Thursday, 15^th June, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Although Hon. Lufuma is not in the House, I will make this announcement in his absence.

Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government Business, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Ambrose L. Lufuma, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, 15^th June, 2023, until further notice.

I thank you.

PRESENCE OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM JUNIOR PARLIAMENT SPEAKER JUBILEE CENTRE, IN NDOLA DISTRICT, IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from the Junior Parliament Speaker Jubilee Centre, in Ndola District. May the pupils and teachers from the school stand up.

The Pupils and Teachers in the Public Gallery rose.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors in our midst.

You may resume your seats.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED ON WEDNESDAY, 14^TH JUNE, 2023, BY MR M. KAFWAYA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUNTE CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST HON. C. MILUPI, ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, FOR ALLEGEDLY NOT LAYING THE DEPOSIT SLIP FOR THE K65 MILLION SEIZED FROM MS MARGARET CHISELA MUSONDA BY THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ON THE TABLE OF THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Wednesday, 14^th June, 2023, when the House was considering the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs on the Review of the Administration and Operations of the Zambia Police Service, presented by Brig-Gen. M. S. Sitwala, hon. Member of Parliament for Kaoma Central, and Chairperson of the Committee, Mr M. Kafwaya, hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte Constituency, raised a point of order. 

In his point of order, Mr M. Kafwaya, MP, asked whether the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning was in order to mislead the House by purporting to have brought a deposit slip for K65 million seized by the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), when in fact not.

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker reserved her ruling in order to enable her examine the documents laid on the Table of the House, and render a measured ruling. I have since studied the matter and I will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the background to this matter is that on 7^th June, 2023, Mr S. Kampyongo, hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Constituency, raised a matter of urgent public importance on the K65 million that was seized by ACC from Ms Margaret Chisela Musonda, alias Faith Musonda, and how the forfeited funds were disbursed. I then directed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to render a ministerial statement on the matter on Tuesday, 13^thJune, 2023.

Hon. C. Milupi, MP, the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning, rendered a ministerial statement on the matter. In seeking clarification on the ministerial statement, Mr Munir Zulu, hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi Constituency, asked the hon. Minister to present to the House the deposit slip issued in respect of the funds. In that regard, I directed the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning to bring proof of the deposit.

Hon. Members, on 14^th June, 2023, the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning tabled a set of documents before the House in line with my directive. Subsequently, Mr M. Kafwaya, MP, raised a point of order on whether the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning was in order to mislead the House by purporting to have brought a deposit slip for the K65 million seized by the ACC when it was not among the documents he had laid on the Table of the House.

Hon. Members, I have noticed that this matter has continued to attract a lot of interest both in the House and the nation at large. Therefore, in order for it to be addressed conclusively, I hereby direct the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to issue a detailed statement clarifying the matter on Wednesday, 21^st June, 2023.

I thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I think we all have to learn to read the documents properly. I am referring to the documents and not the ruling. When we read the documents, it will be very clear. So, we will wait for the hon. Minister because I do not want to pre-empt his statement.

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

Madam Speaker: For the hon. Members who have indicated to raise matters of urgent public importance, I had seen no indication at the time that I proceeded. I think you indicated a bit late. I am already on item number six.

WATER SHORTAGE IN KAMFINSA CONSTITUENCY

290. Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation:

1. whether the Government is aware that there has been a critical shortage of water in the last one month in the following townships in Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency:

1. Ndeke;
2. Ndeke Village;
3. Changachanga; and
4. Mulenga; and

1. if so, what urgent measures are being taken to resolve the problem and prevent waterborne diseases.

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu) (on behalf of the Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mposha)): Madam Speaker, I inform the House that the Government is aware that there has been a shortage of water in Ndeke, Ndeke Village, Changachanga and Mulenga areas of Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency in the last one month.

Madam Speaker, the following measures are being undertaken to address the water shortage to prevent waterborne diseases:

1. overhauling of dilapidated water supply networks;
2. repairing and commissioning of three water pumps at the Nkana East Water Treatment Plant; and
3. increasing storage capacity at the Ndeke Distribution Centre under the Nkana Water Supply Sanitation Project, Phase II.

Madam Speaker, in addition, as an immediate measure, three water bowsers have been made available to areas with low supply hours to supplement the service and avert the risk of waterborne diseases.

Madam Speaker, you will recall that this question was asked again and the substantive hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation gave a ministerial statement here. Therefore, I have been availed with additional notes for better understanding and, maybe, reducing the questions which may come up.

Madam Speaker, the Government mobilised funding amounting to US$200 million for the implementation of the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project, Phase II. The project involves the rehabilitation and expansion of the water supply and sanitation infrastructure in Kitwe, Kalulushi and Chambeshi. However, the project was suspended in 2020 due to non-servicing of the financing agreement and outstanding interim payment certificates (IPCs) amounting to US$15 million.

Madam Speaker, the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project, Phase II was re-scoped to works amounting to US$60 million and prioritised for completion. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning has approved the re-scoped works and the addendum has since been approved for the extension of the project end date, payment for works in Zambian Kwacha equivalent and amendments of works into re-scoped works.

Madam Speaker, further, the Government has since released a sum of US$5 million as an advance payment on the re-scoped works and the contractor is now on site. Once completed, this project will benefit about 850,000 people in project areas, which include Kitwe, Kalulushi and Chambeshi towns. The overall progress of works currently stands at 44 per cent. The implementation of the project is expected to be completed by 25^th May, 2026.

Madam Speaker, another measure which has already been undertaken is that a new water pump at the raw intake was installed and commissioned in mid-July 2022, and is in good working condition.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, allow me to put on record that I am disappointed with the answers that have been provided. The reason I am disappointed, as I ask my follow-up question, is that the answers that have been provided are referring to a capital project that will see completion in 2026. My question, which arose from an urgent matter, which I raised this week, relates to the water crisis in the constituency. This crisis refers to the lack of water at the moment.

Madam Speaker, I had hoped that the substantive hon. Minister would respond because, clearly, the Acting hon. Minister is not aware of the problem. Nonetheless, my follow-up question, the first one of the two, is: When will water be restored to our residents in Kamfinsa Constituency?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that follow-up question. Maybe, I can just educate him that as the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government, we work as one unit. Where I am right now, I am fully informed and briefed, and this is a subject for which I am very competent.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: Further, it is a misconception to say – yes, indeed, this is a capital project. This is, indeed, a three year project which will be commissioned as and when certain works are completed.

,Madam Speaker, furthermore, and, maybe, this is very important, I am a member of a ministerial committee tasked to resolve these issues. It is chaired by my colleague, the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. I am glad to inform the House that the Cabinet actually approved emergency funding to do certain remedial works in that area. That was done, and I can say, with confidence, that even if the situation may not be as it should be, there is an improvement.

Madam Speaker, may I also say to you that this is a legacy problem. That supply network is about fifty years old and, in the last three or four years, there was very little funding going to ensuring that our people were catered for. Actually, there was a project funded, and our friends failed to pay for that funding, leading to the suspension of the project.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, please, if you debate whilst seated, you will be shown the door.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, he is debating behind me when I am trying to educate him, as a senior engineer.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, listen to the answers. How will you ask follow-up questions if you are not listening?

Eng. Nzovu: So, it is not about the substantive hon. Minister. It is about knowing the subject. The junior engineer should listen to me carefully.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, as I was saying, one thing I want to mention is that I sympathise with the hon. Member of Parliament. Indeed, our people in that area are suffering. The water network in that area is highly dilapidated. I assure him and, maybe, this is good news to him, that the Government is doing everything possible to ensure that our people in Kamfinsa Constituency, …

Mr J. Chibuye: And Roan!

Eng. Nzovu: …and Roan, are very well looked after. As I said, US$5 million has already been released and the Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, has set aside the full extent of financial provisions to ensure that that project does not prolong any further. So, I can assure the hon. Member for Kamfinsa that this caring Government will do everything possible to cater for its people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, this opportunity to ask a follow-up question to the Acting hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that the Government has provided water bowsers to cushion the challenge of the lack of water in Ndeke and Changachanga areas, but the hon. Member of Parliament is saying there is nothing like that. Is he thinking of travelling together with the hon. Member so that they can put heads together and give hope to the people of Changachanga and Ndeke, since water is life?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, let me thank the Member of Parliament, Hon. Jay Jay Banda, for very mature questions and not matters of urgent public importance.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: The hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa did not say that there are no water bowsers. There are three water bowsers, and I am sure he agrees with me. However, his point of contention is that the measures, currently, may not be enough. I think that is his major contention. What I am basically saying is that in the immediate term – just this morning, when I was informed about this task, I called the Nkana Water and Sewerage Company which promised to ensure that the other areas experiencing long hours of water shortage are also catered for – we are doing everything possible within the means to ensure that our people are catered for.

Madam Speaker, as to whether I can go with the hon. Member of Parliament, indeed, leaders in this Government are ready to do that any time. We ensure that we run a very transparent Government that cares for the people and respects their representatives in that area. So, I am ready, even if I am only acting, to go with him.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with my colleague, Hon. Kang’ombe. The problem of water and sanitation in Kitwe is extremely dire. This Monday, I had a meeting with the Nkana Water and Sewerage Company. The challenge is that it started a programme that was called the Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation, which was supposed to cost US$200 million. This project would have addressed, to some extent, this problem we have in Kitwe. The challenge we have now is that this programme has been scaled down to US$59 million. The specific areas he is lamenting about will not be addressed in this project. The question that I asked Nkana Water and Sewerage Company was: Can we not get to the specifics? If Ndeke and Changachanga have issues, can we not get into those areas and address those problems?

Madam Speaker, Kwacha Township had a problem of sanitation. The Government quickly went in and looked for emergency funds. As we speak, it is addressing that problem of sanitation in Kwacha. Why can we not tackle this problem in similar manner where the people in Kamfinsa, Ndeke and Changachanga, in particular, could get emergency funds to address it? The same is for Buchi and Mindolo townships. Can we not look for funds to address these specific problems as opposed to massaging them?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that very important question. Again, I have been very well schooled in what is happening there. There is, indeed, a US$200 million project which was signed, and that is the project which I mentioned earlier. I said that, somehow, the money was not there, and the project was scaled down to US$60 million.

Madam Speaker, the beauty is that the scaling up was done technically. The critical elements which will ensure that we reduce the water shortages in that area are still there. Remember that the US$200 million was to cater for a projected increase of about ten years. So, what has been done now, and I speak with authority, is to ensure that the immediate term is catered for. Funding for the longer term of five, six, seven years, and so on and so forth will come. We will ensure that we budget for it. Right now, as I speak to the hon. Members – since there is a lot of interest, I will talk to my colleague, the substantive hon. Minister – I think we need a sit down with the hon. Member of Parliament and everybody concerned so that we run them through what we are doing and, obviously, their input will be very valued.

Madam Speaker, the other issue that we are really tackling is the distribution centre; the pumps and the old pipes. All of that is in the scope of the US$60 million. We hope – maybe, this is also important for the hon. Member of Parliament – that in the next two months, when the pumps are installed, the shortages will reduce. Indeed, the long term solution is to ensure that a comprehensive project is put in place. I can only assure our people in Nkana and Kamfinsa that this will be done.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The question relates to Kamfinsa Constituency. So, if you want to bring-in other constituencies, you are at liberty to put-in questions.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I asked a follow-up question, but it was not responded to. The question was: The capital project will be completed in 2026. When will the residents of Kamfinsa Constituency have water? The issue that has brought about this matter before this august House is the water crisis. I do not expect the hon. Minister to start doing politics on the Floor of this House. People want water.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, people want water. So, when are our people going to get water?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, Order!

You have asked your question.

Hon. Minister, the question is: Have you taken any emergency measures to ensure that the people of Kamfinsa in those compounds have water? I think that is what the hon. Member wants to know. What remedial measures have you taken, as you wait for the project to be actualised?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I was very clear, even in my additional information. I said this was tabled even in the Cabinet. There were emergency funds released, and there has been a lot of work that has been done, otherwise, the situation would have been worse, in extent, I stand to be corrected by my officials from the ministry, of about US$2 million. Pumps and broken pipes were repaired.

Madam Speaker, I must admit that this is a big problem. It is a very big problem because the dilapidation was very high. For the other immediate measures, I said that we are doing right now is, obviously, the –

Hon. Member: Water bowsers.

Eng. Nzovu: Yes, water bowsers. We are providing some water bowsers and they are working. They may not be enough and, maybe, that is one of the things we need to scale-up.

