Wednesday, 4th October, 2023

Wednesday, 4^th October, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER FOR PAMABSHE, ON MR KABUSWE, HON. MINISTER OF MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT, ON TWO TRUCKS IMPOUNDED WITH SUGILITE

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am raising this matter directed at the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Speaker, last year I raised a similar matter, but this is a new incident. I think, as the people of Luapula, we are losing patience, and we feel we are being neglected.

Madam Speaker, this morning, the police impounded two trucks of sugilite, …

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: … which is believed to have been mined in Milenge District near a village called Bututu.

As we speak, Madam Speaker, there are names of individuals, purported to belong to a political party, who are deeply involved. This is a serious matter that is dealing with the economy of this country and Luapula Province, in particular. We have been graded as the poorest province in the Republic of Zambia. The President gave a direction, but the hon. Minister does not seem to carry out the President’s directive. Individuals are busy benefiting by carrying out illegal mining activities in Luapula Province. They are blasting and stealing sugilite without the Government taking a firm position that is going to send a signal that it is serious. This is a strategic mineral –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is the matter now?

Mr Chitotela: Is the hon. Minister responsible for mines and mineral development in order to not give a Government position on the mining of sugilite in Luapula Province to curb the illegal activities that are going on? Today, as we are speak, two trucks have been impounded, and names from a named political party are said to be behind that mining.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. Much as that matter is urgent, it does not fall under matters of urgent public importance …

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … because it does not need urgent attention. No catastrophe will result if it is not attended to urgently.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

I advise the hon. Member to raise, maybe, an urgent question because that matter does not qualify to fall under matters of urgent public importance. There is no life that will be lost if this matter is not dealt with. So, hon. Member, you are advised accordingly.

MR J.E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON MR MPOSHA, HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, ON CHALLENGE OF WATER IN PETAUKE CENTRAL

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central the opportunity, this afternoon, to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, the matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the good people of Petauke Central, in Nyika, Musumbazi, Minga and Chilimanyama wards, have a very serious crisis of water. As we are speak, people are queuing just to access water in the ‘chikala’.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can you translate the word ‘chikala’, please.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker. ‘Chikala’ means a well.

Madam Speaker, people in my constituency are queuing like they are queuing for fuel or, maybe, for unga, which is not good.

Is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to be sitting, to be incompetent –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr J. E. Banda: To be incompetent –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, I think we have the Standing Orders, here, that guide you on how to raise these matters. You do not have to accuse the hon. Minister of being incompetent.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Petauke Central, are you listening? Please, let us follow our Standing Orders, without necessarily involving other hon. Members seated peacefully in their seats.

Can you please wind up your matter of urgent public importance.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your good guidance. I am sure it is because of the way I am feeling right now. Seeing my people suffering is not good.

Is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to sit there quietly? He promised the good people of Petauke Central that in 2023, he would provide a dam, but –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. I think we got the gist of your matter of urgent public importance.

You may resume your seat, hon. Member.

Mr J. E. Banda (pointing at the hon. Minister).

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, we are in an august House. The people are watching you even as you are pointing fingers. I do not know whether it is cousinship, but people do not even know that.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes. So, for the sake of our viewers, can we please maintain decorum.

The hon. Member for Petauke Central, this seems to be an old problem. I remember, way back, the same matter was brought to this House. So, the hon. Member is advised to find other avenues to bring this problem to an end. Find a suitable avenue even to engage the hon. Minister because this is an old problem.

Mr J. E. Banda: But that failed, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, do you want to be with us for the rest of this day in the House? Let us maintain order. We move on.

The hon. Member for Chama South may raise his matter.

Mr Kapyanga: Animal-human conflict.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Thank you. We have a prophet from Mpika, Madam Speaker. The prophet from Mpika is correct.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, we, the people of Chama South, are very worried. I want to tell you that two weeks ago, I visited Chama. You could have heard that an hon. Member had been killed by an elephant. The situation is really out of hand. Just yesterday, we lost two lives. In Chama North, an old lady, together with other women, went to gather firewood. An elephant charged at them and killed one person; sixty-year-old Judith Tumbe. In Chama South, youths went to draw water. As a boy lowered his bucket, a hippo attacked him cutting off his head. This was a Grade 6 boy from Chama South Constituency, in Vilimukulu Ward, Kanga area.

Madam Speaker, we have been bringing this issue on the Floor of the House. I know the hon. Minister of Tourism as an action-oriented man. Is he in order to enjoy a very good air conditioner that you are providing, and sit there quietly, when our lives are in danger? When Hon. Mtayachalo and I visit the constituency, by 1400 hours, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just wind up your matter.

Mr Mung’andu: No. It is about how serious it is.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No. I have heard that it is very serious. We have lost lives. Yes.

Mr Mung’andu: We need to abandon meetings by 1300 hours because if we go beyond that, our people will lose their lives to elephants and many other animals.

How best can we resolve this problem, Madam Speaker? As much as we appreciate wildlife, God created us to be supreme over wild animals.

I seek your serious ruling before Hon. Mtayachalo and I start crying in this Parliament.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. Truly, this matter has been coming over and over. It is not the first time that we are hearing about it. Maybe, the hon. Minister of Tourism can comment on that. I do not know what his comments are over the same.

Hon. Minister of Tourism, do you need time to go and prepare? I do not know whether you want to comment now.

Mr Sikumba indicated assent.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead, hon. Minister.

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to quickly respond to that matter of urgent public importance raised by my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Chama South.

Madam Speaker, it is agreed that the concern has been raised by a number of my fellow hon. Colleagues in here. I wish to report that one of the grave reports we got, not so long ago, was that we lost two lives in Livingstone, and one person is still hospitalised. Quickly, within the Ministry of Tourism, we put together a rapid response team that has been going around the city to educate the community as well as making sure that some of the animals that are leaving the park and going into the communities are taken back into the parks.

Madam Speaker, you will agree with me that law enforcement is an expensive venture. We would like to use what we are doing in Livingstone, today, which is obviously a three-day programme, to be replicated in problem areas such as Chama North, Chama South and, indeed, other areas. We are now reactivating the existing Honorary Wildlife Police Officers (HWPOs) across the country. We are also talking to our hon. Colleagues, Members of Parliament, who have been enlisted in that aspect to see how best we can ensure that the animals are kept in check.

Madam Speaker, in as much as we sympathise with those who have lost people, it is also very disheartening to learn that in certain areas, people insist on going to rivers or lakes that are hippo or crocodile infested. We all know that they go to the rivers to, sometimes, fetch water. So, I encourage my hon. Colleagues, Members of Parliament, to, please, sink as many boreholes as they possibly can away from these rivers. Please, use your Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to sink boreholes so that people in our communities desist from going to the rivers and the lakes.

I have noted with concern, Madam Speaker, that in places such as Luangwa, the Luangwa River, which houses the largest population of hippos in the world today, is one area where we find our boys and girls swimming instead of going to school.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much. Since we had the ministerial statement not long ago, I am going to allow a few hon. Members to ask questions.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the point of order on the hon. Minister?

Mr Kafwaya: Yes.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, we are fortunate that the hon. Minister speaking is also a Member of Parliament. One cannot be a minister if he/she is not an hon. Member of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister knows very well that there is a way in which the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is applied. The people who direct how the CDF is used are those in the Ward Development Committees (WDCs).

Madam Speaker, is he in order to pit us against our people, so that they begin to see us as people who have the power to direct how the CDF is applied, when, in fact, he knows that it is the WDCs that direct the application of the CDF?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Well, I think that for the sake of progress, I am going to make a ruling after investigating this matter. I will come back to the House with a ruling at a later date.

Let us make progress.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I want to convey my heartfelt condolences, of course, to the two families in Chama North and Chama South.

Madam Speaker, I have listened to the response from the hon. Minister. The people of Chama North and Chama South have been asking for action. We are now entering a very dangerous season. Mangos are almost getting ripe, and elephants are now leaving the places they are at to come and eat mangoes in villages. What immediate action is the hon. Minister taking to avert the continued loss of lives?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that follow-up question. I think, to just give comfort to the people of Chama North and Chama South, and my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament here, my ministry will urgently put together a team similar to the one it has sent to the Southern Province, in Livingstone, to mitigate the problem. If you could only give me no more that fourteen days to do that, I should be able to get a team there, averting the risk of having to cut down all the mango trees in the constituency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung'andu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is urging people to not be drawing water from the rivers that are crocodile infested. I would like to inform him that in the area called Kanga, we have drilled more than ten boreholes, but we cannot find water. We have engaged the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, and he can confirm that it is an area we are proposing to put up a dam so that the people can draw water from a naturally constructed dam. I would like to invite the hon. Minister to Chama South Constituency. We cannot just be talking from without, here, because I know that you constituted a Committee of hon. Members of Parliament to go on the ground. However, because of the lack of resources, this exercise has not been undertaken.

Madam Speaker, it is important that the Executive makes money available for the exercise so that you appreciate what people are going through. I request that there be an oversight wing of the Government. My final question to the hon. Minister is: How often or how soon is he likely to constitute these teams? Are they going to be permanent teams? I would like to tell the hon. Minister that it is 14 hours and in some villages, people are already in their houses, and they cannot come out. In Chama South, they do not even know what a vegetable looks like.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is the question?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, are these teams going to be permanent in almost all the villages or is it just one team that, at the end of the day, will be ineffective.

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thought I was very clear with the response I gave earlier. However, we will constitute a team specifically for the two constituencies within the fourteen-day period. The hon. Member’s rider question as regards to whether these teams are going to be permanent or, indeed, just ad hoc. The whole idea is that those teams that we take there are purely two-fold. The first reason is law enforcement to curb poachers and the second reason is community sensitisation. We have been talking about how to co-exist with these animals and that is exactly what the team is doing. Some people within those communities may not know how to handle these wild animals, but the very fact that the team will be there, expert advice will be given to them. We would actually find that a three-day or sixty-day operation might change the landscape on how we live with those animals.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The questions are almost similar to the questions that were asked during the ministerial statement. I will take the last two questions from the hon. Member for Bangweulu and the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, this issue has now become endemic. It comes up almost every month or every two weeks. The hon. Minister has just told this House that he is going to constitute a team. In my opinion, the best intervention is to train the local people because they stay there day in, day out. Does the minister have any immediate plans to train the local people to ensure that these accidents do not recur?

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, rightly said, we do have a local need for training and most of these problem areas have designated community resource boards that are, actually, patroned by the respective chiefs and that is our pool of resources that we have. Should we require additional staff, indeed, the staff within the Department of National Parks and Wildlife is readily available to assist with any form of training that will go towards managing the human-wildlife conflict.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I am not so sure about co-existence especially after what happened in the Garden of Eden.

Laughter

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, lives are being lost, and this is also the situation even in Kanchibiya Constituency. What can the Government do to move us from the notion, which most of people believe in, that we value animal life more than human life? What can be done to ensure that we keep wildlife out of areas with high human population or areas with agriculture density? I think, for me, that is the solution; keeping animals away from areas with high human population or high agriculture density.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. I think that was a comment.

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, like you rightly mentioned, I have been on the Floor of the House trying to respond to the many queries that we are getting from hon. Members of Parliament. I think, the myth that exists that as a ministry and as a department we take good care of animals that we do human beings should be demystified because it is not correct. What is important is making sure that the communities themselves understand the real value of the wild life that they are living with. My team from the Community Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM) is undertaking that. Only until that is achieved will the community actually get to understand that we can co-exist with animals.

Madam Speaker, for a very long time, communities have been robbed of that natural resource that they had. That is the reason you saw an impasse between my ministry and those who for long time were enjoying the fruits of having to use these animals for their selfish needs. We in the Ministry of Tourism put a stop to it and, as the Government, we ensured that communities now get the real benefits. It is only a matter of time before communities realise the good things that the United Party for National Development (UPND) led Government will bring to them as a way of having them to enjoy their natural resource endowment that they forgo due what has been happening over a period of time.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. There is one hon. Member who is supposed to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

The hon. Member for Mpika, you may go ahead.

MR KAPAYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES, MR MUCHIMA ON THE STATUS OF CHIEF MUKUNGULE’S CHIEFDOM

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance, of course, in according with Standing Order No. 134.

Madam Speaker, there is what is supposed to be Mupamadzi Farming Block in Mpika Constituency. Part of the farming block falls under Chief Mukungule of the Bisa-speaking people, where I come from. However, the chief has been informed by the people who have gotten part of the farms within the farming block that his entire chiefdom, including some communities such as Kaluba, Chobela, and Chiyaba, and his palace are part of the farming block. As I speak, people are agitated. I direct this matter of urgent public importance at the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources to update the nation and the people of Mpika District the status of Chief Mukungule’s chiefdom. Currently, people even want to attack the owners of the farming blocks, especially that there is one who has even developed his/her farm and people want to rise against that person.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious indulgence.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, from the way you were describing that matter, it is not a new occurrence, especially that you said somebody has even developed his/her property. So, I would urge you to, maybe, find another way of bringing that matter to the House because it is not a recent occurrence.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

SITUATION OF ZAMBIAN STUDENTS IN MOROCCO AFTER THE RECENT EARTHQUAKE

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Mr Kakubo): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving us this opportunity to address the House, and the nation at large, on a matter that was raised by my hon. Colleague, Mr J. Chibuye, Member of Parliament for Roan, on the situation of Zambian students studying in Morocco after the recent earthquake.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us give a chance to the hon. Minister to give the ministerial statement.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that following the devastating earthquake that occurred in Morocco, the Government, through our mission in Morocco, has been following the happenings since that disaster.

Madam Speaker, the quake of a magnitude of 6.8 was experienced in the high regions of the mountains in Al Haouz, 80 km from the tourist capital of Marrakech. Although the earthquake was felt across the whole Kingdom of Morocco, it was reported that only six nearby provinces were acutely affected.

Madam Speaker, the official death figures, nationwide, had reached 2,900 by Tuesday, 12^th September, 2023. Over 5,500 injuries were also registered, making it one of the most devastating natural disasters in the history of the Kingdom of Morocco. For safety purposes, many people in nearby regions spent several nights sleeping outside their homes as a precaution.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to report to the House that the population of Zambians in Morocco is mainly made up of students. During 2023, we had about 314 Zambian students registered with our mission in Morocco.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to indicate that the earthquake occurred during the period of the summer holidays for university students. Therefore, this meant that several students were away from the area that was affected by the quakes. It is also estimated that around 282 students were in Morocco at the time, while others had travelled for holidays. Indications and all report are that no Zambian was affected.

