Wednesday, 14th June, 2023

Wednesday, 14^thJune, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

PRESENCE OF PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM ST RAPHEAL’S SECONDARY SCHOOL IN LIVINGSTONE DISTRICT IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from St Rapheal’s Secondary School, in Livingstone District. On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

The Pupils in the Public Gallery rose.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. You may resume your seats.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker: I have indications for three matters of urgent public importance. Hon. Members, you are reminded to comply with the guidelines that have been given on raising issues relating to matters of urgent public importance.

MR SIMUMBA, HON. MEMBER FOR NAKONDE, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON THE SECURITY SITUATION IN NAKONDE

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this chance, on behalf of the good people of Nakonde, to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, the security situation in Nakonde is under threat. Not long ago, armed robbers robbed a businessman in broad daylight and went away with K4 million. In that incident, a stray bullet landed on an innocent person who later died. As I am speaking, another businessman is nursing gunshot wounds in the hospital. Today, another businessman has been robbed in Lusaka’s Kanyama Compound. The victim was strangled by seven unknown people, who went away with an undisclosed amount of money.

Madam Speaker, does the Government have any urgent measures that it is going to put in place, so that the people of Nakonde, including those who are going to trade there, can be safe.

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: My guidance to the hon. Member for Nakonde is that please, put in an urgent question and then the hon. Minister will respond to that question.

MR ANDELEKI, HON. MEMBER FOR KATOMBOLA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, MRS MASEBO, ON THE STATUS OF THE COVID-19 EPIDEMIC IN THE COUNTRY

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity given to the people of Katombola Constituency, through me, to raise a matter of urgent public importance. I rarely rise on urgent matters of public importance and mine is directed at our beloved hon. Minister, the hon. Minister of Health. This is about the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) situation in the country. Our people are asking whether there is an outbreak of COVID-19 or what the status is. In this regard, we are not able to guide our people correctly. It is on that particular basis that I raise this question.

Madam Speaker: There is news that instances of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) have increased and as Parliament, we need to be given guidance on how we are going to relate and conduct business. Further, we need to know what measures we need to take into account when we are conducting our business.

I was expected a statement to be made, to give us an update on the current status of COVID-19 in the country. However, since the hon. Member for Katombola has raised it as a matter of urgent public importance, the hon. Minister of Health can come back to the House on Friday this week to give us an update on the status of COVID-19 in the country, so that we take measures to protect ourselves.

I have seen that some people are now putting on masks. It is better not to lower our guard. Let us continue to protect ourselves as we wait for an update from the hon. Minister of Health.

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, MR MPOSHA, ON THE WATER CRISIS IN PETAUKE

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, on a matter of urgent public importance.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke, to raise a matter of urgent public importance. The matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation.

Madam Speaker, the people in Petauke Central Constituency, particularly in Nyika Ward, Showgrounds, Chimate, Sitambuli, Garden, Kanfinzi, Fairview and Anusa areas, have stayed for two weeks without water. This has made the people in my constituency miserable. As you know, water is life.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to keep quiet –

Madam Speaker: You are supposed to say, “I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.”

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: I am still coming to that.

Mr B. Mpundu: Naupya.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation in order to sit quietly when the people in my constituency are depending on the Government to be given water?

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence and thank you.

Madam Speaker: I believe that yesterday, issues of water were debated in the House following some questions that were asked to the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation. However, hon. Member for Petauke Central, that is a constituency-based question. So, put in a question which the hon. Minister will be able to answer.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Madam Speaker: I saw the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development in the House earlier on. He was here, but maybe, he thought we were going to take long on the matters of urgent public importance and stepped out.

Eng. Milupi entered the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: He is here now.

STATE OF THE ROADS IN NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCE

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, first of all, I apologise. As you have just said, I assumed that the matters of urgent public importance would take a bit of time. So, I had gone to look for my glasses. However, we are here now and I thank you for your indulgence.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to update the House and the nation on the state of roads in the North-Western Province, and efforts being made by the New Dawn Government in addressing the challenges faced by our people in the province.

Madam Speaker, this update follows a matter of urgent public importance raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency, Hon. Jay Emmanuel Banda, MP, on Friday, 9^th June,2023. In raising the matter of urgent public importance, the hon. Member stated as follows:

“Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central this opportunity to present a matter of urgent public importance under Standing Order l34. The matter is directed at the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. There was a serious accident yesterday between Kisasa and Mwinilunga and the victims were rushed to hospital. That road is a death trap.

Madam Speaker, the day before yesterday, when the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North asked about the road in Chama being worked on, the hon. Acting Minister of Local Government and Rural Development was very clear that we should take advantage of the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North is supposed to use.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House in order not to talk to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga to use the CDF to work on that road which is a death trap?

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance.”

Madam Speaker, in response to the matter of urgent public importance raised by the hon. Member, you guided as follows:

“Hon. Members, yesterday, I gave guidance on what matter qualifies to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. It must be widespread and be debatable. However, following the question which was based on the roads in the North-Western Province, there has been some discomfort about the state of roads in the North-Western Province and the response that the Government provided.

Maybe, just to give comfort to the people of the North-Western Province, the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House can come back to the House with a statement on Wednesday next week just to clarify the position of the Government on the state of these roads because the people of the North-Western Province need to be assured on what the Government is doing about these roads so that we can maintain some harmony in the country.”

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Petauke Central Constituency in raising his matter of urgent public importance made reference to a road traffic accident and the road as a ‘death trap’. I inform the House that preliminary investigations by the Zambia Police Service show a recording of a road traffic accident along that road on the material date, involving a pedestrian who was involved in a hit and run case. Police records indicate that the unknown driver hit the pedestrian around 0400 hours. The pedestrian sustained serious injuries and was admitted to Solwezi General Hospital. The police are still investigating the matter and we wish the victim a quick recovery.

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government under the able leadership of His Excellency, President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, recognises the critical contribution of a good road network and infrastructure to national development. Our road network facilitates the movement of goods and people, and supports productivity in key sectors of our economy such as agriculture, mining, manufacturing, commerce and tourism.

Madam Speaker, it is public knowledge that the New Dawn Government inherited a core road network that was already in a deplorable condition countrywide. An assessment by the Road Development Agency (RDA) indicates that 80 percent of the core road network requires immediate improvement and maintenance as it is in a poor condition and is deteriorating at an alarming rate.

Madam Speaker, this state of affairs is despite the previous Government borrowing heavily on account of investing in infrastructure, including roads. One begs the question: Where did all the borrowed money go to? Which roads were built with all that borrowed money which has left this country highly indebted?

Madam Speaker, just for illustration, as I speak, the citizens of Zambia are saddled with a debt of about US$25.4 billion. This equates on our population to each one of us, including babies born yesterday, owing US$1,272 each, which is equivalent to K24,142.

Madam Speaker, I wish to state the President’s commitment to taking development to all the ten provinces of this country. I have a message for the people of the North-Western Province, and, indeed, the rest of the country, that this Government is committed to addressing the challenges brought about by the poor road network. We are resolved and committed, even in the face of challenging fiscal conditions, to address the poor road network in order to support economic activity and social transformation.

Madam Speaker, allow me to now present the programmes that will be implemented in the road sector for the period 2023 to 2026 in the North-Western Province in terms of road rehabilitation, periodic road maintenance and road upgrading to bituminous standard.

Madam Speaker, on 12^thJanuary, 2023, Zambia and Angola signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on the construction of the Zambia/Angola Connection Road via the Jimbe Border. Following the signing of the MoU, construction firms from Angola and Zambia have expressed interest to submit proposals to work on the stretch of the road on the Zambian side from Jimbe to Mutanda via Mwinilunga. The Government has since constituted a steering committee of Permanent Secretaries (PSs) to speed up the implementation of this MoU.

Madam Speaker, I wish to reassure the House and the people of the North-Western Province that the Government is actively engaged on this project, and once it goes to implementation, it will improve considerably the road infrastructure in that province.

Madam Speaker, the Government has received commitments of support amounting to US$250 million for the development of the Lobito Corridor that will connect the western shores of Angola to the borders of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Zambia. The development of the Lobito Corridor will connect Zambia through the North-Western Province to the port of Lobito on the Atlantic Ocean. This will offer a shorter route to the sea for exports of minerals and agricultural output from the North-Western, and the rest of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the current poor state of the 343km road from Mutanda turnoff to Jimbe Border via Ikeleng’i, especially the section after Kisasa to Mwinilunga, inhibits smooth usage of the road as it increases the occurrences of road traffic accidents, lengthens the time taken to traverse the road, and increases vehicle operation costs. Therefore, emergency holding maintenance works by the Road Development Agency (RDA), and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) have commenced on the road following the release of K6.5 million.

As I speak, Madam Speaker, tippers and front-end loaders, and other pieces of equipment are being used to work on the road. The works are meant to stabilise the road and ensure that it remains motorable. As the Government, our current priority is to ensure that traffic is able to move along the route while we put in place long term measures to rehabilitate the road to high quality international bituminous standards. The Government has further given priority to this route for development using the Public Private Partnerships (PPP).

I must state, Madam Speaker, that the Government is in a hurry to develop this road and many others that are commercially viable by leveraging on the PPP mode of funding. Other roads within and connecting the province, prioritised for development using the PPP model include:

The upgrading to bituminous standard of 125 km of the Solwezi/Kipushi Road and construction of a one-stop border post at Kipushi Border. I inform the House that RDA received several unsolicited PPP bids to develop the road and border post. The agency is, currently, reviewing the unsolicited bids for procurement in line with the Public Private Partnership Act of 2009;
The upgrading to bituminous standard of the 100 km Lumwana West/Kambimba Road enroute to Kolwezi in the DRC, and the construction of a one-stop border post at Kambimba after Chief Kakoma’s palace. I update the House that due to the urgency of the project, concession agreement negotiations for this project commenced on 12^th June, 2023, and are expected to be concluded within the shortest possible time;
With regards to the upgrading to bituminous standards of the Landless Corner via Mumbwa to Kasempa Road, RDA has completed the engagement of consultants to undertake feasibility and viability studies on the project and is now at the stage of contract award; and
the upgrading to bituminous standard of the road from Kasempa to Kaoma, Luampa up to Simungoma onto the Sesheke Road. RDA has received a number of unsolicited local and international proposals to develop this international route that is part of the Walvis Bay Corridor for the export of Copper from the mines in the North-Western Province and the mines in Kolwezi in the DRC.

Madam Speaker, to ease connectivity across rivers and water bodies, the Government allocated thirty-three Acrow bridges to the North-Western Province out of a total of 131 bridges procured for the whole country. Due to the fiscal constraints, the installation of these bridges is being undertaken in a phased manner by RDA and our security wings. RDA is currently working with the Zambia Army to install five Acrow bridges in Zambezi West Constituency at a total cost of K23,964,153.08. The Zambia National Service (ZNS) has also been assigned to install three Acrow bridges in Kabompo Constituency, and is currently making site assessments for costs of installations.

