Friday, 15th September, 2023

Friday, 15^thSeptember, 2023

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government Business, the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jack Jacob Mwiimbu, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, 15^th September, 2023, until further notice.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the House Business Committee met on Thursday, 14^th September, 2023, to determine and schedule the Business of the House for the period 19^th to 22^nd September, 2023. In this regard, the Committee resolved to lay before the House the following business for consideration:

Announcements

The Hon. Madam Speaker may make announcements to the House on any day when it is necessary to do so.

Rulings

The Hon. Madam Speaker may render rulings, if there will be any.

Ministerial Statements

Hon. Ministers may make ministerial statements, if there will be any.

Private Members’ Motions

On 20^th September, 2023, Mr Munir Zulu will present a Private Member’s Motion entitled: Create Separate Police Cells for Minor Offences.

Reports of Parliamentary Delegations

Reports of Parliamentary delegations to international conferences will be considered, if there will be any.

Parliamentary Committee Reports

The House will consider the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mr Roy Ngulube to serve as Clerk of the National Assembly; Dr Pamela Towela Sambo, Dr Felicity Kayumba Kalunga, Mrs Panic Malawo Chilufya and Fr Joseph Komakoma to serve as Chairperson, Vice-Chairperson and Commissioners of the Human Rights Commission, respectively; and Dr Tommy Susiku Namitondo to serve as Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Questions

Hon. Ministers will respond to twenty Questions for Oral Answer as set out, hereunder. The details of the questions are contained in the Notice of Questions circulated to all hon. Members.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House Business Committee, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 189(5) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, I have the pleasure to present the business for next week to this august House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PAMBASHE CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON RECENT INSTANT MOB JUSTICE INCIDENTS

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, my matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Mr Chitotela resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: What is the matter, hon. Member?

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, in the recent past, Zambia has experienced incidents of instant mob justice where lives have been lost. The best example is what happened this week, on Wednesday, in the district of Mumbwa in the Western Province, where two businessmen –

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Sorry, it is in the Central Province, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mumbwa is in the Central Province.

Hon. Member for Pambashe, yesterday, you did indicate that, and I advised. So, I do not know whether we have reviewed that discussion. I had advised that you file in an urgent question. As you may know, the police are still investigating the matter. So, maybe, you file in an urgent question unless the hon. Minister is ready to make a comment now.

Mr Mwiimbu indicated assent.

Madam Speaker: You may go ahead, hon. Minister.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, there was communication that if I would be allowed, I would issue two ministerial statements; one on the purported gold scandal and the other on the issue which the hon. Member has just raised. So, I am ready to present, if allowed.

Madam Speaker: In that case, since this matter has been raised and the hon. Minister is ready, he will render a ministerial statement at an appropriate time after he is called upon to do that today.

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHAMA NORTH CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF TOURISM, MR SIKUMBA, ON HUMAN-ANIMAL CONFLICT IN CHAMA

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed at the hon. Minister of Tourism, although I cannot see him in this House.

Madam Speaker: I hope it is not on human-animal conflict.

Laughter

Mr Mtayachalo: It is, Madam Speaker, ...

Madam Speaker: What is the matter, hon. Member for Chama North?

Laughter

Mr Mtayachalo: … but it is a very serious matter.

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether the hon. Member recalls that, last week, the hon. Member for Isoka raised a similar matter and I indicated how we wanted to proceed. Maybe we leave it for now. We can look at it in due course, especially when the hon. Minister of Tourism comes back.

Mr Mtayachalo rose.

Madam Speaker: Do you still want to say something, hon. Member for Chama North?

Mr Mtayachalo: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, stray lions have been terrorising villagers in Chibale, in Nkanka Ward for three consecutive days. I have been in touch with the warden there; yesterday and just a few minutes ago. Officers from the Department of National Parks and Wildlife (DNPW) are saying that they are scared to go to that area because people have been very hostile in the past. So, children have stopped going to school. So far, livestock has been killed and now, people are worried that lives might be lost. So, this is the situation.

Madam Speaker, the councillor also just called me a few minutes ago and told me that lions went to his home around 0200 hours. So, the situation is quite desperate.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Member: Nangu fye ukushilowa.

Madam Speaker: It is a very difficult issue to deal with. I think when the hon. Minister comes back, we can ask him to deliver a statement, maybe, on Thursday next week. We need to give him time to come back. So, the hon. Minister of Tourism will deliver a ministerial statement on that matter next week, on Thursday.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

ALLEGED GOLD SCANDAL

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for according me the opportunity to make two ministerial statements pertaining to issues of public interest.

Madam Speaker, I shall start with the issue of the alleged gold scandal that occurred on 13^th August, 2023. As I present this ministerial statement, it is important to note that this particular matter is currently in court. I urge my colleagues not to raise issues that hinge on matters that are currently in court.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, that is just a reminder. You know that our rules do not allow us to deal with questions that are pending in court. Otherwise, we can ask the hon. Minister not to render the statement. Maybe, he can just render the one on –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: He wants to brief us on what happened. Maybe, some hon. Members are not interested to know, but, I think, the hon. Minister is ready. It was approved. Let him render a ministerial statement and then we proceed from there.

Hon. Minister, proceed.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, let me thank you for giving me the opportunity to update the nation, through this House, on the alleged gold scandal that was unearthed by law enforcement officers at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA) on 13^th August, 2023. Similarly, I want to thank the investigative wings for dedicating significant amounts of time to sorting out the alleged scandal over the last half of the month of August 2023.

Madam Speaker, as this august House may already have noted, the country has vast mineral resources, including gold. In recent months, major discoveries of gold deposits have been made across the country. This development has attracted a number of local and foreign nationals to exploit the resource for personal benefit. As a consequence, there has been an upsurge in illegal mining and processing of minerals in the country.

Madam Speaker, for the matter at hand, let me present the brief facts. On 13^th august, 2023, a foreign aircraft with registration number T7 WSS Global Express Jet landed at KKIA from Cairo, Egypt. The aircraft was conveying Mr Michael Adel Michel Botros, an Egyptian national and renowned international businessman, for a business transaction at the instigation of a named local Zambian businessman and another foreign business partner. In particular, Mr Botros was scheduled to purchase gold, for which he made a down payment to cater for, among other things, trans-shipment and customs clearance of the purported gold. To this end, the so-called suppliers of the gold engaged various players to facilitate access to KKIA for the transaction, which appears to have been a scam.

Madam Speaker, following a tip-off, the law enforcement agencies impounded the aircraft in question and searched it. After the search, the following items were found and seized from the aircraft:

US$5,697,700;

purported gold weighing about 127 kg in 602 bars;

four bars of gold, weighing 1,414g, authenticated by the relevant authorities;

five pistols and eleven pistol magazines;

rounds of ammunition amounting to126; and

one drilling machine.

Madam Speaker, based on these findings, law enforcement agencies decided to charge five Egyptians and six Zambians with espionage on the premise that they accessed the air-side, which is a restricted area, for purposes that were prejudicial to the safety and interest of the Republic of Zambia contrary to Section 3(a) of the State Security Act, Cap. 111 of the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the four crew members of the Global Express Jet were cleared and released from custody and returned to their different countries. On Friday, 1^st September, 2023, the State entered a nolle prosequi in respect of the five Egyptians and one Zambian national while the rest were committed to the High Court.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to report that law enforcement agencies have since recovered more fake gold and arrested various accomplices, who participated in the processing and transporting of the fake gold to KKIA. In addition, various accounts of suspects have been restricted and recoveries of the monies suspected to have been bribes and extortions from the victims have been made. At the same time, investigative wings have launched the pursuit of those who participated in the crime and are believed to be hiding within and outside the country.

Madam Speaker, in order to address the unlawful exploitation of our natural resources, especially gold, the Government has deployed security personnel at the various sites identified to have gold and other mineral deposits, following the declaration of gold as a strategic mineral, and enhanced collaboration between the Mines Safety Department and security agencies besides improving intelligence gathering, among other measures.

Madam Speaker, combating all forms of criminal activities is a top New Dawn Administration priority. That is especially true when the criminal activity involves exploitation of the country’s much sought after resources; resources that could change the lives of many of our citizens. We are committed to protecting our resources and will continue to respond to this challenge.

Madam Speaker, to anyone thinking of engaging in criminal activities, my advice is simple. Do not. No matter where you are or who you are, we will find you and prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law. We will not allow our citizens or the critical resources that they are endowed with to be preyed upon by those seeking to satisfy their selfish desires.

The Government shall continue to relentlessly deal with perpetrators of crime while creating a conducive environment for legitimate business transactions. More importantly, the Government remains committed to ensuring that no one is shielded for engaging in crimes, regardless of their status while suspects are afforded their rights in accordance with the law.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, may I also take this opportunity to commend the members of the joint investigative team that has been assembled to look into the occurrence, and the various investigative wings as well as the general public for the job well done, so far, in helping to unveil the mystery surrounding the gold scam. I must, however, hasten to mention that the investigative wings require capturing the remaining fugitives and, as such, the co-operation of the general public is very much needed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, for purposes of housekeeping, for now, we can deal with the first ministerial statement. Hon. Members can ask questions on the first statement so that we do not commingle the two.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, in my language, we say, chitukuko niwe mwine, meaning that development is on your own.

Madam Speaker, listening to the hon. Minister giving us this statement, I am a bit worried and happy. So, you may wish to know why I am both worried and happy. Today, if the hon. Minister went into the rural parts of this country, and to be specific, in the Luangwa and Luano valleys, starting from up there to Feira, he would find that there are people mining gold illegally. That is because when they go to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to access artisanal mining licences, it is a nightmare. Six months or one year can pass without the artisanal mining licence being given.

Madam Speaker, foreigners who are in these areas – We are talking about the scandal at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA), but if the hon. Minister knew what is happening in the rural areas of our country, he would bleed. There are GX vehicles in these areas as I speak. In fact, immediately the rain season ends, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Nyimba, now, you are debating. Can you get to your point of clarification.

Mr Menyani Zulu: I am sorry, Madam Speaker, I did not ask for your indulgence. Please, just allow me to say this because we are losing a lot of money. We are busy chasing the little things at the airport when there are bigger things that are happening out there and no one is looking at them.

Madam Speaker, allow me to commend the United Party for National Development (UPND) for coming up with Ward Development Committees (WDCs). If we can fully utilise them, this country will not be begging for money from the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

Madam Speaker, now that the Government has put security measures in place in some areas in this country, what is it thinking about foreigners, especially from East Africa, who are busy, even now, looting the resources of this nation?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the other leg of the issue being raised by the hon. Member of Parliament will be addressed at an appropriate time by my colleague, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Speaker, I just want to inform the nation that wherever these foreigners are present, and we have been briefed of their presence, we have taken appropriate action. Right now, we have a number of foreigners in our correctional facilities. If hon. Colleagues are aware of any place which has been invaded by foreigners, they should, please, inform us. We may not be everywhere to know what is happening. We shall rely on them, as our co-operating partners, to ensure that our resources are protected. However, I can assure them that we will take appropriate action.

Madam Speaker, at the same time, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is processing artisanal mining licences to ensure that Zambians benefit from our mineral endowment.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, this issue of seeing planes landing in the nation and actually getting cleared, but ending up engaging in illicit activities – We saw, also, in the past, how planes would land and even terrorise animals in our national parks. They would collect some wildlife and depart without any trace. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that this issue of planes landing in the country and engaging illicit activities then deciding just to vanish without any trace is curbed?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the rules pertaining to clearance of planes to land in this country are very clear. I have no doubt in my mind that when members of the public or of the international community request for landing rights, they will not disclose that they are here to commit crimes. They do disclose genuine reasons as per requirements of the International Air Transport Association (IATA) rules. It is only when they engage in other activities that investigative wings come in and deal with those issues appropriately.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, let me begin by informing the hon. Minister that there are foreigners who are illegally looting our gold in Mpika. I am sure he is well aware.

Madam Speaker, in Egyptian media outlets, it was reported that some of those Egyptians were military officers and intelligence officers who are highly linked. In the prosecution process, a nolle prosequi is usually entered into when there is no sufficient evidence.

