Debates- Tuesday, 13th March, 2012

DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 13th March, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
_______________

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

MALAWIAN DELEGATION

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have two announcements to make.

Firstly, I wish to inform the House about the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of Hon. Henry Chimunthu Banda, Speaker, of the Malawian Parliament.

The Right Hon. Speaker is in Zambia to attend the 62nd Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Africa Region Executive Committee in his capacity as Regional Representative for Central Africa.

He is accompanied by the following hon. Persons:

1. Hon. Albert Doza Thindwa, MP;

2. His Excellency Mr David Chisala Bandawe, Malawian High Commissioner to Zambia;

3. Mr Henry Njolomole, Deputy Clerk, Parliamentary Services; and

4. Mr Victor Sibale, Special Assistant to Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I wish, therefore, on behalf of the Zambia National Assembly, to receive our guests and warmly welcome them in our presence.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

COMMONWEALTH DAY

The second announcement is a follow up to my earlier announcement regarding activities involving youths in commemoration of the Commonwealth Day which, you recall, fell on Monday, 12th March, 2012. Again, I would like to inform the House about the presence, in the Public Gallery, of youths representing the provinces of Zambia who took part in the Commonwealth Day activities. I wish, therefore, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive the youths and warmly welcome them in our presence. I also wish to thank them for the splendid cultural activities performed yesterday that depicted various cultures of the country.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DEATH OF POLICE OFFICERS/WITCHDOCTOR IN CHIKANTA

183. Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) what the facts were in the case in which the two police officers from Choma Police Station and a suspected witchdoctor were killed in Chikanta area in Kalomo District as reported in the public media, specifically the Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail of 6th March, 2012;

(b) what immediate measures the Government had taken or intends to take to guarantee the safety of police officers while on risky assignments; and

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the two officers from Choma Police Station died during an operation to arrest a named witchdoctor in Chief Chikanta’s area who was suspected to have murdered a neighbourhood watch association member.

Facts are that in the early morning of 5th March, 2012, a report was lodged at Choma Police Station to the effect that a named member of the neighbourhood watch association had been murdered by a witchdoctor. A report of the murder was also made by Chief Chikanta.

Upon receipt of the murder report, the officers at Choma Police Station mobilised six armed police officers to rush to the scene to apprehend the suspect. Upon arrival at the village, which is 165 km from Choma, the police officers left the vehicle at a distance of about 1 km from the scene of the crime. They were accompanied by an informer who knew the suspect.

A search was conducted, but the suspect was not found. Only the clients of the witchdoctor were found. Eventually, a man dressed in a red gown emerged from the western side of the village carrying a knife, an axe and a radio. The man was identified as the main suspect, the witchdoctor.

Mr Speaker, it is reported that when the witchdoctor saw the officers, he charged at them. He was ordered to stop by the police officers, but he did not stop. Instead, he charged at the officers and, consequently, a battle ensued between the police officers and the witchdoctor who was joined by his accomplices.

Mr Speaker, it is regretted that in the process of trying to apprehend the witchdoctor and his conspirators, a female police officer was stabbed twice in the chest and at the back and hacked with an axe near the left eye and died.

As officers battled with the witchdoctor and his accomplices, they ran out of ammunition. Therefore, they decided to withdraw and assemble where they had left the vehicle. It was at this moment that they discovered that one officer was missing. When they returned to the scene in the early hours of the following day, they found that the village had been deserted. A search was conducted and four bodies of the neighbourhood watch association member, the female police officer, the male police officer and that of the witchdoctor were found.

Mr Speaker, the four bodies were retrieved and deposited in Choma Hospital Mortuary. A postmortem of the bodies of the two officers was conducted and it revealed that they had died of knife and axe wounds. A postmortem was also conducted on the body of the neighbourhood watch member and results showed that his throat had been cut with a knife by the witchdoctor. As for the body of the witchdoctor, the postmortem has not yet been conducted because his relatives have not yet come forward.

Mr Speaker, the police are still hunting for the other key suspects who are on the run. These include the brother to the deceased witchdoctor. Investigations have also been intensified to bring the remaining suspects to book and establish more facts.

Mr Speaker, the Government intends to procure more protective gear, such as bulletproof vests and body armour to protect police officers in situations such as this one. In addition, the Government will not only intensify training for police officers, but also provide operational requisites and improve staffing levels at police stations.

Mr Speaker, the Government does not pay risk allowance to police officers as a distinct allowance. It was integrated in the basic salary for officers in 2004.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that, firstly, I am impressed that the checkpoint at Kafue Bridge has been retained. I am sure it has boosted the security situation in the Southern Province although I got concerned yesterday, when I was coming from Choma, to be subjected to more than ten …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is supposed to ask a supplementary question.

Mr Mweetwa: I thank you for your guidance. The hon. Minister has stated specifically that the police ran out of bullets and, therefore, ran away from the scene, leaving their colleagues behind. Speaking as a police officer, this situation of going to crime scenes with limited bullets is not new. What measures have been put in place to ensure that, as police officers go to confront criminals, they are sufficiently equipped so that they are not exposed to such dangers as was the case in this particular incident?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are aware of what equipment the police lack. As for the incident in Choma, definitely, part of the blame is on the officer in charge of sending the officers in the field. He should have accessed the situation and provided the necessary equipment.

I am cognisant of the fact that the police had, at least, a fair number of ammunition, which they could have used in such a situation. I think they misjudged the entire operation. They never imagined that it could result into that. They thought it was a mere common criminal matter relating to a murderer whom they could apprehend using the available ammunition because the report was of one person who committed an offence.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, it is regrettable that lives were lost and the suspects are not yet apprehended. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs how operations in his ministry are prioritised because it would have been prudent for the Government to send 100 police officers to Chief Chikanta’s area to arrest the situation instead of sending 100 police officers to Choma to maintain peace at a peaceful consultative meeting by the Southern Province Royal Highnesses.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala has other misgivings. The issue we are talking about should not be so trivialised as to bring in political undertones. This is a matter of serious concern. As I said earlier, the police tried to do their best. Owing to the fact that not a big number of people were involved in the murder of the first victim, they misjudged how the witchdoctor and his colleagues would behave.

