Thursday, 12th October, 2023

Thursday, 12^thOctober, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER OF PARALIMENT FOR PAMBASHE CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION, MR KAKUBO, ON THE CONFLICT IN GAZA

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, this matter is directed to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. It has to do with the war in the occupied space between Israel and Palestine.

Madam Speaker, there are Zambians who are studying in Israel. So, parents across Zambia, including in my constituency, have been calling because they do not know the status and safety of their children who are studying in Israel. In addition, Zambia has an embassy in Tel Aviv, where there are members of staff who are serving this country.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation has not addressed the Zambian people through this august House to assure them of the safety of the Zambians who are serving in that region.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance.

Madam Speaker: I recall that when we had the situation of the war between Ukraine and Russia, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation was requested to render a ministerial statement following a matter of urgent public importance that was raised. In like manner, the hon. Minister requested to render a ministerial statement next week, on Wednesday, just to update the House and, through this House, members of the public, on the situation in that region, following the war that has just started.

MR MENYANI ZULU, HON. MEMBER OF PARALIMENT FOR NYIMBA CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, MR MTOLO, ON THE COMPREHENSIVE AGRICULTURE TRANSFORMATION AND SUPPORT PROGRAMME

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, sorry that yesterday, I did not have time to congratulate you on your award at the recently held Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Conference. Above all, you were wearing a very beautiful dress.

Interruptions

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed to the hon. Minister of Agriculture.He may agree with me that as of today, people have started –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us pay attention. Let us not interject. We can allow the hon. Member for Nyimba to raise his matter of urgent public importance.

Thank you very much for those remarks. I do not know what attire that was. Maybe, I should wear it more often.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, my question goes to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. I think, you will agree with me that the fertiliser that has been supplied to different parts of this country is not enough for all our farmers to benefit from. The Government has mentioned on many fora that it has come up with what is called the Comprehensive Agriculture Transformation and Support Programme (CATSP).

Madam Speaker, when you ask a good number of your Parliamentarians here about this programme, they will tell you that they do not know how to answer their people in their constituencies. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order to sit comfortably in that chair and not tell the Zambian people what this new programme is? People are asking where they are going to get input support because what they have is not enough.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I think, issues of agriculture and fertiliser have graced the Floor of this House on numerous occasions. I suggest that the hon. Minister of Agriculture makes it a habit to brief the House and, through this House, the nation on how the fertiliser situation is going. However, hon. Members, as we do this, we should also be alive to the provisions of our Standing Orders, in particular Standing Order 67, which provides that we should not be repetitious.

Hon. Minister, there is an outcry that people here are not yet familiar with that programme. I do not know if it is possible to even have a workshop for your fellow hon. Members of Parliament so that you explain to them what this concept is all about. Maybe, you can comment on this issue.

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the concern by the hon. Member.

Madam Speaker, I should mention that I will issue a ministerial statement soon in order to give the hon. Members of the House the exact details. I want to believe that the hon. Member is mostly talking about the credit window rather than the Comprehensive Agriculture Transformation and Support Programme (CATSP), per se.

Madam Speaker, I take note of your guidance that there could be a need for a workshop, maybe in the Amphitheatre, for all the hon. Members who would be interested to come. I will make arrangements with your office through the Clerk so that we educate one another on this issue.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The workshop will be on a voluntary basis.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Anyway, I am sure, the Office of the Clerk will look into that. I understand, Wednesday, next week is a public holiday. So, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation will, instead, come to the House on Thursday to deliver that ministerial statement.

MR MULEBWA, HON. MEMBER OF PARALIMENT FOR KAFULAFUTA CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, MR TAYALI, ON ROAD TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS COUNTRYWIDE

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mulebwa: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for this opportunity and congratulate you on your latest award.

Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance was going to be directed to the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, but he is not in the House. In this case, I do not know what your guidance would be. Should I go ahead and raise my matter or I should wait for him?

Madam Speaker: You may proceed, hon. Member. It is one Cabinet and there is an Acting hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics. We also have Her Honour the Vice-President as the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Mulebwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for that guidance.

Madam Speaker, in the recent the past, we have witnessed many road traffic accidents. In my constituency, there has been one occasion in which the Government has had to come in to help the bereaved families. It seems to be a normal thing in Zambia now to have so many road accidents. My observation is that the road rules seem to have collapsed in this country. I think, every time all of us are driving, we see that many people do not seem to observe traffic rules. I am, therefore, wondering whether the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics has noticed this and whether he has any plan to help, us, as a nation, because where we are going, I think, we are going to witness more fatal accidents. I know that nobody has died today, but this is my observation.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

Madam Speaker: I suggest that the hon. Member for Kafulafuta files a question so that the hon. Minister can answer, as the matter does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Of course, there is worry about the accidents that are occurring.

The hon. Member for Bangweulu has indicated late, but I will give him the Floor.

You can raise your matter, hon. Member.

MR KASANDWE, HON. MEMBER OF PARALIMENT FOR BANGWEULU CONSTITUENCY, ON THE VICE-PRESIDENT, MRS NALUMANGO, ON CASSAVA DISEASES IN LUAPULA PROVINCE

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise a matter that is urgent.

Madam Speaker, it is problem after problem in Bangweulu. Last week or the other week, I raised a matter about a strange disease. The Ministry of Health, apparently, came to this House and told us that the strange disease was, in fact, measles. That measles has spread throughout all the ten provinces in Zambia and about 1,600 children are affected.

Madam Speaker, however, the matter I am now raising has to do with the cassava in Bangweulu, Bahati, Milenge and Chitambo constituencies. I do not know if I have to call this disease that is affecting cassava plants strange. In Bangweulu alone, seven out of ten wards are affected, and more than100,000 people depend on cassava for food security.This matter is directed to Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I believe that the issue of cassava diseases is not a matter of recent occurrence. We have spoken about the cassava diseases that have occurred in Luapula Province. Therefore, I suggest that you file in an urgent question and then Her Honour the Vice-President can address it.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

REPAIR OF IOLANDA ONE WATER TREATMENT PLANT

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to brief the House and, through this House, the nation at large on the progress made on the repair works on the Iolanda One Pipeline.

Madam Speaker, the House will recall that on 12^thSeptember, 2023, I informed the nation, through this House, on a matter of urgent public importance about the shutdown of the Iolanda One Water Treatment Plant in Kafue in order to facilitate repair works on the main transmission pipeline to Lusaka for a period not exceeding two months. Through this statement,I wish to update the House and the nation at large on the progress made so far.

Madam Speaker, I am glad to report that immediately after the announcement that I made on the Floor of the House on 12^th September, 2023, Lusaka-based hon. Members of Parliament were taken to the site in the company of various media personnel to see what we had reported on the Floor of the House.In addition, Lusaka-based hon. Councillors were also taken to the site, and the Lusaka Water Supply and Sanitation Company (LWSC) further engaged the media through a press briefing on the issue before shutting down the pipeline on Monday, 18^th September, 2023.

Thereafter, Madam Speaker,a team of engineers from LWSCcommenced the repair works. They worked sixteen hours daily and managed to conclude the repair works on 29^thSeptember, 2023. Prior to the completion of the said works, on 27^th September, 2023, I personally undertook an inspection of them in the company of members of the press. All this was being done to keep our people in Lusaka and the nation at large informed about the progress of the repairs.

Madam Speaker, I am delighted to, once again, address this House on this matter but, this time around, to inform the nation that the repair works were concluded on 29^th September, 2023, and that the works were undertakenwithin eleven days, against the initial planned period of twenty days.

Madam Speaker, I wish to state that the completed works, besides replacing the leaking pipe bend, included the casting of a concrete support block, which has been allowed to cure for twenty-one days to attain adequate strength to support the pipe. As such, we are currently in the period of allowing the concrete to fully cure, which is a period of twenty-one days effective 30^th September, 2023. I am also glad to inform this House and the nation that the twenty-one days curing period for the concrete support block which, as earlier stated, commenced on 30^th September, 2023, will end on 20^th October, 2023. The team of engineers from LWSC will then undertake pressure testing of the pipeline for a maximum period of forty-eight hours immediately after the curing period on 20^thOctober, 2023.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, I wish to report that the Iolanda One Water Treatment Plant is scheduled to resume operations on 22^nd October, 2023. I wish to repeat that the Iolanda One Water Treatment Plant is scheduled to resume full operations on 22^nd October, 2023. That will be exactly thirty-four days from the time the works started. As you would recall, LWSChad initially requested for sixty days, but the effort put in has resulted in the completion of the said works in almost half the time indicated prior to the commencement of repair works.

Madam Speaker, I am fully aware of the water supply challenges our people in the City of Lusaka are facing because of the shutdown of the IolandaOne Water Treatment Plant. I am further alive to the impact this undertaking has had on the lives of our people in Lusaka, and that this undertaking is at a critical time of the year when water is needed the most. However, I wish to bring to your attention the fact that even during these difficult times, the utility company has made it possible for our critical installations, such as the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), Maina Soko Military Hospital and Levy Mwanawasa Hospitalhave had steady piped water supply on a daily basis. Furthermore, the utility company has been deploying water bowsers to communities that have been severely affected to mitigate the adverse impacts.

Madam Speaker, I wish to end my statement by assuring the people of our city, Lusaka, that once the water treatment plant becomes operational, the challenges being faced will be minimised. Further, allow me to convey my sincere apologies to the affected people in the city of Lusaka for the inconvenience the shutdown may have caused to them. However, it is worth noting that the repair works were very necessary to avert a daily loss of about 20 million litres of treated water.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement rendered by the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to ask a question to the hon. Minister based on his statement. I am compelled to ask this question

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister think that the previous Government invested enough in the water sector?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I am asking this question ...

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member, just ask your question without going back into history–

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister think that the previous Government invested enough in the water sector in Lusaka Province and on the Copperbelt Province?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I also want to thank my brother, Hon. Sing’ombe,the Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi Constituency, for this question.

Madam Speaker, I just wish to add more information, as I respond to this question.

You may wish to note that currently, the daily demand for water in Lusaka is 480million litres per day. Unfortunately, we only have supply capacity of 306 million litres per day.You may wish to note that one of the pipelines we are working on has a capacity of 85million litres, and it was constructed in 1970, whereas the recently-constructed pipeline; Iolanda Two, only has a capacity of 70million litres. What this means, clearly, is that those who built the treatment plant and pipeline in 1970, soon after the Independence of this country, built a pipeline with a bigger capacity, at 85 million litres. So many years later, so much money was borrowed to build a water plant whose design capacity is only 50million litres per day, but is pushing 70million litres.

Mr Kapyanga: Question!

Ms Sefulo: Ah, order, Iwe!

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, to answer this question, from the calculations, if you pick the two pipelines giving us 85 million litres per day and the other one which is giving us 70 million litres per day, then the boreholes which are supplying various parts of Lusaka, giving us 151 million litres per day, that gives us a supply capacity of 306 millionlitre per day. That leaves us with a deficit of 174million litres per day. I am sure that the figures adequately respond to the question on there having been low investment in the water sector.I think, in the past ten years, there has not been so much investment. Maybe, there was more dancing than investment in the water sector.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, due to the effects of climate change, we expect to have challenges with water, especially for agriculture. Under the Patriotic Front (PF)Government, four major dams and the water schemes were constructed. Do we see the United Party for National Development coming up with a deliberate policy to also construct some dams as a way of assisting or alleviating possible challenges of water supply, especially with agriculture?

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu:Mwandi also!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

This habit of debating while seated is not supported. Hon. B. Mpundu, even for you to say “Mwandi also”, you came in late and you are already making running commentaries. Can we respect one another, please.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the Leader of the Opposition for this question,except that the question is completely outside the statement I have rendered, which has been very clear.

I have just briefed the House on the progress made regarding Iolanda OneTreatment Plant. However, just as a matter of courtesy, and to appreciate the fact that the question he has asked is very important,let me say that, yes, the Government has made a decisionto pay more attention to the water harvesting infrastructure so that we can scale up the farming activities, particularly irrigated farming. We may have to use this kind of infrastructure to harvest water to respond to the challenges that have been brought before us due to climate change. So, next year alone, you will notice, as provided for in the Budget, that we will build about twenty-eight dams. Further, working with my counterpart, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, we hope to build ten more dams under the Ministry of Agriculture. This is the position of the Government, but our desire is to construct more dams, resources allowing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, when responding to the questions, the hon. Minister used the word “minimise”. He said that after the resumption of water supply on 22^ndOctober, 2023, the challenges would be minimised. My question to the hon. Minister is: Why is it that after the resumption, challenges will not stop they will just reduce?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I want to thank my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, for the supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I carefully used the word “minimise”, realising the fact that the problems, be it water or any other, will always be there. So, I would have not been factual if I had said that the water problems would end once we had restored the pipeline. The fact is that the problems will minimise because we know that there will always be new issues that emerge. With the problem we are resolving, we are merely addressing the fact that we have been losing between 17 million litres and 20 million litres of water per day. However, we are still grappling with the problem of the deficit of 174 million litres per day. So, the repairs on the Iolanda One Water Treatment Plant and the pipeline will not resolve all the water problems in Lusaka. This is why I said that the problems will be minimised, obviously, because we have been operating using one pipeline, the 70 million litres capacity and the 151 million cubic litres per day, from the boreholes. So, the 85 million litres per day that was taken off will be restored. We expect, that will push the supply up and then we can minimise the challenges that are being faced as a result of the shutdown.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe(Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me, once again, to thank you for the opportunity to ask my colleague a supplementary question on this very important topic of water supply.