Madam Speaker, remember, even if you call it a capital project, that is the answer. This capital project will be commissioned in phases. So, we are expecting that, progressively, we will be resolving our problem. The end date is obviously 2026. For us, we believe, the hon. Minister has informed me, that he is also budgeting for more funding to ensure that our people are catered for.

Madam Speaker, indeed, this is a legacy problem. That is not politics because it is the truth of the matter. Had it been tackled; it is a fifty-year plus old system and we had funding to it before, we would not have been talking like this. What has this Government done? Already, it has released US$5 million and set aside US$60 million. We care for the people. They did not release the US$60 million. What are they talking about?

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity given to me, on behalf of the people of Kasenengwa, to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that, firstly, this problem is not new. I remember very well that this issue came up on the Floor of this House and I am surprised that today, it has come up again. In his words, this is a caring Government. Is the hon. Minister sure, for a caring Government, that three water bowsers are enough for Ndeke, Ndeke Village, Changachanga and Mulenga townships? Is the hon. Minister sure they are enough or the ministry plans to add some more?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Hon. Members, can we have some order!

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kasenengwa for, again, that very important question. Indeed, the project is not new, and is very important. I think there is no question about it. Is the situation dire? Are things ok there? No, they are not. Is this a caring Government? Surely, if we compare a Government which suspended the project and did not give any money to the one putting up US$60 million, who is more caring? I think I leave it for them to give me the answer.

Madam Speaker, are we doing enough? Obviously, we have to do more. There is no question about it. Our people are suffering. We need to do more and will do more. As a caring Government, we have already budgeted for that money. We have put money aside and are going to budget for more money. We can promise our people that we will do more.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kang’ombe indicated to speak.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, you have already utilised your two questions. You asked twice, already.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, the first question was not answered.

Interruptions

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for his responses. I happen to know better about these four townships where we have this big challenge. The hon. Minister has acknowledged that there is a big problem. From the responses that he has provided, the people of Kitwe in those areas, it is likely, are not getting help now. So, does the ministry have any plans to engage the private sector so that, quickly, it can find a lasting solution because it seems the ministry has no immediate solution as regards this problem?

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that important question and, obviously, I will take the liberty to just quickly answer the other question that Hon. Kang’ombe asked, which he says I did not answer. The hon. Member was talking, basically, about this being a capital project and that he needs immediate answers and an immediate solution.

Madam Speaker, that capital project is also an immediate solution because what the contractor is doing, depending on the section of the network of supply, we will be commissioning progressively. Already, the woks they will be doing will be answering to the problem at the moment.

Madam Speaker, for my hon. Member of Parliament who has just asked another question, I think there is no debate about whether the situation is good or bad. Madam Speaker, the situation is bad, and this Government has already put money aside to ensure that we cater for our people. This we have done, and will continue doing. About being caring, we will care for our people to the utmost. That is why we were voted into this seat.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you. I think we are going in circles; the same question in different ways. So, I will allow only two more questions from our mothers, the hon. Member for Isoka to be followed by the hon. Member for Kalulushi.

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Madam Speaker, when exactly is that project going to start in Kamfinsa? The hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation stood there and promised the people of Isoka that in two weeks’ time, they would have water supply in the following –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, the matter relates to a constituency called Kamfinsa.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, I am just referring.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, please, do not bring up, through the back door, questions relating to your constituency. Ask a question relating to Kamfinsa.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, yes, I am about to ask the question. The hon. Minister stood there and promised the people of Isoka that they were going to have water in two weeks’ time in the following villages: Chuwi, Sunset, Mwaiseni, Chiwanda and Kawenga. Alas, to date, nothing has been done. When is the hon. Minister going to give these people water? When is the project going to start in Kamfinsa Constituency?

I submit, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you for that forceful question. Unfortunately, it does not fall under this category. Hon. Member for Isoka, you can put-in another question relating to that matter.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good of Kalulushi, an opportunity to ask the Acting hon. Minister on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa Constituency. Clearly, the hon. Member of Kamfinsa Constituency is visible on the ground and is indicating that there is no water supply. If, indeed, there are browsers, they are clearly not enough. It is headlined everywhere, even on billboards that cases of the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) have rose. Obviously, that is a very big concern for the hon. Member of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, mopping up US$60 million, as much as we appreciate, is not a small job. We have been in the Government before. The hon. Minister is asking –

Hon. Government Members: Which Government?

Ms Mulenga: Definitely, the better one than the current.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, can I be protected?

Hon. Government Members: You are engaging.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not ask questions which are going to provoke reactions. Hon. Member, please, ask your question on your point of clarification.

Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, my point of clarification is: In as much as we appreciate that there is a US$60 million that the hon. Minister is mopping up, this is a capital project, but we have an issue at hand. I am sure they have heard from my dear brother from Nkana Constituency that this is the trend in the whole of Kitwe, and even in Kalulushi.

Madam Speaker, in as much as the Government is mopping up that US$60 million and doing the re-visitation of the project, is the hon. Minister aware that the project stalled in 2020 and that we are now in 2023? In the process, there has been a lot of vandalism. So, the ministry could be working from a technical point, but what is actually on the ground is not as it seems. So, the question, from my brother there, is: From the US$60 million, as a caring Government, is it able to help my dear brother in the immediate term because the hon. Minister indicated it is already set aside. There is an emergency in Kamfinsa and other surrounding towns. Can the Government draw some of that US$60 million for the capital project to work in those constituencies?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. I think, now, the hon. Minister will be repeating himself, but for the benefit of those hon. Members who did not hear, may he repeat himself in that regard.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, I thank you, and I thank the hon. Member for that very important question. I think I have been schooled a bit in the definition of the word “better”. Who is better; the one who suspends or the one who puts up a US$60 million? I leave it to my fellow hon. Members to answer, again.

Madam Speaker, what is a capital project? The funding which has been put aside, called capital project, is the same money. We will be doing the same work. So, that money is there. Actually, that money, of which the US$5 million has already been released, is towards the resolution of the same problem. I can only assure my fellow hon. Member of Parliament from Kalulushi that we will do everything possible. This money has been set aside and will work for our people.

Madam Speaker, indeed, the hon. Member of Parliament is visible on the ground. The bowsers may not be enough, but I can assure him that this Government will do everything possible to address this issue.

Madam Speaker, ministry officials and the substantive hon. Minister and the Nkana Water and Sewerage Company (NWSC) are sitting together and efforts to ensure our people have water will be made, and made adequately. I can only ask that we work diligently together to cater for our people. So, I invite the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa to the office so that together, we run through what is on the table and then we can do a joint visit.

Madam Speaker, this caring Government will do everything.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Hon. Member for Nkana, you were chatting there and I do not know if you were even following. I was looking at you, watching. Now you want to raise a point of order. What is the point of order?

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, which is about being factual.

Madam Speaker, we live in Kitwe. The Nkana Water and Sewerage Company (NWSC) has only one bowser, and that bowser services even my people in Mindolo. The hon. Minister is telling this House that three bowsers are servicing the people of Ndeke. This is not true.

Is the hon. Minister in order to –

Hon. Opposition Member: To lie.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, we may sound like we are cry-babies –

Madam Speaker: You have made your point of order. Let me make a ruling.

The hon. Minister did not mention three bowsers.

Hon. Opposition Members: He did!

Madam Speaker: The person who mentioned three bowsers was the hon. Member for Kasenengwa.

Hon. Opposition Members: He did!

Madam Speaker: In the original statement? Okay, then. Thank you. I am sorry. I heard about three bowsers from the hon. Member.

Hon. Minister, they are saying you are not being truthful. How many bowsers are there?

Laughter

Eng. Nzovu: A company owning one bowser and providing three are different. Indeed, it may own one bowser –

Interruptions

Eng. Nzovu: I can tell him that the question –

Interruptions

Eng. Nzovu: Let me clarify. When we come here, we come ready to answer questions. The areas being serviced are the areas mentioned; Ndeke and Changachanga. All those areas are being serviced. The only areas being serviced by water bowsers are those critically deficient of water. There are three water bowers; one, two, three, servicing that area.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, I am not in Kamfinsa. So, I do not know whether there are three bowsers or one. I think you need to go and visit the place.

Let us make progress.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members from Lubansenshi, Nkana and Kamfinsa, please, stop harassing the hon. Minister. Can we come back to business. You can go and school each other outside. You are all engineers, I suppose or most of you are.

Let us get back to business.

______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON MEDIA, INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATION TECHNOLOGIES

Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much, and greetings from the good people of Mulobezi.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 13^th June, 2023.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Order!

Eng. Mabenga resumed his seat.

Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, you are standing directly in front of the hon. Member for Mulobezi.

Mr Kabuswe resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mulobezi, you can stand up. Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, you can also stand up. From the Standing Orders, are you not in contravention?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: You can resume your seat.

Mr Kabuswe resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Mulobezi proceed.

Eng. Mabenga: Let me start again?

Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 13^th June, 2023.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Of course, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: It is a new style, do not worry. Hon. Member, can you do things in a formal way.

Mr Mushanga: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

In future, when the question, “Is the Motion seconded?” is asked, the hon. Member stands up and says “I second the Motion,” not “Of course.” That is a new procedure.

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference as set out under Standing Order No. 197(b) and 198 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021, the Committee considered the topical issue entitled “The role of the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) in the fight against cybersecurity –

Mr Katakwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, hon. Member for Mulobezi. Maybe you can resume your seat briefly.

Eng. Mabenga resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: There was an indication for a point of order from the hon. Member for Solwezi East. What is the point of order, hon. Member?

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. My point of order is pursuant to our Standing Order No. 210 (1), (2) and (3) on failure to attend sittings. Let me quickly cite those:

“(I)   If during a session a member is absent for four consecutive Sittings of the Assembly without permission, in writing, from the Government Chief Whip or the Speaker, the Government Chief Whip shall report the matter to the Committee on Privileges and Absences for hearing and determination.

(2)     If the committee finds that the member has offered a satisfactory explanation for the member’s absence from Sittings of the Assembly, there shall be no further proceedings on the matter.

(3)     If the committee finds that the member has not offered a satisfactory explanation for the member’s absence from the Sittings of the Assembly, the committee shall, through the Speaker, report to the House recommending appropriate action to be taken against the member.”

Madam Speaker, today marks day seven that the hon. Member for Wusakile Constituency, Hon. Kolobo Pavyuma, and Hon. Nixon Chilangwa for Kawambwa Constituency have been missing in the House. This House has not heard a report, through you, Madam Speaker. I seek your indulgence in this matter if they are in order.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

The procedure is very clear. In accordance with Standing Order 210, without permission from the Government Whip or the Speaker, the Government Whip shall report the matter to the Committee on Privileges and Absences for hearing and determination. So, if the hon. Member for Solwezi East has noticed that the hon. Members are not there, please, do pick it up with the Government Chief Whip who will follow the procedure as laid out in our Standing Orders. That is not a matter that can be raised as a point of order. So, the hon. Member for Solwezi East is out of order.

May the hon. Member for Mulobezi continue.

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, your Committee also undertook a local and a foreign tour and engaged with stakeholders in line with its topical issue.

Madam Speaker, considering that hon. Members have had sufficient time to read the report, allow me to comment on some of the key findings from the Committee’s engagement with various stakeholders on the topical issue.

Madam Speaker, your Committee bemoans the fact that Zambia does not have a dedicated cyber security agency in charge of safeguarding the country’s critical information infrastructure. Your Committee was informed that such an agency was necessary to counter any cyber attacks on critical information infrastructure such as telecommunication systems, payment platforms, and Government databases.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that a National Cyber Security Agency mandated to oversee the cyber security of the nation be established.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that the fight against cybercrime is a mammoth task that requires a large and highly skilled group of specialists in order to match the efforts of criminals.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes with concern the insufficient number of inadequately qualified personnel to efficiently and effectively tackle cases relating to cybercrime.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government should ensure that funds are secured to facilitate training and continued capacity building of law enforcement agents.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act No. 2 of 2021 confers upon the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) certain non-regulatory functions. However, this has presented a conflict of interest for the authority. For example, parts 6 and 9 of the Act, which deals with the interception of communication, gives ZICTA non-regulatory functions that should either be implemented by law enforcement agencies or a specialised agency charged with the mandate of promoting cyber security.

Madam Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Act, No. 2 of 2021 be amended in order remove these non-regulatory functions which it conferred on ZICTA. This will enable ZICTA to continue playing the role of referee in the information and communication technologies sector while the function of cyber security can either be transferred to another law enforcement agency such as the Zambia Police Service or the proposed national cyber security agency.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, allow me to place on record the gratitude of your Committee to all the stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. The Committee also wishes to thank you, Madam, and the Clerk of the National Assembly as well as members of staff for the guidance and support rendered to it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speaker now or later?