Under normal circumstances, you do not send an army to arrest one or two people. The number of officers was adequate. It was one of those incidents that are regrettable. As for the hon. Member’s political undertones, I will not comment on them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for this opportunity to pose a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs who is doing very well.

Mr Speaker, we are told that six armed police officers went to confront, at least, two villagers armed with knives. Would the hon. Minister like to reconsider the training methods of the police, particularly in physical combat, considering that they failed to deal with what I consider to be a situation that they should have handled even if they had three bullets? Would you like to review their syllabus?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I think the police, in certain cases, are adequately trained. It is just that when an incident such as this one happens, there will be much speculation and talking. However, I regret we lost some officers and another innocent person who was sent by the chief.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, realising the seriousness of this matter, I would like the hon. Minister to desist from bringing in political undertones into the debate. I would like to know whether it was prudent, in line with their misjudgment, to send 100 police men to Choma and send only six people to a very dangerous person who was actually suicidal.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In all fairness, the hon. Minister has responded to that question. To recap, he has regretted the situation and also expressly indicated that this appears to have been a very serious error of judgment.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister say that there were six armed police officers and only one person came charging at the police officers. Did these officers really aim to shoot at this person or they were missing him? How can six officers shooting at one person finish all the bullets and, at the same time, two of their colleagues die while the other four run away? Would the hon. Minister explain this.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, it is, indeed, regrettable that we lost the officers. As I said earlier, when they went to apprehend the suspect, they never expected that the suspect would behave in such a manner. They also never anticipated that he would be violent. It was a case of misjudgment on their part and, as I said earlier, it is a regrettable incident about which, of course, I think all of us have been asking serious questions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, obviously, this sounds like a case of serial killing and we need to be serious about such issues as the hon. Minister has indicated. However, hon. Minister, would it not be wise to combine efforts with your colleague in the Ministry of Defence to try and capture those that are on the run.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I am positive the police will get to the bottom of this and those on the run will be nabbed in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, on a number of occasions, successive hon. Ministers of Home Affairs had assured the House that they had bought bulletproof vests. One of the ministers who made that assurance on the Floor of this House was the former Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Lameck Mangani. Why is the Government still promising to purchase bulletproof vests when this House budgeted for them and money was released for this activity?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, of course, the police has a limited number of bulletproof vests, hence the need to purchase more. I am sure we all know that when somebody uses an axe, the target is the head. I, therefore, do not see how a bullet proof vest could have worked in a situation like that one.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, you may wish to know that this incident actually took place in my constituency. I am not shocked to hear that because a number of people have died in my area. Therefore, I would like to know what the Government is doing to ensure the safety of the people of Dundumwezi, bearing in mind that this has been happening. Mr Sibulyobulyo died last year under similar circumstances.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the number of deaths related to witchcraft is on the increase in the country. Last year, before December, we lost seven people who were murdered somewhere in Samfya in daylight. They were ushered into a thatched house at about 1500 hours and the house was set ablaze. People watched them die in that inferno. The issue you have raised, hon. Member, is widespread and I would like to call upon the civil society, politicians and churches among others to take the issue of witchcraft seriously and sensitise people on the dangers of believing in witchcraft. It is so retrogressive that innocent people have lost their lives.

On the other hand, the ministry is trying to do everything possible to increase the number of police officers so that rural police stations are adequately staffed. We need to buy the necessary equipment and transport so that we are on top of things. However, you are aware that, with our financial constraints, we can have those big plans but, at the end of the day, we will be meeting the requirements, maybe, half or quarter way or whatever we can manage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to raise a very serious procedural point of order pertaining to the conduct of the Government in this House.

Mr Speaker, you may be aware that the Government has been making assurances that it will come back to this House and inform the House on a number of issues arising from points of order.

One of the points of order I would like to specifically refer to is on the rehabilitation of State House and Government House after the last year’s elections. Questions were also asked on this matter and an assurance was made by His Honour the Vice-President to return to the House with a response. To date, the Government has decided to remain mute on this issue. Is it in order to ignore the rulings and issues that have been raised on the Floor of this House with impunity and without coming back to the House?

Mr Speaker: The point of order raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central is both pertinent and valid. I would, therefore, urge His Honour the Vice-President to come back, during the course of this meeting, with a response to the specific issue that the hon. Member for Monze Central has made reference to. However, I would also like to seize this opportunity to assure the House that the Secretariat does, very frequently, follow up on a number of these issues, as the course of Business this week will reveal.

May the hon. Member for Siavonga continue?

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, in the first place, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for showing regret at the incident that happened in Choma. However, what have you done to the officer who made this error of judgment?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the person who killed the two police officers died. As for the death of the two officers, it is a matter that will require an inquest. You do not just come up with a decision there and then. This is a serious matter and we have to look at all the other issues involved administratively and through an inquest. The police will follow up the matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, that was a serious error of judgment, indeed. Nonetheless, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm whether or not the six guns that were carried to the scene were operational because I suspect they could not even shoot.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the truth is that the firearms were operational and the police did their best.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Do not ask the hon. Minister questions.

Mr Sakeni: Normally, the police test the guns before they pick them from the armoury. All I am saying is that it is regrettable that we lost lives. May their souls rest in peace.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Speaker, I would like to learn from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs whether he issued instructions to the police in Choma on how to carry out the operations as certain commissions of inquiry would like us to believe.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I think that question has some political undertones.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sakeni: On a serious note, the hon. Member is talking about a matter which the Government has not yet discussed. I am not the Government spokesperson, but I can assure you that you will know about those issues later. As for this incident, the police are bound to make their own judgment.

As regards the question of whether I carry a phone or give the police day-to-day instructions, my business is purely policy. I am here to formulate policy and it is as simple as that.

Interruptions

Mr Sakeni: I do not direct the police to arrest anybody and I have never directed them to arrest any one of you, if that is your worry. The police will arrest you if you commit an offence. It is as simple as that.

The PF’s position is not to interfere with the operations of the police. They make their own judgments even when it comes to holding public rallies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, it is, indeed, very sad that we lost some lives. I would like to find out from the Government what serious measures the police have put in place to bring to book the fleeing accomplice and murder suspects so that we do not have any further loss of life.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the police are vigorously looking for the suspects. As I said earlier, they will be nabbed sooner or later.

I thank you, Sir.