Madam Speaker, the previous Government–

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I do not know, but the word “colleague” was used even yesterday. He is ‘the hon. Minister’. Do not call him a colleague. You will call him a colleague outside when we are not in the House. Let us address him as ‘the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation’. It is the formal way of addressing him. We are doing something formal here.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, your guidance is well noted and appreciated. In the future, I will refer to any Member of Parliament who is a Minister as ‘hon. Minister’ for a particular portfolio.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that in his ministry, there are records that show that the previous Government engaged the African Development Bank (AfDB) and the Germany Bank, the KreditanstaltfürWiederaufbau (KfW), for financial support towards the water sector. He is also aware that the Chinese Government also helped us with several water projects but, obviously, the population has been increasing. Is the hon. Minister in charge of water considering undertaking a trip to the People’s Republic of China specifically to seek financial support towards the water sector?

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Hon. Members, the ministerial statement that the hon. Minister rendered this afternoon was to update the House and, through this House, members of the public on the status of the repair works that were being undertaken. So, on the issue of a trip to China, maybe, the hon. Member can file a question that the hon. Minister can address.

We can make progress.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, thank you so much, and congratulations.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that we were losing 20 million litres of water per day. What could be the estimated loss from the time the facility developed the fault?

Mr Mposha:Madam Speaker, I want to thank my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba, for this very good question.

Madam Speaker, the leakage has been there for years. Obviously, the amount of water that we were losing, and I want to emphasise here that this is water that was treated and pumped at a huge cost, so, considering the long period the leakage has been in existence, we have, obviously, through the LWSC, lost colossal sums of money. Unfortunately, I do not have the exact figures. Suffice it for me to say that a lot of money was being lost.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may recall that I did indicate, when I was answering the questions the first time I spoke about this issue, that the first time I went to inspect, about four or five months ago, the leakage was to the extent that we were losing 10 million litres of water per day. At the time that we made the decision to close and begin the works, and about four or three months later, the leak had worsened and we were losing between 17 million litres to 20 million litres per day. So, when you look at that and the period during which we have been losing that water, you will see that it is a huge loss.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Let us hear from the people who are affected the most.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation a question.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I must commend the team that is carrying out the rehabilitation works at the plant. However, the people of Mandevu are crying. So, I want to take this opportunity to register the fact that while water is being rationed, the Ministry of Energy, through ZESCO Limited, is load-shedding us in Kabanana every day. Instead of getting water through private boreholes, we have load-shedding every day at 0700 hours. That must come to an end because our people may start getting sick.

Madam Speaker, my question is: Now that the repair works at IolandaOne Water Treatment Plant are done, are we going to see the same team of engineers going to carry out repair works on the leaking sewer pipes in Marapodi Compound of Mandevu? Will they be moved to Mandevu?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, that question is not related to the one being dealt with. However, on the issue of load-shedding, the hon. Minister is there (pointed at the hon. Minister of Energy). You can have a chat with him.

Mr Mposha: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I also want to thank my brother, the hon. Member for Mandevu, not only for the supplementary question, but also for the fact that he is one of the hon. Members of Parliament who spared time to go with us to Kafue to appreciate the magnitude of the problem we had at hand. Thank you very much, my dear brother.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, power outages have actually worsened the problem we are having now of insufficient water supply. As you know, when we do not have power at the treatment plant, we are not able to pump water into Lusaka. If we have any power outage, either in the western or eastern part of the city, we are not able to pump water. I totally share the pain of the people of Mandevu Constituency because we did announce that we were going to have a schedule, which we drew up and was provided to the ministry, and which we shared notes on with the utility company and approved. What we had agreed on was that in terms of rationing of water, supply hours would be reduced, on average, to between four and six. Unfortunately, owing to the several and massive repair works that ZESCO Limited is undertaking in various communities, I think, in preparation for the onset of the rainy season, during which we normally have serious power problems, the pumping of water has been affected, hence making it impossible for us to follow the agreed schedule of water supply. So, that is regrettable, but we also appreciate, from the water sector, that the power utility company has to prepare adequately so that as we go into the rainy season, we do not experience prolonged blackouts. That said, we have been engaging with the Ministry of Energy, the LSWC and ZESCO Limited to ensure that we minimise the inconveniences on our people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, you were trying to raise a point of order. What is the point of order?

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Sorry, hon. Minister for disturbing your address to the House.

Mr Mposha indicated assent.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I raise the point of order in accordance with Standing Order No. 65, which is on ‘content of speech’.

The hon. Member for Kamfinsa referred to the hon. Minister as his colleague, and you ruled that here, in the House, we need to be very formal. However, even after you delivered that ruling, the hon. Minister continued referring to hon. Members who were asking questions as his dear brothers.

Was he in order, Madam Speaker?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: ‘Dear brother’ is more formal than colleague.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: However, hon. Members, as we address one another, let us try to be as formal as possible. Actually, let us be formal. This idea of calling one another brother, colleague, sister, …

Hon. Members: Comrades!

Madam Speaker: … comrade and so on and so forth is not allowed. We have to maintain the discipline and decorum of the House by referring to one another formally, just call on hon. Members by saying, “Hon. Member for this constituency” or “Hon. Members, may you resume your seat”. We should do the same.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you may proceed.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. The challenge of matching the growing population with water infrastructure is a huge one and, for Lusaka Province, it is even worse because as you know, the groundwater is very contaminated. One would wonder what could have happened if there was no Iolanda Two Water Treatment Plant in view of what happened at Iolanda One Water Treatment Plant. If, indeed, investing in the Kafue Bulk Water Supply Project, Kafulafuta Dam Project, the water project in Nakonde and the Chambeshi Water Modular Plant in Chinsali is, in the hon. Minister’s view, not enough investment, how much investment do we see the ministry putting in the water sector in the two years remaining of hs being at the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation?

Mr Mubika: We are still continuing.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, when I was explaining the low investment in water infrastructure around Lusaka, I gave the examples that soon after Independence in 1964, and in 1970, the Iolanda One Water Treatment Plant and pipeline were constructed with a design capacity of 85 million litres of water per day. So many years after Independence, however, and with due respect, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came in with the Kafue Bulk Water Supply Project at a cost of US$150 million with a design capacity of only 50 million litres. So, the design capacity is 50 million–

Mr Chala interjected.

Mr Mposha: I am the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, hon. Member for Chipili. Hold on and get the facts. The design capacity of that pipeline is 50 million litres of water per day, but it is being pushed to produce and supply 70 million litres. I was very emphatic when I was explaining that. Please, do not debate whilst seated.

Laughter

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, four years after Independence, the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government built a pipeline and treatment plant with an 85 million litre capacity. So many years later, however, other water projects were implemented with so many resources put in. Obviously, when you compare the two projects, I think, what could have been desirable is a situation in which we responded better because the population had already grown. The Chinsali project is, for me, one of the most painful projects, and the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu should understand that it was worth only K51 million. It started many years ago, but it could not be completed and was allowed to stall for a long time until we provided the resources, finished it and commissioned it. The point is that we could have paid more attention and, in agreeing with the hon. Member, it is true that the challenge of matching population growth and service provision, in particular water supply, is huge. This is why, I think, we should have, in the past, paid more attention but, it is what it is. We have this problem, and it is why the President has given us instructions to push in more resources and embark on projects to match the supply with population growth.

Madam Speaker, with regards to the hon. Member’s question, in terms of what the ministry is doing, my response is that he must watch the space. We have already put measures in place.

I know the Hon. Madam Speaker, that you ruled on whether we were thinking of going to China. In fact, the President already sent me there five months ago to have discussions, and there is a project coming. I would not want to pre-empt things, but we will be announcing that which will address some of the challenges that we are facing in Lusaka.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mposha: So, within two years, so much is being done, and I can tell you to just give us time and pay attention. You are going to see our plans to improve water supply.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Eng. Mabenga dozed in his seat.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker:A point of order is raised.

Rev. Katuta: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me, on behalf of the people of Chienge, to rise on this important point of order. This is a House of decorum. I just want, through you, to raise this point of order on the hon. Member for Mulobezi, who is sleeping in the House when the hon. Minister is busy giving us very important information.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

From where I seat, I see many hon. Members take a few minutes to communicate with the Lord.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, please, hon. Members, let us remain alert. On the other hand, let us not use that to raise points of order. You can just nudge your hon. Colleague or send a note saying, ‘please hon. Member, can you say Amen, quickly’.

Thank you very much. I am sure, the hon. Member for Mulobezi is okay now.

Laughter

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, I have seen that there are a number of indications, but please, as I extend time, I will add 10 minutes, let us ask on the update on the water works. Let us not meander all over and squander the time. I have added 10 minutes.

Mr J.E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central this opportunity to ask the hon. Minister a question.

Madam Speaker, water is life. Here, in Lusaka, we only depend on piped water, not water from the wells.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke!

Is that factual? I depend on borehole water. Many people also depend on water from boreholes, not on piped water. So, please, be factual and get straight to the point.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, many people depend on piped water and borehole water. Those who are doing well depend on water from boreholes. As you may be aware, a borehole is expensive to drill.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, when it was reported that there was this problem and that the ministry had to work on the pipe that had a problem, did the ministry consult engineers? Since water is life, the engineers would have advised that the works on the pipeline be done at night so that people can, at least, have water during the day. That is how the Chinese work. Next time, the ministry should undertake a benchmarking visit to China so it can emulate what the Chinese do. That way, people can have water reconnectedin the shortest period.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you have taken almost three minutes to ask one question. Your friends are being deprived of the opportunity to also ask.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I appreciate your advice that we pay attention when hon. Minsters are rendering ministerial statements. The hon. Member of Parliament may recall that when I was delivering the first ministerial statement, I indicated that the pipeline is huge and that it measures about 900 mm in size. So, it is not one we could shut down to work on at night and switch it on during the day. Secondly, as to whether we consulted the engineers, let me say that in fact, it is the engineers who have been advising us. If the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central would also just engage hon. Members of Parliament from Lusaka province who had gone on a familiarisation tour, he would appreciate that this problem was big. The pipeline we are talking about is not small, and the amount of pressure that goes into it is about 250 m high. So, at that level of pressure, it is not work that you can undertake in piecemeal, where you switch on during the day and in the night you go and switch off.

Madam Speaker, we had to enforce a total shutdown, and our engineers were working day and night. They were working sixteen hours per day. This was indicated in the statement. I think that we are happy that we have completed these works within a very short period.

Madam Speaker, the other major benefit will be that the 20 million litres of water, which were just going to waste, will now come to Lusaka and will be supplied to the consumers.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Let us listen to an engineer.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, the remedial measures of repairing the leakage has taken almost twenty days. The opportunity cost lost, in terms of not supplying water for those days is very high. I am talking about the diseases that have occurred and the treatment in hospitals due to the lack of water supply in the days that the ministry has been working on the leakage.

Madam Speaker, is the option of repairing the leakage the optimal solution compared to creating a by-pass? The ministry could have created a by-pass at the leakage point which would have taken the ministry just one week only because it would have ordered a new pipe. Does the hon. Minister think this solution was optimal compared with the cost of life that was imparted on the people during the period of works?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kaumbwe for his question.

Madam Speaker, we were in a zero-option situation, considering the point where the pipeline passes. I indicated in my initial statement that the pipeline goes over a cliff where two hills meet. To create a by-pass would have meant cutting through the hill. It was going to be more costly. It is not like we are working on flat land; it is deep on a cliff. Further, over tea, the hon. Member can consult the hon. Members of Parliament who visited the site, and they will tell him the challenges that were at hand. However, we have learnt one thing from the design of the Iolanda One Water Treatment Plantand the Iolanda Two Water Treatment Plant in Kafue, and we hope to see an inter-connecter from Kafue Iolanda Water Treatment Plant One to Iolanda Water Treatment Plant Two so that in future, when we have a problem, we can divert the water from one pipeline to the other. So, this problem gave us an opportunity to learn some lessons.

