Friday, 30^th June, 2023

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I inform the House that the House Business Committee met on Thursday, 29^th June, 2023, to determine and schedule Business of the House for the period 5^th to 7^th July, 2023. In this regard, your Committee resolved to lay before the House the following business for consideration:

1. Announcements

The Hon. Speaker may make an announcement to the House on any day when it is necessary to do so.

1. Rulings

The Hon. Speaker may render rulings, if there will be any.

1. Ministerial Statements

Hon. Ministers may render ministerial statements, if there will be any.

1. Bills

The Bills listed hereunder will be considered:

1. The Environmental Management (Amendment) Bill, 2023. This will be at the Second Reading stage and the date for consideration will be 6^th July, 2023; and
2. The Zambia Institute of Valuation Surveyors Bill, 2023. This will also be considered for Second Reading on 6^th July, 2023;

1. Reports on International Conferences

Reports on international conferences may be considered, if there will be any.

1. Parliamentary Committee Reports

The House will consider the following Committee reports during the period:   

1. Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services on the Performance Audit Report on the Provision of Mental Health Services in Zambia. This will be considered on 5^th July, 2023;
2. Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the Performance Audit Report on the Administration of Student Loans in Zambia. This will be considered on 6^th July, 2023; and
3. Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs on the Performance Audit Report on Urban and Regional Planning in Zambia. This will be considered on 7^th July, 2023;

1. Questions

Hon. Ministers will respond to fifteen Questions for Oral Answer from the Notice of Questions of 20^th October, 2022, as set out hereunder. The Notice of Questions was circulated to all hon. Members earlier.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House Business Committee and in accordance with Standing Order No. 189 (5) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, I have the pleasure to present the business for next week to this august House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker: From what I see on my screen, are all these matters of urgent public importance or we are jumping the gun?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we start afresh. I saw two when we started. Can we quickly go through those.

MR MTAYACHALO, HON. MEMBER FOR CHAMA NORTH CONSTITUENCY, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, MR MUTATI, ON FORMER ZAMPOST EMPLOYEES

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I wish to raise is directed at the hon. Minister of Science and Technology.

Mr Mtayachalo resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, 860 former Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZamPost) workers are currently going through many financial difficulties following their retirement and retrenchment from employment.

Madam Speaker, although these workers are –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, clearly, that matter which you want to raise does not qualify. Can we go back to the criterion again, please. We do not want to be reminding hon. Members all the time.

Madam Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Kapyanga.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, these hon. Colleagues of mine, even when they have seen that I have withdrawn, they still want to waste our time.

Madam Speaker, we can proceed.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, before we go to the next segment, can we clear the list because we have not gotten there yet. As we clear the list, I just want to give guidance that when hon. Members are asking questions, please do not debate. Be precise, so that we have as many hon. Members as possible being given an opportunity to ask a question. If you debate, we will take too much time. Further, there should be no repetitions.

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THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Madam Speaker: Since there are no questions, we move on.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: My screen was empty, but now there are indications and I see names of hon. Members from both sides of the House. So, I will be picking on different hon. Members in order to balance the questions from both sides of the House.

Mr A. I. Banda (Vubwi): Madam Speaker, on several occasions, I have come on the Floor of this House to try and find out the progress pertaining to the rehabilitation of the Chipata/Vubwi Road. This road is in a deplorable state and we are finding many challenges to access various areas though it, especially that we have a hospital in Chipata. So, we really have a big problem. I remember last time, it was indicated that some work would commence, but to no avail.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon Member!

Just ask the question. Do not debate. We are losing time.

Mr A. I. Banda: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Vubwi for that question on the status of the Chipata/Vubwi Road and what is being done. As the hon. Member has said, I think this question has been asked on several occasions and the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development has been giving the answer.

Madam Speaker, yes, the Government is aware of the status of the Chipata/Vubwi Road and being in my place, I should say that the infrastructure that was boasted about is not there countrywide. Therefore, it is important that that road is looked at. What I have gathered or know, and the hon. Member of Parliament may say this is not true, is that there is work to just make the road at least motorable. However, the real work is dependent on resource availability.

Madam Speaker, we are praying that as we are making strides to look for finances through debt restructuring, that road will surely be attended to. The Government is aware of the terrible status of that road. Similarly, the Government is aware of the terrible status of the roads going to Kaputa, Chienge, Milenge as well as the Lukulu/Katunda Road. Therefore, the Government will do everything possible to raise the resources to ensure that the people of Vubwi can travel, not just to the hospital, but for all other economic and social activities that people are supposed to have.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President, our mother, a question through me and I would like to say good morning to her.

Madam Speaker, under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in Petauke, we allocated money for works on the gravel roads across the constituency. We also allocated money for the construction of staff houses at Mumbi Health Post and a contractor was given the work. However, the District Commissioner (DC) in charge of the Executive in the district stopped the grading of the roads and said that the Zambia National Service (ZNS) would do it. This involves the Government entities because the CDF is a Government programme just as the ZNS is a Government entity. The DC also stopped the construction work at Mumbi Health Post because the contractor is not a United Party for National Development (UPND) cadre.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, what is the Government going to do with this DC who wants to politicise the CDF when the President, here in this House, said it should be given to everyone, whether the area hon. Member is an Independent, from the Opposition or the Ruling Party? This fund is given to everyone at the same time, but the DC wants to politicise it.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I seek Her Honour the Vice-President’s guidance.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to say good morning to the hon. Member and I greet all the people of Petauke Central. I also thank the hon. Member for his greetings.

Mr Mubika: Including Dora!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: She is fine.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for his question. From the narration that has been given, many works have been identified under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the works ought to be going on. However, he alleges that the District Commissioner (DC) in Petauke has stopped these works. What I did not pick properly is whether she wants these works given to the Zambia National Service (ZNS).

Madam Speaker, that being the case, I believe the DC is not alone because there must be a committee and if this committee wants the work given to the ZNS, that is alright. That is the way to go. As the hon. Member has said, the ZNS is also a Government entity that should come in. We should use this institution as much as possible, as long as it has the capacity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: However, there is another element to the hon. Member’s question. He said that the DC stopped some work because it was given to a person who is not a United Party for National Development (UPND) cadre. I think that claim would need evidence because this is a Government for all Zambians. There is no policy written anywhere that works should only be given to UPND cadres.

Madam Speaker, works should be given to people with capacity to work with the three principles that have been said. First of all, those people must not inflate the cost. So, cost effectiveness is very important. Secondly, any contract should be given to people who will do a good job. This is about quality. The third principle is that it should be people who should deliver timely. That is all. This is the guidance. There is no guidance of political party affiliation. It is only on capacity and following those principles.

 

Madam Speaker, therefore, with that allegation, unless that DC wrote somewhere or they talked with the hon. Member, I think that is not the way this Government is proceeding.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate Her Honour the Vice-President for the 7,000 health kits which have just arrived in the country. Debt restructuring has also been achieved. All this is adding to the Ruling Party’s checklist. However, the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbezhi Road has never seen any bitumen or tar mark, whatsoever, since the creation of the world.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, with this debt restructuring in place, will the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbeshi Road be constructed?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mitete for actually acknowledging in the first place that a lot of work is being done by this Government to deliver services to the Zambian people. He talked of 7,000 health kits that have come into the country. This is important because we know how much we have been talking about the drug situation in the country. So, the arrival of such items, which normally go to the primary healthcare services, is very important.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, debt restructuring is very important and I thank the hon. Member for taking note. In taking note of what has been done, the hon. Member said that there are many others that we may not spend time on, because it will be too long. However, the cry is like that of the hon. Member for Vubwi.

Madam Speaker, the cry is that the Katunda/Lukulu/ Watopa/ Mumbezhi Road has never seen a bituminous standard road. Having achieved debt restructuring, all I can say is that this will not bring the benefits today, but under this Government, we see light at the end of the tunnel.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: Therefore, the people along this road can have hope now that this Government will work because in restructuring – and the hon. Minister responsible is here, if I misrepresent him, that is okay, the hope is that we will attract investment into the country. This means we will have business coming in, and we will carry out projects using the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) model on some roads by releasing the Government resources to road works where it may be necessary that the Government spends money on. Some of the roads will now be worked on using the PPP model because those who could have partnered with the Government using the PPP model were scared to do so because of the junky  status we had reached as a country. With this hope, they will come and the Government resources will go to other roads, including in Kaputa.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, thank you and good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President. Last week, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development was very categorical on the Floor of the House and stated that no one was licensed to start mining at the Kanyelele Gold Site in Mpika and Shiwang’andu. However, a company called Ntamba Mweru Copper Mines Limited is on the ground with excavators and tippers carrying out full-scale mining. Since it is against the law, when will the Government move in to arrest the culprits and confiscate the material that the company has heaped somewhere to extract gold?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, have you not put in an urgent question in the same lines? We cannot eat with both hands. If you have put in a question, we wait for that question to be answered. Can we make progress.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for the opportunity to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question. The Secretary-General of the United Party for National Development (UPND), the party in power, is touring constituencies to look at how the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is working. There were some revelations in some constituencies that the 2022 CDF has not been utilised, which is a very serious source of concern to the people of Zambia because this money needs to benefit Zambians. What is Her Honour the Vice-President’s word of caution to Government workers who do not want to utilise this CDF and also a word of advice to hon. Members seated hear in Parliament pretending that the CDF is not a game changer?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Sinazongwe who has referred to the tours by the Secretary-General of the United Party for National Development (UPND) to check on the Constituency Development Funds (CDF) projects in the country. For some, it is an outcry that this is wrong. He is looking after a flagship programme of the Government and the party is the policy director of what happens. This is what it is. In the manifesto, those are the things people look to. However, the finding out of the fact that the 2022 CDF has not yet been used –

Hon Government Member: In Shiwang’andu.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Did he say in Shiwag’andu?

Hon Government Member: Yes.

The Vice-President: I did not hear that, but the fact that in certain constituencies, this has not been used is unfortunate. I do understand the issues that used to come on the Floor of the House, that the procedures were a little too tight and they are the ones that delayed the processes of procuring projects or contracting, or, indeed, giving contracts to people. I think that the hon. Minister sitting here is working. As we talk about the Government reducing rigidities, this is one field that we have worked on. I believe that things do not have to come all the way to the hon. Minister. Now, things are done at provincial level. This is something that has been done to make things move a little faster. So, the impediment on the speed could have been because of the procedures, but now that is not there. The reason hon. Members of Parliament are in the Constituency Development Committees, which is speaking to decentralisation, is that they are leaders. They come to this House because they want to serve the people.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, because these hon. Members want to serve people, they should be more concerned than anybody else because we went to promise the people that we would work for them. Everybody must follow up and ensure that the CDF is used properly and timely, and not to have such a long gap between (cleared her throat) the release of –

Hon. Members: Drink some water!

The Vice-President resumed her seat momentarily and drunk some water.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, all of us as hon. Members of Parliament should ensure that this is working. It would be embarrassing, if I had a constituency, to learn that up to now, (cleared her throat) –

Hon. Government Members: It is the PF.

The Vice-President: Yes, the PF is bewitching me.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Except for Kafwaya, he is not bewitching me.

Laughter

The Vice-President: The guilty one knows, it is Hon. Chitotela.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let us be serious with the CDF. We should not take the CDF like it is for our pockets, it is ours. Let us think of the people. Let me use this time to clarify the issue of the K57 million. I think somebody has been announcing that next year, the CDF will be K57 million. That is not the position. We will look at the available resources. This was just an example that we may find some counterpart funds matching the CDF. So, it was not a commitment that the CDF would be K57 million. So, I just want to clarify this through this House. We are at K28.3 million. As we can see – if things change, we may just go up because this Government, this President, wants the money to go to the people at the bottom, who need it, and not to us who are already getting paid.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President, my mom, in the context of democracy, human rights and equality before the law, what does it mean to her Government, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, when the police single out the Opposition for minimum force?

Madam Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President – We have a statement coming so, reserve your question for that time so you can ask the hon. Minister. We do not want to keep repeating the same story. We have a ministerial statement coming and anything related to that matter should be addressed.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, good morning to my sister, Her Honour the Vice-President, and welcome. We missed her for over four weeks.