Madam Speaker, it must further be noted that on the morning after the earthquake, the Zambian embassy in Rabat, in conjunction with the Zambian Students’ Association (ZASAM), made immediate efforts to account for all our nationals’ well-being using the students’ body, amongst other structures, in all towns where we had representatives. I, therefore, wish to inform the House that all town representatives in Morocco indicated that all Zambians were secure; none had died, and no property has been damaged.

Madam Speaker, Marrakech, which is the nearest city to the earthquake’s epicentre, has nineteen Zambian students who live there. Therefore, we made urgent efforts to quickly reach them and to assure their safety.

Madam Speaker, we wish to thank God for sparing all the lives of our nationals and the lives of our diplomats who are working in Morocco, serving our interests.

Madam Speaker, the Government of Zambia has already joined other members of the international community in conveying condolences and solidarity to His Majesty King Mohammed VI and the Government of Morocco as well as the people of Morocco. We take note and commend their efforts in mobilising resources to support their nationals.

Madam Speaker, I wish to end by reiterating that Zambia is in solidarity with the Moroccans as it goes through this difficult period and, once more, just to register our thanks to God for ensuring that none of our nationals has died nor had their properties affected in this terrible natural disaster.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the statement from the hon. Minister, but like you heard our reactions, we have had so many expectations in terms of being updated as the House on a number of things, such as China, unga and so on and so forth. These are issues which are really meaningful to us and we want to see whether we are getting value for the money spent on travels.

Madam Speaker, what arrangement is there, bilaterally, between the Republic of Zambia and Morocco in terms of student scholarships and how sustainable is this? Further, how many students do we have currently in Morocco? Can the hon. Minister give us the statistics.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, if you may allow me to mention that the preamble to the question highlights issues to do with ministerial statements on China and the United Nations General Assembly.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has been in this House long enough and I am sure he knows, deep within himself, that statements are given on dates that are determined by the National Assembly of Zambia. So, if the hon. Member can be patient for the date that has been allocated is soon coming.

Hon. PF Members: When?

Mr Kakubo: It is not for me to announce when that statement will be done. Madam Speaker will call upon my ministry and myself to come and make that statement at the appropriate time.

Madam Speaker, going straight to the question that was asked by the hon. Member, just for emphasis, I will mention that we have 327 students in Morocco. To save Parliament time, I would be happy to arrange, if you allow, to for us to distribute the list of the number of students per city that we have in Morocco. However, if you allow me, I will run through the list, which is as follows:

City No. of students

Agadir 25

Al Hoceima 9

Casablanca 32

Dakhla 2

El Jadida 8

Fes 55

Kenitra 35

Laayoune 6

Marrakech 19

Meknes 23

Mohammedia 14

Oujda 17

Rabat 30

Settat 22

Tanger 19

Tetouan 11

Total 327

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I was not given an opportunity earlier. However, I wanted to raise a point of order on the Minister of Tourism. I want to know why he left out Feira on his Committee. Additionally, he did not give a sufficient answer to the issue of human/animal conflict. That issue –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member we passed that stage a long time.

Mr E. Tembo: I want to seek assisted from your office, whether I could raise that point of order now. In the last two months, twenty have died in my constituency and others are injured.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, much as your point is important. However we have an order paper that we are following.

Mr E. Tembo: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are not even supposed to go backwards, but are supposed to follow the laid down procedure. So, your question does not carry water.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker we thank God there were no fatalities from the earthquake in Morocco. However, I am just wondering why –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 (1)(b). I apologise to my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member for Lukashya for disturbing his line of thought.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. I am privileged to be part of your House Keeping Committees; the Standing Orders Committee and the House Business Committee, which schedules Business to be transacted in this august House. Is he in order to misinform this august House and the nation that it is our responsibility to plan for updates for him to make in this august House when it is squarely the responsibility of his ministry.

I seek your serious guidance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you for that point of order. The content of that point of order is not even part of the ministerial statement that was given to the House. That is the problem with these preambles. They get reactions from the other side. It is a very important point. However, there is a way of bringing it to this House instead of combining it with the matter that is being discussed on the Floor. Moreover, ministerial statements are approved by Her Honour the Vice-President and the Speaker. So, I urge the hon. Member to, please, stick to the order paper. If we have issues that we want to bring up specifically to the ministers, let us find a better way of bringing them up instead of combining them with other issues that are being discussed on the Floor. So, hon. Members, I think I have guided. We make progress.

The hon. Member who was on the Floor before the point of order was raised can continue.

Mr Chisanga: Madam Speaker, I was saying that we are grateful that there were no fatalities when this event took place. However, I was just wondering why it has taken this long for the hon. Minister to come with a statement to the House.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, it has not necessarily taken us long. When you have disaster to the magnitude that Morocco experienced, we also needed time to establish and account for everyone. So, that is why it has taken us this long. However, we wanted to give a comprehensive report to the House. That is why you have seen that we have statistics of where everyone is. When there is a disaster like that, finding people is not an easy process. So, that is the reason we took long.

Mr R. Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I am concerned about the nineteen students, the hon. Minister mentioned, who reside near where the quake happened. What has happened to them? Have you found them another school or some other residence? I am worried about them being there.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the nineteen students are part of the statistics we provided. Like we mentioned, all Zambian students are alive. In terms of the academic calendar, it has not been disturbed. Universities in Morocco open between September and November. In the first two weeks of September, the students who registered for the September intake still proceeded to attend to their school requirements. As far as we know, there are no issues where Zambian nationals are concerned. We did a thorough check and made sure that we accounted for everyone. We want to give assurance to the House that all Zambian nationals are well and alive. Their properties are not destroyed. So, under the circumstances of an earthquake, we are very lucky that Zambians are okay and we are satisfied, as the Government, that they are not in danger.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE HON MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

LAUNCH OF DR KASUKA MUTUKWA'S BOOK

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that Dr Kasuka Mutukwa, former Secretary General of the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF), will be launching a book entitled: The Birth, Rise and Role of the SADC Parliamentary Forum in Addressing Regional Issues.

In this regard, Dr Kasuka Mutukwa will display copies of the book at the main reception in the afternoon today, Wednesday, 4^th October, 2023 between 16:40 hours and 17:00 hours. Hon Members are free to have a look at the book and have an interaction with the author.

I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

OUTBREAK OF MYSTERIOUS DISEASE IN BANGWEULU AND MILENGE CONSTITUENCIES

65. Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of Health:

whether the Government is aware about the outbreak of a mysterious disease in Bangweulu and Milenge Parliamentary Constituencies affecting children under 5 years of age and has so far claimed 5 lives;

if so, what the disease is and what urgent measures the Government is taking to contain the disease; and

what measures can be taken at household level to prevent the spread of the disease.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, Government is not aware that there was a mysterious disease in Bangweulu and Milenge Parliamentary Constituencies affecting children under five years of age, and has far claimed five lives.

Madam Speaker, allow me to inform the House that on 28^th of September, 2023 Government through the Ministry of Health, dispatched a team of experts to Bangweulu and Milenge Parliamentary Constituencies.

The conclusions of the preliminary investigations are as follows:

there is no outbreak of a mysterious disease in the two parliamentary constituencies;

there is, however, an outbreak of measles and scabies. Both are a well-known diseases; and

there are also many malaria and malnutrition cases in the area.

These are general health problems not peculiar to the area. However, when co-infected with measles, the health outcome is usually poor with death occurring in some cases.

Madam Speaker, some of the measures that the Government is taking to contain the measles outbreak, or that can indeed be taken, at the household level to prevent the spread of the disease are as follows:

the health facility will intensify vaccination programmes by increasing coverage and providing regular and timely vaccines to children against measles and other vaccine preventable diseases;

the community should be well informed on measles and other infectious diseases and educated on how to handle sick children;

the community members must utilise and promote the use of mosquito nets to prevent malaria. The practice of using nets for fishing must be discouraged and stopped;

mothers are being encouraged to breastfeed for longer periods even up to two years;

appropriate nutrition programmes must be promoted especially in such areas where the primary food is only starch-based;

members of the community should be encouraged to give oral rehydration salts (ORS), vitamin A and other nutritional supplements to those who develop diarrhoea;

family planning to space out children is being encouraged among members of the community; and

the whole community participation emphasising fathers' participation in the growth of their children.

Madam Speaker, allow me to emphasise that we do not have a new strange disease. We are dealing with known conditions for which we must take very serious deliberate measures to mitigate.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, I would like to confirm that –

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, I would like to confirm that after I raised that matter on Thursday, the ministry dispatched its officers to the area on Friday and yesterday. I was also in the constituency. Now that the team was dispatched to the area, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister how many children died according to the information that the officers gave him. I ask this question because I have information and evidence that I was asked to present last Thursday. Did the officers indicate to the minister the number of lives that were lost in that area?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his follow-up question. The suspected disease outbreak occurred in twenty-seven villages of Pwele and Malawi zones of Lumanya Ward and Katulwende, Tepulo, Musala and Kapisa located in the Mbeshi area in Mushili Rural Health Centre catchment area. Upon physical review of cases, the rural health facilities and the actual case search in villages, the following active cases were recorded:

in Mwila Lukweso Village, there was a male child aged two years and four months with moderate malnutrition;

in Musala Village, a male child aged two years and seven months with clinical measles. This child was picked for hospital management;

in Musala Village, a female child aged two years with severe malnutrition, was picked and referred to the hospital for further management;

in Kapisa Village, a male child aged twelve years with clinical measles and recovering; and

at Kapisa Village, a female child aged eight months with diarrhoea with malaria.

Madam Speaker, although there were verbal confirmations of death related to the ‘strange disease’, the reported deaths were coming from the fishing camps where they do not have health facilities. No death related to the disease was recorded at any of the facilities. By 29^th September, 2023, the last death reportedly occurred some three days prior, which would have been on 26^th September, 2023. It was reported from the fishing camp where unfortunately there is no health facility.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Member for Cham South, what is your point of order.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, our Standing Orders are very clear. Parliament should always be taken very seriously by all hon. Members of Parliament. This House comprises 156 elected plus eight nominated members.

Madam Speaker, we are being told that Committees cannot sit in the morning because of the lack of quorums. A quorum is about fifty or fifty-six of the 160 members of Parliament. Is the Government Chief Whip in order? If you check there (pointing at the frontbench), there are no United Party for National Development (UPND) hon. Members of Parliament …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: … and yet this is their Budget.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, look on your left and see the discipline which is here. If we just walk out, –

Mr Nkandu: Yesterday you went but we continued!

Mr Mung’andu: This is a Budget sitting. If it is the Committees causing this, then how have you constituted these them with only UPND Members of Parliament?

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: We are here seated.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: If their argument is that they are sitting in the Committees, are they playing an oversight role on themselves? We are here seated.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you wind up your point of order.

Mr Mung’andu: Is this Government in order to not attend to parliament business and make us, in the Opposition, attend to their budget?

I seek your serious ruling before we walk out.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We all have the responsibility of participating in Parliament. I have been observing that sometimes it is this side that has no members, and other times it is the other side. My guide hon. Members is that we should take the work of Parliament very seriously. All of us are looking at the National Budget because the money is going to all our constituencies and all the people of Zambia. So, let us not have times where, on a particular day, there are no members on this side and the following day, there are no members on the other side. Can we, please, make sure that the attendance of Parliamentary work is excellent. That is my simple guide. Let all of us in this House be committed.

Let us make progress.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, the disease that broke out in Bangweulu is something that the Government should take seriously. In the response to the first part of the question, the hon. Minister of Health said that the Government was not aware. Now, the question is: What did the team that was dispatched to Bangweulu go to do since the Government was not aware of the outbreak of a disease?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am very surprised that the hon. Member can ask such a question. Although we were not aware, we were concerned. An hon. Member asked us a question, but even when you did not direct that question to us, we took upon ourselves because we thought an hon. Member of Parliament cannot be so irresponsible to raise such a question to find out what is on the ground.

Madam Speaker, if you may allow me, I think it is important that I use this occasion to state that arising from that point of order and on the fact that we sent people to see what was on ground, what we found there was not actually what he talked about, but there were other health concerns. I would like, within a minute, to just use the Floor of the House to speak to hon. Members of Parliament and the country at large that, in fact, we have a problem on the ground.

As I indicted earlier, there is a lot of malaria and malnutrition in that area, and that those are general problems not particular to an area. So, I just want to state, Madam Speaker, that the results are showing that, in fact, we seem to be having a problem with vaccinations in that part of the country. I would like hon. Members of Parliament representing constituencies from that part of the country to work to assist us because only 27 per cent of eligible children in the area are vaccinated. We can imagine that; we always hear that in some areas, 110 or 100 per cent are vaccinated. Unfortunately, only 27 per cent of the children are vaccinated in that area.

Madam Speaker, we need to do more to ensure that the communities are better informed on measles, malnutrition and malaria and how to handle sick children. We are also supposed to encourage parents to take their children under five years for vaccinations. Additionally, we are told that parents take their children with them to fishing camps on the Zambia/Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) side and they do not take the children back to the villages for vaccinations every time there is a vaccination exercise.

So, Madam Speaker, I would like to ask hon. Members of Parliament representing constituencies in that area to really help us so that we can get the children vaccinated. Even when there are weeklong or monthly vaccinations that we always conduct, we can deliberately have an exercise specifically for that part of the region. We can institute that programme under the ministry, if we can join hands together, even if the hon. Member said that it ended. We can deliberately have another deliberate moment to actually get the children vaccinated. So, I thought I should just use this opportunity.

Nonetheless, to the further address the interrelatedness of malaria and malnutrition to measles and death in children, malaria incidences in Zambia is ranging from 3 per cent in Lusaka and the Southern provinces to 63 per cent in Luapula Province. Now, we can see the difference of 3 per cent in Lusaka Province and the Southern Province, but 63 per cent is in Luapula Province. That is too high. This is why we continuously see our children dying.

Sometimes, they have multiple infections of different diseases and then, we think that it is something strange, but the real issues are the same issue we are talking about every day. So, these are simple diseases that are avoidable, preventable and treatable if only we could work together with parents, and leaders in Parliament come on board. Madam Speaker, I thought that I should just bring out this matter.

Madam Speaker, regarding malnutrition, which is also a major burden in our country, nationally, 40 per cent of the under-five children are estimated to be stunted. That is too high. When we think about this and look at us, hon. Members, one would ask what we are doing here, as leaders, if 40 per cent of the population of our children are stunted. We are hon. Members of Parliament representing the people who voted for us, but we come here and waste time talking and quarrelling over nothing. I think, for once, let us work together, at least, just in the health sector because this is about life. Just on health issues, let us work together. We can politick about mining, there will be no problem. We can also politick about other things, but just on heath, please, let us join hands.

