Wednesday, 20th September, 2023

Wednesday, 20^th September, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM KENYA

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following members of the Decentralised Funds Accounts Committee from the National Assembly of the Republic of Kenya:

Hon. Joseph Kahangara Mburu, MP - Leader of the Delegation

Hon. Caroline Jeetoo Ng’elechi, MP - Member

Hon. Mejjadonk Benjamin Gathiru, MP - Member

Hon. Martin Manyonyi Pepela, MP - Member

Ms Sylvia Ocharo Mutabari - Delegation Secretary

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them into our midst.

Karibuni.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: You are welcome.

Thank you.

DEBATE ON THE MOTION OF THANKS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that debate on the Motion of Thanks to the President’s Address commenced on 13^th September, 2023. In accordance with Standing Order No. 19 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, the debate lasts ten sitting days. Therefore, the last day for debating the Motion is Thursday, 28^th September, 2023.

In this regard, and by practice, the last three days are reserved for the Executive to debate and respond to the issues raised by the Backbench. This means that starting from Tuesday, 26^th September, 2023, priority will be given to hon. Ministers to debate the Motion before it is wound up on Thursday, 28^th September, 2023.

Thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR KAFWAYA, HON. MEMBER FOR LUNTE, ON MRS NALUMANGO, THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON THE PRESIDENT NOT ISSUING A STATEMENT AFTER RETURNING FROM HIS TRIP TO CHINA

Madam Speaker: I have taken note of three hon. Members who want to raise matters of urgent public importance. We will start with the hon. Member for Lunte.

Hon. Members, as you state your matter of urgent public importance, please be precise. Do not debate.

The hon. Member for Lunte may proceed.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for according me an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance, directed at the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker, you may be aware that many Zambians, including Opposition hon. Members of Parliament, strongly called on His Excellency the President to travel to China. You will observe that the President –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, now you are debating. Just state the matter of urgent public importance. Do not debate.

Mr Kafwaya: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the President acceded to the public call and travelled to China, and he is back home. After returning, the President has not issued any public statement …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: … to explain the benefits of the trip to China, as was expected by members of the public.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. I have noted the point.

Hon. Member, that point does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. So, it is not admitted.

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ON MR MWIIMBU, HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, ON THE UNZA RIOTS

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, on Monday evening, students at the University of Zambia (UNZA) rioted for close to an hour. Shockingly, the area hon. Member of Parliament has issued a statement accusing opposition political parties –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, now you are debating and introducing other aspects. I suggest that you file in a question, which the hon. Minister can tackle. Since the issue is not widespread, it is not admitted.

Can we make progress.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

GOVERNMENT POSITION ON FUTURE OF FISP

Madam Speaker: I have permitted the hon. Minister of Agriculture to make a ministerial statement –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we will break that ring seated there; from the hon. Member for Petauke Central extended to the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. The hon. Member for Nkana was not involved.

Laughter

Hon. Member: He wants to win an award.

Madam Speaker: As you can see.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to deliver a ministerial statement, on a subject that has generated national interest regarding the Government’s position on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) in the 2023/2024 Agricultural Season and beyond. In addition, this ministerial statement has been necessitated by a matter of urgent public importance raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde Constituency, Mr Luka Simumba.

Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate intentions of phasing out FISP. Rather, the Government, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mtolo: … working with –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us listen to the statement. That is why we miss the point. Can we listen and then you can ask questions. Take down notes.

May the hon. Minister proceed.

Mr Mtolo: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate intentions of phasing out FISP. Rather, the Government is working on improving its operations. The targeted number of beneficiaries is the usual 1,024,434.

Madam Speaker, in an effort to promote crop diversification, as well as food and nutrition security, the Government has widened the choice of crops on the programme to include maize, soybeans, groundnuts, rice, common beans, cowpeas, sorghum and sunflower.

Madam Speaker, the Government procured 120,380.25 metric tonnes of D Compound Fertiliser of which 110,003.65 metric tonnes, which represents 91 per cent, has been delivered. I repeat: The Government procured 120,380.25 metric tonnes of D Compound Fertiliser, which is the fertiliser we apply first, out of which 91 per cent has been delivered across the country already.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, with regard to urea, eight suppliers were awarded contracts for the supply and delivery of the 120,380.25 metric tonnes. I would like to underscore the fact that no contract has ever been cancelled and as we speak, the delivery of urea has commenced.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the implementation of FISP has, over the years, contributed to the surplus figures recorded for maize, which is our staple food. However, despite the achievements attributed to the implementation of FISP, the programme has been hampered by a number of challenges which include the following:

poor targeting of beneficiaries;

malpractices by some officers and stakeholders entrusted to implement the programme;

blanket fertiliser applications, which in some cases has resulted in the wastage of inputs;

the lack of a beneficiary exit strategy and an alternative financing mechanism to support beneficiaries who may wish to graduate from FISP; and

low levels of yields recorded by some beneficiaries.

Madam Speaker, in view of the outlined challenges, the Government of the Republic of Zambia has embarked on FISP reforms, with the aim of improving the implementation of the programme and its overall contribution to the development of the sector and the economy as a whole.

Madam Speaker, the Comprehensive Agriculture Transformation Support Programme (CATSP), will guide the agricultural sector going forward, and the reforms will extend to FISP. The proposed policy measures and instruments are aimed at transforming all programmes to bring out the potential to stimulate growth in the agricultural sector, including FISP.

Madam Speaker, within CATSP, the Government will prioritise the transformation of FISP into an efficient and smart subsidy that enhances agricultural production and productivity and ensures all beneficiaries are adequately supported to graduate to higher levels of production. The proposed reforms of FISP under the framework of CATSP will include the following:

measures to enhance the targeting of FISP beneficiaries, which will also include the strengthening of beneficiary identification through biometrics and other options. This is currently being implemented;

the introduction of a graduation strategy and an alternative financing mechanism to support farmers who will graduate from FISP. This is where the credit window will apply. It will be affordable agricultural credit;
measures to promote increased private sector participation in the supply and distribution of farming inputs;

measures to reduce malpractices;

measures to promote and accelerate agricultural diversification through the implementation of more crops on FISP. As earlier indicated, eight crops are now on FISP.

measures to improve the productivity of FISP beneficiaries through enhanced extension services; and

measures to target the right crops in the right ecological zones.

Madam Speaker, in the 2023/2024 Agricultural Season, the eligibility criteria for one to qualify to receive inputs under FISP will be as follows, and this will address the question which was raised yesterday:

should be a member of a registered farmer organisation and selected by the Camp Agriculture Committee;

be a registered small-scale farmer and actively involved in farming within the camp coverage area;

cultivating not more than 5 ha of land;

have the capacity to pay back;

prescribed farmer contribution of K400;

not employed by the Government, public institutions, and not in formal employment;

should be a Zambian and possess a green National Registration Card (NRC);

should have an active phone number;

not benefitting from a similar Government programme such as the Food Security Pack under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services; and

each household will be entitled to one pack only.

Madam Speaker, going forward, and given that the production from FISP is subsidised, it will be a requirement for farmers on FISP to sell part of their surplus harvest to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) in order to boost the national strategic reserves. I repeat: Going forward, and given that the production from FISP is subsidised, it will be a requirement for farmers on FISP to sell part of their surplus harvest to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) in order to boost the national strategic reserves. This year, the proposal for farmers on FISP to sell their surplus production has been applied as an added advantage. However, in subsequent seasons, it will be a requirement for all farmers participating in FISP to sell part of their surplus produce to the FRA.

Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia remains committed to the implementation of FISP as it is a viable means of increasing access to quality and affordable inputs in the country. As you will all agree, FISP has contributed to the national food basket and the livelihoods of many beneficiaries since its inception in 2002.

Madam Speaker, I wish to conclude my statement by re-affirming the Government’s commitment to increasing food security in the country. Among the many interventions that can actualise this aspiration is prudent implementation and enhancement of FISP.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Agriculture. I can see the passion with which you want to discuss the subject.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, some of the major reasons the Patriotic Front (PF) Government amended the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act was to deal with challenges in procurement, including corruption. Under the current Act, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) is supposed to provide for what is called price indexing to deal with overpricing. The challenges in the current procurement of inputs in the past three years have been due to pricing.

Madam Speaker, my question is: Is the Government strictly adhering to the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act or is it relying on the guidance from other offices in this procurement process?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, procurement cannot be derived from any other office, but from the prescribed chapters to that need. I am extremely proud to let the hon. Member, the Leader of the Opposition, know that in the 2022/2023 Farming Season, the Government saved US$153.4 million because of prudent mechanisms put in place to procure fertiliser.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, this year, for the current fertiliser which is being rolled out to the different depots, we have saved US$107.4 million.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, it is no secret that we have procured our D Compound Fertiliser at US$880 per tonne and we have procured our urea at US$846.25 per tonne. This is extremely way below the projections and price index position of the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA).

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleagues who represent rural constituencies were asking me why I would ask this question when I represent an urban constituency. We are most affected –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much and kindly allow me to apologise to my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana, for disturbing his line of thinking. However, this point of order is important and is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, which states as follows:

“A member who is debating shall –

...

ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Madam Speaker, on 28^th July, 2023, the hon. Minister of Agriculture came to this House with a ministerial statement. In responding to a question posed to him by Hon. Menyani Zulu, here is what the hon. Minister said:

“This is where the FISP is moving. Forty-three districts are on Electronic-Voucher and I would like to take this opportunity to say that Zambia should know that this FISP is slowly going to erode. It is slowly going to be reduced. It is slowly going to be taken out. We are working towards giving cheap loans to farmers so that we can deal only with serious people.”

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, today, comes and says that there is no immediate plan of eliminating the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), when earlier he had said that FISP was going.

Hon. Government Members: Slowly!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to contradict himself? The immediate is a plan. It is not the execution, but a plan he is talking about, and the lawyers do not understand the English language.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not debate your professions because people will start debating your profession as an accountant.

Mr Kafwaya: Absolutely, Madam.

Madam Speaker: I am also a lawyer. So you are targeting me as well.

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, there are good lawyers and bad lawyers.

Madam Speaker: Get to your point.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to come, today, and tell the nation, through your House, that the Government has no intention to eliminate FISP when, in fact, he came earlier and said that FISP was going?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Slowly!

Madam Speaker: Let me compare the two statements. I reserve my ruling so that I understand the wording of the two statements. I am sure we have a copy on record already. So, that document does not need to be laid on the Table of the House. So, my ruling is reserved.

May the hon. Member for Nkana continue.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, my question is very simple. Those of us in urban constituencies depend on an efficient agricultural sector and one that ensures that we are going to have favourable prices of our essential commodities, and in this case mealie meal. In the statement by the hon. Minister of Agriculture, he mentioned that the Government has attempted to address one factor of production, which is fertiliser. He has said that it has been reduced from what it was fetching last farming season to US$850 or US$880, there about.

Madam Speaker, if I am not mistaken, yesterday, I saw a newspaper article that stated that suppliers are refusing to supply fertiliser at the said US$880 per metric tonne. They are insisting that they want to supply the fertiliser at US$1,000 per metric tonne. I am not sure if the hon. Minister of Agriculture is aware of the newspaper article that alleged that statement by the suppliers. If that be the case, what is the position of the Government? Will this, then, not disturb the flow of the supply or distribution of fertiliser?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that very important question.

Madam Speaker, our interest at the Ministry of Agriculture is to make agriculture affordable and pleasant so that we can have more production. Once we produce more, all the teething problems we are having will erode.

Madam Speaker, our role is to support the farmer. The farmers are being supported effectively by the ministry because of the good producer price that we are giving them at K280 per 50 kg bag of maize. As it is, no supplier whatsoever has refused to supply fertiliser to the Government. Fertiliser is being supplied. I would merely call the statements we are getting from the newspapers as alarmist documentation, which we should be careful with, as hon. Members of this esteemed House. I have not seen that newspaper. We rely on everyone in this House to tell the people the truth. It is up to the hon. Members to choose whether to listen to their Minister of Agriculture, their true servant, or to listen to extremists who are producing things which are meant to alarm the public.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I have no apology whatsoever because what I am telling the hon. Member of Parliament is actually the truth. These innuendos that people cancelled contracts and that people are refusing to do this and that are all false or not true. The hon. Member was at my office this morning and how I wish he had asked to see the contracts. I was going to show him the contracts.

Finally, Madam Speaker, the price we are offering of K800 is now a relatively good price. The beauty about Zambia now is that if you go into a shop, you can actually buy a bag of fertiliser at about K600 to K700. Ours will be at that price because people have to move it to different localities and wait for the farmer to collect it, et cetera. So, there is always a little bit of margin there. So, fertiliser is available at a good price for you to grow crops. I am urging everyone in this House to participate in production, including the hon. Member for Nkana.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Madam Speaker: I was going to say that, maybe, the hon. Member for Nkana does not have land and that he will need to see the Minister of Lands and Natural Resources to give him a portion of land.

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kolala (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said it will be a requirement for all farmers under Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) to sell their produce to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). Are we going to see the hon. Minister being proactive by opening up more depots in the constituencies and see an increase in the FISP allocation to farmers in the rural areas?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the answer for depot opening is a very loud yes. Even now, any hon. Member who says he/she wants a depot at a certain place, I will open it up immediately, and they will attest to it. As a Government, we will just go there and instruct the FRA to open them up.

Mr Sing’ombe: I am beneficiary.

Mr Mtolo: Yes, there is a beneficiary there. Dundumwezi is a beneficiary and many more. So, yes, we will do that. I repeat: Going forward, all those who are benefiting from FISP will be required to sell their surplus crop to the Government because this crop is heavily subsided. Let us give back to the Government that which you have been given freely.

Mr Kambita: Hear, Hear!

Mt Mtolo: So, it will be a requirement. This year, we are only making the farmers aware, but next year, for you to be a beneficiary on FISP, you need to show proof that you sold your surplus crop to the agency.

Madam Speaker, in terms of allocation, the hon. Member did not say what allocation should be increased, so I am unable to respond to this one.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, thank you very much and I thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Chibuye: The hon. Minister mentioned, in his statement, that 1,024,434 people have been benefitting from Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Roan!

Hon. Members these points of order derail our proceedings. I know you have a right to raise points of order, but let us limit them.

Hon. Member for Chinsali, what is your point of order?

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, as you are aware, I do not like rising on points of order. However, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, where we are required to say things that we can substantiate and that are factual. When the hon. Member for Lufubu, asked the hard working hon. Minister of Agriculture a question, he insinuated that the hon. Minister is not proactive, when in the actual sense, he is proactive in all areas including –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You are out of order. Can we make progress and not make assumptions.

May the hon. Member for Roan, continue.

