Wednesday, 5^th July, 2023

 The House met at 1430 hours

 [MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 NATIONAL ANTHEM

 PRAYER

_ _____

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

DELEGATION OF GENDER COMMITTEE OF PAP

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following members of the Gender Committee of the Pan-African Parliament (PAP) and staff:

 Hon. Mariam Dao Gabala, MP                    -           Chairperson, Cote d’Ivoire

 Hon. Rachel Yassindali, MP                        -           Member, Central African Republic

 Hon. Pemmy Majodina, MP                          -           Member, South Africa

 Hon. Marie Mediatrice Izabiliza, MP            -           Member, Rwanda

 Hon. Anita Ndayizeye, MP                         -           Member, Burundi

 Ms Marie Bebey                                          -           Staff, Cameroon

 Mr Jeffrey Onganga                                     -           Staff, Gabon

 Mr Jhoris K. Mushota                                    -           Staff, Zambia

 Mr Chomba Kalunga                                       -           Staff, Zambia

 On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

 Thank you.

______

 MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

 MR CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER FOR PAMBASHE, ON MRS NALUMANGO, THE VICE-PRESIDENT, ON SUGILITE THIEVES ARRESTED IN MANSA

 Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

 Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious matter of national interest and growing concern according to our Standing Order No. 134 and read together with Standing Order No. 135 in terms of admissibility.

 Madam Speaker, Zambia is one of the countries that are endowed with natural resources. Luapula, in particular, has been discovered to be a province with one of the most expensive minerals in the world, to be specific, the second most expensive.

This morning, when I checked the international market, this mineral, sugilite, cost about US$5.2 million per metric tonne.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, do not debate. Just state the matter of urgent public importance, and who is it directed at.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The matter is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, state the matter without debating.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, this is relation to a case of sugilite. I have with me, a daily tabloid, the Daily Nation Volume No. 9, Issue No. 3710, dated Wednesday, 5^th July, 2023. On the second page, it says “Three Sugilite Thieves Arrested in Mansa.”

Madam Speaker, on Saturday morning, Zambians in Luapula Province were treated to a statement by the Police Deputy Spokesperson, Mr Danny Mwale, that the three people who are suspected to have stolen sugilite in Mansa on Friday night had gone to Muombe Mine to go and begin blasting. One of them is mentioned as Kalembwe. Kalembwe is the Provincial Youth Chairman for the United Party for National Development (UPND) who is facing a two-year sentence –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are now debating the mater. Kindly, for the last time, state the matter without debating. Just state the matter.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, while this matter is directed at the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia, who is the Leader of Government Business in the House, it involves two ministries; the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. That is why it is directed at her.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, it was reported that the police in Mansa, again, arrested two foreign nationals who come from Afghanistan by the names of Ashim Muhammad and Mr Muashi Muhammad, both with sugilite.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: As the people of Luapula Province, we are concerned. Luapula Province shares with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) the longest border, and partly borders with Rwanda and Burundi. That is why that region of Zambia is called the Great Lakes Region.

Madam Speaker, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the matter, hon. Member? We want to hear the matter and not the debate. Do not go into details.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the matter is: Is her Honour the Vice-President in order to keep quiet and not address the people of Luapula Province and Zambia on what the Government is doing in relation to the mining of sugilite in Luapula Province and on the security concerns that are arising?

 Mr Nkandu interjected

 Interruptions

 Mr Chitotela: Yes, my brother, hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts, they were arrested on Saturday and were released on Tuesday, during the holiday.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. I think I have got the matter.

 Mr Chitotela: I seek your serious guidance.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. This matter has already been raised in this session. According to Standing Order No. 135 (2) (b), if a matter has already been discussed by the House during the same session, then it is not admissible. The issue of sugilite has been mentioned and has been brought to the House, I think, two or three times. So, I advise the hon. Member to use another avenue to bring this matter to the House. He can either wait for Her Honour the Vice-President on Friday or, indeed, use the question format.

 MR MENYANI ZULU, HON. MEMBER FOR NYIMBA, ON MR SYAKALIMA, HON. MINISTER OF EDUCATION, ON TWO SCHOOLS IN NYIMBA NOT CONNECTED TO THE NATIONAL ELECTRICITY GRID

 Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

 Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, please, permit me to raise this matter of urgent public importance. I know it is coming from Nyimba Constituency. I do not want the Government to find itself with a problem which will need emergency funds or the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to move in. If we handle this case today, we can sort it out.

 Madam Speaker, there are two schools in Nyimba District which are not connected to the national electricity grid and are entirely dependent on –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, the matter is directed at whom?

 Mr Menyani Zulu: At the hon. Minister of Education, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

 Mr Menyani Zulu: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There are two schools, Kacholola Boarding and Chibale Boarding, which are not connected to the national electricity grid. They survive by using generators to run the schools with a population of over 800 pupils, respectively.

 Madam Speaker, for the last two months, the schools have been using allocations from Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Thanks to the Government, we gave them 100 per cent of their CDF allocation and that is the money they are using to buy diesel. However, the agreement with the Government is that it will be providing grants for diesel. In the last two months, however, these two schools have not received money for diesel. We might have early closure of these schools because we are not doing the needful.

 Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Education is: What is the Government doing to avert the problem at these two institutions?

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Member. Again, your matter is not admissible. In fact, the way you even addressed this matter was through a question. You should have just gone that way because according to the rules on raising a matter of urgent public importance, a matter should not be peculiar to only a small section of the country; it should be widespread. So, hon. Member, again, can you, please, find another avenue to bring that matter to the House.

 Thank you.

 ______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 FQMO IMPENDING JOB LOSSES

 329. Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

 (a) whether the Government is aware that over 1,000 workers at First Quantum Minerals and Operations Limited (FQMO) are on the verge of losing their jobs following the announcement by First Quantum Minerals (FQM) Limited that FQMO will be closed and consolidated with the operations at Kansanshi; and

 

(b)  if so, what urgent measures are being taken to prevent job losses which will lead to destitution.

 The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati) (on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of the ongoing restructuring at First Quantum Minerals (FQM), which comes as a result of its decision to consolidate its mining operations, including the Road and Earthworks Division and the Mining Division, with the operations at Kansanshi Mining Plc.

 Madam Speaker, while FQM has proactively taken measures to ensure that the employees affected by the consolidation are well-taken care of, some jobs may be adjusted or redefined due to potential duplication. The majority of the employees will simply be transferred to the new entity without any job losses.

 Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, is closely monitoring the situation and engaging FQM to ensure that the affected workers are treated fairly and in compliance with the country’s labour laws and regulations. This is in an effort to support the affected workers in finding suitable employment within the FQM group.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, the response that the Acting hon. Minister has provided confirms that there is some restructuring ongoing at (FQM), which will affect some workers. Is he able to confirm to this august House the actual number of workers that will be affected once job descriptions are redefined?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, at this stage, the exercise is ongoing. So, we cannot be in a position to give precise numbers until the exercise has been completed.

 I thank you, Madam.

 Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, hon. Members will agree with me that unemployment is devastating and results into poverty, crime and inequality. They will also agree with me that a number of our people are benefiting from social welfare grants that are given, and these grants are a burden to the Government. Now, looking at this looming number of 1,000 employees feared to be fired, is the Government not trying to find an amicable way to avert what would be a burden on it?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I said that the Government is working very closely with the FQM. What is basically happening is that the division at Bwana Mkubwa had 1,000 employees. The majority of these employees are going to be absorbed at Kansanshi Mining Plc. There may be a few who will not find a place, and should that arise, they will receive their compensation in terms of the law and regulations.

 I thank you, Madam.

 Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much, once again. I am certain that the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is as concerned as we are regarding the welfare of the workers at the FQM. What steps has the Government taken to get some form of written commitment from the FQM that would allay fears of job losses? Is there anything written? Is there anything that the FQM has written that will bind its commitment to securing jobs for our people after the restructuring process?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I am thankful for that good question. We have already stated that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development in particular is working on a continuous basis to ensure that the job losses are minimised. So, the ministry is actively involved. At the end of the exercise, if there will be a few jobs that will have to go, we shall then resort to the appropriate legislation under the labour laws to ensure that our people are appropriately compensated.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I am very saddened that we seem to be turning into a laughing stock. Despite so much endowment, we are dancing to the songs of investors. For two years in a roll, we have lost colossal sums of money in the name of providing incentives to mining companies that, for a very long time, have been calling on the Government to put in place an appropriate tax regime that would support investment. When we are supposed to be celebrating the creation of jobs in the mining sector today, we are lamenting over prospects of job losses.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member, do not debate.

 Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, therefore, does the hon. Minister not think that these investors are arm-twisting the Government? They were celebrating when the announcement was made of the change in the tax regime, but, today, there are threats of job losses.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I assure the hon. Member that no entity, however strong, can ever arm-twist this Government.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Nkandu: Good answer!

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, before we changed the tax regulations and incentives, there was absolutely no additional investment in the mining sector. Following the change of the tax regime, however, over US$1.5 billion has been invested in the sector, including the opening of a new nickel mine in the North-Western Province creating additional employment.

 hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mutati: Additional employment and jobs have been created in the North-Western Province.

 Madam Speaker, what we are doing is not to shrink production, but to boost it.

 Interruptions

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have order, please!

 Mr Mutati: What we are also doing is to create and open new mines.

 Madam Speaker, we have not, in a long time, been recipients of investment into the mining sector to the extent of US$1.5 billion. This is what is going to assist us to meet the target of 3 million tonnes in ten years.

 Madam Speaker, therefore, this Government is running in a prudent manner to ensure that mining anchors and continues to provide us the necessary revenue to support the development of the country.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, may I know what necessitated this consolidation and adjustment.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo is in business. Any business does take consolidation and adjustment in order to improve the operations of that business. So, it is for that purpose that the company has undertaken this consolidation.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, is the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in a position to confirm whether there is a written undertaking between the mine owners and the union regarding the fate of the employees who are either going to be rendered redundant or be taken up in other operations? As he said, the number is not known yet, but we are talking about more than 1,000 workers. Is there something to guarantee the status of these employees in writing between the mine owners and the trade unions responsible for the miner workers?

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I understand my hon. Colleague wants a confirmation of a written commitment between the Government and the union. I think the first level of comfort that all of us must ascribe to is the labour law that is completely written, and it provides for circumstances that must be followed in the event that workers are declared redundant. So, there cannot be anything above what the law says and what the law says is going to prevail.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of “Peta-UK” ...

 Laughter

 Mr B. Mpundu: Ni ba Minister bamuchita disturb.

 Mr J. E. Banda: ... to ask a follow-up question to the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. I am just from concluding my research ...

 Laughter

 Interruptions

 Mr J. E. Banda: ... about the youths here in Zambia. Thirty per cent of the Zambian youths are educated and 70 per cent are uneducated.

 Mr Nkandu: No, no!

 Interruptions

 Mr J. E. Banda: This is according to the research I have just concluded –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member on the Floor, can we please be focused on the main question. I think the question does not ask anything about how many youths are educated.

 So, you can go ahead. What is your question?

 Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government has scored success regarding the educated youths, who are only 30 per cent of them. It has scored success under employment, but the other 70 per cent has not been touched. Those who are at risk of losing jobs fall under this 70 per cent. This means that the percentage will now increase from 70 to 80 per cent.

 Laughter

 Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the question to the hon. Minister is: We have sugilite in Luapula Province and gold in Kasenseli, which is just on the surface. You can imagine that people can just go there, blast and then come out with sugilite –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member on the Floor, the question is very specific. It is on the First Quantum Minerals and Operations Limited. It is focused, but you are now bringing in other issues which are not part and parcel of the question. Can you, please, be specific to the question on the Floor. If you want to come up with another question, please, you are free to submit it to the Journals and Table Office. Otherwise, let us try to be specific.

 Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I am sure it is because I over researched.

 Laughter

 Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the questions is: Does the Ministry have any plans to open up those mines so that the people who are going to lose jobs can be employed under Kasenseli Gold Mine and in Luapula where we have sugilite? I seek your answer hon. Minister of acting mines.

 Laughter

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for his interest in carrying out research, in particular, as it relates to ...

 Mr B. Mpundu: He over researched.

 Mr Mutati: ... unemployment.

 Madam Speaker, we have said that some of these workers affected will be taken on by Kansanshi Mine and others will be taken over under the new Nickel Mine in the North-Western Province. Indeed, there will be other opportunities that will be created. So, effectively, those that are going to be separated will remain very few. We are monitoring, through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, so that we minimise the number of jobs that is going to be lost as a result of this change in approach.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last three questions. Our order paper is loaded today. It will be the hon. Member for Mkushi North, the hon. Member for Matero and the hon. Member for Kantanshi, in that order.

 Mr C. Chibuye: Madam Speaker, in his statement the hon. Minister stated that those that are going to lose employment will be relocated to other new mines. Do we see a possibility of having these workers being relocated to Mkushi at Kashime Copper Mines which the First Quantum Minerals Ltd is about to open? Could he confirm that others will be relocated to Kashime Copper Mine in Mkushi?

 Mt Mutati: Madam Speaker, what we said was that we are going to make all possible efforts to ensure that we minimise job losses, including relocation of workers to Mkushi. That is part of the effort.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister knows, the North-Western Province gave a huge vote to the United Party for National Development (UPND) for it to form Government in the 2021 elections.

 Madam Speaker, the First Quantum Minerals Ltd (FQM) has also been receiving a lot of tax concession, should the news coming from FQM in the North-Western not be about 1000 jobs being created and 1000 jobs being reduced? Is the FQM not working against your Government seeing as 2026 is nearby?

 Mr J. E. Banda: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we are, indeed, grateful for the vote that was delivered by the North-Western Province. We are also grateful that the President won by a million. So, it means that it was nationwide ...

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mutati: ... and we remain grateful for that large vote. We will continue to deliver appropriately to ensure that that margin does not go down.

 Madam Speaker, we are focused on ensuring that we continue to attract investment not only in the North-Western Province, but in the mining sector in general.

 Mr B. Mpundu: On a Point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Mutati: So, I assure the hon. Member that what we are doing in the North Western Province is to continue the investment. These operations are in Bwana Mkubwa in Ndola. Most of these people will be moved into the North-Western Province and some of them will go to Mkushi. Should there be a few that will remain, then, obviously, they will be compensated appropriately under the law.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, guided by our Standing Order No. 65 on the accuracy of the information we provide, I am at sea and do not want to walk away blank. The Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, in essence, agrees that there will be a loss of employment by almost 1000 jobs. However, in the same breath, he mentions that his ministry is trying to minimise job losses.