Mr Mushanga (Kabwe Central): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, firstly, I take this opportunity to thank you for according me an opportunity to second the Motion on the Floor. I also thank the mover of the Motion, hon. Member of Parliament for Mulobezi, who is also Chairperson for the Committee, in the able manner that he moved the Motion on the Floor of the House on the Role of Zambia Information and Communication Authority (ZICTA) in the fight against cyber crime.

Madam Speaker, I will not take a lot of time since most of the issues have been tabulated in the report and by the mover of the Motion.

Madam Speaker, your Committee interacted with twenty-two stakeholders during its meetings. It also visited two provinces; Lusaka Province and the Southern Province.

Madam Speaker, just to add on some of the findings as tabulated by the mover of the Motion, one of the findings was the lack of transport as officers respond to the this subject matter on the Floor of the House. It is a big challenge for them to respond to the issues of cyber crime because of limited transport. It is a recommendation of your Committee that the Government, through line ministries, especially Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, provides transport to the officers so that they can respond to this challenge of cyber crime. It should not only provide transport, but also transport that is labelled. Our finding is that the officers are requesting that the Government provides private transport that is not labelled so that they are effective when it comes to carrying out investigations.

Madam Speaker, the other finding is limited information, communication technology infrastructure. Apart from that, there is also an absence of modern equipment or machinery to use when it comes to responding to cyber security crime. It is a recommendation of your Committee that the Government, again, through line ministries, especially the, Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, should come in to provide new machines so that officers are able to respond in the fight against cyber crime.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me also to state that ZICTA being at the centre of the subject matter on the Floor this afternoon, should provide a platform for other stakeholders by, maybe, once in a week or month, bringing different stakeholders to discuss some of the challenges that they continue facing as they respond to this matter of cyber crime.

Madam Speaker, having said that, allow me, once more, to thank your office, the Office the Clerk and the Secretariat for the support provided to your Committee during the deliberations on this matter that we are discussing on the Floor of the House this afternoon.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me an opportunity to make a few comments on the Motion ably moved by the Chairperson of the Committee and seconded by the hon. Member for Bwacha. This is a report of the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies.

Indeed, Madam Speaker, the cyber space is evolving, and we need to move with time. However, the new innovations in terms of technology also come with serious challenges. This is the challenge your Committee focused on, cyber security and the crimes that come with advanced technology platforms. Therefore, there was a realisation in 2021 by the Government to come up with a law that should be dealing with these cyber space crimes.

Unfortunately, Madam Speaker, it would appear this law has not been enforced or is selectively enforced. The indiscipline we have seen on the cyber space speaks volumes. I will cite an example. For people using mobile phones and having conversations, it is provided to the effect that, if one individual is speaking to another, and without seeking consent from the other person they are in a conversation with, goes on to record the conversation, it is a crime. However, we have seen situations where people can record conversations with impunity and make them go viral, worse still, conversations that involve the highest office of the land, the presidency. How do conversations of the President be a subject of cyber platforms and no one is seen to be punished? What are we doing as a nation? These are matters we should be speaking to because someone must be held accountable for, first of all, recoding and, later on, circulating. If you are seeing certain people are being quickly picked for, maybe, just circulating some items on social media and these serious matters are being ignored, then one wonders what kind of law enforcement we have. Conversations of senior government officials; a Permanent Secretary and a senior official, such as, an adviser to the President, record each other and then something goes viral, but no one seems to be punished. This is against the law.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member. Maybe you can assist me on which page you are of the report.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are speaking to the law. Go to page 4 of the Chairperson’s statement where they have cited the law which is provided to deal with cybercrimes. That is the one I am referring to. The cases I am referring to are provided for under this Act. I was part of the formulation of this Bill. So, I know the contents. It is important that we speak to these issues so that a solution can be found. Those who are law enforcement agents must apply themselves to this law which was passed by this august House. There should be no sacred cows when it comes to dealing with these matters.

Madam Speaker, all those that breach the Act must be treated the same. Those ordinary citizens who are running blogs, the bloggers who are circulating things and are being chased as weaker citizens must be treated the same as these people who are officials in the Government systems.

So, Madam Speaker, we are not going to achieve much if we do not apply this law effectively and without looking at who is breaching it.

To agree with your Committee, Madam Speaker, maybe there is need to enforce this law through amendments on where there are some weaker areas. However, even as we amend, we will not be sorting out anything if the law cannot be applied as it is because it in force.

Madam Speaker, it would appear the law enforcement agents only select certain portions to enforce. It should not be like that because the impunity will keep growing. This impunity of subjecting the highest office of the land to these kinds of crime and no one is doing anything about it must come to an end. I am sure we all know what I am talking about; the audios that have been circulating.

So, Madam Speaker, in agreeing with your Committee, it is important to safeguard the cyber space because if we do not, we could be investing in new innovations and creating more challenges that we might fail to come and deal with. That becomes a very big cost. So, we agree with the submissions of your Committee and urge the law enforcement agents that are responsible to enforce the Cyber Security Act to acquaint themselves with the contents of the Act and apply it fairly without looking at only weaker citizens. The law should not have a face. So, when we start seeing senior people that breach the law accounting for their actions, then people will restrain themselves and respect that there is a law in place.

Madam Speaker, I want to commend the Chairperson of this Committee and his team for the work they undertook on your behalf. We want to see that the recommendations they have made are acted upon by the Executive and acted upon with some visible actions.

The hon. Minister responsible infrastructure is sitting in for the Leader of Government Business in the House. We want to see some action on this report.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I support the adoption of this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: There are some invisible jabs here and there.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, an opportunity to support the report of the Committee on Media, Information and Communication, ably moved by Hon. Eng. Raphael Mabenga, Member of Parliament for Mulobezi, and my neighbour here, and ably seconded by Hon. Mushanga, Member of Parliament for Bwacha.

Madam Speaker, the Committee undertook to check on the role of Zambia Information Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) in the fight against cybercrime. I stand here as a person who is experiencing a lot of this cybercrime almost every week. I get unsolicited text messages like indalama sha balaanda nashifuma…

Rev. Katuta: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: …meaning that money for the poor is out. These messages are part and parcel of what this report speaks to in collaboration with mobile phone operators.

Madam Speaker, I note that we just recently enacted the Acts that protect our cyber space in 2021. We passed two laws here and, also, of course, the Information and Communication Act of 2009. I think, what is disturbing is that these are recent laws, but enforces are letting these cyber bullies, thieves and the like, to go away scot free.

Madam Speaker, we report these matters of cyber bullying to ZICTA because it has circulated a certain number to which you can report these matters. It gets reports, but there is never feedback on the final outcomes of those reports. At least, I have reported over ten of those numbers that come to me for different things. I just receive a message to say, “A report has been created and this is a case number” and it ends there.

Madam Speaker, we urge ZICTA, because it has the mandate, to collaborate with the law enforcement agencies. We urge ZICTA to have biting teeth and to work effectively with the law enforcement agencies to be able to prosecute all those who are involved in cyber crime, cyber bullying and all types of crimes that are in this area.

Madam Speaker, ZICTA, I think, in the report, is complaining about lacking authority to prosecute. I think this is the same with many other agencies that have regulation powers, but may not prosecute. However, they prosecute through the Zambia Police Service, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the other ones that have the authority to prosecute and through the National Prosecution Authority (NPA). I think, if ZICTA worked effectively with those agencies, it should be able to prosecute and bring these matters to a conclusion.

Madam Speaker, we cannot continue to lose a lot of money and property. Many people in our villages are duped everyday through those fake messages that go to them, for example, to send money for this and that or to press a number, yet those are fake numbers. So, many properties and resources have been lost by our citizens and we must bring that to a conclusion through the effective work of ZICTA. As such, we continue to push ZICTA to work very hard.

Madam Speaker, if at all these laws need to be strengthened as suggested by the report, let the legislation come to this House and be strengthened. We want to remove the duplication of functions that is listed in the report. ZICTA needs to work hard, with the mobile operators, on sim deregistration because there are many fake sim cards out there which need to be deregistered. This will ensure that everybody who has a sim card is traceable in the country. Without traceability, we will continue to have these challenges, especially for our people in villages who may not be able trace some of these people who dupe them into various things.

Madam Speaker, let me also speak on the Child Online Protection Strategy, for which I commend ZICTA and its allies because it is an important area for us in the Child Caucus. We really value the protection of the cyber space for our children to ensure that they can enjoy their time on the internet. They should have a sweet online experience as opposed to being bullied or lured by paedophiles and all sorts of crimes.

Madam Speaker, therefore, this is something that must be enhanced and taken forward strongly. I also note some of the challenges which were put out by the report which included the lack of commitment by some of the leadership in some agencies. This needs to be addressed by the Executive to ensure that we get 100 per cent commitment from all leaders in the sector. On the lack of professional skills to trace these hackers and the like, people can be trained. We need to just put resources together to ensure that we train our people in this area.

Madam Speaker, I also want to speak on the so called bloggers who are in the tendency of sharing fake information in this country. Those bloggers must be ready to face the law. There is no way one is going to be crying out after being arrested, and for just a day in the cells, starts crying that one is sick when one passes out fake information every day.

Madam Speaker, that is wrong and it must come to an end. We must call for credibility on all the bloggers to ensure that people who blog are blogging for the good of the country and not to destroy the country.

Madam Speaker, I rest my case.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me, on behalf of the people of Chitambo, to also add a voice on this very important matter this afternoon.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion and the seconder for the manner they have moved the Motion.

Madam Speaker, reading through your report, I note that technology is one of the things that your Committee is looking at. Zambia is advancing in technology and many things are happening in the cyber space.

Madam Speaker, your Committee interacted with twenty-two stakeholders, meaning that it did a lot of work for it to come up such a report to inform the House. I noted in the report that the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) is trying to advance a point to have an establishment of the cyber crimes court system.

Madam Speaker, as a Member of Parliament, I would like to welcome this idea and be part and parcel of those who are supporting it. However, before it looks at coming up with a court system, let it also look at some of the serious issues that would be taken to these courts. I note that we do not have an age limit for our children to own phones.

Madam Speaker, it has become very common for children in our homes to own phones at any age. When you look at what they are doing with those phones, you would regret. So, I would like ZICTA to also look at ways and means in which it can regulate the age limit to own a phone.

Madam Speaker, also, cyber bulling has become the norm of the day now, especially against women Parliamentarians. One lady was showing me how she is being bullied by some youths in her constituency.

Madam Speaker, you would really regret. So, we urge ZICTA to also look into that and ensure that such cyber bulling is curbed and brought to its knees.

Madam Speaker, I also note that, indeed, like my colleague Hon. Musanje put it, as much as we are looking at cyber crimes, we should not only look at the biggest issues. Even the small issues that are passing through our cyber space must be checked and verified. In certain countries, which I might not mention here, if one sends a wrong thing on the internet, the regulatory system is supposed curb it and block it. So, we urge ZICTA to come with such a kind of mechanism where not everything should be getting out of the hands of wrong doers to find itself on our social media.

Madam Speaker, our social media is being misused, including in the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. You find that there are small fights in that ministry, especially when it comes to football. They want to have football for icons and others are saying no to it when the whole country really wants to have such.

So, Madam Speaker, what I am saying, in short, is that ZICTA –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is talking in riddles. We are not familiar with that. May you get to the report.

Laughter

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for your guidance.

Madam, all I was saying was that the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) must up its game and it is time that we waited for it to bring to Parliament a Bill, which we shall support, to have an Act on cyber crimes to look into matters which were left in the Act which was passed on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, on infrastructure, we have, also, a challenge to do with telecommunication towers. You find that most of them, when you check around, the aviation lights are not working, yet they are very important components on towers because they inform aircrafts on the levels at which to fly and also show them that there is an object. You find that for most of the towers that are erected in this country, aviation lights do not work and ZICTA is just seated without doing anything. I know that the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development is aware of what I am talking about.

Madam Speaker, on the same infrastructure, indeed, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science is very optimistic that this year, they rollout about 300 more towers, but I am getting worried, looking at the time which is remaining this year, whether we shall achieve that target. I implore ZICTA to do more, and we are ready to support it should it think of bringing a Bill.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. I thank the mover of the Motion Hon. Eng. Mabenga and supported by Hon. Mushanga.