Madam Speaker, there is a seemingly rising concern by the people in Luapula Province concerning the case of sugilite. Slowly, that matter is seemingly dying with comments coming from the leadership that the mineral is not classified anywhere within the Mines and Minerals Development Act. Is it the Government’s position that whenever people are looting natural resources that are not classified in the Mines and Minerals Development Act, they will not be made to account for their action?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you, and I would like to thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for raising that issue. Maybe, let me address two things as we tackle the people’s concern over sugilite. I believe there may be other minerals which have not been explored, and the people of Luapula want to see them so that they get the benefit.

Madam Speaker, on sugilite, to start with, from the Government point, we are working on profiling the mineral. You are aware that we really did not know about it and neither is it in our mineral profile. We are working on that so that it becomes a legal issue for us to mine and give mining licences and so on and so forth, until we know the extent of mining it and the price of the same. We are working on that. However, if you are talking of people looting, people illegally mining, there was an outcry here about that. We know that certain people were arrested and the Government has taken them to the courts of law. Let us wait for the due process of the law. Everybody is innocent until proven guilty.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I celebrate Her Honour the Vice-President’s Christian standing in society. Seven months ago, Zambia celebrated twenty-nine years of being declared a Christian nation. She and I understand the need for a nation to set up an altar, especially when a nation has taken the path of righteousness. What is the Government’s position concerning the House of National Prayer?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for reminding all of us that we are a Christian nation. There was a declaration accepted by all Zambians that we are a Christian nation and we should stand as such. With regard to the issue of finding a place that he called the national alter, and he referred to the house of prayer that was started a few years back, my office is in charge of religious affairs, and therefore, I can assure the hon. Member that we are doing consultations to see how we can approach the national house of prayer.

Madam Speaker, when it was started, I think it was given to a wing of the Government under security. We are talking with different mother bodies to find a common solution because when this is done and finished, everything cannot just be left like that and that anybody can go there. There is a need to know who will be in charge of its maintenance, control and use. So, we are in a consultative process of bringing on board everybody on how we will treat the National House of Prayer, which is still under construction.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I know in her inventory, Her Honour the Vice-President has an area called Chikwasha, which has many issues when it comes to disasters. In the last two weeks, our children from different villages have not been able to go to school. The few crops people managed to save from the floods, they could not harvest them because this part of Luangwa Ward is divided by two big mountains; Muchinga Mountains.

Madam Speaker, what has happened is that lions have crossed from the Game Management Area (GMA) to an open space. This is the area which borders Mkushi South. The people from the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) have no vehicle and no capacity to come to Lusaka through Kabwe and Mkushi and then go back to Nyimba Constituency and manage these lions. We have tried our level best as a community to manage them, but we have failed. What assistance can the Government render to the people of Luangwa Ward?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this question is extremely specific. These are the issues I have always advised hon. Members to bring to the office so that we can really understand them. Even him standing there for one minute cannot give the full status of the situation. We know that we have a ministry responsible for wildlife and we are aware of the animal-human conflicts, but we need to know where they are happening and in which form so that we can give a proper response of how we do it. So, I cannot give a full response which is satisfactory to the hon. Member. He is free to walk into the office of the Vice-President or, indeed, better still, to the office of the hon. Minister of Tourism.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, 860 former workers at the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZamPost) are going through hard times following their retrenchment and retirement. Although these former workers are on the payroll, they have not received a single salary for the past two years. A number of them have died and more are at risk. What measures is the Government going to put in place to ensure that those workers who are on the payroll are paid something? Several attempts by the union to engage the Government and management have proved futile.

Madam Speaker: Just for the avoidance of doubt, hon. Member for Chama North, have you not asked that question already? Have you not put in that question?

Mr Mtayachalo: No, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Okay.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, again, I do not want to answer this so quickly because there are facts that I need to verify, such as the number 860. How do I just answer or make a policy statement here on what we are going to do? These are the kind of questions that need a bit of time for me to be able to respond.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister says he had responded to this question when he was Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. So, if the response was not to the hon. Member’s satisfaction, then I am sorry. I am not the presiding officer, but I think these are things you put on paper so that we can find time to look at them. The hon. Member is saying for two years, nobody has received a salary. We need to verify that. I cannot make a policy statement here and say this is what we are going to do. We need to find out from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning or the substantive hon. Minister. It is a very important question but I do not have the facts to give this House without misleading it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Madam Speaker: In fact, the hon. Member for Chama North was advised to put in a question in writing.  If I recall, he raised that as a matter of urgent public importance and I did guide.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I want to find out from Her Honour the Vice –President whether the Government has realised that the Emoluments Commission is not working well with the labour movement in that the labour movement seems to have been curtailed or blocked in the process of negotiations for better wages and conditions. What is the Vice-President’s comment on that?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member’s concern is that the Emoluments Commission is not working well with the labour unions.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is right here. However, the Emoluments Commission does not, by provision, negotiate with the workers. The workers’ unions will negotiate with the workers and then go with recommendations to the commission. The labour unions do not just wake up and decide. There are always negotiations, and this is what is going on right now. I may not really fully understand that there is a barrier between the two and that they are failing to work together, but negotiations are part of the process of reaching an agreement on emoluments anytime. So, there are negotiations going on right now.

Mr Chaatila: Harmonisation.

The Vice-President: Yes, that is the purpose of the Emoluments Commission, it is to harmonise the salary structure in the Government, including many other wings. This is what is happening. We cannot conclude that it has failed. Remember that the Emoluments Commission is new, it is novel. Therefore, it may have many teething problems. However, it is working with unions to see how they can harmonise the salaries in the Government wage structure.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to ask a question and I say good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President. On many occasions, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has given directives that the Toyota VX vehicles which were bought after the 12^th August 2021 General Elections be disposed of.

Madam Speaker, the people of Bwacha and many citizens out there would want to know when this directive from His Excellency the President will be fulfilled through the Ministry of Finance and National planning? When are the Toyota VX vehicles going to be sold? Further, who gave the directive or the authority to procure the vehicles after 12^th August, 2021?

Madam Speaker: It is one question per hon. Member. So, which one would you like responded to? Is it the one about who gave authority or when the Toyota VX vehicles are going to be sold?

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, I guess Her Honour the Vice-President will choose between the two.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: I did not know that we now have multiple choice questions.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, indeed, the President gave directives. As Zambians, we needed to have listened, including those in the Government because this is not new or something we came up with after forming Government. We campaigned on this and said that we would use vehicles that are not too expensive, not only too expensive to acquire, but also to maintain. Hon. Colleagues, this is the way the President gave the directive, that nobody should purchase expensive vehicles. However, we have a system, and Government systems move too slowly. Some people did not adhere to the directive and they did purchase the Toyota VX vehicles.

Madam Speaker, this does not go well with prudent management of national resources because it is too expensive. Therefore, for those who bought such vehicles, particularly after coming into office, indeed, they must dispose of them. That will be done. I cannot give the hon. Member the date because modalities of disposal are being worked on. This is a fact. We want to save a little money to continue enhancing the CDF. We want to save a little money to continue enhancing free education. We want to enhance the resources of the country to be able to work on the Vubwi/Chipata Road and the Katunda/Lukulu up to Mumbezhi Road. That is what we are doing. That is why we are saying, for now, no such expensive vehicles. The time will be made after the modalities have been worked out, the modus operandi.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President is on record of having officiated at a ground-breaking ceremony for a teaching hospital in the North-Western Province. The people of the North-Western Province are so expectant to see the Government commission the construction of these hospitals. When is this project commencing?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for reminding me that we did two ground-breakings and launched the construction of a hospital. Of course, I do it on recommendation of the people on the ground. I am also waiting to come and open it officially. As at now, I also have not seen the progress. We will continue to follow up, and follow up where the resources were supposed to have come from.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, I want to congratulation the Government, once more, for the debt restructuring.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Daka: Madam Speaker, my question to Her Honour the Vice-President, through you is that: The poverty levels in this country have gone a little bit up to 11 per cent by 2022. There is a rumour of hunger in my constituency. When I went around my constituency last week, people were complaining and so, they asked me to bring to your attention that there is not enough food in all the constituencies in Zambia, particularly, in Msanzala Constituency. What are the Government’s plans as we go towards the rainy season?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Msanzala for that question. I thank him also for congratulating this Government, the President, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the entire team for having reached the agreement on debt restructuring.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member said poverty levels are going up and that is the concern of this Government. That is why we have worked so hard to try and put in place social protection programmes, which have increased. If you look at the budget for social protection, which includes many programmes, you will see that it actually goes up to K8 billion because we have to continuously help.

Madam Speaker, the reason the hon. Member has congratulated this Government for reaching an agreement on debt restructuring is that we were going down and now, through this agreement, we will start going up. The economy must start growing now. It is up to all of us to fight this poverty. We cannot do it politically. We have to work together and see our real concern for the Zambian people. They cannot continue to wallow in poverty. With all that God has given us; the resources, both natural and human, and you are the leaders (pointing at hon. Members) in this country, can we, for once, work together. We will continue to give social protection, but this is not enough because you cannot give everybody. The issue is this debt restructuring should help us to lift the economy so that people can have genuine money at their disposal. You call it disposable income. That is what we are working on.

Madam Speaker, I do feel the pain. We do feel the pain. That is why that hon. Minister (pointing at Hon. Dr Musokotwane) was not sleeping. The President was flying all over and he was called names but it was to find the resources. Umufyashi talala nga abana bali nensala.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: That is what Hakainde has been doing.

Madam Speaker, a parent does not sleep when children are hungry. This is what Hakainde has been doing. We hope he can have some rest as we start getting –

Mr Chisanga interjected.

The Vice-President: Ba Chisanga, what are you saying?

Madam Speaker, I think I have responded adequately.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Madam Speaker, the Zambian people are appreciating the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF). However, many urban constituencies are more developed compared to rural constituencies. Are there any plans to consider allocating more funds to rural constituencies taking into consideration the population and vastness?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mpongwe for that question.

Madam Speaker, this can call for a very long debate on how we apportion resources to the constituencies. There are many criteria that you look at. For now, it is necessary that we give according to constituencies.

Madam Speaker, I learnt something from someone who said, ‘look, you cannot say a constituency like Kalabo’ – How many people do you have in Kalabo or what is the population of Kalabo?

Mr Mabeta: 20,000.

The Vice-President: 20,000. I am just giving a figure. How do you call it a constituency compared to Mandevu with over a 100,000 people? The issue comes to the two criteria. There is the area, the space itself, that you have to service. As in the rural area, you may have big or vast areas that need long roads to reach the people everywhere. However, in Mandevu or Kabwata or, indeed, Kanyama, – where is the hon. Member for Kanyama? there are so many people that need services. So, you have to look at that. It is not easy to say, let us add here because there are more people who need health posts. So, you need them closer because they are many. In Kaputa, you may not need as many as in Mandevu. So, a decision was made based on that, but, in the long run, if we see that there is a need to look at some affirmative behaviour in allocating resources between rural and urban areas, that can be looked at. For now, it is constituency based. It becomes easier for us to ensure that everybody has access to the little resource.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, the Western Province has been known to produce very good results at Grade 12 for a long time. However, the results which came out this year, some time in February, shocked many people in the Western Province. The People of the Western Province would like to know what really went wrong so that we can be able to attend to whatever problem it was so that we can get back to where we used to be, which is in the top three in the country.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Was she there?

Madam Speaker: That question is too specific. Why do you not put in a question to the hon. Minister of Education then he will be able to provide enough information? For now, I do not think Her Honour the Vice-President will have the answers.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to ask this question.

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on Tuesday, issued a ministerial statement on the debt restructuring. The Patriotic Front (PF) borrowed US$11 billion between 2011 and 2021. Now, one issue which is very important is that of accountability and transparency. Whilst we know the total amount that was borrowed, the people of Zambia would want to know how this money was used. Is Her Honour the Vice-President, in the near future, able to bring to this House detailed expenditure of this amount so that the Zambian people know where this money went?

Mr Mabeta: Hear, hear!

