Wednesday, 15^th June, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of the following members of the Parliamentary Legal Committee and staff from the Parliament of Zimbabwe:

Hon. Misheck Dudzai Mataranyika, MP        -            Acting Chairperson

Hon. Cuthbert Mpame, MP   

Hon. Anele Ndebele, MP

Hon. Mazwell Mavhunga, MP

Mrs Elizabeth Hove                                        -          Assistant Counsel to Parliament

Ms Esrina Mupfudze                                      -          Principal Law Officer.

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

I thank you.

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government business, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Ambrose Lufuma, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House today, Wednesday, 15^th, and tomorrow, Thursday, 16^th, June, 2022.

I thank you.

WITHDRAWAL OF DIRECTIVE ON THE ISSUANCE OF MINISTERIAL STATEMENT ON CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND GUIDELINES BY THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the last announcement is to the effect that, as the House will recall, on Thursday, 9^th June, 2022, the Hon. Mr Second Deputy Speaker directed the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to issue a ministerial statement on the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines. That followed a matter of urgent public importance that had been raised by Mr Emmanuel J. Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency. The ministerial statement was to be issued today, Wednesday, 15^th June, 2022. However, since a Private Member’s Motion on the same subject is on the Order Paper for today, the ministerial statement will not be rendered.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR A. C. MUMBA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANTANSHI, ON CRIMINALS ATTACKING MOBILE MONEY DEALERS

Mr A. C. Mumba (Kantanshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr A. C. Mumba: Madam Speaker, I rise on Standing Order No. 134, which is a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker, we have noticed that the mobile money services sub-sector has been attacked quite aggressively in the last few months, to the extent that criminals have now even started killing some of our youths running mobile money centres or, indeed, stealing the hard-earned monies, which people have invested in their businesses.

Madam Speaker, you will appreciate the fact that mobile money service providers have worked quite aggressively in responding to real-time money transaction needs, especially of those who lack banking services. However, criminals are threatening that private sector investment, which is contributing aggressively to our economy. I would like to know whether the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security is in order to remain quiet on this very delicate matter, which borders on the lives and the wellbeing of the people who own those businesses, especially the young people. As you heard last week, one youth was abducted and, a week later, was declared dead. There are many other cases that may not even have been captured by the media. I would like to know whether the hon. Minister is in order to remain quiet and not outline any measures taken to protect those lives and businesses in our country.

I seek some guidance from you, Madam Speaker, because this matter has kept many mobile money service providers in an awkward situation, and they fear for their lives because they always handle a lot of cash in a day.

Madam Speaker: Thank you for that matter, hon. Member for Kantanshi.

We have seen in the press several reports of mobile money service providers either being abducted or threatened with death, and I believe, there has been no statement that has come forth to explain what is happening. I remember, the matter was being investigated, but I do not know what the outcome was. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is not here but, maybe, he would have loved to shed some light. Since he is not here, we will give him some time. He can get back to the House next week on Thursday to render a ministerial statement on this matter so that the nation can be informed about the measures being taken to protect mobile money service providers in order to preserve life and property.

Hon. Members, as we raise these matters of urgent public importance, let us bear in mind that we have a lot of work to do today. I believe, all hon. Members would like to participate by debating, and I want as many hon. Members of Parliament as possible to debate the subjects that are before the House today. So, can we restrict ourselves to matters that are of urgent public importance and are a matter of life and death, and do so in accordance with the criteria outlined by our own Standing Orders.

With that caution and directive, the hon. Member for Mpika Central wants to raise a matter of urgent public importance.

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MPIKA CENTRAL, ON MR KABUSWE, HON. MINISTER OF MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT, ON DEATHS AT THE BLACK MOUNTAIN

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I rise on a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134. The matter is directed to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Speaker, in the past two weeks, we have seen a number of video clips of dead people purportedly from the Black Mountain. Even yesterday, there was a clip circulating. Actually, it is still circulating on social media, and it is of a man who died at the Black Mountain. I would like to know the safety measures that have been put in place by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development as our people operate at the Black Mountain, because the death toll from activities there keeps rising on a daily basis.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for this matter that you have raised. Indeed, there has been some concern on the happenings at the Black Mountain, and I am aware that the matter has been dealt with by this honourable House. It has been debated but, in view of the rising number of deaths that have occurred, I think, it is important for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to inform the House, and through this House, members of the public, on the measures being taken to ensure that lives are preserved at the Black Mountain as it continues to operate, and to ensure that there is a balance between the economic activities and the need to preserve life, which is precious. So, on Friday, next week, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is directed to issue a ministerial statement on this matter.

Let us now make progress. We have a lot of work, as I have already indicated. So, we move to the next item on the agenda.

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MOTION

AMEND THE 2022 CONSTITUENCY DEVELOMENT FUND GUIDELINES

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I take this opportunity to thank you for according me this opportunity to move a Private Member’s Motion to urging the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines to, among other objects, extend the utilisation of funds to tertiary education.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, let me begin by applauding the Government for increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) from K1.6 million to K25.7 million. The increase will scale up development in constituencies across the country, especially the rural constituencies, since there has been lop-sided development in the country since Independence.

Madam Speaker, allow me to highlight the objectives of this Motion. The aim of this Motion is to request the Government to consider amending the CDF Guidelines on the utilisation of boarding secondary schools and skills development bursaries, which amount to 20 per cent of the CDF allocation.

Madam Speaker, I propose that the amendment allows the CDF Committees to consider awarding bursaries to vulnerable children in constituencies who intend to undertake professional courses that are on demand in our constituencies, such as teaching and nursing, offered by Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA)-accredited institutions. For example, at Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce, here in Lusaka, which is a TEVETA-accredited institution, courses such as teaching are offered, but teaching is not among the courses recommended for consideration for award of bursaries under these guidelines.

Madam Speaker, allow me to emphasise here that my proposed amendment is not meant to take away the intention of the Executive to empower local people in our constituencies with skills development; it is meant to help students seeking to pursue professional courses to be considered under these guidelines only after there are excess funds after bursaries have been offered to boarding secondary school pupils and skills development institution students.

Madam Speaker, as I move this Motion, I take into account the fact that the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB), which was established by the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Act No. 31 of 2016, took over the administration of student loans and scholarships. I am also aware that the board currently awards student loans –

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, with your permission, and taking into account that you should take judicial notice of the fact that a Motion that is presented on the Floor of the House must be clear and succinct and that someone who wants to make an amendment to a Motion must circulate the amendment, I must point out that the mover is now amending the Motion on the Floor of this House. So, there is no Motion, actually, because he has not circulated the amendment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Hon.

Member for Chama North, please, stick to the Motion that you have presented, which is contained on the Order Paper. Do not add anything to it.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: According to the records that I have, there is a Motion, a Private Member’s Motion.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Let us allow him to debate. However, he should stick to the Motion that he has presented on the Floor, which was duly approved by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly.

Hon. Member for Chama North, you may proceed.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I think, my argument here is directing –

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama North, I do not know whether Chama South and Chama North –

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Is there some opposition of some sort? The hon. Member who has the Floor is the hon. Member for Chama North. Please, hon. Member for Chama South, do not interfere with the north.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, it is a point of procedure, and it is very important for –

Madam Speaker: On the same matter?

Mr Mung’andu: No. If you check, Madam Speaker, –

Madam Speaker: Proceed, hon. Member for Chama South.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the practice in this House is that before people can indicate to debate, we wait for the mover of the Motion to finish debating.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Listen! Let me finish. This is the procedure. The hon. Minister issues a ministerial statement then Madam Speaker asks whether there are people who want to debate and we indicate. However, what we have seen here is that many hon. Members are complaining because before the mover has finished moving the Motion and the seconder has seconded, people have already indicated on the gadgets. What is it that they will debate?

My submission, Madam Speaker, is that we wait until the seconder finishes then staff from the Information Communications Technology (ICT) Department should allow people to compete in indicating to debate.

I submit, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you may recall that when we started, I indicated that we should not waste time because there is an interesting Motion on the Floor. So, the hon. Members are interested in indicating that they want to debate. So, let us not waste time. However, I will use my discretion. The fact that an hon. Member has indicated first might not necessarily mean that he/she will speak first because we want to listen to other voices. So, you need not be worried.

The hon. Member for Chama North may proceed.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, it is a known fact that the number of students who were awarded scholarships is minimal compared to the number of students seeking for sponsorship. Thus, the students need to look for other avenues of funding, such as the CDF.

Madam Speaker, the number of pupils completing Grade 12 continues to increase year in and year out. For example, 81,838 candidates obtained the Grade 12 School Certificate in 2021. However, the number of students who were given loans to pursue tertiary education is a drop in the ocean. At the University of Zambia (UNZA), for example, 2,481 out of 10,682 first-year applicants were awarded student loans for the 2021/2022 Academic Year. The situation is the same in other higher institutions.

Madam Speaker, it is our responsibility, as Law-makers, to ensure that those who qualified, especially the vulnerable students, are given loans and sponsorship to attain tertiary education. Attaining any higher education at universities and colleges should not be the preserve of children from rich families. Many school leavers in our constituencies continue to be left out, and many of them roam the streets. It is from this background that, in order for us to help the Executive to increase the number of vulnerable children accessing tertiary education in constituencies, I move this Motion in the House to strongly urge the Government to consider amending the CDF Guidelines so that the bursaries for boarding secondary schools and skills development cater for tertiary education as well.

Madam Speaker, you may also wish to note that currently, the CDF Guidelines provide for eligibility for skills training bursaries of only applicants in possession of acceptance letters from public or private TEVETA-accredited institutions or the Zambia National Services (ZNS). There is, therefore, a need to expand the guidelines to include the vulnerable children in our constituencies who want to pursue tertiary education in institutions other than the TEVETA-accredited ones.

Madam Speaker, allow me, once more, to emphasise that this Motion is not intended to take away the legal mandate of the HELSB to provide education loans to students in tertiary institutions. The aim of this non-controversial Motion is to help us to complement the work of the board by utilising the CDF using an existing guideline, which just needs to be expanded to include the provision of bursaries for tertiary education. If you remember very well, the board awarded loans to only students who had got six points, and that disadvantaged the children in rural communities who cannot compete with those in urban areas because of certain facilities that are not available in rural areas. So, this facility will help the vulnerable children.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to state that there is bureaucracy in accessing the CDF. I am aware that a number of constituencies have failed to utilise the funds despite the pressing challenges that our people in the constituencies are facing. I am alive to the fact that controls are necessary for the prudent utilisation of funds. However, controls should not hinder the successful implementation of the CDF. I am also aware that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development is waiting to address some of the bottlenecks around this issue. However, I want to use this platform to urge the ministry to expeditiously deal with the problem of bureaucracy because there is too much of it. Even with community projects, after the local authority and the CDF Committee do their work, the papers are sent to the ministry, and they may not take long in the Minister’s office, but the technocrats take two to three months just to approve them. After that, they go back to the constituency. The same documentation goes to the Attorney-General (AG) and the Treasury for clearance, although the Treasury has delegated that responsibility to the Director of Finance at the provincial level. That process takes too long.

Madam Speaker, allow me to end my debate by appealing to hon. Members to support this non-controversial Motion, which will greatly help many school leavers in our constituencies who are very eager to go to colleges and universities, but have no financial capacity to do so.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Munir Zulu: Later, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

We are losing time. Any further debate?

The hon. Member for Pambashe.

Mr Chitotela: I thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Pambashe an opportunity to add their voice to the non-controversial Motion moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North.

Madam Speaker, where I come from, we say bamukolwe ngabafula, ubushiku tabuca bwangu, meaning that too many hands destroy the soup.

Madam Speaker, the intention of the New Dawn Administration, under His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, –

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

He has put it on.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on a procedural matter.

Madam Speaker, from the time I came to this Parliament to date, I have never seen the House proceed to debate a Motion that has not been seconded.

Interruptions

Hon. Member: It is seconded. It is just that he has not debated.

Madam Speaker: Order!

We are losing a lot of time.

Hon. Member for Mitete, let me just give guidance.

Mr Mutelo: I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The Motion, hon. Members, has been seconded. If you followed the proceedings, you know that I asked the seconder whether he wanted to debate now or later, and he opted to debate later, for whatever reason that I am not aware of. There is an option for the seconder to debate later and he has chosen that option.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The debate will proceed.

The hon. Member for Pambashe was on the Floor. Maybe, let me just make a request.

Please, let us not raise points that have already been debated on. If we can spare some time for other hon. Members, as many hon. Members as possible can debate, and that will be appreciated.

The hon. Member for Pambashe may proceed.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I was saying that too many fingers destroy the soup.

Madam Speaker, the intention of His Excellency the President on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) was very clear when he came to address the nation. On the education sub-sector, he said:

“Now we are taking power to the people. The approval of bursaries will be done at the household level”.

Therefore, Madam Speaker, segregating those who want to do courses other than the programmes provided under the Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) is negative discrimination that is doing a lot of harm to many children who are desirous of advancing their education profiles.

Mr Jamba: Mask up!