Madam Speaker, as I agree with the issues that have been raised in this report, let me mention that cyber crimes and cyber bullying are serious issues that we should not underestimate. The modern kind of stealing that has come up is that people no longer steal physically from anyone the way they would grab our handbags in town. The modern way of stealing is through cyber. However, what is more fascinating is the increasing number of cases in the country in cyber crime. Statistics tell us that in 2021, there were over 10,000 cases of cyber crime, and the ability by our law enforcement agencies to curb this were still at the lowest level. We are told that only about 5 per cent of the reported cases are curbed or the perpetrators brought to book. This explains that we have a lot of work, and I agree with this report that we really need to invest a lot of resources, as it has indicated, in institutions such as ZICTA and also enhance the collaboration between it and the law enforcement agencies.

Madam Speaker, the people who are affected mostly by cyber crime are those who are illiterate and are unexposed to internet use. These are people who come from constituencies like Itezhi-Tezhi. As soon as one sees a message talking about redeeming from abalanda, the second thing one does is call the person, and that is how they get duped. So, this is a serious issue.

Madam, when we look at the police stations, which are the first contact of reporting cyber crime, they do not have the capacity and, therefore, need a lot of support on internet use – 

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi!

There is an indication for a point of order from the hon. Chitambo. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 is very instructive. The hon. Member speaking on the Floor right now has referred to the people of Itezhi-Tezhi, his constituency, as being illiterates. Is he in order to refer to the people of Itezhi-Tezhi, whom I know very well, as illiterates, without providing evidence that they are, for sure.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether I got the last sentence correctly when I heard the hon. Member for Chitambo say, “whom I know very well are illiterates.” Is that what you said?

Laughter

Mr Mutale: No!

Madam Speaker: Who are not illiterate?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Anyway, I have not been to Itezhi-Tezhi. So, I do not know how many towers it has. I also do not know how many computers are there or how many people have been exposed to the internet. The only person who would know that is the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi. So, I am sure he is speaking on behalf of his constituents so that they can be assisted in a way. So, we cannot block him. Let me bring the facts to the Table by saying that his constituents are illiterate. So, the hon. Member is not out of order.

May he continue.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, I thank you, and you are invited to Itezhi-Tezhi. The illiteracy was in the context of the majority in most rural areas. There is a lot of illiteracy where online and computer knowledge is concerned hence, people are susceptible to being duped by those who are scammers in online crimes.

Madam Speaker, just to come back to the point I was stressing, if you came to Itezhi-Tezhi Police Station, you would find that there is not a single computer or access to the internet. These are some of the provisions that would help our people, when they are duped by cyber criminals, to start the process of investigations.

For instance, if somebody is duped today, that person needs to contact ZICTA, which is highly centralised. Officers in most rural areas do not even have the capacity to track the scammers. Therefore, I strongly agree with the report that we really need to invest and create a strong network between ZICTA and the law enforcement institutions so that we can increase the arrests of the perpetrators who are mostly targeting our people in rural areas.

Madam Speaker, the other point to stress also is: How can telecommunication network providers allow people to scam others and hack their gadgets through cyber crime? I feel that something should be done so that telecommunication mobile service providers strengthen their mechanisms to not allow people to enter into their systems and take advantage of people who are being scammed.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, let me comment on cyber crimes and cyber bullying. This is an issue that needs to be addressed, as it is indicated in the report. Zambia is one of the countries where children are exposed to cyber bullying, together with women, with impunity. Someone would easily get a photo of a child and post it on Facebook without any disclaimer. This is something which is just common and, for me, is a serious violation of the rights of children in particular.

Madam Speaker, I thought I needed to comment on these three points. I strongly support the report from this Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you, very much. Maybe, in terms of qualifying the statement of how the people of Itezhi-Tezhi are illiterate, I believe it is in relation to the use of the internet. That would be the proper qualification. In future hon. Members, let us use statistics to explain our positions.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. First of all, I want to declare interest that I am a member of this Committee.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, if you are a member of the Committee, you have had enough time to deliberate on the issues. We want to give an opportunity to hon. Members who are not members of this particular Committee. In that regard, I will ask the Acting hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to respond for the Executive.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu)): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to respond to some of the issues raised in the report of your Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies on the Role of the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) in the Fight Against Cyber Crimes. I commend your Committee for its detailed and elaborate report.

Madam Speaker, as you may know, this Committee comprises two ministries, namely the Ministry of Technology and Science and the Ministry of Information and Media.

Madam Speaker, allow me to quickly respond to some of the issues that your Committee observed and recommended.

Madam Speaker, on the progress report, I start by assuring this august House that the New Dawn Administration is still committed to enacting the Access to Information Bill into law. As some hon. Members of this august House may recall, the United Party for National Development (UPND) was the first party to table the Access to Information Bill in this Parliament, in 2002.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, the UPND has always considered access to information as an integral part of democratic governance.

Having said that, Madam Speaker, I inform this august House, that currently, the Cabinet is studying the provisions of the Bill with the view of aligning it to the needs of the day. Things are not the same as they were in 2002. Immediately certain decisions are made, we will announce the next step.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note in the report that your Committee was concerned and recommended we start considering the Zambia Media Council (ZAMEC) for legislation. So, the New Dawn Administration, through my ministry, and working together with the Media Liaison Committee (MLC), is already in the process of enacting this law. At the moment, the final Zambia Media Council Layman’s Bill is at the Ministry of Justice for clearance.

So, that is the way we are working as the New Dawn Administration. By now, we would have brought the Bill to Parliament, but there was a minor setback. An association of media owners requested for the process to be halted. They thought they would be affected adversely as operators of media houses if journalists established a professional body backed by law. However, it has turned out not to be the case. So, the process is resuming next week.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also recommended that the Government looks at media law reforms. My ministry has taken note that the enactment of the access to information law will directly trigger the review of many pieces of legislation. The Executive is co-ordinating on legislation that needs to be reviewed.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also raised concerns on the Television Levy (TV Levy). My ministry has taken note of the issue of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation’s (ZNBC) collection of TV Levy and the introduction of the Radio Levy. Your Committee may wish to note that the collection of TV Levy by the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) is provided for in the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act, which the ministry is currently reviewing.

Madam Speaker, in addition–

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are at a loss as hon. Members.

I am raising this point of order pursuant to Standing Orders No. 65 (1) (a), which reads:

“(1) A member who is debating shall –

(a) confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion”.

Madam Speaker, for the purpose of clarity, the subject under discussion as tabled by your Committee is:

“The Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies on the Role of the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority in the Fight Against Cyber Crimes, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.”

Madam Speaker, this is the subject matter. Is the hon. Minister, I do not know which ministry he is acting for …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: … in order to focus –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: You can question, but you need to understand our role. Our role on this side is not to sit and –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Shiwang’andu!

Your role …

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are being –

Madam Speaker: … is not to preach to the others or to lecture them. Just stick to your lane.

Mr Kampyongo: They should also listen.

Hon. Government Member: Sit down!

Mr Kampyongo: The Speaker has guided us not to debate whilst seated and we would like to see some of you walk out.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister on the Floor in order to veer off the subject matter as presented by the Chairperson of your Committee and ably seconded by the Vice-Chairperson and start to lecture us about the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), the TV Levy and the Act, which are not the subject matter?

Madam Speaker, you know the role of your Committee. So, when it focusses on a subject matter, it is what should draw the attention of the Executive. Is the hon. Minister in order to continue on that trajectory?

I seek your serious guidance and ruling.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much.

I have looked at the report and I have noticed that the Acting hon. Minister is also commenting on matters on the Action-Taken Report, which are contained there. However, Acting hon. Minister, as you debate, please, focus on the subject matter under discussion. The subject matter under discussion is the Role of the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) in the Fight against Cyber Crimes. So, you can focus your mind on that, Acting hon. Minister.

You may proceed.

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, thank you for that guidance. I just wanted to make sure that people understand that issues patterning to science and technology are combined in the Action-Taken Report. This is where I was laying a foundation regarding information legislations.

Madam Speaker, let me move on quickly to the issues that have been raised by hon. Members; cyber crime challenges, improvement of infrastructure in terms of technology, and issues to do with regulation of ownership of mobile phones. There is also cyber bullying going on, a serious issue that we are facing.

 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, this Government is committed to correcting and improving things. So far, we, as the New Dawn administration, have tried our level best to make sure that we start investing in science and technology and improve the infrastructure that is supposed to be used to enhance the effectiveness of systems to work.

Madam Speaker, the putting up of infrastructure, that hon. Members mentioned, such as the erecting of towers across the country, is a work in progress. As we speak, we are in the process of making sure that the entire nation is connected to the internet. Hence, in that direction, we will be able to enhance the effectiveness of this institution to deliver services that are required. So, this is a Government that is starting everything from the bottom because some of the issues and challenges that we are facing are legacy issues. So, this administration is working hard to ensure that it achieves the objectives that are going to help our nation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, on issues to do with the owning of phones, one of the hon. Members who debated the Motion suggested that we start regulating the age limit for owning phones. In this new era, studies start at Early Childhood Education (ECE) level, and we are encouraging our pupils, students and children to understand the new technologies in terms of service delivery.

Mr Kangombe: Manjanta!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, issues to do with the managing or regulating of age limits will not be considered because we are going through technology. All we have to do is strengthen the laws that are going to protect our children.

So, Madam Speaker, this Government is very committed. We are also looking at other aspects that hon. Members mentioned in terms of social media. “Sho sho” media as at now, …

Laughter

Hon. Members: sho sho media!

Mr Chikote: “Sho sho” media as at now, Madam Speaker, …

Laughter

Hon. Members: sho sho media!

Mr Kangombe: Manjanta!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon..Members, in Mbunda there is no “so” there is “sho”.

Laugher

Madam Speaker: On a lighter note.

You may proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Chikote: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Social media is not regulated. So, we are trying to review some of these legislations so that we make laws that will govern “sho sho” media.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, we believe and trust that this Government will not leave, …

Madam Speaker: Order, Acting hon. Minister!

Please wind up, your time is up.

Hon. Members: Sho sho!

Laughter

Mr Chikote: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In conclusion, I assure this august House that all those concerns that have been raised by your Committee have been taken note of by this Government, and it will respond to some of the issues that have been raised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mulobezi, wind up the debate.

Mr J. Chibuye: Senior engineer. Ema engineer aya!

Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, I thank the following hon. Members for their invaluable contributions: the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, the hon. Member for Mbabala, the hon. Member for Chitambo, the hon. Member for Itezhi-tezhi, and the hon. Minister who has just finished debating. We hope the Executive will act on our recommendations.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Question put and agreed to.

REPOR OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND NATURAL RESOURCES

(Debate resumed)

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker. In conclusion, …

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye: Ema youth chair aya!

Mr Miyutu: … the report also indicated the need for research. It is very difficult to improve the livestock sector without basing it on research. Research will unveil details of the challenges that farmers are experiencing. So, I urge the Government to increase funding to all research stations.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of vaccine production, the report has indicated that Zambia could have the capacity to produce vaccines. The centre that is located in Chilanga, the Central Veterinary Research Institute (CVRI) is poorly funded. However, the visit by the Committee indicated that if it was well funded, it could have the capacity to produce all the required vaccines that could keep the health of our animals up to standard. So, I urge the Government to pump money into the research station in Chilanga so that it is updated to the required standard to enable farmers receive vaccines instead of depending on imports, every time, from Botswana and other countries.

With these few words, Madam Speaker, I support the report so that livestock production can increase.

Thank you very much, Madam.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for according me this opportunity to add a few sentences to the debate on this very important topic on the Floor of the House, today.

Madam Speaker, veterinary service is one of the most important issues, especially, in my Constituency because the people of Namwala depend on livestock. Yes, we are all aware that before, livestock was not taken as a very serious sector. However, with the change globally, everyone wants to get involved in this same sector which we are discussing today.

Madam Speaker, I want to emphasis on an issue of importance that we need to improve on in this sector. Yes, as we are aware, previously, people just kept animals for prestige or for selling when they had problems of a lack of food or rain. However, now, globally, this sector has been taken as a serious business where people ought to earn a living.

Madam Speaker, there are capital benefits that people can get out of this sector, currently. This is the sector that can create employment and contribute positively to the growth of our economy. It can create employment for the citizens of the country. Further, we can use the products of this same livestock as manure. This manure can be used in the agricultural sector by those people who cannot manage or afford to buy fertiliser.

Madam Speaker, the skins that we get from these same animals can be used in industries. In other words, this is a very important sector which a reasonable Government ought to put a lot of hustle into so that people, in any country, can actually get what they always long to have.

Madam Speaker, there are capital issues that we need to improve on in this sector. Among others, we need to ensure that we have enough dip tanks in the country. It was so disheartening to hear from the seconder that currently, there are no operational Government dip tanks, meaning that we do not have dip tanks in this country. If, indeed, that is the correct position, it means that it will be difficult for anyone to talk about improving this industry.

