Wednesday, 21st June, 2023

Wednesday, 21^st June, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

GUIDANCE ON THE PROCEDURE REGARDING THE ARREST OF HON.MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT ON AND OFF THE PRECINCTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 7^th June, 2023, when the House was considering matters of urgent public importance, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency, raised a matter of urgent public importance on the practice by the Zambia Police Service of waiting for hon. Members of Parliament outside Parliament grounds and arresting them without issuing call-outs, which, he referred to as abduction. He mentioned Mr C. Shakafuswa, hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu Constituency, Mr R. K. Kalimi, hon. Member of Parliament for Malole Constituency and himself as some hon. Members who had been abducted in such a manner. He, therefore, sought clarity on the matter.

In my immediate response, I requested Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to provide a response to the issues raised by Mr Munir Zulu, MP. In response, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, stated that hon. Members of Parliament did not have immunity on criminal matters. He further stated that there was no hon. Member of Parliament who had been abducted and that every arrest of an hon. Member of Parliament had been based on allegations against such an hon. Member.

Hon. Members, after a protracted debate on the matter, I reserved my ruling to enable me provide guidance to the House on the arrest of hon. Members of Parliament on or off the precincts of the National Assembly.

Hon. Members, I now proceed to render my guidance.

Hon. Members, the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia, among other things, grants hon. Members of Parliament various immunities. These include the freedom from arrest, which is provided under section 5. Section 5 states as follows:

“5. For the duration of a meeting members shall enjoy freedom from arrest for any civil debt except a debt the contraction of which constitutes a criminal offence.”

From the foregoing authority, the following is clear:

Members are only exempt from arrest for a civil debt and not a debt whose contraction constitutes a criminal offence;
This exemption is only available when the House is in session; and
Members are not exempt from arrest for a criminal offence.

Hon. Members, having established that hon. Members have no immunity from arrest for criminal offences, allow me to draw your attention to Section 5(a) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, which provides that:

“Where a member is arrested for a criminal offence, the arresting officer shall inform the Speaker of the arrest within forty-eight hours of the arrest.”

From the foregoing authorities, it is evident that hon. Members of Parliament can be arrested for criminal offences while Parliament is in session either off or on the precincts of the Assembly. However, once an hon. Member of Parliament has been arrested, the arresting officer must notify me of the arrest within forty-eight hours.

Hon. Members, the manner and form of arrest by police officers is laid out in the Criminal Procedure Code, Chapter 88 of the Laws of Zambia, whose interpretation is the preserve of the courts. I, therefore, cannot delve into whether the arrests complained of by Hon. Munir Zulu, MP, were carried out in compliance with the law.

I thank you.

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RULINGS BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON WEDNESDAY, 7^TH JUNE, 2023, BY MR R. K. CHITOTELA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PAMBASHE CONSTITUENCY AGAINST HON. F. TAYALI, MINISTER OFTRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, ACTING AS MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT FOR ALLEGEDLY GIVING FALSE INFORMATION REGARDING THE STATUS OF THE CANCELLED MPOROKOSO/NSAMA/NSUMBU ROAD PROJECT

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Wednesday, 7^th June, 2023, when Ms B. Nyirenda, hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi Constituency, had just asked Question for Oral Answer No. 277, Mr R. K. Chitotela, hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe Constituency raised a point of order.

In the point of order, Mr R. K. Chitotela, MP, asked whether Hon. F. Tayali, acting hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, was in order to give false information to the House. The point of order was based on a statement made by Hon. F. Tayali, MP, that the Government was going to advertise for another study for the Mporokoso/Nsama/Nsumbu road project. He stated that this statement was contrary to the statement issued by the substantive office holder, who had informed the House that the road project was cancelled because the Government was no longer taking on any more projects.

In her immediate response, the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling in order to enable her to comprehensively study the matter. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, a review of the verbatim record of the proceedings of Wednesday, 7^th June, 2023, revealed that Mr R. K. Chitotela, MP, in raising his point of order, did not cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of hon. Members, rule of procedure or practice that had been breached by Hon. F. Tayali, MP, as required by Standing Order No. 131(3) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021. On that basis, the point of order is not admitted.

Hon. Members, I have observed, of late, a tendency by hon. Members to rise on points of order without complying with the requirements of Standing Order No.131(3). I, therefore, remind hon. Members, once again, of the need to clearly cite the rule, law, privilege, practice or procedure breached whenever they raise points of order.

POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON WEDNESDAY, 7^TH JUNE, 2023, BY HON. ENG. C. NZOVU, MINISTER OF GREEN ECONOMY AND ENVIRONMENT AGAINST HON. B. M. MUNDUBILE, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION AND MR S. KAMPYONGO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SHIWANG’ANDU CONSTITUENCY AND PATRIOTIC FRONT (PF) PARTY WHIP FOR BEING ABSENT FROM THE HOUSE WHEN THE HOUSE WAS CONSIDERING THE MINISTERIAL STATEMENT ON THE 2023/2024 CROP FOCUS

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 7^thJune, 2023, when the House was considering a ministerial statement presented by Hon. R. P. Mtolo, Minister of Agriculture, on the Crop Forecast Results for the 2022/2023 Agricultural Season, and the 2023/2024 Crop Marketing Arrangement, and Ms B. Nyirenda, hon. Member of Parliament for Lundazi Constituency was on the Floor, Hon. Eng. C. Nzovu, MP, Minister of Green Economy and Environment, raised a point of order. The point of order was made pursuant to Standing Order No. 44 and 49 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, which outline the duties of the Leader of the Opposition and Party Whip.

In his point of order, Hon. Eng. C. Nzovu, MP, enquired whether Hon. B. M. Mundubile, MP, Leader of the Opposition and Mr S. Kampyongo, hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Constituency and the Patriotic Front (PF) Party Whip, were in order to be absent from the House, during serious deliberations relating to the development of agriculture in the country in light of the duties bestowed on them by the Standing Orders.

In my immediate response, I reserved my ruling in order to study the matter, particularly, since it related to the duties of the constitutionally established Office of the Leader of the Opposition, and the office of Party Whip as outlined in the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021. I have since studied the matter and I now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order by Hon. Eng. C. Nzovu, MP, raises the following issues:

the duties of the Leader of the Opposition and PF Party Whip, in this case; and
whether the two Members’ absence at the time, amounted to a breach of their duties.

Hon. Members, I wish to state from the outset that the Standing Orders outline the duties of the Leader of the Opposition and a party whip. In particular, Standing Order No. 44 and 49 provide as follows:

“44. Duties of the Leader of the Opposition

The Leader of the Opposition shall –

liaise regularly with the Speaker, the Leader of Government Business in the House and the Government Chief Whip on business of the House;
study Government policy and propose possible alternatives in his or her debate; and

(c) assist the presiding officers to maintain discipline in

the House.

49. Duties of Party Whip or Whip

The duties of a Party Whip or Whip includes –

ensuring attendance and participation of party or independent members in the House;
keeping party or independent members informed of parliamentary business;
ensuring all or an adequate number of party or independent members are present during voting;
coordinating parliamentary business with the Government Chief Whip and the whips; and
assisting the presiding officers to maintain discipline in the House.”

Further, prominent authors on parliamentary practice and procedure, S. L. Shakdher and M. N. Kaul in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Seventh Edition, (New Delhi, Lok Sabha, 2016,) state, at page 156, as follows:

“The Leader of Opposition is the official spokesman of the minority or minorities and to that end he zealously watches any encroachment on their rights. His task, though not so difficult as that of the prime minister, is of sufficiently great public importance because he has to maintain a team - a ‘shadow Cabinet’- ready to take over administration.

The Leader of an Opposition has a very special responsibility to Parliament and to the nation. At moments of danger, moments specially of foreign danger, and particularly also in matters affecting the security and safety of the realm, while he remains a critic he must in a sense be a partner and even a buttress of the Government to which he is opposed. This dual responsibility he must discharge with fidelity…Vigilance is his hallmark and must, therefore, be in his place constantly.”

Furthermore, at page 157 and 158, the authors state as follows on the duties of a Party Whip:

“The duty of keeping the members of a party on hand accordingly devolves upon the Whips … In fact, the efficient and smooth working of parliamentary democracy depends to a very large extent on the Whips of the party in power or opposition.

The main function of the Whip is … to keep members of their party within sound of the division bell whenever any important business is under consideration in the House. Whips are responsible for the attendance of the members at the time of important divisions … They keep members supplied with information about the business of the House and enforce party discipline … And it is through Whips that members of a party come to know about their leader’s views and the plans into which the leader thinks it necessary or expedient to initiate them. The Whips are active agents within the parties - a channel of communication whereby one party negotiates with another concerning topics for debates or conduct of business in the House.”

Hon. Members, in investigating the matter, I had recourse to the relevant video footage and verbatim record of the material day. I confirm that when the House commenced its sitting at 1430 hours, Hon. B. M. Mundubile, MP, and Mr S. Kampyongo, MP, PF Party Whip were present. However, although the verbatim record and video footage did not capture the Leader of the Opposition and PF Party Whip leaving the Chamber or the circumstances that led to their departure, I note that the footage showed that at the time the point of order was being raised, the two hon. Members were not present in the House. The footage further revealed that Hon. B. M. Mundubile, MP, and Mr S. Kampyongo, MP, were present in the House when it resumed sitting after the twenty-minute health break.

Hon. Members, from the foregoing, it is clear that the Leader of the Opposition and PF Party Whip were not present in the House when it was considering points of clarification arising from the ministerial statement rendered by Hon. R. P. Mtolo, MP. Admittedly, the proceedings at the time were crucial to the nation as a whole. Therefore, in view of their duties, which I outlined earlier, it would have been ideal for them to be present in the House to hear the hon. Minister’s responses. That notwithstanding, I find that by being absent from the House, the two hon. Members were not in breach of their duties for the following reasons:

the debate on the ministerial statement successfully continued, until the House proceeded to consider the next item on the Order Paper; and

the two hon. Members returned to the House and continued to actively participate in the proceedings of the House after the break.

Hon. Members, in view of the foregoing, the Leader of the Opposition, and the PF Whip, were not out of order.

Hon. Members, since I have taken time to give detailed account of the duties of the Leader of Opposition and party Whips, I cease this opportunity to remind the various leaders in the House to take their duties very seriously. This is because I have observed a growing trend by some leaders in the House to relegate their duties of assisting us the presiding officers maintain order in the House. Unfortunately, this tends to affect the efficiency in which the House transacts its Business. I, therefore, urge the leaders to take their duties very seriously to enable the House transact its business efficiently and effectively.

I thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker: There are three indications. Depending on how we proceed, not all of them might be admitted or might be heard. So, we start with the hon. Member for Chilubi.

MR FUBE, HON. MEMBER FOR CHILUBI, ON MR MWIIMBU, THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL SECURITY AND MR HAIMBE, SC., THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, ON THE UNFAIR ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN THE COUNTRY

Mr Fube (Chilubi): On a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, thank you –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Can we have some order please? There are too many consultations. Can we listen to the matter of urgent public importance?

You may proceed hon. Member for Chilubi.

Mr Fube: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My matter of –

Mr Munsanje: Question!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, can I be protected from that charlatan.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members can we listen to the hon. Member for Chilubi. Let him express himself in the best way he knows.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is addressed to the hon. Minister of Justice as well as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and National Security. It is to do with administration of justice in the country.

Madam Speaker, the constitution in Article 2 bestows on us the duty to defend the Constitution. Further, Article 8(d) talks about non-discrimination in terms of national values, among them social justice, human dignity and many other factors.

Madam Speaker, my matter is that about two days ago, we had about twenty-one members of the public including one incarcerated president of a political party. If you go back to history, in the same week they –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chilubi, what is the matter of urgent public importance? Please do not debate.

Mr Fube: Unbiased–

Madam Speaker: Order, let me guide.

If you bring in too many issues, there will be no opportunity given to the other side to respond. So, just raise the matter of urgent public importance precisely and to the point. You may proceed.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, my matter is unfair administration of justice or biased administration of justice in the country. I was referring to an event that occurred. An event is very important to mention. There were twenty-one members of the public incarcerated. In same week they were demonstrating about the dual carriageway, there were those who were protesting on homosexual rights.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member. Now you are introducing so many issues. What is the matter of urgent public importance you want to raise?

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I wanted to raise –

Madam Speaker: In relation to the people that you said were arrested. What has happened to them?

Mr Fube: I wanted to demonstrate the difference and the variance.

Madam Speaker: No, do not debate, just bring out the matter.

Mr Fube: What has happened to them is that they have been incarcerated without following the law.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member. I have heard. From what you have said, these people are incarcerated that means they are before the courts of law. As you know, our rules and procedure do not allow us to discuss or debate a matter that is before the courts of laws. So, that matter is not admitted.

MR MUNIR ZULU, HON MEMBER FOR LUMEZI, MR LUFUMA, ON THE ACTING HON. LEADER OF GOVERNMENT ON BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON THE TRANSPORTATION OF ILLEGAL DRUGS

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for permitting the people of Lumezi to raise an urgent matter of public emergency importance directed at acting leader of Government business.

Madam Speaker, last year, the District Commissioner (DC) of Lumezi was arrested for having been accused for stealing maize and some fertiliser. Then, the Vice-President told the House that they had gotten rid of that DC. Unfortunately the DC is still in office. Today, we have woken up to news that a truck carrying 990kg of marijuana –

Madam Speaker, for you to travel from Lumezi to Lusaka you pass through so four toll gates –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member. Do not debate; now you are debating. What is the matter of urgent public importance? By the way, hon. Member for Lumezi, it is matter of urgent public importance, you always mix the two. Just precisely state what your concern is.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I have difficulties to just speak without bringing out a point.

Madam Speaker, this is a Government of Zambia (GRZ) vehicle and the fear is how many more GRZ vehicles are transporting drugs in this country? We are here in Parliament and I am receiving phone calls from the constituents asking about who had transported 990kg of marijuana passing four toll gates and paying toll fees?

Madam Speaker, why I brought in reference of the DC is because last year we were told that they had gotten rid of that DC. Who is moving this contraband?

Madam Speaker, Zambia has about 116 districts. So, how many GRZ vehicles are being used? You cannot tell me that one would move from Lumezi to Lusaka and the truck with 990kg of marijuana is only impounded in Lusaka. I seek your guidance.

Madam Speaker: Clearly, the matter, again, is before the police and is investigating it. Why can we not give the police some time to investigate? Of course, it is not in the interest of the House to see such things happening. If they are not being attended to, it is even of more concern. Now, that the matter is with the police, let us leave the police to do its work. Whatever the outcome of the investigations or proceedings, if we are not satisfied with them, then, hon. Members can bring the matter up before this House. Maybe, as a way of a question so that the hon. Minister of Justice and, indeed, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security can address the matter. For now, I believe it is a bit premature for us to jump on the matter because the police are still investigating. So, let us give it time to do its work.

MR MUMBA, HON. MEMBER FOR KANTANSHI, ON ENG. MILUPI, HON. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT AND ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, ON KWACHA APPRECIATION AGAINST THE UNITED STATES DOLLAR

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I wish to raise is directed at the acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Eng. Milupi.

Madam Speaker, we have seen a sharp rise of the Kwacha against the United States (US) Dollar. The public, especially companies, are concerned that the sharp rise of the Kwacha against the Dollar will have an effect especially on those companies that are receiving their payments in Dollar and then they, obviously, have to change it to Kwacha.