Mr J. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture stated, in his statement, that 1,024,434 people have been benefitting from FISP the past farming seasons, including this and next year’s farming season. I want to know why the number remains static at national level at 1,024,434. In Luanshya District; Roan Constituency and Luanshya Constituency, we had 9,021 beneficiaries from the previous farming season. Now, we only have 7,500 beneficiaries. Where have the 1,500 beneficiaries gone to, if at national level the number has remained static?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, during the course of last year, the ministry revisited the number of beneficiaries countrywide. Certain provinces like the Copperbelt, suffered a reduction which went to certain areas like the Western Province, which had extremely low numbers. So, the numbers have continued being realigned and the system being improved so that areas that have been absolutely disadvantaged by having few beneficiaries can have more. That is an on-going process and it will continue being thus. If the hon. Member wants, I can inform him that in 2021, as Copperbelt Province, it had 102,452 farmers who benefitted, and this number was reduced to 93,686,000. This could have been the probable reason some of the areas in his constituency could have been affected.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for being proactive and that he has made savings. If we look at the price of D Compound Fertiliser in the last farming season, it cost about US$1,137,000 per metric tonne and now the Government bought at US$880. However, you have also made a loss. In March when you ran your advertisements, Urea Fertiliser cost about US$670 per metric tonne. Now, as we speak today, it has gone to almost more than US$758. What interventions has the Government put in place to ensure that it procures timely? If you look at 150,000 metric tonnes by US$670, it is US$100,500,000. Today, it will be about K132 million. So, you are losing about US$31,500 million in terms of the difference from March until today because the price of fertiliser does not remain static. As we are approaching the farming season, the price keeps going up. So, what measures has the Government put in place to ensure that it mitigates that gap?

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa for that very clear position.

Yes, Madam Speaker, the prices of fertiliser are always changing. Depending on when you buy, you can buy at a low or high price. In this case, we are overly happy that we have saved a US$100 million. The answer is in not procuring this fertiliser. The answer is in producing this fertiliser in the country, and then we will be able to harness the benefit. The hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa is capable of putting up a plant in this country. I am encouraging him to put up a plant and I will write him a letter that the Government will buy from him due to positive discrimination, which we are very proud to engage in.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A deal has been struck.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, the greatest of enemy of the hon. Minister of Agriculture is his mouth.

Laughter

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, you can recall that we were told here –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nakonde.

What did you say? I missed what you said.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I stated that the greatest enemy for the Minister of Agriculture was his mouth.

Laughter

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, you will recall that we were sent from here to go and inform people in our constituencies and prepare their minds on the Government phasing out the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Today, the hon. Minister has turned 360 degrees.

Mr Sing’ombe: Va chinja kaili!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, the question to the hon. Minister is whether he is going to apologise to the people of Zambia, including the people of Nakonde, for misleading, especially those of us who went and delivered that information to our people. Is he able to apologise now so that the people of Nakonde do not think that I am the one who misled them because I delivered the information that the hon. Minister of Agriculture sent.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of Agriculture, do not apologise but explain whether that is the correct position.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I have before me here (while waving a paper), the statement that I gave to the House. I can read it. It is from Parliament.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, this is what I said.

“The release of free seed and fertiliser to beneficiaries is not doing us any good. We are now transitioning slowly, but effectively so, to giving very cheap concessionary loans to our farmers and we should as we go out there in our constituencies, start informing our constituents and our farmers that beware FISP … ”

Hon. Opposition Members: Is being phased out!

Mr Mtolo: “… is being phased out but done so gradually.”

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Here (waving a paper). It is very clear.

Madam Speaker, I stand again and I will repeat what I said.

Mr Tayengwa: Repeat it gradually.

Mr Mtolo: I will repeat.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Listen very carefully, through the Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: We, as the Government, are looking at giving cheap agricultural credit to our farmers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: That is the future.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: However, you cannot do these things just like that. You need to do it gradually.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtolo: Go out there ye and inform the farmers that we are going to slowly phase out FISP.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we listen quietly, hon. Members.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, arising from Standing Order No. 65, a fact has to be verifiable. That is what the Standing Order states. Now, the hon. Minister is confusing the State.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: In fact, I pity him. For him to repeat the words ‘phasing out’, he is confusing the listeners.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, if it were me, I would not have said, “I said phasing out slowly”.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to repeat that, slowly, he will phase out the Farmer Input Support Programme?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, is he in order to contradict himself?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Members, the hon. Minister is articulating Government policy on this matter. So, if he says, “the Government phasing out gradually”, it is not the same as saying, it is phasing out immediately. So, that is the Government policy. From the statement that he read on that day, and the statement that he read today, there is no contradiction.

Hon. UPND Members: hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, hon. Members, let us listen.

I have even made a ruling on the matter that was raised by the hon. Member for –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Yes.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Let us listen.

May the hon. Minister, continue.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, let me put it this way. There is a programme through which we are giving out free seed and fertiliser. We are saying that the programme is going to go side by side with the agricultural loans, the credit window. Between the two, the one which is preferred is the credit window. This is a fact. It does not mean that we are cancelling FISP. I never said it. I am happy, and I am not even saying it today. The FISP will be running but we are going to concentrate more on the credit window. Slowly, but surely ...

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: … FISP has life.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mtolo: Yes, slowly but surely, FISP has –

So, Madam Speaker, no matter how the hon. Members would like to put it, I stand firm on this and I would like to reassure the House that what I said has not changed. I am saying it again, today, that the two programmes will run concurrently, but the one we are going to put more effort on is the credit window.

Madam Speaker, I cannot put it any better than that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malambo (Magoye): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a question. On behalf of the people of Magoye, I want to find out how soon the ministry will start distributing basal dressing fertiliser to farmers. I just want to know how soon that will happen.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very refreshing question.

Madam Speaker, right now, we have commenced and are allowing farmers to deposit the K400. As hon. Members leave the House, can we call our constituents and tell them about this.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mtolo: Yes.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, through you, I urge the hon. Members to call their constituents.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Order, Hon. Member for Petauke Central.

Interruptions

Order, hon. Members!

I am sure, hon. Minister, the people are listening. So, even if the message is not relayed by our hon. Members, the message is still clear.

May you proceed.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I am shocked that my good friends on the other side of the House are refusing to support their constituents.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Call them, as much as we will do so at the ministry. Join us and let the constituents know that they should start depositing the K400. It is for our good and the good of the country. Immediately that is done, by the middle or towards the end of next month, we should start giving out fertilisers to the people because they would have paid their K400. It is a very important question from the hon. Member.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: As you can see …

Laughter

Madam Speaker: … I have added fifteen minutes to this segment.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, allow me to wear glasses ( put on sunglasses) before asking him the question so that his answer on this matter should be very correct.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member.

There is no sunlight in the House.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: We want to see your eyes. Please, remove the shades.

Laughter

Mr Mutale took off the sunglasses.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, when explaining the challenges in the management of the Food Input Support Programme (FISP), the hon. Minister mentioned that one of the challenges is malpractices and he admitted that, indeed, there are there. I want to find out from him, as it has always been put that the United Party for National Development (UPND) is a Government that upholds the law, how many people have been arrested, so far, over the malpractices he has brought to our attention.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I have not brought along figures because I did not anticipate that we would have that type of question, but I can confirm that there are malpractices. For example, in Chipangali, a constituency in the Eastern Province, and next to Chipata District, there were officers who were involved in abusing the scheme and were arrested. There was also a private member, who was not a Government officer but was holding onto fertiliser, who was also arrested. Hon. Members who took heed the guidance we gave to report such people to the police are experiencing serious issues related to this in a couple of areas. For example, in Itezhi-Tezhi, I can confirm that there were people who were taken to the police. So, I can confirm that, yes, some people were arrested. Even this time around, any Government officer who will be found tampering with this process will be reported to the police. I am appealing to hon. Members to report such people to the police, especially now, because we gave them authority to have access to documentation of FISP.

UPND Members: I am appealing.

Mr Mtolo: So, I sincerely appeal –

UPND Members: I am appealing.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: I am appealing that we get the people who mischannel resources arrested.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask a question to the wise Minister, Hon. Mtolo Phiri, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central.

Madam Speaker, history is the best teacher. I remember that some years ago, we had a similar challenge of shortage of mealie meal and maize in the country during the leadership of the late former Republican President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace. The Government had to increase the number of bags of fertiliser in a pack from form six to ten. Is the New Dawn Government thinking in those lines? Since we do not have maize, it can, maybe, increase the number of bags of fertiliser in a pack from six to eight so that, at least, next year, we can have bumper harvests in Petauke Central, and Zambia as a whole.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, a similar question was asked sometime back and I responded very clearly that it was difficult to adjust the number of bags of fertiliser in a pack because once we pass the Budget, here, and the FISP figures go through, it is very difficult to change them. However, we are commencing the credit window this season. Therefore, farmers who are interested can now get money because we will get funds. I will come and give a statement when we are completely ready. Farmers can go and get money. There are very affordable loans, specifically for agriculture, that they can use to buy as much fertiliser as they want. So, I would like to say that we will not give out loans on this programme, but only through the credit window.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to ask a follow up question on the wonderful statement by the hon. Minister of Agriculture. I wish to congratulate him on the statement and for the savings that he has mentioned. We are now seeing prudence in the management of national resources …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: … and that is what we want to see in line with the policy of the New Dawn Government.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that some of the people benefitting from the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) Programme are vulnerable people who are given some predictable cash from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services for them to survive. Basically, that is survival cash. However, from the statement and on the competing Government programmes, these people are being left out from the Fertiliser Input Support Programme (FISP) or the Comprehensive Agriculture Support Transformation Programme (CASTP). Could the hon. Minister clarify why these people are being left out because we would like them to come out of vulnerability? If we give them funds under the SCT, it will keep them going. So, we also need to put them on FISP so that they can actually come out of vulnerability and then they can be phased off the programmes later. I would like his clarification.

Madam Speaker, further, we are very happy in Mbabala and we are ready for the credit scheme once he tells us when it will open because we want to get the loans.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, the clarity is that, firstly, a person who gets funds under the SCT is not stopped from getting inputs under FISP. However, those who are given fertiliser under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services cannot get fertiliser, again, on the FISP.

Madam Speaker, secondly, let me take advantage of this to let the hon. Members know especially the Leader of the Opposition …

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: … that there is a false document going round saying that the Ministry of Agriculture is giving a K200,000 grant. That is false and it should not be tolerated. If anyone gets in touch with you and says, “Please, pay this money to this account”, just report them to the police so that they get arrested. I am seriously appealing to the hon. Leader of Opposition to inform my colleagues on this very issue.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam, as you can hear from the questions from the hon. Members, it is now becoming very difficult for them to engage farmers with information that they will be able to appreciate.

Madam, the hon. Minister was just talking about the tender, which was floated in March. Standing where he is, he made an assurance that the procurement of fertiliser, this year, was going to be concluded in the first quarter of the year, but we are in the third quarter. The statements he brings keep changing positions, thus making it very difficult for farmers to plan. Worse still, he has failed to break down the 1,024,434 beneficiaries that have been consistent from 2021 up to this time.

Madam Speaker, what has happened is that there are more clubs that have been created and this has created a challenge for the Comprehensive Agriculture Support Transformation Programme (CASTP) to distribute even the input he is sending. All hon. Members of Parliament who represent rural constituencies will attest to the fact that because of adding to the more than one million farmers, there are more farmers that have been brought on board through cooperatives. This is posing a challenge in distributing the inputs.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: This is a matter that relates to food.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, these are very critical issues and that is why we are buying mealie meal at K350.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, ask your question. Please, do not debate.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, how is the hon. Minister going to harmonise the 1,024,434 farmers plus those in the new co-operatives that have been created so that all them can benefit? If this is not harmonised, we are going back to farmers sharing fertiliser in amameda. This is imminent and the hon. Provincial Ministers should be proactive and help him deal with this matter.

Madam Speaker, I want to hear the hon. Minister clear this matter so that we can know what to Madam Speaker, I want to hear the hon. Minister clear this matter so that we can know what to tell the farmers, otherwise, it is becoming difficult to give information to our farmers.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I will respond to this question with the seriousness that I saw the hon. Member pose the question. I want to put it very clearly that if he is not going to take what I say and give it to the constituents, but give them what he wants then he will be causing the problem.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, I have said it before and I am going to say it again that we are going to keep FISP constant, but we are going to increase the credit window. It is as clear as that and I have not changed. For the 1,240,434 farmers, I can give him the breakdown. How can I fail to give the breakdown when I am the one who is carrying the figure? Let me give him the breakdown of province by province.

Province No. of Farmers

Central 162,711

Copperbelt 93,688

Eastern 194,543

Luapula 61,804

Lusaka 59,188

Muchinga 65,152

Northern 93,315

North-Western 67,973

Southern 183,375

Western 37,684

Madam Speaker, that is the breakdown. That is the transparency that the New Dawn Government brings. If any hon. Member feels that the figures are not in line with their thought, they are free to come to the ministry so that we discuss and give the scientific position on how they was generated.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I cannot fail to give a breakdown. I could further give him the breakdown area by area in his constituency because we know and plan how to take fertiliser there.

Madam Speaker, secondly, I have stood on this Floor so many times and said, “Do not allow our members to share fertiliser”. You cannot break a tablet for a headache and think that you will heal if you are going to get a quarter of it. You need to take a full tablet as prescribed by the doctor. In this case, we are the doctors and we are saying, that is what you should use.

Madam Speaker, we have opened the credit window. Those who will not benefit from FISP, please, let them use the credit window. It is going to be a very affordable facility. I can assure you that the interest rate will be less than 12 per cent. That is as good as giving a free service. However, we want them to pay back so that we can have a revolving fund.

Madam Speaker, which country can afford, year in and year out, to give out US$300 million, US$400 million or US$500 million? That is what is crippling the economy. We need to do things properly.

Madam Speaker, this answers the question by the hon. Member for Nakonde. Is it Nakonde? Sorry, I forget the constituency.

Hon. Government Members: It is Nakonde.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, he had asked and it led to my response that time, which I have referred to this time. We are looking more at the credit window.

Madam Speaker, FISP will continue, but it will be static.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I had extended the time for this segment by fifteen minutes, but it is clear that many questions are still pending. I would encourage the hon. Members to engage the hon. Minister, interact and offer alternative solutions to the problems. In that way, we will do better.

We have to make progress.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

INCLUSION OF ALL VILLAGE HEADMEN/WOMEN ON FISP

36. Mr Lungu (Kapoche) asked the Minister of Agriculture:

whether the Government has any plans to include all village headmen/women, countrywide, on the Farmer Input Support Programme;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) has no quota allocation to any specified category or grouping. The programme caters to all eligible Zambians, including village headmen/women, using a very well stipulated criterion.

Madam Speaker, as mentioned in part (a) of the question, the FISP has no quota allocation. As such, all the Village Headmen and Women are eligible if they meet the criteria. If they are on salary, the answer is no. However, if they are not on salary, it is yes.