Madam Speaker, we need to ensure that our veterinary officers are given enough training. It can either be in-training or from outside. We need to equip officers in the Veterinary Department with the necessary skills so that we are able to fight diseases whenever they are detected.

Madam Speaker, further, it is very important that the people in charge fund this sector with enough resources so that the people in that department can move from one point to another. The prevailing situation or the situation that we found was that whenever there was an outbreak, it was always difficult for the Veterinary Department to organise transport or resources to actually transport veterinary officers to the areas which were affected. So, we are requesting the people in charge or the people in authority to ensure that this department is well funded.

Madam Speaker, currently, we have all seen that even those who never believed in keeping animals, these days, are seriously getting involved and are admiring. They have seen that it is not just a matter of munching. We need to seriously get involved and know where exactly these animals are coming from. We can improve our lives through the keeping of these animals. We can create employment. So, the ministry that superintends over this department directly ought to ensure that we put up a lot of resources for the betterment of this country.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, we are here on the report talking about how effective the department of veterinary service is in combating livestock diseases in Zambia. So, the question is: Is it effective? We all know the answer.

Madam Speaker, in my constituency, our animals, actually, are victim of tick disease. I have had people lose animals where, somebody had thirty animals, and only remains with one.

Hon. Member: This year?

Mr Kamboni: Yes, just recently. Aother had seventeen animals and remained with two. If you go to the abattoir, you have 100 sick animals.

Madam Speaker, these offices are meant to help. We have a country that desperately needs a lot of revenue. We can make a lot more money than we make from minerals, from livestock. Let me give an example of the office in my constituency to see how effective it is. Officers have no car or motorbike that moves. So, the day I reported that there was a disease outbreak and people were losing animals, it took them three days to get a car to go and get samples, and when they did, there was no laboratory nearby. Surely, the Ministry of Fishers and Livestock has an opportunity, in the New Dawn Government, to improve this area. Why should we move blood all the way from Livingstone to Chilanga? Honestly, can we not build a lab somewhere? We need more laboratories, and that is what the report is saying.

Therefore, as hon. Members of Parliament, we should also support this ministry to have more funding so that it can work effectively. As I said, there are no laboratories. We also need to improve now. From 1964, we have been failing to sell our animals to the European Union market when other countries like Botswana and South Africa are able to. Why can we not have clean zones? Where are our researchers, so that we can have clean zones and from those clean zones, we can export meat and add value to it? However, we talk about these things and we do not see much progress on them. I think the New Dawn Government has an opportunity, now, to come up with measures that will really make this department very effective so that we can get more revenue from livestock. As it is now, it is quite a sad story.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the law, this is a House of laws, where we make laws. In the Act, no matter how many animals die from certain diseases, that cannot be called a crisis. For tick borne diseases, even if in a day, you lose 7,000 animals, according to the Act, that is not a crisis. It is only a crisis when certain diseases occur. I think there is a need to change that Act. We should look at the number of animals that are dying to declare a crisis. When I called veterinary officers regarding the tick borne disease, I was told it was not a crisis. They said they do not call it a crisis because our laws do not allow. That is why, even their reaction leaves much to be desired when one is under pressure as an hon. Member of Parliament receiving so many phone calls. When one makes follow-ups, one does not see any reaction. That is not very good. As hon. Members of Parliament, we represent people. Therefore, when we call to say this is what is happening, it is high time that those who in offices listened to us. If they cannot listen, then they need something else.

Madam Speaker, let us now talk about the issue of adequate workforce. The Government employed many medical doctors, about 11,000. When human beings are sick, they go to the hospital. However, when animals like cows are sick, it is the doctor to go where they are. That is the difference. Therefore, we need a bigger workforce. If one doctor takes one direction, for example, to Kalomo District, where there so many animals, who goes to the other areas? However, when human beings are sick, one doctor can attend to 700 or 300 people because they will all go to where he is. However, with animals, doctors go to where the sick are.

The Government needs to employ more veterinary doctors so that they can be plenty not only in times of crisis, but also when people go, needing to pick them up. They should be available, and only then will we be deemed as seriously investing in livestock.

We need to do a lot of things to make this ministry effective. I thank Parliament for carrying out the research because it is one area where we can raise a lot of money, if we took it seriously.

Madam Speaker, as regards vaccines, I do know that in Chilanga, they make Newcastle, Chitongo and Black Quarter (BQ) Vaccines from laboratory, but when we go to see the equipment that they are using, it leaves much to be desired. Just by looking at the equipment, one can tell that they are using primitive equipment. In this digital era, there is a need to invest more, not only in laboratories, but also in the equipment the doctors are using. When one goes there, the place looks like it has been abandoned. The place is like a graveyard when you reach it. No one is paying attention to improve it.

Madam Speaker, we need to inject more money so that that laboratory the main centre can be effective and the speed can improve. When one takes the blood samples for animals there, one has to wait for two weeks for the results. Meanwhile, animals are dying and the disease is not waiting. So, where is the effectiveness? This is where we need to improve and make sure that the response is effective.

Madam Speaker, I have another area where I would like to comment. One can move an animal from South Africa into Zambia without problems, but we are told that we cannot move an animal from anywhere within Zambia into the Eastern Province. Why? From 1964, the tick borne disease that is in the Eastern Province is different from what is in other provinces, and all the veterinary doctors do is simply not to allow animals to move there. That, to me, is retrogressive. When are they going to do the research to find out what would happen if animals met and then come up with a remedy? All they are doing is to sit and say “We do not allow.” That is not fair. The people in the Eastern Province also need to improve their breed so that they can also benefit, hugely.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: I am now challenging this ministry and the doctors who are in research to find a remedy. We do not want to hear the language that we cannot take an animal into the Eastern Province, yet it is easier for me to bring an animal from South Africa or Zimbabwe into Zambia. Why can I not take an animal into the Eastern Province? What are the researchers doing? They have been given homework to research and find a remedy for that problem.

Madam Speaker, for me, really, this is an area where we have to be serious about. We can make a lot of money. Those who are in offices should change their attitudes. When we seek help, they must respond. Sometimes, the language they use is not pleasing. I was under pressure, but did not receive the help that I expected, even in the circumstances that we are in.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to debate, and allow me to ride on Hon. Kamboni’s submission.

Madam Speaker, neighbouring Botswana transformed this sector because it had the resolve to move from being a desert and create an ideal environment for livestock. Today, they have penetrated markets in Europe and many other markets. Namibia also has done the same.

Madam Speaker, when we talk about Zambia, the case is saddening. The Laissez-faire attitude at the ministry leaves much to be desired. With the technocrats and the minds at this ministry, the submission is that we cannot solve these problems with the same mentality and mindset which created them. My appeal to my brother, the hon. Minister, is that he should leave a legacy that he transformed this sector for the better.

Madam Speaker, when we look at the National Trade Policy (NTP), Zambia is supposed to be a net exporter. There is no reason it cannot be exporting quality beef into the United States (US) and Europe. There is no reason it cannot manage disease control. The challenge that we are suffering from is this paralysis. We have refused to rise to the occasion and do what is right. Unfortunately, hon. Ministers get trapped by certain advice from technocrats who would like to maintain the status quo. We are calling on the hon. Minister and the ministry to do what is right; transform this ministry for the better.

Madam Speaker, in making my submission, let me say that this is one sector that has tremendous potential to bring about the much-needed Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in this country. It is a curse that Zambia cannot satisfy or even supply the regional market when it has the ideal climate to support livestock farming.

Madam Speaker, the same goes for fisheries. We import fish, beef and beef products. Are we not ashamed? Maybe, there must come a day when all of us must dress up in sackcloth and ashes and just be ashamed of ourselves because we have failed to rise to the occasion and do what is right, as a country.

Madam Speaker, it is very important that as we seek to move forward, the question must be: What are we doing to benchmark our progress as a country? I do not remember the last time I heard that the ministry had moved into Botswana to study the Botswana model or that it had gone into Namibia and studied what the country did right. Neither I have I heard that the ministry got to Mali or Uganda to see what our colleagues did right. All we are being told, today, is that the department needs additional funding. I beg to differ. What this ministry needs is a complete overhaul. We cannot put new wine in old wine skin. It will burst. The challenge is not a lack of resources. We have the natural resources; the pasture and the climate. Those are the resources we have. The challenge we have is the mindset and the desire to maintain the status quo because of business collusions.

Madam Speaker, we go the Fisheries Act. We have an Act that says the director is the alpha and the omega. What the director says is final. One cannot even appeal to either the hon. Minister or the High Court, and we are comfortable with the status quo. How do we reform this particular sector?

Madam Speaker, in going forward, when we compare ourselves to what other countries have done, there are critical lessons to be drawn, which are as follows:

1. effective disease control strategy. This means we facilitate early detection of disease;
2. prompt warning mechanisms;
3. effective prevention of disease spread; and
4. effective and rapid response to outbreaks.

Madam Speaker, there is every need for us to grow this capacity in these departments by reforming them, in particular, the department under discussion this afternoon.

Madam Speaker, on page 31, the report talks about the animal information and traceability systems. Again, in the current status quo, this system will not serve the purpose. It calls for us to change the status quo. This is a clarion call on the hon. Minister to reorganise his team, if we are going to deliver and get the best dividend from this sector.

Madam Speaker, on the involvement of the farmers themselves, today, if you go to Kanchibiya, you will find livestock farmers. When there is an outbreak, they do not even know where to go because the extension officers do not even have a bicycle and, sometimes, they do not even have the medication. The vaccines are not there. So, we are now forced to start thinking traditional indigenous practices of managing disease outbreaks, in this day and age.

Madam Speaker, there is a need for us to strengthen farmer outreach strategies aimed at enhancing farmer awareness, participation and co-operation, not just at the very beginning, but throughout the whole process, and then we need to widen the vaccination coverage. There is a need for us and this department in the ministry to carry out periodic animal census. From where I stand, the last animal census was carried out in the year 2018, unless there has been another national census which has been carried out. If we cannot take stock, then we are still playing ping-pong with a very critical ministry.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, allow me to make a clarion call that what the ministry needs, as priority, is not additional funding. What the ministry or department needs is a complete overhaul and a change of mindset, and then we can talk about putting up more resources. We cannot put new wine in old wine skin.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

No quorum in the House.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the Whips are not doing well because most of the time, they are late, as they are now. They are not in the House. I do not know what is happening in this meeting because starting from last week, we have continued reporting late.

While we are revising the Standing Orders, is this something we can think about? Otherwise, it does not show a good picture that we are always late. Can the Whips from both sides, please, do their work, although they are not here? Thank you.

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me, on behalf of the people of Chembe, the opportunity to add their voice on the debate on this important Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, many hon. Members who have debated on this Motion have echoed very important issues and put a lot of emphasis on the provision of veterinary services. Now, I want to remind ourselves: What are the benefits that come with veterinary services? These services, we should view them as, one, sources of wealth creation, two, sources of employment that is sustainable and, three, sources of food security. At the same time, they trickle down to poverty reduction, and this poverty reduction is not at individual level alone. It goes from individual level to community level and eventually to national level, hence the importance of these services.

Madam Speaker, many are the times that we have focused on other areas and forgotten about this area of the provision of veterinary services, and have not realised these benefits that I have mentioned. Mostly, when we want to improve these services in question, we do not look at their budget, just as the report has said. The budget towards these services is very low. We need to do something. When you look at the statistics that are showing in your report, you will find that there is more that needs to be done. The dip tanks, we can say, are not something to talk about. The laboratories which are supposed to be used are not something to talk about. When you go into your report, your Committee did a very good job because it even put pictorial illustrations to show what is on the ground. It is in this House where we approve the Budget. It is important that we increase this budget line.

Madam Speaker, the other issue which your report has talked about is the staff levels, that is, human resource, which is critical. Just as my elder brother, Hon. Kamboni, debated, the staff is very low and we have concentrated more on extension services. Yes, it is good to have extension services, but we have not utilised enough our School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Zambia (UNZA).

Madam Speaker, the number of students who are graduating as veterinary doctors from the University of Zambia is low. Why can we not utilise the school in full capacity by making sure that we take a deliberate policy of using our bursaries to enrol enough veterinary medicine students towards these services. My brother illustrated that in these services, it is the doctors that follow the patient and not the other way. However, we have not done well in this area, hence these lapses.

Madam Speaker, you will find that if we improve on our staff, as your report recommended, we will cushion this gap that has existed over time.

Madam Speaker, in terms of infrastructure, it is very difficult to even recognise offices for our officers. When we talk about the laboratories, I think they are supposed to be decentralised. My people in Chembe want to start keeping these animals, but they cannot because of the lack of these services. How do you start when you do not have the services required? I urge the hon. Minister to look into that.