Interruptions

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us avoid debating while seated.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, 40 per cent of stunted children is too much and, therefore, I am truly begging my hon. Colleagues here that we find the way forward to deal with these issues.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity.

Madam Speaker, –

Interruptions

Madam Frist Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am just from saying that we should not debate while seated, but somebody keeps on mentioning and shouting the same word. If you want to inform this House, please, I think there is a way of informing the House instead of disturbing people on the Floor. We want order, please, so that the people out there can get what we are talking about in this House. So, can we avoid those running commentaries and debating while seated.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.

Madam, we appreciate the responses coming from the hon. Minister. Indeed, we, hon. Members, your fellow leaders and are ready to partner with the ministry, if the sector can lead by policy because it is a very interesting sector. So, when she talks about stunting, there is a nexus between the health of the children and the food supplements they take. So, indeed, the hon. Minister is very right, but she needs to lead through policy guidance.

Madam Speaker, my question is a just a follow-up on a scenario she has given about the area that is a border line and near the water body. Fishing camps are livelihoods for our people there because that is how they bring up children. I did not hear the hon. Minister talk about surveillance, for instance, because the only she can get to understand and know the number of children who could have died is by deliberately not leaving them behind during the ministry’s periodical medical surveillance activities. That could cater for those who go into the fishing camps. How has the ministry concluded responding to the situation after the team that was dispatched to the area established that most of the people who had measles were those from the fishing camps? Does the ministry consider the surveillance activities as one of the interventions to take in order to ascertain the people that are being affected especially that they are at the border line?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I would like thank the hon. Member for the follow-up question. However, the issue he has raised on policy is correct except that he knows very well that there has been a policy under the Ministry of Health from successful Governments. For example, we have a period when mothers are called to take their children for under-five check-ups for massive vaccination and massive distribution of insecticide treated bed nets. So, the issue of policy, important as it is, in this regard does not even arise because the policy is already there. The issue is that when that day comes, parents are fishing and they do not take their children for vaccination.

Madam Speaker, there is a point that I got from him which I think is a matter we must probe. As you know, there are no clinics at the fishing camps, so, as the Government, maybe, we should follow the people at the fishing camps to see what is there. However, the problem is that there are no toilets. There is nothing there, but I think it is a matter that we can look into, working together with the communities and leaders from that area.

Mr Nkandu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, for example, regarding malaria, mosquito nets are distributed. Very soon, we will be having mass distribution of nets to every household in Zambia. However, these nets are not utilised. Some people just keep them in their homes. In my hon. Colleagues areas, nets are used for fishing. So, again, what policy can one put? It is for them to tell these people that look these are nets so, please, let us use them for what they are intended for; nets work.

Madam Speaker, anybody will tell you that a pregnant mother who religiously sleeps under a mosquito net will not get malaria. We know that from experience. Let us just work together so that we can help our people. There is a lot of health ignorance in the community. Even as we are seated here, including me, people assume we know things. The basic health information is not known by many Zambians and that is why, as the Government, we have put health education as one of priority in our five-year strategic plan. We must have many educational discussions and various activities so that basic information is understood and appreciated.

It was in this House, Madam Speaker, where some hon. Members of Parliament were not even vaccinated against the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). They refused. If you recall, I suffered as the Minister of Health because of all sorts of myths that were pushed onto social media and some people believed them. So, if we would really truthfully work together, just under the health sector, you will see this country will be a healthy nation and people will not be crying. The hon. Member of Parliament looked like he had gotten away from politics when asking his question, and I just hope that he really wants us to work together, at least on this score. Even after this meeting, we can push this thing further. I hope they will not accuse him of trying to join the United Party for National Development (UPND).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, following her answer that the Government was not aware of the strange disease, but I reckon the Government was aware that there was measles. I am told that three weeks ago, samples were taken and it was established that it was measles. However, why is it that it had to take me to come to Parliament to ask a question for the ministry to move in?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, that is a very good question. The question that was asked on the Floor of the House was related to a strange disease. Therefore, it was factual when the hon. Minister responded that the Government was not aware of this new strange disease in the country because it was not there.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue relating measles, the Government knew that there was some disease that was presenting itself amongst children, and it moved on site before that question was asked. However, when that question was asked, again, we responded by sending more people, not just the local health experts, but even health experts from the centre, here, in Lusaka because we were concerned.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the issues of surveillance in this country, at the moment, we are the leading nation through the Zambia National Public Health Institute (ZNPHI). The institution has grown. We have built it to the level that we are among the top countries in Africa conducting disease surveillance.

Mr Nkandu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, we must be proud of that. This is why we are on the map when it comes to the issues of public health disease in the world, but we can do better by, obviously, working together.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last two questions from the hon. Members for Milenge and Mandevu constituencies.

Mr Chonde (Milenge): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister clearly when she answered, but what caught my attention was malnutrition. What age group is affected? Is it only affecting the youths or the general populous and if so, what measures is the Government taking because it looks like the Government has not really tackled that area to prevent the escalation of the number of the cases.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Milenge, just a reminder that we are entitled to one question.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, malnutrition is not only undernourishment or when you see skinny children, but also when you see hon. Members of Parliament with very big stomachs. That it is obesity.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, that is being obese.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, we do not discuss or debate ourselves.

Mrs Masebo: I withdraw. Noted.

Madam Speaker, when you see any man or woman with a very big stomach or potbelly, what that tells you is that somebody is not healthy. I have heard others saying it is a sign of money. Those are diseases causing deaths attributed to non-communicable diseases, basically due to poor lifestyle. So, malnutrition does not only affect children, but it also affects older people. It is about what and how you are eating, and your lifestyle. Those are the things that cause malnutrition. However, in Zambia, obviously, the burden is more on children to the extent that if there were a hundred countries in the world, Zambia could be ranked, maybe, around ninety-six. That is just to show how serious the problem is. This is why I said that it is shocking and a big concern. Can you imagine that out of ten children, seven can be said to have malnutrition. People who suffer from malnutrition die quickly. We put a strain on the National Budget by buying drugs, instead of using the money to employ workers in the agriculture sector by buying more fertiliser, constructing roads, and so on and so forth. We should avoid spending much of our money in the Budget for buying drugs. To even say that the budget for the Ministry of Health must be 15 per cent is not the right. It must be less. The money must go to empowerment programmes, mining, and economic growth. That is what the debate should be about, not disease. No, we do not want that.

Madam Speaker, they do not give us whiskey or orange juice, here, but water because water is life. I am always happy when I see President Lungu running. It is healthy, and we encourage everyone to run.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, we have only one President in Zambia.

Mrs Masebo: The former President. That is what I meant, sorry. So, it is good to run, but do not use it for politics. Just run because it is very good.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I encourage it because when you get sick, but are leading a healthy lifestyle, the number of times you go to hospitals will be reduced. We will not be seeing you at the hospital, but if you sit at home eating cakes, biscuits and drinking Jameson and things like that, you will get sick. You will be going to the hospital and you will be crying to go to South Africa or India? We should avoid that. So, healthy living is important. Malnutrition is real in Zambia. There are people who are overweight. There are people who are skinny because they are drinking and smoking instead of eating. They are doing all sorts of things. Sometimes, when you go to the bar, here, at Parliament, you find people drinking. All those things are not good for us. So, let us live healthily and eat well.

Madam Speaker, when the Vice-President said we eat food prepared with roller mealie meal, I was shocked to hear people complain. Do you know that between roller mealie meal and breakfast mealie meal, roller mealie meal more nutritious? Sorghum, millet, and cassava from Luapula, are the ‘real’ foods and not breakfast mealie meal. Breakfast mealie meal makes you unhealthy. We should also not just be eating nshima.

Mr Nkandu: Quality!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Mrs Masebo: Sometimes, eat samp with groundnuts and a bit of –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you for that information, but it is as if we are moving away from the question on the Floor. I urge the last Member to be very specific. Please, take into consideration the question that is on the Floor.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I will go to the specifics of the question.

Madam Speaker, we have noted that the problem of malnutrition is quite high in that area and the people affected are children. I am worried when a question –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the hon. Minister of Health in accordance to our popular Standing Order No. 65, which relates to content of speech.

Madam Speaker, the question was specific, but the Minister went on to say that when you see men with big tummies, it is not a sign of good health.

Laughter

Rev Katuta: Imbila yamushi!

Mr Chitotela: However, she forgot to talk about whether women with big bodies is a sign of good health. Is the Minister of Health in order just to refer to men with big tummies and not to women with big bodies?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am sure that was on a lighter note.

Hon. Minister, please, be careful of gender issues when answering questions on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Member for Mandevu, may you continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, I was saying that the problem of malnutrition in Bangweulu affects children. My hon. Colleague asked about what urgent measures the Government was taking to contain the disease, but the hon. Minister started talking about adults’ lifestyles. There is a problem in the camp, and the Government needs to move in and sort it out. When are we going to see the Government taking measures such as taking food supplements to correct what is happening to the children? We have heard that there is a problem with vaccinations. When will The Government move in to vaccinate the children who do not have a health facility nearby?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the House an opportunity to debate this matter in this manner. I believe people are listening out there are getting one or two things because this issue is real. So, I want to say thank you for allowing us to even get off line.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has asked two questions. I am trying to see which one I should take. Maybe, let me take the first one.

Madam Speaker, when officers in the Ministry of Health hear of an issue and get on the ground, they conduct a vaccination exercise. They never stop. So, even as they go to a place and find that a child is not vaccinated, they do their part. We must thank health workers when it comes to such exercises. However, we, as Members of Parliament, have a role to play to help because we are leaders.

Madam Speaker, did you know that communities listen more to councillors and Members of Parliament more than they listen to the health workers? Members of Parliament, the church leadership, and teachers are influencers. That is why it is very important to use this House to help our people. We must use the positions that the people have put us in for their good.

Madam Speaker, in fact, when it comes to the Government’s programmes, the Ministry of Health, not just this time, but from 1964, has done its best, and successful Governments, in that regard, have tried. The problem is the elected people. How much collaboration do we have with the Ministry of Health to ensure that our people in our communities are vaccinated? I have not seen the Member of Parliament for Mandevu, for example, go on radio or make statements to call the people to go and be vaccinated. What we normally see, sometimes, is people speaking against a programme, as was the case during the period when we had the COVID-19. Remember, if it were not for the President to intervene in COVID-19 vaccinations, we would not have reached 70 per cent.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Masebo: I, as Minister, was being hammered left, right and centre. So, we are doing what the hon. Member has said and we shall continue doing so.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

PLANS TO RECLAIM THE BROKEN HILL MAN SKULL

66. Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Tourism:

whether the Government has any plans to reclaim the Broken Hill Man Skull that was discovered in Kabwe in 1921 and later taken to London;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia does have plans to reclaim the Broken Hill Skull, which was discovered in Kabwe in 1921 and later taken to London. Recently, a delegation from my ministry, led by my Permanent Secretary, travelled to London to hold bilateral talks with representatives of the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland for the purposes of expediting the return of the Broken Hill Skull to Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the bilateral talks between the Government of the Republic of Zambia and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the Government of Northern Ireland were held on 27^th and 28^th April, 2023 at the Natural History Museum (NHM). The talks were organised following Recommendation 23.COM 7 of the Intergovernmental Committee for Promoting the Return of Cultural Properties (ICPRCP) to its country of origin or its restitution in case of illicit appropriation at its 23^rd Session in May, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the recommendations called on the two Governments, among other things, to agree on the roadmap to resolve the restitution case and to report to the Committee at its 24^th Session to be held in 2024.

Madam Speaker, the representatives of the United Kingdom informed the meeting that the current United Kingdom Government had no plans –

Madam Speaker, I will repeat: The representatives of the United Kingdom informed the meeting that the current United Kingdom Government had no plans to either amend the legislation relating to the restitution of cultural property from museum collections or instruct the NHM to return the Broken Hill Skull as it is independent of the Government and the decision would be of its trustees. In this regard, the two parties could not proceed further in the decisions because they had no point of convergence regarding the return of the Broken Hill Man skull to Zambia. Zambia’s position was to have the skull returned to its country of origin and reserve the right to explore other avenues in securing its return. The two parties agreed to report, and the report would be written and submitted to the (ICPRCP) to their countries of origin or its restitution in the case of illicit appropriation before the next sitting. Further, the same report would be shared with the relevant ministries of the two countries.

Madam Speaker, following the outcome of the bilateral talks, the two parties are expected to report to the ICPRCP or its restitution in the case of illicit appropriation at its 24th Session to be held next year.

Madam Speaker, obviously, question (c) falls off.

I submit.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for granting me this opportunity to ask a follow-up question. I thank the Government of the Republic of Zambia for following up to reclaim the Broken Hill Man skull, our ancestor in Kabwe. Indeed, the people of Kabwe want to make sure that they see their ancestor back in Kabwe because we also want to promote tourism in the town.

Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister be able to tell this House the kind of agreement that was there at the time the skull was taken to the United Kingdom (UK)? Was there any agreement signed between Government to Government?

Mr Kapyanga: It was stolen!

Mr Sikumba: Indeed, Madam Speaker, it is our desire as the Government to actually reclaim the remains of the Broken Hill Man so that a befitting burial can be performed by our colleagues in Kabwe and the village where it was discovered. I may not be privy to the specific agreements or arrangements that were signed at the time, obviously, not because I was not yet born but because the information that is seating within the ministry is limited. However, one thing we know, especially from what I responded to much earlier regarding Recommendations 23.COM 7 that has given us authority, as respective countries, to be able to claim all the remains that may have been repatriated from our countries to different states.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we are behind time and this was a constituency-based question. We can make progress.

Hon. Member for Feira, you may proceed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thought the question was of national interest. We have strong feelings about these things.

I am very thankful, on behalf of the people of Feira, for the opportunity to ask Question No. 67.

WHEN ROUTINE MAINTENANCE WORKS WERE LAST CARRIED OUT ON D145 ROAD FROM LUANGWA BRIDGE TO LUANGWA TOWN

67. Mr E Tembo asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

when routine maintenance works were last carried out on the D145 Road from Luangwa Bridge to Luangwa Town in Lusaka Province from the time the road was tarred to date;

if none, why;

when the routine works will commence;

when construction of the new Luangwa Bridge will commence; and

why commencement of the project has delayed despite funds being secured.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), last carried out routine maintenance on D145 Road in May 2023.

Madam Speaker, as indicated in the response to part (a) of the question, routine maintenance works were undertaken.

Madam Speaker, the next scheduled maintenance works, which include pothole patching, will be undertaken once funds have been allocated. The condition survey has already been undertaken and cost estimates have been prepared.

Madam Speaker, construction of a new bridge in Luangwa will be done when funds for the project are secured.