 Madam Speaker, there is no correlation between creating other employment opportunities and minimising job losses. We need to be clear. What is the ministry doing? The hon. Minister says “minimising job losses”. This means that out of 1000, you cut off as opposed to creating other opportunities. I am lost, Madam Speaker.

 Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, thank you for that point of order, but, please, let us try to work as a team. The hon. Minister is still on the Floor. It would have been better, since you already asked a question, to ask your neighbour to ask that question. So, what I am going to do, since you raised it almost like a question and not a point of order and also debated it, I am going to ask the hon. Minister, as he takes the last question from the hon. Member for Kantanshi, to react to that issue that you have raised.

 Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses so far. The people of Kantanshi just want to understand because they have been victims of mines making these decisions of retrenching in the name of downsizing or reinvesting and so on and so forth. Since this information has come across to you, and, yes, we are grateful for the investment of over 1.5 US$ billion that has not been in the country for a long time in the sector, would he think that, maybe, there are more incentives that this particular mine is looking for. Considering that past where we are coming from, under Mopani Mine, we saw a lot of these requests which led to either our miners losing jobs and all sorts of things happening. Does he think that there are more demands coming from these investors that his Government needs to address?

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development, as you respond, please, just define what the hon. Member for Nkana was trying to find out.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, our policy is very clear. It says that any tax incentives that are offered are not offered to a specific mine, but the sector. So, we will not be taken along the path where we take the FQM singularly for any incentives. I can confirm here that FQM has not asked this Government for any additional tax incentive. The issue that was raised about minimising and over and all these things;

 Madam Speaker, let me just read the answer for part (b). It says, while the FQM has proactively taken measures to ensure that the employees affected by the consolidation are well taken care of, some job roles may be adjusted or redefined due to potential duplication. The majority of the employees will simply be transferred to the new entity without any job losses. That is what we said in the answer. If other opportunities are created, they will absorb new employees.

 So, Madam Speaker, we are quite clear and with no contradiction because this Government is not vulnerable to delivering contradictory statements.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 ILLEGAL GOLD MINING IN MPIKA DISTRICT BY NTAMBA MWELU

 330. Mr. Kapyanga (Mpika) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

 (a) whether the Government is aware that there is a company called Ntamba Mwelu that is illegally mining gold in Mpika District and has brought in heavy equipment that has caused destruction of roads and the collapse of the bridge at Kanyelele River that connects Kanyelele and Mutamba areas; and

 (b) if so, what urgent measures are being taken to stop the illegal mining and avert further environmental degradation by the heavy equipment.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the Government is not aware about the illegal mining activities being conducted at Ntambu Mwelu in Mpika District.

 Hon. PF Members: Question!

 Mr Mutati: As of May 2023, the ministry conducted a verification exercise to ascertain the extent of the illegal gold mining in Kanyelele area of Mpika District. It was established that only local people were involved in the illegal gold mining in the area.

 Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the Government will immediately engage Ntamba Mwelu and establish the reported activities in the area. However, the Government is aware that Ntamba Mwelu has two active exploration licences in Mpika District which are expiring in 2025.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response. A group of people led by a Mr Kateule, representing Ntamba Mwelu, arrived in Mpika on 2^nd June, 2023, driving four Toyota Prado vehicles with security lights. They met one of our chiefs…

 Mr Kangombe: Question!

 Mr Kapyanga: …and disclosed who had sent them.

 Mr J. Chibuye: Yes!

 Mr Mposha: Who?

 Mr Kapyanga: After one week, they started mobilising tippers and excavators.

 Mr Nkombo: Who sent them?

 Interruptions

 Mr Kapyanga: In the process ...

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 I have given the Floor to only the hon. Member for Mpika. Let us give him the chance to ask his question.

 Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, as they were moving that heavy equipment, they damaged a bridge connecting Ntamba and Kanyelele. One, an excavator got derailed at the bridge and two, a tipper got derailed at the same bridge. I have pictures for the hon. Minister to ascertain this information because his people have highly misled him. These people have been mining using explosives against the Explosives Act.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 What is your question? You have described the whole scenario.

 Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, that company does not have an exploration licence in that area of Kanyelele.

 Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mpika, what is the question?

 Mr Kapyanga: My question, Madam Speaker, is: If it was not Ntamba Mwelu, who were those people representing because they were not local people as the hon. Minister has misled the nation and the House?

 Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Kapyanga: Those were not from Mpika. Our chiefs know who the people of Mpika are. Those were not from Mpika.

 Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister comes in, there is an indication for a point of order from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

 Laughter

 Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I rise on Standing Order No. 65 which also addresses us to the issue of relevance.

 Madam Speaker, it is clear that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika brought up a question to which he knows the answers very well, from the manner in which he is presenting himself. The hon. Minister has indicated the Government’s unawareness of the activities therein. Is he, therefore, in order to bring up a question when he is more conversant with the answers and is competent to answer? We have made it clear, ourselves, that we are unaware about the activities at that mine in Mpika. He even has photographs. Can you imagine?

 Laughter

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

 Thank you for that point of order. The question at hand is very important. Can we, please, try to ask supplementary questions that will benefit the people instead of defending the situation.

 The hon. Member for Mpika, you are from Mpika itself. I am sure there are better questions that you can bring across so that the people in Mpika benefit. Do not give us the information that you have. That information, actually, would have been more helpful had you sat down with the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, maybe, even before coming to the House to ask a question. That information that you have is very useful, but it would have helped the hon. Minister who is responding, since you know a lot. We cannot blame you since you are coming from the same area where the question is focused.

 So, please, can you choose questions that will benefit the people. If you have answers to the questions you are asking, I do not think it is of benefit to the people of Mpika. Just make use of this opportunity to come up with very good questions regarding this matter.

 So, the hon. Member for Mpika was out of order because he seemed to have the answers.

 With that guidance, hon. Member, the people of Mpika are looking up to you. Just bring useful questions that will benefit them.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, you have dealt with the subject matter. However, I think, in essence, it will be very helpful for the hon. Member of Parliament, who is so convinced that the local chiefs, including himself, know how people from Mpika look like…

 Laughter

 Mr Mutati: … to advise us that those whom he saw were not from Mpika so that the Government can deal with the matter appropriately. So, he could parade us those who were in Mpika and demonstrate to us that this is not how the people of Mpika look.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Laughter

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I think what is important here is just to know the true information rather than to parade people. It is very important that we have the facts on the ground so that you are able to make progress on this issue.

Hon. Minister, please, maybe, as you answer the questions, try to be factual so that the people of Mpika benefit from your responses.

 Hon. Member for Mpika Constituency, you may ask your second and last question.

 Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, thank you so much. Let me also put on record that when the question was placed, the hon. Minister had an opportunity to invite the hon. Member of Parliament and get more information. I was not contacted, how then would I provide have him with that information?

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, we appreciate your comments, but please, can you go straight to your second question.

 Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I was trying to put this on record since you said that the information I had provided was not necessary and useful.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 No, what I said was that it is very important that you share the information with the hon. Minister.

 Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. The equipment that mined and is mining and looting gold in Mpika is still there. We know where those people have heaped the same gold. Like it happened in the sugilite case, when is he going to take law enforcement agencies on the ground to help him investigate and bring culprits to book, since they are mining against the law?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, obviously, I think that, now, we have more focused information. I also want to encourage the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika that it is part of his responsibility, if he has information that is critical for the well-being of our people, to contact the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and, I am sure, appropriate action can be taken. He should not only wait for the hon. Minister to reach him.

 Madam Speaker, firstly, in the answer, we were specific that the illegal mining was being done by local people. Secondly, we were specific that Ntamba Mwelu has an exploration licence, according to our records. Thirdly, the issues that he has raised will be taken seriously by the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

 Madam Speaker, having mounted a mission at the end of May, the ministry will take appropriate action to ensure that illegality is exterminated in Mpika. We shall take appropriate action.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

 Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to raise a supplementary question.

 Madam Speaker, our country is struggling with a lot of debt, yet it is endowed with many natural resources. When is his ministry going to be serious enough to ensure that all these discovered minerals in our country are taken care of or are put under the custody of his ministry so that our Government can start realising monies to help it raise the revenues of our country instead of allowing foreigners or locals to continue looting them?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, this Government has taken some practical action. Firstly, the hon. Member of Parliament will recall that the cadastre was closed to try and clean up all the mining licences issues. As we speak, only properly authenticated licences are being issued. So, the first exercise was to clean up.

 Madam Speaker, secondly, there are various amendments that are being made to the Mines and Minerals Act, again, to ensure that we safeguard our mineral resources.

 Madam Speaker, thirdly, appropriate regulations are being put in place, including the establishment of a commission in the mine sector, to ensure that the mineral resources that are being mined are properly accounted for. So, we are taking appropriate action to ensure that whatever resource we have and the revenue that is generated there from are available to the people of Zambia.

 Madam Speaker, those actions are being taken.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister served in the previous administration. There was a company called the Zambia Gold Company that was established by the State for the purpose of the management of gold. The Bank of Zambia (BoZ) was tasked with the duty to buy gold and reserve the gold bullion for and on behalf of the Zambian people.

 Madam Speaker, now that the information seems to be spreading from Lumezi, Mkushi, Kasenseli, Kanyelele, Ngabwe and, of course, Mumbwa, what is the Government’s position, bearing in mind the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan that we require more revenue so that we can sustainably deal with our domestic issues as a country? What is the Government’s position concerning the Zambia Gold Company? Have we abandoned it because it was begun by the previous administration or it is one of the best ideas that we can continue with for the good of the Zambian people?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, as we sit here today, over a US$100 million in gold has been purchased through the Zambia Gold Company. It will continue to be available to sell gold to the Central Bank, as and when it is available.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I have to declare interest that this area, where gold deposits are, is between Mpika and the larger part of Shiwang’andu.

 Madam Speaker, we are aware that the only company that has an exploration licence in that area is Unicom. Our concern – we engaged the substantive hon. Minister last week and he assured us that there was going to be a platform for the stakeholders in the area to have a serious engagement on how we are going to manage that natural resource.

 Madam Speaker, I would like note from the hon. Minister what the ministry is doing to curb this seemingly increasing impunity because what is obtaining in the Luapula area over sugilite scandals – and now there is a second one – is exactly what is happening in this area between Shiwang’andu and Mpika where, people, with impunity, move into the area without a licence with equipment and start mining.

 

So, I want to know. If the Government does not move in quickly, with all of us as stakeholders, the local people in that area may start reacting. Where there are resources as in that area, there is a potential conflict in waiting. So, what is the Government doing to curb the kind of impunity that we have witnessed in Luapula and now getting into Muchinga Province?

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, obviously, we want to control the mineral resources, including the gold that is between Shiwang’andu and Mpika. As the hon. Member rightly said, the hon. Minister has engaged them, as stakeholders, to meet in Mpika to look at the problem and work with the Government to come up with a sustainable solution. I think that is a practical step.

 

Madam, we are going to accelerate those efforts so that the Government and other stakeholders meet as quickly as possible and discuss security measures that are going to be put in place so that we do not allow illegality, particularly in gold mining, in that area. So, we will take this as an urgent matter so that we plan and stop any illegal mining that has the potential of creating instability in the area.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses that he has been giving. I want to find out why the Government has continued to issue exploration licences when the mineral deposits are already identified. I am aware that there is another company called Unicom that has also been issued with an exploration licence.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, exploration licences are issued on the basis of the mapping of minerals that is carried out in a specific area. So, on the basis of things that we have done with the Mining Cadastre Department, there will be no overlap of any licence in any part of Zambia. So, whoever has been issued with a licence will be the bona fide holder of that license.

 So, the hon. Member should draw comfort that the duplications and the overlaps that were there and licences that were not appropriately issued have all been cancelled. New licences are being issued to ensure that we bring back order in the mining sector, in particular, in mineral exploration.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s answers, I think he has answered the question I wanted to ask which was when the Government was going to act, since the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika had really lamented that a named company and his youths in his constituency are doing illegal mining. However, he said, soon, it is going to act.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

 I will take the last four questions from the hon. Member for Nyimba, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, the hon. Member for Chipili and the hon. Member for Nalolo.

 Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I think if there is anything that has –

 Interruptions

 Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, the area being discussed also extends into Kanchibiya. As a matter of fact, one would find that accessibility is easier from Kanchibiya, going through Chief Mpepo’s Chiefdom.

 Madam Speaker, speaking to some of our mining engineers in this country, one thing they confirm is that Zambia literally sits on gold and has many gold deposits to compete with a country such as Ghana. However, I think the challenge we have is the high levels of greed and indiscipline. So, to what extent is the Government willing to bring order to this sector?

 

Madam, I am aware that there are those so-called exploration licenses being given, even in Kanchibiya, without the consultation, whatsoever, of local stakeholders. What is the Government doing to bring order and sanity to this sector? Clearly, we do not want to end up with situations where residents begin to take the law into their own hands against those who are coming from outside.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the issue that has been raised is substantive. The hon. Member made reference to Ghana. As we speak, the substantive Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has left for Ghana as part of the exercise to learn and bring prudent methods on how we can bring back order, particularly in the gold mining subsector.

Madam, I have already indicated the efforts that are being made in the revision of regulations. As the Government, we are taking this issue seriously, including the opportunity for the ministry to sit with stakeholders in various parts of the country where gold is, so that we can think and work together to create a more sustainable and beneficial arrangement to this resource that this country is endowed with. So, we are taking urgent and appropriate action to ensure that we bring back order to this mining subsector.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, does the Government have any intention to act or to start mining, as a State, without waiting for imperialists to tell it what to do with the gold that we have, so that we can sort out the debts? Enough is enough.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, it is no longer an intention to act. We are actually acting, as the Government. We have a subsidiary company under the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) which is undertaking the very exercise that the hon. Member is referring to. So, it is not an intention. We are actually doing it.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses. The Government always has details of who is exploring, but always has scanty details on who is mobilising. Who are those locals who have mobilised equipment and why are they just being referred to as locals? Which company is this?

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, we said, in the answer, that in the area that we are referring to in Mpika, there is some illegal mining by some locals. The illegal mining by some locals – The definition of locals could be people or anybody who is illegally coming in and going out, and that is the reason this Government has decided to go and engage on the ground to try and stem off the illegality that is taking place in Mpika and, indeed, any other part of Zambia where illegal mining is taking place.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Madam Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 There is an indication for a point of order. Hon. Member for Pambashe, you may proceed.

 A point of order is raised.

 Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Before I raise the point of order, let me welcome back the hon. Minister of Information and Media.