Madam Speaker, the Government is currently implementing the improved rural connectivity project with the support of the World Bank. The World Bank has made available financial support amounting to US$200 million for the project. The North-Western Province has been allocated a total of 516 km of roads to be rehabilitated under this programme. The rehabilitation of 262 km in Manyinga District and Kabompo District has been awarded to Messrs. Wah Kong Enterprises Limited at a contract sum of K169, 676,114. The works will commence before the end of June, 2023. The roads to be covered include:

part of the Manyinga/Mwinilunga Road via Kashinakazhi covering a stretch of 108.1 km from Manyinga to Kazenzi;
the 34.1 km Mundanya/Kalyangandu Road;
the 31.9 km Kafungo/Kaliang’andu Road; and
the 87.5 km Kabompo/Kayombo Road.

Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of 254 km in Kasempa District and Mufumbwe District is currently under procurement and is, likely, to be concluded before the end of this quarter. The roads to be covered include:

the 44.5 km Kelongwa Road;
93.2 km Kelongwa to Nyoka Road;
24.1 km Munyambala Road;
the 16 km Munyambala/Wishimanga Road;
the 11.9 km Jivundu Road;
the 22.1 km Kasange Road;
the 11 km Kakilufya Compound to Nyampafuka Road;
the 15.5 km Mufumbwe Boarding School to Kahombo Community School; and
the 15.7 km Kawama Road.

Madam Speaker, the Government has also rolled out the rehabilitation of rural roads using the ZNS. Roads such as the 117 km stretch from Mwinilunga to Kazenzi and the 10 km from Kiafukuma to Kabulobe have been worked on. Construction of the road leading to the source of the Zambezi River in the North-Western Province has been prioritised under the US$100 million tourism investment programme being implemented in the Northern Circuit, the Western Province and the North-Western Province.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, recently launched the Decentralised Policy and Implementation Plan to cover the period 2023 to 2027. The New Dawn Government is taking development resources and responsibility to our people. Our communities must be masters of their own destinies and drive their own development agenda. The Government’s role is to empower them to do just that. As the Government, we are driving the agenda to empower our communities through increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that most of the districts within the North-Western Province and across the country have planned to purchase earth moving equipment using the 2023 CDF as a way of improving the conditions of the roads within the constituencies. The process for the purchase of the equipment in the various constituencies is currently at procurement stage. It is envisaged that the conditions of the roads within the constituencies in the North-Western Province and across the country will be further improved once the equipment has been procured. Roads in the constituencies will be easily rehabilitated by the constituencies themselves.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I reassure our people in the North-Western Province and the country at large, that your Government; the New Dawn Government of His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema will never abandon them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, in addition to that, the people of the North-Western Province are aware that for many years, they were left behind in development. That is why, it is one of the two poorest provinces in this country. The New Dawn Government intends to reverse this because the North-Western Province is a major contributor to the economy of this country. The people of that province must not listen to voices that might tell them that this New Dawn Government is neglecting them, as they had been neglected by Governments previously. The people of this great country remain a source of inspiration to this Government to continue working hard to better their lives, wherever they may be.

Madam Speaker, in 202l, we made a solemn promise to develop this country, and we have every intention to keep that promise. We have delivered on our campaign promises. We have delivered on timely disbursement of Constituency Development fund.

Madam Speaker, we shall, therefore, deliver on the roads and other infrastructure to every part of this great country, including the North-Western Province as expected by our people. That is our solemn promise to the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I do not know why the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte, my favorite hon. Member of Parliament, is so excited. I think this is a good statement and we should applaud it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, may I remind you that there are no points of order while a ministerial statement is being delivered. Let us not do thing deliberately when we know the rules.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement rendered by the hon. Minister.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I always value your guidance to the House that as we take to the Floor, let us make statements that build and unite the nation. Unfortunately, the hon. Minister has fallen short of that standard.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, for the record, some of the projects that were undertaken under the Patriotic Front (PF) include the US$240 million Kazungula Bridge, the Turnpike/Mazabuka Road, the Bottom Road –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as we ask our questions, let us remain relevant. Let us ask questions or points of clarification arising from the ministerial statement. Let us not make statement. Let us just ask to avoid unnecessary heckling and debating while we are seated.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, the Chingola/Solwezi Road was K1billion and the Mongu/ Kalabo Road was K4 billion, the biggest project that has ever been undertaken.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has catalogued a number of projects for the people of the North-Western Province. I think for the point of order that was raised, it was on account of the concerns that were coming from there. Therefore, could the hon. Minister inform the House in simple terms, how many kilometres of high quality bituminous standard roads the Government expects to construct in the North-Western Province between now and 2025.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I have tabulated the roads that the Government is going to work on. In case the hon. Member wants me to repeat, I will talk about the 100km which I stated very clearly from the Solwezi turn off to Kipushi, that is about 110km. I have talked about the 343km from Mutanda all the way to Jimbe that will be done to high quality bituminous standard. I have talked about the road from Lumwana West to Kambimba which is 100km which will be done to high quality bituminous standard. I have talked about the road from – he can add, I have tabulated them.

Madam Speaker I thank you.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madams Speaker, I thank the New Dawn Government for listening to the people of Mwiniluga. We had a concern, and I think this concern, as we prayed, has been answered. What, then, is the duration of this rehabilitation programme from Kisasa to Mwinilunga?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I assume that by duration, the hon. Member is asking how long it will take to make that particular portion from Kisasa to Mwinilunga motorable. All I can say is all efforts by way of equipment are being placed on that road to ensure that it is motorable. I know how bad that particular road is.

However, I must hasten to add that that is a temporary rehabilitation. Ultimately, we want that particular road on T5 from Mutanda all the way to Jimbe to be an international standard bituminous road. That is what we should focus on. However, in the meantime, we are carrying out works to make sure that our people can motor on that particular road.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, Dr Kaunda promoted a spirit of One Zambia One Nation in this country. I believe that certain statements which border on promoting regionalism should not be allowed in this particular House. To state that the North-Western Province was neglected is unfair.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I am alive to the fact that all the districts in the North Western Province are connected to tarmac roads, while in the Eastern Province, that is not the case. Most districts like Chadiza, Chama and Vubwi –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, what is your point of clarification? Do not debate.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, yes, I just wanted to clarify that.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, it is not time for clarification. It is time to ask questions on points of clarification. So, if you want to debate that issue, you can move a Motion. That is the way we do it in Parliament.

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, the New Dawn Government is always talking about Private Public Partnership (PPP), which may not actually be actualised. In the event that these road works in the North-Western Province, the Eastern Province and other provinces in Zambia do not qualify to be undertaken using the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) model, does the Government have a plan B?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as questions are being asked and answered, please, can we retrain ourselves from debating while seated. I am watching.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, when we address matters of national importance, it is important to be truthful. Those who study the history of this country will attest to the fact that for many years, the North-Western Province was known as the poorest and least developed province. The second one was the Western Province –

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: Well, I have to answer him. With respect–

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we listen to the response.

Rev. Katuta walking out of the Assembly Chamber while talking and pointing at the hon. Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Urban Development.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chienge, please leave the House and do not come back.

Rev Katuta continues talking as she leaves the Assembly Chamber.

Madam Speaker: I will name you now. I am going to name you if you continue on those lines.

Eng. Milupi: With respect to–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister as you debate, please, let us avoid issues that are controversial. Let us address the issue before the House. You may proceed.

Mr Mundubile: How long do you want us to keep quiet? We will not keep quiet anymore if you continue.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, with respect to the question asked about whether the PPP will result in actualising these particular projects, the answer is that we are serious, except that it takes time to tie all the loose ends and negotiate this. Already, work on the Chingola/Kasumbalesa Road has started, completed as a PPP. As regards the Lusaka/Ndola Road, work is supposed to start imminently. In Kalumbila District, work which is completed as a concession, is about to start. When it comes to the Mwenda/Kasomeno Road, again, that is about to be finalised. Furthermore, negotiations to complete the Katete/Chanida Road concession have started. So, it is a serious programme. The hon. Member is asking about plan B. Plan B is always using our own resources. The President and his team are spending sleepless nights to have the issue of debt resolved. As the Government, we think that this is about to be resolved, delayed as it has been, but this is debt that was left to us by those who were in Government before us.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of Order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Before we proceed, there are two indications for points of order; one from the hon. Member for Pambashe and the other one from the hon. Member for Katombola. The hon. Member for Pambashe indicated earlier. What is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I detest tribalists.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, if you are talking about tribalism, I think I guided. Let us not reopen the wounds. I have already guided and I did guide the hon. Minister that we keep away from issues that tend to divide the country. We should not use this House for that purpose. So, if your point of order is bordering on the hon. Member, guidance has already been given.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, it is not that. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 which provides that hon. Members be factual and that the content of our debate in this House is verifiable.

Madam Speaker, according to the World Bank’s economic indicators and the report that was published in 2020, which Zambia is using to make decisions today, Luapula Province is the poorest province at 94 per cent–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not debate. Please, state what the breach is and precisely raise your point of order.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 (a) which talks about content of speech and that the information we present before this House must be factual and verifiable. People must be able to trace it and we must be able to give content of the information we give.

Madam Speaker, this Assembly of yours is a gathering of ten provinces of Zambian’s seventy-three tribes and when we stand as people’s representatives, we must endeavour to give factual information for the good of the Zambian people out there and for the good of my children who do not belong to any province of Zambia. I do not like debating myself and the province I come from because it is very painful for me and my children –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon Member, you are now debating, yet you were guided.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Urban Development has deliberately chosen to mislead the Zambian people and this august House by saying that the North-Western Province, the province where my wife comes from, is the poorest province in Zambia when the facts are different–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon Member for Pambashe, please resume your seat first. Let me guide. The very way that you are asking the question is falling in the same trap that I had earlier guided against. I said that as we debate, let us not bring in issues that promote regionalism and tribalism. I think, I have guided. So, you are now pushing an open door.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I withdraw my point of order.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much for withdrawing.

Mr Andeleki: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, I am at pains to raise a serious point of order relating to the conduct of your Member, the hon. Member for Chienge.

Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on Standing Order No. 207, which provides for Contempt of the House. My point of order is on the conduct of the hon. Member this afternoon while deliberations of the House were underway. I am quoting the provisions of Standing Order No. 207 (1), (2) and (3) as read with Standing Orders No. 202 on Privileges of Members and No. 203 on the Conduct of Members.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Cheinge, a respected hon. Member, who is supposed to be in her second term, in order to behave in the manner she did in the people’s House and stand up and start ranting despite your guidance? She then comes back and points at you. Is she in order Madam Speaker?

Madam Speaker, I need your very serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: That is why the Speaker from the Parliament of South Africa said, “ani delela.”

Laugher

Madam Speaker: That is on a lighter note, but I reserve my ruling on that matter. Let us make progress. Ani delela means she is underrating me. So, please, let us not do that. I wish she had even carried her cushion.

Laugher.

Madam Speaker: Let us make progress.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to ask a follow-up question to the hon. Minister of Housing, infrastructure and Urban Development.