Madam Speaker, what we did was the easiest solution. The reason we had asked for sixty days is that we wanted the maximum period, just in case we had a worst case scenario, but we are happy that we have achieved what we wanted to achieve in less than the initially indicated period.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, has the ministry undertaken inspections on all the water pipelines in Lusaka and on the Copperbelt, so that it can avert further problems? I am just trying to see whether the ministry can be more proactive than reactive.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, wherever we have a water supply network as well as sanitation network, we normally conduct routine inspections and routine maintenance. So, yes, we do conduct inspections in various installations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for his responses. Considering that quite a big proportion of Lusaka residents depend on boreholes, where I stay, which is quite near the ‘Community House’, we do not have piped water. I want to know if the hon. Minister has come up with initiatives to encourage purification systems and reduce the high cost of water. There are so many systems that are being sold. Unfortunately, they are unaffordable, and most of the water that we use is contaminated. We have been forewarned, actually, that there is typhoid because of the number of boreholes that have been drilled. Has the hon. Minister come up with initiatives to reduce the cost of home water purification systems?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, that question is outside my statement, but I will engage the hon. Member over tea, and then we can give him the answer. However, just to say that the Government is concerned about the Chalala area because of the area not having piped water supply, which has forced people to depend on boreholes. Most of those boreholes sit on pieces of land as small as 600 m² on which you have both sanitation facilities and water sources. So, we are working on a project that will assist us, and at an opportune time, will announce the plans of the said project.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MEASURES TO PREVENT FLOODS IN ITEBE WARD

93. Mr Malambo (Magoye) asked the Vice-President what urgent measures the Government is taking to prevent the recurrence of floods in Itebe Ward in Magoye Parliamentary Constituency during the rainy season.

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma)Madam Speaker, in response to the question asked by Hon. Mweemba Malambo, Member of Parliament for Magoye, I wish to inform this august House that the prevention of flooding in low-lying areas, such as Itebe Ward of Magoye Parliamentary Constituency, is impossible because the areas are generally prone to flooding. However, what is possible is to minimise flooding and the impact on the community and the environment.

Madam Speaker, some of the measures that have been undertaken so far to minimise flooding and the impacts thereof are:

de-silting of the Magoye River through the Solidaridad Project, which is being implemented by the District Disaster Management Committee (DDMC) in collaboration with World-Wide Fund (WWF) for nature;

on-going sensitisation and awareness-raising of sand miners, given the contribution of sand mining to siltation of the river, which causes riverine flooding; and

issuance of early-warning advisories each season for people to take precautionary measures when floods are imminent. Precautionary measures may include encouraging people to relocate to higher lands and only returning when the flooding is over.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Malambo: Madam Speaker, Magoye River has no route to pour water into the Kafue River. So, as it approaches the flood plains, it just pours the water into the plains, and that is the reason many of the houses around that area are adversely affected. Is the hon. Minister considering reconstructing the canal into the Kafue River, which was there before? The only problem that came about is the siltation.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I must disappoint the hon. Member of Parliament for Magoye, and say that the Government is not considering constructing a canal as he has suggested.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Siachisumo (Lufwanyama): Madam Speaker, that area is flooded during the rainy season. During the dry season, it is dry. Are there any plans to put some weir dams so that the animals and the community that area can be served during the dry season?

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I think, as the Government, and as the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), especially, we need to go down there and assess and see what else can be done in order to ameliorate the problems that the hon. Member has mentioned. As at now, we take his counsel and will try to do whatever is possible to ensure that persons there, the community, as well as animals are able to access water during the dry season.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Since the Government is talking about water harvesting, would it not be better to start with that area in piloting the plan? That is just my suggestion.

Laughter

Mr Malambo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your intervention. I would like to know from the hon. Minister how soon he thinks he can start sensitising the people to stop sand mining, which has broken river banks, and that is why we have a lot of sand going into the plains and cutting off the water flow.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Member for this question, and your intervention is definitely most welcome. On how soon are we going to sensitise the people, we already started sensitising; it is just a matter of intensifying and continuing with the sensitisation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

WATER SHORTAGE IN PETAUKE CONSTITUENCY

94. Mr J. E.Banda (Petauke Central) asked the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

whether the Government is aware that there is a critical shortage of water in the following wards in Petauke Central Parliamentary Constituency:

Nyika;

(ii) Musubanzi;

(iii) Minga; and

(iv) Chimanyama; and

if so, what urgent measures are being taken to restore normal water supply and avert an outbreak of water-borne diseases in the affected areas.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that there has been a critical shortage of water in the following wards of Petauke Central Parliamentary Constituency:

Nyika;

Musubanzi;

Minga; and

Chimanyama.

Madam Speaker, the following are the urgent measures being undertaken to improve water supply and avert an outbreak of water-borne diseases in the said wards:

extension of the service lines to areas in Nyika Ward, such as Hillside, Chimate, Turnoff and Garden Compound of Petauke; and

continuing with regular maintenance and unblocking of pipes to ensure continuous water supply.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through my ministry, in 2022, allocated thirty boreholes to be drilled in Petauke District based on priority areas identified by the local authority, of which the areas mentioned above benefited as follows:

Ward No. of Boreholes Allocated

Nyika 1

Musubanzi 2

Minga 2

Chimanyama 2

Madam Speaker, the project, once completed, will benefit about 21,250 people in the various communities. Further, in 2023, the ministry earmarked twenty boreholes for rehabilitation and two solar water schemes to be put up in critical areas of the district.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, our Standing Orders always guide us to be factual when –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke Central!

Just ask your supplementary question. Do not start arguing and assessing what the hon. Minister has said. If you are not clear, ask a supplementary question.

Mr J. E. Banda: The hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation mentioned Minga, Musubanzi, Chimanyama and Nyika wards. He also said that Chimanyama Ward was allocated two boreholes. In Chimanyma Ward, we have ninety-eight villages, and those villages do not have water. Only two villages were allocated boreholes for water. That is why the good people of Petauke are asking what immediate measures the ministry is putting in place in the other villages, since they do not have water. There are only two boreholes that were allocated. Under the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we approved five boreholes which, to date, have not been drilled. No one from the Executive has come to launch them. Now, the people –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, are you asking a question or debating? I know, you are the owner of the question, and there is always a reason a question is asked but, in order for the hon. Minister to help you, try to be more specific. Ask a question on what you need clarified.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, what immediate measures is the hon. Minister going to put in place in the remaining villages so that the people can have water? As I speak, they are being strangled. They do not have water.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you know your position in this House; you are the Whip for the Independents. Please, lead by example so that you demonstrate that you have due regard. How does the issue of strangling come in?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I find it very difficult to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for this question because, I think, when hon. Members of Parliament stand in this House to ask the members of the Executive, the idea is that they are seeking solutions to the challenges that their people are facing. However, if we are going to handle things the way the hon. Member of Parliament is doing, it will be very difficult for me to stand here and respond. Questions are supposed to be very serious, but they are being trivialised. I understand that a number of villages are stressed by shortages of water, but I expected that we could be more serious with that.

Madam Speaker, I have indicated in my response the urgent measures that the Government is taking to assist the people of Petauke Central. I think that the hon. Member for Petauke Central should help us as a ministry. You can see that he has improved in speaking English. I am sure, his writing has also improved. So, he must write to us to indicate those problems …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mposha: … then we will respond.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Since it is some acknowledgement of some improvement, I do not know whether to reprimand or not. Let us encourage one another. We are all learning.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I have struggled to understand the nature of the problem. The question says there is a critical shortage of water in the mentioned areas. Now, when we say critical shortage of water, I am trying to understand whether the communities are serviced by water supply lines. If so, then, there should be challenges water utility companies. If the communities are serviced either by a river, boreholes or wells, then, a critical shortage could arise because of the boreholes and rivers drying up. I want to understand. The hon. Minister said what seems to suggest that there is a water system network in the areas mentioned.

Madam Speaker, has the ministry done a comprehensive assessment of the situation in the mentioned areas to ascertain the interventions needed to address the matter fully and the cost of a satisfactory intervention. If it has done that, then, it will be a matter of where we can draw the resources; can the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), the Central Government or partners come in? Has the ministry done that? If so, what is the cost of that assessed intervention?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, it is a mixture of supply systems. For example, in the area I talked about, the turnoff in that area, there is a water supply system under the Eastern Water and Sewerage Company. However, the other areas that the hon. Member of Parliament was talking about in the other wards are typical villages with growth centres. There, we do not have a piped water system. Rather, we drill boreholes. This is why I was outlining various interventions. For example, in the areas where they are faced with water challenges and there is a network provided in Petauke, unfortunately, the nature of the challenge is that there is a serious build-up of calcium on the network. This is why I said that we are undertaking routine maintenance works just to ensure that, in the meantime, there is improved supply of water whereas, in the villages, where we do not have the network, that is where I mentioned that various boreholes were allocated to mitigate the challenge.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, this is a constituency-specific question. So, we should not take too much time on it.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister acknowledged that there is a water crisis in Petauke. Through this House, he has also informed the people of Petauke that last year, the ministry allocated two boreholes and, by so doing, he is acknowledging that there is a crisis of water. What urgent measures is the Government putting in place to mitigate that crisis? I can now acknowledge that the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation has improved in lying because he has lied to the good people of Petauke.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke Central!

Please, resume your seat.

Mr J.E. Banda: He ‘hammered’ me, but no one asked him about it.

Madam Speaker: No, that is not the way to behave, and you call yourself a Whip of the Independent hon. Members? Your role is to help in maintaining the discipline and decorum of the House. Is that what you are doing?

Mr J.E. Banda interjected.

Madam Speaker: You are even responding to me?

Can we have order, please!

REHABILITATION OF MUNDAWANGA ENVIRONMENTAL PARK

95. Mr Hlazo (Chilanga) asked the Minister of Tourism:

whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate Munda Wanga Environmental Park in Chilanga District;
if so, when the project will commence;

what the size of the Park is;

who the owner of the land on which the Park is located is;

whether the Government has received any Public Private Partnership proposals for the management of the park; and
if so, what the Government’s position on the matter is.

Mr Mpundu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is raised on the basis that I asked a question that I feel has not been answered. I asked that question because –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nkana!

That cannot arise as a point of order. Please, familiarise yourself with the Standing Orders.

Can we make progress.

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, the Government has an on-going rehabilitation and maintenance plan for Munda Wanga Botanical Garden.

Madam Speaker, the parcel of land for the park spans 23.2 ha.

Madam Speaker, Munda Wanga Environmental Park is owned by the Government of the Republic of Zambia through the Ministry of Tourism.

Madam Speaker, the Government has received a number of proposals for the management of the park.

Madam Speaker, last but not least, the Government, through the Ministry of Tourism, is in the process of remodeling the management and business concept of Munda Wanga in order to enhance the value of the facility in respect of environmental education, conservation and recreational purposes. In this regard, the ministry is open to partnering with interested parties to rehabilitate the Munda Wanga Zoological Park and Botanical Garden.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hlazo: Madam Speaker, if you went to Munda Wanga on a weekend, you would see how parked that place gets. If you went there on a week day, you would see that there are about two to five buses that ferry students who visit the place. That just shows you that Munda Wanga has a lot of potential. In the past three years, the only work that has been undertaken there by the Government is the construction of an ablution block. Therefore, for it to be brought back to life, what needs to be done is rehabilitation of some of the old buildings, restocking and increasing of staff from the current thirty-three to about seventy-five. What has taken the Government so long to invest in Munda Wanga? In the past three years, we have not seen much.

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilanga for this follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, I do concur with the hon. Member’s response with regards to the number of visitors we get at Munda Wanga despite its current state. However, we, as the Government of the Republic of Zambia, have been methodical in the way we conduct our business. The first thing that we needed to do was ascertain the ownership of the park. Alongside that, we are looking at getting investors into that place, we are also looking at creating value or ascertaining the value of the park. With the reconstituted Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Council that is headed by my seniors here, we have never seen the work that they have been doing in the last few days.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikumba: We have seen the works on the roads, and we are looking at how best they could assist us to find a very good equity partner to develop Munda Wanga. My ministry is on hand to receive as many proposals as it can, and the plans will be shared with the PPP Council. Sooner rather than later, the hon. Member for Chilanga should be able to see progress around the park.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha(Chifubu): Madam Speaker, we have seen an influx of people visiting that wonderful garden. Recently, however, we had an incident in which a lion escaped from the garden. What assurance is the hon. Minister giving the visitors and the nation at large in terms of safety from the dangerous animals?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I guarantee that the safety of our visitors in the national parks and, indeed, at Munda Wanga Botanical Gardens is of our highest priority. I think, the incidents that we have witnessed or rather reported in the last couple of years were purely based on what I would like to call negligence on the part of our keepers. However, that has been dealt with. Most of the enclosures that we have in the park today, for the lack of a better term, are foolproof. We will not have cats or any other animals escape from the cages. I can reassure any visitor to our botanical garden or, indeed, any other national park they will be guided by our trained officers. To comfort our visitors, let me just say that we should not experience what happened not so long ago.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the responses coming from the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, when Munda Wanga was established, Chilanga District was relatively a small community. Now, we have seen a lot of infrastructure development around the botanical garden. I remember that it was last year when an animal went astray and posed some serious danger to the people in the community. Is the hon. Minister considering changing the model, knowing that Chilanga District is not what it used to be in the past?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu for this supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, he has rightly observed that the population around Chilanga has increased. Just to givea bit of some context with regards to the Munda Wanga Botanical Garden, it was purely meant to be a rehabilitation centre for orphaned animals, including elephants and cats. Eventually, we realised that the place itself started becoming inadequate. That is the reason you notice that the next orphanage that we had, which was managed by a department in my ministry, was moved to Lilayi. Fortunately, the Ministry of Tourism, through the Department of National Parks and Wildlife (DNPW) has now found a very good solution. We will now have our rehabilitation centre at the Lusaka National Park, which is 10 km from here.