Madam Speaker, funds have not yet been secured as the Japanese Government has not approved the budget to commence the project. This is in answer to the Hon. Member’s question on why works have not been undertaken when funds have been secured. The answer to that section is that in our discussions with the Japanese Government, the funds have not yet been released.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, the Road Development Agency (RDA) has not done any works neither in 2022 nor 2023. What happened was that through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), there were hotspots where work was done but the road as it stands, which I use every week, is in a deplorable state and we have been having serious accidents on that road. The former hon. Minister of Information and Media went there two weeks ago. So, this is a serious issue. As I speak, there are seriously injured children in the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and one person died on the spot in an accident.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that he has actually been misinformed by his technocrats because there is no such thing as the RDA having worked on D145 road this year?

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, no, I cannot confirm that.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity given to me, on behalf of the people of Lubansenshi, to ask a supplementary question. The people of Lubansenshi, and the Zambian people, at large, want to find out. For 2023, we allocated K4 billion towards road maintenance where we expected that even the road works in question under Feira Constituency should have been addressed. Now, can the hon. Minister confirm and highlight if the ministry has depleted the K4 billion that was allocated, and as a result that road in Feira has not taken shape?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, first of all, K4 billion sounds like a lot of money but in terms of infrastructure development, it is a drop in the ocean. At the current exchange rate that is about US$200 million. If you look at, for example, the Lusaka/Ndola Road contract that was given, it was US$1.245 billion. The K200 million that was allocated in the 2023 Budget also included provisions for debt repayments, including statutory repayments to the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA). It also included a lot of other backlog payments. So, ultimately, what remains for effective road construction is very little considering the size of our country. A figure like that was not adequate. You will understand that the New Dawn Administration has done everything in its power to lower the cost of constructing roads. That is why, right now, compared to where we were before, we are constructing, for example, a kilometre of bituminous road at around half of what it was done previously. Even then, like when the Patriotic Front (PF) was in Government, it was costing so much. So, the cost that we are talking about is round US$ 500,000 or US$ 600,000 per kilometre for a bituminous road.

Madam Speaker, if you pick any road, you will find that even if we were to say half a million dollars per kilometre, if I pick on one that we are going to undertake as soon as possible, the Chipata/Chadiza Road with 60 km, we are talking about UD$30 million, at least. These amounts are not sufficient and that is why the New Dawn Administration has looked at other financing models such as the Public-Private Partnerships (PPP) to enable it construct as many roads as possible. So, in relation to the figure that the hon. Member for Lubansenshi is asking about, yes, properly allocated but still not enough to do what we need to do. In fact, we had a supplementary

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, with regard to the Luangwa Bridge, I remember very well the announcement that was made that Japan had reserved US$70 million and that Zambia was to reserve US$5 million. The hon. Minister knows better than I possibly do. Can the hon. Minister state when all the outstanding issues will be concluded on the bridge. The current bridge is also equally not safe.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Luangwa Bridge costing US$75 million, slightly to the south of the current bridge has been planned to be substantially undertaken under a grant from the Japanese Government through Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA). I have been engaged by the Japanese Government through the ambassador for example, to talk about this project. The designs have been done that is why we know the cost. However, we must also allow for the fact that we are dealing with a foreign Government that is indeed just helping us, and 10 per cent of the cost is to be borne by the Zambian Government. Therefore, it has its internal processes. Last time we engaged, the matter was yet to be presented according to the information, to its Cabinet. As recipient of this good will gesture from the Japanese Government, all we can do is waiting until its internal processes are complete and the money released.

Madam Speaker, what was announced, was the fact that Government had plans with the assistance of JICA, through the Japanese Government, to put up this new bridge.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we have to make progress especially that this is the Budget Session. We still have the Budget Speech to debate. We move on to the next question.

DEGAZETTING THE OLD CHILENJE CEMETERY

68. Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

whether the Government has any plans to degazette the Old Chilenje Cemetery in Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency; and

if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government does not have any immediate plans to degazette the Old Chilenje Cemetery in Kabwata Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, as I stated in (a) above, there are no plans to degazette the cemetery, hence, there will be no timeframe given to that degazettion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Minister has actually seen the place. This is because that place has actually become either a den of thieves and we have picked up some dead bodies. Further, the place has become a dumpsite. What measures has the Government put in place for that place to be secured? What is happening there is a sad story. So, what plans does the Government have for that old cemetery?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it is petty that this sacred area has become a dumpsite. However, I wish to inform you that as a result of excessive urbanisation, the whole urban setting has become a dumpsite, unfortunately. Furthermore, because cemeteries are secluded, you will find that people who have engaged themselves in criminal activities will dump their victims in places such as these, and it is extremely unfortunate.

Madam Speaker, let me given some little information that may help us to understand whether we will have what it takes or we will be compelled to degazette this cemetery. Currently, there is actually no law that gives a timeframe for the degazettion of any cemetery. There is no law such as that and due to this gap, in the Public Health Act, Zambia has been using the old British Ordinances of conversion from the pre-independences era which stipulate that a cemetery could be degazetted 100 years after the last burial was conducted. However, this is not binding as it is based on the ordinances that we inherited from the British colony and is clearly absent and serves as a lacuna in the Public Health Act.

Madam Speaker, currently, the practices show that some cemeteries have been degazetted fifty years after the last burial. We have that information but it is not sitting in any law. However, with regard to the Chilenje Cemetery, records show that the last burial was conducted somewhere in the mid-1940s, which translates to about eighty years ago since the last burial.

Madam Speaker, with this background, the local authority, the Lusaka City Council, is fairly unsure whether the cemetery should be degazetted and will require much more consultation from many stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, as the researcher who is advocating to keeping our cultural values, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development for that answer and for protecting our cultural values because it is against our culture to start drilling a borehole at that place.

Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is: Would he allow the hon. Member for Kabwata Constituency to use his Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to beautify that place. He can even talk to the hon. Minister of Tourism so that he can invite tourists to go to Kabwata and see that graveyard. He can even generate more money to beautify his constituency.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, cemeteries are sacred. They have sentimental value and sometimes can be deemed to be haunted places. At the same time, cemeteries can be deemed to be extremely peaceful places. So, to answer the hon. Member’s question in one shot, I would be the first one to agree to make sure that the cemeteries are green, and well protected. Therefore, yes, we would allow such kind of an application for the cemeteries to be well looked after. Having said so, with regard to Chilenje Cemetery, where the last burial was done plus or minus eighty years ago, it goes without saying that probably those graves may have no one who may be connected to them, in the lineage of life, to be looking after the individual graves and that is how come it now looks abandoned. If we look at active cemeteries, hon. Members will see that year to year, people congregate to pay memorials to their beloved dead relatives. So, when we take a scenario such as what we are discussing this afternoon, eighty years down the line is too long a period. I think the Government has what it takes to look after these serene areas.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, that place has not only become a place where dead bodies have been dumped, but it has also become economic financial crime place. I have a very sad story about Chilenje Cemetery. A colleague from the Copperbelt was sold a portion of land. This is a fact. He parted away with about K350,000. When he called me to go and see his portion of land, he took me to Chilenje Cemetery. I told him that the land was a cemetery and that he could not buy land there.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, another Chinese cried there.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, with the Chinese it was more than K4 million. What immediate plans does the hon. Minister have to, at least, secure that place or put signs to show that it, indeed, is a cemetery so that people should stop falling victims to a number of these bogus estate agents?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it is saddening to learn that unscrupulous people could actually go ahead and sell a cemetery. Like I said, cemeteries are monumental areas and it is the duty of local authorities and, indeed, my ministry to look after these areas. So, colleagues, let me take this now as a wake-up call to make sure that I personally visit that cemetery because I do not even know exactly where it is. However, having said so, I will go and have a look and see whether it is possible for anyone to go and buy land without seeing tombstones and things like that. If there are none that exist, it is still the duty of anybody who wants to buy land through any conveyance method to do due diligence on a particular piece of land before parting away with money. So, maybe we can just use this platform and the hon. Member’s question to ask our citizens to be a little bit more careful when it comes to the acquisition of land. They must make sure that they do due diligence on the status of the parcel of land that they intend to buy.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

COMMENCEMENT OF REHABILITATION OF THE KATETE/CHADIZA ROAD

69. Ms Phiri (Milanzi) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

(a) when rehabilitation of the Katete/Chadiza road will commence;

(b) what the estimated cost of the project is; and

(c) what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Katete/Chadiza road will be undertaken by the Government once funds for the required works have been secured.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of the project will only be known once a contractor for the project has been engaged.

Madam Speaker, the timeframe for the project will be determined once the designs for the required works have been prepared.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms M Phiri: Madam Speaker, when is the hon. Minister acquiring the funds and how much is he looking for?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. The follow-up questions give me an opportunity to give a bit more information on this road. The Katete/Chadiza Road is part of the Chipata/Chadiza/Katete Road Project where the Messrs China State Engineering Corporation was the contractor engaged under the supervision of Messrs Ng’andu Consulting Ltd.

Madam Speaker, the project was terminated due to financial constraints. The preparation for the final account is underway following the termination of the contract.

Madam Speaker, critical sections that are impassable on the road in question will be worked on under Force Account to ensure that the connectivity is not affected as we wait for the full rehabilitation works.

Madam Speaker, let me inform the hon. Member and the House that the need for road rehabilitation in our country is great. Without exception, all provinces need certain critical roads to be completely rehabilitated. In that area, the Katete to Chadiza, there are, for example, Chipata/Chadiza, Katete/Chanida, Chadiza/Chanida and others around that area. So, what the Government is doing now is to think of ways of allocating some resources so that some of those roads can start being worked on. This is what we are working on. Those that can be done under the Public-Private Partnerships (PPP) are being done under the PPP. As a result of that, this coming Monday, we will be in the Katete area to flag off the PPP project on the Katete/Chanida Road.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is asking about the specific cost of the Katete/Chadiza Road. The costs are normally known when bids are evaluated. Since there have been no bids evaluated, it is difficult to give a specific figure. What we can give is roughly our in-house estimates which are based on the average cost per kilometre multiplied by the number of kilometres on that road. She can help us work that one out. It is between US$500,000 to US$600,000 per kilometre. We just need to multiply that by the number of kilometres between Katete and Chadiza.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that plans are underway to work on the critical areas of the road. When are these works starting?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, this is a continuous process and I would ask the hon. Member to engage with our regional office in Chipata to ensure that those parts that are termed to be critical are attended to first. If she needs help from us or indeed the headquarters, we will be glad to get involved. I am hoping that she will be with us in Katete on Monday. We can look at that because the regional manager will also be there and we can engage him on issues relating to this road.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, road maintenance is of concern, just as the hon. Minister himself has echoed. However, I want to find out from him what the maintenance mode in his ministry is. Is it annually or based on spot checks?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chembe, Hon. Mpundu, for that question. He is tempting me to go into details about maintenance practices in engineering construction such as roads. However, the maintenance that we undertake or should be undertaken is preventive maintenance as well as what would be termed as breakdown maintenance. This is when potholes appear. You go and undertake breakdown maintenance to repair the potholes.

Madam Speaker, ordinarily, when a road is constructed, it has a lifespan and there are periods and certain benchmarks that determine when routine and preventive maintenance ought to be carried out. For example, when the wearing surface wears to a certain level, we are supposed to go in and replace it.

Madam Speaker, what has been happening in Zambia is that over the years, preventive maintenance has not been carried out. This is has resulted in the situation where our roads and other infrastructure are only subjected to repair maintenance. That means there has been a failure and you go in and repair that failure.

Madam Speaker, what the New Dawn Government is now going to do is to reconstitute maintenance gangs through our regional offices. Instead of them just giving out or signing contracts, there will be certain types of works that they can undertake on a regular basis. For that part of the process, we have to acquire maintenance equipment that will be allocated to all the provincial centres so that in addition to their duties, they carry out maintenance regularly on our roads, especially preventive maintenance.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

MEASURES GOVERNMENT IS TAKING TO PAY SALARY ARREARS OWED TO COUNCIL WORKERS COUNTRYWIDE

70. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

what measures the Government is taking to pay salary arrears owed to council workers, countrywide; and

what the cause of the delay in paying employees their salaries, is.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to liquidate salary arrears on behalf of local authorities as the mandate to do this lies within the ambit of the local authorities. However, the Government is committed to supporting the local authorities through timely disbursement of the Local Government Equalisation Fund. The Government has also found innovative ways of broadening the revenue streams to reduce the time of arrears’ payment from what it was when we took office in 2021. It certain cases, it was as long as eight months to now two months, plus or minus.

Madam Speaker, the salary arrears were caused by financial constraints that were faced by local authorities. This mostly arose from the bloated establishments that were occasioned by employment of people who would unnecessarily be employed in the local authorities. An example given is the situation that we inherited whereby a local authority with a fire department, but without a fire tender, has twenty firemen all seated and playing nsolo all day and waiting to get a salary.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses. The hon. Minister is alive to the fact that the local authorities are having financial challenges because the main sources of revenue were removed from them. He has said that the central Government can only come in through timely disbursement of the Local Government Equalisation Fund.

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister think that the equalisation fund is enough? I am aware that the salaries of council workers in Chinsali, for example, up to this time are in six months arrears. In Mongu, they are in six months arrears. In Luangwa, it is four months of arrears, in Mbala, it is four months of arrears and Lusaka, one month of arrears. So, is the equalisation fund enough really to make sure that the council workers are paid so that they continue to provide a public service to the people of Zambia?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am truly grateful to the hon. Colleague who asked this question. These are the sort of questions that we need to be asked in order to clarify the position as it is today.

Madam Speaker, in clarifying the position, we have no option but to look at the ugly past. The local authorities for a period of nearly ten years were incapacitated because of the Government’s position of allowing political cadres to take over the functions of councils. Political cadres became the ones who were allocating trading places. Political cadres became the ones who were authorising the allocation of money booths. Political cadres were the ones who were allocating land in road reserves. The malignance went on and on to the extent that...

Mr E. Tembo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkandu: Remind them.

Mr Nkombo: ... the political cadres, take Lusaka as an example, decided that they were going to be innovative by creating clutter containers made of steal and littered them all over the show. The councils were now sharing the revenue at K100 per month for the council and as much as K1,500 for the political cadres.

Mr E. Tembo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, these are hard facts that I am sharing with this House. How then could anyone expect the councils to fire in all cylinders when money was being taken away from them?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, as if to add insult to injury, the levies in the markets were being collected by political cadres. The bus stop fees were all being collected by political cadres. These are all facts that are undisputable. These were cadres from the political party that the hon. Member of Parliament who asked that question belongs.