 We missed my sister, the Hon. Minister, and are happy to see her back in the Assembly Chamber.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 is very precise on consistency. In the ministerial statement, my elder brother, the hon. Minister for Technology and Science and now Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, earlier on said that the Government was not aware of any illegal activities in Kanyelele area. Now, he says that it is aware of the illegal activities by the local people. Which is which? Is the Government aware of the illegal activities in Kanyelele or not? Which position are we going to put in the Hansard?

 Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: That one sounds like a question.

 Mr Chitotela interjected.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, please. I am not asking for your response.

 Laughter

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 The hon. Minister on the Floor, you are confusing people because in the beginning, you said that the Government was not aware, but in your responses, you went on to say that it knows that there are some locals that are getting minerals from that area. So, it is a bit confusing. Maybe, as you respond to the last hon. Member to ask a question, you can, please, clarify so that the people in the House and those outside may know whether the Government is aware or not. That way, they will know that this time around, it is aware or was already aware.

Hon.. Member for Nyimba, you may proceed.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am happy that the Acting hon. Minister is a seasoned politician who has held very influential positions in this country. Now my question is: Looking back 20 years, what has been the problem with this country considering the minerals we have in everywhere in whichever constituency in Zambia that one goes?

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that in my constituency, when the rain season ends, vehicles from Tanzania flood the valleys, pick gold and go back. Eighty per cent of the gold that is mined by artisanal miners is taken out of this country because we do not have a system.

 Madam Speaker, what has been the problem in creating a system that could manage small areas where there is artisanal mining? Is there a problem that the current Government, like the previous ones from the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) and the Patriotic Front (PF) rule, cannot come up with a system of empowering locals by giving them artisanal mining licences immediately they discover that at a certain village, river or mountain has some deposits of gold? Is there a problem? We cannot keep on calling indigenous Zambians illegal miners. These are our resources.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, take into consideration that earlier request. You may proceed.

 Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, there is absolutely no inconsistency. Let me read the answer as I gave it. It says:

 “As of May 2023, the ministry conducted a verification exercise to ascertain the extent of illegal mining in Kanyelele area of Mpika. It was established that only local people were involved in illegal gold mining.”

 Madam Speaker, that is the response we gave, consistently.

 

As for the second question, Madam Speaker, this Government is giving artisanal mining licences for gold and other mining activities. So, we are basically empowering our people.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, the Government is aware. Thank you so much.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr B. Mpundu: Ask him to read the whole statement.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to ask a question. I also welcome back the hon. Minister of Information and Media.

 REHABILITATION OF HOUSES FOR VETERINARY EXTENSION OFFICERS IN MBABALA

 331. Mr. Munsanje (Mbabala) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

 (a)               when rehabilitation of houses for veterinary extension officers in the following areas in Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency will commence:

 (i)                 Mang’unza;

 (ii)              Mapanza; and

 (iii)            Muntanga;

 (b)               whether the Government has any plans to construct modern houses to supplement the ones already in place in the areas stated above; and

 (c)               if so, when the plans will be implemented.

 The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that veterinary extension services have been devolved to local councils. It is now their responsibility to construct and rehabilitate camp houses. This entails that local communities in Mang’unza, Mapanza and Muntanga should work closely with the Choma District Council to identify the needs of extension officers and on the use of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to construct and rehabilitate camp houses. Thus, the community and the local councils can now decide when the rehabilitation works should be done.

 Madam Speaker, the current veterinary extension staff houses were built in the colonial era and the Government has plans to construct modern camp houses. Our plans are to cluster veterinary extension staff houses with other government structures such as schools, clinics and other ‘amnates’ to ensure easy access …

 Mr Nkandu: Amenities!

 Mr Chikote: … to water, electricity and the internet. The old camp houses will then be used as offices for veterinary officers in their locations.

 Madam Speaker, this plan has been operationalised in Westwood and Turn Pike where my ministry has constructed modern veterinary extension services staff houses. My ministry’s role in the decentralisation process is to provide technical support to the Choma District Council and work closely with it to provide this support.

 Madam Speaker, as regards part (c) of the question, plans are in place and the modernisation of the camp houses will be implemented as communities decide on their priorities.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his comprehensive response on this very important question to the people Mbabala and, in particular, Mang’unza, which we are talking about.

 Madam Speaker, of course, we are lucky that we have partially planned for the rehabilitation of some of them, like the one at Mutanga, including the office. However, does the hon. Minister thinks that our council has the capacity to deal with the other ones which he has referred to the it since the services are just being referred to right now? Is the hon. Minister able to do something so that come next year, we will know that such houses are within the responsibility of our council.

 Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, this is the more the reason this Government had decided to increase the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). It is so that our communities can decide their priorities using the CDF because that is fund that is coming from the Government to help our communities to prioritise the programmes that they want to do in their respective communities.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, be reminded that this is a constituency based question. So, let us be mindful of that as we ask questions.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke, to ask a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Goats.

 Laughter

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Fisheries and what, hon. Member?

 Laughter

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member on the Floor, this is a very importation session. Let us try to be serious. We all know that there is only the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock and not goats. Can we be serious?

 Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am well guided.

 Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock thinking of undertaking the sensitisation of some hon. Members who do not understand the increment and usage of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) so that for projects such as the construction of camp houses, they can utilise some of it as there has been an increase from K25.7 million to K28.3 million, instead of them bringing those questions to this House and, thereby, waste time.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member, when a question is asked in the House, it does not waste time because the person who asks represents people in his constituency. So, let us avoid words like “wasting time” when a member brings a Motion or a question to this House. All questions are very important before this House.

 Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I think the researcher has over researched.

 Laughter

 Mr Chikote: In fact, Madam Speaker, the hon. Member was just trying to get clarity on whether there is any other envelop that the Government can top up on what he has as the CDF. The CDF is part and parcel of the hon. Member of Parliament. So, there is no need for me to conduct sensitisation amongst hon. Members of Parliament because they now it very well.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

 Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, with the successful signing of the Lobito Corridor Private Partnership (PP) amongst His Excellencies the Presidents of Zambia, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Angola obviously entails the provision of a huge market for beef products. The need to invest in this industry cannot be over emphasised because there is already a market which is coming ahead of us.

 Madam Speaker, using the CDF, is the hon. Minister encouraging not only the hon. Member for Mbabala, but also all hon. Members to quickly find means of investing in this industry to ensure that we quickly benefit from what is coming ahead of us?

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member for Kankoyo, like I mentioned earlier on, this is a constituency based question and is specifically talking about houses for extension officers. Can we, please, restrict ourselves to the question at hand and not the marketing of the end product. This question cannot accommodate that. Further, the issue of the CDF has already been responded to. So, we will skip that and move on to the hon. Member for Chipili.

 Mr Chala (Chipili): Madam Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s response to the question, he stated that the Government had the intention. When is this intention going to be actualised so that the people of Mbabala could have the hope that within that framework, some of the houses will be constructed?

 Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I stated that veterinary extension services have been devolved to local authorities. So, that is now the responsibility of our local councils, in conjunction with communities, as they identify their priorities. As a ministry, our job is to give them technical support on how to implement the plans of putting up modernised houses.

 I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simuzingili (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his answer, indicated that the extension services staff houses were built during the colonial era. Could the hon. Minister kindly confirm that the United National Independence Party (UNIP), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and the Patriotic Front (PF) never did anything? Can he also confirm, as he indicated –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Only one question, hon. Member.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, I can confirm that most of our camp houses that were constructed during the UNIP era are really in bad shape and need rehabilitation.

 Madam Speaker, in the few past regimes, there was very little done towards the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. There has been poor funding towards the sector. However, this administration has realised that this is a sector that can also turn the economic wheels of this country. Hence, we have started seeing an increase in budget allocation. Due to the limited resources envelop, we cannot do everything at the same time.

 Madam Speaker, if hon. Members look at the programmes the ministry has, it has even started recruiting extension officers. So, that is how this administration has applied itself towards this sector; by paying attention to really revamping and rekindling the sector because it believes it can create jobs and wealth for our people.

 So, going forward, I know there is much that the Government is going to do, especially that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is being increased so that people can identify the priorities in their communities.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will call upon the last hon. Member, the Hon. Member for Kalulushi.

 Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me, on behalf of the good people of Kalulushi, to ask the hon. Minister a question. Clearly the topic at hand is rehabilitation and, from his answers, there is a confirmation that the Government is trying to concentrate that.

 Madam Speaker, looking at what the previous Government did as regards rehabilitation in Mishinga in Kanchibiya –

 Mr Nkandu interjected.

 Ms Mulenga: I was once Minister.

 Madam Speaker, the previous Government did some rehabilitation, but the state of the houses that we are talking about where built in colonial days. Therefore, would it not be advisable that instead of rehabilitating – because some of them are in such poor state – why do we not construct them right from the beginning?

 Mr Nkandu: For the first time.

 Interruptions

 Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, indeed, even when we say local authorities must consider rehabilitating and constructing modern houses, we are saying that those which can be rehabilitated must be rehabilitated and, hopefully, turn them into offices. The hon. Member is aware that in most of these camps that we have, our officers do not even have offices to operate from. So, we are thinking that those old houses which can be rehabilitated can be turned into offices. Local authorities can then go ahead and put up modern houses for our staff, to motivate them at the same time.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have to make progress. We have to consider two reports and three Bills.

  NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARRESTED BY ACC FOR CORRUPTION FROM AUGUST 2021 TO AUGUST 2022.

 Mr. Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I thank you. Allow me to join Hon. Chitotela and express my gladness to see the hon. Minister of Information and Media.

 332. Mr Kafwaya asked the Vice-President:

 (a) how many people were arrested by the Anti-Corruption Commission for corruption from August 2021 to August 2022;

 (b)  how many cases had been taken to the courts of law; and

 (c)  how many convictions had been secured, as of August 2022.

 The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Member that there where sixty-eight people arrested from fifty-five cases between August 2021 and August 2022.

 Madam Speaker, forty-five cases where taken to the courts of the law.

 Madam Speaker, ten convictions, out of the forty five, where secured for the period under question.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank the Vice-President for that response. Forty-five cases where taken to court out of sixty-eight, leaving a balance of twenty-three. Is it Government Policy that for some of those cases the Government does not want to take to court, people should be convicted in the court of public opinion by the use of social media or, indeed, the Government controlled media?

 Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, that people involved in the sixty-eight cases, including those that have not been taken to court, should be convicted through the court of public opinion is not the intention at all. In fact, some of those cases that may not have been taken to court may have been dealt with internally. I must say that some of them have been cleared without necessarily going to court.

 Madam Speaker, others may have been cleared as they may have decided to move on under – Remember that here, we have been talking of the provision in the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act No. 19 of 2010. For some of them, under corruption, there is the invocation of Section 29, which provides for people to settle out of court. In such cases, the prosecutor can settle out of court, and people choose to declare and forfeit to the State. So, some of those cases may have gone under that route and, therefore, are no longer being prosecuted.

 Madam Speaker, let me also say that the issue of prosecution through the court of public opinion is, indeed, a very common thing today. Many times, it is the people who are summoned who take matters to the public media. Sometimes, people report with the media and the media enjoys blowing up matters. However, there are those who go silently and we may not even be aware that they have been summoned to the Anti-Corruption or indeed, arrested. However, people who are like me and the hon. Member like the public. So, the public gets involved because we inform them that we have been summoned or arrested.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, thank you so much. The benefits that can accrue from the fight against corruption cannot be over-emphasised. That is why this fight is important. We have made sixty-eight arrests. Now, there are new allegations of corruption such as hon. Ministers soliciting a K2 million cut from a sugilite scandal. What is the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) doing to ensure that those hon. Ministers who are soliciting amounts such as K2 million from …

 Hon. Government Members: Question!

 Ms Mulenga: Na mwina!

 Mr Kafwaya: … sugilite scandals can also join the sixty-eight who have been arrested by it?

 The  Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think that the hon. Member wants to extend his question. In his initial question, he was very specific about the period; August 2021 to August 2022. So, the question is also kind of limited to that. However, it is important. Nobody can over-emphasise the fight against corruption. That is why the long arm of the law will reach out to everybody. I think that this Government has worked to live by its declaration that it is going to govern by the rule of law. Anybody, including the people in the issue of sugilite he is talking about, has been arrested. Even today, we heard in this House that some people have been arrested. So, when one knows something that is illegal, it is important for one to go to the law enforcers to ensure that things happen. However, we do not want to prosecute people through the media, ...

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

 The Vice-President: … the court of public opinion, and this, he should not be tempted to make today because it may just go into a wrong place.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I understand and agree with the Her Honour the Vice-President that corruption is corruption. Whether one is at a lower or higher level, it is still perceived to be corruption. On the number that she has given us, the sixty-six arrests, is it possible that she can share with this House the number of those who are politically inclined or identified as politicians in society so that we know if there are any people who are politically exposed individuals …

Hon. Government Members: Who are corrupt.

Mr Tayengwa: …who are corrupt, of course.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think it is important to know that the corruption fight that has been going on has affected everybody; public, private, politically affiliated and non-politically affiliated. So, there are many of those cases. I do not know whether I will be cited for sub judice if I start going through them. Would just stating the cases be sub judice? I have my –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President, maybe, if they are still in court, it is better to avoid.

 The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, indeed, thank you for the advice. Just to name them would take me a long time, but I can lay the cases that are with me on the Table so that hon. …

 Interruptions

 The Vice-President: Iwe, iwe! Ichongo.

 Laughter

 The Vice-President: … Members can have sight instead of me going through all the sixty-eight; those that have been convicted, those that are – I think allow me to lay on the Table this kind of information. Those that have been convicted will be on a list, if it is allowed.

 Hon. Members: That is contempt!

 The Vice-President: That will be contempt?

 Hon. Members: Yes!

 The Vice-President: Right. So, –

 Interruptions

 The Vice-President: I think that is why I have left it to the hon. Madam Speaker to give me guidance. I have the information of who is where, but let me be guided.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can lay the papers on the Table. She can lay them? (Madam Speaker consulting the Clerks at the Table)

 I think the most important thing is to not discuss the matters that are still in court. However, just for public information, if it wants to know who is there, there is no harm.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can lay the papers on the Table, but what is important is to not discuss the cases that are before the courts.

 We can make progress.

 The Vice-President took a moment to consult with Hon. Haimbe, SC.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President, if the material is not ready now, it can come later. There is no harm, so that we can progress. It can be laid later.

 Hon. Government Members: It is ready!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Okay.

 The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the information is here, as much as possible.