Madam Speaker, I am very disappointed with the statement that has been delivered on the Floor of this House by the hon. Minister. The reason I am disappointed, just as the people of North-Western Province are disappointed, is that the speech does not inspire us in as far as giving us hope as to whether we are going to have a solution to this problem is concerned. The hon. Minister started very well, and we are elated. However, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, just ask your question on the point of clarification. Do not use this occasion to debate.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, let me ask my question on a point of clarification. The hon. Minister gave a very good conclusion to his speech, but of course, all I get from here, especially about the trunk roads, is the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) approach, which would require some feasibility studies to be concluded in order the projects to materialise. What he has failed to give us is the hope to show that these roads will actually be done.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, please ask your question on the point of clarification. Do not debate. You can move a Motion if you want to discuss that issue, but please, ask a question on the point of clarification. What is your question?

Mr Kambita: The other question I want to ask on the point of clarification, and I am glad the hon. Minister for the North-Western Province is seated here, is on the feeder roads. The feeder roads have simply been shared between him and Kabompo, leaving out all the other districts, which is inconsistent with what we had agreed.

Madam Speaker, we should not be coming here to be used as rubberstamps to simply agree to anything. The North-Western Province delivered the best vote –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, I think the idea here is not to come and incite other hon. Members so that we have disorder. Just look at the disorder that is happening. I guided.

Interruptions

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, the clarification –

Madam Speaker: Order!

I have not finished.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

If you want to follow proceedings from outside, continue talking.

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, please, when you ask questions on points of clarification, do not incite other hon. Members so that there is disorder in the House. Just ask your question. Do not debate. As I earlier guided, if you feel so strongly about an issue, move a Motion and then you will be at liberty to debate. Now you are using this opportunity of asking questions on points of clarification to debate. That is not allowed. Can you please ask the question on the point of clarification. If you do not have, then do not ask.

You can proceed.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is on record, having come on the Floor of this House to give a Government assurance about Makondu Bridge, which is among the Acrow bridges that were supposed to be erected. He has mentioned five bridges which are going to be worked on in Zambezi West. Not even a single one – The Makondu bridge which is supposed to be worked on, is an Acrow bridge, and a Government assurance has already been given about it. Why is it not being mentioned? Even the feeder roads, the Nyakuleng’a route through Dikolong’a, we are just hearing of the road in Kabompo to Kayombo where the hon. Minister of Defence comes from …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: … and the road from Manyinga where the hon. Minister for the North-Western Province comes from.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambita: Why are Zambezi East –

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister may attempt to answer that question. So many questions were asked, anyway.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, thank you. We are not afraid to answer any question. The first point to note here is that if we are talking about the Acrow bridges, which he has made reference to, is that I talked about the North-Western Province and mentioned that there is a total of thirty-one bridges allocated to it. I only mentioned five. There are still twenty-six bridges, which includes the bridge that he is talking about and many others in the North-Western Province. In a statement like that, you give a snippet of that which is available.

Madam Speaker, in terms of the Improved Rural Connectivity Project (IRCP), we should understand that the amount of money that was given by the World Bank was US$200 million. When we came in as the New Dawn Administration, first of all, there were four provinces that were left out, that was, the Western Province, Lusaka Province, the Copperbelt Province and the North-Western Province, but by the time we came, there was still an amount of US$45 million out of that US$200 million. That is what was allocated to the provinces that were left out.

Madam Speaker, on the Floor of this House, we have made a commitment that we shall apply for a further amount for the IRCP so that we can address especially the areas that were left out. Out of that amount that we were able to recover from the first lot, the roads that we have talked about are the ones that have been taken into account. The rest will be taken into account in the next phase.

Madam Speaker, with regards to the answers to this question, I confined myself to the IRCP which I tabulated. Other roads are also being worked on. Some are being worked on using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. The best would be maybe, for the hon. Member for Zambezi East to visit the hon. Minister and have a chat and see how best you can iron out your misunderstandings.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, there is an indication for a point of order, but I cannot remember some of your constituencies. So, if you just stand up, I do not know whether it is Mkushi North or Mkushi South – If you cannot use your gadget, help me by sending a note. Do not just stand up. You have been trying to raise your point of order even when the hon. Minister was delivering his ministerial statement, which is not allowed.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, take judicial notice that last week on Tuesday, 6^th June, the acting hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, Hon. Frank Tayali, was asked a question about the following roads: Mutanda/Chavuma, Kasempa/Kaoma Turnoff, Kasempa/Mumbwa, Kalumbila/Mwinilunga, Mwinilunga/Ikeleng’i and Manyinga/Mwinilunga.

Madam Speaker, these roads –

Madam Speaker: What is the breach?

Mr Chisopa: The inconsistency, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: What Standing Order?

Mr Chisopa: Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker: Standing Order No. 65 what?

Mr Chisopa: Being factual.

Madam Speaker: Standing Order No. 65 what? Be specific so that you help us.

Mr Chisopa: Standing Order No. 65(1)(b), Madam Speaker, ensure that information –

Madam Speaker: Proceed concisely to raise the point of order.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mufumbwe asked this question, and the response from the hon. Minister was that the Government is not ready to work on these roads. The answer is there. Within a space of one week, the hon. Minister today has said that the Government is now ready.

Are they in order to give different statements on the same issues, Madam Speaker?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Okay. That issue can be cleared only when we look at the Hansard, but from my recollection, what the acting hon. Minister was saying then was that “when funds are available.” He did not say that they were not ready now. So, I find no inconsistency there. I do not want to speculate, but the acting hon. Minister then said “when funds are available.” That is what prompted the matter of urgent public importance so that the hon. Minister can come here and be clearer on when those funds will be available. That is my recollection. So, the hon. Minister is in order.

May we proceed. The hon. Member for Petauke Central is the one who raised the matter.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central an opportunity to ask a follow-up question, through me, to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Firstly, I want to thank the people calling from Mwinilunga, especially the chief, for appreciating me for raising matters of urgent public importance and encouraging me to keep raising the matters of urgent public importance –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, for Petauke Central, we have a lot of work on our Order Paper, and there are so many other hon. Members who want to ask questions: I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, over twenty hon. Members. So, you are squandering time by talking about things which are not necessarily relevant to the question.

Can you ask your question precisely.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam. I also want to thank the hon. Minister for responding and saying that contractors are about to start work on the road between Kisasa and Mwinilunga.

Madam Speaker, if I am not mistaken, the hon. Minister said that the Government is going to work on the following roads: Solwezi to Kipushi, which is in the North-Western Province, Landless Corner to Mumbwa Road in the Central Province, the Kasempa to –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question on the point of clarification?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam, the Kasempa/Kaoma Road is in the North-Western Province and the Western Province. What about other areas? The issue of roads affects all areas. In the Eastern Province, we have the Vubwi/Chipata Road, the Chadiza/Chipata Road, the Katete/Chama Road and there are outcries from those places –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr J. E. Banda: ... when are you going to mention these others?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you are out of order.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did indicate the programme of tarring the road from Mutanda Turnoff to Mwinilunga. I want to hear when exactly the works between Mutanda Turnoff and Mwinilunga will begin.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for raising a follow-up question. What I have stated is that the Mutanda/Mwinilunga/Ikelenge/Jimbe Road is part of the roads for which we signed an MoU with the Government of Angola so that it works on the roads on its side and we also work on the roads on our side. This is subject to the bids that we have received already so that this is undertaken using the PPP model. Now, with the PPP, you cannot always determine how many months it will take for a project to be undertaken. What is important is that, what is received is properly evaluated and the negotiations are undertaken to ensure that the concessionaire is the right one. I did state in my statement that we have received bids or expression of interest through bids from companies in Angola that want to do the whole stretch from Angola right up to Mutanda and also Zambians companies. These are what we are evaluating. When we have evaluated and concluded the discussion, that is what will determine the amount of time that the project will take and this House will be informed when we reach that stage.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for coming back to this House to assure the people of the North-Western Province of what the New Dawn Government is trying to do for them. Indeed, we cannot not run away from the fact that most times, the North-Western Province was left out.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question on the point of clarification?

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minster for the roads that his ministry has allocated to Mufumbwe under the Improved Road Connectivity Project (IRCP). However, the people of Mufumbwe want to know when these roads are going to be done. I did not hear the hon. Minister well. We have heard about the road works in Kabompo and Manyinga which are about to start. What about the ones in Mufumbwe and Kasempa, when is the Government going to work on them?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, what happened was that out of the US$60 million, roads were advertised and companies put in their offers. During the evaluation process, a number of road contracts were signed to the total value of US$15 million leaving an outstanding amount of US$45 million. At that stage, we had communication from the World Bank that it needed to move that money; the US$45 million, to another area of expenditure within Zambia. What that meant was that the roads on which we had not signed contracts remained in abeyance. We engaged the World Bank and through that engagement, this money was returned and we have given instructions that for the rest of the US$45 million, negotiations must start so that those contracts are signed, including for the roads that the hon. Member for Mufumbwe has talked about. As soon those contracts are signed, we shall then know when works will start. However, on each and every one of those roads that I have mentioned, there are offers from contractors, and it just remains to have the contract signed and work will start just as it has already started on the first US$15 million.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: We have run out of time, but before we conclude, hon. Member for Petauke Central, you were curtailed because you were not listening to the guidance. I was guiding you, but you kept on doing the same things. So, I had to curtail you because we have time restrictions. We have to attend to as many hon. Members as possible. So, there is nothing like treating you wrongly here. When you are guided, please, follow the instructions as you are given.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF AN OIL PIPELINE BETWEEN ZAMBIA AND NAMIBIA

288. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Energy:

whether the Government has any plans to construct an oil pipeline between Namibia and Zambia; and
if so, when construction works will commence.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala): Madam Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Energy, has plans to construct an oil and natural gas pipeline between Namibia and Zambia. In the last two years, both the Zambian and Namibian governments have reached a mutual agreement on the content of the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with the priority focus on enhancing economic co-operation between the two countries in the petroleum sub-sector. The Inter-Governmental MoU sets the terms and understanding between the Republic of Zambia represented by the Ministry Energy and the Republic of Namibia represented by the Ministry of Mines and Energy to support and facilitate the implementation of the private sector-led, Namibia-Zambia Refined Petroleum Multi-Product and Natural Gas Pipelines Projects commonly known as (NAZOP). The MoU was signed on 6^th October, 2022. The project is private sector financed and it is estimated at US$15 billion broken down as follows:

US$10 billion for the gas power plant; and
US$5 billion for the pipelines.

Madam Speaker, the construction is expected to commence in mid-2026 and completion is expected by mid-2029. The feasibility studies for the project of this nature and magnitude will take two years from this year; 2023 to 2025. The NAZOP pipeline system, when completed, is envisioned to supply 100,000 to 120,000 burrows per day of refined petroleum products along hubs in Namibia and Zambia.

The NAZOP pipeline system is also targeting to supply other countries in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region from its main terminal to be based around the Lusaka area. The pipeline will be built to supply natural gas to combine cycle gas turbine plants to be located in Namibia and Zambia to produce electricity of a combined minimum of 2000MW to supply Namibia, Zambia and other countries in the region via the Southern African Power Pool.