Now, Madam Speaker, he has given me a rundown of how far each of the councils where he researched is behind in terms of salary arrears. That is fair and I think he is a well-researched man, especially on the last detail where he says that now Lusaka council is behind by one month. We found it at about six to seven months behind. It means we are getting somewhere.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, we live in Lusaka and we started off by tidying up Lusaka. As we tidy up Lusaka, things are falling in place everywhere in the country. This is what has been the President’s message of the restoration of order in our society. Now, I would like to add some information to –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, before Business was suspended, I was furnishing some examples to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, regarding where we think we are and how we intend to make accounts of local authorities buoyant once again.

Mr Speaker, if we take Lusaka as an example, there are many advertising bill boards. Every corner you take, you see an advertising bill board which is one revenue stream. There are also property rates. There are so many revenue streams that we can speak about. When you ask yourself the question: Where is the money that the council is earning from these big electronic billboards? We found that these billboards where actually managed by a chosen few, most of whom where members of the ruling party. So, now, you ask yourself whether you are able to trust Dracula with the keys of the blood bank.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: You cannot. So, the keys of the blood bank were taken away from Dracula and I can assure you now that the bank deposit of the blood is getting buoyant. As we go along, and I am telling you now with authority; give me just another year, we will correct what went wrong in ten years …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: …in terms of councils paying on time because we are very strict. When we start working we mean business. We do not joke.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Speaker, there are some newly created districts that have no capacity like my district, Chipili. How is the hon. Minister going to treat them compared to Lusaka and other cities?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, in Chipili, we went to commission a mine that is run by a Zambian citizen called, Dr Sixtus Mulenga. That is an economic and social growth point. I want you to understand that the Copperbelt started just like Chipili, with one mine. So, we showed seriousness by what we did to go all the way with the Head of State. The President, invited by a private citizen, flew from Lusaka to Chipili to the mine Dr Mulenga has established. We went to encourage him to create jobs, and encourage other suppliers of goods and services to be established in Chipili.

Mr Speaker, cities are not built overnight. I will give an example of Shenzhen in China, a city that is probably younger than all of us, it is forty years old. However, because there is serious leadership in China, over the period that Hu Jintao was President up to this time when Xi Jinping is President, you have seen that Shenzhen is like another silicon valley. What was a rural area is now a highly industrialised area where the headquarters Huawei is. Chipili can be just like that. It is a gradual process. People who have a vision and foresight can develop very easily. It should also be remembered, through your question, that we are the crème de la crème of this country who have been asked to come and serve the interest and aspiration of others. So, we must always have a vision, not like those who say, “Me, I have no vision, ku tekafye”. No.

Laugher

Mr Nkombo: We must have a vision of how you want your place Chipili to look like in the next ten years.

Mr Speaker, let me now tell you. I have been a Member of Parliament for eighteen years now, and I, as a Member of Parliament, was stifled during their reign. I was so stifled and they said look, there is no development in Mazabuka. However, go there now and see how Mazabuka’s face is changing. It is changing side by side with Lusaka because you may accuse me of anything. I made Lusaka my personal project that it will never be the same any more in terms of the outlook to attract tourists, to make sure that people are feelings safe, together with my colleague the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security. It is about cohesive vision to get things right. We will curb many of these things that take us backwards and Chipili will not be left behind. To tell you the truth, with Dr Sixtus Mulenga there and the encouragement that we are giving him, Chipili will soon become like Mazabuka and then eventually like Lusaka, and everyone will rush there.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo: Mr Speaker, the challenge with the equalisation fund is that you are treating local authorities the same; whether rich or poor. Do you not think of undertaking a feasibility study so that you determine which councils need help and which ones can stand alone. For example, Kalumbila, Solwezi, Kitwe and Munali are very rich but you still give them the equalisation fund at the expense of poor local authorities.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Mtayachalo: So, are you not thinking of undertaking feasibility studies.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I want to confirm to my colleague and friend that there will be no feasibility study. There will be none of that kind of thing. The Local Authority Equalisation Fund was a brainchild of his Government. They are the ones who made it ‘one size fits all’. The same amount for Lusaka, Senanga, and Shangombo. I want him to go back to my ministry so that, maybe, once we give him the current information, he will then wish he had not asked that question because there are local authorities that we are supporting a bit more than others. We are of the view that Lusaka, for instance, should not even qualify to get funds under the Local Authority Equalisation Fund. What is there to equalise in Lusaka? However, it is these things that we inherited from you.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Bit by bit, we are busy stitching the tattered trousers we were wearing now, that we inherited from PF, until we cover our skin and buy new clothes.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Watch the space. In two years’ time, Hon. Yotam Mtayachalo, my friend of old times, we will not even need to invite you to join our party, you will come on your own.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

BENEFITS OF THE SOCIAL CASH TRANSFER PROGRAMME

71. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

what are the benefits of the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) Programme are;

what challenges were encountered in implementing the programme, as of March, 2023; and

what measures are being taken to resolve the challenges, including the sharing of National Registration Card (NRC) numbers by beneficiaries

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha) on behalf of the (Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms Mwamba)): Mr Speaker, with respect to what the benefits of the Social Cash Transfer Programme are, I wish to highlight the following:

the Social Cash Transfer supplements households' income among the most vulnerable and incapacitated households to enable them to meet immediate basic needs in relation to food, livelihood, education and shelter;

it contributes towards the increase in the number of children enrolled and attending primary school education;

it contributes towards the reduction of mortality and morbidity among children under the age of five years;

it contributes towards the increase in the number of households having a second meal per day and promotes household food security; and

it contributes towards the increase in the number of households owning assets such as livestock.

Mr Speaker, allow me to highlight some major challenges that have been encountered in implementing the programme as of March, 2023:

the lack of banking facilities in some districts and this entails pay point managers covering long distances to cash in the cheques. This poses great risks on their way from the bank to their respective communities;

high risk of holding huge sums of money for beneficiaries by the pay point managers;

poor internet connectivity in some districts and this causes some delays in the disbursement of cash transfers; and

some beneficiaries have fallen out from the lists due to shared National Registration Card (NRC) numbers.

Mr Speaker, to address the above challenges including the one under part (c) of the question, the following interventions are being made:

digitalisation of the payment system. The ministry has embarked on this process to enhance efficiency, transparency, accountability, coordination and coherence in the SCT programming. This will ensure effective tracking of payments in real-time;

the ministry will leverage on the extensive national coverage of fibre networks currently being undertaken to address the challenge of internet connectivity;

to resolve the challenge of shared NRC numbers, engagements are ongoing with the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship (DNRPC) to ensure the reconciliation of shared NRCs. Further, the ministry has resolved to replace NRCs for the household heads whose NRC numbers are shared with the NRC number of any other member of the household so that the household is not affected.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, on the sharing of NRC numbers, the engagement and the collaboration the hon. Minister is talking about, what immediate effects in its implementation are we going to notice that those who were sharing NRC numbers are no longer sharing. As I am speaking to you, many people are being affected by the problem of sharing NRC numbers. So, how immediate will a solution be found so that the people receive their benefits due to disability or age?

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, as indicated, the engagement is ongoing with the DNRPC. I appreciate the genuine concern of the hon. Member because it has the potential to disadvantage many beneficiaries. That is why, as a ministry, we have started the engagement to ensure that some reconciliation exercises are taken to clean up this anomaly. I want to assure you that we will do everything possible to speedily resolve this problem. Of course, these anomalies are bound to happen here and there, but we want to ensure that the rampant prevalence is cleared.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has acknowledged that one of the challenges that the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) pay-out is facing is connectivity due to the lack of internet in some areas, especially in Bangweulu Wetlands, Barotse Floodplain, part of Kasempa and Kaputa, does the ministry have intentions for the areas I have mentioned to simply continue paying people using the manual system like it used to in the past until the network is improved? It is very difficult, for example, in the wetlands for the Ministry of Technology and Science to install network towers to provide connectivity for people to receive their SCT money, especially now that it is using the programme called Zambia Integrated Social Protection Information System (ZISPIS). In some cases it takes more than three or four days for beneficiaries to access their money.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, I am the one to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu for that question.

Mr Speaker, fortunately, there has been many advancements in technology, but also as he indicated, there has been an extensive roll out of fibre network in various parts. We are confident that the other parts that are not yet connected will in due course be connected and then we will continue to take advantage of the existence of the fibre network to ensure that we go the digital way.

Mr Speaker, again, to allay the fears of the hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu, I can confirm that currently, the manual system is still being used in rural areas, but in the long term, it the desire of the ministry and the Government to ensure that we optimise the use of the new technology in the disbursement.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, my other question is related to the workers under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare Service. Are the officers who go to register beneficiaries professional social workers or are they hired from other departments and do not have the feel of what it is to be, firstly, disabled or, secondly, to be poor? Are they professional social workers? If they are not professional social workers, why is it that the ministry engages people who do not have the social feel for the poor and disabled, who are left out during registration?

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, all the workers who are sent out from the ministry are professional social welfare workers. I want to add that it does not take one to be a professional social welfare to feel for the plight of the poor or the disabled. I think even those who are not professional social welfare people will still feel for the poor. There are professionals in different entities who will naturally have a different character. So, maybe, those are the ones that the hon Member of Parliament has spotted, but I want to assure hon. Members that the people we send out on these undertakings are professional social welfare officers.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, the House will agree with me that as leaders in here, one of the things that we always want to do is to help those who are in need and, obviously, the Government has been increasing the number of people who are supposed to be beneficiaries.

Mr Speaker, I want to draw the hon. Minister to some of the challenges that he highlighted. The most important one is that hon. Members of Parliament do not have any particular information about the beneficiaries so that we can optimise their support. I have been talking about this for the last seven years that I have been in this august House. No wonder, maybe, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central was asking if, really, we have trained social welfare officers.

Mr Speaker, your hon. Members of Parliament do not have accurate information and I am speaking for myself in Kantanshi. If the hon. Minister may have seen, the lame have started going back on the streets, yet we have been passing a lot of money to support them at household level so that they can focus on education and other things. When is the ministry going to review the so called ‘zones’, which purely do not make sense? For instance, somebody who stays in Munali is getting paid in Kabwata and somebody is who stays in Kabwata is being paid in Chawama because of zoning, yet the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has well-established constituency boundaries that the Government can make use of so that we are able to know how many beneficiaries, households, children-headed households, and the old. So, we need that information. When can the Government commit to do that? If it is able to commit to that, then we are going to optimise the use of all the money that we have been putting under the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) Programme.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, I want to most sincerely thank the hon. Member for Kantanshi for that very elaborate question. I see genuineness in that question and I want to say that we regret that hon. Members of Parliament who, in essence, are the people’s representative are not given adequate information. I, therefore, want to pledge on the Floor of this august House that the engagement with hon. Members of Parliament and my ministry is actually under way. Hon. Member, we will ensure that, going forward, we engage each other and as much as possible, we provide you with accurate information so that you can also help us by giving us feedback on the number of challenges, in particular, in your various constituencies so that you can help the Government and this ministry, in particular, to ensure that we do what is right in helping the most vulnerable people in your constituencies.

Once again, thank you for that question and we will attend to the issues.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa: Mr Speaker, Zambia has a population of almost 20 million people, and 7 per cent of that, close to about 1.4 million people, are people living with disabilities. The people that are living with disabilities are in different levels. I would like to know what criteria the community welfare assistance committee (CWAC) members use to select people living with disabilities because they may pick a person living with disability who might even be in a better position to fend for himself.

Mr Mposha: Mr Speaker, in terms of the criteria, I wish to state that this is the issue of going into communities and identifying the most vulnerable groups or, indeed, the people living with severe disabilities and then bring that information to the officers who go round, but it is also the issue of who comes first. So, if the other person who is said to be living with a lesser disability is the one who was registered earlier than the one living with a severe disability, such a concern might come out. Otherwise, the criteria are there to ensure that we capture all those who are certified as disabled by medical practitioners. I think that is the highlight of the criteria to identify who should benefit in that category. However, it is the issue of people coming up and providing us with this information. The hon. Member of Kabwata may agree with me that some people living with disabilities are kept locked up in homes, and if we do not know, it means, we do not know. For those who are brought and medical practitioners certify that the intended beneficiaries are certified people living the disabilities, they qualify to be on the list of beneficiaries.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

_______

MOTION

BUDGET 2024

(Debate resumed)

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, yesterday, in my debate, I was outlining strategies that the Government has put in place to attract foreign investors and to unlock economic potential. I spoke about building strong international relations, a free corrupt environment, offer incentives, and investing in infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, I just want to emphasise on free corrupt environment and political stability. In an environment where there is no corruption, each investor, and looking at the potential that the country has, cannot resist investing. As we can all see, this time around there is a free atmosphere where no corrupt issues are coming up in place.

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, we have put up a legal framework that will ensure that all those who are thinking along those lines can be detected and curbed.

Mr Speaker, political stability is one of the key drivers to economic growth. If the country is at war, there is no one who would want to bring investment into the country. This means that there will be no resources that will come in.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, the country is so peaceful that anyone can come and do business as long as he or she subscribes to the laws of the land. I do not want to talk about the past, but I just want to look at the present.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the way political issues are being handled in the country, I think there is no one who can complain. No one can say they are being victimised or that the Government is pushing an agenda for political expediency; there is no one. Those who probably would want to complain are those who are trying to dare the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, they say let sleeping dogs lie or else they will do something that you do not expect.

Mr Speaker, so, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Mr Speaker, I had indicated to ask a supplementary question on the question that was posed by the Hon. Member for Kanyama.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Mr Speaker, as I contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor on the Budget Speech tendered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, allow me to adopt the views of my young brother, hon. Member for Nkana, as my own.

Mr Speaker, the theme for the address by the hon. Minister was “Unlocking Economic Potential” and I asked myself whose potential the hon. Minister is unlocking.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has already unlocked the potential for the rich people. He has already asked the mining conglomerates to not pay taxes. Mineral royalty tax is deductible, but its rate is now lower. The people who need to be assisted in terms of potential are the poor people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, what has the hon. Minister done to the poor Zambians? He is going to tax them when they transact on mobile money. That is not increasing the cost of living for the poor people by unlocking their potential, but actually tightening it and throwing away the keys. What has the Government done for the poor people? It has increased the cost of fuel.

Mr Speaker, the cost of fuel and electricity are enablers for the potential to be unlocked. The hon. Minister did not talk about anything to show that the cost of fuel is going to be reduced in this country. Whose economic potential is he unlocking?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, what is the cost of mealie meal today? Does the hon. Minister expect the poor Zambian people to be economically active while hungry? How do you produce when you are hungry? These are the answers the hon. Minister ought to give. In the absence of focusing on the poor people, I do not see how economic potential is going to be unlocked for the majority poor Zambians. Therefore, I find this budget presentation a very gloomy one for the poor people. It is very gloomy.