Mr Chitotela: To those who want me to mask up, I am double vaccinated and I have a health complication. I am not causing any danger.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the rules, as they stand right now, are that we all mask up. I would also love to remove my mask, but I cannot because the rules require us to not do so. So, until the rules are changed, we will continue masking up.

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, yesterday, I raised a very important point bearing in mind the fact that I have been in the Executive before and that, therefore, I knew that the New Dawn Government’s concentration is on the CDF. I also know that there is much interest from various ministries. At the end of the day, if we do not streamline this programme under one Minister, it is bound to fail because everybody will want to be associated with it. Therefore, yesterday, I raised a very important issue.

Madam Speaker, the very hard-working hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development used to stand here the time I used to sit there (indicated the Frontbench), and one wonders. This is the sixth month of the year and in the next two months, His Excellency the President will come here to address the nation. Further, in the next three months, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come here to address the nation and present to us the new budgeting cycle. Additionally, there is a circular to the effect that money must be kept in an account and a financial manager appointed. I have been wondering at what point the financial manager to manage this fund will be appointed and when the giving out of loans to deserving youths and women will start when we have literally remained with two to three months to begin another Budget circle. Herein lies the cause: there are various ministries with too many interests, and I am speaking from experience. I was in the ministry responsible for infrastructure, and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government had an agenda for infrastructure that aroused many interests.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister requires the support of the Executive for him to successfully execute the programme. He requires the support of the President and fellow Cabinet Ministers because most of them would want to see him fail, thinking that if Hon. Gary Nkombo succeeds, it will be he who makes a name when at the end of the day, it would be the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government that would have benefitted many Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I hope, His Excellency the President and those in the Administration are listening. They should streamline the guidelines so that we know who is responsible for what function. Right now, it is just something else. If you read the guidelines, money has been disbursed, but there is this Minister who desires that one thing be done and another who desires another thing to be done. At the end of the day, it is a circus. So, we will not go anywhere, and the Zambians we desire to serve will not be served because of too many interests.

Madam Speaker, I emphasise that this matter cuts across all the constituencies. Those who are elected and have constituencies ­­­–

Madam Speaker, the people of Pambashe are experiencing pain due to the non-disbursement of the first allocation of the CDF. The second quarter is about to end, but we have not even spent a single Ngwee of the first allocation. When are our colleagues going to disburse the second and third instalments? The cause is too much bureaucracy and interest in this book. When you read it, you will find that many ministries are interested in the implementation and monitoring of the CDF. How? Is the CDF the only Government fund that the New Dawn Administration is running with? The answer is ‘No’.

Madam Speaker, why can the Executive not agree that once this programme becomes a success, all of us will celebrate? That will be good for the UPND Administration, but there must be one person who must be accountable for the failure or success of the CDF programme. As things stand today, whom are we going to blame? The programme may be under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, but the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts is looking at the fund to make sure that youths benefit. Wherever the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development goes, he points people to the CDF. The hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services also points people to the CDF. So, one begins to wonder whether all the Government systems have trickled down to only the CDF and whether we will only run on it and, as a result, there is confusion.

Madam Speaker, I also want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister the fact that the transfer of principal officers mid-year is another cause of the delay in the implementation of the CDF. When all the principal officers in the councils and cities across the country are moved around, when are they going to settle down and begin implementing programmes? After the ministry holds seminars for the officers at Chalimbana and teaches them how to work, an officer is transferred to Shangombo after two days in office and the officer in Shangombo, who is transferred to Mbala, is moved somewhere else five months later. When are such officers going to work? So, there must be consistency in the implementation of Government programmes, and we need to streamline the guidelines so that there are no tedious repetitions and there is one person responsible for the fund, who will be held accountable for its failure or success.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I support the mover of the Motion and urge the Administration not to politick over this matter because in the next two months, His Excellency the President will come here to address the nation and, in the next three months, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come here to present another Budget. What are they going to talk about with these eminent failures in the implementation of the CDF?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I want to tackle the challenges we are having in accessing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President of this country, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, with his Cabinet, came up with the very good idea of giving us enough money, somewhere around K14.7 million, or should I say 60 per cent, for projects and 40 per cent for other things. However, what has happened is that we are not moving as a country. We were given very good guidelines by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, meaning that the entire Cabinet or the Executive of this country agreed to the said guidelines.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that among us here, maybe, one or two have disbursed money to secondary schools. Even in the first and second quarters, it was a disaster. Should I say there is a derailment at the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development? I understand that they are just human as well.

Madam Speaker, there are 156 constituencies in this country, and we are piling everything to do with secondary school bursaries for vulnerable people in rural constituencies. Ward Development Committees (WDCs) choose vulnerable people at the local level and send the information to the constituency. From the constituency, the information goes to the national level, where it takes about three months to approve the names and send them back to the constituency. This process takes time. Further, we have to send the same names to the Local Government Officer at the provincial level.

Madam Speaker, this money is not for individuals, but for the country. If we love our country, let us support the idea of the CDF. Further, if we really respect low income families, let us see to it that we support this money. If somebody can rise up today and argue with the development of the CDF, I do not know how I or even the country would describe that person.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to the Government to minimise the bottlenecks in the administration of this money. What is happening today is a disaster for all of us. It is also a disaster for the United Party for National Development (UPND), as the party in Government.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that we are in the sixth month of the year, yet the money for projects has not been released. No one here has started digging a single toilet or building anything, and this is not good for us all, regardless of which political party we belong to, be it the Patriotic Front (PF) or the UPND. Maybe, there are selected constituencies where things are moving. As for constituencies like mine, they are sometimes forgotten in the planning in this nation. Maybe, mine has not been touched yet but, as far as I know, no single constituency has got any approval. Maybe, there are selected constituencies, those that are loved or respected. Otherwise, if it is a normal process, no constituency has got approval for any project.

Madam Speaker, we gave people hope and the people came for loans and grants. The area I come from and Nyimba in general are agricultural areas. Let me just say that in the entire Eastern Province, there are no industries. The only industry we know is farming and people are asking for maize and soya beans shellers but, to date, money has not been approved. How do you think they are going to pay back the loans they got, since business in the agricultural sector is seasonal? We are not moving as a country. What is happening? What is there for the people at the local level?

Madam Speaker, –

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I rise on this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(b), which is on content of speech, and states that:

“(1)   A member who is debating shall –

(b)     ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Madam Speaker, the one raising this point of order currently happens to be the one privileged to approve all Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects, and I mean all of them.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member who is debating knows for a fact, and I mean for a fact, that his constituency projects have been approved by me. Is he, therefore, in order to mislead this House by saying that not a single project has been approved, considering that I am the one who approves projects?

I seek a serious ruling on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we debate, let us be factual. I know, it is a process and there are so many issues, but if projects have been approved, let us not state otherwise. However, on the other side, let us not debate through points of order. That could have come as a response.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, rest assured that the hon. Minister is here and that he is listening. So, please, let us be factual and relevant.

You may proceed.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, I feel for the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development –

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Nyimba, proceed with the debate.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, my plea is that we see to it that we start moving. Luckily, for Nyimba, projects worth K1.6 million were approved. However, from the money we have for the first quarter, nothing has been approved.

Madam Speaker, we need to move, as country. What will happen as people are counting the days and looking at what is happening in this country? My intention here is not to blame anyone, but to say that we should find a solution for moving this country forward. By our failure to find the solution last year, we are simply telling ourselves that we are not able to manage the needs of this country. However, what we have now is an opportunity to change the narrative of our failure to develop rural constituencies and to start developing everywhere at the same rate.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that some of us want to use this money to build clinics in areas where we grew up or build schools in some areas because when I was in Grade 1, I would walk 10 km to school.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, my appeal to this Government is that we start moving the process forward, failure to which – With regards to the bottlenecks, surely, there is no guideline we, as Parliament, can fail to correct.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that the circulars that are coming from the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) are just too many. In the last six months, we have had, maybe, six circulars or memoranda to Council Secretaries (CSs) on how to use the CDF. My appeal is that we start moving. I am appealing to members of the Executive to sit down and hear us. Eighty (80) per cent or 90 per cent of the hon. Members in the current Executive have constituencies, and it is sad that even they are failing to work in their constituencies, yet they know where the problem is. Do we need Jesus Christ to come and pray for us to start changing these laws?

Madam Speaker, I rest my case and thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to add a voice to the debate on this Motion.

Madam Speaker, the Motion proposes expanding the scope of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) so that it can accommodate the use of funds on tertiary education. However, in fact, here, at Parliament, we deal with Bills and laws. The guidelines that some people are trying to bring here are too low-level to be discussed by this Parliament. Further, there is nothing wrong with the CDF Guidelines because we, as hon. Members of Parliament, sat and looked at them, and we were satisfied that they were okay. The only thing that we did not –

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, resume your seat.

Hon. Members, this is a very emotive issue, and I know that all of you are interested in debating it. So, let us give each hon. Member the chance to debate. If you have anything to say or you want to counter the points that have been put forward by another hon. Member, you can indicate. This idea of heckling, shouting and disturbing the flow of debate will not be entertained. So, I would like to see hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Kawambwa, follow the debate.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, you may proceed.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, the CDF caters for skills training. You may have seen in our country that the skills profile has dwindled. During the times of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), we had trade schools that were offering skills training programmes. However, I can tell you that in Zambia today, we do not have skills for making silos. The money which has come in can cater for skills development.

Madam Speaker, let me just explain one thing. Maybe, people do not understand that a person who is trained at the university and obtains a bachelor’s degree is someone who designs, and that is not an art.

Do you colleagues want to be training more people from the university who just design, but cannot make a shirt? For you to have that suit you are wearing, you need an artisan to sew the shirt and put buttons. That is what we are looking for when we talk about this CDF.

Do you want to bring the already crowded –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Debate through the Chair.

Mr Jamba: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, people want to crowd the already crowded with those going to university when there is a board that looks into loans for students who need sponsorship. If the mover of the Motion had said we urge the Government to increase the money for bursaries or loans at that board, then, we would have supported him because that would mean a lot of money being available in the community for our children to go to university.

We are making feeder roads and schools using this CDF but, now, you want to add university scholarships. Then, you do not know what you are doing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, there is a Government in place, and it has committed itself to looking into the loans and putting more money into them.

Hon. UPND Member: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Jamba: Why can you not urge the Government to put aside money for bursaries and loans instead of saying that children should access the CDF? Then, we would show that we know what we are doing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, as things stand in my constituency, all the projects for the year have been approved already, and we have started executing them. The people who are saying they are not doing anything are not doing anything deliberately to make it seem like there is failure. To tell you the truth, the money we have is enough for skills development and whatever we are doing, but not enough for students going to universities. Therefore, the Motion that has been moved is actually brought-in-dead (BID) because it is misleading and giving the wrong impression. People are speaking English here about things that are not even substantiated.

Hon. UPND Member: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, maybe, let me put it this way; for you to sponsor a student at the University of Zambia (UNZA) for one full year, you need about K30,000. So, if you want students in our communities to be sponsored through the CDF, how many are you going to sponsor? Please, before you start moving such Motions, do your calculations. Think before you start doing these things.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: How many people are you going to sponsor? You will see that you will only sponsor one person and the CDF is going to be overburdened. Therefore, speaking as a Backbencher, I suggest that we move a Motion asking that the budgetary allocation for the education sector be increased to provide more money for students going to university, not Motions that propose getting money from the CDF, which is enough for what we are doing. We want to increase skills at the local level because at that level, we need welders, plumbers, people who make desks, people who make shirts and mechanics who are going to mend our tyres. So, what type of thinking is that proposes bringing people from universities to be fixing our shirts?

Madam Speaker, I cannot continue debating a BID Motion that people with degrees are supporting; a Motion that is dead.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Let us control our emotions as we debate.

Hon. Members, let me just give guidance. As we debate, let us stick to the Motion, which is on the extension of the CDF to tertiary education, not any other matter relating to the building of schools, roads and other things. It is just for the extension of the CDF to, among other areas, tertiary education.

The hon. Member for Lumezi, the seconder, is now ready to speak.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you kindly, Madam Speaker, for giving the good people of Lumezi the opportunity to support this non-controversial Motion. Permit me to also thank the Member for Chama North, Hon. Mtayachalo, for moving a progressive and non-controversial Motion that can only be shot down by hypocrites.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I am the bearer of a message from the good people of Lumezi, which is one of the regions that was marginalised in the past.

Hon. UPND Members: By whom?

Mr Sing’ombe: The PF.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us allow the seconder to debate.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, it has been put on record, not once or twice – the language in this House has been that some regions were marginalised, and Lumezi is one of the marginalised regions, I must submit.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, it is quite sad that we are here, where there are no technocrats, complaining that there are bottlenecks in accessing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We, as Lawmakers, are here trying to provide a solution for all the so-called bottlenecks that not too long ago, even our hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning complained of. We are trying to provide the solution by asking why in Lumezi, where we do not have Technical Education Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET) institutions, we cannot use even the surplus funds to build infrastructure that can house TEVET schools.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I apologise to the hon. Member for Lumezi for disturbing the flow of his thoughts.