HUMAN TRAFFICKING TRAINING FOR IMMIGRATION OFFICERS

184. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs how many immigration officers were trained in handling cases of human trafficking by the European Union from 2009 to 2011 in order to curb the vice.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that thirty-five immigration officers have been trained in human trafficking-related programmes from 2009 to 2011. The House may wish to note that the Department of Immigration does not directly receive training from the European Union (EU), but rather through the International Organisation for Migration (IOM) to which the EU is one of the donors that contribute to the fund’s basket.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I would like to learn from the hon. Minister whether amongst the immigration officers to be recruited this year, there is a fraction that will be recruited specifically to train in human trafficking.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, as the House may know, the business of human trafficking, just like drug trafficking, is quite lucrative and the perpetrators are getting more and more sophisticated. Therefore, naturally, it is our duty, as a responsible Government, to train and provide specialised training in that field to our officers and we do that periodically.

I thank you, Sir.

CHILUBI DACO OFFICES

185. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:

(a) when the office of the District Agricultural Co-ordinator (DACO) was established in Chilubi;

(b) how much money had been spent in rentals for office accommodation for the DACO from inception to December, 2011; and

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Brigadier-General Kapaya): Mr Speaker, the office of the DACO in Chilubi was established in 1997.

Mr Speaker, the DACO’s office has been paying rentals to the council from 1997 to date. It has accumulated rental amounting to K17.4 million.

The construction of an office block for the DACO in Chilubi District will commence when funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, my question has not been answered. According to the reports obtained at Chilubi Council, for the past number of years, the office of the DACO has not been paying rentals to Chilubi District Council. In this regard, may I know when the office of the Minister will be in a position to settle the outstanding arrears?

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, it is most regrettable that we have not been able to meet our obligation to the rentals for Chilubi District Council.

As a thoroughbred of local government, my sympathy is with the local government system. In this regard, I would like to promise the hon. Member of Parliament that we will address this issue so that we can pay the outstanding rental arrears.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

SOLWEZI DISTRICT BASIC SCHOOLS

186. Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West) asked the Minister of Education, Science and Vocational Training and Early Education when the following basic schools in Solwezi District would be rehabilitated in readiness for upgrading into high schools:

(a) Lunsala in Chief Mumena’s area;

(b) Muyashi, Kamano and Kimikanga in Chief Matebo’s area;

(d) Chitungu, Manyama, Kayonge, Kyansununu and Mwajimambwe in Solwezi West Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, the ministry will identify basic schools with good infrastructure, which can be converted into secondary schools, funds permitting.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to come up with a clear policy guideline on this matter, given the fact that the Government has decided to do away with basic schools and revert to the old system of primary and secondary schools and, also, given the fact that, in rural areas, there are no secondary schools. Where will the pupils go after completing their primary education if the Government has no clear policy to upgrade basic schools to secondary school?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the pronouncement was made by both the President and the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. What the hon. Minister is doing, in terms of the policy direction, is to address the issues raised concerning the conversion of basic schools into secondary schools. Therefore, the ministry is working on the operational document. Once this document on infrastructure development is finalised, which should be within this month, the hon. Minister will inform the hon. Members of Parliament on the direction we are going to take.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, earlier, the hon. Minister said the ministry would look at the many basic schools in Solwezi West and decide to upgrade some, but there were no funds to do so. When the document is ready, presumably very soon, is he assuring us that money will be made available to upgrade these schools?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, in my earlier answer, I said “funds permitting,” but the hon. Member should remember that we have a Budget that was passed in Parliament. The conversion is going to be consistent with the funds that are in the 2012 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister what flaws the Government found in the current education system to warrant a complete overhaul, knowing that it does not even have the money?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I would not want to comment on the flaws. What is important is that each Government comes up with its own policy direction and ours is to phase out the basic schools. The hon. Member must be aware that in the current basic education system, some of the basic schools do not even have laboratory infrastructure. How can you allow a Grade 8 or 9 pupil to go through a system that does not have those facilities? It is against that background that the PF Government decided to revert to the old system of having primary and secondary schools so that, at Grade 8, a pupil will go into a fully-fledged secondary school where these facilities are available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Mwaliteta: Bauze, mwaiche!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the conversion would happen if funds were made available. Supposing the funds are not available, will there be no conversion? What will happen to the schools and the pupils in these schools?

Interruptions

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should be aware that infrastructure development costs a lot of money from the Government’s point of view. Therefore, she should not expect us to convert the basic schools within one year. This is a gradual process. For those that are not going to be converted in 2012, the Government will be able to allocate sufficient funds in 2013 to deal with this issue.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Hammer them, mudala!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, someone is saying, “Hammer them.” I am wondering whether – May I go ahead?

Mr Speaker: Go ahead. In case somebody did mention that, it is unparliamentary.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I admire the conviction of the hon. Deputy Minister in the statements that he is making and appreciate that transition requires to be dealt with very carefully. Seeing that he is convinced that his Government is going to do that, when will he come with a document that will guide this country on the actual process of shifting from the current basic school structure to the one proposed by the PF Government of separating the primary school and the secondary school, considering that there is a convention that allows the existence of basic schools?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, regarding when we will get back to the hon. Members of Parliament, I wish to state that we are going through a consultation process and, once that process is finalised and the document is ready, we will get back to the hon. Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

KIPUSHI BORDER POST

187. Mr Mwanza asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) when a Government official last visited the Customs Offices at the Kipushi Border Post in the North-Western Province;

(b) how much office furniture and equipment, including computers, the Border Post had as of 30th November, 2011; and

(i) Kalengelenge, bordering with the Democratic Republic of Congo;

(ii) Jimbe, bordering with Angola in Mwinilunga District;

(iii) Kabimba in Mwinilunga District; and

(iv) Kamapanda in Mwinilunga District.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, the last visit to Kipushi Border Post by a senior Government official was on 8th June 2011 by Mr Fabian Mumba, the then Permanent Secretary for the North-Western Province.

Sir, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) has two officers manning the Kipushi Border Post. The officers operate from the old border post, but the Government is currently building six staff houses and a new office block. The inventory of office furniture and equipment at the border post is as follows:

Item Quantity

    Office Chairs    04
Office Tables    02
    Steel Cabinets    01
Wooden Cupboard    01
Computer, complete with printer    01
Safe    01
Desk Fan    01
Calculator    01

Mr Speaker, the Government will, in due course, advise this House and the public on the Government’s development plans for Kalengelenge entry point. A modern border post is planned to be constructed in the near future at Jimbe Border and the Government is currently exploring various funding options. Once the process is over, the Government will announce its preferred mode of financing the infrastructure.

