Wednesday, 28^th June, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, before I make the announcement, I just want to state that I am disappointed with the hon. Member for Petauke Central and the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. They saw the procession coming in, but they continued talking until I reached this table, and the national anthem was played. Please, desist from such conduct because you will be subject to punishment for breach of the Standing Orders. Let us try to observe and comply with the Standing Orders. As the procession comes in, we should be in total silence and comply with the rules.

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following hon. Members of the Portfolio Committee on Defence, Home Affairs and Security Services, and staff from the Parliament of Zimbabwe:

Hon. Brig-Gen. Levi Mayihloma (Rtd), MP, Chairperson and Leader of  the Delegation;

Hon. Albert Nguluvhe, MP

Hon. Annah Rungani, MP

Mr Pensel Marunga, Member of Staff

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

Thank you very much. You are welcome.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

SHORTAGE OF WATER IN SOME AREAS IN PETAUKE CENTRAL

314. Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central) to ask the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

1. whether the Government is aware that in the last two weeks, there has been a critical shortage of water in the following areas in Petauke Central Parliamentary Constituency:

1. Anusa;
2. Showgrounds;
3. Tasala;
4. Garden Compound;
5. Chimate;
6. Kamfinzi;
7. Fairview; and
8. Chibisa Turn-off; and

1. if so, what urgent measures are being taken to resolve the problem and avert water-borne diseases.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government is aware that there has been a critical shortage of water in Petauke Central Parliamentary Constituency the past two weeks in the following areas:

1. Anusa;
2. Showgrounds;
3. Tasala;
4. Chimate;
5. Kamfinzi;
6. Fairview;
7. Garden Compound; and
8. Chibisa Turn-off.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the ongoing water supply challenges in the named areas, and indeed the entire urban areas of Petauke District, are as a result of the long-standing issue of calcium blockages coupled with low production capacity.

Madam Speaker, the following are the urgent measures being undertaken to improve water supply in the district:

1. the Eastern Water and Sanitation Company (EWSC) has organised 100 x 75 mm pipes, these are unplasticised polyvinyl chloride (UPVC) pipes, for replacement during maintenance;
2. an addition of ten general workers have been hired for a period of one month to assist in resolving calcium blockages;
3. out of the eight areas reported, the EWSC has been able to resolve and restore water supply to five areas, namely Turn-off, New Houses, parts of Chimate, Fairview and Showgrounds areas;
4. the EWSC is currently working on the remaining parts of Showgrounds, Anusa, Garden Compound and Fairview; and
5. the Government has a long-term plan to address the water challenges caused by the built-up calcium or calcium concentrations in water by migrating from the current underground source, which is full of calcium, to the surface water source.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, this is a constituency-based question, and we have a lot of work to do according to the Order Paper. There are two Private Member’s Motions and two reports that we have to consider. So, we should not take too much time on these constituency-based questions.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to ask the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, my house is in Fairview and I stay –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, remember that we do not debate ourselves. Do not introduce yourself in the question. Proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, Madam Hon. Banda stays in Fairview area and everyday –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, do not debate people who are not in the House or other hon. Members. Just ask a supplementary question.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, what the hon. Minister is saying is not true because I have different information. There is no water in all the mentioned areas up to now and people are suffering. Even now you can see – people are covering up to 40 km just to go and get 20 litres of water. However, the hon. Minister is telling us that the ministry has started working on the water supply, which is contrary to what is on the ground. Is he aware that in Petauke Central, there are people and animals? We use animals for farming and there are people in those areas.

Madam Speaker, I seek the hon. Minister’s answer.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central, for that question.

Madam Speaker, I have provided answers based on our engagement as a ministry with our representatives, and by this, I mean our commercial utility in the Eastern Province, which has informed us that it has been working on some of the affected areas the past one week. So, it is unfortunate for the hon. Member of Parliament to say that that is not true. The hon. Member of Parliament is here in Lusaka and is being briefed by the people on the ground, and I am equally being briefed by the experts who are resolving this problem.

Madam Speaker, I think it is important that as we ask questions, we seek solutions for our people and not just come to cause drama. I think that I did due diligence and I engaged our representatives on the ground, who provided answers.

Further, Madam Speaker, I added that this problem has been ongoing for a long time because the whole Petauke, particularly the central business district (CBD), where Petauke Central Constituency is, has a problem of calcium. As this calcium builds up, it blocks the pipes.

Madam Speaker, we are already thinking of a long-term plan, and resources allowing, we want to start extracting water from the dam which is about 12 to 15 km from Petauke Central, and this dam is called Lusowe. Once we have resources in place, we are going to migrate from the ground source of water, which is full of calcium, and hopefully this will improve water supply to the people of Petauke. In the short term, however, our utility company is already on the ground to try and replace some of the pipes that are completely blocked. Once this is done, we hope that the water situation in the affected areas will improve.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to ask the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, I am privileged to have undertaken a study of the water situation in the country and the Eastern Province has one of the well managed water utility companies. I think it should be second after the Lusaka Water Supply and Sanitation Company (LWSC) to have become a commercial utility.

Madam Speaker, the question I have for the hon. Minister is: What is contained in the ministry’s policy, especially with the case of Petauke? We seem to be reacting to issues that emanated from a poor maintenance plan, as the case is whereby calcium is clogging the pipes. Does the ministry have a plan for Petauke and any other towns? There is a very good management at the Eastern Water and Sanitation Limited (EWSC) and by now, I expected that such problems should have been over. Is there a plan to ensure that this is avoided in future and replicated in other water utility companies?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kambita for that follow-up question. Indeed, we plan to address such challenges. However, it must also be appreciated that the quality of water varies from one place to the other. In Petauke, for example, there is the problem of calcium which builds up and blocks the pipes. In other areas like in Mwandi, there is a problem of salt water. In other areas, the water contains iron. So, the quality of water varies from point to point and herein is a situation in Petauke where calcium has for some time been building up. This is why we are saying that we cannot go on with a situation whereby we depend on a ground water source, which, as I have stated, has a lot of calcium in it and is affecting our pipes.

Madam Speaker, in terms of maintenance, we can be replacing the pipes, but for as long as we depend on the ground water source, they will again be blocked in the long term. That is why we are saying that we have come up with a plan to move away from depending on the ground water source to the surface water source, which is a dam called Lusowe. What is remaining is for us to find resources to put up a treatment plant and lay a network of about 12 to 15 km to take water to Petauke District.

Madam Speaker, as you know, my ministry has under it ten commercial utilities covering the various provinces and each one of them has a maintenance plan. In the Eastern Province, particularly in Petauke, there is a problem of calcium which cannot just be resolved by continuously replacing the pipes. So, the replacement of the 100 UPVC pipes that I mentioned is just an interim measure. The long-term measure, however, is what I have stated that we need to migrate from the ground water source to a surface water source.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Minister’s people in the province are misleading him and are causing him to do drama –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, ask a supplementary question. Do not accuse the hon. Minister. Just ask a supplementary question.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, well guided and I think the hon. Minister should also be counselled because he said that I do drama here, yet I am representing people, and these are the real things which are affecting my people.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you have been duly guided. Please, follow accordingly. Ask a supplementary question. Do not attack the hon. Minister. It is not correct to attack each other. Let us work in harmony with one another. Just ask a supplementary question.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, in other areas, the ministry has provided water bowsers as an emergency because you know water is life. What is failing the ministry from providing a water bowser for the good people of Petauke Central as they are waiting for it to work on those challenges, and the hon. Minister said that this is in the pipeline?

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did not answer my first question so I do not know how –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, I do not know whether I am not able to reach you. Ask one question at a time. You asked the first question, and now you have asked the second one. Allow the hon. Minister to answer you.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Banda for the follow-up question. In doing that, let me correct what I said earlier that we have ten commercial utilities (CUs). We actually have eleven, but I meant to say that we have eleven CUs covering all our ten provinces. So, I thought I should just correct that.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of the water bowser, the EWSC, currently, does not have a water bowser. When we notice that some areas are stressed in terms of water supply, and as and when the facility or the equipment is available, we are able to provide a water bowser. Unfortunately, currently, we do not have any water bowser that we can give the people in the Eastern Province. The situation in Petauke is already being addressed, as indicated in my answer. So, for now, the area does not require a water bowser because it will mean getting one from another province, when we have already started addressing the problem.

Madam Speaker, if the situation persists and is not resolved in good time, the hon. Member can engage my office to ensure that we expedite the works that are being undertaken to address that problem.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I think we have exhausted the question. Let us make progress.

PLANS TO CONSTRUCT COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN LEALUI AREA

315. Mr Amutike (Mongu Central) to ask the Minister of Technology and Science:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct communication towers in Lealui area in Mongu District; and

 

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Mobile Network Coverage Gap Analysis recently conducted by the Government indicated that seven areas needed coverage in Mongu District. However, Lealui was found to be well covered, and there were, thus, no plans to construct any communication tower in the area as our coverage map shows that it is sufficiently covered. Nevertheless, if there are any areas identified by the constituency office that are unserved and underserved, the Government, through the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority, (ZICTA) can undertake a focused assessment.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that plans to construct communication towers are informed by findings of a gap analysis. That exercise is followed up by the Government working with all mobile operators, namely Airtel Zambia, MTN Zambia and Zamtel, which may install towers in selected economically viable needy areas. In the underserved and unserved areas, the Government through the Universal Access Service Fund (UASF) managed by ZICTA installs towers as and when sufficient funds are available. In view of the response given in part (a) of the question, Lealui in Mongu District is well covered.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Minister that the network in Lealui Village is erratic and His Majesty the King is not enjoying proper coverage of mobile cellular phone service. As such, I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether he has any plans to revisit and examine that area to ensure that His Majesty the King enjoys proper mobile network coverage.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, clearly, it is not our intention to inconvenience His Majesty the King. If the reception is erratic, we will dispatch engineers to check what corrective action should be taken so that the King can be able to connect with his people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Amutike was talking to Mr Anakoka.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mongu Central, you were not following, I saw you chatting.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, when responding to the hon. Member for Mongu Central’s question, the hon. Minister reported to this august House that the gap analysis revealed that there is no need for an extra tower but the feedback from the constituents is that there is a need to provide another mobile network tower. When does the hon. Minister intend to send a team to go and conduct a focused assessment that will guide the ministry on the next step?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, clearly, from the question asked by the hon. Member for Mongu Central, the issue is not so much on the need for a tower but erratic supply of reception to mobile cellular phones, which could be a need to look at our active equipment and make appropriate adjustments to that equipment, and not necessarily erecting a tower.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mongu Central, do you have another question?

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Minister has well answered the question.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Since the hon. Member for Mongu Central is satisfied with the responses, I do not think we should flog a dead horse. We can make progress.

If hon. Members have specific questions relating to their particular constituencies, please, engage the hon. Minister. He is always available to provide the necessary answers. In the meantime, we have work to do so we proceed.

RECORDED ACCIDENTS ON THE GREAT NORTH ROAD

316. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) to ask the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. how many road traffic accidents were recorded on the Great North Road from Kapiri Mposhi to Nakonde from September 2021 to August 2022; and
2. how many fatalities were recorded in the same period.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, in response to the question asked by Hon. Chanda, I wish to inform the House that the total number of road traffic accidents recorded along the Great North Road between Kapiri-Mposhi and Nakonde districts from September 2021 to August 2022 was 1,855, broken down as follows:

S/N      Type of Accident                            No. Accidents                No. of Persons Involved

1          Fatal traffic accidents                    241                                           324

2          Serious injury road                        393                                           767

            traffic accidents

3          Slight injury road traffic                337                                           521

            accidents

4          Damages only road traffic            884                                                0

            accidents

5          Total                                            1,855                                           1,612

Madam Speaker, out of this number, 241 were fatal traffic accidents, in which 324 persons were killed. 393 were recorded as serious injury road traffic accidents, in which 767 persons were seriously injured. 337 were recorded as slightly injury road traffic accidents, in which 521 persons were slightly injured, and 884 were recorded as damages only road traffic accidents.

Madam Speaker, the total number of fatalities in the same period was 324.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security for the response that has been given.

Madam Speaker, this is a road that some of us get to use every time we are going to our constituencies and issues of safety are critical. Does the Government plan to increase policing on this road? Foreign trucks, and especially foreign buses from Tanzania, use this road. When you see how they speed on this road, it is alarming. So, I would like to find out if there are any immediate measures the Government intends to put in place to increase policing on this stretch?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we are putting a number of measures in place in order to control road traffic accidents along this road. Amongst the measures that we are putting in place is sensitisation to schools and market places along the Nakonde/Kapiri-Mposhi Road. We have also engaged community radio stations to educate members of the public pertaining to road traffic regulations. We have also enhanced motorised patrols along this route. We have also set up speed traps along this road, and I know that members of the public complain pertaining to some of these measures that we have taken to ensure that we reduce the number of road traffic accidents. We are also prosecuting those who are involved in road traffic accidents.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, over 200 fatalities in a year on that stretch from Kapiri-Mposhi to Nakonde is too high. I know there is a law that prohibits trucks and buses from commuting along highways after 2100 hours. However, there is also an exception for trucks carrying perishables and, in the process, you will find that most of these accidents are due to trucks or buses. Does the Government think of repealing that law so that even trucks carrying perishables are also bound by the 2100 hours deadline, so no trucks whatsoever, be it on all the highways in all the provinces, move after 2100 hours?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I have taken note of the issue that has been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero. The jurisdiction of managing road traffic management falls under the Ministry of Transport and Logistics and that particular statutory instrument the hon. Member is referring to was enacted by the Ministry of Transport and Logistics. I will have a discussion with my hon. Colleague pertaining to that particular matter. We have received a lot of representation pertaining to this statutory instrument.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the statistics that the hon. Minister has given are actually worrying, but we cannot attribute the many accidents that we see on this road to the bad state of the road. Some of the road furniture are either not visible or they have been vandalised. Is the hon. Minister planning to engage his counterpart in the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development so they can engage the Road Development Agency (RDA), so it can start replacing some of the road furniture?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, my colleague may wish to note that the Government is rehabilitating this stretch of the road and as it does the rehabilitation, road furniture is part of the infrastructure that it is putting up on this road. I am also appealing to members of the public to stop vandalising road furniture on this road and any other road in the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, can we see increased allocation towards speed humps or speed cameras, as well as the introduction of speed reducers on this road. I think that would play a major role in bringing down the number of road accidents.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, road humps on an international highway are not an option but I assure my colleague that we are going to enhance speed traps along this road to ensure that motorists who are fond of over speeding are held accountable.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, looking at the hon. Minister’s statistics, he has not told us how many of those accidents where as a result of mechanical failure of the vehicles or human error.