Madam Speaker, my procedural point of order is related to the matter of urgent public importance that was raised last week on Wednesday and directed to the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, the Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa, Hon. Twasa, raised a matter of urgent public importance regarding the desperate situation obtaining in our health facilities, the hospitals and clinics.

Madam Speaker, there is a lack of medicines and a number of other necessities, and our people are desperate. So, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker directed the hon. Minister of Health to issue a ministerial statement today, Wednesday, 15^th June, 2022. Is the Executive in order to remain quiet and not inform on why the hon. Minister of Health has not come to the Floor as directed by the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker?

We seek your serious guidance on this very urgent matter of public importance.

Madam Speaker: Thank you for that observation, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, but the hon. Minister of Health is to render a ministerial statement as directed by the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker tomorrow, which is Thursday, not today. The directive was for tomorrow.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Well, the record I have indicates that it is tomorrow. Anyway, tomorrow is just another day away. So, let us wait and see what happens then.

The hon. Member for Lumezi may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for permitting the voice of Lumezi to continue supporting this non-controversial and apolitical Motion.

Madam Speaker, it has become the trend that announcements are made, to attract many likes on social media, that we have released the CDF, yet the money cannot be utilised in our respective constituencies. It has become the culture. Let me put the matter in its context; it is an ugly culture: we announce and then do nothing. Here, we want to blame the technocrats when it is our solemn duty to do the right thing.

Madam Speaker, we cannot be opposing everything with political lenses. We have situations in which hon. Members who do not have boarding schools in their constituencies get money for paying boarding fees. Why can they not use that money to build boarding schools?

Madam Speaker, the CDF, if –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

As you debate, please, stick to the Motion. Do not debate general matters relating to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and its implementation.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the Motion that we are debating today is progressive and well-intended for the people of Zambia. So, it should not be shot down or said to have been brought in dead (BID) when we know very well that in our respective constituencies, we who were elected, not nominated, there are problems.

Hon. Member: Question!

Mr Munir Zulu: There is a difference.

Madam Speaker, people should not be influenced by Nominated hon. Members to shoot down this progressive Motion.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Speaking from the valleys of Chitukulu in Lumezi, I urge this House to support the Motion. 

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate in support of the Motion on the Floor of the House, which urges the Government to amend the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines to include tertiary education, among many other objectives. I support this Motion because, firstly, it is non-controversial and, secondly, apolitical. As a matter of fact, there is always truth in collective wisdom.

Madam Speaker, many people have complained about the guidelines, and I can mention some of them. Number one on the list is His Excellency the President, who has publicly complained about the administration of the CDF. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, seated here, in this Chamber, has also complained about the administration of the CDF because of these guidelines. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development –

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, my point is in relation to Standing Order No. 65, which is on relevance.

Madam Speaker, I am getting confused by what is coming out. I do not know whether we are talking about the guidelines and the challenges related to them or about the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Chama North, which is on expansion of the scope of activities of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to include bursaries at the tertiary education level.

Mr Kapyanga: “… among other things”.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the issue is expansion, not the bottlenecks being talked about. So, are our colleagues in order to belabour, hour after hour, issues that are not in the Motion?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have already guided that as we debate, let us stick to the Motion, which is that this House urges the Government to amend the 2022 CDF Guidelines to, among other objectives, expand the utilisation of funds to tertiary education. So, we have to read in context that the expansion should, among other outcomes, expand the utilisation of the funds. It is the utilisation of the funds that needs to be expanded.

Hon. Opposition Members: “… among other things!”

Madam Speaker: Among other things, it is to expand the utilisation. So, let us stick to the Motion. If the Motion is not properly written, then, maybe, let us have a proper one moved. Otherwise, we stick to the one that is on the Floor. So, as we debate, hon. Members, let us stick to the Motion. Otherwise, we will lose the context in which we are debating.

Hon. Member for Lunte, you may proceed.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member who rose on a point of order did not even apologise for disturbing the flow of my thoughts, but it is all right.

Madam Speaker, let me continue by saying that the main thrust of the Motion is “to amend the guidelines”. The non-amendment of the guidelines is what has been causing confusion, and that is why you have heard the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning complain about bottlenecks; the guidelines do not speak to the realities on the ground. You also heard the President lament on the Copperbelt, and that was because the guidelines have a serious problem. That is also why your hon. Members on both your right and your left have been complaining about the implementation of the CDF. It is all because of the guidelines.

Madam Speaker, to be more specific, I know that when a person seeks an amendment like the hon. Member for Chama North is doing, he/she is simply saying that we should make the guidelines better, easier to apply and applicable to what is obtaining on the ground; the guidelines should address the real problems to do with tertiary education in our constituencies. The hon. Member is not saying that we do not want people from our constituencies to go to the University of Zambia (UNZA) because of fearing that they will be trained to speak in Parliament. He wants people to be developed regardless of where they are.

Madam Speaker, a few of us support the proposal to amend the guidelines to make them responsive, better and speak to the problems that we are encountering on the ground on the political, social and economic fronts.

 Madam Speaker, when you read these guidelines – I can take you to page 7, where there is mention of the CDF allocation, and you will be very surprised to see that even though we are saying people should be empowered, there are too many procedures that have to be followed prior to that empowerment going to the people we aim to empower. As a result, this year is going to end with no co-operative, club or any of the groups mentioned getting a loan. What will the implication be? The money for 2023 will be mopped up into Control 99. So, even though the hon. Member who moved the Motion thanked the Government for increasing the amount from K1.6 million to K25.7 million, I would only thank it for making the announcement because what is in the CDF account at Lunte Town Council is not K25.7 million, but K5.1 million. Clearly, there is no increase. Until that increase materialises in that bank account, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government cannot boast that it has allocated K25.7 million.         

Madam Speaker, the expansion of these guidelines is necessary. In fact, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development has been magnanimous and clear in saying that there are serious problems in responding to Hon. Dr Musokotwane. So, I do not see why the hon. Member seated behind him said things are okay when the hon. Minister who signed the guidelines, and I have seen his signature here (Indicating the Constituency Development Fund Guidelines Handbook), has been telling the nation that there are pitfalls. We need to resolve these matters, and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development should urge even his colleagues seated behind him to not deny what he admitted to, and what the President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said. Otherwise, the hypocrisy will become worse than it is now.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I thank you, on behalf of the people of Nkana, for giving me the opportunity to add a voice to this debate. Let me start by, perhaps, acknowledging the fact that I cannot imagine being a Member of Parliament without resources being given to me for me to be able to address the challenges that affect my people.

Madam Speaker, today, we live in a very polarised society and one in which people do not even understand the roles of a Member of Parliament to the extent where I get insulted everyday over the dilapidated Chibuluma Road, which is supposed to be worked on by my uncle, Hon. Eng. Charles Milupi, but the people out there think that it is my duty to work on it. Therefore, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) seems to be the equaliser for us hon. Members of Parliament, as it enables us to augment the Central Government’s responsibility where meeting the development needs of the people in the communities is concerned.

Madam Speaker, I want to state that I am delighted by the fact that more monies have been given to the constituencies because that enables us to confront the challenges that our communities are faced with. However, as was expected, the move from K1.6 million to K25.7 million has had teething problems. What we are expected to do, as hon. Members of Parliament, is to bring to the fore the teething problems that we identify, and the last break gave us an opportunity to understand the real extent of the challenges that have been presented by the new CDF Guidelines. It must also be noted that even from yester-years, the CDF has always been problematic in terms of guidelines. It is, therefore, the duty of this House to continue to refine the guidelines so that they do not remain an impediment to the execution of this exercise.

Madam Speaker, I have a problem with we politicians being indoctrinated to the extent of always politicising issues. For the first time, I am shocked that a Member of Parliament can stand up and oppose an issue such as this one which, ultimately, is going to help his standing in the constituency. The Motion asks the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to, perhaps, give leeway for usage of the CDF to go beyond what has been stated in the guidelines vis-à-vis providing our young people with skills.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that there are certain constituencies that do not have boarding schools, such as Nkana. So, certainly, the Government’s desire to send young people to boarding schools can be satisfied by no one because many young people in Nkana do not go to boarding schools. The question is: Where do we take that money, then?

Madam Speaker, there are constituencies where there are meagre numbers of young people who applied to be considered for enrolment in the skills empowerment initiative. The question is: From the K5 million, if two or three people are considered, where does one take the rest of the money? It is, therefore, prudent for any well-meaning hon. Member of Parliament to think outside the box and suggest that he/she be given freedom to support other vulnerable children.

Madam Speaker, yes, we are aware that the young people who desire to go to other tertiary institutions like universities are considered under the loan scheme, but how many get sponsored? Out of the 10,000 who applied to the University of Zambia (UNZA) in the last academic calendar, only 2,000 were sponsored under the loans scheme. The question is: Where do we take the rest of the young people if we do not have somewhere else to go to? Therefore, in all fairness, and if we reasoned on this Motion without politicising it, the CDF would have given us leeway to support other vulnerable children who come begging at our offices.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that when I am in my constituency, I dedicate two specific days, Mondays and Wednesdays, to attending to members of my communities from 0900 hours up to the last person goes out of my office, and the majority of the people who come to seek help are young people who are vulnerable and cannot find their way into, for example, a nursing school. We should not think that everybody desires to undergo skills training; some young people would like to pursue other facets of education, but they are vulnerable. I have a number of cases of a children dropping out of nursing schools in third year because the fathers who used to sponsor them died, and the children come to me, as a parent in the community. Where do I look to, since my salary is meagre? The consolation –

Mr Nkombo: Look to God.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: The hon. Minister is saying I should look to God. I am looking to him, as he is a demi-god here, it seems.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the consolation for hon. Members of Parliament should have been that we can look to the CDF. I wish to let you know that 958 children have applied for an empowerment programme in Nkana to the tune of about K3 million. Where do I take the rest of the money if not to supporting the other children who are vulnerable and in need of support for tertiary education?

Madam Speaker, I stand here ashamed that somebody stood and objected to a Motion that seeks to help him. The people out there who are following this conversation must actually be crying, having seen that they have representatives who can object to these non-contentious issues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Why? It is because people are indoctrinated.

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu: I feel ashamed that every time we bring progressive issues in Parliament, people look at them from the political side of things. That is not right.

Madam Speaker, I want to place it on record that the teething problems insofar as the utilisation of the CDF is concerned were expected. The role of this august House is to dismantle the grey areas; to unlock the problems that we have identified. So far, from 2021, no single project has been started in Nkana because of bureaucracy and inertia on the part of my colleagues in the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, who are mandated to execute the programmes. These are the problems we must be dealing with here. When we speak, we do not hate anybody; we are here because we are mandated to represent our people back home and their problems, which we bring to this House.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is contentious only to those are indoctrinated, which is very sad.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I stand here –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

We should bear in mind that time is running out.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, thank you for according the people of Kalabo space in time to express their views on the Motion on the Floor of the House. I will give a brief background to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, the idea behind the CDF was for it to supplement some developmental programmes in the constituency. Therefore, today, we are looking at amending guidelines that never came out of this Chamber, but from the ministry.

Madam Speaker, what I want to say is this: Whilst there is a complaint that there are bottlenecks in the guidelines, the challenge is with the people in the offices. You can have a good law and a bad law, but you need a skilled person to execute the rule or instruction. As we are here, we are dependent on the staff employed by the local governments. So, you can have as many laws or rules as you want, but the question is: Is there capacity to implement that which you want?

Madam Speaker, we should have been looking at the quality of staff in our constituencies rather than saying that we should amend the guidelines. Even if we amend them, we shall still use the same officers in the councils, and it will still be a non-starter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Miyutu: My contribution is that whilst we are looking at expanding and amending –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 states that we must bring matters that are factual and verifiable. Is the hon. Member debating, who was almost crying for the people of Kalabo here with a bottle of brown water the time he stood there (indicated the Opposition Bench), in order to accuse officers in the councils of failure to implement the guidelines when I have a circular from the Permanent Secretary (PS) in charge of administration, Mr Maambo H. Haamaundu, directing principal officers to transfer K733,441 to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Account Revolving Fund, and indicating that further guidelines on the management of the revolving funds would be availed and that guidance would be provided in respect of the procurement of CDF motor vehicles and projects? The Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and the PS have not given principal officers guidelines on how to proceed, and this circular was written on 21^st April and received by councils on 27^th May. Is he in order to accuse the innocent principal officers who are carrying out instructions as given to them by their superiors?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we are debating, I think, we are debating from the experience that we have acquired through the process of engaging the officers and with guidelines. So, each hon. Member is debating from that experience. I believe, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central is debating from his experience with the –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, if we have any counter points, let us raise them through a debate, not through points of order.

Hon. Member for Kalabo Central, you may proceed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the CDF Guidelines are on the table, and they need implementation. So, it is up to the officers. As I speak, we are done with the 2022 budget for the CDF and are at the procurement stage. Thirteen projects for the first quarter have been advertised and we are supposed to have a procurement meeting on Monday. So, I cannot side with the people talking of amending the rules because we are ahead of them.

