Friday, 6^th October, 2023

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We have an agenda before us, hon. Member for Kabwe Central. Her Honour the Vice-President is not supposed to give us the business for next week. It was already done. It will be done fortnightly.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition may proceed.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, soon after the 2016 General Elections, there was tension in the country. Stakeholders and political parties alike decided to go to Siavonga and have a meeting to see how they could resolve the challenges. That was done amidst calls for national dialogue. The Siavonga Meeting resolved that, as opposed to using foreigners to resolve our local problems, Zambians should engage the Church to try and help them resolve the challenges.

Madam Speaker, a few days ago, we saw the former President of Nigeria, Olusegun Obasangjo, coming into the country to try and mediate between President Hakainde Hichilema and the former President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. Considering the Siavonga Resolution where, as Zambians, we resolved to handle our challenges locally and not use foreigners, what is the position of the Government as regards this matter? Have we lost faith in the Church?

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition for that question. Really, hon. Members will realise that the Siavonga Resolution never worked. It was almost brought-in-dead (BID). Nothing was resolved through the Siavonga Political Party Resolution, and it was not a binding resolution that this nation would forever work on the premise of what was resolved in Siavonga. The Siavonga Resolution was misinterpreted and misunderstood. It never worked.

Madam Speaker, to start being an island, as a nation, is a very dangerous path to take. We are part of the global world. That is why hon. Members have seen that where there are serious problems, the international community gets involved, and we will always be involved. Therefore, the internal issues of our country cannot always be bound by the Siavonga Resolution, which failed to work.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question.

Good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President, from the good people of Petauke Central.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: I am not moved now.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I think, we have many hon. Members who want to ask questions. Let us not waste time. Please, go ahead with your question.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is these people who think that I will be moved.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the good people of Nyika Ward, the only urban ward in Petauke Central Constituency, are crying because the township road project has stalled for so many years. These roads have become death traps for the good people of Petauke Central, especially in that urban area, because they have heaps of road construction materials and people with motorcycles and vehicles are being involved in accidents. I remember vividly –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Do not debate your question, hon. Member. What is your question?

Mr J. E. Banda: Her Honour the Vice-President promised this House and Zambia, at large, that the Government would complete all the projects that were stalled. So, when is the Government going to complete that township road project in Petauke Central Constituency, in Nyika Ward, in particular? The good people of Petauke Central are waiting to hear her answer.

The Vice-President: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for Petauke Central for that question. Good morning to the good people of Petauke Central. I know there are those who have a covenant with the hon. Member to watch when he is asking questions. So, when the hon. Member is coming to ask questions, he even says, “You watch me. I will ask.”

Laughter

The Vice-President: I think that is very good motivation.

Madam Speaker, the promise of this Government still stands. We said that we would work on every project that is good for the people of Zambia that was started in the past. That is why he has seen that we are not only working on projects that were started by the immediate past regime, the Patriotic Front (PF), but also on those that were left by the Movement for Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD).

However, we have to start from somewhere, but now, hon. Members are comparing two years to ten years. As long as we are looking at things like that, we will not be objective and rational in the manner in which we see the work of this Government. We are working on those issues.

Madam Speaker, the best thing to do – I think, those roads fall under local government. It is important that the hon. Member follows up and sees exactly the stage at which they are. I cannot have information on those specific projects, right now, and say, “Oh, in this constituency, this is what is happening.” We will complete them. It is a commitment to the people of Zambia. We will follow through with the projects. However, the resource envelope or the availability of funds determines where to go and what to prioritise. The hon. Member should go to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and see exactly the programme of work for those roads.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to ask a question. The workers and the people of Zambia, in general, are crying in the light of the escalating cost of living and doing business in the country because of the unprecedented increase in the cost of fuel and electricity. Has the Government got any plans to tax the mining investors more so that it gives to Caesar what belongs to Caesar in order to mitigate the high cost of living?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chama North for that very important question on the cost of living. Indeed, this Government is working and doing everything possible to ensure that there is an improvement. This is what it committed to doing in the lives of its people. The cost of living is a concern for everybody. However, this House, being a house of leaders, should help to interpret the issues; the economic status of the country and the entire globe so that we do not just live like – again, I will use the word which I have used before – an island, as though we are able to do all things.

Madam Speaker, on the cost of fuel he has spoken about, yes, it is true that it is very high. However, we have said it here, many times over, that there are things that are beyond our control. If we produced fuel, we would determine its cost, but we do not. It is determined by other people, yet we need it. We cannot do away with it. However, we have put up many mitigating measures to try and bring down the cost.

The Vice-President received a note.

The Vice-President: I am sorry, but it is good. You know that I learn things from hon. Colleagues.

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

The Vice-President: I am okay on my own? Ah!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am sorry for having a chat with these hon. Colleagues who want to disrupt my thought pattern.

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that if we produced fuel, for example, we would be in charge. We would be able to determine the cost. However, this Government is trying to put measures in place that will mitigate its cost, which we know impacts the production of many things, if not almost all the things that we produce, through industry. We are aware, and that is why we have repeated, many times, that we have worked on the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta Pipeline (TAZAMA). We are hoping that, not too far from now or in the near future, we should be able to have a reduction. No matter how small, it will be a reduction. That is why we have talked of fuel blending or ethanol blending to create petrol. We are working on all those things. There are challenges along the way, I am aware, but we are working on them. When that happens, definitely, we should start seeing stability in the cost of living. We are impacted by activities the entire world.

Madam Speaker, the question the hon. Member asked is on taxing the mining companies. Are we going to tax them? I think, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is here. Do we leave them without being taxed? I thought they pay tax. They have to pay tax. We know that there is Company Tax and Mineral Royalty Tax. They pay all of that. We need to increase mining activities and bring in more investment so that we can have more tax. Unless I did not understand, the mining industry pays tax to the Government, both Mineral Royalty Tax and Company Tax and through the employees who work in the mines, which tax is used for redistribution. I want to say that when we collect tax and levies, we redistribute to do the things that we do. So, this House should help us if it has any other way of raising money.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, are people looking for development which is centred in town or one that is distributed all over this country and covers the rural areas, which never used to take place? Which development should we consider as the one that will help alleviate the suffering of the people of Zambia, especially those in the rural areas? Is it the one centred in town or the one which is distributed to the rural areas?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I do not want to join the Presiding Officer. I think, the purpose of our talking is to understand and hear each other.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am just being reminded that the Hon. Madam Speaker has won an award under the Commonwealth. So, let us congratulate her –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

You may continue.

The Vice-President: Especially the hon. Member for Mporokoso.

“Which development do we need?” I think, is the question. Is it the development which is urban-centred or, indeed, rural-centred? I will start by saying that they are both needed. We need development in urban areas, but they are not Zambia. Urban areas are just part of Zambia. We also need to develop the rural areas, where the majority of our people are found. The hon. Member for Kalabo Central has seen that Zambians are happy with his Government of the United Party for National Development (UPND) because of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF brings about equity.

Madam Speaker, distribution of resources is a very important issue in governance. A lack of equitable distribution of resources is what you see bring about confusion in many countries, and this Government is aware of that. That is why equity in distribution is important. The hon. Member has seen that the CDF is also given to constituencies in urban areas. Mandevu Constituency and Nkana Constituency have the CDF, but so has Shiwang’andu Constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We cannot leave out the villages of Shiwang’andu because they are in rural areas. They also need development. This is what we need. We must develop the country equitably so that we do not leave anyone behind. I hope I have responded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, information emerging – you know I do not lie – is that nearly all the United Party for National Development (UPND) led constituencies in this country have received, in full, the 2023 Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mushanga: Meanwhile, Madam Speaker, the constituencies led by Opposition hon. Members of Parliament and Independent hon. Members of Parliament have only received not more than K8 million –

Mr Mukosa: K6. 9 million.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, K6. 9million. My question is: Why are constituencies led by Opposition and Independent hon. Members of Parliament being discriminated against by the Government, especially when it comes to the CDF?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I hope you have evidence.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: We have it.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The Vice-President: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I would like to thank the hon. Member for this very important question. I am glad that he prefaced his question with, “I do not lie.” It is important that we should not lie. I will excuse him, to start with, because he also said, “Information emerging.” I will tell him that he should not believe that information, if he truly said it from his heart.

Madam Speaker, some of us are working for the people and to the glory of the living God. We will not stand to lie. I will not stand to lie. I can be misled, but I will not lie. So, I like that statement. Therefore, I can assure him that information is totally false. We have said, here, that resources will be given accordingly, in fact, to absorption.

Madam Speaker, I stand here very disappointed to say the truth, that we are failing to use the resources at the rate that we want. As a result, those who have worked well are being hindered by those who have not done well. As I stand here, I know of a constituency – I do not want to name it, but if the hon. Members knows, he/she should come and see me – that has used only 3 per cent of the CDF.

Mr Kampyongo: Shiwang’andu.

The Vice-President: I do not know about Shiwang’andu, but if the hon. Member is one of them, he can see me.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I am not talking about him. We do not debate each other. I withdraw.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The Vice-President: I hope my colleagues do understand. There is no aorta of truth in saying that this Government is doing a don’t kubeba on hon. Members when it has promised that it will release money under the CDF to every constituency. No one constituency has been favoured. Those who are not working fast enough are delaying those who are ...

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Vice-President: That is the truth.

 ... working fast in their constituencies. As far as I stand here, – hon. Members did not even see me turn to the hon. Minister because I also try to follow what is happening. This is how sad it is. We are failing to absorb the money quickly so that more can be released.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Rev. Katuta: Question!

The Vice-President: The principle is: money –

Can you listen, ...

Madam First deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

The Vice-President: ... my daughter who likes to shout at the mother.

Mr Amutike: The reverend.

The Vice-President: The reverend, yes. My reverend-daughter.