Mr Haimbe, SC: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, the point of order is raised pursuant to Standing Order 65 No. (1)(a) and (b); relevance and the need to produce evidence.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member debating on the Floor of the House has referred to some publications from a foreign nation upon which he is anchoring his debate without tabling the said publications on the Table. Is he in order to do so?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

To the extent that the hon. Member for Mpika referred to some publication, which is not before the House, he is out of order. Hon. Member, as you ask the question, you should bear in mind that the matter is in court. So, as you ask questions, please, bear in mind that aspect.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I am always guided by your wisdom. We are discussing a very contentious public issue. I was saying that in the prosecution process, a nolle prosequi is entered into when there is no sufficient evidence in a particular case. In this case, there is sufficient evidence and, by our laws, an accomplice to a crime –

Mr Haimbe, SC.: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Ah!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can we make some progress.

Let me just give guidance. Hon. Member for Mpika, please, as you ask your question on your point of clarification and be factual. The issue of whether or not there was evidence, I think, is not within your knowledge. So, if you could, just ask your question on your point of clarification without going into the nitty-gritty of whether there was sufficient evidence or not.

You may proceed.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In that case, let me ask my question. What reasons were given for those Egyptians to be released when the Zambian accomplices are facing trial before our courts of law? Why were the Egyptians released?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I did make a statement that this matter is in court and we should not delve into the details of the issues that are currently under court processes. So, I will not be able to answer that.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I think we are treading on very thin ice here. It is very difficult for hon. Members to distinguish between what matter they can ask on and what matter touches on the case that is in court.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Please, hon. Members, as we ask, let us not touch on the actual case that is in court because when you start asking why the Egyptians were discharged, you will now start going into the issues that are still pending determination before the courts of law.

Hon. Member for Mpika, do you have another question or you are done? Ask a question that does not touch on the court proceedings.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

It is very difficult and delicate to ask on this case, indeed. However, the hon. Minister stated that security officers have been deployed in areas where gold deposits have been discovered. In Mpika, we have three such sites. Foreigners and others, who are politically connected, are mining illegally. Could it be that part of the gold which was confiscated at the Kenneth Kaunda International “sausage” Airport (KKIA) came from these areas where illegal activities are happening?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: I can see that we are really struggling with this matter. I am sure that is a matter which is still pending in court. Maybe, we make progress.

The hon. Member for Pambashe may proceed.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: We will allow a few questions. If we see that we are having challenges, maybe, we will leave it.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I will be very sensitive to not touch on security matters, having served on the defence council and having taken the oath of office, but I will ask my colleague, the hon. Minister, on the statement made by his friend, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Speaker, he clearly stated, when he issued the first statement and here, that there were 602 pieces of purported gold and four pieces of confirmed gold. Two hours after the seizure, his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development issued a statement and told the nation that the Government had conducted the test and all the 600. In two hours, the Government had worked on the samples and had discovered that they were all copper, zinc and some other minerals that are non-gold related, thereby jeopardising the investigations. Does the hon. Minister think it was an ideal situation for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to issue a statement that 606 pieces were tested in two hours? Is that possible?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Again, it is very difficult. Anyway, the hon. Minister is here.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, if my colleague has a question for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, he should pose it to him and not to me.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, in my ministerial statement, I did not mention the figure 606. I mentioned 602. So, he should ask me on the 602 kg of purported gold and not what my colleague said. He should ask him. He is here (pointing at the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development).

Laughter

Madam Speaker: I understand the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is yet to come and deliver a ministerial statement. So, please, save those questions for him. I think that at the rate we are going, we can move to the next –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: I think let us make progress because –

Hon. Members interjected.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are still –

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: However, bear in mind, hon. Members, that if you touch on matters pending in court, you will be curtailed. So, I will just follow the list then.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that statement. He mentioned that the four crew members were released and had since returned to their places of origin. The five Egyptians were released on a nolle prosequi. Could the hon. Minister state what has happened to the over US$5 million, the ammunition and the firearms that were found at the scene? Where are the items and the monies?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Now that is going into the matter that is pending in court.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we make progress.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, mine is in the interest of the welfare of Zambians. I have listened very attentively to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and followed the reports over this matter. In his submission, he says that the people who are behind the gold scam or in custody have been charged with espionage because a plane was cleared to land in Zambia. Now, in his own statement, again, he says that when a plane is landing, it does not matter because people on it submit that they come with good intentions and that is why they are given the leeway to land. So, we can, therefore, assume that when those people were coming in, they submitted that they were coming to do a genuine business transaction, which genuine business transaction happened to have been with question marks. So, the police are mandated to charge. They charged them with espionage and, later on, we were told there was aggravated robbery.

Madam Speaker, the foreigners have gone away, the two accomplices to the crime which is alleged to have been committed, but our people are still languishing in police custody. Why do we have this soft spot for foreigners? We let them go free when they are part of the espionage, but the Zambians languish in custody. Why do we not just call it a failed business transaction and let our people also go? Would it not be prudent that we also let our people go because this is simply a failed transaction as opposed to persecuting them and letting the foreigners go? This is my question to the hon. Minister.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want to state that the investigative wings had their own reasons certain matters were decided in the way they were decided. I would not want to go into detail. Hon. Members should wait. When the matter commences in court, they will hear why certain things had been done that way.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I think we can close this matter. We are not making any progress. Let us move on. I have also permitted the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to make another ministerial statement.

Interruptions

Mr Kalobo interjected.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Wusakile, the official language in this House is English. Now why are you engaging and debating, while you are seated, in a language which is not permitted in the House?

ALLEGED RITUAL KILLINGS AND RIOTS IN MUMBWA DISTRICT

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, let me thank you for giving me the opportunity to deliver a ministerial statement to update the nation on the events that happened in Mumbwa District, following suspected ritual killings of two persons.

Madam Speaker, allow me, in the first place, on behalf of the Government of Zambia and, indeed, on my own behalf, to sincerely express my deepest condolences to the families of the two men who were allegedly murdered by suspected ritual killers and the families of the other two persons who died following the riotous behaviour of the members of the community.

Madam Speaker, it is time for our country to take stock of what happened in Mumbwa District on Wednesday, 13^th September, 2023. The nation, through different platforms, witnessed some of the most heinous acts in Mumbwa District. Life and decades of hard work burnt to the ground, in a few hours. What happened in Mumbwa was strange and alien to our traditions. That behaviour we saw on Wednesday does not represent us, as a peaceful people of Zambia as a whole, nor does it represent our good citizens of Mumbwa District.

Madam Speaker, the death of the four persons in Mumbwa District ranks among the crudest forms of violence in the land. The riotous behaviour of some sections of society will not make this nation succumb to violence. We will use all means available to rid this country of such senseless acts that deprive our people of their rights and freedoms.

Madam Speaker, although the start of the riot was spontaneous, the subsequent acts of violence were calculated. This was just a pure act of criminality. The spate of violence in Mumbwa District was triggered by the alleged murder of two persons by suspected ritual killers.

Madam Speaker, let me give the brief facts on what occurred in Mumbwa District on 8^th September, 2023. On 8^thSeptember, 2023, around 2200 hours, the body of Joseph Miyato, aged twenty-six years, was found in the middle of a gravel road in his home compound of Kafwabi in Mumbwa District by passers-by, who later reported the matter to the Zambia Police Service in the same district. The body was open from the chest down to the groin, with the heart and private parts missing. The deceased was believed to have left home the previous day around 0600 hours, but never returned. The police instituted investigations in the matter.

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 13^th September, 2023, another body, identified to be of Mwiya Kashweka, was found dumped in the same area of Kafwabi by members of the public. The members of the public apprehended one person suspected to have been behind the killing and handed him over to the Zambia Police Service in Mumbwa District.

Madam Speaker, when word went round that one suspect in the ritual killing had been apprehended and handed over to the Zambia Police Service, a mob assembled and demanded instant justice. When the police refused to release the suspect, the mob became unruly and violent. In the process, the mob set ablaze the veterinary office, burning to ashes equipment and medicine.

Two motor vehicles that had been involved in accidents and were parked at the police station were also destroyed. After this trail of destruction, the riotous group moved into the town centre where it looted a number of shops before attacking and killing a Tanzanian businessman, David Arnold Mwachiyoma, and a Zambian businessman, Earnest Sikaonga, at his lodge, which was also set ablaze. The businessmen were attacked and killed by the irate mob on suspicion that they were behind the alleged ritual killings.

Madam Speaker, the bodies of the two victims of the riotous behaviour have been deposited in the Mumbwa District Hospital Mortuary awaiting post-mortem. The Zambia Police Service has instituted investigations in the matter.

Madam Speaker, two suspects have been apprehended in connection with the suspected ritual killings and are helping the Zambia Police Service with investigations. In addition, more suspects and persons have been apprehended for riotous behaviour and theft in Mumbwa.

Madam Speaker, we cannot have citizens behaving as if their choices have no consequences. Criminal behaviour has literally arrived at people’s doorsteps.

Madam Speaker, at this juncture, I also want to inform the nation that the looting has not just ended in Mumbwa, but has also extended to other towns, including Itezhi-Tezhi, where, last night, members of the public looted a number of premises as a result of what they alleged had happened in Mumbwa.

Mr Kapyanga: Insala! Insala!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is a very irresponsible statement, Madam Speaker. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika cannot talk like that when there are lives that have been lost in this country. That is the individual who was talking recklessly at one time.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: You cannot talk like that.

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mpika, please, restrain yourself from commenting.

Mr Kapyanga: He was the one talking to me –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No. You said “insala.” So, please, please, let us be sensitive to these issues.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, this is a very emotive issue. People have lost their lives. Currently, businessmen in Mumbwa are being targeted for killing, yet he wants to be making reckless statements on the Floor of this House. That is being irresponsible. We should not accept that.

Madam Speaker, the values and principles we aspire to uphold, as a nation, are under threat. We should all introspect, as individuals and as social members of our communities. We cannot go on the path of members of the public taking pleasure in taking the law into their own hands. This unacceptable behaviour must stop forthwith.

Madam Speaker, one of the New Dawn Government’s very first acts signalled priority to restore order in the country, especially in public places, and to build public confidence in our law enforcement agencies. That passion is stronger today than ever. I urge all peace-loving Zambians to allow our law enforcement agencies to do their work. If we do not allow law enforcement agencies to do their work, innocent people can be targeted and killed without any iota of evidence.

Madam Speaker, I understand the anger at the degree of crime that was recorded in Mumbwa prior to the riot; suspected ritual killings, so foul and gruesome a crime which occurred. Despite the fact that the crime brought about high emotions in the community, there was no justification for the riotous behaviour displayed. Our people everywhere and in Mumbwa, in particular, should have confidence in the institutions established to deal with crime. Their Government has unwavering determination to fight crime, and will do so passionately. So, no one should doubt this Government’s determination to be tough and effective on crime. I have a very strong sense of optimism that the responsible majority of our people in this country believe in our determination to fight crime and will give the Government the chance to fight it.

Madam Speaker, as an immediate measure to prevent further loss of life and property in Mumbwa District, we have beefed up the presence of law enforcement officers and improved intelligence-gathering and collaboration with other security wings. Additionally, active investigations are underway to bring to book the perpetrators of the ritual killings and the other riotous individuals to answer for their actions. Going forward, we shall continue sensitising communities on the importance of upholding law and order.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Chitotela: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

I commiserate with the people of Mumbwa who have lost their loved ones, including the business community. This is very sad, more so that the violence seems to target members of the business community, who are being perceived to not have come from that region. That is very bad. I encourage the hon. Minister and his officers to do more so that the criminals are brought to book, including those who are perpetuating the evil acts in Mumbwa.

Madam Speaker, what are we doing to enhance police collaboration with the community? The hon. Minister will remember that, previously, there used to be a programme called, “The Police and You” in order to enforce more collaboration between the community and the police. The role of the police is to protect property and preserve life, and where there is a mob, the collaboration between the police and the community is able to prevent some of these vices from happening.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe for the question raised. However, I would like to clarify one issue. It is not businessmen who are not hailing from Mumbwa who are being targeted, but the business community generally. People are not isolating certain communities.

Madam Speaker, I hear the hon. Member of Parliament and I agree with him. We have taken note. As a result of a similar matter he has raised, we have already started programmes on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) called, “Police and You.” We are also establishing community policing. We hope that, together with the communities, we can eradicate crime in our various communities.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for according us a very good opportunity to ask a question on this very sad moment.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Mwene: Madam Speaker, during various by-elections in Kaoma, vehicles belonging to one of the deceased by the name of Ernest, commonly known as Yakaipa, were seen being used by the Patriotic Front (PF) when campaigning.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mangango, please, please, please. No, let us not go that route.

Mr Kapyanga: What type of hatred is that?