 Hon. Government Members: Mwa mona?

 The Vice-President laid the papers on the Table.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. We can make progress.

 Mr C. Mulenga (Kwacha): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me to ask a supplementary question to Her Honour the Vice President on behalf of the people of Kwacha Constituency. Before I do that, allow me to also join my other hon. Colleagues to welcome our hon. Minister of Information and Media back into the House.

 Ms Mulenga: Mu na mu lowa!

 Mr C. Mulenga: Madam Speaker, may I find out from Her Honour the Vice-President how much recovery my Government has made from those corruption cases that have been pursued so far. Is she able to indicate in this House, probably, the figures that have been recovered from those cases of corruption, from those that have forfeited proceeds of crime?

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not know whether Her Honour the Vice-President can answer that because the question is very specific. It is talking about people who were arrested, how many cases have been taken to court and how many convictions have been secured. I think that is a different question altogether.

 Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, forty-five cases were taken to court and only ten convictions were secured. Is Her Honour the Vice-President happy with the rate of convictions?

 The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think it is important to note that I did state that some of the cases have been disposed of through the provision under the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act. The question is: Am I happy? I would like everybody to be convicted, but that is not the way it is. Further, some of the cases are still in the courts of law.

 Mr Mabeta: Correct!

 The Vice-President: Forty-five cases have not been disposed of. They are still running in the courts of law because of the complicated prosecution of white collar crime.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker:

 Mr Kangombe (Sesheke): Madam Speaker, what message does Her Honour the Vice-President have for some of the hon. Members who have allegedly committed financial crimes? What advice can she give them with regard to taking such issues to social media?

 The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, there are those who are alleged to have committed financial crimes and, the hon. Member is saying, are using social media to cry out. Please, that is not the way to go because they expose themselves even more.

 Mr Mabeta: Correct!

 The Vice-President: They should let the law take its course. They should let the due process of the law take its course. Then, they will be exonerated. Otherwise, they invite more enemies to themselves. There is so much poverty in the country and people will hate anybody who is alleged to have committed a financial crime that they may see as disadvantaging them. So, it is important that we allow the due process of the law. Social media will not help them at all.

 

Madam Speaker, the cry we heard from the hon. Member for Lunte was that they are just exposing themselves, and if the court of public opinion convicts them, they should not blame anybody because they are over-exposing themselves. So, my advice is that they should let the due process of the law be taken, so that when they are exonerated, acquitted and so on and so forth, everybody will say that they saw it. However, social media will not help them. It may even convict them faster.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 PLANS TO CONSTRUCT MINI-HOSPITALS IN MUFUMBWE CONSTITUENCY

 333. Mr. Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Health:

 (a) whether the Government has any plans to construct mini-hospitals in the following wards in Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency:

 (i)     Kalambu;

 (ii)     Kaminzekenzeke; and

 (iii)     Kashima East; and

 (b)               if so, when the plans will be implemented.

 The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I take note that this question came after we had classified the various hospitals. So, I think what the hon. Member of Parliament is trying to ask is when the Government will construct health centres in these three areas.

 Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct more health facilities countrywide, and has identified an area called Kaminzekenzeke for the construction of one.

 Madam Speaker, there are plans to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to construct a health facility in three phases in Kalambu Ward. Therefore, the Government will not construct any other health facility in that area.

 Madam Speaker, preliminary site investigations were undertaken in the fourth quarter of 2022 and the project for the construction of hospitals and health facilities in the country is ongoing. The contractor is expected to move on site in the fourth quarter of 2023.

 Madam Speaker, going forward, I would like hon. Members of Parliament to, once again, take note of the classifications, as stated in the responses to previous questions. Further, the House may wish to note that the construction of health service delivery structures will be dependent, on among others, the catchment population, distance and other epidemiological considerations.

 Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the clarifications that she has made today. She may be aware that when this issue of mini-hospitals came up, there were some areas, like Mufumbwe, which never benefitted. Most of those areas are very far from the main hospitals.

 Madam Speaker, she has told us that in Kalambu, we have, indeed, used the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to start constructing another level hospital, something that is better than the one which is there.

 Madam Speaker, in Kashima, the population has increased, and we thank the Government that there are plans to construct a health facility in Kaminzekenzeke.

 Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister not think that it would also be prudent to consider Kashima East because the population is quite big and the distance is very far? We are actually experiencing situations in which pregnant women are failing to deliver and some of them are dying on the way.

 Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his follow-up question. I will answer his question in the following terms, and hope that other hon. Members can also take note. First of all, we must consider the fact that primary healthcare is being decentralised. What that means is that health posts and health centres will be under local authorities. Currently, many of the hon. Members of Parliament have found it necessary to construct health posts or health centres. This is all in an effort to give a better service to their communities.

 Madam Speaker, I also want hon. Members to take note that around health centres, whether they are in the urban or rural constituencies, there is a directive that they should now include a maternity wing. It must be ensured, also, that there is water and good sanitation.

 Madam Speaker, in the reclassified categories, all health centres in Zambia will now have maternity wings. As a result, there is a consideration for reclassifying even the number of health workers or the categories of health workers that should now be found at health centres.

 Madam Speaker, when hon. Member of Parliaments decide to construct, they will make a decision on whether they should construct a health post or a health centre. The Government will come through and work with hon. Member of Parliament in their various areas to see what priorities they would have set for themselves and partner with them to help them. For example, if their health post or centre is finished, obviously, they need equipment and staff. So, what that means is that we have to plan.

 Madam Speaker, as I said the last time, we are already assessing and analysing the real needs, according to the priorities that have been set by every district, so that we can say, this year, we expect so many health facilities to be constructed. We know that once they are constructed, we can support them by furnishing them with the necessary equipment and furniture as well as the planning and deploying of staff.

Madam Speaker, what we do not want is a situation where, 150 hon. Members of Parliament – For example, I have seen that some hon. Members of Parliament are even putting up three health posts in their constituencies, and we find that we are only able to support them towards one. For the other two, we may take another two to three years. Now, that could be uneconomical, if I may use that word. If we do that, I think it will mean that we are not being smart enough. So, we need to work very closely.

 Madam Speaker, I also want to say that the Government’s plan is to facilitate the construction of health posts, health centres and hospitals, which are district hospital levels 1, 2, 3 and 4. That is in the bigger plan of the Government. We shall continue constructing health facilities of all categories, as a Government. However, as I said, Members of Parliament, using the Constituency Development fund (CDF), now are constructing two; health posts and health centres. So, they should be clear about what they are constructing.

 Mr Speaker, hon. Members must align themselves to the New Dawn Government’s policies, guidelines and regulations. They should not continuously remain in the past because the past is confusing. As the New Dawn, we have a manifesto that we, ourselves, campaigned upon.

 So, what am I saying about Kashima East? The hon. Member of Parliament may decide, ...

 Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 Mr Kamboni: The hon. Minister is talking.

 

Mrs Masebo: ... with his community, that it is a priority for them and they will budget for it, and construct a health centre or a health post. However, if that health centre is a priority, but the hon. Member of Parliament –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Mrs Masebo: ... is unable to construct it, the Government can take it over –

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 A point of order is raised.

 Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am rising on point order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, 1 (a).

 Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister on the Floor is one of the most experienced hon. Ministers on your right.

Mr Mabeta: Correct.

Mr Kampyongo: She has been part of all the Governments ...

 Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: ... including the New Dawn Government. Is she in order to insinuate that the past, which she was a part of, is more confusing than now?

Madam Speaker, experienced hon. Ministers like her are supposed to teach people that the Government is a going concern. Further, she should be the first one to orient and teach these new comers. Is she in order, as experienced as she is, to –

Mr Kafwaya: To disassociate herself from the past.

Ms Mulenga: To confuse everyone.

Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Order!

What is the breach?

Mr Kampyongo: The New Dawn, the New Deal, the Patriotic Front (PF) and the United National Independence Party (UNIP) –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you, please, cite the breach committed?

Mr Kampyongo: Is she in order to portray a picture to this august House and the nation that the past is more confusing to her than the present when the present is just a continuation of her tour of duty ...

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: ... because she has been on a tour of duty?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Kampyongo: I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Ms Mulenga: She created it.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Of course, the hon. Member who raised the point of order did not even cite –

 Ms Mulenga: He cited.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I did cite Standing Order 65 1 (a).

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Minister on the Floor is the current Minister, and she has had the chance to look at what was there before and what is there now. She has compared the two and has concluded that what was there before was more confusing than what is there now.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, that is the hon. Minister of Health.

 Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, sure.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, that is the situation. Before her, she is saying, what was there was confusing and what is there now is not.

 Laughter

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, with that in mind, as she answers or gives the response, she is actually in order because she is able to compare and say this thing was confusing than this one which is there now. So, I would say she is not out of order.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister will continue.

 Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, thank you for teaching young people that experience is the best teacher.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I was talking about Kashima East and saying ...

 Mr Kamboni: Ba mu tendekafye

 Mrs Masebo: ... that whilst the issue of primary health has been decentralised and communities can make decisions and spend their money, which is the CDF, the Central Government will continue to also construct health centres, where the need arises. In that regard, I was concluding that this administration, this year, next year and beyond 2026 when President Hakainde Hichilema will still be in the Government, we will continue to construct them.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Madam Fist Deputy Speaker: Maybe let me just give a bit of a guide. We do not have young people. We have hon. Members of Parliament in this House. So, let us try to avoid using those words like “young people,” “old people” and the like. There are only hon. Members of Parliament in the House.

 Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I attentively listened to the hon. Minister’s responses in relation to the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Mufumbwe. However, I seek further clarification. The wards which were mentioned, the hon. Member said they are vast.

 Now, at what rate will these clinics and health posts be upgraded to better levels which will demand a doctor so that people will not depend on the doctor who will be centred at the district? At what rate will these centres or health posts be upgraded so that the distribution of doctors is increased in those wards?

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, although it is totally a new question. The hon. Minister of Health may take it if she has a response.

 Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, yes. I want to thank the hon. Member for the supplementary question. As I indicated, the reclassification will also look at what staff must be at health centres looking at the fact that, now, health centres are being expanded to include maternity wings. So, the issue of doctors may not only be at district level, but also even at some health centres. Depending on the population and functions that are being tabulated, we will find senior medical staff as well.

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours 

 [MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, first of all, allow me to congratulate the Ministry of Health for having brought back health kits which are now in the clinics after five years of absence from our health system.

 Mr Speaker, when is the hon. Minister of Health likely to come to the House and give us a list of services which can no longer be given by the ministry and have been pushed to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) because it has increasingly become a repeated answer. Whenever there is a question, we are told to use the CDF.

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member that he has, at least, recognised some work that the New Dawn Government has done in the area of logistics.

 

Now, coming to the actual question on the use of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in the health sector, I thought that hon. Members were very happy with it because now, them and their communities can decide what they want to use the CDF for ...

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mrs Masebo: ... be it in education, health, cultural functions, commerce and empowerment programmes or anything representing all these ministries that are in the Government of today. If they make a decision that they want to invest in agriculture, nobody will question them.

The only difference now, Mr Speaker, is that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, as Minister responsible, has given some policy guidelines on the CDF. One of the important guidelines is that the CDF must go towards health and education and, of course, agriculture and empowerment programmes because those are the things communities keep asking for. They want water, education and good health. Those are the major demands of most of our communities almost throughout the country, including good roads. For that reason, the President, through the New Dawn Government, decided that we give more resources to constituencies and districts so that they are able to do something. However, that does not mean that line ministries such as the Ministry of Health must now abrogate their responsibility, for example, to construct clinics. We have not said that we have stopped constructing clinics because there is the CDF. All we have said is that there is a need now for harmonisation between the priorities of the community, the local government and the Central Government so that there is no duplication and wastage of resources whereby, we put up a school without desks or houses for teachers and, in the long run, that school just becomes a white elephant. So, the short answer is that the Ministry of Health, like any other sector or Government department, has not abrogated its role or function of providing more health facilities in the country, especially where there is a need. No, we have not done that.

 Mr Speaker, in my last answer, I, in fact, tried to take time to explain that in this year’s budget, for example, we have provided for the construction of infrastructure, meaning that we can construct health centres, clinics and hospitals

We are doing that even as I speak. Next year, we shall continue to do that. So, there just has to be to some synergies so that there is no duplication.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Mr Speaker

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order on the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu East, Hon. Dr Kalila.

 Mr Speaker, the background to my point of order is that the definition of a hospital is a place where you treat patients with diseases or injuries. A small hospital is known as a mini-hospital. By population, a place may not qualify to have a first level hospital, but the distance to the next hospital may.

Mr Amutike: Which Standing Order?

Dr Chilufya: Standing Order No. 65 (b). The population may qualify a place to have a mini- hospital with a smaller scale operation and lesser human capital.

 Mr Speaker, Hon. Dr Kalila is a renowned health specialist, globally, and the Chairperson of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Health Committee.

 Dr Kalila: Question!

 Dr Chilufya: Current or former. Is he in order to sit quietly there, ...

 Hon. Member: Where?

 Dr Chilufya: ... behind the hon. Minister of Health and not guide her on the importance of mini-hospitals …

 Laughter

 Dr Chilufya: … and not teach her on what a mini-hospital is and its importance? He is busy there allowing the hon. Minister to mislead the House and the nation that mini-hospitals are not important and that she is abolishing them when there are more than 100 mini-hospitals.

 Mr Speaker, mini-hospitals accelerate progress towards universal health coverage …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Dr Chilufya: … and are a very important aspect of the global agenda and the UPND agenda for universal health coverage. Is that doctor, 

 Laughter

 Dr Chilufya: … a member of the Zambia Medical Association (ZMA), in order to sit like that and allow the hon. Minister to confidently mislead the country and the House on serious health systems matters?

Interruptions

 Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I need a very serious ruling on this matter.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 Mr Munsanje: Send him out!

 Laughter

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, as much as you want me to make this ruling, you kept on debating and convincing, I do not know whether it is yourself, that what you were saying was right. However, you have debated your point enough that my hands are tied to make a ruling.

 Laughter

 Hon. Member: Ema Speakers aya!

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you were supposed to cite what rule had been breached. However, you kept convincing – I do not know whether it is yourself or the House. So, I think I am conflicted to make a ruling. Let us make progress.

 The hon. Member for Nyimba Constituency, you may proceed.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker, Mufumbwe is a vast constituency. I think it is one of the biggest constituencies in the country, just like Nyimba. The issues of mini-hospitals, clinics and health posts, to a layman like me, are just confusing. What I know is that when people say, “We need a clinic, pano tifuna paliya chipatala” meaning, we do not have a clinic here, I need to tell the Constituency Development Fund Committee(CDFC) that people are requesting for a clinic.