The Lusaka National Park, Madam Speaker, is what we are going to call a park within the city. That is going to be akin to that which you see in Nairobi today. So, what you see at Munda Wanga is purely for recreational purposes. Like the hon. Member for Chilanga mentioned, we help school-going children to understand botany. Further, for some of us who had an opportunity to be part of the Chongololo Club, that is the place to learn more about wildlife matters. Since we now live in a very technologically advanced era, we should be able to see …

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikumba: … more robust buildings as well as activities happening around that particular place instead of having those big cats, which may pose a threat to people around that area.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda stood with his hand on his waist.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a point of order, pursuant to Standing Order No. 57, which is on speaking in the House.

Madam Speaker, a Member of Parliament will indicate on the Bosch –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke!

We do not have the luxury of time. Please, be precise and raise your point of order. Also, your manner of standing as you raise your point of order leaves much to be desired. Stand like an hon. Member.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you may continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, a Member of Parliament will indicate on the Bosch or Electronic Chamber (e-Chamber) if he or she wants to speak in the House to represent his or her constituency so that the challenges, –

Madam Speaker: What is your point of order? Go to your point of order. Who has breached what? Who stopped you from talking? Just be precise. What is the breach?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the point of order is directed to the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation for not answering the question. The good people of Petauke are, right now, waiting to hear how the challenges of water –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke!

May you resume your seat.

Mr J. E. Banda resumed his seat but roughly switched off his microphone.

Madam Speaker: Please, be careful with those tools as you put them down. They can break, and they are very expensive.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, when you asked your question, you were being argumentative in the manner you asked your question. So, I did not call upon the hon. Minister to answer the question. If you have any complaints, it is against me who did not call on the hon. Minister to answer the question. So, that is what happened. Please, be observant during the proceedings. You will save a lot of time.

The hon. Minister may respond to the hon. Member for – oh, he had just responded.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, the Munda Wanga Environmental Park is one place we should expect the Government to get some money from. Actually, I neighbour the park. The wallfence of the park is adjacent to my House in Chilanga, and it is collapsing. I would like to know why the Government has neglected the park. Is it because of a lack of money? What has happened? Why can the Government not just outsource the park, because it is really in bad shape?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chienge for this supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, I mentioned in my answer that what we have done, as a ministry, is to ascertain the value of the property. We, in the United Party for National Development (UPND), have been very categorical in stating that we look out for partnerships. We do not look for outrights sales. We want to have shared responsibility, and that is the reason I mentioned the PPP Council. Once we have that, all the submissions that we are going to get of expression of interest will be submitted to the PPP Council, which will take the next steps. Now, it will be folly of us to start putting Government money into the park when we know that the plan is to get into equity partnership. We all know what capital equity comes with; more marketing experience and, obviously, it introduces exposure of the Government Treasury, as it were.

Madam Speaker, the minimal infrastructure maintenance that we are carrying out is purely to service the people whom the hon. Member for Chilanga mentioned; the school children and churches. Yes, we are going to work around the conveniences popularly known as ablution blocks. We will also make sure that the gardens are managed properly so that people can actually sit there and read books whilst they are in the park. So, we are not neglecting the park. We are looking at the best possible partner who is going to invest in it and make sure that it gets rightful value.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker:Hon. Member for Chilanga, do you have any other question or are you satisfied?

Mr Hlazo: No, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Let us make progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF THE MPIKA/NABWALYA ROAD

96. Mr Kapyanga (Mpika) askedthe Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

(a) when the construction of the Mpika/NabwalyaRoad in Mpika District will be completed; and

(b) what the cause of the delay in completing the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the completion of the construction of the Mpika/Nabwalya Road in Mpika District will be considered in future work plans once funds for the required works are secured.

Madam Speaker, the delay in completing the project has been due to financial constraints.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I am very sad. For how long will a community of 10,000 people be neglected in the manner that the people of Nabwalya have been neglected? They are being killed by wild animals and dying of hunger –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mpika!

You asked a specific question. Seek clarification relating to the question that you have asked. Do not start debating issues of hunger and of being neglected. Please, just be specific and get to the point.

Mr Kapyanga: Well guided, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

Is the contract for the construction of the Mpika/Nabwalya Road still active?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the works on the Mpika/Nabwalya/Mfuwe Road were awarded to Messrs China Henan International Co-operation Group Company at a sum of K429,962,248, Value Added Tax (VAT) inclusive.

Madam Speaker, the works stalled due to funding challenges, which resulted in the lapsing of the contract.

Madam Speaker, the works on the project will be considered under a new contract in future work plans, subject to the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, there was a question of how long the people are going to continue to suffer. Let me make it very clear that the start date of the contract that lapsed was 3^rd May, 2014, with an initial completion date of 5^th November, 2016. That contract expired on 11^th April, 2022.

Madam Speaker, at the time the contract lapsed, only 20 per cent physical progress had been attained, which amounted to 22 km, and there was only clearing and grabbing, 12.l2 km roadbed preparation and 8.5 km subgrading.

Madam Speaker, we have been talking about over-procurement. The contract for that road and many others that were awarded are examples. As the House may have noticed from the dates that I have given, the contract was given by our predecessors, but they did not fund it fully because, obviously, they did not have the funds. What we are trying to do now – As I have said previously, projects cannot lapse or be cancelled because wherever there is a project, we know that it services a portion of our population.

Madam Speaker, we are managing the over-procurement that took place because without resources, we cannot complete the projects. We are committed to ensuring that the Mpika/Nabwalya Road all the way to Mfuwe is done but, that is subject to the availability of resources because there are so many projects that have lapsed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, apart from passing through one of the oldest and largest game management areas (GMAs), the Mpika/Nabwalya Road is a gateway to the eastern part of Zambia. We have seen that, lately, the hon. Minister has been signing public-private partnership (PPP) projects. Would the Government consider having the road worked on using the PPP model, knowing its potential?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I wish to state that, yes, the Government fully understands that if that road is extended, it will link Muchinga Province to the Eastern Province.

Madam Speaker, there are two routes to the implementation of the PPP projects. The first one is what we call solicited, whereby the Government does a feasibility study and on the basis of that, solicits for bids. Our experience is that the quickest way to implement PPP projects is though unsolicited bids, whereby those who are interested undertake feasibility studies and identify the road or facility they want to be involved in. Where roads like the one in question are involved, we urge hon. Members of Parliament and any interested party to help identify those who may be interested. If the private companies get interested, my ministrywill do everything to facilitate the projecte. However, in terms of linking Muchinga Province to the Eastern Province, the one area we are concentrating on is the one from Matumbo through the Luangwa River and Chama to Lundazi. Again, if that was done,it would link the two provinces and create a shortcut.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: However, if the hon. Member for –

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Eng. Milupi: Indeed, you are right.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu and the hon. Member for Mpika could help us, it would be good. We are one Government together with them. If there are people who may be interested in this, our colleagues should advise them to feel free to come and speak to us and put in unsolicited bids for the road, and we will take it from there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: This is a constituency-specific question. So, the hon. Member for Kankoyo–Firstly, hon. Member for Mpika Constituency, do you have any other question?

Mr Kapyanga: No, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Alright. Since the hon. Member for Mpika is not asking, I will give the last opportunity to the hon. Member for Kankoyo. However, remember, it is about the Mpika/Nabwalya Road.

You may proceed.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, in the last two weeks, I have seen an outbreak of advertisements for roads across the country. One of them is the rehabilitation of a 30 km Batoka Road. I have also seen one on the 250 km Tuta Road being advertised for rebuilding. Many public-private partnerships (PPPs) are being signed, and the next one is the Mufurila/Mukambo Road, which will be signed before the end of next week. So, is the Government considering addingsome funds to that road, even as it advertises, so that the people in Mpika can feel the way the people in Mufulira are feeling right now, knowing that the Government is going to sign the PPP?

Madam Speaker:You are really overstretching this question. Hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, you may respond.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kankoyo.

Madam Speaker, is this not what we meant when we said that Bally would fix it?

Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, that is what we are doing. Indeed, the hon. Members whose constituencies are on that road; Kankoyo, Mufulira, Kantanshi and Chifubu, should ensure we are together in Mufulira on Monday.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I think, we need to move on.

STALLED CONSTRUCTION OF DRUG ENFORCEMENT COMMISSION OFFICES IN KABWE

97. Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

why the construction of the Drug Enforcement Commission offices in Kabwe District has stalled;

when the project will resume;

what the total cost of the project is;

how much money had been paid to the contractor, as of June 2023; and

what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the construction of the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) offices in Kabwe District stalled due to inadequate funds.

Madam Speaker, the project will resume in the first quarter of 2024.

Madam Speaker, the contract sum of the project signed in 2013 was K10,249,875.54. However, the sum is likely to change after the works are re-tendered because of the lapse of time.

Madam Speaker, as of June 2023, the contractor had been paid K5,014,884,05.

The timeframe for completion of the project is six months, Madam Speaker.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, I just want to thank the hon. Minister for informing us that the project will resume in the first quarter of 2024.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. That is a comment.

Hon. Member for Namwala, you may proceed to ask a question.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, may I know how much was paid from the K10 million contract sum of the project?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, maybe, my answer missed the hon. Member for Namwala. The answer to part (d) of the question is that as of June 2023, the contractor had been paid K5,014,884.05, which is roughly 50 per cent of the contract sum.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ZAMBIA POLICE LAND IN MASHULA COMPOUND

98. MrKang’ombe (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

what the Government’s position on the Zambia Police Service land in Mashula Compound in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency, which has been occupied by settlers for over thirty years, is;

whether the Government has any plans to surrender the occupied portion of the land to the settlers;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo) (on behalf ofthe Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Speaker, the Government’s position is that the Zambia Police Service land at Mashula compound in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency belongs to the Zambia Police Service.

The background to this matter is that the land at Kamfinsa was surveyed back in October 2021, and it was discovered that some settlers had illegally occupied it. The records at the ministry indicate that the settlement is known as Mashula South of Kamfinsa Police Camp, which was initially established by workers engaged to construct the infrastructure at Kamfinsa Mobile Unit around 1963.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security has engaged the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, Surveyor-General’s Office, to determine the extent of encroachment. Thereafter, the settlers will be engaged.

Madam Speaker, the Government has no plans whatsoever to surrender the occupied portion of land to the settlers.

Madam Speaker, the Government has no plans of surrendering the occupied portion of the land. Hence no plans to that effect will be implemented.

Madam Speaker, the Government has use for this land as the activities of the police training facility continue to increase.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, may I take this opportunity, first of all, to indicate to the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security that the level of development by the current residents of that area is such that the police would have no use for the land because the land is overrun. There are permanent structures that have been built. For the benefit of the hon. Minister, we have invested quite a lot of money from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in putting up health and education facilities, our people are excited and anticipate that the Government will consider allowing them to have ownership documents.

Madam Speaker, my first follow-up question to the hon. Minister is:Is the ministry considering undertaking a visit, not by the technocrats whom we sent to the site, but by the head of the ministry, to go and appreciate the level of development in the area in question? This is so that as the hon. Minster decides what needs to be done, he will be guided by what he will see.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my principal answer, surveys have been done on that piece of land, and the ministry, including the substantive hon. Minister, are fully aware of the circumstances of the illegal settlement over many decades. So, the issue of the hon. Minister going to have a deeper appreciation of the problem that has been caused by the encroachment is a necessary step to take. However, I cannot commit on his behalf, although, I agree with the idea. There is no contest that the benevolent thing to do is to go and appreciate the problem on the ground. That said, nothing much will change regarding the answer that I have given because this issue is right at the heart of the ministry I run.

Back in the colonial days, planning was done for the cities that would grow and outgrow us. The portions of land that were apportioned to such institutions everywhere, not just in Kamfinsa, were such that there was anticipation of the growth of such institutions. The example I can give to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament, to appreciate my answer is that of the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC). The college was encroached on by political cadres during the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) reign and the encroachment was perfected by the time the Patriotic Front (PF) came. So, the institution has been left without any room for expansion and optimum utilisation for the purpose for which it was established.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha: Madam Speaker, considering the investment that has so far been made in that area, as indicated by the hon. Member of Parliament, some of which has been from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), and the fact that the Government has said that it has no intention of surrendering the land to the settlers, what will happen to the Government infrastructure that has already been built there? Further, is there any intention to compensate the people with alternative land where they can go and settle, since we are a listening Government?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it is not our intention to unsettle the already unsettled community in Kamfinsa. However, the hon. Member of Parliamentwho has asked this question must also flip the coin and determine what would be cheaper between relocating the entire police training college at Kamfinsa with all the existing infrastructure, which was set up a long time ago,and relocating the people who have encroached on that land.