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, this is an emotive issue. People have died. Families are mourning. Businessmen also are mourning. Let us not bring politics into something like this. Let us ask questions which are going to help us sort this issue out. Help the people in Mumbwa and Itezhi-Tezhi to heal. So, please, let us be responsible hon. Members of Parliament who promote unity and peace in the country.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha) Madam Speaker, my prayer is that what transpired in Mumbwa should not spread to other parts of the country. It should just end in Mumbwa.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bwacha, please, let us not incite. That question is tending to incite –

Mr Mushanga: It is not inciting, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Just ask a question relating to Mumbwa and Itezhi Tezhi.

Mr Mushanga: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am well guided.

Madam Speaker, I look at what happened in Itezhi Tezhi to be a pure way of looting because the looters targeted a maize-shed. I just want to learn whether any of the looters were arrested and any bags of maize recovered.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the incident in Itezhi-Tezhi is not isolated. There is a connection to what transpired in Mumbwa. The owners of the maize that was looted in Itezhi-Tezhi belong to members of the business community of Mumbwa. So, we cannot isolate these two incidents. Therefore, we are appealing to members of the public in all the areas were the businessmen of Mumbwa have been operating to remain calm and not take the law into their own hands or else, we will be targeting very innocent people. It is very unfortunate. There is more to what happened in Mumbwa. People who have nothing to do with the so-called ‘ritual killing’ have been targeted. That is why I am appealing to all of us in this House to be careful with the statements we make. We have arrested a number of people in Itezhi-Tezhi and have recovered some of the maize that was looted there.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, what happened in Mumbwa is quite sad. We have seen a rise in these gruesome murders. Is the Government considering reinstating the death penalty if these cases of murder continue in order to deter people from committing such crimes?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the answer is: No. Research has established that having capital punishment in place does not deter members of the public from committing capital crimes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, indeed, this is a sombre statement the hon. Minister has given to the House. The hon. Minister said that on 8^th September, Joseph Miyato was killed, and then another person was killed on 13^thSeptember, 2023. He also said that the first suspect was apprehended by the community. The police have their own intelligence, which is well trained. Why are they being reactive and not proactive in this matter?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, what transpired in Mumbwa, by virtue of the public apprehending the suspect, shows that there is collaboration between members of the public and the Zambia Police Service. I would not want to go into detail pertaining to how that particular suspect was apprehended. However, we have a lot more information that we will be able to give out when the matter goes to court.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I also thank the hon. Minister for his statement. I would also just like to convey my commiserations to the families of those who have lost lives in this heinous crime.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I was with the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi when he received phone calls. I am aware that in Itezhi-Tezhi, 200 bags of maize have been recovered and twenty-seven people are in police custody. My question to the hon. Minister is: How far is the procurement of motor vehicles for police officers under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF)? The money is being deducted from the source and is not reaching the constituencies. As the hon. Minister may be aware, districts like Itezhi-Tezhi do not have police vehicles. Even the police had to be assisted by officers from neighbouring districts like Namwala.

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for Nalolo for that question, which will enable me to inform the House on how far we have gone pertaining to the procurement of police vehicles.

I would like to inform this august House that the motor vehicles for the Zambia Police Service are now available in the country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: What we are waiting for is clearance from the Attorney-Generals’ office. By the close of the day yesterday, I was assured that the contract had been cleared. Immediately after the contract is submitted, we will start distributing the vehicles. Otherwise, the vehicles are now available in the country. We will make them available. The lack of vehicles is one of the issues which are making the police fail to police the constituencies.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the people of Luena send their condolences to the people of Mumbwa and Itezhi-Tezhi.

Madam Speaker, whenever such an ugly scenario is about to unfold, it is preceded by a lot of rumours in the respective communities. My question, therefore, is: Learning lessons from this and other similar incidents, is the police going to entrench its intelligence gathering in the community using community members so that some of such can be nipped in the bud before the situation gets out of hand?

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Madam Speaker. I also thank my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena.

I wish to confirm that community policing is now one of the cornerstones of combating crime in various communities. We have established a wing that will specifically deal with members of communities in enhancing awareness and reporting matters of crime in the communities. We are also re-organising the police service reserve wing in order for members of the community, who are willing to serve, to be brought on board. That is one of the issues we are undertaking.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, it is really sad to learn that we are experiencing such incidents in our country. My prayers go out to those who have lost their relatives in these happenings in Mumbwa and Itezhi-Tezhi.

Madam Speaker, there was an issue that was brought to the Floor by Hon. J. Chibuye regarding these kinds of ritual killings where coffins lead pall bearers to the suspected wizards or witches behind the deaths. I just want to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security whether he can think of bringing a Bill to change certain laws regarding such things. Even if there are current laws, I feel something must be done. I remember that even in Chambishi, some businessmen were killed, sometime back. So, I think it is important that, maybe, if it will be possible, his ministry comes up with a deliberate Bill that will help protect people who are suspected to be wizards or witches.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the laws of this country are adequate to deal with such situations. Unfortunately, it is the inherent beliefs of our people in witchcraft and these ritual killings. The beliefs that we have are the ones that encourage members of the public to take certain measures. In certain jurisdictions and areas, anyone who is assumed to have accumulated wealth is assumed to be a witch or a wizard. Anyone who is above seventy years old with white hair is a witch. These are just beliefs that are inimical to our interests.

Madam Speaker, I would like to appeal to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge, who is also a pastor, to inculcate a sense of responsibility in members of the public. These beliefs in witchcraft are the ones that are causing such things. Even these ritual murders are as a result of beliefs in witchcraft and gaining wealth through witchcraft. That is the cause. So, if we have to curb these vices, we have to change the way we believe in such vices.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will give an opportunity to the hon. Member from Itezhi-Tezhi.

The hon. Member was not in the House.

Hon. UPND Member: Waunka!

Madam Speaker: Okay, maybe, he has to attend to some urgent matter.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, police officers are trained to determine and handle various situations and to read situations. Could it have been a lapse on the part of the officers in Mumbwa that when they realised that the mob was becoming incensed, they did not call for reinforcement, but instead did so when the damage had been done? Was there something that was missed on the part of the officers in Mumbwa for them not to react before the situation got out of hand?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to blame the officers in Mumbwa. As hon. Members may have heard from the statement, when members of the public heard that one of the suspects was in police custody, they mobilised themselves, moved on to the police station and demanded that the suspect be released to them so that they could mete out instant justice. However, because the policemen were professional, they could not release the suspect. Had they done that, it would have been negligence on their part. The policemen and women had to make a decision; a decision which exposed them to danger. Immediately they refused, people started stoning the District Commissioner’s (DC’s) office, the National Registration Office, the Immigration Office and, eventually, the Veterinary Office were burnt down. It was an instant justice mob. I do not want to blame the police for the action they took.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I would have loved if the hon. Minister, in his statement, had given us the values of the properties that were lost. The issue of instant mob justice is actually worrying. We saw it also happen during the gassing period where people lost their lives. Again, but now in Mumbwa, we are seeing it. What message does the hon. Minister have for the communities out there that strongly believe that instant mob justice is the best way of sorting out issues?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata for that question.

Madam Speaker, the message to my brothers and sisters is that they should not take the law into their own hands. In a number of instances when there is instant justice, innocent lives are lost. By the time you realise that you have targeted an innocent person, it is too late. Let the due process of the law take its course.

Madam Speaker, even as I speak now, there is no evidence to show that those who have been killed were the ones who were behind the ritual murders. We do not have evidence, as yet. So, it is unfair to allow instant justice to be the route we take. Let the law enforcement agencies take the process to its conclusion. If members of the public are not satisfied, let them engage other security wings so that proper measures are taken. Other than that, I would like to state that this tendency of taking the law into our own hands is not in our interest.

Madam Speaker, I want to state that as of last year, we lost more than 200 members of the public, through these retrogressive beliefs in witchcraft. They were identified as witches and were targeted and killed without any evidence whatsoever. Can the hon. Member imagine that was his mother or father who had just been identified because of what he/she was or the age he/she had reached?

Madam Speaker, it is our responsibility, all of us, to stand up and condemn these heinous acts. I have no doubt in my mind, especially that the majority of us are from rural areas and know that these practices are common in our areas, can we sensitise our people to desist from doing such things.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

We can make progress.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

BOREHOLES SUNK COUNTRYWIDE IN 2022

24. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

(a) how many boreholes were sunk, countrywide, in 2022;

(b) how many districts benefited from the project;

(c) what criteria were used to allocate the boreholes to each district;

(d) when the Government will sink boreholes in districts that were not considered in 2022;

(e) whether the Government has any plans to set up water supply schemes in 2023; and

(f) if so, which districts will benefit from the project.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation and its co-operating partners, in 2022, sunk 2,182 boreholes and equipped them with hand pumps, countrywide.

Madam Speaker, ninety-five out of 116 districts benefited from the 2,182 boreholes.

Madam Speaker, the criteria used were in line with the principles of the National Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Programme 2019-2030, which determines the existing water access for each district as well as the principle of equity.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, under the 2023 Annual Work Plan, budgeted and planned to finance 500 boreholes to be equipped with hand pumps in all the ten provinces of Zambia. Therefore, those districts which were eligible and did not benefited from the 2022 Annual Work Plan will be catered for in this year’s allocation.

Madam Speaker, yes, the Government, through the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, has plans to set up water supply schemes in 2023.

Madam Speaker, under the 2023 Annual Work Plan, 113 out of 116 districts will benefit from the piped water schemes projects, countrywide.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, listening very attentively to the responses given by the hon. Minister, I decided to raise this question because I realised that Kalabo District did not benefit in 2022, looking at the schedule which was provided.

For 2023, the current year, in case negatives happen twice, then it becomes a misfortune. If a misfortune befalls that, again, in 2023, some of the districts which did not benefit in 2022 do not benefit, what is the Government going to do?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank Hon. Miyutu for that follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, yes, certain districts did not benefit from the 2022 allocation because we were trying to ensure that other districts that were terribly affected by water shortages and did not benefit from other on-going projects were also assisted. So, basically, we were trying to equalise and ensure that those that had not benefited in the past were catered for.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that in a number of districts in the Western Province, we have been assisted and are running a number of projects which are being financed by the African Development Bank (AfDB). Most of these projects will soon be commissioned, and because of that, when it came to allocating of boreholes, we thought that we could give priority to a number of districts that did not benefit from such interventions.

However, in 2023, Madam Speaker, we have allocated more boreholes to various districts. If Kalobo Central was not allocated in 2023, I think, the hon. Member of Parliament is at liberty to have some engagement with us so that we can check. However, what I have also noticed is that there have been some considerable delays in the execution of the projects by the contractors, both under the 2022 and 2023 allocations and we regret that. I want to take advantage of this question to say that my office is taking measures to check what has caused this delay. I will be able to make some pronouncements once I have enough information regarding that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, additionally, an observed situation that occurs in the awarding of these contracts – I do not know what criteria they use, those who award these contracts. You find that one contractor is given a number of boreholes to drill which cover many different districts. That also affects the effective implementation of the drilling of boreholes. Is he promising that in the near future, such errors or mistakes will not arise?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my brother, again, for that follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, it is really kind of regrettable that there may be one contractor given so many slots, which, obviously, poses as a challenge in the execution of the projects. However, I think that the hon. Member of Parliament will realise that, the hon. Minister has very little to do as regards what decisions are made at that stage in procurement procedures. However, I want to take advantage of this question to caution those who are doing this knowingly, particularly the technocrats, to overburden the contractors.

Obviously, it raises suspicions why, out of so many contracts, give eight or ten contracts would be given to one person. Madam Speaker, these are intensive works in which one contractor, given eight or ten slots at a go, obviously, is put under too much pressure to execute while the hon. Members and their people in the various constituencies wait for these facilities to be provided.

Madam Speaker, as I said, I am carrying out some checks to ascertain what really happened and why the overload of allocations to particular contractors will be able to engage hon. Members of Parliament once I have full information regarding that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we need to catch up on our work. I have seen that many hon. Members want to ask questions. I urge you to engage the hon. Minister so that we compensate for time lost because we are still very far from the core business of the House. So, we make progress.

CASSAVA BROWN STREAK OUTBREAK

25. Mr Chisanga (Lukashya) asked the Minister of Agriculture:

whether the Government is aware of the outbreak of cassava brown streak, which occurred in March 2023 in the following wards in Lukashya Parliamentary Constituency:
Kapanda;
Lualuo;
Kapongolo;
Musowa; and
Chibunda.
if so, what measures are being taken to assist the affected farmers; and
what measures are being taken to prevent the outbreak of similar diseases in the future?