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, I am asking this question because of the amount of corruption which was there under the PF.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Just ask the question, do not debate it.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before Her Honour the Vice-President comes on, hon. Member for Lunte, you have a point of order. What is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I rise on this very serious –

Madam Speaker: Oh, sorry, hon. Member! Do not mislead me. During this segment, there are no points of order.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we are just remembering one incident that was on social media where a member of our hon. Colleagues from there (pointing at the Opposition Bench) was saying, ‘these people are corrupt’.

Laughter

The Vice-President: That is on a lighter moment.

Mr Mabeta: Bowman!

Mr Chaatila: Imbwili!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for this question. It is very important. He has looked at what was presented. In fact, if I remember the figures, it is that in 2011, the debt burden was at US$1.98 billion. If I remember then, I was sitting somewhere there, (pointing at Hon. Madam Speaker’s Chair) when there was criticism that the Government was not using enough money, it was not borrowing enough to support the Budget because the Budget was changing from loan/debt bias to one locally produced. That was the debate then. From US$1.98 billion in 2011 to US$13 billion of borrowing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisanga: That was over ten years.

The Vice-President: You are right. Over ten years. There is no argument over that. However, we have to go back and see that we were once in a debt trap. The Government that sat here then, reduced the debt, including through the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) initiative and we appreciate that, but also through the prudent management of resources.

Mr Kabuswe: Correct.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we were then focusing on how to have this economy move to class B, whatever, minus. We were growing the economy as a country.

Mr Kabuswe: Correct.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the trajectory – that is why you should like graphs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the trajectory then, –

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this is a fact. The hon. Member has questioned. I am trying to answer, please, just follow. He may not agree with me, but this is a fact. Here, we come for facts. The graph was going up and our hon. Colleagues come and it goes boom boom boom down (makes a crumbling sound) I do know how the Hansard will capture this.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, one would have thought with this kind of borrowing and the little that we produced as a nation, the economy should have been going up. I mean, let us just be as ordinary as a villager like myself. You do not have to go to school like Hon. Kafwaya. You just have to be you. They were making resources in the country, they were borrowing and the economy was going down. Let them tell me the rational. They should not take us for granted as a people.

Mr Chitotela: Question!

The Vice-President: I am giving you homework, my son. You call me sister, but you are my son.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am giving homework to all of us and the Zambians out there. What went wrong? If it was so good, hon. Colleagues, the former hon. Former Minister of, …

Mr Kafwaya: Community Development and Social Services.

Mr Nkandu: For a short period.

Laughter 

The Vice-President: He was a railway line manager.

Madam Speaker, the point I am bringing out is that all of us should introspect, as a party and as the Government. Even us, we are thinking: is that what we want?

Hon. Government Members: No.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, after restructuring then when we are going out, we say ‘ten years, we borrowed more’, no. some of these things we should not discuss them particularly from some side.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Let the Zambians debate. Mistakes were made and we are here to correct them. We do not want – this is so personal to me, unfortunately, I am the Vice-President, so I have to remain within the line. As to whether I can bring a detailed account of what happened, I cannot commit to that standing here. This is because generally, every year, there is the Auditor-General’s Report. Those who are concerned, let us go back. Were those doctored or real?

Madam Speaker, for me, the real issue is that God will judge them for what they did.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. A very interesting segment. Unfortunately – at least, we have tried today. We have taken seventeen questions. Previously, we were only taking nine or ten questions. So, that is great improvement.

Just a reminder, hon. Member for Pambashe, Her Honour the Vice-President is your mother, not your sister. 

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, can we make progress.

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

ALLEGED POLICE BRUTALITY

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to issue a ministerial statement on the matter of urgent public importance raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency, Mr Clement Andeleki.

Madam Speaker, this arose from a statement issued by the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) alleging an increase in incidents of police brutality against members of the Opposition.

Madam Speaker, brief facts are that on 28^th June, 2023, LAZ president published an article in which he alleged that there was an increase in incidents of brutality attributed to the Zambia Police Service. In his article, he highlighted three incidents involving Patriotic Front (PF) members who came in conflict with the law and were arrested by the Zambia Police Service. These PF members included Mr Emmanuel Mwamba, Mr Rizwan Patel and Dr Christopher Zumani Zimba.

Madam Speaker, we wish to inform the general public through this august House as follows:

In the case in which Dr Christopher Zumani Zimba has been arrested and charged, brief facts are that on 30^th May, 2023, the Zambia Police Service charged and arrested Christopher Zumani Zimba, jointly, with three others for being in possession of articles for terrorism or proliferation purposes contrary to Section 25 of the Anti-Terrorism and Non- Proliferation Act No.6 of 20l8 as read with Section 2 of the amended Anti-Terrorism Act No. 6 of 2023 of the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, these offenses were committed in February, 2022. The offences are non-bailable. The matter has since been committed to the High Court for trial.

Madam Speaker, in the cases involving Mr Emmanuel Mwamba, facts are that on 17^th June, 2023, Zambia the Police Service arrested Mr Emmanuel Mwamba aged fifty-two and Mr Andy Luchende aged twenty-nine both of whom are residents of Lusaka for two counts of forgery contrary to Section 342 of the Penal Code of the Laws of Zambia. In addition, the duo was arrested for three counts of publication of information contrary to Section 54 of the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act No. 2 of 2021.

Madam Speaker, the offences are alleged to have been committed on 8^th June, 2023 in Lusaka. Further, on 17^th June, 2023, the Zambia Police Service charged and arrested Mr Emmanuel Mwamba for assault occasioning actual bodily harm contrary to Section 248 of the Penal Code. Mr. Mwamba is alleged to have assaulted one of the police officers who went to apprehend him on 17^th June, 2023. The accused persons are on police bond and will appear in court soon.

Madam Speaker, on 23^rd June, 2023, the Zambia Police Service charged and arrested Rizwan Patel aged forty-one of Bebos Construction and Supplies Limited on two counts of forgery contrary to Section 342 of the Penal Code Act Chapter 87 of the Laws of' Zambia. In another count, he was charged with the offence of publication of information, contrary to Section 54 of the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act No 2 of 2021. The suspect is on police bond and will appear in the courts of law soon.

Madam Speaker, in all the above-mentioned cases, I am proud to indicate that the Zambia Police Service acted professionally. The House may wish to note that under Section 26 of the Criminal Procedure Code Chapter 88 of the Laws of Zambia, police officers are empowered, I repeat, police officers are empowered to make arrest without a warrant in specific situations such as when a person commits an offence in the presence of a police officer or when the officer has reasonable ground to believe that an offence has been committed.

Madam Speaker, Section 18 (2) of the Criminal Procedure Code Chapter 88 of the Laws of Zambia, states, and I quote:

“If such person forcibly resists the endeavour to arrest him, or attempts to evade the arrest, such police officer may use all means reasonably necessary to effect the arrest”.

Further, Section 26 (J) of the Criminal Procedure Code Chapter 88 of the Laws of Zambia states that a police officer can arrest any person for whom he has reasonable cause to believe that a warrant of arrest has been issued.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to make clear pertaining to a perception by some sections of society on the Zambia Police call out. The call out is not, in any way, by law, a requirement for any police officer to effect an arrest. Let me repeat. Let me take this opportunity to make clear pertaining to a perception by some sections of society on the Zambia Police call out. The call out is not in any way a requirement for any police officer to effect an arrest. A police call out is merely an administrative process, accepted practice by which members of the public are invited by the police to answer concerns raised against them. Therefore, police officers do not always need to issue a call out in order to arrest a suspect.

Madam Speaker, unlike in the past, people are now free to interact with law enforcement agencies particularly, the Zambia Police Service. We have an open-door policy and members of the public are free to report any alleged crime without fear unlike how it was in the past.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, it is therefore, so disheartening to see institutions and individuals who are supposed to defend the rule of law oppose well-intended actions from law enforcement agencies.

The New Dawn Administration under the leadership of His Excellency, Mr. Hakainde Hichilema, President of the Republic of Zambia, is working tirelessly to restore law and order in the country.

Madam, the Government remains committed to upholding the principles of democracy, human rights and the rule of law. The Government will continue to foster an environment that encourages open discourse, respects freedom of expression, and ensure that law enforcement agencies operate within the confines of the law.

Madam speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister, which state would be good between the one which keeps law and order vis-à-vis a state which has no law and order. In which state would there be many killings, the use of teargas and the use of guns by police officers against innocent citizens?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, hon. Members of this house and the nation should always reflect on what transpired in the past as they try to understand what is happening now.

Madam Speaker, it is a matter of public knowledge that in the immediate past, when a leader of the Opposition was appearing before the police, at a police station, it was very common and usual for all those who escorted that leader to be brutalised.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Teargas was the order of the day.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Members of the public were being maimed and shot at by the police during that period.

Madam Speaker, it is also important to note that during the immediate past, the Zambia Police Service engaged in unacceptable conduct. Some of us, in particular myself and my colleagues, who used to represent leaders of the Opposition do recall that when the Zambia Police Service and others under the Patriotic Front (PF) went to arrest the President of the country, who then was the leader of Opposition, they went with a battalion of police and security forces and broke down the gate, ...

Mr Mabeta: At night!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they broke down the house and beat everyone who was there and stole things, which were in the house. As if that was not enough, they even shit on the beds of the President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, that was extreme brutality. So, I want to appeal to the nation to never forget such incidences as we reflect on what is happening now.

Madam Speaker, we should always remember what happened at the Zambia Police Service Headquarters when the current President was called to appear before the police.

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: The police went out of their way to discharge teargas.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Mr Kapyanga rose.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, they did not only discharge teargas –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mpika, resume your seat.

Mr Kapyanga remained standing.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, please, resume your seat.

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Madam Speaker: Resume your seat, hon. Member.

Interruptions

Madam speaker: Order, hon. Minister! Sorry.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 in its entirety.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Miyutu, asked the hon. Minister a simple question; to compare the two states, but now, he is not answering the question –

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: Can you keep quiet.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can we have order! Hon. Members, if we continue like this, I will move to the next segment. You asked a question and answers are being provided. This is a time to ask questions. So, let us give that opportunity to the hon. Minister. We only have sixteen minutes remaining.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I was stating and comparing what used to happen in the past and what is happening now. I will come to what is happening currently.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, with regard to the past, I was giving an example of what transpired at the Police Headquarters when President Mr Hakainde Hichilema was called to appear before the police for interrogation. The police discharged teargas, they beat people and they did not just beat people, but also killed one of our well-deserving civil servants, Mr Nsama, who was a prosecutor. They shot him in cold blood under the PF regime.

Madam Speaker, as if that is not enough, when we went to Luanshya to answer charges, they beat hon. Members of Parliament in Luanshya including the former vice-president of the United Party for National Development (UPND), Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba (GBM). I was his lawyer in Luanshya. As if that is not enough, under the PF, at Woodlands Police Station, many of our people were brutalised and tortured in the streets just for escorting a president at the police station. Now, let me come back to what is happening here currently.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The hon. Minister is comparing the two. He was asked to compare the two.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members left the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Proceed.

Hon. UPND Members: Go, go!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, currently, we have witnessed leaders going to the police station with their supporters and they are not being harassed in any way.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There has been no teargas in any way.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: This is the law and order. Our colleagues have been holding press conferences at police stations and nobody has harassed them. The rule of law under the UPND and the leadership of Hakainde Hichilema is reigning in this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Nobody has been harassed for going to a police station, nobody!

Madam Speaker, as far as we are concerned, law and order are a precursor to development. If a country slides into lawlessness, no investor or investment will come into the country. This is why the UPND leadership has insisted on ensuring that there is law and order in this country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Malole has abandoned his question.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I am speaking after engaging the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security but as Leader of the Opposition then. The only thing I can say is that maybe, Zambia is a cursed country.

Hon. UPND Members: How?

Mr Chitotela: I am speaking from experience my brothers. I remember that Hon. Jack Mwiimbu was a defender and fighter for human rights and so, we would engage on that subject matter. Now, to hear him stand there and say there is nothing wrong happening. Instead, he is comparing one wrong to another. The hon. Minister should know that this will not make us right.

Madam Speaker, on 12^th October, the Zambian people voted for change. When they voted for change, they expected better. As I am speaking, there are three land cruisers at the main gate of Parliament precincts laden with military officers with beacons. I remember how Hon. Jack Mwiimbu raised a question during the Vice-President’s Question Time, and Hon. Dr Guy Scott and the former Hon. Speaker had to retreat to the Speaker’s house to address the concern he raised. That was during the last Parliament, but today, he is saying there is nothing wrong that is happening.