Madam Speaker, the ultimate aim of FISP, at inception in 2002, was to ensure sustained food security at both household and national levels regardless of status in society for all Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lungu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this great opportunity for the people of Kapoche.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I want to say that in the various constituencies that we represent, our headmen and women look after the people who vote for all of us here. Suffice it to say that if a village headman or a headwoman does not cater for his/her people through the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), they are not respected by the community. In my constituency, a number of headmen and headwomen formed co-operatives in order to access inputs under FISP. However, up to now, each time they want to register with camp officers, they are not given a chance to access the fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, I am very surprised to hear from the hon. Minister that everyone is eligible to access this fertiliser, which is true, but I do not know why in my constituency headmen and headwomen cannot access the fertiliser. My question to the hon. Minister this afternoon is whether he could he find a way through which our headmen and headwomen could access fertiliser through the District Agriculture Coordinators (DACOs)? What is he going to do to make sure that the headmen who belong to co-operatives access fertiliser? Yesterday, I sent some people to the constituency, and the headmen complained about this issue.

Mr Mtolo: Madam Speaker, this afternoon when I was giving my statement, I gave a list of what qualifies someone to be a beneficiary of FISP. So, I want to sincerely guide the hon. Member that headmen do qualify, but they should meet the conditions as stipulated. They should have a green National Registration Card (NRC), a working phone and et cetera. Otherwise, there is no reason they should be segregated against. In fact, we are very happy to give inputs to people such as headmen because we know that they will sell their produce to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). with the credit window now, especially we know that they will pay because of pressure.

Madam Speaker, so, I ask the hon. Member to see us at the ministry so that we can resolve this matter. Unfortunately, this is happening. However, they surely do qualify to get the inputs because they are not on salary.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I see that there are many indications. I think, we have done too much on agriculture and the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) today. So, let us make progress as I have said, hon. Members, please, do engage the hon. Minister. We still have the orders of the day and we have a Motion to debate. You will need more time on it.

So, let us make progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF SPECIAL EDUCATION COLLEGE

37. Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata) asked the Minister of Education:

when the construction of the Zambia Institute of Special Education College in Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency will be completed;

what the cost of the project is;

how much money had been spent on the project, as of March 2023;

at what stage of completion, in percentage terms, the project was, as of March 2023; and

who the contractor for the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker, the Zambia Institute of Special Education College (ZISEC), in Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency, will be completed in 2024-2026 Medium Term Budget Plan, subject to availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the project is K31,242,602.99, broken down into two phases as follows:

phase I has a contract sum of K14,713,918.30, involving the construction of a library, lecture theatre and two double-storey lecture room blocks and ancillary works; and

phase II has a contract sum of K16,528,684.69 for the construction of external works.

Madam Speaker, K12,463,160.60 had been spent on the project as of March 2023, and the project was at approximately 52 per cent completion as of March 2023.

Madam Speake, the contractor is Yangts Jiang Enterprises Limited.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, the said project started way back during the Movement for Multiparty (MMD) era. Our colleagues who vacated power in 2021 then abandoned the project sometime in 2014. As the Minister stated, the work has been done up to 52 per cent. So, I want him to explain because what we have seen in Kabwata on that project is that people have already started using the facility even before the works are completed. So, I want to find out whether the Government has given out the certificate of practical completion for people to be allowed to start using that facility.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, let me be categorical. The construction of infrastructure is a very serious business. When things are not done properly, it can pose a danger to life. That is why certificates of completion are entered into very seriously to ensure that facilities that are completed will be safe for people to use. At 52 per cent, there is no way the Government would have issued a certificate of completion for people to move in.

Madam Speaker, in any case, as the hon. Member of Parliament stated, one of the reasons this project has been pending is that it started during the rule of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). When the MMD went out of office in 2011, our colleagues took over and it has continued to pend. The status, at the moment, is that the current contractor, the one I mentioned, Yangts Jiang Enterprises Limited, went into liquidation and the contract is in the process of being terminated because of the liquidation of the contractor. The ministry has plans to engage another contractor to complete the remaining works. As stated, this will done from the next financial year – 2024, and within two years, we should be able to complete it.

Madam Speaker, as I stated, in Phase I, the contract sum was over K14 million for the construction of the library, lecture theatre and two double-storey lecture room blocks. In Phase II, the contract sum was K16.5 million for the construction of external works.

Madam Speaker, there have been payments due to interim payment certificates (IPCs). I have that tabulated. However, the commitment is that within the next financial year, the hon. Member will see work being done on this facility to ensure that it is completed.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the people who are occupying the facility, the ministry will investigate. If people are there illegally, action will be taken.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity once again.

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Minister has been to the site and looked at the structure itself, it is a sorry site because most fittings have either been vandalised or stolen. The infrastructure looks like it was built way back in 1987 or the 70s. What measures is the Government going to put in place so that people do not continue vandalising the property and stealing the remaining fittings?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, this is the problem that we, as a nation, face when projects are not completed in time; they become subject to abuse and vandalism. In the case of schools and health facilities that have been left pending for a long time, we have seen instances of them being vandalised. So, it is a nationwide problem and that is why, as the New Dawn Administration, we have clearly stated, as a matter of policy, that going forward, no project will be approved until such a time when there is funding or budgetary allocations, and there are disbursements to support the completion, or construction. That is one of the ways in which we will make sure that vandalism of uncompleted structures does not take place. What I can assure the hon. Member is that the Ministry of Education will go and make an assessment on two things; the level of vandalisation and those who are occupying it illegally. However, the main commitment of your Government, the New Dawn Government, is that within 2024, work will start, in earnest, to complete this very vital facility.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MEASURES TO ENSURE THAT ALL GOVERNMENT OFFICES AND BUILDINGS ARE MADE ACCESSIBLE TO PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

38. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services what measures the Government is taking to ensure that all Government offices and buildings are made accessible to persons with disabilities.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo) (on behalf of the Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms D. Mwamba)): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has put up measures to ensure that all Government offices as well as buildings are accessible to persons with disabilities through the following:

the Government enacted the Persons with Disabilities Act No.6, 2012, which facilitates independent living and full participation of persons with disabilities in all aspects of life by ensuring that they have equal basis with others and access to physical and other facilities open and provided to the public, both in urban and rural areas.

Madam Speaker, this is enforced through the Zambia Agency of Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD), which is mandated to ensure that minimum standards and guidelines for accessibility of facilities and services open or provided to the public are accessed by persons with disabilities. In addition, the agency prescribes universal design in the development standards and guidelines for public buildings, to this effect, ZAPD has appointed inspectors in every province who are mandated to inspect all buildings, including Government offices in order to ensure that they are accessible to persons with disabilities;

the Government, through ZAPD, with the support of the International Labour Organisation (ILO), is in the process of developing accessibility standards for Zambia. An advertisement for a consultant to carry out these works has been done already and an evaluation of bids was conducted awaiting finalisation of this process;

ZAPD, through the inspectorate, has continued to conduct accessibility audits and just last week the agency conducted an audit, here at the Parliament Buildings. The audit findings will be availed once the report is finalised. Inspections will be extended to all Government offices and buildings to enhance compliance;

the ministry has drafted the Statutory Instrument (SI) on infrastructure, which is, currently, under review by the Ministry of Justice. This will ensure effective enforcement of existing disability laws and policies to access new and existing infrastructure in line with prescribed guidelines; and

the Ministry is, currently, reviewing the National Disability Policy to further strengthen measures of accessibility to buildings and other facilities for persons with disabilities. This is in order to ensure that persons living with disabilities can realise their aspirations, enhance their independent living and participate more actively in building our society.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response he has provided. I was actually requested to ask this question by the head of the disabilities association in Chinsali because most Government buildings in that district, with the exception of the recently constructed ones, do not have accessibility for those who have disabilities just as in many other areas, for example, the police cells at Balmoral Police Station and Chilenje Police Station. So, I would like to find out when we are expecting those inspectors to go to Chinsali to inspect the buildings that do not have flexibility when it comes to access for people with disabilities, and when do we expect the Government to start working on modifying them so that they can easily be accessed by people living with disabilities?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for that important question that is attending to people that are disadvantaged in our society and, through him, we thank the sender, the head of department in Chinsali, and to assure the sender as well as all concerned parties that this Government takes this matter seriously, hence, my comprehensive answer when I gave my maiden response.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member also indicated that they want to know when the inspectors are going to go to Chinsali. This will sit in the work programme. As I indicated, the intention is already there and in certain areas, inspections have already started and it is a question of us putting it on the schedule. However, at this point in time, I do not have the schedule of when the inspectors are going to go to Chinsali to make sure that there is compliance.

Madam Speaker, he also referred to Balmoral Police Station as well as Chilenje Police Station. The two are single storey buildings that require only a ramp for differently abled people who may be in conflict with the law. However, clearly, it is an important undertaking that he has embarked on, and this Government, being serious, will make it possible by, say, the next five years to ensure that most of the buildings have this facility in ramps to allow wheelchairs to convey persons with disabilities. Also, to indicate that there has been serious neglect, as a matter of fact, by those that were there before us. We take this matter very seriously and this is elucidated by my maiden answer that we are doing everything possible to make sure that elevators are accessible through ramps in all the new and old buildings.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chinsali, are you satisfied with the responses?

Mr Mukosa: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Since you are satisfied, we can make progress.

LEGALISING PART OF SETTLEMENTS ESTABLISHED BY TRADITIONAL LEADERS IN FOREST RESERVES IN MKUSHI NORTH CONSTITUENCY

39. Mr C. Chibuye (Mkushi North) asked the Minister of Green Economy and Environment:

whether the Government has any plans to legalise part of the settlements established by traditional leaders in forest reserves in Mkushi North Parliamentary Constituency;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

which settlements will be legalised.

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu): Madam Speaker, in answering this question that touches on any other forests throughout the country and in many constituencies, I would like to really quickly lay the background that forest reserves in Mkushi, like many other forest reserves in the country, are extremely important as they provide essential ecosystem services, including provisioning services. These being food and water, supporting services, meaning soil formation and water cycle as well as regulating services, these are flood and disease control.

Madam Speaker, most importantly, the forest reserve in Mkushi forms the foundation of the economic and social development of Mkushi District. For example, these forest reserves in Mkushi form the lower and upper Lusemfwa catchments that are the sources of major rivers and streams found in Mkushi District, including Mkushi River, itself, Lusemfwa, Mushibamba, Chibefwe and Tembwe.

Madam Speaker, the forest reserves and catchments described in the foregoing form the foundation upon which Mkushi District is able to provide clean water and sustainable sources of drinking water for more than 54,000 residents, irrigation water to produce more than 44 per cent of Zambia total wheat crop and support a large hectarage of farm land.

Madam Speaker, additionally, these forest reserves and catchment in Mkushi supply consistent water flows required by the 40 MW Lusemfwa Hydropower and the planned 330 MW Muchinga Plant. However, in recent years, the forest reserves have faced unprecedented threats from encroachment such as illegal mining, cultivation and illegal cutting down of tress. These activities have resulted in rampant deforestation and forest degradation with significant negative consequences for economic and social development of Mkushi District.

Madam Speaker, coming directly to the question, I would like to state that given the importance of the forest reserves in Mkushi District, the Government has no plans whatsoever to legalise part of the settlement illegally established by traditional leaders in forest reserves in Mkushi North Parliamentary Constituency. If anything, the Government will evict households which have encroached into the forest. To show that this is our policy, we have managed to evict twelve illegal miners in North-Swaka Forest Reserves and fourteen in Mkushi Forest Reserves between October 2022 and March 2023.

Madam Speaker, the answers to part (b) and (c) of the question follow the same; that the Government has no plans to legalise settlement and that the Government, obviously, will not legalise these forests because they are protected forests and they are protected for the reason given above.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated in his response that the Government will actually swing in and, maybe, evict settlers in these forests. When do we expect the Government to move in and evict the settlers in these encroached forests?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I would really like to call upon the hon. Member of Parliament and all my other fellow hon. Members of Parliament to really treat this matter very seriously because of climate change, our very survival is at stake. However, indeed, evicting anyone is not in the best of our interest or Government’s. We have been singing and, obviously, particularly advising our traditional leaders, who have now found a lot of comfort in settling amongst our people, even going to the extent of forming villages in these forests. Their actions are illegal and they are a threat to our survival. We have a stark choice. Do we go on and worsen the negative effects of climate change? The protected forests, as articulated earlier, are protected because they provide essential ecosystem services; water security, food security and energy security, which are anchored on good forest management and good environmental sustainability. The choice is ours. However, I want to call upon my fellow hon. Members of Parliament that the issue of climate change and the issue of environmental sustainability are key issues on which we must all pronounce ourselves.

Madam Speaker, to answer directly when we will evict them, I want to remind our people throughout the Republic of Zambia, that Zambia has more than 750,000km squares of land, yet we are only 20 million in this country. The pressure should not be on protected forests. The pressure actually should be on traditional land.

Madam Speaker, further, I would like to encourage my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to have discussions to Hon. Nkombo over the issue of encroachment. I have had many discussions with him on this matter. The pressure of encroachment on these forests is not only from our people but also from the councils. Forests cover only 7 per cent of our land. We should look to the traditional land. I want to encourage my fellow hon. Member of Parliament from Mkushi to educate and inform our people that the protected forests are protected for their own good and for the good of all of us.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, hearing the way the hon. Minister has stressed the important role our traditional leaders would play in the forest management effort, I wanted to find out whether his ministry has had engagement with them through its more appropriate fora like the House of Chiefs, just in case they are not able to follow the proceeding on this important subject we are having this afternoon.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to take advantage to bring to his attention, again, about the wanton exploitation of forest in Chiawa Zone that I brought earlier to his attention, but it is still going on. Even as late as yesterday, I was receiving disturbing pictures of the massive forests that are being transported out of that region. So, what is the ministry doing practically to address that issue in the chiefdom?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I want to inform the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue that earlier on, the ministry came up with what is called an Advocacy and Communication Strategy to communicate issues of climate change. In that strategy, traditional leaders were put at the centre.