On Kabimba, the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication’s Buildings Department prepared tender documents on behalf of the Ministry of Home Affairs for the construction of a new border post and the contract was awarded. Work commenced in 2010 and is near completion. The new border post will accommodate officers from the Immigration and Police departments as well as the ZRA Customs Services. The same situation applies to Kamapanda Border

Mr Speaker, my predecessor, Hon. Alfridah Kansembe, also visited various border posts countrywide, including Kipushi Border Post, on 20th January, 2012. This was during her visit of the ZRA border posts on the Copperbelt. Let me take this opportunity to assure the hon. Member and the House that this Government takes the work of border posts very seriously and will do what it takes to improve their operations. During the tour of my predecessor, many challenges were brought to the fore and these will be brought to the attention of the management of the ZRA with a clear directive that they be resolved.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Boma!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has answered the question very eloquently and I appreciate that. However, I would like him to come out clearly on what is going to happen at Kalengelenge Border Post because, in all the other areas, he has stated when work commenced, but there is a promissory note on Kalengelenge. Can he confirm that the Government will continue to do the same thing it has done at Kabimba.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that, indeed, we will do the best we can to expedite the implementation of works.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that the Government is in the process of constructing six houses when there are only two members of staff at Kipushi Border Post. Why is the Government being wasteful with taxpayers’ money?

Hon. PF Members interjected.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, indeed, there are two members of staff at the post, but there are also support staff, such as the police. In addition, most border posts are understaffed. However, in due course, we will increase the staffing levels at the post.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, Jimbe Border Post is a very important crossing point between Mwinilunga and Angola. How near is the “near future” the hon. Minister has talked about with regard to its construction?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, that is a new question and these are matters of finance. As such, we will need to be very clear before we put a date to the commencement of that project. However, suffice it to say that it will be very soon.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, I would like to start by commending the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for giving very elaborate answers on this very important question. That said, the Immigration Department is statistically one of the departments that spends a very small fraction of the revenue it brings into the Government coffers, yet most of the border posts …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Can we have some order!

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, most of the border posts, especially in the Northern Province where I come from, are very poorly manned despite generating huge amounts of revenue. This, therefore, is a very good opportunity for the Government to create employment.

Mr Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, when does the hon. Minister intend to take advantage of the high generation of revenue by this department to recruit more Immigration officers to man the various border posts?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, we are looking at that, but the Government has priorities. We will look at increasing the number of people manning these border posts as soon as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

LUENA BRIDGE

188. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a) when the reconstruction of Luena Bridge on Luena River in Luwingu District, which was washed away in February, 2010, would be completed;

(b) why the above project stalled in spite of it being an important link between Chilubi and Luwingu districts; and

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, the reconstruction of the bridge was successfully completed in December, 2011. The break in the works was due to the release of funds in two parts. The first allocation was on 30th May, 2011 and the second on 28th September, 2011. This project was funded by the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA).

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, it so happened that, in the process of making the bridge, the contractor started constructing an embankment on both sides of the bridge. However, in due process, the excavator broke down and the embankment was not done. May I learn from the hon. Minister when his office intends to assist the people of both Luwingu and Chilubi to have the embankment constructed so that the bridge and road can become passable.

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, the information that we have at the ministry is that the bridge was completed. However, since he is raising another issue regarding embankments, we will address that expeditiously.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, many bridges in the country have been washed away. May I know whether all bridges will be rehabilitated after the rainy season.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I think that, firstly, we need to carry out a feasibility study and assess how much it will cost to work on all the dilapidated bridges across the country. I know that the amount of money required will be very big and, therefore, I would not say that all the bridges will be rehabilitated after the rains. Nonetheless, we will try and ensure that all the bridges are made passable for our people to carry out their day-to-day activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, on the question raised by the hon. Member for Chilubi, is the hon. Minister aware that the embankment that was constructed is being washed away due to the poor quality of the works?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I think the question relating to the embankment is new. If the embankment is washed away as a result of poor workmanship, I would like to take this opportunity to warn that the Government will not allow work of a low quality. Any contractor who does a sub-standard job will be penalised. The ministry will monitor all the contractors and do everything possible to address the issues involved in the work being carried out.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Chilubi said that the bridge in question is not passable while the hon. Minister said that works on it have been completed. What is the correct position? Is the bridge passable? Once a bridge is constructed, people must use it. Is it usable?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I think that the information that we have at the ministry is that the bridge is usable.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the embankment keeps getting washed away. Why not construct a longer bridge so that the embankment is done away with?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, one of the key issues that came up during our discussion was the quality of work being carried out on the bridge. The ministry will send engineers to inspect the works so that they can help us to come up with an optimum solution.

I thank you, Sir.

