Thursday, 22^nd June, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

MEMBERS COMING LATE FOR SITTINGS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make, and those people who came in after we had sung the National A nthem, please, pay particular attention.

Hon. Members, it has been observed, firstly, that some hon. Members deliberately come late for sittings of the House, both at the start of each sitting and following a health break. The situation has affected the quorum of the House and thereby slowing down the amount of business to transact each day.

Secondly, it has also been observed that some hon. Members have a tendency or have developed a tendency of leaving the House as soon as they log in their credentials into the electronic system.  The sole intention for such conduct appears to be the payment of sitting allowance even though they do not attend the full sitting. Sadly, this practice has also affected Committee meetings.

In view of the above, therefore, and in accordance with Standing Order No. 204(2)(a), which requires hon. Members to be in the House a few minutes before the appointed time for commencement of the sitting of the House and after each health break, attendance registers will continue to be taken both at the start of each sitting and after the health break.

Additionally, hon. Members are urged to desist from merely logging in and, thereafter, leave the House for the rest of the day’s sitting.

I further urge all hon. Members to be punctual.

I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

INCREASED CRIME RATE IN NAKONDE DISTRICT

300. Mr. Simumba (Nakonde) asked the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security:

1. whether the Government is aware that in the last one month, one person was shot dead and others robbed in Nakonde District, which has also recorded an increased crime rate involving residents; and
2. if so, what urgent measures are being taken to maintain law and order in the district.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware of three serious cases that were reported to the Zambia Police Service in Nakonde District for the period beginning 1^st May, 2023 to date. One is a case of murder while the other two are aggravated robbery cases.

In the case of murder, brief facts are that police at Nakonde Police Station on 7^th May, 2023, around 1900 hours, received a report that a forty-eight-year-old male person was attacked, beaten and later dumped in Chiyanga Village in Nakonde District by unknown persons. This occurred on 7^th May, 2023, between 1700 hours and 1900 hours in Chiyanga Village. The victim sustained multiple injuries and was rushed to Nakonde District Hospital, but was pronounced dead upon arrival. Investigations were instituted and are on-going. No arrest has been made yet.

In one of the cases of aggravated robbery, brief facts are that Nakonde Police Station, on 12^th June, 2023, around 0945 hours, received a report in which a thirty-seven-year-old businessman of Kanyama Compound in Lusaka was attacked and robbed of money amounting to K6,000 and other properties valued at K4,900 by several unknown persons. This happened on 12^th May, 2023 around 0700 hours at the Black Market in Chiyanga Village in Nakonde District. The victim sustained general body pains. The police instituted investigations but no arrests have been made yet.

The other case of aggravated robbery occurred on 17^th May, 2023, around 1100 hours at Town Centre near Manyanya Shopping Complex in Nakonde District. Brief facts of the matter are that on 17^th May, 2023, around 1600 hours, Nakonde Police Station received a report in which a Tanzanian national of Chapa Compound of Tunduma District in Tanzania, who is an accountant of Manyanya Group of Companies, reported that he was attacked and robbed of K4 million by five men who were armed with firearms and other implements. Manyanya Group of Companies operates businesses both in Tanzania and Zambia. On the fateful day, the accountant, who was going to ABSA bank in Nakonde to deposit the money, booked a Tanzanian taxi driver who operates between Tunduma and Nakonde Town Centre. After crossing the border, and while on the Great North Road near Manyanya Shopping Complex on the Zambian side, the taxi driver was blocked by a Toyota Allion bearing registration No. AID 7258 that drove from Manyanya Taxi Rank. Five men, two of whom were armed with a firearm each and another one with a hammer, came out of the Toyota Allion and attacked the occupants of the taxi by hitting and firing at the taxi.

The five men managed to rob the accountant of the K4 million which was in two sack bags and sped off in their car. During the incident, two bystanders, one male Zambian, aged thirty-five of Ntembwe Village and a female Tanzanian national suffered bullet wounds and both were rushed to Nakonde District Hospital for treatment. The Tanzanian national was later discharged, while the Zambian was referred to Chinsali General Hospital, where he, unfortunately, succumbed to the wounds. Investigations in the matter were instituted and are ongoing. Police have since recovered two Avtomat Kalashnikova (AK-47) rifles, nineteen rounds of ammunition and the Toyota Allion that were used during the aggravated robbery.

Madam Speaker, the following are the measures being taken to maintain law and order in the district:

1. enhanced visible policing through motorised and foot patrols;
2. increased joint border patrols with the Tanzanian Police along the border;
3. increased sensitisation of community members, including visitors through different platforms on crime matters and security;
4. enhanced intelligence-sharing and increased joint operations among security wings.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, the rate at which crime is claiming the lives of the people in Nakonde is higher than any disease.

Madam Speaker, Nakonde is one of the borders that contributes massively to this nation in terms of finances. Alas, we do not even have a vehicle for police officers, yet, even today, the people of Nakonde are making K8 million for the Treasury of this nation.

Madam Speaker, one of the measures that the hon. Minister has stated is to increase patrols at the border. As I earlier stated, we do not have any police vehicle. How then are our officers going to be patrolling without a police vehicle?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, before I respond to the actual question that is being posed by my hon. Colleague, I would like to dispel the assertion that the crime rate in Nakonde is increasing. That is not the situation. I can give you the statistics for the benefit of this House and the nation. In 2021, Nakonde recorded ninety-three crime cases and in 2022, we had sixty-one. In 2023 to date, we have just fourteen. This is showing that the crime rate is reducing. Obviously, there are unfortunate incidents like this particular one which was reported recently.

Madam Speaker, as I indicated, we are doing everything possible to ensure that the crime rate is reduced, and it is showing that it is reducing. We are collaborating with other stakeholders in Nakonde District. The business community, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and other security agencies in the district are assisting in the patrol system which we have introduced.

Madam Speaker, I do agree that the Zambia Police Service does not have a vehicle. I have said on the Floor of this House, on several occasions, that the Police Service has no vehicles to provide policing services. That is why this Government decided to buy motor vehicles for 156 constituencies. Unfortunately, there has been a delay pertaining to the purchases. However, I was assured that the vehicles will start rolling in in the next one month. That is an assurance to hon. Colleagues here.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, amongst the three cases the hon. Minister outlined in his statement, a forty-eight-old man was killed. Further, K6,000 and K4 million were stolen and no arrests in all these cases have been made. In his conclusion, the hon. Minister outlined quite a number of measures that the ministry is taking to ensure that crime is curbed in Nakonde. In one of the measures that he outlined, he stated that the police have increased the joint operations.

Madam Speaker, how often does the Provincial Joint Operation Committee (PJOC) meet with counterparts from Tunduma? Or has it just started meeting because of the crimes that are coming up? Is there a routine or schedule on how often they meet to strategize, knowing very well that this Nakonde town sits at the border with Tanzania, and as he said, in the last case, K4 million was stolen? Somebody came from Tunduma to Nakonde and then the theft happened. How often is the collaboration taking place?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would not want to divulge the number of times security wings collaborate because that is a security matter. However, I would like to give more information on the cases that I did allude to. I know it may appear inconsiderate, but because this matter has been raised on the Floor of this House, let me talk about the case of murder.

Madam Speaker, the victim, Collin Siwale, aged forty-eight, was believed to have been leading an unscrupulous life of swindling people in Nakonde. He swindled a family of an unknown amount of money after pretending that he would secure the release of a relative who was detained in police custody for a criminal offence. When the person who was in custody was eventually convicted and given a custodial sentence, his relatives were incensed. It is believed that the relatives called the victim to go and collect the last instalment. Surprisingly, the relatives to the victim denied the police the chance to conduct a post-mortem. Hence the investigation could not proceed further. The cases of instant mob justice are common for suspected criminals in Tanzania and Nakonde.

Madam Speaker, on the case of aggravated robbery, the victim, Alfred Chama, aged thirty-seven, a businessman of Kanyama Compound in Lusaka, met a group of persons at the ‘No Man’s Land’.

The group offered to carry the merchandise that he was carrying and was offering for purchasing. This is a common practice. During the shopping escapade, the group lured him to a secluded place where he was attacked by the same persons who were helping to carry the goods.

Madam Speaker, that is unfortunate situation pertaining to the cases of armed robbery that occurred in Nakonde.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the Government has a responsibility to provide security. I am aware that for this matter to come before this august House, it is not just about the details of the offences that were committed, but obviously the fear in the community. I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security if his ministry is considering transferring one of the vehicles that may be available in a different district basically to go and provide some short-term intervention in as far as mobility for our security officers in Nakonde is concerned considering that providing security is our responsibility.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I take note of the issue that has been raised by my hon. Colleague, but I want to state that unfortunately, there are no vehicles that can be spared by the Zambia Police to be sent to other jurisdictions, currently. There is a serious shortage of transport in the Police Service. It is a desperate situation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I think, my question is similar to the one that was posed by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Madam Speaker, there was some money that was deducted at the source on the belief that it was going towards purchasing police vehicles. To date, we are still waiting.  Apart from that vehicle, does the hon. Minister intend to send another vehicle because Nakonde is a big district with a population of about 400,000, and so, one vehicle cannot be used to patrol such an area. Does the hon. Minister have intentions of sending another vehicle apart from the one whose money was deducted at the source?

Mr Amutike: Buy another one!

Madam Speaker: Now, it will be repetition. The hon. Minister did answer that question that there is a desperate shortage of motor vehicles. So, even if we ask him to answer, I think, the answer will still remain the same. Let us make progress.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to ask the hon. Minister a question, through me. The circulation of the Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK-47) gun that the hon. Minister mentioned in the report, I think, is limited to the military and the like, you can correct me on that one. We have seen that that is the gun that was used in robberies that have happened in Nakonde. Many more reports have gone to –

Mr Mposha interjected.

Mr Fube: Excuse me.

Many more reports have pointed to the use of the AK-47. Is the Government putting measures in place to control the cropping of this gun that is mainly used in crime commission?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want to inform this House that we have, on several occasions, issued press statements and notices that members of the public should surrender any illegal arms that are in their custody. Unfortunately, the response has not been as we had wanted it to be. We are in the process of taking appropriate measures to ensure that illegal arms that are being kept by persons who have no right to own those guns is initiated. I still repeat to the members of the public that I am sure that they are aware of members of the public who are keeping illegal arms in their homes. I would like members of the public to co-operate with the police and report any persons whom they think is holding illegal arms in their communities. That is being done.

I also want to state, Madam Speaker, as you are aware, that we are surrounded by countries that are in a state of war. Some of these arms are emanating from those countries. We are collaborating with other security institutions to ensure that these arms do not find their way into the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister’s said that police vehicles which the Government is procuring would start coming in within thirty days. My question to the hon. Minister is: Would he consider Nakonde and Lundazi, which are border towns, to be among the first ones to receive the vehicles, especially that crime in border areas is rampant?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would not want to make that assurance taking into account that there are other areas which are in more desperate and worse situations than Nakonde.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Lunte.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I take note of the solutions the hon. Minister is bringing, particularly, the solution to procure motor vehicles for all the 156 constituencies using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Hon. Minister, the CDF for the first and second quarter of 2023 has not been funded. Was the ministry given money from the source of CDF or payment will wait until constituencies are funded and then remittances are made to the ministry?

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we are not using the 2023 Constituency Development Funds. The decision to procure motor vehicles using CDF was made last year, 2022, and we are using the funding that was appropriated by this House last year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The next question will be asked by the hon. Member for Chadiza by prior arrangement and in accordance with Standing Order No.51(1).

GIRLS BOARDING SECONDARY SCHOOL IN CHADIZA CONSTITUENCY

304. Mr. J. Daka (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Education:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a girls boarding secondary school in Chadiza Parliamentary Constituency; 
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
3. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe) on behalf of (the Minster of Education) Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker –

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

 Sorry, hon. Minister. Hon. Member for Chilubi, what is your point of order?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, according to Section 16 and Section 18 of the Parliamentary Act, we are supposed to issue truthful statements in the House. When you look at the guidelines that we received as hon. Members of Parliament for the 2023 expenditure, you will see that the money for vehicles for the police is supposed to be deducted from the 2023 budget of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, how is that a point of order?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker –

Madam Speaker: What breach has been committed?

Mr Fube: The hon. Minister has just informed – I wish you can refer to the sections that I have referred to. The hon. Minister has just informed the House that the money for the vehicles we are talking about is away from the 2023 CDF budget and referred to last year. However, the guidelines we received as hon. Members of Parliament are talking about procuring vehicles for the police from the 2023 budget and not 2022 budget, meaning that it is supposed to be effected this year. If you refer to Sections 16 and 18 of the Parliamentary Act, you will find that the hon. Minister will be found wanting over what I am talking about.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, since the hon. Minister is here, and he is the one who brought the information, let him explain what he was saying.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the decision to buy motor vehicles by the Government was made early last year.

Ms Kasune: Correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the process of procuring these motor vehicles commenced last year. If there is any other notification from the Government over these vehicles, I am not aware. I am aware that even last year, there were debates, over the procurement of those motor vehicles, on the Floor of this House by so many hon. Members. So, I do not know how this issue of motor vehicles being procured this year is coming in.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us make progress. The hon. Acting Minister of Education may proceed.   