Madam Speaker, we have engaged traditional leaders, including the Chairperson of the House of Chiefs, Chief Chisunka, in particular, who has been very supportive in this cause. Just today, I was with Chief Nyampande and many other chiefs from the Eastern Province. There are champions in Chief Machiya’s area and everywhere. Some traditional leaders are really with us on this call and they are doing all they can to ensure that they help us preserve our forests. However, there are also some who are involved in illegal activities and we call upon them to stop. We recognise the important role traditional leaders play in environmental sustainability and in forest protection because they and their people live in the forest. Effective natural resources management cannot be there or sustained without the full participation of our traditional leaders and if they are listening to me, we thank them for their good leadership, but we would request that they do more. Without them, we cannot succeed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I believe we are planting trees, but others are cutting them down. It is so sad. However, as I was going to Mongu, I was a bit concerned about the number of people that have encroached or have taken over the left side of the Kafue National Park. As you drive through, you will find a lot of charcoal along the road, but when you look at the economic status of those populations or communities it has not changed, yet if we look at our forest, through carbon trading, we will be able to make much more money. I think it is upon all of us, hon. Members of Parliament, to sensitise and work together with the chiefs to encourage people to look after the forest and get more money out of it than to cut trees. That is just my observation because I am also very passionate about this.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, you cannot put it any better than you have done and we thank you for that leadership. Lastly, I call upon my fellow hon. Members of the Parliament, even as we debate the Budget, to provide us with more money. We all, including Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya, have seen the devastation in Mumbwa. We have seen the devastation. The same zeal and strength with which we debate other issues should be applied on this issue. Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya should raise the points of order he does on deforestation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Mutotwe Kafwya for listening to me.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I think, the hon. Minister is just trying to get another friend. So, do not worry.

_______

MOTION

CREATE SEPARATE POLICE CELLS FOR MINOR OFFENCES

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offences.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the people of Lumezi, through me, are extremely grateful for having permitted them to move a motion that is non-controversial. Permit them to equally mention that they are very grateful that you have allowed them to sit in a Committee for National Guidance and Gender Matters –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, please, let us go to the Motion. We do not have much time. Go to the Motion. I think, the issue about which Committee is now water under the bridge. We will cross it again next year.

May you proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, we are guiding our colleagues in the Executive. The rationale behind this Motion is very basic, very simple to a common man to listen, to understand even to a common woman. The laws of Zambia have classified offences into two categories, we have felonies and misdemeanours.

Madam Speaker, speaking to the notes that have been shared with the Research Department and to realities, gives me an impression that I am going to speak to two issues today. I will speak to the law and I will speak to facts.

Madam Speaker, you can imagine a situation where someone is arrested for inducing a boycott, like we saw at the University of Zambia (UNZA) the other night, and is taken in the same cells with murderers. One trespasses on a railway line and they are taken in the same cells with drug addicts. We can imagine a situation where, because we suspect that Her Honour the Vice-President had abused her office during her stay in power, she is arrested and taken into an ugly cell with junkies –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members for Lumezi, please, do not use examples that are not factual. That is not a fact. State factual positions as you debate. Stick to your Motion. Do not debate or give an example of any of the hon. Members in here.

Mr Munir Zulu: With your guidance, Madam Speaker, I will cite myself as an example then.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, not even yourself. Just debate your Motion.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I love to speak to the future. Even in my younger days, somebody told me that I have the gift of the god. The chances of people being detained unnecessarily whenever there is a change of regime are high. It is not right –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, please, stick to your Motion. You are not sticking to the Motion. How does change of regime come into your Motion? It is not there. Just stick to your Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I do not wish to engage in a debate with you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, that is not even allowed. Just stick to your Motion. I am giving guidance. Stick to your Motion. I am sure this is not the first Motion that you are moving in this House. So, just stick to your Motion, as guided.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, this Motion is very basic; very simple. The notes that the Research Department has given me are purely meant to guide my submissions on this Motion.

Madam Speaker, we must speak to the future. We are not speaking to the past, neither are we speaking to the ills of yesterday. We must be predictable, and we must plan what will happen tomorrow and what will not happen. It is not right –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, once you start speaking about the future, it amounts to speculation. I am sure you brought up that Motion because of what you have gone through or what you have perceived. So, stick to those issues. Do not speculate.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am not speculating, as a matter of fact –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, this is not a discussion between you and I, I have guided and, please, be guided accordingly. Please.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, permit me to speak to the law. If we have difficulties with facts, I will speak to the law. Section 38 of the Penal Code Act, Cap. 87 of the Laws of Zambia, provides for the general punishment for misdemeanours as follows:

“When in this Code no punishment is specially provided for any misdemeanour, it shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or with a fine or with both.”

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service does not have or provide separate cells –

Mr Haimbe, SC.: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, the point of order is in pursuance to Standing Order No. 65(1) (a) and (b) in relation to relevance.

Madam Speaker, the portion of the Criminal Procedure Code that the hon. Member is citing relates to imprisonment of persons who have been found guilty of an offence. The Motion, on the other hand, is speaking to police cells and pre-conviction detention. So, the question is: Is the hon. Member in order to debate on matters which are not relevant to the Motion on the Floor of the House?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, as you debate, please, stick to the Motion. You are talking about people who have not yet been found guilty. You are talking about people in police cells. So, stick to that and debate on people who have not yet gone through trial, but awaiting trial. Do not extend the discussion to people who have been found guilty. Remember – I do not even want to go there because I will end up being a debater also. However, I am guiding. Maybe, let me say that there is a presumption of innocence for everyone. So, that is a leakage I have given you.

You may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, for once, I thought I will not have points of order raised because I was speaking to the law. I am not speaking to facts now, but speaking to the law. Any person –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, as you speak to the law, make sure that it is relevant to the Motion. Relevance is the issue here.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I have cited the Penal Code. I am not citing my authority. I am citing the law.

Madam Speaker, we must be sincere with ourselves. Of course, I knew there would be interjections, but not to this extent. Regarding this issue, I have seen a woman giving birth in police cells because she is being kept in the passage. This was a woman, and not a man, in the passage. This is from my experience. It is a fact, not the law. We must be sincere with each other for the betterment of all the citizens in this country, even for the betterment of the people in Lumezi.

Madam Speaker, I see no reason a murderer, a drug addict and an aggravated robber should be held in the same cells with people who are suspected to have abused office. For abuse of office, people will be arrested for two days pending investigations, but they go into police cells with hard-core criminals. They go in the same cells with street adults. Others call them street kids. These people will beat you up and then we should be here saying we should enjoy the same status?

Madam Speaker, even the punishment levels at law are different. They vary. If you are a murderer, it is possible that you will be sentenced to life imprisonment. Others enjoy two years imprisonment. For others it is a suspended sentence. So why should a person who came into Parliament with a question mark, and is arrested for being in Parliament illegally, be in the same cells with hard-core criminals?

Madam Speaker, yes, you have guided that it is speculative to speak to the future. I am not a Jewish prophet and I do not claim to be one, but speaking to the future, there are some people who will be inconvenienced one day for purely being here, going by the different rulings that have come from the Constitutional Court. So, we cannot pretend that we are going to subject the hon. Members on your right and left hand side to the same cells with hard-core criminals such as a murderer or drug addict.

Madam Speaker, let us be sincere.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just for me to understand, at what point is a person declared or found to be a hard-core criminal? Maybe, as you debate you can address that issue.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, if I am arrested for a suspected murder case, I will be detained and then I will be in the same cells with hard-core criminals. Just to be very diplomatic and with a lot of respect, if today you accused me of having committed murder, I will be in the same cells with hard-core criminals that you cannot even want to share a cup of water with.

Madam Speaker, this is an issue that I have seen and we must separate other suspects from hard-core suspects because some suspects are pocket thieves. Some are suspects of murder. So, why should we purport that on this issue, we should all be subjected to the same treatment? It might have happened to me. Tomorrow it will happen to anyone of us in here and we will say, “Why did we not do the correct thing?”

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Madam, it is a convention that if you are discussing a matter that involves you or you may be directly affected by, you must declare an interest. It is a fact that my younger brother, in whom I am well pleased, Hon. Munir Zulu, has been a client of the police cells in the recent most times as a suspect.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: He has, sometimes, been a surety for someone who has stood in or someone who has skipped bail.

Madam, my point of order dictates that I also declare an interest because I personally have been a victim of the subject that he is trying to bring on the Floor of this House. I have been in jail under his erstwhile friends, who governed this country for ten years. I was put in remand –

Rev. Katuta: What is the point of order?

Mr Nkombo: I just declared an interest. When I was remanded in Livingstone State Prison, I was placed with fifteen people who were serving capital offence sentences such as aggravated robbery, murder and defilement. I am now out on a nolle prosequi.

Madam Speaker, firstly, is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to not declare an interest and state that there is an interest he is serving, so that if any time soon he is called in as a client of the police, he must be given special treatment? If he is in order, I will graciously take my seat. My instigation to raise this point of order is to simply request him to declare an interest on this matter.

Madam Speaker: I believe the hon. Member for Lumezi was duly guided when we started that we should not debate ourselves. However, he did not declare interest.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, do you have any interest to declare in this matter?

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, unfortunately, I have no interest to declare, but permit me to use my last few minutes, because the clock is ticking, to make my submissions.

Madam Speaker, the United Nations (UN) Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners, among other things, provides that persons in prison for debt and other civil prisoners shall be kept separate from persons in prison by reason of a criminal offense.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members on your right, especially those in the Executive, are the champions –

Madam Speaker: Do not debate other Members, hon. Member. Give other examples that are allowed within our Standing Orders.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, to be a champion of the rule of law, demands that you respect the tenets of the UN.

Madam Speaker, we cannot pretend, and we are speaking to the people of Zambia. Tomorrow it may happen that I will be on the other side. I would not want to be subjected to the ill treatment of what takes place when you are inside the cells, where you cannot, as a matter of fact, have appetite to go the bathroom.

Madam Speaker, we must be sincere with ourselves. We must learn to say, “This is progressive and this is not progressive”. This insulates everyone; the Zambians who are not in the Chamber and Zambians in the Chamber.

Madam Speaker, in the interest of time, ...

Madam Speaker: Wind up, your time is up.

Mr Munir Zulu: ... I wind up. Thank you. I will come back.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, as I second this Motion, I want to declare that I have no interest to serve in this matter. It is purely seconding based on the merits that I have found in this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for having allowed me to second this Motion that has been ably moved by my hon. Colleague from Lumezi, Hon. Munir Zulu. Allow me to commend him for the able manner in which he has seconded this Motion.

Madam Speaker: Seconded or Moved?

Mr Mukosa: Sorry, moved this Motion. The hon. Members are making too much noise so they are confusing me, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us listen to the seconder of the Motion.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, thank you for the intervention.

Madam Speaker: Proceed.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, as you were guiding, you mentioned the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. That is one fundamental principle on which I stand to second this Motion. We have, sometimes, people who are suspected to have committed offences which can be referred to as minor offences, such as over speeding. Another offence could be of having failed to, maybe, pay or do what is required by the police then a person is put in the cells where a person who is suspected of being bisexual has been put. So, you find that in such a situation, people now start fighting to sleep near the wall so that nothing happens to them while they are sleeping. So –

Madam Speaker: Order, Hon. Member, is this from experience or you are speculating?

Laughter

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, it is not from experience, but from real life and the complaints of the people that come from the cells. Like you said, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. So, no one should serve any sort of punishment. Now, you find that when you are in the cells –

Mr Haimbe, SC.: What punishment?

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice is asking what punishment it is. When you are in the cells, and something happens to you at night then you will have served the punishment already before being found guilty. So, it is not fair on the part of the suspect.

Madam Speaker, in other cases, you would find that there are those who are relatively minors, who are young, maybe, aged sixteen or eighteen and they have a future; just a University student. Like the example that was given by my hon. Colleague that a person may have, maybe, participated in some kind of riotous behaviour or something like that at school, and he is put in a cell with people who are suspected to be hard-core criminals. Some of the things that those who may turn out to be the real hard-core criminals do in the cells traumatise people. Sometimes suspects are innocent, and by the time they come out, they are traumatised. Some of them are actually abused and they fail to recover from the experiences that they face while in the ...

Mr Haimbe, SC.: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa: ... cells.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, I really tried to restrain myself from rising on this point of order, Standing Order No. 65 (1)(b), on relevance and the content being factual. The entire debate by the hon. Member is all based on speculation. There is no factual position that is being put forward. Is the hon. Member in order to be debating in that fashion?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we debate, as guided earlier, let us remember to stick to the Motion and be factual. Let us not make assumptions, speculations or base our debate on hearsay. Let us be factual. Let us stick to the Motion. The Motion is straight forward. Just debate the Motion.

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, whatever I am saying is factual and it is relevant. I just hope my learned brother, the hon. Minister of Justice, will not gag debate –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chinsali!

Now, you are challenging the ruling. Just debate, as guided.

Mr Mukosa: Thank you Madam Speaker, with no intention of challenging your ruling, my point is that –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chinsali, just debate. Do not make a comment on that issue of the ruling or what I have said. It will amount to doing the same thing.

Mr Kalobo: Umm.

Mr Mukosa: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Wusakile, that ‘umm’ will land you outside.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Chinsali continue.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I was saying that all of us, including the people who are outside there, are potential suspects of various crimes, starting with the smallest offences to big ones. Some of them think that they cannot be called a suspect. We see people being arrested for committing various offences. Some of them can be arrested for bigamy. In our culture, you will find that sometimes people marry two wives. However, if you marry while you have a marriage certificate from the civic centre, there is nothing like you are Minister of Justice or whoever; you can be called a suspect.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are now speculating and bringing in the hon. Minister of Justice in your debate without giving any facts and somehow accusing him of being involved in some bigamy arrangement. So, do not give examples that you cannot verify.

Proceed, as guided.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I cannot bring my learned hon. Minister into this debate. He is not into such things. I meant the Minister of Justice, maybe, in Zimbabwe or other countries.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: That is why we are saying you are speculating. Do you even know who the Minister of Justice is in Zimbabwe?

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, it is just figurative.

Madam Speaker: Let us stick to the Motion.

Mr Mukosa: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chinsali, actually, you need to withdraw that statement you made in reference to the Minister of Justice on the issue relating to bigamy. Withdraw and apologise.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I withdraw and I apologise that he will be called a suspect for bigamy. He will be not called. I have no justification to say that.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Anyway, proceed.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, so my point is that there is no harm in establishing separate committing cells for those who have been arrested for offences that are relatively simple and that can be seen to be minor.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the good people of Petauke Central, through me, the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this non-controversial Motion that has been moved by the Member of Parliament for Lumezi, Hon. Munir Zulu. In fact, his Motion will save other people in future, as potential clients.

Madam Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion. In fact, it is a very good one. In our country, there has been regime change.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours

_______

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, can we try to be punctual next time.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that this Motion is a non-controversial one. It should be supported by any hon. Member who is wise and progressive.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, before putting my notes together, I conducted research.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, in my research, I found that this Motion is very important in our country because it is going to serve Christian values. You find that a person who is alleged to have committed an offence and is a victims of political persecution is taken –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There are so many movements and caucuses.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you may continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, you find that when a person like the hon. Member for Dundumwezi, in the future, is charged and becomes a victim of political persecution –

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, do not involve other hon. Members in your debate. We are not supposed to debate ourselves.