As people of Kantanshi, a mining town, we want to know what some of the immediate measures the Government will take to ensure that we do not see any job losses or companies withholding expenditure hoping that the Dollar will rise again to where it is supposed to be. Currently, everyone has been planning for a Dollar to be around K20. Now I am told it is around K17 and it is anticipated to get to around K15. So, if you were expecting US$10,000 to be K200,000, now, you are receiving K170,000, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. Mumba: … meaning you are making a loss of close to K30,000. What are some of the immediate actions the Government will take to smoothen this imbalance? Yes, it is good for the growth of our economy, but it is also hurting the planning of certain businesses.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence on this matter.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I am sure it is something that has happened in the past day or so. We have seen the Kwacha gaining value. I think as Zambians – For me, I would celebrate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Anyway, that is my personal view. By way of guidance, hon. Member for Kantanshi, put in an urgent question that will give the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning an opportunity to come and answer that question. It does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. You can put it in as an urgent question and the hon. Minister or acting hon. Minister will be able to tackle that. It will give them time to also assess and see where we are going.

Thank you.

MR ANAKOKA, HON. MEMBER FOR LUENA, ON MR TAYALI, HON. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, ON ONLINE HAILING TAXIS

Mr Anakoka (Luena): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, the people of Luena are grateful for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, the matter of urgent public importance I am raising is directed at the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, and it is to do with the imminent loss of employment for many young men and women who have invested their hard-earned cash into online hailing taxis such as Yango, Ulendo and similar entities.

Madam Speaker, a quick background to this is that the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) had –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Just raise the matter. Do not introduce other things, hon. Member. Just raise the matter and then you will be guided accordingly.

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. Indeed, the matter is to do with the decision that RTSA had made previously to allow operators to have their vehicles branded even though they did not have red number plates as well as passenger service vehicle (PSV) licences. Now, RTSA has reversed that decision and –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, not to cut you short, but I think that is a matter that is suitable to be asked as an ordinary question. So, put in a question and the hon. Minister will be able to come back with answers. It is a matter that has been ongoing. There is a lot of dissatisfaction here and there, but please, put in an ordinary question and the hon. Minister will be able to provide the necessary answer.

Thank you very much.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE FORFEITED K65 BY MS FAITH MUSONDA TO ACC AND PROCEDURES USED TO TRANSFER THE MONEY TO CONTROL 99

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) on behalf of (the Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me yet another opportunity to provide more details to this August House and indeed to the nation regarding the K65,333,046 and US$57,950 forfeited to the Government of the Republic of Zambia by Ms. Margaret Chisela Musonda also known as Faith Musonda. This is especially important given recent insinuations by the Leader of the Opposition in this August House thot the money had been stolen. In particular, I will provide the details on the process of how the money was collected, secured, verified and authenticated by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), as well as the procedures for depositing and transferring the said amount. Further, I will in turn explain the documents I laid on the Table of this House on I3^th, and l4^th June 2023.

Madam Speaker, on Friday 17^th September, 2021, BoZ received a call from the Zambia Police Service in which BoZ was requested to go and verify and authenticate huge sums of money that were found at a house in Lusaka. The Bank of Zambia proceeded to the site where the said amount was found to have been concealed in thirty suitcases and two black safes. Upon arrival, BoZ staff explained to the police the procedure for estimating the amounts of the scene and how the subsequent verification would be undertaken at the BoZ using the authentication equipment.

Madam Speaker, the money counted of the scene was estimated at K65,330.00 This was estimated by counting the number of bundles and loose packets found at the scene. For the sake of clarity, a bundle contains 500 bank notes and a packet contains 100 bank notes. One bundle of United States Dollars bank notes amounting to US$57,950 was also found of the scene which was also collected for verification at the BoZ.

Madam Speaker, following the estimation by BoZ staff, the money was packed in trunks that were then locked with padlocks and seals. The seal numbers and keys for the rocks were kept by the police while the sealed trunks containing the money were taken to BoZ.

Madam Speaker, on 20th September, 2021, the police and staff from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) went to BoZ to verify the money that was in the sealed trunks and in the custody of BoZ. ln the verification, staff from the Zambia Police Service, ACC and BoZ had to make sure that the locks and the seals on the trunks were untampered. Let me state that this was, indeed, the case.

Madam Speaker, after breaking the seals and opening the locks, the bundles and the loose packets were counted and it was confirmed that the numbers tallied with what was counted at the scene. The money was then loaded on the money verification and authentication machines. Upon verification and authentication, the total value of the money was actually K65,333,046, which was K3,046 higher than the amount estimated of the scene. The total amount of dollars was as estimated which was US $52,950.

Again, I repeat: This amount of money which was authenticated was K3,046 higher than the amount estimated at the scene. The total amount of dollars was estimated and was US$57,950.

Madam Speaker, the K65,333,046 was denominated as follows:

the number of bundles of K100 notes was 841 and the loose pieces were twenty amounting to 420,520 pieces. The total value, therefore, of the K100 notes was K42,052,000;
the number of bundles of the K50 notes was 667 and the loose pieces were sixteen, making a total of 333,516 pieces with a monetary value of K16,675,800;
the number of bundles of the K20 notes was 600 and the loose pieces were nine, making a total of 330,009 pieces. The monetary value was K6,600,180;
there were just six pieces of K10 notes making it K60 in value;
there were two bundles of K5 notes and the number of pieces was 1,000 making it K5,000 in monetary value; and
there were three loose pieces K2 notes and the total monetary value was K6.

The total was K65,333,046.

Madam Speaker, the amount in United States Dollars was US$57,950 and was denominated as follows:

there was one bundle of US$100 notes and the number of loose pieces was seventy-nine. The pieces in total were 579. The monetary value was US$57,900; and
there was one loose US$50 note.

The total was US$57,950.

Madam Speaker, both the Kwacha and United States Dollars were re-sealed in trunks and held in custody by BoZ.

Madam Speaker, I shall explain how the money was transferred. On 4^th November, 2021, the ACC requested BoZ to transfer the verified amounts to the ACC Assets Forfeiture Account held at Zanaco. The Kwacha Account number at ZANACO is 1455356300194. It was on this basis that BoZ on 5^th November, 2021, converted the cash in its custody into electronic value.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, firstly, by crediting the suspense account and debiting the cash holding account in the books of BoZ.

Madam Speaker, for this, we will display deposit slip number one, which is on this document. We have numbered the documents so that people, like them, can easily read them out because we have realised that that they have difficulties in reading these documents.

Madam Speaker, secondly, debiting the suspense account and crediting Zanaco for the onward crediting of the ACC Assets Forfeiture Account held at ZANACO. Again, for this, we will display the said document which, for this purpose, is labelled number two. It is over here.

Madam Speaker, on 5^th November, 202l, the US$57,950 was handed over to the ACC. That is in cash.

Hon PF Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the ACC deposited the money into the ACC Assets Forfeiture Account held at Zanaco. For this, the instruction slip, number three, is hereby attached.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Mwaloba ilyauma.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the transfer of the K65,333,046 from BoZ to the ACC Assets Forfeiture Account held at Zanaco is in itself a deposit. I repeat for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition. The transfer of the K65,333,046 from BoZ to the ACC Assets Forfeiture Account held at Zanaco is in itself a deposit. For security reasons, –

Interruptions

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, if we listen, we will be able to follow what the Acting hon. Minister is saying. Please, just open your mind. Do not have answers already; listen first.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, for security reasons, it was a preferred mode of deposit as opposed to moving large amounts of physical cash from BoZ to Zanaco.

Hon. PF. Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, with the modernisation of the payment system, this mode of deposit is very normal.

Mr Nkandu: Correct!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, in Zambia today, we have the options to use various payment methods which include electronic money, internet banking, mobile banking and the real-time gross settlement (RTGS) system through which these transactions were conducted. The Government of the Republic of Zambia is in the forefront of promoting the less usage of cash and more so the electronic modes as they are more secure. It is therefore, irrelevant to be demanding for a deposit slip when the proof shows that the transaction was done electronically.

Hon. PF. Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, on 25^th November 202l, the ACC opened two asset forfeiture accounts denominated in Kwacha and United State Dollars in the books of BoZ, namely:

the ACC Asset Forfeiture Kwacha Holding with account number 0011 000371824; and
the ACC Asset Forfeiture US Dollar Holding with account number 0011000371831.

Madam Speaker, on 6^th December, 2021, the ACC then transferred K65,333,046 from its Asset Forfeiture Account held at Zanaco to the Kwacha Asset Forfeiture Holding account at BoZ. This transfer was done electronically, this time from Zanaco to BoZ, and for that, I display slip No.4, which is attached here.

Madam Speaker, on 7^th December, 2021, US$57,950 was also transferred from the US Dollar Asset Forfeiture Account at Zanaco to the US Dollar Asset Forfeiture Holding Account at BoZ.

Madam Speaker, on 23^rd February, 2022, a handover ceremony was held at Mulungushi International Conference Centre (MICC), where the then Acting Director General of the ACC, Mr. Ivor Mukwanka handed over a symbolic cheque to the Minister of Finance and National Planning who in turn handed over the cheque to the Minister of Education. This was just symbolic.

Madam, on 1^st March, 2022, the ACC instructed BoZ to transfer the funds from its Kwacha and Dollar Asset Forfeiture Accounts, held at BOZ, to the consolidated fund account – Control 99.

Madam Speaker, on 3^rd March, 2022, K65, 332,446.00 was transferred from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning Consolidated Kwacha Account No. 0011000370317; the main Control 99. See voucher funds as attached on slip No.5.

Madam Speaker, it should be noted that this amount is less by K600.

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: Please listen to this.

This amount was less by K600 due to bank charges. On the same day, UD$57,950 was also transferred from the ACC Asset Forfeiture US Dollar Account to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning Dollar Account No. 0011000371614, which is the main Control 99.

Madam Speaker, as I stated in my previous statement, the Ministry of Education had applied for a supplementary provision of K73,112,516.00 under a budget line called ‘University Education Provision’, which was partially funded from the total forfeited funds amounting to K66,368,812.21. This amount was a combination of the K65,332,446.00 and KI,036,366.21, which was the equivalent of US$57,950.00 after conversion into Kwacha. An additional K6, 803,703.79 was provided from the general revenues to meet the supplementary requirement for the Ministry of Education. The supplementary was presented to the National Assembly and was duly approved and the Supplementary Appropriation Bill, in respect of the approved Supplementary Estimate of Expenditure, was assented to by the President of the Republic of Zambia on 3^rd August, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the main evidence anyone can adduce on the actual transactions and movement of funds is by analysing the statements of all the involved accounts; in this case, the Assets Forfeiture Account and the Control 99 Account. Further, the electronic transfer slips were tabled to this House on 13^thJune and 14^th June, 2023.

Madam, in addition, the Assets Forfeiture Kwacha Holding Account at BoZ has had a few transactions. Meaning, the funds being discussed here were the first transactions into and out of this account.

Madam Speaker, it is my hope that this comprehensive statement outlining all the transfer transactions has provided the necessary details to finally put this matter to rest.

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: I further assure the House that the resources, having been transferred to the Ministry of Education, are now actively supporting our vulnerable students through bursaries.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points –

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I will lay the documents on the Table after the questions, just in case I need to refer to them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much hon. Acting Minister.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I should also take this opportunity to thank you for your ruling, which clearly outlined the roles of the Leader of Opposition in the House. I will effectively use that to provide the necessary guidance to the House.

Madam Speaker, it is very disappointing to listen to the Minister render a statement that is full of inconsistencies. I will make it very easy for the House. The reason we are here today is because the Auditor General did not see the K65 million in Control 99.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Shakafuswa: And the statement!

Mr Mundubile: That is why we are here.

Madam Speaker, two opportunities were given to the Minister to deliver deposit slips just to try to confirm at which point the money was first introduced. Only one deposit slip was delivered, yet the minister said he had delivered both. The Minister is now splitting hairs by saying, on the Floor of this House, that the money was given in cash and the other money was deposited. It is very unfortunate that the Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning can come –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Leader of Opposition, just ask a point of clarification, and then the Minister will be able to answer.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: I am sorry, Madam Speaker, but it is very disappointing indeed.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mundubile: If that protracted explanation was given to the Auditor General, we would not have been wasting our time on the Floor of this House. Why was the Auditor General not given the document that the Minister is tendering on the Floor of the House now? Would he had failed to see the K65 million in the account?

Madam Speaker, my question is: With all that explanation, why did the Minister of Finance and National Planning not convince the Auditor General about the existence of that money in that account?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, even me who is not an accountant is able to understand this issue. Let us open our minds and listen to the explanation. If we do that, and look at the papers, the story will very clear.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, could you ask the Leader of Opposition to relax.

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: He should not be upset.

Madam Speaker, I thank him for that question because it helps clarify matters. First of all, in the auditing process, after initial inspection, there is always a management letter that asks for certain clarification. It does not mean that that is the final finding of that audit. In this case, the Auditor General did write a management letter and the question was not what the Leader of Opposition is talking about - asking the whereabouts of the K65 million. I have here, with me, the management letter (holding the letter in his hand).

Madam Speaker, for the purposes of clarifying this matter once and for all, I shall read sections of that letter. It says:

“Management response: Failure to sweep amounts forfeited funds by Faith Musonda to Control 99, Bank of Zambia. A review of the records revealed that Faith Musonda forfeited assets valued at K65,…”

In fact, it was wrongly written; it says K6.5 million.

“… and cash in amounts of 65,300,330,46, received by the commission on 5^th November, 2021, and K1,001,138.41, received on 9^th November, 2021, and a US$57,000, through an out of court settlement or understanding. However, there was no evidence of sweeping amounts totalling K1,001,138.41, and US$57,000 to Control 99 at the Bank of Zambia.”

What is being questioned in this letter, Madam Speaker, is the US$57,000, and a figure of K1,001,000, as I have detailed. The letter is here, I shall also lay it on the Table.

Mr Mundubile interjected.

UPND Members: Why are you arguing?

Eng. Milupi: Let me explain. Madam Speaker. This questioning arose out of a misunderstanding. What I stated, in terms of the deposits, was the US$57,000, the full amount which was then converted into Kwacha amounting to the K1 million that we are talking about. So, to question K1 million on one side, and US$57, 000 on the other, you are questioning the same amounts. That is what this letter was questioning and it was a wrong question, which could have been answered. They never questioned the K65 million that was forfeited.

Mr Anakoka: Correct!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, that is the truth of the matter and this document, also, will be laid on the Table.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

We do not have much time, and the Order Paper is very loaded. So, can we ask questions quickly and precisely so that we get the answers. In that way, we can have as many hon. Members as possible ask questions.

Hon. Member for Lunte, you may proceed.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for authenticating the management letter. That letter has now been proved authentic, so no one must join Counsel Musa Mwenya in doubting its authenticity.

Madam Speaker, you directed the Hon, Minister to bring the deposit slip for K65 million. When he was bringing that bunch of documents here, he used the same expression he used today - ‘mwaloba ilyauma’, …

Mr Kafwaya: … yet the hon. Minister did not bring the deposit slip. Today, he had an opportunity to bring the deposit slip. Now, he is talking about issues he did not talk about regarding electronic transfers in his previous ministerial statement.

Mr Kambita: What is your question?

Mr Kafwaya: The question is: –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kafwaya: Credible people –

Madam Speaker: Please can we have order!