Further, Madam Speaker, the pipeline is expected to employ between 12,500 and 14,500 indigenous people in Namibia and Zambia during construction.

Madam Speaker, allow me to give some additional information for clarity. The question will be why is the pipeline terminating in Lusaka? I think, that is a question that might come.

Madam Speaker, Lusaka is more centrally located for distribution of finished products. In addition to this, it is preferable to construct the 10,000MW gas power plant near the load centres of which Lusaka is. The cost of transporting via a pipeline will be cheaper than the current arrangement where the product is transported via road. Consequently, more people will be employed. The gas will also be used for cooking, heating and other industrial uses. The Government will also promote the use of gas in cars.

Madam Speaker, there was has been large quantities of proven natural gas, and so, the question will be: Why Namibia? The answer was: There have been large quantities of proven reserves of natural gas that have been discovered off the coast of Namibia. There is also easy access to the Namibian port. The flexibility of the pipeline is that there is no need for a refinery and Namibia has a favourable flat terrain which is more suitable.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the response from the hon. Minister. Regarding this project which is envisaged to commence in 2026, what would be the expected lifespan of this supply?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, normally, projects of this nature are usually planned to last at least a minimum of twenty-five years.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this august House that there is a pipeline that will run from Namibia into Zambia. I want to know, and I am sure members of the public are interested to know what our stake as Zambia is in this project. Are we going to use the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) to hold shares or are we going to use the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) to hold shares in this project or it is 100 per cent owned by a private entity? What is our shareholding and stake in this project?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. This is a private sector-led project. The promoters are Basali Ba Liseli Resources Limited.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: That must be a Lozi name, Basali ba Liseli.

I am just guessing.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has given us the total cost of the project. He has also given us the timeframe for the feasibility study, which is two years or so. Is possible for the hon. Minister to share with this House the cost of that feasibility study?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, sorry, I do not have those figures, but I can get back to the House later and produce the actual figures on the feasibility study that is being currently undertaken.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sialubalo (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, arising from what happened about a month ago on the Tanzania-Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) pipeline where we lost a lot of fuel, is there any sophisticated security measure that the Government will put across as it comes up with this Angola/Zambia oil pipeline which will be more complex so that, once damage is made, an alarm is given out so that maintenance is carried out as soon as possible.

Madam Speaker: At the time I was allowing the hon. Member for Sinazongwe to ask a question, there was only one indication. I am closing the list. The hon. Member for Pambashe will be the last one to ask a question.

Madam Speaker, gave the Floor to the hon. Member for Chilubi.

Hon. Members: It is the time for the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, the hon. Minister of Energy before the hon. Member for Chilubi comes in.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the answer to that is basically, yes. This project will come with all sophisticated security features. The way it will be laid out is a security matter which I cannot comment on, but it will be properly secured.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, if I followed the hon. Minister, I bleieve he was talking about a pipeline coming from Namibia into Zambia. Recently, the President was in Angola talking about another pipeline. I am getting confused on how we are going to manage –

Mr Sing’ombe: Why are you confused?

Mr Fube: Excuse me.

How are we going to manage a lot of pipelines because even the TAZAMA one is running? I think, when it comes to tapping oil or whatever it may be, undertaking investment in that area is not child’s play. So, I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister how the Government will be manging all these pipelines.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Chilubi is not ambitious. This Government is quite ambitious in what it does. There is no problem in Zambia having three pipelines. Actually, we are even planning another gas pipeline to come from Tanzania into Zambia. We are going to do this gas pipeline too so that we can generate more electricity out of this project. So, I do not see why we should not strive to be ambitious and create more jobs and be a hub for power generation and export to other countries.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I see the hon. Minister mixing energy and being a hub for exports and imports of gas. So, we are talking about gas and petroleum pipes. The point raised by the hon. Member for Sinazongwe is very critical for the security of the nation. We cannot gloss over it. The hon. Minister may be aware that these are conflict minerals because petroleum products are minerals. I am aware that there is one coming from Angola, one will be coming from Mozambique and another one from Tanzania. What security measures is the hon. Minister putting in place to ensure that economic activities do not dilute the interest for the security of this nation?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I thought I had addressed the issue of security. This matter cannot be detailed in this august House. If the hon. Member is free, he can come and sit with us so that the promoters can walk him through the security arrangements.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ROAD REHABILITATION IN CHIMBAMILONGA

289. Mr Elias M. Musonda (Chimbamilonga) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

(a) whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the following roads in Chimbamilonga Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Roma /Kakoma/Mupandi/Kabompo;

(ii) Kananda/Katele;

(iii) Kampinda Turn-Off/Kashikishi;

(iv) Tupele/Mikose;

(v) Mwewe/Munwa /Cholwe;

(vi) Chilemba/Kapisha; and

(vii) Katwatwa/Banda;

(b) if so, when the plans will be implemented;

(c) what the estimated cost of the project is;

(d) what the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is; and

(e) if there are no such plans, why?

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government does not have immediate plans to rehabilitate the listed roads in Chimbamilonga Parliamentary Constituency. The plans of the said project are not yet in place.

Madam Speaker, in view of the response to part (c) of the question, there will be no cost estimates that have been done on the listed roads as there are no immediate plans. Please, mark the word ‘immediate plans’. The road sector financing is currently highly constrained resulting in the Government not taking any new road contracts at present.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Elias M. Musonda: Madam Speaker, currently, the Kakoma/Roma/Kabompo Road is in a deplorable state to the extent that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) has failed to collect maize which it bought during the 2021/2022 Farming Season. Is the Government considering using the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to do carry out some remedial works so that this road becomes passable?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I acknowledge, with regret, that the people of the Roma/Kakoma/Mupandi/Kabompo Road areas have no access to a market where they can take their crops. This is totally regrettable. The hon. Member also wishes to know whether the Government has any immediate plans of engaging the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to carry out some remedial works so that the people of Chimbamilonga can have access to the markets.

Madam Speaker, I wish to tell my Colleague that last year ,when we cancelled the road contracts that had been done prior to our taking over the responsibility of running this country, I stood here upon sharing information with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who indicated that those who have a dire situation such as washed away crossing points must quickly approach the office so that contingent measures could be taken in order to assist our people. I can confirm that several hon. Members of Parliament came through to the office and they were attended to. I would like to advise Hon. Musonda to kindly approach the office so that we can look at your situation as it exists, see the merits of the situation and we will see if we can find contingent measures to assist our people to get crops to the market.

Madam Speaker, I also wish to state that I admire your generosity of honesty when you say that the crop of 2021 is the one that is still marooned in Chimbamilonga at these areas. Really, his submission informs the House that that this problem is not a problem of today, but one that started a while ago. We are in a hurry to make the entire country connectable via roads except for what I said earlier on in my response that we have budget constraints and as we go along, we seek your support as we work to, least, serve the people whose interest and aspirations you represent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Elias M. Musonda: Madam Speaker, I do not totally agree with the hon. Minister when he says that his office was not approached. In fact, sometime last year, the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the council were tasked to carry out assessments and they did that on three roads which brought the estimated cost to about K154 million, but I take cognisance of the fact that the hon. Minister has invited me.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I thank the hon. Member for Chimbamilonga. In the interest of your constituency, the hon. Minister has invited you. Please, use that opportunity to address your concerns. I will take two more questions.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, when I peruse the Yellow Book, I find that among the development aspects that the Government wants to take on board is the Kasaba Bay. This means that Kasaba Bay is a hot spot for tourism. Further, some of the roads that the hon. Member has pointed to lead to what is called Mutundu which is 35km to Nsumbu and then going into Kasaba Bay. In view of the fact that there is Kasaba Bay, where the Government is already pumping in something, why can we not use part of the K250 million which is under the Ministry Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development that has budgeted for roads be used to facilitate integrated development?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi for his question. Maybe, in answering his question, I must cue in from the immediate past comment from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chimbamilonga where he indicated that RDA had gone to do an assessment of these roads.

Madam, this is just a gentle reminder that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development is different from the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development where the RDA is domiciled and therefore, when asking these questions, we should, as much as possible, not mix oranges and apples in doing comparisons and so on and so forth. Relating to the question from my hon. Colleague from Chilubi, again, the construction of the Kasaba Bay Airport is a matter that has been on the card for his country by successive Governments to open up the Northern Circuit. His question would be in line with an example that I will give.

We have just commenced refurbishing the Kasama Airport because we believe that that region can help us attain regional connectivity with our neighbours. So, the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi would be equated to asking me if I am able to take some money off the Kasama Road Project, which is backed by a Bill of Quantities (BoQ), with figures tied to it in order to patch up the roads to Chief Nkole Mfumu’s place. It does not work like that. It has not worked like that. The money that we budgeted for the Kasaba Bay Airport is not transferable to the Kakoma-Mupandi-Kabompo Road. Unless I did not get him right, I thought he was asking whether we could vary or not. Maybe, to put it in more clearer terms, the Kasaba Bay Airport is domiciled in the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development and not my ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the people of Chimbamilonga because for their hon. Member of Parliament to ask the question, it means he is seeking solutions for his people. The answer given really does not give hope to the people of Chimbamilonga.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Members on your left and those on your right are in partnership to work for our people. As much as the Government is constrained in terms of resources for roads, could the hon. Minister tell the House that it will be able to do the roads, perhaps in 2026, as requested by the people of Chimbamilonga.

Madam Speaker: I believe I heard the hon. Minister inviting the hon. Member for Chimbamilonga to go to the office to have a discussion. Maybe, that is a solution, but I will ask the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to answer the question.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, thank you, one again. I thank my son, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu for his sympathies to the people of Chimbamilonga. This document I have here is a ten-year road sector implementation plan for 2023 to 2031.

Madam Speaker, in this document, which is an executive summary, I wish to just explain, with your indulgence, where the road sector is as we found it so that he can have a fair appreciation of what he may seem to be referring to as lack of hope for the people of Chimbamilonga whom he dearly loves.

Madam Speaker, the problem we had in the last Government was that there was a lack of co-ordination on the medium and long-term road sector implementation plans in the last eight or nine years.

Madam Speaker, there was a lack of short-term planning which led to the use of single sourcing, limited selection methods or procurement and not using detailed designs, including engineers estimates which resulted to highly inflated costs of constructing a road per kilometre. These are the things that we detected. There were inadequate budgetary provisions for annual work plans resulting in the spreading of available thin resources to many unplanned projects.

Madam Speaker, what used to happen before is that for political expediency, contract projects were signed in an arbitrary manner. I have said this standing here and I am saying this with the greatest respect to those who caused this problem. To imagine that now they must be the ones to come and ask me to organise myself in providing the services to the very people whom they failed to serve becomes a fallacy.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: It becomes a fallacy, yes. We care for the people of Chimbamilonga. I therefore, urge the hon. Member to pass through the office, when he has time, and have a look at this document. He should contribute to it where he sees flaws and then together, we can say we are in partnership. However, the moment he comes and says, you have no appreciation – Right now, the ministry I am privileged to run is grappling with closures of accounts on these roads so that those who did work in the ministry should be paid their money. Our colleagues left a huge debt mountain in this sector. These ones here.