Madam Speaker, the road from Serenje to Mpika to Chinsali is in a deplorable state. Most accidents happen because of potholes that just appear from nowhere. You might be –

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: This is a fact; we drive on that road. There are potholes almost the entire stretch and most accidents occur when trucks suddenly hit into those potholes. Does the Government have any programme to ensure that this stretch is attended to, especially when it comes to patching the potholes or dilapidated sections?

Madam Speaker: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, although that is now out of his ministry.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want to state that it is not possible for a pothole to appear from anywhere.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, that was on a lighter note. However, I want to inform my colleague that this stretch of the road is being rehabilitated, and my colleagues can confirm that substantial works have been done on it. Currently, there is a contractor on site.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chifubu, to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, the statistics that the hon. Minister has just furnished the House with, are quite worrying and very unprecedented. My question is that: Is the Government considering stiffening the law for would-be offenders? Some of the traffic rules lead to committing some crimes on the road. For example, we banned trucks moving in the night. However, some truck drivers drive in the night because they paid somebody and they were allowed to drive on the road, and other people receive bribes here and there. Is the Government considering stiffening the law so would-be offenders can desist from committing offences leading to these unprecedented statistics?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Please ensure that your cellular phones are on silent.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, it is my considered view that the law is adequate to punish those who are found wanting. Unfortunately, in most instances, the culprits may not be known because they are hit-and-run cases or those who are involved in the road accidents are the ones who cause them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I think we have exhausted this question. We can make progress.

First of all, may I welcome the hon. Member for Wusakile; we missed you. We last saw you when we were planting trees in your constituency. What happened? Were you not feeling well?

Laughter

Mr Kalobo: Madam Speaker, I have been here.

Madam Speaker: I did not see you then, welcome.

This shows that I care for all of you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Long-live, Madam Speaker!

Madam Speaker: Next question. The hon. Member for Lubansenshi.

Since the hon. Member is not around, the question lapses.

STALLED CONSTRUCTION OF THE BANGWEULU REGIONAL HOSPITAL

318. Mr Emmanuel Musonda (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)     why the construction of the Bangweulu Regional Hospital in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency has stalled;

(b)     when the construction works will resume; and

(c)     what the cost of the remaining works is.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, allow me before I respond to the question asked by Mr Emmanuel Musonda, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency, to inform the House that according to the reclassified health service delivery structures, we do not have regional hospitals, instead we have the following:

1. health post;
2. health centre, either rural health centre or urban health centre;
3. first level hospital, which is a district hospital;
4. second level hospital, which is a general hospital;
5. third level hospital, which is a teaching hospital; and
6. forth level hospital, which is a specialised hospital.

Therefore, the hospital that is being constructed in Lupososhi is a general hospital. The question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency is in three parts and our response is as follows:

Madam Speaker, the construction of the Bangweulu General Hospital in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency, in Lupososhi, stalled due to the lack of funding.

Madam Speaker, the construction works on the project will resume after the contract price adjustment negotiations are concluded.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the remaining works will be determined after the contract price adjustment negotiations are concluded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Emmanuel Musonda: Madam Speaker, in view of the celebrated debt restructuring, can the hon. Minister assure this House that the funds will be available to complete Lupososhi General Hospital.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, on a lighter note, I hope the hon. Member can, first of all, congratulate us for clearing the mess, which they left. However, on a serious note, since that was on a lighter note, let me respond –

Madam Speaker: The word ‘mess’ is unparliamentary. Maybe, replace it with a milder one.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: She was part of the mess.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, allow the hon. Minister of Health to answer the question.

 

Mrs Masebo: I replace the word ‘mess’ with mismanagement.

 

Let me now answer the question, Madam Speaker. First of all, we commend His Excellency the President, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the team, for a job well done. For a change, we can all say we are proud Zambians. Secondly, now that we have the debt rescheduled, which others on your left thought was an impossibility, …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: You were part of it!

 

Mrs Masebo: … we assure the nation, through the question, that the restructuring simply means that some resources can now be directed towards sector ministries such as the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Health. What this means, therefore, is that we will be able to complete a good number of unfinished infrastructure that again was left half done, even after money was given for the same. Hopefully when selecting, and looking at issues of equity Lupososhi will be among those that will be favoured.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Minister of Health.

The hon. Members on my left are saying that she was the chairperson of the elections. Hon. Members, politics is a moving target. You can also move to the other side if you want and vice-versa.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

_______

MOTIONS

FACILITATE AMENDMENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to facilitate the amendment of the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019 in order to introduce payment of allowances to some members of the Ward Development Committees (WDCs).

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kang’ombe: Allow me, first of all, Madam Speaker, to thank you once again for the opportunity to raise this Motion, and for authorising that this matter be presented before this august House.

Madam Speaker, there is a short history to the Motion that we are discussing today, and the short history is that previously, we used to have what we used to call the Resident Development Committees (RDCs). These RDCs used to help the local authorities in all the districts of Zambia to identify challenges in the community and then these challenges would be forwarded to the area councillor. From the area councillor, these challenges would go to the council. In 2019, Parliament decided to formalise this structure. Instead of having the RDCs, this august House in 2019, came up with a law called the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019. What the law did was to formalise this grouping called the WDC. Previously, there was no law which provided for the WDCs. It was basically up to the good will of each local authority to assemble people in the community to identify projects and submit them to the local authority.

After 2019, Madam Speaker, the mandate of the WDC was defined. So, today, if you check the Local Government Act of 2019, you find that it defines about six or seven functions of the WDCs. To simplify this conversation for those who are tuned in, which I am sure is not our conversation alone, but a conversation for the public, the WDC is where everything starts. If Kamfinsa Constituency today wants to submit projects to the provincial administration for approval under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), the first stage is for the WDC to meet. Simply put, if we are going to give out empowerment funds to the people in the constituency, the WDC first has to agree. If we are going to build a school in any constituency in Zambia, there must be a record that the WDC met and picked the following priorities.

What am I trying to say, Madam Speaker? The first point of decentralisation is actually the WDC. Now, if the WDC is the first point of decentralisation, it is the sub-structure that is supporting the work of hon. Members of Parliament, and it determines which projects have been submitted from the community and which ones are the priorities. If that is the basis for recognising the role of the WDCs, it therefore, follows that we must provide an incentive for them. We must provide an incentive that allows them to quickly convene, identify the projects, meet with the community as we do other work as hon. Members of Parliament and submit them to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Committee and consequently to the local authority for onward submission to the provincial administration. If that is the roadmap, and if that is what we have agreed for ourselves, it is important that we provide an incentive for them to be able to do the work that they are doing.

Currently, Madam Speaker, there is a restriction in the law. The current restriction in the law is that members of the WDC cannot be paid a sitting allowance. That is what is in the law. So, today, as I stand here, I am appealing to the Government to amend that. Currently, a Backbencher like myself cannot introduce an allowance to be paid because the Constitution of Zambia is very clear that any charge on the Consolidated Fund, any proposal that can be brought on a charge on the Consolidated Fund, can only come from the Government.

Our mandate today, the basis of my Motion today, Madam Speaker, is to ask the Government to come up with an amendment to allow for that restriction in the law to be amended. If you go to paragraph 4 of the schedule under the Local Government Act, you will see a restriction. So, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development today cannot wake up and just instruct local authorities to start paying members of the WDC because the law will not allow him.

Today, Madam Speaker, I recognise, and I am sure all of us do recognise that members of the WDC need an incentive for them to do their work professionally. They need an incentive for them to not attend to other assignments but focus on the primary objective of providing minutes, identifying the priorities of our communities and bringing those proposals to the respective sub-structures for approval.

Today, Madam Speaker, I bring this conversation to Parliament with only two objectives. We need to reward the people who are supporting the work of the Government. The Government is at three levels: there is the local authority and below the local authorities are the sub-structures called the WDCs. Considering that members of the WDCs are supporting the work that we are doing, today, I hope that we can appeal to the conscience of each one of us.

Madam Speaker, why should we pay a sitting allowance to those who are working at the CDF Committee, yet the people who are giving them the proposals and have to scrutinise all the applicants for skills training bursaries are not getting anything? We must create a fair society, a society that provides an incentive. I am not asking that a salary be introduced. I am simply saying that if members of the CDF Committee are drawing a sitting allowance, it simply means that even the people who are transmitting the list of project proposals, who have to meet to make sure that indeed a Peter Chilufya from a certain constituency is actually a resident in that area and is vulnerable, also deserve an incentive.

Madam Speaker, this, for me, is not a long conversation. It is a conversation about achieving decentralisation. How do we achieve decentralisation? It is by allowing the sub-structures which are called the WDCs to be motivated to perform their duties, the duties that I am sure we all recognise are very genuine, noble and necessary.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, the mandate to amend the Local Government Act rests with the Government. I wish to inform the Government that there is a restriction in the law. Paragraph 4 of the schedule of the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019, a law which was designed and approved by this august House, provides a restriction. Can we remove that restriction so that we can motivate our people to perform their duties diligently? Even as we sit here having this conversation, let us be mindful that they are people who have supported our work for the last two years, and they will continue supporting our work of identifying the priorities in our constituencies. So, this short conversation is about the need to amend the Local Government Act to provide an incentive for some members of the WDC. The people of Kamfinsa have submitted that on behalf of all the WDCs that are doing a very diligent job.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Menyani Zulu: Now, Madam Speaker.

Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Nyimba, to second the Motion ably moved by Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me say this is a very progressive Motion, which each and every hon. Member of Parliament who appreciates the work that the Ward Development Committee (WDCs) are doing, should support.

Madam Speaker, every programme the Government introduces needs the support of us hon. Members of Parliament. Therefore, the enhanced Constituency Development Fund (CDF) needs a lot of support from us hon. Members of Parliament. The owners of the CDF are the people in the respective wards and sections of our constituencies. The Government came up with a very good and progressive idea of enforcing the works of the WDCs, and since it came up with this idea, we need to support it. Members of the WDCs work in various wards. So, for us to achieve what we need, and for the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government to achieve what it wants to achieve, we need to support them.

Madam Speaker, others may wish to know why I am supporting the Motion. Constituencies like Mwinilunga and Nyimba have a radius distance of 40 km, and members of the WDCs travel such distances to convene and have a meeting. One ward is bigger than Lusaka District and members of the WDCs have to take information to the chairman at a certain stage. We give them nothing, yet they board a bus or hire a motor cycle when doing their work. Surely, do you expect them to do a good job? This will bring problems in our quest to implement projects with the increased CDF.

Madam Speaker, we have resources at district and constituency levels, yet we do not want to pay the owners of the money. We may not have to give members of the WDCs a salary but an amount that can at least enable them buy fuel for a motor cycle so they can ride to where the meeting is. At the moment, they sacrifice and use their own resources. Very few hon. Members of Parliament here today will tell me that when executive members of the WDCs are sitting, they never ask them for transport or food, unless those executive members do not sit, and it is the chairman who writes the report without including other sections of the ward. So, my prayer and my appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is that we see to it that we reduce the gap of misunderstanding between the WDCs and the Constituency Executive. In view of what is happening now, in my language we say that the other part is doing mwano, meaning that the others do not want to work because they think that one part is benefiting and the other part is not benefitting.

Madam Speaker, the people at the constituency level, who cover distances of around 15 km to 20 km, I mean those who cover 50 km, are given transport refund, and those within the central business district (CBD) who sit in the CDF Committee are paid allowances. Now, what of those who move longer distances? What is it that we can do for them? My appeal to the United Party for National Development (UPND) Executive is that if it wants the projects for the Zambian people to succeed and people to appreciate its tenure, let us see to it that the people in Kaputa are rewarded. The wives in Kaputa should be looked after. Failure to do that, we are doing ourselves a disservice.

Madam Speaker, let me not waste much of your time and that of the hon. Members in this august House because I know that 90 per cent of them agree with this Motion, unless those who have extra income away from what all of us get.

Mr Kambita: Question!

Mr Menyani Zulu: All of us here contribute and fund the movements of the members of the WDCs, unless you are somewhere I would not like to mention.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I beg to second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: For purposes of managing time, I do not know who is for and against the Motion according to the list. So, I just want to know if the Motion is opposed.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, ultimately, the Motion is opposed due to ill timing.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I have taken note. I have a list of debaters who are opposing the Motion. Can I have a list of three debaters who are in support of the Motion. I am doing this for purposes of managing time.

So, we will start with the hon. Member for Zambezi East.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for recognising me to contribute to the Motion, which is on the Floor of the House. At the outset, I would like to clearly state that I do not support it not because it is a bad idea. I would have supported it had it being timely, at a time when things were okay, because it is nice-to-have and, usually, anything that is nice-to-have comes after sorting out problems.

Madam Speaker, it is not too long ago that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came to this House to update us on the milestones we have achieved in reconstructing the economy, and we heard for ourselves the kind of situation in which we were in as far as the finances of the economy are concerned. Therefore, we cannot afford to have a nice-to-have situation at this moment.

Madam Speaker, we first need to cite the statutes for us to understand the subject we are debating here. The Ward Development Committee (WDC) was actually established through an Act of Parliament, the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019, and Section 36 of that Act established the WDC.

Madam Speaker, allow me to quote the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019 in terms of the establishment of this organ. Section 36 (1) says as follows:

“36. (1)           There is established in each ward a Ward Development Committee in the area of a local authority consisting of the following part time members appointed by the Town Clerk or Council Secretary …”

I am particularly interested in the phrase ‘part time members’. Part time is what they are; they are part time members. They are not full-time employees of either the council or the Government. Why are they part time? They are playing a role to compliment the Government’s effort by representing the communities within which they live, in disseminating the aspirations of the communities and what their Government will do for them. This is one way of devolving the planning of a country’s development to the lowest organs. Of course, this is part of the decentralisation process which other debaters will speak about in depth because for me, I am anchoring my debate on the financial aspect and the role that these cadres, so to speak, play.