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu) (on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the outbreak of cassava brown streak disease in the following wards of Lukashya Parliamentary Constituency:

Kapanda ;

Lualo;

Kapongolo;

Musowa; and

Chibunda.

Madam Speaker, the following measures are being taken to assist the affected farmers:

they are being provided with clean planting material sourced from a farm called Sunbirds Farms in Kawambwa, which has clean planting materials;

the Government and regional bodies, such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC), are establishing gene banks for clean planting materials; and

sensitising them on the outbreak and effects of cassava brown streak disease.

Madam Speaker, the following measures are being taken to prevent the outbreak of similar diseases in the future:

mapping and containing the disease against further outbreak by regulating the movement of cassava cuttings to and from affected areas;

introducing disease-tolerant cassava varieties in collaboration with other stakeholders such as the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU);

conducting research on disease-tolerant varieties, through the Zambia Agriculture Research Institute (ZARI), and surveillance of any possible outbreak of cassava brown streak disease; and

destruction of affected planting materials from all fields.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga: Madam Speaker, I just want to find out what the Government is doing to assist the farmers whose crops were destroyed because they are now threatened with hunger.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I just want to assure my hon. Colleague that the DMMU, under the Office of the Vice-President, is taking appropriate measures to ensure that the people in Lukashya are not affected by hunger.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

DUMP SITES AT KAGEM MINE IN LUFWANYAMA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

26. Mr Siachisumo (Lufwanyama) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

whether the Government has any plans to give the dump sites at Kagem Emerald Mine in Lufwanyama Parliamentary Constituency to the local youths; and

if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Speaker, yes, the Government has plans to give the dump sites to the local youths in various constituencies, where they are available, including in Lufwanyama Constituency. However, these dump sites are licensed to private companies and engagements are currently ongoing on the possibility of them apportioning part of them to the Government.

As indicated above, the implementation of the plans is subject to the outcome of the on-going engagements with the licence holders of the dump sites.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Siachisumo: Madam Speaker, the dumpsite has always been a topical issue, and it has taken long to give it to the local youths, and the youths on the Copperbelt in general. So, when are we going to have it? When we look at the sister company, Grizzly Mining Limited, where the Government does not have shares like in Kagem Emerald Mine, it has empowered the youths with access to its dumpsites. So, why has it taken so long to award the youths access to the dumpsites at Kagem Emerald Mine in Lufwanyama?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, as I said, we are negotiating. The approach is holistic. It is not only in Lufwanyama. There are also dumpsites in Kitwe, Mufulira and other areas, and these negotiations are taking place. What we are avoiding is to have a cadre of youths that will just get the dumpsites and mine them, then get the money and go away. When they are broke, they still come back and say they need more dumpsites. We want it to be in such a way that our youths can graduate into proper miners afterwards because dumpsites are wasting assets. They waste away. So, we want the youths to graduate and become proper miners or even raise capital and do other businesses apart from mining. That is why we want to be very methodical and careful as we engage in these negotiations.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lufwanyama, do you have any other question? If you do not have, your neighbour, the hon. Member for Kankoyo, may ask.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Minister has clarified that the dumpsites, including the one in Kankoyo, are still under negotiations. So, we will wait for the time the negotiations will be concluded.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as I indicated, we need to catch up. So, we will move on.

CHALLENGES IN ACCESSING LASF PENSION BENEFITS

27. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

whether the Government is aware that members of the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) have been experiencing challenges in accessing their pension benefits and annuities;

if so, what measures are being taken to address the challenges; and

what measures the Government is implementing to ensure that LASF is sustainable in its current and future operations.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the challenges faced by members of the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) in accessing their pension benefits.

Madam Speaker, the Government is addressing the challenges by helping the fund with liquidity or additional funding.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

In the corner there, hon. Members, please. The hon. Member for Chilubi and the hon. Member for Kantanshi, please, if you want to chat, you can step out and do that.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mposha: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I will repeat. The Government is addressing the challenges by helping the fund with liquidity.

Madam Speaker, the Government is reviewing the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund Act and the fund’s long-term position in regard to pension fund administration.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I thank the Acting hon. Minister for that response.

Madam Speaker, LASF covers those working for ZESCO Limited, the National Housing Authority (NHA) and local authorities. These workers are going through many challenges. So, the hon. Minister said the Government has been helping it with funding. When did the Government last fund LASF? Up to this time, retirees are languishing.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, according to the information provided to me, the Government has been releasing some funds annually to assist LASF. I have, here, information to the effect that from 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 up to this year, there have been funds disbursed to LASF. I have the amounts here. I can engage the hon. Member of Parliament at a later stage.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, on the sustainability of LASF, I know that after the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) was created, all new employees thereafter automatically became members of NAPSA. Meanwhile, the Government still maintained LASF as a pension scheme. So, when is the Government going to bring a Bill to amend the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund Act so that LASF can receive new members? I believe that that is the only way we are going to sustain that pension scheme unlike, at the moment, where it does not receive new members and depends on Government funding. So, when does the hon. Minister think the Government is going to bring a Bill to amend the Act?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I just want to thank my brother for that follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, very soon, the Bill will be presented to Parliament. Currently, we are at the stage where we are trying to get some input from Members of the Executive. So, the Cabinet Memorandum, as I speak, is in circulation to get some input from other Members of the Executive. So, the process is ongoing and I want to assure the hon. Member that, very soon, the Bill will be on the Floor of the House.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, although my question has been overtaken by events. However, let me just emphasise, through a comment, and thank the Government. The Government should speed up the process because the policies or the principles of pension are that two people existing should finance one person who has exited. Right now, the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) is affected by the National Pension Scheme Act of 2000. So, there is no money going to LASF. So, I am happy that the hon. Minister has elaborated very well. I pray that this process is expedited so that our council workers can get their benefits like those from any other institutions.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. That was a comment.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the New Dawn Government, why this Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF), cannot just be dissolved, like the National Provident Fund (NPF) was, and be aligned with the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA)? Many people have even died without getting their benefits. We keep on talking and talking, Government in Government out, but this LASF problem is still unresolved. Why can the Government not just merge LASF with NAPSA like it did with the NPF? I think that would help our people.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chienge for this question.

Madam speaker, as I indicated above, we are reviewing the Act and, very soon, the Bill will be here. So, we are not just talking. However, I agree with her that in the past, there was talking and talking. We have come in, and the process has started. Let us see the form it is going to take. Hon. Members of Parliament will have an opportunity to debate the Bill and advise what form they want it to take.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

QUALITY CONTROL AND QUALITY ASSURANCE ON CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND PROJECTS

28. Mr Jonathan Daka (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

whether the Government is aware that Constituency Development Fund construction projects, countrywide, are being undertaken without the application of quality control and quality assurance mechanisms; and

if so, what measures are being taken to employ quality control and quality assurance mechanisms, so as to prevent the construction of substandard structures and avoid wasteful expenditure of public resources.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo)): Mr Speaker, the Government is not aware that Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects are being undertaken without the application of quality control mechanisms. The procurement of the CDF projects is done following approved procurement principles of cost, quality and time delivery. However, just as with some projects outside the CDF, we have had, in the past, instances where, a contractor does a poor quality job despite the laid down procedures and principles.

Mr Speaker, the Government has guided local authorities to adhere to the procurement guidelines and principles laid down by the Zambia Public Procurement Authority Act to ensure quality control in the implementation of the CDF and other projects that are capital in nature.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, on 4^th November, 2021, the hon. Minister of Education reported 441 schools to have had blown off roofs, and that the Government was looking for K70 million to fix them. The majority of those schools were Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects. Now, my concern is that in the current form, where the CDF has been enhanced, the council does not have a project manager position. So, the issue of quality is urgent. What is the ministry going to do now that it is aware that there are some quality issues? What is it going to do to address these issues?

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, as indicated in our response, the issues of quality delivery of projects, whether for the CDF or other Government projects, are important. I want to say that we will continue ensuring that councils adhere to the measures we have pronounced, as the Government, that they must ensure, first of all, that they procure quality contractors who will apply themselves effectively in ensuring that they deliver quality works or projects.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members in constituencies where it is felt that there are projects that are substandard or that contractors are providing substandard works are at liberty to engage the local authorities. Where they are not getting co-operation, they can engage my ministry.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is good that the hon. Minister has acknowledged that the Government is aware of the bad quality of works on projects being done under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The compromise in quality happens at different stages; from design, costing, selection of the contractors, supervision while the works are happening and final acceptance or handover by the contractor. All these stages require quality human resource and tools in local authorities. What is clear now, is that in most councils, especially those with multiple constituencies, there is a shortage of human resource and the tools and equipment for them to ensure that they come up with proper designs, costings, monitoring and accepting good quality projects. So, is there anything that the Government is considering to beef up human resource in the councils to give them the tools and equipment to ensure that they have the capacity to come up with proper designs, monitoring and reports? It is true that we are losing a lot of money under the CDF as a result of these bad quality works that are being done on the projects.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, just to set the record straight, – before that, I want to thank my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufulira, for that supplementary question – I did not say that the Government is aware. I said that it is not aware that the implementation of the CDF projects is in a substandard way. However, arising from this question, which has brought this to the fore, I urged hon. Members to continue, through the councils, to ensure that quality works are being delivered.

Secondly, on the issue of capacity, Mr Speaker, we have engineers, in most of our councils, who are responsible for the implementation of these projects and their inspections. However, for capacity, as we implement the Decentralisation Policy, we, as the Government, are committed to ensuring that we continue improving the capacity of our councils so that as they receive a lot of money and carry out projects in the various districts, it is also improved to ensure that the works being delivered and issues of monitoring and evaluation are scaled-up. So, as the Government, we are committed, from time to time, to ensuring that we improve capacity in local authorities and other Government institutions so that the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy is scaled-up and done in a manner that will our citizens receive quality projects.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: My advice also to hon. Members is that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has a component for administration. There is a component of money, about 5 per cent, which, as Members of Parliament, we have to use to ensure that councils procure track-star for the testing of concrete and the dumpy levels. So, we have these monies that we can utilise, as hon. Members of Parliament, in the meetings, so that councils are also equipped fully for them to be able to carry out tests and ensure that the required concrete standard is adhered to. We also have a vehicle, and fuel should be sufficient enough. So, it is just to put mechanisms in place to ensure that monitoring is adhered to.

The last Member to ask a question is the hon. Member for Vubwi, for us to make progress.

Interruptions

Mr A. I. A. Banda (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the statement he has given. Taking advantage of this question, I want to find out the position of the Government on some of these constituencies or districts which have not yet received the vehicles for monitoring. How far is the matter?

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, the question is now stretching to issues of vehicles. However, I want to thank the hon. Member of Parliament, my brother, from a very important constituency, Vubwi. I extend my greetings to the people of Vubwi.

Laughter

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, the constituencies that have not yet received their vehicles will be able to receive, pretty soon, and most of the vehicles are in now. I think what is happening is just a small administrative issue, but most of the vehicles are almost in and ready for distribution.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. Daka: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chadiza.

Mr Speaker, as I stand here, I am a very sad person.

Madam Speaker, what I was trying to get from this question from the hon. Minister –

Hon. Members: It is “Mr Speaker!”

Laughter

Mr J. Daka: Mr Speaker, I am sorry for that.

What I was trying to get from this question was supposed to come from the actual day to day supervision of works in various sites that we have out there on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) programmes. We know very well that the CDF projects are littered throughout the country in various areas in several constituencies. If we go to these sites, we find that simple construction materials, such as blocks, start to crumble in our hands. If we look at issues to do with window frames, and even the windows themselves, most of them are defective. We get to doors or door frames, we have a situation, for example, in my constituency, where, when seated inside one of the health posts and I am able to see through the door what is happening outside. The situation on the ground is quite pathetic.

Mr Speaker, these affect the day-to-day supervision of the works. Why can we not consider employing clerks of works on each project? It is very simple to do that. My proposition is that we put a slot for the provision for a clerk of works in the contract document that we sign with contractors.

Who will act as the Government’s eyes on a day-to-day basis on the several sites that we have throughout our constituencies.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, I have taken note of the proposal by the questioner. However, I think that what is obtaining in his constituency may not be what is happening in Munali Constituency. So, since that is the case, those who feel that they have situations where there is really poor quality of delivery by some contractors, they should feel free to put it in writing to the councils and copy the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development so that it can deal with the cases as they arise because I do not think that this is a wide-spread situation. The hon. Member is talking to a Minister who also has a constituency.