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: All we want is to have the allocation for the second quarter of 2022, as the quarter will end in the next two weeks. Other than that, bursaries and scholarships would have been part of the issue that would have hailed the increase in the allocation so that it looks after the vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, no matter how many amendments we make to the guidelines, the CDF will still not be enough. We still need money in constituencies to build houses for the 30,000 teachers who will be recruited. Where will the money come from? We need money to build staff houses for the 11,000 medical staff who will be recruited. So, the money is not enough even as we speak. The challenges that we have are many.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: So, how many times are we going to expand the guidelines? Are we going to expand at the rate at which the allocations are going to be increased? If the expansion is rapid, but the increases are slow, what would we be doing? Nothing! Let us have one thing that we are going to implement successfully. Further, let us do with what we have. When we see that we have managed, then, we can increase. How do we increase –

Madam Speaker, our colleagues are complaining about the guidelines but, at the same time, they want to add more work to the scope of the CDF. That means, we will have more challenges in addition to those we already have.

Madam Speaker, in short, I for one feel that we should not expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education. Let us implement the CDF then we can encourage the Government to increase the allocation to the board responsible for bursaries and loans, and the Ministry of Education so that the two can handle the issue of those who want to go for tertiary education.

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I am not of the view that we should amend the guidelines.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving the people of Mpika an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this very important Motion.

Madam Speaker, I am a very worried person.

Madam Speaker, the President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema, a few days ago, gave us, hon. Members of Parliament and Councillors, the directive to find ways and means of resolving bottlenecks surrounding the implementation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Then we have people –

Mr Sing’ombe: Not expanding!

Mr Kapyanga: The Motion says, “… among other things”.

Madam Speaker, some people stood on the Floor of the House, very emotional like ‘Seven Spirits’, and opposed this very important Motion.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

As you debate, please, mind your language. There was a programme on television called “Mind Your Language”. Please, mind your language.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Masholi!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.

Madam Speaker, where I come from, in Mpika, we say ubwingi bwaminsoli bwapusawile imbwa, meaning that ‘many voices disturb a dog that wants to protect its owner’.

Madam Speaker, the Government’s intention to increase the CDF and decentralise is very good, and that is the more reason we should expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education so that even the vulnerable children in our constituencies can be supported to go to nursing and teaching colleges, among other institutions. Currently, the CDF only supports children in skills training centres, and this is the reason I stand here to support the Motion, regardless of the fact that in our account in Mpika, there is no K25.7 million. What is there is a little over K5 million, but the people there know that the money is in Mpika, and they go to knock on our office doors. Some want to go to nursing schools, some want to go to teaching schools while others want to go to universities. When they go to other offices, they are told to go and see the Member of Parliament and that the Member of Parliament’s office is where the CDF is. This is the more reason we should all support this Motion, which non-controversial, development-centred and targets our people; the same people who gave this Government the mandate to govern. There is no issue here. It is the people we are talking about; it is not the Patriotic Front (PF). Let us not see everything from the political lens. This is not a party secretariat; it is the National Assembly for our people.

Madam Speaker, the Motion says “… among other things”, and we should also look at the processes. As I speak, the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) have gone back to identify more projects because we had tailored our plans in accordance with the quarterly arrangement. There is a circular to that effect, which came out on 31^st May, directing all councils to plan for the whole year. So, the WDCs have gone back on the ground to identify projects that we need to send to the ministry for final approval. This is the situation that His Excellency the President is concerned about. The year is coming to an end, but no single project in Mpika or elsewhere has been implemented under the 2022 CDF. The Government must be worried that it will not have anywhere to sonta when the year ends.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: If we implement these projects, you are the people who will gain political mileage because you will point at what we would have done with the CDF.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Debate through the Chair.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the position of His Excellency the President is that he wanted money to go to the grassroots, leaving Lusaka where the thieves are. However, the people in the same Lusaka, where the thieves are, approve projects from the grassroots. 

Madam Speaker, I think, the CDF Act must equally be amended to accommodate things like women and youth empowerment and ensure that the process – we are not saying that you should loosen guidelines so that we can find loopholes for looting the funds. That is not our position. Our position is that the guidelines must be fine-tuned so that they respond to the challenges on the ground. We need to make progress. We cannot always be talking about one and the same thing. Our people need CDF projects yesterday. However, bureaucracy has prevented them from having the projects. Let me give the example of the road from Mufubushi to Kasenga, which was contracted and the contactor mobilised and heaped gravel all the way from Mufubushi to Kasenga. Now that the contract has been cancelled, the project has to be implemented using the CDF, and the WDC will have to go on the ground to receive that project and submit it to the CDF Committee, which will submit it to the people in Lusaka, where the money was removed from and taken to the grassroots because, apparently, there were thieves here. The people in Lusaka will take, maybe, thirty days to approve projects even when the projects may be of an urgent nature and needs to be implemented expeditiously.  

Madam Speaker, the mover of this Motion, in his own wisdom, included the phrase “among other things”. So, among other things, the guidelines must be amended to ensure that bureaucracy is cured. We cannot be here accusing council officers who are adhering to the guidelines. We need to look at the guidelines and fine-tune them so that the CDF is well implemented.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the people of Mpika –

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: ‘Seven spirits’, please, let me speak on behalf of the people.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the people of Mpika have received the intention of the CDF with gratitude. However, the guidelines are denying them the chance of having development through the CDF.

Madam Speaker, I submit that there are vulnerable children who should be supported through the CDF. Let the support not be limited to only those who intend to go for skills training. The other point is that under the boarding schools’ bursaries in Mpika, the children who wanted to go to Lwitikila Girls Secondary School were denied the chance because according to the guidelines, Lwitikila Girls Secondary School is not a public –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Chitambo has been anxiously waiting to raise a point of order. However, the time is 1607 hours, and I intend to conclude debate on this Motion before we go for the break. So, please, let us bear that in mind as we raise points of order. Let us be precise and to the point.

Hon. Member for Chitambo, have you withdrawn?

Laughter

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I even forgot about this point of order because you did not want to give me chance when that man was still debating.

Laughter

Mr Mutale: Being a former Whip of this House, Madam Speaker, and one who reads the Standing Orders almost every day, I just wanted to correct one notion about the way we dress in this House.

Madam Speaker, I am looking at the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central and, when I look at Standing Order No. 206, the way an hon. Member of Parliament should dress is very well explained. 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central is wearing trousers called corduroy or English khaki, if you like. The hon. Minister is wearing a coat, not a jacket. So, I really want you to help me to understand whether all of us should turn to wearing those corduroys and coats when coming to this House.

I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The role of the respective Whips is to follow-up issues of dressing. I concentrate on the core business of the House. So, respective Whips, please, ensure that the dress code is adhered to. I do not have to come in unless things get out of hand. So far, nothing has got out of hand.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, this point of order is extremely compelling and is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65(2)(b), which provides that the information provided on the Floor of this House should be factual and verifiable. I am directing this point of order at the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, Mr Chinga Miyutu.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

At the time that you raised your point of order, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central had already concluded his debate and he was seated, and the hon. Member for Mpika Central was the one debating. So, your point of order has been overtaken by events.

Let us make progress because we do not have much time.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, who is requesting this House to urge the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) regulations to, among others, expand the utilisation of the CDF to tertiary education.

First and foremost, Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Members of Parliament of the Patriotic Front (PF) party for finally acknowledging that the CDF is very important to the development of the constituencies. On the Floor of this House, our hon. Colleagues opposed the vote for the CDF, arguing that the Government would not be able to fund it. The record is clear on that. So, I thank them so much for appreciating that fact.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I have listened attentively to my hon. Colleagues who indicated that the President of the Republic of Zambia made comments pertaining to the CDF. They also mentioned the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. If they are aware that the Government is aware of the issues surrounding the CDF, why would they come here and urge it on the same issue?

Mr Nkombo: Imagine!

Mr Mwiimbu: According to the definition of ‘urge’, it is to persistently ask a person or an individual to do something. Now, if the people one is urging are aware of the things one wants them to do? Why urge? This is being done when our colleagues are aware that the Government is aware and doing something about the CDF. It, therefore, follows that this Motion is mischievous, frivolous, vexatious, thin and hazy.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The intention is to mislead the public into thinking that the Patriotic Front (PF) cares more than the Government that provided the funding for the CDF, which they opposed.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we, …

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: … as the Government –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let me just give guidance.

Hon. Member for Chitambo, you were given the opportunity to debate, and the hon. Minister is responding. You debated and were given –

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I meant the hon. Member for Lunte.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can both hon. Members resume their seats, please. Let me say something.

Mr Mwiimbu and Mr Kafwaya resumed their seats.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We have important business on the Floor of this House which we need to attend to with the seriousness that it deserves. We are not going to squander time by raising unnecessary points of order. So, let the hon. Minister continue debating. You were given the opportunity, hon. Members, to debate. So, let him debate and then after that we vote. Then the matter will be closed. It is now 1614 hours. So, we do not have much time.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, you cannot urge someone to do something when that person knows the issue and has decided to intervene and resolve it. It is not necessary to do that.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema, the President of the Republic of Zambia, who is in charge of the Government, has directed the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to address particular issues pertaining to the CDF. Hence, you cannot come to this House and start questioning the intention and directive of the President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, as far as we are concerned, Madam Speaker, we –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, debate through the Chair.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, through you, the President of the Republic of Zambia is firmly in control over issues pertaining to the CDF, and guidance has been given to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. The hon. Minister was supposed to issue a ministerial statement on the Floor of this House pertaining to the intentions of the Government vis-à-vis the CDF. So, there is no need for anyone to urge the Government to amend the CDF Guidelines.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: As far as we are concerned, we are not going to allow this Motion, which is not intended to smoothen the procedures pertaining to the CDF. We will not vote for it. Instead, we will proceed as per the guidance of His Excellency, who is the Head of the Government, on the issues that have been raised. So, we will proceed as per the guidance, not as per the urging of our PF hon. Colleagues to amend the CDF Guidelines.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to respond to the Private Member’s Motion moved by Hon. Yotam Mtayachalo, who is proposing that we amend the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Guidelines to, among other things, expand the utilisation of the fund to tertiary education.

Madam, I wish to state that I do not support this Motion and that the Government does not support it because, clearly, it is completely misplaced and seeks only to do one thing, and that is to undermine the authority of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships Board (HELSB).

Madam Speaker, allow me to remind this august House that in line with the Constituency Development Fund Act No. 11 of 2018, the objective of the CDF is to provide resources that are appropriated by Parliament for purposes of implementation of projects within the constituencies. As we are all aware, the scope was previously limited to community projects.  However, starting in 2022 and the Budget thereof, to address the issues around education for vulnerable learners, youths, women, vulnerable people in the communities and unemployed constituents, and to actualise the Decentralisation Policy via devolution, our Government increased the CDF amount to the figure that you already know. The increase was met with a lot of resentment from the very people who are singing the song of providing direction on the utilisation of this fund. These are, in common language, known as toxic superstars.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, whether one likes it or not –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, just moderate your language as you describe –

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw the term “toxic superstars”, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, whether one likes it or not, nine months after forming the Government, we are still in the transition period, and there is no doubt that there are too many things that we found upside down that we are trying to put right. So, where is our colleagues’ rush to give direction to a process that they were never part of and never intended to even fulfil coming from? When the CDF was at K1.6 million, this country went for three, if not more, years without its being disbursed. Why do they want to claim superstardom this time around?

Madam Speaker, we can never ignore what we cherish the most, and that is attending to the vulnerable people I mentioned in my earlier submission. Therefore, the intention on skills development is for our human beings in this country, whom we, as the Government, recognised when we stepped in, because one of the biggest problems we have in this country is that of unemployment. We decided that alongside employing a whooping 30,000 teachers and 11,000 nurses and frontline medical staff in the first year, we were not going to leave behind those people who did not get the chance to be in a conventional classroom; we decided to give them opportunities to survive by their hands, thereby advancing the idea of artisanship and skills, which my colleagues already brought up.

Madam Speaker, notwithstanding what I mentioned earlier about the HELSB and intentions to undermine it, let us just be very clear that this is unsustainable. The mover of this Motion did not even give us a road map on how the learners are going to be identified. Who will do that? Is it he? This the reason, as one hon. Member here indicated, the relevance of hon. Members of Parliament is being undermined in the constituencies; they want to assume roles that are clearly not theirs. I was told that people line up in Nkana Constituency, or is it Kwacha, Hon.  Mpundu’s constituency, presenting credentials of how they want to go to school. Where in the world has it been the job of a Member of Parliament, at his/her personal level, to start enrolling students? That is a job of the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: If there is extra money for skills training, as our colleagues are claiming now – How many of my colleagues have schools that are all furnished with desks in their constituencies? Some children still sit on the floor. For goodness’ sake, we will support universal education, and I mean complete universal education, whereby a child, like it happened when I was in Grade 1 in 1972, will find a desk, a uniform and books because the formative years of an individual are from five to about thirteen. We want to carry everyone along. The issue that my colleagues are pushing, unfortunately, is not sustainable, and there is no road map or system.

Madam Speaker, let us not mix up guidelines and the bottlenecks. The President has been very clear about the existence of bottlenecks, some of which are anchored on legislation. We need to change some laws. For instance, some hon. Members have been arguing that it should not be Mr Nkombo to approve CDF projects. I did not put that requirement in place; it is embedded in the law, and Nkombo will not be a Minister for life. One day, another person from another party will be the Minister, and will be charged with the responsibility of approving those projects.