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to construct a girls boarding secondary school in Chadiza Parliamentary Constituency. Due to the response in part (a), part (b) falls off.

Madam, there are no immediate plans because the Government is currently constructing Chanida and Kalemba Day secondary schools in the same Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam Speaker, in addition, the Government is constructing a weekly boarding facility at Kalemba Day Secondary School which is at 45 per cent complete. Further, the Government is focused on the agenda to complete the infrastructure already earmarked and those under construction, including stalled projects, countrywide before considering new projects.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the response he has given to the people of Chadiza. However, the numbers of adolescent pregnancies in my constituency are quite alarming. Imagine, at the end of the last quarter of 2022, we had 421 girls falling pregnant.

Madam Speaker, as though that was not enough, at the beginning of this quarter, we have almost 500 girls who have fallen pregnant in my constituency. Now, it is quite worrisome for the people of Chadiza to be told that the Government has no intention of constructing a girls boarding school in my constituency.

Madam Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to give the Government’s position on how it intends to keep the girl child in school, void of this facility which the people of Chadiza are asking for.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I want to correct the hon. Member that the Government is not saying that it has no intentions to construct a girls’ boarding school. It is just that there are no immediate plans because as explained, we are still carrying out other activities, such as the construction of schools in the constituency.

Madam Speaker, as to how we can help mitigate or stop the pregnancies that are occurring, it starts with parenting and goes on and on. Even us, as leaders need to sensitise the children. Furthermore, there is a need to speak strongly to the men who are abusing these young girls because even if they are in boarding school, they are still exposed and can still fall pregnant. So, I think that these two issues are not related. It is a matter of how that society is dealing with issues or why these issues are happening. It is important, maybe, to investigate. However, when the Government says it has no immediate plans, it does not mean that it has no intentions at all. In future, that may happen.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I want to first of all sympathise with my hon. Colleague from Chadiza Constituency as I raise a follow-up question to the Acting hon. Minister of Education.

Madam Speaker, the question deals with the issue of boarding facilities. I am sure he appreciates the importance of a boarding facility in a rural constituency. The hon. Minister has reported to this august House that the Government has no immediate plans to construct a girls’ boarding school. What assurance can he give regarding when those plans will be considered?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I have said the Government has no immediate plans. The reason is that there are other schools being constructed within the same constituency. As such, the hon. Member knows that the Government must distribute resources equitably. So, if other constructions are taking place, it means that there are other needy areas where the Government is carrying out other construction works, but we sympathise with the issues that are happening in our hon. Colleague’s constituency. The Government, at an appropriate time, will look into the issue of a boarding facility in Chadiza.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. Daka: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses. There is a very strong correlation between adolescent pregnancies in rural constituencies and the provision of boarding facilities.

Madam Speaker, the rural constituency that I come from has got only one boarding school in the whole district. That translates into saying that girls need to walk long distances to access this facility. You know long distances discourage our girls from completing or getting the much-pronounced free education that was introduced by the New Dawn Government.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chadiza are asking for this kind of a facility because of the circumstances in which we are. Are there any short-term interventions that the Government can put in place, maybe, by way of upgrading one of the secondary schools that he mentioned or any other interventions that the Government may be considering in helping the people of Chadiza.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much and I thank the hon. Member because that is a very important observation. In addition, the Government previously worked with the Parent Teacher Association (PTA) to complete the construction of weekly boarding facilities at Katantha and Naviruli secondary schools in the same area. I am sure the hon. Member is aware of that. I think that it is a path and trajectory that the Government would consider. We sympathise with the fact that the distances are long and as our children are walking to day schools, they are getting exposed to unscrupulous men who may be abusing them and telling them fake stories.  So, we really sympathise with that situation. It is a matter that the Government would serious look into, especially with the remedy that was employed in the past.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. The hon. Member for Lukashya will be the last to ask a question.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, of the new schools that are being constructed in the district, how many have boarding facilities? If some have, would the Government prefer to increase the proportion of girls in these boarding facilities as compared to the boys?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I am not privy to the construction details yet but construction is ongoing. We will be glad to give more information even outside parliament time.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, we can move to the next question.

CONSTRUCTION OF THE LUWINGU/LUPOSOSHI/SAMFYA ROAD

301. Mr Chibombwe (Bahati) (on behalf of Mr Emmanuel Musonda (Lupososhi)) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

1. when the construction of the Luwingu/Lupososhi/Samfya Road will resume;
2. what the cost of the project is;
3. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is; and
4. what the distance of the road to be constructed is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the construction of the Luwingu/Lupososhi/Samfya Road will resume when funds are secured and a new contractor procured.

Madam, the total contract sum for the two lots for the upgrading to bituminous standard of the Luwingu/Lupososhi/Samfya Road was K754, 233,897.93.

The timeframe for the completion of the project was thirty months from the date of commencement.

Madam Speaker, the total length of the project road was 191km broken down as follows:

1. 113km from Samfya to Kasaba via Lubwe (Lot 1) and;
2.  78km from Kasaba to Luwingu via Chungu (Lot 2).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response.

Madam Speaker, the road in question is very important for our small-scale farmers and our traders in both Luapula Province and the Northern Province. There is a stretch of this road in Bahati Constituency, in Katangashi Ward. Then there is a part in Samfya. It goes through Lubwe, Chifunabuli, Lupososhi and Luwingu. The contractor who was there previously did some works. I think there was graveling that was done to a certain extent. So, my question is; For now, is the Government considering continuing with gravelling the road up to Luwingu or do we have to wait until funds are available?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bahati for the follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, let me just give additional information. The project is currently in the process of termination due to continued fiscal constraints faced by the Government and the need to attain debt sustainability.  For ease of implementation, the project road has been split into two lots, as I have mentioned.

Madam, the Road Development Agency (RDA) contracted B5BK Limited to undertake the upgrading of 113km of the Samfya to Kasaba via Lubwe Road in Luapula Province, that is under Lot 1 at a sum of K439,062,226.85 and works commenced on 1^st June, 2014. However, due to fiscal challenges, in June 2020, the project was re-scoped from upgrading to bituminous standard to gravel standard and the contract sum revised to K371,650,970.45, including Value Added Tax (VAT).

Madam Speaker, as of now, the overall physical progress currently stands at 64.1 per cent against the planned 98 per cent. The contractor had fully mobilised and completed 72.7km of clearing and grubbing 72.7km of roadbed preparation, 59.3km of sub-base, 11.20km of cement stabilisation, surfaced 11.10km of double surface dressing from Musaila towards Lubwe.

Madam Speaker, a sum of K7,500,000.00 was paid to the contractor towards the advance on 4^th August, 2017 out of the total certified amount of K17,920,477.64. Due to persistent fiscal challenges and failure to attain financial closure, the project could not take off and is earmarked for termination.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for yet another opportunity to ask a follow-up question to the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that the Northern Circuit has great potential for tourism. Obviously, any road going to Samfya is a very important road that can unlock the huge tourism potential that Samfya has. From that perspective of unlocking the huge economic potential of Samfya and avoiding going to Mansa for one to go to the said area, is the Government prioritising this road?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kang’ombe, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa for his question. From the way his question is structured, I am not sure he understands the geography of that area, but I will explain. This road is from Musaila, which is about 15km from Samfya and goes into Chifunabuli, through the following three chiefdoms:

Hon. Member interjected.

Eng. Milupi: Chifunabuli is not Samfya. It is a different district.

Madam, the road goes through Chief Chitembo, Senior Chief Mwewa and Chief Mwansakombe, all the way to Kasaba. It is from Kasaba where there is a wetland area where there was an attempt to put up a bridge that would lead into Lupososhi Constituency and onward to Luwingu.

Madam Speaker, I say this because I have been there so I know the geography fairly well. To answer the hon. Member’s question, we have committed ourselves, as the Government. In fact, our colleagues in the previous Government had rescoped this particular road to gravel, especially Lot 1 which is from Musaila to Kasaba.  On my visit there, I had stated and promised the people of those areas that we were, again, going to rescope it to bituminous standards that is from where the tarred road finishes, which is 11.1km from Musaila. This will be done, all we are waiting for is to ensure that we put in place the necessary financing so that at least, the section from Musaila all the way to Kasaba can be tarred. I have been on that road, and it is in a terrible state. It is the intention of the Government that it be tarred.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did well to mention the chiefdoms where this road passes. However, I will mention the constituencies where the road passes so that the hon. Minister may appreciate the challenge. It is good that Hon. Kapala is in the House, at the moment, he is from Chifunabuli. This road passes through Bahati, and what is tarred in Bahati is not 15km, I think it is just a stretch of less than 5km. It is not 11km. I was there just a few weeks ago. Then it also passes through Bangweulu, Chifunabuli, as I mentioned where Hon. Kapala comes from, and Lupososhi.

The hon. Minister mentioned that the Government wants to rescope this road and that it is in two lots. Could he clarify if it is just the stretch under Lot 1 that is going to be tarred or the entire 199km.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the 11.1km I talked about is from Musaila on the Mansa/Samfya Road. As you go towards Chifunabuli, 11.1km is the site for the first bridge called Ndoba, which is still under construction. That distance is 11.1km. In Lot 1, that is where the commitment by this Government to rescope it to bituminous standards has been made so that we have a tarred road from Musaila all the way to Kasaba. For those who know the geography of the area, from Kasaba, there is about 5km of a wetland that requires a causeway to cross that wetland into Lupososhi Constituency.

Madam Speaker, therefore, this project is still a gravel road that was rescoped by the previous administration. However, even that still requires some funds. We understand that not only will it make it easier for the people of Chifunabuli to move, including those going to Lubwe Catholic Mission, it also links the Northern Province and Luapula Province. It has been explained to me that it can actually be a shortcut for people coming from Mansa going all the way to the Northern Province.  So, we do have plans, but at the moment, the rescoping to bituminous standards is for Lot 1, and Lot 2 will continue as gravel, but even that is awaiting sourcing of funds.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga: Thank you very much once more, Madam Speaker. Considering that most of the roads that have been abandoned are experiencing dilapidation, what is the current state of maintenance of this road before the Government identifies a new contractor?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I think we are beginning to agree that the state of our roads is not very good, and that is why we are putting all our efforts to ensure that we have resources. When we get these resources, we will begin the process of rehabilitating roads, or indeed, just repairing them so that people are able to motor from one point to another. I can catalogue a number of roads throughout the country that are in a terrible state. If you talk about Luapula, since this section of the road is in that province, again, there are a number of roads that require urgent repairs. The constraining factor is the resources, and that is why people like me, and I hope the whole House, wishes this Government all the best in the current attempt to resolve the debt situation. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the President, at the moment, are in France to see if they can push that process to a conclusion so that we begin to address issues that require resources.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, my question is a rider to the one posed by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa who spoke about the tourism potential that lies in that corridor, and the hon. Minister really explained the routing very well. When he was settling in at his ministry, he came to this august House on several occasions to inform hon. Members that he was going to prioritise the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) model in dealing with some of these roads. Of late, we do not hear so much of that model. Has the Government shifted policy? What is its position, currently? Is the Government still enthusiastic about trying to resolve some of these infrastructure challenges, especially the roads using the PPP model that it was so committed to?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, we have mentioned on the Floor of this House that the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) model of financing for road construction is a flagship policy for the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. Our desire is that on a yearly basis, we should have up to twenty roads that are concessioned out on a PPP arrangement. We have concessioned the ones that we have such as the Chingola/Kasumbalesa Road, Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway, and so on. Through this process, we have identified constraining factors that make movement slow in completing some of these concessions. Part of that is the Public Private Partnership Act, which we are going to bring to this House to amend so that we take out some factors that slow down the progress.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the number of roads in the pipeline, there are quite a number. For example, the Mwenda/Kasomeno Road in Luapula, Sakanya/Ndola/Mufulira Road, Mufulira/Bokambo Road, Solwezi/Kipushi Road, Kambimba Road from Lumwana West, Mutanda all the way to Jimbe, Kasempa, Kaoma, Lwampa, Simungoma, Sesheke, Livingstone, and even the hon. Member’s road from Serenje all the way to Chinsali. We are in discussions to have these roads worked on under the PPP model.

Madam Speaker, the road that we are talking about, which is under Lot 1, is the Musaila/ Kasaba Road. The country must accept that there are some roads which will not attract the PPP model of financing. Therefore, they are prioritised using our own Government funds because the concessionaire will not be able to recover the money because of the volumes of traffic that traverse those particular roads. This is just a fact and the Government is aware of this. Where we think the volumes are high and we have had unsolicited bids, we shall progress those. However, where we know that we will not get bids, we will direct our own Treasury funds, when it is available, to have those roads rehabilitated.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mabonga (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, the people of Luwingu would like to know the timeframe that the Government is attaching to when the funds will be made available for this particular project.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the House should, please understand this. If you look at this year’s Budget, you will see that the amount of resources locally generated in that Budget is barely about US$6 billion in total. This amount of money is not sufficient for us to undertake these works using our own resources and because we are over-borrowed, at the moment, we cannot borrow. That is why the previous Government in November 2020, defaulted on the Euro Bond.