Madam Speaker, bearing in mind that, yes, a call out is the best option where people are civilised and respect human rights. What is difficult about the police issuing a call out to the former Ambassador and sitting hon. Member of Parliament for Malole instead of standing at the gate and arresting him? Similarly, what is difficult about the police issuing a call out to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu instead of arresting him when he is with his family at a shopping mall?

Does the hon. Minister think that it is civilised that the law does not provide a requirement for a call out for the police to arrest anybody? Is that a civilised, modern and democratic way as well as respect for human rights that the UPND can stand and boast about today that whether one is an hon. Member of Parliament voted for by the people in that constituency or former Ambassador who has served this county with dignity, they can be followed up at the car wash and be picked up? Is that the new normal that Zambians must expect?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I was not going to zero in on the issue of the former Ambassador, but because he has brought it up, I would like to respond.

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: I do not expect a former Ambassador to behave in the way he has been behaving. I do not expect that.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: I expect a former Ambassador to abide by the laws of this country. He must be an example to the nation and the international community. That is what we expect of a former Ambassador.

Madam Speaker, I want to state that I was responding to the issues raised by Hon. Miyutu who wanted me to compare lawlessness and where there is law and order. That is what I did. Further, I mentioned in my statement that there is no legal requirement pertaining to a call out, but we have continued giving call outs where appropriate. We have done that. A number of your colleagues have been appearing before the police through a call out. That is what we have been doing.

However, I want to inform the hon. Member that the police are obliged to enforce a bench warrant. You do not need to issue a call out on somebody who has been issued with a bench warrant. The police have the mandate to arrest anyone who defies a bench warrant. If you have seen policemen outside there, they are not in the precincts of Parliament. They may be looking for people who are evading a bench warrant.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is their right. I cannot comment on that, but any responsible leader should oblige with the courts when they issue a bench warrant. It is unacceptable for two leaders of this House to be defying bench warrants. If they get arrested by the police, do not blame anyone. They are the ones to blame. They have bench warrants. My officers cannot be blamed because they are mandated to enforce law and order in this country. We will continue issuing call outs when we are investigating, but when it is so clear that a criminal offence has been committed and the police have evidence, they will not issue a call out. They will arrest.

Madam Speaker, a call out is issued to ensure that the person comes before the police for an interview. However, if a person commits murder, do you honestly believe that a call out should be issued? The answer is no.  The police will effect an arrest on that person.

Madam Speaker, I still stand against and condemn unprofessional conduct on the part of the police. If they are unprofessional in their course of duty, it is the responsibility of the individual affected to report the matter either to the police, the Human Rights Commission (HRC), the Police Public Complaints Commission (PPCC), or take the matter to court and appropriate action will be taken. That I can assure you. We would not want to slide back into lawlessness where gun culture was the order of the day. I think all of us, as leaders, in this House and members of the public would not want to go back to those days when wearing party regalia was a criminal offence. Members of the public who wore opposition political party regalia used to be brutalised. Some of them even ended up being killed for just wearing political party regalia. We will not allow that. If you go around Lusaka, currently, my colleagues from the Patriotic Front (PF) wear– the political party regalia that you see in Lusaka is for the PF and nobody is harassing them because there is law and order. People are enjoying their rights in this country under the New Dawn Administration and we shall continue protecting the rights of Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Stop the clock.

Hon. Members, the hon. Member for Pambashe said that there are police officers at the gate or in the precincts of Parliament Buildings. The reason they are here is on account of a non-governmental organisation that is presenting a petition to Parliament. The police are only here to maintain order. They are not tear gassing or harassing anyone. They are merely performing a duty in line with the law.

So, please do not be overwhelmed or scared that they have come to arrest hon. Members. They have come here for a different role altogether. They are not even enforcing a bench warrant, they have come for something else.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kasama Central, you may proceed.

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Thank you for the opportunity, Madam Speaker. It is quite disheartening to stand here. We are all politicians and we all have wounds from the past, and it hurts. However, I stand here to urge the House that it is time to progress. We are One Zambia, One Nation. When you drive your vehicle, you have a huge windscreen and it is wider than your rear view. It is time for us to make progress. Constantly looking back will not make us go anywhere.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Ms S. Mwamba: We all hurt and we heal. However, this is the time for Zambia to move forward. It is time to make progress. The rule of law should be in place. If there is an offender, let the law take its course. It is high time we lived as One Zambia, One Nation. There are 156 hon. Members representing the nation. It is high time we let our wounds heal.

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Ms S. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, those wounds will heal because time has come for the United Party for National Development (UPND) to be in the Government and to take the right step. If we constantly look back, we are not going to make progress. You say, …

Madam Speaker: What is your question, hon. Member?

Ms S. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, when are we going to make progress and live as we should? Time to make progress is now.

Mr Miyutu: We are making progress.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I had the privilege of visiting the Republic of Rwanda last week. The Government of that country always insists on taking visitors to the genocide memorial site. The intention of taking people there is to remind us that we should never ever, again, go back to those dark days. The Jews, the world over, and the United Nations (UN) always remind us about the Holocaust. It happened during the Second World War (WWII), however, we are reminded that such an incident should never be allowed to happen again. That is why, as the UPND, we will always look back and reflect on the wrongs that occurred. As we reflect, we make sure that those wrongs are not repeated. That is a well-informed decision we have taken. We will not allow lawlessness to reign in this country again.

Mr Nkandu: Especially by the Government.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member that we should ensure that law and order prevail in the country. It is in the interest of all of us. It is also in the interest of the nation that we ensure fairness in whatever we do. We should ensure that rights and obligations are enforced. I can assure you that as long as I am the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security I will do that. I can also tell you that even when some members of the public have been saying that we must deregister the PF, but I have said no because I believe in the rule of law. I believe that PF members have rights in this country. We shall always protect rights unless there is a wrong. So, I agree with the hon. Member that we have to move forward, however, even as one is driving, he/she should always look behind because he/she may cause an accident, and we would not want to cause one.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The last question is from hon. Member for Bweengwa.

Hon. Member, be brief.

Laughter

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. Let me thank the hon. Minister for that ministerial statement. If I look back at where we came from, it is disheartening to start thinking about that situation, especially under the Patriotic Front (PF) brutality.

Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister help the nation, because of that statement which he has just made on the Floor of this House, by telling us how many people have been killed through police brutally under the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government from the time we took over power. Could he also tell this nation –

Madam Speaker: Just one question, hon. Member. We have run out of time.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, they are related, so that we also mention how many people were killed through police brutality under the Patriotic Front (PF) regime.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the nation that no one has been killed by the police unlawfully during the reign of the UPND Government, none. However, I can confirm that during the reign of the PF, a number of Zambians were killed, wantonly, by PF cadres and police. That is why we always say that we should reflect on where we are coming from so that we do not repeat the wrongs that were done during that period. Every Zambian deserves the right to live in a country that respects that individual and their rights. I would like to guarantee that we are going to continue doing that.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

I have also permitted the hon. Minister of Health to render a short statement to clarify whether the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) is currently paying a maximum of K1,500 for cancer treatment, which issue arose during consideration of Question No.319, which was on the Order Paper, yesterday, 29^th June, 2023.

Hon. Minister of Health, you may proceed.

Mrs Masebo rose but did not go the Table.

PAYMENT OF A MAXIMUM OF K1,500 TOWARDS CANCER TREATMENT FOR EACH PATIENT

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity, …

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

I thought you would be in front.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo walked to the Table of the House.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Speaker, …

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the House may recall that yesterday, 29^th June, 2023, during the Questions for Oral Answer segment, the Hon. Madam Speaker directed that I make a follow-up on whether the Government was aware that the National Health Insurances Management Authority (NHIMA) currently pays a maximum amount of K1,500 towards cancer treatment for each patient. I was directed to come with information to update the House on this issue.

Mr Speaker, the position of the Government has not changed. The House may wish to note that, indeed, there is no limit to the treatment of cancer patients as this is dependent on their condition. Therefore, it is not correct that the maximum payment towards cancer treatment for each patient is K1,500.

Mr Speaker, the information on the tariffs is pre-agreed with healthcare providers. It is the intention of NHIMA that these services are accessed at the hospital. However, when and if a prescription is given, there is a protocol in place that allows the member to collect from a pharmacy. There are 649 drugs for oncology treatments, which are on the benefit package and are billed to NHIMA at the agreed tariff by the healthcare provider. There is no limit imposed on the patient as this is dependent on the condition of the patient. NHIMA covers various stages in the treatment of cancer patients.

Mr Speaker, like I indicated, there are issues of diagnostics, treatment and treatment cost, on the diagnosis for cervical cancer, prostate cancer, breast cancer and biopsy for other types of cancer. On treatment, there are 507 treatment plans for anti-cancer drugs which were approved during Q1 2023. On treatment cost, a volume of 649 on several oncology treatment plans for NHIMA insured patients were authorised at a cost of K4,998,167 in May alone, of 2023. The treatment plans ranged from one month minimum to six months maximum. On diagnosis, NHIMA covers the cost of radiology and laboratory diagnostic modalities as well as specialist consultation fees. For example, if it is a computerized tomography (CT) scan, it will be K2, 000, that is the CT scan without contrast. If it is a CT scan per region with contrast, it is K2,500. A Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) per region without contrast will be K1,800 while MRI per region with contrast will be K3,125.

Mr Speaker, I have various categories of treatment and how much they cost from K2,500 to K5,975. These are different payments that NHIMA makes around different treatments for cancer patients. I will not go into the details of the different tariffs that they pay for each treatment, whether it is injections given or tablet. I will just lay this report on the Table of the House so that hon. Member of Parliament can access this and the public will be able to access once it has been adopted.

Mr Speaker, further, NHIMA covers the cost of hospital admission and related in-patient costs. The scheme covers more than 170 inpatient conditions, like communicable and none communicable disease, internal medicine, reproductive and maternal health, paediatrics, vision care, dental services, ear, nose and throat, mental health, minor surgery and major surgeries. It also covers for accommodation as below:

Classification of HCPs      Type of Accommodation            Amount (ZMW)

Class B and C HCP           Accommodation per day                350.00

Class A- Level 1                Accommodation per day                 500.00

                                           HDU per day                             650.00

Class A- Level 2 and 3      Accommodation per day                  600.00

                                           HDU per day                              650.00

                                           ICU (all-inclusive fee) per day    3,000.00

Mr Speaker, under rehabilitation, NHIMA covers the cost of rehabilitation including various forms of physiotherapy. Further, NHIMA covers orthotics and prosthetics as follows:

Description                                            Class C            Level 1            Level 2/3

Exercise therapy/

Electrotherapy/physiotherapy                200                  200                  200

(45 min session)

General Exercise                                  200                  200                  200

Pre and Post-natal                                200                  200                  200

Pre and Post-Operative                          200                  200                  200

Specialized Exercise Training                 200                  200                  200

Manipulative Therapy-reduction               200                  200                  200

of joints, fractures, and POP

immobilization/splinting                       

Mr Speaker, again, I will not go into the details of the various descriptive treatments under rehabilitations whose costs are covered by NHIMA.

Sir, NHIMA covers the cost of hospice care for up to ninety days as enshrined in Statutory Instrument No. 63 of 2019. Ninety days would be the maximum duration of the insured hospice care in a calendar year.

Mr Speaker, lastly, under palliative care or terminal care, all-inclusive accommodation and management, NHIMA would be paying K78.40 per day, but obviously, a maximum of ninety days. In summary, as has been explained, you will note that there will be no limit to the treatment of a cancer patient as this is simply dependent on the various conditions of each patient.