Madam Speaker, without committing the Government to relocation, it must be understood clearly that the people who are living there are doing so illegally. I also want to state that we are in a kind of conundrum because of the attitude of those who governed before us. This stems from the United National Independence Party (UINP) days, the MMD days and the PF days, who made it a policy for Government institutions to not have title deeds. The Kamfinsa land is one such piece of land for which the Zambia Police Service has no title deed, just like the NRDC and the Zambia Institute of Animal Health (ZIAH) in Mazabuka.Right now, what we are trying to do, as a responsible Government, is make sure that such institutions begin to have title deeds to secure such portions of land for future generations.

Madam Speaker, to answer the question more directly, it is not our intention to abandon the members of the community who have illegally settled in Kamfinsa. I am sure that a close engagement with them can help to moot out a solution on how that piece of land can be unencumbered, which generations that are coming after us are going to need.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, once again, I am grateful that the Acting hon. Minister has taken the liberty to respond to some very important aspects of the issue affecting our people. I am a representative of the people of Kamfinsa, hence, my bringing this matter to the attention of the hon. Minister. For the record, I have taken the liberty to write the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I have also attempted to engage various departments of the ministry to make sufficient progress on this matter. Unfortunately, we are not making the right progress.

Madam Speaker, my second follow-up question to the Acting hon. Minister is: In his response, he helped this conversation by indicating when the settlement development started, which was in 1963. That Zambia Police Service facility has existed since Independence. So, those are not new settlers. We have had new settlers and old ones. Those people have stayed at that facility for many years. Even as we conclude the conversation on this matter, what message is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa taking to the settlers regarding their welfare? As I go back to the constituency at the weekend, what message am I taking?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, on a lighter note, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa can go back to Kitwe and say to the people, “This is one of the most important things I should have done for you when I was Mayor of Kitwe. I forgot to deal with this matter and, now, it is very close to my heart”.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Take this as a lighter moment. I am sure, my colleague or friend understands my sense of humour.

Madam Speaker: However, on the issue of colleague and friend, I had earlier guided that we refer to one another using our constituency names so that we are more formal. There has been a tendency for people to call others brother or colleague in a derogatory manner. That is why I said that we should address one another using the constituencies.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Nkombo: Yes.

Madam Speaker, as my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, goes back, he should tell our dear people whom he represents that this responsible Government does not intend to unsettle them any time soon. However, they must bear in mind that much as they have settled there for as long as four decades, that piece of land is required. As a responsible Government, we must work together to find an alternative place for them to settle.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the questionon the Government installation that has been put up, my colleague should understand that the Zambia Police Service is under the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security while the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is under the Ministry–

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

I thought we would finish before going on the health break.

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was responding to the question asked by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on whether I should go ahead and provide the last bit of my answer, considering that the hon. Member who asked the question is not in his seat.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may proceed.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I was terminating my answer by saying that this problem in Kamfinsa has been there and that it was ignored by six successive Presidents, from the First Republic up to the sixth President. Now, the people of Kamfinsa must know that they are under a responsible Government that is going to make their status more certain than ever before. As I said, we are in the process of acquiring a title deed for the piece of land, and that is not to say that we are going to abandon the people. They must be looked after, and the Government is going find a solution because that is one of the primary responsibilities of any government; to ensure that its citizens are settled.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think, the slots for the hon. Member for Kamfinsa were covered, and this is a constituency-based question. So, we shall make progress.

MOTION

BUDGET 2024

(Debate resumed)

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate the 2024 Budget Speech that was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, …

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Mr Michelo: … under the theme –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

There seems to be some arguments.

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Clerks-at-the-Table, do we have the records?

Madam First Deputy Speakerconversed with the Clerks-at-the-Table.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, I am advised by the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) Department that the hon. Member for Bweengwa has not yet debated the Budget Speech. Let us not confuse the President’s Speech and the Budget Speech.

Mr Chikote: Yes!

Mr Sing’ombe:Muyopa cani?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you may continue.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your kind response and advice to some hon. Members who usually do not follow the proceedings properly. You know that mental capacity is a challenge in this country.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Bweengwa!

Please, just go straight into the debate without wasting time.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate the Budget Speech that was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning here, in this House.

Mr Chitotela interjected.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, this Budget is very inspiring to the people of Zambia and, in particular, to the people of Bweengwa because the Monze/Niko Road, which we are excited about, is going to be worked on. In the same Budget –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

There is an indication for a point of order. However, just to guide the House, the debates have to flow because people are listening. If we keep interjecting, the people who are listening to us, including us, will not get much of what is being said. So, let us reduce on the points of order so that the debates can flow.

Hon. Member for Pambashe, what is your point of order?

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to apologise to my brother, the hon. Member for Bweengwa Constituency, for disturbing the flow of his thought.

Madam Speaker, I have been in this Parliament for a long time. This is my thirteenth year. Hon. Ministers who are appointed by the President carry and fly the flag for and on behalf of the Zambian people. They must be bearers of the unification of the country around the ten provinces. When I saw an article in the Daily Nation Newspaper attributed to the hon. Minister of Education, I first rushed to the Committee on Education, Science and Technology, and I listened to the verbatim, which was broadcast live on Parliament Radio. The people of Luapula are deeply annoyed, frustrated and in anguish for being referred to by our Government, particularly an hon. Minister of the State who draws a salary from the money that we contribute in taxes, and I quote, – I have the recording. I went to download it. It is here (reading from his phone) –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Chitotela: Let me just finish, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes.

Hon. Member, because we are following the Standing Orders, the incident you are talking about happened yesterday.

Mr Chitotela: Yes, in Parliament.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, in Parliament, but it happened yesterday. So, according to the Standing Orders, if the incident has already passed, you have to use another method of dealing with that issue. In this case, you are supposed to write a complaint and address it to the Office of the Hon. Speaker because that is a matter from yesterday. It is important, but let us follow the Standing Orders.

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you may continue.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I was saying that this Budget is very inspiring. Look at how Zambia has become a construction site, including in Patriotic Front (PF) strongholds. Every person is excited, especially those who voted for us.In this House, we are very excited about this Budget because of the Free Education Policy that the Government has introduced.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is that currently, there is money for the people who voted for us in our constituencies. There is the Women and Youth Empowerment Fund. People are excited, as they no longer pay school fees for their children. The children are going to school free of charge.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is on desks, which were not there previously. Almost 40 per cent to 60 per cent of our children, especially in rural areas sat on the floor. However, because of the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF),our pupils now sit on desks. This is a very significant milestone.

Madam Speaker, the President and his Government, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, has increased the CDF from K28.3 million to K30.6 million. This is a huge achievement. We never used to see all these things under the previous regime. The people of Zambia, right now, are very happy. They are excited about the Budget because money is now going into the rural areas, which were neglected. The previous Government only concentrated on developing areas like Lusaka forgetting that Zambia is big and that people in the rural areas also need development.

Mr E. Tembo: Question!

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, the other issue isthat of mealie meal. Quite alright, I understand that the challenge is real, and that it needs urgent attention. There are many factors that have led to the increase in the price of mealie meal. For instance, farmers had stopped growing enough maize. However, the moment the President realised that farmers had completely moved away from the production of maize, he increased the price of a 50 kg bag of maize just to motivate them to produce more maize. The pressure that we as a country have from our neighbouring countries is too much. Zambia is under a lot of pressure in terms of demand for maize. Almost every country in the Southern African region wants maize from Zambia.

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about the health sector. Most of the hon. Members of Parliament have built a number of clinics in their constituencies and, because of that, our people in all the constituencies are very happy.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of road infrastructure, the hon. Minister talked about the Lusaka/NdolaDual Carriageway, on which works have already commenced. Further, the Kasumbalesa Road is at 70 per cent. The others are the Lumwana to Kambimba Road, the Katete/Chanida Road, the Sakanya/Makumbi Road and theMonze/Niko Road. This Government, under the 2024 Budget,is going to construct about 4,000 km of roads, which is very good. This same Budget is going to fund the construction of all the provincial airports. However, some of our friends are saying that it has not brought anything. A certain individual on the Floor of this House said that this Budget is stinking. Imagine! So, I wonder who is stinking between the Budget and the person who was debating yesterday.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Bweengwa!

I think, that word was disqualified yesterday. Let us not use it.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, when we hear some people say,“alebwelelapo”, we really get scared because we imagine that if some people happen to bwelelapo, meaning, if somebody returns, there will be no more free education in this country.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Whatever you are discussing, please, justlink it to these two documents; the Budget Speech and the Annual Borrowing Plan. Try as much as possible to link your debate to these documents.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, it is very much related because if we allowed alebwelelapo, we would not achieve all these things that I have mentioned.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, let us take note of whatever is being said so that we can rebut when it is our turn to debate. If we keep on interjecting, we will not be fair to the people who are watching. It is like, now, there is a battle between the two sides of the House. We are forgetting about our people out there, who are trying, as much as possible, to listen to the Budget debate.

I will allow the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central to raise his point of order. He was the first one, I have just been telling him to hold on.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am raising this matter on the decorum of the House.

Hon. J. E. Banda resumed his seat.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you may continue. Just cite the Standing Order that has been breached.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 204.

The people from my constituency are just from communicating with me, during tea break.

Laughter

MrJ.E. Banda: Tea break.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us give him a chance.

You may continue, hon. Member. Let us not waste time. Hon. Member, are you ready to raise the point of order?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the people in my constituency are very worried. They have communicated with me and asked me about the decorum of the House. They said that they always hear the Presiding Officers reminding hon. Members of Parliament on the need to maintain the decorum of the House. However, they heard the Presiding Officer call out hon. Members of Parliament and even say, “You are even calling yourself an hon. Member of Parliament”. What if the hon. Member of Parliament answers back and says to the Presiding Officer, ‘You are even calling yourself a Presiding Officer’? There will be chaos.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Resume your seat.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your point of order is really not focused. I cannot really get what you are trying to bring out. However, I want to remind you that you are a Whip in this House. You are the one who is supposed to assist the Presiding Officers to maintain the decorum of the House. If you have an issue with a Presiding Officer, I think, you know the ways of tackling such issues. You can, in fact, visit the offices of the Presiding Officers. The way you have brought out this issue is too general. So, I cannot follow. Hon. Member, can you help the Presiding Officers to maintain the decorum of the House as a Whip. That is your duty.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I think, Zambia is blessed because this time around, it has a visionary leader; a leader who has taken development to all parts of the country, ended violence and brought sanity in this country. We have a leader who is going develop Zambia and fight extra hard to bring down the price of mealie meal. He is also a leader who always tells this country that he has a vision and that one day, we will be okay. He is not a leader who says he has no vision for Zambia. He is not one who does not say much when he is asked what he will do for Zambia. We have a leader who does not say nalitumpa ine. He is not the kind of leader uwatumpa nor muyanga na uzima. He is a leader –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Bweengwa!

The official language here is English. When you use any other language, please, it is your duty to interpret so that we understand what you are talking about.

Rev. Katuta: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before you continue, there is the last point of order from the hon. Member for Chienge.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, the point of order I am raising is based on Standing Order No. 65(1)(b), which provides that:

“A member who is debating shall ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Bweengwa, who is on the Floor of the House, in order to continue debating using the language that he is using, presenting information that is not factual and completely veering off the Budget Speech?

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

My guidance remains the same: the official language here is English. If you use any other language, it is your responsibility to interpret what you say so that we are able to understand you.

I have stopped the points of order now. So, please, let us try to be responsible enough to stick to the Standing Orders as we debate so that the people out there can follow. Allow the debates to flow. There are so many interjections. You can rebut when your time comes to debate. Let us also be mindful of the unparliamentary words and their interpretation, and observe the Standing Orders.

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you can wind up your debate.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I was trying to say that we are lucky that we now have a visionary leader, one who has never insulted himself by saying that, “nalitumpa”. Rather, he is a leader who is very intelligent. “Nalitumpa” means ‘I am stupid’. We have a leader who is not stupid. This is what I wanted to say.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing the good people of Roan Constituency to add their voice to the debate on the Budget that was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I will be very candid, honest, sincere and objective as I debate on this Budget.

Madam Speaker, I will go straight to paragraph 3 of the speech, where the hon. Minister says:

“Since coming into office just two years ago, our administration has achieved excellent progress in changing the social and economic landscape of our country.”

Madam Speaker, I will jump to paragraph 5, where the hon. Minister says:

“In the social sector, we have provided free education.”

Madam Speaker, the people of Roan Constituency say thank you very much to the New Dawn Government for having built that 1x3 classroom block in the Chisokone area where, since Independence, our children, as young as two years, were trekking a distance of 5 km to school in Kawama. The People of Mpata Hill, that is 15 km from Mapatamatu Township, are happy that within my tenure in office, we have managed, through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), to build a 1x2 classroom block, provided with solar electricity , and today, the children are no longer walking that distance.

Madam Speaker, the people of Mansansa West are also glad that a school has been taken closer to them. All this has happened because of the social changes where the New Dawn Government promised to provide free education. We know that when something is offered free of charge, you expect a rush in. In this case, parents withdrew their children from fee-paying schools and took them to Government institutions, meaning that the spaces in the Government schools became limited. Therefore, it is just important that we thank the Government for having built those schools, and for having streamlined the teacher-pupil ratio. Whereby pupils are now in schools near where they sit on desks. It is just fair to appreciate when someone does something good.