Madam Speaker, what role do members of the WDCs play. Usually, they have meetings because they are domiciled within the communities of the ward. They know the aspirations of the people and they solicit for these things. They are a link between the council secretariat and the community. Therefore, they attend meetings and get submissions from the community, which they present to the council. Of course, the area councillor also attends these meetings because he/she is the one who officially attends the council meetings to present issues and has representation on the Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC). Therefore, members of the WDCs play a simple role. Yes, warranting some resources, is really a nice thing, but it is not crucial that these people should be paid.

One thing that you need to know is that, not too long ago, our colleagues brought a Motion here on the Floor of the House asking that we increase salaries for councillors. Now, before we could even think of what we would do with salaries for councillors, here we are, boom, we have the WDCs being floated here to be paid. Think about it, hon. Members. You see, we need to approach these things with reality. How many wards does this country have? There are in thousands. Even if we were to pay each person a K10, it is still a very big amount because there are so many wards in this country. Some constituencies have over twenty, twenty-three or twenty-four wards. Now, twenty-four wards, come to think about it. How many members does a WDC have?

Hon. UPND Member: Ten!

Mr Kambita: About ten. Now, if you multiply ten by twenty-five wards in a constituency, for argument’s sake, that is already 250 people, and that is only one constituency. If you multiply that by 156 constituencies, how many people would need to be paid, even if we were to pay them a minimum amount? I am just bringing in figures here. So, before we think of anything, we must first of all – you know in Lunda we have a proverb, which I will literally mention then translate, which says that asambilang’a kutala kung’a, henokanda wadikile, meaning you must first of all check on the level of your mealie meal in the bucket before you put water on the fire to cook nshima.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: So, here we are, we are grappling with a big debt, our mealie meal is still little, and we want to put a big bucket on the fire to cook nshima. Is that nshima really going to be reasonable? That would be very unreasonable of us.

Madam Speaker, I just wanted to give a realistic view at the issue at hand. It is not necessary for us to start thinking of these nice to have things. In future, yes, it is a welcome move. When the economy is doing well, why not support these people who are doing a noble cause? We would do that. As a decent Government, we think of the WDC members out there and respect the work that they are doing. However, as at now, we cannot afford to say that we put it in the law that we start paying them an allowance. Even in a home, when a child wants a play station, a responsible parent would not buy a play station five, yet there are no basic needs in the house like soap, food and the like.

Mr Nkombo: Children are still sleeping on the Floor.

Mr Kambita: It would not make sense. So, realistically, this is something that we cannot afford and that is why I do not support the Motion. Of course, it is painful to say that that is how we would want the situation to be; it is nice-to-have.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to add my voice on behalf of the people of Chama North, on the debate on this very important Motion. First and foremost, I thank the mover of this Motion, Hon. Kang’ombe, and the seconder, Hon. Zulu.

Madam Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion. Therefore, I think it is important for us in this august House to make progressive steps in ensuring that the Decentralisation Policy is effectively implemented.

Madam Speaker, decentralisation is key for the speedy development of this country, especially in rural areas which have received lopsided development since Independence. For decentralisation to be effective, I support this Motion, and there is a need to motive the gallant men and women in the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) who are doing a great job for this great country.

Madam Speaker, decentralisation has not started now. It started a long time ago. I remember that those days when I was at Chama Secondary School, we even had the Ministry of Decentralisation, which Dr Kenneth Kaunda had created. So, that is how important decentralisation is.

 

Madam Speaker, as other debaters have stated, rural areas are very vast. Our colleagues in urban areas compared to those in rural areas are totally different. It is very easy for members of the WDCs to move from one point to another in the constituencies in urban areas and to engage the people on the ground. However, in rural areas, the wards are too vast such that these colleagues cannot manage to go from one point to another. That is why it is important that we amend the Local Government Act and ensure that members of the WDCs are motivated to work harder. If these people boycott to do their work, it means that even the Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC) cannot meet and approve projects. So, that is the importance of the WDCs. However, they are not asking for a lot of money. What we must realise is that democracy is a costly undertaking; democracy is never cheap. So, if we are going to be looking at the cost aspect then I think we are missing it as a country.

Madam Speaker, if you read the guidelines, yes, it is true that members of the WDCs are part time. There is a difference between a part time worker and a volunteer. A volunteer is a person who is not paid but a part time worker is supposed to be paid. There are part time doctors, and part time workers working for companies, who are being paid. Therefore, I do not think we can say that because they are part time, these people cannot be given an allowance. I do not think that is correct.

Madam Speaker, apart from giving members of the WDCs an allowance, I strongly feel that we need to go even a mile ahead and empower them with bicycles. How much does a motor cycle cost, to ensure that our colleagues who are doing a noble job are able to move from one point to another and that the information which is coming to the WDCs is good information? If you look at the performance of most WDCs –

Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament should not bury their heads in the sand and say all is well. When we go around our constituencies, we find that members of the WDCs do not even have the capacity to identify projects. What we are saying is that these people should identify projects. You find that they do not even have the capacity to rank projects according to priority. Now, if you cannot build capacity in the WDCs, it will be very difficult for the Decentralisation Policy to actually bear fruits.

 

Madam Speaker, we are not asking for further resources from the Central Government. For example, the administrative cost of the CDF is 5 per cent, and the CDFC members including our colleagues from local authorities are paid from that amount. So, we are saying that instead of allocating only 5 per cent, we can adjust it to 7 per cent of the K28 million so that the WDCs are able to function effectively. We are not asking for more resources, no.

Madam Speaker, I am very confident that in the next few years, we will find that we may not even have many projects to implement and that is why I thank the former President, the late Dr Fredrick Chiluba, who actually introduced the CDF. I think he knew that by doing that, we would make sure that our areas are developed. So, really, we are not asking for too much. We are merely proposing that we adjust the 5 per cent possibly to 7 per cent or 8 per cent. I do not think that people are asking for too much. Indeed, it is a very sad development that our colleagues are against this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I, again, appeal to our colleagues on the right-hand side to rethink this issue because, believe me, if they shoot down this Motion, we are going to demotivate members of the WDCs. I am sure the WDCs not only in Mazabuka Central but in the respective constituencies in the whole country will be very much demotivated. So, it is my prayer that our colleagues will rethink this matter and ensure that at least, something is done to motivate the WDCs.

Madam Speaker, coming from a trade union background, I feel that we are not doing justice to our WDCs. As I earlier on said, when we say part-time, we are not saying these people cannot be paid anything. So, please, let us differentiate between a part-time worker and a volunteer.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I strongly support the adoption of this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I stand here to oppose the Motion. I also want to say that the previous speaker has misled the nation that there is no capacity in the Ward Development Committees (WDCs). The capacity is in inbuilt. Firstly, there are civil servants in those committees and that is capacity. Secondly, capacity is built all the time into the WDCs. So, I think what the hon. Member said was misleading.

 

Madam Speaker, on the issue of decentralisation, I think it is important to realise that the current decentralisation agenda is very different from that which you saw or heard, that was undertaken under the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government. That was a mixture of concentration and what you may call decentralisation that was mixed with party organs into the administration of the local Government. The current decentralisation agenda is different because this is devolution of functions from the Central Government to the local authorities, giving them authority, power and resources to implement projects that they feel would be able to enhance their standard of living at that level. So, again, the hon. Member misled this House and the nation.

 

Madam Speaker, the WDCs are doing a lot of work, and we agree with that. As hon. Members of Parliament, we feel that if our economic circumstances were better, we would have debated that we appropriate some resources for their remunerations, but as it is, I believe this country is still observing austerity measures. I think that under those circumstances, it is important to take things, step by step, before making decisions of that nature.

Madam Speaker, voluntary work in terms of project implementation is done everywhere in the world and Africa in particular. There are committees in Uganda and Rwanda providing services on a voluntary basis, and village committees work on the same basis as the WDCs. However, what Hon. Kambita said is very important. You need to look at the resources that you have before you embark on the expenditures. I think there is no need to approve an expenditure which you cannot fund. So, as UPND, we want to be cautious as we look at these things.

Madam Speaker, perhaps, let me advise hon. Members of Parliament to provide resources within the 5 per cent of the administration cost for things like paper and pens for the WDCs so that they are able to operate at that level. However, on the issue of allowances, I think let us give the Government time to clearly look at issues of austerity measures. I think we will get to a time when we will be able to look at the people who are at the front line of project implementation in our constituencies.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to add my voice to this non-controversial Motion.

 

Mr Menyani Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Petauke Central!

 

A point of order is being raised. Hon. Member for Nyimba, what is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on Hon. Samakayi, the Member for Parliament for Mwinilunga. He stated that a similar situation of people working voluntarily is happening in Uganda, but at the section level. However, he forgot to tell the nation that the chairman at the WDC level is paid and he is on salary. The Government even provides a motor cycle for that person. Is, therefore, Hon. Samakayi in order to mislead the nation and this House? My point of order is based on Standing Order No. 65(a).

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I am sure you had gone on a benchmarking tour with Hon. Samakayi so I do not know who heard what, and we were not there. Unfortunately, we are debating the situation in Zambia today. So, let us concentrate on the Zambian situation.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, once again, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to add my voice to the debate on this non-controversial Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing this Motion to be brought here so that we can debate and I thank the mover, Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, and the seconder nkhunzi yaku mawa, Hon. Menyani Zulu.

 

Madam Speaker, from the outset, I support this Motion, and I will state the facts I support it. Maybe, let me make it clear to some people who do not understand. As the first debater clearly said, we do not want to load-shed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning by giving him a lot of work, of looking for where to get this money.

Hon. Government Members: Load-shedding the hon. Minister?

Mr J. E. Banda: Yes.

Madam Speaker, in 1985 under –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, the hon. Members are not clear by you saying, load-shedding the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. We are not clear. What do you mean?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I mean that giving him a lot of work whereby he will not have where to get money; overloading him.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, in 1995, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government, – I am sure the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation will bear with me because he was under the same Government and he remembers very well – …

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: … under President Dr Fredrick Titus Chiluba, may his soul rest in peace, introduced the Slush Fund.

Mr Mposha: When was that?

Mr J. E. Banda: Yes, 1995.

Madam Speaker: It appears the hon. Member –

Mr J. E. Banda: This is my research and everyone is free to research so that they can come and debate. I want to set the record straight. In 1995, Dr Chiluba was President at that time …

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: … and under him, according to my research because I am a researcher, …

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: ... that is when the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) was introduced under the Slush Fund. The then President used to move with money called the Slush Fund and in 1995, hon. Members of Parliament complained that the President would move with cash, and that they did not move with cash. That is why –

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, what is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order in line with Standing Order No. 65, where the debater is required to be factual. The hon. Member for Petauke Central has alleged that I was part of the Chiluba Government without providing facts. My history in the Government is very clear that in 2001, I was an elected official; I was a councillor. The Government which was there then, was under President Mwanawasa, and I was never a councillor in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government.

Madam Speaker, I was Deputy Mayor of Lusaka and Mayor of Lusaka, and those are positions I was elected to in the Government. Now, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central in order to allege that I was a Government official in the Government of President Chiluba? Is he in order to drag me in his debate that I was a member of the MMD Government, as a Government official, under President Chiluba?

Madam Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, do not drag the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in your debate. I do not know whether it is love that you have for him, but please, do not drag him in your debate and also be factual in your debate. You may proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your guidance and I have heard. I am sure it is love, and I want water. Once he provides water in Petauke, I will be quiet.

Madam Speaker, when the CDF was introduced, it was K30,000 but it was later increased. The way technology is changing, is how the CDF has been changing. It was increased from K30,000 to K750,000. From K750,000, it was increased to K1.5 million. From K1.5 million, it was increased to K1.6 million. From K1.6 million, it was increased to K25.7 million.

Mr Nkandu: Ema researcher aba.

Mr J. E. Banda: From K25.7 million, it was increased this year to K28.3 million. So, you can see how things have been changing.

Madam Speaker, the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) are the ones who initiate the projects. Now, because of the increment of the CDF from K30,000 to K28.3 million, it shows that a lot of work from the Central Government has been transferred and decentralised to the constituencies and communities, down to the people, which means the resources are trickling down. Even the leadership is supposed to trickle down. Members of the CDF Committee (CDFC) are being paid and many members even get allowances and a salary monthly.

Hon. Government Members: From where?

Mr J. E. Banda: They are drawing the money from the local Government.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr J. E. Banda: From the council. You research. I am a researcher, I have told you. Ask the District Planning Officers (DPOs) –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Can we allow the hon. Member for Petauke Central to debate. If we have any rebuttals, we can do them in our debates. Let us allow him to debate. He said that he has researched. So, let us allow him to enjoy that information that he has acquired.

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you may proceed.

Mr Mposha: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Awe naimwe ba Minister. Lekeni apwishe.

Madam Speaker: There is another point of order from the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, again, I rise in accordance to Standing Order No. 65, where the debater who calls himself a researcher is required to be factual.

Madam Speaker, I do not know if you are also listening to what I am hearing from him. In his tabulation, he said that the CDF was at one point increased to K1.5 million. I do not know if there was any point where the CDF allocation was increased to K1.5 million. I think the last figures that we know was that the CDF moved from K1.4 million to K1.6 million per year, per constituency. Now, is this researcher, the hon. Member for Petauke Central, in order to mislead this House, himself and the nation at large that there was a time when the CDF was K1.5 million?

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

I think from his research, that is what he found. However, in the event that the hon. Minister has information to counter, he can rebut that information in his debate.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Quality! Researcher!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance. I am sure the people of Munali always send dramatists to this House. I sympathise with them.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, stick to your debate, please.

Mr J. E. Banda: I sympathise with them, but I am sure next time they will control things.