Laughter

Madam Speaker, the principle is that this Government would like to release the money at the same time so that the issues that the hon. Member has referred to do not arise. So, on this matter, hon. Members should go and check their constituencies and say, “We have used ...” How many have used less than 50 per cent? Less than 50 per cent of hon. Members have used 50 per cent of what has been given to them. They should, please, use the money quickly. People want development. The money is there and will be released as soon they do that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: So, that is my assurance to the hon. Member. There is no such thing as he referred to. The money is there. Does he want me to tell him where the money is? I can tell him that the money is there. He can go to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development where the money was sitting unused, and we had to do something. So, the money is there, and we are committed to disbursing it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, when Her Honour the Vice-President was responding to the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, in which he asked why the Government was not taxing the mining companies more, she responded that the mining companies are, actually, paying taxes. She further stated that this House needs to help this Government on how to raise money. I agree with her that it is true that the mining companies are paying taxes. Now, let me explain it this way. In 20 –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, try to be very brief.

Mr Mukosa: I will.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Be very brief so that we allow as many hon. Members as possible t.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I want to create a basis for asking the question so that Her Honour the Vice-President can understand.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, if you want to explain details of your questions in, it should be under a minute or two.

Mr Mukosa: Of course, it will be less than a minute, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, focus on the question. Get straight to it.

Mr Mukosa: In 2022, the Government of Zambia gave an incentive to the mining companies of K3.2 billion, meaning that it lost K3.2 billion in revenues. This year, it introduced a Fiscal Policy which gave an additional tax incentive of K2.8 billion, meaning that it lost K2.8 billion. In total, this year, it has lost K6 billion in the mining incentives that have been given.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, this year, we have proposed that the people of Zambia should be taxed on person-to-person mobile phone transactions from which the Government is going to generate K1 billion tax next year. So, why is it that the Government cannot reconsider this position to tax the people of Zambia and just revisit one of the decisions that extended the tax incentives to the mining companies so that we provide relief to the people of Zambia?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chinsali for the question. For some of these issues, it is difficult for me to give answers, as I stand here, because I need more information. I am not aware of all these incentives. Remember, I am not an economist. So, I will need to sit down with people who can explain to me how we have lost K6 billion in incentives, I believe, to the mines.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the area in which I would like the hon. Member to help his country is resource mobilisation. I like this question because it has brought out this issue, but I am saying that I am not aware of such a thing as giving out K2.2 billion worth of incentives. It needs an explanation to a simple mind for me to understand. So, I will not comment, but I am glad he has said that we are taxing the mines. If we are taxing the mines and then giving an incentive of K2 billion, I will need to understand that.

Madam Speaker, I listened to his debate on the Budget Speech – just to remind each other. I see his passion about the person-to-person mobile money transfer levy. He is so concerned about this tax or levy, whatever you call it. He thinks that this is punishing people. There is no punishment. Even for him to sit here and for colleagues to have sat here (pointed to the Government Bench), there is money that comes from the people. The Government collects to redistribute. That is how tax works. You collect little by little and give to the needy. That is the principle even in our traditional governance. Under normal circumstances, a chief will collect and then give to the needy at the right time.

Madam Speaker, one cannot start making people feel like something so huge is happening over an issue of K0.08. The hon. Member should realise it is 8 ngwee.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: If one transfers K5, 8 ngwee is given to whom? It is only the volumes that make the difference. Do not make people feel like this Government is out to punish them. This is money that we want to take to the people.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members are talking about roads and this and that. This is the money, but it is only 8 ngwee that will be deducted from the smallest amount and K1.80 if one transfers the maximum amount. Surely, what else can hon. Colleagues think of?

Madam Speaker, all the money that goes into the Treasury is people’s money. There is no way we are going to have no tax. Whoever we tax is a person. A worker is being taxed. Whoever works is contributing to the Treasury. This is how you raise money. So, for us to make people feel like there is something very abnormal or that we want them to be poor is wrong. We want to make roads for them. We want to continue with free education. We want to continue with the Social Cash Transfer. I do not want to go into the Budget Speech debate.

So, to the hon. Member, this is not to punish, but to make money so that Chinsali can have that road on which, currently, people fail to travel. The rains are coming and we will be crying. Let us collect whatever we can. Tell us to be prudent and we will listen.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Tell us to be prudent because that is what we should be. That 8 ngwee should not go into the wrong pocket. Those are the things he should be talking to us about.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, when the New Dawn Administration took over the running of this country, it was in intensive care. Due to the wise and dynamic leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, as we stand, 80 per cent of the campaign promises have been fulfilled. At the pace we are moving, all the campaign promises will be fulfilled before the end of the five-year term.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: The question I have for Her Honour the Vice-President is: Will the Government go out of its way to implement even things that may not have been promised, in its quest to develop this country?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Sikongo for his question, which he prefaces with the economic status, I believe, but, maybe, even the political status because cadres are no longer there. It was one of our campaign promises.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: We should all be happy because cadres are cadres and will always be there, but cadreism should not be allowed. So, that is one promise that has been fulfilled and everybody is happy, despite which side of the House they are. Nobody in their right senses would want a situation like we see in other countries. I do not want to name an African country that has been caught up. It began like simple cadreism and then gangs took over. That must not be allowed. We have reached here. I am sure we are all happy on that score. That is part of intensive care.

Now, Madam Speaker, on fulfilling the promises, maybe, we should come with our party manifesto and read it out to the people. He is right.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: People voted this Government into power based on the promises it made.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let us not forget. Was it not just the second week of our being in power that hon. Members on your left started asking about free education?

Mr Nkandu: Eh!

The Vice-President: Some even said, “My children have gone to school. Where is free education?”

Mr Nkandu: Yes!

The Vice-President: I still remember my response because, hon. Member for Bwacha, I do not lie. So, I can remember. I said, “This is your Budget and this is September. How can we bring free education?” There was total disbelief. They were so sure that we would not give free education. It was a promise. We fulfilled it, and they are still shocked. We gave free education. There is free education.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: That is one promise. We will ensure that we develop the entire country. We are working. This is why I was concerned over the debate comparing two years and ten years. Development is progressive. It is a process. You do not wake up and say, “Abracadabra, let there be light” like we saw where, primary schools would just be declared to be secondary schools, with no teachers and so on and so forth. There was chaos in the teaching fraternity.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: This is what they were doing. I am a teacher myself. We called those schools, “Let there be,” like God declaring. How do you declare like that?

Mr Nkandu: Ema Veep aya!

The Vice-President: You would find that there was a primary school or is it a basic school, which would become a secondary school, with no teachers. So, you would have a teacher from one school to another while the pay point was at another place. This is the chaos the hon. Minister of Education found. However, we are working systematically.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile interjected.

The Vice-President: You will have your time to debate. I am the one on the Floor and I am enjoying it.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: So, maybe, we can make a list of the things that we have done. I will come with this list so that I show what promises have been fulfilled.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, there is what is called ‘Nalumangonomics’ economic theories. It must go up in order for it to come down.

However, Madam Speaker, we cannot trivialise the cost of living of the people of Zambia. Yesterday, the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment gave us the rain forecast. I was shocked to hear that there is fertiliser in Nangoma. In the northern part of Zambia, where I come from, hon. Members may agree with me that rains begun three or four weeks ago, but there is nothing that has been given to the farmers.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the question is in relation to the cost of living. There is fear that this year and the next, we may suffer the same consequences because farmers have not received inputs yet.

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: That is a fact.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Ask the question, hon. Member, please.

Mr Chitotela: Let us behave like hon. Members. I have heard a very disturbing comment from that side, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Please, hon. Member on the Floor, ask the question so that we make progress.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I was seeking your protection from a very hurtful comment from the right. It is very hurtful and I do not want to respond to the hon. Member who uttered it.

Please, let us behave like hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, Zambians, today, are having challenges and difficulties in meeting their basic needs because of the cost of living, and that is driven by three things; food, fuel and fertiliser. What is the Government doing to mitigate the suffering of the majority of the people of Zambia who are unable to meet the cost of living today?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for that concern except that, just when I started writing ‘fertiliser’, there was ‘fuel.’

Madam Speaker, as regards fertiliser, surely, it is out there. The Government has distributed the commodity. If there is a challenge in the distribution from the depots to the farmers, it is important to talk about that. However, this Government has ensured we do not want to keep repeating the same mistakes. We do not want to go through the same error. However, if something new develops, we should work together and see how we can change it. That is on the fertiliser front.

Madam Speaker, this year, we really want fertiliser to be with the people. I am aware that D-Compound fertiliser is long gone out to the farmers. I think, we have long-term and short-term mitigating measures. Particularly, I was responding to the hon. Member for Chama North on the same issue of the cost of living. So, I do not know whether I have to repeat that. Nobody can undermine the effect of the cost of living in our country today and, because of that, the Government has to continuously work to see how it can mitigate the situation.

Madam Speaker, I talked about the fuel the hon. Member mentioned. I think, I gave some of the mitigating measures. It is a little tedious, but I talked about it.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of mealie meal, the Government is working on how to mitigate its cost. I do not know when I said this and to whom, that, “Colleagues, people are buying mealie meal at an exorbitant price.” If you look at the cost – there are two types of mealie meal. There is roller and breakfast meal. Getting back to the hon. Member for Bwacha, we do not have to lie. We just have to address issues.

Mr Mushanga indicated assent.

The Vice-President: Yes, it is very expensive. The difference between what we call roller meal, which I call ‘a healthy meal’, and breakfast meal is big.

Interjection

The Vice-President: Yes, I should love roller meal because that is what I eat. What we need is to challenge each other here. How many of us are even eating breakfast meal in here? We said we should not lie in here, not so, hon. Member for Bwacha?

Mr Mushanga indicated assent.

The Vice-President: How many in here? Why are they pushing people to continuously take food which is not healthy? Why? Is roller meal good?