Mr Speaker, it is possible that when patients go to these pharmacies, maybe, there is a different story that is taking place there, and all I can say is if that be the case, then this must be reported to NHIMA or to the Ministry of Health so that appropriate action is taken against those pharmacies, be it private or public, that may be doing something else.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Masebo laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I must mention that this point of clarification came about because the hon. Minister was not ready yesterday, and so, I will just allow one question from the hon. Member for Chama North.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that clarification. At least, I am happy that she is saying that if these pharmacies are doing that, then they must be reported to NHIMA and the ministry. However, the fact of the matter is that when patients go to those NHIMA accredited pharmacies and they want to get the medication for chemotherapy, they have a ceiling of K1,500. Unless one wants superior drugs, they may have to top up to be able to get for K4,500. I think that has been the concern of the members of the general public.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, there are many times when the Government comes up with a particular policy, but when we go on the ground, at times, we hear all these different explanations. I think that it is just in order for the hon. Members to help the Government by getting this information and bringing it to our attention so that, indeed, if there is something happening on the ground, then appropriate action can be taken against those who may be doing something that is not correct. However, what it is, is what I have laid on the Table and I would like to invite hon. Members of Parliament to get hold of that information and share it with their offices so that the District Health Directors can communicate to the appropriate pharmacies.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, one of the things that arise from the ministerial statement is the various categories of cancer and their prevalence. Does the ministry have any screening programmes on prostate cancer like the ones for cervical cancer? As champions of reproductive health, it is important that we know the programmes that the ministry has for prostate cancer because it is one of the cancers that is quite common in men. What programmes does the ministry have?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that supplementary question. The Ministry of Health, working through different departments of the Government, has programmes relating mainly to raising awareness of these different cancers including prostate cancer. We have had, in the past, some very good champions that always came, for example, on the radio to sensitise the public on some of the different forms of cancer. At the moment, we are doing better as a country, in terms of sensitisation because in the past, they would say that somebody has been bewitched, but now, people have appreciated that there is no bewitching, the only bewitching is that sometimes as individuals, we are not taking care of ourselves or some of this is inherent. All I can say is that as a ministry, we do have several programmes on the subject of cancer sensitisation, but obviously, as the questioner has indicated, you will find that a cancer like cervical cancer is receiving more attention than prostate cancer. Again, it may be because cervical cancer is much more pronounced. That is why it may look like it has more attention. However, all I can say is that we are doing everything possible to ensure that we have different programmes or activities that will help us not just in the prevention of these cancers, but also in the treatment and issues of care.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement. I want to know if it is the Government’s position so that patients even at the Cancer Diseases Hospital in Lusaka know that when they go there and they are told that the maximum the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) contributes is K1,500 while the rest has to be paid by the one seeking medical help. The hon. Minister is telling the nation and the patients out there that that is not the Government’s position and that patients must not subscribe to that. May the hon. Minister confirm that.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I heard the hon. Minister respond to this earlier on.

Hon. Opposition Members: The patients are waiting.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Why should we be repetitive? Maybe, the hon. Minister can shed more light, but I heard her say that already.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I think the answer is simply that K1,500 is not the maximum amount and that everything depends on the type of treatment for each individual patient. So, the amounts will vary. If it is palliative care, one can only be in the hospital for ninety days, which is different. For the ninety days, I have given you the daily cost, which is K78. If it is just drugs or injections, the figures for some of them are below K1,500 and others will be above that, and NHIMA has specifically said it is not correct. If it is happening in the pharmacies, that should be reported so that the matter can be dealt with according.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, have you heard now?

Laughter

Mr Chitotela: She has not answered my question.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, she is very categorical that it is dependent on individual cases or it is a case to case basis. There are those who have been diagnosed with stage one of the disease, and the case will be different. For those who have been with the disease for some time or depending on the type of cancer, the treatment will be different. That is what she said in the ministerial statement. So, when the hon. Minister is giving the Government’s position, let us be very attentive.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for her ministerial statement. Yesterday and today, we heard that cervical cancer is the most prevalent type of cancer that affects many women and even causes death. From the knowledge that we have, we all know that cervical cancer is transmitted through sexual relations; sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, and it is transmitted by men, yet –

Hon. Members: Question!

Ms Halwiindi: Yes! Allow me to elaborate. I think the doctors understand this.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, just ask your question.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi: Mr Speaker, thank you so much. There is robust sensitisation for women to go for testing at least after three months, yet there is nothing compelling men to go for testing so that they participate in prevention. Is there any programme to make sure that men come on board to participate in the prevention of the transmission of cervical cancer?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for a very important and factual question. It is important, obviously, that our male folk do participate in these programmes, considering that in some cases, they cause cervical cancer, not always, of course. Not only that, I think that in good partnerships, either family or non-family, it is always helpful in issues of healthcare to include men. What I can say is that we have a programme for male circumcision which has become very successful. I think that Zambia is one of the countries that has done well in this exercise of male circumcision in the past decade. I can confirm that our men have responded very well to that programme.

Mr Speaker, so, maybe, let me use this opportunity to encourage our men, especially parliamentarians –

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, we need to be leading by example so that our followers, our families, our children, can also follow suit because male circumcision does really help to prevent the males from passing any of these sexually transmitted diseases or from contracting infections from their partners.

I thank you, Sir.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PLANS TO REHABILITATE THE MPIKA/KASAMA ROAD

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: By prior arrangement on Questions for Oral Answer under Standing Order No. 74, we will start with Question No. 327.

327. Mr Mtayachalo (Mkushi North) (on behalf of Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya)) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Mpika/Kasama Road;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Mr Speaker, the Government will consider plans to rehabilitate the Mpika/Kasama Road once the Treasury secures the required funds.

Mr Speaker, the plans will be undertaken when the Government mobilises resources for the project and the contractor is procured.

Sir, the timeframe for the project will only be known when the contractor for the work is procured.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, my question is on the previous –

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is a point of order on –

Mr Munsanje: No, no, it is not a point of order. I had indicated to ask the hon. Minister –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, there is a point of order from another hon. Member.

Mr Mutale: Mr Speaker, I am sorry for disturbing the House, but where I am seated here, I have an Order Paper, and according to the rules of this House, we deliberate according to the order of the day.

Mr Speaker, I can see that on the Order Paper with me, there are questions starting from No. 324, 325, 326. However, I have seen that we have skipped all these questions and gone straight to Question No. 327. I know that the Order Paper of this House is usually circulated on our website. The people out there are following and I am sure the people in Kalabo want to know what has happened to their question, the same for the people in Chinsali.

Mr Speaker, are the Whip and the Leader of Government Business in the House in order to allow us to continue with the proceedings of the House in the manner we are proceeding?

I seek your guidance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you. That is a very good observation. However, the same Standing Orders that you have in your hands say that the Speaker regulates the Business of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, the authority of the chair supersedes all the House procedures. As such –

Mr Kapyanga: That is dangerous now. Very dangerous.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think you have the Standing Orders in your hands, you can peruse Standing Order No. 55 (1) and it will tell you that one of the functions that I do when I am in this chair is to regulate the Business of the House.

Let us make progress.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, let us make progress. The hon. Member for Mbabala may continue.

Mr Munsanje: Mr Speaker, my question was for the hon. Minister of Health during her question time. I wanted to ask on orthotics and autoptic.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker, the Mpika to Kasama Road is a very busy road. It is a road which is able to finance itself. If you look at the derailment in commerce happening on this road and the damages to a number of trucks happening on this road, you will realise that it will be good for us to engage partners in a Public-Private Partnership (PPP).

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to see to it that some of the bottlenecks in the PPP arrangement are addressed? I know that the hon. Minister may wish to have this road worked on as soon as possible.

Mr Speaker, has the Government got any plans to see to it that it engages partners on roads which are commercially viable like the Mpika/Kasama Road so that we remove the bottlenecks which are there? I know the Government wants to construct this road but the bottlenecks are too many. Is the Government willing to do that so that we can have the road worked on as soon as we can?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo: Mr Speaker, this particular road is a very critical trade road. It diverts traffic that comes from East Africa because of the poor state of the Serenje/Chinsali Road. Usually, vehicles from East Africa pass through that particular road. Does the Government intend to undertake emergency works, especially between Kasongo and Chief Mpepo’s palace because that is where the road is extremely bad?

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, as an intermediate measure to ensure the road remains motorable, the Government through the Road Development Agency (RDA) is undertaking porthole patching works using funds from the Force Account.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us make progress. We go to Question 227.

Hon. Member for Kalabo Central, it is your question.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I have been put in an awkward position.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Have you withdrawn your question?

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, what I know is that my question is 324. So, the procedure is what has been objected to. What should I do? If the House has objected to the procedure, then I have no power. There is nothing I can do. What should have been done was objected to.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Forgive the House.

Mr Miyutu: Okay, for the sake of unity and peace, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: ...you can give me back the slip.

Mr Miyutu got a slip from the Clerks at the Table.

So, Mr Speaker, for the sake of peace and unity and the love for this House, I withdraw Question No. 324 in accordance with Standing Order No. 79 (2).

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Alright, that is a good thing to do. We go to the next question.

IMPORT COVER FOR THE PERIOD 2021 AND 2022

325. Mr Menyani Zulu (on behalf of Mr Mukosa (Chinsali)): asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what the import cover was, as of the following dates:

1. December, 2021; and
2. August, 2022.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the import cover which measures the number of months of imports that can be covered with financial assets, denominated in foreign currency that are managed by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) has been above the target of at least three months of import cover.

Mr Speaker, the gross international reserves as at end December, 2021, amounted to US$2.8 billion which was equivalent to 4.2 months of import cover. This was mainly attributed to receipts of Zambia’s allocation of US$1.3 billion in special drawing rights.

Mr Speaker, as at end of August, 2022, gross international reserves were US$3 billion, equivalent to 3.5 months of import cover. This is above the macroeconomic target of at least three months of import cover for 2022, as outlined in the 2022 National Budget.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, first of all, allow me to congratulate the President, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the entire Cabinet for having clinched the debt restructuring programme which was time bomb hovering over our shoulders.

Mr Speaker, when the United Party for National Development (UPND) took over Government, we only had below a million dollars of import cover. How did we manage to grow the funds from US$900 million to US$ 2.8 billion within four months?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, first of all, as a result of the trust established by the Government, there was that allocation which was a grant, never to be paid back, of US$1.3 billion worth special drawing rights. Thereafter, BoZ has been slowly buying foreign currency to augment the reserves that were in its possession.

Mr Speaker, I also want to add that the issue of coming to terms with creditors, those we owe money so that we do not pay with the agreement, we did not pay because our money or reserves was very limited, and because they could see that the Government was making concerted efforts to reform the economy, they were in agreement with us. Without the debt restructuring or corporation with creditors, all the reserves that we had would easily have disappeared in debt servicing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF MINI-HOSPITALS IN KATOMBOLA CONSTITUENCY

326. Mr Andeleki (Katombola) asked the Minister of Health:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct mini-hospitals in the following areas in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency:

1. Bombwe;
2. Ngwezi;
3. Mukuni;
4. Kauwe;
5. Sikaunzwe; and
6. Musokotwane;
7. if so, when the plans will be implemented;

1. what the cost of the project is; and

1. if there are no such plans, why?

The Minster of Health (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, before I respond to this question, I just seek your indulgence that hon. Members of Parliament should stop asking questions relating to mini-hospitals because there are no mini-hospitals. I did clarify that. So, next time I have another question on when we are constructing mini-hospitals, I will just say no, and sit down.

Hon. Member: We do not know that.

Mrs Masebo: I did inform you. So, this is the last time.

Hon. Member: They are old questions

Mrs Masebo: They are old questions? Okay. Anyway, I thought so. That is why I am answering.

Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to construct hospitals in the following areas:

1. Bombwe;
2. Ngwezi;
3. Mukuni;
4. Kauwe;
5. Sikaunzwe; and
6. Musokotwane.

Mr Speaker, as stated earlier, the Government has no immediate plans to construct mini-hospitals in the stated areas in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency. Therefore, parts (b) and (c) of the question fall off.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government through the Ministry of Health has reclassified the health service delivery structures and that we no longer have this classification. Instead, the health service delivery structures are as follows:

1. health posts;
2. health centres; urban and rural, which will now all have maternity annexes;
3. first level hospital known as district hospital;
4. second level hospital known as general hospital;
5. third level hospital which is a teaching hospital; and
6. fourth level hospital which is a specialised hospital.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that construction of the above health service delivery structures is dependant among others on the catchment population, distance and other epidemiological considerations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, considering that the hon. Minister constantly receives question relating to when the Government will construct health centres and all the other facilities that she has highlighted, has the ministry done a needs assessment in all the constituencies so that we are able to have an idea of when any health facility might be considered? For planning purposes, and if you look at my district, Mufulira, for example, does the ministry have a plan that says there should be ten or twenty health facilities?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important supplementary question. Currently, we do not have one, but we are in the process, and without me giving a Government assurance, it is my hope that in the next month or so, or even less, this kind of information will be available. It is our intention as the Government that this kind of information is made available and brought to the House in form of a ministerial statement so that hon. Members of Parliament can be fully aware of what the Government intends to do in the mid-term period, 2024 to 2026.