Madam Speaker, the key is unlocking this debt situation. That is why I am saying that the President has spent sleepless nights thinking, dealing and making calls to have this issue of debt resolved. Those who talk to him will tell you that. Thankfully, we think we are almost there.

Madam Speaker, when this is done, to release some resources, the first place that will be visited will be this House with a Supplementary Budget. It is the hon. Members who will debate the Supplementary Budget and when that is concluded and enacted, that is when we shall know when resources will be made available to undertake some of this work.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I think we have exhausted this question. The last question is from the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi and then we move to the next question.

Mr. Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I am surprised, the predecessor for the hon. Member who has brought this question, said on the Floor of this House, that there was massive development in Luwingu. However, the hon. Member for Lukashya has confirmed that the roads were abandoned. What hope is the hon. Minister giving to the people of Luwingu who were abandoned by the previous regime?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on this very serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65(1)(a).

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi is one of the senior-most hon. Members of this august House and he is supposed to be well vest with the Standing Orders of this House.

Madam Speaker, is he in order to deliberately mislead this august House and the hon. Minister who is responding to questions regarding one road in Luwingu, and accuse his former hon. Colleague without evidence which he can lay on the Table, as having spoken in this House about this road having been done? Further, is he in order to say this road has been abandoned when the hon. Minister has been very elaborate in his responses that when the resources were not available, the re-scoping was done all in an effort to try and give the people of this area a road?

Madam Speaker, is he in order to opt to politick? He is my very good colleague. Is he in order to breach the Standing Orders by dragging his former hon. Colleague who is no longer here to defend himself regarding the allegation he is making?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam.

Madam Speaker: I was following the questions and answers. I believe the hon. Member for Dundumwezi was quoting the hon. Member for Lukashya who said that the road was abandoned. So, I do not know if the hon. Member for Lukashya did say that the road was abandoned. However, the hon. Minister is here. Let the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development answer the question.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, you see, the things we say in this House matter. I think the genesis of the hon. Member’s question arises from some of the things that were said on the Floor of this House. Statements like unprecedented infrastructure development came from this House. As Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, I have traversed the length and breadth of this country, and I have come back to this House and said that by and large, I have not seen this unprecedented infrastructure development.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, that is why from those who were making maiden speeches when this Parliament opened in 2021, we heard statement like ‘we have done so many things in this constituency and so on and so forth.’ I can go province by province. In fact, some of the most virulent questions concerning the lack of infrastructure are in areas which were designated as strongholds for a certain party. In the Eastern Province, there are many roads that require to be done. In Muchinga Province, where the hon. Member comes from, there are many that require to be done. Two weeks ago, I was in the Northern Province and Luapula Province, and there, the roads are in a terrible state. If I mention the others, it is even worse.

Madam Speaker, our role is to correct that which was left undone and we shall do that as a Government.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chibombwe: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 is so clear. The hon. Minister is supposed to respond to the questions from the people of Samfya, Bahati and Luwingu. However, he is just busy politicking. We do not want to hear–

Interruptions

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, may I be protected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Bahati, you may resume your seat. When a question is asked and it is on the Order Paper, of course, by practice, we give an opportunity to the people coming from that particular constituency. However, on several occasions, we have allowed other hon. Members from other constituencies to also ask questions. Just like this afternoon, we allowed the hon. Member for Kamfinsa to ask questions about a constituency where he does not come from. So, that is normal practice, hon. Member for Bahati. Sometimes, the hon. Members of Parliament who do not come from that particular constituency can also help unravel the issues in a particular constituency. So, let us work together in harmony.

Can we make progress.

Mr Sampa indicated to ask a question.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mandevu, I had closed the list. You indicated a bit late. Next time, make sure that you indicate early so that it does not appear like I am excluding my son from asking questions.

TERMINAL BENEFITS FOR ZAMPOST RETIREES

302. Mr. Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

(a)     when former ZamPost employees who retired between 2014 and 2021 will be paid their terminal benefits; and

(b)     what the cause of the delay in paying the retirees is.

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Mr Muchima) (on behalf of the Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati)): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that for the period 2014 and 2021, a total of 206 retirees are owed K57,985,912 in retirement benefits.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government, through the Ministry of Technology and Science, working together with ZamPost Management concluded an auditing and verification exercise to consolidate the position of the total debt owed to separated staff. The ministry, working with both ZamPost Management and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is working to liquidate the outstanding amounts.

Madam Speaker, the corporation has in the last three years expensed over K31 million on ex-staff through internally generated resources. However, due to the legal requirement to get separating employees on the payroll until they are paid off, the outstanding arrears have continued to increase as opposed to decreasing.

Madam Speaker, the delay to pay off the retirees has been due to the inability of ZamPost management to pay off pensioners from the time it was separated from the Post and Telecommunication Corporation. The company has carried this debt burden over the years, which has contributed to the weakening revenue position. This has further been aggravated by the non-existence of a pension scheme.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to further note that the Ministry of Technology and Science is currently working with the Management of ZamPost to implement a turnaround strategy to facilitate a transformation of the institution. This strategy will see the company broaden its revenue collection base through the introduction of digital platforms and new services. To minimise the impact of such separations of the company, ZamPost is also in the process of identifying a pension scheme for employees to ensure that similar situations do not occur in the future.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for the answers he has given. Since there is this turnaround strategy that is going to, maybe, improve the finances for ZamPost, when will this be done so that the people are paid as soon as possible?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, ZamPost Management, through its strategic plan, has gone into some arrangements and has signed some agreements to rent some of its buildings and also to go into some other businesses that will enhance the financial positions of the company.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, former ZamPost employees are Zambians who rendered their service to this nation and they deserve to be paid their monies. Many of them have actually passed on, and this money will now be taken by people who are not supposed to get it. The New Dawn Government under the leadership of His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema promised to liquidate some of this debt towards the companies that were liquidated or went under, and we have seen this happening. What is wrong with the Government also finding money to pay off these former ZamPost workers so that they can enjoy their money. After all, the President has actually come up with 20 per cent partial withdraw from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) in order for the person who worked for this money to enjoy. Could the Government find means and ways of paying these former ZamPost employees.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan. I said that the Government has just concluded an auditing and verification exercise to consolidate the position of the total debt owed to separated staff. This debt is historical, it has been there for some time. The Government did not just dream it. As we have seen, this Government has a strategy in place, and it will not leave anybody languishing. It has taken steps to liquidate all the outstanding debt, and it is the same for ZamPost. It is also trying to balance the equation. ZamPost is owed K24 million by the Government in postal services. All that will be taken into consideration. I am sure I talked about the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and ZamPost Management being in discussions together with the Ministry of Technology and Science. This will be addressed.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Sabao (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for the good statement. Could the hon. Minister confirm the assertion that this Government has neglected the Zampost retirees and other Government institutions.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, those assertions should be condemned with the contempt they deserve. Ever since this Government took over office or the governance of this country, it has inherited serious liabilities, which it has not run away from, but has been dismantling them seriously. As you can see, most of the retirees have been paid off. This Government is seriously looking into the plight of the people, including the Zampost retirees. When you look at what the Government has paid out, you will see that it has actually paid off huge sums of money. People are no longer sleeping in the streets like they used to at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and elsewhere. This Government is very responsible. It will deal with this issue amicably.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I stand proudly here because we are the pioneers of ensuring that when workers retire, they remain on the payroll until they are paid their terminal benefits to avoid destitution. The hon. Minister has stated that the Ministry of Technology and Science ZamPost management are currently discussing the way forward. I would like to find out whether the trade union at ZamPost, the National Union for Communication Workers Union (NUCW) is fully involved in these discussions.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, when I say ZamPost management, it means that the union is part and parcel of the discussion for them to have arrived at this figure which the Government is dealing with. It is not just an issue between the union and ZamPost, but it is an issue of dismantling the arrears. This is the total figure which has come to the Government. It is not dealing with the union. Even if the union came in, the question would still be how we pay the amount we are talking about and the people are still on the payroll.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Madam Speaker, in the current state of ZamPost, I would like to find out whether the company is making profit or not for it to continue putting pressure on the Treasury to pay retirees.

 Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I said that there are strategies that are being put in place to revive the sinking ZamPost. At first it was ZamPost, together with telecommunications, but it is now separate and as such, there are measures that have gone into consideration like the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with other institutions to revive it. They are also going into e-commerce. So, all these are strategies to see how it can revive the operations for it to be profitable.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I would like to seek clarification on whether or not all the retirees or any of them are still on the payroll as they wait to be given their terminal benefits.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we should be paying attention when the hon. Minister is answering to avoid being repetitious.

 Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I said yes, they are still on the payroll.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, the employees at ZamPost have suffered for an unconstitutional period of time and we sympathise with them. As the Government keeps on looking for money to pay them, is the considering appealing to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to provide it with part of the money being recovered from proceeds of crime such as the K65 million, the amnesty extended to people and those who are paying back to the Government, so that part of this money can be committed to pay our suffering people at ZamPost.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chifubu for the follow-up question.

Madam, any money that goes to Control 99, either recovered from money suspected to be proceeds of crime or any other will be utilised for such purposes such as paying the former ZamPost employees. This is why they did the verification exercise which has since been completed. So, when the money is found, they will be paid.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, may I know whether there is an intention to create a special committee to superintend over those strategies that the Government has come up with to ensure that what is intended is achieved within the reasonable space.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I already hinted that there are strategies in place. The ministry is working together with ZamPost management and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to ensure that the debt be dismantled. I mentioned this earlier on.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I do appreciate the responses coming from the hon. Minister. Undoubtedly, he is one of the most experienced public servants. Indeed, the challenges at ZamPost, which is a parastatal, are historical and he has alluded to some of the reasons.

Madam Speaker, keeping people on the payroll is such a huge cost, and if it is not dealt with now, it will certainly hamper the turnaround strategy that ZamPost is trying to put in place in order to get the parastatal on track. On one hand, the Government has worked out the figures that it owes this parastatal. Why can we not take advantage of the huge debt that the Government owes ZamPost and use it to clear the former employees’ terminal benefits so that the turnaround strategy which ZamPost is trying is implement can then be effective?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question coming from the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu. Indeed, that cost is a burden on the Government coffers. However, the Government cannot not just go and pay without verification. This is why the auditing. It was also to establish whether the K24 million was genuinely earned. So, when they bring the figures together, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will respond to it immediately so that this debt is dealt with.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I meant to withdraw because my question was on Zamtel. I thought it was Zamtel. I am sorry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the chance, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, to ask a follow-up question to the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, there is this issue of making a 20 per cent partial withdraw from the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) savings, which is very good. Asking on behalf of ZamPost employees, just in case they saved with the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF), is the Government planning an immediate programme where those with the PSPF can be able to access part of their funds?

Madam Speaker: Order!

I think this is a new question, altogether. Hon. Acting Minister, is that within the substantive question?

Mr Muchima: Not at all, Madam Speaker. I had read to the House that these former employees did not belong to any pension house. They were some difficulties where they belonged before, that was the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC). Had they belonged to NAPSA, it would have been extended to them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.            

Madam Speaker: I am sure it is clear hon. Member for Lundazi.

Ms Nyirenda indicated assent.

Mr Mtayachalo rose.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chama North, we only give one opportunity to ask a question.

Mr Mtayachalo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order on who, and what is the breach?

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, when I posed a question to the Acting hon. Minister of Technology and Science on whether NUCW was involved in those discussions, the hon. Minister told this House that management and the union are the same. The fact of the matter is that the ZamPost is registered under the Companies Act, while a trade union is registered under the Industrial and Labour Relations Act. The two are totally different. So, is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House and the nation?

Madam Speaker: First of all, hon. Member for Chama North, Standing Order No. 65 has Sections (1) (a) and (b), (2) (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) and (f) and (3). You did not specify which particular section of this Standing Order has been breached.

Mr Mtayachalo: It is Standing Order 65 (1) (a).

Madam Speaker: No, that is an afterthought, sorry.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Further, if I correctly recall what the hon. Minister said, he said the union was also involved. So, I do not know whether you want the hon. Minister to specifically say that the union and management are all involved. However, he said management here includes the union. So, it is alright. He is not a lawyer. You can forgive him. He is not a lawyer to say that management does not include the union. However, what is important is that the union is also involved in the discussions.

Mr Kafwaya: He is a lawyer.

Madam Speaker: The doctor is a lawyer? Sorry, I did not know that.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, sorry. Alright, he is a lawyer, but anyway, it does not matter. The most important thing, hon. Member for Chama North, is that you wanted to know whether the union was also involved. The Acting hon. Minister did indicate that the union was, indeed, involved. Those other issues of legalities and so on and so forth, I think let us leave them out and make some progress.

The next question was supposed to be asked by the hon. Member for Chinsali. I have received a note that there was a prior arrangement, but I have been informed by the Government Chief Whip that the hon. Member for Chinsali is on leave without his authority. Therefore, that prior arrangement to ask the question on his behalf cannot stand. Under the circumstance, Question No. 303 lapses.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: The problem is that once the chair has ruled, you cannot challenge the decision. Let us just make progress.