Madam Speaker, in response to Hon. Chitotela, we decided that the ministries of Local Government and Rural Development; Technology and Science; Small and Medium Enterprise Development; and Youth, Sports and Arts are going to collaborate to make this programme successful. The Ministry of Technology and Science is going to provide the know-how on technical education vocational and entrepreneurship training (TEVET), the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development is going to provide a vehicle for people to establish co-operatives and small businesses, and the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Art is targeting the youths who, for a long time, have been ignored by those who were there before us. Someone says only one person must be responsible, but we are one Cabinet and one Government.

Madam Speaker, on expenditure and approvals, I want to set the record straight by saying that as I am speaking to this august House, there is no single CDF file that is pending on my desk. However, it is also true that some hon. Members in this House, and they know themselves, only brought the CDF Committees and Ward Development Committees (WDCs) for approval one month ago. How do they expect us to move at aerodynamic speed when some hon. Members of Parliament from both the left and the right submitted the committees in November, last year? Where were they? So, let us all just work together. When our colleagues feel that we must do something, they should come so that we can sit down and agree on whether it is workable or not.  

Madam Speaker, the guidelines that are being referred to were formulated after wide consultations, and I want to say that the biggest input came from an ad hoc Committee of this House that spent not two weeks, but three weeks with staff in my ministry to scrutinising the content of the guidelines. We agreed, in no uncertain terms, to be part of the CDF Committees together with certain members of our society, and I shall soon come to make that which the Government desires regular by legislation; to include, for instance, three members of the community to entrench the decentralisation agenda, and representatives of the Government at district level, those being the District Commissioners (DCs). I will bring that here, and I will seek your support.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, you can hear from the murmurs that some hon. Members of Parliament think that the CDF is money for improving their standing in their constituencies. However, for them to improve their standing in their constituencies, they should perform the role of Member of Parliament; they should not pretend that they can generate money because this is Government money and, currently, the Government is run by the United Party for National Development (UPND).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who have debated this Motion, both those for and against it. I think, out of eleven, three debated against it, which is a clear indication that this is a very popular Motion.

Madam Speaker, education is the best equaliser, and I think that the people of Zambia have seen the way we have debated this Motion. let us not pretend that we are not under pressure coming from our respective constituencies.

Madam Speaker, countries that have invested more in education have prospered, and that is why, today, countries like Singapore and Malaysia have achieved a lot. We are aware of the fact that accessing loans under the HELSB has been very difficult. One student even committed suicide at UNZA because she was not given a bursary.

Madam Speaker, I urge this Government to understand that this is not a controversial Motion at all; it is a Motion that cuts across political affiliations, and it is important that in this august House, we do not take partisan lines as we debate issues of national interest. This has been the call from our people. So, I urge this august House to think twice and support this Motion. I believe that if this Motion goes through, that will lessen the burden on the HELSB, because very few students are able to access the loans. We have heard people talk about the budgetary allocation and urge the Government to increase it, but we are told that cannot be done because of budgetary constraints.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chama North are extremely disappointed that this Motion has not been supported by the Executive. After all, I even consulted some people on your right and they accepted that the Motion was progressive. So, I am surprised that, today, people have made a U-turn. This is quite unfortunate.

Hon. UPND Member: No! Stop accusing us.

Mr Mtayachalo: However, the people of Zambia are the best judges, and they will judge those who are against many children. As hon. Members of Parliament, we have been confronted by a number of challenges. Children come to cry in our offices because they cannot access bursaries under the HELSB. Meanwhile, there are excess funds under the CDF. Surely, why can we not help the deserving children? For example, we shall spend less than K1 million on boarding secondary schools and skills training in Chama North. So, the remaining K4 million can be used to sponsor vulnerable children in Katangalika and Kapingizya.  This is a very sad development.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, it is good that the Executive has acknowledged the bottlenecks in the administration of the CDF. Yes, the hon. Minister said a Committee was put in place, but there has been too much confusion and several circulars from the ministry that are confusing the principal officers, and that is why things are not moving. So, I urge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to resolve the bureaucratic obstacles. As I was coming here, a man of God asked me why it is as difficult to access the CDF as it is for a camel to enter the eye of the needle. So, my advice to this Government is that this bureaucracy will take us nowhere. We are in June and, if we do not resolve these bottlenecks – For example, why should disaster management activities require clearance from the Attorney-General’s Office or the Treasury? Surely, do we have to wait for three months even on emergencies like buying of chalk boards and repairing of blown-off roofs? I do not think that –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.  

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker. A very serious one.

It is a technical point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order!

We are in the process of voting. So, let us not interrupt the voting. Let us finish voting then –

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I have a problem with the gadget, and that is why I am raising a technical point of order. I remember Hon. Mwiimbu raising this issue the time we were voting, and this is also a technical issue that I am raising.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The information and communication technology (ICT) officers are aware of all the challenges and will address them as and when they arise. So, please, bear with us.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the challenge has nothing to do with ICT. On my gadget, it is showing that forty-three voted ‘Yes’ and fifty-eight voted ‘No’ while the gadget for the hon. Member for Lukashya shows forty-two and fifty-two for ‘Yes’ and ‘No’, respectively. How?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

We were all born before computers. I think, I was also very fast because it is my first time to use this process. It appears, hon. Members voted before the system opened. So, in order to deal with this issue, all hon. Members will be logged out and then we will start afresh. My sincere apologies.

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Business was suspended from 1645 until 1705 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam Speaker: When Business was suspended, the House was considering the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Chama North that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education, and the House was about to start voting. The House will now continue with the voting process.

Before we continue, do all hon. Members have their gadgets? Can we have an indication of the hon. Members who do not have their gadgets so that they can be assisted.

Some hon. Members indicated that they did not have their gadgets.

Silence

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: What has happened? What is the point of procedure?

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the doors are still open.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: They have not yet said the doors – We are starting the whole process afresh. So, do not worry. At some point, the doors will definitely be closed.

Silence

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: What has happened?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I am getting concerned. According to the procedures of this House, when a division is called, there is a time that is prescribed within which the vote should take place. However, from the look of things, people are accessing the e-Chamber on their mobile phones. How are we going to authenticate the result of the vote?

Interruptions 

Mr Mung’andu: Listen!

What if I have two or three phones? It is possible for one person to vote three or four times. Parliament gave us gadgets and, if some people do not have their gadgets, they should not participate in voting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mung’andu: It is a serious concern, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, your concerns have been taken note of. However, it is not possible to vote on a private phone. All the hon. Members are going to use the gadgets provided by Parliament, and that is why I asked for the hon. Members who do not have their gadgets to indicate so that they can be assisted. So, the hon. Members who do not have their gadgets should indicate so that they may be provided with institutional gadgets for purposes of voting only. After that, the gadgets should be handed back.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics was just mocking me by showing me the e-Chamber on his phone and saying, “Here is the e-Chamber”. So, we are really getting worried.

Madam Speaker: No, do not worry.

Mr Kapyanga: Fyalishitisha.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We are just about to start voting.

Mr Kapyanga: Tayali alishitisha.

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: On whom, hon. Member for Chilubi? 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my point of order is anchored on Standing Order No. 151.

Madam Speaker, I do not know which bell we will recognise, because Standing Order No. 151(3) prescribes that five minutes after the bell has rang, the doors should be closed. However, the doors have been open for some time now.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chilubi, if you were listening, you heard the hon. Member for Lumezi raise the same point, and I guided that we have not yet started the process. We are just ensuring that hon. Members have their gadgets. When we are sure that all the hon. Members have their gadgets, then, we will start the process. So, just be patient. It is the first time we are doing this, and we are all learning. Please, just hold your fire.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether people are now trying to fill in the spaces, like playing a song during a radio programme when there is nothing to do. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Lumezi wants to be that song.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you kindly, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, my concern is that you, as Parliament, bought us gadgets, but it is possible that some people sold them and bought tyres in their constituencies. Could you, please, reprimand Hon. Tayali.

Madam Speaker: What did I say? It is entertainment time.

Thank you very much, hon. Member for Lumezi.

Hon. Member: Point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Inaudible

Madam Speaker: You will discuss when you go outside.

Silence

Madam Speaker: Order!

I put the question.

The question is that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education.

The House will vote electronically using the e-Chamber. For purposes of voting, please, ensure that you all log out of the e-Chamber. Have we all logged out?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: Anybody with challenges?

Next, please, log in to the e-Chamber.

Hon. Members logged in, some with the assistance of information and communication technology (ICT) staff.

Madam Speaker: Any hon. Member with challenges in logging in?

Hon. Member: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Who has a challenge?

Can we proceed.

Madam Speaker: Are we all logged in?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: When you hear, the paging sound, the vote has opened and the voting screen is displayed on your communication unit.

Paging sound rang.

Madam Speaker: Are we all there? No voting yet. Follow the instructions.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Select the “Present” key on top.

On the top right side of the screen, you will see the words “Please cast your vote”. Have we seen that?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: Select one of the options, “Yes”, “No”, or “Abstain”.

Once you have selected one of the options, you will see the words “Vote has been cast” on the right side of the screen. Have we all seen that?

Any hon. Members having a challenge?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

When you hear the second paging sound, the vote will close after one minute.

Paging sound rang.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker. The figures are not adding up.

Hon. Government Members: Can we progress!

Madam Speaker: Order!

It is just an IT issue. You know these things of computers. Let us wait.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

I think, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science has a lot of work to do for all of us. We have just encountered a technical problem. So, we have to do the process all over again.

Sincere apologies.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: So, can we start the process again. I will start with the question.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon Members!

I put the question, and the question is that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education.

The House will vote electronically using the e-chamber. Please, ensure that you log out of your e-Chamber.

Can we all log out.

Have we all logged out?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: To start the process afresh, can we now log in.

Have we logged in?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam Speaker: When you hear the paging sound, it means that the vote has opened and the voting screen will be displayed on your communication unit.

Paging sound rang.

Madam Speaker: Select the “Present” key on top.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: On top.

Let us follow the instructions. Maybe, we will be successful.

On the top right side of the screen, you will see the words “Please cast your vote”. After you select the “Present” key, which is in blue, you can cast your vote.

Select one of the options, “Yes”, “No” or “Abstain”. Once you have selected –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us listen to instructions. Otherwise, we will not be able to vote.

Once you have selected one of the options, you will see the words “Vote has been cast” on the right side of the screen.

Have we all voted.

Hon. Members: Not yet.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us vote fast and finish before the system gives up on us again. Have we all voted?

Mr Katambo: Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: Which hon. Member is speaking?

Mr Katambo: Hon. Katambo from Masaiti, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the “Present” button is not working. The gadget is frozen.

Madam Speaker: Have you been updating your e-Chamber?

Mr Katambo: Madam Speaker, magic has been done, thank you very much. I have cast my vote.

Madam Speaker: All right.

Let us do it quickly before the vote closes. When you hear the paging sound, the vote will close after one minute.

Paging sound rang.

Madam Speaker: You have just voted.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, there is still a problem. We are still getting different figures here.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, just bear with us. The Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly is taking note of how the voting is happening.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, voting has closed, and the results are as follows: –

Hon. Opposition Member: Madam Speaker, we still have a problem with this voting system because even the numbers are not tallying. The number of votes cast –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, that is a technical issue that will be attended to. Let us close this session. The voting is closed, and I need to announce the results.

Question that this House urges the Government to urgently amend the 2022 Constituency Development Fund Guidelines to, among others, expand the utilisation of the funds to tertiary education put and the House voted.

(DIVISION LIST)

Ayes – (54)

Noes – (79)

Abstentions – (0)

Question negatived.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, an objection.

Madam Speaker, the figures I have on my screen show the there are 131 hon. Members present, out of whom fifty-one voted ‘Aye’ and sixty-nine voted ‘No’.

Madam Speaker, we all logged in at the same time. However, Hon. Kafwaya’s tablet, which I have here, shows that 134 hon. Members are present and that seventy-seven of them voted ‘No’, fifty-two voted ‘Aye’ and one abstained. Hon. Mung’andu’s tablet shows that 134 are present, seventy-seven voted ‘No’, fifty-two voted ‘Aye’ and one abstained.

Madam Speaker, I hope you are taking note, because this is a petition.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

Your concerns have been noted. However, voting has been closed and the results have been declared. The concerns that you have raised are technical. So, kindly put them in writing, and they will be investigated. We need the business to proceed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are only going to concede to that guidance if you accept that our petition will be sustained, because we have petitioned, and our grounds of petition are here. So, whilst we have the grounds of petition with us, we want you to assure us that these grounds will be taken into account. Then, we will be at peace. Otherwise, we cannot accept an election result with so many distortions.

Madam Speaker: They will definitely be taken into account, hon. Member. We are using technology, and there will be printouts. Maybe, you can even save the results. Make a printout and then make a presentation.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are ready to wait. We also want to be guided on the Standing Orders on which these election results have been declared. Otherwise, we may need to suspend this result until we are clear on the voting process that will be opened.