Madam Speaker: Stick to your debate, hon. Member. Stick to the Motion.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am saying that the CDFCs are drawing allowances from the 5 per cent of the K28.3 million, which is K1.415 million. This is a lot of money because it has been increased, unless they tell me that the CDF is still K1.6 million then we can say, no, we do not want the WDCs, who are initiating the projects. However, we need to appreciate them and we should learn as leaders that we should not do things to suit ourselves. We sit in the CDFCs and we are entitled to an allowance, but the WDCs who are project initiators are not paid.

Let us be fair guys because the people from your constituencies are watching.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, when hon. Members go back to their constituencies and sit in the CDFCs, they draw an allowance and again here at Parliament, they draw an allowance. So, let us be fair to the WDCs. Let the money trickle down to them. The money is for everyone.

Madam Speaker, some debaters said that in the WDCs, there are civil servants. If I am correct, in the WDCs, there is only civil servant, who is the secretary. So, I do not know where those debaters got their points from. I will enrol them in my research class so that they move together with me.

Madam Speaker, with those few –

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Wind up.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, with those few words, I support this Motion so that the resources trickle down. Let us not use other people for free when us leaders are enjoying.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

I am looking at time. It is already 1613 hours. So, I will only call one hon. Member to debate and the hon. Minister will come through to respond, and then we wind up.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving me chance to add my voice to the debate on the Motion.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion for the able manner in which he has moved the Motion, and the seconder for giving us the structure, to which we are now debating.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that all hon. Members of Parliament seated in here support Government programmes. In so doing, we ensure that development is taken to the people, and I always like the way the President comes out because he wants development to go closer to the people. He has always said that the people should decide for themselves what they want done in particular constituencies and wards.

Madam Speaker, I am in receipt of a document called a memorandum, written from the Office of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, instructing all councils –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Have you laid the document you are about to quote and refer to on the Table?

Mr Mutale: I have not, Madam Speaker, but it is public knowledge. It was distributed to all of us in here.

Madam Speaker: Well, I have not seen it myself. I do not know about it. You should have brought it to my office. As the person guiding the proceedings, I need to know what you are referring to. So, do not refer to a document that I am not aware of.

Mr Mutale: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, to put things to speed, there are Government workers who are on a salary at the provincial local Government level, and we were told to pay them K18,000 per constituency from the 5 per cent of our Constituency Development Fund (CDF). These are people who get paid from the Government coffers, and we are being instructed to pay them. I am wondering who should get money between the people doing the work at the Provincial Local Government Administration or the people in the wards? If I compare the two, I discover that the people in the wards are poorer than the people at provincial level, who at least are on a salary.

Madam Speaker, in our guidelines, we provided that the Ward Development Committee (WDC) would only sit four times in a year, meaning that even if allowances were to be paid, they would be very minimal. They would not even disturb anything from the CDF. The mover of the Motion made it very clear that we are not asking for any other additional monies on top of the money that we have. We give out 5 per cent of the CDF to councils for administration purposes. That is the money we are saying we should give part of it to our people who are doing a very good job at the ward level.

Madam Speaker, you can imagine – in fact, I apologise because I was part of the team that came up with the guidelines. I think we overlooked this matter. We only provide a realm of paper to this important organ of governance, but a realm of paper is only K250. Surely, members of the WDCs are doing a great job for this country, and even the President salutes these people every day. So, what I am trying to say is that we are not doing it the right way. For me, I would rather the K18,000, which goes to the Provincial Local Government Administration, is given to the people in the wards …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: …because they are poor, and they are providing a good service to us. Civil servants at the provincial level get salaries. Why do we not help the poor? In fact, the people who would have scored are those in the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government because they are the ones who would be saluted for introducing a good salary.

Madam Speaker, Chitambo is a rural constituency. If we were to pay members of the WDCs even K50 each, this would go a long way, and they will really appreciate the President for that. So, I plead with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to help the President on this matter so that he can be praised by the people.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning told us that we will be making a saving from the restructured debt. So, I know that from whatever savings we will be making, and if we add more, those people can be accommodated. I did mathematics, and considering the number of constituencies we have, the monies we are giving the Provincial Local Government Administration is a lot compared to what these people would even ask for. So, it is not too much to ask for something so these noble people can be motivated to work hard.

Madam Speaker, let me leave time for other hon. Members to debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you for leaving some time. However, the time is 1620 hours, and we are running behind schedule. So, I call upon the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to respond.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, let me thank my colleague, Hon. Kang’ombe, for exercising his right to bring a Private Members’ Motion. In his Private Members’ Motion, he is asking us in the Government to amend the Local Government Act in order to accommodate the payment of allowances, according to his wording in the Motion, to some members of the Ward Development Committees (WDCs). Just the word ‘some’ spoils the soup because it is discriminatory. If one were to ask: Who are these some among the ten? How do you arrive at the some among the ten? So, I find this Motion, while well intended, very defective because it seats right at the centre of discriminating against members who were chosen under an Act or legal framework which is very definitive.

Madam Speaker, the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019 provides for an integrated local system to give effective decentralisation of functions, responsibilities and services to local levels of the Government. Further, the Act is also definitive in Part 5, Sections 36 and 39, and it provides for the establishment and composition of the WDCs, which were previously Resident Development Committees (RDCs). In the fourth schedule of the same law, which was enacted under the previous Government’s watch and eye and the hon. Member himself quoted, Section 36 (8) (4) stipulates clearly that the members of the WDCs shall carry out work on a voluntary basis and shall not be entitled to any payment of allowances or fees, and that is what the hon. Member wants to be adjusted. The question that begs an answer is that: Why did they couch it in this manner at the time when governance was under their watch?

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Mr Nkombo: There was a reason and nothing has changed. As a matter of fact, Madam Speaker, nothing has changed apart from us now trying to make good of what went bad. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning two days ago came here to give us a synopsis of the actions, not prayer as Hon. Mtayachalo said “we pray that”. Prayer without action is nothing. The action has been delivered by protracted negotiations of restructuring the debt. Debt has choked this country leaving no fiscal space to even look at social programmes that affect the people whose aspirations and interests we are looking after.

Madam Speaker, the same honourable colleague of mine, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, brought a Motion which was a little bit lighter, where he was agitating that we improve the conditions of service for councillors. There are only 1,833 plus or minus councillors in this country –

Mr Kang’ombe interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Or was it Mr Mpundu, I beg your pardon. I think it was his colleague but they are in the same WhatsApp group, anyway.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: They brought the idea that we must remunerate the councillors and I will say what we said, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Lunte!

I am looking at time, and you have just come into the House. I am trying to wind up this debate. People have debated and the hon. Minister is delivering a policy statement from the ministry. So, let us allow him to do that without any interruption so that we wind up.

You may proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Nkombo: In response, Madam, to the quest to improve the conditions of service for honourable councillors, I said that this Government, under Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is the first to operationalise the Emoluments Commission, which was going to look into the plight of all workers including councillors. We were also very clear that much as we desire for the councillors to be remunerated better, the fiscal space was not there, and at an appropriate time when we fix things, we are going to consider doing that through the Emoluments Commission.

Again, Madam Speaker, in view of this Motion, it is President Hakainde Hichilema who walked the talk of actual decentralisation by devolving power and decision making from the centre, where he said there were big thieves, to the districts and sub-district structures to allow the people in the wards to make development plans for themselves. So, who are the beneficiaries of this decentralisation which is coupled with fiscal decentralisation of moving money of a magnitude of K28.3 million per constituency to the wards for their benefit? The people in the constituencies are now benefitting, and they decide on their own.

However, I am surprised to learn from the hon. Member for Chama North, Mr Mtayachalo, that the WDCs have no capacity. Let me tell you that most of the people in the WDCs are probably more educated than some of us here, and they have the capacity. I am surprised to learn from Mr Remember Mutale that these are poor people. I want to say to you that these people were elected based on their campaign to belong to the ward committee and on the capacity and promise they made to the very people who voted for them in order to look after their interests and aspirations. How come today, they are being deemed to have no capacity and to be poor? It is a misdirected argument from both hon. Members.

Madam, I think the best way to put it is that it is a good thing, to borrow words from the hon. Member for Zambezi East. However, you can only cut your coat according to your cloth. I am size fifty-six so you cannot make a suit which is a size forty-two for me. The idea is that let us give the Government chance, and my colleagues who had their chance and failed to seize and utilise it must watch us do our thing. Firstly, we need to recover and get the economy going in order to accommodate the very matters they are agitating for such as finding money to pay the WDC members who are ten in number. This can work after we have corrected everything.

Madam Speaker, it is haphazard to simply say we agree to pay some members of the WDCs because what the Member for Kamfinsa, Hon. Kang’ombe, is requesting for has a high potential of distorting the economy. That is what our colleagues did. They gave out contracts because it is in my – allow me to give an example before I resume my seat and we vote if we have to. In my ministry, and I have said this before, they awarded contracts worth K13 billion for road projects when they only had K1.2 billion. Where were they going to get the difference? The situation is on all fours here now. We are being asked to accommodate paying 18,533 WDCs members but from which budget line? Even if we change the law because it is our duty, where is the budget line or revenue stream going to come from when it is not accommodated for?

Madam Speaker, when WDC members went out to campaign, they knew very well that this was a voluntary undertaking. So not until such a time that we lift the economy that our colleagues damaged, will we manage to get space in the fiscus. What the hon. Member is asking for is like banging an open door with your head on the frame. We agree it is a good idea. The door is wide open, but the finances cannot permit us to undertake such. I think that if you insist that this is what you want to do, I will have no choice but to think that this is a populist Motion, and anything populist is short lived. That is how come the Patriotic Front (PF) Government in the history of this country, is the Government that has served the shortest time. We do not want to be like that ourselves …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … because Mr Hichilema has indicated that we must be –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, stick to the Motion. We are one people. They had their time. It is your time also.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, in our oneness, I would like our friends who are moving such Motions that have the potential to cause distortion to get the contagiousness of our methodical ways of doing things, and not work as a wash and wear or a sale by date Government. We do not want to be a sale by date Government. We want to look back and actually point at deliverables, and say we delivered this and that. We cannot start a programme that we will fail to achieve. In short, we want to pay the WDCs, the councillors and everybody who is doing work for the Government but only when we will have the capacity to do that. At the moment, we do not have. Allow us to go into debt restructuring with the private lenders, and come back to this House and report what our colleagues failed to do and then we will all be laughing to the bank.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I am not taking any points of order at this time. Can the hon. Member for Kamfinsa wind up debate. We are running out of time.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, allow me, once again, to thank you most sincerely for having permitted this public conversation about how best we can motivate members of the WDC. I will resist the temptation to respond to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Let me however put it on record, Madam Speaker, that members of the WDC according to the regulations are only supposed to meet four times in a year. So, technically speaking, the current financial space does not require us to bring any further additional money into the space. There is already money that is available. What is restricting this position are basically the regulations in the law. There is a restriction in the Local Government Act but if that restriction was not there, I am very certain that the Government would actually implement this as latest as tomorrow.

Madam Speaker, the WDCs are part of us today and they will be part of us tomorrow. This is not about us who are seated here. It is about units of the Government that should help us implement Government programmes.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely and I hope that those whose conscious I have spoken to will support this idea of giving an incentive to members of the WDC through the current fiscal space, which in my view, allows for the Government to implement what I am proposing.

As I conclude, Madam Speaker, I hope that the Government from today will relook its current position. I am very certain that our colleagues have spoken from a point of ignorance.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mulenga interjected.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: The word ‘ignorance’ is too strong. Find another word to use.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘ignorance’ and replace it with lack of information.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. PF Members called for a division.

Question that this House urges the Government to facilitate the amendment of the Local Government Act in order to introduce payment of allowances to some Members of the Ward Development Committees put and the House voted.

Ayes– (36)

Mr Ackleo Banda

Mr Allen Banda

Mr J. E. Banda

Mr Chala

Mr Chibombwe

Dr Chilufya

Ms Chisenga

Mr E. Daka

Mr J. Daka

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Amb. Kalimi

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kang’ombe

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Mr Lubusha

Mr Lungu

Ms Mabonga

Mr Mabumba

Mr Mtayachalo

Ms Mulenga

Mr Mundubile

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Emmanuel Musonda

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwanza

Mr Mwila

Ms Nakaponda

Mr P. Phiri

Ms Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Simumba

Mr E. Tembo

Mr Menyani Zulu

Noes– (65)

Mr Amutike

Mr E. Banda

Mr Chikote

Mr Chilundika

Mr Chinkuli

Mrs Chinyama

Ms Halwiindi

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Kabuswe

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kandafula

Mr Kanengo

Mr Kapala

Mr Katakwe

Mr Kolala

Mr Lubozha

Mr Lufuma

Mr Lumayi

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Mrs Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Moyo

Mr Mposha

Mr Muchima

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Mulaliki

Mr C. Mulenga

Mr Mulusa

Ms Mulyata

Ms Munashabantu

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Musumali

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mrs Nalumango

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkandu

Mr Nkombo

Mr Nkulukusa

Eng. Nzovu

Mr P. S. Phiri

Mr Samakayi

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simushi

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig-Gen. Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayali

Abstention – (0)

Question that this House urges the Government to facilitate the amendment of the Local Government Act in order to introduce payment of allowances to some Members of the Ward Development Committees put and negatived.

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

ISSUE LIFETIME DIPLOMATIC PASSPORTS TO FORMER STATE OFFICE HOLDERS

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central. I beg to move that this House urges the Government to issue lifetime diplomatic passports to former state office holders.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, let me begin by thanking you for giving me this opportunity to move this Private Members’ Motion urging the Government to issue lifetime diplomatic passports to former state office holders. At the outset, let me mention that this Motion aims to secure diplomatic privileges and immunities for all former state office holders who served in various Government portfolios.

Mr Speaker, for the avoidance of doubt, I will refer to former state office holders as those persons who once held the Office of the President, Vice-President, Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Members of Parliament and Ministers. This should include those described under Article 266 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, as hon. Members are aware, the issuance of diplomatic passports is a function which is performed by the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security in accordance with Section 6 (2)(a) and (b) of the Passport Act No. 28 –

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I apologise to my colleague, the hon. Member for Petauke Central, for this interjection. I am rising on a point of order that sits on what I believe must be a convention, rather than anything contained in the Standing Orders. Having been a Member of this House for a very long time, it has been an accepted convention that when there is any subject discussing hon. Members of Parliament, it should be done in camera and should not be on air; that is what I know.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I stand to be corrected, but if I am right, would we therefore be in order to discuss ourselves through this Motion while being live on radio? Again, like I said, I stand to be corrected by the Clerks-at-the-Table.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you. Give me a moment as I try to get expert advice from the Clerk. I will get back to you.