Mr Nkandu: Yes, these ones here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, I think that is now going to cause –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, resume your seat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, let us not point at the other people. You have given a background and it is sufficient. Let us let not point at each other. You may wind up your response.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I need not overemphasise the point. I think I have answered adequately and stated the challenges that we are facing and how we are trying to resolve them. These are challenges that were caused by our erstwhile governors.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order. Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you know, we have a lot of work on the Order Paper. What is the point of order?

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, I dealt with yours in anticipation because you want – we need to make progress. We have work on the Order Paper, which we need to conclude. Hon. Member for Petauke Central, quickly raise your point of order.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi, Hon. Fube.

Madam Speaker, it is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 (b) and Standing Order No. 135. Standing Order No. 135 states that a matter shall be considered urgent and of public importance if –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, do not squander time like that. We have a lot of work to do. Please, resume your seat. Hon. Member for Lunte, you may proceed.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order on the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development with respect to the content of speech.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister on the Floor of the House says that in the past nine years or so, there was uncoordinated planning due to such issues as single sourcing.

Madam Speaker, the the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway is single sourced. The current debate –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I have guided before. If you want to challenge the hon. Minister for any reason about what he has said, there is a procedure that we can follow. We do not need to raise a point of order in that manner. That is what the hon. Minister has said, that is what his report is saying. If you believe that that is not the correct position, there is a procedure to follow. You can still challenge the hon. Minister in other established ways, in accordance with our Standing Orders. That does not qualify to be raised as a point of order for now because of what he has said. You can follow the procedure. Look at the Standing Orders or seek some assistance and put in a complaint or something to show that what the hon. Minister is saying is not truthful. That would help.

Mr Kafwaya: He has breached the Standing Orders.

Madam Speaker: Even if he has breached the Standing Orders, put it in writing.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: If you are saying he has breached the Standing Orders because he has said something, how will I know that that is the correct position or–

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Just wait. Resume your seat.

The hon. Minister has given his position, which you are saying is not correct. Now, how will I know whether what the hon. Minister said is correct or not if you have nothing laid on the Table to confirm what you saying? That is why I am saying–

Mr Kafwaya interjected.

Madam Speaker: Listen first.

What I am saying is that write a complaint and attach your evidence and then I can attend to that issue. I cannot attend to it now because I have no evidence to rely upon. Even if I reserve the ruling, what evidence are you going to produce later? I am even giving you an opportunity to do a proper job on how to raise the point of order that you what to raise. You raise a complaint.

Before we leave this point, I wish to announce that the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, who was acting Minister of Finance and National Planning yesterday during debate about the K65 million has come with deposit slips, as ordered.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, may the hon. Minister lay the same –

Mr Fube interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Minister lay the deposit slips on the Table. Members wishing to verify will go to the Publications Department. There is no need to make a statement. May the hon. Minister lay the documents on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi laid the papers on the Table.

Mr Kafwaya stood to see what was laid on the Table.

Madam Speaker: Do not worry hon. Member for Lunte, the document will be availed to you through the Publications Department.

Let us make progress.

_______

MOTIONS

ACTUALISE PROVISION OF HEALTH SERVICES TO THE POOR AND VULNERABLE

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to actualise the provision of health services to the poor and vulnerable under the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIS).

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Madam Speaker informed the House that the Motion had been seconded by the hon. Member for Milenge.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: The problem is that I got information that the hon. Member for Nkana was out and the hon. Member for Milenge was going to second the Motion. I did not see that that he was back.

Moreover, I am getting too many notes. Hon. Member for Petauke, please, desist from sending notes to me.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, allow me to, first of all, thank you most sincerely for allowing me to bring this matter to Parliament. This is a matter that is very critical to the welfare of the people out there. I am grateful also for authorising that this matter be debated today, 14^thJune, 2023.

Madam Speaker, in 2018, in this Parliament, a very important piece of legislation was passed, which is the National Health Insurance Act No.2 of 2018. The following year, a Statutory Instrument was signed to provide regulations on how national health insurance would be implemented.

Madam Speaker, if you go to Section 5 of the National Health Insurance Act, you will note that the law empowers the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) to manage health insurance. Section 63 of the Act prescribes four different categories of persons who are exempted from making payments to NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, under Section 16 (a), the first group of people who are exempt from making contributions to NHIMA are those who are disabled and are not able to work. We have people who are disabled, but they are able to work. So, the first exemption in the law is for those who are disabled and are not able to work.

Madam Speaker, the second exemption in the law is for persons who are above the age of 65 and the third exemption is for persons who are defined as poor and vulnerable. I am aware that people have been asking who a poor and vulnerable person is. Section 16 is very instructive that the Department of Social Welfare, which is under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare is supposed to establish those who are poor and those who are vulnerable. So, Section 16 (c) describes the criterion for determining a person who is poor and who is vulnerable. I am very certain that in each of the 156 constituencies in Zambia, we have people that can be established to be poor and vulnerable using the criterion of the Department of Social Welfare.

Madam Speaker, the last category of people who are exempt from contributing to NHIMA are those who are given prescriptions by the minister in charge. Simply put, Section 16 (d) empowers the Minister to determine people who are vulnerable and need to be assisted.

Madam Speaker, why have I taken time to refer to the legislation that governs this matter? The spirit of enacting the law in 2018 was to identify two categories of people; those who are able to earn money such as ourselves and many others who have an opportunity to work and are able to contribute towards what is called NHIMA fees.

Madam Speaker, the second category is what I have laboured to indicate to this august House, and that is the category for people who cannot afford to pay, yet they require healthcare and need to be attended to at the earliest convenience.

Madam Speaker, before I move to the justification for this Motion, it would be important to inform this august House as well as the nation that currently, NHIMA has only accredited 375 health facilities. Out of the 375 health facilities in Zambia, 150 are public health facilities, which are regulated to operate as first level hospitals.

Now, if out 375, we only have 150 public health facilities, it simply means that if we have a patient today in the rural set up of Zambia, where there is no first level hospital, that individual cannot access health facilities that are NHIMA accredited.

That is why, Madam Speaker, when I was trying to put my thoughts together on this particular Motion, I wanted each one of us to remember that the spirit of the law was not to cater only for those who are working. Its spirit, and in the wisdom of all the hon. Members who were present when the law was passed was to have two categories of beneficiaries that is those who are able to pay and those who are not able to. It is very clear from the guidelines on the utilisation of funds from NHIMA that there are people who cannot access health facilities because they have not been captured under NHIMA.

That is why, Madam Speaker, I want to appeal to this august House to understand that the spirit of this Motion is clear. It is not about coming up with a new law. We are not asking this august House to come up with a draft law which we are going to debate, it goes to a Committee and then comes back to the House. We are simply saying that the law was already structured to make a provision for an institution called NHIMA, which already exists. We just need to actualise the provisions of the law to its full extent. This is because, currently, people who are formally employed are told that they have to wait for five days for the institution to get authorisation before they are attended to. What more the vulnerable and poor people whose income is not even determined, when will they receive the required health care?

So, Madam Speaker, I stand on the Floor of this House today to appeal to the conscience of the hon. Members who are gathered here. We have two responsibilities; to the current generation and to the future generations. Have we done enough to capture the poor and vulnerable as far as NHIMA is concerned? The answer is no. Have we put mechanisms in place for access to health care for our people in the rural parts of Zambia, and in the urban set ups where there are no first level hospitals within the shortest walking distance? The answer is no.

Madam Speaker, given my privileged position to speak to this august House to say that the only responsibility we have is to agree to actualise the provisions of the law. In actualising the provisions of the law, the Government has gone three or four steps in terms of the commencement of construction of infrastructure because to provide health care, you need infrastructure. However, that is not the discussion for today. The discussion for today is that the poor people in Mulenga Compound in Kamfinsa Constituency should be registered under NHIMA. They should also be registered with the Department of Social Welfare so that when they want to seek health care services, there should be no restriction that prevents them.

So, Madam Speaker, in summary, the National Health Insurance Act is clear that there shall be two types of beneficiaries; those who are able to afford it and those who are not able to. That is the first thing.

Madam Speaker, secondly, Statutory Instrument (SI) No.69 of 2019 allows for regulations on how NHIMA shall govern its activities.

Madam Speaker, thirdly, the definition of a poor and vulnerable person is prescribed in the law. I am not asking the House to come up with a new definition, I am simply saying that the law is clear. Our role and legacy as an august House are to ensure that we actualise the provisions of the law to the full extent that the poor and vulnerable will be able to access healthcare.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr B. Mpundu: Now, Madam.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to second this Motion that has been raised by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. Let me start by stating that it is not a disputable fact that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) has become a game changer as far as the provision of quality health care is concerned in this country.

As I start making my submissions, Madam Speaker, I want to make an appeal that as opposed to many other Motions that have been brought to this august House that otherwise could be dabbed political or controversial, this Motion is straight forward. It speaks to the need to provide quality health care for poor people. When we sit in the House, sponsored by the very poor people in our communities, they too, expect us to speak for them on the need to be able to access nothing but quality health care.

Madam Speaker, I want to speak as simply as I can so that the larger parliament outside can understand what we are trying to say today. In the wisdom of the parliamentarians who sat before us, they saw the gap that existed in the name of the provision of quality health care. For a very long time, there has been a challenge, which we still have today as far as providing quality healthcare is concerned. We speak almost every other day about the absence of equipment in hospitals and essential drugs. NHIMA has supplemented that gap that existed previously because whereas you cannot access quality provisions in government facilities on the account that you do not have sufficient funds, you are able, at a very small fee, to access quality health care in other institutions provided they are accredited to NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, in the wisdom of the legislators, the issue of solidarity was used, namely that those who can afford to pay for health services on account that they are a working class should be making contributions towards a stable fund that can be used in the provision of quality healthcare. They thought that we needed not to be selfish in only looking after our interests, they also considered those poor people who cannot afford it.

Madam Speaker, at the moment, when someone falls sick in our communities, they have to access, whether we like it or not, healthcare. Now, to do so, it is either you go to a public or private health institution. To go to a private health institution, you have to pay. Even if we dropped the requirement of paying for these health facilities to a K10, the fact still remains that there are some people in our communities, on account of the challenges of the economy, who cannot even afford to contribute that K10 towards the provision or access to health services. These are the people we are speaking for, and are captured in this Motion, that we need to actualise the provisions because the underlying statement, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa, is that we are not asking for a new law, rather, we asking this Parliament to urge the Government to actualise an existing law.

This Motion, Madam Speaker, is not bringing a financial implication on the Government because the monies are already being raised through the contributions of those who are already registered on NHIMA. All we are indicating is that the law dictates that we must also care for those who are vulnerable. The mover of the Motion clearly indicated that those who are vulnerable are the aged. Before my father died, he was beyond the age of 65. When his health was failing, we registered him under NHIMA, and he was able to access quality healthcare. That is what this Motion is speaking to. Those people who cannot afford to access quality healthcare must be able to access it through the majority who are in the working class.