Mr Speaker, I also would like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to take advantage of the Parliamentary reforms where, now, we have constituency offices in our constituencies and the Government has given us vehicles for monitoring and evaluation. We must also let our officers be on the ground to ensure that we derive quality works from projects on which the Government is spending, including the CDF. So, let us also scale-up the inspections so that we can make informed decisions or help the ministry to take corrective measures.

Mr Speaker, I do not think that the solution is to employ clerks of works, but to ensure that we push our technocrats, the engineers, at council level to do their work. I think that is the solution. However, where hon. Members feel that council officials are not doing the works as expected, they may engage us so that we can quickly put in place corrective measures.

YOUTH CLUBS FORMED IN NALIKWANDA CONSTITUENCY FROM 2016 TO 2021

29. Mr Simunji (Nalikwanda) asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts:

how many youth clubs were formed in Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency from 2016 to 2021, year by year;

whether the clubs above were empowered by the Government;

if so, what form of empowerment was provided;

if the empowerment was in monetary form, how much money was allocated to each club; and

whether the clubs are monitored to verify whether they are operational.

The Minister of Fishers and Livestock (Mr Chikote) (on behalf of the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu)): Mr Speaker, the area hon. Member of Parliament may wish to note that from 2016 to 2021, the ministry has no record regarding the formation of youth clubs, specifically for Nalikwanda Constituency. The available information indicates that clubs were centrally registered under Mongu District by the Registrar of Societies and the National Youth Development Council (NYDC).

Mr Speaker, during the period under review, a total of seventy-three clubs were registered, out of which, sixty-three were registered under the Registrar of Societies and ten under the NYDC, as follows:

Year No. of Clubs Registered

2016 09

2017 08

018 22

2019 06

2020 03

2021 05

Mr Speaker, the co-operatives registered under the NYDC were ten.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that seven clubs registered by the NYDC were empowered by the ministry during the period under review.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that the ministry empowered the clubs in the form of money equivalent to the proposed equipment requested in the application form.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to note that the money allocated to each club was as follows:

Name of the Group Amount Funded (K)

Nalikwanda Youth

Livestock Breeding Club K100,000

Nalikwanda Agricultural

Marketing Club K250, 000

Namengo Youth Club K60,000

Looma Youth Club K60, 000

Siyowe Youth Club K60, 000

Mbekise Youth Club K60, 000

Lukalanya Youth Club K60, 000

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may also wish to note that the clubs were monitored and the status is as follows:

Name of the Group Operational Status

Nalikwanda Youth Livestock Breeding Club Operational

Nalikwanda Agricultural

Marketing Club Not operational

Namengo Youth Club Operational

Looma Youth Club Not operational

Siyowe Youth Club Provincial team has failed to get in touch

with this club. So, no information, as yet,

as to how it is

Mbekise Youth Club Operational

Lukalanya Youth Club Operational

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simunji: Mr Speaker, most of these clubs were formed just before the elections in 2021. Could the hon. Minister recommend a special audit to make sure that there was no political abuse on this part?

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, indeed, these are public resources and, wherever public resources are used, there is a mechanism to make sure that audits are carried out to verify how the public resources, which are from the Government, are used. So, indeed, as we continue to empower our youths, we are not forgetting what was given to them and how it is being used. Nalikwanda being one of the constituencies that benefited from these funds, we will make sure that we understand how the public resources have been used by our youths in that constituency.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the way forward is for the clubs which are not operational.

Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member heard, this money was allocated during or towards elections. So, there are a lot of things that happen when elections are on, but that is the reason we have said an audit has to be carried out to understand why those clubs are not operational since they have these public resources.

Mr Speaker, that is the way things were happening in the past regime, but I can assure the hon. Member that under the New Dawn Administration, once we are given public resources, we will have to use them accordingly.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simunji: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that these clubs were being monitored. However, he said that there is one club which the provincial office had failed to get in touch with. I find that this statement contradicts itself because one cannot give money to someone as a loan or an empowerment benefit without knowing where that person or club is found. May I know from the hon. Minister whether the ministry gave these funds to actual clubs which were found in Nalikwanda?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, hon. Member, you will need to engage the hon. Minister at an appropriate time.

Let us progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN LUNDAZI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

30. Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi) asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

whether the Government has any plans to construct communication towers in the following areas in Lundazi Parliamentary Constituency:

Dunduzu;

Kabindula;

(iii) Nyangwe;

(iv) Mukawile;

(v) Ng’onga; and

(vi) Kachenche;

(b) if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(c) if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima) (on behalf of the Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati)): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to construct communication towers in all parts of the country without network coverage. To ascertain the mobile network coverage gap, the Government undertook a Gap Analysis, which revealed that five sites needed coverage in Lundazi Parliamentary Constituency, namely Kanyunya, Lunevwa, Chilola and Ndonda. These areas cover Dunduzu, Kabindula, Nyangwe, Mukawile, Ng’onga, and Kachenche. However, should any of the above areas fall outside the findings of the Gap Analysis, the Government will undertake a focused assessment of the said areas to either establish the possibility of coverage optimisation or construct new towers.

Mr Speaker, the plan will be implemented in 2024 when funds are available.

Mr Speaker, due to the response above, part (c) of the question falls off.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that towers will be constructed when funds are available. I am very aware that, very soon, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will present the Budget to this House. Would the hon. Minister confirm, if at all, that he will have any courtesy to include those towers in this year's Budget so that the hon. Member for Lundazi and I can be among those to help in approving that budget line so that the people of Lundazi can have towers constructed this year?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I am not quite sure because the Budget is going to be read very soon. So, it means that it has already been prepared. So, I cannot go into speaking for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Maybe, by implication, the plans will be implemented in 2024. I do not know.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Mr Speaker, it is quite sad that out of the ten wards in Lundazi, one can only communicate effectively in two wards. I do not want to apportion blame, but the people of Lundazi have this question for the hon. Minister: What did those people from the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (Zamtel) go to do in Lundazi if the plans will not be implemented any time soon? There was an assumption that the Government was going to put up the communication towers this year. What did those people from Zamtel go to do? Did they just go there for show? What was it that they went to do?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, the construction of communication towers, I think, goes with the availability of money. If it was not budgeted for this year, and we all know that we passed the Budget, it cannot be done. Probably, there was no budget line, but they went to assess. This is why I am saying that it may be by implication when we say that the plans will be implemented in 2024 when funds are available. I am saying, maybe, by implication, it means that the communication towers will be constructed next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the people of Chilubi are very concerned, arising from the answers that have been given by the Acting hon. Minister concerning Lundazi, especially on communication towers. Earlier this year, the Ministry of Technology and Science asked different hon. Members of Parliament, and a sense of urgency was attached to that request, to submit areas in which communication towers were to be constructed. The hon. Minister even emphasised that the construction of these communication towers was going to be undertaken this year. Now, I am at pains in understanding the postponement to next year. If I decipher well, some of the areas that Lundazi lined up for the construction of communication towers, I think, are amongst those that are affected, and were requested for by the ministry. The ministry attached a serious sense of urgency to the request and there was even a deadline. I feel that we were mocked in the manner –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Fube: I do not know what the hon. Minister can say about that.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, yes, all of us were asked to submit. So, the only thing that I can state, as of now, is that when the ministry collects information, it wants to plan the budget. I do not think – I cannot recall, anyway, that the hon. Minister said that, “Hon. Members make submissions of the lists of potential areas for the construction of communication towers so that tomorrow, we put them up.” I cannot recall that.

Mr Speaker, I think that when we collect data, we want to plan for another year. Even logic would entail that. So, we passed the other Budget in December and then, in June, without a budget line, the hon. Member wants us to say that, “Hon. Members, bring the lists now so that tomorrow, we build a communication tower.” I do not think so. I do not think that way. Logic would just entail that those are things that the ministry wanted to factor in for 2024. This is why I said that by implication, it will be done in 2024. All of us submitted lists of areas in which the construction of communication towers is to be undertaken. I also submitted. There are two places where there is no coverage. So, I put them on the list. However, what I recall is that it was not in January. It was just mid-year. The sense of urgency was to prepare hon. Members. So, we cannot just say that because there was a deadline on the submission of possible areas, – The deadline was required in order for us to factor in the areas submitted. I am just using logic here now.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, it may seem very simple to give such vague answers when it is not one’s constituency which is actually affected.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Ms Nyirenda: The people of Lundazi are demanding from the Government that the communication towers be built. The people in the Government will need the towers in 2026 to communicate with the people there. They will need them. They may not need them today, but in 2026, they will be panicking all over because they will want to know the results they would have gotten in Dundusi.

My question to the hon. Minister is: Is the Government considering putting this issue of communication towers in Lundazi in the 2024 Budget?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The Acting hon. Minister of Technology and Science may respond, but let us avoid being emotional.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I want the hon. Member for Lundazi to listen very attentively. When she says, “They will need them.” It is not me or the ministry. We will all need them. Even now, if I had my way, I was just going to tell an engineer to go and construct the communication towers today. So, we will all need them. This is why, in my preamble, I said that the Government has plans to construct communication towers in all parts of this country, including Chilubi. So, we all, collectively, need them. I also have relatives there, and I have you, my former student, to communicate with.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: So, we will do that for every part of this country. In any case, it is so helpful for anyone of us to communicate. Communication is vast. In remote areas, I have schools. I am the Minister of Education. I have schools. I have to find out what is happening in every school. So, this is why I said that “by implication,” one would reasonably feel that we would do all these things in the next Budget.

I hope that satisfies the hon. Member. She can come and ask me next year, then.

I thank you, Sir.

______

MOTION

MOTION OF THANKS

(Debated resumed)

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, thank you so much.

I had moved on to the agricultural sector, and in speaking to it, what is critical is that instead of us doing business as usual, it is important that, number one, we seriously consider mechanisation, as a country, and number two, we must seriously consider irrigation. There is every need for us to move our farmers from the hoe to the tractor. Also on irrigation, let us also draw inspiration from countries where the President has been to, like Israel. With one river called River Jordan, Israel has become the global leader in drip irrigation.

Mr Speaker, the other one is the livestock and fisheries sector. The need for artificial insemination in these two sectors ought to take centre stage. It cannot be business as usual. We cannot say that we want to be net exporters when we do not want to improve the quality of our fish and livestock. Then, we would be joking.

Mr Speaker, it is also very important for us to understand that we are trapped in the the production of this mono staple food or crop called maize. Zambia is suffering from a maize-centric mentality. The reason every time ubunga, mealie meal, becomes political is that we have refused to diversify. If there is anything the Ministry of Agriculture needs to do, it is to bring transformation to this sector by diversifying the crop portfolio, as a matter of urgency. As we stand, it is as good as saying that the Ministry of Agriculture is the Ministry of Maize because we have refused to diversify.

Mr Speaker, we have sung about the farming blocks and what we are now saying is that when the President pronounces himself on farming blocks, the technocrats and the ministries responsible must be given clear targets. They must be given performance contracts such that when they fail to deliver, they must be fired.

Mr Speaker, we cannot have a mono-staple food crisis, as a country, when we have two-thirds of fresh water. Over 50 per cent of our land is arable, but only 15 per cent is under cultivation, yet we think we are going to increase production by continuing to conduct business as usual. It does not happen that way. Certain things ought to change.

Mr Speaker, there is a need for us to look at what was done in the past and, probably, reinvent what could be done. For example, we need to get the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) into export gear. Let us get back to the National Agricultural Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) and the Zambia Horticultural Products Limited (ZAMHOT) concepts and models with an improved corporate culture. Market scouting cannot be done by an individual farmer. If we look at the models which were used in the past, and improve on the corporate culture, Zambia could become that net exporter.

Mr Speaker, I will address myself to the environment; the need for us to prioritise reforestation and the planting of fruit trees. Land restoration is a potential job creator in this country; forest management with the full involvement of communities. In that regard, we expect that the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment will be given a greater allocation in 2024 because we know that is one way of empowering our people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Menyani Zulu, but he was not in the House.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the people of Bangweulu, the opportunity to reflect on the speech that was delivered by the President, last Friday.

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, I will simply start by saying that this is the most boring speech I have ever come across.

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: It is my considered view that it is the most boring speech I have ever come across since I became a Member of Parliament in 2015.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Speaker, on Page 4, the President talked about retaining prudent spending. Okay. He said prudent spending has come back to this country. I will ask questions. Can you call undertaking fifty-two foreign trips prudent spending?

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes!

Mr Kasandwe: Fifty-two foreign trips in two years, which translate into a trip every two weeks. In the past two years, he has been travelling every two weeks. Is that prudent spending?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kasandwe: Commuting from his house everyday for the past two years and spending money, is that prudent spending?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kasandwe: That is careless spending and a misuse of the resources of this country.