Mr Kafwaya: Sorry, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is that credible people do easy simple things. My question to the hon. Minister is: Why did he lie that he had brought the deposit slip on that day?

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Kambita interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, can you withdraw the word ‘lie’.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, why did he mislead not only this House but the nation that he had brought the deposit slip when in fact he was just − Why?

Mr Amutike: Where did you get the money?

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to rise on a serious point of order against my colleague, the hon. Member for Lunte.

Madam Speaker, in his discourse, I heard him use the word ‘lie’, which is a very unparliamentary word to use on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker: I asked him to withdraw it, and he did.

Mr Kambita: Before that, Madam Speaker. It appears that it is a question of a thief calling a normal person a thief.

Hon UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, because there is too much noise I will not be able to follow the proceedings properly. First of all, I asked the hon. Member for Lunte to withdraw the word. Did he withdraw it?

Mr Kafwaya rose.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member, why are you standing up?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, first of all you did not withdraw the word.

UPND Members: Kawalala!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, you want to spend a few days outside the House, from the way things are going, because I am not going to –

I will stop there.

Hon. Member for Lunte, have you withdrawn the word ‘lies’?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the word ‘lie’ is unparliamentary and I withdraw it.

Madam Speaker: You were told to withdraw it.

Mr Kafwaya: But, …

Mr Anakoka: Withdraw!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. member for Lunte, withdraw it.

Mr Kafwaya: I withdrew the word. I did withdraw, Madam Speaker. But that guy cannot say, …

Interruptions

Mr Kasandwe: That guy was like, ‘thief’ and he did not even cite, …

Madam Speaker: Order!

Now, hon. Member for Bangweulu, why are you debating while seated?

Mr Kasandwe interjected.

Madam Speaker: No, can we have some order, please!

We are not here to play games.

You want to get clarity over the K65 million, and an opportunity has been given for the clarification to be given. All we can do is listen so that when we are asking follow-up questions, we will be able to ask questions that help to clarify the issues. Now, if you are going to debate while seated, you are distracting people from following the proceedings.

So, first things first, hon. Member for Lunte, please withdraw ‘lying to the House’.

Can you withdraw that and apologise for using it.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the word ‘lie’ is unparliamentary. This is why I withdraw it without reservation, and apologise to the hon. Minister who misled the nation by claiming that he brought the deposit slips.

Mr Anakoka: Say sorry!

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

The issue was for you to withdraw the word. Do not over stretch. We have heard. You may resume your seat.

Mr Kafwaya remained standing.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Lunte!

I am warning you for the last time. Please.

Let us go to the next −

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, you rose on a point of order. What is the point of order?

It should not be in reference to a word that has been withdrawn.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I think I was done with my point of order. All I was trying to express –

Madam Speaker: If you are done, then thank you very much.

The Acting hon. Minister will now answer the question.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised. Hon. Leader of the Opposition, what is your point of order?

Sorry, Acting hon. Minister.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker in just trying to assert the rights of the hon. Members on the left, the hon. Member for Zambezi East called one of our hon. Members a thief.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: Yes, Madam Speaker. It would be important that the hon. Member withdraws the statement and apologises to the hon. Member who is not a thief.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, what I heard the hon, Member for Zambezi East, …

Mr Mundubile interjected.

Hon. UPND Members: Listen!

Madam Speaker: Order, Hon. Leader of the Opposition!

If you are going to make noise then let us proceed …

Acting hon. Minister, −

Mr Mundubile interjected.

Madam Speaker: … because you do not want to hear –

Acting hon. Minister, you may proceed.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, let me make it very clear that in banking parlance or language anywhere in the country or the world that an electronic slip is a deposit slip. The hon. Members who were questioning this can question any banking authority.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Eng. Milupi: Secondly, Madam Speaker, on the day –

interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members on my right please do debate while you are seated. Otherwise, you will also be spending a few days outside.

Mr Kapyanga interjected

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, secondly, on the day that I was requested to bring these deposit slips, I had with me accompanying notes of explanation. I was requested to not explain but to lay the slips on the Table. Had I been given a chance to explain then, I would have explained as I have explained today. That electronic slip was a deposit slip and it is normal practice in the banking sector that for any amounts above K100,000, they prefer electronic deposits rather than cash. That is a fact.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I had an opportunity to examine the papers that where laid on the Floor of the House. I do not know if this will help the House to understand what exactly happened.

Hon. Members, from the papers that were laid on the Floor of the House, I saw one document where the police was handing over the cash on a Friday at Faith Musonda’s house to the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). However, because it was a Friday, BoZ collected the money and put it in its premises. So, the money was kept at BoZ on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. On the Monday that followed, the police, Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) –

PF hon. Members interjected

Madam Speaker: Let me explain. This is supported by the documents that are here. The police went to BoZ to do the verification and the verification documents were referred to by the hon. Minister. After the verification of documents was done, the US Dollar notes were handed over to ACC because they were fewer. The K65 million was already with BoZ and because of its volume, it was found to not be safe for the whole amount of money to be transported physically to Zanaco. So, what was done is that they transferred the money electronically. The BoZ took the K65 million and converted it to its use and then transferred it from BoZ to Zanaco, and there is a deposit slip.

PF hon. Members interjected.

Madam Speaker: I am just explaining the deposit.

PF hon. Members Interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order! Let me explain what I saw then you can ask questions.

PF hon. Members interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are concerned.

Madam Speaker: Let me explain what I saw.

PF hon. Members: No.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: So, the transfer was from BoZ to Zanaco. Then when ZANACO was instructed to pay back the money to BoZ, there was another electronic transfer from Zanaco to BoZ. After that, the money was transferred to Control 99. Those are the documents which I saw. So, as we are asking our questions, let us refer to the documents that we have seen. I have seen the documents myself. We will save time.

The Leader of the Opposition, you have already asked a question.

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Madam Speaker: Madam Speaker, we are constrained because with the explanation that you have given, there is an issue of custody of documents and authorship. So, when Madam Speaker undertakes to read those documents, it becomes difficult for the hon. Members that is the reason why we were reacting.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, the documents were laid on the Table and when the documents are laid on the Table, they become documents for the Speaker. They were given to me, to examine. So that I can also understand what the issue are and give guidance accordingly. So, there is nothing wrong that I have done.

Mr E. Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, this money was collected in cash from Faith Musonda and at what point was it introduced into the electronic system because it was collected in cash. Therefore, at what point was this money introduced into the Bank of Zambia? The money was supposed to be deposited with BoZ and after that, an electronic transfer could be done.

Madam Speaker: Order, do not try to answer your own question just ask the question and then the hon. Minister will answer.

Mr E. Daka: So, at what point was this money introduced into the electronic system for it to be transferred into the other account.

Madam Speaker: I have added ten minutes.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I have already stated that after these boxes in which this money was loaded was delivered to BoZ, the keys were kept by the police and at a later date, which I have already given, the police went back to have the money counted. After it was authenticated, the money was deposited in the Bank of Zambia Suspense Account on the 5^th of November, 2021, and I have a deposit slip which I already explained. So, that is when the money was introduced into BoZ.

Madam Speaker, that is why, when it was necessary, the ACC asked for the money to be transferred into its Zanaco Forfeiture Account rather than getting the same cash. They used an electronic transfer, whose process I have described. The ACC Forfeiture Account at Zanaco was credited with this K65 million.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that it is irrelevant for us and the Zambians to demand for these deposit slips. I think you heard that very clearly. However, in his statement, he went further to indicate the numbers of the deposit slips; I think up to five slips.

Madam Speaker, whether these transactions were done electronically, they can still be generated into bank slip papers. However, the people of Masaiti are very worried and are asking whether the bank manager can be subpoenaed by you, Madam Speaker, to come and verify and authenticate the deposit slips so that this matter can be put to rest and so that the people of Zambia may know that indeed deposit slip numbers one to five are true documents of the said bank.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Masaiti, you know that this is not the first time that this matter is coming before this hon. House. Before a decision was made to ask the hon. Minister to come to day to this House to give an explanation, I also used my discretion to summon the people at Bank of Zambia (BoZ) to come and explain. Hon. Member for Masaiti, I do not know if you took the opportunity to look at the documents that were laid on the Table. Have you had the opportunity?

Mr Katambo: No!

Madam Speaker: I think it is better for hon. Members to have a look at the documentation. If we are not clear, let us ask for clarification with the documents because it is much easier to understand. Otherwise, we will keep on going in circles.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity and we appreciate the necessary support we are rendering to clarify this matter.

Madam Speaker, I will draw the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning. I think now we can understand why the substantive hon. Minister, who was here yesterday –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us just ask questions …

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am drawing the attention of the …

Madam Speaker: Order!

Just for the information of the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, to my knowledge, I have received a letter from the Secretary to the Cabinet that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is in the President’s delegation going to France to deal with the issues of debt restructuring and therefore, we have an Acting hon. Minister. So, some of things are not necessary to be raised. Let us bring out matters that will help us to resolve this paradox about the K65 million. Did you complete asking your question?

Mr Kampyongo: No, Madam Speaker, I did not.

Madam Speaker: You can proceed.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, you will remember that I cited the Constitution provisions regarding the drawing of funds from the consolidated fund which then made you make a ruling and made the hon. Minister to come here to deliver this statement. However, I will draw his attention to a Supplementary Appropriation Act No. 7 of 2022 which came to this august House, approved and assented to on 3^rd August, 2022, to a tune of K22, 357,683, 085.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education had four expenditure lines to which we appropriated the Supplementary support namely:

Early childhood Education K22,000,000

Secondary Education K280,662,009

University Education K73,172,516

Management and Support Services K1,000,000

Madam Speaker, it is a procedural requirement that when the hon. Minister is tabling a Supplementary Expenditure, he also provides resources of revenue to support the Supplementary Expenditure he is tabling on the Floor. As we sit, we have never had any revenue risk source speaking to the forfeiture of proceeds of crime which is speaking to the K65 million. I want to get it from the hon. Minister: The dummy check that was demonstrated to the whole nation was K65 million. Is he saying that the budget line ‘University Education’, which had K73 million, was given the K73 million and the K65 million as an addition to the amount that came here and was appropriated based on the revenue that the hon. Minister was going to generate from the other sources which did not speak to the proceeds of crime? I want that clarification, Madam Speaker, to help resolve this matter because we have the Supplementary Appropriation which came to this august House.

Eng. Milupi: Madam, I thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu who is also the Opposition Whip.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: First of all, to clarify when he made reference to the substantive hon. Minister, let me state that we are one Cabinet and that includes all Cabinet members. The former hon. Minister who is now Whip was also finding himself in similar situations where he was acting or other hon. Ministers who are out and the reason for that was that they were one Cabinet. The information I give here is as good as any information that would have been given by any other hon. Minister including the substantive hon. Minister.

Madam, with reference to his substantive question on the Supplementary Budget, I have explained that the application by the hon. Minister of Education for this budget line was K73,172,516. To make up this amount of money, the K66 million which was made up of the K6 million plus K1 million was converted from the US$57 plus an extra over K6 million to make up that amount is what was used.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member talks about the Supplementary Budget and claims that there was no source of revenue for that Supplementary Budgetary. The Whip is questioning how that Supplementary Budget was passed.

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: That Supplementary Budget was passed by this House.

Madam Speaker: Order!

No! Sorry, maybe, I can guide. He is asking the source of the funding for the Supplementary Budget which is he says was not disclosed.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Now, I do not know what procedures we are using. Let the hon. Minister complete his answer. Sorry.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Control 99 Account is where all revenues of the Government are kept; whether you pay and over speeding fine, it goes into that account. So, it is from that account that expenditures are made including the Supplementary Budget. You cannot then go in and ask whether what you were fined for two days ago was also stipulated in the Supplementary Budget? That is not how Government works,

Madam Speaker, I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kafwaya rose in his seat.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, please resume your seat. Can we make some progress? Let us make progress now.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to ask a follow-up question to the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and Nation Planning.

Madam Speaker, he discussion on the Floor –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we have only almost fifty seconds left for this segment, but you keep on raising points of order. Let us conclude. I want to close this because we have other work on the order paper to do. Please, just bear with me. Allow the hon. Member for Bweengwa to ask his point of clarification.

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I think the discussion of the K65 million on the Floor of this House today is a clear indication or proof of plunder by the previous regime.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Ba kabwalala!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, just ask a point of clarification. If there is none then, let us leave this matter. Let people go and do their –

Mr Michelo: I thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of clarification?

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for the opportunity again.

Madam Speaker, I think that, in this House, we are very much interested in knowing about the deposit. We now know that the money went to the Ministry of Education. I just want to find out from the hon. Minister why it happened that when that money was discovered at Faith Musonda’s House, a certain politician rushed there to negotiate and plead that they not be tried in the courts of law. Is the hon. Minister in a position to tell us the name of the boyfriend who provided the money to the person and the source of the money?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I will not make a comment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, thank you. They say, if one has a wound and they want that wound to heal, you stop scratching it. This matter was going off quietly, but certain people want to keep bringing it up. As a result, …

Hon. Government Members: The deposit! The Source!

Eng. Milupi: …the deposit slips have been explained, but there is also need to go to the source; where did the money come from?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, we have asked the investigative officers to look into this matter to even ascertain which banks provided the bundles of money. When the money was recovered, the bundles indicated which banks the money came. As a result of that, all the banks that had money coming from them as part of this amount of money will be called to account; to come and state exactly where that money come from. I think this is a much more valid question for that who want to look up the resources of this country rather than chasing after the wind in trying to split between an electronic slip and a hard cash slip.

Madam Speaker, we, as the Government, take this matter very seriously, and as a result of questions that have been raised, this matter will be followed to its logical conclusion so that we know where the money came from. I was informed that the money that was collected from the house of Ms Faith Musonda was equivalent to what BoZ sends out to places like the Western Province and parts of the Southern Province. The trucks that carried the money showed how colossal the amount was.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Unfortunately, we cannot continue because we have exhausted the time allocated to the segment. However, by way of guidance, the papers have been laid on the Table of the House and hon. Members have access to those papers. Let us please have a look at those papers, and if you have any questions, we can go to the respective banks or whatever places we want to go and gather our independent information.

May the Acting Hon. Minister lay the papers on the Table of the House.

Eng. Milupi laid the papers on the Table.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Let us make progress. We going to consider Questions for Oral Answer and in view of the time that we have spent on this matter, for the questions that relate to the constituency only, we will restrict ourselves to the constituency. For the questions that are more open-ended, I will allow more people to ask questions, especially question No. 297.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Mr. Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity given to the people of Katombola, although we are still in shock, as we ask this question that such huge sums of money could end up in people’s pockets when we are asking for water.

CRITICAL SHORTAGE OF WATER IN SOME AREAS IN KATOMBOLA PARLIAMENTARY

296. Mr. Andeleki: asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

(a) whether the Government is aware that the following areas in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency have a critical shortage of water:

(i) Nyawa;

(ii) Ngwezi;

(iii) Bombwe;

(iv) Kauwe;

(v) Nguba;

(vi) Sikaunzwe;

(vii) Kanchele; and

(viii) Moomba;

(b) if so, what measures are being taken to provide clean water for the residents and their domestic animals; and

(c) what the cost of providing clean water is.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha): Madam Speaker, yes, the Government is aware of the critical shortage of water in the following areas of Katombola Parliamentary Constituency:

(a) Nyawa;

(b) Ngwezi;

(d) Kauwe;

(e) Nguba;

(f) Sikaunzwe;

(g) Kanchele; and

(h) Moomba.