CONTRACTORS’ EQUIPMENT

189. Mr Chungu (Luanshya) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication why most of the contractors engaged to rehabilitate urban district roads in the run up to the 20th September, 2011 Elections did not have their own equipment.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, at the time of bidding, the solicitation documents allowed for the minimum required equipment that contractors should own, hire or lease for the effective execution of the contract. The various contractors provided a list of owned equipment and letters confirming their availability if hired or leased. Incidences that led to some of the contractors not having a reliable source of equipment included exhaustion of equipment from possible sources due to the high demand that was created following the number of ‘formula one contracts’ that were awarded. This was not peculiar to equipment only. This also happened to the supply of cement, stones and other materials.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chungu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that officials from the Road Development Agency (RDA) were the ones who were negotiating for this equipment with the foreign contractors on behalf of the Zambian contractors? Is this the Government’s policy?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, before the 20th September, 2011 Elections, the MMD wanted to create an impact in all areas. Most of the procedures were compromised. I think it is not the Government’s policy to allow the RDA to source equipment for Zambian contractors from foreign contractors. It is the contractors themselves who are supposed to source the equipment. The RDA is only supposed to verify that the contractor has the minimum required equipment for a specific job.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, why have contractors been running away from projects which they were contracted to do? Contractors undertaking such works are supposed to give the Government, who is the client, advance payments, guarantees and performance bonds which ensure that the Government does not take risks at any given point. At what point have we compromised ourselves and exposed the Government to risks leading to losing huge sums of money?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, before a contract is awarded, the contractor is supposed to indicate the amount of equipment available, the resources required to execute the job and also the experience. The problem is that in the previous regime, most of the contractors were given unclear bonds to an extent that most of the contracts are in the courts of law for arbitration and that cannot be discussed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, what is this jigsaw puzzle being referred to as ‘formula one contract’?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for raising that question. I think the hon. Member for Gwembe knows that formula one normally relates to racing. For purposes of our discussion, I wish to state that ‘formula one contracts’ were coined by the MMD Government as a way of ensuring that roads were designed and constructed without following laid-down procedures. The MMD Government was in a hurry to execute the works in order to create an impression that it was a working Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, has the PF found no reason, therefore, to change the nomenclature used when referring to the work in question? There is a need to find a more user-friendly word that everyone can understand because even I thought that what was being talked about was related to Michael Schumacher, the German Formula One racing driver.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, that is the official nomenclature which is in the books. In the MMD Government, everyone knew what the phrase ‘formula one’ meant. They all knew that it was a phrase which was used to refer to road projects. The PF Government is going to change the way roads are worked on. It is not going to award ‘formula one’ contracts. Paved blocks will be used as opposed to bitumen in most of the urban areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister confirming that what the hon. Member for Luanshya has stated that most of these contractors who were engaged to rehabilitate urban district roads did not have the correct equipment? If he is, can he now give us the actual statistics? How many contractors were hired? How many did not have the required equipment? If no information will be provided to that effect, we will regard what is being said as hearsay. Can the hon. Minister give the House the statistics.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I get surprised when people try to ask questions when they know what was actually obtaining on the ground. It is important to realise that there were a number of projects which were executed by contractors who did not come with equipment. I will give you an example of Flattelli who was working on roads in Ndola and Mufulira as well as the Pedicle Road. The equipment that Flattellie came with from Italy was compromised. I wonder whether Flattellie had any proper equipment because most of what he was using was hired from within. Even though our contracting system allows a contractor to hire equipment, it still emphasises the need for equipment to be inspected before a contract is awarded. There are many cases I could cite of contracts which were wrongly awarded in the previous regime if a substantive question is asked.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, Kabwe has been greatly affected by the issues that the hon. Minister has just explained. A lot of money was paid out without proper works being done. It seems that we have been swindled. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that the money which was paid out without works being carried out is fully recovered?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the Kabwe urban roads were worked on by Jen Su Wenjin of China and that issue is in the courts of law. We will get a reimbursement.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

IMMIGRATION OFFICERS

190. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how many immigration officers were retired between January, 2010 and November, 2011; and

(b) how many officers were recruited in the same period.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that a total of seventeen immigration officers were retired between January, 2010 and November, 2011.

Mr Speaker, the Immigration Department did not recruit any officers during the said period.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s answer is a clear indication that the Immigration Department is understaffed. That being the case, is his ministry considering recruiting immigration officers? If so, how many is it intending to recruit this year or next year?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, we intend to recruit 225 immigration officers this year.

I thank you, Sir.

SECONDARY SCHOOL IN PAMBASHE

191. Mr Chitotela (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a) when a secondary school would be built in Pambashe Parliamentary Constituency;

(b) how much money the project would cost; and

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we have indicated previously, on the Floor of this House, that there are on-going projects countrywide for the construction of high schools. From the ministry’s point of view, the construction of a school in Pambashe will be considered once the current projects are completed.

Mr Speaker, the cost of the project will only be known when the construction works commence because we cannot tell the cost when the works have not yet started. The timeframe will be known when the construction of the school begins.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the construction of the school I am referring to was approved by the Government last year and that tender procedures were done and a contractor identified? Is he also aware that I was also reliably informed that the contract has been sent to the Ministry of Justice for drafting? I want him to provide me with that information so that I give it to the people of Pambashe when I go there.

Laughter

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I am laughing because despite the hon. Member and I having had discussions regarding this school, he is still asking questions. The construction of a school in Pambashe, just like in other places was considered during the MMD reign. However, like we have said on earlier occasions, new schools will only be constructed if the Budget for 2012 allows. I also indicated to the hon. Member that I would only state, with conviction, whether Mushota Day High School would be constructed once the 2012 Infrastructure Development Plan was ready.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe has just revealed that there is neither a secondary nor high school in that area. This means that pupils face a lot of problems because they have to carry mealie-meal from Chief Mushota’s area to Kawambwa Boys’ High School. May the hon. Deputy Minister indicate, on a serious note, whether his office is considering building a secondary school next year in Pambashe Parliamentary Constituency.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we are aware about the challenges of the pupils in Pambashe Constituency but, obviously, they are not exclusive to the area. For example, there is no school in Nalolo Constituency where the hon. Minister for Gender comes from.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabumba: The Government will only build infrastructure when funds are made available. Obviously, the challenges being faced by Pambashe are not any different from the ones being faced by other districts and constituencies. Once funds are made available, the Government will build a school in Pambashe Constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, considering that ours is an activity-based or cash Budget, I would like the hon. Deputy Minister to brief me on whether he is using a different Budget to that which was approved by this House because the hon. Member for Pambashe has indicated that money was already allocated for the construction of the school in question. Is the hon. Minister in order to continue saying the school will be built once money is made available? Is it not an activity-based Budget that we are using?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I agree with what the hon. Member has said. We are using an activity-based Budget. However, what Hon. Nkombo should remember is that once money is allocated, the ministry comes up with an operational plan for infrastructure development. The development of the operational plan involves the provincial and district education officers. The decision to construct the school that Hon. Chitotela is referring to could have been made in 2010 or 2011. Unfortunately, the construction of this school never started. I am aware that the construction works went through a tender process but, to date, there has not been any feedback. That is why I have consistently said that this year, we will look at the money available and what our operational plan will entail before making any undertaking. If money will be made available in the 2012 Budget, we will assist Hon. Chitotela’s constituency and other places where there are no schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, there are a little over 500 high schools in the country and 10,000 basic schools. Earlier, the hon. Minister mentioned that he would build schools this year and some next year. How will the ministry manage to turn basic schools into secondary schools with the difficulties of money to build a secondary school in Pambashe?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, although it is a new question, I can give a brief bonus answer to the hon. Member of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mabumba: Sir, we do not have difficulties, but what is important is a plan. Once it is in place, then the issue of transforming basic schools into secondary schools and building new schools will be clear. It is at that stage that we can make commitments that are factual. At this stage, we do not want to mislead this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, tagging on to the question that was posed by Hon. Nkombo, I would like to find out whether Pambashe Secondary School is included in this year’s Budget. If it is not, how does the ministry intend to fund the construction of this school?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament approved a broad budget for the Ministry of Education. However, once the funds are allocated, the ministry goes back to work on an operational plan.