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, I have already made a ruling. If you are not satisfied, you can challenge my ruling –

Mr Kampyongo: I am not challenging your ruling, Madam Speaker. You are giving authority to the Executive over your hon. Members.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, if you recall, we had a discussion this morning over these issues. So, you should have liaised with the hon. Government Chief Whip, instead of us coming to discuss those issues here in the House. So, just liaise with each other and give me correct information, which I can be able to act upon. I do not want to be misled.

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kalulushi, please, restrain yourself by not debating while seated.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, HUMAN RIGHTS AND GOVERNANCE ON THE REVIEW OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATIONS OF THE JUDICIARY IN THE DELIVERY OF JUSTICE IN ZAMBIA

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 20^th June, 2023.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I believe the hon. Members of this august House have had occasion to peruse the report, and so, I will proceed to highlight a few of your Committee’s observations and recommendations contained in the report.

Madam Speaker, during this session, your Committee considered the topic entitled “A Review of the Administration and Operations of the Judiciary in the Justice Delivery System in Zambia”. In this regard, your Committee sought to investigate what impediments, if any, exist and threaten the access to justice and its speedy delivery in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, access to justice is the bedrock of any successful governance system. All players in the chain of justice must, therefore, be fully armed with capacity, so as to enable them dispense justice without delay. It can, however, never be overemphasised, that the existence of some bottlenecks is an encumbrance to achieving this end.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the foremost challenge that besets the Judiciary is limited court infrastructure. Some of the court buildings were constructed prior to independence and have remained the same despite the rapid increase in population, as well as in the number of judges and magistrates. This has put the Judiciary in a very precarious situation in that judicial officers take turns to hear cases due to limited courtrooms.

Mr Kafwaya left his seat to greet other hon. Members. 

Madam Speaker, when the Committee undertook on-site visits to selected court infrastructure, it was found that the Supreme Court and Constitutional Court judges share the only two courtrooms in the Supreme Court, while some of the judges are housed in offices, which were meant for support staff and are now used as judges’ chambers. These make-shift chambers are small, poorly ventilated and not self-contained. 

Madam Speaker, this situation of infrastructure shortfalls does not just affect the superior courts, but the entire judicial hierarchy. The situation is made worse –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, please can you comply with the Standing Orders. If you want to go and chat, please step outside and chat. However, you have been giving your back to the presiding officer. I have been observing you. You were chatting there and greeting everyone. You can step outside, have a chat and come back. In the meantime, we want to listen to the chair of the Committee as he presents his report. Please let us observe the rules.

Mr Kafwaya bowed and left the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Katombola proceed.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I was saying that the situation is made worse this for female judicial officers who do not have self-contained chambers as they have to grapple with poor sanitation, which bedevils menstrual hygiene.

Madam Speaker, these unfortunate conditions have a direct impact on the turnaround time in which judgements are delivered. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to enhance the infrastructural development plans already in place by providing adequate resources for expansion of existing infrastructure and construction of new infrastructure for the Judiciary.

Madam speaker, your Committee also learnt that the Judiciary had a limited fleet of operational motor vehicles with the most critically affected being the High Court and subordinate courts. This challenge exposed the court’s to failure at times to visit scenes of crime or serve court documents. Your Committee notes that these and many more challenges highlighted in the report speak to the fact that the Judiciary is not adequately funded.

Madam Speaker, while your Committee appreciates the increased budgetary allocations to the Judiciary in recent years, it is alive to the fact that the Constitution of Zambia not only gives functional autonomy to the Judiciary, but also financial autonomy.  In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that Articles 122 and 123 that guarantee financial independence of the Judiciary are actualised by fully and adequately funding the budgetary needs of the judiciary.

Madam Speaker, in order to learn best practices from other jurisdictions, your Committee went to the Republic of Uganda for a benchmarking tour. Your Committee learnt inter-alia, that the Uganda Human Rights Commission plays an important role in the justice delivery system. The commission sits as a tribunal to hear and determine cases of human rights violations and has the power to issue binding compensatory awards. This has greatly helped to decongest the courts of law that would ordinarily have conduct of all human rights cases.

In this regard, your Committee urges the Executive that when the opportunity for constitutional reforms in Zambia presents itself, the mandate of the Human Rights Commission should be expanded to include quasi-judicial powers to determine cases of human rights violations. This would go a long way in reducing the case load of the High Court, which has original jurisdiction to hear human rights cases.

As I end, Madam Speaker, I would be failing in my duty if I did not pay tribute to the stakeholders who tendered valuable information to your Committee during its meetings. I also wish to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support services rendered to your Committee throughout this session. Finally, I would like to thank the hon. Members of your Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance for their dedication to the work of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Lungu (Chawama): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I rise to second the Motion that has been ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee on Human Rights and Governance.

Madam Speaker, as I second this Motion, I want to echo the mover’s sentiments to say that the lack of infrastructure in the Judiciary has been a big impact in that it has greatly contributed to the delayed justice.

Madam Speaker, when we look back to the times of independence, we see that most of the infrastructure that we have was constructed then. However, throughout the years, the population has grown, but we have not really increased the infrastructure and this has led to a problem. Recently, we enacted the Child Code Act and I want to focus my debate on that because it is a very progressive law. However, the enactment of that law has now unveiled a lot of issues. One of the issues is that the number of cases for the Judiciary has now increased, yet it already had a backlog. So, now that we have added these cases, nothing is really happening.

Madam Speaker, before that piece of legislation was enacted, the Children’s Court, which is also a division of the High Court, called the Family and Children’s Division, was only in Lusaka. So, now, with an enactment of the new law, we have to expand on the jurisdictions. However, as we heard, some jurisdictions have no infrastructure. This means that all the cases of children that have to be tried have to wait until they share the High Court rooms with the other cases.

Madam Speaker, this is one issue I have flagged as a priority because I am looking at cases in Kanyama and in Chawama. With all these juvenile delinquents that are coming up in the name of junkies, I would say that the whole of Lusaka is in trouble because most of the constituencies have many juvenile delinquents. If you look at Mandevu, you will see that it has many juvenile delinquents. If we also look at Munali, we see that it also has many juvenile delinquents. If left unchecked, this situation will quickly be out of control in that we will not have the human capital to enable this country to progress.

Madam Speaker, the distances are also an issue. Like I mentioned, we went to the Southern Province for our tour, and during that tour, we found that the High Court is in Livingstone. Although Choma is now the provincial capital, there is no presence of a High Court there. The poor families have to travel great distances from throughout the Southern Province to attend the court sessions for their cases in Choma. There is no indication that the infrastructure will be built anytime soon. Any infrastructure that has to be built, that request will be coming to this House to speak to the hon. Minister of Justice and we will be referred back to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). So, for any criminal justice system to be effective, it cannot neglect to look at social justice. If we have places like Kanyama and Chawama and these places are left unattended, it means that we are not making progress. Most of these children are vulnerable. Already, they do not have a lot of opportunities because unemployment levels in this country are high.

Madam Speaker, we are looking at the number of youths in this country, those who are below the age of thirty. They make up 70 per cent of the country’s population. So, if we neglect this population and we do not look at it to try and come up with preventative measures, we will not be making any progress.

Madam Speaker, the other important issue to note is that the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Education will have to work together. That is to say the number of schools such as Katombora Reformatory have to be increased. If we can have at least one school in each province that executes the same type of discipline as that at Katombora Reformatory, we will be making progress. This school was built immediately after independence in the 1960s and it is the only school where we send young men and women who have gotten in trouble with the law. Outside of that, we used to hold these young women and men in the same prisons where we used to hold adults. I would not recommend building any more infrastructure to hold juvenile delinquents. Going forward, if we do not take a preventive approach to try and rehabilitate their behaviour, then we, ourselves will be taking a few steps backwards. Human capital will be the most important looking at the population of 70 per cent of children that are below the age of thirty.

Madam Speaker, we need schools as it is. With the reforms in the country’s education system and the free education on board, and seeing that already, we do not have enough classrooms and schools, the next best thing would be to build more schools that are going to model the reformatory in Katombora. I know that it is not legal to take some young men and women who are not delinquents to these schools that will look exactly like the one in Katombora, but what we can do is model the same type of disciplinary action in schools. Perhaps, we can build boarding schools in rural areas and in these boarding schools, we could focus on teaching the children in such a way that they do not fall delinquents to drugs and other pressures that society has to offer.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I just want to thank my brother, Hon. Andeleki, the mover of the Motion as well as the seconder, Hon. Lungu.

Madam Speaker, I just want to indicate from the beginning that I do support the report. In supporting the report, I just want to add a few issues to the debate. The report looks at the entire justice system from the Supreme Court up to the local courts. The Supreme Court as it stands pari passu with the Constitutional Court, they are at par, and the Court of Appeal, the High Court, subordinate court as well as local courts.

Madam Speaker, because in the justice system, there are criminal matters as well as civil matters. I want to start by addressing myself to criminal matters.

Madam Speaker, the report also looks at the police and how they operate and that the justice system under criminal matters starts with the police, when there is a complaint. Every week, as it has been pointed out, there is a lot of overload on our courts. That being the case, I have observed that there are many cases which are cause listed and should not have been gracing the court record. There are many people who are arrested, but should not be arrested taken to court. So, other than the lack of infrastructure, these are also some of the issues that the report needed to look at. There are cases that are not supposed to be in court, but they find themselves in court.

Madam Speaker, we must be open to ourselves. There are a lot of political cases, cases that are earmarked to go to court whose source is purely political. You know, as a country, we need to move away and leave the courts to operate independently. Yes, I agree, there is a lack of space and we are seeing one judge of the High Court, perhaps, handling 250 cases. That is too much for one judge to write rulings and judgements. That situation has really undermined the operations of the courts.

Madam Speaker, I want to also look at the situation at the subordinate courts whereby, there is no order in the way the cases are cause listed. All the cases are cause listed at 0900 hours before one magistrate instead of putting them accordingly and allocating them time. So, you find a situation where lawyers have gathered and the litigants have also come at one point waiting to be heard. You will be waiting whilst another case is being heard. The proper procedure should be to allocate an hour for this one, like at 0900 hours, 1000 hours another one and 1100 hours and so on and so forth so that we do not have unnecessary waiting and clogging of the court in terms of traffic.

Madam Speaker, I take cognisance of the fact that the Judiciary is administered by the Chief Justice. I want to emphasise that it is important for management of the Judiciary to visit these court rooms from the Supreme Court down to the magistrates’ court and, indeed, to the lowest court.

Madam Speaker, I just want to also address myself to the National Prosecutions Authority (NPA). It is important that the NPA quickly gets devolved to provincial level as well as at district level. That being the case, we will see some of the efficient and quick resolution of these criminal matters. Further, just as a way of adding my voice, it is important also that the NPA or the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPPs’) Office is depoliticised. We need to ensure that the independence that is provided for in the Constitution is maintained.

Madam Speaker, I was taken aback when I saw that, a nolle prosequi was entered on judgment day. When the court starts, there is, obviously, taking of plea and then trial. After trial, submissions are made and the court awaits judgement. Obviously, although not pointed at in law, but it is too late, on the day of judgement, to enter a nolle prosequi.

Madam Speaker, let me also address myself to the issue of trying to decongest the courts. The small claims court comes in handy as an intervention to also decongest some of the courts. My proposal would be that we increase the jurisdiction of that court from K20,000 to K50,000.

Madam Speaker, I said that we need to devolve some of the courts, even the High Court, we need to ensure that even as we talk about decentralisation as a country in general, we also look at how that can be done at the High court. I know that obviously, it exists at provincial level,   there is a need to have it at district level also. That direction will help us deal with some of the issues at a lowest level.

Madam Speaker, I want to suggest and emphasise –

Mr Haimbe, SC.: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, there is a point of order raised.

Hon. Minister, I do not know if it is a point that can be responded to as you respond to the debate on the report?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: No, Madam Speaker, it cannot be responded to because it is a matter of whether or not the hon. Member is in compliance with Standing Order No.65 (1) (b), factual requirement of the content of his debate.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member did make a startling submission in his debate to the effect that the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) Chambers are politicised and went on to suggest that in a matter in which –

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: I am addressing the Speaker. In a matter in which the DPP entered a nolle prosequi, there was political influence at play.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, that is purely speculative. It is not factual, and to make it worse, no evidence has been laid on the Table of the House.

Amb. Kalimi interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Malole, I can hear you from here. Please, do not debate while seated.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, no evidence, whatsoever, can possibly be put on the Table and none has been put on the Table to suggest that what the hon. Member is saying is factual. Of course, this is not a matter that can be responded to in the ordinary course of our debate because it is basically based on pure speculation.

The point of order, Madam Speaker, is: Is the hon. Member in order not to comply with Standing Order No.65 (1) (b) which requires debates on the Floor of this House to be factual?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we debate, let us ensure that we are factual. Let us not give our own personal views or opinions. If we are going to make a statement on the Floor of the House, it should definitely be backed by facts. So, the assertion that the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP’s) Chambers is politicised without supporting evidence by the hon. Member for Feira was not in order.