Madam Speaker, the Government has planned to drill and equip fifteen new boreholes in Katombola Constituency. Further, the Government, with support from the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), has also planned to drill and equip eighty new boreholes with hand bumps, rehabilitate forty non-functional boreholes and construct two piped water schemes in Katombola Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the cost of providing clean water to Katombola Constituency will be determined at the point of procurement.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for the elaborate statement. When exactly should the people of Katombola expect water from the boreholes hon. Minister mentioned?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Andeleki for that follow-up question. The question is: When? Let me not only inform the hon. Member of Parliament and the good people of Katombola but also all hon. Members of Parliament that they may recall that last year, I did issue a Ministerial Statement on the procurement of various contracts to do with the drilling of boreholes. I must say that the said contract is for one year, which goes on towards October/ November this year and as I speak, various contractors are in the various provinces to undertake these works. I have also instructed my officers to provide us with work schedules for these contractors, which I will be able to provide to various hon. Members of Parliament as per province, so that they should know which contractor is in their area and at what point. So, I will be able to provide the detailed schedules in due course.

Madam Speaker, I thank you

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Katombola, are you satisfied?

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, what does the hon. Minister mean when he says ‘in due course’? The people of Katombola have no water.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, within the next ten days, I will have circulated the schedules. However, let me just emphasise that the contractors are already on the ground in various constituencies. That is basically supplementary information to equip the hon. Members of Parliament so that they are able to follow the approximate time that the contractors are going to be in their various constituencies. So that information will be provided within the next ten days.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Since information will be provided, the supplementary questions relating to other constituencies can be raised at that point.

AVAILABILITY OF ANY MINERALS IN THE NORTHERN PROVINCE AND MUCHINGA PROVINCE

297. Mr Kapyanga (Mpika) (on behalf of Mr Mukosa (Chinsali)) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

whether there are any minerals in the following provinces:

Muchinga; and
Northern;

if so, what the minerals are; and

what measures are being taken to promote mining in the two provinces.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe): Madam Speaker, in response to question No. 132 –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The question is No. 297, hon. Minister.

Mr Kabuswe: Yes, Madam Speaker. Sorry, it was actually corrected on my question paper.

Madam Speaker, yes, there are mineral occurrences in both Muchinga and Northern Provinces.

Madam Speaker, in Muchinga Province, the mineral occurrences include gold, gypsum, coal, rare earth elements, manganese, garnets, talc, graphite and industrial minerals. The list is not exhaustive as other minerals are being discovered.

Madan Speaker, in the Northern Province, the mineral occurrences include gold, copper, manganese, salt, clay and industrial minerals.

Madam Speaker, the measures being taken to promote mining in the two provinces include the following:

issuance of both exploration and mining licences;
formalisation of mining activities through formation and licensing of co-operatives;
provision of technical advisory services particularly to the artisanal and small scale miners; and
capacity building of the artisanal and small scale miners sub-sector through training, awareness raising on various aspects of mining and provision of small grants.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, for us in these provinces, we want the minerals in these areas to help us in the development of our provinces. I am aware that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has given exploration licences to some companies in Chikwanda and Nabwalya Chiombo without even the consent of the chiefs as per law established and by practice. Who facilitated that illegality?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. I may not go into the details of a specific mining licence because we give various licences. All I can say is that exploration is not what requires consent, but the mining licence. Exploration is a search. You are looking and you have not yet found the minerals. When you find, you go back to the ministry and apply for a mining licence and that requires the consent from the chief.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, in the absence of formal artisanal activities happening in the mentioned provinces, what mode is the Government considering to start mining the mentioned minerals in the two provinces, especially that Zambia is in dire need of conversion of those resources into dollars, so that we may not be borrowing?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. You can only benefit from your minerals if you are structured properly and this is what the New Dawn Government is doing. We are striving to structure the sector and skill it to benefit the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, I am interested to find out from the hon. Minister as regards the newly discovered gold in Mpika District. The hon. Minister has time and again said that the Government is doing things methodically, unlike in the past. I want to find out how the Government is actually going to help Zambians, without favouring people on political lines, to get artisanal and small scale mining licences in order to exploit the resources to the benefit of the people of Mpika, in particular, and Zambia as a whole.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, one thing I would like to clarify is that we are not issuing licences based on political inclination or affiliation. We are giving licences to Zambians who apply. If they qualify, licences are given.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that even amongst ourselves as hon. Members of Parliament, people are applying for licences. They are Zambians and they qualify. We are not discriminating according to what political party one belongs to.

Madam Speaker, as regards the recent discovery of gold in Mpika and every other area, it is because of the gaps that were created. There was the lack of exploration. Zambia was not exploring. So we have had villagers digging ifyumbu, or sweet potatoes, and then as they are doing that, they discover gold. Why is this so? It is because we did not map the country and were not exploring. We just sat and entertained confusion. Now we are putting systems in place. This country is going into full throttle mapping. We are zoning it and we will explore so that we know the extent of mineralisation. Then we will know how to make sure that the minerals benefit our people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has confirmed to the august House and the nation that different minerals have been discovered in the Northern Province and Muchinga Province.

Madam Speaker, a company called Zambia Gold Company was created some three or four years ago to buy off all the gold that is produced to create reserves for our country. Is the hon. Minister able to confirm to this august House if the gold that has been discovered will be bought by the Zambia Gold Company.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and I am glad he asked this question. What we are doing as the Government is to create gold bucketing centres. This gold will be bought by the Government and other private sector members. We are going to create an aggregator. One of the considerations we are making is Zambia Gold itself. We have not done away with Zambia Gold. It may be or it may not be the gold aggregator but we will form buying centres and a gold aggregator that will aggregate the gold for it to be taken to either Bank of Zambia (BoZ) or any other entity. So, we will inform the nation on the final decision around aggregation of gold.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Madam Speaker, in Muchinga Province, particularly Isoka Constituency. There is a mine called Kombwa Mine in Luangwa Ward. What is Government doing about this mine?

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, it is very difficult for me to answer as to what Government is doing about a particular company, unless the hon. Member can go into the specifics of really what she means by what Government is doing about a particular company. Have they abrogated the license requirements or what? I do not know how to answer it because it is too broad. Can I be guided?

Madam Speaker: I think that is the correct position.

Hon Member for Isoka, if you have any specific issues, you can address them with the hon. Minister. The question is too general. You can put in a question, if you want.

I will call upon the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu and that will be the last question.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the desire of the hon. Minister to structure the operations. As I speak now, there is an influx of people even coming from outside the country to take advantage of this discovered natural resource, which is the only capital that people can benefit from. When should we expect the hon. Minister to call for a serious stakeholder’s engagement? As a Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu, in an area that is between Mpika and Shiwang’andu, we are grappling with how to manage people’s anxieties with this influx. So, when can we have a stakeholders meeting which may need to have the hon. Ministers colleagues from the Ministry of Small Medium Enterprises Development, who is responsible for cooperatives, the traditional leaders and other stakeholders in the area so that we quickly move in before it is too late.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu for that very good question. As you may be aware, His Royal Highness, Chief Nkula, is chairing a meeting of Their Royal Highnesses. They have actually sent me minutes to me where they sat and discussed on how to proceed. In parallel, our ministry has set up a team that went and visited the site. What we want to do now is to do an all-inclusive arrangement because we have to form co-operatives around that area. I just sharing with the hon. Minister for Muchinga Province that as it stands now, we need the police and the army to move in and cordon the area so that we can stop the illegalities that are happening as we structure something. We do not want to do something in a hurry and end up just benefiting people who are not supposed to benefit from that. So, I assure the hon. Member that the meeting is coming in earnest. The team is already in place and funding has already been found. I am sure they are just planning on one or two things before they move and call up that meeting.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will take the last question from the hon. Member for Mpika because he asked the substantive question.

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, let me not waste much of the time. Hon. Kampyongo has asked the question I wanted to ask.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for that.

Let us make progress.

COMPLETION OF THE REHABILITATION OF THE LUWINGU/NSOMBO/CHABA ROAD

298. Mr Fube (Chilubi) (on behalf of Mr. Chewe (Lubansenshi)) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

when the rehabilitation of the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road will be completed;
whether the Government has any plans to tar the road;
if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
what the cost of the project is.

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road will be completed when funds are secured and the new contractor procured.

Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to upgrade to bituminous standard the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road.

Madam Speaker, the plans to upgrade to bituminous standard the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road will be considered for implementation in the future work plans, subject to availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the cost of upgrading to bituminous standard of the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road will only be known once the designs have been done and the contractor procured.

I thank you. Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the road in question services Lubansenshi as well as Chilubi because Chaba is in Chilubi. From the point that was indicated, it is about a stretch of 126 km. I think some works were started to have an all-weather compacted road whose contract as terminated. The hon. Minister has indicated that the Government will continue to attend to the rehabilitation of the road when funds are available. However, there is a K250 million under the budget for infrastructure, targeting 600 km of roads. Can we not consider rehabilitating the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road using what has been budgeted for this year?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the follow-up question. First of all, let me inform you that the hon. Member for Chilubi, Hon. Mulenga Fube and I, have been in constant discussions regarding this very road because it touches him as he said; it goes to Chaba, which is in Chilubi Constituency. However, let me provide more information.

Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road to gravel standard was part of the National Feeder Roads Phase II Programme, which was cleared for termination on 19^th October, 2022, due to funding challenges.

Madam, the National Feeder Roads Phase II Project was awarded to Messrs. China Geo-Engineering Corporation (CGC) at a contract sum of US$48,381,013.00.

Madam Speaker, the project scope covered a total of 486 km out of which 120 km was for Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba Road. As mentioned above, these are the details of all roads under this project, covering the full 486 Km.

Madam Speaker, suffice to say that the contractor completed, as the hon. Member for Chilubi is saying, the gravelling of the fifty kilometres out of the 120 kilometres, leaving a balance of seventy kilometres at a time the project was terminated. The contractor was paid was paid a sum of US$477,000. However, this is what is happening at the moment because that is what the people of Luwingu and Chilubi, along this road, want to know. The three councils; that is Luwingu District Council, Lupososhi District Council and Chilubi District Council are collaborating to carry out holding maintenance works by providing fuel and wages to China Geo-Engineering Corporation (CGC); that is the contractor. The contractor has offered to provide equipment and human resource for this exercise. The scope of work is spot improvement with cost of fuel and wages amounting to K3.6 million.

This, I must add, Madam Speaker, is just an initiative as we wait for a long-term intervention which will happen when funds, as I have said, are secured.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I need to confirm that indeed we have been in talks with the hon. Minister and we took up that initiative that he has just pointed out. However, the current scope of works exposes the road to harsh weather conditions like in the rainy season when we were almost cut off. That is why the hon. Minster came in. So far, the scope of work that has been done on that road is just back filling and grading. I think it has reached almost what is called Ndela Ward, near Chaba.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister in answering the question on bituminous standard left the Chilubi/Nsombo/Chaba Road open without affiliating a time frame due to resources, which is understandably so, but let me remind the hon. Minister that the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) –

Madam Speaker: What is your supplementary question, hon. Member?

Mr Fube: Yes. The supplementary question, Madam Speaker is that: Currently in terms so of bituminous standard roads in the Northern Province, it is just the people of Kaputa and Chilubi who have not seen how a tarred road looks like. I do not know when the Government is considering upgrading roads in those two districts to bituminous standard roads, instead of getting answers like ‘We do know’ or ‘There is no time frame attached’.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his concern for his constituency. In fact, as for Kaputa where I have been, I confirm the need for the road to be upgraded to bituminous standard. Again, without subtracting from the needs of the people of Chilubi and kaputa, I must add that, in terms of the whole country, the number of roads that require upgrading to bituminous standard is very large.

Madam Speaker, that why, first of all, we are taking control of the contracting in the road sector and making sure that new contracts given are backed by budget so that as contractors finish their work and completion certificates are certified, they can be paid.

Madam Speaker, the backlog that we are dealing with is colossal but we are beginning to work on it. One of the things for which we seek the support of this House is the debt resolution mechanism for which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the President are going away to see if they can have those matters resolved. When that matter is resolved, we will then be a position to sit down and plan for when and which specific roads are going to be worked on. Until such time, with the scarcity of resources and with the inability to borrow, it will be very difficult to give specific timeframes for specific roads. However, our desire is that our people in this country, our citizens wherever they are, are services appropriately with hard surfaced roads; whether it is gravel roads or bituminous roads.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo indicated to ask a question.

Madam Speaker: We need to make progress. Sincere apologies, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

COMMENCEMENT OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF SOME MINI-HOSPITALS IN

LUPOSOSHI CONSTITUENCY

299. Mr. Chibombwe (Bahati) on behalf of (Mr Emmanuel Musonda) (Lupososhi)) asked the Minister of Health:

when the construction of the following mini hospitals in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency will commence:

Nsombo; and
Chimbwi;

what has caused the delay in commencing the project; and
what the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, the construction of the mini-hospitals at Nsombo and Chimbwi in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency will not commence because the distribution list for the construction of the 115 mini-hospitals countrywide was revised in order to ensure equity in provision of health services in the country. The two mini-hospitals where redistributed to other areas in the country that had none.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that Lupososhi District was allocated two other mini-hospitals under the same project at Katuta and Chungu. The construction of these two mini-hospitals has been completed and the two mini-hospitals are functional.

Madam Speaker, as earlier stated, construction of the two mini-hospitals at Nsombo and Chimbwi will not commence. Therefore, part (b) and (c) of the question fall off.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, some hon. Ministers, during the campaign for Katidwe Local Government By-election, promised the people of Nsombo and Chimbwi that the two mini-hospitals would be completed this year and His Excellency the President, when he held a thanksgiving rally at Kalaba Ground, attested to this matter. So, the people are asking when the Government is going to fulfil a campaign promise it made during the Local Government By-election in Katidwe Ward. Hon. Elvis Nkandu stood on that platform and made the promise to the people of Lupososhi.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, I do not know whom you are directing your question at. You are directing the question to hon. Minister of Health.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I want the hon. Members of Parliament to help me in the future even when they ask questions. They will recall what I have told them; that we have redesigned everything. Very shortly, I think, once the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is back, I will be able to issue a ministerial statement guiding hon. Members on what we are exactly doing with regard to new constructions because we had to re-negotiate. We are going into different phase with different things so that hon. Members do not ask questions of the past but about the present happenings. Now, this is a question about what is happening presently and I will be able to respond accordingly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Bahati, any question? Are you satisfied?

Mr Chibombwe: No, Madam Speaker, there was a Presidential directive that hospitals will be built this year. So, I do not know why the hon. Minister has decided to disobey the directive of the President.

Mrs Masebo: I know there are many of you that want my job.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: That was on a lighter note.

Madam Speaker, that is why I have said that for the current issues, I will come back to give a comprehensive statement once the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is back. In short, it is a yes, but let me come back to the House so that I do not make a promissory note. Please take note, a Presidential policy direction is not questioned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: So, there is still hope there, hon. Member for Bahati. Just hold your fire.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

Mr. Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): I beg to move that this House do adopt –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended at 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I had just began moving the motion.

I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology on the Free Education Policy in Zambia: Opportunities and Challenges, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Monday, 19^th June, 2023.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Standing Orders No. 197(c) and 198 of the National Assembly of Zambia, Standing Orders of 2021, and the Committee considered the topical issue entitled: The Free Education Policy in Zambia: Opportunities and Challenges.