Mr Kafwaya walked to the back and chatted with other hon. Members.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, lately, you have become very active.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You like moving from one –

Hon. Government Members: He is campaigning!

Mr Kafwaya walked back to his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, thank you for your timely advice. However, this is a public issue that goes beyond the current hon. Members of Parliament. It is a Private Members’ Motion, meaning that it has to be debated openly, and not in camera.

May the hon. Member for Petauke Central proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. From the outset, let me mention that this Motion aims to secure diplomatic privileges and immunity for all former state office holders who served in various Government portfolios. For the avoidance of doubt, I will refer to former state office holders as those persons who once served or held the Office of the President, Vice-President, Speaker, Deputy Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers. This should include those described under Article 266 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia –

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I just want to seek your guidance on this Motion based on the conventions and traditions of the House. The mover of the Motion is now introducing something totally different. He is talking about conferring immunity, which is not in the Motion, instead of debating the passports. Immunity is something else. When you confer immunity, you are telling the person who is given immunity that he/she cannot be prosecuted. He is bringing something totally different.

Mr J. E. Banda: It is for your own good.

Mr Mwiimbu: No. I mean it is different.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Leader of the Opposition, that is where the noise is coming from, apparently. So, let us observe silence.

 

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, stick to the Motion and debate accordingly. Avoid bringing issues that are not relevant to our Motion. Avoid contradicting yourself. You can proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also thank the hon. Minister for that notice. I am sure it was a typing error by the –

Hon. Member: Researcher.

Mr J. E. Banda: No, no. I am sure it was a typing error. My apology for that.

Mr Speaker, this should include those described under Article 266 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, among others, and state office holders with diplomatic passports who often travel abroad. The Zambian Government has over the years shown its discretion by issuing diplomatic passports to some selected former state office holders like former Heads of State, Speakers and Judges just to mention a few. However, the current legislative framework requires that majority of the former state office holders cease to enjoy diplomatic privileges upon expiry of the term of office or appointment.

Mr Speaker, in view of this requirement, their diplomatic passport should be surrendered for cancellation in accordance with Section 13 of the Passport Act No. 28 of 2016. In their place, ordinary passports are issued to former state office holders, which makes it like moving from high cost to chintu bwingi, which is a very demoralising thing.

Mr Speaker, while the Government may have its own reason for withdrawing diplomatic passports from former state office holders –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, we are in the House and it has rules. You just introduced words that only yourself understand. What is chintu bwingi?

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I meant that former hon. Ministers are only recognised when they die. That is when they are accorded a state funeral. Why can we not recognise them whilst they are still alive with a diplomatic passport? That is what I meant.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: That is chintu bwingi now?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You may proceed, but avoid using words that you cannot explain properly or you cannot translate into English. You can continue.

Mr J. E. Banda: While the Government may have its own reason for withdrawing diplomatic passports from former state office holders, I am of the view that the people who once served this country should not lose privileges as a way of thanking them for the service they did to this country. We should not only remember them when they are no longer there. Let us remember them whilst they are still alive. If a former state office holder is sent outside the country, you will find that the respect he will be given in that country is not the same as the respect he will be given when he has a diplomatic passport.

Mr Speaker, all I am asking this House to do is thank the former Vice-Presidents, former hon. Ministers and former hon. Members of Parliament for the service they have rendered to this country. They leave their families home and come to Lusaka to work for the people. They were here in this House to make laws for our country. Why can we not appreciate them for the service they rendered to this country?

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, let me just say I beg to move this Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Quality!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Menyani Zulu: Now, Mr Speaker.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, this Motion is very progressive, and in seconding and supporting it, I would like to look at the hon. Members of Parliament who are here. I am looking at the hon. Members of Parliament who have been here for the last fifteen years serving this country. Some of them have served this country with all their energy.

Mr Speaker, when I look at our setup today, some of the things we do, I wonder what we think. You may wish to note that when the Vice-President leaves offices, she will cease to have a diplomatic passport. In that diplomatic passport, it is written ‘The Vice-President.” There will be another Vice-President so there cannot be two Vice-Presidents in one country. So, he/she will go back to having an ordinary passport.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that all of us seated here, when our tenure of office ends, regardless of how long we have served this nation, and how energetic we were when serving this nation, that little respect we have under the diplomatic passport will cease. The simple thing I am talking about here is that let us respect our leaders from here. No one is going to respect you as hon. Members of Parliament here if you do not respect yourselves. No one is going to recognise that a certain person was the hon. Minister responsible for sport when he leaves office. You know how quickly some people with faint hearts die when they lose the privileges they have. It is very simple. It is because some of them here have even forgotten how to put their passport at the immigration desk to be checked. This happens. So, my plea to this House is that let us not look at the political party we belong to. I do not belong to any political party and neither does the mover of the Motion belong to any political party. What we are saying here is for the betterment of everyone.

Mr Speaker, one of the highest offices we have in this country is the Ministry of Justice and the hon. Minister of Justice superintends over the people in this ministry. However, when they leave office, they keep their diplomatic passports and they have better privileges than the Minister who superintends over them. What is it that we do to ourselves as a country? It is not only about hon. Members of Parliament. It is also about the people in security wings and the military. Why should somebody who was a general when he retires, go back to having an ordinary passport? These are the things we should start – we should start respecting ourselves and those who served this country.

Mr Speaker, a good number of people are sent to different high-level discourses across this continent. The House may wish to note that this country is highly respected out there, being a beacon of peace. A good number of people from Zambia, when attending an international conference, are given respect for merely being Zambian. So, why can we not give these people diplomatic passports for a life time? Yes, I know that from 100 groundnuts, one might be bad. So, a diplomatic passport that is misused should be revoked. The Act, on how to revoke that passport, is already there. My plea to the Executive and the majority political party here, which happens to the United Party for National Development (UPND), the ruling Government, is that people made mistakes, and they should not make those mistakes. Let us see to it that –

Mr Speaker, permit me to mention a name and, please, forgive me for doing that. I will speak about somebody who cannot beat me, the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: If he left office today, tomorrow –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, we are not allowed to debate ourselves.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. However, let me say that, if the Front Benchers left office today, they would go back to having ordinary passports. It is my plea that even out there, we cannot only have – The Vice-President is a President in waiting because she is the running mate to the President. Now, as the running mate, she was elected Vice-President and that is constitutional. So, why can she not be given a life time diplomatic passport? We have Presidents today – I challenge anyone to tell me or maybe the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security may have more details because he superintends over the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, if there is any former Vice-President with a diplomatic passport. If there is, thank you so much for that.

Mr Speaker, my plea is that let us respect ourselves, because respect starts from here. We have to accord our military personnel and security agencies respect today, and I do not think this is too much to ask.

Mr Speaker, let me leave time for others to contribute. I second the Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I thought you were advocating for recognition. You are advocating for respect, on the contrary.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, before I support the Motion, let me just put a few ideas forward regarding this very important Motion.

Mr Speaker, firstly, let us understand our democratic systems, systems through which we, as leaders, get elected. That is where the problem I think begins from. In many countries, particularly developed countries, and that is not to undermine ours, it is not everyone who can reach the level that a number of us have reached, and I will cite China. In China, for one to become a member of the National People’s Congress, one needs to prove oneself in so many facets, apart from one’s record, integrity, academic qualifications, personal life and family life. Furthermore, one’s contribution to the nation is what automatically qualifies one to be bestowed with this important document.

Mr Speaker, do we occupy these positions in a similar manner? That is where the problem starts from. Should our democratic system change to meritocracy? Meritocracy will sieve at the point of entry into leadership. Systems will check to see if you are fit to hold public office before you even contest. Probably, this is one of the reasons we are seeing many happenings even in the west, where you hear systems trying to block those whom they know are not fit to hold public office.

Mr Speaker, much as we can advocate for a diplomatic passport, which I have to mention I support, how many former hon. Ministers will be able to use diplomatic passports after they leave office?

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Where will they go? Where will they get resources to travel?

Mr Speaker, if we are to check statistically, you will discover that if there are twenty-eight, only two will be able to use those passports in a year or two, maybe, with the exception of a few.

Mr Mabeta: Ndalama balibe.

Mr Mung’andu: No, this is how it should be. So, we might just be crying for something or trying to avoid something that will not even be an issue. What we should be discussing here is strengthening our institutions of governance in terms of the quality of leaders. One thing I have discovered in this country is that it is not necessarily the best who are chosen to sit in front at times; you just have 2 to 3 per cent, and this is historical. However, this is what has led to what we are as a country.

Do you want this country to actually be rewarding the west in the long run? The answer is no. So, even among ourselves we need parliamentary reforms that will identify hon. Ministers who are outstanding, for example, the way the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has just demonstrated. He needs to be rewarded.

Hon. PF Members: Praise singer.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I think –

Mr Mung’andu: It is just an example, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon Member, I think you are diverting from what you supposed to debate on. You are not allowed to bring hon. Members into context. You are now trying to evaluate people here. You can continue but avoid doing that.

Mr Mung’andu: Well noted. I am not praise singing anyone, colleagues. I was just giving an example.

Mr Speaker, my submission is that, much as we are advocating for diplomatic passports, we should come up with a system. We cannot just say everyone should be given a diplomatic passport after leaving office as I said. We can be given an option. There are those of us who are Backbenchers and will never be Ministers but would also want to get diplomatic passports if need be. However, there are others who would not be interested because diplomatic passports come with their own restrictions. Get it from me. You can have a diplomatic passport and when you travel, they will check you wherever you are going. This is a fact. When you go to China, you will not easily move from one town to another if you have a diplomatic passport. You have to be cleared.

Amb. Kalimi: Ah!

Mr Mung’andu: These are facts. That is what happens. You are likely to become under ladder. Others would want to live a private life.

Mr Speaker, as I support this Motion, I submit that we need to have an option because the Motion says all former hon. Ministers and hon. Members of parliament but we can make it optional. Those who would want to get a diplomatic passport should be able to maintain it but those who would want to live a private life, and not be recognised as they travel can do so.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I support my brother for coming up with such an initiative and just add that, at time, as hon. Members of Parliament, we are our own enemies.

Ms Mulenga: Like you are doing.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: We make laws. Why not legislate if possible, the way we are –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is a point of order.

Mr Mabeta: Mung’andu, rebel leader!

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion that has been –

Mr Kafwaya: Ah, it is a point of order.

Interruptions

Ms Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is a point of order but kaili.

Mr Mwiimbu: On whom?

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Hon. Mung’andu is still debating.

There are still other people who have not yet debated.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, Hon. Kafwaya. There was a point of order there that was dropped and all the debaters dropped, and then the hon. Minister indicated and I called upon him.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Hon. Mung’andu is debating but he was interrupted.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Mung’andu finished debating.

Ms Mulenga: No!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: He finished.

Interruptions

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: He concluded.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Kafwaya: Concluding and finishing are two different things. Do not force him to finish.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Kafwaya, you can continue.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya rose.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Oh, Hon. Mung’andu.

Hon. Kafwaya, you are trying to make my work very difficult.

Mr Kafwaya: Ah!

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu rose.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Wait. That is why sometimes, I chase some of you.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Mung’andu continue. I told you that there was a point of order that was dropped and then Hon. Mung’andu said that “as I conclude”.

Mr Kafwaya: Eh!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, at that point–

Mr Kafwaya: You thought!

Mr Mung’andu: Well guided, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I have no objection to this Motion so that those hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament who would want to get diplomatic passports, which they will just keep in their homes and will at times not use, can get them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as I rise to debate this Motion which was ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba, I want to bring to the attention of this august House that when I became a Member of Parliament in 2001, hon. Members of Parliament were not entitled to a diplomatic passport. That is a fact. What we did was to make a representation to the Standing Orders Committee that confers rights and obligations on hon. Members of Parliament. That should have been the most appropriate way of dealing with this matter, but because it has been debated, I will respond as follows.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the Private Members Motion “issue life time diplomatic passports to former state office holders”, moved by Mr Emmanuel J. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Parliamentary Constituency. I also thank the hon. Member for moving the Motion. It is a demonstration of the desire we have as a country to continue recognising the contribution of former state bearers.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security has considered the Private Members Motion “issue life time diplomatic passports to former state office holders”, moved by the hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, which is responsible for the administration of the Passport Act has already initiated the process to amend the Passport Act No.28 of 2016 to among others, include provision that will provide for categories of former state office bearers who may retain diplomatic passports after their tenure of office in recognition of the services rendered to the nation. In this regard, the Motion is appreciated but let me hasten to state that the process has already commenced and we are dealing with it.

Mr Speaker, diplomatic passports are issued in accordance to the provisions of Part III, Section 5 to Section 7 (2) of the Passport Act No. 28 of 2016, and as guided by Cabinet Office Circular No. C04/1/1 of 10^th May, 2000 and they can be withdrawn in accordance with Section 11 (3) of the same Act.

Mr Speaker, the Passport Act under Section 7 (2) provides as follows:

          “(2)      a diplomatic passport may be issued to -

1. a Zambian diplomat accredited to a foreign country and the diplomat’s spouse; and
2. such other persons as the minister may prescribe.”

Further, Section 11 (3) provides for withdraw of the diplomatic passport once the purpose for which it was issued ceases to exist as follows:

“(3)      A diplomatic passport shall be withdrawn if the purpose for which the diplomatic passport was issued ceases to exist.”

Currently, the only categories of individuals, persons and former state office holders entitled to retain their diplomatic passports upon the expiry of tenure of office are:

1. former Republican Presidents;
2. former Chief Justice; and
3. former Speaker of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, you may have noted that currently, the current Vice-President is the running mate, but if in an event she ceases to be Vice-President, under the current law, she is not entitled to a diplomatic passport, unless I use my discretion to confer the passport on her. There is no right.