So, hon. Member for Feira, please, stick to facts. Do not speculate.

You may proceed.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I issued a very general statement because this is about improving the judicial system. Having said that, I take note of your guidance, but I did not specify anything.

Madam Speaker, I was going to finally say that we need to emphasise on the alternative dispute resolution where parties should be encouraged to sit down and talk even before they go to court.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I also note that issues of financing are very key and I would like to agree with the report that we need to encourage financial independence and allow the Judiciary to get more of the revenue that comes from there but more so, we have so many natural resources such as minerals, and so, I urge the government to improve on its tax policy and tax these mines and all other multinational co-operations that are stealing from us.

Madam Speaker, having said that, I thank you.

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 206.

Madam Speaker: Proceed, what is the point of order, hon. Member?

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, the immediate past speaker was dressed – I do not know like the shirt untucked, …

Mr Mubika: It was like a skirt.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, I do not know what that was. We do not know whether it is a skirt or this is a new dress code here. I submit.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Yes, I saw that, and I was wondering what was hanging.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, just ensure that you tuck in your shirt properly. It was half tucked. The other side was tucked.

Mr Kapyanga: It is fashion.

Madam Speaker: It is a fashion, but not for the House. In the House, you have to dress properly in accordance with our rules. Thank you very much. Let us make progress. That was a wake-up call for those people who were feeling bored. Hon. Member for Luena, you may proceed.

Mr Anakoka tucked in his shirt.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I am just making sure that the shirt is properly tucked.

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, the people of Luena are grateful for the opportunity to debate this report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance which has been ably moved by the hon. Member for Katombola Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the issues of justice are of serious concern or interest to the people of Luena. So, we would like to add a few observations in support, of course, of the report.

Madam Speaker, in paragraph 4.0.2, your report has a heading which reads “Ethicise and or Adequacy of the Legal Framework”. On that page, your Committee’s report deals with issues to do with appointments and promotions. Your report correctly observes that in our Zambian system, the President appoints, at a certain level, on recommendations, the Judicial Service Commission.

Madam Speaker, this is a matter that– from time to time, whenever there are appointments to the Bench, there is a lot of debate. One of the reasons, maybe, the debate occurs is the inadequate exposure of the proceedings. In other ways, the public does not have the purview to see what and how this process actually unfolds. So, we would like to suggest that one of the steps that can be taken to improve that process is by making it public.

Madam Speaker, we should make use of the current technology in form of television. In other countries, we are currently able to see when the appointments to the High Court, the Supreme Court and other courts at that level. We see judges who are aspiring to be appointed being interviewed.

Madam Speaker, in the interview process, everything they have done and how they have performed in the past is brought to fore and that means people are able to see who deserves to be elevated.

Madam Speaker, this is because in many instances, we end up with judges who have got very poor records. However, because the public is not privy to their records, we get to know about them only when they have been appointed. Then the public gets to suffer as a result of some of those appointments that do not turn out as good as we would like them to be. So, that is one submission.

 Madam Speaker, your report also notes the issue of performance management. Whilst there are attempts to put in place a system that would monitor the performance of our men and women on the Bench, maybe, there is a need to improve this. I think the balance between an independent Judiciary and an unaccountable Judiciary is one that we tend to sometimes miss. This is because we have taken– indeed, being on the bench is a sacrosanct appointment in that you are given a responsibility to preside in certain cases over matters of life and death. However, independent as we would like the Judiciary to be, we should not miss the opportunity to hold our Judiciary to account. This means a performance management system is of necessity. Surely, we should be able to look at how a judge is performing. You have judges who have reserved judgments for two years. You have judges who have unwritten judgments for over two years. You have judges who have difficulties just with case management, generally, very disorganised in the way they are handling their cases. In the absence of a performance management system, these individuals go unnoticed and therefore, they go unpunished and the masses suffer in the process.

Madam Speaker, we also look at the issues of funding. Again, it is covered in the report that whilst Article 123 of our Constitution talks about ringfencing and making sure that there is adequate funding to the Judiciary, indeed, because the fiscal space is limited, the amount of money that can be made available can never really be adequate.

Madam Speaker, still, we can ask the question: How is the little money being applied?

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, there is an indication for a point of order.

Mr Anakoka: Iwe naiwe.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama South, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I have been listening to a very good friend of mine who is protesting my point of order, Hon. Anakoka.

Madam Speaker, let me refer to our Standing Order No. 65 which requires us to be factual and give verifiable information. I have heard him say that we have judges who are disorganised, judges who cannot organise certain things or put things in order when we know that a number of our judges are extremely qualified individuals, people who are called to the Bar. We even have the inner Bar like our State Counsel, the hon. Minister of Justice. Is he in order to cast such serious aspersions on extremely learned colleagues, actually, the only profession we treat with extremely high respect, without providing proof and verifiable information on this Table.

 I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we debate, let us stick to what is contented in the report. If the issue is not in the report, let us not generalise because remember, we are dealing with the integrity and standing of our Justices in the High Court and the Supreme Court. Unless, there is information to show that, indeed, what the hon. Member for Luena is saying is correct and it is contained in the report, may the hon. Member for Luena withdraw that general statement he made with regard to the Judges.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, well guided and it is duly withdrawn.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the Judiciary, the people of Luena would want to note that most times when we are talking about the Judiciary and the justice system, we tend to look at the higher courts. When we are talking about the subordinate courts, we end at the magistrates’ level. However, in our rural constituencies in particular, the local courts play a very important role in the dispensation of justice. In many cases, these courts are inadequately staffed. Therefore, the dispensing of justice timely gets affected.

Madam Speaker, just this morning, I got a report from my people in Nangula that at Nangula Court, a local court clerk has been transferred. Therefore, he has stopped working, but a replacement has not yet been deployed to the station. That means for two or three months now, no cases are being processed at that level and that is causing a lot of discontentment among our people.

Madam Speaker, overall, our justice system for many begins at a point when they fall far of the

law and they come in contact with the police. As the case is being processed from that level up to the court, there are other institutions that play equally important roles in between and we think that

it is important to emphasise the need for this value chain to be properly streamlined so that individuals who –

​Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Anakoka: Mr Speaker, it is a rare experience for one to start the debate with Madam Speaker, and conclude it with Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, before Business was suspended, I was just emphasising the point that the entire justice delivery system needs to function like a well-oiled machine. That includes the support system below our justices. We need to make sure that we look at the environment and the conditions in which they operate so that we do not experience some of the administrative inefficiencies that we experienced sometimes.

Mr Speaker, having said that and made the observations I have made, one notices that our judicial system is still populated by many hard-working and capable men and women. It is for that reason that if we were to have a performance management system, the few who might be denting the good performance of our Judiciary can therefore, be isolated and action taken. 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I support the report and thank you very much for the opportunity.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, thank you so much. I must mention that the large outcome from your hon. Members after tea break shows how interesting this report is.

Mr Speaker, permit me to thank the mover of this Motion, the seconder and all the hon. Members who have spoken to this important report.

Mr Speaker, I will start my submission with a quote from Nelson Mandela, who said:

“To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.”

Mr Speaker, human rights in the dispensation of justice is very important in any given society. This report has come at a time when the United States (U.S) Commission on Civil Rights had just condemned the diminishing levels of human rights in our country as a result of people being abducted and being transported from one town, in the night, to the other. In my mind, I have a young man from the Eastern Province –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, let me guide. Our terms of reference right now is the report which was laid on the Table. So, let us stick to that. We cannot bring in issues that we cannot substantiate. We are not privy to the report that came from America. What we are privy to is the report that was written.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, let us stick to that report to avoid curtailing each other.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, if you go to page 28 of the report, your Committee is urging the Executive to implement what is in the report.

Mr Speaker, when we talk about human rights, it is not everything that will have direct evidence. The evidence could be circumstantial or it could be conduct. Ignoring the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act is a human right issue and these are things that should be addressed.

Mr Speaker, when you read this Act and what is obtained in the report, you will see that there is a misfit. When you go to page 26 of the report, your Committee is urging the Government to be implementing these things.

Mr Speaker, in the dispensation of justice, investigations start with the police. When they investigate, they drop the document with the National Prosecution Authority (NPA). The NPA will agree to prosecute or not. So, the conflict that is coming as a result of that is that most of the prosecutors initially started as police officers. So, there is conflict of interest between investigators and prosecutors. For others, it is complex issue, feeling that maybe, because these are now prosecutors, they are now superior to the police, when these two institutions should work together.

Mr Speaker, you have a situation where the applicability of these investigations–when one citizen commits a crime, the first thing is, they are abducted, arrested and then say, we are investigating.  On other citizens, they investigate first, then arrest. If not, they will just issue a statement that this matter is under investigations.

Mr Speaker, we cannot continue saying, lay the evidence on the Table, when these things are happening. It is a fact that I have a young man from Petauke who was transported last night. I also have a young man from Lundazi who has been in police cells without being taken to court. These are facts I am speaking. I am not speaking to the law, I am speaking to facts. This being the House of the people, we must be factual. Here, I am stating facts.

Mr Speaker, even the acrimony that you see in societies beyond the House is the conduct of how people are being treated. If people were treated fairly, there would be no acrimony in the society we live and, in the environment, where we work.  However, when the conduct shows that there is nepotism and favouritism, then ...

Mr Haimbe SC.: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haimbe SC.: Mr Speaker, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 67, on irrelevance or repetition.

Mr Speaker, you warned the hon. Member who is currently on the Floor about the matters that he repeated a short while ago, regarding allegations of abductions and certain individuals, that –

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Mr Haimbe SC.: I am not speaking to you. To, –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Haimbe SC.: Do not speak to me!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

No, hon. Member for Kalulushi.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No!

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kalulushi, I am seeing here, and I never saw the hon. Minister point at you.

Interruptions

Ms Mulenga: He is even laughing and you are letting him get away with it.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Minister, continue. Let us avoid debating while seated.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker.

As I was saying, the Hon. Mr Speaker having guided the hon. Member on the Floor, yet he continued to raise the same issues regarding alleged abductions and certain unknown individuals or youths who had been abducted and so on and so forth, contrary to the Hon. Mr Speaker’s ruling.

Mr Speaker, the submission I make is that the hon. Member was out of order in doing so. It was contrary to Standing Order No. 67, which entitles the presiding officer to curtail, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Is it a ruling?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: … the hon. Member’s debate in respect of such conduct.

Mr Speaker, was the hon. Member for Lumezi in order?

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, especially hon. Member for Kalulushi, do not debate while seated. One of the qualities of a politician is that you have to be modest. On the contrary, if you want to seem very knowledgeable and the only one talking then you contravene the rules of this House.

Hon. Members, let us stick, when I guide, – As much as the hon. Minister debated his point of order, I had guided, so let us stick to that.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, continue.

Hon. Member: Ema Speaker aya!

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker, I am grateful on behalf of the people in Lumezi for your guidance. When the facts hit the right spot, that is the reaction you get.

Mr Speaker, when you read Standing Order No. 207(e), it is clear, I was abducted. It is a fact. I have mentioned that I am not speaking based on the law but on facts. As a matter of fact, with regards to human rights, in the dispensation of the justice system, people are being arrested, and not taken to court. We do not have enough human resources to manage the Judiciary. We have few judges, magistrates and prosecutors. The most important aspect when you talk about human rights is the squad that is abducting citizens in this country are the same people going throughout the country.

Mr Kapyanga: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu interjected.

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, as a matter of fact, …

Mr Mwiimbu interjected.

Mr Munir Zulu: … I am speaking based on facts, Mr Speaker –

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu:  Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Lumezi has brought in his own issue that he was abducted by the police, …

Mr Kapyanga interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: … that is what he has said.

Mr Speaker, now that he has brought his issue into contention and alleges that he was abducted when in actual fact, he was arrested by the police, …

Mr Haimbe, SC.: As a criminal!

Mr Mwiimbu: … for his conduct purported to have made allegations against Hon. Dr Musokotwane and Hon. Milupi and the police had issued a call out for him, which he ignored. When he ignored that call out, they decided to arrest him.

Mr Munir Zulu: Ah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is he in order to start making allegations and imputations of abduction? The police do not abduct, they arrest those who are said to have committed crimes.

Mr Speaker, is he in order to mislead the House and bring his reputation into question on the Floor of this House?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Lumezi is out of order because the Police Service is not an abduction institution.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

What the police do is arrest.

Ms Mulenga: Aleni!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us avoid bringing ourselves into the context of debate because we are not allowed to debate ourselves. So, in an event that others start throwing mud at us, we should not question them. So, let us avoid bringing ourselves into the context of debate. Also, let us not water down institutions of governance such as the police by saying that they abduct. I do not think that is the right word to use. What I have always known is that the police, since time immemorial, has always gone after people that have done wrong.

Hon. Member for Lumezi, you can continue.

Mr Munir Zulu: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance. As I wind up my debate, I must mention, …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised by the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This institution has rules and regulations. Some of the rules are codified in the Standing Orders while others are practices that have been adopted over the years just like any other Commonwealth Parliament.