Interruptions

Dr Kalila: You can go to court, hon. Member.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, voting is about the results announced being credible and acceptable to all.  We have petitioned this election, and we are on the ground.

Dr Kalila: Hon. Kampyongo, go to court.

Mr Kampyongo: The court is here.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us make progress. Let us not go into the issues of ‘Chitulika Ward’ or whatever ward that was.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: That is on a lighter note.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Question!

That is my village.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The results have been announced and declared. Let us make progress.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is not our intention to be unnecessarily problematic. This is the first time we are using this system and, if we cannot get the process right now, it will cause us trouble in the future. We have been using a system that shows elections on the screen, and there has never been any dispute. That is what we are used to. This is the first time we are having distorted results and, if we do not correct the system now, it is going to give us problems in the near future. We want to things clarified now.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: Go and get a court order. You can go to the Constitutional Court (Con. Court).

Madam Speaker: Order!

I think, now, we are not supposed to engage one another. The results have been declared, and I have guided that the issue will be looked at. The fact that something has happened now and we have noticed that there are problems gives more work to our ICT Department. The situation must be corrected. Even if we sit here and argue or do whatever, the problem will not be sorted out.

Hon. Members, you observed that even for the voting process, we had to do it twice but, still, there were anomalies. That means the system we are using is not reliable. So, the ICT Department will work on it.

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, we have to make progress. Otherwise, now, it will be a situation in which I say something and you also say something. Let us sort this issue out later, and you have my undertaking that the matter will be looked into and ironed out.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, if we may be allowed to consult among ourselves so that we place ourselves on record properly.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members have the right to consult but, in the meantime, business will proceed.

Hon. PF Members left the Assembly Chamber.

Dr Kalila: These ‘guys’! You will be suspended again.

Hon. UPND Member: No. I think, they have sought permission.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Can we make progress.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Monday, 6^th June, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, in carrying out its duties, your Committee was guided by its terms of reference as set out in Standing Orders 197(j) and 198.

Madam Speaker, Zambia has a long history of mining and is endowed with vast mineral wealth. The minerals found in Zambia include copper, cobalt, gold, nickel, lead, silver, uranium, zinc and numerous precious and semi-precious stones, such as emeralds and tourmaline. Further, the mining sector is a significant source of Government revenue and employment, and attracts a large amount of foreign direct investment (FDI). However, since Independence, reference to the mining sector in Zambia has been skewed towards copper production to the neglect of the other minerals that the country is endowed with. In view of this, your Committee undertook a study dubbed ‘Economic Diversification: The Case of the Zambian Mining Sector’.

Madam Speaker, the findings of your Committee are contained in the report, and I am very confident that hon. Members read the report and took time to appreciate the submissions from stakeholders and your Committee’s observations and recommendations therein. I will, therefore, highlight only some of the issues in the report.

Madam Speaker, as I have already stated, the country has a wide array of mineral resources. Unfortunately, it appears to have failed to reap benefits from the other minerals and continues to rely heavily on copper as the country’s mainstay. Given this rich endowment of mineral resources, a number of stakeholders, including investors, Government agencies and civil society organisations (CSOs), have long questioned why minerals are not accruing as much benefit as they should to the country. Further, over the years, successive Governments have acknowledged the fact that the country is rich in other mineral resources in spite of its continued heavy reliance on the copper mining sector. As a result of this acknowledgement, successive Governments have made pronouncements to the effect that the country will diversify the mining sector so as to grow the non-copper mining sub-sector. However, the pronouncements have, to date, not been implemented.

Madam Speaker, a perusal of production and export figures from the mining sector shows that the dominance of copper has remained the same for many years. Compared to copper, the other minerals have not been prioritised due to inadequate exploration, insufficient marketing of reserves and products, and failure to effectively integrate the mining sector through forward and backward linkages with other sectors of the economy in development plans.

One of the issues that stakeholders expressed concern on is the extent to which the country has been geologically surveyed, Madam Speaker. your Committee notes, with disappointment, that fifty-eight years after Independence, only a little over 50 per cent of the country has been geologically mapped and surveyed. The importance of geological mapping to the growth of the non-copper mining sector cannot be overemphasised, as it spurs investment in exploration and, consequently, in mining. In light of this, your Committee strongly urges the Government to ensure that the rest of the country is geologically mapped and surveyed as soon as possible. Your Committee is aware of the fact that surveying of the country has been hampered by poor funding to the Geological Survey Department (GSD) in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and, therefore, hopes that this situation will receive the attention it requires.

Madam Speaker, another issue that attained prominence during your Committee’s deliberations is the country’s mining tax regime. Stakeholders lamented that Zambia’s mining tax regime has been characterised by frequent policy changes and reversals. Your Committee is concerned that the unstable regime makes it difficult for investors to make accurate projections of returns on their investments, which may prove to be detrimental to the growth of the non-copper mining sub-sector. In light of this, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that at the very minimum, a stable fiscal regime with in-built flexibility is designed to both automatically capture increased Government revenue when mineral prices rise and reduce the tax burden on mining firms during periods of low prices without requiring frequent legislative changes.

Madam Speaker, if the country is to reap maximum benefits from the mining sector as a whole and the non-copper mining sub-sector in particular, there is a need to ensure that value addition is integrated into the sector, as that will create a significant competitive advantage for the country and contribute to economic development.

Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government takes a holistic approach to developing the mining value chain. This includes strategies like imposing levies on the export of unprocessed minerals, reducing the general cost of doing business, ensuring a reliable supply of energy, setting up adequate infrastructure, providing suitable incentives for setting up of processing plants to ensure value addition, and facilitating access to markets. Additionally, the Government should provide a suitable regulatory framework that emphasises local content and increased participation by local investors.

Madam Speaker, as part of its programme of work, your Committee undertook site visits to a number of mines, both small-scale and large-scale, and was disheartened to see the state of the communities in which some of the mines are located. A case in point is the deplorable state of the communities around some of the mines in Lufwanyama District, which houses Africa’s two largest emerald mines. The impact that a well-executed corporate social responsibility (CSR) can have in the communities in which mines are situated should not be underestimated. In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to continue engaging mining investors on the need to give back to communities from which they take to improve the lives of the local people.

Madam Speaker, I wish to point out that the country’s traditional leadership plays a pivotal role in the non-copper mining sector. Your Committee is, therefore, confident that the roles of those custodians of our country will not be overlooked in all investment initiatives.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I, on behalf of your Committee’s members, express the Committee’s gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations. The Committee is further indebted to all the stakeholders who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary briefs.

I thank you for your kind attention and I beg to move, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members entered the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: I welcome our hon. Members who went to consult. I hope, they have consulted sufficiently, and I am grateful that they are back in the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Sefulo: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion urging the House to adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table on 6^th June, 2022.

 Madam Speaker, in seconding this very important Motion, I thank the chairperson for ably moving it and guiding the deliberations of your Committee during the session.

Madam Speaker, while the country pursues the path of diversifying the economy, the role of investors is very important. While appreciating that role, however, I wish to point out that it is disheartening to note the poor record of corporate social responsibility (CSR) that your Committee encountered on its visits to mining areas. The low levels of employment of the local people in the areas where mining and activities exploration are taking place is very unacceptable. Your Committee also bemoans the poor record of CSR of large-scale non-copper mining entities. This practice of taking from, and not giving back to, the communities is very regrettable. It is hard to believe that one of the areas your Committee visited hosts two of the world’s largest emerald mines. In view of this challenge, I want to stress your Committee’s recommendation that local people be prioritised for jobs for which they qualify. Your Committee also strongly recommends that as initial discussions for investment are held with potential investors, emphasis be placed on the need for CSR to be part of the operations of the companies. Further, the Government should not shy away from continuously engaging mining companies throughout their operations to ensure that they provide communities with beneficial and appropriate CSR.

Madam Speaker, as all hon. Members are undoubtedly aware, the importance of economic diversification to Zambia’s development cannot be overemphasised. In this regard, while your Committee acknowledges that the Government has, for a number of years, made pronouncements regarding diversification of the mining sector away from the dominance of copper, it cannot stress enough the fact that without co-ordinated and practical solutions, the growth of the non-copper mining sub-sector will not be actualised. In this regard, your Committee hopes that the Executive will take into consideration all the submissions made by the stakeholders. Further, your Committee is confident that the Executive will favourably address all the Committee’s observations and recommendations, and take appropriate actions.

Madam Speaker, one of the things that we learnt as we visited the mines is that the Government also needs to invest in security, which is one of the cardinal aspects, especially, when it comes to emerald mining. We, as a Committee, learnt that the security at the mines was provided by the mines, themselves. In as much as there is police presence, the police officers deployed there are also on the mining companies’ payrolls. Therefore, we urge the Government to invests in security and make sure that Zambia’s interests are taken care of. We also urge the Government to also be involved in the bidding process. We were disheartened to learn that during the process of bidding or inviting the bidders, which is done online now, the Government is not involved, yet the process can earn or cost the Government revenue. So, we urge the Government to invest in that aspect.

Madam Speaker, with those words said, I beg to second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Mufulira this opportunity to contribute to this Motion.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I want to start by thanking you for allowing us the time to consult amongst ourselves, for the manner in which you presided over the elections that were conducted here and for acknowledging that the system we used was not yet reliable, and that it needed to be perfected. That said, we would like to place it on record that we, on this side, have rejected the outcome of that election and that we will not accept to use the same system again until we are comforted that it has been perfected.

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu. Your concerns are noted.

Hon. Members, I am sure, all of us would want to use a system that is reliable. I am also concerned that the system is not reliable, and the ICT Department will be directed to ensure that the system works so that the next time we vote, we do not have these challenges. That said, thank you very much for your understanding.

The hon. Member for Mufulira may continue.

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, I would like to comment on what I observed from the report, which I took time to go through.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I agree with your Committee’s observation and concern with regard to the geographical mapping of the country. The report confirms that only 55 per cent of the country is geographically mapped. We are talking about diversifying the mining sector from its reliance on copper mining, and we need to have information of where the minerals other than copper are, in the breadth and width of our country. So, this is a very important observation. So, I hope that the Executive will address it and allocate the necessary resources to this area.

Madam Speaker, on page 10, the report gives concerning facts about the number of people in this country who have been employed in the mining sector between 2012 and 2020 and shows how the numbers have been declining significantly. Looking at what has been happening in the sector between 2012 and 2020 – After privatisation, we see that the mines moved away from being Zambian-owned to being owned by private investors, and we all know that private investors’ interest is profit maximisation, not employment creation. So, even now, if the direction we take is to give the mines to private investors, my worry is that the numbers, which are already low, will go down further. So, we should expect more people to lose employment in the mining sector if the mines will go into private hands. What we need to do is empower Zambians to own mines because when the mines are owned by our Government or local people who have Zambians’ interests at heart, jobs will be protected. What is on page 10 with regard to the drop in the numbers of workers in the mining sector is a worrying report.

Madam Speaker, on page 13 of the report, there are figures on how much the country has benefited in terms of the Mineral Royalty Tax, and you will see that from 2011 to 2021, the Government has been increasingly collecting revenue through the Mineral Royalty Tax. In fact, in the last ten years, the Government collected the highest amount, in terms of the Mineral Royalty Tax, in 2021, and that contributed K9.9 million to the Treasury. This tells me that the Government’s policy with regard to the handling of the Mineral Royalty Tax has been positive for the country. The worry is over the change in the tax, whereby we are now going to lose it as a result of the pronouncement that this Government made. I think, we have to maintain what is good; we do not need to fix what is not broken.

Madam Speaker, clearly, on page 13, the statistics show that in the last ten years, the country has been benefiting from increased collection of the Mineral Royalty Tax. So, I hope, when the next Budget is presented, the Government will reconsider the abolition of the tax because we have lost something we had in hand, as demonstrated on page 13.

Madam Speaker, on page 23 of the report, your Committee talks about the impediments to growing the non-copper mining sub-sector. One of the impediments that have been brought out is that of limited intermediate mining courses. At the back of my mind the fact that today, we talk about skills development. This report highlights the fact that in Zambia, there are courses to do with mining at the degree level and above, but there is a problem with artisanal or small-scale mining in which our people have no skills or knowledge. All the people do is find a bush, clear it and start mining.

Madam Speaker, we have the opportunity now, even using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), insofar as skills development is concerned, and I implore the Government to look at this as an opportunity, to guide our youths who are enrolling for skills development. The Government should work with training institutions to come up with short-term courses that will enable our youths to train in whatever mining programme that they may want so that when they have the opportunity to run small mines, they would have undergone training on how to handle mining opportunities that come their way. As things stand, our people are managing small-scale mines with no knowledge of how to go about it, and what we are seeing is not an organised sector. In some cases, we have even witnessed tragedies like deaths because our people do not have the skills. We can apply part of the CDF to short-term training to enable our youths to take short courses in mining so that we promote skills development in this sector. That way, we will promote this topical issue that was being considered by your Committee, which is the diversification of our mining industry from copper.