Hon. Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: So, let us help our people. It is not only good, but it is also cheaper. However, we become political on a matter on which we should not be. We should encourage the millers to make good roller meal because I hear that some roller meal is bad, bitter or whatever. What we need to do is encourage millers to properly mill good and healthy mealie meal. All of us in here are leaders.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: My younger brother, Chitotela, – today, he is not my son – should help people. I do not believe he eats breakfast. All of us here are protecting ourselves, but we are saying, “Why are you telling people to eat roller meal?” That is hypocritical.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We have to work together to address the issue of the cost of living. We are determined –

Interjection

The Vice-President: Maybe, the hon. Member has answers. Why can he not come and say, “This is the way,” and help us?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to congratulate Madam Speaker, The Right Hon. Nelly Mutti, for the well-deserved award that she won.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, I would like to know what advice the Vice-President has for the people who are ever bringing up issues which the Government has attended to. The Government has delivered fertiliser, but they are still saying that there is no fertiliser. What advice does she have for these people who never repent from whatever wrongs they have done, the plunderers?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Shangombo for that question. I believe that plunderers have no advice. They should be in the courts of law or in prisons. This is the way it should be. It does not matter where the plunderer lives, here or there. The punishment is by law. It is not by the will of man. One must go through the process to be found guilty and then be punished.

Interjection

The Vice-President: We have to create a law for liars.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I see many people being caught up with by the law. It will be like the one which was enacted for motor vehicle theft. Let us create one for lying in the House.

However, on the second point, the hon. Member asked what advice I have for those who never see what the Government does. The advice to them is that we are not competing on service to the people because we are agreed, both the right and the left, to serve the people. So, when something good has been done by the Government, I think, it is important that if one is a politician, to keep quiet if one does not want to praise. However, one should not fight, contradict or oppose because one is in the Opposition.

The hon. Member for Lupososhi, how are you, Sir? I know why I am greeting him.

Madam Speaker, Opposition is not just for Opposition’s sake. One must keep quiet if one does not want to praise. When it is true, one can still keep quiet if one does not want to praise. However, if possible, one must praise so that people can see that something good is happening. One wants a very stable country where people see. Even if one wants to come in after fifty years, one wants to find a very stable Government. We are here for fifty years.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. Let us make progress.

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF TEACHERS’ HOUSES IN MILANZI CONSTITUENCY

78. Ms M. Phiri (Milanzi) asked the Minister of Education:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct houses for teachers in Milanzi Parliamentary Constituency;

1. if so, how many houses will be constructed in 2023;

1. when the project will commence; and

1. what the estimated cost for the project is.

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga) (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct houses for teachers in Milanzi Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, twenty-one three bed-roomed houses will be constructed from 2023 through to 2025, using the Medium-Term Budget Plan.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may note that nine houses have been constructed under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) while twelve will be constructed under the Zambia Education Enhancement Project (ZEEP). The project commenced in April 2023 and, so far, four houses are under construction at Umodzi Day Secondary School and Chibondo Primary School. The estimated cost of the project is K16,642,835.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before I take supplementary questions, there is an indication for a point of order by the hon. Member for Pambashe.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, this week, I rose on a matter of urgent public importance, and you directed me to file an urgent question. I processed the question and received communication from the Office of the Clerk that, today, it would be on the order paper.

Madam Speaker, is this House in order to mislead me by stating in a letter that the question I processed would be on the order paper today, yet when I woke up this morning, I found that it was not?

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, that point of order is not supposed to arise because that matter is administrative. So, please, you can consult the Office of the Clerk for an explanation because it is an administrative matter.

Can we now move onto supplementary questions.

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, since the Ministry of Education has not accommodated most teachers in various schools, is it considering giving them any incentives seeing as they are living in grass-thatched houses in villages? Are there any incentives?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is asking for incentives for teachers. The Government has allocated more money to constituencies. So, we are encouraging hon. Members of Parliament to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we, please, minimise on points of order. We want the questions to flow so that people out there can follow our debates. There is an indication for a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much, and sincerely apologise for disturbing the flow of the question and answer session.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that points of order are supposed to be raised contemporaneously. However, during the Vice-President’s Question Time, again, according to the rules, one cannot raise a point of order and, therefore, I am hoping that this is contemporaneous enough.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Bwacha, in posing a question to the Vice-President, during the Vice-President’s Question Time, made a very serious, misleading, incorrect, inflammatory and pejorative statement suggesting that this Government is discriminately disbursing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to hon. Members who belong to the United Party For National Development (UPND) and, –

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I think, the rules are very clear. We have passed that segment during which we are not even supposed to raise points of order. What you can do now is to, please, write a complaint to the Office of the Speaker.

Thank you.

We make progress.

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister responded that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is there to give incentives to teachers. I totally disagree. Most of the teachers in Milanzi Constituency, if the hon. Minister is not aware, do not receive the Rural Hardship Allowance. I brought this question before this House and no answer was given.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, the CDF – Could you, please, keep quiet.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Milanzi, you are addressing that question to the hon. Minister, through me. You should never mind about hon. Members debating while seated.

Hon. Members, can we give her space to raise the supplementary question.

Mr Kampyongo: Ni ba Zambia National Marketers Association (ZANAMA).

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Milanzi, you may proceed.

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that there are no incentives for teachers who are accommodated in villages. So, how will the Government achieve quality education if the teachers, who are supposed to provide the service, are de-motivated?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, we are talking about houses for teachers. I said that we need to use the CDF to build houses for teachers. That is what I said. I want to be very clear. I did not say that she should get money from the CDF to provide incentives for teachers who are not accommodated. That is not what I said. I said that hon. Members of Parliament must use the CDF to build houses for teachers. That has, actually, also answered her second question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, an opportunity to ask a supplementary question on a sister constituency, which is Milanzi in Katete.

Madam Speaker, the Acting hon. Minister of Education said that the hon. Member of Parliament should use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to put up houses. However, the money which the hon. Member of Parliament is supposed to use from the 2023 CDF is only K10.5 million. How much is K10.5 million divided by twelve wards? It is less than K800,000. To build a house, one requires more than K500,000. How many houses can she build in each ward? Should she build a classroom which costs K1.5 million? The CDF is not even enough for that.

So, the hon. Member of Parliament for Milanzi is asking the Central Government to help cushion the small amount from the CDF, which she has been allowed to use, because all the money has been allocated in percentages; 20 per cent to youths and women; 20 per cent to grants; 5 per cent to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU); 5 per cent to administration; and …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member.

Mr J. E. Banda: … K4 million for houses, ambulances, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) and the House of Chiefs. The amount of money remaining, of the K28 million, is only K10 million. For that K10 million, the hon. Minister is putting her on fire.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You are debating the question. Do not debate the question. Ask.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I said that twenty-one three bed-roomed houses would be constructed from 2023 through to 2025. It will not be done in one year. So, in one year, we will construct two, three or four houses and some more the next year. Right now, there are houses under construction. It is not that there is nothing happening there. Houses are under construction, including those under ZEEP. Hon. Members should listen when answers are being given.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, the idea of using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is becoming very popular. Many of us are stating clearly that we have not been funded 100 per cent while others, including the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, are saying that 100 per cent of it has been funded. The problem is that the pronouncements by hon. Ministers urging hon. Members to use the CDF are alarming. Should we take these pronouncements as directives to Ward Development Committees (WCDs) so that it becomes clear that there is absolutely no mandate for them to generate their options?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not know whether he is the correct hon. Minister to answer that general statement. However, the Acting hon. Minister of Education may respond.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) New Dawn Government increased the CDF to develop rural areas. It is why it is talking about the CDF. It has gotten money from the Central Government for it to be taken into the rural settings. That is why, even in next year’s Budget, the CDF has been increased. It is for such purposes. So, it is clear that the CDF is a game changer. So, the hon. Member of Parliament should use it.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, our colleagues, the hon. Ministers, should know that when they make pronouncements on the Floor, they pronounce Policy. They are not makingmere statements. I want to be helpful to the hon. Minister. With me, (holding a copy of the Budget Speech) is the 2024 Budget. Under the budget for the Ministry of Education are budget lines, such as School Grants; School and University Infrastructure; the Higher Education Scholarship Board; the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which is going to Secondary Schools and Skills Development Bursaries; and the Equipping of Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET) Institutions.

Is the hon. Minister in order to start citing –

Hon. Government Members: It is a question!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the question to the hon. Minister is: Where is he drawing the instructions from to make pronouncements that hon. Members must construct houses for teachers in the constituencies using the CDF when the breakdown of how it is segmented has been given to him?

.As I have highlighted, the money that goes to the education sector is locked up in the Budget and the figure is given to that effect, which is K999 million. From where is he drawing the authority to make the pronouncement to the hon. Members of Parliament so that we do not mislead each other? What he is pronouncing here is Policy.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Hon. Members, as much as the hon. Minister mentioned the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), let us not go stray because we have the Motion of Supply where all those issues should be brought out. For this question, as much as we are talking about the CDF, let us link it to Milanzi Constituency.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I think I said, even when I was responding to the questions, that we do have another programme called ZEEP, under which some of these projects are being carried out. For me to talk about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), it is probably because that is what the Government is emphasising. However, I will leave much of this to the substantive hon. Minister of Education.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The last question will be asked by the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi. Let us be specific to the question.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): I thank you, Madam Speaker, and the hon. Minister for the responses he has given. My question is: As much as we appreciate the deficit of teachers’ houses, it is clear that the hon. Minister has demonstrated that some steps are being taken by the ministry to build houses. However, I am getting confused. For Milanzi, in particular, are teachers not getting Housing Allowance? As far as I am concerned, every teacher gets Housing Allowance.

Hon. Government Member: Since you are a former teacher!

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I may not have much information on that question. However, all I know is that teachers get Hardship Allowance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

If we need more information on this matter, please, we are free to visit the office of the hon. Minister of Education.

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Interruptions

Ms Sefulo: Yes!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member.

Ms Sefulo: My point of order, as I have indicated, is on the Leader of Government Business in the House. When the United Party for National Development (UPND) came into –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can you cite the Standing Order?

Ms Sefulo: Standing Order No. 65.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Standing Order No. 65 what?