You may continue with your debate.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, in Zambia, we have been changing Governments. As we have been changing Governments, in my research, I found that every time the Government changes, there is usually political persecution. It is good that the Hon. Member for Lumezi has brought this Motion so that, in the future, it should not happen because another Government which will take over from the New Dawn Government will not start political persecution. After all, they know that minor cases will have separate cells.

Madam Speaker, it is unfair when someone is just being persecuted and then he is taken into the same cell as someone who has committed aggravated robbery, murder or drug trafficking. In Petauke, tukamba kuti uka tola nshaba zoola, ukazitwila pamodzi, zonse nshaba zuola. So, Madam Speaker –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean, hon. Member? We are supposed to use English. Otherwise, you are supposed to translate what you said in vernacular.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, it means that when we get those people who have committed minor offences and take them to the same cells with people who are drug abusers, they will be the same. That is according to the research.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: So, you can do your research to find out.

Madam Speaker, in this Motion, the hon. Member for Lumezi has not only thought about himself, but is also being futuristic. He is thinking for the future. He is protecting other members for the future because, you know, many people here have had weddings. In our country, many people marry through weddings and go to the city council to do a nice paper for the wedding. However, if tomorrow, let us say someone is accused of bigamy and that person is in the same cells with hard-core criminals, that is not good. So, I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi is trying to save other members who may find themselves guilty of bigamy like some colleagues we know.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: In fact, they are supposed to be the first ones to support his Motion because tomorrow, it will be them who will be inside together with hard-core criminals. They are supposed to appreciate what the hon. Member for Lumezi has brought to this House. I am not expecting any person, especially those who have had white weddings, to oppose this Motion because –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Like I guided, please, do not involve other members in your debate. Mind you, many Zambians are listening and many of them had white weddings. The important thing for you is to stick to the Motion and not the person who brought the Motion to the Floor. State why you are supporting the Motion on the Floor. I think that is very important. Support your Motion with facts.

You may continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am well-guided.

Madam Speaker, why the good people of Petauke Central are supporting this Motion is to avoid the situation where politicians, especially those in the Government, feel that to punish another politician is to take them into police cells.

Madam Speaker, why the hon. Member for Petauke is supporting this Motion is that we should have separate cells for those who have committed minor offences and those who committed major offences. All of them, according to my research, are innocent until proven innocent by the court of laws. Meanwhile, as we are awaiting trial, the offenders should be kept in separate cells.I can see that even those who want to have a backward mind of shooting this Motion down will remember this Motion whilst they are inside. I am sure of that.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Take it easy. Do not debate while seated, and I do not know why –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Continue, hon. Member. You are addressing me and not the hon. Member there. It is through me.

You may continue

Mr J. E. Banda: In fact, I am sure the hon. Member for Dundumwezi is also a potential of bigamy.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No! Please, hon. Member for Petauke Central. I have already guided. Otherwise, I am going to curtail your debate. You are not supposed to involve other hon. Members. You are even mentioning the hon. Member’s name. That is not allowed.

Hon. Members, are we serious about this Motion? It does not look so, especially the hon. Member on the Floor debating.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, can you, please, be serious so that people from Petauke Central will, maybe, support you or they will understand what you are talking about. They do not know the hon. Member for Dundumwezi. So, can we, please, stick to the Motion.

You may continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you and well-guided.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the good people of Petauke Central are in support of this Motion. Before I came here, I consulted them and the people of Zambia at large and they all support this Motion because they do not want suspects with minor offence to be mixed with people who committed serious offences. When you put suspects with minor offences with those with serious offences, they go and commit serious offences immediately they are released from the cells. So, to prevent that, we should have separate cells for those who commit minor offences. In short, I support this non-controversial Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

As earlier guided, let us stick to the Motion which again says:

“That this House urges the Government to create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offences.”

It is either we support the Motion or we do not support it. Let us follow that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I want to start by taking the Motion away from the individualistic and emotional domain that other people want to pour it in. I want to establish that this Motion is talking about arrests and when one is arrested as s suspect. When one is arrested as suspect and according to our laws, what takes base is Article 18 in the Bill of Rights. That is my starting point. Therefore, I want to take it from the individualistic domain to a collective domain. In Bemba, we say, ‘Umulandu mume. Bakumpula fye’. This means that all of us are prone to committing the so-called ‘minor offences’ referred to.

Madam Speaker, when we look at this Motion, it is a very serious one which, unfortunately, has been trivialised in this House. It is serious in that when we are looking at this Motion that would have given flavour to create a Minor Offence Act, as it is in Fiji, Barbados and Malaysia. What we are trying to agree upon here is that when one is arrested, one is not yet guilty. According to our maxim of justice, as I quoted that article, when one is not guilty and has been arrested for a minor office ˗ I think the Penal Code has separated the minor office from the major offence by the terms that have been set by other people. If the Penal Code has separated the minor and major offences, though the minor offence is not properly defined in the Penal Code because it just carries a small sentence and it is not properly defined.

Madam Speaker, having said that, what we are talking about is the issue of character. We need to consider this as a process of making sure that justice happens. When one is arrested, at the end of the day, he/she will be tried and the process goes on. Among the reasons that are supposed to be considered when one is being sentenced are deterrent, retribution, incapacitation, and rehabilitation. It is before that one has to look at our nature.

Madam, speaking for Chilubi, the constituency I represent, currently, and anyone can call the police there to confirm what is happening there. What is happening is that once a boy is arrested for stealing a chicken, he will be taken to the Boma because there is no prison in Chilubi, but police cells that cannot sustain a certain number. To be taken to the Boma, one would have to cross Lake Bangweulu. These are realities we are speaking about here. When one crosses Lake Bangweulu, he/she will be kept at the island from the mainland and even if one has been arrested from the swamps, he or she would have to cross Lake Bangweulu to get to the island. At the island, there are only police cells. There is no structure for a prison where somebody can benefit from the food given to prisoners because there is no funding towards that end. When they are taken from Chilubi Island, they, again, cross Lake Bangweulu to go to Luwingu where they are mixed with murderers and people who have committed dacoity and many other crimes.

Madam Speaker, given that scenario, if a person has intentionally killed another person, it means that the character of that person is already questionable. So, taking my boy from Chilubi, who has stolen a chicken, possibly out of hunger, and then putting him together with people who have committed major offences is not good. When he is mixed with such people, there are things that go on there. There is peer pressure. They create a canteen culture. They create a sub-culture in prison because they have been found in the same circumstances and, therefore, they have to share. There is commonality that happens in a police cell. If that be the case, it means the boy would contagiously get the behaviour of the murderer in one way or another. By the time, he will be tried and by the time he will reach at a particular point, he would have contracted certain behaviours in his character that may not be in tune with the value of the crime the person committed, which is stealing a chicken.

Madam Speaker, given that background, when we say that this Motion should not refer to the future, by the nature of the way the Motion has been crafted, it is futuristic. This means that the question we are supposed to ask ourselves is whether we have cells for people who commit minor crimes in Zambia. The answer is no. So, if we do not have cells for people who commit minor offences in Zambia, it means that the Motion is encouraging the Government to create such cells for the 19.2 million Zambians who are prone to committing minor offences and not major ones.

Madam Speaker, it is not even taken away from the domain of politicians, including me. At this point, I would like to declare interest and state that I am prone to committing a crime. If we have to consider minor offences, some of you who are angels, remain angels, but in my case, I am prone to crime. I declare interest because others are running away from declaring interest.

Madam Speaker, I think, we should not trivialise a matter that is having some impetus in other countries where there is a reformation of a justice system, like in the countries I mentioned earlier that have taken on board the Minor Offences Act. So, why are we so repellant about such factors because of where person who has moved the Motion has come from, and then we start being very defensive?

Madam Speaker, I do not want to refer to this Parliament. I am talking about the 19.2 million Zambians that are likely to be in cells. If they are likely to be in cells, it is upon this Parliament to start instituting measures that will ensure that the process of justice does not tinker with the character of an individual …

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: … who is supposed to be saved. So, when we look at that and by that individual will be receiving a sentence, they would not have been punished already because of what they have gone through.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, when you shout so much, we will not get some of the words that you will say. So, please, just lower your voice in order for us to hear every word you are producing.

You may continue.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, sorry I will lower my voice. This is very emotive. I am thinking of Chilubi when speaking about this issue. These are real matters we should not be playing around with. There are many boys in Chilubi who have stolen goats and the like, but they have been mixed with murderers. Even now as I speak, there are boys who have been trying to help here and there to get them from Luwingu and be tried in Chilubi because there is no magistrate in Chilubi to look at their cases. So, these are factors that need to be given a real face. Not where we start joking about a serious Motion like this one and then you divide the nation into demons and angels. There is no angel when it comes to the law because the law is bright.

Madam Speaker, before I become so emotional because of the boys who are on my mind, I would like to rest my case on this note.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, thank you so very much that Mitete, through me, has been given an opportunity to add its voice to the debate on this Motion.

Madam Speaker, firstly, the police is no longer a police force, but it is now a police service.

Ms Sefulo: Yes.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, the men and women in uniform are human beings. Secondly, a suspect remains a suspect not until proven guilty. Thirdly, there is a police bond that can deal with some of the minor charges. It is no wonder I have said it is now a police service.

Madam Speaker, before anyone could say ‘no’ to the Motion, all the debaters were saying the Motion had been trivialised. By whom has the Motion been trivialised?

Mr Sing’ombe: By themselves.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, it has been trivialised by themselves. No one came here to say firstly, we will say no to the Motion. The mover and seconder of the Motion, and the one who has just debated, they can – It is like talking show.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we want this debate to flow. I will take the last point of order so that we wind up debate on the Motion and make progress. We still have another matter pending on the order paper. So, I will allow the first hon. Member who had indicated to raise a point of order.

The hon. Member for Lumezi, you may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, this is a Motion that has been ably moved by me, on behalf of the people of Lumezi.

Madam Speaker, I rise on the point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. The hon. Member debating has deliberately decided to mislead the country, himself, and the people of Mitete by using the word ‘trivialised’. In moving this Motion, at no point did I use the word ‘trivialised’. At no point did we talk of police service and police force. Is he in order to continue to deliberately mislead the people of Zambia?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I think I had guided much earlier that we have a Motion that is very specific before us. I urged you to stick to the Motion. So, I had just started listening to the hon. Member for Mitete to hear where he was heading to when he mentioned police service and the other matter that until somebody is proven guilty. So, I was trying to build up on that.

Hon. Members, if you will be irrelevant, I will come in that I think the matter you are trying to bring on the Floor of the House is outside the Motion, and to ask that you, please, come back to the Motion.

Hon. Members, to those who are still to debate, can we stick to the Motion. There are people who are listening; some are interested and some are not. There are people out there who want to hear your points on why you are or not supporting the Motion so that they are also satisfied. So, with that guide, there will be no more points of order so that we make progress.

Hon. Members, can we be responsible enough and stick to the Standing Orders as we debate the Motion.

Hon. Member for Mitete, please, you may continue your debate with that guide in mind.

Mr Mutelo: Well guided.

Madam Speaker, I was not the one who first mentioned the word ‘trivialising’.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I think, you can now make progress. We want to listen to your debate.

You may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, with minor charges, they can sometimes be settled at the police station before someone is put into cells. That is what a police service will do.

Mr J. Chibuye: Have you been in a police cell before?

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, I am being asked if I have ever been in a police cell.

Madam Speaker, the answer is yes.

Mr Munsanje: Several times.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, maybe, to answer the one debating whilst seated; chamona songe, nakapaji. This means that whatever an impala would have seen, the waterbuck would have also seen it.

Madam Speaker, I have been in cells, but I do not want to debate myself.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, on the Floor, I think that is not important, unless you want to declare an interest. However, like I guided earlier, can we stick to the Motion rather than debating yourself. Please, do not listen to the people who are debating while seated. You are debating though me. So, please, continue with your debate. I am listening and following your debate.

Mr Mutelo: I am not supporting this Motion.

Mr Simumba: Why?

Mr Sing’ombe: It is a brought-in-dead (BID) Motion.

Mr Kapyanga: Are you jealous?

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, firstly, what has been seen by an impala, a waterbuck is now seeing. Secondly, there is a police bond. Thirdly, there is not until you are proven guilty. Fourthly, when you are now taken to court and proven guilty, there are separate prisons. That is where you separate people according to their offences. If an offence is minor, the court may even fine you.

Madam Speaker, maybe, if the Motion said we increase prisons, it would have been better, but the New Dawn Government has put bunk beds and mattresses in prisons. So, what is the fear about? We have seen mattresses go into cells.

Interruptions

Mr Mutelo: I have seen that.

Madam Speaker, I have been brief, for the first time, today. I do not support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Chienge to debate this important Private Members’ Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, the Motion, which has been ably moved by Hon. Munir Zulu is a very important Motion, which affects every Zambian. I am one of those who have been in police cells. So, I want to say to the Government of the day that we cannot have such kind of police cells; where a room is for male detainees and the next room is for female detainees. Sometimes, when you go to the police cells at Woodlands Police Station, the two cells would be fully packed with male detainees and, maybe, a female detainee in the passage.

Madam Speaker, we are talking about human rights here, according to Article 18 of our Constitution. If someone commits a misdemeanour, there is no need to treat such a person like he or she is a felony suspect. The Government of the day needs to listen to this very important Motion on the Floor of the House because we have heard of women being harassed. In Chienge, a police officer raped a fourteen-year-old girl, who was taken to police cells after insulting the mother. This matter is in public domain. This happened because of vulnerability and the way police cells are structured. It is very important that, as a House, we agree. This has nothing to do with politics but has everything to do with our people and the dignity of the Zambians who are detained. You are not proven guilty by being arrested.

Madam Speaker, we are talking about misdemeanour cases. That is the reason I want to urge my Colleagues on the left and right-hand side to support this Motion. Hon. Mutelo has just said chaona muzako. Today, we may take it lightly, but this is very important. I have been going to prisons to minister. Prisons are a different place. It is so painful, but I am talking about police cells. If you go into police cells–I have given two examples, I have been detained at Emmasdale Police cells and I have visited some people at Woodlands Police Station. It is very important to have separate police cells allocated to male suspects of felony cases and suspects of misdemeanour cases, and for women suspects.

Madam Speaker, it is so humiliating to women. No matter what kind of offences they could have committed, a woman is sacred. We cannot have a woman put in the passage in the same space as males. I think it is inhuman. All I can ask is that let us respect the human rights of the people who are arrested and detained while their cases are being investigated. Therefore, I urge both sides of the House to support this Motion to urge the Government to create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offences.

I support this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Feira to add a voice to the debate on the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I just have a few points to add, even as I support the Motion that has been ably moved by Hon. Munir Zulu and supported by – Who supported it?

Hon. Opposition Members: Chinsali!