Madam Speaker, with those comments, I wish to place it on record that I support this Motion.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important debate on the Floor right now, which is on the report that has been brought to this House by the …

Madam Speaker, I am sorry, and I seek your indulgency. I have a problem breathing. Can I speak without the mask?

Madam Speaker indicated assent. 

Mr Mukosa: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this report that has been presented by the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I support this report, and I congratulate the Committee that sat to deliberate on these important issues because the report makes observations and recommendations that I agree with.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the lack of diversification in the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, the Zambian Government has not successfully championed the agenda of diversification in the mining sector. In Zambia, there are different minerals, not just copper. The fact that we have not exploited the other minerals has contributed partly to the country’s having the fiscal deficit that we have had year in and year out.

Madam Speaker, I wonder why the Zambian youths and the youths of Chinsali in particular should be suffering and remain unemployed when, as a country, we are blessed with various natural resources apart from copper. In Chinsali, Shiwang’andu and Luapula Province, there are vast deposits of manganese, which are now being exploited mainly by informal miners. In an event that the Government championed the agenda to diversify the mining sector, we would have a situation in which companies would mine manganese, iron and other minerals in the areas that I have mentioned. Thus, people in those areas can be employed, and there are many professionals, such as accountants and economists who are looking for employment today. They have qualifications and graduated from different schools, but they cannot find employment because we are not helping them by exploiting the untapped opportunity in the minerals that have not been exploited.

Madam Speaker, the other reason we are failing to diversify the mining sector is that we have left this important agenda to the private sector. The previous speaker mentioned that the first objective of any business is to make profit and that the second is to ensure that the profit is maximised. So, if we leave diversification in the mining sector to be driven by the private sector, we will have a situation in which business houses and the private sector will just be going for the minerals that are easy to access and where there are incentives. Currently, the Government provides many incentives to those who want to invest in copper compared to those who want to invest in other minerals. So, perpetually, we will have people who want to invest in copper. Therefore, there is a need for the Government to take the leading role and, if possible, even establish companies to exploit other minerals apart from copper. Currently, I know that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) owns Kabundi Mineral Resources and Ndola Lime. Those two are the only mining companies that are 100 per cent State-owned.

Madam Speaker, there is the notion that a government cannot participate actively in the mining sector because it needs to concentrate on the role of being a regulator, but I strongly disagree with it. As I stated, there are two mining companies that are 100 per cent State-owned, and Kabundi Mineral Resources is projected to start performing well. Then there is a very big State-owned mining company in Chile that is performing very well and generating a lot of money for the Government of Chile. Further, in China, there are more than eight big mining companies that are 100 per cent owned by the Chinese Government. So, the idea that we do not support is practiced by countries like China and those countries are generating a lot of money. We rush to go and borrow part of that money and they are lending it to us. So, I strongly suggest that the Government considers establishing more companies that can specifically go into mining minerals other than copper, such as coal. In the Southern Province, there are vast coal deposits, but the people of the province are suffering like those in many other parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, the Government needs to make some improvements at the Cadastre Unit because there is a problem there, which is that most mining companies are obtaining licences for speculative purposes. When a serious miner wants to invest in mining activities, he finds the area that he is interested in already taken by a company that is not serious and has the licence for speculative purposes only. That is a serious problem that the Government needs to deal with. The Government should also ensure that there is transparency at the Cadastre Unit.

Madam Speaker, it also saddens me to read the revelation in this report that 50 per cent of the country has not been geologically mapped and surveyed. How can we promote investment in the non-copper mining sector? It can be very difficult. So, the Government needs to sponsor geological mapping and survey activities.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I am, indeed, humbled to contribute to the debate on this report. I would like, from the outset, to also thank the hon. Independent Member of Parliament for Nkana for presenting this report to the House, and the seconder, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi.

Madam Speaker, when I was reading this report, I remembered an African magazine that my father once gave me to read. I do not intend to stray off the debate, but the magazine talked of a country in Africa with so many deposits, and my father described it as a geological embarrassment.

Madam Speaker, pages 6 to 9 of the Committee’s report talk about inconsistency in mining policies, and our country has succeeded in one thing: being consistently inconsistent in the mining sector. That is one of the biggest challenges we have had. When I look at the New Dawn Government’s mining policy, I support one thing, which is making the Mineral Royalty Tax deductible, because that is the standard practice, and that is what will attract investment. Looking at the mining profile of Africa, the standard practice in mining is what has been done.

Madam Speaker, on pages 39 and 40 of the report, the Committee proposes that we develop the mining value chain. Our country has, for far too long now, been one in which foreign investors get raw materials and take them out of the country. So, what this report proposes, which I support, is that there be processing in this country. Why should we be a country that just has attractive policies when we have no ownership of the mines?

Madam Speaker, Chile is one of the largest producers of copper. The hon. Member of Parliament who is just from debating on the Floor actually pre-empted what I was about to say, which is that Chile has 100 per cent ownership of, at least, one mine so that the Government understands the intricacies of running a mine. However, here, we get excited when a mine says that it will invest US$1.3 billion in the economy of Zambia. There is nothing to be excited about because that investment is just equipment written ‘Abnormal load’ that comes into this country without direct benefits for the people. So, there is a need for the current mining policy to be adjusted to include what is being proposed here. We must have a mining value chain. Currently, copper is mined and exported to China then it comes back to Zambia as copper wire. Zambian builders – and we boast of infrastructure development – buy finished products whose raw materials come from this country.

Madam Speaker, as regards the ownership structure, a person who owns less than 50 per cent of a mine has no right to say that he/she is benefitting from the mine because, first of all, he/she is not running any mine 100 per cent. So, how does he/she know the profit that should be declared? We have had several unverified reports of lack of proper declarations from big mining companies.

Madam Speaker, without a mining value chain, we cannot sit at the table and discuss development of this country. We now have gold in Kasenseli. That gold leaves the country and is processed somewhere else. Why can we not attract investment by creating manufacturing and processing industries in the country? The trajectory of inconsistent policies that this report talks about is the result of the hell-bent desire to attract investors who just want to mine raw materials.

Madam Speaker, the investment in the mining sector has yielded nothing and, as a country, we have nothing to show. We remain in distress financially, and this report talks about our desire for the International Monetary Fund (IMF) bailout. Imagine, there are all these different minerals that have been enumerated here, such as gold, lead, iron, diamonds, manganese and nickel but, today, the country is still on its knees financially. So, there is a need for the mining policy in this country to look at developing active industries. The industries do not need to be big, but there needs to be a clear direction and a desire to begin processing minerals locally. If other countries are doing it, what is wrong with our country? Why are we just interested in investors who will just export our minerals?

Madam Speaker, I would like to place it on record that the good people of Nalolo support this report, which says that only 50 per cent of the country has been geologically mapped and surveyed, and that is one of the saddest stories that can ever be told of a country that has been independent for over fifty years. Surely, in the whole of the Western Province, how can there be no mining when just across in Angola there is oil? There must be something fundamentally wrong in respect of having a holistic approach to the mining sector by the previous Government, and this is an opportunity for the New Dawn Government to harness the real potential of this country. We, the people of Nalolo, are not excited about the talk of investment coming in because it is not our investment. We must take ownership of the investment drive instead of encouraging investment that creates temporary jobs and, after the resource is depleted, the investor goes. The investor is here to make money, not here on the basis of charity. Meanwhile, if the investor is here, even if he has a tax holiday, he will surely have a sense of deep ownership. So, the structure of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) needs to be looked at. I do not know whether there is any morally justifiable reason a country like Zambia cannot run a mine, and I do not understand this issue.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this report, I must say that the Committee’s recommendations are good, and I congratulate each hon. Member who sat on the Committee for a job well done. If this country develops a mining value chain, I can assure you, the narrative of economic bailouts will change.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, I wish to place it on record that the report that your Committee has managed to couch out of its engagements is good. It is, indeed, a report that is an eye opener, especially on the goings-on in the mining sector. The topical issue the Committee interrogated was about economic diversification in Zambia’s mining sector.

Madam Speaker, I have noticed that despite the Committee having come up with a very good report, instead of visiting only Lusaka and the Copperbelt, I would have loved it to have visited Central Province as well because that is a very interesting case, and a very interesting scenario is unfolding in the province, especially in the area between Serenje Town and Chitambo Turnoff, where there are about twelve processing plants for manganese. I thought that a Committee looking at diversification and one that is interested in things being done differently would take very keen interest in what is happening in that area. I also want to take a leaf from the same and urge the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to also start talking about what is happening in that area. He should not just talk about the Black Mountain every day. What is happening in areas like Serenje is what will take this country to another level, not the Black Mountain.

An hon. Member interjected.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, I do not take kindly to people who want to debate whilst seated. They are thinking about football, but also want to debate whilst seated.

Madam Speaker, some of the challenges brought out by the people who interacted with our hon. Colleagues, as contained on pages 19 and 20 of the report, are the lack of transparency in the awarding of licences, illegal mining and a lack of local market for unprocessed minerals, especially non-copper minerals. There is also talk about the highly centralised nature of the licensing procedure, and this is a very important issue. On pages 37 and 38, your Committee brings out these issues again in its recommendations.

Madam Speaker, it is very saddening that a person in Lusaka gives a licence to a mining company in Chitulika Village or in Shangombo District where he has not been. More often than not, an investor arrives at one’s farm with a piece of paper and starts picking up co-ordinates, saying that he is now in charge and owns the land. I believe that the granting of mining licences should be decentralised because it will help our country a great deal more than leaving this huge resource under one office, the Office of the Director of Cadastre. I hear the office has been computerised and that has eased the bottlenecks, but that is far from the truth. It is not the case. So, the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Hon. Kabuswe, can go on record as the first Minister to walk the talk and ensure that our people get licences from their localities rather than travelling to Lusaka and fighting with everybody else.

Madam Speaker, of serious concern is the issue of the benefits from the mining sector, and your Committee has come out very clearly on that. As we know very well, the Mineral Royalty Tax is now deductible, meaning that if a company makes a profit, it can keep the money. However, if it makes a loss, it will deduct the Mineral Royalty Tax that it paid. This is like telling the owner of a shop you are renting that you will only pay rent after making a profit. Things do not work like that when one has already invested. So, the Mineral Royalty Tax must never be deductible, and we ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that we look at this issue before the end of the year. That way, the perpetual loss-making mines will no longer talk about not making any profit. I believe, we can take a leaf from what is happening in Chile and other countries.

Madam Speaker, today, we have seen an advertisement in the newspapers in which a company called Rothschild and Partners has been given six months to evaluate Mopani Copper Mines and then tell us whether the mine is valuable, and what needs to be done about it. Rothschild and Partners is one of the companies that participated in the privatisation of the assets of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) and, today, it has come back. What has changed? The company had said that Zambia’s minerals on the Copperbelt would last only twenty years and they were not worth what had been put on the table. How can this Government, today, bring those characters back?

How can you do that? What are you doing? Where is your conscience? Look at them! How can you do that? That is unacceptable. The Zambian people will not accept this.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Debate through the Chair, please. 

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, I am debating through you.

Madam Speaker, look at them! How can they do such things?

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The topic is very interesting and there are still many hon. Members indicating to debate but, unfortunate, and with my sincere apologies, we have to make progress. So, we move to the other side. 

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to respond to some of the matters that relate to my ministry.

Madam Speaker, in its report for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters raised concerns that fall under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. May I start by thanking your Committee for the immense work it did.

Madam Speaker, I would like to comment on the employment creation contribution of the mining sector, which has been highlighted on page 10.

Madam Speaker, the Committee acknowledged the contribution of the mining sector to the national economy in the report. However, employment is evidently declining in the copper mining sub-sector while increasing in the non-copper mining sub-sector. To encourage growth in the non-copper mining sub-sector, the ministry that has the mandate of labour and employment matters in the country, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, will ensure that the tenets of decent work are adhered to. In addition, it will ensure that the provisions of the Employment Code, Act No. 3 of 2019, which provides for certain employment relations, such as part-time, flexi-time and hourly arrangements, are adhered to by employers. Further, we will work with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to carry out labour inspections like we have done in the past. We, of course, will optimise the inspections in the time to come.

Regarding the informal players in the non-copper mining sub-sector, Madam Speaker, the Government’s effort will centre around formalisation of the sub-sector through the formation of co-operatives, registration of employment contracts and value addition, among other measures. It is anticipated that with such support, the sub-sector will continue to grow and provide decent jobs, especially, to the youth.

Madam Speaker, on casualisation, which is on page 53, the Committee notes the progress that has been made by the Government in addressing it. With regard to the minimum wage for mobile money operators, the Government is yet to promulgate a minimum wage specifically for the information and communication technology (ICT)-related sectors, which include mobile money operators, as it is still awaiting submissions from stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, the ministry is committed to addressing decent work deficits that include casualisation in all sectors of the economy. As indicated earlier, we want to optimise on the number of inspections in sectors that record the highest grievances and petitions to my ministry. So, we will generalise, but we will also focus on the areas that are present the odd point.

Madam Speaker, minimum wages are meant to protect vulnerable workers who, due to different circumstances, are unable to undertake collective bargaining through unions. The ministry's approach is to encourage workers to belong to trade unions through which they can bargain for conditions of service better than what is provided for in the minimum wages. That is an area in which, through our tripartite partners, we are continuously seeking better ways to refine even success.