Madam Speaker, let me go to another sector that the hon. Minister mentioned in his speech. On page 6, he talks about economic transformation and job creation. As Member of Parliament for Roan, I expected the hon. Minister to mention one thing here. We have been hit below the belt economically several times, whereby the mines were closed, time and again. I am on record on the Floor of this House appealing to the good Government to reopen Shaft No. 28.

Madam Speaker, as a Member of Parliament for Roan, I am happy that the Government has sought investment worth US$600 million to be pumped into Shaft No. 28 or Luanshya Copper Mines. This entails that the job creation that the hon. Minister was talking about is going to be a reality. Let me hasten to say that as the job openings come to the fore, my plea to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is that they consider the local people first. The Government should ask the investors to give priority to the local people insofar as jobs are concerned. We are not saying that the investors cannot come with their own expertise. What we want is for those people who are skilled, unskilled or semi-skilled to be given jobs.

Madam Speaker, it is worth saying thank you very much that in Luanshya, Roan Constituency was given US$600 million. Luanshya is going to change economically. People are going to have money in their pockets, and we only hope that this is not a story. Rather, it should come to fruition.

Madam Speaker, some quarters of society have said so many things about the CDF. As I said in my earlier remarks, I want to be open and as candid as possible. I want to be honest. All the projects that were proposed in my constituency have been funded. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development said to me that if we wanted our projects to be funded, we needed to make sure that there was no money in the account. He also said that if the account was found to have money, then, there would not be any new funding. Therefore, if a constituency exhausted all the money, then, it could go to the hon. Minister’s office and request for funding, and it would definitely be given the money. In Roan Constituency, we are very proactive. As I speak, we are implementing the 2024 projects. All the twenty-six projects for 2023 that we had outlined have been funded and children are getting school bursaries. So, we can only wish and pray that the current spirit continues.

Madam Speaker, I am aware that some people may always want to be so negative, but I want to be honest, and I will continue being honest. As the Member of Parliament for Roan, I know that things are changing in the constituency. I hope, that by 2026, things would have changed, and that will make my coming back to Parliament very easy because I will be able to point somewhere and say that I built that school or bridge through the CDF.

Madam Speaker, I cannot say more than I already have. All I can say to the Government is thank you very much for the schools and feeder roads that you have given us, and thank you very much for everything. However, I want to conclude by saying that it is a fact that the President said here that the cost of living is high and that the situation is difficult, and he promised to work on it. What is wrong with us giving him time to work on it? As Roan Constituency, we are saying that out of ten, he has scored eight. Let us give him chance to score on petrol and mealie meal. Then, we will be happy persons.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

As we debate, hon. Members, let us try as much as possible to be factual. When we are talking about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), let us follow the guidelines that fall under the CDF which, I am sure, you all know.

The hon. Member for Chama North may take the Floor.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for according the people of Chama North this opportunity, through me, to debate the Budget that was presented to this august House.

Madam Speaker, before I proceed with my debate, I think, it is important that we interrogate the past so that we are able to build the future. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, in the 2023 National Budget, set macroeconomic objectives that he wanted his Government to achieve. In the Budget, he proposed to achieve a 4 per cent Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth, limit inflation to between 6 per cent and 8 per cent, and achieve a fiscal deficit of not more than 7.7 per cent. What is the reality on the ground? The macroeconomic objectives that were outlined in the 2023 Budget were not achieved.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Can we have order, especially where there is the hon. Member for Nkana. Your voices are too loud. You are seated next to the hon. Member debating. So, kindly lower your voice or voices, since you are the three of you.

The hon. Member for Chama North may continue.

Mr Mtayachalo: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that the macroeconomic objectives that were set in the 2023 National Budget were not achieved. As the Budget states, only 2.7 per cent of GDP, inflation at 12 per cent and fiscal deficit at 5.8 per cent were achieved. In 2024, the hon. Minister has set to achieve 4.8 per cent GDP growth and inflation of between 6 per cent and 8 per cent. I feel that this is unlikely to be achieved. What sectors are going to drive growth? Almost all economic sectors; mining, agriculture and energy are having challenges.

Madam Speaker, in the Budget Speech, on page 5, the hon. Minister said:

“Madam Speaker, to unlock Zambia’s economic potential, we must address the constraints facing the economy, especially in the mining, energy, manufacturing and agriculture sectors. These include low production and productivity, low diversification and industrialisation, low private sector investment, low access to affordable finance and low citizen participation.”

Madam Speaker, how does the private sector participate in growing this economy when the Central Bank has increased the monetary policy rate and the statutory reserve ratio? It will be very difficult for the private sector to flourish in such kind of an economy.

Madam Speaker, I go to agriculture.

I come from a constituency which is agriculture-driven. The majority of our people in rural areas are involved in agricultural activities. It is a fact that 3.6 million Zambians are small-scale farmers, but how are our small-scale farmers performing? Look at the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). When the Patriotic Front (PF) came into Government, it found that there were about 700,000 beneficiaries under FISP, but, raised the figure to more than 1 million beneficiaries. That was an effective tool for fighting poverty and safeguarding food security.

Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, unfortunately, has maintained the same number of beneficiarie, at 1,024,000. At the same time, it has encouraged people to form more co-operatives. So, it means that even in 2024, people will be sharing fertiliser in tumeda. So, this is a serious matter. We must realise that small-scale farmers grow a lot of food for our country. So, I expected the Government to, at least, increase the number of beneficiaries so that we are able to safeguard food security.

The high cost of mealie meal, Madam Speaker, should not be underplayed. Last time, I said that the majority of Zambians were no longer able to buy a bag of mealie meal. I also said that on the Copperbelt, some people had told me that they were buying mealie meal on lay-by. Lay-by means that people are not able to buy mealie meal at a go. So, they will pay K50 today and, maybe, the following day, they pay a K100. That is the situation we are in as a country. My appeal to this Government is that it brings the price of mealie meal down to manageable levels.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of the credit window, people have been asking us about it in the constituencies. I am a member of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. So, I know that the Government will impose strict measures for people to access this credit window, which means that the credit window is a preserve of the elite people. The majority of our small-scale farmers will not be able to access it.

Madam Speaker, I want to talk about the energy sector, which plays a very critical role in Zambia’s economic development. I have not seen any corresponding investment in the sector to increase power generation in this country, especially given that we want to attain production of 3 million metric tonnes of copper annually by 2030.

Madam Speaker, in the Budget, the hon. Minister talked about private sector investment in power generation. Let us be very careful. Even the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government rode on the same platform of bringing in private sector investment in power generation, but the investors did not come. It is important that the Government continues to invest in power generation. The PF Government developed the Kafue Gorge Lower (KGL) Hydropower Project with an installed generation capacity of 750 MW, one of the major power generation investments in more than forty-six years. That is why, today, we are talking about ending load-shedding. I wonder when people say that was reckless investment. Surely, can investing US$ 2 billion in the KGL Project be reckless borrowing? I think, it is important that this Government continues to invest in power generation. Ethiopia is building one of the largest hydro power dams on the entire African Continent. The Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam (GERD) will be the seventh largest power project in the entire world. So, I feel that the Government must continue to play a leading role in power generation.

On Zambian workers, Madam Speaker, I think, there is nothing in this Budget for them. The workers have sacrificed for this country. The increase in the Pay As You Earn (PAYE) exemption threshold from K4,800 to K5,100 is a mockery to workers, looking at the high cost of living they are being subjected to. The workers of this country have been sacrificing since Independence. I think, it is important that the workers of this country are respected and given what rightly belongs to them. Workers sacrificed during the MMD Government during the wage freeze, and they have continued to sacrifice. Why should they continue to sacrifice when there is no allocation in the Budget to promote their interest? The PF increased salaries by more than 200 per cent when it came into Government.

With those remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add two or three sentences to this very important debate on the Motion that is on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, allow me to look at the education sector this evening. It shows on the face of everyone that the allocation of K27.5 billion to the education sector is unprecedented and historic. When you look at the Zambian history, you will see that this is the first time ever that the Government of this Republic has done such an act. It is very important that, today, we all take it that the allocation of this amount was done because the New Dawn Government takes education seriously and that education is actually the engine of development for any country.

Madam Speaker, the allocation speaks volumes. This is a sign that for the New Dawn Government, free education is here to stay for the people of Zambia. It is also a sign that we will continue enjoying this facility for as long as this New Dawn Government continues being at the helm of the governance of this country.

Madam Speaker, it is important that I talk about the School Feeding Programme of that the New Dawn Government. We have seen the allocation to the programme increased from K37 million to K111 million. This is a programme that will enable our children who used to walk or still walk 5km or more to access primary education to have a meal every day. The allocation has been increased to not only provide quality food, but to also ensure that the programme covers a couple of schools within the State.

Madam Speaker, there is also the issue of grants. It is actually prima facie that, now, the grants are not only given to schools, but also given to them on time. Consequently, the school authorities are now able to meet the needs of the schools. The grants will motivate our teachers in that they will able to attend meetings or attend to other demands.

Madam Speaker, it is also important to indicate that the skills that were forgotten about previously have been revived. Parents in our constituencies are now able to send their children for skills training. Just this year alone, Namwala Constituency, which I represent, was able to send about 687 learners for skills training using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). What this means now is that even those who did not get an education because, maybe, they lost their parents and did not have anyone else to take them to school can now acquire a skill. Similarly, it is an opportunity for those who did not see the importance of education when they were growing up and those who dropped out to learn. All this is being done because of the increased CDF allocation. When they get skills training, they will either be employed or start their own businesses. This is what we have always been looking for.

Madam Speaker, further, because of the CDF and the feeding programmes, the number of learners being enrolled in schools, particularly in my constituency, has increased. Last week, through the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) in Namwala, we witnessed an increase in enrolment from 31,000 pupils to 45,000. This is because the CDF enables people to be in school without having to pay anything. Like I said earlier, everyone is benefitting from the national cake in the New Dawn Government.

Madam Speaker, it is also important to realise that the New Dawn Government has increased the budgetary allocation to the education sector because it wants to ensure that more teachers are employed, which means that the teacher-pupil ratio will now be reasonable. That will lead to increased interaction between teachers and learners and it will greatly motivate the learners. This is important.

Madam Speaker, let me also indicate that with increased enrolment of pupils in schools and the changes taking place in the education sector, such as the increased CDF amount, which is being used to put learners through skills development, it will be imperative to construct more schools and equip them with more desks. From the time the New Dawn Government took over, we have got assurances on the availability of money.

Madam Speaker, decentralisation is another issue that has always been talked about. Now, the people in our respective constituencies, through the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) and the Constituency Development Committees (CDC), are able to choose what projects are implemented. In the education sector, there are areas in some constituencies, particularly in my constituency, where pupils were having lessons under the trees. However, the increased allocation to the education sector makes us happy because we will now be able to construct more schools. Our children will have lessons in a very conducive atmosphere, which we lacked before.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, I sincerely wish to thank you for this opportunity to air the views of the people of Kafulafuta on the Budget Speech.

To start with, Madam Speaker, the people of Kafulafuta are in full support of this Budget Speech ...

Mr Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa: ... and are very excited about it because it coheres with the 2021 and 2022 Budgets.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kafulafuta are also delighted to know that the borrowing rate in this year’s Budget has reduced. We also note that most of the borrowing will be done locally. That will make us avoid borrowing in United States Dollars. So, we are very delighted. Furthermore, we are very excited, as people of Kafulafuta, to have noticed that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has recognised the fact that we need to create jobs for the youth. We see this as a very positive move for us as the people of Kafulafuta looking at the fact that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been a game-changer for us.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa: The CDF has totally transformed Kafulafuta. As the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said in his speech, what has been accomplished is good enough for a whole five-year term. I will give you examples. So far, we have implemented thirty-one projects, some of which are just about to be completed. This year, the Provincial hon. Minister will have a hard time commissioning projects because before the year ends, there will be many projects to be commissioned.

Madam Speaker, the people of Kafulafuta have hope, and that has to do with the CDF. As the hon. Minister endeavours to create employment for the youths, our wish is that the young people we have trained, those who have acquired skills from different training centres, will be given priority to access the projects. The thinking is that as they go into school, we take all their names, addresses and other details so that immediately they graduate, they find classrooms waiting to be constructed.

Madam Speaker, my rough estimation is that a 1x3 classroom block may take ten young people to construct. If we multiply that by thirty-one, we are talking about almost 300 young people who would access the CDF and get employed. They will get some capital, which is going to kick-start their lives. It is our sincere hope that we will do that so that we silence everybody from the huge number of unemployed by them.

Madam Speaker, we are also looking at the supply of desks. We have many young people who have graduated from trades training schools who could have easily been given contracts to make desks for our schools. We also have other young people who graduated after doing tailoring and designing courses whom we could have given contracts to make unforms for the many pupils who are now enrolled in schools in their locations. So, we see that overall, if we had done what needed to be done, the situation would have been different. So, we are very hopeful that as we progress, we are going to take note of the youths who are graduating from skills training centres so that we cut down on the need for employment.