Suffice to say, Mr Speaker, that hon. Members must also take into account the current policy of the Government on decentralisation and the instruction of the Government through the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to the effect that primary healthcare will or has begun to be devolved to local authorities. Going forward, local authorities, which, hopefully by then, hon. Members of Parliament will begin to work with to plan for their districts in accordance with their needs in terms of health posts and centres.

So, Mr Speaker, all these issues need to be synchronised so that there is no duplication. Furthermore, in terms of policy and guidelines from the centre, that is the ministry, local authorities and communities on the ground will be able to know what to do and how to do it. This is to do with the standard of a health post, standards and drawings for a health centre so that there is uniformity and so that we do not have a situation where, at one time, hon. Members of Parliament in their various constituencies spend their money on constructing health posts or centres and at the end of it all, they remain white elephants. So, all these issues really need to be synchronised. That is why I said the hon. Member’s question is very appropriate and timely. To assure him, we are taking all these issues into account and I will shortly come here to give our position.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, just for clarity’s sake, the need for these mini-hospitals, which the current Government is not appreciating – The hon. Minister has said she will not be attending to questions relating to mini-hospitals. However, is it not a sign that people are in need of expertise; the skill of a doctor? Imagine a distance of 90km from Ng’uma to the boma where the doctor only prevails and there is no ambulance. Would this not be a needful activity to reduce the distance that members of the community cover to where the doctor is? Is it not a way of cutting the story short or making the distance short?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his supplementary question, which I obviously see, he needs to be helped to understand as he has rightly said.

First of all, Mr Speaker, I have to say that this administration does appreciate mini-hospitals. So, it is not correct to say that we do not appreciate mini-hospitals. It is also correct to say that any structure of health that is constructed either by the Government, the private sector or, indeed, now, the local authorities using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) will definitely be a plus.

Mr Speaker, I think what we have stated is simply a matter of classification because it is important if you are doing things in an orderly manner that whatever you do must make sense. So, if I am to answer his question on whether it does not make sense to bring services as close to the people as possible, the answer is, yes. It is desirable, but he knows for a fact that the numbers of specialised treatment personnel or doctors in this country still remains below the required international ratio. However, we have to make do with the numbers we have. So, in the spirit of accessibility, quality healthcare and, indeed, equality, it means that the person offering these services must be orderly and should know what he/she is doing.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the question which was asked by Hon. Mumba, you will see that that is exactly what we should be doing. We should be able to understand, looking at the whole country and factors like population needs and disease burden, where we need a health post. Where do we need a rural health centre or urban health centre? Where do we need a district hospital? It is not just to litter facilities around without taking into account the real needs such as the availability of human resource, otherwise, we will end up with structures throughout the country which are not opened. So, to answer his question, yes, we need doctors as close to the people as possible and it is our intention to do that. When we bring our paper here to explain our plan for implementation, maybe, at that time, the hon. Member will be able to appreciate.

So, Mr Speaker, the answer is simply that we want to be orderly. We want to make sense so that we have fewer questions on the Floor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, this is a constituency-based question. So, I will allow the hon. Member for Katombola to ask the last question.     

Mr Andeleki: Mr Speaker, firstly, allow me to ask the hon. Minister of Health to emulate the humility of other senior hon. Ministers here like the Vice-President. I do not like her approach or attitude and I must make this very clear. This is because we do work for the Ministry of Health so, she should understand the perspective in which we ask these questions.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, resume your seat. Hon. Member, you are the one who is not humble. Why do you not just ask a question as permitted? If you have scores to settle, she is your sister and you can still talk to her.

Mr Andeleki: Mr Speaker, thank you. I think the reason I am appearing to lose myself is a point of the difficulties. When we ask these questions, it means there is a need. In Katombola Constituency, as I am speaking today, if you died in Katombola, you would have to be buried the same day because there is no mortuary in five chiefdoms. So, when we come to this place to raise these questions, it means they are serious.  To move from Bombwe to the nearest hospital, which is Kazungula, it is 286km and the Mulobezi Train services are suspended. The dead body cannot be moved.

Mr Speaker, so, when we bring these questions here, it is because they are very serious. I want the hon. Minister of Health to take these questions that we bring seriously and not say: ‘I will not answer’. This is a Government question posed not to an individual, but to the hon. Minister in the Government. So, I want her to understand that particular perspective.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Andeleki: Mr Speaker, I put it to the hon. Minister of Health that I have close to 178,000 people, according to the census of population and housing. The distance between Moomba Chiefdom and the nearest hospital which is Kazungula Central Hospital, which does not have a mortuary or anything, is 426 km. So, can she tell me now what the way forward will be for my people if there are no intentions of putting up a facility which has a mortuary and other facilities?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, let us avoid being confrontational with hon. Ministers. I am sure if there was something that you needed clarity on, her office is open you can still go there. If certain answers have not been given to your satisfaction, you can always visit her. Often times answers from hon. Ministers are based on the resource envelope that is constrained. Hon. Member, you of all the people, who is from the right side, should be able to understand that this country is debt-burdened.

Hon. PF Members: Question! 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us make progress. Hon. Minister of Health, you may respond.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, thank you very much and I would like to thank the hon. Member for the supplementary question. The answer remains that we have no plans.

 I thank you, Sir.

CONTRACT SUM FOR THE KASO/CHUNGA/BWINAMBO/KALELA ROAD

 328. Mr Menyani Zulu (on behalf of Mr Mukosa (Chinsali)) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

1. what the contract sum for the rehabilitation of the Kaso-Chunga-Bwinambo-Kalela Road in Chinsali Parliamentary Constituency is;
2. how much money had been paid to the contractor, as of August, 2022;
3. what the cost of the works done, as of August, 2022, was; and
4. when the project will be completed.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Speaker, the contract sum for the rehabilitation of the Kaso/Chunga/Bwinambo/Kalela Road was K79,712,358.00.

Sir, the amount that was paid to the contractor as of August, 2022 was K9,647,147.25.

Mr Speaker, the cost of works done by the contractor as of the same month, August, 2022 was approximately K10,746,593.80.

Mr Speaker, the contract has since expired due to financial constraints. Therefore, the completion date will only be known once the contract has been put back into place and also subject to funds being available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Mr Speaker, I understand we have problems across this country and a good number of contracts have expired. The Government has already spent about K9 million on this road. Looking at the importance of this road, does the hon. Minister not think it would be prudent for us to move quickly and see to it that the road is done?

Mr Speaker, the K9 million the Government has spent on this road will just go to waste and the amount he has mentioned is too much.  Has the Government engaged other people to carry out an audit so that the contractor can be sent back to site?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the idea of moving quickly on any contract is on our mind. However, in answering the hon. Member’s question, I would like to put it to him this way: If you are driving a car and your fuel gauge is showing you that your fuel is on quarter tank and your destination is 500km away, no matter what speed you apply to the car, there will come a time when the red light will come on and the car will stop. This is what I explained when I said the contract expired due to financial constraints. I was just putting it in simpler terms.

Mr Speaker, we have attached great importance to connectivity roads, especially in our rural areas. This is the reason the President, in his wisdom to include rural development, decided to re-profile the ministry that I am responsible for, the one that I am very privileged to run. This was done in recognition of the fact that the Development Agenda seemed to be favouring urban areas only.

Mr Speaker, using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we have encouraged hon. Members of Parliament to buy road fixing equipment such as graders, water bowsers, roller compactors, front end loaders and tippers. The amount of work that can be done from the contract sum of K79 million, which I have just explained on the Floor of this House, can buy a set of about five of such equipment. This means that sum can buy five graders, five roller compactors and five water bowsers. So, it is only prudent that the hon. Member for Chinsali encourages the people there through the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) to minute for the requirement of acquisition of such equipment, which have a lifespan of more than thirty-years in most cases. Then we will be good together.

Mr Speaker, we found the immediate past arrangement where money was being looted under the guise of road contracts to be unsustainable, unworkable and absurd, to say the least. You could not put money of such colossal amounts into only doing 10km of a road after you have spent K10 million.

So, hon. Members should, please, understand that while I encourage them to ask these questions, this now seems to be like a broken record because from time to time, these questions pop up from one constituency or another. Hon. Members should expect exactly the same answer. Probably, the English may be different like today when I decided to illustrate using a motor vehicle and a quarter tank.

Mr Speaker, to put it clearly, we are not going back to those contractors. Those contractors must find other clients, not this Government.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: They must look for other clients, maybe, in another country to go and engage in this kind of exorbitant and non-economic way of enriching a handful of people. I am encouraging hon. Members to buy graders and roller compactors and work on the roads perennially. The only cost that will be there is the cost of service of the equipment and the cost of fuel. Then we will all be smiling. We will be good together.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mabeta: Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development whether, following the successful restructuring of Zambia’s debt, which has given us some breathing space to allocate resources to needy areas, we are likely to get a bit of funding towards rural roads so that we can start planning for 2024.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, did I hear you ask about rural roads? The hon. Ministers just explained that you need to buy equipment. Should he now go back? Let us make progress.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the Government would not go back to most contractors whose contracts were terminated. Now, my question is: What is the position of the Government, especially on advance payments that were made to the contractors, which I believe have not been recovered?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the answer to that question is that this contract type presented a huge complication for the ministry that I run in the sense that the ministry is obliged to pay for all Interim Payment Certificates (IPCs) that were generated by local councils which were the authorising officers through the provincial road engineers. So, we will try by all means to honour them.

Mr Speaker, I want my hon. Colleague and friend from Pemba to know that because of the nature of these roads and the unstable rainfall pattern, which sometimes is overbearing, the roads get washed away from time to time, which makes it extremely difficult to even verify the IPCs.

So, Mr Speaker, there will be two scenarios here. We will look at those who got advance payments against the IPCs that were issued. Should there be any balance of undone work, just as it is with the work already done, the Government will claim from those companies. It is a bit of a complex matter, I must confess, because the whole spectrum of these contracts was laced with a lot of informalities right from the point of award of the contracts. In many cases, people were sharing contracts even away from the office. They would just sit and say, ulefwaya road contract? Ehe, ndefwaya road contract. Meaning, do you want a road contract. Yes, I want a road contract.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: This is a –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, we did not understand the language you used. Translate what you said.

Mr Nkombo: I just did, Sir. I said, it means do you want a road contract? Ulefwaya road contract? This is the reason you found that certain citizens could enjoy having up to five contracts, in certain cases using different names, in other cases, one name with more than six contracts in several locations. This is because it was like in-breeding. It was a matter that was exclusive to the chosen few members of the Patriotic Front (PF) mostly, and I am saying this without fear of any contradiction. Some of those who enjoyed these contracts are here in this House.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: So, it must be understood that even as questions are coming, you must know that they may be coming from a point of interest. I mean an interested party, to the extent that some can even stand on the Floor of this House and tell me how excellent some of these companies are, yet they have never worked for the ministry that I am privileged to run today. It shows you that they know each other. They are bedfellows, they understand each other, they belong to the same WhatsApp group and are now at a loss because they will not be paid for the work, which they did not do. They will only be paid for the work they did. In the case –

Mr E. Tembo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: You can see them from their fruits and their reaction because the guilty are always afraid.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to raise a point of order.

Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. In terms of relevance, there is as clear question put before the hon. Minister. If he has no answers, he must state so. We are surprised. Is he in order to start politicking when the nation is looking forward to his direction for this country regarding the many problems being faced? The United Party for National Development (UPND) Government was put in office in order to address these problems and not to talk about the past which only him perceives.