Hon. MMD Members: No!

Mr Mabumba: So, I would not say that Pambashe Secondary School has been budgeted for in 2012. Until that operational plan is ready, we cannot tell that a school will be constructed in Pambashe.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

CHITOKOLOKI HIGH SCHOOL IN ZAMBEZI

192. Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when the Government would upgrade Chitokoloki High School in Zambezi District into a skills training institute.

Hon. Government Members: Fisanga abaume!

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member of Parliament is aware, the infrastructure at Chitokoloki High School is not capable of supporting a skills training centre. In this regard, the idea of turning the school into a skills training centre has never been documented. A secondary school cannot be upgraded into a skills training centre.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education in order to mislead this august House by stating that the Budget provided for a block allocation for the construction of schools when the Budget is an activity-based one? If a school is to be constructed, that school will be specifically mentioned in the Yellow Book.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The position is that the schools are not identified.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, many prominent people in this country with skills such as teaching passed through Chitokoloki Secondary School. I would like to know what else it takes, apart from infrastructure, for a school to gain the status of a college. I am asking this question because, in the North-Western Province, there are only two colleges for teaching and nursing.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, this is a new question, but the hon. Member of Parliament, who was once a Cabinet Minister, should know that if you are converting a secondary school into a trades training institute or building one, it requires a lot of equipment. So, Chitokoloki Secondary School, which she referred to, has no equipment for us to turn it into a trades school.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

CHILUBI DISTRICT CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES

193. Mr Chisala asked the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:

(a) how many co-operative societies were registered in Chilubi District as of November, 2011; and

(b) why the co-operative society in Sub-Chief Mwapekalunga’s area was not provided with farming inputs during the 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 farming seasons.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, there were fifty-three registered co-operative societies in Chilubi District as of November, 2011.

Sir, the co-operative society in Sub-Chief Mwapekalunga’s area was not provided with farming inputs during the 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 farming seasons because it was discovered that the co-operative was operating in a game management area (GMA). Farming in a GMA is not in line with the natural resource guidelines. On account of this, the Camp Agricultural Committee (CAC) and District Agricultural Committee (DAC) decided not to provide farming inputs to the co-operative society in Sub-Chief Mwapekalunga’s area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, it takes too long for some of the co-operative societies in Chilubi District to get their co-operatives registered due to distance and procedures. May I know whether the office of the hon. Minister is not considering decentralising the registration of co-operative societies?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, we sympathise with the members of the public for the distance that they have to travel to get to Lusaka to register their co-operatives. However, because of financial constraints, we are unable to decentralise at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zimba (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, most of the co-operatives are registered on the basis of acquiring fertiliser. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that co-operative societies do not become fertiliser co-operatives only?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the intention of the Government is to ensure that co-operative activities are broad based. However, this mono-crop syndrome of growing maize seems to have dominated the activities of co-operatives. This is not to say that there are no co-operatives in other sectors of agriculture.

I thank you, Sir

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock does not have co-operatives like those that were there under the MMD Government. What I am saying is that the co-operatives are silent.

Interruptions

Ms Kalima: Sir, would the hon. Minister clarify what the PF Policy is on the co-operative movement.

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, although that is a new question, I can give a bonus answer. The Department of Co-operatives existed under the MMD Government and it still exists under the PF Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the question on the Order Paper seeks to know why the co-operative society in Chief Mwapekalunga’s area was not getting fertiliser and the response is that they do not need to do any farming in that area. The ministry approved the existence of that co-operative. Therefore, what is the Government doing about it since they have realised that there is no need for farming in that area?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, Chilubi is endowed with fisheries. Therefore, they can diversify into fisheries.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

CABINET DOWNSIZING

195. Mr Lufuma asked the Vice-President:

(a) how much money had been saved through downsizing of the Cabinet by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government;

(b) how many Deputy Ministers were appointed in the former Movement for Multi-party Democracy Government (MMD) and how many had been appointed in the current Government; and

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that K71,586,245.36 is saved on a monthly basis as a result of downsizing the Cabinet by the Patriotic Front Government.

Mr Speaker, forty-one Deputy Ministers were appointed in the former MMD Government and thirty-one Deputy Ministers have been appointed in the PF Government.

Sir, under the MMD, we had forty-one Deputy Ministers and, under the PF, we have thirty-one. The saving per month is K64,113,658.07. For the Ministers in Cabinet, the MMD had twenty-five and the PF has nineteen. The total saving per month….

Hon. Opposition Members: Twenty!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Twenty!

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the information I have is that …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member complete the presentation. You can ask follow-up questions later.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the difference, which is cardinal, is that K71,586,245.36 is saved per month. Annually, we are making a saving of K1,000,728,441.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, may I know how this saving of K71,586,245,000.36 compares with the additional increase in districts and provinces, taking into account the total expenditure on new structures that are created in the Government compared with the saving that you are making on Cabinet Ministers.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, we regret that that is a new question and one which, had we psychic powers of foresight, would have prepared the answer for. Unfortunately, since the hon. Member will not tell me what he is going to follow up with, it is very difficult to invent the answer at short notice.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, according to His Honour the Vice-President, he does not need psychic powers for my question. Since the answer was provided by his office on the amount of money that has been spent on commissions of inquiry, considering a cost benefit analysis, are the savings that are provided to this House meaningful because they have already been overtaken by the amount of money that was spent, as provided to this House, particularly on the commissions of inquiry which were in billions if not trillions of kwacha?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I hope the hon. Member is not implying that the commissions of inquiry were not justified in their own terms. Some inquiries were not commissions, but initiative committees. There may have been some inquiries which drew a blank, so to speak, and gave a clean bill of health but, others, certainly, did not, including some that the lady knows about very well.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it should also be borne in mind that these figures are simply the salary differences between a Backbencher and a Deputy Minister. They do not include the cost of vehicles, houses and many other benefits that need to be paid out which would certainly come to considerably more than all the commissions of inquiry that are being complained about.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, obviously, we have to be more worried about the overall cost of running the Government than isolated cases. In that vein, I would like to find out the extra cost that has been incurred as a result of the very frequent realignments and changes in departments and ministries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, to a great degree, they are cost neutral. I mean that there are no specific expenditures involved. We do not actually move buildings across town or anything like that.