Laughter

Mr E. Tembo: Seconded by the hon. Member for Chinsali.

Madam Speaker, the issue has arisen because of the interactivity between people who are suspected to have committed offences. Clearly, there are some people who are suspected to have committed bigger crimes, so to speak, and those who have committed lesser offences. In the same way that the law apportions the gravity of offences, we are saying that we need to have police cells for people according to what the law has provided. We have felonies and misdemeanours in the Penal Code. In a like manner, we need to have police cells for people accordingly, as the law has provided. Learning from that, I find it easier that we should agree to have the proposed arrangement.

Madam Speaker, we need to look at things from an objective point of view. It is not about what affects you today or tomorrow. If we do that, we will keep going round in circles. So, I really want to support the Motion. Indeed, the issue that we are trying to avoid is that there should not be interaction between those who committed minor offences and those who committed major offences. When people are in police cells, they interact and share stories. You would find hard-core criminals specialised in opening any lock, be it a hotel lock or a car lock. This may affect someone who just picked an egg from somewhere, and is also in the same cell with the hard-core criminal.

Madam Speaker, as my hon. Colleagues have said, as society, we need to do something. When we talk about the police, we talk about the justice system. At the end of the day, we are not doing any good to society. So, I, once again, pay tribute to my hon. Colleagues for coming up with such a brilliant Motion. This Motion would have not come forth if the police service, which in practice is still a police force, were a police service. Why should we struggle to get someone at the level of a Member of Parliament to sign a police bond? There are certain things that do not even need documentation. In short, if the police worked accordingly, as was said earlier by the President when he first opened this House, we would not have such issues. The President said where you have a bondable offence, a police bond needs to be given as long as you provide sureties, but this is not happening. Therefore, this Motion has come to cure such things.

Madam Speaker, before I sit down, allow me just to extend this issue about special cells to children. As a country, we are a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC). We also enacted the Children’s Code Act, in this House. Clearly, the Children’s Code Act, states that whatever we do, the interest of the children must be put at centre stage. I think that we should have such cells. I know there are many definitions of, but principally, by law children are those below the age of eighteen. So, I think that in that manner, and as already been debated, let us have these special cells for women as well because such people have not yet been convicted. The Constitution guarantees the rights of suspects or people who are merely accused. The thing we are seeing of treating people who are just accused as if they are already guilty is not good. The police will treat you like you are guilty by saying “Eeh, iwe, unachita mulundu.” You have committed a crime. Why are you here? So, as a country, we need to take strong steps to avoid all that.

Madam Speaker, with all that, once again, I emphasise that I support this Motion. It is not political. I think it is in the interest of this country and Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for allowing me, on behalf of the people of Katombola Constituency, to add my voice to the debate on the Motion which is before the Floor of this august House.

Madam Speaker, I want to begin by saying that we do not support this Motion for the following reasons. Firstly, on the law in Zambia, I heard my hon. Friends who are still students of law trying to quote the Bill of Rights.

Mrs Chonya: Tell them!

Mr Andeleki: The Bill of Rights, Madam Speaker, provides guidance in Article 23 of the Constitution of Zambia through a non-discrimination Clause. So, suspects are supposed to be treated the same. There are no hard-core and non-hard-core suspects. Criminal cases are well provided for in the Penal Code Cap 87 of the Laws of Zambia, and the complainants in the case are the people of Zambia. That is why a case is; the people versus whosoever it is. There is no way we are going to have a scenario where suspects are treated differently because of the presumption of innocence, which is well entrenched in our Constitution, particularly in the provisions of Article 18, Sub-Article 2, which is very clear.

Mr Amutike: Ndiye ma lawyers!

Mr Andeleki: This is how it is. The complainants are the people. So, there is no way you are going to treat suspects differently because in any case, the rule of law has now been restored under the New Dawn, United Party for National Development (UPND), Government. Suspects are entitled to police bond if the offence is minor. I am surprised that the hon. Member, who moved the Motion, can suggest that suspects should be treated differently based on the status of whether the offence is minor, a misdemeanour, or felonious offence, and that has not worked anywhere. They tried to quote one or two countries they did not research on to understand the difference between an accusatorial system and an inquisitorial system. What they are talking about does not apply to Zambia.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki: It does not apply to Zambia, Madam Speaker. There is no country in this world using the accusatorial system that allows suspects to be treated differently. When you are a suspect, you are a suspect. There are no hard-core and minor suspects. There is nothing like that and the people of Katombola Constituency, –

Madam Speaker, in view of the restoration of the rule of law under the New Dawn Government, the President has clearly directed that no accused person should be kept in jail longer than is necessary in accordance with the provisions of the Law. The hon. Member who moved this Motion is clear on the Criminal Procedure Code because he is my former student, Hon. Munir Zulu. He understands and should read the provisions of Section 33 of the Criminal Procedure Code, Cap 88 of the Laws of Zambia.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, on the Floor, you are not supposed to lecture the mover of the Motion.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is important that you just put the facts before the House. Do not lecture the hon. Member or the mover of the Motion. If you are not supporting the Motion, just give the reason for doing so. Let us not lecture other hon. Members while we are on the Floor.

You may continue.

Mr Andeleki: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the guidance. I appreciate you on behalf of the people of Katombola Constituency. The point I was making is that I am not supporting the Motion because nowhere in the world is a separate cell created for suspects, and classifying them as hard-core or not. It has not worked anywhere. We have a number of precedents or case law that we can refer to relating to the subject he is trying to introduce. The Patriotic Front (PF) was in the Government for ten years, why did he not move that Motion? Why did they not pass that law?

Mr B. Mpundu: He was not in Parliament and he is not in PF (Patriotic Front)!

Interruptions

Mr Andeleki: Why was that law not passed if it is a good law?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, we are discussing this Motion now. Can we just take it that this is a Motion that has been brought to the House. You can either support or not agree with it. Just state your facts.

You may continue.

Mr Andeleki: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The point I was making is that we do not support the Motion because the rule of law has since been restored in Zambia. There is no more political violence and no one is being detained beyond ...

Mrs Mwansa: Question!

Mr Andeleki: … the law that is provided, which is Section 33 that I was quoting. Accused persons facing minor offences as suspects are admitted to police bond for the very first time. For the first time the rule of law has been brought to its fore to ensure that everyone is treated fairly.

Rev. Katuta: Gold scandal suspects!

Mr Andeleki: Some of your hon. Members, Madam Speaker, were, on the same day of their arrest, admitted to police bond. Most of them are moving with police bonds in their pockets.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We shall not discuss ourselves, hon. Member. We shall not debate ourselves. Please, find another example.

You may continue.

Mr Fube: Elo ba lawyer!

Mr Andeleki: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The point I was making is that now the rule of law has been restored, and no one is being detained for a longer period than necessary. There is no need for them to worry because police bonds are available. There is no more interference with the police because it is now independent, and the rule of law and good governance have been restored.

Madam Speaker, we will not support this Motion as the people of Katombola.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will call upon the last hon. Member.

Hon. Member for Nkana.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you. Let me start by declaring interest in the subject at hand. The reason is that there was an attempt to frivolously and vexatiously indict people who are very close to me on tramped up charges.

Now, I want us, Madam Speaker, to have a candid conversation because the matter at hand affects all of us. It is not for politicians but for the people of Zambia. A prison or holding cell is a hotel for almost every Zambian. Where I come from we say, “umulandu mume, baukumpula fye”. A crime is like dew, you can pick it up any time anyhow.

Mr Nkombo interjected.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the little I learnt when I was studying law is that what we are discussing now, crime, is categorised into three. There are misdemeanours, cases that would be heinous and felonies. I want to remind some of the debaters who spoke before me that there is actually a separation in how people are treated right from when one is accused. When one is accused of having committed a felony, they are not given a bond; that is a separation already. Even when they are convicted, if they committed a felony or a heinous crime, most of them end up at a maximum facility; that is a separation. So, nobody should claim that there is no separation. I would still want to remind all of us that the presumption of innocence before being proven guilty is the basis on which we should treat citizens in a fair manner.

Madam Speaker, the mover of the Motion is simply saying that we should begin to separate those that could have committed grave offences, as we hold them to determine whether they are innocent, from those who could have committed minor offences we refer to as misdemeanours. There is nothing strange, and nobody in their sane mind should suggest that there is no separation in how we treat people who would have allegedly or been convicted for, actually, committing a crime. There is a separation at all levels.

Madam Speaker, the work we have here, as hon. Members of Parliament, is to work towards bettering things. Our commitment, as hon. Members of Parliament, is to do things better and to make things better than we found them. We are not reinventing the wheel here, but are basically trying to make a commitment by doing something different. If there has never been a time when cells were separated, who stops us from doing that? Our collective responsibility, now, as hon. Members of Parliament is to make things different from how we have found them.

Madam Speaker, the call by the hon. Member of Parliament from Lumezi is simple because nobody should claim that we have a police service. Yes, by pronouncement. We still have a force. Nobody should claim that, today, bonds are being given, as prescribed by the law within forty-eight hours. I brought an issue not too long ago, which issue I was expected or required to lay evidence. How I wish that day, I would have laid the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security as evidence there because I had presented a matter to him.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, let us not involve other people in our debate. Try as much as possible to avoid debating the hon. Minister or the hon. Members.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that it is important once in life to be candid, factual, truthful and confront things as they are. If we are to be forgiven by God, first of all, it starts by acknowledging that we have sinned. For us to correct wrongs, we must start by acknowledging that there is a wrong.

Madam Speaker, I have referred to an issue I brought up two days ago, where a young man was being detained for committing a minor offence of criminal trespass. Criminal trespass is a misdemeanour. You cannot keep somebody in police custody for nine days for a misdemeanour. So, these things, hon. Member for Katombola, still exist. If you expect me to lay evidence, I can lay evidence today because I am very prepared. What the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi is basically saying is that we have a duty and a commitment, as hon. Member of Parliament, to not leave the status quo as it is, but to do things differently. There is nothing sinister. If, when convicted, criminals are separated as to where they are held because some prison facilities separate those who committed minor offences from those who committed major offences, what would, therefore, be sinister in us separating them when they are alleged to have committed a minor crime? Other prison facilities are for criminals who are now being held in maximum correctional facilities because they committed grave offences. There is nothing sinister.

Madam Speaker, all we have to do is to collectively agree, as hon. Members in here, that we have a job to do. Firstly, we have to make correctional facilities better. It is our responsibility because our prison system does not go for punitive measures or punishment, but it calls for correction. To correct somebody, you must subject them to humane treatment. We are a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Human Rights. Our disposition and responsibility is to ensure that we subject people, whether they are charged or sentenced, to human treatment because our system is a correctional approach and not punitive. Our presumption of innocence dictates that we must treat people well because when being arrested, you are presumed to be innocent until when, the one with the mandate to prove the burden of proof has proved that you actually guilty.

Madam Speaker, remember, the burden of proof still lies with the prosecution of the people who allege because he who alleges must actually prove the allegation. I am now going back to school because this subject requires us to be factual, candid and honest. We are having a very honest conversation. We must never pretend to not know that these grave activities are going around.

Madam Speaker, I declared interest because one day or another, I may find myself in that situation. I just want to be treated in a humane way, Umulandu mume baukumpulafye.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, next time, mind the way you hold your book because it might have fallen on the hon. Members in front of you.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am going to allow the hon. Minister of Justice and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to respond to the issues that were being raised before I call upon the hon. Member for Lumezi to wind-up debate.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.): Madam Speaker, I must begin by stating right off-the-cuff that the Government does not support the Motion on the Floor of the House. The Government is not emotional in taking this position and basically I will explain, in my debate, the reason for the position taken by the Government and, of course, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security will add to the discussion.

Madam Speaker, the starting point is that, first of all, the Motion in terms of the debate of the mover and the seconder of the Motion appeared not to fully speak to the issue that is at hand here. The issue at hand is in relation to persons who are held in police custody before they are presented to court. Those are the people who are subject of this discussion here. Those, by their nature, are suspects and not convicted persons. There is a significant difference there.

Madam Speaker, there has been a lot of reference to the presumption of innocence and that is where I suppose I can begin to have a candid discussion. It was suggested by some of the supporters of the Motion that it is being trivialised or not being taken seriously. The Government does take these matters very seriously. Indeed, just as the hon. Member for Chilubi stated that there are people who he has witnessed himself being kept in custody, we have walked that path. So, when we speak on behalf of the Government, we are coming from a point of knowledge, where the order of the day was political detentions and persons being kept in custody without them having committed any offence worth speaking of. So, we take it very seriously and, in still, insisting that the Motion must fail, we have that in mind.

Madam Speaker, first of all, the presumption of innocence, I go back to it. What does that entail? It entails that only a court of competent jurisdiction can find a person who is suspected of having committed an offence guilty or otherwise. Therefore, the argument that has been put forward or debate that there are hard-core criminals and those who have committed minor offences must be separated is counter intuitive. It is counter intuitive in the sense that only a person whom a court has convicted can then be found to be either a hard-core criminal or otherwise. The argument by those supporting this Motion ignores the fact that there is a possibility that individual X and Y, who may be accused of having committed what has been referred to as heinous crime, a capital offence, for example, of murder, may be innocent and I may be guilty. Where are we resolving the mischief by saying that these people should be separated before they have been convicted? What am I saying? There is a possibility, using the argument from our hon. Colleagues, that an innocent person such as individual X or Y, if their argument is to succeed, will be put in a cell with a person who is guilty. Where is the mischief being dealt with there? Until and unless there is conviction, the possibility of finding myself in a situation where I am with a person who has actually committed offences is high. Who draws the line? That is the question. It is only a court of competent jurisdiction that can do so.

Madam Speaker, prior to that, we are all seen in the same eyes as innocent people and that is why there is no separation or distinction between persons who are held in police custody for the short time that they are held before going to court and before being tried and convicted.

Madam Speaker, what is more in our rejection of this Motion is that it is not based on any law. The mover of the Motion has simply said that there must be a separation. Where is the impetus of that coming from? The law does not provide for such a procedure, therefore, what the mover is asking the Government to do is to commit a breach of the laws of this land. Essentially, there is no legal position in the Constitution or any subsidiary legislation, which provides for such a step to be taken where persons are separated, in fact, discriminated against on the basis of the alleged offences that they committed. The Motion is not tenable at law, therefore, it cannot succeed before this honourable House.

Madam Speaker, it was suggested by the mover of the Motion that there are certain provisions of the United Nations conventions that we must follow as provided in those conventions. In supporting the Motion, it could not be further from the truth.