Madam Speaker, I have no doubt that hon. Members have taken time to read the Committee’s report and therefore, I will restrict my comments to key findings of the Committee.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we have silence, please. We are listening to the report. Can we have silence in the House?

Hon. Member for Itezhi-tezhi, you may continue.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, in order to improve access to education, the Government of the Republic of Zambia introduced free education from early childhood to secondary school in all the Government schools in the country. The policy has given hope to several children who may have dropped out of school for various reasons, including the lack of resources to pay school fees. It is gratifying to note that many children now are back in the school system.

Madam Speaker, the Free Education Policy has not only led to an increase in enrolments, but also increased disposable incomes for most of the households. You may wish to note that the little money raised by these households which would normally be used to pay school fees is now being channelled to other activities such as improving nutrition at household level. Further, the influx of learners has increased the demand for desks. This has presented business opportunities for households that are able to participate in the maintenance and production of school desks. This has increased income at household level, thereby contributing to the reduction of income poverty.

Madam Speaker, despite the benefits of the implementation of the Free Education Policy, there are some challenges that have arisen in the process. One of the notable challenges has been the limited infrastructure to accommodate the increase in the number of learners. As witnessed during our tours, we found most of the learners sitting on the Floor. In light of this, the Committee recommends that the Government should prioritise building more classrooms to accommodate the learners who have gone back to school.

Madam Speaker, another challenge arising from the implementation of the Free Education Policy is the high pupil to teacher ratio.

Madam Speaker, I commend the Government for having recruited 30, 496 teachers. This is commendable and will go a long way in mitigating the current deficit of 85,000 teachers in the country. However, there is still an urgent need to recruit more teachers as the number of teachers in schools is still very low compared to the number of learners. This is making it very difficult for the teachers to concentrate on their work because they are overwhelmed. The Committee is concerned that if the situation does not improve, teachers may feel demotivated and they will begin to put in less effort in their work. It was disheartening to hear complaints from teachers that they were not paid double class and rural hardship allowances.

Madam Speaker, the teachers deserve the allowances especially with the amount of work they are doing now with the introduction of free education policy.

Madam Speaker, the Committee recommends that as a matter of urgency, more teachers should be recruited to mitigate the challenge of high pupil to teacher ratio. The Government should ensure that teachers are motivated by providing them with conducive accommodation, pay them the applicable allowances such as rural hardship allowance and improve their conditions of service generally. Further, the Committee recommends that the Government should learn from Kenya by implementing the continuous recruitment of teachers to ensure that those that retire are immediately replaced.

Madam Speaker, let me also touch on the importance of providing for a legal framework for the Free Education Policy. The introduction of the Free Education Policy from early childhood to secondary school is a very important move in the quest to ensure that every child has access to education. However, as important as it is, this policy is not backed by any legislation. In light of this, your Committee strongly urges the Government to issue a statutory instrument that will provide a legal backing for the Free Education Policy in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, in order to appreciate the best practices in the implementation of the Free Education Policy, your Committee undertook a benchmarking tour to Kenya where it learnt that the Constitution as well as other pieces of legislation clearly provide for free and compulsory education from early childhood to secondary school.

Further, the Basic Education Act of Kenya provides that it is an offence for parents and guardians to fail to make education available for their children.

In light of this, your Committee strongly urges the Government to issue a statutory instrument that will not only provide free education but also ensure that education is compulsory and any wilful neglect to put a child in school is criminalised.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also strongly urges the Government to take concrete steps in addressing various challenges that have arisen as a result of the implementation of the Free Education Policy.

Madam Speaker,let me conclude by thanking all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee.

Lastly, let me thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout its deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms S. Mwamba: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I rise to second the Motion, which has been ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee, Hon. Twaambo Mutinta.

Madam Speaker, as I second this Motion, please allow me to highlight a few issues arising from the study of your Committee that may not have been covered in the statement by the mover.

Madam Speaker, it was surprising to learn that during the tour many parents were not aware of other benefits arising from the implementation of free education.

Madam Speaker, it was surprising to learn during the tour that many members of the community did not fully understand the Free Education Policy, which is being implemented by the Government. It was regrettably observed that despite the introduction of the Free Education Policy, only a few parents take their children to special education units and to early learning centres.

Madam Speaker, in order to bridge the information gap, it is important for the Government, through key offices such as the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS), to conduct extensive sensitisation awareness programmes on the implementation of the Free Education Policy. This should be done by using various strategies including conducting physical meetings, sponsoring radio programmes, among others, to explain the different roles by different stakeholders such as Parent Teachers Associations (PTAs) and community members in the whole process of policy implementation. For many parents, once they hear free education, they fold their arms and say, the Government shall do everything. Many have left everything on the Government shoulders.

Madam Speaker, in this vein, your Committee appreciates the good work being undertaken by various co-operating partners in supporting the Government’s efforts in the promotion of education among learners. However, it was observed that there is seemingly poor collaboration between the Government and cooperating partners with regard to the implementation of the Free Education Policy.

As the Chairperson pointed out, Madam Speaker, some challenges have arisen as a result of the implementation of the Free Education Policy in Zambia, which should not be left to the Government alone, as I mentioned earlier. Some of these challengers include limited classroom space, poor water and sanitation, and insufficient teaching and learning materials. Most of these are what ae affecting the rural areas.

Madam Speaker, parents still have a role to play through the PTA. If you may recall, in the past, you would actually find that communities would help to build classrooms, but right now, everybody has their arms folded, saying the Government will do it. It is our children that need to learn in these classrooms; the Government can only do so much. So, that cooperation is needed.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is therefore of the view that the Government and co-operating partners including the business community, Churches and other religious groups and non-governmental Organisations (NGOs) should find a way to amicably work together in supporting efforts to provide free education. This is important because it will help in finding solutions to the challenges that have arisen from the implementation of the policy including bridging the infrastructure gap and a way of avoiding duplication of efforts in some areas, especially rural areas.

Madam Speaker, one of the issues brought to the fore during your Committee’s local tours is that some primary schools had been upgraded to secondary school status, but that was by name only as they remained without being granted the status for a Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system for a normal secondary school. Admittedly, this has negatively impacted on the pay of the teachers falling under such schools.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government should, as a matter of urgency, enforce the PMIC system for the upgraded schools to enhance the Free Education Policy, as it will encourage teachers especially Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) teachers to be deployed in such schools.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me join the Chairperson in thanking you for affording us an opportunity to serve on this very important Committee and indeed the Office of the Clerk for the services rendered during the deliberations of your Committee.

Madam, education for all is an equaliser and for that, I strongly second the Motion on the Floor of the House and urge this august House to adopt the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving the people of Chilubi, through me, an opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the report. I take this opportunity to thank the mover of the Motion as we as the seconder.

Madam Speaker, my starting point is the legal framework. The Education Act, No.23 of 2011, the recently passed Children’s Code Act, No.12 of 2022 and the Persons with Disabilities Act, No. 6 of 2012, seem to be the anchor that distantly mentions the need to attain free education. This means that we do not have specific legislation of pointing to the effect that we should house free education in our legislative structure.

Madam Speaker, the Education Act that I have referred to, among other things, mainly creates a three-tier education system; early childhood education, basic education and the higher education system. When you go to the Child Code Act, its preoccupation is the holistic approach to education, which talks about the issue of skills. I guess that this year, it was supposed to stray to psychomotor skills. So, it is taking more of a transformational approach to free education.

Madam Speaker, further, the Persons with Disabilities Act brings in confusion by stating that people with disabilities can access an inclusive quality and free primary, secondary and higher education. The mismatch is that the principal aspect of the Education Act talks about starting from early childhood education. The Persons with Disabilities Act starts from primary school, and I think that is a mismatch that needs to be attended to for us to flow well.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chilubi have three factors or rates to consider when addressing the issue of free education. Free education cannot be addressed in a vacuum. It should be addressed in terms of enrolment rates, retention rates, and progression rates; the three-tier system. At the moment, the free education agreement, or rather the atmosphere, in the country is only taking care of enrolment rates. We would admit to that effect that the enrolment rates have swelled up, which is resulting in other challenges that the mover of the Motion did point to when he talked about the pupil-desk ratio, teacher-pupil ratio, laboratory-pupil ratio, book-pupil ratio and many other factors that have to be accommodated.

Mr Nkandu: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, we will be entertaining a dream not a reality if we do not take on board what is prescribed in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), which among other things talks about human capital development. I think education, just as the seconder of the Motion said, is an equaliser, and it is one of the pillars that lays the foundation. In this case, education is a facilitator of that human development talked about in 8NDP.

Madam Speaker, the recommendations by your Committee go as far as talking about criminalisation the staying away of children from school. Of course, the structure would be very difficult. Criminalising the staying away of children who are of school going age in the sense that if they stay away and are not in the school environment. The proposal by the Committee is that this policy should come through a statutory instrument. The people of Chilubi, through me, would like to submit that this would still be weak because even the subsidiary laws that are there, I think, in some ways are sufficient enough to carry the weight. However, they have failed to really score the desired goals. The only privilege, space, and route that we can take is accommodating these laws in the Bill of Rights, which, currently, is in disarray because it mainly accommodates political and civil rights instead of expanding to social and economic rights.

Madam Speaker, let me speak on the policy environment, at the moment. If you look at what we have at hand is the 1996 National Education Policy. I am sure all of us remember that this education policy, whenever it comes to mind, is associated with Professor Michael J Kelly. He was a Jesuit priest, and with his team, championed the policy, of course on behalf of the Government as a consultant. However, if you go into the nitty gritty of that policy that has been brought forward you find that it is also not matching with the current environment, especially the component of free education, which is hanging in suspense, and not supported by legal framework.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, other policies that are supposed to support the National Education Policy are supposed to be in tune with policies that go hand in hand with the social safety net. The reason the people of Chilubi are submitting in that way is that if education is, indeed, an equaliser, it means that it should be taken as an economic tool. If it is an economic tool, it also means that even some of the skills and many other factors that are being run under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services are supposed to be supported by a particular policy framework that feeds into and caters for different categories of people.

Madam Speaker, when we are talking about education we should not just take the academic route. I know that the debate has been there when we have been talking about both the vocational as well as the academic route. So, as the people of Chilubi in supporting this report submit that as we route towards a legislation process that should facilitate an education environment, which is supported to be called comfortably free, we need to have social safety nets in mind.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, the people of Chilubi support this report and adopt the challenges as stipulated.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity given to me on behalf of the people of Sikongo to add a voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. I thank the chairperson of the Committee for the able manner in which he has presented the report. As I start, let me say that the Free Education Policy is one of the flagship policies of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Administration. This is a policy that was promised during the campaigns and I am happy today to say that it has come to fruition. Its implementation is what we are talking about today. Despite the fact that at that moment, some people objected or thought the policy was not going to become a reality. I think this is a clear demonstration that what we say is not only administrative; we mean business and it comes to pass.

Free education, indeed, Madam Speaker, is the best equaliser. I am happy to mention that in Sikongo the number of pupils that are going to school has significantly increased because of the free education policy where the Government decided to remove the pressure from parents and guardians of paying for pupils, and it took up that responsibility. So, this is a very good policy that the Government brought on board. I know that in the years that are coming, we are going to see many pupils become doctors, teachers, and so on, in Sikongo, which is something good.

Madam Speaker, the education sector, I would say, is one of those sectors that has been neglected in the past. This is because when you look at the challenges that are coming out of the report they point to the fact that this sector was highly neglected in the past. However, thanks to the New Dawn Administration, much as we are talking about challenges, the policy was not thought about in a vacuum. The New Dawn Administration was aware of the challenges that would come with the policy. As a result, it also prepared for the solutions to the problems that would come because of the Free Education Policy. People are talking about overcrowding in schools and trying to turn that around into a negative, which is not true. Schools may be overcrowded but pupils are better off being in school overcrowded than being at home and learning nothing.

Mr Nkandu: Quality!

At the same time, Madam Speaker, we cannot talk about free education in this country without talking about the Constituency Development Funds (CDF). This is why I am talking about the fact that the new Government knew exactly what it was doing, where it was, where it is, and where it is going. So, we know that the many challenges that we have such as overcrowding in schools, high teacher-pupil ratio, and the shortage of desks are just for a short time because the answer lies in the CDF. Currently, a number of constituencies and schools in this country are already, as you see on the news every day, procuring desks in their thousands. Schools are being constructed, classroom blocks and staff houses. All these point to the fact that the free education policy was not an accident but something that was fully planned for by this administration.

Madam Speaker, I would like a situation where every person or leader, parliamentarians included, support this policy because it is a game changer. This is a policy that will make this country develop. When you talk about education being an equaliser, it means that it gives each and every child an opportunity to become whoever they want to become in life. So, let us not politicise this but support this good intention, which I know has been made possible by the New Dawn Administration.

Madam Speaker, the other aspect that I want to speak to is the issue of where the money came from to implement this policy. We are all alive to the fact that we have a huge debt that is squeezing us so much. However, despite the squeezing by the debt, the New Dawn Administration is still able to come up with these flagship policies. In answering the question of where the money is coming from, it is coming from the prudence management of resources.

Mr Kambita: Even squandered K65 million.

Mr Simushi: The money is coming from prudent management of resources.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let us avoid debating while seated. I am sure we have only one debater on the Floor.

Laughter

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, the resources are coming from prudence management of the resources. Like we heard today, we had money that was recovered from some people. I do not know where they got the money but the New Dawn Administration managed to channel those resources to where they are best needed and that is education. The university students got that money in form of student allowances, which is a very good thing that has happened.

Madam Speaker, I will say this again; let us support this administration because it means well for every Zambian and all of us. So, yes, the challenges are there but let us not try to put the challenges ahead of the main objective of the policy. Let us be part and parcel of the solution to the problem that has come up with the good policy of free education.

Madam Speaker, in ending my debate, let me mention that, yes, there are so many challenges that are there but I think the answer lies in us making sure that we put more money into the education sector. This is because the education policy has brought about many issues that need to be addressed through budgetary allocation. So, my request is: When the 2024 Budget is brought on the Floor of this House, coupled with funds from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we expect to see more money going into the education sector so that a number of these challenges that we have can go towards addressing these major challenges that will see our country become a country of educated citizens who will be able to contribute significantly to the development of this nation.

Madam Speaker, finally, as politicians, we should be mindful that as our people are getting more educated, those of us who want to ride on the ignorance of our people will no longer have that opportunity to do so.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I will try as much as possible to balance the debaters. In fact, we have a lot of time. However, I have one request for the hon. Members: Let us try as much as possible to stick to the report. We have heard from the seconder that people out there have little information about the free education. So, please, let us stick to the report. Let us give our people useful information so that they can be able to understand the Free Education Policy in Zambia.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Report of your Committee on Education Science and Technology.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I thank the mover of this particular report, Hon. Mutinta and the seconder Hon. Mwamba. I have gone through the report and I think your Committee has done a very good job. Indeed, Sustainable Development Gaol No. 4, which covers access to education, is very critical for the development of this country.

Madam Speaker, as other debaters have stated that education is the best equaliser and an effective tool of fighting poverty especially in rural areas where poverty levels are quite very high. As your Committee has already noted that the free education policy has brought quite a number of benefits to this country. I know that in my Constituency, Chama North, I have seen an increase in enrolments in schools. I think this has also been replicated in many constituencies throughout the country. So for that, I say that it is a good move.