Mr Speaker, let me tell you something else that the hon. Minister is going to do. He is going to borrow K83 billion locally, according to this borrowing plan. That is now crowding the private capability to borrow and that means no employment for the hungry people who are over taxed. How do you employ teachers and health workers and then pay them money that you are taxing their mobile transactions? How is that unlocking the potential?

Mr Speaker, in this Budget, which the hon. Minister presented, he is going to borrow a total amount of K102 billion which is 56.3 per cent of his Budget.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, let me add for those who are shouting.

Mr Speaker, K17.6 billion in foreign debt and K83.2 in local debt, that is what the hon. Minister is going to borrow next year. How much is that? It is K100.2 billion.

What is the percentage of that from K177 billion? It is 56 per cent. The Minister told us that he was closing the fiscal deficit. What kind of closing is that when he is going to borrow more than 50 per cent of the Budget?

Mr Speaker, we must not be fooled.

Mr Simushi: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, I stand on Standing Order No. 65. My point of order is on the Member who is debating. He must be factual in his presentation. The Minister of Finance stood here. What he told us is that the Government is going to borrow K16 billion domestic debt, not K83 billion. Where is he getting it?

Is he, therefore, in order to mislead himself and mislead this House and the public?

I seek your ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Amutike interjected

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us ensure that we are factual as we present the figures. Let us ensure that, at all times, we refer to the Budget Speech on anything to do with figures. We should not talk outside the Budget Speech that was presented.

Thank you, you can continue hon. Member.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, gross domestic financing for the financial year 2024 is projected at K83.2 billion. This is what he is going to borrow. From part of this borrowing, he is going to pay maturities for next year, when he borrowed K78 billion in the last Budget. So, part of this he will pay the maturities. That is what the Minister said.

Mr Speaker, I am speaking as an authority, not as an accountant by name, but as a professional accountant. On these matters, I am a professional. I am an authority.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker,

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us minimise the noise.

Mr Kafwaya: Where in this Budget Speech is it showing that he is going to reduce the suffering for the people of Zambia? Nowhere. The people of Zambia will continue to have expensive nshima, which the poor people cannot afford. However, let me speak to the people of Zambia. Zambians, you need to listen to me now. The Government wants to squeeze you to the end.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: After it squeezes you, I can assure you that in 2024 –

Mr Mbao: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbao: Mr Speaker, I say sorry to my brother for forcing me to render this point of order, which is critical.

Madam Speaker, –

Mr Speaker, sorry–

Hon. Opposition Member: Madam Speaker?

Mr Mbao: Take your time.

Mr Speaker, you have guided the hon. Member that let us look at the figures as they are. Now, is he in order to disregard your advice and continue to say we are going to borrow K83 billion when the plan is here (Whilst flipping the Budget Speech booklet)?

Rev. Katuta: Read!

Mr Mbao: Mr Speaker, of the amounts to borrow, K17 billion will be from external financing and K16.3 billion will be domestic financing. So, where is he getting the K83 billion? Are we not supposed to be dealing with the documents?

Mr Speaker, guide us, please, so that we remain factual because the nation is watching us. Everyone is looking at what we are doing here. The hon. Member has informed us that he is now debating as a professional accountant. How can you debate as a professional accountant without basing your arguments on facts on the ground? He is holding that book, but what is in that book and what he is saying are two different things.

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us avoid debating whilst seated. Let us ensure that we debate concerning the Budget Speech. I advise that we take time to understand it to avoid going out of context.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia should know that the intention o this Government is to squeeze them to the end.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Once they are squeezed, when elections are near, they are going to release the valve thinking that Zambians forget. Let me tell you, the people of Zambia will remember that in 2023, mealie meal cost over K300 across the country. The people of Zambia will remember that in 2023 –

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Just like I have said, let us ensure that we debate the Budget Speech to avoid the animosity that is trying to brew. If we go out of context, the other side reacts. So, let us ensure that we stick to the Budget Speech.

You may continue hon. Member.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, let me tell you that this budget is, in fact, understated by K66 billion.

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: This Budget, according to my professional calculation is K244 billion.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: I am compelled to rise on this one

Mr Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 says that a Member shall never, or should not impute negative motives. So, is the Member on the Floor in order to start inciting and imputing that the Government’s motive under this Budget is to squeeze the people? He is speculating. Is the Member in order to continue speculating that this Budget is all about squeezing the people of Zambia?

Mr Mukosa interjected.

Mr Mufalali: Is the hon. Member in order to start vying and pretending that he understands this Budget, yet he is failing to understand it?

I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us ensure that we debate according to the rules that guide us. We are well informed that imputing and inciting is not allowed. So, as you debate, to avoid going out of context, ensure that we confine our debates to the Budget Speech, other than just expressing our views that are neither here nor there. Let us ensure that we stick to the Budget Speech.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, I was concluding and was saying that this is a deliberately understated Budget. The Minister understated his Budget by K66 billion. I will find a platform on which to talk about that.

Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia will remember the effects of this Budget. They will remember the effects of this Budget that once upon a time, there was a Budget they hoped would change the trajectory from focusing on foreigners and rich people, but them. Alas, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: ... they were squeezed to the extent of taxing mobile money transactions.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Mr Speaker, I am grateful on behalf of the people of Luena, ….

Mr Kafwaya left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Amutike: Certified accountant, where are you going?

Mr Anakoka: … for the opportunity to debate Budget. I recognise that the hon. Member who is just from debating is denying himself the opportunity to be schooled on how to understand the Budget.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, the Budget that was presented to this House by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was themed, “Unlocking Economic Potential.” It was not done in a vacuum. He made it clear that there are six macroeconomic objectives that are going to be pursued in delivering this Budget. For the sake of our friends who just seek to talk about and debate a Budget in pejorative terms without actually reading through the nitty gritty, we will take this time to outline those six objectives. Which are:

attain a real GDP growth rate of at least 4.8 per cent;

reduce inflation to between 6 per cent and 8 per cent in the medium-term target band;

maintain international reserves above three months of import cover;

increase domestic revenue to at least 22 per cent of the GDP;

reduce fiscal deficit to 4.8 per cent of the GDP; and

limit domestic borrowing to no more than 2.5 per cent of the GDP.

Mr Speaker, I appreciate that it is not easy to understand how these things then get to be elaborated in the Budget. Some of our hon. Colleagues are just seeking, …

Mr Amutike: Irrelevance!

Mr Anakoka: … political relevance and claiming that this Budget is not addressing the issues of job creation, economic growth and the issues of the stomach. Nothing could be farther from the truth. However, if one does not want to follow what has been presented as hope and help for the people of Zambia in this Budget, they will take the attitude of wanting to fight against the goodies in it, which are for the benefit of the people. There are only two kinds of people who will fight against this Budget. The first category is people who do not understand what the hon. Minister is talking about. The second one is the enemies of the people whom they claim to be serving. Who will oppose this Budget that is seeking to get close to 2 million children back in school? A person who stands on the Floor and says that the Budget is of no consequence to the children of this nation, …

Mr Amutike: He is an enemy of the people.

Mr Anakoka: … being an enemy of the people number one.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, who will oppose the development of farm blocks with 200 km of powerlines to be constructed, 500 million to be invested there to improve infrastructure, …

UPND Members: Enemy of the people!

Mr Anakoka: … and somebody wants to say that it is not addressing the issues of unlocking economic potential for the people.

Rev. Katuta interjected.

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, when you look at the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which, surprisingly, some of our hon. Colleagues without even accounting for the 2022 CDF allocation, want to claim that they have just received K7 million, therefore, they are unable to do anything. What have they done with the 2022 CDF allocation?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, in case they have not read since the culture of reading seems to be alien to some of them, the Constituency Development Fund Act requires that you bring returns on how you have utilised the funds before you get your next funding. So, let us account to the people how we have utilized the money that was entrusted to us in 2022.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta interjected.

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, more than 40,000 youths are back to getting skills through the CDF skills development funding.

Mr Speaker, we have constructed classrooms and there are more than 20,000 children who are now sitting under a roof that is decent for education. However, somebody comes to the Floor of this House and says that this Budget is not addressing the needs of the people. I think people can seek political relevance but they should not do so by misleading people. Zambians are not as dumb as some of our hon. Colleagues wish to make us believe; they know where they have come from. They know that without free education, there were more than a million children who were not going to school. In just a year of the introduction of free education, we have had more than a million children back in the classroom, and they will have an opportunity to make a life for themselves. Anyone who wants to fight against a Budget that is delivering such goodies is an enemy of the people.

Mr Speaker, probably, we should not be surprised that this Budget is agitating some of our hon. Colleagues because it is a carpet pulled from under their feet. They had an opportunity to do these things but we understand that it is not an easy thing. You require competence in order to implement a Budget as brave and forward looking as this one. So, all they can do now is seek to demean the Government and make wild allegations. It is surprising that even just the figures that are there in plain on how much will be borrowed, someone picks up a completely wrong document. I do not even know what my hon. Colleague was looking at and started claiming that the Government was going to borrow US$83 billion. Which Budget was he listening to and which one was he reading? In terms of the figures for borrowing, the Government is targeting to work within the 2.5 per cent borrowing limits of the GDP. That target is important because in order for us to achieve the 4.8 per cent target economic growth in the GDP we need to have a synchronised approach to the way we implement our economic policies.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Luena, I am fully in support of this Budget.

Mr Amutike: And the people of Mongu!

Mr Anakoka: The people of Mongu Central, Mwandi, Kaputa, Shangombo and Nkana are equally happy to hear that the CDF has been increased from K28.3 million to K30.6 million because more will be done in their constituencies.

With these few words, Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you very much and I support this Budget.

I thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Amutike: Continue!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Lubozha: Are you the only one who stays in Lusaka?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised by the hon. Member for Nkana.

Mr B. Mpundu: Mr Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order No.65, which dictates that we must precisely speak the truth. The disbursement of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) according to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has been kept timely on quarters. My point of order is on the hon. Member who has just finished debating, who makes an insinuation that the disbursement of the CDF is now based on acquittals. When you acquit, you are paid, …

Hon. UPND Members: That is not what he said!

Mr B. Mpundu: … that is the insinuation he has made.

Mr Speaker, the verbatim is on the record. The hon. Member who has just finished speaking said that some of those who are claiming that they have not been given money for 2023 under the CDF have not even acquitted. That insinuation suggests that for you to be given the CDF allocation in 2023, you must first of all make an acquittal for 2022.

Mr Andeleki: What is your point of order?

Mr B. Mpundu: Is he in order to mislead himself and the nation?

Mr Speaker, even you know, as an Hon. Member, that disbursement is not based on acquittals. The hon. Minister told this House that disbursement is quarterly. It is timed. Even he, who has implemented some projects for 2022, has not been given any money in 2023 other than the K5.9 million.

Is he in order to mislead himself, this House and the people of Zambia?

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member you have sufficiently debated your point of order.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Lumezi, an opportunity to speak to this Budget Speech. Permit me to mention that I will start this very speech with a quote from Steven Morrissey:

“I am not very good at being dull”

Mr Speaker, the theme for this budget reads “Unlocking Economic Potential”. These are jokes. This budget is locking economic potential. This budget agrees on page 2 of this speech that copper prices declined to an average of US$8,589 from US$9,084. This Budget Speech is not speaking to the economic outlook for the year 2024. This Budget talks of unlocking potential, not talking to having an unlimited number of Permanent Secretaries (PS) appointed for special duties earning a salary for being called special duties. It is a consumption budget.

Mr Speaker, this Budget talks about the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), and the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development has received requests of more than K30 billion, but the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is going to give him K391,900,075. If he is going to create employment, it has to be in the private sector and not employing 4,000 teachers and 2,000 nurses. That is a joke of the century.

Mr Speaker, they cannot be boasting of what the Budget Speech says on page 14. I do not know why, but abasambila tamufwa imwe, tamwakwata amano. We now want to give you solutions.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: Yes, we are giving you solutions.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Munir Zulu, let us be mindful of our language. At times it is no necessary to use inappropriate language. We are all adults in here. Let us ensure that we use the appropriate language, and withdraw that word.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Which one have you withdrawn?

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw abasambila tabakwata amano.

Mr Speaker, on page 14 of this speech, it says that CEEC disbursed K660 million to over 77,000 beneficiaries. The figure of K660 million looks huge for people to benefit from, but when you divide 77,000 beneficiaries into K660 million, you are giving out K8,571, and we are saying we are empowering people. We are jokers. We should have done better. We must be serious. Speaking to the future, we must be serious. This Budget is locking economic potential.

Mr Speaker, we cannot be spending so much time, three hours, listening to a speech that is misleading the people of Zambia that there is K660 million disbursed to 77,000 people, when we are just giving out K8,571. These are jokes. There was no need.

Mr Speaker, when we talk of mines on page 10, it saying that production declined mainly due to operational challenges. As we are sited in this House, two trucks of sugilite have been impounded in Mansa, Luapula Province. There is no mention of sugilite in this Budget Speech. The Zambian people are fed-up of being told about copper and manganese. Where suddenly or miraculously, this speech is saying there was low grade copper and manganese. When did the Ministry of Finance And National Planning become experts in telling us why copper sales have reduced or gone down on the global market?

Mr Speaker, the Government is not mentioning sugilite. Who is benefiting from sugilite? All we know is that when trucks are impounded at a police station, sugilite and lithium vanish and we want to blame the reduced price of copper on the international market.

Mr Speaker, in my preamble, I had mentioned that this budget is not speaking to the economic outlook of the year 2024 because we have limited our views and thoughts to copper and manganese. We are not talking about sugilite, and lithium in the Southern Province. Why? The people of Zambia deserve better.

Mr Speaker, when we go to agriculture on page 6, crop and livestock production has generally been below potential. The excuses that have been given on agriculture are lame. How I wish these where being told to children at kindergarten. You cannot tell the people of Zambia to grow soybeans because you have found a market in Chin. A year later, you are telling the people of Zambia that we are not buying soybeans. In Lumezi last year, we were buying soybeans at K15. Today, we are buying it at K5. People did not grow maize. This is a Government with a Minister of Defence announcing that we have received US$15 million down payment from the Congolese and then it tells us that there is shortage of maize because of weather or climatic conditions. Global warming should not be an excuse.

Mr Speaker, the shortage of maize has nothing to do with global warming or the Russia/ Ukraine war. That is not true. It is as a result of people making wrong decisions and incompetence. You cannot sell food to your neighbours before you feed your own children. Maize should have been a preserve of the people of Zambia.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, Standing Order No, 65 is very explicit. The hon. Member on the Floor, who has not read this speech or maybe even listened to it, is alleging that there was no mention of sugilite in the speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I do not know where he is getting that.