Mr Speaker, to remove ambiguity and arbitrary decisions surrounding categories of former state office bearers allowed to retain diplomatic passports following the expiry of tenure of office, the Government will enshrine this in the law whose amendment process has commenced. This will provide guidance with regard to decisions on administration of diplomatic passports and strengthen legal framework covering the administration of diplomatic passports.

Hon. Colleagues, this provision of the law of discretion was abused and even individuals who did not qualify to hold diplomatic passports …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … were given diplomatic passports, which should not be allowed. Sometimes discretion can be abused, and that is why – We recall that Christians of somebody and other individuals were given diplomatic passports. That should not be allowed. This is why this responsible Government is coming up with a law so that those who are entitled to have diplomatic passports after leaving office will be clearly indicated and those who should be conferred with diplomatic passport should be clearly stated.

I can also state, Mr Speaker, without fear of any contradiction that some chiefs were given diplomatic passports while others were denied. That is why I am saying discretion should not be abused.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: What I am saying is that if we state for argument’s sake that a chief is entitled to a diplomatic passport, all chiefs should be given.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: We should not only confer diplomatic passports to chiefs who are in your favour. That should not be done.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that we will bring a Bill, and once this Bill is brought, I would like hon. Colleagues to support whatever changes we are going to make. I also urge hon. Members here to make their representations through the Standing Orders Committee. We are constrained sometimes to debate because now we are debating ourselves.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to thank the debaters.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Researcher!

Mr J. E. Banda: Mr Speaker, let me first thank the seconder, the Member of Parliament for Nyimba, Hon. Menyani Zulu, nkunzi ya kumawa.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Meaning.

Mr J. E. Banda: A bull from the East and a good researcher.

Laughter

Mr J. E Banda:  Mr Speaker, let me also thank the people who have debated, the hon. Member for Chama South, Hon. Mung’andu, for the good debate, and the hon. Minister for the good guidance. I am sure everyone has heard the guidance, which all of us should follow. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Chama South said, you cannot start thanking people who have never done anything leaving out people who served this country. The former hon. Member of Parliament and Deputy Speaker would sit in that Chair and would not go anywhere. He would just drink water and look at the walls and then, we should come and thank him when there is something. No. So, let us learn to support each other.

With those few remarks, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kalulushi, avoid debating whilst seated.

Ms Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I was just indicating.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: They are all the best; they are deserving. I mean they perform collectively and that is why they are achieving so much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNANCE, HOUSING AND CHIEFS AFFAIRS

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs for the Second Session of the Thirteen National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 21^st June, 2023.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Samakayi: Mr Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 198, your Committee considered a topical issue entitled ‘the Review of the Implementation of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) in Local Authorities’.

Mr Speaker, considering that hon. Members have read the report, allow me to comment on some of the salient matters ascertained from your Committee’s engagement with various stakeholders on the topical issue.

Mr Speaker, one of the essential findings of your Committee affecting the implementation of the IDPs is that the Constituency Development Fund Act No. 11 of 2018 is not directly linked to the identification of projects for funding to the development priorities contained in the IDPs. Your Committee further observes that without this linkage, the IDPs risk becoming an academic exercise. In addition to this, it further poses the risk of impending the coherent and comprehensive implementation of the priority programmes in the IDPs, which may consequently lead to the misuse of funds. In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that the Constituency Development Fund Act be urgently amended to directly link the IDP projects to the CDF so that the developmental aspirations in the IDPs are realised.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observed with great concern that most local authorities did not have their IDPs approved. Your Committee learnt through its interactions with the stakeholders that only eleven districts from the 116 districts had their IDPs approved. Your Committee observed that this was affecting the implementation of the projects outlined in the IDPs documents as councils did not have a legal backing to implement these projects. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, must urgently work on the lengthy IDP approval process, which is hindering the implementation of the IDP Project. Furthermore, your Committee learnt that there is a negative attitude on the part of some traditional leaders who do not co-operate with local authorities when allocating land and also when expected to give consent to local authorities to use customary land for implementation of projects once identified.

In light of this, Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Government should put in place deliberate programmes to sensitise traditional leaders on the importance of extending a level of participation to local authorities when allocating land. This will enable traditional leaders to allocate land in a more systemic and geographic conscious manner. Your Committee notes that this will be achieved through a consultative process with traditional leaders, on the importance of the IDPs in developing their respective areas and the country as a whole.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further recommends that the Executive in collaboration with the local authorities should make conscious efforts to emphasise to traditional leaders the significance of involving planners when identifying areas where buildings should be developed to avoid disasters. Your Committee also recommends that efforts have to be put in place to ensure that traditional leaders fully participate in the development and implementation of the IDPs.

Taking everything into account, Mr Speaker, allow me to place on record the gratitude of your Committee to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. Your Committee also wishes to thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Mabonga: Now, Mr Speaker.

Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to second the Motion. I also thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Newton Samakayi, the Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga and the Chairperson of the Committee, who has ably moved the Motion.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion has highlighted most of the findings in the report, and I will just highlight a few issues that we picked up as we undertook the benchmarking.

One of the issues, Mr Speaker, that came out is the lack of capacity of the Ward Development Committees (WDCs).

Mr Mutale: So, there is no capacity.

Laughter

Ms Mabonga: Yes, and this is the issue, Mr Speaker, that we are just from debating on the Floor of the House.

The finding in the report, Mr Speaker, is that the WDCs lack adequate, financial, technical and infrastructure capacity needed to contribute effectively to the development and implementation of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs). Therefore, your Committee recommends that there is a need to increase and develop the capacity of the WDCs because they are very significant in the entire process of the IDP. Your Committee further recommends that motivation of the WDCs be increased by enumerating them with a considerable allowance for them to fully participate in not only identifying the core issues in the communities, but also the implementation process of the identified projects. Your Committee is of the view that motivating the WDCs would encourage and support the directions given to them by the councils in relation to the development of the IDP and subsequently the implementation of the projects contained in the document.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, avoid reading.

Ms Mabonga: Most obliged, Mr Speaker, and I will continue.

The second point, Mr Speaker, is the high staff turnover. There are frequent transfers of officers in the local authorities which greatly affects the implementation of the IDPs because the new officers find it difficult to adapt to the new environment and the traditional authorities present in the areas. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the transferring of personnel should be done in a systematic manner so as to preserve institutional memory, but at the same time deal with the challenge of inertia that was mentioned as one of the reasons officers turn to be transferred. Your Committee further recommends that officers should be allowed to complete or see to it that plans are completed before they are moved.

The other point that I want to allude to, Mr Speaker, is the –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, avoid reading.

Interruptions

Ms Mabonga: I will avoid the temptation of responding, Mr Speaker. Thank you so much.

Mr Speaker, the IDP is not popular in the communities. Further, it is not appreciated by members of the community, and as a result, it is not being popular. Your Committee recommends that the IDP be more pronounced, especially by the districts that already prepared their IDPs. Your Committee further recommends that programmes and platforms such as media advertising should be put in place and used for local authorities to inform the communities and the public at large about the importance of the IDPs and how their unitary efforts help enhance development in the respective communities and the nation as a whole. Your Committee further recommends that councils should enhance their responsibility of interpreting the technical information related to the IDP, to the members of the community so as to aid them in understanding the IDP document at their level.

The fourth and the last point, Mr Speaker, is that there is a poor stakeholder engagement. Your Committee observed that there is poor stakeholder engagement in the development and implementation of the IDP, as the IDP is viewed as a council document or a local authority document. Your Committee recommends and urges the Government to ensure that departments from all line ministries are brought together by the heads of the ministries to work together and play their roles in aiding local authorities with developing the IDPs. Your Committee further recommends that the Executive should implement programmes that will be used to sensitise stakeholders on the importance of their participation in the development of IDPs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I put the question, the question is that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs on the Review of the Implementation of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) in Local Authorities for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 21^st June, 2023. As many are of that opinion say aye.

Hon. UPND Members: Aye!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Sorry, I think there was a typographical error in the document. The documents were not properly prepared. I followed the script, so that is how the mistake came up. Any further debate? The Leader of the Opposition.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sorry about that technical error.

Mr Speaker, I wish to support the report and just add a few words to it. When you look at the report, it highlights some of the challenges that were encountered, and these were to do with the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Mr Speaker, many a time, we have argued this point on the Floor of the House. We believe that the end point is really development. The other channels are vehicles that are to be used to arrive at that development.

So, our view is that we maintain the CDF in its current form and be able to activate, maybe, what you may call a district fund, which can be managed by the District Development Co-ordinating Committee (DDCC). The capacity that you would want to see in the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) may be very difficult to achieve. You are looking at a ward and its members coming up with plans for their ward. Now, to achieve an IDP, from that point of view, becomes difficult. However, if you look at the capacity that resides in the DDCCs, they consist of planners, engineers and everybody else, meaning that the strategic plan for the district is held by that committee. So, in case you would want to increase the allocation of the CDF, the proposal would be that that increase can actually sit at the district level. The results will still be the same because if we tried to coerce the WDCs to fall into the IDPs, we are ideally defeating the original purpose of the CDF.

Mr Speaker, under the Constituency Development Fund Act, we gave power to the lower structures, the substructures, to decide what they would want to see in their wards. There would be no comparative advantage between one ward and the next. However, if there was funding at district level through the DDCCs, then it would be easier to attend to certain projects that are connected or to create synergies around the district. So, if you look at the overall strategic plan for the district, information is collected at the district level and submitted to Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committees (PDCCs) and finally, I think it ends up at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, at the National Development Co-ordinating Committee (NDCC).

So, that is the structure through which you can achieve the IDP. It becomes very easy because through that plan, it means budgeting is actually following this plan that is approved at the national level, going down to the province and down to the district. However, if we amended the Constituency Development Fund Act, in any case, we would still have the same problem, Mr Speaker. We will not be able to control individual wards or whip them into thinking like the next one because we already gave them the power to decide what they want such as a 1×3 classroom, and so on and for forth. So, the point I am trying to drive at is that let us draw a distinction.

Mr Speaker, the proposal I am laying on the Floor of the House is what we found in Kenya. I was actually told – I do not know whether it is Kenya that got the idea of the CDF from us or the other way round, but the Kenyans have gone further, and they actually have a district fund. So, the Member of Parliament and his/her WDC have their own programmes at constituency level, and they have a district fund through which the Central Government directs development in a co-ordinated manner. So, it becomes easy to implement the IDP.

Let me give an example, Mr Speaker. If, for instance, the Ministry of Health wanted to acquire ambulances, as it were, it would be very easy to give that directive to the DDCCs and not necessarily the CDF Committee because in the CDF – yes, ambulances are important and we have all accepted that, but you will agree with me that buying an ambulance in Mporokoso this year may not be our priority because the old one is just working well.

Mr Speaker, the point I am trying to deliver is that the directives that are coming from the Central Government can easily be achieved through the DDCCs and the District Commissioner (DC’s) Office, and not what is happening now where the WDCs are presenting their budgets. We sit and plan for x amount of money, but because of other directives that are coming from the Central Government, it becomes a challenge.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, in reference to the Leader of the Opposition who clearly to me is at sea and is not speaking to the subject at hand.

Mr Speaker, an Integrated Development Plan (IDP) by definition is a tool that gives a framework on how land should be used and speaks to the physical planning of land. That is the simple definition. I have heard the hon. Member speak about ambulances, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, budgeting and the District Development Co-ordinating Committees (DDCCs), yet the IDPs by definition are strictly limited to the use of land or infrastructure development and where what should be in terms of infrastructure. Is he, therefore, in order to be wondering around on the WDCs being forced to buy ambulances, when the issue of ambulances is clearly away from the subject at hand?

I need a serious ruling on this matter.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us ensure that we debate accordingly and stick to the report. I know, as politicians, we have a tendency of, at times, speaking away from the report. However, let us ensure that our debate is relevant to the report that is under discussion.

So, my guidance to the Leader of the Opposition is that he should avoid straying by talking about issues to do with ambulances and what not, that are not relevant to the topic at hand.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you may continue.

Mr Mundubile: I sometimes find it very difficult.

Mr Speaker, what will not happen is for us to be ruled out of order even on an example. That I am afraid we will not accept. If I give an example, I have no control on how an hon. Member feels about my debate, and I think hon. Members must be allowed to debate in this House.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Leader of the Opposition!

Much as you are at liberty to debate as you wish, your debate should be relevant to the report. When it is open ended and you use any illustration you feel like using, then it becomes out of context. So, let us ensure that we remain relevant. The examples that we use should be in tandem with the report that has been laid on the Floor of the House. If anyone uses any example he/she feels like using, debate would not be orderly.

Let us just stick to the report as I guided. At this stage, it makes no use to be confrontational. We are brothers. Let us just stick to the report.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Well guided, Mr Speaker.

The report that I am referring to is the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs Affairs on the Review of the Implementation of the IDPs in Local Authorities. That is just for the record, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the point that I am trying to drive at is very clear. The report refers to the difficulties of aligning the CDF to the IDPs, and that is the point that I am trying to drive at. The example may have included ambulances because of what transpired, but I am simply saying that development can still be delivered using the same amount or allocation. The CDF will maintain its lane so that the WDCs make decisions at that level, the substructure level.

Mr Speaker, the other level that requires much more planning, strategic planning, happens at district level, and what we are talking about has actually been achieved in Kenya. We undertook a benchmarking tour not long ago with Madam Speaker and some of the hon. Members who are here, and we actually appreciated this challenge and we realised that we can actually resolve it. It is the same money that is spent in the district except that some of it sits with the DC under the DDCC, and the other money goes to the CDF Committee. So, the point I would like to deliver on the Floor of the House is that as opposed to amending the Constituency Development Fund Act, the intended objectives can still be achieved even with the existing policies and laws.

That way, Mr Speaker, we will not treat certain projects the same way at the same time because the needs, sometimes, come at different times, and I gave an example. You will find that in Mporokoso, we need to build a chief’s house, but in Kamfinsa, they do not need a chief’s house and may need something else. So, through this proposal that I am putting across on the Floor of the House, we are able to achieve all the objectives because money would have been allocated and the needs would be attended to according to particular constituencies in that format.