Madam Speaker, I want to put it on record, as opposed to many other times when Motions have been about the right versus the left –

Interruptions

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Members on your right are making a lot of noise.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Former hon. Minister of Infrastructure and the current hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, please you are disrupting the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana. Consult quietly.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, let me emphasise that Zambia is a signatory to the United Nations (UN). The UN Sustainable Development Goal (SDG) No.3 speaks to universal health coverage. It would interest you to note that in 2023, Zambia came up with the National Health Strategic Plan which will run from 2022 to 2026. This plan envisages a nation of a healthy and productive people.

Madam Speaker, the idea is to create an opportunity where health provision is closer to the people. These are the people we are speaking to today, who do not have the capacity to pay for quality healthcare. However, the consolation is that somebody is paying for them.

Madam Speaker, I know that those who may stand to oppose this Motion will bring in issues of NHIMA being suppressed because today, cases that are being recorded of people who are going to claim have risen from about 5,000 to 300,000. Somebody is going to argue that the income at NHIMA has slowed down compared to the claims that are being made. I would like to say to this august House that there is a way we can deal with that challenge.

Madam Speaker, firstly, the contributions that are made by people who are making a contribution to NHIMA is at 1 per cent of net. The practice is that for insurance like the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), it is kept at gross, meaning that we still have a leeway to move the contributory rate from the 1 per cent not being on the net. The 1 per cent can be raised to be deducted on gross because that will provide enough resources for NHIMA to be able to meet the monthly pay outs.

Madam Speaker, secondly, the actuarial study informs the need to have put the contributory rate at 4 per cent, but we kept it at 1 per cent. We can change the law to raise it from 1 per cent to 2 per cent because it will raise more money for NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, in appealing to the conscience of the hon. Members, may I remind them that this is a Motion that needs to be supported.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Allen Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, I thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion. The people of Chimwemwe will also contribute by debating the Motion because this issue affects most people.

Madam Speaker, I will be concise and I will look at the funding of the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). Where are we going to get the fund to incorporate the vulnerable and the poor? We are not asking the Government to subsidise in order to incorporate these people. What we are trying to say is that we intend to see NHIMA start operating just like the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA).

Madam Speaker, NHIMA has got some unused funds that it can invest. We hope it can start investing those funds in short term investments. These instruments could be treasury bills, high yield saving accounts or a certificate of deposit.

Madam Speaker, out of every 1,000 people who contribute to NHIMA, only about 40 per cent actually use it. People like middle managers, managers and senior staff usually have two schemes. They have their own medical scheme from their employer and they also have NHIMA. Rarely do they use NHIMA. That money that remains unused is the money that I am talking about, the money that NHIMA can actually invest in treasury bills or any other instrument that would actually ensure that it gets reasonable retains.

Madam Speaker, some people would argue that we still have hospitals that accommodate the vulnerable people. If you really look at our hospital standards, you will see that we are looking at something that is discriminatory. We have the high cost and the low cost. In actual sense, the services that you get from low cost are not the same as those in high cost. The queues at the low cost clinics are so long and there is no emergency. You are attended to on first come first serve basis. This is the kind of principle that they look at.

Madam Speaker, I am trying to see that that person from Chimwemwe, that person who is old, like the mover of the Motion said, and that person who is vulnerable gets to a hospital and one of their choice. This is because this provision of having to make money from investments was actually tailored when NHIMA was created. So, I see no reason why NHIMA not be actualised now. We would rather have it actualised now, rather than later.

Madam Speaker, hospitals are not like hotels, where we can have proper discrimination of the upper class and lower class. We are being very polite by saying there is the high class and the low class. However, in actual sense, the higher cost is actually for high class people and the low cost is actually for low class people. Why should we have such a thing happening in this modern era? This is why we want NHIMA to come in and ensure that those needy people, the vulnerable person or parent is able to go to any hospital of their choice not just a government hospital even other private hospitals to get that specialised treatment. NHIMA is supposed to be an equaliser just like education is.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the mover of the Motion has already told us what the truth is. The people of Chimwemwe are hopeful and they believe that this Motion will be supported by all so that we can also see that our people; the aged and the vulnerable, are attended to using NHIMA.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Mbabala, to contribute to the debate on the Motion ably moved by Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa and seconded by Hon. B Mpundu, the Member of Parliament for Nkana.

Madam Speaker, when we analyse public policies, we look at polices themselves, the legislation and the system. What I find is that the establishment of the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) was basically a response to one of the health systems strengthening items, and this is financing. Within the health system strengthening, we have governance and leadership, which is in good shape. We have information systems that are in good shape and maybe, improvement somewhere, when we go to the human resource which saw the New Dawn Government recruit over 12,000 health workers last year and many more this year to try and fix the human resources aspect. We have got the drugs and logistics line, the infrastructure and health financing. It is at health financing where NHIMA falls and where we are grappling.

Madam Speaker, what we are grappling with here from the mover of the Motion is the issue of health access and financing in order to actualise strengthening our health system. Health services in this country are free at a primary level. Indeed, the existence of the high cost and low cost is basically an aeroplane model, whereby, you get the same doctors to treat the patients whilst being on the same plane, arriving at the same time but with some in the business class and others in the second class.

Madam Speaker, therefore, the Motion should be about moving NHIMA to the Ministry of Health, so that it can impact on each and every citizen in that manner as opposed to only those who are working. That should be our debate and focus, so much that we can ensure that every citizen receives these health services because they are already free. They are already provided for. The persons who vulnerable are already support through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, by social workers. We have hospital social workers who are able to determine using various means who is supposed to get free services or not. So, in terms of access for the vulnerable people, it is already happening. However, the question which I am putting my point on, is to move NHIMA to the Ministry of Health –

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was raising a point on the fact that when we analyse health systems, in terms of public policy, we look at policies which we said are okay, the registration is fine on this policy and we have a system issue. That is where the mover of the Motion cantered his discussion around, which is the provision of services by NHIMA. Now, I had raised a direction that we need to be focusing on moving NHIMA to the Ministry of Health because this ministry is the one with the mandate to provide health services in this country and it has services in each and every ward, constituency and district. These services are available up to national level and are actually a componentry is free. Health services are free to the poor and the vulnerable at the primary level, health post, health centre, level 1 hospital and all the way up to tertiary.

Madam Speaker, in the central and tertiary hospitals, we have hospital social workers. We have a Social Work Department that administers a mechanism to determine who is poor and vulnerable and then they get a free service. Therefore, the question of free actualising is already existing. The question that we are tackling now is moving the system to do the right thing, to be in the right place so that we can get the right traction and get the best results to reach everybody. It is for this reason that I am saying we need to move NHIMA as a health financing mechanism to the Ministry of Health so that it can continue providing complementarity to the delivery of services to everybody in the country.

Madam Speaker, NHIMA is in the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and this ministry looks at workers, the people who are employed and the like, but the role of NHIMA is supposed to reach everybody so that even those who are not in formal employment can actually register for NHIMA. It is for that reason that we are still talking about it coming to the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to talk about health service delivery. I have said here that health service delivery is done under the building block of service delivery, where in the health system, we have the information system, human resource, drugs and logistics and the like, which complement this system. Therefore, as we raise funds from NHIMA, these funds are supposed to help us build the other building blocks, to build the drugs line, the infrastructure line, the information systems line and the human resource line. So, as a financing mechanism, it should not only be about drugs. Drugs yes now because of what we are doing to fix the health supply chain system that was broken in the past regime. We are fixing that, and we are saying that we will continue to move this so that we can finance all areas of the health system as per six or seven health building blocks. By doing that, we will be achieving universal health coverage as per Sustainable Development Goal No. 3 (SDG 3) and in line with Zambia being a signatory to all these health issues.

Madam Speaker, the other issues which have been talked about, as I mentioned earlier, these are just financing models, like the aeroplane model which I already gave an example of.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion, but with a move to say let us focus on moving NHIMA to the Ministry of Health as opposed to actualisation because actualisation is already existing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central, through me, this opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this non-controversial Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank the mover, Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, for coming up with a very important Motion to bridge the gap between the poor and the rich.

Madam Speaker, in 2018, this august House enacted The National Health Insurance Act No. 2 of 2018. This Act talks about vulnerable people who can be assisted to access health care services through the National health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). For example, in Petauke Central Constituency and in Kamfinsa Constituency, we have people who live in the outskirts and their daily income is hand to mouth. Whatever they earn on a particular day is just for their daily needs such that if they fall sick, they will not afford panadol. When they go to a government hospital, they are told that the hospital does not have that particular medicine. Instead, they are given a prescription to go and buy medicine somewhere else. However, you find that that person does not have anything, not even an animal which he/she can sell to enable him/her to buy medicine or carry out some tests at the hospital.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa thought wisely to bring this Motion. In fact, the Act supports the vulnerable people in the outskirts of Petauke Central in areas like Chimanyama Ward, Kovyane Ward, Ongolwe Ward and Msumbazi Ward. These people should be helped by being put on NHIMA freely and not be made to pay. Furthermore, if this is done and, in the event, that they are referred to hospitals like the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), they will not have to sell their animals which they depend on for farming or sell their produce such as maize. If the vulnerable only harvested two bags of maize and they find themselves in a situation where they are referred to a hospital like UTH, they will be forced to sell those two bags of maize in order to access health services.

Madam Speaker, the good people of Petauke Central say thank you to Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, the mover, and the seconder of the Motion, Hon. Binwell Mpundu, for what they have done. You have really helped us because I do not think any person can shoot down this Motion. It is also a test for our people who voted for us. If we mean well for them, we should also think of them. We are not supposed to think only of the rich, but also the poor.

Madam Speaker, I have seen many instances where leaders only think about the rich people. When we come to demolishing some illegal structures, for instance, you will find that the structures for the rich are not demolished but those for the poor are demolished. So, it is the same even with this Motion. Once in a while, let us do the right things to support the poor because they usually wake up early in the morning to go and queue up to vote for us because they have hope. As such, we, too, should have hope and help them so that in the coming election, they should queue up in health.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I second the Motion 100 per cent, and this is the ideology of the good people of Petauke Central.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. I have a list from the Patriotic Front (PF) and another one from the United Party for National Development (UPND). We now move over to the PF. Hon. Dr Chilufya may proceed.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Ema minister aya! Hammer them! Finish them!

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for this opportunity to contribute to debate on this very important Motion.

Madam Speaker, Zambia, in alignment with the global health agenda, embarked on an agenda to ensure health services for everyone everywhere, succinctly put, universal health coverage. To attain universal health coverage summons all of us to strengthen health systems and ensure we address access through infrastructure expansion, have human capital so that there are hands to deliver these health services, have the supply chain of medicines to ensure everybody has access to safe and efficacious medicines countrywide, research to adduce evidence to inform policy and ensure evidence-based practice, and beyond that, leadership and governance needs to be strengthened, and have health security to ensure our people are protected from pandemics and from any other health risks.