I am most obliged and I seek your ruling, Sir.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: If I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he was responding to a question on how the Government would be able to recover the advance payments that were given to contractors now that the contracts were terminated. So, the hon. Minister had to make his point known. He had to explain the circumstances that led to the termination of the contracts and eventually, how the Government would be able to recover the money. It became an issue to people because they wanted to hear the way forward. I guess more people were interested. So, the hon. Minister was just trying to put across a situation and how the Government would recover the money that is purported to have been lost in the contracts that were cancelled.

Hon. Minister, have you finished so that we make progress?

 Mr Nkombo: I am about to finish, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: I am just about to finish, Sir.

Sir, issues relating to these questions that I am encouraging hon. Members to continue asking happened in the past. So, I can never answer a question on a matter that happened in the past using the future. I will have to refer to the past. Maybe, to take advantage of this – and let it not come across as a threat, when we look at the way these contracts were framed, the friendly encouragement I would give to our friends is that they should have some certain possession of social shame ...

 Laughter

 Mr Nkombo: … because now it is clear they are taking the kindness of the Government as a weakness. It should never be misunderstood to be a weakness. I have said on the Floor of this House that a contract is bilateral or multilateral and where terms of a contract are abrogated, the aggrieved must approach the court. I have said that because a court of competent jurisdiction is where issues are settled. I am still encouraging hon. Members to tell their aggrieved friends, who send them to come here to ask questions for answers that they know will be the same, to go to court instead of sending them here where they will meet this face and more will come out. I hope they will hire you as a lawyer, you who has been sent to make these points of order asking me to be relevant, so that you can get a fair share of embarrassment on how money was being looted by your party and your Government at the time. So, we must possess some social shame attributes even as we try to represent our people. Things went wrong in the past, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasandwe: On a point order, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: I am just about to finish.

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 in its entirety.

Mr Speaker, there is no need for the hon. Minister to be confrontational. We need to work in unison.

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: I will tell you to keep quiet again.

Mr Mabeta: What is your point of order?

Mr Kasandwe: Are you the Presiding Officer?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kankoyo!

Mr Kasandwe: Icho chibeleshi.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: What do you mean by that?

Mr Kasandwe: Familiarity breeds contempt.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, the point of order is on the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. There is no need to be confrontational and political at any given time. The question was very simple. How is the Government going to recover the down payments? That was the question. Is the hon. Minister in order to go round waffling and politicking instead of just answering the question?

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Member, let us also mind how we address ourselves. It is not necessary for you to use words like ‘waffling’.  Withdraw that word and replace it with an appropriate one.

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘waffling’ and replace it with fishing.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker:  You have already debated your point of order. May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I was just about to conclude.

In concluding, Mr Speaker, I would like to use an English adage that says, water seeks its own level. I encourage hon. Members of Parliament to develop their constituencies using the money that President Hakainde Hichilema has provided through the broadened Constituency Development Fund (CDF) by extent and by size. We, then, shall be good together. I am one hon. Member of Parliament who does not have any feelings about what I am called, whether I am called a waffler or anything else, I am good to go, but the whole point is that we must educate ourselves that water seeks its own level.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker:   Thank you. Let us make progress.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON CABINET AFFAIRS ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NATIONAL MONITORING AND EVALUATION POLICY IN ZAMBIA

Mr Lubusha (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs on the Implementation of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy in Zambia for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 27^th June, 2023.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Lubusha: Sir, in accordance with its terms of reference as provided for in the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders 2021, your Committee undertook a study on the Implementation of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the objectives of your Committee’s study were, among others, to ascertain the sufficiency of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy objectives with regard to strengthening institutional monitoring and evaluation structures, capacity development and accountability and to understand the challenges faced at national, provincial, district and sub-district levels in the implementation of the Monitoring and Evaluation Policy.

Mr Speaker, in order to fully interrogate the matter under review, your Committee held meetings with selected stakeholders and undertook tours to the Southern Province, the Central Province, the Copperbelt Province and the North-Western Province. Allow me to now highlight some of your Committee’s findings which have been captured in the report.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes with great concern that the current legal framework on monitoring and evaluation is ad-hoc, fragmented and generalised. The laws lack explicit provisions of monitoring and evaluation. Consequently, these gaps are responsible for the weaknesses in the overall implantation of the monitoring and evaluation functions by the Government. Your Committee, in this regard, urges the Executive to enact a law that will compel adherence to the aspirations of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Framework.

Further, Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that the monitoring and evaluation units in most ministries are domiciled under the planning departments and are almost non-existent at provincial and district levels. This has resulted in the monitoring and evaluation functions not being prioritised due to other priorities and pressing needs of the planning departments. This is in spite of the importance of monitoring and evaluation in measuring the benefits and impact of policies intended for beneficiaries.

Mr Speaker, in view of this and in order to strengthen the monitoring and evaluation function, your Committee recommends that the Cabinet and Treasury authority should be granted to all ministries to establish monitoring and evaluation as a standalone directorate. This will enhance its significance and practice, and it will bring it at par with other key functions in the Government.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also notes that monitoring of some Government projects is weak resulting in some sub-standard works being certified for commissioning. This is due to the lack of an effective monitoring and evaluation system as well as standardised monitoring and evaluation tools for projects. Your Committee, in this regard, urges the Executive to develop standardised tools for monitoring Government projects. Further, in view of the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF), your Committee also recommends that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development should have standardised tools for monitoring the CDF projects by local authorities.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, in agreeing with stakeholders, also notes that at district level, the capacity of monitoring and evaluation tools is low due to limited access to information and communication technologies (ICTs) as well as the inability to manage information. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government through the SMART Zambia Institute should ensure that ICTs and information management are enhanced at district level in order to support the monitoring and evaluation activities for the generation of evidence-based reports. These reports will then feed into monitoring and evaluation at national level.

Mr Speaker, as I end, I wish to put on record that monitoring and evaluation is important in ensuring that targets set on programmes and projects are counterchecked and accounted for. This is particularly important in ensuring that the country’s development agenda is achieved in a timely and cost-effective manner. Therefore, I urge the Government to prioritise the rolling out of the National Monitoring and Evaluation Policy at all levels of governance.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, I wish to pay tribute to all stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before your Committee. I also wish to thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support services accorded to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Halwiindi: Now, Mr Speaker.                                                                                   

Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, once more. As I second the Motion, allow me to commend the mover and chairperson of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs for ably moving the Motion on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, allow me to highlight some of the pertinent issues that your Committee found as it received submissions from witnesses and what it found on the ground when it went round the country. Your Committee noted that structures of monitoring and evaluation are missing in the National Planning and Budgeting Act of 2020, thereby, causing vague linkages in the existing legislature. Furthermore, as the chairperson noted, there is no law that backs monitoring and evaluation, hence, we have seen that even implementation of the monitoring and evaluation function is lacking in most ministries and at provincial levels. If there is no law backing this function, we are going to see most Government programmes and projects not attended to or achieve the intended results. Hence, your Committee is urging the Government to come up with legislation on monitoring and evaluation.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also noted that there is insufficiency – Of course, the policy is sufficient to give general guidelines on monitoring and evaluation. However, despite being sufficient, we have noted that there are no structures starting from the ministry, provincial and district levels apart from a few ministries. I can give an example of the Ministry of Health. At least there, there is a monitoring and evaluation department, and we saw, as we went to the district level, that these structures exist. However, in most ministries, the structures do not exist, thereby, making it difficult for the Government to monitor and follow up on programmes and projects that it implements.

Mr Speaker, we also noted, while on the ground, as mentioned by the mover of the Motion, that monitoring activities are conducted by the planning department in most of the sectors. There is a danger in assigning monitoring and evaluation activities to the planning department because once programmes are rolled out in various ministries, it is the same department that plans for those projects or programmes and also comes up with the implementation plan. It is as if you are giving a student to set their own assessment question after teaching, write the examination, mark it and give himself/herself a mark. This is not right. Maybe, that is why you have seen that it is very difficult to collect data from various districts for programmes that are rolled out by the Government. If there is no data that is available for it to assess the result, then we are also giving false information. Even when we assess the progress, it is false, and it does not give the right picture of how a programme was implemented.

Mr Speaker, we are also going to be getting data that is not only inadequate but also wrong data because there is no one who would wish to fail themselves. Going forward, we insist that it is very important for us to ensure that monitoring and evaluation becomes a standalone department in Zambia. This is so that there will be a separate entity monitoring the Government programmes and projects, and may be able to measure the results of those programmes. That is what is going to ensure that the Government is able to attain the intended goals of the programme. It will also assess any deviation from the intended goals or results of any programmes.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, let me be quick to mention an important point similar to assigning monitoring and evaluation functions to the planning department. I want to emphasise that this will derail the progress of any project or programme that the Government may assign to any department. We also urge the Government to ensure that there is Treasury authority so that we implement various departmental goals. There should also be a budget line to support monitoring and evaluation so that the structures that we are going to formulate will not suffer any inadequacies in terms of performance. They will have enough finances and transport to ensure that they move around.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, just to mention that we need to ensure that the SMART Zambia Institute is incorporated into monitoring and evaluation so that it can be able to help various departments with data collection and get the right data to assess the implementation of any Government programmes and projects.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I beg to second the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Thank you so much, Mr Speaker for this opportunity on behalf of the people of Sikongo to add a voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. From the outset, I would like to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion for the able manner in which they have debated.

Mr Speaker, monitoring and evaluation is a very important function of national development, especially as far as the implementation of projects and programmes is concerned. I agree with the report from your Committee that we need to pay special attention to this important function.

What we have seen in the past is as a result of poor monitoring and evaluation of our projects and programmes in this country. We have many white elephants that are scattered all over the country. Monitoring, by definition, is the process of checking progress of what we are doing vis-à-vis the set objectives that we want to achieve. However, of course, this has to be done during the implementation phase. When we talk about evaluation, we want to assess the progress of how we achieved that which we had set ourselves to achieve during the implementation of our project or programme. So, we can talk about mid-term evaluation, which of course, looks at when we have done half way of the project or programme and how we have fared.  In addition, at the end of the programme, we have impact evaluations that are done to also look at the overall impact of our programmes and objectives over a long period.

However, I think what is important with monitoring and evaluation is that monitoring gives us an opportunity to collect data and information that we can feed back into our decision-making process. So, if we do not have a proper monitoring mechanism in place, then it will be very difficult for us to even evaluate the performance of our projects and programmes at the end of the day. Therefore, it is really important that this important function is taken seriously.

Mr Speaker, monitoring and evaluation is a function of planning, and so, it is very difficult to divorce monitoring from planning. The two move hand in hand. However, I think what is important is to make sure that the people we give this responsibility know what they are supposed to do. Like the report clearly pointed out, people who are conducting monitoring and evaluation do not actually understand what their role and function is or what monitoring and evaluation is all about. As a result, we see people who just go on what I would call sightseeing trips and they are calling it monitoring. That should not be the case.

Mr Speaker, when we go to do monitoring, it is important that we have a tool that we are going to use to assess the process or check the progress that we are making. Thereafter, we sit back and look at how we are moving in line with our set objectives. Are we in line or we are getting away from that which we had agreed? If so, what measures are we putting in place to make sure that we get back to that line that will make us achieve our intended objective?

Mr Speaker, I agree with your Committee when it talks about the lack of capacity. I want to relate this to the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CFD is a developmental antidote that has been missing in this country in as far as the development of the rural areas, especially, is concerned. So, the CDF being so important and looking at the resources that we have put in it, it is important that we do not make these resources go to waste because of not monitoring.

Yes, we can be spending this money on building infrastructure and doing this and that, but if not monitored, those resources would have just gone to waste because they will not achieve what we want to see at the end of the day. We are going to have structures that will not last, maybe, just within two years they are done. For instance, some of the desks that are being made right now are not up to standard. They will not last for so many years. If that be the case, then we might end up getting back to the problem that we are trying to solve right now. So, let us make sure that we carry out monitoring and evaluation exercises.

Mr Speaker, what is most important for me, as we talk about capacity, is that in this country, we have a tendency of engaging in certain activities and not learning from them but we want to reinvent the wheel. In this country, we had a programme that was called the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZSIF). That programme is almost like what we are seeing today under the CDF. The only major difference is that it wanted to build capacity at community level from planning, implementation and monitoring. So, participatory monitoring and evaluation was actually encouraged at that level.