 Yes, I have been interacting with doctors. Now, if we look at the definition of a clinic, health post, maternity and all these things, is her ministry – because I have checked different diagrams and plans and some old mini-hospitals, so called, are now turning into another language.

 Does the Department of Infrastructure in the Ministry of Health have the plans which it can distribute to respective district directors, who are now part of the CDFCs, so that they can tell us that this population at this area needs such a facility and costs this much? They can also say that looking at this population at this area which is huge, we need this facility. From there, we can know how to plan, and if we tell her that we are building five clinics in Mufumbwe, she should know the support we need from her.

 Mr Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is: Does the Department of Infrastructure have plans which it can relay to CDFCs so that as we are being advised by her directors, we know what to build at a certain stage? For now, what we have is confusing.

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, this is why I have laboured every time to try and to explain to my hon. Colleagues here exactly what we are doing. So, my plea is that when I am explaining, they must take a bit of time just to listen in. If they have questions or clarifications, since we are in the same House, they can move to my desk and we can converse or they can come to the office.

 Mr Speaker, the matter is very simple, and what is sad is that those who have created this confusion still come back here to create even more confusion, which is unfortunate.

Mr Munsanje: Hear, hear!

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate because when you look at the confusion that we have in this country, today, in a number of sectors, especially health, if people had heart, they would not even be talking.

 Mr Speaker, the etiquette of the Government is continuous. Those from whom others take over should not be heard trying to question decisions in the manner some have been doing on this issue of the health sector, which does not build, really. It is like we are in a competition. When people lose or are moved from a seat, they must accept …

 Mr Mposha: And support.

 Mrs Masebo: … and support those who take over. That is how it is done.

Mr Speaker, we have been there in certain positions. Those who have been long in this House will tell that once I move to the middle bench and there is another Minister of Health, if you check the Hansard, you will never find that I ask a question to try and demean the one who is there. I have never done that. It is not done, okay.

Mr C. Chibuye: Question!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, it is not done.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: So, my way of answering this question is that there is confusion. That is why we are trying to clean it up. The President told us that there is confusion. So, we are trying to put things in order. Two years down the lane, even before the two years have passed, we are able to show the travels and everything.

Mr Speaker, our hon. Colleagues must help by supporting us. When they think there is something wrong, they must come and talk us and we will listen when they have a point. However, they must not try to use this Floor of the House to try and cause more confusion because it does not help the country.

Mr Speaker, to just answer my brother’s question, specifically, I want to say that the confusion he is talking about, I agree with him, is confusion. There is confusion which was left behind and that is why we are cleaning up, but the people who caused the confusion are refusing us to correct the mess.

 Hon. PF Members: Question!

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, what it is is this: We have reclassified. How can it be difficult for somebody to understand? We have reclassified. This is our own making now. They should give us a chance. They should not take us back into their confusion, no. They should allow us to proceed because we always move forward.

 Mr Munsanje: Yes.

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, what I want to say is that, yes, he is right. That is why we are trying to make it easier for him. He should just know that there is a health post and a clinic. For us, a mini-hospital is called a health centre. It is nothing, but a health centre.

 Mr Speaker, I would like to inform my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba that when we say something is a hospital, it must have what it takes to be called a hospital. It must have what it takes. For example, when you call something a secondary school, it must look like one. You cannot have a two or three roomed place and say it is a secondary school. We do not do that. That can even be a nursery, to this Administration. So, what they call a mini-hospital, for us, is not a hospital, but just a simple health centre. We shall be constructing more of the same health centres ...

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mrs Masebo: ... and some of them even better, but we will still call them health centres. For a hospital, they will see how it looks like.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, today, this issue of mini-hospitals and clinics has been brought to bed.

 Hon. Government Members: Yes!

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think, at some point, we will waste a lot of time because any Government has its own model or classification of certain facilities depending on what it wants that facility to be accompanied by. So, I think this issue, today, has been brought to bed. We should all make progress. We move on to the second question. This question was constituency based.

 Laughter

 REHABILITATION OF THE MASANSA/OLD MKUSHI ROAD

 334. Mr. C. Chibuye (Mkushi North) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

 (a)               whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Masansa/Old Mkushi Road;

 (b)               if so, when the project will commence;

 (c)               what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is; and

 (d)               if there are no such plans, why.

 The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC,.) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the Masansa/Old Mkushi Road.

 Madam Speaker, the project will commence once the Treasury has secured funds for the works.

 Madam Speaker, the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project will be known once the detailed designs are done and a contractor is procured.

 Madam, as indicated above, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the road in issue.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr C. Chibuye: Mr Speaker, I know for sure that the road that we are talking about is of high economic value and the hon. Provincial Minister seated behind the Acting hon. Minister can attest to the fact that the road that we are talking about is, indeed, of high economic value.

Mr Speaker, are there immediate measures that the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development can put in place to try and make the road in question motorable, especially in the rainy season?

 Mr Haimbe, SC,.: Mr Speaker, we do recognise the importance of the road in issue. As regards what can be done in the interim, the Road Development Agency (RDA) intends to undertake some gravelling works on the road. The scope of work was determined following an assessment which was undertaken in May 2023. It will cost a sum of K7.9 million and the implementation of the works is expected to start soon with the RDA doing the allocation of the necessary funds.

 So, there is a solution in sight, at least, for the interim although, of course, the intention is to upgrade the road to bituminous standard.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Next question. This question was constituency-based.

 PLANS TO INTRODUCE CHINESE LANGUAGE AS A SUBJECT IN ALL SCHOOLS

 335. Mr Fube (Chilubi) (on behalf of Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Education:

 (a)               whether the Government has any plans to introduce the Chinese Language as a subject in all schools, countrywide;

 (b)               if so, when the language will be introduced; and

 (c)               if there are no such plans, why.

 The Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu) (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to introduce the Chinese Language as a subject in all schools, countrywide, because it is prescribed as an optional subject.

 Sir, hon. Members may also wish to note that the Chinese Language, as an optional foreign language, like French, was introduced in the Zambian Government schools in 2014 in line with the school curriculum of 2013. The Ministry of Education started offering the subject in ten selected secondary schools, one in each province.

 Mr Speaker, due to the response to part (a), part (b), obviously, falls out.

 Mr Speaker, there are no such plans because the Chinese Language is prescribed as an optional subject in the Zambia Education Curriculum Framework (ZECF), and is taught in schools as such.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, this opportunity to ask a supplementary question to the Acting hon. Minister of Education, who happens to be the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts.

 Mr Speaker, in Zambia, the official language we use is from our superpower countries such as the United States of America (USA). China is one of the upcoming superpowers.

 Hon. Opposition Members: It is a superpower!

 Mr J. E. Banda: It is a superpower already, according to the research that I have conducted.

 Laughter

 Mr J. E. Banda: Since it is a superpower, is the Government thinking – I know the hon. Minister has said it does not have immediate plans to introduce the Chinese Language as a subject in all schools. However, as a country, Zambia needs funding from all superpower countries. In short, it needs some support from them. Why can the Government not reconsider the introduction of Chinese ni hao since China is also a superpower?

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It is difficult to even call upon the hon. Minister. We do not use English in class because it is spoken by superpowers.

 Interruptions

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We use English because we are a former British protectorate. It was an official language at the time of our forefathers. So, we do not use it necessarily because Britain is a superpower, no.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker called on the hon. Member for Kafue

 Mr Fube: I am the owner of the question!

 Hon. Government Members: Why are you protesting?

 Mr Fube: Yes, I am the owner of the question.

 Interruptions

 Mr Fube: Read your Standing Orders. I am supposed to ask twice.

 Mr Speaker, I want to ask, since the hon. Minister did indicate that the Chinese Language was introduced in the curriculum in 2014 as an option. The question is clear. It does not say make it compulsory. I would like to qualify the question. It is talking about Mandarin Chinese. The hon. Minister indicated that it was introduced in schools, but we have not seen schools that are teaching it as an optional subject, so far. Maybe, he can list down the schools that are offering it as an optional subject. The question did not say “compulsory.”

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you know that under such circumstances, the hon. Minister would not be able to list down the schools. Even you, if you were the hon. Minister and were asked such a question, I do not think you would be able to list down the schools. However, the hon. Minister needs to shed some more light on it.

 Mr Nkandu: Mr Speaker, firstly, I want to thank you for assisting me to answer the over researched hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central. Let me also emphasise the fact that we do not use these languages because we are looking for money.

 Mr Mulunda: Imagine!

 Mr Nkandu: That is a very retrogressive way of doing things, and very confusing.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Hon. Opposition Members: Naupya!

 Laughter

 Mr Nkandu: Mr Speaker, coming to the current question, I indicated that right now, we have ten selected schools offering the Chinese Language, one in each province. Unless someone wants me to just mention the schools. However, I mentioned in my response that ten secondary schools do offer the Chinese Language. In fact, I can mention Sesheke Secondary School, ...

 Ms Sefulo: Yes, yes!

 Mr Nkandu: ... Chunga Primary School and Chiswa Primary School, in the Eastern Province. So, these are just some of the schools that are offering this language as an optional subject.

 Mr Speaker, I think it is also important to say that it could be difficult to make it compulsory, and I am sure hon. Members know the reasons. We would need to revise our curriculum, construct more classrooms, procure more implements, buy more equipment, recruit more teachers and so on and so forth. I am happy that we have one hon. Member in the House who we could recruit.

 Mr Mubika: Kaumbwe!

 Mr Nkandu: If we came to that level, we would be able to rethink and see if the hon. Member for Kaumbwe would be willing. However, I think it is something that needs to be budgeted for.

 Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kafue, to ask this supplementary question on the Chinese Language.

 Laughter

 Mrs Chonya: Seriously, Mr Speaker, part of my question, I think, has been over taken. I wanted to ask how many schools are offering the language.

 Mr Speaker, the other part of the question is whether we actually have the number of teachers that are offering the Chinese Language because this information is captured in the Education Statistical Bulletin. I do not know if the hon. Minister is in a position to share that data with the House.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think the hon. Minister may not be able to have, –

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hmm!

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 It is not possible that he may have the exact number on file on how many schools and Chinese Language teachers there are.

 Let us make progress. The owner of the question.

 Mr Fube: There is a very bad comment that has come from there. (pointing to the right). I hope you heard it.

 I will see you outside.

 Laughter

 Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the Chinese Language is part of the curriculum as an option. We know, for instance, that French is part of the curriculum as an option as well as other subjects. All the subjects that are adopted as part of the curriculum have material that has been developed to that effect so that pupils that may want to undertake a particular subject may have reference material. Has the Government ventured into developing material for the Chinese Language in the ten schools that the hon. Minister mentioned?

 Mr Nkandu: Mr Speaker, the answer is no. Let me also emphasise the fact that even the Chinese Language teachers we are using at the moment are just Chinese speaking volunteers facilitated by a memorandum of understanding (MoU) signed between our two countries. So, we have not yet explored the issue the hon. Member has suggested.

 I thank you, Sir.

 Mr Chala (Chipili): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The ministry is propagating to introduce the Chinese Language. Has it ever thought of looking at the subjects that our children learn where they study nine subjects instead of three or four subjects just as in China?

 Ms Sefulo: How?

 Mr Chala: There are only three or four subjects that students take in China. The hon. Member for Kaumbwe can confirm that they take only three or four.

 Dr Mwanza: Four!

Mr Chala: Four. Why should we be taking nine? Could we have that deliberate policy where we can look at our curriculum and reduce the overloading of our children.

Mr B. Mpundu: Ba sambilila Proconsul na Homohabilis.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

That question is a bit out of context because we are talking about the Chinese Language. Now, you want to talk about the overall curriculum.

Let us make progress.

Hon. Member for Roan, you may proceed.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that, today, China is a growing nation. For most of our Zambian students that are sent to China, the first thing that they do is learn the Chinese Language in the first year. My daughter was there for five and studied the Chinese Language throughout.

Madam Speaker, we have a lot of Chinese investment in our country and it is becoming a challenge in institutions whereby there are parallel structures. Whenever communiqués pass through offices, there is the Chinese and the Zambian languages on the documents, which is making it very difficult for our Zambians to understand what is transpiring in those institutions.

 Mr Speaker, is the ministry not thinking of starting the ball rolling now to ensure that we start actually taking the Chinese Language in some institutions? I know the hon. Minister already answered. However, seriously speaking, is the ministry not thinking of starting the ball rolling to ensure that Chinese Language becomes part of our languages?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Maybe you can shade a bit of light, hon. Minister.

Mr Nkandu: Mr Speaker, maybe, to clear this issue, I think I indicated that in secondary schools, we have both academic and vocational career pathways. This means that in some secondary schools, we restrict the offering of vocational or academic pathways, especially when it comes to optional subjects. So, what we are saying is that under the academic pathway, we offer two options and two under the vocational pathway.

So, as I said earlier, in the meantime, we have about ten secondary schools that are offering the Chinese Language as an option. We are also aware, as the Government, that, indeed, China is one of the biggest trade partners for Zambia. That we understand. The more the reason we had to start offering this language as an option in secondary schools. However, we are trying to first see how this works and then, maybe, we could look at the option that the hon. Member has given the Government. I also indicated that if we want to implement that, we also need to change a lot of requirements by interrogating our curriculum, which will also give us a lot of work to do. That I would confirm.

Mr Speaker, so, maybe, the answer is a no at the moment. However, it is something that we are really looking at.

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. Wei le Zhong zan, …

Laughter

Dr Mwanza: … wenhaujiaoliujiachangjiaoyi!

Ms Sefulo: Meaning?

Dr Mwanza: I will translate. It means, “For enhanced cultural exchange between China and Zambia and trade cooperation.”

Mr Speaker, the efforts by the Government to introduce the Chinese Language in Zambia is welcome, and so are the efforts from the Chinese Government. The House might be aware that the University of Zambia (UNZA) has the Confucius School, kongzǐxuéyuàn. The school offers the Chinese Language up to degree level. So, you study for four years.

Mr Speaker, when you go to the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA) and the Levy Mwanawasa General Hospital, most of the signs are written both in Chinese and English languages.

 Mr Munsanje: Which is wrong!

 Laughter

 Dr Mwanza: You find “exit” …

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, ask your question.

 Dr Mwanza: … is written cóngzhèlǐtuìchū. In many places, there is all that China-Zambia cultural and traditional interactions.

