Vote.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, issues of human rights are not ones we should simplify. This is a very serious topic that we need to discuss with level-headedness. It does not matter what political lenses one is wearing because all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and in rights. To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.

Madam Chairperson, human rights do not depend on who says what. There is this trend that is taking root in our society of simply saying “the New Dawn” or “the Patriotic Front”. They have absolutely nothing to do with the enjoyment of human rights. Human beings are born free; all we need to do, all of us, is create an environment and platform in which humans can enjoy their rights of association, freedom of expression and so on and so forth. However, at one point, I was even wondering if we still have a Human Rights Commission (HRC) in this country because of the many abuses that we have witnessed in the recent past.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Chairperson, we have witnessed a number of human rights abuses. I can cite examples because I usually like giving empirical evidence. We saw, not too long ago, how some police officers went to a Former President’s residence to grind open the gate. They also went to Sean Tembo’s house and broke a lock, and the hon. Members who were debating were very selective in talking about abuses of human rights. We have had a number of other individuals who have been killed. Leaving that aside, let me now speak to the human rights. There are so many abuses that we are witnessing. I had the privilege, at one point, to belong to the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights and Governance. We undertook benchmarking tours of prisons and police cells in the southern part of Zambia, and what we saw was not something anyone would like to see. So, I encourage hon. Members to ensure that human rights are respected without fear or favour or without wearing any political lenses at all because human rights are fundamental and a person’s by birth. If we do not respect human rights, as I said earlier on, we will kill the very basis that makes human being human. So, please, as we debate this Motion or budget, let us be above board, wear the lenses of being Zambians and respect one another’s freedoms. People have died in the past and people are dying now. Human rights have been abused in the past and human rights are being bused now. However, what we are urging the commission to do is, as it is given resources, it be blind to political inclinations and protects the human rights of all Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to wind up debate.

The HRC is very important. This has been a very important topic, as has been heard from the debates on the Floor of Parliament. So, we would like take this opportunity to thank all the hon. Members from both the right and the left who deliberated on this very important Vote. We will take their counsel and, I think, the HRC will endeavour to do all it can to ensure that all citizens are properly protected and enjoy their human rights. It is a right, and it shall be respected and protected by the watchdog institution called the HRC. However, I would like to correct certain impressions that were created on the Floor of the House and immediately go to the debate by Hon. Rev. Katuta, the Member for Chienge Constituency, which she calls ‘Shienge’.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member has alleged that this Government has been involved in dismissing workers or civil servants in the national interest like it was previously being done, on a massive scale. That is erroneous and not supported by facts. We know that she cannot produce any evidence at all ...

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: ... because it has not happened. This Government will not do that. I think, the President of the Republic of Zambia has emphasised this. Knowing him, once he promises or says something, he sticks to that, and we have seen it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, the other erroneous allegation, again made by the hon. Member for Chienge, is that students from a certain region were discriminated against in terms of getting higher education loans. This is an alarmist assertion, and it should not be entertained on the Floor of this Parliament because it is false. It only serves to divide rather than to unite this country. Our Government believes in uniting Zambians from all corners of society. This is why we emphasise from the heart when we say ‘One Zambia One Nation’. It is one Zambia one nation, and not one Zambia one side.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to also commend the commission for doing certain things. It has gone to prisons, various schools and other institutions to ensure that citizens know their human rights. It is also taking steps in the right direction by making contributions to the recent launch of the Prisons Audit Report that brought out pertinent issues. This is very important. It is being a watchdog over all institutions. The commission is also advocating for the expansion of the Bill of Rights for the purpose of including economic, social and cultural rights. Currently, the Bill of Rights only covers civil and political rights. This is what the commission is doing, and it should be commended for what it has been doing so far.

Madam Chairperson, may I conclude by putting it on record that this Government respects human rights more than any Government that has gone before it.

Mr Samakayi: Quality!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: We support the HRC to ensure that it plays its role as a watchdog institution.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4140, Sub-Programme 001 – Human Rights Education and Awareness – K5,413,295. Last year’s allocation was K10,703,234. Why the reduction in the allocation? How does the commission intend to carry out all the sensitisation work and hold workshops with such a reduced allocation?

The Chairperson: On what page is that?

Mr Mwambazi: Page 362, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Kindly repeat your question.

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Chairperson, I ssek clarification on page 362, Programme 4140, Sub-Programme 001 – Human Rights Education and Awareness – K5,413,295. Why has the amount been reduced?

The Chairperson: What was the question?

Mr Mwambazi: Madam Chairperson, the allocation has gone down from what was approved in 2023.

The Chairperson: Why has the allocation gone down?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, yes, the allocation has gone down by about 49 per cent. That is a good observation.

The budgetary allocation has been reduced due to the re-alignment of some of the sub-programmes to other sub-programmes under the same programme for ease of implementation.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1843 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 15^th November, 2023.

____________

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