Laughter

The Vice-President: It is mainly a matter of ministers playing musical chairs or departments reporting to different people. However, again, it is impossible for me to foresee all the questions about arithmetic that might come up in the cost of such a generalised question and answer session.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the figures that have been given by the hon. Deputy Minister are based on nineteen Government ministries. Can he confirm that after the creation of another ministry, which will be the twentieth ministry, there will be no saving whatsoever. If anything, there will be an increase in expenditure.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thought we would get accolades for producing a fully-fledged Ministry of Gender. The answer to that very simple arithmetic is that, after increasing the number of Cabinet ministries from nineteen to twenty, there still remains a difference of five between what the MMD had and what the PF has.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I cannot follow what is happening in the hon. Member’s head.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, with the increase in the number of ministries to twenty, will the savings still be K71 million or will this figure reduce?

Hon. Opposition Members: Answer now!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Speaker will direct. His Honour the Vice-President may proceed.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the difference shown in the tables that were read out is K72 million per month saved for a difference of six ministers in Cabinet terms. This means a difference of K12 million per minister. If you reduce this difference by one minister, then it would appear that it comes to K60 million saved. I challenge the hon. Member to tell me which is which if I put one pile of K72 million and one pile of K60 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, K71 million excludes the Ministry of Gender. Can the hon. Minister state exactly how much will be saved after the creation of this ministry.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

That question has just been answered by His Honour the Vice-President.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President mentioned that the previous Government had twenty-five Cabinet Ministers. Can he clarify this because that is not the number we had. Can he name the ministries because there were only twenty-two of us.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think I would have to take up accounting and come back in a year’s time …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … to answer curveball questions like that on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATIONS

196. Mr Chisala asked the Vice-President why the Commission for Investigations was not able to deal conclusively with 4,146 cases in 2004 and, instead, carried them forward to 2005.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the commission was not able to conclude 4,146 cases in 2004 because of the following:

(i) it is understaffed with only two investigations officers who receive and act upon complaints from the entire country. The establishment for the commission has a total of thirty officials and only two are investigations officers;

(ii) it is centrally located with only one office in Lusaka and this makes it difficult to follow up cases which originate from other provinces and districts;

(iii) it has inadequate transport to follow up cases;

(iv) it received inadequate funds for it to effectively operate. In 2004, the Commissions for Investigations had a budgetary allocation of K1.6 billion for personal emoluments and K1 billion for general administration and the commission’s core function of investigating complaints.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours. {mospagebreak}

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was giving the last reason why the Commission for Investigations was not able to conclude its business in 2004.

Mr Speaker, with support from the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung Foundation, the commission carried out provincial tours throughout the country and had a lot of sensitisation campaigns from 2002 to 2003. As a result, the commission received a lot of cases from the members of the public countrywide. However, in 2004, the donor pulled out, but the commission continued receiving a lot of cases from the public that was sensitised during the provincial tours that had been undertaken.

Therefore, in 2004, the commission received a lot of cases and had carried over some cases from the previous years. However, the cases were not conclusively dealt with due to a lack of funds to enable the commission to carry out further provincial tours to resolve cases on the spot.

Mr Speaker, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister highlighted the fact that the centralised system of operation hinders progress of the Commission for Investigations. This being the case, is his office considering decentralising the commission so that it can make progress?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the problem that, perhaps, the questioner should be referring to is funding. You cannot decentralise or clear a backlog in any manner by simply declaring that you are going to decentralise. Obviously, decentralising is a more expensive option than centralisation even though the latter is not effective.

I would also like to draw the attention of the House to the problem of intermittency of donor support. The Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, normally called FES, carried out provincial tours advertising the great merits of the ombudsman as the Commissioner for Investigations is called in European lingual. They were here for two years and developed a lot of interest in the commission’s investigations and then stopped funding it, hereby hang a lot of tales.

This is a very classical example of starting something and not finishing or not abandoning it properly. I would hope that in future years, the Commission for Investigations, which is a very good idea, will become a truly independent body and get adequate funding.

I thank you, Sir.

COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATIONS PROVINCIAL VISITS

197. Mr Chisala asked the Vice-President:

(a) how many provinces the Commission for Investigations visited in 2006; and

(b) how many cases had been dealt with conclusively in the same year.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, in the year 2006, the Commission for Investigations only had one provincial tour and that was on the Copperbelt.

In 2006, 389 cases were conclusively dealt with. The cases were dealt with as follows:

(i) 2,009 cases were redressed – this means that a complainant who had suffered injustice in consequence of an act of maladministration had corrective action taken;

(ii) sixty-five cases were unjustified – this is where a complainant did not suffer any injustice at all resulting from an alleged act of maladministration;

(iii) forty-eight cases were declined – this is where the commission considered that the matter did not warrant further investigations;

(iv) fifty-three cases were discontinued – this is where a complainant did not exhaust his/her institutional internal channels of communication or where the investigation had been barred by Statutory Acts; and

(v) fourteen cases were transferred – this is where a complaint was forwarded to a more appropriate authority to pursue the merit of the complaint.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, may I know whether the Commission for Investigations toured all the provinces of Zambia in the period between 2010 and 2011.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that is a question applying to a completely different timeframe from the one in which the question is couched. However, I am pretty certain that it did not do so in that period.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

RETIRED EMPLOYEES

198. Mr Zimba asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning when the Government would pay the following:

(a) retired employees of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA); and

(b) former employees of the Kapiri Glass Factory who retired before the privatisation of the company.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government has no obligation to pay terminal benefits to former employees of State-owned Enterprises (SOEs). This is the obligation of the boards and management of these companies. However, the Government, as a shareholder, ensures that strategic companies of national interest are capitalised. In this regard, the Government made a provision, in the 2012 Budget, to recapitalise TAZARA with K20,000,000,000. This is indicated on page 379, as Programme 3085, Activity 036 in the Yellow Book.