Madam Speaker, however, we are alive to the fact that as your Committee has ably noted that there are a number of challenges which have been brought about by the Free Education Policy, like issues of infrastructure, pupil-teacher ratio and pupil-book ratio. These are very critical issues in which we must take a radical stance to address these particular challenges. There is need that we, as hon. Members of Parliament must advocate for an increased budgetary allocation to the Ministry of Education. I am alive to the fact that countries which have invested more in education have developed to very high levels. We must not treat education as an expense but as an investment. Therefore, it is important that we increase funding to this sector.

Madam Speaker, it is saddening that your Committee has noted that the Government has stalled infrastructure development and this is a real situation on the ground. I think immediately when the free education policy was introduced, we have seen the abolishment of user fees and so on. This has actually taken away most of the resources which these schools used to utilise to run these schools effectively. So, what are we doing as Government to fill that gap? It is not only stalled infrastructure but it has also contributed to job losses. For example, Chama Boarding School used to employ quite a number of workers who were paid through the user fees. However, because of the Free Education Policy, we have witnessed people losing jobs. So, while we are saying that the Free Education Policy is good, on the other hand there are also negative consequences, which I think as a Government we must deal with.

Madam Speaker, the issue of community schools especially those of us in rural areas where really providing education services to our people because of the lack of infrastructure mostly in rural areas. However, we have been told that the volunteers have withdrawn services because the parents are not able to pay something for the volunteer teachers to be able to be paid something at the end of the day.

Madam Speaker, another area which caught my attention is the lack of mathematics and science teachers in our country. If this country has to develop at a higher level like our friends the Asian Tigers, it is important that we invest more in mathematics and science. So, I appeal to the Government to put up deliberate policies that can sponsor those who want to study mathematics and science. The Government should give them automatic bursaries so that we have more mathematics and science teachers. This is a very serious concern. Let us take Singapore as an example. It is the leading country in the world in terms of pupils who are doing very well in mathematics and sciences. So, I believe that as Zambia, we can also achieve the same. The same issue has been noted regarding the lack of information and communications technology (ICT) or computers in schools. If we have to develop, we have to invest more in this sector. For us to promote ICT, we need accessibility to electricity. Most of our rural areas should have access to electricity and that is why it is important that we need more money in the Ministry of Energy so that Hon. Kapala is able to take electricity to Chama, Shangombo and many parts of the country.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I am concerned and saddened, as a former trade unionist, that teachers have poor working conditions. This is why most of them are not even able to stay in rural areas. Even when the hon. Minister has given an assurance on the Floor of this House that when people are employed, they will no longer leave the rural but the trend has continued. Even the teachers who were employed recently, they are being transferred to urban areas because rural areas lack these amenities. We have also been told that teachers cannot have hardship allowance and double allowances. I challenge the trade unions in the teaching sector that it is important that they must come together and ensure that they fight for better working conditions for the teaching fraternity. Unfortunately, there are so many trade unions in the teaching industry and his is why the teachers are not able to get better working conditions. As Bembas say, “bamukolwe nga bafula, tabucha bwangu”. This means that if there are so many cocks, it is very difficult to know that is day light. So, the challenge to the trade union movement is that we all have one objective to represent the workers of this country. You cannot have thirteen trade unions in the teaching sector. I feel that is a hindrance to teachers achieving better results during negotiations.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I support the adoption of this report.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you or according me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kalabo, to add on to the debate on the Motion on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, the Committee on Education, Science and Technology embarked on a very important topic, which seems to be a new topic. Looking at the report, it shows that there are number of statutes which talk about the free education, but there was a challenge of implementation.

I thank the Chairperson of the Committee and the seconder for embarking on this very important topic of free education. For sure, Madam Speaker, all the challenges which have been highlighted there –

Madam, I was just chatting with the hon. Member for Kabwata over the same. So, if we look at those challenges, which one is a new challenge? As for me, speaking as a person from Kalabo, all the challenges were there. Be it ICT, teacher-pupils ratio or infrastructure. All these challenges were there. However, they are now more pronounced. This is why it has become a talk. This is why enrolment has increased in all the schools. In some cases, enrolment has almost doubled. So, because of the increase in enrolment, these challenges have become more pronounced. However, good as it is, let us look at the usage of the school grants which is part of the free education. The report shows that there is need for more accountants because the funds are being utilised locally in the school where they are no qualified accountants who can take stock of every coin and every transaction. So, I am sure that is a major challenge. There must be qualified skilled workers who can assist in the implementation of the school grants.

Madam, this morning I was chatting with one of the head teacher who was saying that I should help transporting the school material to the school. Here comes the issue of planning because schools are made to plan because there are some resources that are flowing to the schools.

Madam Speaker, let me now talk about the issue of community schools. With the introduction of free education and the banning the user fees, many of the community schools have almost become a challenge because all those teachers who used to be employed and paid by the communities have now withdrawn from contributing to sustain the teachers in community schools. So, it has become a burden on some elements on some elements in the community to support those teachers so that they can continue to maintain community schools where there are no Government teachers. So, this is an earnest appeal to the Government and the Ministry of Education that since there is free education, which every child must access, we request the Government to deploy teachers.

Madam Speaker, what happened in Kalabo, like I lamented in this House, was not fair because teachers were lumped in few schools. So, you would find that many of the schools in Kalabo do not have qualified Government teachers. So, this was an oversight that the people in the Committee of distribution of teachers overlooked. So, I do not want that things to repeat itself.

The report also talks about the benchmarking tour to Kenya where they were talking about continuous recruitment of teachers. For sure, if the Government could embark on a continuous recruitment year after year, some challenges like that of shortages of teachers in the schools we are talking about will reduce because sustaining of those teachers will of be part of it, but if there is no recruitment, it means that the schools will not have teachers.

Madam Speaker, I have seen the photographs. When you walk along the villages in Kalabo these days, you will find very few children paying there. Let me also look at the issue of sensitisation of free education. How I wished the Committee visited Kalabo to appreciate what I am talking about. How many people in Kalabo do not know that there is free education? Maybe, what could hinder some children from going to school is hunger or the lack of food. I can agree with that fact because not every home is able to provide enough food for children to eat so that they can continue going to school. On the issue of the school feeding programme, I request the Government to enhance and increased the programme to cover many schools because that is a direct effect and can make children like school.

Madam, the issue of free education is a welcome move because every change has its own benefits. So, this is a benefit for the people of Zambia for bringing in the New Dawn Government that has actualised the issue of free education such that even when we are saying education is an equaliser, at least, all the children would have gone to school after some time. Even the issue of the information and communication technology (ICT) will be a simple issue because everybody will be able to read and write.

With these few words, Madam Speaker, let me thank the Committee for according the people of Zambia the challenges and opportunities that come with the free education.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

We will now hear from an Independent hon. Member.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central an opportunity to add their voice to the debate on a very important Motion on the Floor of the House concerning education. As the saying goes, ‘Education is the key to Success’. Indeed, education is the key to success because all of us, without education, would not have found ourselves in this House.

Madam Speaker, I thank the mover, Hon. Mutinta, Member of Parliament for Itezhi-Tezhi Parliamentary Constituency and the seconder, Hon. Mwamba, Member of Parliament for Kasama Central Parliamentary Constituency.

Madam, on free education, we have heard that the Committee found many challenges and indeed the same challenges are there in Petauke Central. However, I was very happy because one of the challenges brought out was that in Petauke, there are many schools that are not yet commissioned because of the lack of staff houses. The President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema is on record saying that the schools can be commissioned even if there are no staff houses. However, the Provincial Minister and the Permanent Secretary (PS) in the province are contradicting what the President said. As a result, it is very difficult for the learners who are still leaning under trees, especially now that we are in June. Children get demoralised because of the cold, yet classrooms are there.

Madam Speaker, when one comes to Petauke Central Constituency, they will find these schools, for example, Lusowe Primary School. This school was completed a long time ago and the pupils are just looking at it, but it cannot be commissioned. This is because the Provincial Minister and the Permanent Secretary are saying that the school cannot be commissioned because there are no staff houses, yet the President is saying that the school can be commissioned and they can start using it because those teachers are on housing allowance. The Government is giving them housing allowance and the good people of Petauke Central agree with the President because taxpayers’ money for the people of Petauke Central is there and is provided to those teachers.

Madam Speaker, we find that the PS together with Provincial Minister, sit in the offices just to scrap off whatever good initiative the President is trying to bring. So, I wish your Committee would have gone far to find out why the infrastructure is not being used because this is demoralising our pupils, especially with this cold.

Madam Speaker, I cannot continue with my debate without thanking the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) which in …

Hon Government Members: Question!

Mr J. E. Banda: … 2002 brought the Free Education Policy. In 2011, the Education Act No. 23 of 2011, was enacted under the Patriotic Front (PF). We also thank it for putting it in the Act that free education should be there from Grade 1 to Grade 7, and then the New Dawn Government also came in. Indeed, Zambia is now improving, and soon we will be like the United States of America in terms of improving from one level of education to the other with each Government that comes into power. So, even when I become President, I will improve it whereby –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, I do not think you are supposed to debate yourself. The people of Petauke Central are listening and the point that you brought out was very good. So, please can you continue in that order, rather than discussing yourself or talking about yourself.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. It is very good that the New Dawn Government also picked it up from Grade 8 to Grade 12 to provide free education. To help the New Dawn Government implement this free education, we need to put up more school infrastructure and also to increase the teacher-pupil ratio, even with the furniture in the classrooms, we need to help the New Dawn Government to implement the free education.

Madam Speaker, let me also use this opportunity to thank your office for sending us to go to Kenya for benchmarking. What we saw being used in Kenya in terms of education is what we can also use here in Zambia. With this free education, it means that in all the 156 constituencies in here, every year, the pupils will be completing Grade 12 with good results. However, the issue is that when they want to go to university, these pupils do not even have any relatives in urban areas like Lusaka to help them. As a result, when one comes to Petauke Central or to rural areas, they will find that many children with six points are just at home, instead of going to university because they do not have a connection to come to the University of Zambia (UNZA), the Copperbelt University (CBU), or Chalimbana University. So, we will ask the Minister of Education to decentralise the school bursaries so that they can be taken to constituencies the way it is in Kenya. The university bursaries are attached to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) where each constituency is given the slots for bursaries at the university because today when we go to the University of Zambia here, we will find that three-quarters of them are just coming from maybe one province, which is closer to the university. Those in rural areas, like in my constituency, are being deprived and as an hon. Member of Parliament, I am crying, because I do not want to see …

Hon. Opposition Members: Cece alila.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: … my children not being educated. The Constitution has now changed. For someone to be a civic leader, he/she is supposed to have Grade 12 results, and I want the ones who will take over from me to come from my constituency not outside. We do not want to start importing like the way some of the constituencies have imported their hon. Members. That is why they do not talk here in the House to represent their people.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support the findings of your Committee 100 per cent and congratulations to the mover, but we want the implementation to be done now. So, Hon. Mutinta, please push the Motion so that the recommendations in the report should be implemented.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you very much. We will listen to debate from the only lady on the list.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity. Indeed, I thought I should also throw in a word or two to this very important debate. I also agree with the submission from the hon. Member who spoke earlier, Hon. Chinga Miyutu, that most of the issues that have been highlighted in the report are issues that we are familiar with and that have been characterised in the education sector for a long time. Of course, they look exacerbated due to the Free Education Policy that our New Dawn Government has brought to fruition which is highly commendable.

Madam Speaker, reading through the report, what I want to highlight, which caught my attention, –

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order has been raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, my point of order is drawn from Standing Order No. 212. Did the hon. Member say ‘Chinga Miyitu’ or ‘Hon. Miyutu’? I am just seeking clarification on whether she said, ‘Chinga Miyutu’ or ‘Hon. Miyutu’.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think the rule of the House is that the Members are addressed as honourable. If they meet in other circles where they are free with each other, maybe they can call themselves by their first names. When we are in the House, however, it is important that we address each other as Hon. Chinga Miyutu, for instance, so that even the people who are listening in his constituency will also give him that respect of being an hon. Member of Parliament.

So the hon. Member on the Floor was out of order to call her hon. Colleague as ‘Chinga Miyutu’.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue.

Mrs Chonya: Madam Speaker, I will accept your ruling out of respect, but I did say ‘Hon. Chinga Miyutu’. I know that the hon. Member for Dundumwezi is just being naughty on his traditional cousin because of the way his name is pronounced. I, however, did give the due respect to the hon. Member and I was agreeing with him that indeed these are issues that have been there for some time.

Madam Speaker, I had gone on to say that what I liked in the report, based on the lessons from Kenya, where our colleagues are also implementing the Free Education Policy, is that there is an element of schools still charging some fees to help supplement what they call capitation grants. These grants are equivalent to the free education grants in our context. As we are all appreciating from the report, both in the Kenyan experience and in our Zambian experience, the monies that are meant to support free education are not adequate. This is why various challenges have persisted.

Madam Speaker, I know that politically it is nice to pronounce free education, but the reality on the ground is what we are learning through this report. Therefore, I think that, in a way, we have to find a way of applying this free education in some kind of system. Those who are really vulnerable should get 100 per cent free education. However, we should be able to identify those that can at least contribute something. This is because if you look at some of the children that are enjoying this free facility, they are actually children from homes with incomes. I think a good number of them are from salary earning public servants and people in the private sector. These are people who can actually contribute something and improve the learning environment of their own child.

Madam Speaker, I believe that most people with an income will be happy to make that contribution, except that if you are offered something for free, you cannot pay for it. Even I would want to go for something free even if I am in a position to actually pay something. So maybe that is where we need to relook at this programme. Otherwise, we will continue compromising quality because we want to provide quantity in terms of numbers accessing our education. This is a very important point.

Madam Speaker, still looking at the lessons from Kenya, I see that the Kenyan Government actually pays fees. Some examination fees have been talked about here in the report, whereby the Government pays the fees for students in the private sector. This tells you that children in the private sector and their parents are assisted by the Government. It does not mean that they do not have challenges. Some of them have just sacrificed because they want something a little better for their children than letting them crowd in a classroom of 120 pupils, for instance, because they want free education.

Madam Speaker, what I like about this arrangement, while declaring interest, is the partnership between the Government and the private sector that we have seen in the case of Kenya. I think it is high time we also started thinking about Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) for the education sector. This should not just be for roads because in the private sector, there are classrooms that have very few pupils. Meanwhile, there are classrooms with almost 200 pupils in government schools. So what is wrong with the Government coming to some understanding with the private sector to address this situation? For instance, the private sector can provide accommodation and maybe the Government can provide teachers for the same school. This way, the Government can save some money which is meant to build infrastructure because the private sector already has it. Therefore, the Government can now reserve these monies and concentrate, for instance, on teacher recruitment and other vast needs in the education sector.

Madam Speaker, I thought I would just make that highlight. Otherwise, I also agree with the aspiring future president on the issue of university bursaries under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I think even just ten bursaries per constituency will help give opportunities to children in far-flung areas, while we have the bigger portion administered by the Higher Education Loans And Scholarships Board (HELSB) in Lusaka.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. I thought I just needed to highlight those few issues, although I had several, but time is not with us.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I appreciate my hon. Colleague, Hon. Twaambo Elvis Mutinta, who moved this Motion, as well as my hon. Colleague, here, Hon. Sibongile Mwamba.

Madam Speaker, George Washington said that education is the key to unlock the golden door of freedom. The purpose of education is to free the student from the tyranny of the present. Those are the words of Marcus Tallius Cicero.