Mr Speaker, regarding mining, on page 11 of the speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, he said:

“Madam, with the envisaged resolution of challenges at Mopani and Konkola Copper Mines as well as the possible coming on board of new mines, the mining sector is expected to boost production in 2024. This will support our goal of achieving the 3 million metric tonnes of copper production per annum by 2032.”

Mr Kapyanga: Where is sugilite?

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: I will continue. It is there.

Laughter

Hon. PF Member interjected.

Mr Mufalali: It is there.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Regarding sugilite, I am getting there.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, on page 12, in paragraph 68, it reads:

“Madam, to enhance regulatory oversight in the mining sector, Government will bring a Bill in this session to operationalise the Minerals Regulation Commission. The Commission will address, among others, issues pertaining to production reporting, mineral content analysis, illegal mining and illicit trade of minerals.”

Mr Speaker, on page 11, in paragraph 67 it reads;

Hon. PF Members interjected.

Interruption

Mr Mufalali: Yes it is, here.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, may you resume your seat.

Hon. Mufalali resumed his seat.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member let us ensure that we confine our debate to the Budget Speech. You can proceed, but let us ensure that we confine our debate to the Borrowing Plan and the Budget.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, permit me to mention that as I started my debate, I cited a quotation.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Please wait, may I have the Budget Speech from the Clerks-at-the-Table.

The Budget Speech was handed over to Mr Second Deputy Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, if you read on page 11, paragraph 67 of the Budget Speech, it says:

“Madam Speaker, Government has declared all minerals as strategic for the country's economic prosperity. In this regard, Government will enhance the exploration and trade of these mineral resources. So far, preliminary geological surveys for lithium in Mapatizya and sugilite in Chembe have been conducted.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu rose.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, may you resume your seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, just like I guided, let us ensure that we debate the Budget Speech. The issue that the point of order was raised on was the omission of the sugilite that the hon. Member alleged that the hon. Minister never spoke about it. It is here in the Budget Speech.

So, hon. Member, let us stick to the Budget Speech and the Borrowing Plan.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, progressively speaking, you will need to be engaging in debates.

Hon. Government Members: What did he say?

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, you need to engage us in debates because you are now being unfair to us. It is him (pointing at Hon Mufalali) who raised a point of order, but then it is you debating with me when I do not have the authority to debate with you.

Interruptions

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I cannot engage you in the debate. I cannot! The rules do not allow me to debate with you, I have to debate with them (pointing at the hon. Government Members). How do I debate with you? You are the Presiding Officer, you are the referee.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, may you resume your seat just for a moment. How I intervened in your debate was that when you went off your way, you were alleging that sugilite was not mentioned during the presentation of the Speech. So, the hon. Member rose on a point of order, but at that point, he could not substantiate his point of order because the page he had flipped was the other side. So, I continue guiding, let us ensure that we follow the Budget Speech.

You may continue.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, permit me to briefly speak to the CEEC. Why this Budget is locking economic potential. They cannot allocate K398 million to CEEC. What we should have done was to allocate more than K3 billion that has gone to the CDF that we are not receiving timely to attend to young entrepreneurs. Had we allocated even K10 billion and provided for consultancy in each district, we would be creating a million jobs per annum and not the 4,000 jobs that someone is preaching about.

Mr Speaker, in the interest of time, I must tell the people of Zambia that they must now tighten their belts. Next year will be worse than this year. If it is worse for their own members, I feel sorry for the people of Zambia outside.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important debate. I am a bearer of the message from the people of Zambia and the Patriotic Front (PF) party, which sponsored me to come to Parliament. They do not support this Budget as it does not meet their aspirations.

Mr Speaker, what Zambia needs is a transformational Budget. Let me remind our colleagues that this is their third Budget ever since they assumed power. On page 1 paragraph 7 of the Budget Speech, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning goes further to mock the people of Zambia. Ordinarily, this should be the achievements of the entire five-year term, but this has happened in just two years. It is in the last two years that the people of Zambia have been subjected to the harshest suffering in the history of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, when the Minister of Finance and National Planning says this has been achieved in two which could have been achieved in five years, it is a mockery to the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the Central Statistical Office Report for 2022, indicates that poverty levels have risen to 8 per cent. What that means is that, 8 per cent of our people are suffering. This Government, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning comes, here, with a Budget that does not include those who are suffering. It does not put remedial measures in place for those who are suffering at the moment.

Mr Speaker, the Vice-President of our Republic, just last week, said that the Government would not allow its people to die of hunger. If the Government cannot allow that, why is the Government not putting subsidies in place to save the people who cannot afford a bag of mealie meal, which is at K350, and a litre of fuel which is at K30?

Hon. Opposition Member: Mockery!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, it is mockery of the worst kind.

Mr Speaker, prices of essential commodities have risen and this Budget does not seem to have any plans for our people who are suffering in Chitulika, in Kamwanya, in Mtendere, and Kapoto in Kitwe. The economic transformation that this Government is talking is a hoax. Actually, we need to bring a Motion or Bill to this House to urge the Government to withdraw from the International Monitory Fund (IMF) Agreement. It is the one that has caused so much misery to our people. Our people deserve better. Let me remind them that next year, they will be presenting their last Budget and that they are exiting.

Mr Mbao: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, in 1991, the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government was the strongest Government in Southern Africa, but the prices of essential commodities made Dr Kaunda run into a chicken run.

Rev Katuta: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, when we talk of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) in our agriculture sector, it was on the Floor of the House where we brought a Motion urging the Government to introduce an agriculture bank. That Motion went through, and instead of establishing it, the Government has come up with a story of a credit window. The Government is even mentioning it.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, how many of our people will afford those loans that the Government wants to introduce without any proper mechanism in place? It is a copy and paste of budgets designed by foreigners. This Budget has been written by foreigners who do not understand the suffering of our people.

Mr Mwene, Mr Amutike and Mr Kangombe rose on a points of order.

Mr Emmanuel Tembo: Mr Speaker, on a point of procedure.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya rose.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: The template of this Budget was written by foreigners who do not understand the –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Hon. Simushi rose on a point of order first.

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, I am able to see from here, hon. Member. I do not know why you are arguing with me. I do not know why you like arguing. I am the one who is able to see who has indicated earlier and not yourself.

Mr Simushi: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order on the hon. Member who is on the Floor. Standing Order 65 talks about us being factual as we debate on the Floor of the House. Now, the hon. Member debating is talking about this Government not providing subsidies. I think this is a very wrong conception altogether because the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) is subsidised. Free education is subsidised.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi: So where is he getting the notion that the Government is not providing subsidies and that the Budget has been written by foreigners?

Mr Kangombe: Can he bring the evidence on the Table.

Mr Simushi: Is he in order to mislead himself, this House and the rest of the nation? Even if he wants to be seen to be relevant out there, is he in order to mislead this country in that manner?

Mr Amutike: He has not read the Budget.

Mr Simushi: Thank you and I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpika is completely out of order for misleading himself and the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, what I was saying is that under the Maputo Declaration, there is a programme called CAADP, to which our country is a signatory. It is called Comprehensive African Agriculture Development Programme. Under this programme, every government is under obligation to allocate funds to a tune of 10 per cent of the national budget towards agriculture development.

Mr Speaker, this money goes towards research, retraining of officers and other things. As I was saying, our people cannot afford to repay those loans that have been put in place without a proper system to identify and also deal with recoveries from our people. This is the more reason we are urging this Government not to reduce the number of beneficiaries under FISP.

Mr Speaker, even the issue of claiming that the Government has delivered farming inputs is a hoax. Not a single farmer has received a bag of fertiliser up to today. So, to whom have the farming inputs been delivered, if I may ask?

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, politics of deception must not be here in the House of the people. The people of Zambia want services to be delivered. The Zambian people want their lives to change. Why should our people continue suffering, like the way they are suffering?

Mr Speaker, our hon. Colleagues are talking about the employment of 4,500 teachers and a few nurses. We cannot reduce the entire Government to employment in just two sectors when we have 116,000 of our youths graduating annually from various colleges.

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: Where are others going when you can just start at 4,000? That is a joke.

Mr Speaker, under the UNIP Government when we were running our own mines, there was zero unemployment rate. Vehicles were waiting for our people to jump on and go and work. We need to start running our mines. However, you bring in Vedanta Resources Limited, a company that has been rejected by the people on the Copperbelt. Then there are people who are claiming that the people of the Copperbelt –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! Order, hon. Member!

You are referring to a company that cannot defend itself here.

Hon. Opposition Members: It is in the Budget.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us ensure that we stick to the Budget Speech and the Borrowing Plan. Let us avoid making assertions.

You may continue.

Mr Munsanje: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, what I was saying is that as a nation, we are saying that 71 per cent of our economic activities come from the mines. Then the Government should get involved in mining. Why does the Government want to wrestle back Mopani Copper Mines from the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH)? Why does the Government want to take back Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) to Vedanta Resources Limited? This is a company that is bankrupt and has been misleading our people on the Copperbelt. The people on the Copperbelt should know that the PF is with them. We will stand with them and stand by them.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: We will ask the Zambian people to be with the people on the Copperbelt. This uncaring Government must not – In 2026, Vedanta Resources Limited will go back to India.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: We do not want a company that will be punishing the people.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, we stand with those who are suffering and cannot afford a bag of mealie meal.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for recognising me, on behalf the good people of Solwezi East, to add a voice –

Rev. Katuta interjected.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chienge, avoid debating while seated.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You can continue, hon. Member.

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for recognising me to add my voice to the discussion on the Budget Address, which was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning under the theme, “Unlocking Economic Potential”, on 29^th September, 2023.

Mr Speaker, may I begin by stating the conclusion by the hon. Minister. It says:

“Madam Speaker, the journey to a better Zambia is a collective one. It requires active participation of all citizens. Together, we can overcome the challenges we face today. Together, we can build the Zambia we want. Together, we shall benefit from our wealth and prosperity. And together, we will march towards our Vision 2030 of becoming a prosperous middle-income nation.”

Mr Speaker, this is a call to everyone to participate. It is quite disturbing to hear those people who do not have a vision discarding this wonderful Budget Speech.

Mr Speaker, the focus for the 2024 Budget is to promote economic growth through enhanced private sector investment. We have seen this demonstrated already through Public Private Partnerships (PPP) when it comes to road construction of the Mufulira Road, Ndola/Lusaka Road and many other roads. We heard about the signing of the concession agreement for the Lumwana/Kambimba Road, and agreements for many other roads yet to be signed. That is already a demonstration of the private sector involvement.

Mr Speaker, the focus again for the 2024 Budget is about production and productivity. We have seen this already commencing through the agricultural sector by the injection of US$300 million in the farm blocks for various services in terms of road network, electricity as well as the construction of the centres for skills development. We have also seen it in the livestock sector through extension services. The hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock was talking about the extension services.

Mr Chikote indicated assent.

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, under the fisheries sector, Mushindamo has benefited already because we now have fish farming taking place in the area. That is increased production and productivity.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, the focus for the 2024 Budget is about improvement in public service delivery and we have seen this already in the area of health. The hon. Minister acknowledged the fact that indeed there is inadequacy when it comes to the provision of medical supplies. It has actually been stated in the speech that 135 mini hospitals will be constructed in 2024.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, we have been told that, indeed, the maternity annexes are being constructed and more will be constructed in 2024.

Mr Speaker, 42,000 health kits were already purchased and we expect more because these will run up to April or May next year. The Government is already planning that before that time, more kits should be purchased.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: There is already a call to the sector to invest more in the pharmaceutical manufacturing for our domestic companies, and that will reduce the cost of drugs and even make them more available in our health facilities. We have seen already that, indeed, the recruitment of health workers –

Mr Speaker, the Budget Address talked about the mining sector that has already been talked about. The people of the North-Western Province are happy that after the resolution of the issues at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and Mopani Copper Mines, the issues at Kasenseli Gold Mine will be resolved. We will have more job created in addition to those in the Nickel Mine in the North-Western.

Mr Speaker, we heard what is happening in the tourism sector. We have heard that, already, Zambia Airways has procured a Boeing 373, which is already a promotion of tourism.

Mr Speaker, in the education sector, needless to say, we have already seen the recruitment of teachers, why, because education is priority.

Mr Speaker, in the Budget, when it comes to water and sanitation, we have been told that 634 boreholes were drilled in 2023, 1,000 more are yet to be completed, and 1,374 are earmarked for drilling in the 2024 Budget. There are more benefits in this speech, but I do not want to bore you with more words. However, let me end by saying that in the 2024 Annual Borrowing Plan, the Government has outlined how it is going to borrow money, showing that it is transparent by bringing the plan to this House. It shows how prudent the Government is in sustainable borrowing. Not where we saw people borrowing in order to put money in their pockets. That is what I call, umungulu, ukwenda umungulu, waponena mu ngungulu ne ngulu shakwingila. Meaning you have no plan; chimbwi no plan because you are just borrowing to eat.

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Samakayi: Mungulu.

Mr Mukosa: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on a point of order. Standing Order No. 65 requires us to say things that are factual and that we can also substantiate because we are dealing with serious matters here.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor who is debating, and I am following the debate on behalf of the people of Chinsali, is suggesting that there are people in Government who borrowed and put the money in the pockets. There is no evidence to back what he said.

Is he in order to debate on that trajectory, Mr Speaker?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think on this matter, I reserve my ruling ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: ... because I never heard it.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: Mr Speaker, we saw people –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Translate that word you spoke in Bemba.

Mr Katakwe: Umungulu means having no vision; like a headless chicken moving aimlessly. This is what we saw; people borrowing anyhow. When money is borrowed, it is a seed; it has to be planted in order to produce. In fact, Mr Speaker, I met a young man who said that in the previous regime, ‘they eated the seed and runned away’.

Laughter

Mr Katakwe: That is English. Meaning they ate the seed and they ran away in 2021.

Mr Speaker, borrowing must be prudent. This Government has actually shown that we are going to be prudent by making this Borrowing Plan transparent to the Members of Parliament in order for them to approve. Borrowing must be sustained. This is in accordance with Borrowing Plan for 2022, which this House enacted. This transparency is very important. It is like you come and you start greeting somebody with a folded hand. We saw someone who demonstrated that by putting a hand in the pocket and removing something. We saw it; it was hidden. So, it is not where you are borrowing and the other hand does not know what is being borrowed. This House is transparent and this is what the minister came to do. This is what the Budget Speech is emphasising.