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, can I be protected from armchair debaters.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

You are protected, but let us ensure that our debate sticks to the speech.

Mr Kasandwe: Yes, the debate –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think that, for certain things, we attract animosity on our own. From the outset, when you said this was a boring speech, I was even wondering that it may be ...

Mr Kasandwe: That is my opinion.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: ... that it did not include bars.

Mr Kasandwe: That is my opinion, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, spending the Government’s resources traversing the world every two weeks is not prudent spending. It is careless spending. Commuting from your house for two years, and spending taxpayers’ money is not prudent spending.

Mr Speaker, he even talked about financial prudence.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kasandwe: What is financial prudence? The Government is cancelling the procurement of farming inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Every two weeks, it cancels. Ten times in a week. Is that prudent financial management? This year alone, in two weeks, it has cancelled five times. What is the prudence in that?

Mr Mwene: Where is the evidence?

Mr Kasandwe: The evidence is in the public domain.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, let me now talk about debt. The President went to the extent of saying that those people who borrowed are abnormal. That is what he said. I want to ask a question. Is it normal or abnormal to borrow US$6 billion in two years?

Hon. PF Members: It is abnormal!

Mr Kasandwe: So, who is abnormal?

Laughter

Mr Kasandwe: So, if you said the Patriotic Front (PF) borrowed because it is abnormal, the United Party for National Development (UPND) has borrowed US$6 billion in two years. So, if borrowing is abnormal, it, therefore, follows that ...

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: ... whoever has borrowed is abnormal. So, we are all abnormal because we borrowed, and the UPND has also borrowed.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, one of the rules of this House is that, if one is making an assertion, one must provide the evidence. If he is saying that this Government, in two years, has borrowed US$65 billion, one and two, let him lay the evidence on the Table. Otherwise, we will say he is abnormal.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us ensure that we stick to our debate. We should not make pronouncements that we cannot substantiate. Just to guide you, let us ensure that we debate on issues that we are aware of and not assumptions so that we do not mislead the public and ourselves.

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, we approved the Borrowing Plan here. This House approved the Borrowing Plan. If those who borrowed in the past were abnormal, even those who are borrowing now are abnormal. That is the point I am making. Since we approved the Borrowing Plan, we are all abnormal for approving that plan.

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker

Mr Kasandwe: The next point, Mr Speaker, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Bafula shani?

Hon. Member: Iwe cilobwana konkala ansi.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to rise on a very serious point of order. My point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 65.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor indicated that this is the first time in his life at Parliament to listen to a very boring speech. I just want to know what has attracted him to debate a boring speech.

Laughter

Ms Nyirenda: Is that a point of order? Iyee.

Mr Twasa interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kasenengwa, let us mind how we react when others are talking so that they are not disturbed. However, let me give a word of caution. Let us avoid making certain statements. Let us just ensure that we stick to the contents of the speech rather than make certain assertions that may just provoke the situation.

That is my guidance, hon. Member.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I remember that some years back, Presidents’ Speeches were being torn apart to pieces in this House. I do not know what has changed. So, I will move from borrowing because it looks like it is thorn in some colleagues’ flesh. However, the bottom line is that the UPND has borrowed US$6 billion in two years.

I will move onto another point, Madam Speaker. I will speak about –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Chisanga interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Mr Chisanga, what are you saying?

Mr Chisanga: He called you “Madam Speaker.” So, I am telling him that you are “Mr Speaker.” I am correcting him.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us ensure that – I think I have guided you on that …

Mr Kasandwe: Yes, I have moved away from –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: … because you do not have any evidence to back your claims. Do you have evidence that the Government has borrowed US$6 billion?

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: That is in – ah ah! It has been here. It is a notorious fact ba Speaker naimwe.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, resume your seat.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, you have not been called upon to –

Mr Kampyongo: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came to this august House and that plan was approved. So, what is he talking about? Do not be misled, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, I cannot be misled.

Hon. PF Member: You are being misled.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I am guiding on firm ground that we should not debate issues that we cannot substantiate.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Yes. So, let us just stick to the President’s Speech. In the President’s Speech, there is no US$ 6 billion that the Government has borrowed.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I have it here. There is nothing of that sort. So, let us just stick to the speech that was brought to the House. Otherwise, whatever you will be saying here will mislead people on things that are neither here nor there. So, let us just stick to the speech.

Mr Kasandwe: Alright, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, we approved the Borrowing Plan in this House after the Government proposed it. Therefore, the Government has been borrowing, as far as I know, for consumption and not investment.

Mr Speaker, I will move on to the issue of desks. On Page 16, the President said that unlike in the past, desks are being procured in this country. I just want to inform the President, through the hon. Minister of Education, that since 2011, the Government did procure any single desk from abroad. Desks were made on Makishi Road by the Zambia Education Implementation Unit (ZEPIU) and Provincial Education Board Offices. So, there was no single desk bought from outside the country from 2012. I just wanted to help the President understand that he was misled. Okay.

Mr Speaker, the other point I want to refer to is that the President said that the Turkish and Mozambican airlines have resumed flights to Zambia because he is in the Government. That is far from it. The resumption of flights by these airlines into Zambia is not by accident, but by design, by the huge investment the PF Government put into the aviation industry; …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe: … by constructing new runways and airports. This is what has attracted these airlines to come back. The former Minister, Hon. Kafwaya, signed those agreements. Okay.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Kasandwe: So, development is a relay. For example, the President claimed that the Government had constructed the Kasama Airport Runway. It has completed the Kasama Airport Runway because development is passing on the baton. It is a relay. Eighty per cent of the work was already done. So, that is another problem I have with this speech.

Mr Speaker, another point I want to comment on is where the President said that the last time we saw graders was in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era. That is unbelievable. We know that, through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), hon. Members of Parliament were procuring graders even when the amount was K700,000.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kasandwe: I will demonstrate.

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: In the Southern Province, those who are now hon. Ministers know that they procured graders, which have not arrived to date.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe: They are even in this House. So, I am surprised that the President did not know. The President did not know that Kanyama Constituency had a grader and so did Kasama Constituency, Chienge Constituency and Lunte Constituency. Probably –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Kanyama!

Mr Kasandwe: I just wanted to demonstrate that 90 per cent of the speech was simply untrue. There is a lot of falsehood in this speech. This is typical of some people. It is rare that they tell the truth.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to start my debate by looking at the theme that was presented by our President. When the Commander-in-Chief comes to the National Assembly, it becomes Parliament. I think that is legal. When he comes, we all expect that the Commander-in-Chief will use the tone of the Republican President and not that of a political party.

Mr Speaker, the theme is, “Building on the Social-Economic Gains for Improved Livelihoods and a Better Zambia.” Based on that theme, the President highlighted some things, but I would like to indicate that I was at a crossroads because when I compared the speech which we got from the Hansard and this speech (waving a paper), they are at variance. This means that we do not know which one we can even adopt as the official report because when we pick the speech, that is the verbatim report, we will find that there were many issues that were not captured in this booklet, but were captured in the Hansard.

Mr Speaker, all the same, let me venture into looking at what the President pointed out. I would like also to resonate that the speech was poorly researched. I do not want to blame the President for this one. I think I want to blame the people who were involved in coming up the speech for the President. The speech was poorly researched because if you compared the national statistics with what the President brought here. I think, let them not expose him to that kind of vulnerability, really. It is not worth it.

Mr Speaker, when we talk about agriculture, the President talked about ‘meal meal’, maize and so on and so forth.

Hon. UPND Members: Meal meal!

Mr Fube: Well, it depends on where you come from. You cannot intimidate me. When we talk about maize, maize is simply a base material from which other by-products are churned out. I know that recently, there was an operation in Munali Constituency at the Zambia National Service (ZNS) which was charged with a fire fighting measure which was meant to provide meal meal at, I think, K175.

Hon. UPND Member: Meal, meal!

Mr Fube: When we look at the measure –

Mr Speaker, can I be protected?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are protected.

Mr Fube: I am not protected from those charlatans who are shouting there.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you are protected, but do not mispronounce words deliberately.

Laughter

Mr Fube: I come from Chilubi. So, I do not care. If it was a Chinese who had mispronounced a word, we would not care. So, I think, looking at time when we look at agriculture, as things stand, is a failed project.

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Fube: It is a failed project in that the thing they call comprehensive agriculture is not even explained. The other time, the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries even failed to explain certain things. When I look at the investment which the President referred to in the farming blocks, which is US$300 million, the hon. Minister of Agriculture confirmed that it is a failed project. So, when we look at the issue the President referred to, which is a 4,000 tractor-driven project, I do not know where it is happening because, in my constituency, it is not there. So, it is a failed project.

Mr Speaker, when we look at the mega watts that the President referred to, Let us learn to appreciate each other. That is why I started with the theme. That is the legacy of the Patriotic Front (PF), which invested, since Independence, in Hydro Power. I think let us learn to be humble enough to appreciate what others have done because the Government is a going concern.

Mr Speaker, on the same issue of power, I heard the hon. Minister, yesterday, say that there is no load shedding. We are experiencing six hours of load shedding every day on average. I do not know whether we are part of Zambia or not.

Mr Speaker, I want to address the issue of human and social development. It is shameful that we keep on being proud, as a nation, and boast about employing people. Before, teachers and health workers were employed using special drawing rights, which came into the country on 3^rd August, 2021, which is K1.3 billion. That should be credited to the PF, equally. When we look at that, we find that it is only health workers and teachers who are being employed. When we talk about human development, it should be a multi-discipline arrangement. In any case, this model we have taken to employ people using Government means is going to collapse the economy at one point or the other because what we are supposed to do is provide incentives to the private sector that should take up and lift the pressure to employ the citizens off the Government.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: You are charlatans. You do not know what you are talking about.

Laughter

Mr Fube: So, when we look at that, it is also a leakage, and the President talked about sealing leakages. It is a serious leakage because when the United National Independence Party (UPND) took over power, 53 per cent of the Annual Budget was already going to emoluments. Looking at the fact that civil servants were 340 plus the other 40,000 who were added on, the Government is not telling the truth to the nation. This is why even this fake inflation rate of a single digit cannot hold. The factors are not supporting it. It is on its own. When we look at the balance of payments support and many other factors, such as export versus import, things are in disarray. Let us not cheat ourselves.

Mr Speaker, when we look at what the President referred to as a ‘good governance environment’, we are in a kerfuffle if it can be said that way because when we look at the implementation of justice, it is selective. When we look at everything that is talking about good governance, we are talking about social and economic justice and many other factors.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, for those who are asking, “Where?”, even here in Parliament, there is discrimination. How do the hon. Members on your right vote for themselves? Members of the public are booing at them. They just pick from among themselves and vote for themselves. When they ask “where”, they should be ashamed. Things are not okay in this nation.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, looking at this, we are talking about literally …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to raise this point of order. This is in line with our Standing Orders to do with content of speech and that the statements that are given on the Floor of this House should be factual.

Mr Speaker, this is the National Assembly of Zambia and not any debate platform where one can issue statements willy-nilly because what comes up on the Floor of this House is taken to be serious out there by the viewers, citizens and the international community, because we live in a global village, which is interested in human rights.

Sir, the hon. Member on the Floor has made startling and hair-raising statements that are manifestly unsubstantiated by indicating that there is selective justice in this country. He first said “In this country, including this House.”

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to make such carte blanche statements knowing very well the rules of this House that the statements we make must be factual and substantiated? I need your serious ruling because our colleagues from the Patriotic Front (PF) are lowering the bar of debate on the Floor of this House.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I have to give advice to the House that, firstly, we should not bring ourselves or the House into our debate. We are not allowed. Our rules do not allow. Secondly, on issues of selective justice that the hon. Member has just mentioned, let us ensure that we do not mislead the public because such an issue is quite sensitive. Let us avoid making such statements because the public is listening. Let us avoid misleading ourselves for political expediency. Let us ensure that we stick to the contents of the speech. That is my guide.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, as I end, I would like to say that when we talk about the nation, it has ten provinces, of course, and the Constitution talks about a unitary State. I would not want to venture into that, looking at the time. However, let me say that in terms of justice, there are many people who are waiting to be awarded at the Ministry of Justice, but we have skipped and started awarding people who have just been – and on tramped up –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to add a few words to the debate on the speech by the President.