Madam Speaker, I will be technical. The provisions that the mover of the Motion was referring to, are known as the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners also known as the Mandela Rules. The Mandela Rules comprise 122 rules and they are very specific on the nature of treatment of persons who are held in custody. There is a clear distinction in the Mandela Rules as to prisoners and persons that are simply held in custody, who are specifically referred to as untried persons in the Mandela Rules. The very provisions that the hon. Member was citing are clear, that untried persons are to be dealt with in a particular manner. In particular, I will refer those who are viewing this debate and the hon. Members to rule 119 going forward up to 122 of the Mandela Rules where there are provisions that deal with those who are held in police custody. None of those provisions require that individuals be separated prior to them being convicted. The untried persons, who are persons that have been arrested or who are awaiting trial, have specific provisions that relay to them and none of those refers to separation on account of the proposed charges that the accused person is facing.

Madam Speaker, if I may quickly read what those provisions state. Sorry, I am out of time. Maybe, I will just run through what they generally provide quickly. They provide for these persons having access to food of their own choice if they so wish, these persons having access to legal practitioners depending on the charge that they are faced with and the detention period. More importantly, these rules provide for the classification of prisoners, that is post-conviction, based on the charge or the conviction that they have received. There is no such rule in terms of untried persons, that is, suspects only. So, the rules, in fact, from an international perspective, which we subscribe to, as Zambia, are also very clear that there is no discrimination of persons who are simply held in detention as suspects.

Madam Speaker, the Motion is not informed in law or in fact.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make the Government’s position pertaining to the Motion that was raised by the Hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi which reads: Create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offenses in Zambia. This Motion –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the voices from the group where the Whip for Independent Members is are too loud.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, this Motion is full of conjecture, it is speculative and full of flaws. The Motion speaks to the need to create cells for those who have committed minor offences, but the debate that is on the Floor of this House is totally alienated from the Motion that is being moved. If the intention of the mover was to create conducive conditions for suspects who are being held in police cells, we would have supported the Motion, but the way it is, we cannot. I would like, as I move the opposition to this Motion, to adopt the submission by the learned hon. Minister of Justice on this matter.

Madam Speaker, for ease of reference, I would like to state that a police cell, as the House may wish to note, is a secure room in a police station where suspects are detained temporarily or a room in a police station for temporarily holding arrested people or those awaiting transfer to another more permanent facility. It, therefore, follows that it does not hold any water and have an aorta of relevance to the situations that are obtaining currently.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, for the information of Hon. Munir Zulu and my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali, I want to state that all new police stations that are being constructed have separate police cells for males, females, and children, in accordance with the laws currently in force. That is what we are doing currently.

Madam Speaker, I also want to state that for the time being, our priorities are to not create separate cells for people who committed minor offences. As my colleague has rightly argued, everyone is presumed innocent. Even those they are alleging to have committed murder may be innocent; they are merely accused persons. So, we cannot punish them as it is alleged that they must be held separately so that other criminal activities can continue in the cells. We have a duty and responsibility to ensure that everyone who is detained in police cells is treated fairly. The arguments that are being raised are totally different. If their argument was that those who are held in police cells and their cases are bondable, let them be given police bond, I would have been supporting such arguments.

Madam Speaker, I will not state, on the Floor of this House, that no one has been detained for longer periods contrary to the provisions of the law. That has been happening and we have put in corrective measures. So, the arguments that are being put up, here, are flawed. Our argument should be that the Zambia Police Service follows the law. If a case is bondable, let a person be bonded. If it is not bondable, let the person be taken to court within forty-eight hours as per provisions of the law, not the argument we are raising on the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, even the written statement which I had, I cannot present it here. There are no points that have been raised by the mover and the seconder. If I had a way, I would have urged my hon. Colleagues to go and rephrase the Motion to suit what we should be discussing here. In that light, I will indicate that the Government does not support this particular Motion and request my hon. Colleagues to object it. I ask everyone to ensure that anyone who is under police custody is treated fairly, not what the Motion is speaking about.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, permit me to mention that, indeed, I declare interest. The hon. Member for Katombola was lecturer and his submissions are flawed. There is no way an hon. Member of Parliament talks of the President as if the President is a lawmaker. Hon. Members of Parliament make laws for the betterment of citizens.

Madam Speaker, we have an hon. Minister of Justice, who is State Counsel, asking where the law is when we are supposed to make laws. We are proud to state that there is no law, when we are supposed to be making laws in this country. A State Counsel, for that matter, is asking where the law is.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Munir Zulu: We are supposed to make the law, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, but hon. Member for Lumezi, you are winding up debate. You are closing the debate. We are not starting the debate now. We are winding up. So can you, please, stick to that and just wind up debate, so that we move to the next stage.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, suspects have to be treated the same, according to Article 23 that was cited.

Madam Speaker, with Motion, I can confirm now that absolute power corrupts absolutely. In the next few months, or maybe for the benefit of doubt, let us give it three years, the potential cell birds are not on your left. Earlier on when I moved the Motion, I spoke to the law. I now intend to speak to facts. How I wish that Hon. Jack Mwiimbu was State Counsel. He should have known that punishment starts at the point of being held in police cells.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, when you are incarcerated in those ugly filthy cells –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, is it possible that you can just summarise because you are winding up. Instead of bringing in this and that name just summarise what you have heard from your hon. Colleagues, so that we move to the next stage. So, just summarise or finalise the debate.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, as I wind up my debate, I am speaking to the responses that I got and I was taking notes.

Madam Speaker, punishment starts at the point of you being incarcerated in cells. We need to be concerned by the way police officers deal with citizens because they are the best people to de-campaign any government. I am speaking to facts and not the law. I have put the law aside for now because someone is not aware that we are here to make laws, yet he is State Counsel.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Objection, Madam Speaker!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Objection, Madam Speaker!

Hon. Members: Objection?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Sorry, on a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think I made a ruling –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There was a ruling that we were not going to take any more points of order. I requested the hon. Members on the Floor to be responsible enough so that they also take into consideration the Standing Orders.

So, hon. Member for Lumezi, you are supposed to wind up the debate on the Motion, which says, ‘The House urges the Government to create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offences’. What is the summary out of all this discussion that was there towards this Motion that you raised yourself? How do you summarise it?

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, I wish to state that we are all your hon. Members, both on the left and right. It so happens that you have hon. Members who were my lecturers on your right who intended to de-register the United Party for National Development (UPND) when they served as Registrar of Societies.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Again, that is not important for your Motion. Just give us important points for your Motion. Just wind up your Motion, hon. Member. This is your Motion. Can you close your Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, Zambia has 452 police cells. It is not my wish and intent to see any of your hon. Members, including the support staff, to be subjected to those ugly cells. Even those potential suspects that will be picked in the near future will remember me and they will say, “Munir Zulu spoke as a Jewish prophet”. I do not claim to be one, but I have the gift of the gap. I can see the future and my Motion was speaking to the future.

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu: Preach!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, this Motion is not speaking to the present. It is talking to the future.

Madam Speaker, there are hon. Members, either on your left or your right, who were arrested under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government and they were treated to very ugly cells. There are female hon. Members. This is a fact and I am not speaking to the law. Female citizens have given birth on the passage at police stations and then we should be here saying that we treat everyone fairly under the law?

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, pronouncements and what happens are not tallying.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I pray to Allah, who I believe in, that this should not happen to those who think that this is a trivial matter. When you are in power, there are those hon. Members who support your stay in power even with lies and that is what I am coming to learn. That is why someone who intended to de-register the UPND is their hon. Member of Parliament.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I think now that is way out of subject.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The issue that has been brought in now by the mover of the Motion is not connected to the Motion on the Floor. It is not connected to the creation of separate police cells.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We have to make progress. Hon. Member for Lumezi, please, in future, when you are summarising or when you are winding up debate, you have to keep in mind the Motion that you raised. Now you are bringing in many other issues that are not connected to your Motion. This is your Motion. You have only fourteen seconds. Please, wind up debate, so that we make progress.

Mr Andeleki: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the Zambian people have listened and they know we mean well. This Motion was not segregative. This Motion was not only speaking to your hon. Members. We are lawmakers and we should support this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that this House urges the Government to create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offences put and the House voted.

Ayes – (37)

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Emmanuel J. Banda

Mr Chala

Mr Chewe

Mr C. Chibuye

Mr Chisanga

Ms Chisenga

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chonde

Mr E. Daka

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kapyanga

Rev. Katuta

Mr M. Lungu

Ms T. Lungu

Ms Mabonga

Mr B. Mpundu

Mr C. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Mutale

Dr Mwale

Ms S Mwamba

Dr Mwanza

Mr Mwila

Ms Nakaponda

Ms Nyemba

Ms M. Phiri

Mr E. Tembo

Mr Twasa

Mr Munir Zulu

Noes – (79)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr Andaleki

Mr Emmanuel Banda

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chibuye

Mr Chikote

Mr Chilundika

Mr Chinkuli

Mrs Chinyama

Mr Haimbe, SC.

Ms Halwiindi

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kandafula

Mr Kapala

Ms Kasanda

Ms Kasune

Mr Katakwe

Mr Kolala

Mr Lihefu

Mr Lubozha

Mr Lufuma

Mr Lumayi

Eng. Mabenga

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Mr Matambo

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Chipoka Mulenga

Mr Mulunda

Mr Mulusa

Mrs Mulyata

Mr Munsanje

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Musumali

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mwambazi

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mrs Nalumango

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkandu

Mr Nkombo

Mr Nkulukusa

Mr Nyambose

Mr Nzovu

Mr S. Peter Phiri

Ms Sabao

Ms Sefulo

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simushi

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig. Gen Sitwala

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayengwa

Abstention – Nil

Question that this House urges the Government to create separate police cells for persons charged with minor offences put and negatived.

MOTION OF THANKS

(Debate resumed)

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was saying that Zambia’s economy continues to underutilise its natural resources as if it is under economic sanctions.

Madam Speaker, the world order is now changing. The environment has a critical role to play in feeding economic activities in order to have a self-sustaining economy. When you look the World Order, countries that have been trying to help in sustaining our economy are trying to show certain indicators that they can no longer sustain our economies.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The voices on my right are becoming louder and louder. We want to listen to the debate. If we want to caucus, we can go out so that we have room to ourselves to caucus louder. Meanwhile, as we are here, please, let us maintain silence or speak in low voices so that we can listen to the debate.

Hon. Member for Chembe, you may continue.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I was saying that the world order is now changing slowly and each country requires navigating how it can sustain itself economically. All the things that a country needs …

Mr Mubika: On point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu: … to sustain itself, can only be sustained by utilising the environment successfully.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chembe!

There is an indication for a point of order though I cannot see the person. I can only hear the voice.

Mr Mubika rose to speak.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shangombo, what is your point of order?

Hon. Members: Chwee, chwee!

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the identity of the debater. As you can see from the multi-media screen, my face is showing and it is me. However, when the hon. Member was debating, the picture looks completely different from him.

Laughter

Mr Mubika: Are our staff in order to put up a different picture of the man who is debating?

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Shangombo, that is an administrative matter. You could have just written to the Clerks-At-The-Table. It does not qualify as a point of order.

Hon. Member for Chembe, please, continue.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, what I was trying to say is that …

Interruptions

Mr C. Mpundu: … promoting domestic financing –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Resume hon. Member for Chembe.

Mr C. Mpundu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu resumed his seat.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we will continue when the atmosphere in the House is conducive. Otherwise, we cannot continue.

Laughter

The House maintained silence.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chembe, you may continue.

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I know my brother is admiring my jacket.

Laughter

Mr C. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I was saying that, currently, the people or stakeholders whom we have been relying on in helping us with domestic financing are taking a shift that is coming on board. A good example is the recent workshop your hon. Members had organised by the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services to do with how the health sector can improve in domestic financing. These are indicators that a country needs to start navigating to ascertain how it can sustain itself.

Madam Speaker, other signs that show that there are shifts in domestic financing are the way multilateral and bilateral relations are going on the world over. However, the only thing that can propel our economy is to unlocking our environmental sustainability because all the resources that we need are drawn from the environment. Alas, when you look at the budget for the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, it is only 0.5 per cent. At the same time, the ministry has not even employed its personnel. Yes, there are the 30,000 teachers. We are only talking about employing 30,000 teachers, and nurses. How about the officers in the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment? These are the people who can liaise with other ministries like the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to exploit our natural resources for the much-needed development that we lack. However, that is not moving as expected.

Madam Speaker, we have many mineral depots. Chembe, my constituency, is one such area but the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment cannot go and carry out a risk assessment there. There are not enough resources. When you talk of Mpika, it has minerals, Mapatizya also has minerals, but we cannot utilise these minerals accordingly.

Madam Speaker, what we are saying is that we have a lot of mukula lying idle around the country. We cannot have a roadmap on how that mukula can be used in our economy. As Zambia, we have failed to turn our economic sustainability into our environmental sustainability, hence the hiccups that we have been having in terms of making our economy thrive.

Madam Speaker, to crown it all, I can see my time is not with me, let us have an environmental sustainability that can feed into our economic sustainability to propel our economy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for granting the people of Kasama an opportunity, through me, to add a voice to the debate on the Motion of Thanks to the President’s Speech.

Madam Speaker, synergy between progressive governments is the key to success. As we can see, the Kasama Airport has been completed. This is a true example to know that governments are progressive. The airport is going to open up for tourism, but only a few people are going to afford to get onto a flight into Kasama. Flights are not affordable. Flying into Mansa or Kasama is almost the same flight fare as flying into Johannesburg. There is a need for more players in the field of aviation so that we have cost-effective flights and the airports can be more in use.

Madam Speaker, the President’s Speech referred to airports that need to be rehabilitated, but in Kasama, there is the Ntumpa University. There are many learners. Secondary schools are being built, but what are we doing about tertiary education? Completion of Ntumpa University is equally important.

Madam Speaker, Phase II of the Kasama General Hospital also needs to be looked into because the population has grown and dynamics have changed. It is, therefore, key that the Government should also look into expanding some of these projects that were never completed because the baton has now been passed on to the current Government and, therefore, the completion of incomplete projects need to come into play.

Madam Speaker, there are many tourists going into the Northern Province, but the cost of tourism in the country is very high. We were assured that the cost of local tourism is likely to come down. However, we do not have ample infrastructure. The speech did not outline any plans to promote national development progress in tourism. For instance, there is the Chishimba Falls, the Ndole Bay and the Kasaba Bay. All these tourism sites need to be looked into so that investors could start going to that area.

Madam Speaker, I know it is a song for the day, but we will continue to speak about one thing; the cost of living. The people of Kasama Central have also echoed their voices on the cost of living. Mealie meal is not the only expensive commodity at the moment. The Basic Needs and Nutrition Basket has risen. It always remains the question and such speeches, therefore, need to have a way of letting us know how the Government intends to alleviate poverty in the country.

Madam Speaker, due to the high cost of living, some people have involved themselves in a number of vices, and most of our homes have been broken into. We have had petty thefts here and there, all because people need to put food on the table.