Mr Speaker, the people of the North-Western Province, Zambia, and Mushindamo, in particular, are so happy about this Budget Speech because it unveils the details that this country, indeed, which was in intensive care unit (ICU) in the previous regime, has now been resuscitated. We are now able to breathe and this is the way to go. I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. I want to state that the people of Kabwata Constituency do actually support this Budget because it speaks to the aspiration of many Zambians

Mr Speaker, what is the theme of this budget. The theme is, “Unlocking Economic Potential”. Maybe, the word that we need understand is ‘potential’. What is potential? Potential is the hidden ability. Hidden ability is what we are unlocking through this budget. In my own understanding of this theme is, actually, unlocking economic hidden ability. We are trying to unlock the hidden ability in the teachers who were trained by our colleagues five years ago, but they did not get employment. We are trying to identify the hidden potential in our colleagues who were trained in the health sector ten years ago, but they could not get employment. This is what we are doing. We are identifying the hidden potential or the ability in the people who were trained as accountants. The Government is going employ the human resource and accountants as supporting staff in the Ministry of Education. We are simply trying to identify the hidden economic potential in our colleagues. This is what we are doing.

Mr Speaker, allow me to talk about job creation. This is exactly what this Budget is speaking to. The hon. Minister came to the Floor of the House and said that the Government was going to create jobs. This is exactly what we are doing. We are seeing economic hidden potential being unlocked, we are seeing assembly plants for mobile cell phones coming on board here in Zambia for the first time, we are seeing electric motor cycle’s coming on board. We are simply unlocking the hidden economic potential in our country.

Mr Speaker, in agriculture, I want to say that the food industry is one of the industries that is going boom and beat all these other sectors in the world. Today, people are celebrating information technology (IT). However, the food industry is the one that is going to overtake the IT business. If you look at the two countries, Ukraine and Russia, today they are at war, and they have made the world, including Africa, to stagger with food shortages. This means that there is potential in agriculture.

Mr Speaker, Zambia has 75 million hectares of land and out of that, we are only utilising 7 million hectares, which is 10 per cent of the agricultural land. This Budget is speaking to many Zambians that we unlock the hidden economic ability in agriculture. This is what we are doing.

Mr Speaker, if we can manage to engage or create many farming blocks, we are simply doing what is right. We are unlocking the hidden economic potential in many farming blocks. For instance, the mechanisation of farming blocks will enhance productivity in our different farming blocks. Farming is a big business. If we can enhance farming, we are going to make Zambia one of the best countries that is going to sustain agriculture.

Mr Speaker, allow me to also talk about the cotton industry. We saw the incentive that was given to the cotton industry. This is going to enhance job creation. So, ten years tax free to the cotton industry will ensure that many companies open in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, as I had indicated from the beginning that we are simply unlocking the hidden potential in this country. So, we are also looking at unlocking the hidden potential that is in people who are living with disabilities. It is high time that whenever an advertisement for employment is placed in newspapers, it should also simply talk to people who are living with disabilities also. That is what we are talking about.

Mr Speaker, education is another sector that is going to help this country unlock the hidden potential of many Zambians. Look at what we are doing through the funding that has been given to the feeding programme for children. Only K39 million was allocated as of last year, today, as we are speaking, K100 million has been allocated to the feeding programme. This means that we are going to train children who have a healthy mind. This is what we are doing.

Mr Speaker, allow us to also talk about the hidden economic potential that has been lying idle in the road sector. For instance, in the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) projects that we are going to undertake, we are going to unlock many hidden potentials in places like Katete or Mwinilunga so that Zambia can now become the trading hub in Africa.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to talk about the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). Yes, the money that has been allocated to the CEEC is about K396 million. This money should be translated or show statistics of how many people who are living with disabilities have been empowered. My brother there, hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprises, let us ensure that people who are living with disabilities are catered for and are also given these funds because they are meant for every Zambian.

Mr Speaker, with these few words I want to say thank you very much.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Motion which is before this august House. I will just go straight to page 7, and I quote:

“Madam Speaker, Government recognises that some of our citizens have been hit hard by the rise in mealie meal prices. To mitigate the escalation in prices of mealie meal, the Government is implementing several measures to boost supply and stabilise the price.”

Mr Speaker, I have a question. For me, there is no solution. Looking at the years, I was expecting the hon. minister to go further to give long and short term solutions.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Chala: You can question but let me say so.

Mr Speaker, what people are expecting –

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Chala: For mealie meal prices to come down, the minister must tackle the cost of production.

Mr Simumba: Yes!

Mr Chala: Once the cost of production is tackled, the mealie meal price will come down either in the long term or short term. How can you reduce this cost of production? The best way to do that is to ensure that those who are importing fertiliser are given tax incentives. So that, when they bring in fertiliser –

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Mr Chala: No, I am debating.

Interruptions

Mr Chala: You know, those who are importing fertiliser and those –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us not disturb the hon. debating.

Mr Chala: Mr Speaker, those who are importing the material for making or producing fertilisers here, in Zambia, must be given tax incentives so that when they produce it here, a bag of fertiliser might cost K600 instead of K850. This means that the last producer of the maize that we are talking about will do it at a cheaper cost.

Mr Simumba: Yes!

Mr Chala: When the time comes for the Government to announce the floor price, it will consider that the price of fertiliser was cheaper because it was tax-free. Why should we not do that? If we can give some incentives in other areas like the mines and those who want to come and start assembling motorbikes. Why can the Government not do that on behalf of the majority of Zambians who are suffering? Why?

Mr Simumba: Get this point!

Mr Chala: That is what we should do. Do not just politicise things. Get one or two things if they can help our people. Okay.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is on Public-Private Partnership (PPP). It is a good move. The Treasury will not be under pressure, but on the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway, it is a mess. It is a failed project.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Chala: Why it is a failure? Listen. If the Government had to negotiate to allow the developer to bring his money to fund the project, we were going to benefit more. Why? If they had come with the money, they were going to convert that money to Zambian currency and our Kwacha was not going to be under pressure.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: As it is, the Kwacha will be under pressure because the financiers of this project are you and I by what we contribute to NAPSA and the Work Men’s Compensation Board. We do not contribute to NAPSA in dollars, we contribute in Kwacha. Meaning that NAPSA is going to convert the Kwacha to the dollar and the Kwacha will continue being under pressure. So, if the Government had to negotiate that way, probably the pressure that our Kwacha has against the dollar might be reduced or be something else. So, that is what I am trying to say. There is nothing wrong with the PPP. It is a good idea; like what the Government has done in other areas like in my constituency. That is what is going on.

Sir, the developer is bringing in his own money. When we look at the Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway and then say that the Government is not involved. We are involved because the money is coming from the Government institutions. It is our money. So, we are part of supporting or financing that road. So, what I am saying is that the idea behind what is happening in my constituency is what should happen on this road if the developer can bring their cash.

Mr Speaker, although time is not with me, but I want to talk about the distribution of inputs under the Fertiliser Input Support Programme (FISP) in provinces is not there. For instance, in Luapula Province, there are only 64,000 people on the programme while other areas have been given 186,000 beneficiaries. Where is the equality? This information is with the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Budget Speech that was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, allow me to start by saying that I have a personal view of the Budget. According to the people of Muchinga, having analysed this Budget, it is a very progressive one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: Mr Speaker, this Budget is a very progressive one in the sense that it talks about many things that the people of Muchinga are lacking and, therefore, it gives hope that the people will get what they not gotten in the past, maybe, fifty years, including the last ten years. Muchinga has been in existence, but the people there have never gotten what they are expecting to get now based on the Budget that was presented.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, let me single out a few topics in the Budget. Let me talk about the infrastructure development which has been allocated up to K8.3 billion and this involves the construction of rural roads. In Muchinga, there are many bad feeder roads. So, from this Budget, we expect that the Teta/Kaseba, the Kashitu/Kundalumwansha, and the Lusiwashi/Power Station roads will be done. Even the upgrade of the Chibale Road will be done. So, why should we oppose such a good Budget?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: It is just logical that we have to support where we think we can have an advantage, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Shilefuma kwi?

Mr Chala: Mr Speaker, it is not a question of shilefuma kwi. When the Budget is presented, it is plan on how the Government is going to mobilise funds and use the funds on intended purposes.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu interjected.

We have been to school, Binwell, and not the school that you went to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala: I started school during the United National Independence Party (UNIP) time, so, …

Laughter

Mr Chala: … of course, I can speak better English and I think you can understand.

Mr Chala: Mr Speaker, there will be a great impact on the people in rural areas.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not do chimbuya on the Floor of the House.

Laughter

Mr Chala: Mr Speaker, well guided.

Sir, if what I have just elaborated is done, the impact will be very big on the people in rural areas because they will pay less in terms of transporting their farm produce and, therefore, they will have something to save.

Sir, when we talk about poverty, it is not a thing made by the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the Government. Poverty has been there since time immemorial. What we are trying to see now is that the Government is working hard to change the livelihoods of people. With this Budget, we expect many things to change. We expect good results for our people.

Mr Speaker, it is a fact that everyone who is alive will attest to it that poverty has been there and people have been poor. It is not today that people have become poor. However, we have a Government that is trying to change the people’s lives. We should look at how many people are being employed.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr E. Banda: Mr Speaker, just in the 2024 Budget, we are told that about 4,000 health workers will be employed and a number of workers in the education sector. Look at what happened in 2022, more than 30,000 teachers and 11,000 health workers were employed.

Mr Speaker, when we look at the recent recruitments, all those people who have been employed are now going to be earning money and leading a better life. Those are people who were destitute. Some of them completed their education ten years ago, but now they have hope. This is the worth supporting. We do not just support what does not make any sense to the people, but support what we think is changing the people’s lives.

Mr Speaker, the increment in the allocation for the Farmer Input Support Program (FISP) gives hope that a number of people will join as beneficiaries, and this is the only way that the Government can alleviate poverty in rural areas because that is what we want.

Mr Speaker, I have to support this Budget as a representative of a rural constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Banda: Mr Speaker, all I would want to say is that the Budget is very good. However, we are looking forward to the proper implementation through the line ministries. The hon. Ministers allocated money, please, consider us in the rural areas. Those responsible for roads should know that we need roads. We really have bad roads. I wish the hon. Minister of Health was here. We need a level 1 hospital in Serenje. Let us look at Lusaka, there are hospitals in Chilenje, Chawama, Chipata compound, Chingwere, and there is Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital, Maina Soko Military Hospital and the University Teaching Hospitals (UTH), but a place like Serenje has what we cannot even describe, yet the population has grown to above 320,000 people. The ministry should consider us because we also need to have a hospital befitting the status of Serenje, especially since it is along the Great North Road, where many things happen that I cannot mention.

Mr Speaker, having said this, I also want to talk to the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock that in Serenje we have a lot of land, but we do not have animals. I urge the hon. Minister that from the allocated budget, he should come and do animal restocking in Serenje because that will change the people’s lives. The people of Serenje are not lazy. They need help from the Government. This Government has shown that it has what it takes to change the livelihoods of people.

Mr Speaker, having said this, I think, I beg to rest, and finally the people of Muchinga support the Budget 100 per cent.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I am very grateful for this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House that was ably moved by hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I will start with agriculture. On behalf of the people of Mpongwe, we appreciate the Government for the floor price of maize in the 2022/2023 Farming Season. The price of maize has motivated the farmers in Mpongwe to produce more in the coming season. As I speak today, there is a shortage of hybrid seed in Mpongwe in all the shops, which means that farmers have bought seed and fertiliser. This is the motivation of the farmers.

Mr Speaker, most commercial farmers in Mpongwe moved away from growing maize because the price of maize was too low. This time around Zambeef Products PLC has promised to cultivate many hectares for maize in the coming season. So, we expect a lot of maize to be grown in the next farming season.

Mr Speaker, Zambeef Products PLC is constructing the biggest milling plant in Mpongwe, which will be producing flour and mealie meal. This will reduce the price of mealie meal in the country.

Mr Speaker, Mpongwe has potential in agriculture. The average per hectare that a commercial farmer can produce is 9 tonnes per hectare. This is a motivation to the people of Mpongwe and Zambia at large.

Mr Speaker, the introduction of the credit window to farmers will enable them to grow more because most farmers, who produce maize in Mpongwe or Zambia, do not rely on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). They rely on fertiliser, which they buy on a cash basis. So, the credit window will motivate farmers to grow more maize. In the long run, the price of mealie meal will be reduced.

Mr Speaker, the Government has put aside some money to improve farming blocks in the country. This will also improve the agriculture sector. The Government is also encouraging farmers to go into irrigation farming. Already, Zambeef Products PLC has started irrigation farming of maize. This, also, will contribute to the reduction of mealie meal prices in the country. We are doing all this because we want the people of Zambia to appreciate the Government.

Mr Speaker, let me go to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF is a game changer. In Mpongwe, the projects that we did with the 2022 CDF allocation surpass the projects that were done from 2011 to 2021.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, this Government means well for the people of Zambia. The increase of CDF in the 2024 Budget means that more projects will be done and more beneficiaries will be added to the list of grants and loans. The CDF is working wonders in our communities.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, let me go to education. People thought that free education would not be a reality, but this time around, most of our children have gone back to school because of it.

Mr Speaker, as regards the School Feeding Programme, in rural areas, our children walk almost 10 km to go to school, but with the increase of the allocation to the School Feeding Programme, the pupil will go to school ...

Mr Chikote: Motivated!

Mr Ngowani: ... motivated that, I will find food at school.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngowani: That is a distinction to the New Dawn Government.

Mr Speaker, the increase to the bursary scheme means that many beneficiaries will benefit from the bursaries, which the Government is giving.

Mr Speaker, I want to appeal to the Minister of Education to consider decentralising the disbursement of bursaries and loans to other districts so that our rural constituencies or rural communities can also benefit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, on health, the increased allocation to the procurement of drugs and medical equipment in 2023, has already resulted in an improvement in the distribution of drugs in hospitals.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, the further increase in the 2024 Budget means that there is no hospital that will go without drugs. This Government means well for the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, on tourism, there is an increase in domestic tourism because of the good policies of this Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Amutike: The researcher!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Tourism to consider developing new tourist sites. For example, there is a tourist site in Mpongwe, Lake Kashiba, a natural wonder. We need to develop that site so that we increase domestic tourism in our country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: That Is how hon. Members should debate.

Mr Lubozha: Naupya!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, I want to talk about the pronouncement on the increment of allowances for councillors. I was once a councillor and I know how it feels so, that will motivate people to stand as councillors in our constituencies.

Mr Speaker, the appeal I want to make to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is that, at least, the ministry should consider building offices for councillors in their wards to make their work effective.

Mr B. Mpundu: Time is up.

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, lastly, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Ngowani: … I want to talk –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Ngowani: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

______

The House adjourned at 1907 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 5^th October, 2023.

_____________

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