Madam Speaker, all these are anchored on one fundamental pillar in our health system: healthcare financing. You need to answer the question of where you will get the resources to finance all these pillars. That is the reason we played midwife to the birth of the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA). This was to ensure we have a robust and sustainable financing mechanism to finance the health system. This is the reason I want to immediately support the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala who said that the immediate intervention should be revert NHIMA to the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, you do not play midwife to the birth of a baby and before the baby is even weaned off, you give it to another mother. Healthcare financing is a health system issue, and NHIMA is the conundrum of our healthcare financing programme. If we have to align to the programme and ensure all the milestones that were set out, including putting the vulnerable and the poor on NHIMA, we must do the first thing; make sure we get back to the agenda and to the Ministry of Health.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Health is highly decentralised. You will find a rural health centre in Kaputa. You will find a rural health centre in the remotest part of Nalolo. You will find a rural health centre in Kazungula. You will find that the structures that are there are able to even pick the poor and the vulnerable. This is the reason the synergies that were envisaged were in such a manner that we would pick the poor and the vulnerable quickly and enrol them on NHIMA and ensure that they are, in the spirit of solidarity, covered by those who are able to pay and by the Government. This is the reason I am stating that we need to accelerate the inclusion, the embracing of the poor and the vulnerable on NHIMA so that they can access health services.

Madam Speaker, the fundamental principles in the law include, one, the need to provide health services to everyone everywhere, two, solidarity, that is, those who cannot afford will be covered by those who can afford, and three, risk pooling because a million pay will pay but a 100,000 will be sick. The money paid by the others will be used to invest in the other pillars of the health system. That is how you develop a health system.

Madam Speaker, it is a strategic misalignment to move NHIMA from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. Again, I make a clarion call to the Government to reverse this immediately. Once it does that, it will anchor the scheme on the strategic alignments that already exist within the decentralised Ministry of Health and the strategic partnerships with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services where we are able to pick the vulnerable and the poor and ensure that these are linked to health service delivery.

Madam Speaker, the biggest barrier to service delivery is out of pocket payment. A person will be ill and they need money to go and buy a book, they need money to do an X-ray, they need money to do magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan and all these may cost way beyond a K1,000. For a family of ten, if ten people get sick ten times in a month, they require more than K5,000. With an average salary of K4,000 or K5,000, it means that there is a barrier to health service delivery. This is the reason we say pre-pay a small amount, say K30 or 1 per cent of your salary and ensure that within that, your spouse, your ten children, will access health services without money in your pocket.

Madam Speaker, the infrastructure exists in the Ministry of Health to provide health services. If you look at the poor and the vulnerable who are in Imusho or in Kalabo, you will see that they have a facility or a health centre there. If these people are picked out through the existing mechanisms in the Government as vulnerable and poor and registered on NHIMA the way we register the elderly through our facilities, we will be able to ensure that these people access health services and Zambia will retain focus on attaining universal health coverage.

Madam Speaker, I want to emphasise that while we played midwife to the birth of NHIMA, let us not incinerate it to ashes through strategic misalignments. Health is apolitical and we should all agree, across the political aisle to move towards sustainable development through addressing one key determinant of development; a healthy population. That can only be attained if we invest adequately in a health system.

Madam Speaker, a healthcare financing mechanism is a core component of a health system. We must immediately address the strategic misalignment of NHIMA from the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to the Ministry of Health. We are not looking at the health of workers, we are looking at the health of people who are not working, those who are working, those who have retired, and those who are yet to be born. That is the reason we must ensure that our health system covers everyone in the sector.

Madam Speaker, the issue of accelerating the inclusion of the vulnerable and the poor on NHIMA will be addressed through that. We know that today, if you walk into a facility and you are above sixty-five years old, you can go to a NHIMA desk and you will be given a NHIMA certificate and you will be able to access health services. We know that a person out there who is not in formal employment can pay say a minimum of K30 and will be on NHIMA. However, the person who is in a rural area needs to quickly get on aboard and there is a facility that is there that can be used.

Madam Speaker, finally, strategic co-ordination with the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMSA) would ensure NHIMA contributions to the Drug Fund so that the fund is populated and funded, and there will be no drug outages. All these laboratories that today work with the Ministry of Health receive money through NHIMA and they would ensure that access to laboratory services is enhanced.

Madam Speaker, private facilities today, can work closely with NHIMA and ensure universal health coverage.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to also add my voice to this very important subject matter on the Floor of the House in particular, the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa and seconded by the hon. Member for Nkana.

Madam Speaker, basically, the Motion on the Floor is a Private Member’s Motion that is urging the Government to actualise the provision of health services to the poor and the vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, it is the responsibility of any Government worldwide to provide for the health of its citizens without discrimination, whatsoever. If you listened very carefully to the debate of all hon. Members Parliament, you will note that is the point or the case that they are making and for our jurisdiction, urging the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) to move very quickly by taking the interest of the poor and the vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, I will debate by just going point by point because of time. First and foremost, I want everybody to realise that in this country, right through from independence up to this very day, primary healthcare services are free. In other words, if anyone of us breaks his legs right here, develops malaria or a headache, he/she can literally walk in any direction as long as you go to a public health facility at primary care level up to first level hospital, and he/she will be treated free of any cost. That is the first point I want everybody to make. Secondly, it is also important to note that all our health facilities in this country have guidelines which were issued to all our facilities to ensure that the vulnerable, the disabled and those who are judged to be unable to pay, through the social workers offices by way of criteria, are supposed to be exempted from any form of payment, just as my hon. Colleague here has mentioned. My colleague, the former hon. Minister of Health agrees with me. So, in other words, there is no debate, whatsoever, to the fact that it is imperative for any administration to provide health services without regard to any discrimination on the basis of one’s status in society.

Madam Speaker, this has been subsisting since independence. However, there was a shift in 2018. We must commend our colleague who brought the National Health Insurance Act No. of 2 of 2018 known as NHIMA today, which makes it mandatory, by the way hon. Members, for everyone except those who are above eighteen years to be on NHIMA including all of us here. We are all supposed to be NHIMA registered. So, whether you are vulnerable, poor, disabled or a Member of Parliament, you are all supposed to be on NHIMA. What is the effect of that? The effect of that or primarily the aim was to ensure that there is universal access to healthcare for everyone. Universal healthcare means leaving no one behind, including the very poor and vulnerable, whom we are talking about.

Madam Speaker, when it comes to the Government, and you take into consideration what I have mentioned here, the question that begs an answer is: Has the Government actualised the provision of health services to the poor and the vulnerable? The answer is yes. Why is that so? It is because of the very fact that realisation was what led to the promulgation of the National Health Insurance Act. Secondly, is this current administration administering NHIMA? The answer is yes. What should be at play, what I gather here, is that the argument is on whether the implementation of NHIMA is smooth or not. What we should be talking about, which everyone else has been belabouring here are the structure rigidities that exist in the implementation of the NHIMA law. In other words, the challenges, bottlenecks and barriers which NHIMA is currently facing in implementing this very Act. That is the only debate we should be having. I have heard hon. Members here belabouring the point that those of our friends who are in far off places like Shangombo and Imusho are the vulnerable and so on and so forth. That does not mean that the Government has not taken their interest at heart. What it simply means is that the National Health Insurance Act – by the way it was only enacted in 2018, and in 2019, there was the Coronavirus Disease -2019 (COVID-19). So, basically, the strict implementation of this Act was somewhere around 2020 and 2021.

Madam Speaker, the roll out in registering the poor is currently going on, you are aware about that. The roll out in registering the far, hard-to-reach places is currently going on. This requires a lot of time and it is going on. I support the idea that what we should be talking about is how we can strengthen the National Health Insurance Act to be able to ensure that more of our facilities in the rural areas are actually being accredited. How can we ensure that? Many of our people who are poor are actually being registered. This is on-going, it does not mean that the Government has not realised that, it has. That is why the legal environment is correct. Today, we all say the National Health Insurance Act is a good piece of law, but of course, it has these challenges. Let us work at improving it.

Madam Speaker, lastly, it has been said that maybe, NHIMA is not correctly domiciled in the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. Yes, all I can say to this is that you see, the concept of one Government, one Cabinet does not really matter where the particular corporate body is located ...

Hon.PF Members: Question!

Dr Kalila: ...as long as Cabinet and an administration realises –

Laughter

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, I will give you my honest opinion. First of all, health financing is a health systems issue. It talks about access, health workers and infrastructure. The right place to do these things is basically under the Ministry of Health, except the point I am making is it does not really matter, and it is according to the way each administration sees it fit.

Hon.PF Members: No

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Let us not debate while seated.

Dr Kalila: Madam Speaker, having said that, as I conclude, perhaps, the Government is desirous and continues to take care of its poor citizens and the vulnerable as I have shown you all. This is the point the two young technicians of Kitwe are making, and there is no augment or debate about that. At the same time, it is within their mandate to remind the Government to do what it is already doing. So, all they are doing is reminding us to do what we are already doing and there is nothing wrong with that. On that basis and that basis alone, we urge you to continue reminding us. It is like saying we urge this Government to provide a Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) when we already have FISP happening. So, that is what is happening.

Madam Speaker, on that basis, it is fairly within the hon. Members’ mandate as legislators to provide an oversight role to the Government and represent their people by reminding us to do what we are already doing so well.

With that, I support the Motion, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, permit me to appreciate the mover and the seconder of the Motion and all fellow hon. Members who have spoken to this healthy debate.

Madam Speaker, indeed, we have had people in this House before us, who were unable to get medicine when their term of office came to an end. This is not only a debate for the rich or the poor, but also for hon. Members from here.

Madam Speaker, history has shown us that there are some people who have served as Republican Vice-Presidents, yet they cannot even buy medicines when they leave office. The only advantage they have is a 21-gun salute when they die.

Madam Speaker, history has shown, through your office, that some hon. Members, through your mercy, have been provided lunch for, and they could not afford to buy medicine beyond the life span of politics and their stay in this House.

Madam Speaker, history will show that last year, Hon. J. Chibuye, Member of Parliament for Roan, moved a Motion on something to do with witchcraft.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: To discourage –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can we, please, be in line with the Motion.

Mr Munir Zulu: Yes, I am in line with it, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, some people in rural set-ups, though Roan is not a rural set-up like ours, because of not having access to such services, end up practising what the hon. Member for Roan was discouraging in this august House last year. It was a good debate, and I remember all of us laughing out loud. So, I agree with the movers. I equally agree with the Member for Mbabala, Hon. Munsanje, that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) must go back to the Ministry of Health. This is because, as the hon. Member for Chimwemwe here said, there is the issue of investments, and NHIMA should have its own investments. Where it is right now, in the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, there is an investment policy, but the money that will be contributed to this scheme, under the Ministry of Health, will be addressing issues of health. Where it is now, it could be addressing labour issues. Of course, I am not making reference to the labour ward, but to the workmanship of the Zambian people.

So, the people of Lumezi, Madam Speaker, are less privileged when it comes to these hospitals being at a proximity of 1 km or 2 km. People travel by motorbikes or ox-carts for 50 km or 60 km to access health facilities just to not be provided the services at the hospitals because they do not have money.

The other rigidity, Madam Speaker, that we should be looking at is the registration process. If we go to the University Teaching Hospitals (UTH) now, we will find some people who have been there for four days just trying to be registered on NHIMA. That process should be done within two or three minutes. Some people have abandoned that process either as a result of death while on a queue to be registered or out of frustrations. One cannot be going to one place like a pendulum and still not be registered in good time. Those are the rigidities that, I think, we can address.