Sir, I want to start by saying that speech by the President can be described as uplifting and inspirational. Inspirational in the sense that during the delivery of the speech, the President outlined a number of achievements which the United Party for National Development (UPND) has been able to make barely two years in office.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: Key sectors that have made significant strides, in this regard, are the education sector, where we have seen many desks being delivered across the country. We have also seen teachers being employed and the introduction of free education. In the health sector, we are talking about the construction of maternity wings across the country. We are also talking about the Social Cash Transfer, which has been expanded and more money is being given to our people. So, there a number of achievements by the New Dawn Administration, and this is not debatable.

Sir, people who are calling the speech trash are those who are bitter; armchair critics.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: If my colleagues on the left want to continue on this trend where they want to start talking about things that are clearly visible in the eyes of the people as nonsense, then they are burying themselves. They are dead and buried. They will never come back.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: I know that the issue of trying to talk trash about the UPND is because up to now, unfortunately, two years down the road, people have not accepted that they lost elections.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: They need to accept that elections were lost and begin to think of …

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, my point of order is based on Standing Order No. 65, which relates to relevance of speech. I know that my brother could not have had the time to read through the President’s Speech or, maybe, did not take the task to understand what was in that speech.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament, who is on the Floor, in order to bring us into his debate? A few minutes ago, you guided me that we should not debate ourselves. However, he has been allowed to continue debating in that line, actually putting the House into contempt, according to Standing Order No. 207.

Is he in order to bring the House into contempt, because he is going to attract those he is referring to – you just ruled and then he goes on to debate in the manner that he is doing?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think I reserve my ruling.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, in his speech, the President talked about the stabilisation of the economy. I think this is another aspect that we cannot argue about. When we took over the Government, the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of this country was minus 2.8 per cent. As we speak today, 2022, it came to 4.7 per cent. So, I think that is in itself economic stabilisation, and one cannot argue about that.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is that the New Dawn Administration is going about its work in a systematic manner. So, this is not autopilot. The economy is not on autopilot. There is a leader who knows what he is doing.

Mr Kabuswe: A coach.

Mr Simushi: A coach who is able to know what he is doing so that he arrives at his vision. I have heard people on the radio talk about a lot of things in trying to mislead this country.

Mr Speaker, I want to talk about the issue of mealie meal, which people are talking about here. I think, let us face facts. The problem of mealie meal in this country has been perennial. It started with the United National Independence Party (UNIP), the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), the Patriotic Front (PF), and now the United Party for National Development (UPND). However, I want to tell hon. Members one thing. The difference is that under the New Dawn Administration, we are trying to look for permanent and sustainable solutions to the problems that this country has faced. So, when we are talking about mealie meal prices increasing, I can just give a flashback. Mr Kambwili, under the PF, is on record as having condemned how the PF Administration had increased the price of mealie meal so high. It is on record. However, what we are doing now is to find a lasting solution.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise reluctantly on this point of order for the fact that in this august House, we do not cite people who cannot come here and defend themselves. Is the hon. Member, who is trying to justify the high cost of mealie meal, for which he cannot even prescribe a solution as he is debating, in order to name an individual who is not able to come and defend himself? He mentioned an individual, in his speech, called Hon. Kambwili, who is no longer part of this august House.

Mr Speaker, following my hon. Colleague who had risen on a point of order earlier citing Standing Order No. 67 on the relevance of speech, is my hon. Colleague, who is waiting to join the Frontbench and needs to be active there, my dear hon. Colleague from the Southern Province, in order to cite individuals who cannot defend themselves here? It is a well-known practice. I seek your serious guidance on the hon. Member so that we do not drag people who cannot come here and defend themselves into our debates.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us ensure that we do not bring up people who are not in the House and those who cannot defend themselves into our debates.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, I am well-guided, and thank you so much.

Mr Speaker, I was talking about this Government prescribing sustainable solutions to the problems that have been long-lasting in this country and one of them is the issue of mealie meal. Now, this Government is trying to put in place measures that will ensure that the price of mealie meal, in the long-term, will not be an issue. Every person, even in the compound, will be able to afford the price of mealie meal. The PF and the other previous Governments failed to do that. So, what are we doing? What we are doing is this: We are increasing production and productivity in agriculture. How are we doing it? The President has opened the credit window where people can go and borrow and invest in agriculture.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Hammer!

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, we have the farming blocks and then we also have the space for farmers under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). So, production and productivity are going to increase. On top of that, when it comes to fertiliser, we have opened up the environment where investors can come, and they have already come. The price of fertiliser now is K650 from K1200. On top of that, we are bringing in the Zambia National Service (ZNS) milling plants. Okay.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, are they getting me?

Laughter

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, so, what is going to happen is that in the medium to long-term, we are going to see the price of mealie meal going down.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: That is what we want, and not superficial appeasement of citizens that they were doing, no.

Mr Speaker, I want to come to issue of the debt. I think our hon. Colleagues on the left should appreciate and they should be the last people to condemn the debt restructuring programme.

Mr Katakwe: Which they could not pay back.

Mr Simushi: The PF was in the Government for ten years. This Government has been in office for two years. It destroyed the economy in ten years and it wants us to rebuild it in two years. Is it normal?

Laughter

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, now, the debt restructuring should be something that we should all talk about in a positive manner because the people of Sikongo, through the debt restructuring, now are looking forward to the Sikongo/Kalabo Road being constructed. They are looking forward to the construction of the magistrate court and a level one hospital because we know that through the debt restructuring, resources have been unlocked that will go towards the productive sector in this country. So, they should not condemn the debt restructuring because when they do that, the people of Zambia out there are saying, “Are these people – we thought they were going to reform.”

Mr Sing’ombe: Are they normal?

Laughter

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, the other issue that I want to talk about is that by the time the New Dawn Administration leaves office, like we heard from the plans of the President, maybe, in the year 20100 somewhere there ...

Laughter

Mr Simushi: ... it is not the PF that is going to take over.

Hon. Government Members: No.

Mr Simushi: I think that one should be made very clear, and my younger hon. Colleagues on the other side should know that. Let them not be misled.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, thank you so much. I rise on a very serious point of order based on Standing Order No. 65, which requires us, as Members of Parliament, to tender discourse which is verifiable.

Mr Speaker, my hon. Colleague, who is on the Floor of the House, has just told this House that one of the measures they are undertaking is to bring investors to this country when he knows that there is a report from the United Nations (UN) which has shown money coming into this country and other countries in Africa. According to this UN report, Zambia is the least country receiving Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) to the tune of US$116 million when countries like Egypt are getting amounts of US$11 billion from investors. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation that Zambia is attracting investors when, in fact, Zambia is at the tail-end despite all these economic diplomacy trips that his Government is taking around the globe?

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you hon. Member. I think, your contribution and point of order is appreciated. However, we cannot operate the House using Facebook.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: That report should have been laid on the Table to –

May the hon. Member who was debating continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, with a mountain of debt, this Government has been able to achieve so much. Now, I am just wondering what is going to happen with the debt restructured.

Mr Speaker, I want to bring to the attention of this House –

Interruptions

Mr Simushi: I want to speak to my hon. Colleagues from the PF that this Government and this country are in safe hands.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, I want to help them to not be so bitter because we still need them to be alive to see how this country is going to be transformed by the time we reach 2030.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: Yes, we are going up to 2030.

Hon. Opposition Member: Where?

Mr Simushi: We are going up to 2030. So, ...

Hon. Opposition Member: Dream on!

Mr Simushi: ... they should not get themselves worked up. High blood pressure will hit them and they will not be there when we achieve economic emancipation for this country.

Mr Speaker, finally, let me say that people out there are very happy. The country is in safe hands, and we are making positive strides that we did not expect. That is why our colleagues are panicking.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Who is shouting like that?

Hon. Government Member: Chilubi!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, how do you shout as if you are on a football pitch?

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are an hon. Member and, as such, do not shout like that.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Was it the hon. Member for Chilubi?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Do not do that, my brother.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I said “Hear, hear!”

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, it is allowed, but you were screaming.

Interruptions

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, this opportunity to support the speech by His Excellency President Hakainde Hichilema, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces in Zambia, Chairperson of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and Chairperson of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ on Politics, Defence and Security.

Mr Speaker, His Excellency is the vision carrier for this country, and he came here to address this august House to set out the vision for this country by delivering to us the successes that the United Party for National Development (UPND) has scored exceedingly in the last two years and of its being in the Government.

Mr Speaker, the UPND Government has scored beyond recognition in its two years of service to this country that those who were used to partying and drinking Jameson are now very scared. One can see that when he talks about corruption, some hon. Members on your left get agitated because ...

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe: Uyo!

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: ... the President is talking about quality things. One can see what I am talking about.

Mr Speaker, this is the point His Excellency came to deliver here. He came here to ensure that he set out the vision for this country for the next three years.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Member: As you can see.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 66. I do not know if you are paying attention to the hon. Member. You guided us earlier on that we should refrain from debating ourselves and referring to ourselves. The hon. Member, who does not seem to ground his debate on the speech, is making insinuations and innuendos that we, on your left, got scared of what he attempts to term as corruption pronouncements that were made. Is he in order to make insinuations in such a fashion without providing proof to back his allegations?

I seek your serious guidance, Mr Speaker. We want to be orderly in this House. We are not going to sit here and allow someone to abuse us when we are sitting here listening quietly.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as I guided earlier, we should refrain from debating ourselves even if we could have observed, when the President was making his address to the House, one or two things. Let us ensure that we do not bring them on the Floor. What I am trying to emphasise is that let us avoid debating ourselves. That is my guide.

The hon. Member can continue.

Mr Munsanje: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. I am well-guided.

Mr Speaker, the key issues which His Excellency explained to this House relate to micro-economic stability for this country, going forward.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Nyambose and Hon. Kampyongo, what is the problem?

Mr Nyambose: Can I explain?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, you do not need to explain.

Interjection

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, let us avoid that.

Mr Nyambose interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Nyambose!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us avoid that. Hon. Kampyongo, I have been observing. Let us observe that – I think, when you observe where he is, there is a row in between the two of you. Let us ensure not to be provocative in a way.

Mr Kampyongo rose to speak.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, I am guiding. I do not need yours or anyone else’s comment. I am seeing what is happening. If certain people are provoked, they will react, but you know, let us just avoid that and ensure business is transacted well. Today is Friday and we just have under-thirty minutes before we knock off.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, His Excellency presented very simple statistics, basic statistics, and anybody who has gone through a Doctorate of Philosophy (PhD) programme, masters or a first-degree programme can understand simple statistics such as the 9.9 per cent inflation rate and the like. However, those who are used to debating abnormally end up confusing and not understanding the basic statistics the President presented, which have shown stability in the economy.

Mr Speaker, the stability of the economy is what is going to provide the services to my people in Mbabala Constituency. It is from there that we are going to see the agricultural programme, which His Excellency has outlined for this country to grow and deliver. For us in Mbabala, we are very happy with the speech of His Excellency. All that we are asking for is continued input into areas such as the repairing of our dams so that we can produce more food for those people who are complaining, but do not want to produce. We are ready to produce for this country because we are agriculturists. We know agriculture. We have been practising agriculture from the time I was a young boy to date. I produce mealie meal and I feed myself. Those who are on the side of saying the Government must produce for them, how do they expect to have food when they cannot produce for themselves? They need to be productive. That is the message the President is sharing and not the detractors who are saying, “No, we want free mealie meal.” They cannot even spell the word “mealie meal”.

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: It is a shame.

Mr Fube interjected.

Mr Munsanje: Mr Speaker, we are talking about veterinary services. We are very happy with the way the vaccinations are going on. Well done to the New Dawn and the hon. Minister, Mr Chikote. We want the Government to continue with that programme and deal with all other animal diseases so that our animals can continue to produce T-bone for Members like Hon. Fube and others who like eating it.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Munsanje: Mr Speaker, I want to thank His Excellency for the continued work he is doing, including developing the fish market, which hasa deficit in this country.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisopa: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The hon. Member, who is debating, knows very well that from the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era, the Government has been providing relief food in Shangombo, …

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Chisopa: … and Luano Valley. Is it its position that, now, it has stopped giving relief food, as he is insinuating?

I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you said it was a point of order, yet you did not state what rule had been breached.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Member: So, it is nullified!

Mr Chisopa: Standing Order No.65, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I know it is on a lighter note.

May the hon. Member continue.

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: I thank you so much, Mr Speaker.

We have heard here, in the House, from people who came in a stupor and were not listening or paying attention that …

Ms Nyirenda: Ah!

Mr Munsanje: … health workers and teachers were not recruited. We have heard here.