Madam Speaker, on page 63, the Committee notes the concerns on the progress around the Social Protection Bill. As indicated in the report, the Government decided to not proceed with the Bill in its current form. However, various pieces of legislation on social security will be attended to individually. With those under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, progress has been made with regard to consultations on the Workers Compensations Fund Control Board (Amendment) Bill and the Bill will be submitted to the Cabinet soon.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the National Pensions Scheme Authority (Amendment) Bill, consultations on the penalty rates, whose impact on the financial performance of industries and companies has caused increased public debate, and other amendments have been concluded. However, with regard to the partial withdrawal of pension benefits, another area of great interest to our people, consultations are still under way and actuarial evaluations, which are very important to making informed decisions on the proposed pension reforms, are yet to be undertaken. We are paying the issue due attention with support from the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the World Bank. Once the processes are completed, the House will be updated on the way forward.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I submit that I support the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe) Madam Speaker, from the outset, I thank the Committee for bringing out various issues. This very insightful report gives a synopsis of the current state of affairs in the mining sector, and I must say that this Government is not happy about it and is committed to bringing a breath of fresh air in the sector.

Madam Speaker, two speakers on the Floor of this House have misled the House on the issue of the Mineral Royalty Tax. They have misled –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, it is not our intention to be disturbing our hon. Colleagues from the Executive. However, these reports are well detailed, and we did not have a problem with the hon. Minister who has just finished speaking on the report because she did it correctly and in accordance with the way a Cabinet Minister should respond to a report. The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, again, is referring to copious notes. We want to hear the policy direction in responses to the categorical challenges raised in the report, and there are Directors to prepare the responses to the matters highlighted in the report. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to continue using copious notes instead of a written policy statement that can go on your record? We need this matter corrected so that this House does not turn into a circus.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us try to control our emotions. Before the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development started debating, I observed something between the two sides, but I decided to ignore it. That said, the hon. Minister should have a written statement on the policy of the Government. I do not know if the hon. Minister does not have a written statement.

Hon. Minister, please, stick to your statement so that you articulate the Government’s policy on the issue of mining.

You may proceed.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I have studied the report, and I am going to respond to specific issues.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kabuswe: Am I protected, Madam Speaker?

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. Member for Pambashe –

Mr Chitotela: Yes, Madam Speaker, I am raising a point of order as a member of your Committee.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Pambashe, I have not recognised you. I said that we should let the hon. Minister conclude, as we are out of time. However, your concerns and observations are noted, and I mentioned that to the Executive.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance and protection.

Madam Speaker, let me repeat what I said in the preamble of my statement, which was that there were some misleading statements on the Mineral Royalty Tax from some hon. Members who were on the Floor. The first was that we have completely removed the tax, which we have not done.

Mr Kapyanga: You have!

Mr Kabuswe: For the other one, I do not even know the kind of explanation I can give because it was very misleading. What this Government has done is allow the Mineral Royalty Tax to be deducted for income tax purposes, meaning that the moment one mines a tonne of ore anywhere, the tax is paid. So, we have not removed the tax. When you begin to calculate –

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Mr Kabuswe: You misled the nation. So, I want to set the record straight.

Mr Kapyanga: Question!

Mr Kabuswe: That is the policy of this Government, and we announced it on the Floor of this House.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order, please!

Can we really have some order so that we come to the end of this business.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, people must not mislead the public on what we have done in terms of the Mineral Royalty Tax, as the tax is still there, except that when calculating the Income Tax, one has to deduct the Mineral Royalty Tax so that we tax the profit.

Madam Speaker, the ministry has embarked on the formulation of a new policy. We just finished undertaking provincial visitations in which we had sittings and people made submissions on the new policy, which we are crafting to address the many challenges that our friends left. The mining sector was left in a mess, and I have continued saying this.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we want to bring sanity to the sector.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we are making –

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela: I rise on a parliamentary –

Madam Speaker: Order!

I do not like hon. Members standing and shouting “Point of order” when they have not been recognised. I have indicated that the hon. Minister is responding to the issues that were raised during the debate. So, I do not know how he could have had a written statement. Would he have anticipated those questions?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I did not get that.

Madam Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition’s microphone is on.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity. We may sound as if we are talking about the same thing.

Madam Speaker, why this –

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mpika Central!

If you continue disrupting the proceedings, you will be requested to leave the Debating Chamber.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Can we have order and not debate whilst seated. Let us allow the Leader of the Opposition to make his point.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, we, the hon. Members on the left, take these reports very seriously and invest a lot of time in going through them. Our expectation, therefore, is that when a Minister stands to debate, he would have equally read the report and taken time to study its contents and, thereby, respond to the specific issues raised. However, if his or her concentration here is merely on responding to what has been said by hon. Members on the Floor of the House, then, there would be some misalignment. Yes, he can touch on some issues raised on the Floor of the House by way of rectification, but that cannot be his main statement on the Floor of this House. What it means for us on this side, in essence, is that we all waste our time reading the reports because we do not get reactions or policy directions from hon. Ministers.

Madam Speaker, it is time this House is taken seriously because it is not about us, but about the people out there. People pay attention to what is being said here, and mining is one of the key sectors of this economy. Therefore, if the hon. Minister is going to take it casually by coming with three pieces of paper and thinking that he has responded sufficiently, that will be unfortunate. He is demonstrating that he is not seriously managing the affairs of this –

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mundubile: That is the position.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mundubile: How else do you want us to interpret that kind of conduct on the part of the hon. Minister?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mundubile: We have had no challenges with the hon. Ministers who have come with policy statements.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Leader of the Opposition!

I do not know what is happening now. We are degenerating into something else, and I expect the leaders from both sides to help in ensuring that there is order in the House. This idea of hon. Members just talking should not be tolerated. Otherwise, no points of order will be recognised.

Further, earlier, I said that when a Minister stands up to debate, he starts by responding to the points that were raised by the other side and then goes to his policy statement. The hon. Minister has just started debating. So, I do not know whether we know what he is going to say and what he is carrying on the table. We are pre-empting his debate. Why can we not give him time to read his statement? Let us all be observant and see whether he has a policy statement at hand.

Sorry, hon. Leader of the Opposition, but I hope that we can proceed.

Mr Mundubile: Well guided, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the point we are making here is that we expect our colleagues on the right to pay a little more attention to these matters, as they are not for academic purposes, but are matters that stakeholders are interested in, and the reaction from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is very important in this case.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The point has been taken, and this is not the last report. We still have more reports to come.

Hon. Ministers, please, take note so that we are not perceived as not being serious with the work we are doing.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Kabuswe: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We are well guided.

Madam Speaker, we are very serious in what we do, and we do not come here to play. We are serious people and we concentrate on what we are doing. However, we need to respond when people spread – I do not want to use the other word – falsehoods on the Floor of the House, misleading the nation on the Mineral Royalty Tax. Many people are misleading the public on this issue when they do not even understand it. So, as Minister, I have to make sure that the country understands exactly what we, as the New Dawn Government, have done insofar as the tax is concerned.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, points were raised about policy. I have just announced that this Government has begun reviewing the mining policy. We just had provincial sittings on the mining policy in Zambia. I was answering to that. That is the policy direction that this country is taking. People also talked about diversification, and I need to explain that because members of the public are listening to this Parliament and need to know whether this Government is diversifying insofar as minerals are concerned in this country.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, we, as the New Dawn Government, understand that Zambia has depended on copper for quite a long time, and we want to diversify. However, anyone who ignores what copper is becoming today will do so at their own peril because it is projected that in the next five or six years, there will be a 10 million tonnes shortage of copper worldwide. So, as Zambia, we have embarked on a programme to explore this country and agreements are already being signed on exploration so that we can map this country, explore it and know the extent of mineralisation. When that is done, we will be able to plan how we are going to ramp up production to 3 million tonnes per year in the next ten years. That is what this Government is doing.

Madam Speaker, people talked about the Cadastre Unit. This Government, through my ministry, shut down the unit and embarked on a programme to check the wrongs in the Cadastre System. We came up with a report, we know the wrongs and we are correcting them. For example, we discovered that one company owns fifty-three licences, which were given in the previous regime, and such are the things that we want to correct. So, we checked the Cadastre System to make sure that it responds to the needs and requirements of this Government insofar as taking the mining sector to its rightful place is concerned.

Madam Speaker, we are not saying that we will leave Zambians behind in terms of investments. We are looking at the number of Zambians benefiting from licences because most licences were given to people who were speculating, and that is why we are looking at the Cadastre System. All these things are being put in the new mining policy, which will be the guide as to where we should take this sector.

Madam Speaker, I also want to respond to the issue of the social licence.

Madam Speaker, this Government emphasises respect for the social license. Most of the time, we have gone to the negotiating table and dealt with people who want to eat with both hands, people who do not have integrity. This New Dawn Government will be intolerant to corruption because we, as people of integrity, want to sit around the table and begin negotiating on behalf of this country, bearing in mind that we are seated on these seats because of the people who elected us and that we are doing whatever we are doing to meet their demands. These are the kind of policies that we want to drive.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to respond.

Madam Speaker, I have policy notes that I will refer to, but it is also our responsibility to answer to the many falsehoods that were put across on this Floor.

Madam Speaker, I thank the Committee for pointing out that taxes have been inconsistent and have been changing every other year, especially in the last ten years. That, indeed, has been counterproductive. What I can tell the nation is that, going forward, taxes will be stable because in the absence of stability, it becomes difficult for any serious investor, whether Zambian or foreign, to invest. So, we will maintain stability, and this is how we plan to move from mining 800,000 metric tonnes to producing 3 million metric tonnes of copper in the next ten years.

Madam Speaker, it is important to create a stable environment. I hear so many of my colleagues here talk about the fact that we are not getting enough from the mining sector. Yes, I agree, but the question is: How do we get more and more out of mining? It is through investments. You cannot expect to maximise your benefits out of any sector, whether it is a restaurant, mine or farm, without looking at how much production you are making. So, our focus is on producing 3 million metric tonnes of copper in the next ten years. Remember that in 1964, we were producing roughly the same amount of copper as we are producing today yet, that time, the population of Zambia was 3 million. Today, at 18 million, the population is six times the population in 1964. So, how do you expect the quantity that you were producing fifty years ago to give you the same benefits? It is illogical. So, the answer is that we must produce more and more, and the tax regime must be carved out in such a way that we produce more and more.

Madam Speaker, I am amazed that we are being accused of bringing investment into the country. By the way, with this stability that we promised, you can already see that within a few months of being in office, pledges of investments are flowing in. For example, First Quantum Minerals Limited approved a US$1.25 billion project, and many others are coming on board. In comparison, in the last ten years, the incompetence of our colleagues across there led to the closing of mines rather than creation of new ones.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, can they tell us how many mines they created in the last ten years.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about inconsistencies in the mining sector, and I want to refer him to page 6 of your report so that we are on the same page as we talk to the people of Zambia.

On page 6, Madam Speaker, on the mining tax regime –  

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, are you debating or raising a point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 demands that we –

Madam Speaker:  No, no!

If you have a point of order, raise it.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: I am raising a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, which provides that our debates here must be factual, and I am referring to your report.

 Madam Speaker, page 6 of your report states that your Committee was informed that Zambia’s mining tax regime has undergone several changes over the years, with the most notable changes coming after privatisation in the early 1990s. While these changes had largely affected copper mining, they also had an impact on the non-copper mining sub-sector. Some of the most notable changes to the country’s mining fiscal regime from the year 2000, as submitted to the Committee, are discussed briefly below.

“a)       Post-Privatisation Regime: 2000-2008 (The Development Agreements Negotiated with Individual Mines at Privatisation)

“After privatisation, agreements were entered into between the Zambian Government and each company that had bought the assets of Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). While these agreements had never been made public by the Government, it appeared –”

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: You wait! We have a report here.

“While these agreements had never been made public by the Government, it appeared that tax rates and other details differed to some extent from one company to the next. In 2008, …”

I assume that the hon. Minister was Minister then,

“… the Government imposed a tax regime –”

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

The point of order that you are raising has not come out, and you are now debating.

Mr Kampyongo: I wanted to bring out the facts, Madam Speaker, so that we are on the same page with the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker: At the rate you are going –

Hon. Member, you are debating. I do not know what the point of order is. Why can you not go straight to the point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: My point of order is that the inconsistency the hon. Minister was referring to started between 2000 and 2008. In 2008, several Acts were enacted, as was one in 2009 when the hon. Minister introduced the Windfall Tax.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to apportion the blame for the inconsistency in the mining sector, in terms of tax, when the record of your report is very clear? Is he in order to apportion that blame to us who only came in after 2011 when the mines were already in trouble?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker, and ask that we stick to the report. That is why I insist that when hon. Ministers debate, they must refer to reports rather than creating things in their minds.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, a point of order, according to our Standing Orders, must be precise and to the point. You, on the other hand, have sufficiently debated the point of order you have raised. Your point of order is, therefore, not admissible.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1912 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 16^th June, 2022.

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