Ms Sefulo: Standing Order No. 65 (b)

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Alright.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) came into power, one of the things it did was to provide free education, which means that the education all the children in Zambia are being paid for by the Government. It has also doubled the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) allocation and increased the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) from K1.6 million to now K30.6 million. Currently, the Government has increased grants to schools from K300 to K12,000, and has paid retirees. People are concerned about where that money was going before. So, is the hon. Leader of Government Business in the House in order to keep quiet …

Mr E. Tembo: Question!

Ms Sefulo: … and not come here, to the House, to explain to the masses about where this money the Government is spending on the Zambian people now was going before?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, I think that matter was covered during Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, which has already passed. I listened attentively to her when she said that she would come back to this House to explain what the Government has done. So, that point of order is not admissible. Her honour the Vice-President will come, at a later stage, to tell the people of Zambia what the Government has done, what has not been done and which promise has not been fulfilled. I think, I got her loud and clear. So, your point of order is not admissible.

Mr B. Mpundu: Point of circus.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We make progress.

Hon. Member for Isoka, you may proceed.

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Member: Mayo, mayo!

Ms Nakaponda: The people of Isoka, especially the people of Nkombwa Ward, are asking Question No. 79

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: The richest woman in Isoka.

Hon. Member: Mayo, mayo! Ambassador!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, is that the way to support the lady, surely?

Laughter

ILLEGAL MINING AT NKOMBWA HILL MINE

79. Ms Nakaponda asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

1. whether the Government issued mining licences to any companies at Nkombwa Hill Mine in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency;

1. if so, what the names of the companies that were issued with mining licenses are; and

1. if not, what measures are being taken to prevent illegal mining activities in the area.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, has not issued any mining licence at Nkombwa Hill Mine and no company has been issued a mining licence in the area.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, undertakes monitoring and compliance inspections across the country, including in the area in question.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda: I thank you, Madam Speaker. If the hon. Minister is saying that the Government has not issued any licences to any company, what is the equipment of the African Nkalamo Company doing at the site, and who gave them the licence or authority to mine? On behalf of whose interest is it carrying out the said activities?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Ema questions!

Mr Nkandu: Quality!

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, if there is anybody who is mining, he/she is doing it illegally. Only two days ago, I was with the chief from that area, and we discussed the same. So, if that activity is taking place, I will definitely alert my officials to go and check what is going on because the answer we have given is the status quo.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, a chance to ask a supplementary question. The mineral that is being stolen, since there is no one who has been given a licence, is called Phosphate, which can be useful for our country. Coming from Lundazi, which, definitely, is a farming community, I think we could benefit from that mineral. People have taken advantage of the ministry all over the country. They steal gold and sugilite and, now, Phosphate is being mined illegally. Does the ministry have enough staff or does it need to involve the police and the Zambia Army to help it safeguard the minerals?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I am constrained to talk about a lot of things, especially in response to the many issues that the hon. Member has raised. I want to say that this Government is restoring order to the mining sector. The practical step it has taken is the creation of the Minerals Commission, which is coming in as a regulator. What we lacked in this country was regulation and control. We did not have control. So, everybody was doing whatever they wanted to do and nobody knew what was happening.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is 750,000 km². So,^. if you just have a ministry stationed in Lusaka and a few bureaus dotted around, you cannot know what is happening in Kaputa, where Hon. Nkandu comes from, for example. You cannot know what is happening in Kapisha or Chipata unless you put systems in place that enable the Government’s presence everywhere, and that is what the Minerals Commission is going to do. The Bill is coming to the House during this meeting.

Mr Kampyongo: When?

Mr Kabuswe: This very sitting. Are you not sitting now?

Laughter                                                   

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kabuswe: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Now that the hon. Minister has been alerted to the presence of illegal miners on site, how quickly is the Government going to take measures to restore order in that area?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we will bring order to that place like yesterday. So, the hon. Member must just know that as much as we are alerted, this time around, we are moving in. I was just talking about the fact that I was with the chief of the area about two days ago, in my office, discussing the same. So, we will move in, definitely, as the Government, to ensure that order is restored to the place.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Ms Nakaponda’s system indicator went on.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Isoka, I am seeing the system light going on and off. Do you have a question?

Ms Nakaponda: Yes, Madam Speaker. The hon. Minister said that he cannot qualify because Zambia is big. Last year, I stood here, in this august House, and talked about the same mine. He told me that he would look into the matter. However, up to now, he has not told me anything about it. That is why I was concerned.

Mr Mundubile: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I was not saying that Zambia is too big, and that is why there are those issues. I think, I was referring to the question asked by the other hon. Member and trying to make a point, through this House, for the country to know that this Government is restoring order in the mining sector, which was in a state of confusion. We are stopping the confusion, and part of it was the illegal mining which was happening all over the country. To stop it, it cannot just be by word of mouth. We have to put systems in place. What systems are we putting in place? I have just informed the House that we are bringing the Minerals Commission Bill here, to the House, so that we have a regulator that will have its presence doted right across the country. That is what we are doing. So, to bring order, it is not just by telling the police to go and shoot at people, no. It is to put systems in place.

Madam Speaker, the other system, apart from regulation, is to formalise operations of people who are there. The reason hon. Members rarely hear me say ‘illegal miners’ is that those people are Zambians who are trying to survive. However, nobody was taking care because there was confusion. So, this Government is saying, “Can we formalise.” The formalisation process is in high gear.

Madam Speaker, only yesterday, we finished procuring equipment and everything that will help with the formalisation of the small-scale and artisanal miners. These are the issues that we are looking into. So, to have order and stop all the illegalities, we do not sit on the roof top and just shout, “Stop illegalities!” We do something about it. What are we doing? The Bill is coming to the House; and we are formalising and giving licences to artisanal and small-scale miners. This is how you do things and order is restored. The hon. Member will no longer be talking about illegal mining in those areas.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister hears people lament over these issues, it means that there is a challenge. Yes, he is talking about the new regulator coming in, but here, in this august House, we have a report which spoke to the illegalities happening in the backyard of Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) at Senseli. Structured illegal activities are happening there.

Madam Speaker, we brought up the issue of Kanyelele in Mpika, and the Government tried to move in, but in just a week, people went back. It is the same in most of these areas where these illegalities are going on.

Mr Kabuswe interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Te ku ku tendeka iwe, Minister.

Mr Kabuswe interjected.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: He does not have to – These are national matters. When we bring them to his attention, it is for him to do something about it. Does he understand? Te ku kubala iyo. So, when he says, “mule ntendeka,” tule mu tendeka shani?

Mr Kabuswe interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, just focus on your question. What is your question, hon. Member?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, in the meantime, we have law enforcement agencies that the ministry can partner with, move in and curtail these activities. My question is: Do we just have to wait for this commission that the Government is going to create, for which legislation is yet to be done, in order for him to do what he is saying; restoring order? We are losing minerals. When we see people flying in with dollars in airplanes hoping to get gold from the airport, it is not a good sign. It is a sign of lawlessness and a breakdown of law and order.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not debate. Just wind up your question. In fact, you already asked the question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, what can the Government do, in the meantime, to ensure that these illegalities happening in Isoka now are curtailed? We went there with the hon. Member to see what was happening, and it was a sorry sight. What is the Government going to do, in the meantime, to ensure that these illegalities are curtailed?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question, and hope that I can put this issue to bed.

Madam Speaker, when we say that we are putting systems in place, we are not saying that we are sitting idly. For example, only two days ago, hon. Members heard about how the police arrested people in Luapula Province, who were undertaking illegal mining.

Madam Speaker, this Government is transparent. In the past, we were not even hearing about some of these things.

Rev. Katuta: Question!

Mr Kabuswe: We were not hearing about the ransacking of minerals that was going on, previously. However, this Government is exposing such things, and has shown intent. President Hichilema has shown intent that there will be no sacred cows. We have the police dotted all over and checking for illegal mining meaning that we are not just waiting for these systems.

I want to say, Madam Speaker, that this issue of Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) and Sensele Mine has been talked about and people have gone to town to lie in the media that there are 15,000 illegal miners at Sensele Mine, which is not the correct position.

Madam Speaker, had there been 15,000 people at KCM, illegally, we would have seen them because that is a huge number. According to the Mines and Minerals Act, it is the responsibility of the licence-holder to deal with illegal mining. If there is a licence-holder and illegal mining is taking place, the licence can be withdrawn where the licence-holder is not dealing with the issue. It is because there was a breakdown of the rule of law in this country that people were not following the Act. The Act has all these provisions.

Madam Speaker, yes, we are bringing systems into place, but we are also making sure that the police are all over and helping us to make sure that we curb illegal mining all over the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: There are two points of order. For now, I will take the point of order from the hon. Member who had indicated first.

Mr Chibombwe: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order citing Standing Order No. 65(b).

Madam Speaker, sugilite was just recently discovered in Luapula Province. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to refer to the mineral, which was just discovered and is being plundered by the United Party for National Development (UPND) members, as having been that it was plundered in the time of the Patriotic Front (PF)? The mineral was just discovered a few months ago and is being looted, now, by UPND members, some of whom are locked up at a police station in Mansa.

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we are looking at a very simple and straightforward question before us. I guided that we should stick to the question. The problem which has arisen is that we have gone away from the question. Now, even points of order are coming up, pointing to issues that are not related to Isoka. So, can we, please, be focused. I am not going to admit that point of order. Can we be specific and focused on the question by the hon. Member for Isoka. It is straight forward.

Let us make progress and move on to the next question.

DETAINEES’ SEXUAL ABUSE BY POLICE OFFICERS IN POLICE CUSTODY

80. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. whether the Government is aware that some police officers have been sexually abusing detainees in police custody;

1. if so, what measures the Government is taking to curb the vice and reassure the public; and

1. whether a Commission of Inquiry will be set up to establish the depth of the problem.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before we make progress, we will attend to the last point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I wish to appreciate the guidance that we have been given, but when information is brought onto the Floor of the House, I think, it is only important that it is put straight. So, sometimes, as you guided, when hon. Ministers are responding and they are going outside the question, it becomes difficult for us to just ignore that because they have put some information forth.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. The matter relating to the illegal mining at Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) by a company called Sensele was brought on the Floor of this House by a Committee of Parliament. The report is there. We asked several questions on the Floor of this House. So, if the hon. Minister comes on the Floor and says that people have been lying about the presence of illegal miners, and that their presence is the responsibility of the licence-holder, before Vedanta Resources Limited came in, whose responsibility was the operation at KCM?