Mr Speaker, when reports are tabled on the Floor, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 State what has been breached because now you are debating.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am trying to, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, you are debating, hon. Member. State what has been breached.

Mr Kampyongo: I am not debating.

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: I am not debating, Mr Speaker. You are giving chances to others to raise points of order on my count.

The standard procedure, Mr Speaker, is that when reports are tabled, the hon. backbenchers both on your right and left debate first, and then you give time to the Executive, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Kampyongo remained standing.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You are debating. When you rise on a point of order, you have to state – Hon. Member, may you resume your seat. Resume your seat.

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

Ms Mulenga: Namuonaula Parliament!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you have to state what has been breached.

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

May you take your seat. Let us operate within the rules.

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, one of the functions that I have to do is regulate Business in a manner I deem fit. You may continue with your point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, as I was saying, there are practices here that are adopted and not codified in the Standing Orders, however, we observe them. The procedure is that hon. Ministers are supposed to respond to the debates, and not curtail them by raising points of orders.

Ms Mulenga: Yes, it is true!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, you are saying that I should cite the Standing Order yet the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security who was just on the Floor did not cite any Standing Order but you sustained his point of order. I am trying to be helpful to you. Instead of hon. Members of the Executive responding through points of order–

I have been a Minister before, I know what I am speaking on, …

Ms Mulenga: Yes, a good Minister, in fact!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: …the hon. Members should wait for their time, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Mr Kampyongo: Yes, Sir. (remained standing)

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Patriotic Front (PF) Whip!

May you resume your seat.

Mr Kampyongo: I am resuming my seat, but you will give me a chance to, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Resume your seat.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as much as hon. Ministers are supposed to respond to reports, they are still hon. Members of this House. In an event that a breach has been committed, they can also rise because they are entitled to that. Any hon. Member of this House, except the presiding officer, is entitled to do that.

So, in an event that the hon. Whip for the PF has breached a rule, any hon. Minister is at liberty to cite that breach.

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. PF Whip!

May you resume your seat.

Mr Kangombe: Ina!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Member for Lumezi, continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Mr Speaker, I must mention that in my younger days, I used to admire Hon. Jack Mwiimbu as my role model. I do not know what has gone wrong.

Mr Speaker, it is a human rights issue which we cannot ignore that I cannot be omnipresent at once. You do not expect one human being to be in the High Court in Lusaka and at the magistrates’ court in Lumezi even if I practice witchcraft from Lumezi. It is not possible, it is in pari materia.

Mr Speaker, I used to admire many of Hon. Jack Mwiimbu’s debates during my younger days and he motivated me to come here, by the way. When we are dealing with human rights, we must pay particular attention to detail of how we are treating citizens. You cannot claim to be a state counsel and you want to be the most provocative human being and then preach justice on one hand and on the other hand you practice injustices. Where is the balance? When you go to the Judiciary, it is like this (stretching his hands), it should be balanced and not one where you have one hand on top of the other. I think we can do better.

Mr Speaker, this report should bring those pending reports awaiting feedback. I support this report, especially that I am motivated by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, I will be alternating, because of the way you, hon. Members have indicated, among the Independents, Patriotic Front and United Party for National Development. 

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mweetwa): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to add my voice to the Motion on the Floor of the House. Let me thank the mover for ably moving the Motion, presiding over a committee I had the privilege to have been Chairperson for.

Mr Speaker, let me indicate that as I support this Motion, there can be no justice without peace, democracy and the rule of law, which President HH has guaranteed in Zambia and all and sundry are enjoying it.

Mr Kapyanga:  Which one?

Mr Mweetwa: So, let me–

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, withdraw the word ‘President HH’ and replace it with the substantive name of the Head of State.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, which His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, President Hakainde Hichilema and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces in Zambia has guaranteed to all the citizens of this country.

Mr Speaker, let me proceed to also indicate that I think that the New Dawn Administration deserves kudos. The New Dawn Administration deserves commendation because those who were in this House in the last five years will agree that Committees of Parliament had no funding to go out of the country.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Mweetwa: Most of your Committees should have had trips out of the country, but they failed to undertake –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I hope you have been following the debate from the hon. Minister for Southern Province. Is he in order to debate your office, ...

Mr Kangombe interjected.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: … to the extent that he is insinuating that you as Parliament were not sending them to assignments as Committees, when he is one of the most travelled hon. Members in this august House?

Mr Speaker, that aside, is he in order to draw this institution into his debate? One of the rules of this House is that we do not debate ourselves, and that goes to the institution too? When we are discussing this institution, the Committee on Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee brings a report. It is at that point when we go into camera and disuse our issues. Is the hon. Member in order to start discussing functions of this august House in the manner he is doing? 

I seek your serious ruling and guidance, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let us all focus on the report and let us avoid bringing the institution into the context of our debate.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I was giving my statements arising from what your Committee’s chairperson indicated to this House that they travelled to Uganda. When I was chairperson for this same Committee, we never travelled out of the country and it is a known fact and non-debatable.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, let us avoid bringing this institution into our debates.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, thank you very much, and I am well guided. I was just thanking the New Dawn Administration for making funds available to all the arms of the Government to carry out their mandates in accordance with the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, let me now delve into the issue of limited or shortage of infrastructure as espoused by the chairperson of your Committee. I would like to agree over this particular issue which has plagued our Judiciary. Today, when you go to what is called the new courts complex, it is new but it is more than twenty/thirty years, but we still call it the new courts complex. When you go there, you will see that the infrastructure is very old. I have been wondering why we are in this particular shortage of infrastructure.

 

Mr Speaker, we must look at where we are and where we are coming from so that can see the possible solutions. It has been the lack of prudent management of public resources by the previous administration. Here on the Floor of this House, we argued, Budget in Budget out to say let us not take funds to fire tenders that are not a priority to this country. However, the Patriotic Front (PF) took money to fire tenders instead of putting money where it matters most.

Mr Speaker, we argued on the Floor of this House to say, let us not take money to teargas. Let us take money to where it matters most; the preservation of human rights.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I was talking about the rules of this institution. I rise on Standing Order No. 65 (1) (a).

Mr Speaker, the report rendered by your Committee is very clear and the contents are very clear. Is the hon. Minister who is part of the Executive and now supposed to be providing solutions because the Government is a going concern? He is supposed to be responding to the challenges raised in the report, other than digressing and start talking about things that he cannot verify on the Floor. The Budgets that he is referring to are not here to be put on the Table.

Mr Kangombe interjected.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security he will tell you that he is procuring more than we were procuring.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Colleague in order to digress from the report which is clear? I know that he has not had time to be on the Floor, him being a provincial hon. Minister. However, is he in order to digress from the report and start politicking in the manner that he is doing other than focusing on providing responses, as a member of the Executive, to what has been raised in the report?

Sir, I seek your serious ruling and guidance.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member you took time to debate your point of order.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance. I am riding on the comments made by the mover of the Motion about the shortage of infrastructure in the Judiciary and because we want a panacea solution, we must look at what brought us here; negligence, and poor management of national resources when given the opportunity. That is the point.

Mr Speaker, on the Floor of this House, we have argued, including on the budgetary allocation to non-constitutional offices that were passed on the Floor of this House using the arrogance of numbers. Instead of taking money where it matters most, which is infrastructure development, they allocate money to non-constitutional office, such as the office of the First Lady and they were passed here on the Floor of this House. That is why today, we are lamenting about this situation. If we do not talk about it now, it means that others are bound to do the same mischief in the future, where we are going, not in the present because the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is a prudent manager of economic affairs. We do not expect such kind of reckless expenditures as I have shown.

Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about the issue of political interference. We have seen that when we talk about the criminal justice system in Zambia, where we are – and somehow, I tended to agree with my colleague, the Member for Feira, Hon. Emmanuel Tembo, when he spoke about the interference at the Director of Public Prosecutions’ (DPP’s) office. It is not in the present, it is in the past because in the past, ahead of the 2021 elections, ten prosecutors who sought to ask for better conditions of service where dispersed to far and remote places by the then sitting Government of the Patriotic Front (PF). That is the interference, which Hon. E. Tembo was referring to.

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 (1) (a), which states that a member who is debating shall confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion. On the same matter, the hon. Minister of Justice raised a point of order when the hon. Member for Feira indicated that there is political interference in the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), but he was ruled out of order by the Hon. Madam Speaker. The hon. Minister got used to being in the Opposition for so many years. That is why he is debating like an Opposition Member of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kasandwe: Mr Speaker, is he in order to contradict his hon. Colleague and also to debate what the Hon. Madam Speaker ruled on without laying evidence on the Table to show the political interference in the office of the DPP.

Mr Speaker, I need your ruling.

Mr Speaker: Let me guide the House. When you rise on a point of order, you should avoid debating. The moment you debate, then my hands are tied. So, the hon. Member debated his own point of order. May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. When we talk about political interference, these are serious issues. Furthermore, there are things that may not be laid on the Table, but at law, they are in the public domain.

Mr Speaker, one of the ways to show political interference in the criminal justice system of our country is where some people were killed, a person was killed in Kaoma and no one was arrested until change of the Government. These are the issues we are talking about. In Solwezi, the top echelon of the then Ruling Party did warn the judges by saying: “judges do not behave as if you are in Kenya, this is Zambia, you must behave as Zambians not as Kenyans.” These are the issues and the hon. Members on your left cannot hide under the veil of points of order. It was a bad Government!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: It was a bad Government, and we must learn from that so that we do not do the wrong things that it did.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: On who?

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 (1). This House cannot be subjected to misleading statements and lies.

Hon. Government Members: Lies?

Mr E. Tembo: Mr Speaker, at no point did I ever submit to this august House, regarding the past of the Patriotic Front (PF). It is the current Government and the future Governments of this country. Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House as well as the nation and also himself by saying that I was referring to the previous Administration or any other Administration?

Mr Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you started very well, but this issue of debating your point of order, that is where the problem is. So, when you rise on a point of order, just state what has been breached, then it helps me as a presiding officer. However, if you debate your point of order, the picture changes.

Hon Member for Shiwang'andu, you may take have the Floor. We are alternating now

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang'andu): Mr Speaker, indeed, the report we have is a very important one. I want to thank the chairperson of this Committee for ably moving the Motion to adopt the report on the Floor. The contents of the report are very important to our people; the people of Zambia and therefore, we must attach importance to the discourse around these issues.

Mr Speaker, the issue of infrastructure challenges for the courts is a historic one, which requires concerted efforts and the Government should galvanise resources to ensure that we start dealing with this challenge. The Government is a going concern.  There was realisation to introduce certain layers of the courts as guided by the Constitution. We saw the introduction of the Constitutional Court and the Court of Appeal. These were very positive developments, and of course, what is needed now is to provide matching infrastructure. The current Government, in addition to that, has assigned judges to the provincial headquarters so that our people in provinces can access justice closer to them. Again, that will come to nothing if we do not ensure that we put matching infrastructure to accommodate these adjudicators. I want to commend the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security who ensured that what we left in place was implemented by accommodating the Judiciary at the new headquarters where there is some infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, indeed, resources will never be enough at any given time. When my colleague, the hon. Minister for Southern Province was talking, I would have loved it if he would have been saying, “look where we are in 2022 Budget, this is how much we have allocated to start dealing with this challenge, and in 2023, this is what we are going to do.” I think that is the language that we need. Apportioning blame will not provide the solutions. We are all citizens and we are part of the Government as the Legislature. So, we must make sure that when we are deliberating on these matters, we are sincere with ourselves.  I have already said that we have different layers of the courts and historically, we have not had much done. I can give a classic example of what needs to be done. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security would share with us that even now as we speak, because law enforcement agencies are part of the Judicial system, the state of the infrastructure is something we are all aware of; the police stations and facilities, but we had to take an affirmative action to try and start addressing these matters.

Mr Speaker, I am, therefore, encouraging the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to continue his effort from where we left so that his men and women in uniform, who are very critical in the dispensation of justice, are continuously being – it is not easy. The few houses you have seen and the police infrastructure that is dotted around the country are there because justice starts from there, like we have been told. How are people taken care of when they are still under police detention before their dockets are processed to go to the courts? So, it is a chain, Mr Speaker. It is a cycle. So, the hon. Minister of Justice should see what was done at the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security because it is not easy. Come any fiscal year, you will not have enough resources that will start going to infrastructure development under your ministry.

The measures you have seen at the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security Headquarters will just be a temporary measure. Like I have said, the layers of courts which have been introduced like the Constitutional Court, have to trot in between different courts just like the Court of Appeal will require permanent infrastructure. However, you need to collapse the box. Speaking from experience, it will not be easy because like I am saying, there will be no fiscal year here where we will appropriate money enough to address these challenges.

So, speaking from experience, I know that my colleague is trying to trivialise this matter by pointing to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). You can build local courts, but local courts are not what you only need. You will need the magistrates court at the jurisdiction where you are. So, there is a need, Mr Speaker, to take a deliberate step to ensure that resources are mobilised to gradually and bit by bit, start putting it into this infrastructure which will not a simple undertaking.