Sir, with regard to the second question, I wish to inform this august House that Kapiri Glass Products (KGP) Limited is under receivership and the payment of terminal benefits shall be handled by the receiver according to the provisions of the Companies Act.

However, to answer possible follow-up questions in advance, …

Laughter

Mr Sampa: … let me put things into perspective. The receiver of the KGP is Mr Mwila Lumbwe of Ernst and Young. He has confirmed that he paid all retired and retrenched workers and even availed employees company houses. He further confirmed that he had no single claim from those who retired before privatisation.

The assets, not the company, that is equipment and machinery of the KGP, were sold to Mr Costain Chilala and the new company under him will start operations in May next year.

The receiver, Mr Mwila Lumbwe, has since handed over the company in receivership to the Office of the Administrator-General. Therefore, any retired employee not paid should make a claim with the said Office of the Administrator-General.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated that K20 billion has been set aside …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order, and I must apologise to the hon. Member who was on the Floor.

Sir, I rise on what I consider to be a very serious point of order. Under Standing Order No. 157, there is a provision for Portfolio Committees of Parliament which, as much as possible, relate to the structure of the Government. Following the ascendance of the PF to power, some of these Portfolio Committees have changed names without the relevant Standing Orders having been changed. Is this House in order, Mr Speaker, to change the names of the Committees without amending the relevant Standing Orders, given that this Government keeps changing the names of the ministries?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: This matter was actually addressed at the time the various Committees were announced.

You may continue, hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning has just indicated that K20 billion has been set aside for recapitalisation. That being the case, may I learn from him how soon the Government intends to release the said funds?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, that amount is in the Budget and it is up to the board and management to request for it as soon as possible. It is available and it will be released.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, the answer given by the hon. Minister makes me uncomfortable, especially with regard to the KGP issue. The employees were almost getting their money. However, I would like to find out what has now made the Government distance itself from ensuring that the retired employees are paid.

As for TAZARA, how true is it that it still owes the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and Zambia State Insurance Corporation K230 billion and US$45 million respectively for unremitted contributions from employees? Why is it that the Tanzanian Government is doing a much better job than its Zambian counterpart? For instance, the Tanzanian Government has just released US$5 million to pay retirees. Why is our Government distancing itself from this issue?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, I will start with the second question which is totally new. I would urge the hon. Member to put it in writing so that we can research on it.

On the first question, as I said, the retired employees were all paid. There is nobody, according to the receiver’s record, who has not been paid. The employees who were retired before privatisation were all paid. Likewise, all those who were retired when privatisation took place have also been paid.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, the buildings of the KGP are part of the investment portfolio of our country. That being the case, is there any hope in sight that, some day, that factory will come back to life?

Mr Sampa: Sir, there is life at the end of the tunnel for the KGP. The factory needs US$23 million to start operations. A few weeks ago, it was reported in the press that Mr Chilala has managed to get US$11 million of that amount. As I said earlier, he has assured the ministry and the country that he will start operations in May, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I understand the hon. Minister’s statement that the Government has no obligation to pay retirees of TAZARA in particular. However, according to the information that I have, TAZARA has not been profitable for a long time, hence its failure to pay not only the retirees, but also the salaries of serving employees. In addition, the recapitalisation may not even help profitability. What is the Government doing to ensure that TAZARA is effective, self-sustaining and profitable?

Interruptions

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, as a shareholder, the best thing that the Government could do is pump money into the company. We have allocated K20 billion towards the recapitalisation of TAZARA in this year’s Budget. As for next year, nothing will stop this Government from pumping more money into the company, if there is a need.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker, taking advantage of the discussion on the plight of retirees of the KGP and TAZARA, I would like to find out if the new Government has put in place a general policy regarding the timeframe within which people should be paid off so as to alleviate this problem. Retirees, including civil servants and other workers in the entire country, really need to come out of this quagmire because workers suffer a lot when they retire.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, the solution to all that is more money. Therefore, this Government is committed to collecting more revenue through the ZRA. With that, we can then pay more retirees, be it civil servants or others. The more money we get, the more we will apportion towards benefits for retirees. On the other hand, it is a question of prioritising issues and paying retirees is one of the priorities of this Government. Indeed, we will continue to source funds and pay retirees.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, in his earlier answer, the hon. Minister said that K20 billion will be given to the company if management demands it. The shareholders of this company are the Governments of Zambia and Tanzania. This House was informed about the various ways in which the company could be rebuilt, including the help of the Chinese Government. Is the hon. Minister now saying that the various arrangements have fallen through such that we could only give TAZARA K20 billion and wait for it to be demanded? Are there no other arrangements between the shareholders?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, I think that is one way of understanding what I said. However, the K20 billion has been given to the company. It is now up to the board to decide how best to use it. As regards our relationship with other shareholders, there are meetings that are underway and that issue will be decided consequently. I repeat that K20 billion has been availed to the company’s board through the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Those funds are in the Budget and are available. So, they will be utilised as the board and the ministry deem it fit.

I thank you, Mr Speaker

_____

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_____

The House adjourned at 1651 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 14th March, 2012.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

SOLWEZI/KIPUSHI ROAD REHABILITATION

194. Mr Taima (Solwezi East) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication what immediate plans the Government had to ensure that the Solwezi-Kipushi Road is passable during the 2011/2012 rainy season.

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, the North-Western Province Provincial Administration allocated K1 billion to carry out emergency works on the Solwezi-Kipushi Road. The works were to cover potholes and gullies that had formed on the road. Only K11,220,000 was spent on emergency works in sections that were very bad on the road using the earth-moving equipment under the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) at the beginning of 2011.

Sir, the Government, through the RRU, will continue attending to the sections of the road that will need attention. In 2012, K3,250,000,000 is available under the Road Development Agency (RDA) Annual Work Plan to conduct a feasibility study, prepare a detailed engineering design and the tender document for the road.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

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