Madam Speaker, the hon. Members of Parliament whom you sent to KCM asked whose Sensele Mine was, but the ownership of this company could not be ascertained. It was a very big worry for us, as a country, that at our largest mining asset, there was a presence of a mechanised mining operation, which nobody reported. The report established illicit financial flows.

Mr Kabuswe: Is that a point of order or you are debating?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Leader of the Opposition, you may continue.

Mr Mundubile: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to insinuate that your hon. Members of Parliament, who came by way of a report on Senseli Mine, were, actually, laying falsehoods on the Floor of the House?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much. I reserve my ruling. I will come back to this House in a few days to make my ruling.

The Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security may answer the question from the hon. Member for Chama North.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of some sexual abuse cases on detainees in police custody allegedly committed by police officers. The Zambia Police Service recorded three sexual abuse cases allegedly perpetrated by police officers against detainees from January to June 2023, broken down as follows:

1. two cases of sodomy in Lusaka District; and

1. one case of defilement in the Southern Province.

Madam Speaker, the two cases of sodomy are still under investigation while the defilement case is before the courts of law.

Madam Speaker, in the suspected cases of sodomy, police in Lusaka Province, on 30^thMay, 2023, at 1130 hours, recorded two reports in which two male suspects, detained at Kalundu Police Post, were allegedly sodomised by a police officer who was in charge of the post on 28^th May, 2023, between 2030 and 2300 hours.

Madam Speaker, the brief facts of the matter are that, on 28^th May, 2023, around 1800 hours, a named police officer took over the night shift at Kalundu Police Post alone. At about 2030 hours, the officer got one suspect, aged thirty-eight, from the cell, whom he forced to have intercourse with, through the unnatural order, in the Criminal Investigations Office. The suspect was facing a charge of theft. He was allegedly made to penetrate the officer. After the ordeal, the suspect was taken back to the cell with a promise to be released the following morning.

Madam Speaker, later in the night, the officer got another suspect aged twenty-eight, who was also facing a charge of theft, from the cell and took him to the Criminal Investigations Office where he handcuffed him and allegedly forced him to have intercourse with him, through an unnatural order. The officer penetrated the subject in the matter. During the act, the suspect managed to shout and push away the officer. The suspect was later taken back to the cell. In the morning, on 29^th May, 2023, the two victims of the alleged sexual assault reported the matter to the shift personnel who took over duty from the officer.

Madam Speaker, investigations have been instituted. A man-hunt for the officer has since been launched, as he is still absent without official leave (AWOL) or still on the run.

Madam Speaker, in the case of defilement, on 30^th May, 2023, at 1650 hours, Shapande Police Post recorded a report in which a fourteen-year-old girl was allegedly defiled by a police officer between 29^th May, 2023, around 2100 hours and 30^th May, 2023, around 0100 hours at Shapande Police Post in Choma. The matter was reported by the mother of the victim.

Madam Speaker, the circumstances are that the victim was brought to the Police Post by her mother on 29^th May, 2023, at around 1900 hours on allegations that she had stolen money, amounting to K700, from her Airtel mobile money account. The police officer who was on duty detained her. Later in the night, the officer got the minor from the cell and allegedly had carnal knowledge of her in a car that was parked at the police post.

Madam Speaker, the police naturally instituted investigations leading to the arrest of the officer. The matter is before the courts of law.

Madam Speaker the measures the Government is taking to curb the vice and reassure the public are:

1. police officers who have been found wanting in sexual abuse cases and any other criminal cases have been arrested and charged for the alleged offences; and

1. the Zambia Police Service has been undertaking sensitisation programmes to police officers to ensure that they are professional.

Madam Speaker, a commission of inquiry will not be established to probe the depth of the problem because the issue, at the moment, does not warrant or require it to come into place. The Zambia Police has managed to investigate the occurrences and will continue to do so. One of the cases is already before the courts of law.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I thank the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for that detailed response. The Inspector-General of police had made very serious allegations that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government employed junkies in the Police Service, who were sexually abusing detainees. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the police officers who are currently facing those investigations were employed. Were they employed during the PF, United National Independence Party (UNIP) or Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) governments? 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I must say that the New Dawn Government, since its inception, has not had the opportunity to employ or recruit police personnel. Naturally, it could not be the New Dawn Government that employed those police officers. They were employed by the previous Government. It is the one that employed them.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until1100 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, when crime is perpetrated by ordinary citizens, we are safe. However, when it is perpetrated by law enforcement agencies, it is cause for worry. The Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is aware that cases of homosexuality, sodomy in this particular case, have been rising in the past. There have been so many reported cases of children being sodomised. The worst thing, now, is that people who are arrested and put in police custody are now being sodomised by the very people who are supposed to protect them.

Mr Speaker, there was a request by one hon. Member to this august House that, perhaps, we should have discussed the possibilities of stiffening the law on homosexuality, which request was turned down.

Sir, does the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security not think that we have reached a point where we should put aside politics and look at the possibility of stiffening the law to punish perpetrators of homosexuality, if it is now being practised by the very people who should be protecting citizens?

Mr Speaker, I was almost put in cells two weeks ago. You can imagine how scared I was. All of us are potential casualties to those police cells, and then police officers should sodomise us? Therefore, does the hon. Minister not think that we have reached a point where we should discuss the possibility of stiffening the law to deal with perpetrators of homosexuality?

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nkana for that very important question. I must say, here, that what is happening is very unfortunate. Yes, people can be scared that the police, who are supposed to protect us, are doing otherwise, but we should know that, honestly, these are isolated cases. They are not the norm in the Police Service. They are isolated, and in every society, you have some of such abnormalities. So, they are isolated cases and do not warrant our going in to change the laws that govern or punish such offenders because the law, as it is, is stiff enough. All it needs is application.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the procedure is that no officer should go to a police cell alone to get a suspect, whether female or male. Now, with what is happening in police stations, is the hon. Minister saying that officers are not fully supervised to adhere to the procedure that they are supposed to follow?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Nkana, maybe, you want to go and chat outside.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I am very thankful to the hon. Member for that question. I do not think it is an issue of supervision. This is an issue of a lack of adequate manpower, which allows an officer to go alone. If we had adequate manpower, this situation, definitely, would not arise.

Mr Speaker, nonetheless, the Government is looking into the matter, through the annual recruitment programmes that we want instituted. This is meant to ensure that we have adequate manpower so that what the hon. Member has described should not happen. There should be, at least, two and not one officer going to open police cells so that a counter-checking process is implemented. So, this is the situation, and we are working towards ensuring that the problem becomes a thing of the past.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. Indeed, the revelations we are getting, about gender-based violence (GBV) cases in the police, are sad, and something we should not see, going forward.

Mr Speaker, one of the key departments in the Zambia Police, which is tasked to curb GBV, is the Victim Support Unit (VSU). I have observed that this unit has been neglected for a long time. I want to hear what assurances the hon. Minister will give on how the New Dawn can treat this department differently so that it safeguards the children and women who seek protection in the police cells and are not supposed to be victimised by the same police who should protect them.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Maybe, the Acting hon. Minister can comment, but it is a totally different question.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I will answer it in the same way. This, basically, is a lack of adequate man power and we would like to attach the importance to the Victim Support Unit (VSU) that should be attached. As far as we know, every police station has a VSU. What may lack is the adequacy of man power. Again, what we are saying is that, with the annual recruitment programme, we should be able to reinforce the VSUs in each police station that exists at the moment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo (Cham North): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask another follow-up question.

Mr Speaker, since we are seeing a steady rise in cases of police officers sexually abusing detainees, what measures are you putting place, as a ministry, to minimise the contact between female detainees and male police officers? I think that, maybe, you can ensure that more women police officers are recruited.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I think, the hon. Member has answered his own question. The answer is, essentially, that we recruit more females so that there is female-to-female interaction rather than male-to-female interaction. So, the hon. Member has the answer and I would gladly adopt as it as my answer to his question.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: By prior notice, the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics is acting as hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

PLANS TO REHABILITATE THE MANSA/KASHIKISHI ROAD

81. Mr Chibombwe (Bahati) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Mansa/Kashikishi Road;

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

1. when the rehabilitation of the Tuta Road between Chitambo and Samfya Districts will be completed.

The Minister of Transport and Logistics (Mr Tayali) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Mr Speaker, the Government, certainly, has plans to rehabilitate selected sections of the Mansa/Kashikishi Road, which are in poor condition.

Mr Speaker, the plans will be implemented in 2024. The completion of the rehabilitation of the 80km section of the Tuta Road will be known once the procurement process is concluded and a new contractor is engaged.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe: Mr Speaker, I am at sea. The responses from the hon. Minister are not so clear. There is a contractor on site already on the Tuta Road, yet he has just said something to the contrary. This contractor is working though his space is quite slow. It is at snail’s pace. So, I want to find out if this contractor, who is currently on site on the Tuta Road, has been fully funded to complete all the patching up of the 80km from Tuta Bridge to around where the swamp ends.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, his position is the Government’ position unless the hon. Minister wants to shade some light on it.

Mr Tayali: Mr Speaker, it is just to say that unless there is a lapse in time from when this question was submitted but, obviously, this is the position, as has been given to me as Acting hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Speaker, maybe, I am behind. Part of the funding that was coming from the World Bank for the Great North Road was apportioned for works on the Tuta Bridge to Musaila and, of course, from the Kafue Turnpike to Monze. In his response, the hon. Minister said, “Once a contractor is sought.” I understand that, maybe, it is because of the passage of time on the question that the answers are being provided.