Mr Speaker, this programme was running around 2000 and 2001. If people in the Civil Service are able to get back that programme, they will realise that we can learn a lot from that programme, which can help us actually achieve a lot in as far as the implementation of the CDF is concerned. So, we need to make sure that at ward level, we have participatory monitoring and evaluation by the Ward Development Committee (WDC) for example. However, for them to do that, they need to be equipped with the necessary tools and instruments that they can use to collect the information so that these projects that are being managed at community level realise what this Government intends to do.

Mr Speaker, to this end, I would like to thank the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government for coming up with the idea of purchasing the CDF vehicles to help with the monitoring of projects. That was a timely and very good initiative. Why am I saying this? The money that we have is making us implement and execute many projects, which is a good thing. However, if not monitored or if this vehicle was not there, it was going to be very difficult for all the stakeholders to be able to move from one project to the other and make sure that the CDF is used for what it is intended. So, a timely warning to our people in the local authorities is that the CDF vehicle has gone there not to be used for their objectives or activities. Therefore, they should use the CDF vehicles purely for monitoring the projects. We have seen in other instances where the council chairpersons are now using these vehicles for other activities which are none CDF, and that is unacceptable.

Mr Speaker, capacity building is very important as it can enable us to make sure that our resources are put to good use. So, regarding the tool that we can use to monitor, let us get back to ZSIF because it had a tool for collecting information. So, we should get back to what we used to do under ZSIF because the tool is already here and it is going to help us. We just need to tailor it to what the CDF is trying to do so that we have a uniform way of collecting information in all these CDF projects and then brought to district level, integrated, then province, so that at national level, we are able to see the picture of what we are trying to do throughout the whole country. That way, we are going to make sure that the CDF is doing that which we intend it to do; taking this country out of poverty.

Mr Speaker, I want to end by saying that the CDF is a good initiative, it is that missing antidote that this country has never had. The enhanced CDF is good for all of us.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, allow me to first of all thank the chairperson of your Committee, Hon. Andrew Lubusha, for having moved this Motion regarding implementation, monitoring and evaluation. I also want to thank the seconder of the Motion.

Mr Speaker, this is a matter that obviously, we can look at from very different perspectives. One of the perspectives, which has obviously been explained, is the issue of a legal framework. I want to pick a different angle because I am sure those who have spoken before me have already elaborated the urgent need for a legal framework.

Mr Speaker, we are a country that has so many wonderful documents that we are not utilising effectively. If we have to go through our list of statutes, we will see that we are a country of so many beautiful pieces of legislation. The question is: Have we achieved everything that we intend to achieve with the current legal framework for so many other objects? The answer is, no.

Mr Speaker, the point I want to make in the few minutes that you have accorded me to speak relates to our failure as a country to implement what is already in place. We are discussing an issue to do with monitoring a project. If I was to ask each one of us today whether the legal framework will ensure that every project is monitored, the answer would be no. Will the legal framework ensure that the correct thing is done? Again, the answer is no.

Mr Speaker, the point I want to make is that yes, there is a need for us to have the right pieces of legislation, the policies in place and we need to come up with a law. I totally agree, but that in itself does not guarantee that a project that is taking place in Kasama Central today will be effectively monitored and the resources will be put to good use.

Mr Speaker, I want to speak to the conscience of our workers across the country because that is what we are supposed to be doing; speaking to the people who are supposed to implement these projects in Ndola Central and speaking to the men and women who are supposed to oversee the implementation of these projects in Monze Central. Those are the people we must speak to in as far as implementation and monitoring of our projects is concerned. I do not think the conversation is only about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) project. This is about our many different objectives as a country.

Mr Speaker, I am aware that, at some point, as a country, we committed ourselves to the attainment of what we used to call Millennium Development Goals (MDGs). One of the reasons we did not achieve the MDGs is that there was a failure to ensure that all the goals that were identified were implemented at the required pace. We are now monitoring the pace at which we are implementing what we are calling Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). Where are we with the SDGs? Is it a failure of not having a law that ensures that projects are monitored? I do not think that is the problem. The problem is the lack of collective effort and good attitude as a country. I am saying this because officially, from all the reports that come to our different Committees, there is always one problem that is pointed out; that resources were released and the project was not implemented at the correct pace. So, today, I want to speak to our workers across the country, and we too are workers, and say that monitoring a project is our collective effort. Ensuring the prudent use of released resources needs our collective effort. This is an effort that starts with the local people at the lowest level. It is an effort that requires that civic leaders who are councillors actively participate. It also demands that the civil society plays an active role. If we each identify the roles that we have to play, we will not be blaming the lack of existence of a law because I am aware that the report identifies that as one of the key challenges that we are facing in as far as monitoring projects is concerned. 

Mr Speaker, I thank the chairperson, the seconder and everyone who has commented on this matter. However, I do hope that from this conversation, each one of us and those who are listening to this conversation will be able to ask whether it is the law that is preventing us from monitoring a project in Mumbwa. The answer is, no. Even ;if we put in place that law, if the attitude of our workers and the attitude of each one of us does not guarantee that we look at the priority of these projects, resources will be released and we will not be able to achieve what we intend to achieve in our respective constituencies. So, I want to say to our workers across the country that we have a country to develop. We are far behind many other countries as we have lagged behind. I do hope that from this conversation, the excuse of a legal framework will not prevent our workers from implementing programmes and activities of the Government.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to debate this important report. I want to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Lubusha and the seconder. The conversation on monitoring and evaluation is very important. There is an adage which says without proper planning, failure is inevitable. I want to comment on the issue of a legal framework. I strongly agree with the report that we need to come up with a very well-defined legal framework that is going to institutionalise monitoring and evaluation, starting from the national Government to the lowest level in the implementation of all the Government programmes. That will enhance accountability, information sharing and also ensure that there is knowledge amongst the people who are implementing Government programmes.

Mr Speaker, I will give an example of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF is a project which requires a well-established monitoring and evaluation system. I want to mention that at the point that councils are developing their implementation plans for the CDF, there is a need for local authorities to also demand for a monitoring and evaluation plan, which will also include what is referred to as a visibility plan. At the moment, very few councils are even able to demonstrate success stories. I was excited when I saw brilliant success stories from constituencies like Mongu and others. However, does it mean other councils do not want to have success? The answer is that they want to succeed but have no capacity to do so.

Mr Speaker, monitoring and evaluation, like my hon. Colleague did mention, is not something you can easily do without having the right capacity. At the University of Zambia (UNZA), this course is offered. It might be a bit of a new concept in Zambia, but now, it is something that has gone to degree level. We should not expect the people who are implementing the Government programmes to easily conduct monitoring and evaluation because they require to undergo some training so that they may be able to execute this function very well.

Mr Speaker, monitoring is not just about having a vehicle, like someone mentioned, where you just go and check whether the plumber is doing the correct thing, then you see and walk out, no. It is beyond that. You need to set targets, you need to set indicators, and you need to have very correct tools on how you are going to determine whether you are on track. You need to be having reviews. Right now, we are in the second year of implementing the CDF and we needed at some point to even factor reviews, to check whether we are on target in the way we are implementing the CDF. You will learn that certain groups like women and youths might not be benefiting from some initiatives because we have not set clear targets that are going to help us check where we are.

Mr Speker, a few days ago, we sat to review the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), and we discovered that some of the targets are not well-set and we will struggle to check progress when the targets are not siting very well. Therefore, this conversation is very serious. We need to have planners in these councils.

Mr Speaker, I want to appeal to your office. Can hon. Members of Parliament be given an opportunity to be trained in monitoring and evaluation because we also indirectly provide an oversight function to the activities that are taking place in the councils, where the bigger conversation is on the CDF? With hon. Members of Parliament not having adequate understanding of monitoring and evaluation, we might not be able to provide adequate oversight function in the administration of the CDF and any other Government programmes.

Mr Speaker, I also want to mention that monitoring and evaluation helps us to check whether we are on track or we are deviating from the intended objectives. There are many Government programmes such as the 8NDP; there are so many to mention. They are integrated from the district level, to the provincial level, up to the national level and they need coherence in terms of checking the direction we are going. I am here to mention that things have been happening in a very haphazard manner such that it becomes very difficult to trace the direction we are going and to know whether we are on track.

Mr Speaker, let me mention that monitoring and evaluation is key to enhancing transparency and accountability. We need to have sessions with community members. Monitoring and evaluation is not only about checking the process, but also about building confidence in the people we govern because we are able to give them feedback. This time, they no longer call it monitoring and evaluation, they call it monitoring, evaluation and learning because there is an aspect of sharing information, checking the direction we are going and making prompt decisions. If something is not working out, we need to reach a point where we make a decision. The CDF loans, are they working out? Is there anyone who is already conducting a research to check whether all the components of the CDF are siting very well and are reaching the intended targets like the women and the youths? So, all these are the questions that will sit when we institutionalise monitoring and evaluation.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, in most of our councils, reports are being given but they are not disaggregated by gender. You will find that someone is talking about a certain component but women and the disabled are not listed. All these issues would sit very well if you prioritised monitoring and evaluation frameworks. We also have tools that are very deliberate which we are going to use in determining whether we are on track or we are losing direction. Monitoring and evaluation allows us to make real decisions. If we discover that something is not working out, we need to not shy away from it, but make a decision and do away with it, provided we have empirical evidence generated from the system that your Committee is demanding us to put in place. With those few words, I thank you and I strongly and with a passion, support the report that has been laid before this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for giving the good people of Mbabala, through me, an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the report of your Committee on Cabinet Affairs ably presented by Hon. Lubusha and seconded by Hon. Chrizoster Halwiindi.

Mr Speaker, monitoring and evaluation is a very important subject. We are in the era of results-based evidence as well as planning. Therefore, nothing should be happening in areas of developing work without evidence.

Mr Speaker, here at the National Assembly, we are members of the African Parliamentarian Network on Development Evaluation (APNODE) or the Development Evaluation Association for African Parliaments. As parliamentarians, we want to ensure that whatever developmental work being done in the country is embedded in monitoring and evaluation, and learning, as added by hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi.

Mr Speaker, we also have important associations in the country like the Zambia Monitoring and Evaluation Association (ZMEA) which are available to offer technical support to the Government of the Republic of Zambia. I think this course is also now being offered at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and we have got professors there. So, we can build capacity in our country in the area of monitoring and evaluation. The era of people simply going to the field and coming back without objectives, targets or anything is over. This is an era where we have to use tools.

Mr Speaker, monitoring is a management process that is meant to help inform management to make decisions whether they are on course, whether they need to change course or whether they need to add a few more inputs including resources. Similarly, evaluation is also a very important management tool in the area of either process or summative or end line evaluations. It is important that these are fully backed by the legal process, as your Committee puts it. That will help us to move things in a very systematic manner, especially that the New Dawn Government is well known as a very methodical Government.

Mr Speaker, we, therefore, continue to support this methodical approach of the New Dawn Government in as far as development is concerned, so much that we can easily tick the boxes. Already, as a country, we have been ticking from the campaign promises where many of the campaign promises have been delivered. We have ticked free education, which was a campaign promise. That is monitoring. We have ticked the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA), ka something, that was a campaign promise and we have ticked the debt restructuring and it happened. So, we can see that our monitoring and evaluation is embedded in all of us, we only need to make it more systematic and methodical by virtue of putting a legal framework in place and putting the right tools and indicators. We need to set a baseline. When we took over this Government, we set a baseline. We found an empty Treasury, ...

Mr Mabeta: A junk status.

Mr Munsanje: ...a junk status and a lot of corruption. We also found the human rights record tattered and brutal killings of our citizens and the like. That is the baseline of where we are coming from. We have been moving, and we have been doing the correct things to remove all these. The junk state is no more. We are now a very good state. We have moved away from the brutal killings. There are no more killings and corruption is over. So, as far as monitoring and evaluation is concerned, I think we are moving.

Mr Speaker, these frameworks that Hon. Twambo Mutinta talked about need to include gender, disability and other cross cutting issues such as the environment. This will help us ensure that we measure things and attribute success correctly to the areas where success has been attained.

Mr Speaker, I call for the improvement, indeed, on the Eighth National Development Plant (8NDP) because this is a very important plan that needs to be linked to the –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 5^th July, 2023.

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