Madam Speaker, in January, 2022, according to your Committee’s report, the Free Education Policy was introduced. Your Committee goes on to highlight the policy framework, which you will find on page 3. Let me highlight the policies that exist under this framework as follows:

Free Primary Education Policy of 2002;
The Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP);
The National Education Policy of 1996; and
The Ministry of Education’s Guidelines for the Utilisation of Funds.

Madam Speaker, none of these policies was promulgated in 2022. They are all old. Meaning that the education policy which begun in 2022 has no policy. It has no policy document you can find anywhere you go.

Mr Nkandu: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is that the reason that the problems in the education sector have become so rampant? I heard my hon. Colleague from Kalabo saying that these problems were there in the past. Yes, they were, but he acknowledges that they have become rampant. Why is this so? It is because of implementing a policy which is non-existent.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report is here and it does not contain any policy which was made in 2022. There is nothing. It was perhaps a campaign – Well, let me end there.

Madam Speaker, since there is no policy, I put forward my recommendation to my hon. Colleagues in the Executive. They need to create a policy, pass it through Cabinet and let stakeholders critique it. This will enable them to come up with a policy which is going to be consistent in terms of harnessing all parameters that are relevant to the provision of free education.

Madam Speaker, let me let you know that, in fact, this so-called free education is being paid for. The Treasury is releasing money every month to support this programme. So it is not free.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I know it is difficult to get protection from the hon. Members on your right. It is very difficult for me.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon Member, you have the Floor …

Mr Kafwaya: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... and you have seen me looking at you directly.

Mr Kafwaya: Absolutely, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, please –

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, all hon. Member have debated freely. It is just me who cannot debate freely in this House.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my right. Please, if we are not in agreement, we have the hon. Minister who will come and respond. In fact, we have not also concluded the time allocated for debate; try taking a chance so that you can also debate. At the moment, the hon. Member is bringing out his views which will be responded to by the hon. Minister of Education. He will tell us the way forward so that we know whether what the hon. Member is talking about is in agreement with what the Government is planning to do.

Hon. Member for Lunte, please, continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the lack of teachers in schools, the lack of infrastructure and the lack of furniture are constraints.

Madam Speaker, failure to pay double class allowance and rural hardship allowance for teachers is a serious constraint.

Madam Speaker, with a coherent policy, which has gone through the process of policy promulgation, these problems you can be solved very easily.

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam first Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, my point of order is based on Standing Order No. 65 in totality.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Which 65?

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, 1, 2 and 3.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Okay.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor said that the Free Education Policy which is being implemented by the New Dawn Government is not backed up by any policy. In the report, item No. 4.3.1: Free Primary Education Policy of 2002. This policy was not abolished; it is still operational.

Madam Speaker, the Government exists on continuity. Is the hon. Member in order, firstly, to mislead himself and secondly, to mislead the innocent Zambians who are listening out there by indicating that the New Dawn has no policy when, in fact, the policy is indicated in you report?

I need your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much for that point of order.

From what I am seeing in the report, under Policy Framework, there are policies that have been indicated; whether they are implemented is another question. In the report, there is 4.3.1, which talks about the policy that was formulated in 2002. There is also the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), which is latest. Then there is the National Education Policy of 1996. There are also the guidelines for utilisation of the funds. So, I can see two policies here that have been mentioned just like on any other subject that we have seen. There are many policies. However, the issue is whether those policies are being implemented. I think that is what we have to ask ourselves. However, the existence of the two policies has been indicated.

So, the hon. Member for Lunte, because of what the report is telling us, there are policies that do exist, you misled the public by saying there are no policies at the moment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have these two policies, but we are not sure of them being implemented. I think that is where the question is. However, for these two policies, it is another issue. We have all read that they exist. So, hon. Member on the Floor, please try as much as possible to be factual and follow what the report says. Like I indicated, the hon. Minister will come and respond to the issues that you are raising.

If the policy is not being implemented, then it is the duty of the hon. Minister to come and tell us where we are and whether indeed these are not there or if we need something new. So, the hon. Member will be focused on the report so that you update the people out there with correct information. The people from Lunte are listening right now and want to hear more about this free education that was implemented in 2022.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, there is no Free Education Policy that began in 2022. Let me read from the report.

“In January 2022, the Government of the Republic of Zambia introduced the Free Education Policy – ”

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, we have passed through that.

Mr Kafwaya: Sorry.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have passed through that.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, which passed.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have already passed through that stage.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, yes I am passing. I am going.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Pardon.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am reading the report

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am debating.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, it is about the issue that you are talking about. There was a point of order that was raised against it and there was a ruling on that. You cannot resurrect an issue that was addressed in the point of order. For the sake of progress, can you please tackle other areas.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I cannot respond to your ruling on the point of order made by my colleague. Let me just quote from the report.

“In January, 2022, the Government of the Republic of Zambia introduced the Free Education Policy from early childhood education to secondary school”

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague who signed this report signed a fake statement. This is a fake statement because in 2022 there was no education policy from early childhood education to secondary school. The policies that are in this report began a long time ago. As matter of fact, secondary school that was added was just from grade eight to grade twelve because there was already free education. My proposition is that; the Executive must promulgate policies through correct channels because in 2022 there was no policy. Even in this report, it is not there but is at the beginning on paragraph 2 of the entire report. This is fake.

Madam Speaker, –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! I think we cannot debate in that manner. We are misleading the people especially when you come out so strongly that the report is fake.

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No! It does not augur well because the people out there will not trust you. The people trust that you will give the correct information and where the Government is. So, for you to come and say that the report is fake, we do not agree with you hon. Member.

Mr Kafwaya: It is here (waving a document).

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We do not agree with you because you are misleading the public out there. They will not trust us with all the reports that are giving or debating in this House.

We make progress. We are not heading anywhere and before we hear any other thing that will disturb the public, I will use my powers to ask the Acting hon. Minster of Education to wind up debate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point order. Sorry, hon. Minister, before you come, the Leader of the Opposition in the House.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament enjoy immunities and privileges in the House. Today, is yet another sad day. I am speaking in my capacity as Leader of the Opposition in the House.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Mundubile: This is the second time that the hon. Member seated here is being curtailed.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I feel that hon. Members must enjoy their freedoms when they are in this House. They must enjoy the freedom to express themselves. The hon. Member was speaking from the report.

Mr Kafwaya: From the report.

Mr Mundubile: He was speaking from the report and all he needed was an opportunity for him to express himself. As the rules are, the hon. Members on the right, even though the hon. Minister, had an opportunity to come and rebut.

So, Madam Speaker, it is becoming increasingly difficult because even the people that are listening are not following these reports. What we are getting are interjections; one after the other. Why can we not allow debate to flow? So, Madam Speaker, I appeal, on behalf of this hon. Member, who is today falling victim the second time by his debate is being curtailed.

Madam Speaker, with you indulgence, he is left with one minute, it would be good that he finishes his debate so that even as the hon. Minister responds, he will be responding to what we have said. Otherwise, what is he responding to? Then in that case, if he is curtailed, let us close it. There is no need for us to wait and listen when his debate is not being included. The hon. Minister is responding to what the hon. Members have raised but if the hon. Members are curtailed, what will the hon. Minister be responding to?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House. Personally, I do not feel good to curtail somebody because the hon. Member who is being curtailed represents a good number of people - many people. However, what is important hon. Members, for example, when said this report is fake.

Mr Kafwaya: It is here in the report (Waving a document).

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

When you use such words as ‘fake’, ‘the statement is fake’ or ‘the report is fake’, and the people out there are listening, you will be confusing people. This is Madam Speaker’s report. It is not a simple report. As I mentioned before, I said, this is a very important subject and the seconder mentioned that people have little knowledge about this free education. Why can we not help ourselves to disseminate the information so that people will be able to get the information. When you say the report is fake, I wonder what people out there are listening to.

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think there is a better way hon. Member, that you can maybe bring the statement by just avoiding those strong words like ‘fake’. If you just say, maybe, something is not true or something like that but fake, in this House, I do not know how the people out here are taking that. I am sure hon. Member you can do that.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are sorry that we have to move on but looking at the atmosphere, I think, we are supposed to help the people. Just as I said, I do not feel good to curtail hon. Members because it is your right to debate. However, when the information is getting out of hand, I think, there is a better way we can put the information across rather than discrediting the House.

So, hon. Member, I am sorry for curtailing you. There are many hon. Members that have indicated to debate. Hon, Member for Lunte, it is just a coincidence that the other I curtailed your debate and today, again, I have curtailed your debate. I am sure we have to move on, as I already guided.

The Acting hon. Minister of Education, you can respond to the report.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kabuswe) on behalf of (the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker, sometimes one wonders why certain people are no longer holding the instruments of power.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabuswe: It is clearly exposed here …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, please ...

Mr Kabuswe: …as to why they are no longer holding power.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kabuswe: I wish to ex –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Acting hon. Minister of Education, I am sure you do better. This is a very important report which really needs important responses from you without deliberately beginning to bring in political issues. Can you, please, go directly to the response so that we make progress.

Mr Kabuswe: Madam Speaker, I apologise. That was coming out of shock.

Madam Speaker –

Mr Chisanga: Out of shock?

Mr Kabuswe: Yes! With certain behaviours, you can be shocked.

Madam Speaker, let me express my sincere gratitude for according me this opportunity to make a submission to support the adoption of the report by the Committee on Education, Science and Technology regarding opportunities and challenges on the Free Education Policy in Zambia laid on the Table of the House for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the committee chairperson, Hon. Mutinta, Member of Parliament for Itezhi-Tezhi Parliamentary Constituency for ably moving this Motion. In addition, I am extending my appreciation to all hon. Members of Parliament for their contribution to the Motion. Let me emphasise that this is not a fake report.

The report, Madam Speaker, gives an opportunity to conduct introspection for taking collective measures in the provision of quality, equitable and inclusive education. The implementation of this policy has shown us how many children were not going to school but just roaming the streets. Let me give an example of one school in Chililabombwe Constituency that, before the Free Education Policy was implemented by the New Dawn Government, had around 1,500 pupils. As we speak, there are 3,500 pupils at the school. The number rose immediately after the implementation of the policy.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabuswe: One wonders what was happening to that number before the implementation of the policy. Chililabombwe Constituency has over nine schools. If you multiply the number of schools and the number of pupils who went into school, we are talking about more than 15,000 pupils who were out school but because of the introduction and implementation of the Free Education Policy by the New Dawn Government, the children are now in school. This is as it should be.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, we acknowledge the observations and recommendations set out hereunder based on the findings from the interactions with stakeholders, both written and oral submissions, and from the local and foreign tours your Committee undertook.

Madam Speaker, indeed, the Government needs to put in place a comprehensive policy and legal framework to guide the provision of free and compulsory education in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that the Government is reviewing the Education Act of 2011, which backs free education at primary school only. This review will result and ensure that statutory provisions support the policy. The reviews include, among others, the National Education Policy, the national curriculum, and the 2016 Guidelines for the Operation of Community Schools.

Madam Speaker, the drive of the Education for All Policy is that the opportunity to benefit from education cannot wait for perfect conditions. Indeed, the urgency to deliver education services to more people affordably is now challenged by the pressure on the education system that lacks adequate classroom space, desks, textbooks, teaching and learning materials, water and sanitation facilities, science laboratories with adequate tools, staffing and other critical factors whose absence is likely to undermine learning.

Madam Speaker, let me state state here that the Government, being methodical, serious and having planned properly, and because of the consequence of the Free Education Policy implementation, the Government, in parallel, has put in place the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which has increased to very high figures. This in turn is supporting the implementation of the Free Education Policy through the provision of more desks and the construction of more classroom blocks.

Madam Speaker, immediately the Government came into power, it employed more than 30,000 teachers. That was to support this policy and make sure that as we are implementing free education to our children, we are also, in parallel, improving infrastructure, providing desks, and employing teachers. This is how you do things.

Madam Speaker, so, we believe that the Government is very ready to absolve the shocks that will come with a free education policy.

Madam Speaker, given these challenging effects, the Government will continue to embark on stakeholder engagements to galvanise a collective effort and develop strategies that will generate additional resources to support the implementation of the Education For All Policy in line with Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) target 2030 commitment to ensure that all girls and boys complete a free and quality education. This is aimed at encouraging co-operating partners, including business houses, churches and non-governmental organisations (NGOs), to supplement the Government efforts in providing appropriate support to the provision of quality education.

Madam Speaker, beyond this immediate need, the ministerial stakeholder engagements will spur a long-term effort at structural reform of the education system to ensure social justice through access to education as we strive to increase budgetary allocation to education with respect to education 2030 framework for action recommendations, and subsequently increasing grants and allocation to schools and infrastructure development, respectively. You may note that this year, 2023, the Government has created a budget line for schools dealing with children with special needs in order to achieve inclusive education.

Madam Speaker, the structural reforms of the education system will also, take on board stakeholders and partners, and ensure that classroom space, the safety of learners, infrastructure and the school community is guaranteed. Teaching and learning materials are provided with consideration of local writers and publishers. In addition, to ensure that the teacher deficit of 85,000 is liquidated by 2030, the Government will continue to recruit teachers, taking into account teachers of mathematics, science and computer studies in secondary schools. This will be supported through gazetting and establishing school structures.

Madam Speaker, the Government agrees to take robust sensitisation awareness programmes on the Free Education Policy using various means and methods. The sensitisation will be conducted using various strategies, including physical meetings with communities and other means of communication, such as radio programmes, explaining the role of parents, parent teacher associations (PTAs) and community members in implementing the Free Education Policy.

Madam Speaker, I encourage all hon. Members of Parliament to sensitise parents on the importance of education and take advantage of the Free Education Policy.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, the Government will continue to procure vehicles for standards officers to enable them function effectively. In addition, the Government will ensure that schools have access to electricity, which negatively impacts the provision of free education through digital learning as learners cannot use computers and access learning materials using computers without electricity.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi comes in, let me rule that the reference or the statement that the report is fake is in fact unparliamentarily. We are not supposed to use such words as ‘fake’. It is unparliamentarily. Therefore, I direct that this reference will expunged from the Hansard.

The hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, please, windup your debate.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, I thank all the speakers who passionately debated on this important report. This is not a political report, but an issue that intends to bring about equity and also to see that the education sector be different from where it was. I thank the hon. Member for Chilubi Constituency who emphasised on the need for a legal framework just like the report was indicating that what the Government intends is to see that the Free Education Policy becomes constitutional. In terms of legal pieces of legislation, they are adequate and they are in place. I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Sikongo Constituency who also emphasised on the need of investing part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) towards Free Education Policy.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North Constituency also indicated the need to increase budget allocation to the Ministry of Education. I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Constituency who also indicated the need that the school feeding programme be embedded in ensuring that children access education. I thank Hon. J. Banda for his passionate debate regarding how the Governments that have come gone have progressively wanted to see that the Free Education Policy is sustained. Hon. Chonya from Kafue Constituency also touched on the need to increase the grants so that the grants are matched with the number of children who are in our schools. The hon. Member for Chama North also touched on the importance to motivate the teachers and issues around the responsibility and rural hardship allowances.

Madam Speaker, I am tempted to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte for the comments he made, perhaps out of not having a broader understanding of the sector. I thank him for his contribution. It is an opportunity for him to understand this subject better.