Mr Speaker, are we looking for a new contractor and financial mobilisation, after those resources that were saved on the Nakonde to Chinsali Road, as part of the money that was allocated to also work on the Tuta Road up to the Musaila Junction?

Mr Tayali: Mr Speaker, I just want to say that the implementation of the project had been affected by funding challenges, resulting in the termination of the contract when progress was only at 80 per cent.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I was getting confused on the new road which will be going through Mansa/Kaputa/Chienge. It is on the other side of Luapula.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, the importance of that road cannot be over emphasised. Before 2021, there was a contractor on site. I just want, on behalf of the people of Bahati and Bangweulu, to find out whether the contractor who is doing the patching-up is the same one who was on site before 2021.

Mr Tayali: Mr Speaker, I totally agree with the hon. Member on how we cannot over emphasise the importance of that road. Suffice it for me to say that for its rehabilitation, the contract was for periodic maintenance, as I have been made to understand, and that it would have been awarded to Messrs Nakangea Construction Ltd in 2020 for a contract sum of K401 million. However, as was the practice in the previous regime, we do not know the efficaciousness of this particular contract or whether, indeed, funds had been made fully available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development was here because he was going to give us good responses. I do not know whether we can postpone this question and wait for the substantive hon. Minister to come.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Speak up a bit, hon. Member.

Mr Chibombwe: Mr Speaker, the responses we are getting from the Acting hon. Minister are not so good. They are worrisome and not so clear. So, I asked whether we could postpone this question until the substantive hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is here because the Acting hon. Minister seems to me to be so blank. He is basing his responses on hearsay.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member –

Mr Tayali: We can respond, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let me caution the hon. Member.

Interruptions

Hon. Member: Sit down!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, as much as you are asking –

You may resume your seat.

Mr Chibombwe resumed his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us not be offensive in our approach by insinuating that the hon. Minister does not know anything and that he is blank. It would be better if you just asked a question.

Mr Tayali: Allow us to respond, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Minister respond to the question.

Mr Tayali: Madam Speaker, ...

Mr Chibombwe: I have not posed a question yet.

Mr Tayali: ... I just want to respond to the hon. Member and say that the way Government operates, particularly for Parliamentary Business, is that questions and responses are not prepared for acting persons. These are the same answers that the substantive hon. Minister was going to provide to this august House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tayali: So, it appears, Mr Speaker, that it is, indeed, the hon. Member for Bahati who is totally blank.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Tayali: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let me caution the House that if hon. Members already know the answers, then, there is no need to ask questions.

Laughter

_______

MOTION

BUDGET 2024

(Debate resumed)

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Mr Speaker, I had just made a point that the former Republican President, now late, President Mwanawasa, SC., had reminded this country that the stomach is in front for us to know the importance of food.

Mr Speaker, let me address myself to paragraph 3 of the speech, on Page 1. It says:

“Since coming into office just two years ago, our administration has achieved excellent progress in changing the social and economic landscape of our country.”

Mr Speaker, I would like to interrogate that. This statement is very dangerous because it says, “Excellent progress in the social and economic landscape of our country”. I say this because the same speech talks about the Living Conditions Survey, which was done in 2022 and revealed that poverty has, actually, gone up. Now, what excellent progress is that?

Mr Speaker, the price of mealie meal has gone up from K150 to K300. What excellent progress is that? If we talk about fuel, which is one of the issues that will underpin the performance of a Budget, it has moved from K17 to K30 per litre. I doubt what that statement meant by fundamental progress having been achieved. The cost of connecting electricity for domestic use is now at K5,000, from a mere K700 …

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo: … in rural areas. This is a very serious problem for the people of Zambia.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr E. Tembo: By the way, when we talk about problems, these are what we mean. Therefore, we are wondering what economic progress has been made.

Mr Speaker, I agree with the UPND that it has made important progress in the social and economic sphere in destroying the economy. That is very true.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, I, actually, did not know that Zambia was involved in the Russia-Ukraine War. If you look at Page 2, especially paragraph 10, it reads:

         “… Russia-Ukraine war are largely responsible for the subdued economic growth.”

Mr Speaker, the use of the word “largely” has gotten me concerned. How can the Russia-Ukraine war “largely” affect Zambia's economy ...

Mr Mubika: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: ... when we have nothing to do with it? Even here, when the Government voted, it voted against it.

Mr Speaker, surely, a prudent Government, which is methodical and fighting all these things, is failing to come to terms with this.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, let me also say that there is a shortage of maize.

Mr Mubika: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Rev. Katuta: Ah! Wait, iwe!

Mr E. Tembo: Page 6 of the speech reads:

“… traders from countries  with maize shortages started buying maize from Zambia even when it was still green in the fields …”

Other countries can only buy maize with a licence. There is no way a country like the Democratic Republic of Congo can buy maize. Mr Speaker, baka ulisha ma popwe ku Congo aba bantu. What I mean is that they sold all the maize to the DRC, and that is why the mealie meal prices are high.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: I would have loved the hon. Minister to come to terms with the situation and come and tell us that, “Look, this is what we have done. We made a mistake and will not repeat it.”

Mr Speaker, I would have loved to see serious measures taken in the agriculture sector to indicate how we are going to address this issue of the shortage of maize. I am very aware that measures to arrest mealie meal prices are not there. However, there are measures to arrest Opposition political party leaders.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, let me briefly talk about free education. The idea of free education sounds good and –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr E. Tembo: Is there a point order? I am most obliged.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, I want to apologise to my brother for disturbing his line of thought.

Mr Kapyanga: You always apologise.

Rev. Katuta: Apologise pa menshi!

Hon. PF Members: Amenshi, amenshi!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, I am extremely concerned and rise on Standing Order No. 65, which requires us to be factual when we provide this House with information.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor is informing the country that this Government has sold all the maize to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Rev. Katuta: Balishiba nokwishiba!

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, I want to underline the words “All the maize to Congo DRC.” That is an extremely misleading statement. He has further suggested that he has just learned that Zambia has been involved in the war Between Russia and Ukraine.

Hon. PF Member: Awe!

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, this is a very worrying line of debate, as the country is listening and watching.

Mr Mubika: The whole world!

Mr Mposha:  Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to come to the House to mislead the country, through the House with such very destructive information?

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us desist from making alarming statements. I think that two weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Agriculture came to the Floor of the House and mentioned that we have enough strategic reserves.

Mr Mtolo: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, the hon. Member for Feira is completely out of order …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: …for misleading himself and the country.

May the hon. Member for Fiera continue.

Rev. Katuta: Continue!

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, here in the House, there has been talk of free education. Free education was started in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era. Those of us who were living at that time knew the true meaning of free education.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo: In 2012, the PF enacted the Free Education Act. I know that most of these people who talk about free education do not know about that. Free education proper was started by UNIP. Yes, we left out the Parent/Teacher Association (PTA) fees. This was an agreement between parents and teachers. It had nothing to do with the Government. However, they have come to scrap that. So, what is happening is that even paying a guard, when there is no Government funding, is a problem. Those are the things that PTA fees used to take care of. Things required, immediately, like chalk or the repair of a borehole were done from those PTA funds, but now there is a problem because there are no PTA fees.

Mr Speaker, let me also mention that due to the high cost of living, children are now leaving schools. In fact, unlike what the hon. Minister said, children are now helping their parents to raise their standard of living, and –

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I pity the hon. Member on the Floor, who is referred to as the ‘hon. Learned Counsel.’ That is how we refer to him; the learned hon. Counsel for Feira.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member, the learned, in order to insinuate that there is no free education without him laying evidence on the Table to prove his claims? Firstly, has the hon. Member taken time to read the rules that govern the grants? Has he? Let him prove. If not, is he in order?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Hon. Members, as we debate, let us be factual. I think that every hon. Member of Parliament knows that there is free education. As long as you have a constituency, you know that there is free education. So, the hon. Member for Feira is completely out of order.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member continue.

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, my brother has just misled himself because I did not say that there is no free education. I said that there was free education in the Kaunda era, which was real. Then there was also free education, which we started in 2012, but our colleagues only scrapped off the PTA Fund only.

Mr Speaker, let me continue. I was just underscoring the last point on education. I was saying that because of the high mealie meal prices, …

Mr Anakoka rose.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Ah, iwe! This is not your House alone.

Mr E. Tembo: ... what has actually happened is that, instead of attending school, children are going to help their parents to raise money for their livelihood.

Mr Speaker, I mentioned the issue of electricity. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government connected rural areas to the national electricity grid, but our colleagues have raised the connection fees to K5,000 and people in rural areas are failing to access electricity.

Sir, let me also say something on the mining sector. We need to emphasise issues. We cannot run away from the issue of Vedanta Resources Limited. The association with the company is and was, at all material times, a wrong project, ab initio. It was a wrong project from the beginning. I even wonder why my colleagues have brought it back. Limbi bali lyamo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, let me just also indicate that …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, what did you say?

Laughter

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I said that, maybe, their hand was twisted in order for them to forget what they said about Vedanta Resources Limited because it has become a darling today, when it was –

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about taxation. In the Budget, K144 billion will be taxed locally. Now, with this depressed economy, who is the Government going to tax? I want to hear an answer from the hon. Minister. We know that companies are making a lot of money from copper, gold, diamonds, uranium, sugilite, emeralds and many others. Why can we not tax these instead of going to the already finished Zambian?

Mr Speaker: Let me also conclude …

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Your time has expired, hon. Member.

Mr Anakoka: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Anakoka: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I apologise to my colleague for disturbing his thoughts.

Interruptions

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Learned Counsel, who has just finished debating, stated in his debate that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government enacted a ‘Free Education Act.’ I have never heard of such an Act in this country, and it does not exist. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead the nation that there is such an Act when it does not exist? What is there is the Education Act. Is he in order to misled the nation and himself in that manner?

This point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Feira, who has just finished debating, is completely out of order.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as you debate, ensure that whatever utterances you put across on the Floor are issues that you can comprehend very well to avoid misleading the public.

Mr Anakoka: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, an opportunity to cancracate this Budget.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, what did you say?