Sir, the efforts the Government is making to introduce Chinese Language as an optional language in ten secondary schools is much welcome and in the right direction. Is the Ministry of Education thinking of making it as one of the criteria for university or collage entrance requirements? For example, if you go to the University of Zambia, School of Education, the minimum criteria is English is an official language and one has to get a credit or better. So, could we consider that for one to enter a course, one needs a second foreign optional language and not just specifying the Chinese Language, but just other foreign languages for entrance into tertiary education?

 Mr Nkandu: Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to agree with the hon. Member and say that in 2017, the Ministry of Education, with the collaboration of the Confucius Institute at the University of Zambia (UNZA), developed the Chinese Language Syllabi for junior and secondary school education. There is also an MoU that was signed, just as added information, between the Ministry of Education and the Government of the People's Republic of China, through the Embassy of China, obviously, again, in collaboration with the Confucius Institute at the University of Zambia. So, that has been done, but where we will not commit ourselves is to the issue of someone getting to tertiary education to have a second language. We have not reached there. The languages are just options, which are being practiced at the secondary level. So, when we get there, we will be able to update the nation.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us make progress.

 _______

 MOTIONS

 REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES ON THE PERFORMANCE AUDIT REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE PROVISION OF MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES IN ZAMBIA 2018 -2021

 Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the Performance Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Provision of Mental Health Services in Zambia for the Period 2018 – 2021, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 28^th June, 2023.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 Ms Nakaponda: Mr Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 198 (g), of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021, a Parliamentary Committee is mandated to consider audit reports referred to it by the Speaker or a resolution of the House.

In this regard, the Committee was tasked to consider the Performance Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Provision of Mental Health Services in Zambia for the Period 2018 – 2021 for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly that was referred to it by the House. Mr Speaker, the object of the audit was to assess whether the Ministry of Health had put in place measures to efficiently and effectively provide mental health care services at all levels of health service provision.

Mr Speaker, the performance audit was motivated by the increase in the number of new mental health patients in Zambia. You may wish to note that in 2016, 19,733 new mental health patients were seen at mental health institutions across the country out of which 8 per cent were treated for depression. Secondly, the 6^th President of the Republic of Zambia, in his speech on Ethics and Values of the Fifth Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, on 12^th February, 2021, stated that the high rate of suicides, which is related to mental health, amongst citizens was of concern. He further stated that suicide rates were reported to be 17.5 per 100,000 males and 6.2 among women, a scenario that he indicated needed to be stemmed.

Mr Speaker, it was against this backdrop that the Auditor-General’s office found it prudent to conduct an audit so as to establish the extent of the provision of mental health services by the Ministry of Health in the country.

Mr Speaker, in order to interrogate the issues raised in the Performance Audit Report, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from relevant stakeholders. The House may wish to note that some stakeholders who appeared before your Committee expressed concern over the neglect of mental healthcare in Zambia.

 Mr Speaker, your Committee expresses concern on the absence of mental health services and units at most primary care level facilities. This is unacceptable considering the increase in the prevalence of mental disorders in Zambia which is approximately above 20 per cent. Your Committee observes that this situation is serious and calls for urgent attention.

 Mr Speaker, your Committee implores the Government, as a matter of urgency, to ensure that all health facilities have mental health units and are given the same attention as those of other illnesses in terms of infrastructure. Further, the units should be operationalised, have basic equipment, be secure to avoid absconders and also have seclusion wards that would enable health personnel to contain the violent patients.

 Mr Speaker, another issue of concern to your Committee is resource allocation to mental health services. Your Committee observes, with concern, that the allocation to mental health services of 2 per cent of the non-communicable diseases allocation for the period 2018 – 2021 was insufficient to facilitate provision of adequate mental healthcare to the general population. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that funding to the mental health sub-sector should be increased considering that it is paramount to personal wellbeing, productive family relationships and successful contribution to society.

 Further, your Committee was taken aback to learn that the Chainman Hills Mental Hospital, which is the largest provider of mental health services in the country, receives less than 20 per cent of essential psychotropic drugs per month from the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA). This has resulted in the facility using 30 per cent of its operational grant to procure drugs on a monthly basis to try and improve service delivery.

 Mr Speaker, this situation, if left unchecked, will result into mental health patients advancing to critical stages. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government urgently puts measures in place to ensure that the procurement of anti-psychotropic drugs is given the attention it deserves.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to express your Committee’s deep appreciation to all the stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before it.

 Mr Speaker, lastly, your Committee also appreciates your guidance and the service rendered by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Chinkuli: Now.

Interruptions

Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you so much for according me this opportunity to second this important Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the Performance Audit Report of the Auditor- General on the Provision of Mental Health Services in Zambia.

 Mr Speaker, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion, Ms Marjory Nakaponda, hon. Member of Parliament, for the manner in which she has highlighted the pertinent issues raised in your Committee’s report.

 Mr Speaker, allow me to briefly look at the pertinent issues that have come out of this report. This illness, the Government has not put much concern. I will tell you one thing that here, where we are seated, there are mental issues.

 Laughter

 Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, there are mental issue here.

 Interruptions

 Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, you may see someone seated quietly and think he is deep in thought of something that he probably wants to achieve, but he is sick. We have heard from the report that a number of people who were tested were stressed. People where suffering from stress. However, prima facie, we would look at them as though they are ok or sick.

 

Mr Speaker, the challenge that we are facing is the fact that when we see someone putting on rags, that is when we think that that person is sick, forgetting that even us who sit here have those challenges.

 Laughter

 Mr Chinkuli: So, to neglect ...

 Laughter

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member, how do you put this House into your debate?

 Laughter

 Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, we are potential mental health sufferers. So, it is better at times that we talk about ourselves before we go out there.

 Mr Munsanje: We do not debate ourselves.

 Mr Chinkuli: Most guided. It was on a lighter note.

 Interruptions

 Mr Chinkuli: Mr Speaker, the emphasis that I am just trying to put across is that the Government should ensure that all health facilities in the country have a provision where such disorders can be attended to.

 Mr Speaker, according to the report, a number of provinces and districts do not have those health facilities to a point that when someone is affected, they need to be transported. For instance, if someone gets sick in Mbala or Mansa, that one has to be brought to Lusaka. If there are no finances to ferry that person to Lusaka, that problem grows until we cannot curb it. What I am trying to say is that for any Government institution to operate, there must be a law. I believe the Ministry of Health is one such institution. There must be policies, guidelines and structures for mental health.

 Mr Speaker, if you look at Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No. 3, which we have adopted, it clearly states that each member country should ensure that there is universal health coverage. Among other things, we need to mobilise funds, in whatever way, to ensure that it materialises. We need to have human resource such as trained nurses that are going to look after such people.

 Mr Speaker, what is surprising, looking at the report, is that we do not have human resource to look after people who suffer from mental disability. We do not have structures, according to what is coming out of the report, in Chadiza, Mansa and Senanga. If these places are given such facilities, the challenges that the people in those areas will be facing in terms of mental disability will be a thing of the past.

 Mr Speaker, if the Government is just going to concentrate on Lusaka, it will be discriminating against those who are in rural areas, which is not a good thing. I would like to borrow what His Excellency the President mentioned when he said, “Whatever we do, we are not going to leave anyone behind.” If we are to achieve or materialise the topic that we have right now, it is just right that the Government mobilises resources to put up those structures. In areas where they need rehabilitation, can the Government rehabilitate them. The people who are suffering from mental health disability are human beings who have rights and they need to be attended to just as such.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, as I said, a number of us have that disability to a point that if we do not put our heads together and look for resources to come up with structures, we will be doing a disservice to ourselves and the Government.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, in supporting this very important report, I will restrict myself to, principally, four areas. I will speak to the prevalence rates, as captured by the report. I will make reference to some pieces of legislation which, in our view, as a people of Kanchibiya, need this House to consider for revision. I will then look at the state of mental health institutions as well as the need for community health systems and strengthening thereof.

Mr Speaker, the report tells us that the prevalence rate sits at approximately 20 per cent of the national population. At 20 per cent, in a country estimated to have a population of 19 million people, we are talking about 3.8 million Zambian citizens at risk. If we were to bring these statistics into this House, 20 per cent of 156 is 32. I want to bring it down to where we are so that we realise that we are dealing with a matter that calls for urgent attention by all of us.

Mr Speaker, it is very important, therefore, that this House agrees that for legislation, there is information that under the controlled substances list, there are certain drugs that ought to be used by mental patients. However, it is very difficult to bring these drugs into the country because they are classified as controlled substances. This is a matter that calls for urgent attention by all of us because we are either affected or we become victims.

Mr Speaker, regarding the levels of depression, we have looked at a number of suicide cases in this country, cutting across all ages. We cannot treat this matter with kid gloves. It is, therefore, important that these drugs which are supposed to be used by mental health patients, but classified under the controlled substances list, be lifted from there so that it becomes easier for mental patients to access treatment.

 

Mr Speaker, from what we have gathered or from what I have read, to bring in these drugs, we need express authority or permission from the Government. As we are dealing with statistics such as 3.8 million citizens in a population, approximately, there is every need for us to look at the controlled substances list.

 Mr Speaker, the report speaks to the dilapidated state of mental health institutions and the stigma attached to them. When we look at an institution like the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, just the mere mention of it makes one feel as though they are being taken to a prison, yet this is a facility where 20 per cent in this House can easily find themselves as candidates. Twenty per cent of the population can easily find itself as candidate.

 Mr Speaker, the need for us to improve the infrastructure and mental health institutions is critical. It is important, therefore, that we treat these issues as matters of urgency. We are told of the common forms of disorders, as we have seen, and this, again, has been spoken to by this very important report.

 Mr Speaker, it is very important that we go ahead to strengthen community health systems for mental health. It is also important that this House understands that this matter is not just a matter for the Ministry of Health or any other department of social welfare etcetera, but also everyone’s responsibility. Even for resource allocation, let us agree that we must allocate adequate resources to this matter. If we cannot respond effectively to a challenge such as this one, then we are playing ping-pong with a matter that affects all of us.

 Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to state that acute depression is real. We have read and keep reading in the news reports of children who murder their parents. Those are mental health issues. We are reading of students in universities committing suicide. Those are mental health issues. We are reading of professionals, highly accomplished, but under serious depression. The need for us to ensure that accessibility to treatment is enhanced is a matter that this House must take seriously.

 

Mr Speaker, with those remarks, we wish to support this particular report and place on record that there is a need for all of us to treat this matter with a deserved sense of urgency because none of us is immune to this situation.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Kabwata, an opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion that is on the Floor of the House.

 Mr Speaker, the provision of mental health services in Zambia was actually neglected for many years. Even the period that the audit report speaks to, between 2018 and 2021, if we go beyond, we will discover there was actually very little that was happening. This report highlights a number of issues that affect the subject that we are talking about.

 Mr Speaker, the report talked about the funding aspect. Imagine that only 2 per cent is what is being allocated or was allocated between 2018 and 2021. We had concentrated much on funding fights against other diseases such as the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) and even cervical cancer, yet some of the people that are dying in hospitals with cancer are not dying because of cancer. They are dying because they are either depressed or have mental issues.

 Mr Speaker, I think the issue of funding has to be looked at so that we can change the narrative.

 Mr Speaker, I will speak about infrastructure because most of it that has been talked about. I will start with the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital. This institution was actually established way back in the 1930s by the Catholic Brothers. Those were the people who established the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, the institution that deals with mental health. From that time, it had never seen any facelift until 1962, and that was in colonial times.

 Mr Speaker, it is not only the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, but also other mental health infrastructure. For example, in Chadiza, Senanga and Mansa, this is infrastructure that you, Mr Speaker, would not want to send any of your children if they were facing mental issues. The reason is simple. Some of the infrastructure that is there, we would discover do not even have water-borne toilets or electricity, but we expect to send somebody whom we want to reform to go and stay in there. This cannot work. We need to look at the best infrastructure. That infrastructure that we have at the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, we need to start modernising it.

 Mr Speaker, on the issue of security, I will give a scenario of what happened between 2017 and 2021. This issue is so worrying. We had a case where a female nurse was killed by some mental patients. So, the issue of security needs to be enhanced so that the workers in those facilities are given enough security.

 Mr Speaker, I want to talk about capacity building amongst the people who are dealing with mental health. We have spent most of our time and resources on training people on the issues of COVID-19, HIV/AIDS and cancer, yet we have neglected this other sector of mental health. We have failed to build capacity in these doctors that we have around.

 Mr Speaker, between 2017 and 2021, if I am not mistaken, we had about fifteen doctors. Out of those, we only have five that are working in some of these provincial offices. Where have the others gone? We are failing to provide the best services for our workers. They have gone to seek greener pastures and we have created a vacuum in some of these provincial health centres that these psychiatric doctors are supposed to man.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the lack of transport, there is no way that we can talk about improving the mental health units when we are failing even to provide transportation. If one went to the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, one would find a vehicle that was bought way back in the 1980s. That is the same Landcruiser being used at the hospital. Let us be serious with what we are doing. If we want to improve the mental health units, I think there is a need for the Government to start funding them adequately. Let us buy vehicles for this institution.

 Mr Speaker, I will talk about staffing levels. I think the staffing levels are worrying. If one went into most of these first level hospitals where some units for mental patients have been created, one would discover that even the workers that are working there are having challenges. This is the reason these workers even fail to make follow-ups on referral cases. It is because there are no adequate spaces for people that are living with mental disabilities or issues. I think there is a need for the Government to come in and establish mental health wards in what we call first level hospitals.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to talk about the need for the hon. Minister of Health to also establish what is called the National Mental Health Council. If one read the Mental Health Act, one would find that it was enacted in 2019. However, since 2019, we have failed to establish the National Mental Health Council. Had we established this council, we would have achieved its functions, such as promoting and protecting the rights of mental patients. At the moment, we are failing to do that. Those people do not even have their rights. If one went around, one would discover that even in the society where they live, they are demonised. Others are said to have been bewitched. That is the reason we are failing to improve in this sector.

 Mr Speaker, allow me to talk about the lack of drugs. I think there is also a need for the Government to ensure that the supply of drugs to this sector is improved. Our colleagues in Australia have even gone further to use drugs that are called psychedelic drugs. These drugs are now legalised in Australia, yet here in Zambia, we are failing to use psychedelic drugs. These drugs are also called mushrooms, bowa or fungus. You can treat somebody using those kinds of drugs.

 Mr Speaker, as the people of Kabwata support this Motion, we say that there is also a need for a National Mental Health Policy to be established or put in place because as it is right now, we do not have one.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion.