Madam Speaker, we have got very good wet lands in Chembe, but we do not have these services. How do I even start telling my people to venture in livestock when there are no necessary services? So, it is prudent that we improve on this aspect.

Madam Speaker, it has now even led to drawing a line for some places. You will find that there are only certain areas which are able to sustain livestock while in other areas, it is difficult. Even transporting is also a problem. It is just prudent that we look into these issues.

Madam Speaker, lastly, it is important that human and animal health start moving in tandem. What we are doing in the human health area is what we should do it in animal health because of the benefits that we can accrue as a nation.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I support the report.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, let me thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion for the job well done. Let me also thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate. This is a Motion I have been waiting for to add a few words.

Madam Speaker, let me also thank Hon. Kamboni for the well delivered speech to this Parliament. Let me adopt his words as mine.

Madam Speaker, this is a ministry where everything is inadequate. There are inadequate laboratories, testing facilities, infrastructure for disease control management. There is illegal movement of livestock and a lack of outreach programmes for farmers resulting into the lack of co-operation from farmers.

Madam Speaker, if you look at all these things, they are problems we need to sort out. When you look at the issue which was brought up by Hon. Kamboni – it is what I want to talk about – this country – it is good I have been speaking to the hon. Minister– is the only country where a disease will break out in Lusaka, in the Central Province and in the Southern and it be will dealt, and the animals will still be exported and sold.

Mr Chewe crossed the Floor.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, you are disturbing the Chair. You are not supposed to pass in between the Chair and the hon. Member on the Floor. Please, do not do that next time.

Hon. Member for Nyimba, continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, from 1964, or let me just say since the inception of human kind, we in the Eastern Province know how to keep animals. What has happened is that we cannot grow our numbers. The reason is very simple. It is because we can only trade within the Eastern Province. We cannot trade outside the Eastern Province. What is it that we have done?

Madam Speaker, we have people who graduate from the University of Zambia, and a good number of them. However, we have failed to find a solution to a disease we do not know. How is it possible that I can buy an animal from Zimbabwe and it comes into Zambia without a problem, but I cannot go to Namwala and get the animals from there to Nyimba. This is a question we should be asking ourselves. Where is the problem? If we are patriotic enough, as Zambians, to see to it that this country starts – you know, it is very discouraging that we take a big stock of animals – I am not trying to underrate my colleagues from the Northern Province. However, when we get a big chunk of animals into Kanchibiya or Lupososhi, these people will braai the animals.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, they cannot keep animals. We cannot take the same stock into the Eastern Province. Truthfully speaking, I am not even joking, what are we doing about this? The hon. Minister needs to leave a legacy in this ministry. I know the hon. Minister knows the history of a soldier who was keeping a slab without knowing what was on it.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

There is an indication for a point of order. Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, what is your point order?

A point of order is raised

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I reluctantly rise on this very important point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65. I am trying to put head and tail to the discourse of the hon. Member on the Floor. Is he in order to scandalise the people from the north? I am also speaking on behalf of the Vice-President.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: We have the Mbesuma Breeding Centre where we are having animals bred so that the people of the Northern Province can be looking after animals. Is he in order to insinuate that all we do is braai, when he has not even shared any of his animals with anyone of us?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I am sure that statement was on a lighter note, unless he joined in the braiing in the Northern Province at some point. I am sure he just wanted to make people in the House laugh.

The hon. Member for Nyimba, please, continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, we have another problem, which is inadequate infrastructure for disease control.

Madam Speaker, this is a ministry that can construct a dip tank, but not use it. I will give the hon. Minister a very practical example of a well-done dip tank in Nyimba. It has never worked and has never been commissioned. It is now a church. Why? The officers we have in the ministry, and not – in fact, the doctor that the ministry has is a ‘superman.’ The man works, but he has no support from the hierarchy. The man works. If you give him a vehicle, he will go and attend to the problem. He will go a 100 kilometres from the Central Business District (CBD) to attend to a problem and bring answers for you. He is a superman, but the support from the hierarchy in Lusaka is not there. Surely, how can we spend such kind of money on project and cannot commission it for it to work? For now, to rehabilitate what has been destroyed will need a colossal sum of money. These are the things we should be looking at as a ministry.

Madam Speaker, I will take you to page 12 on inadequate extension services. The biggest problem we have is that camp officers have all moved away from their camps and sitting in the CBDs. The reason is very simple. It is because they have no support. How do you keep somebody 20 or 30 kilometres from the CBD and cannot supply not even a single syringe or medicine, nothing. He just becomes one of us, villagers. These are the things we need to start changing.

Madam Speaker, this is an industry with good money. It is an industry where we can make a fortune out of. Everyone here can be rich from this industry. There are very few who, naturally, cannot keep animals. I know it is difficult if you cannot keep animals. However, for us who keep animals, it is very possible that everyone can make a fortune out of them.

Interruptions

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, in addition, I also propose to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development that for us, who can keep animals, just like you are buying vehicles for police officers – I know this will not augur well with some of the Parliamentarians –ambulances and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects monitoring vehicles, you can also buy for veterinary services because this is business. These are the people who are going to help us.

Madam Speaker, on the CDF, we are submitting now to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development that we can have sprayers because we might not have money to do the dip tanks so that we can, at least, protect our animals. Now, the biggest question we have is: Why can we not bring animals from Nyimba, in the Eastern Province into Lusaka when it is easy for Lusaka to wipe out all the pigs, bring in a new breed, develop it and ‘export’ it to the Eastern Province? Why? This is the thing that we should understand. The hon. Minister must make a legacy that in the next six months, we can ‘export’ animals.

Madam Speaker, we have given money to twenty youths to keep pigs. The gross domestic product for Nyimba cannot support that production. So, we need to export those animals into Lusaka.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, let me start by appreciating the mover of the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Land and Natural Resources on the Effectiveness of the Department of Veterinary Services in Combating Livestock Disease in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, for us in Mbabala, when others see T-bone here in Lusaka, we see our insurance, economic value and social safeguard for our lives. So, it is risk management for us in keeping cattle and ensuring that our livestock is doing well.

Madam Speaker, may I begin by appreciating the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock and his team. I mentioned earlier, I think, last week, that we had received one or two veterinary officers and a motor cycle. That is the way to go. I have also seen in the budget that when we check from 2018 to date, the total allocation for 2022 alone beat the entire four years put together, from 2018 to 2021. That shows that the New Dawn Government has come to change this sector. It has come to serve us and ensure that our livestock is protected. Therefore, it means money is beginning to trickle in now and we must start getting the services correctly.

Madam Speaker, I will ride on an issue which was raised by one of the previous debaters. There is an issue of economic disease versus management diseases. I also want to push on the fact that, whilst understanding that aspect, we need to do away with that for us to eradicate the diseases because the diseases we face in Mbabala are sometimes comingled. Of course, we have a lot of tick borne diseases, lump skin and all those, but we have lost animals in almost all the wards; Chilalamtambo, Macha, Simabubi and Kabanze. We have lost animals everywhere. Just as another hon. Member debated, people are losing thirty animals and remaining with three or four. As I mentioned earlier, that is taking away our insurance, economic value and the like. Therefore, let the Department of Veterinary Services and the ministry change the policy to eradicate every disease as opposed to just focusing on economic diseases. A disease is a disease, anyway, because it is going to kill our animals. So, let us tackle all the diseases and move away from that.

Madam Speaker, with that said and emphasised, I also want to talk about the various Acts. I saw that the various pieces of legislation have lacunas that must be dealt with. The Animal Health Act No. 27 of 2010 lacks on regulations to enforce stock movement control. There is a lack of interpretation of the law in that area. The Veterinary Act No. 45 of 2010 is also not functional in terms of regulations. We still have problems in the Animal Identification Act No. 28 of 2010. Therefore, these Acts need to be reworked and brought to this House so much that we can close the gaps and begin to offer quality services.

Madam Speaker, issues of staffing, indeed, are affecting our people. Just the other week, I was in Nalube area of my constituency in Chilalantambo Ward. They do not have an extension officer. In Mutanga Ward, there is no extension officer. Many other wards, like Kabimba, need extension officers. So, we need the staffing. The human resource is out there. With the increased budgetary allocation, the hon. Minister should ensure that we recruit Extension Officers so that we can cover all the camps in the country, particularly, in Mbabala Constituency. These are essential people who must live in the camps so that they are accessible to our people. Our people must access them at whatever time they need to talk to them.

Madam Speaker, the other issue of transport must be dealt with to ensure that they have motorbikes and be accessible to our people. Issues of funding, I have mentioned that already. There are issues of vaccines which I wish to also talk about. We have a vaccine centre which must be funded to produce vaccines for us. Let us ensure that we deal with that matter to ensure that we produce local vaccines.

Madam Speaker, Mwachipapa in Choma is supposed to be the largest research centre in livestock in the region. That centre is dilapidated and almost not well funded. We wish to call for the revamping of Mwachipapa Research Centre to ensure that it continues with animal breeding and other programmes that will boast our livestock. Similarly, we have the Chitongo Livestock and Tse-tse Fly Centre on the Choma/Namwala road. We want to call for support to the Chitongo Centre so that it can help us control Tse-tse flies. Tse-tse flies from Namwala where we have a game park reach people in Mbabala, and it is common to be beaten by Tse-tse flies when you are herding cattle. I was once a victim when herding cattle in my village. So, we want to ensure that this Chitongo Livestock and Tse-tse Fly Centre is dealt with.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Munsanje: Wena ma Lozi, keep quiet!

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: Sho, ba Lozi, amuumune.

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I was talking about the Chitongo Livestock and Tse-tse Fly Control Centre.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon Member, can you, please, interpret what you said.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, I was just telling my brothers to keep quiet so that we can properly vaccinate them against tsetse flies.

Laughter

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, also, on the vast camps, can the hon. Minister demarcate them. Some of them are too large. We need them to be more effective. They should be much smaller so that it is easier to reach all the farmers.

Madam Speaker, the issue of dip tanks is alarming. When we check the Southern Province, we have 192 dip tanks which are not functional against 106 that are functional. This is alarming. We need to go back to the old strategy of ensuring that we have dip tanks everywhere that are functional everywhere. Dip sprays can be mobile. So, I urge the hon. Minister to invest in dip sprays because they are mobile. We can move them around in Maliindi, Lugwaalo and Kaliindi. We can put up one and move it around and all the farmers will benefit. Those are some of the strategies we should put in place.

Madam Speaker, we should also invest in the Zambia Institute of Animal Health (ZIAH). We want to use some of our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) money to educate our children at ZIAH to learn animal husbandry. Can he, please, work on that college so that it can offer skills in animal husbandry to our children who want to be sponsored using the CDF. It will be a game changer for us to have many more equipped youths in our communities. For us in Mbabala, it will be a game changer. We can have as many children as possible learn at ZIAH in animal husbandry then come back to help in the communities. They can also be businessmen and women in the communities supporting our farmers in looking after cattle.

Madam Speaker, I think these are some of the issues that I needed to add in support of this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The last hon. Member to debate is the hon. Member for Dundumwezi.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate the report on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, let me state that, indeed, the livestock sector is very important, and if we harnessed it, we would find that it would drive many people from poverty into living a better life.

Madam Speaker, today, a steer in Dundumwezi is costing about K10,000. This is why we say that we need to look after livestock very well.

Madam Speaker, let me inform you that in Dundumwezi, we are almost living without livestock officers. Dundumwezi has eight wards and for those, we only have two centres and that is not helping.

Madam Speaker, there are people who still castrate their animals using burdizzo. A burdizzo is an old way of castrating animals. Why do they use burdizzo? The reason is very simple; because we do not have officers in our rural areas.

Madam Speaker, there are people who still dehorn their livestock using hot bars. In some instances, animals die because of the way they dehorn them. In this era, we have a better way of dehorning animals, but because livestock officers are not there, people are not given the modern technology of looking after livestock.

Madam Speaker, yes, we have a number of dip tanks, but when you check the way they dip or mix the chemicals – Dip is a very strong chemical. If you just pour it in a dip tank, it will just settle at the bottom. Many people think they have put the chemical there and they will be dipping their animals, but it will not be effective.

What we want is for the hon. Minister let his livestock officers be closer to their farmers. Most of them have deserted their constituencies. Some of them live in towns. So, you will discover that even when you want to go and see them, in most instances, they are not there.

Madam Speaker, why is it that when we look at the disease prevalence along the line of rail, maybe, with commercial farmers, we rarely hear of them losing their animals? Normally, the people who are suffering are those who are just starting up. We need to ensure that we employ more veterinary officers.