Sir, if you look the way we have been grappling with the correctional facilities, you will see that that problem has existed over the years and since independence. It was only a few years ago when we were able to open new doors to the new correctional facilities called correctional facilities and not prisons where we send people after they are sentenced. So, it is not easy because it takes years. So, my advice to the hon. Minister of Justice is that he finds a way and collapsing the box and see how he can go out there and mobilise resources to start addressing these infrastructure challenges under his ministry.

Yes, I know that the Government is trying to get infrastructure that is closer to the High Court. For instance, where the headquarters for the Department of Immigration is, there is a building that is yet to be finished. So, the hon. Minister of Justice should collaborate with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, find resources and finish that headquarters for the Department of Immigration which is almost complete. Then, the ministry can discuss and renovate the building which is near the Supreme Court so that it can modernise it to have some court rooms and court spaces for our judges to do their work in a conducive environment.

Mr Speaker, I thought I could add this voice and say blame game will never put solutions on the table. What is needed is to be focused because Governments come and Governments go, but at the end of the day, we have the people of Zambia to serve.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chala (Chipili): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this very important Motion, although it has been diluted on the Floor of this august House.

 Mr Speaker, the report is very clear. When the report talks about infrastructure, your Committee is not saying that previous Government should come in and mend it. The report is reporting to the New Dawn Government over the Infrastructure. Yes, we can refer to the previous Government at one point, but lamentations will not take us anywhere. The ball is in your court. Fix the things that you think were broken. This is in your hands. Lamenting will not help us at all.

 Mr Speaker, let me also just briefly talk about promotion and appointments of judges. In my view, when it comes to appointments and promotions, the report is talking about reforming the process of appointing and promoting judges by advertising the positions rather than giving the powers to the His Excellency the President and the Judicial Service Commission. So, if this is done, if we can reform as a people and as a country, we are going to see an independent Judiciary because those who are at lower levels will be able to put in their best because there is already a regulation in place. So, they will not be inclined to any political party in order for them to be where they are supposed to be. So, it should be regulated.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice should look at that. I know that he has prepared his response, but he should look at that point very seriously and see how he can come up with that regulation and reform the process so that we do not see or remove this notion of political hands.

Mr Speaker, whenever these judges are being appointed, we always say no, it is because the appointing authority had political lenses, something we would want to do away with so that there is no such notion. I am sure we are going to see an independent Judiciary. That way, people, as I have already said, will appreciate and put in their best as they will not be connected to any political powers that may be.

 Mr Speaker, with these few words, let me just say that the report is fantastic, but the way we have debated it, we have not given it the serious attention that it deserves.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add two or three sentences to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of this House today.

Mr Speaker, I will just look at two issues that were submitted by the mover of this Motion. The first one is a plan to have an intention of making the Human Rights Commission (HRC) to start adjudicating issues that border on human rights.

Sir, ab initio, I want to support this report. Indeed, looking at the prevailing situation in the country now, particularly issues that border on human rights, it very important that a separate entity which already exists in the name of the Human Rights Commission (HRC) can be empowered to adjudicate matters that relate to human rights crimes.                

Mr Speaker, of course, it is a process, but looking at the prevailing situation, like I said before, it is important that we actually lessen the burden of the Supreme Court, High Court and other courts that are actually designated to look at issues of human rights or constitutional issues. Therefore, I would stand and say that I support the proposal that hon. Colleagues have submitted or included in their report that the HRC ought to be actually empowered with that authority.

Mr Speaker, further, there is the issue of prudence in the manner cases are being adjudicated before the courts of law. There is a serious precedence going by what happened in 2016. There are issues which were brought or taken before the courts. To-date, we do not know what is happening. One among these issues is the petition that was actually lodged by the complaint in 2016, who is the current President, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema, and his legal team.

Sir, I think it is from the manner cases were adjudicated in the past that people would ask for prudence in the manner issues are handled before the courts. From just that alone, one would easily deduce that in the past, without citing the obvious, there were a lot of interferences from other organs. This could be seen or was evident from the way issues that were submitted before the courts were adjudicated.

Mr Speaker, there is also the issue of the nolle prosequi. A nolle prosequi last year, yesterday or today is still the same. Therefore, there is no difference or distinction today for people to take keen interest in condemning what is currently happening, when they did not do it before. We have a lot of examples of what happened years back. On the same date when people were supposed to hear their verdict, a nolle prosequi would be entered. That was a practice before and, therefore, I wonder why people would want to come and say it is wrong to have the same precedence today that was done in 2015 or 2016.

Mr Speaker, I think the best way to go is to ensure that the Committee that has been entrusted to superintend over the issues of legal matters comes up with a way on how these issues should be actually handled. I know it is not a simple process, but we will elect, as the House, to ensure that what will be provided by your Committee that is actually responsible to look at these issues is brought here. The House will deliberate on it and see whether it is inevitable to go that way. In an event that the House see it as a positive move, then we expect that the issue will be looked at from a different angle, unlike trying to just condemn everything. Our hon. Colleague were in power, but they never wanted to have these issues be adjudicated upon in a befitting manner.

Sir, there is also the issue of freedom of assembly and association, which falls under human rights. We have seen now how citizens of this country are enjoying these liberties. We are enjoying at all levels, regardless of ethnicity or political affiliation. I want to believe this is the way it was supposed to be even before.

Mr Speaker, I also want to believe that colleagues who were there and those yet to come can learn a big lesson from events of the recent past. We need to know that every citizen in this country ought to be treated with the respect that they deserve. Furthermore, the law that we serve under should be a law that should be applied evenl, without actually taking positions.

Mr Speaker, I want to believe that the freedom of movement is one of the fundamental freedoms that were easily derogated in the previous times. Nonetheless, I take it that as we are actually in charge now, everyone – and when I say everyone, it is everyone – as long as he or she is a citizen of this country, should be allowed to get to any place within the territory of this country. This is what I want to believe is supposed to be the case.

Mr Speaker, as we go forward with all the recommendations that the hon. Colleagues have put in their report, I stand firm to support the Motion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika):  Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Mr Amutike: Ah!

Mr Kapyanga: Sorry, it is Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, am I protected from hecklers on your right?

Mr Speaker, let me begin by thanking you for giving me this rare opportunity to add my voice and that of the people in whose name I act to the debate on this Motion.

Mr Speaker, the importance of access to justice cannot be overemphasised. Important institutions that help in the dispensing of justice need to be protected. Under the preamble of our Constitution, every citizen is guaranteed of their freedoms and of course, the nation of its democracy. It is not individuals that confer those rights upon other. It is the Constitution under Part III.

Sir, if anyone stands on the Floor of the House and mentions individuals that they are the ones who have conferred rights and liberties on us, that is so misleading. This is because it is the Constitution that gives us those rights. Even the rule of law is enshrined in the Constitution and those in positions of authority are supposed to enforce what the law says. It should not be something that we should make the Zambian people think that someone is doing them a favour. It is something that must be done for the benefit of our people and those whose interest is committed to our charge.

Mr Speaker, we have heard a number of pronouncements regarding detention. It has been said that people should not be detained beyond the stipulated period of forty-eight hours without being arrested or taken to court. However, we have a number of cases to cite where this has not been the case. There are many of them. Even right now, there are people who are still in detention beyond the stipulated period. They have not been taken to court, even when those cases they are facing are bondable or bailable.

Mr Speaker, the dispensing of justice must be seen to be acted upon. Even those institutions that are tasked with that responsibility must act so responsibly. We have heard lamentations by victims of abductions and torture. Recently, one youth from Petauke was picked up. After three days in jail, that person was not charged. The investigations and arrests will be done after having been abducted.

Mr Kambita: It is lawful abduction.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I think you were there when I gave earlier guidance that the police do not abduct. What the police do is to arrest. So, those people who are in police cells were arrested. Often times, when police would arrest someone, they have got information. So, let us not water down what the police do and bring in new terms that do not exist.

You can continue, but avoid that word.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, further, we have a case in point of Kawambwa and Pambashe constituencies, whose elected leaders are facing some court cases. There have been pronouncements by politicians that they will go for those seats even when judgment is not yet pronounced. This is a source of worry that there is a political hand influencing the course of justice.

Mr Speaker, as I add my voice to the debate on this very important report, let me also put it on record that perhaps, the independence of the Judiciary will only be attained when the Judicial Service Commission is allowed to recruit judges on merit.

Mr Katakwe: Why did you not do that?

Mr Kapyanga: You cannot be here in Parliament asking useless questions.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mr Kapyanga: Yes!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, may you resume your seat.

Withdraw that without reservations. You are a leader, be modest. You should be modest, you lose nothing.  These are your friends, be candid with whatever you say. So, withdraw that word and you proceed.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I withdraw and apologise. I also request that the hon. Members on your right should not be so provocative if they are my friends and if they are also leaders. Leaders are not provocative.

Mr Speaker, what I was saying is that if we are to attain the independence of the Judiciary, the Judicial Service Commission must be allowed to recruit judges because those judges will be recruited on merit. We have seen cadres being appointed as judges, and after appointment, that is when they delete their posts on Facebook.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Mwapela bwangu!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point order pursuant to Standing Order 65 (1) (a) (b).

Mr Speaker, I take great exception to the debate by the hon. Member on the Floor of the House suggesting that hon. Members of the Bench can be referred to as cadres. It is most unparliamentary language not based on any factual material whatsoever, especially with regards to the superior Bench and the recent appointments under the New Dawn Administration.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to debate in that unfactual and unethical manner.

I seek you ruling, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon Members, just like I guided earlier, let us avoid bringing other office bearers into the context of our debate. It is unfounded that those who are privileged to be appointed are cadres. What I know is that for someone to be appointed as judge, they should be an eminent person in the legal fraternity. They cannot be picked from elsewhere other than those that have practiced and their credentials meet the aspirations of the appointing authority. So, let us avoid bringing people in our debate, especially the Judiciary is an independent arm of the Government. So, it is worrying that law makers would want to reduce the Judiciary to that level. I think we should take exception in that regard. As law makers, let us know what we are dealing with. We would not want to contravene our minds by bringing the name of the Judiciary into disrepute. We know what the Judiciary is all about and who judges are. As much as it is a political House, let us have limits.

May the hon. Member continue.

My Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance, though I did not link anyone to politics. The name cadre as defined by Oxford Dictionary is a small group of people specially trained for a particular purpose or profession.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: So, hon. Member, are you trying to challenge my ruling?

Mr Kapyanga: Not at all, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: That is what you are doing. Let us avoid causing unnecessary acrimony in the House.

Mr Kapyanga: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the need for infrastructure also cannot be over emphasised. I will cite an example of Chinsali, which is supposed to have its own High Court. There is no proper infrastructure there. The same subordinate court infrastructure which is there is shared with the High Court. So, there is a need, indeed, to have infrastructure for the purpose of dispensing justice. Furthermore, when it comes to local courts, of course, it has been made easier for constituencies to build local courts using the enhanced Constituency Development Fund (CDF)

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I want to thank the chairperson of your Committee and Madam Speaker for having facilitated for the formulation of this report.

I thank you, Sir.

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: You did not want to thank Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbabala, I am so sorry we are against time. So, I will call upon hon. Member for Mpongwe, then after him, the hon. Minister will respond and the mover of the Motion will wind up.

Mr Ngowani (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion.

Mr Speaker, justice delayed is justice denied. The Judiciary has been facing a lot of challenges for many years. However, with the coming of the New Dawn Government, things have changed.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, for example, it is under the New Dawn Government where people are being given police bond and released on bail with reasonable amounts of money.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Mabeta: Correct, including Kampyongo!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, the other challenge that the Judiciary is facing is the lack of infrastructure. I can give an example of Mpongwe where we only have one local court which is shared between the magistrates’ court and the local court. So, this has made the Judiciary delay to deliver justice for cases in different courts.

Mr Speaker, the other challenge is transport. However, for the first time in the history of this country, under the New Dawn Government, we are seeing magistrates driving brand new Toyota Hilux cars. The way in which the New Dawn Government is doing things is commendable.

Mr Mabeta: Wakulekafye!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, the other challenge that we are facing in most of the districts is the lack of facilities for the Zambia Correctional Services. In the case of Mpongwe, I think all the detainees are kept in Luanshya, which is 65km from Mpongwe. When there is no transport, the detainees are not taken to court and this is delaying justice.

Mr Speaker, I want to put it on record that the New Dawn Government is responding to most of the challenges the Judiciary is facing, and this is commendable.

Mr Speaker, I want to propose that all hon. Members of Parliament should support the budget for the Ministry of Justice so that the Judiciary can implement solutions to the challenges and justice can be served.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I want to comment on the current situation in the country. I think serious Governments cannot support wrong doers. So, with this said, those who are found on the other side of the law should face the consequences. No one should support such things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngowani: Mr Speaker, this Government means well for the Zambian people, and I think that things will improve in the Judiciary. Dispensing or the delivery of justice will be improved in the country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Two hon. Minister will respond to this report. The first will be the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, the hon. Minister of Justice will respond second Minister and the mover of the Motion will wind up debate.

The Minster of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance on the Review of the Administration and Operations of the Judiciary in the Delivery of the Justice System in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I do take note.