 Mr Speaker, mental healthcare has really been a neglected part of the health system, as evidenced by the budget allocation. I am sure, if you have read through the report, you would have seen that the budget allocated for the period 2018 to 2021 was only 2 per cent, which was just about K800,000. In 2023, the same budget was reduced to only K396,000. That is almost about 50 per cent of what was previously given.

 Mr Speaker, if you look at the concerns raised by your Committee in the report, there is a lack of medication, and infrastructure needs to be rehabilitated. We actually have very few infrastructures. This means that the budget needs to be meaningful.

 Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that the staff levels as well are very low, simply because the budget cannot contain them. We have heard that we hardly have any psychologists in most general hospitals, and neither do we have any in rural areas, which are highly hit.

 Mr Speaker, if you look at the staff/population ratios for mental health services, the report says that in 2017, we only had 2.94 workers per 100,000 population. However, if you look at some developing countries, the ratio is about nine workers per 100,000 population. So, you can see that the staffing level that we have is very low as compared to what others have.

 Mr Speaker, we have heard about infrastructure, which is very poor. We know that the Ministry of Health pays more attention to malaria, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and cholera. That is where it takes most of its funds, neglecting this very important part of health.

 Mr Speaker, if we look at the barriers to mental health, the lack of awareness is one of them. Awareness is something that will make the whole country understand what mental health is. If we look at the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, most of us believe that it was meant for – let me use a word which is commonly used, although it is offensive. It is where we take mad people. This is simply because it is considered to be a hospital for mad people. However, we forget that there are other conditions that somebody can suffer from to go there. For instance, there is clinical depression, anxiety and bipolar disorder or paranoia.

 Mr Speaker, imagine what would happen if a well-known politician had a condition such as clinical depression and went to the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital and then the paparazzi saw him, took a picture and published it. People on Facebook and other social media platforms would start judging that person. What sort of stigma would this person face? This is the reason that awareness needs to be a priority.

 

Mr Speaker, if we look at the limited access, yes, we have very few clinics around the country that one with a mental illness can go to. So, the stigma attached to mental illness is what is stopping people from actually coming forward. Even family members find it very difficult to take their children to a mental institution when they are suffering from stress. They believe the neighbours will start thinking the person is mad. That is why we are emphasising that awareness should be a priority.

 Mr Speaker, if one looks at our rural health set up, the belief is that there are supernatural causes of mental illness. That is what is obtaining in our rural areas. Hon. Members will agree with me that the traditional belief system attributes mental health to either ancestral spirits or witchcraft. As a result, those people will never go to a hospital. What do they do in the end? They take their patients to traditional healers. The traditional healers do whatever they do, but never heal these people. They will never be treated. So, what happens is that the situation gets worse. At the end of the day, you find a patient leashed to a tree. It does not matter what sort of weather prevails. This is what we have in our rural areas.

 Mr Speaker, I, therefore, agree with most of our hon. Members of Parliament who were complaining about the lack of medical facilities in rural areas. It is true that we need those medical facilities in rural areas because we do not want to be losing young or even old people just because they are suffering from anxiety or anything else for which they could be treated.

 

Mr Speaker, this is why we believe that the budget and staffing levels for mental health services should be looked at. The major intervention to be put in place is education, especially education for our people in the rural areas. This is because with education, we will be able to understand what mental health is. That it is not just about mental illness, but it has other conditions as well that people on a daily basis go through and, obviously, need that help.

 Mr Speaker, we also heard that we have very few psychiatrists in major hospitals. I believe if the ministry looked at that issue, it would really help us because instead of everybody going to the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital they could be going to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), for instance, for some of these other conditions like stress or anything else.

 Mr Speaker, if you look at drug allocation, it is very unfortunate that only 20 per cent of the monthly drug requirement for these special people that really need to be saved was provided. If they are not saved, the condition becomes irreversible. Twenty per cent monthly drug allocation is very little.

 Mr Speaker, on suicide cases, the mover of the Motion gave us the statics where, in 2021, there were 17.5 per 100 males, which was a lot. If we look at these suicide cases, what is the reason for them? It is all because of mental health. We are not taking care of mental health. We have actually put it as a by the way kind of condition.

 

Mr Speaker, there are some gruesome murderers in most of our prisons. Most of those people need this kind of facility to help them. If we could have that, and awareness is there, we could cut down some of these problems.

 Mr Speaker, when we come to rehab centres, we have very few of them, but these are the things we need. If we look at an area like Chimwemwe, we are battling it out now with the youth; those that are found either smoking weed or taking some of those narcotic drugs that are prohibited. What we are lacking is where to take them. We can counsel them, but at what level? We need somebody with experience and who has been to school to counsel and put them together in a facility that will save their lives.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, allow me, once again, to thank you, most sincerely, for the opportunity to make a few comments on this very important report. May I thank the Chairperson of your Committee and the mover of the Motion for allowing Parliament to discuss this matter which, for many years, has not been able to receive the right national attention in as far as Parliament is concerned.

 

Mr Speaker, we have discussed issues of infrastructure, how to build hospitals, to do with bridges, roads and unemployment. However, we have not given this matter the right attention it deserves. I feel that one of the reasons we have not been able to do that, as a nation, is, obviously, the perception that is there as regards how people view issues to do with mental health.

 Mr Speaker, I know my colleagues have handled some of the findings of the report. I will try and pick out one issue which I feel your Committee should have delved into in detail. This particular issue is to do with how people perceive those who have challenges with mental health.

 Mr Speaker, mental health, basically, deals with someone’s psychological and emotional well- being. These are things that, for many years, we have not understood, as a people. For many years, we have been meant to believe, as the hon. Member of Parliament for Chimwemwe put it, that those who face issues of mental health have a very big problem which cannot be attended to.

 So, Mr Speaker, what I am trying to put across? I am happy that the hon. Minister of Health is with us today. The first issue that I feel needs to be handled, that will even allow not only this current Government, but also, of course, future generations and those that will be leadership to look at this matter differently, is, first of all, to go into society.

 

Mr Speaker, if, today, we were to go into Mulenga Compound, how many people would be aware that mental health is an issue that could be handled by appropriate health workers? If, today, we decided to take a drive to Ngabwe District where one of our hon. Members of Parliament comes from, we would find that people there, probably, have never even heard the word “mental health.” For many years, we have been made to believe that mental health is this big challenge that has nothing to do with possible cures being identified.

 Mr Speaker, for me, the starting point, as we discuss how much money we should give the Ministry of Health to deal with mental health, is where we are sited today and the public that is viewing this conversation. How many people are actually aware that the challenges of mental actually health exist? So, the starting point, and I want to appeal to the Minister of health, is: Are we able to design a programme and interventions that would allow us to go into the communities and start from the scratch, go to primary schools, discuss with the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Education where we simplify this simple issue and try to make people understand that if we are discussing mental health challenges, we are discussing something that can possibility be cured?

 Mr Speaker, if we do not simplify this challenge, these old traditional perceptions will continue. For many years to come, people will still think mental health is not a priority. I want to agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata. He listed a catalogue of things that were picked in the report. However, one thing that has to be dealt with, as we draw near allocating more money and tell ourselves to employ more people that will deal with issues of psychology, is: Have we made people aware? Apart from the 20 per cent that hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya referred to, how many others have never bothered to report their cases to the hospitals? How many are willing, today, to start off from their house and decide to go to the hospital in Mufulira? How many are willing to go to the Ronald Rose General Hospital, today, to go and say, “I have a mental health problem”? Very few people will have the courage to acknowledge that they have a problem that needs to be cured.

 Mr Speaker, most of us here grew up thinking that mental health did not exist. I used to think that if someone was stressed, it simply meant that they had a problem that they could not deal with. However, stress is something that is real. For many years, this will continue to be the case if we do not design a programme that can take us into Shiwang’andu to call a community meeting not to discuss issues to do with a bridge or a road, but to try and focus on the issue of mental health, raise awareness, involve teachers and speak to the problem.

 Mr Speaker, if we design that intervention, the next stage is what was picked out in the report. As for the resources and other activities, those will fall into place.

 Mr Speaker, my submission today is only one: Can we try and make people understand what mental health is. If we do not do it and rush to other interventions where we assume that the solution is to employ thirty, fifty or 100 psychologists, who are they going to attend to? They must attend to people who are willing to come forward and say, “I have come to the Kitwe Central Hospital because I have a mental health challenge and I need help.”

 

Mr Speaker, if people do not acknowledge that they need help, we are not going to make the required progress.

 So, Mr Speaker, the people of Kamfinsa are submitting that we need to design a programme that makes people understand what mental health is. Then the other interventions that the report of the Chairperson and your Committee has been able to pick out are going to provide the required solutions.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to comment on this matter.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mwandi will be the last one before the hon. Minister responds and then themover of the Motion will wind up. We have to make progress.

 Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for allowing the people of Mwandi, through me, to contribute to this report that is currently being discussed on the Floor of the House.

 Mr Speaker, let me begin by saying I support the report fully. However, there is also something that I want to bring to the attention of the House. This is in regard to why we find that many mental health issues are not reported to hospital. It is the stigma that is associated with it. There is a lot of stigma that is associated with mental health issues. This I can only equate to what happened in the early 90s.

 Mr Speaker, there was a lot of stigma that was associated with the Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (HIV/Aids). When you look at what is happening on mental health issues, I think I can equate it to that level. As a country, we need to work hard to make sure that that stigma is taken away from society. Not only is this stigma associated with the patients, I must mention, but also with health workers that study to help mental health patients. We realise that if one of our children said, “I want to be psychiatrist,” we will find that most people would say “Oh ni doctor wabo funta” and things like that. So, there is even a lot of stigma that is associated with people who actually study to help people who have mental issues.

 Secondly, Mr Speaker, I want to make mention also, in regard to this report, that one of the things that I have observed is the missing link in the reintegration of people who have mental health issues. One of the things we think is that mental health is not curable. When one gets sick and goes to the hospital and is taken care of, society will still stigmatises one when he/she comes back into society. People keep on saying that this person had mental health issues despite getting well. Not only is the person who was sick stigmatised, but also his/her family. We will find, for example, that men find it very difficult to go and marry into a family where there are issues of mental health. People start to say that they cannot marry from a particular family because there are mental health issues. So, there is a lot of stigmatisation associated even with families that have such children. As a result, parents prefer to keep their children hidden. It is because of the stigma that is associated to the sickness.

 Mr Speaker, thirdly, I want to mention also, coming from Mwandi, in regard to access to the health facilities, that the nearest is Livingstone, where we can refer such patients. It is a seven-hour drive from Mwandi to access these facilities. So, I want to support the report and say these facilities should be taken as closer as possible to the people because mental health is a real challenge and we cannot overemphasise the need to have these medical services taken closer to the people.

 Mr Speaker, fourthly, I also want to say I have seen so much in regard to HIV/AIDS. There is a lot of tracking that is done. One will find that when a patient has not taken his/her medicine for some time, there is a follow-up that is done by medical staff to say that this person has not picked up their medicine in such and such a time. When one looks at mental health issues and the drugs that are given, I think it is important that we design a tracking tool so that there is continuous follow-up in regard to these people who are let into society after they have been dealt with. So, we need to make sure that there is that link of tracking these people so that we can continuously monitor them.

 

Mr Speaker, the other thing is the availability of skilled health workers. As I mentioned earlier, there is also a lot of stigma associated with people that actually study to make sure that they can help in this sector. So, we need to make sure that we work on sensitisation; sensitising our communities to make sure they understand that these health issues are very curable and that people are able to get cured when they go to the hospital and should be able to get reintegrated into society. People should stop that habit of referring back to the time when a person had issues even after he/she gets healed.

 Sir, I also want to quickly touch on the issue of the handling of mental health patients. Usually, the handling is done very badly. They are usually chained for them to just be moved from one facility to another. The areas where mental health patients are kept are not kept well. There is a lot of dehumanisation when it comes to dealing with these people. So, we also need to help to make sure that our workers understand that we do not need to take away that human rights aspect when we are dealing with such issues.

 Mr Speaker, that said, I support the report on the Floor of the House.

 I thank you, Sir

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We do not have much time. So, I call upon the hon. Minister of Health to respond.

 The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to comment on this very important report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services.

 Mr Speaker, firstly, I want to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion. I also want to say that this Motion is progressive. I would like to begin by commending the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services for the comprehensive report on the Performance Audit Report on the Auditor-General on the Provisions of Mental Health Services in Zambia for the Period 2018 – 2021.

 Mr Speaker, I would also like to assure your Committee and the House that the progressive recommendations that have been made by your Committee are, in fact, already, in some instances, being considered actively by the Government, through the Ministry of Health.

 Mr Speaker, the Government will prioritise the provision of mental health services by ensuring the availability of resources to meet the needs of mental health services users and patients and bring about improvements in the provision of mental health services in Zambia.

 Mr Speaker, in commending your Committee, I would also like to use this opportunity to thank those who have spoken on this Motion. We had five very eloquent speakers who ably articulated this very important Motion. I want to thank the hon. Member for Kabwata, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, the hon. For Member Chimwemwe, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and, lastly, the hon. Member for Mwandi. How I wish this was the level of debate this Parliament would have all the time on all the Motions. This is very good. Thank you very much colleagues and hon. Members.

 Mr Speaker, I want to say that I have taken note of the recommendations pertaining to the need for the Government to ensure that psychiatrists are registered by the Health Professionals Council of Zambia (HPCZ). The House may wish to note that the Government, through my ministry, has already been following the tradition to have all health professionals registered and licensed by regulatory bodies, psychiatrists inclusive.

 

Mr Speaker, my ministry takes cognisant of the important role psychiatrists play in the multi-disciplinary healthcare system, not only to mental health clients, but also to our general healthcare. In this regard, the Ministry of Health wishes to have psychiatrists in most healthcare facilities and they are encouraged to get registered and licensed by the HPCZ.

 Mr Speaker, the second issue which was raised in your Committee’s recommendations was the need for the Government to leverage on the other players in the mental health sector by regulating. The Government, through the Ministry of Health, highly recognises the important role the private sector plays in the provision of health services as it supplements Government efforts. However, the Ministry of Health also notes with concern the exploitation of the affected citizens by being offered substandard and expensive service, provided, usually, by unqualified staff. My ministry is, therefore, committed to ensuring that the citizenry is provided with quality, effective and affordable mental health services in approved health facilities and provided by qualified staff.

 Mr Speaker, in this regard, I wish to encourage all private health facilities to get the necessary approvals from the relevant regulatory bodies and also to apply the established standards of practice in the provision of mental health services.