Madam Speaker, secondly, we have about 4 million goats in this country, just to help my friends from the North-Western Province who are keeping goats. They have not ventured into cattle, like my big brother, Hon. Lufuma, who is still keeping goats at that age.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, I want to advise the hon. Minister …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Please, do not involve the hon. Minister in your debate. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Much obliged, Madam Speaker. I want to advise the hon. Minister – why is it that even when we have 4 million goats in Zambia – how many dip tanks do we have for goats? If he came to Dundumwezi, he would not find – his friend never left any dip tank for goats. I would like the hon. Minister to ensure that he comes up with a policy to ensure that small livestock are also provided for in terms of dipping.

Madam Speaker, you can be dipping your cattle, but as long as you do not dip your goats, definitely, you will not eradicate the ticks. These ticks are the ones that are killing our animals. So, can the hon. Minister ensure we start constructing dip tanks for small livestock. The only thing that I want to praise my hon. Colleagues on the other side is the system they started of decentralising brand marks and actualised it. I think that is a plus on the hon. Minister because those brand marks became so expensive. For example, a person from Kalabo would travel all the way to Lusaka just to come and apply a brand mark which was costing K2 then. So, I think the hon. Minister is on the right trajectory.

Madam Speaker, when asking people to go and construct dip tanks, please, they should not just pick up any builder. I have heard that there are dip tanks in Nyimba ...

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Sing’ombe: It is true. They built. You see, I cannot even describe them. You can drive through using your land cruiser.

Mr Nkombo: They are dip tanks?

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes.

Madam Speaker, a dip tank is supposed to be, if it is so big, maybe about 120 to 130 metres and not a dip tank which is about three metres. What animal do you want to dip? So, these dip tanks, actually, wasted a lot of Government resources. So, the hon. Minister should ensure that he re-demarcates those camps and that officers are given transport. In some cases, they have transport, but no fuel.

Madam Speaker, it is my request that the hon. Minister looks at that aspect of demarcating and ensures that small scale farmers like my hon. Colleagues in the North-Western Province have dip tanks for small livestock like goats.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity given to me to respond to the Committee’s observations and recommendations on the effectiveness of the Department of Veterinary Services in combating livestock diseases in this country.

Madam Speaker, let me start by saying that the New Dawn Administration realises the importance of this sector in terms of driving the economy of this country.

Madam Speaker, let me appreciate some of the observations and recommendations that have been made and, indeed, acknowledge the low funding levels the Department of Veterinary Services has been receiving as compared to the requirements for effective and efficient livestock disease control.

I highlight, Madam Speaker, that we acknowledge the concern and accept the recommendation that funding must be increased. However, let me also state that, by this report, funding to this important sector has remarkably improved as compared to what it was two years go.

When the New Dawn Administration assumed office, Madam Speaker, it commenced steps to improve funding and the operations of this important this department. I am sure most of my colleagues in this august House can attest to the fact that the Department of Veterinary Services is not the way it was two years ago. There are some improvements in some areas.

Madam Speaker, some hon. Members raised an issue of re-demarcating veterinary camps. Indeed, this is well noted, but I inform the House that veterinary camps were established in the colonial days and are, indeed, very large for a single veterinary assistant to man. Now, to reduce the size of these camps, my ministry, has re-demarcated them and the Management Development Division of the Cabinet approved the re-demarcations and all we are waiting for now is the Treasury authority for us to start employing new veterinary assistants in this submission. So, that is the hope I am giving to my colleagues. We are in the process of looking at those camps.

Madam Speaker, let me also state in the same direction that, as the House may be aware, with decentralisation in place, we are trying to encourage local authorities to also start looking into checking on these camps and taking the mandate to re-demarcate some of those that have not been considered. So, through decentralisation, I believe that local authorities will pick it up from that level.

Madam, let me also give hope that extension officers in this department are important. What we have done, as a ministry, is to recruit 470 extension staff, which we did last year, and the process of recruiting is on. We intend to recruit 300 extension staff. This is an ongoing programme. So, I believe and trust that the concerns that have been raised in terms of the staff to provide extension services is important.

Madam Speaker, let me also give hope to my colleagues that they can also support us by giving us information on the few staff that we have deployed in the camps, but have decided to go and stay in towns.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: If hon. Members can help us by co-ordinating such kind of information, then we will be on the right trajectory to correct good things that can help this industry to move forward.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of laboratories, let me state that under the Patriotic Front (PF) regime, the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock embarked on the construction of seven regional laboratories. This is one of the projects that we have found was really a disaster. We have inherited the projects which were a disaster.

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

Mr Chikote: We have decided, as the New Dawn Administration, to start completing these projects so that our farmers – as hon. Members stated that it is really difficult to send samples to Lusaka. So, our aim is to decentralise to make sure that we have laboratories in all our regions. As I speak, we have already started operationalising the laboratories in Choma, Mongu and Chipata. So, we are in the process to make sure that the Department of Veterinary Services is decentralised to our places.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members also raised the issue of dip tanks. Dip tanks are important, especially where management diseases are concerned. Therefore, let me state to my colleagues that whilst we appreciate their proposals that we have to relook at the policy, currently, there are some diseases that are under management level. They go to a farmer to take the responsibility. For such diseases, it is the farmer’s responsibility to look into until we review and look at the new policies to amend. However, let me also tell my colleagues that some of these issues failed in the past because the Government could not have the capacity to facilitate such kinds of programmes.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the issue of enhancing the animal identification and traceability system. My ministry has been working on this developmental programme of animal identification and traceability system. I am pleased to inform this august House that the system is now developed and ready for rolling-out. However, there are a number of matters that need to be undertaken before it can be implemented. So, I assure my colleagues that the animal identification and traceability system is a work in progress and we are enhancing it to make sure that the issues that the hon. Member mentioned, such as the issues of the Policy of 2018, are being looked into. We are relooking into the policy framework to make sure we bring amendments to the old Act.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of transport, we have done our best. From the time we took over office, we have purchased 332 motor cycles for our extension officers. We have also purchased ten motor vehicles …

Hon. Govenment Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: … which we have already distributed to all our provincial centres.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, we are in the process of purchasing 600 motor cycles …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: … to support our extension officers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, let me to give hope to my colleagues so that they can help us to inform our farmers that we have also purchased eighty motor vehicles which are going to be distributed to districts to support our staff.

Madam Speaker: Madam Speaker, I also want to state that …

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, wind up. You have run out of time.

Mr Chikote: Much obliged, Madam Speaker. On the issue to do with market, we are in the process to make sure disease control in this country is graded on the required standards so that our farmers are able to trade freely wherever they feel they can trade their products from livestock. The moving of animals from one province to another is an issue that we are going to look at.

Madam Speaker, as I finish, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, hon. Minister!

Mr Chikote: Yes, Madam Speaker. What I can assure the House is that all the concerns that the hon. Members have raised and all the concerns that have been raised in the report are going to be taken seriously and improved from where they are to a better standard.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mabonga: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. I sincerely thank all the hon. Members of Parliament that have debated on the report and supported it. I take this opportunity to thank the hon. Minister for the responseA he has provided. After everything is said and done, we can only hope for the best.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agree to.

REPORT OF THE ZAMBIAN DELEGATION TO THE THIRTEENTH ORDINARY SESSION OF THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY OF THE FORUM OF PARLIAMENTS OF THE MEMBER STATES OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON THE GREAT LAKES REGION (FP-ICGLR)

(Debate resumed)

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to conclude my debate. However, before I do, with you indulgence, permit me to place on record that we, as your Whips, do not take pleasure in seeing delay in the forming of quorum. On behalf of my Colleagues, the Whips, we normally come into the House last to ensure that the quorum is first formed before we get into the Chamber. So, we shall continue to ensure that we are starting on time.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Well noted.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Madam Speaker

Madam Speaker, yesterday, I was just congratulating our colleagues, the delegates that attended the 13th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (FP-ICGLR), in Juba, who were elected to different positions, including the mover of the Motion.

As we congratulate them, Madam Speaker, we must deliberately find a way of capacitating them because the Forum of Parliamentarians (FP) is recognised in the structure of the conference. However, we have not seen more of their involvement in the conflict resolution mechanism of the conference. To participate in conflict resolution, it does not only take wisdom, but a bit of capacity building. So, we want to showcase something as the hosts. We congratulate you, Madam Speaker, as you will be chairing the Fourteenth Plenary Session, next year. We want to showcase something. How will we do that? By deliberately setting aside some resources to be channelled to capacitating our colleagues, they are just a few of them, as a delegation so that they can participate in some of the conflict management programmes effectively.

Madam Speaker, I know, for example, that under the Southern African Development Community (SADC), we, as Zambia, are now chairing, for the second time, the Defence and Security Committee (DSC) which is at the centre stage of managing conflicts and elections in the region. However, you have seen the instability in the Great Lakes. It requires concerted efforts. As I said yesterday, Parliamentarians are at the apex of democracy. Most of the conflicts that we deal with are to do with elections and leadership. That is why it is regrettable that this conference was being held at the backdrop of escalated tensions in the Republic of Sudan and the unsettled conflict within South Sudan.

Madam Speaker, going forward, we must not just have a presence. Yes, we can send delegates, but sending delegates just to go and participate in the Plenary Session and nothing beyond, does not add value. So, we now have a privilege, as the host of the Fourteenth Plenary Session. We want to see that as you hand over the chairmanship, there are some deliverables to put on the table for having participated in some of the conflict resolutions and results shown.

Madam Speaker, the most important thing is that as you capacitate your members of the delegation, they must go with peaceful minds. One cannot participate in peace resolutions when one is at conflicted. So, we encourage our colleagues who have been elected to various positions of the Committees under this conference to be proactive and represent us well because when they are doing this work, it is not about them. It is about the institution they represent, which is the National Assembly of Zambia. Zambia has been known as a beacon of peace in the SADC region. So, let us go a step further and showcase what we are able to do in contributing to peace because anything that happens in the Great Lakes region affects us directly and indirectly. We have been a host to so many people that have been uprooted from their homes as refuges for a number of years.

So, we are praying that even as our neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) goes to elections, the hon. Minister of Defence and his colleagues who form part of the Organ Troika will be proactive because that is the most delicate task they are going to have. They are going to be in Zimbabwe. So, this is critical. We want them to interact with the delegation of the Great Lakes region. The DRC, as you may see, is part of the Great Lakes region and also a member of SADC. So, the hon. Minister should, please, find a way of interfacing with our delegates and make sure that as they participate in peace resolution efforts, they are well informed and well capacitated.

Madam Speaker, it is not so much to ask. It will not be too much of a budget, but, please, let us see our colleagues participate effectively.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. Tembo (Feira): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to add my voice to the debate on the Motion to adopt the report. The report raises pertinent issues, and from the beginning, I just want to re-echo the fact that without peace there cannot be economic development and social order. Therefore, it is important that this country continues to play the role that our forefathers, from independence, have played to pacify the region, and Africa as a whole.

Now, Madam Speaker, the great lakes region presents a situation of violence and instability, which actually affects us. Other than that, we, also, as a country, from the historical position need to create peace in the region. It is important that as Parliamentarians, we take these issues seriously. Therefore, the role of Zambia in peacekeeping in States within the SADC region and Common Market for East and Southern Africa (COMESA) cannot be under estimated. Therefore, we call upon hon. Members to ensure that we acquaint ourselves with these important issues.

Madam Speaker, the new paradigm is that countries should group themselves in regional bodies and speak with one voice, and, indeed, the main or ultimate goal is to attain economic development. Now, where there is no peace, it would be difficult to attain that. So, it is very important that, as a country, we take the leading role.

Obviously, Zambia has enjoyed peace over the years, but we cannot even take that for granted. Being a beacon of peace creates an opportunity to be an example to others. I think that at the international level, we will be able to present ourselves as a country that is a leader in peace issues.

Madam Speaker, having looked at the report I realised that there were a number of resolutions. Although some of them were made twenty or thirty years, they have not been implemented. It is now time that Africa woke up, and Zambia took a leading role in ensuring that all these regional resolutions are actually implemented. I have been informed, through the media, that our President will be part of a seven-member States that will go to deal with the Ukraine-Russian violence.

Dr Mwanza: Quality!

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, I urge the Executive to ensure that we look at conflict within the SADC region in like manner. As the previous speaker said, the Patriotic Front (PF) Whip, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) conflict has always affected us. The conflict in Rwanda and the Eastern Congo have always affected us because we receive refugees, and all the issues relating to the conflicts in those countries.