Hon. Members: It is Mr Speaker!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker –

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Oh, sorry.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I do take note the recommendations of your Committee, which we shall look at, analyse and implement where possible. Most of the recommendations are very progressive. They will entail that the judicial system in the country will be enhanced if they are implemented. I also want to state without any fear of any contradiction that, I, on behalf of the New Dawn Administration, respect the rights of individuals as enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. I shall ensure, as long as I remain Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, that the police remain professional. I want to state that as far as a I am concerned, the police, of late, have been very professional in the way they are managing the affairs of the country.

Mr Speaker, I want to state and allay the assertions that are being made on the Floor of this House and outside, wherein it is alleged that the police have been involved in abductions.

Mr Speaker, as you have rightly indicated, the police do not abduct citizens. They arrest anyone who is allegedly committing offences in the Republic of Zambia. I call upon all those colleagues who are making allegations that the police have been abducting them, to report the matters to the police or alternatively, to the Police Public Complaints Commission. They also have the right to apply before the Constitutional Court pertaining to their rights if their grievances are genuine. We, as the New Dawn Administration, shall respect their rights if they invoke those rights. However, it is not correct to continuously make assertions that the police have been abducting citizens. It is not correct. It is our responsibility as leaders to support law enforcement agencies in this country, and I support the statement that was made by the hon. Member for Mpika Central where he indicated that we should ensure that the rule of law is observed in this country. One of the tenets of the rule of law is to ensure that those who have broken the law answer to those abrogations. That is what the Zambia Police and other security agencies are doing.

Mr Speaker, there was also an assertion that this Government has been abrogating the law pertaining to the appointment of judges. For the sake of those who were not in this House, I want to state that we warned our colleagues that the law which they were amending with impunity would catch up with them.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, there was a very comprehensive and progressive constitutional proposal that was presented before this House. Our colleagues, the Patriotic Front (PF) then, in 2015, due to the arrogance of numbers…

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: …decided to amend all those progressive provisions…

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: …and we, at the time we were in the Opposition, were defeated.  We had wanted a committee to make recommendation to the Judiciary for the appointments of judges. We had wanted the positions of judges to be advertised. They refused and voted against us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, they voted against the law which was being debated here.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: It is too much.

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what happened, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali: The hon. Minister is responding.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I know that now we are crying, but it is a lesson that in future when we are passing laws, we should not be looking at our positions and interests at the time.

Mr Mufalali: Correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: We should be looking at the interest of the nation. 

 Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, what has happened now and what happened that time is catching up with us here.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we should read our Standing Orders.

Mr Kampyongo: We read.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, our Standing Orders do not allow that.

Mr Kampyongo: I can raise a point of order.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

No, let us read our Standing Orders very well.

Mr Kampyongo: I have the rights.

Mr Mposha: Do not argue with the presiding officer.

Mr Anakoka: Why are you arguing with the presiding officer?  Mr Speaker, why are you allowing this?

Mr Mufalali: Resume your seat.

Mr Anakoka: You cannot be doing that, come on.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, resume your seat.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you cannot make progress if you do not refer to the past. I am referring to what happened on the Floor of this House. We voted for and against the Constitution throughout the night and we were voting on each Article here. We were being defeated and what is obtaining in the current Constitution was a result of arrogance of numbers by the PF then. Why should they now start complaining arising from the laws which they passed with impunity because they had the numbers?

Mr Speaker, I also want to state that this Government, your Government respects the rights of individuals and we shall continue respecting the rights as enshrined in the Constitution and in the laws. I would like to encourage anyone who feels aggrieved to go to court, other than making statements that are divisive and not in the interest of this nation.

Mr Speaker, I am aware of the difficulties the Zambia Police Service and the Zambia Correctional Service are facing.  As my colleague, Hon. Kampyongo indicated, we are making steady progress to ensure that we comply with the laws that are currently obtaining. However, there are difficulties due to financial constraints. I hope that when we consider the next Budget, all of us will seriously look at the budgetary allocation to the Ministry of Justice and to other security wings that are involved in the delivery of justice in this country.

Further and lastly, Mr Speaker, …

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Continue, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: … it is also important when we are making assertions to look at what happened in the immediate past.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, statements were made on the Floor of this House that detentions are justifiable even for periods longer than forty-eight hours. We do not agree, but that is what was stated on the Floor of this House. We will ensure that members of the public, if they break the law, are brought to court within forty-eight hours, unless there in certain situations such as when someone says, “Do not take me to court, or do not charge me until my lawyer is available.” With that transpiring, the period will exceed forty-eight hours. However, I want to state that we will endeavour to ensure that everyone is taken to court within forty-eight hours.

Mr Speaker, I am aware of the two individuals from Petauke who are being charged with gassing, the gassing which terrorised the people of this country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.): Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: … I am being urged to continue from where the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security left off.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Continue, Sir!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: However, I will return to the issues of persons who are in conflict with the law or facing the law such as allegations of terrorism and so on and so forth.

Mr Speaker, before I do so, allow me once again commend the work of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance, for the work done during the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly. As noted by your Committee in the first part of the report, Article 119 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia vests judicial authority and performance of judicial functions in the courts, and the courts are mandated to perform those functions in accordance with the Constitution and other written laws.

Furthermore, your Committee rightly notes that the Judiciary is not subject to the control or direction of any authority and is conferred with both functional and financial independence in order to effectively and efficiently dispense justice.

Mr Speaker, I wish to indicate that the administration of justice, which is carried out by the Judiciary, is largely dependent on the adequacy of the relevant provisions of the law. To that end, I am elated that your Committee observed that the legal and policy framework governing the administration and operations of the Judiciary is generally adequate. Despite the above stated position, I do realise that there were some observations made by your Committee that some laws needed to be amended to enhance the legal framework relating to the administration of justice. Therefore, on behalf of the Government, the observations and recommendations on the legal framework are duly noted.

Mr Speaker, may I equally state that we have duly taken note of your Committee’s observations and recommendations arising from part two of the report, which among others, are as follows:

1. the need to expeditiously promulgate the rules and procedures for the family and children’s court as well as the economic and financial crimes court;
2. that the Constitutional amendments that will be carried out should include changes to the structure and hierarchy of the courts by either allowing the Chief Justice to be an ex-official member of the Constitutional Court or to make matters determined by the Constitutional Court to be appealable to the Supreme Court in order to allow the Chief Justice to perform the supervisory role as the head of the Judiciary and to enhance the quality of judgements from the Constitutional Court;
3. the need to increase the jurisdiction of the small claims court;
4. the need to fund the infrastructure development programmes that the Government has undertaken to embark on;

Mr Speaker, I will be returning to that very shortly.

1. the need to provide more financial resources in order to employ additional judges, judicial officers and support staff in the Judiciary;
2. the need to improve the conditions of service of magistrates;
3. the need to put up a case management system software which will in turn improve judicial accountability; and
4. that the Government should take a holistic approach in addressing the challenges that affect the justice delivery system by enhancing the capacity of critical stakeholders of the Judiciary such as the Zambia Police Service, the Zambia Correctional Services (ZCS), the National Prosecutions Authority (NPA) and the Legal Aid Board.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Justice, in consultation with the Judiciary and other relevant stakeholders, has already began looking into some of the observations and recommendations such as the need to promulgate the relevant rules of court and, indeed, the need to undertake holistic judicial reforms.

Mr Speaker, allow me to state that the Government with the support of the World Bank undertook a public expenditure and institutional review of the Zambian Judicial sector to support a problem-driven and evidence-based inquiry into the challenges associated with the judicial system.  The report was recently launched. May I, also, hasten to mention that an action-taken report on your Committee’s observations and recommendations in the second part of the report will also be subsequently tabled before this august House. On behalf of the Government, I reiterate that the New Dawn Administration of His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, …

Mr Nkandu: Commander-in-Chief!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: … the Commander-in-Chief is fully committed to the ideals of separation of powers of the three arms of the Government, and will always respect and support the independence of the Judiciary as espoused in the Constitution. Therefore, the Government will take your Committee’s observations and recommendations seriously and will endeavour to ensure that the requisite legal framework and environment are created and sustained for the effective and efficient dispensation of justice.

Mr Speaker, I will, now, turn, specifically, to address some of the concerns stated in the report, and which have been echoed on the Floor of this House, this afternoon, with regard, in particular, to the infrastructural challenges the Judiciary is facing. Your Committee’s report, on page seven, makes the following observations with respect to the superior courts, specifically, the Supreme Court building in Lusaka. It was constructed in 1957, and has not undergone any major renovations since that time. On page eight, the more recently constructed subordinate court was built in 2006, and, again, no serious maintenance has been seen of that infrastructure from that time. This speaks volumes about where we find ourselves as a country because, clearly, the problem of infrastructural challenges that are being faced by the Judiciary is historical as per your Committee’s submissions in the report on the pages I have quoted.

Mr Speaker, previous administrations did not pay any heed to the challenges that the Judiciary has been facing. From 2006 to date, the subordinate courts have not seen any serious maintenance. The question, therefore, is what the New Dawn Government is doing to address these historical challenges left by others. Happily, I can say that the New Dawn Administration has risen to the challenge as has been noticed from the past two National Budgets that have been passed since it took over the affairs of this country. Each of the Budgets has had significant and specific allocations for infrastructural development. The New Dawn Administration is walking the talk despite having faced some serious historical challenges in the manner in which affairs of the Judiciary were not prioritised, as it were.

Mr Speaker, there was a lot of mention of the fact that some of the superior courts occupy the building belonging to the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security. I would like to mention, for the benefit of the people of Zambia and, indeed, hon. Members of this House who may have raised that concern, that, again, in walking the talk, the New Dawn Administration, despite the fact that the Constitutional Court for example, was created in the 2016 Constitution, is the one that is now putting in place the necessary infrastructure for that superior court. A building or two have been secured by the Government in order to house that court, which was created without any thought of putting infrastructure in place for it. As such, that lends credence to the argument that there was a lack of prioritisation. However, that is being addressed with the responsible approach that the Government has taken to governance matters in general and to matters relating to our Judiciary whose efficiency is a direct function of the infrastructure that it has in place to enable it execute its functions.

Mr Speaker, in short, we, as the Ministry of Justice, support the report and have taken due note of the various matters that have been raised in there and as a reasonable Government, as the New Dawn Administration, we have allocated resources to addressing those concerns and we will continue to do so in subsequent Budgets so as to make sure that justice is served to the people of Zambia as a whole.

Mr Speaker, I have run out of time and so, I cannot continue the debate by my hon. Colleague. Suffice to mention that those who infringe the laws of this country will face a very fair and just system, including incarceration where appropriate.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to wind up debate on behalf of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, allow me to pay glowing tribute to all the hon. Members who have debated on this particular report, particularly, the vice chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chawama and all other hon. Members too numerous to list, including the hon. Ministers.

Mr Speaker, we are indebted, as your Committee, for the opportunity given to us to submit this report and the support that the hon. Members have given this report. A number of issues have come out and we leave that to the Executive. I thank you for the opportunity once more and I thank the hon. Members of the House. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES

(Debate resumed)

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, indeed, when business was suspended yesterday, I had just begun to wind up. In so doing, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who debated, in particular, on the Social Cash Transfer and also on the Zambia Flying Doctor Services.

Mr Speaker, I urge all the hon. Members to support the efforts and the works of the Zambia Flying Doctor Services because this is a service that can save a life. For example, if my hon. Colleagues here, the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi whilst on a campaign, deep down in the hinterland, develops testicular torsion, or, indeed, a strangulated inguinal hernia, he may just require the services –

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members interjected.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Dundumwezi, what is the problem?

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, the doctor has given an example on me of a disease that I do not understand. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 221. Is he in order to cite me as an example of a disease that I do not understand and I do not know that language that he has used? Is in order not to translate what he means on me? I need your serious ruling. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Lukulu East is out of order for dragging one of the hon. Members into his debate. We should avoid doing that. I know you were joking as traditional cousins, but let us avoid that. I think the hon. Member for Dundumwezi is a bit agitated about the hernia. May the hon. Member for Lukulu East Continue.

Mr Sing’ombe: Translate!

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, my hon. Colleague insists that I should translate what testicular torsion is. If you allow me, I can do that.

Hon. Members: Yes!

Dr Kalila: So, testicular torsion is a very painful condition where the testicle twists, …

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Laughter

Dr Kalila: … and it is extremely painful, it is actually a medical emergency. Without immediate intervention, one can actually lose their testicle.

Laughter

Dr Kalila: So, I was very concerned about my hon. Colleague here. That is why we need the Zambia Flying Doctors Services. Thank you very much to all the hon. Members.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: That is a very strange disease.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1838 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 23^rd June, 2023

____________

 

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

 

CHINSALI BUS STATION CONSTRUCTION

 

303. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

 

1. what the progress, in percentage terms, on the construction of Chinsali Bus Station in Chinsali District was, as of August, 2022; and

 

1. when the project will be completed.

 

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the progress in percentage terms on the construction of the Chinsali Bus Station in Chinsali District as of August, 2022 stood at 15 per cent.

 

Madam Speaker, the project will be completed in December, 2024, subject to availability of funds.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.