 Mr Speaker, the third issue raised was on policy, standards and guidelines in which your Committee was informed that treatment guidelines for mental disorders were launched on 10^th October, 2022, during the commemoration of the World Mental Health Day. Your Committee recommended that the guidelines be distributed to various districts.

 Mr Speaker, my ministry is working on modalities to have these guidelines, which we launched last year, printed in masses to reach every level of healthcare in the country. In addition, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, is also working on reviewing and updating the Mental Health Policy of 2005 to take into account new developments and best practices in the provision of mental health services. This process is expected to be completed this year.

 Mr Speaker, the other observations and recommendations highlighted in the report was on the resource allocation to mental health services. I want to inform hon. Members that, in fact, the New Dawn Government attaches great importance to this sub-sector of health and, immediately, we did what we could within our limitations. In fact, we increased the allocation to almost double what was being allocated by the previous administration just to underscore the importance of mental health services. Even as we doubled that amount, we were cognizant of the fact that money was still not sufficient. It is, therefore, our intention that for next year, we will increase the allocation further.

 

For the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital, the Government continues to prioritise it to effectively provide tertiary services. To decongest it, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, embarked on the activation of the mental health units in most health facilities across the country to reduce the distance for referral to the hospital.

 Mr Speaker, my Ministry takes cognizant of the challenge of mental health services infrastructure. To address this challenge, the Government prioritised the completion of the Ndola Psychiatric Unit that had stalled for a long time due to the lack of funds to pay the contractor. I am happy and proud to inform the House that we have since paid the contractor and we will be completing the unit by December this year, as the contractor now will move on site following the renegotiation of the contractual terms.

 To also include psychiatric units are the twenty first level hospitals under construction which will have, at least, a six bed capacity for psychiatric patients.

 

Mr Speaker, further, the Ministry of Health will consider allocating resources in the 2024 Budget to rehabilitate other psychiatric units in Mongu, Choma, and Kasama and to build a new psychiatric facility in Solwezi as well as give a facelift to the Chainama Hills Mental Hospital.

 

Mr Speaker, on the availability of mental health drugs, the House may wish to be reminded that the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) is procuring mental health drugs, and the availability of mental health drugs is mixed in most of the health facilities. However, we acknowledge the challenges in the procurement processes of psychotropic drugs which have kept the availability of mental health drugs far below the level where they need to be.

 Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health is working to ensure that we procure mental health drugs through various Government interventions. Once these mental health drugs are in, we will stabilise the supply chain.

 Mr Speaker, the Committee may wish to note that rehabilitation services for users still remain a challenge as the three known rehabilitation centres are in a deplorable state. These are Nsadzu in Chadiza, Kawimbe in Mbala and Litambya in Senanga. Of the three, only Nsadzu is functional with about eleven patients residing at the centre. However, there are plans to rehabilitate the named rehabilitation centres and local authorities have since been engaged to secure the title deeds of the premises and lobby for resources and support from the Government, working with other cooperating partners.

 Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health provides the health services following the established referral system. Hence, every patient, regardless of the condition, should be expected to be provided with the necessary health services and referred accordingly.

 

Mr Speaker, mentorship, supervisory and technical support visits are being conducted to orient and stimulate all key players in the mental health service provision. The strengthening of the referral system has also been boosted by the recruitment of 334 mental health staff in the 2022 recruitment process.

 Hon. PF Members: Time up.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Minister, hurry up and wind up.

 Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I am on the last part.

 So, I was saying that 334 mental health staffs were recruited last year, all in an effort to add more work forces in this important sub-sector.

 Mr Speaker, finally, I take recommendations made by your Committee as timely, as we have noted mental health, with few partners coming on board to support its programming. As hon. Members may be aware, mental health is a cross cutting issue affecting everyone and every sector. Therefore, there is a need for collaboration.

 So, that is exactly what we are doing and, with the issue of decentralisation, we are hopeful that we will be able to capture more. The issue of the lack of awareness is big and we have taken it on board. We are working out various activities to make sure that we alert the people and hope that hon. Members of Parliament can also be part of that drive.

 Mr Speaker, lastly, I commend, once again, your Committee for the observations and recommendations made and just assure them that my ministry will take them on board with the seriousness that they deserve.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Mr Speaker, thank you. In winding up debate, I would like to thank the seconder of the Motion for ably seconding the Motion. I would also like to thank the Members who debated in support of the Motion. These are the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, the hon. Member for Kabwata, the hon. Member for Chimwemwe, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and the hon. Member for Mwandi.

 Mr Speaker, I would like ...

 Interruptions

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Members, you are disturbing the mover of the Motion.

 Ms Nakaponda: Mr Speaker, I would like the Ministry of Health to take note of the recommendations and work on them for the common good our people of our nation.

 Lastly, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Health for commending your Committee.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Question put and agreed to.

  REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS

 Ms. S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the this House do adopt the Report of Your Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Control and Regulation of Illegal Immigrants in Zambia, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 23^rd June, 2023.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 Mr Mulaliki (Senenga): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 Ms. S. Mwamba: Mr Speaker, pursuant to its terms of reference, as set out under Standing Order No. 197 (k), your Committee considered the Report of the Auditor-General on the Control and Regulation of Illegal Migrants in Zambia.

 Mr Speaker, seconding the audit report, your Committee invited various stakeholders to present both oral and written submissions. I would like to believe that the hon. Members have had the opportunity to read the report. I will, therefore, only highlight a few of the salient issues contained in the report.

Mr Speaker, regarding the development of the Migration Policy, your Committee was informed that it was launched on 2^nd December, 2022. However, the policy has not been operationalised as it awaits the realignment of the principal Act, the Immigration and Deportation Act, No. 18 of 2010, in order to support its operationalisation.

In this regard, Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Government should, as a matter of urgency, consider amending the Immigration and Deportation Act, No 18 of 2010 so that it could be in tune with the policy and, thereby, support its implementation.

 Mr Speaker, regarding security at ports of entry and borderlines, your Committee was informed that Zambia is recording an overwhelming number of prohibited immigrants from neighbouring countries and beyond. The categories of migrants that are in the country include labour migrants, asylum seekers, undocumented or irregular migrants and victims of human trafficking.

 Your Committee was also informed that much of Zambia’s borderline is unmanned due to a lack of human resource, thereby, posing a security risk.

 In this regard, Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends the following:

 (a)         the Government should employ more immigration officers to address the problem of illegal immigrants;

(b)          the Government should expedite the amendment of the Immigration and Deportation Act, No 18 of 2010, so that it can provide for the introduction of border guards who will institute intensive patrols along border lines; and

 (c) the Government should provide adequate financial and material resources, including adequate transport, to support the operations of the Department of Immigration.

 Mr Speaker, on the revelations in the Auditor-General’s report regarding the prevalence of corruption and bribery in the immigration system, your Committee was informed that some officials were receiving bribes in exchange for allowing undocumented individuals to enter or remain in the country.

 In this regard, Mr Speaker, your Committee, strongly, recommends that the Government should take a zero-tolerance approach to corruption and bribery in the immigration system. This can be done by stiffening penalties for officials who will be found to be engaging in such activities.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was informed that Zambia lacks adequate infrastructure at some designated ports of entry. Meanwhile, some neighbouring countries have the necessary infrastructure, which include office space and housing units for immigration officers.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was also informed that the Department of Immigration and other law enforcement agencies operating at the borders have been working in dilapidated buildings, which were vacated by other Government institutions.

In this regard, Mr Speaker, your Committee urges the Government to put in place the necessary infrastructure at designated border posts in order to enhance effectiveness in the operations of the Department of Immigration.

Mr Speaker, lastly, your Committee is grateful to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to it during the consideration of the Report of the Auditor- General on the Control and Regulation of Illegal Migrants in Zambia.

Your Committee is also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary memoranda that informed its recommendations in the report.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I urge all hon. Members to support the report of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mulaliki: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mubika: PDF!

Mr Mulaliki: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second that this House do adopt the report of your Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Control and Regulation of Illegal Migrants in Zambia, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, let me first thank the mover, the hon. Member for Kasama Central, for ably moving this Motion. I also thank members of this Committee for having participated fully and ensured that we came up with all these recommendations.

Mr Speaker, I will highlight only four recommendations. The first one is security at points of entry. We noted, with concern, that, of late, there has been a number of immigrants in the country, some of whom even ended up dead and dumped. All that could have been avoided had the screening at the point of entry been okay.

Mr Speaker, for the Department of Immigration to be effective at points of entry and ensure that only those that are supposed to be in the country can enter, it needs financing. It is, therefore, important that the Government considers improving funding to the department. Further, it is important that the Government also considers employing border guards at points of entry who can provide surveillance over the borders.

Secondly, Mr Speaker, is the processing appeals for rejected permits. The suggestion is that the Immigration and Deportation Act, No.18 of 2010 should be amended in order to provide for delegated powers, where the Permanent Secretary or the Director of the Immigration Department should be able to deal with appeals in the absence of the hon. Minister. This is so because there was noted a backlog of cases for appeals. Alternatively, there should be put in place a mechanism where an immigration tribunal is instituted to which an applicant may appeal after the initial application is rejected. The current situation is that if somebody applies for a permit into Zambia and the Department of Immigration rejects it, that applicant appeals to the same department. The recommendation is that if an application is initially rejected by the Department of Immigration, the appellant should be able to appeal to a tribunal which should be set instead of them appealing to the same body that rejected the earlier application.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, is the availability of the skills set in aiding the issuance of employment permits. The practice, currently, is that the people who want to come and work or stay in Zambia apply without a set criteria of what skills are lacking in our country.

Mr Speaker, the recommendation is that the Department of Immigration works hand-in-hand or in collaboration with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. The ministry can advise on the skills which are lacking in our country so that those who apply are vetted against that and it is only those that possess the skills that we do not have in the country that can be accommodated.

Mr Speaker, it is the view of your Committee that the Government implements the Zambia Information Management System. It should establish a centralised data base to store information on illegal migrants, including their countries of origin, mode of entry and length of stay. This will enhance the monitoring and tracking of cases. The Government should expedite the issuance of digital National Registration Cards (NRCs), passports, birth certificates and the introduction of a biometric system.

Mr Speaker, I second the Motion and thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon Member: Quality!

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to contribute to the debate on this very important Motion.

 Sir, our country remains at risk of epidemics because of the borders that we share with various countries. As we speak about our policies on immigration, we need to broaden our conversation to talk about disease surveillance at the borders. We need to talk about increasing the infrastructure to improve and ease the movement of our people to contribute to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and, further, Mr Speaker, ensure that our country is kept free of the risk of epidemics. Those will be my areas of debate.

Mr Speaker, as I support this Motion, I emphasise that the Committee picked a very important aspect; to ensure that at the borders, we have improved infrastructure so that there is ease of movement of our people and an improved screening of immigrants who are coming into the country.

My argument, Mr Speaker, is this: Diseases are moved by human beings. Our Border Policy should be broadened to include Border Health Policy. As people come into the country, they need to go through routine or basic screening mechanisms. I call upon the Government to improve the Border Health Policy as part of the broader Immigration Policy to ensure that we keep the country safe from diseases that can cause epidemics.

Mr Speaker, we are just recovering from the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19), but there are still neighbouring countries that are grappling with Ebola and Cholera. So, if we strengthen our Border Health Policy, we will ensure that our population is safeguarded from the epidemic-prone conditions that I have alluded to.

Moving from that, Mr Speaker, I emphasise that shielding the country from these epidemics means shielding our Economic Reconstruction Policy. If our country is hit by epidemics, we will divert resources to managing those epidemics and, thereby, re-gress the gains that we have posted in economic growth.

 

Mr Speaker, our borders should also embrace the One Border Policy where it must be easy for citizens of other countries to come in and our citizens to go out of the country in order for us to ensure that there is ease of movement as part of improving the business environment. That way, we will contribute to the growth of our economies.

Mr Speaker, I limit my comments to that and support your Committee’s report. I urge it to broaden the conversation to include the Border Health Policy to shield the country from epidemics such as Ebola, COVID-19 and Cholera.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to make a few comments in support of your Committee’s report. The Motion has been ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Senanga.

Mr Speaker, migration is becoming a complex matter. There is a nexus between migration and some international crimes such as human trafficking. Indeed, the reasons for people migrating, as elaborated by the mover of the Motion, are categorised as already stated.

Mr Speaker, your Committee has made very interesting recommendations to be implemented by the Government, one of which is the amendment of the Immigration and Deportation Act No. 18 of 2010. Your Committee wants to see it incorporate the Migration Policy which was launched in 2022. Beyond that, the amendment should also include the issue the seconder of the Motion referred to, the aspect of border guards who, in this case, are to help enhance the patrolling of the borders which are vast. For example, Zambia shares the largest and the longest border line with the Republic of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). So, while this is a welcome idea, as pronounced by the President, it is not provided for in the law. As it stands now, the responsibility of manning the territorial boundaries of this nation is with the defence forces. Therefore, for the Department of Immigration to start recruiting border guards, it must be provided for by the law. So, I agree that the amendment to the Act should be done expeditiously.

Mr Speaker, this country is mostly used as a transit route for human trafficking cases. The case that the seconder of the Motion referred to where we witnessed a large number of bodies of foreign nationals that was dumped on the grounds of this nation in the constituency of Chongwe should be worrisome. That is not the only case. There are cases where people even risk being put in empty containers which are decanted of fuel lubricants and get to suffocate there. These fellows who are involved in human trafficking activities do not really care. All they care about is the money that they make out of them. So, we should not be a country which is seen to allow such transnational criminal activities to occur on our soil. There is a need, as recommended by your Committee, to enhance sensitisation in our border areas to ensure that the people of Zambia start acting as patriotic citizens because most of those crimes are abetted by our own people. There are villages that are well known where those people go to hide before they are trafficked across Zambia, like Shangombo, which is near some border with another country.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, indeed, we need to take drastic measures. I also appreciate the recommendation, obviously, that we need to establish centres where we need to keep these illegal migrants because most of the time, the only facilities we have are correctional facilities. So, these victims of human trafficking cannot be kept anywhere other than those facilities which are available and which, in some cases, are considered to be inhuman.

Mr Speaker, I want to make it very clear to the hon. Member, the seconder of the Motion, who was talking about the permit appeals that are sent to the hon. Minister that it should be noted that the spirit was to ensure that the board that rejects these applications should not be the board to hear the appeal cases, and the hon. Minister does not sit alone. There is a mechanism –

 Mr Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at1910 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 6^thJuly, 2023.

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