Madam Speaker, I cannot end without addressing the issue of mealie meal. My clock wound back and I noticed that during the Kaunda days, in the days of the United National Independence Party (UNIP), mealie meal was still an issue and those of us who were there knew that the UNIP Government came up with coupons that were used to obtain mealie meal. When the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) came into power, I know that we came from a background of essential commodities being very difficult to access. People may not have noticed a huge difference as long as they had the mealie meal. Equally, when the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, we know that at some point, farmers complained. I have relations who are farmers. They complained about the low price of maize.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa: I think, that must have been in 2019 or 2020. The floor price for maize was very low, which meant that the price of mealie meal, overall, was going to be low. Now, we know that farming is a business like any other business. Farmers need to make a profit from whatever they do. So, it is just logical that they are given a good deal. I think, we have to stand together, forget about our political affiliations and deal with this matter of mealie meal because our people do not eat politics. We need to stand up and boldly tell people the truth because the price of mealie meal will never come down.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa: Madam Speaker,I am not saying this flippantly or in a source manner. I am saying this with an honest heart. What we need to encourage our people to do is begin to get plots. Though living in town, they can go and cultivate a piece of land where they can produce something for their home consumption.

Madam Speaker, my time is up. I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have a list from the PF (Patriotic Front) Whip. On my list there is the hon. Member for Chama North, who has already debated, the hon. Members for Mfuwe, Chembe, Chawama, Milanzi and Kantanshi in that order. I will be alternating to include the Independent hon. Members.

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, I will not join the Judas Iscariots …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mabonga: … of our Zambian people who when our people are suffering and going through many challenges, can even come here –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Let us not bring in the Bible. There is no Judas here. Just go straight to debating the Budget Speech.

You may continue.

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, it is surprising that even before we approve the Budget for 2024, some hon. Members are busy talking about Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects that they are already implementing. I wonder how it is possible that today, we are here discussing the Budget, but and some hon. Members are already implementing CDF projects.

Hon. UPND Members: Oh!

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, another hon. Member alluded to the fact that the rate of borrowing has reduced when last year, according to the Annual Borrowing Plan, the Government borrowed K78 billion. This year, the Government has proposed to borrow K83 billion. I thought I must mention that before I go into my own debate and re-emphasise that I will not join the people who will praise where we need to advise the Government to do the right thing so that our people can stop suffering. Enough is enough.

Madam Speaker, this year’s Budget, for me, it is already a flop.

Ms Sefulo: Question!

Ms Mabonga: It is a flop because it shows that even when people are complaining about the high cost of living and high mealie meal prices, there is no budget line showing that those issues will be addressed. So, that is already a flop for me. There are indicators that economic growth will drop to 2.7 per cent from 5.2 per cent. So, when we are talking to the Government and want to improve things, I do not know what magic the Government is going to use for us to see to it that come next year, our people will stop complaining even about basics such as mealie meal prices, fuel and those things that have increased in price.

Madam Speaker, the Budget Speech indicates that the inflation rate will drop. Currently, inflation is at 12.2 per cent. Even in terms of the theme, “Unlocking Economic Potential” and, I am thinking, what magic is the Government going to use?

Ms Sefulo: Baby girl!

Laughter

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, we have a disaster in waiting.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is no baby girl here.

Ms Mabonga: The hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment came to the Floor of this House and spoke about a disaster in waiting. I have not seen anything in the Budget that will address that issue. Are we waiting for that disaster to happen for us to come and start looking for money and running around? Is this not the time that we are supposed to budget for such things so that we can alleviate the suffering our people?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I am sorry to interrupt. Please, be mindful that the specifics of the Budget are contained in the Yellow Book, which will come later. Just bear that in mind as you debate. You will not see everything in the Budget Speech.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

I am aware of that fact. I am just referring to some of the sentiments that are contained in the Budget Speech.

Madam Speaker, I do not know why, as Zambians, we think like this because we cannot come up with a theme, “Unlocking Economic Potential” when there is nothing that we have put in the Budget or activities that will unlock the potential.

Mr Mabeta: Question!

Ms Mabonga: We know for a fact that our economic potential, as a country, lies in the mining and the agricultural sectors. We cannot talk about technology because we are far much behind. What have we done? What is there to unlock in our Budget? What economic potential is the Government talking about? We are just wondering. Are we just going to speak for the sake of speaking? I want to advise the United Party for National Development (UNPD) Government to stop politicking, especially to us, the youth because it feels bad at the end of the day.

Madam Speaker, this is the UPNDs third Budget. In the first Budget, there were promissory notes on things that were going to happen. What has the Government done for the young people? What is in the 2024 Budget for the young people? We will continue suffering. Come next year, it will be the same. So, I get worried when I see very big words and I hear that the Government is empowering young people because when we go on the ground, what we find is that there is no empowerment for young people.

Madam Speaker, even the CDF is a raw deal for new districts, such as Lavushimanda.

Hon, UPND Government: Question!

Ms Mabonga: It is a raw deal because in Lavushimanda, we had a road project that was cancelled by the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. We begged for that road. People in my constituency need roads, power and communication towers because they are . not connected. Is there anything for us in Lavushimanda, in particular? We have been cut off in the 2024 Budget. The Government cancelled road works worth K81 million, yet it wants us to be praising it over the CDF. It has also failed to construct a road worth over K150 million. When the Government gives us K30 million, it wants us to come and praise it, and I find that very difficult to do. I cannot stand here and praise the Government when it has cancelled road works that people depended on. That is an economic road whose works the Government cancelled, but the Government wants me to come here and praise it. What am I praising? Should I come here and say that the projects for 2023 have been implemented when there is no money? We are still waiting for Government funding.

Madam Speaker, this Budget is a flop.

Ms Sefulo: Question!

Ms Mabonga: It is a flop, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, we expected the Budget to address serious issues that our people are currently going through. There are so many challenges at the moment and most of them are attributed to the high cost of living. What has the Government done on the issue of fuel? It will come and lie to us that it has managed to reduce inflation to 9 per cent. What does that translate into for the people? It is nothing at the end of the day. This is why people are getting frustrated, including the hon. Members on your right.

Interruptions

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, usually, we are told that when we are debating, we must be able to provide solutions.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, avoid debating other hon. Members. Just focus on the Budget Speech without dragging other hon. Members into your debate.

You may continue.

Ms Mabonga: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am well guided.

Madam Speaker, we have the Ministry of Agriculture, quite alright but, I think, for the lack of a better term, we must start calling it ‘Ministry of Fertiliser Input Support Programme and Livestock’.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

I did not get that, hon. Member.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The voices are too loud. I am missing out on what the hon. Member is saying. Sometimes,the hon. Member might use unparliamentary words but, if the voices are too loud, I will not get what she is saying. So, let us maintain silence so that we can hear what the hon. Member is trying to say on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Member, you said something about the Ministry of Agriculture that I missed.

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, I was saying that we should stop calling it ‘Ministry of Agriculture’. Instead, it should be called ‘Ministry of FISP’, for one simple reason.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Ms Mabonga: Madam Speaker, when we look at the Budget, we see that it is all about FISP, yet we are talking about unlocking economic potential in this country. With FISP, money will just go to the farmers and that is it. So, what have we done, as a country, and what have we planned for so that come 2024, we should, at least, see some improvement or change?

Madam Speaker, we were told that we should be providing solutions, and the solution that I want to provide to the Government is for it to go back to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) because our people are suffering on the ground. The cost of living is unbearable. So, the Government should goback to the IMF and renegotiate the conditions so that we reduce the cost of fuel.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: Order!

This time around, I will give the Floor to another lady from the right, and that is the hon. Member for Chikankata.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: Then the hon. Member for Shangombo will debate.

Mrs Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this very important Motion.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I would like to support this por-poor Budget. Only a person who wants free things will say that this Budget is not pro-poor. I want to say that there are no free things in this world. If someone is giving you something free of charge, just know that there is something behind the free things.

Madam Speaker, the theme for the 2024 Budget is “Unlocking Economic Potential.”

In the land of plenty, this country is still called poor. I do not –

Interruptions

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Just give me a minute. Let us not call one another names. We are all hon. Members in this House. Hon. Members seated next to the hon. Member for Mfuwe, please, respect all hon. Members in this House. They are all hon. Members elected by the people of Zambia.

You may continue, hon. Member for Chikankata.

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. However, they cannot intimidate me.

Madam Speaker, in the land of plenty, this country is still called poor. In this country, we have vast lands, fresh water bodies and hardworking people, but we did not have a leadership that was able to identify the potential of this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: However, under the New Dawn Government, we have a team that has identified this potential. This is the reason it came up with the Theme which is, “Unlocking Economic Potential” for the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chikankata have benefited from the New Dawn Government. I read the Budget Speech, and I would like to thank the person we came up with the cover page of this booklet. One can tell what is contained therein just by looking at the pictures. My debate will be in line with the picture on the cover page.

Madam Speaker, on the cover page of the Budget Speech booklet, we can see young people in uniforms. This is a symbol of education. In that Budget Speech, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning talked about continuing to construct stalled secondary schools and many others schools in this country. This means that this Government understands that education is an equalizer.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: When you give someone knowledge, you give them an opportunity to open up the horizon of ideas for them to know what they want and what they can do.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, we have a skills training programme under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). When we send our children for skills training using the CDF, it is a vicious cyclewhen they come back. We also have grants under the CDF and, as hon. Members of Parliament, next year, we should change the strategy. The students we are sending for skills training should be empowered with grants and we should build workshops in which we will equip them with tools. For instance, those being trained in carpentry can be given tools so that they start workshops. They will start working on their own and they will empower their fellow young people. That is what we call job creation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, we do not need a statement in the Budget Speech telling us how many people are going be employed. It is the activities outlined in the 2024 Budget that will create employment.

Madam Speaker, on the cover of the 2024 Budget Speech booklet, there is a picture of the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, on a tractor. What does that mean? It means that in the 2024 Budget, we are going to implement the Comprehensive Agricultural Transformation and Support Programme (CATSP), which has a set of incentives. For example, we will have access to finance, extension services and irrigation equipment. What this means is that on one side, we will have the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), which targets the vulnerable people and deals with food security at the household level. On the other hand, we will have the CATSP, which will be dealing with farmers at a higher level; those involved in it.

Mr Anakoka: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, when we talk about mass production, we are talking about creating employment for the people who will be involved in massive crop production. Consequently, the country will have enough food, be able to export the surplus and get foreign exchange (Forex).

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Your voices are too loud. Let us give the hon. Member the chance to debate in a conducive environment.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker:Order, hon. Member for Mwandi!

May you, please, go back to your seat.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: May you go back to your seat. Thank you.

The hon. Member for Chikankata will continue.

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, earlier, I said that we are going to have two programmes running parallel. We will have FISP to deal with food security at the household level. We will also have the CATSP, which will be targeted at agriculture at a higher level, where we will have mass production. This will help this country to develop because when we have mass production, there will be job creation. People will be employed and we will have surplus that we will export as a country, and bring in FOREX to add value to the economy of this country. That is what we call development.

Madam Speaker, on the back page of the Budget Speech booklet, there is a picture of graders. That is to do with the public-private partnerships (PPPs). The Government has entered into PPP agreements. We are going to construct roads, and a good road network is very important to the development of a country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, where there is a good road, there is development, and every person would want to drive on a good road to see what is at the end of it. As the drive, they will identify the potential of that community.

Madam Speaker, as the people of Chikankata, at the moment, we are struggling to develop because we have bad roads. However, under the New Dawn Government, we have been given an opportunity under the World Bank’s Improved Rural Connectivity Project (IRCP). The Government is going to work on the Chikankata/Kasamu Road. That is a very strategic road in Chikankata. Those who have never been to Chikankata may not know that the larger part of the population of Chikankata is near the mission hospital. Additionally, because the road is bad, we do not have a bank or filling station.

Hon. Opposition Member: Use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF)!

Mrs Sabao: However, with the opportunity under the New Dawn Government–

We cannot use the CDF. The road has already been given to a contractor under the World Bank’s IRCP because we have a working Government. The people of Chikankata are proud of this Government because it is a listening Government. This Government wants to share the national cake equally. So, the only person who would criticise this Budget is someone who wants free things. There is no longer tantameni. There is no longer a system of asking people to queue up. What we need to do, as the leaders of this country, is encourage our people to work hard. For any country that has developed, its people worked hard.

Madam Speaker, when we talk of being a pro-poor Government, we are looking at the increment in the allocation to social protection programmes. This year’s allocation to is K9.7 billion, with an allocation of K4.1 billion to the Social Cash Transfer Programme, meaning that we are taking care of the vulnerable people in our society. So, what would you want, other than this? What we just need to do now is to work hard. The vulnerable people have been taken care of by the Government. The able-bodied should stand up and work hard instead of waiting for free things.