As I conclude, Madam Speaker, I just want to say that, as country, we need to play a bigger role in African affairs than issues relating to Europe, and other parts of the world. I am not saying that we should not, however, we need to be seen to play this role in African affairs. I am saying this because during the last SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security meeting in Namibia coincided with the crowing of the British chief or whatever they call him. We went to the crowning ceremony instead of attending a regional meeting of which we will be taking over chairmanship. For me, that undermined our role in regional issues as well as our peace keeping role. Therefore, I emphasise that it is now time to be practical, as country, and ensure that we put issues concerning Africa and peace before other matters.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The issue of the Forum of Parliamentarians of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (FP-ICGLR) is quite an important regional organisation. It was founded purely on three objectives. Of course, one among them is capacity building of member States. It also looked at the implementation of the United Nations (UN) resolutions, and article two of the same gives the mandate to the organisation to come up with sub-committees that will ensure that the objectives that this organisation was set for are squarely met.

Madam Speaker, allow me to look at the committee that is in charge of democracy and good governance. This is the committee that is entrusted to look at the human rights of women, children and vulnerable people. However, the question is: Are we are achieving this? The answer would be yes and no. Yes, in the sense that meetings are called for people to meet. Resolutions are passed and speeches are read. However, going by the set objectives, nothing tangible so far that one can say has been achieved, and that is a minus.

This organisation, Madam Speaker, is well set to ensure that there is peace and stability on the continent. However, the manner in which issues are managed leaves much to be desired. When you look at the resolutions and the laws that were formulated by this organisation to execute and ensure that people’s rights are respected, there is nothing that has been done, yet people from member States have continued to meet. Then, the question would be: Where is the problem? The problem would be amongst the nations that contribute or make up what we call the great lakes region.

Madam Speaker, when we look at individual states, they have failed to attain the tenets of good governance. Now, it would be very difficult to expect member States to reach consensus on issues that affect their operations in that for them, as individuals, the element of democracy does not exist.

Madam Speaker, we have resolved that Africa should be able to attend to its own problems or disputes. Member States, for instance, subscribe to African unity. However, the same member States did not ratify the African Court. That, already, is a minus because what we expected was that the members of the African Union (AU) should also be members of the African Court. Why are member States refusing to ratify such conventions? It is purely because they do not want to be superintended over or when there are issues in their countries, to be resolved through committees under this organisation. So, the elements that have caused all these problems we are going through are the attitudes.

Madam Speaker, it is important that our leaders in individual countries that are members of this forum, first of all, ensure that issues that border on good governance are attained within their territories, which, for three-quarters of them, is a minus. They are not there. It is our hope that when our committees have an opportunity to appear before this forum, it is not, per se, who heads what, it should be what the law says in line with the attainment of the tenets of good governance that we are talking about.

We are aware, Madam Speaker, that the great lakes, as previous speakers indicated, is a region that is engulfed with a lot of issues that need to be sorted out. So, we want to advise the people who are actually members of these committees to ensure that when fora are called, it should not be about who is leading what but what is required of us so that these issues that are perpetually being experienced in these countries can come to an end.

Madam Speaker, leaders need to strengthen their institutions in their countries. There are countries where, before judgment is passed, there is a lot of interference from the Executive who may be part of the people passing that judgement and not, per se, the judiciary, and issues are there. This goes back to the way we have framed our constitutions and how we have wanted to remain in power in perpetuity.

Madam Speaker, it is my belief that we need a new generation of leadership that understands the tenets of good governance that will realise that it is out of those that our countries will be called democratic States. Otherwise, fora and conferences will be called, yet nothing will be attained, and this will be a cost to Africa as a whole.

So, we need to abide by Article 52 of the United Nations that encourages regional groupings to actually learn to start resolving issues within their regions. However, like I said before, to do this requires good attitude from the people who are managing these individual countries and making these groupings. If we do not do that, believe me not, year in year out we will he speaking the same thing, yet nothing will be achieved. So, the issues of attitude, ownership and responsiveness ought to be played by the people who are actually entrusted to run affairs of these groupings.

Madam Speaker, it is my hope that as we proceed, colleagues will ensure that the flag is lifted by ensuring that good governance per state is actually exercised, the way it is being enjoyed here in Zambia. We have seen how our institutions have been strengthened. We have seen how decisions are made by those organs that have been entrusted to do that. It is from there that, proudly, we can say that if we can manage to resolve our own problems within our territories then we can participate at the regional or continental level.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Minister comes in, I call upon the hon. Member for Kabwe Central.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for according the people of Kabwe Central to voice out on the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the Thirteenth Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (FP-ICGLR), and I congratulate your Committee for its added portfolios and various sub committees where they were given positions.

Madam Speaker, I agree that, as parliamentarians, we play a great role in maintaining peace and security in our country. The fact that we will soon be hosting the conference and Madam Speaker will be chairing in the region is gratifying.

Madam Speaker, much has been said by my fellow hon. Members of Parliament on the issues surrounding the Great Lakes Region. I want to zero in my debate on us as Members of Parliament and as Zambians on the role we should play to keep peace and security in our country.

Madam Speaker, as parliamentarians, representing people from various constituencies, we play a major role in keeping peace in our country. I have observed, with gratitude, that when we are not in Parliament, when we go out for tours and when we go for tea breaks, we relate very well. There is no division and we are at peace. There is really brotherhood and sisterhood, which is very gratifying. However, sometimes, when we come into the House, there are too many sparks. That does not sit well with the people we represent in the constituencies. At other times, we are visited by young people in this Parliament, but the way we relate is sometimes not very good. So, we need to search ourselves that we are torch bearers and are the ones who can improve the peace in this country by making sure that we are at peace all the time.

Madam Speaker, for the fact that we will be chairing this conference, we need to be exemplary to other regions and countries which are not at peace and show that Zambia, indeed, is a peaceful country. We need to guard the peace that we have in this country.

Madam Speaker, I congratulate our President because he has preached peace. Our hon. Ministers have shown, by example, that they want to work with us despite where we are coming from or which party we are coming from. They have really tried to do that.

Interruptions

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, for sure, let me just cite one example. When the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts was distributing sports attire, he gave everyone. He also gave us the liberty to go and brand them the way we wanted. He did not think of what we were going to say. So, this is the peace and unity that we want in this country. Let us show the people out there that there is unity and love here, so that they also can show love, where we are coming.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of Order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I reluctantly rise on points order.

Hon. Opposition Member: Mwale akana ama feeder roads.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the report we have on the Floor is very clear, and we are encouraged, as hon. Members, to acquaint ourselves with the contents of the reports that come on the Floor so that we do not veer off, as guided by Standing Order No. 65 (1)(a), which talks about the content of speech. Is the hon. Member for Kabwe Central in order to relegate this debate to the distribution of sports attire which has been done? I think my hon. Colleague from Shangombo, who has been here for a long time, knows how those have been distributed in the past. Those of us who have been here long enough will confirm that it has been the same as we saw it. Is she in order to reduce this debate, which is very critical, to the issues of how we share jerseys and footballs?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you so much. Let me just guide the hon. Member on the Floor. I have gone through the report and I did not see anywhere it talks about balls and jerseys.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If you can, please, hon. Member, just stick to the report so that we can wind up on it today. Hon. Member for Kabwe Central, please, be focused. We are looking at time.

You may continue.

Ms Halwiindi: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker. I said, “let me give an example,” and in the objectives –

Interruptions

Ms Halwiindi: Can I say something?

Madam Speaker, am I protected?

Hon. Members: Continue Madam.

Ms Halwiindi: I said in the objectives –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, can you, please, just be focused. Let us move on. We are running behind time.

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, in the objectives that we were given by the mover of the Motion, he talked of the role of Parliamentarians in keeping peace and security, and I am zeroing in that as Parliamentarians, we have a role to do that.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi: I was showing an example of brotherhood and sisterhood working together. When are working together here, the people we are representing in our constituencies are being shown love and they also are supposed to love each other and unite as a country. That was the illustration I was giving.

Madam Speaker, let me also say that, as Parliamentarians, policies that we make and what the Government has pronounced, we need to support. Once we do that, there will be development in our country. Once there is development in our country, our people will uphold democracy, and when democracy is upheld, people will make decisions not based on their empty tummies. They will be decisive as to who to put in offices. So, let us support each other to make sure that we develop this country. When we develop this country, there will be perpetual peace and we will be an example to other regions that are not at peace.

Madam Speaker, this is very important. As Parliamentarians, and as Zambians, we need to make sure that we uphold peace by what we do. We have to make sure that if there is anyone given an assignment to lead us, we support them. At a certain time, that policy will have an end and we are going to evaluate it. When we evaluate it, we will be able to see where we would have failed, and try another way.

So, please, let me say that – I am near the seconder and he is indicating to me that time is running. Please, let me debate also so that we make sure that there is peace.

From now onwards, we are going to be examples of peace bearers or torch bearers in this Parliament, like no other Parliament you have ever heard of. This will be an icon, the Zambian Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi: We are going to be chairing this region. So, we need to make sure that we are exemplary. The love that we show, I will repeat, outside there when we are at tea break, let it be shown now so that our people in our constituencies know that there is peace here and that we love each other despite the parties we belong to. That one should continue. I have seen this with a lot of concern. What happens when we are here? Do we want to show that we do not love each other, yet when we are outside, we show peace?

Madam Speaker, I wish I had time to continue to raise the other points I wanted to, but with these few words, I support the report.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I now call upon the hon. Minister of Defence.

Mr Lufuma’s Microphone was off.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma): I am so sorry, Madam Speaker, I did not enter my numbers.  Nevertheless, thank you for the opportunity to contribute one or two comments on the debate on the report that has been submitted by the delegation that went to the 13th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region that was held from 27^th March to 1^st April, 2023.

Madam Speaker, in the first instance, I appreciate the report that has been generated by your delegation and the hon. Members who constituted that delegation for representing us to the best of their abilities. I think they did a good job and need those commendations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, allow me to take on what the previous speaker was talking about, which is love. We need to love each other. Indeed, we have the responsibility to love each other. Once we love each other, this love is going to permeate other countries where we go and try and keep or preach peace. So, it is very important that we take her message seriously. We should start from here as we go outside.

Madam Speaker, this has been the case for Zambia since independence. The idea from Kenneth Kaunda (KK), may his soul rest in peace, was to engage ourselves in the freedom struggle, and we did. We were in the forefront. This has continued throughout, up to now. Our President is always talking about the concept that instability in one area is instability everywhere. This concept is not new. It has been there and we want to continue with it and consolidate it. So, by taking this delegation –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we want to listen to what the hon. Minister of defence is talking about. Please, let us maintain silence.

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. There are several resolutions, I think, in this report, and they are powerful resolutions and we take them seriously as a Government. We recognise that these resolutions have been churned out over a long time, and in one way or another, some have not received the seriousness that they deserve. From the point of view of this Government, we would like to assure the Great Lakes Region that we will support the peace processes in the region and in the Sudan, 100 per cent.

Madam Speaker, we also recognise, as members of the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC), that we have a responsibility over the Democratic Republic Congo (DR Congo). There is instability in the Eastern Congo and there is also instability which is brewing in Mozambique. Therefore, as we take the responsibility for the Chairmanship of the Organ Troika, we take it with all the seriousness that it deserves.

 

Madam Speaker, at this juncture, I thank the delegation for representing us adequately. I assure the delegation, Parliament and all hon. Members that we are 100 per cent in support of the resolutions that came up within this session.

Madam Speaker, I also take time to congratulate the Speaker and her delegation for having, under their belt, been chosen to facilitate and host the 14^th Session of the conference. This is an indication that we are in the premier league.

Hon. Members, I thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity to debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Brig. Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, I remain with few words, noting that the report has received overwhelming support. I thank all the hon. Members who contributed to the debate on this report and, indeed, the hon. Minister for the promise of support to the forum.

Madam Speaker, I am happy to note that all hon. Members understand the importance of security in whatever we do. Indeed, without security we cannot achieve.

Madam Speaker, allow me to just say that next year on our calendar, the task that we have to host the plenary session, as a Parliament, is so important. Therefore, it is important that all of us, hon. Members of Parliament and the staff of Parliament, give their best to ensure that we succeed. It is not only about the pride of this august House, but also the nation. Once we achieve, like we have achieved before, I think it will be a plus for all of us.

Madam Speaker, I am happy to hear that there will be support for all of us members in the forum to ensure that we continue attending those important meetings. Indeed, that is how it is supposed to be.

Madam Speaker, I end by just saying that as the forum comes to this country, and as our own Speaker, Madam Nelly Mutti, gets Chairmanship of the forum, it is an honour, really, to the Parliament of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I thank you very.

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1832 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 16^th June, 2023

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