With those few remarks, Mr Speaker, I support the Motion to adopt the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Allow me, Mr Speaker, first of all, to thank the Chairperson of the Committee for presenting the report.

Mr Speaker, with me, is a report that was submitted a few minutes ago. If you go to page 10 of the report, it highlights a few issues that obviously need to be attended to. One of the issues that has been highlighted is the delayed approval of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs). Others are the capacity to develop the IDPs, inadequate resources, non-availability of land and inadequate capacity of the Ward Development Committee (WDC).

Mr Speaker, this is not my report. This is your report and this report was prepared after your Committee undertook some work. It travelled, engaged stakeholders and had a meeting to review its findings. So, we are reading what it has told us. What your Committee is telling us is that there are some challenges in implementing an IDP, and it highlighted those challenges. What we should be discussing here is how soon we can address these challenges. What we should be discussing is what we need to do to address the challenges that have been identified.

Mr Speaker, one of the challenges that the Chairperson read out from his report, and I am happy that the seconder also agreed, is that we need to find a way to raise the capacity for the WDCs to perform better. That is what Hon. Samakayi’s report is saying, not me. It is saying that the capacity of the WDCs needs to be improved, and that is what the Chairperson and his Committee found on the ground. It is not me who is saying this. Since it is your Committee which is saying that, we must address that problem and one way of addressing it is to pay members of the WDCs allowances.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Mufalali interjected.

Mr Kang’ombe: That is my view; I am debating. My view is that if we motivate the WDCs, we will attract people who have the technical know-how, and with the right capacity.

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: That is my view; I am debating. What is wrong with my –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Why are you judging yourself by asking what is wrong?

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: I have seen you interjecting me, Mr Speaker. I want to continue debating.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is a point of order.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(3).

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You can go ahead.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, Standing Order No. 65(3) is explicit and it says as follows:

“Except for the purposes of rescinding a resolution of the House, a member shall not reflect upon any resolution of the Assembly.”

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor is right now trying to reflect on the resolution that has already been settled and that is why I think he keeps on saying that it is not him who is talking in reference to the report. Let him dwell on the topic at hand rather than reflecting on what has been resolved. The issue was resolved so there is no going back to it. This House cannot dwell on that.

Mr Speaker, is he, therefore, in order to continue reflecting on what has already been settled as a resolution?

I submit, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member is out of order by referring to a resolution that has already been passed and endorsed by the entire House.

So, hon. Member, I urge you to stick to the report and avoid referring to a Motion that has already been buried. You can go ahead.

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Speaker, page (11)(7) of the report has the sub-title, Inadequate Capacity of the WDC. This is in the report that was tabled by Hon. Samakayi, the Chairperson of the Committee, and I congratulate him for bringing out a real challenge. In 2019, guidelines for the IDP were issued by the Government. The Chairperson and his Committee went on the ground at a great cost to establish the facts, and him and his Committee are very honest. They brought out the fact that the WDCs do not have the technical capacity that is required to develop an IDP effectively.

Mr Tembo: Hammer!

Mr Nkandu: You want to give them allowances?

Mr Kang’ombe: That is what the report is saying; it is not me who is saying. Now, because this is the Hon. Speaker’s report, we have to take what it says to be serious and we must find a solution. I am not here to talk about any other matter than what is in the report. So, I think these are issues that need to be attended to. If I or Hon. Nkandu make a proposal of how we can address one challenge, it simply means that it is a suggestion that your Committee has to take. Government is a going concern. You implement guidelines that were left by your colleagues by refining and improving them; that is governance. So, I hope that the proposals we are making – our role is to make proposals; value our role.

You have picked an issue. Our role is to tell you to attract the right capacity for the WDCs, which is to provide an incentive for them. That is a proposal you should take note of because this debate, Mr Speaker, is based on your report. Our role is to suggest. So, I suggest that one way of attracting the right people to the WDCs, which may not be done today and may be done after a year or six months, is to provide an incentive for them. Further, a small committee can be appointed to review how to attract the right capacity in the WDC.

From where I stand, Mr Speaker, I am very certain that the people in the WDC whom we work with when preparing an IDP need an incentive because the discussion today is about an IDP. We are discussing an IDP because it is a necessary tool. It is a tool that can help each one of us in our respective constituencies to perform better. If we can give incentives to members of the WDC, who only meet four times in one year, I am very certain that they will be able to help us prepare better IDPs. That is what is on page 11 of the report; it is not me saying that. That is what is in the report presented by the Hon. Samakayi, and I was shocked that he did not support the previous Motion, yet in his report –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, why are you still referring to a dead Motion? That Motion is water under the bridge, and there is no need for you to refer to it.

Mr Kang’ombe: Am guided, Mr Speaker. Thank you for your guidance.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: It is not necessary at all for you to do that. There are other things that you can talk about.

Mr Kang’ombe: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for your guidance.

As I conclude, I thank Hon. Samakayi and his team, for being honest with the findings.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Samakayi for the report.

Mr Speaker, I will begin by defining what an integrated plan is. It is a cross functional process that ensures all stakeholders, and the key words are ‘all stakeholders’, are involved at the right time to a high priority across an organisation. We, who are here, are all involved in planning but very few of us went to study planning. However, we cannot take a system that overlooks the beneficiaries of what we want to do, and this has been a big problem which even donors made. They would plan from Europe for people in Africa and it never worked. Even when we come to other things like budgeting, you cannot start budgeting from the top and leave out the people who are receiving. So, the strength of any planning is to involve everybody. Whether they can speak English or not, involve them because when you go to their wards, they will tell you that they do not need a school but a clinic, and had they not made that contribution, you could make a mistake. So, starting from the district and avoiding the Ward Development Committee (WDC), is like committing suicide.

Mr Speaker, what happens is that when you collect information from the lowest levels who are the beneficiaries, you take it to the technocrats, who will make the integrated plan. Even some councils do not have the capacity to make an integrated plan. They hire some people to help them. However, when planning, you need to collect information from the lowest level. Even in a house or a family set up, when you are planning, you cannot leave out the children. If you are an artist and you are doing great work, they will tell you to do this, and that is consultation. So, any system that neglects the beneficiaries of that development is a bad system, and that is why I am saying that the WDC –

Mr Speaker, we are talking about capacity. I never did real planning but I should be involved when planning because I will tell you what we need in my area. I will tell you that I need a house with six bedrooms but somebody else will make the plan. I will sit down with the planner and I will tell him I need a house with six bedrooms, a sitting room and a room for my dogs then he will come up with the plan. However, one cannot say that because you cannot make a drawing for a house, you should not be part of the planning. So, the idea of starting from the villages and asking the people in the villages what they need is very important. You might buy clothes for the people at home, when they actually need food, and that is wrong planning. You will carry a whole case of clothes, but they will not appreciate. So, for me, the idea of beginning with the WDC is very important.

Mr Speaker, we have talked about the capacity of the WDCs. Yes, they may not have the capacity but I said that even some councils cannot produce integrated plans. They hire people to do that and there is nothing wrong with hiring. When somebody is sick and I hire a doctor to attend to that person, it does not mean I am that –

Hon. Lubozha: That dull.

Mr Kamboni: Yes. So, what is important is getting a person who qualifies to do a particular job.

Mr Speaker, my other request is that the integrated plan is very complicated.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: There is a point of order. On whom?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, my point of order is on my colleague who is debating, Hon. Kamboni.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: I am being told across the Floor that he is a former teacher.

Mr Speaker, my point of order is based on the content, the truthfulness of the submission. I have been listening to my honourable colleague very carefully. He defined an integrated plan, which he claims is a process.

Mr Speaker, everyone who has done basic planning studies knows that a plan is a finished product but it encompasses processes. Is my honourable colleague in order to define integrated planning as a process and not a finished product? I seek your very serious ruling on this matter.

Mr Kanengo: What Standing Order?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you have debated your point of order.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Mr Speaker, it was not actually my definition. I was quoting from Google, on what such kind of a plan is. There are many types of plans but the key words in the definition were ‘all stakeholders’. So, we cannot ignore the contributions of the members of the WDC. It is not that they are all not educated. It depends on the area. In Lusaka, you might find the real experts in the WDC. So, it depends on which area you are in. However, even then, when they do not have capacity, usually, they hire people to help them but they can make submissions so that you have a proper integrated plan. So, my emphasis was on not leaving out members of the WDC. The Leader of the Opposition said we should start from the district, and I do not agree with that, because this will leave out what the people really need.

Mr Speaker, the integrated plan should also be simple so that everyone can read it. As of now, it is still a little bit complicated such that even some councils cannot produce it. However, we need to reach a level whereby even the people in the councils produce it. Once it is simple, it will be effective and all the delays that have been talked about will be avoided. However, I am sure as we go on, it will become easy for people at all levels to produce it.

Mr Speaker, I also want to say that the production of this plan is very expensive. So, the more we simplify it, the more affordable it will be to produce it. I think I end here. I just wanted to talk about ignoring the work of the members of the WDCs. Whether some of them are headmen, we need them because their contributions matter a lot.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: For the sake of progress and since we have a lot of work to do, I call upon the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to respond and thereafter, the mover of the Motion will wind up.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Speaker, I wish to express my gratitude to your Committee for coming up with a report which gives the Government an opportunity to reflect on the polices and measures being taken to promote development and enhance local governance.

Mr Speaker, the Integrated Development Plan (IDP) is an essential tool for development as it is a super plan for an area that gives an overall framework of development. It aims at co-ordinating the work of local authorities and spheres of the Government in coherent planning, to improve the quality of life of the people living within that jurisdiction, considering the existing conditions, problems and resource availability for development.

The plan looks at, among many things, economic and social development in an area as a whole. An IDP gives a framework for how land must be utilised, what infrastructure and what services are needed, and how the environment should be protected. The Urban and Regional Planning Act No. 3 of 2015, requires all local authorities to have an IDP. The local authorities are responsible for co-ordinating the engagement of all stakeholders in the IDP development and implementation processes, and it does not specify that this should be done by the Ward Development Committee (WDC) only. It is wide, and it encompasses all stakeholders and any interested party. Normally, this is done through town hall meetings, and public gatherings with people from all various persuasions who come together and agree, for instance, where churches and taverns should be, where a road should pass, and where the road reserve should be. These plans normally cover a 100-year period, and as I said, the Act was enacted in 2015.

Mr Speaker, I heard the lamentations of the Chairperson that the approval process of the development plans seems to be slow and to comfort him and his Committee, the figure nine or is it eleven that they gave the House has now improved; it is now twenty-seven. We have approved twenty-seven IDPs, the latest being for the entire North-Western Province, which we launched only a week ago, owing to the fact that we actually had a loss via a tragic traffic accident that claimed the life of the Mayor of Solwezi. Otherwise, these IDPs were ready a long time ago. We are on the right trajectory to make sure that the entire country complies with the generation of these IDPs.

Mr Speaker, let me inform the Chairperson of your Committee that the twenty-seventy IDPs, by the way, were done and approved in a period of eighteen months that we have been in office. However, go and reflect on when this Act was actually put in place. It was in 2015, and there was a Government at that time. 2015 to 2021 gives us six solid years and no IDP was approved and that must speak something. We are on the move. We are going to make sure that come middle of next year, every district has an IDP. Therefore, our ministry has a role to ensure that these plans are developed and also implemented.

Mr Speaker, allow me to respond to some of the issues that have been raised by my colleagues. I have already stated that the over-emphasis of the IDP is a misplaced argument. To state that the IDPs, and I am speaking about the report, have no capacity is quite unlikely because the constitution of the organ called the IDP is a novel idea. We just started and so the communities themselves will look at the people whom they elected. Unfortunately, the WDCs are elected bodies and there is little we can do because people go to choose whom they want. So, if the people agree with this report that has been generated, that the people whom they chose have no capacity, after five years there will be another election after which people with higher capacity will be put in office. However, remember that the WDCs are just another brick in the wall because they are stakeholders like many others from all walks of life such as the clergy, the teachers, the villager, and the common person, who will tell you not to put a barbershop or a car wash at a particular place as the case we found.

You remember, Mr Speaker, that it is in this town where the educated people are, where one Government decided that it was going to take away all road reserves and put permanent structures. When we came in to start demolishing them in respect of what will happen after we are gone, maybe 100 years later, they said we are heartless. This is speaking to the IDPs. You have to plan 100 years ahead and not the way things were in the past, where there was a proliferation of structures everywhere, and people were building houses under a ZESCO Limited pole line, on a sewer line, on a road reserve and on a railway line. Under the last Government, a police post was built on a railway line; can you imagine that. This is walking the talk in achieving – I am grateful to your Committee for bringing up these issues to make us seat upright and make sure that never again will we have haphazard planning.

Mr Speaker, it is true, and absolutely true, that in the past, post 2021, political officials called councillors were actually alienating land, selling it to people, and enriching themselves. It is true that in the past, a Government which behaved in a criminal manner, and I am being honest when I say these things, decided to damage a water recharge system and built on what we are now referring to as the Lusaka East Forest Reserve No. 27, ignoring the very fundamentals of the fact that for years since God created this earth, Chalimbana River was feeding from the recharge system where they built mansions; these ones here.

Hon. Government Members: Which ones?

Mr Nkombo: These ones; the ones we are with.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: It is good to talk and bring your mind across, but it is also good to be honest because honesty is the best policy. We were elected on the ticket of the restoration of the rule of law. This issue of the IDP, to me, sits squarely on the physical planning of infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, people here in the central business district (CBD) decided to ignore the values that those people who planned Lusaka put in place, and by the way, these IDPs are not cheap. We have technical support from co-operating partners who have spent a lot of money to study. We are coming up with a greater plan for Lusaka and you will see it when we roll it out with the help of the Japan International Co-operation Agency (JICA), and the European Union. You will see that we are doing everything that we can in order to cater for the generations that are coming after us.