Mr Speaker, 30,000 teachers were recruited and are currently employed, serving and making money for their families. Similarly, 12,000 health workers were recruited and are now serving. In my constituency, in a number of schools and health centres, ...

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Munsanje: … I have seen many of them who have been employed and are busy working and delivering for the people of Zambia.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, today, I have sat quietly. I am hoping to be elected as the most disciplined hon. Member next time, ...

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: ... but this one is too heavy. This is a House of order and hon. Members who, in their conduct and speech, must respect each other. The rules of the House under our Standing Orders require decorum in the House. Is the hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating on the Floor of the House, who we hold in very high esteem, …

Hon. UPND Member: Since when?

Mr B. Mpundu: … in order to allege, insinuate and propose or suggest that the Member of Parliament, Hon. Chisopa, who rose on a point of order, …

Ms Nyirenda: My husband!

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: … the husband to Hon. Brenda Nyirenda, has come to the House drunk without laying evidence on the Table that he is? Is he in order to insult the hon. Member of Parliament, who is always sober?

Mr Speaker, I have restrained myself from commenting because I want to be voted the most disciplined, but this one, …

Ms Nyirenda: It is too heavy!

Mr B. Mpundu: … I leave to you to rule.

I submit, Mr Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda: Lay him on the Table.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think, most importantly, let us avoid bringing each other into the debate. As hon. Members, let us desist from –

Mr Kasandwe rose.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Now, hon. Member for – You are hon. Member for which constituency?

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Bangweulu?

Hon. Member for Bangweulu, you are becoming unruly these days.

Laughter

Mr Kasandwe interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, no, no!

You know, when I am trying to guide, you are supposed to be attentive. That is what the rules say. On the contrary, you want to be the most outspoken. I will not allow that because we cannot have two people in this House directing business. Then, one has to leave. So, to avoid that, let us just ensure that we conduct ourselves in an honourable manner.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: At times, it does not pay to be the most outspoken. There is also wisdom in silence. I think you get more credit from your hon. Friends if you are modest and silent. You gain more. You do not need to be loud. That is my guide.

As for the hon. Member on the Floor, let us desist from bringing ourselves into the debate.

The hon. Member for Mbabala may continue.

Mr Munsanje: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. I was just emphasising or lecturing some of my hon. Colleagues who did not pay attention because the President actually mentioned figures regarding the recruitments that have been done by the New Dawn Government. The ones he mentioned in the speech are additional for 2023 to 2024. Therefore, the recruitment that is going on, at the moment, in the health sector is in the President’s Speech from last year. So, we need to be paying attention, and that is why I said that we should not come to the House in a stupor.

Hon. PF Members interjected.

Mr Munsanje: We should be coming to listen, pay attention and get things correctly so that we do not mislead the public. We do not need to mislead the public out there. We need to always talk about facts and things that are going on well. I am also very happy with the additional early Childhood Education Centres (ECEs) because early childhood education is key to the future of this country.

Further, Mr Speaker, I am also very happy that the Social Cash Transfer Programme will continue. What we are calling for is improvement in delivery. There are issues surrounding beneficiaries who receive their funds through mobile phones in the village and also targeting of persons with disabilities who need to be supported.

Mr Speaker, my final comment is on the improvement of airports, which I am happy with, especially the Kasama Airport that has been done by the New Dawn Government. We look forward to an airport in Choma so it can enable us to efficiently get to our constituencies in Choma to complement the work of our hon. Minister who is doing a wonderful job there.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for this opportunity and, indeed, His Excellency for raising the level of the debate in the House.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, I want to debate in an orderly manner, but I am scared now because my neighbour here, the hon. Member for ‘Luano’, according to him (pointing at Mr Munsanje) is drunk.

Mr Mutale: I know, Mr Speaker, that this is a House of orderliness and our decorum must always be respected. If we are overriding certain issues where our constituents are feeling that we are drunk in the House, it becomes dangerous. Having been a Whip of this House, I feel that we are now lowering the credit and decorum of this House.

Mr Speaker, there was a question here in the House and, believe me, I was going to debate very orderly, but I have changed my mind because of the question I got from the hon. Member for Sikongo who included me in his debate. He asked the question that, “Are you normal, you people in the Patriotic Front (PF)?”

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, let me guide you. Resume your seat.

I already guided. If the hon. Member for Sikongo made a mistake, you should not repeat it. Two wrongs cannot make a right.

Mr Kasandwe interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Two wrongs will never make a right. Even from a household point of view, if one person has made a mistake, you are not expected to repeat the same mistake. So, my appeal to you is that we desist from bringing ourselves into the debate. If one hon. Member made a mistake, we cannot continue on that path. I think it is better to correct it. Just as you have already put it straight that this is a House of honour, I think, in your debate, continue on that path. Demonstrate what you are advocating.

You may continue with your debate.

Hon. PF Member: Hammer!

Mr Mutale: Mr Speaker, I read something on Page 4, which gave me many things to talk about. The President indicated that there is a 4.7 per cent economic growth, which was posted in the year 2022. Figures do not lie. However, I want us to be very honest with ourselves. I know that matters which are affecting the people of Chitambo are also affecting everyone in this country. Matters which are affecting the PF party as regards economic hardships are also affecting all other parties in this country.

Mr Speaker, if we posted a 4.7 per cent economic growth, as a country, can we illustrate it and show to the world that as we speak, right now, economically, we are developing. If at all, economically, we are developing, why are we having fuel prices increasing every day? Why are we having the price of mealie meal escalating every day? Why are we having shortages of mealie meal in parts of this country?

Mr Speaker, it is not only that. The President himself, sitting where you are seated, did tell the nation that he accepts that things are not well in this country, but he is doing something about it. What I really wanted to hear him say was what he is doing about it. He told us that he has been to compounds to see for himself the hardships that the people of Zambia are going through. It was good that he accepted.

Mr Speaker, what I want to learn from the Members of the Executive, when they start debating is whether maybe, he has told them what he is going to do about the economic hardships that we are faced with. Figures are here, and I am aware that post the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), we had this positive growth. However, this year, we have been told that growth will be at 2.7 per cent. What is happening? What is wrong? Where are we missing it? If, for sure, we have stabilised the economy, why are we going to post a figure less than that for 2022? Let us interrogate this very carefully so that technocrats do not mislead the Executive. For once, they should bring figures which are interpreting the real Gross Domestic Products (GDP) vis-à-vis the economic growth.

Mr Speaker, I have also seen the 9.9 per cent inflation rate in the speech. Yes, figures do not lie, according to what books say, but can we go on the ground and see whether it is true that we do not have any inflation.

Mr Speaker, from the little school and knowledge that I have, I know that inflation is the continuous escalation of prices in commodities. This is what is happening right now. Prices of commodities have continued to rise, meaning that there is inflation. There is a huge difference between the price at which mealie meal was being bought in 2021 as compared to now.

Mr Speaker, to have a figure maintained at 9.9 because we want to please some people who are going to look at our inflation rate should be very wrong. Let us, for once, as a country, be very honest with ourselves and show the world the figures which are obtaining.

Mr Speaker, there is a figure that the President has always mentioned in this House, that this country must achieve 3,000,000 metric tonnes of production of copper. This time around, when the President came, he did not speak about it. He did not indicate anything to show where we are in achieving this production. I would like the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, when he comes to debate, to indicate to us what is being done for us to achieve the 3,000,000 metric tonnes of copper production in this country for us to have a real GDP.

Mr Speaker, as the hon. Minister of Education also comes to debate, I would like him to answer my question on the 149 schools. I want to know about the 149 secondary schools which the President told us the Government has built in the past two years because, up to now, I am still scratching my bald head to try and understand where these schools are. I would like the hon. Minister to inform the nation so that we know where the 149 schools are.

Mr Speaker, I know, for once, that even our currency, right now, has lost value. It has lost value in the sense that the inflation levels are too high. I would once – Let me end here.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for according me, on behalf of the good people of Mangango, an opportunity to add a word to the debate on the President’s Speech, which is very inspiring and has motivated many people. It is giving hope to many Zambians as opposed to what our colleagues on your left thought. To them, the speech does not make sense, but that is their reasoning. It is like they cannot understand simple terminologies and simple concepts that the President put on the Floor of this House, which any other person can easily understand.

Mr Speaker, maybe, I just try to react to some of the issues that my colleague, the hon. Member who was just on the Floor of this House, tried to talk about. It is like he was trying to understand some issues and misunderstand them all at the same time. The hon. Member talked about fuel prices, insinuating that the increase in fuel prices is because of inflation, which is not correct. From simple macro-economics, the cause of the increase in prices is the direct or the exact cost of fuel that we are buying it at.

Mr Speaker, in those days, the Patriotic Front (PF), if we remember very well, was able to sell fuel to the people of Zambia purporting to have subsidised. Meanwhile, the Government was not paying the subsidy on the fuel and, as such, Zambia accumulated a huge debt, almost US$27 billion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: Those people on your left understand and know very well that the problem we are facing today is because of their mismanagement of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer! Hammer!

Mr Mwene: Mr Speaker, hon. Members like these, especially seasoned ones like them, should not stand on the Floor of this House to mislead the nation in such a manner.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are left with six minutes. There will be no more points of order.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Mwene: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for your protection.

Mr Speaker, it is not genuine of a Government to lie or to not tell the truth to the people and say it is subsidising on their behalf, but meanwhile, it is not paying off the debt. That is not in order, and it is not an honest way of leading a country like Zambia and is the reason the people of Zambia are seeing these monthly changes in the price of fuel. It is causing a little fluctuation in some prices, which is very opposite to what my hon. Colleague said that it was because of inflation. That is not correct.

Mr Speaker, he also referred to the prices of mealie meal, and that the cost of living is going up because the price of mealie meal is going up, and so on and so forth. It is very very simple to understand what the President talked about on Page 4. He talked about creating a very good environment to enable each one of us, as Zambians, to take part in agriculture. By agriculture, we are talking about a variety of production of goods and services that should enable us to produce more.

Mr Speaker, for example, let us talk about a simple crop, maize. When many take part in the production of maize, even the cost of mealie meal will get low as opposed to what our hon. Colleagues have been telling people. They have been standing on the Floor of this House telling people that not everyone can take part in agriculture. Why should we not take part in agriculture? Even for us, as hon. Members of Parliament in here, it is very important that we take part in agriculture so that we increase the food basket of this country. That will cause the cost of mealie meal to come down.

Mr Speaker, the President has already given a very good environment for the market for maize itself by increasing the cost of a bag from what it was costing during the tenure of the people on your left. They were suppressing the price of maize, making farmers not to be able to produce more. Now, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, the Commander-in-Chief of the four armed forces, as it stands this time, has created that enabling environment for everyone to produce because there is a ready market for maize at a higher price.

Mr Speaker, if fewer people take part in agriculture, we are going to have a smaller quantity of maize. Let me give a very simple illustration. If, in here, we say, “Okay, let only Hon. Mwene plant maize, and the rest of your hon. Members of Parliament here, will be fed by him alone, is he going to manage? The answer is, no. Since he will not manage, what will be the cost of mealie meal? It will be high as opposed to when you encourage everyone in here to produce maize. There would be a lot of it and, as such, all these hon. Members would be able to feed the single person, who may be Hon. Mwene, who may not have planted maize. There would be plenty of food to feed the one who did not farm and because of the plenty maize that would be available, the cost of mealie meal would also reduce.

Mr Speaker, that is the reason the President stated, clearly, that he is going to support the agriculture sector by creating some empowerment for all those who want to venture into it. That is meant to increase production in the agriculture sector, which is maize and livestock. It remains for the hon. Minister of Agriculture to enact that in Zambia, so that there will be a high production of maize and more mealie meal so that my brothers, like the hon. Member for –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, avoid bringing this House into your debate.

Mr Mwene: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, may I, again, talk about prudent spending. The Bembas say, “umwana ashenda atasha …

Interruptions

Mr Mwene: Ah ah!

Mr Mwene: The President is going around –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Meaning what?

Mr Mwene: Mr Speaker, meaning that a child who does not go around eating from other people’s homes will always appreciate the mother as being the best cook. Meanwhile, there are other people who can cook better out there. That is the reason our President is going out there to seek help from people and countries that are able to help us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: If he does not go out, we will remain behind, retarded and the economy will keep on deteriorating.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: Mr Speaker, the President’s going out has not been extravagant expenditure like it was during the reign of the PF …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwene: … where people would go out and start dancing all over like that, no. He is going out to bring help to us, the people of Zambia.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mwene: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Thank you, Mr Speaker –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 19^th September, 2023.

___________

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