Madam Speaker, 1,024,434 farmers are on the Fertiliser Input Support Programme (FISP) Programme. If we translate this number into the entire country, it is only 5 per cent. The figure may seem quite good, but we need to do more, as a nation. Farming blocks need to come into effect because they will also increase the production of the country.

Madam Speaker, there was also an area that was not ably covered; there was no commitment to environmental conservation. By-products of most of farming products such as maize cobs and rice husks are all alternative methods of – What is the word?

Madam Speaker, what I am trying to say is that climate change is real. We need alternatives to charcoal. At the moment, we are burning down quite a number of trees for charcoal. Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) is not affordable for most homes. What is the Government doing? We need to look at the briquettes that can be made from rice husks, maize cobs and other by-products. By so doing, this will cover quite a lot of households, and that will be a way to cut down on how we are destroying the environment.

Madam Speaker, there is also need for constant policy direction on farming. We may have the 1,024,434 farmers, but we do not speak about projection. What do we expect from the inputs that we give them? Once we start to project on the framing inputs given out to the framers, we should be able to project our production. We do project on copper production, but why is it that we do not project on what the faming season for the following year is going to be. It is extremely important that is also followed.

Madam Speaker, finally, I also wish to reiterate that we stand in the House, as a country, and remember that we serve the people of Zambia. It is important to realise that speaking about the cost of living is not politicking. The situation is real and it needs to be addressed more on how the alleviation of the high cost of living can be achieved. People are really suffering out there. As hon. Members of Parliament, we are also feeling the pressure because, every now and then, we have to come out and assist certain household that cannot afford a meal a day.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. We are going to have debate from another lady.

Mrs Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my thought, on behalf of the good people of Chikankata, on this good Motion on the Floor of the House presented to this House by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, on 8^th September, 2023.

Madam Speaker, let me use this opportunity to thank, the Hon. Madam Speaker, for launching the Nelly Mutti Foundation (NMF) and donating computers to her former school, the Holy Cross Girls Secondary School in Mongu.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, allow me to quote the theme of the President’s Address:

“Building on the Socio-Economic Gains for Improved Livelihoods and a Better Zambia.”

Madam Speaker, the theme tells us that the President’s Address was telling us about the achievement of the New Dawn Government in the past two years in power.

I will focus my debate on page 24, where he spoke about human and social development, and I will narrow it down to where he said that our Free Education Policy has created opportunities for all citizens to access education.

Madam Speaker, education is an equaliser. Therefore, the first step to development is education. If you educate the nation, it develops. There are developed countries in this world because of education. The first thing they considered in their development plan was to invest in education. There are countries like Japan which invested the first twenty-five years of its development plans into education. This is why Japan is where it is at the moment.

Madam Speaker, coming form from that background, the New Dawn Government, in 2021, gave a policy direction of free education, which started in 2022. This is a non-discriminatory policy that gave an opportunity to all Zambian children regardless of where they come from, where they are or who they are.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: That is a progressive policy from the Zambian President.

Madam Speaker, in Chikankata, the Free Education Policy came up with its demands. Some of the demands are that of having more teachers, but we have a listening Government and it responded positively by recruiting thirty teachers. In Chikankata alone, we had 120 teachers. What does that mean? By recruiting one teacher, it means that six people are empowered at household level that are directly benefitting financially. Communities where the teachers are living have directly benefited financially and socially. The lives of the community changes because there is money in circulation in that community.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, let me now talk about Chikankata. Of the 120 who were employed then, multiplied by six people at household level, it means that 960 people at household level were empowered in that community. This also means that the lives of the people in Chikankata changed because of the Free Education Policy of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, the Free Education Policy came up with the other demands such as education infrastructure. Most constituencies are constructing classroom blocks and staff houses. What does that mean? It means that one contractor is going to employ more than ten young people at that construction site and that is what we call job creation for the young people of Zambia. There is one policy that is attracting many sectors within our economy. That is what it means to have a progressive leader as a President.

Madam Speaker, under the New Dawn Government, we have also seen the Free Education Policy. We are also procuring desks. In Chikankata alone, we have procured 3,000 desks. This means that we are giving opportunities to our children. Every child will have a desk, unlike what we saw in the past when some children were sitting on the floor while other children had desks and at the end of the year, our children were writing the same examinations, but with different opportunities. Under the New Dawn Government, by the end of 2025, all children will have access to desks; meaning that they will have the same opportunities of writing examinations and perform better because they will be given a comfortable environment.

Madam Speaker, the procuring of desks also motivates the educators. When you are an educator and have learners who are comfortably seated, you will have the motivation to teach. The learners have also been given an opportunity to sit in a good environment where when the educators are teaching them they are able to pay attention, unlike what we saw in the past where our children could sit on the floor and not pay attention to the teacher. However, at the end of the year, they were given the same examinations, and some of our children failed because of the environment which they were exposed to of sitting on the floor.

Madam Speaker, talking about agriculture, I come from Chikankata which is an agricultural area. That is the main business we do in Chikankata. However, with the progressive Government of the New Dawn, under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), the floor price of maize was increased from K180 to K280. What does this mean? That is what we call more money in our pockets. Unlike the theory of ‘money in the pocket’ we heard of meanwhile, money was only with the few elite. However, under the New Dawn Government, we are taking more money into the pockets of the rural areas. What does this mean? It means that most of our people, even I, will be encouraged to go back to land to plough because there is money out there in the rural areas. With this policy of increasing the floor price of maize, means that we will even reduce urbanisation. We will not have many people in the urban areas. People will go back to the land where there is money.

Madam Speaker, these are the progressive policies of the New Dawn Government. When we talk of education, you cannot say that if someone who is investing in education is not a good leader. He is a good leader because he is thinking of the intergeneration of this country. This means that the future of this country is bright because we have a leader who is able to think of the future through education.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sabao: Madam Speaker, if you give knowledge to an individual, you empower him/her. If you give money without the empowerment of knowledge he/she will not do anything with money. However, if you give an education to your child, it means that you have empowered him/her for the rest of his/her life.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support this very progressive speech that was presented on the Floor of this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the Quorum has collapsed. Where are the whips? We are planning to adjust the time in our Standing Orders. You made submissions that we increase the time of debate. Even before we do that, the quorum has collapsed. Can we ring the bell.

Business was suspended from 1853 hours until 1855 hours.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

We now have a quorum. Let us, please, be seated.

The next to debate is an Independent hon. Member, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chasefu.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according the good people of Chasefu, through me, this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion of Thanks, which was presented on Friday, 8th September, 2023.

Madam Speaker, today, my debate will be supported by facts and information. When the President walked into this House, it reminded me of the day I was elected a Member of Parliament and came to sit in this House. He spoke to this nation and mentioned that, “as a President of the Republic of Zambia, I will set the leadership bar high”. What came to me was that, was it true that in this country we could have leaders who are objective and mean well for the nation when it comes to development. However, when he came the third time, I confirmed that yes, we have a leader who means well for the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, I am speaking as a Member of Parliament for Chasefu. When I stand to speak, I speak to represent the good people of Chasefu and they are listening to me. Firstly, how is Chasefu Constituency in terms of development? Those who would come to Chasefu would see and wonder whether the constituency is part of this country. There is no infrastructure, fifty-eight years after Independence. Before the New Dawn Administration, we had only 425 teachers. However, the New Dawn Administration recruited 473 teachers to the area, more than what we had.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: I ask myself whether that is this kind of development we want in Chasefu?

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nyambose: Are the people of Chasefu our children? Do they deserve the best where the pupil-teacher ratio is concerned and having the best as any other part of this country?

Madam Speaker, figures do not lie. When I debate, I always say Lusaka is not Zambia. Chasefu is also part of Zambia. What wrong have the people of Chasefu committed to be denied development and lag behind, fifty-eight years after Independence? However, I see the Government that gives us figures and I will mention them. The empowerment grant in 2022 was at K1,920,000 and 120 people were empowered. In 2023, 100 people were empowered, bringing the empowerment grant to K4 million. Has it happened before?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Nyambose: Let me come to –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I think, we are not supposed to involve ourselves in his debate.

Hon. Member, please, do not also ask questions to your hon. Colleagues. You are debating.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue.

Mr Nyambose: What I am trying to say is that leadership looks at the people in general, without segregation.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nyambose: The people of Chasefu are Zambians. They deserve what you see in Lusaka. President Hakainde Hichilema has now made up for the neglect that they suffered. We now have graders and we have started building schools. We have built the first mortuary after Independence. So, as a Member of Parliament, I am proud to associate with a Government that looks at a Zambian just like any other person. You cannot develop one part of the country and say you have constructed this and that airport. We need the same infrastructure in Chasefu and have our children sit on desks. Right now, we have the desks. That is all that the people of Chasefu deserve. They deserve basic development issues, not rhetoric. We want actual things, which the President has brought.

In two years, Madam Speaker, I confirm the words the President said about setting the bar of leadership very high. As a Member in the House, whom do I associate with; the one who brings good things for the people of Chasefu or the one who develops Lusaka only, and neglects the people of Chasefu?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, there are no roads in Chasefu. However, we have our own graders and we are going to buy more equipment. As I am speaking, it is not an issue of graders, rather it is an issue of why we have started at a certain point when we need works at another point, and this is because we have our own equipment. So, I will come at seat here, in the House, look at myself and keep quiet. When I compare, there was mediocrity and, now, there is good leadership.

In terms of Chasefu, Madam Speaker, those who want to argue with me can do so because they live in Lusaka and I also live in Lusaka. However, the good people of Chasefu need a leadership that cares for them. As I am speaking to you, things for the people of Chasefu –

Madam Speaker, the people of Chasefu are saying that if they can have K32.7 million by the end of the year, what more in three years? So, what we need in this country is a leadership that looks at people as the late former President Kenneth Kaunda did when he took the bicycle plant to the rural part of this country. Do not have leaders who think about themselves because they live in Lusaka. Those fly over bridges they constructed are good because I drive on them. However, for the people of Chasefu there is no road.

Madam Speaker, the Chipata/Lundazi Road, as lamented by my friend, is as if you are not in this country when you are driving on it. When you look at the Chasefu/Chama Road, there is no road. So, I am appealing to the New Dawn Government to not work like others who failed. It is doing well with President Hakainde Hichilema. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should give us roads.

So, when you see me sit here lamenting, in the House, Madam Speaker, I lament on behalf of the people of Chasefu. The best is what they are having now. President Hakainde Hichilema, wherever he is, should close his ears and keep his eye on the ball because, so far, if we are to speak about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), everyone here in the House, has an allocation. The same K32 million I have they also have but they do not want to disclose. These things are happening everywhere and this is the development the people of Zambia need. Hon. Members should not come here to the House to start differing and talking about what happened yet they were developing Lusaka only. Develop Chasefu, Feira and Shang’ombo. When I watch the pictures of Shang’ombo, –

Madam Speaker, fifty-eight years of Independence, we need to spread development evenly. I am happy with the President and I associate with him because he is a serious president who has set the bar very high. On page two of his speech, Madam Speaker, he mentioned that development is not a smooth line. He acknowledged the challenges and said that he is equal to the task and is going to deal with them.

I submit, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Wusakile, you may proceed with your debate.

Hon. PF Member: Hammer!

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity given to me, on behalf of the people of Wusakile –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are running out of time. Let us give him a chance.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Kalobo: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity given to me, on behalf of the people of Wusakile, to comment on the President’s Speech that was delivered to this august House on 8^th September, 2023, whose theme is on page three, and it reads:

“Building on the Socio-Economic Gains for Improved Livelihoods and a Better Zambia.”

Mr Fube: Page nine?

Mr Kalobo: Sorry, page three.

This speech, Madam Speaker, makes interesting reading. It has painted a very bright macro-economic environment with the 4.7 per cent economic growth and 9.9 per cent single digit inflation. However, His Excellency acknowledged that the Government is struggling to bring down the inflation rate. That is what should make us take the so-called 4.7 per cent economic growth with a pinch of salt.

Madam Speaker, I expected the President to explain the drivers behind the economic growth. It is a well-known fact that the there is a close relation between inflation and exchange rates. The two move in tandem. It is practically impossible to have inflation rate and exchange rate pulling in the opposite directions.

Madam Speaker, given the number of international trips the President has taken, I expected him to tell us how much foreign direct investment (FDI) he has attracted to the country and in which sectors it has been invested. That is what I expected. It is very worrying for him to claim economic growth when, wherever he goes, he is being greeted with one word; Njala, njala, njala. That is the greeting, wherever he we goes.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does that mean, hon. Member?

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, it means hunger, hunger, hunger.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Enough, hon. Member.

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, macroeconomic indicators are very worrying due to the high cost of living. In a country where there is economic growth, there are trickledown effects to the people, pantu ichalo bantu.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Why has the watch stopped?

Interruptions.

Mr Kalobo: Pantu ichalo bantu, means that a country is made up of people. So, there should be trickledown effects.

Madam Speaker, in this Parliament, we are fond of quoting what great men like Nelson Mandela or Aristotle said. Today, I want to quote what President Hichilema once said:

“If the Government cannot change the lives of the people, the people should change the Government.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: I call upon many Zambians to change this Government because it has failed to change the lives of the people.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, try as much as possible to stick to the speech.

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, it is just a quotation. I am within the confines of the speech.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No. Try to be in line with the speech.

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo: Okay, I see controversy, let me move on to and talk about the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, in this speech, there is the mention of the Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM). There is bragging of having cut this deal and handed over the KCM to Vedanta Resources Limited. In Wusakile, we are not calling it a handover, but a handout. That is what we are calling it.

Madam Speaker, this deal is reckless. Why is it a reckless deal? We know where we come from with Vedanta Resources Limited. There are so many bad provisions it has. In a bid to motivate the return of Vedanta Resources to KCM, a delay was caused in order to create hopelessness, anxiety and uncertainty whilst presenting Vedanta Resources Limited as the only alternative. That is unacceptable.

Madam Speaker, this is a bitter, tasteless, inappropriate and wrong deal. Vedanta Resources Limited is an investor whose payroll of 100 expatriates was equivalent to the salaries of the 2,200 local miners.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The pronunciations do not matter so much. I think, we know what he means. Can we, please, allow the hon. Member to proceed.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, can we allow the hon. Member to proceed.

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, this Vedanta or Agarwal; Agarwal is a person and Vedanta is a company. This is a broke investor and it is in the public, everywhere, that he is trying to borrow money to pump into that company. The US$1 billion he is pledging is the same one he had made previously. He has come with a sugar-coated deal. I am reading on page 13 that he has sugar coated this deal so that he is given freely, as he got it previously. On page 13, this is what he has promised; US$1 billion investment in Konkola Deep Mining, US$250 million payment to local debtors and an annual US$20 million investment into the community.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1910 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 21^st September, 2023.

____________

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