Thehon. Member’s time expired.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mrs Sabao: Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support this Budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Madam Speaker, I am going to start by saying that this Budget needs a lot of work and leaves much to be desired. I am going to focus on the increased allocation to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Opposition Member: Tamumfwa na icisungu!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The Patriotic Front (PF) Whip, let us give her the chance to debate.

Interjections

Madam First Deputy Speaker:Order, hon. Members!

As long as the people of Chawama can get her, it is alright.

You may continue, hon. Member for Chawama.

Ms Lungu: Madam Speaker, thank you for your protection.

Madam Speaker, as I was saying, this Budget needs a lot of work. I am going to focus on a few points, starting with the increased allocation to the CDF. The increase from K28.3 million to K30.6 is much appreciated. However, when we look at the value for money, we see that last year, around this time, US$1 was equal to K19. So, when you divide K28.3 by K19, it gives you US$1.5 million. So, this year, we have K30.6 million. When we divide that by K21.39, we only get US$1.4 million.

Mr Chibombwe: Masholi!

Ms Lungu: So, when we compare the amounts, we realise that we have less value for money this time around.

Madam First Deputy Speaker:Order!

Who is shouting? There is an hon. Member who shouted “masholi!”

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, it was louder from your side, hon. Member. I am talking to you, hon. Member for Bahati.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Can we, please, have order. There are no thieves in this House. There are only hon. Members. Let us not spoil our name. When members of the public call us thieves, do not blame them because we are busy shouting “thieve!, “thieves!”. There are no thieves in this House. Give room to the hon. Member for Chawama to debate. Her people are listening. Give her the chance.

Hon. Member for Chawama, you may continue.

Ms Lungu: Madam Speaker, when we look at the prices of commodities, we see that commodities are much more expensive than they were last year. For mealie meal, three households inChawama have to put money together to buy one bag.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Ms Lungu: So, when we look at the prices of commodities, once again, even with regard to the projects, we see that we are getting less value for money.

Madam Speaker, the other point I want to bring out is that there is so much focus on the increased CDF allocation which, I must say, is great. If line ministries were allocated the funds that they are used to getting, – whatever project we bring and follow up in this House, we are pointed to the CDF. Should I mention that this fund is about 5 per cent of the Budget? So, where does the 95 per cent that is left go? Why do we not fund the ministries so that they focus on capital projects?

Madam Speaker, I will look at the drainage system in Chawama. We need to work on it because it costs us well over K12 million, at the moment but, if we look at the CDF allocation for 2023, we will see that we have only been given less than K6 million. We cannot work with that money to build the drainages that the people so desperately need, and that is a flood-prone area. So, we are getting way less than the K6 million because, already, the Government has told us how to spend the allocation. We were told to buy desks which, once again, we appreciate very much, but then there are also skills training, empowerment grants and loans, and some of that K6 million has gone to those areas. That leaves us with little money yet, at the same time, that is all that we talk about. We need to be honest and help the hon. Minister. In all honesty, the ministries have not been funded the way they need to be. Look at the Ministry of Health, there is a crisis there.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Ms Lungu: Madam Speaker, I want to go to the next area, which is decentralisation. I am going to use the example of desks. We were told to buy 1 million desks and, once again, it is commendable, but for those desks we were told to buy, there is no capacity within the council. The Lusaka City Council (LCC) has seven constituencies that it has to work with, and the officers are not specialised. If we are going to decentralise and be successful at it, governance needs to go down from the Central Government to the provinces, districts and on downwards. That is where the expertise is. The expertise is not in the council. In Chawama, this year alone, we were provided with some desks in February, but the desks are already breaking down because in the procurement processes, once again, the expertise is in the Ministry of Education, not in the council. So, we will move a Motion to help the Government, because we have to work together in this House. What we need to do is make sure that we are successful together …

Ms Sefulo: Hear, hear!

Ms Lungu: … we are one branch of the Government, be we hon. Members on the left or the ones on the right. What must happen is that most of the responsibilities, for instance, the procurement of desks, should be in the constituency’s budget, but it has to go back to the Ministry of Education. Only then can we be successful.

Madam Speaker, council employees already have their work cut out for them. They were employed specifically for assignments within the council, not to come to the CDF and start working. Council officers cannot monitor projects. So, we need people who can do that. If, for instance, we were building a courthouse, we would need people from the Ministry of justice to come in with the expertise they already have. If we continue with council employees doing everything and handling that 5 per cent of the Budget, we will not make progress. We will find at the end of the day, that some of the money will be wasted.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ah, wapwisha?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kabwe Central, to debate the Motion of Supply.

Madam Speaker, before I go into my debate, allow me to rebut a point made by the hon. Member for Mfuwe, who said that economic growth had been pegged at 2.7 per cent for 2024. May I correct her and say that the 2.7 per cent is a projection for 2023, and it was a comparison to 2022. There is no figure for economic growth for 2024. I thought I should correct that.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, allow me to saythat I support the Budget 100 per cent. In this Budget, there is a proposal to increase the allocation for councils, and the emoluments for councillors is also mentioned. This House approved the proposal the emoluments for councillors should be improved. However, I am surprised to hear people say that the Budget is not good and describing it as rubbish. Does it mean that we do not support the increment of the emoluments for Councillors? This is a question that Councillors should ask.

Madam Speaker, the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a testimony to the Government’s intention to make sure that money goes to our people. It is evidence that the Government has a heart for its people.

Madam Speaker, in Kabwe Central Constituency, last week, we were given about K5.3 million. With the increased CDF, it means that next year, we will be given more, and the figure might be K7 million. That money will empower our people.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us not debate while seated. Let us not disturb the hon. Member who is on the Floor. Give her the chance. We want to listen to her debate.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, before I was distracted, I was saying that next year, we will see an increase in terms of the empowerment of our people.

Madam Speaker, I heard earlier from the debates by my hon. Colleagues on your left that this Budget does not support small and medium enterprises (SMEs). Are the people we are giving the grants not SMEs? Those are SMEs. Even under the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, there is money allocated for SMEs. In agriculture, under the Farmer Input Support Program (FISP), the beneficiaries are SMEs. So, this is a pro-poor Budget, as my hon. Colleagues said. It will support people in our constituencies at the grassroots level. So,I support it.

Madam Speaker, I also heard our hon. Colleagues lament that they are not getting the CDF for 2023. Section 4(1)(2) of the CDF Guidelines states that subsequent quarterly disbursements of the CDF shall be based on the expenditure returns. Once that is done, then the funds are released. In Kabwe Central Constituency, we exhausted all the money because we have running projects. We know that the CDF is working. So, we requested for more last year, and we were given an extra K5 million. So, anyone is free to finish their money and they will be given more. We were told to use our money immediately and that before the end of the year, we would be given more once we submitted expenditure returns. So, the money is there but, it is up to us to use it. In any case, why do we want to have money in our accounts that we do not use? Do we not know that the money is needed to buy medicines and that it can be used for the roads that our colleagues are crying for? You cannot claim money that you are not using. Do you just want to heap it in your accounts? That money is needed somewhere else. So, once you use the money, more will be given to you.

Madam Speaker, Kabwe is an agricultural town, and we are happy to know that this Budget has come up with a sustainable way of improving agriculture, the Comprehensive Agricultural Transformation and Support Programme (CATSP). The programme is going to cater for those who are not going to benefit from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). There is no need for us, as leaders, to encourage our people to be sharing the packs that they have received. There are packages for everyone. Why are our colleagues insinuating that the conditions are going to be difficult before they even see them? Our colleagues are discouraging our people and promoting hunger in our country by giving wrong information. They are putting poison in the heads of our people. Our colleagues must, instead, encourage the people because the package is coming. We want to increase production.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I think, the use of the word poison might be interpreted wrongly. Can you use another word because if you say that your colleagues are giving people poison, it means something else to other people.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, they are creating a negative perception of something that is meant to be good.

Madam Speaker, let me now talk about industrialisation. Our Government has said that it wants to unlock the economy. What does that mean? I have also heard some people say that we are encouraging investors. We need foreign investment in this country because when foreigners come to invest in our country, they bring in foreign exchange (FOREX). When we have a lot of money in forex, our Kwacha is going to gain strength and we will have many industries that are going to employ our people. In this Budget Speech, the hon. Minister has talked about the electric vehicle battery project and the motorcycle assembly plant. I am very happy that in Kabwe, we will have a solar milling plant. How I wish that the motorcycle assembly can also be done in Kabwe. I would be very grateful if that was done.

Madam Speaker, let me now come to roads, in particular, the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway. In Kabwe, we are going to see 30 km of a bituminous road, which we have not seen for a long time. The people of Kabwe are very happy that apart from the bituminous road they are going to see, employment will also be created. Further, our people will benefit from the sub-contracting component of the project.

Madam Speaker, this Budget is very important and good because it has provided for the employment of teachers and health workers. If one is rubbishing it, it means one is an enemy of our youths because these are people who want jobs to make ends meet. Unlike what we saw in the past, where there was an employment freeze and we were not seeing the numbers that we are seeing now in the United Party for National Development (UPND), this time, we are very happy that there is continuity in terms of employing our youths.

Madam Speaker, before I end, allow me to say that the Zambian people liberated themselves from slavery, and now they are on the right trajectory or right road to the promised land. As leaders, it is our duty to not blind them or make them deaf so that they do not hear the right information that will make them develop themselves. If we do that, posterity will judge us harshly. Sometimes, we tend to say that something is wrong even when we know that it is not. So, as leaders, let us love our people and make sure that they participate in the affairs of this country. We should not deny them access to what rightfully belongs to them.

We, the people of Kabwe Central support this Budget fully.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, many voices have been heard on the Budget for 2024 through hon. Members of this House. They have spoken about the standard of living which, according to them, is not okay. Some hon. Members have spoken about how the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) is not doing fine, et cetera.

Madam Speaker, responsiveness is one of the tenetsof good governance. The way one responds to the issues that are being echoed by the people who are being governed is very important.

Madam Speaker, as regards the financing of the Budget, there is domestic financing and external financing. When we analyse all the figures in the Budget, we see that everything is pointing to borrowing. The world order is now changing. We need to bring in issues that will make our Budget self-sustaining. I might add that this is self-inflicting because we have a lot of natural resources that are underutilised. We have a lot of mineral deposits, such as sugilite, which is found in my constituency, Chembe. We also have lithium in Mapatizya, and gold in Mpika and many other areas. However, all those resources are not utilised to the point at which Budget becomes self-sustaining. The mining sector is the key to propelling self-financing, but we have not done much to achieve that.

Madam Speaker, look at the entire borrowing plan. I do not know why we, who are the governors, like dollars so much. In the borrowing plan, I cannot see anywhere where there is a plan for borrowing in terms of technology that has to do with machinery. For example, in the mining sector, there is Muombe area with minerals which is in my constituency. Why not put up a borrowing plan that has to do with machinery and start a mine? That mine will one, bring job creation, and two, increase the tax base. This will trickle down to poverty reduction. At the same time, the same mine will be able to pay back that debt. I do not know why we like dollars so much. That is why in certain jurisdictions, they are calling for the removal of this dollar issue.

Madam Speaker, let me go to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF needs to be recast. What do I mean? We need to say, for example, that education, health, and water and sanitation are the sectors that are going to be financed by the CDF. The way it is now, when Chama North complains about human-animal conflict, the Government says the area Member of Parliament should use the CDF to solve that problem. When there is another complaint, the Government says that the CDF should be used.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mpundu: Can we recast the CDF accordingly.

Madam Speaker, I do not want to waste a lot of time. When we talk of employment, from the first Budget in 2021 to the 2022 and the 2023 one, all the focus in terms of employment has been on the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Education. How about in Chembe, where there are many youths who have studied agriculture? Where are they going to go? Time is running out; they are ageing. There is an age limit in terms of employment in the Civil Service. So, we need to cluster this employment issue with other avenues like the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, where the hon. Minister talks of environmental sustainability, yet he does not even have forest guards in the ministry. These are issues that we need to look at if Zambia is to move forward.

Madam Speaker, lastly, it is important to understand that economic growth cannot be used as a measure of development. Even if we say that we are going to score this much in terms of economic growth, if that economic growth is achieved at the expense of human life, then, it is questionable. That is why even experts in development only look at three things when it comes to development. If the standard of living of the people is improving and the life expectancy of the people is also improving, that economic growth points to positive indicators of the much-needed development.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, because the people of Chembe are not stingy with time, I end here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, I think, the Budget Speech is a quantitative document. So, I will dwell much on figures, based on what the hon. Minister has proposed.

Madam Speaker, when an hon. Minister comes to Parliament, he is here to express intent or the plan on what the Government intends to do.

Hon. Members: Time up.

Mr Mabeta: So, we need to continue to compare–

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

It is not yet time up. I will announce when it is time up.

Hon. Member for Kankoyo, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Mabeta: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, for us to appreciate where we are going, it is always important to know where we are coming from. When the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came to Parliament, he informed us that in 2024, the Government intends to spend K177 billion.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at1841 hours until0900 hours on Friday, 13^thOctober, 2023.

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