Mr Kafwaya indicated for a point of order.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Minister finish making his –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister is making a policy statement and as such –

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Chisenga, let us ensure that there is tranquillity in the House. The hon. Minister is making a policy statement. We all know that as such we cannot interject.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, finally, I want to enhance a point that in the last Government, many districts were created. Districts were created from the brownfield, where there was nothing. For a district to qualify to be a planning authority, certain measures have to be put in place. I want to confirm here that certain district councils have not yet gotten planning authority and this is partially the reason there are delays. We need to guide them properly on how to develop an IDP and these include Mwembezhi Council, Chikankata Council and those districts that were borne not so long ago. So, this is a continuous process. By the way, when a district-integrated plan is done, it does not mean it is cast in concrete or in iron, no. As and when planners who have gone to school sit and see that – remember these fly-over bridges that were put up were not in the original plan for Lusaka, but they are there today because some planners said that was one way of addressing the issue of congestion. So, planning is a continuous process to accommodate people and this issue is so important. In view of selfishness of humankind, some people wanted to establish where they ought not to be as the case was in the past. However, I respect and support the report. It will help us get some work done and move a little bit faster. We appeal for the co-operation of all hon. Members of Parliament and all the stakeholders to come to the party, so that we can work together to make a society that will be good to live in, as we approach the future.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mwinilunga, wind up debate.

Mr Samakayi: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, this report ought to be discussed in isolation from the defunct Motion. I want to react to what the hon. Leader of the Opposition said, but he has gone out instead of getting some information from us. I want to say that the plans at national level are made for people at the lower level. Therefore, there are stages. You have national plans and then you have Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) which are co-ordinated at the district level, and the information comes from the people at the Ward Development Committee (WDC) level. I want to say that the WDCs do not develop the IDPs; they contribute information to the development of the IDPs.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samakayi: The people on the left are misleading the people. They are misleading the nation and this House. We are saying that the Constituency Development Fund Act must be amended because it was developed when the IDPs were not in place. So, all we are saying is that let us align the Constituency Development Fund Act to the IDPs so that whatever we are doing at national level or at WDC level must feed into the IDPs and from there be included in the national development plans.

Mr Speaker, when we said capacity, we did not mean capacity at the WDC level, no. We were talking about capacity during the development of the IDPs, which is at district level. We were talking about inadequate financing, inadequate equipment, and the lack of co-ordination in the development of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), not the way they were misleading the people and the House.

Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Kamboni for putting up a very knowledgeable debate, which if they were around, they would have got what this report is all about. I thank all those who debated negatively and those who debated positively because this will build all of us.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL GUIDANCE AND GENDER MATTERS

(Debate resumed)

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, when business was suspended yesterday, I was trying to draw the House to page 2 of the report. My point is that in terms of ensuring that the 50/50 parity is achieved for male and female representation in institutions of governance, some milestones were met in 2016. Female representation in the National Assembly stood at 18 per cent, female representation in Cabinet stood at 25 per cent, and female representation in local Government stood at 9 per cent. This is what was achieved, according to the report on page 2. However, instead of improving on the figures, you will see that the percentages have come down. The representation of females in the National Assembly has dropped from 18 per cent to 15 per cent, from 25 per cent to 15 per cent in Cabinet, and from 9 per cent to 8 per cent in local government. So, instead of progressing, we are going backwards.

Mr Speaker, affirmative action is very important. Probably, we can start creating structures and systems within political parties that can ensure a bigger number of women representation. Maybe, we even look at the legal framework that will bring women to Parliament, local authorities, and Cabinet.

Mr Speaker, I want to make some proposals. In a number of neighbouring countries, there is affirmative action that ensures that the number of females represented in Parliament increases. For example, Uganda has 111 districts and each district elects a female parliamentarian. So, the female folk compete at district level. So, the Parliament of Uganda starts with 111 females. That is affirmative action and that is what I am proposing. The Government should consider that. It is done in Rwanda, Sudan, Tanzania and in so many other countries. This way, we are going to ensure that a number of our womenfolk are given opportunities in institutions of governance. That is the first point.

Mr Speaker, secondly, I also want to take this advantage to speak to the womenfolk themselves. Many are the times when opportunities are given to women to elect or to appoint themselves but they usually ignore the young women. If you look at the composition of most civil society organisations that are managed by women, you will not find young females. Even in most religious groupings such as the Catholic Women’s League (CWL) and the Dorcas Mothers, the participation of young women is ignored. So, my submission today is that in all areas of governance, that is, political, religious, social, we should ensure that young women are considered.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I end here. I want to leave time for other colleagues to debate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Chilubi will debate and after the hon. Member for Chilubi, Her Honour the Vice-President will respond. I must make it very clear that this is the order of the day. Other debaters already debated yesterday so the hon. Member for Chilubi may take the Floor.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the people of Chilubi, to add my voice to this very important debate.

Mr Speaker, I will start with the issue of the legislative framework, and this has been referred to in the report. I think we need to revisit certain issues in Section 24 of the Gender Equity and Equality Act No.22 of 2019 because when we talk about affirmative action, which other contributors have alluded to, we find that the practical aspect in terms of implementation is lacking. The National Gender Policy of 2000 and the Anti-Gender Based Violence Act No.1 of 2011 are more reactive than proactive, especially considering the dynamics surrounding gender disparities.

Mr Speaker, I think we will be shooting in the dark if we do not look at this debate in terms of protection, participation and promotion. I have to underline that I know that when we talk about gender, we have taken a reactive approach because the scale of women is tipping on one side, and we seem to be targeting empowering women or lifting them from the lower side of the scale to balance up with the men.

Mr Speaker, I know that appointments that are made are subjected to Article 259 of our Constitution. If that is the case, since we are talking about gender, I know that Article 259 talks about bringing the youths on board. When it comes to balancing up things, women will be there but youths are both female and male. However, you will find that most of the people appointed in terms of gender equity, are mainly male youths and not female youths.

Mr Speaker, we have sung songs in this nation several times, especially on balancing up political offices. We have gone to the mountain to talk about how the 1,800 plus councillors are disadvantaged by the 9 per cent. We have also talked about the number of female Members of Parliament as we know that the number of female representation has dropped in the House. We have also not looked much on balancing up the Judiciary. You will realise that the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol has been suggesting a bottom up approach which should start from the level of the district. I remember that at some point, and I hope that it is a practice now, the District Administrative Officer (DAO) who is an assistant to the District Commissioner (DC), was the gender focal point person at the district level. When there were activities concerning gender, the DAO would go in the village to identify even a common villager to participate in activities to do with gender.

Mr Speaker, I know that we have been grappling with different issues, especially constitutional reforms. I think we are at a station where the gender question can only be answered properly with constitutional reforms. For instance, if we talk about representation in the council, we know that the local Government uses First Past The Post (FPTP) System, and this is the system that is also used at mayoral level. It is only at Presidential level where we have the 50 per cent plus 1 system. The representation in Parliament is done through FPTP System. I think what should include gender is the quarter system or proportional representation. That should be appealing to different interest groups and it brings on board the interests of the women, the handicapped and the youths, and such an approach can only be done with constitutional reforms. You will find that the gender question settles on its own because those who are supposed to select will follow the proportional representation.

Mr Speaker, I also think that Article 60, which talks about political parties, gives a lot of burden to political parties, especially on how they are supposed to be behave. To me, Article 60 is more appealing to ethics, morals and ethical conduct of political parties as opposed to tackling the question of gender, and I think it also needs surgery. Political parties have this unfettered control of deciding which councillor they will put in which ward, and which Member of Parliament they will put in which constituency. Should there be proportional representation, if we do not carry out a surgery on Article 60, and we do not attend to the component of the system of voting and coming up with leaders – Articles 70, 53 and 100 should create a seam and they should sing to one song.

Mr Speaker, we always talk about the SADC Protocol and it remains rhetoric because we have not attended to our laws. However, some laws are somehow in space. They just talk about sexual and gender-based violence. That is what they address. They do not address the question of sharing power, and power differentials as it may entail the two sexes, the male and female. However, when we touch constitutional reforms –

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me at this point to say that we know we lost an opportunity as a nation. The referendum was supposed to take on board women rights and those of the children, but Part III of the Constitution, which is the Bill of Rights, is still in disarray. So, that was a yawning opportunity to lift our Bill of Rights so that the women can have their rights, and the rights in the right places.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I submit that the people of Chilubi support what the report has talked about, but with a caution of attending to the law.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker –

Mr Mundubile: Welcome back ba mayo.

The Vice-President: I have been here all the time.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I commend your Committee for this well researched report. I further thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this report. The promotion of gender equality remains an integral part of Zambia’s national development agenda. In the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), gender equality strategic goal is one of Zambia’s key development aspiration in order to achieve its 2030 vision.

Mr Speaker, the Zambian Government has realised that under representation of women in political and decision-making positions has an adverse effect on national development as a whole. Therefore, inclusive development has been prioritised in the agenda of the Government.

Mr Speaker, in terms of the policy and legal framework governing the 50/50 gender parity in governance and decision-making positions in Zambia and its adequacy, as rightly observed by your Committee, the Government of the Republic of Zambia has provided an enabling policy and legal environment, for the promotion of gender equity and equality in governance and decision making.

Further to the enactment of the Act, the Government has finalised the review of the 2014 National Gender Policy to include gender length perspectives such as diversity, equity, inclusion, recruitment, promotions as well as developing appropriate gender mainstreaming measures that are aligned to national and international instruments on gender. It is envisaged that the 2023 National Gender Policy will be launched during the third quarter of 2023 after the Cabinet approval.

Mr Speaker, in order to strengthen the institutional framework that drives the gender equality agenda in Zambia and its adequacy, the Gender Division was re-established in 2021 following the abolition and realignment of Government ministries. I must say that there is concern. I listened to some debaters yesterday who actually proposed that the Ministry of Gender be reintroduced. I think it is important to observe what is happening on the ground. The ministry was not abolished and gender issues thrown away, but it was strategically placed under the Office of the President to ensure effective co-ordination of all gender related interventions. In this regard, I assure the House that the gender machinery in the country is well co-ordinated and able to respond to all gender related issues through a multi-sectoral approach.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, with regard to the establishment of the Gender Commission, I assure hon. Members that internal consultations are still underway to ensure that duplications in the roles that may exist are addressed.

Mr Speaker, another critical issue raised by your Committee is the involvement of traditional leaders in raising awareness on the importance of both men’s and women’s participation in leadership and decision-making processes. As rightly observed by your Committee, there is currently low participation of women and girls in decision making processes due to the patriarchal system, limited recognition of women’s and girls’ rights both by women and girls themselves and by society at large.

Mr Speaker, the Gender Division through a multi-sectoral approach has intensified cultural resetting with traditional leaders, community and religious leaders to ensure that all negative cultural norms, beliefs and practices that have been perceived to discourage women and girls from participating in decision making are stopped.  Further, the Government through the Gender Division and its co-operating partners has intensified the engagement with stakeholders on women and girls to participate in decision making in an effort to achieve gender parity in decision making positions.

Mr Speaker, in the political sphere, it is clear that the political landscape in Zambia is friendly now than ever before.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I took note of the previous debate where it was stated that in 2016, women representation in Parliament was 18 per cent, but now it is even as low as 15 per cent. Yes, indeed, because of the rough terrain for example in 2016, women could not participate. However, the Government under the leadership of the Republican President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has worked to remove cadreism in the political sphere because violence, intimidation and bullying was not friendly to a woman. The political terrain in 2021 was rougher than in 2026 because it got worse and worse, but now, it is better. It is, therefore, our hope, as the Government, that there will be more women participating because the political landscape is now friendly and we will see changes.

Mr Speaker, in an effort to avert the persistent and widening inequalities between men and women in governance and decision-making positions, the Government implores all political parties to ensure that political party manifestos promote the adoption of female candidates.

Mr Speaker, I heard the debate of the hon. Member for Chilubi. I think he had a point that indeed, other administrative issues can be made, but there is a need for legal provision particularly, constitutional provision to allow women to participate more. This can only be done, as he stated, through Public Relations (PR). However, if somebody is referring to the dead Bill No. 10, that was not resolving the matter. The issue is we need to do that because when women are not fully participating, we are missing out on their contribution. Therefore, we can have a constitutional provision which could be done through PR or through a mixture of PR and reserved seats, as it is done in other countries, which could help to improve the participation of women.

Mr Speaker, the Government and hon. Members agree with me that we are already committed to looking at the Constitution to see which provisions we can all improve. This is a consultative process and we should all try and help. However, to start with, political parties have a duty to ensure that they adopt many female candidates. They should ensure that they deliberately do so. When you talk of affirmative action, it should be start with our political parties. So, as the Government, we engage all political parties to ensure that they give space to women. They should not give positions to women because they think the seat is dangerous. They should give the safe seats to women.

Mr Speaker, the Government will continue undertaking cultural resetting and sensitisation campaigns to encourage women participation in decision-making. Further, the Government is developing capacity and mentorship programmes for young women and girls in order to empower them to participate in leadership and decision-making at household, community and national levels. It is our hope that the situation changes and we work together to ensure that we provide the administrative and legal frameworks for us to ensure women come through. The Government realises that they are important.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kamboni: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. May I take this opportunity to thank the hon. Member for Mfuwe, the hon. Member for Milanzi, the hon. Member for Bangweulu and the hon. Member for Chilubi for debating. The debate was well balanced. We had two female and two male hon. Members who debated. That is gender parity. So, I thank all of them. This House now agrees that we need a 50/50 gender parity.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1913 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 29^th June, 2023.

____________

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

SCHOOLS OFFERING THE FRENCH LANGUAGE AS A SUBJECT IN LUBANSENSHI

317. Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Education:

(a)          whether there are any schools that offer the French Language as a subject in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency;

(b)          if so, how many schools offer the subject; and

(c)          if there are no schools offering the subject, why.

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that there are no schools that offer French Language as a subject in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, due to the response in parts (a) and (b) fall off.

Madam Speaker, the entire Northern Province does not have enough qualified teachers of French Language. There are only two trained and qualified teachers of French language and they are both teaching at Kasama Boys Secondary School.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

______

N. B. As Madam Speaker’s procession was announced, hon. Members reacted to the sound of the Serjeant-At-Arms’ voice. Thereafter, Mr Kang’ombe remarked that the Serjeant-At-Arms needed water, to which Mr J. E. Banda interjected, as Madam Speaker’s procession was entering the Assembly Chamber. This is what led to Madam Speaker expressing her displeasure with the two hon. Members’ conduct before beginning the business of the House.