Madam, lastly, I thank the Minister for all the beautiful assurances he has given with regard to the issues that have come from this report and the challenges, which we feel are just challenges, but not difficulties. I also thank him for the assurance he has made on how the Government intends to sustain the Free Education Policy and increase the funding so that we learn from the lessons we got from our benchmarking trip to Kenya.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND SOCIAL SERVICES

(Debate resumed)

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, before business was adjourned yesterday, I was taking about the Community Welfare Assistance Committees (CWACs), their members and challenges to do with the Social Cash Transfer programme. My speech was centred on CWACs and how real the issue is.

Madam, what I was trying to say is that the way forward for the Social Cash Transfer Programme to succeed, according to the expectations of the Government, is to ensure that the council, the Office of the District Commissioner (DC) and the Office of the hon. Member of Parliament approve the validation of beneficiaries. If this is done, all those, as the report highlighted, who are benefitting when they are not supposed to will be removed. Let me state that in Chasefu, particularly, there are many reports and I have even engaged the Minister of Community Development and Social Service. These are real issues. So, I am happy that your Committee has brought them out. We should ensure that the validation of the beneficiaries is not left to Community Development workers and CWACs.

Madam Speaker, traditional leaders and our elected Councillors sit in the Councils. The Office of the DC representing the Government or the President should also be able to see who the beneficiaries are in their districts. The Members of Parliament should also do that. When we do that, we shall minimise or mitigate on issues of people who are not supposed to benefit.

Madam Speaker, in the report, corruption was highlighted and I always talk about corruption. It had really become endemic and deep-rooted that everyone was involved. This became a culture and norm in this country. So, we can eradicate or reduce it by ensuring that those who indulge in corrupt practices by bringing in people who are not eligible, whether they are civil servants, are punished. When they are punished, this country will be a better country. Corruption is a cancer that needs to be fought now and forever.

Madam Speaker, the Government is grappling to find resources to fund the Social Cash Transfer Scheme intending to benefit people who are vulnerable, but the money finds itselfin the hands of people who are not eligible. This is injuring the people of Chesefu and myself. So, I want to see those who are involved seriously punished.

Madam Speaker, with these remarks, I support this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to debate in support of the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services that was ably laid on the Floor of the House by Hon. Dr Kalila.

Madam Speaker, our aspiration for universal health coverage must be relentless, resolute and must not leave anyone behind. We must perceive the Zambia Flying Doctor Service (ZFDS) a cog in the health system.

Madam Speaker, there are citizens in this country who reside in areas with the major challenge of difficulty in geographic access. These must not be left behind. They are entitled to primary health care services across the continuum of care. It is for this reason that the ZFDS comes in handy and must be sufficiently resourced to ensure that primary health care services and other services across the continuum of care are reaching the citizens of the this country.

Madam Speaker, as I state that it is important to focus on the health system in the country, our robust infrastructure expansion programme must target areas where, in transition, we are reaching through the ZFDS. We must invest in infrastructure expansion to create access to health services for areas that cannot be accessed, save through the ZFDS. Yes, for the moment, that is what we must do, but in the medium term to long term, we must invest in infrastructure. The Government is a going concern and we must take note of the progress that has been made in the past and ensure that we build on what was started.

Madam Speaker, it is for this reason that I am calling for persistent consistent investment in health systems to expand infrastructure. This is so, so that areas in Samfya, Imusho, Kaputa, Muchinga and Nabwalya, which cannot be easily accessed and are being serviced by the ZFDS could be, in the medium term to long term, supported with infrastructure and human capital to provide sustainable high quality health services.

Madam Speaker, the other important function of the ZFDS is emergency evacuations. Accidents do happen everywhere in every part of this country. Accidents can happen even in the capital and in areas where you have access to health services, but the level of tertiary health services that you require are not available. It is for this reason that the ZFDS must be available to conduct emergency evacuations. The report does pick out this function critically and it has said clearly that between 2019 to date, these services have been carried out adequately. However, this must be strengthened. The lead-time between the time when the patient gets into an accident and when qualified medical personnel attend to the patient is critical in outcomes. It is for this reason that the ZFDS must be part for the broader emergency response system so that patients who find themselves in unfortunate circumstances can be supported.

Madam Speaker the third aspect I would like to talk about is health care financing. Evacuation of patients could be part of the package of the health insurance cover that we have under the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). Therefore, the Zambia Flying Doctor Service (ZFDS) must forge a strategic partnership with NHIMA to ensure that certain subscriptions involve evacuations. It is for this reason that I am calling for that strategic partnership so that there could be services that could be provided for to ensure that services that include evacuations are covered. This would also give an opportunity for the flying doctor service to raise resources for its operations. It is not sustainable to rely on government financing from the Treasury where we compete with other sectors. It is important that we come up with measures that are innovative so that the service can raise its resources.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me emphasise the need for us to look at the Zambia Flying Doctors Service as part of the whole health system in supporting primary health service provision for people in areas where geographical access is a major challenge, and also to ensure that evacuations are made possible. Further, as a strategic pot of health care financing.

Madam Speaker, I agree with the Committee on the importance of Social Cash Transfer (SCT). Household income is an important tenet of primary health care, and it is important that the Government continues to invest in SCT to support the vulnerable. We have seen an increase in the amount of money available to the vulnerable; from K60 in 2011, to around K400 to date. This must be supported. Household income is an important tenet of primary health care, and would support the health of our people by ensuring that they are able to afford not only what they eat in their homes but also other social economic activities. Critically, again, SCT must be a pot of partnership with NHIMA so that those who are vulnerable can be supported and paid for through NHIMA so that it can be sustainable.

Madam Speaker, with those remarks, I support the report of your Committee and urge the Government to look critically at the ZFDS and invest in infrastructure, transport systems and ensure the human capital is adequate. Further, keep their gaze firmly focused on universal health coverage by investing in infrastructure so that in areas where we go at heavy cost can be eventually weaned off because we would have had infrastructure and human capital available. We should also just ensure that SCT is available for all the vulnerable so that we can manage inequalities.

Madam speaker, with those remarks, I support the report.

Thank you, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, because of the nature of the report being covered by two ministries that is the Ministry of Health and The Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, and we have run out of time, they are now going to respond to the report.

Hon. Minister of Health, you may proceed.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Thank you very, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to contribute by way of responding to some of the issues that came out during the debate on this important Motion on the operations of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service (ZFDS) and the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) Programme. Allow me to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is progressive. Let me begin by commending the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services for the comprehensive report on the Operations of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service in Zambia. Let me also assure your Committee and this House that the progressive recommendations that have so far been made by your Committee will be implemented by my ministry. I have taken note of the recommendations pertaining to the need to revise the national health policy and also the urgent need to review the Flying Doctor Services Act. The House may wish to note that the Government through my ministry has already started the two processes. It is not something that is urgent for us, however, it is something that is important so with time, we will get to that point.

Madam Speaker, the second issue raised in your Committee’s recommendations is the need for the recapitalisation of the ZFDS. The ministry has placed premium on universal health coverage and therefore, we are making sure that we support the ZFDS. There is need for the recapitalisation so that the right aircraft model and number of aircraft are made available. This is a huge under taking and will be implemented in a phased approach. If the ZFDS is to increase its frequency of outreach programmes to remote and hard to reach areas, it needs at least one pressurised aircraft, two helicopters and an advanced life support equipment together with assorted medical equipment. In addition, resources will be required for the construct and rehabilitating air strips across the country.

Madam Speaker, I hope the Government can finally repossess the helicopters which were being taken outside the country, and I hope the ministries responsible can consider the ZFDS.

Madam Speaker, the third issue raised is the liquidation of statutory debt which arose due to insufficient operational funding of the doctors services for the period 2016 to 2020. The bulk of this debt is as a result of penalties for delayed and none payment of the National Scheme Pensions Authority (NAPSA) and the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) contributions. My ministry will engage with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to work our modalities on how to liquidate this debt.

Madam Speaker, the fourth issue raised was on the repercussion of menstrual education in rural areas. The ZFDS, having identified the said gap, has made it mandatory to provide the menstrual hygiene and mental health education in all their outreaches. It should be noted that the ZFDS has implemented an aggressive turnaround strategy, which has resulted in the increase in the number of medical outreaches being carried out for the years 2022 to 2023, after a comprehensive assessment of rural needy areas through collaborations with traditional, civic and health leaders in hard-to-reach parts of our areas including hon. Members of Parliament. The ZFDS targets to service 100,000 Zambians in rural areas and hard-to-reach areas. As of 31^st May 2023, 54 per cent of this had been achieved.

Madam Speaker, the other observations or recommendations highlighted in the report on the other topical issues will be responded to by my ministry in detail through an action taken report. Finally, let me say that the ZFDS was as good as a dead institution. It is this administration that has gone forth to make it part of the health systems. As some of the speakers have alluded to, that is exactly what we are doing. Previously, it was left to die. So, I am just glad that hon. Members of Parliament both on your right and left have come to appreciate the ZFDS.

Madam Speaker, what is interesting is that when there is something good under the Ministry of Health, there is no mention of the hon. Minister and recommendation. When there is a problem, even when I am very far away, they say the hon. Minister, Sylvia Masebo, is killing people. Let us learn, for once, to be honest with ourselves and call a spade a spade. I hope that in future, we can begin to work together and appreciate each other.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister the word ‘killing’ is unparliamentary. Withdraw or replace it.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, well, I was just quoting what they write. They write that the hon. Minister is killing patients without being considerate that for certain things, it not the hon. Minister. What is saying, with your guidance in mind, is that now, when things are good, I would appreciate if hon. Members, both on your right and left, can really appreciate that we are doing our level best as the New Dawn Government to ensure what our friends failed to do, we do. When they come here sometimes to make it difficult for us to work and clean up their mess, it is heart breaking for some of us.

Madam First deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Minister! Again, withdraw the word ‘mess’.

Mrs Masebo: I retract it, with due respect to the Chair. What should I use?

Hon. Government Members: Failures.

Mrs Masebo: Yes, failures.

Madam Speaker, I am also happy that the ZFDS has been going to places in most constituencies that have not peaked and all the –

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister! There is an indication for a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, I come in peace and I thank you for this opportunity. The report is very clear and between 2019 and 2022, there were major evacuations done in terms of emergency services and the provision of primary care services, but the hon. Minister of Health disputes the report, the same way she disputed the report on drug shortages, and says that there was nothing being done and the institution and was being killed. She goes further to state that there were failures that she is trying to manage.

Madam Speaker, the …

Mrs Masebo rose in her seat.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is the breach?

Dr Chilufya: Oh! Just hold on, just hold on.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If you can also cite the breach as well.

Dr Chilufya: The breach is according to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, we must be factual. We did not fail in the health sector. We did not have drug shortages that we have today. We created more than 500 primary health care facilities. We created six specialised hospitals. Last week, we were graduating 100 specialists. Could you manage the language of the hon. Minister so that she can be factual and does not mislead the public and the House.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member!

From what I have heard, it is like you debated the point of order. Since you have debated the point of order, it is very difficult to make a ruling because you brought out all the issues with answers to them.

Hon. Minister of Health, please, wind up debate.

You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, as you see, these are the issues we talk about. So, in winding up, let me tell them that they should pay tribute where it is due and say thank you to us that we are cleaning up the systems that collapsed under their charge.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Wow! This was a very clean report where people were just supposed to debate nicely. I will now call upon the Acting hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services.

The Acting hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Nkandu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according this opportunity to debate on their report.

First of all, let me take advantage of the opportunity to thank the Zambia National Soccer Team for qualifying …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: … to the African Cup of Nations after so many failures.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I also congratulate the Hockey Women’s National Team for also qualifying to the World Cup next year.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, having said that, let me also say that today the credibility of every leadership is measured by its capacity to fulfill promises. I have said this because when we were discussing the issue of the Social Cash Transfer (SCT), hon. Members of Parliament are aware that when we were campaigning in 2021, there was a narrative that was given to the voters that if they voted for United Party for National Development (UPND), they would scrap off the SCT. However, today, it has been increased. In 2021, the budgetary allocation was K2,000,344,000, but today, it is now at K3,000,720,000. So, this means that we have really posted a very huge increase in terms of the SCT. I thought I should mention that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Having said that, Madam Speaker, I thank your Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services for the Report on the Review of the SCT Programme.

Madam Speaker, allow me to also commend the chairperson and his team for a well-thought-out report whose recommendations will go a long way in bettering the delivery of the Social Cash Transfer Programme, and in turn the welfare of the poor and vulnerable in our communities.

Madam Speaker, let me now comment on a few of the issues raised in the report beginning with the Committee’s observation that there are no explicit legal provisions that exist for social protection as well as the lack of a revised National Social Protection Policy, which has affected the co-ordination and the execution of the Social Protection Programme. I am very happy that we are discussing this issue because we are commemorating the Social Protection Week, which started on 19^th to 23^rd June, 2023, under the theme; ‘Adaptive, Shock-Responsive, and Inclusive Social Protection.’

Madam Speaker, I assure the House that the Government, through my ministry, remains very committed to ensuring effective implementation of social protection in the country and recognises the need for a comprehensive legal framework. In this regard, let me bring to the attention of the House that the ministry is in the process of reviewing the National Social Protection Policy, which will inform the development of the legislation on social protection. In terms of the observation of the lack of connectivity, especially in rural areas, where most of the Social Cash Transfer Programme beneficiaries reside, I assure the House that this is well noted and point out that consultations on this matter have been ongoing in the ministry and that efforts are being made to collaborate with the Ministry of Technology and Science.

Madam Speaker, let me also report that this matter has affected the digitalisation of the Social Cash Transfer Programme, a matter that has also been highlighted in the report. The ministry has embarked on the digitalisation of the programme as a way of cutting down on the high administrative cost incurred during the administration of the social cash transfer funds to beneficiaries, especially in hard to reach areas, but this has been affected by poor connectivity and we do agree with that. So far, twelve districts in urban areas are using the digitalised payment system. These include: Chinsali, Choma, Namwala, Lusaka, Kabwe, Ndola, Kitwe, Solwezi, Mongu, Chipata, Mansa, and Kasama. Roll-out to the rest of the districts is expected to be completed by October, 2023.

Madam Speaker, I am concerned with the report that the beneficiaries of the social cash programme were being charged K50, to withdraw from Tenga Mobile Money in some areas. This is a matter which will be looked into, with utmost urgency, because all administrative costs for these payments are already paid for by the Government. However, change is gradual. We know that there are rotten eggs in the system that need to be wiped out. So, I appreciate this report because there could be such eggs that are still existing. At no point should any service provider charge beneficiaries for the withdrawal of their transfers. This matter will certainly be followed up.

Madam Speaker, on the Committee’s concerns that the selection of the Social Cash Transfer Programme beneficiaries in some areas was not being done in a fair and transparent way, let me bring it to the attention of the House that registration is not done by the Community Welfare Assistance Committee (CWAC) members as perceived by many hon. Members of Parliament, and I believe that maybe it is because of lack of information. The identification of beneficiaries is not done by the CWAC –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, the use of ‘rotten eggs’ is unparliamentary. The person listening out there will not understand you and the word ‘rotten’ in the context that you have used it is unparliamentary. Can you replace the word ‘rotten’.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, I do withdraw the word, and maybe replace it with ‘those that do not mean well’.

Hon. Members: Yes!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Nkandu: Madam Speaker, registration is done using the pull system and this means that officers and CWAC members do not go out to choose beneficiaries to be registered. It is the beneficiaries who come forward to register.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank all the hon. Members who have debated the report as well as those who have not debated due to the constraint of time.

I thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1912 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 22^nd June, 2023.

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