Mr J. E. Banda: Cancracate.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: What does it mean? Is it a name of someone?

Mr J. E. Banda: It means that the researcher has gone through the Budget, analysed it and done many things, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, the good people of Petauke Central were very happy that the Budget was to be unveiled, and they looked forward to listening to its presentation. I even invited some of them to come and listen to the debate. I went ahead to sensitise them that on the day when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning would be presenting the Budget, everyone should sit and listen attentively. Therefore, everyone followed the proceedings because their hon. Member of Parliament told them to do so. In response to my instruction, when I went there, over the weekend, to hear from them what they got from the Budget Speech, they told me, as their hon. Member of Parliament, to come and tell the House that the prospective Budget was for rich people, and not the poor.

Mr Mposha: Question!

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, yes, I know that someone can say, “Question!” because he/she is drinking mineral water while the people out there are drinking water from wells.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Yes, I will not be moved this time around. I am in charge. So, they should let me talk.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, I will start, firstly, with education. The people of Petauke Central Constituency and the Eastern Province, at large, are crying. When they were listening to the Budget of the rich, they were expecting that even the poor would be represented by the allocation of some funds towards the construction of a university in the Eastern Province.

Mr Speaker, with the good initiative of free education, we need a university in the Eastern Province because there is none. It is good that one of the hon. Speakers the House has been blessed with is from the Eastern Province. However, the people from his constituency, Luangeni, do not have a university to further their education.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not include the Chair in your debate.

You may proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am well guided.

Mr Speaker, the people of the Eastern Province were expecting that after the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning finished drinking water, he would inform them, through the Budget, that some money had been allocated towards the construction of a university in the Eastern Province and that their children, with the free education in place, would not be travelling to Lusaka to battle for places at the University of Zambia (UNZA). So, the people of the Eastern Province are crying.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister also mentioned, in the Budget Speech, that all the provinces would receive new airports. What about an airport for the people of the Eastern Province, including ‘Peta-Uk?’ We were expecting that, maybe, after this meeting, all hon. Members from the Eastern Province would go to the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA), take a flight and land at an airport in the Eastern Province. However, he did not even mention the Eastern Province. It was not included. So, where are we putting the Eastern Province? Is it not supposed to have a share of the cake? What have we done?

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), –

Mr Nkandu: What about Chipata Airport?

Mr J. E. Banda: There is no Chipata Airport. Have they ever seen planes fly to Chipata? They should ask themselves. Ah, they are dull.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, indeed, you have been cautioned, severally, on the Floor of the House. You have to be respectful to your friends, the hon. Members. Withdraw that word and apologise immediately.

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

I withdraw the words, “These hon. Members are dull” and replace them with, “they are not clever.” I am sorry.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, coming to the issue of the CDF, we are very happy that the New Dawn Government increased it from K1.6 million to K25 million, then from K25 million to K28 million and now, to K30 million. I was very happy. However, when I went to the constituency, the people there said, “Hon. Member, you are saying that the CDF is a game changer, but what has it changed in Petauke Central Constituency?”

Mr Speaker, it has changed nothing, and we are crying.

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Wait, I am still debating. Wait. Press on the e-Chamber and then Mr Speaker will allow you.

Mr Speaker, the good people of Petauke Central are saying, “Our Member of Parliament, you sit with your Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC) and approve projects, but the Government, the Executive, does not do its job.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr J. E. Banda: The Executive is not doing its job. Implementation is done by the Executive and not the hon. Members of Parliament. If it has failed on the implementation part, let it transfer all the workers from the councils to the office of the hon. Member of Parliament. That way, we will start monitoring the workers on implementation, –

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Sefulo: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to disturb the flow of the debate of the hon. Member, but I am very concerned about the information that he is giving. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. He is talking about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) not working in Petauke Central. He is also saying that the CDF is not working because of the Executive. Where is the connection between the CDF and the Executive?

Mr J. E. Banda: Question!

Ms Sefulo: No. Let me explain this. I am also a Member of Parliament.

Mr J. E. Banda: Question!

Ms Sefulo: Hon. Member, can you listen.

Mr Speaker, I am also a Member of Parliament of a constituency, and the CDF is working there.

Interruptions

Ms Sefulo: Yes, I am saying that I am also a Member of Parliament and the CDF is working in my constituency. The CDF is given to the councils. When projects are approved, the councils implement them. So, which Executive is he talking about which is failing to implement projects under the CDF? How is the Executive involved? If he is failing to implement projects under the CDF, that is on him. In other constituencies, the CDF is working. He is failing to approve projects and take development, through the CDF, to Petauke Central. That is on him. In Mwandi, we have even completed the approval process even for the 2024 projects. So, what is he talking about?

Interruptions

Ms Sefulo: Is the hon. Member in order to drag the Executive in his own failures?

Mr Mundubile interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, avoid debating while seated.

Mr Mundubile: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are welcome.

Hon. Member, let us confine the debate to things that we may understand on how the Government operates.

So, you can continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As a researcher, I am very worried that we can have hon. Members of Parliament who fail to understand that workers at councils are part of the Executive –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, we do not debate ourselves.

You may proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The good people of Petauke Central said: “Hon. Member of Parliament, we understand that your role together with the CDFC is to approve the CDF projects, in the committee where you sit. When you approve, it is up to the Executive to implement.”

Mr Speaker, I was –

Mr Mposha interjected.

Mr J. E. Banda: Imwe that is why ku Munali badandaula bantu. Kulibe vamene muchita naimwe, ah.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, I am asking for your protection. These hon. Ministers, I do not know the type of – I am sure a reshuffle has just been delayed.

Mr Mabeta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mabeta: Mr Speaker, I am at pains here to continue watching the hon. Member for Petauke Central continuously involve his fellow hon. Members of Parliament in his debate, demeaning them and issuing very inflammatory statements.

Mr Speaker, is he in order, according to Standing Order No. 65, to continue being personal and not focus on issues of national importance?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Petauke Central, desist from involving your fellow Parliamentarians.

I have one word of caution. It just skipped my mind, but I have to bring to light that it should be erased from the record. The hon. Member for Feira mentioned that Zambia is involved in the Ukraine-Russia war. So –

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, resume your seat.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, resume your seat. I am the person who is –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Kampyongo! One of the biggest problems that people have is the presumption that they know it all. It is not a very good thing.

Interjections

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I heard with –

Interjections

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I do not want to engage with you on this one. I heard. It was at the back of my mind. Let us desist from making such comments. This is a caution to the hon. Member for Feira and the House, at large. Let us desist from making such alarming statements. This is becoming a growing trend. Yesterday, something on a similar path was said. Let us desist from such.

Who was on the Floor? The hon. Member for Petauke Central may proceed.

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I was expecting, again, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, when delivering this Budget, to tell the people of Zambia that the K30 million, which will now be given to each constituency, will have no directives given and that he would let the people be in charge of the whole amount, as opposed to what used happen with the K28 million, where people were only in charge of choosing what to do with only K10.5 million of the amount. Let the people be in charge of the whole amount.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 requires that every time we make a submission on the Floor of this House, we must be factual.

Mr Speaker, the three arms of the Government are the Legislature, which is us here; the Executive, that is divided –

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu: Standing Order No. 65 requires us to issue factual submissions on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, I am raising this point of order on the hon. Member for –

Interjections

Mr B. Mpundu: Teiwe Presiding Officer. What are you talking about?

Mr Speaker, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are raising a point of order on whom?

Mr B. Mpundu: On the hon. Member for Mwandi.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You cannot raise a point of order on another point of order. Our rules do not allow.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, we can raise a point of order on what is tendered in this House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, our rules say that if one has risen on a point of order, another cannot counter it with a point of order.

Mr B. Mpundu: She is no longer speaking, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, no, no. What you are referring to, hon. Member – may you resume your seat.

Mr B. Mpundu: No. We can challenge anything that has been tendered before the House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, resume your seat.

Mr B. Mpundu resumed his seat.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let me guide the House. The reference that the hon. Member is making is on the point of order that the hon. Member for Mwandi raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: It is against what she is saying.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, if there is a complaint, there is a way you can make it.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Kang’ombe.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, thank you for this very important opportunity you have given me.

My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 44 – Duties of the Leader of the Opposition, and, specifically, in part (c):

“assist the presiding officers to maintain discipline in the House.”

So, Mr Speaker, we –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You did not indicate on who that point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: It is on the House. I am asserting my role to help you. I want to help you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You cannot. The rules do not allow you to do that.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: It is here (holding up a copy of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021).

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

That is one of your roles, but the rules on how you can raise a point of order do not allow it.

Mr Mundubile: How?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Read your rules. They do not allow that.

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, if ...

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: That is one of your roles.

Mr Mundubile: ... you allowed me to speak, it could assist you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Resume your seat, hon. Member.

Mr Mundubile resumed his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It is not allowed. So, your point of order is not admitted.

Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, let us proceed.

Mr Mundubile stood.

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, you are causing a problem now in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, no.

Mr Mundubile: Do not say “no”. You are causing a problem in the House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, proceed.

Mr Mundubile: For as long as you are only going to allow those (pointing to the right) to speak, there is going to be a problem here. We are ready to be punished, Mr Speaker. We will not continue with this mediocrity –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Serjeant-At-Arms!

Mr Mundubile: We will not continue with this mediocrity. For as long as you only allow them to speak and my hon. Members cannot speak – No! We cannot allow this. This is a House of order!

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mundubile: I am ready to face the consequences on behalf of my hon. Members!

Mr Mposha: Eh, okay!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Serjeant-At-Arms!

The Sergeant-At-Arms walked to the Leader of the Opposition and asked him to leave the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Serjeant-At-Arms, ensure that the Leader of the Opposition is out of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Serjeant-At-Arms, do your job. Ensure that he is out.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Those of you going out are free to do so. We will continue with business.

Hon. Opposition Members walked out of the Assembly Chamber.

Business was suspended from1156 hours until 1204 hours.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We can proceed. We have a quorum.

Hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, you may proceed.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Budget Speech that was made in this august House by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, allow me to touch on, first of all, the theme of good governance and the rule of law. From the time the United Party for National Development (UPND) came into power, it has demonstrated that it is a Government of laws and –

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 207 – Contempt of the House. My point of order is raised in line with the behaviour of the Leader of the Opposition in the House. Standing Order No. 207(1) and (2) (b) state:

“207.(1) Contempt of the House refers to an act, omission or conduct, which obstructs or impedes either the House or members or officer in the discharge of their duties.

(2) (b) a reflection on the character or impartiality of the Speaker in the discharge of the Speaker's duties.”

Mr Speaker, I was seated here watching the drama, as it unfolded, and this was not for the first time. This is a respectable House. It is a House that is called honourable. That is why the Members of this House are called hon. Members.

Mr Speaker, my point of order is on the behaviour the Leader of the Opposition in the House has displayed not only today but I think, also in the previous days. He has stood there, pointing fingers and doing all sorts of drama in this House that we call the people’s House.

Mr Speaker, this House should not allow itself to degenerate to a level where it is ungovernable. There must be discipline in this House. The House should rise to its best so that it can be orderly. The etiquette and decorum of the House do not accept the level of behaviour that has been displayed.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Leader of the Opposition in order to continue behaving in the manner and fashion in which he has, including today? Is that behaviour acceptable before this House?

I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. I reserve my ruling on this point of order so that I can study the matter effectively and render my ruling at a later date. I thank you.

May the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi continue.

Mr Mutinta: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. On good governance and the rule of law, through this Budget, we want to see the cadreism that has shifted from markets to this House addressed. This stubbornness that we have seen from markets and bus stations moving into this House should be addressed. The reason some of the people are behaving as they are is that they are trying to overshadow something we cannot see. Can this Budget start addressing that cadreism we are seeing in this House.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), honestly, how can someone say that it is not working? If you went to Itezhi-Tezhi, today, and threw a stone, there is a chance that it would land on a project.

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutinta: Where was that seen from the time Zambia became Independent? It is surprising to see someone say that the use of the CDF is being frustrated by the Executive when he does not want to implement it deliberately. There are hon. Members who are still implementing the CDF allocation for 2021. I want to challenge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to conduct thorough investigations because that is sabotaging of the people of Zambia. If I am to give an example of what is happening, at the moment, in Itezhi-Tezhi, in less than two years, we have managed to put up not less than 150 water points in various places in the district.

Mr Speaker, in the same period, we have also managed to build twenty-eight classroom blocks and eight houses for medical staff. We have also procured equipment for the council. This is something we never dreamt we could have, as a council. What more would somebody demand from this good Government?

Mr Speaker, the CDF is a game changer. Let this increment we have seen be shifted to the hon. Members of Parliament who want to serve their people if other hon. Members of Parliament do not want it.

Mr Speaker, I am very happy that this Budget has effected an increment on the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). As hon. Members are aware, we have a President who is inspiring young people to do away with white collar jobs, be entrepreneurs and start their own businesses. My brother, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, is at pains looking for money that will empower many young people who want to fend for themselves.

Mr Speaker, we have seen a slight increment, but I wish we could add a little more on the CEEC so that many young people can stand on their own and start their businesses. Very few can queue up for the white collar jobs like teaching. At the moment, the Government is struggling to consume all of them in the service.

Mr Speaker, coming to the health sector, we cannot do without a healthy people in the nation. This Government has made a decision to be very deliberate in ensuring quality health. This Budget is addressing infrastructure in the health sector. It has continued to provide for the recruitment of additional health personnel. Sometimes, it is very surprising to see an hon. Member of Parliament being against the intention of the Government to recruit health personnel.

Mr Speaker, in my constituency, there was a clinic that used to cater for over fifteen residences, with only one girl managing it. As I speak, there is no clinic which is completely under-staffed. Our people are accessing good services and are no longer walking long distances. Through the CDF, we have managed to add three clinics in our communities.

Mr Speaker, coming to environmental protection, hon. Members are aware that, last year, the ministry and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) struggled to deal with climate mitigation and the disasters that we witnessed. We have seen a slight increase, again, in this Budget that is going to help us address most of the issues the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment mentioned, yesterday. We are hoping that the allocation will be increased so that we manage to deal with the climate crisis that we are experiencing, as a country.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, we have seen that the Budget for agriculture is dealing with the fundamentals that need to be managed in order to unlock the price of mealie meal and ensure diversification of the sector from only crop-agriculture to cattle rearing and other products. Therefore, with what has been added, I am very positive that constituencies like Itezhi-Tezhi, with over 45,000 animals, are going to see a reduced burden of disease on their animals and a lot of value addition in the sector. We look forward to a time, as the Budget continues being enhanced, when we shall have milk collection centres in our constituencies and build additional dams, dip tanks and many other livestock services being provided in our constituencies.

Mr Speaker, lastly, let me address the education sector, which was already mentioned. Free education is a game changer. Currently, over 2 million children, who were potential junkies, are now in school. The Government has increased grants to schools. Teachers are being remunerated very well. However, I strongly feel that issues around the upgrading of teachers, who have qualified for higher grades, should also continue to be dismantled in the coming Budget. 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, since the people who are very provocative are not here, I will allow other hon. Members of Parliament, who are very progressive, to debate.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you so much for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, an opportunity to support the Budget Speech by our able Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Musokotwane.

Mr Speaker, from the outset, may I indicate that the people of Mbabala do support this Budget. It is an excellent and progressive one.

Mr Speaker, poverty has increased to 60 per cent in the recently reported Living Conditions Monitoring Survey. This is attributed to the bad and careless ten years of the Patriotic Front (PF) regime. This is a 2022 report, which showed that during the entire ten years of the PF, the country was at sea.

Mr Speaker, the country could not support its citizens. Its citizens were neglected. The Bridges that collapsed on the entire Pemba Road, in Maunza/Kacenge area, and the Macha Chambwa Bridge in Mbabala Constituency where neglected and not repaired for ten years.

Mr Speaker, children who wanted to attend school could not. Over 2 million children were not in school because of the carelessness of the PF regime.

Mr Speaker, we saw negligence in the area of water and sanitation. There were no boreholes and repair of dams. Our dams cracked. Kabanaze, Mbole and many other dams cracked, but could not be repaired for the entire ten years of the PF.

Mr Speaker, animal disease prevalence went up. Our animals were lost. Many assets got lost as a result of the negligence of the PF regime in ten years. Therefore, when a progressive budget comes, like this one which is unlocking the economy and the various areas that have stagnated it, we are very happy.

Mr Speaker, we have heard, on this Floor, some quack accountants failing to add up figures and giving us wrong ones on the Borrowing Plan, which is in black and white and everybody can read. However, people want to mislead this nation for the selfish reasons of not taking development to the people. We heard somebody talk about the gini coefficient formula, which they do not understand. Again, this is a measure of dispersion. In this Budget, we have provided for free education to everybody in the country. In this Budget, we have provided for nutrition for all the children in the country to the tune of K100 million. We have provided a budget of K4 billion for drugs. These are areas, including the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), that are equalising the whole country. So, what measure of dispersion is he looking at? Unless a person does not understand statistics, poverty is being fought with a clear work plan.

Mr Speaker, when we get to the social sectors, under social protection, there is the Food Security Pack (FSP) programme, which is very clearly outlined to fight poverty. We have the Social Cash Transfer Programme, which is very clearly outlined, and whose number of beneficiary recipients is being increased. Even under the FSP, recipient households are being increased to 242,000. The Social Cash Transfer recipient households are being increased to over 1.3 million plus. There are also other support programmes, including the Credit Facility for agriculture, which my people in Mbabala are very happy with because they are hard working people. They want to see the great Agriculture Credit Scheme implemented so that –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mbabala, withdraw the word ‘quacks.’

Mr Munsanje: Mr Speaker, I withdraw. These are incompetent accountants who actually mislead themselves and also try to mislead this country.

Mr Speaker, we, the people of Mbabala Constituency, see ourselves very well in this Budget because it has various components that are meeting our demands. We have talked about the animal and livestock development programmes. We are seeing the revitalisation of the Choma Animal Disease Control Programme.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: We want to ensure that it comes on board to safeguard our animals in Mang'unza, Malindi and many other areas in Mbabala. We are strong farmers and want our animals to be safe. Therefore, that programme is essential.

Madam Speaker, we are going to see many other programmes that are going to respond to our demands, including the Water-Harvesting Programme, which I talked about. There were floods that destroyed our assets, but we want to turn the floods into an advantage so that we can now harvest the water and use it for irrigating our crops and feed people who are making noise and do not want to work. For us, it is to work, work and work. That is our motto and our way of life. That is how we were born.

Mr Chikote: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: We were born working. We do not like to borrow and beg. Mbo twaamba kuti butolo mu Chitonga, meaning laziness in Tonga. As a young boy, I would go the whole day herding cattle, and this man seated there just wants to eat T-bone, but does not even know where it comes from. So, that is the laziness that we are talking about. We want to see people who are working. That is why we want to get our people educated and ensure their health by ensuring that medicines and everything is there so that they can work and produce. We will produce for export because it is from exporting that this country will earn more income and have a bigger Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: We will only grow the GDP of this country when we produce and export to other nations.

Mr Speaker, the manufacturing industry is growing. For the first time, we are self-sufficient on fertiliser. That is what the people of Mbabala want; fertiliser everywhere, in all corners of Mbabala, from Kabanse, Simaubi to Mbabala itself and from Mapanza to Ng’onga. We want to see fertiliser there. That fertiliser will give us the net surplus for us to export maize. We want to establish our own milling facilities. We want to establish our own agriculture marketing board to collect all the foodstuff that we produce and sell. So, we call upon Hon. Mtolo to help us to establish it. He is a hard-working hon. Minister of Agriculture and is making us make Zambia proud.

Mr Speaker, we support this Budget and congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on the job well-done.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1223 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 10^th October, 2023.

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