Madam Speaker, so long as NHIMA is under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, I long to see the day one of us moves a Motion so that it goes back to the Ministry of Health.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I appreciate the mover, the seconder and all hon. Members who have spoken to this health debate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: This is non-controversial Motion. So, allow me to call upon the only female hon. Member of Parliament who has indicated to debate. Thereafter, we are going to invite the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment to respond.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Lundazi the opportunity to debate this non-controversial Motion. I also want to appreciate the mover and the seconder. To all the people who have debated, I say that I adopt all their debates as my own.

Madam Speaker, most of the views have come from the medical or social point of view. I want to talk about the psychological challenge that affects all of us, especially when we cannot find out what caused our relative to be sick or to die.

What sends most of the people to an early grave, Madam Speaker, is desperation. In case you have an ailment and you are told to go and do certain tests by the hospital, but you cannot afford that, depression comes in among the people who are around. At the end of the day, it might be said that ‘the one who was sick has survived, but the people who were taking care of that person have gone’.

Madam Speaker, no one wants to see their loved ones in a desperate situation, especially where health is concerned. The issue that this Motion is trying to address is, really, that of levelling all of us. There is the saying that “the poor will always be around”. If we come up with a good policy, or change or just adjust to what was left out, we can cure this challenge we have, where there is a gap.

Madam Speaker, coming from a constituency in Lundazi, a rural area, I receive phone calls about people having prescriptions and needing medication. If this adjustment of the policy can cure that challenge, then, I fully support it. There are people who have travelled from Lundazi, Lumezi, Chasefu and Chama to Lusaka, and most of the hon. Members of Parliament, especially those from the Eastern Province, are told of the challenges that the people are facing and, sometimes, with our little resources, we are able to assist. Alas! Sometimes, we do not have the money.

Madam Speaker, from the time I was elected, we have been debating the issues of a lack of drugs in hospitals and reagents in laboratories. If this Motion is able to cure some of the challenges, then, we fully support. Out of desperation, some people have even stolen just to try and save their child suffering from a cancer they were failing to attend to.

Madam Speaker, as a female Member of Parliament, and knowing that this Motion is non-controversial, I want to appreciate the fact that the New Dawn Government can implement this proposal and take the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) to the ministry where it is desired. In Mukanile Village, there is Mukomba Clinic, in Mwase, there is another one, meaning that health facilities are fully decentralised. However, I do not even know where the offices of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security are in Lundazi. When we talk about decentralisation, which the Ministry of Health has already done, we can take advantage of that. We put the poor on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and Social Cash Transfer (SCT), and it would be just logical to also put them on NHIMA. Then, we can all be levelled and can work in peace.

Madam Speaker, the people of Lundazi support this Motion and are happy that, now, we are discussing what really affects a real Zambian.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Green Economy and Environment (Eng. Nzovu) on behalf of (the Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba)): Madam Speaker, we acknowledge and appreciate the Motion moved by Hon. Kang’ombe, the Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency, and seconded by Hon. B. Mpundu of Nkana Constituency.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA), is in the process of extending non-contributory participation to the poor and vulnerable as mandated by Section 16 of the National Health Insurance Act No.2 of 2018. This process requires extensive collaboration with stakeholders, both local and international, in the generation of resources to subsidise the on-boarding of the poor and vulnerable who will have no contributory capacity to join the scheme.

Madam Speaker, the National Health Insurance Scheme (NHIS) was established by the National Health Insurance Act No.2 of 2018 and Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 63 of 2019 as a compulsory scheme for all Zambian citizens and legal residents to provide sound and reliable healthcare financing. This was part of a Government policy aimed at removing financial barriers to accessing healthcare through the elimination of out-of-pocket payments, which were limiting access to health services, particularly to the poor and vulnerable. The NHIS is a means of pooling funds by collecting premiums based on one’s ability to pay, with exemptions and subsidies for the poor and vulnerable; the elderly, those above sixty-five; and the mentally or physically challenged. The collections feed into a single, unified NHIS Fund, and that reduces fragmentation in fund collections and management.

Madam Speaker, since 2019, the NHIS has made the following progress:

registered 3,296,139 members, of which 2,356,418 are principal members and 939,721 are beneficiaries of principal members, as of May, 2023;
paid K1.5 billion in claims from inception of the scheme. I must add here that most of the K1.5 billion was collected in the last one-and-half years; and
accredited 375 facilities countrywide, including all district, provincial and national referral hospitals. It has also accredited private facilities, including hospitals, clinics, pharmacies, laboratories and optical centres.

Madam Speaker, the contributory structure of the scheme, coupled with the national economic structure, exposes the scheme to sustainability risks arising from the following:

low formal sector employment, thereby limiting the collection base for the scheme’s revenue. This was well elaborated by the mover of the Motion who also suggested that the collections be moved from 1 per cent to about 2 per cent;
high informal sector activity with low irregular incomes, leading to challenges in the extension of coverage to the informal sector; and
high poverty levels, leading to high dependency on the limited formal sector contributions and, therefore, threatening the solvency and sustainability of the scheme.

The above have resulted in the following:

low levels of collections to meet the demand for universal health coverage;
limited coverage for informal economy members; and
limited coverage for the poor and vulnerable, who need the most health care access.

However, it is worth noting, Madam Speaker, that between 2020 and 2022, average income claims grew by 2,011 per cent, from K2.6 million per month to K70.5 million per month, whilst revenues grew by 83 per cent, from K45.6 million per month to K83 million per month. The growth in claims far outweighs the growth in revenues, posing significant risks to the scheme’s solvency.

Madam Speaker, to achieve universal health coverage and ensure that no one is left behind, there is a need for a deliberate, diversified, robust and well-coordinated mechanism for on-boarding the poor and vulnerable onto the health insurance scheme. Although the purpose of the NHIS is to provide a pro-poor alternative to the out-of-pocket payment system, there are immense financial challenges in registering indigents who are exempted from contributing to the scheme. Finding a financially sustainable solution for subsidising the exempted groups presents the greatest challenge to achieving universal health coverage. Furthermore, populations affected by conditions requiring frequent access to healthcare services should not be exposed to catastrophic health expenditures, hence, the need for financial risk protection.

Madam Speaker, Section 16 of the National Health Insurance Act mandates NHIMA to provide health insurance on a non-contributory basis to citizens and residents in the following categories:

a person with disability who is unable to work;
an elderly person above the age of sixty-five years;
a person classified as poor and vulnerable by the ministry responsible for social welfare; and
any other person as may be prescribed by the Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Madam Speaker, currently, NHIMA has been progressively covering persons above the age of sixty-five years, as they fit into the category of retirees. The call to extend coverage to the poor and vulnerable is in line with, and will augment, other Government social protection programmes for the poor and vulnerable, such as:

the SCT;
Public Welfare Assistance Scheme (PWAS);
Food Security Pack (FSP); and
the free education policy.

Madam Speaker, for persons classified as poor and vulnerable, the ministry, through NHIMA, is targeting on-boarding households that are currently registered under the SCT Programme administered by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. However, without corresponding subsidisation of contributions, NHIMA faces a heightened risk of insolvency, hence, the need for subsidisation by the Central Government and external co-operating partners.

Madam Speaker, to guide the policy on the extension of coverage, the ministry, through NHIMA, has completed an independent and comprehensive actuarial valuation exercise aimed at:

estimating the financial liabilities of extending coverage to the non-contributing poor and vulnerable;
estimating the impact on the solvency of NHIMA; and
estimating feasible revenue sources to cover the extension of coverage.

Madam Speaker, to sustainably extend coverage to the poor and vulnerable, and sustain the solvency of the scheme, the actuarial valuation report makes the following key recommendations:

the need to review the NHIMA contributory rate to generate additional revenues to cover the poor and vulnerable;
the need for an annual budgetary allocation from the Central Government to subsidise the poor and vulnerable. The estimated liability for the 1.1 million poor and vulnerable households, representing about 6 million persons, identified is about K658 million per annum; and
the need to mobilise additional support from co-operating partners to subsidise the poor and vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, in light of these recommendations, the ministry has embarked on the following:

engagement of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, through the 2024/2026 budgeting process, for consideration of the proposal for the Central Government to subsidise the poor and vulnerable;
engagement of co-operating partners to extend subsidy support to the extension of coverage to the poor and vulnerable under the SCT scheme; and
active consultations with stakeholders on financing reform options for the scheme to enable the extension of coverage to the poor and vulnerable.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, to actualise the provision of health services to the poor and vulnerable under the NHIS, the ministry, through NHIMA, will implement the above measures and progressively on-board the poor and vulnerable under the SCT programme, working closely with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, beginning in 2024. Furthermore, NHIMA will extend its accreditation to mini-hospitals, zonal clinics and rural health centres, which are close to poor and vulnerable communities.

Madam Speaker, as stated by many debaters on the Floor this House, indeed, as the Government, we say that hon. Members are pushing an open, and it is their duty to move the Government to do that which is right. We also believe that the Act was enacted in good faith and that what was lacking was obviously implementation because there was very little funding put in this very good scheme. This Government will ensure that adequate funding is put into the scheme.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health, under this Government –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Nzovu: Yes, Madam Speaker, I am winding up.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is doing her best to ensure that this scheme works. As elaborated by Hon. Dr Kalila, the hon. Ministers of Labour and Social Security, and Community Development and Social Services, which are under the same Cabinet, are methodically working to ensure that the poor of the poorest are catered for.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, allow me to begin by thanking everyone who has debated. I think, it is important that I place on record my personal gratitude for the support this very important Motion has received today. I also put on record my gratitude, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa as well as every hon. Member of this august House, to your office for being courteous enough to allow this Motion to be tabled.

Madam Speaker, what are our roles, as hon. Members of Parliament, even as I conclude? Firstly, we need to use our privilege to do what society expects us to do. That privilege is to design systems, regulations and laws that support those who are not able to support themselves. What happened in 2018, that is, Parliament coming up with this wonderful piece of legislation, is what we are supposed to be doing. So, I hope that going forward, there will be more pieces of legislation that will unite this august House to the point where we will be discussing what is good for Sesheke and what is good for Kamfinsa. Therefore, I am grateful that this Motion has been supported widely, because this is the expectation of our people out there.

Madam Speaker, lastly, health financing is a priority that we should all focus on, and I hope that the recommendations in the remarks by the Acting hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security will be tracked in terms of the progress that we will be making. This is because, ultimately, we want healthcare for our people.

Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely, and I hope that going forward, there will be more Motions that will be supported.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 9^th June, 2023.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms S. Mwamba (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 198, your Committee considered one topical issue, namely the review of the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service.

Madam Speaker, during its study, your Committee interacted with several stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions before it. Allow me now to highlight a few of your Committee’s findings on the premise that hon. Members have had the opportunity to read the report and will contribute accordingly. The first –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

When an hon. Member is giving a report, we want as much as possible to get what is in the report. I do not know whether the point of order is so urgent to warrant disturbing the hon. Member for Kaoma Central. What is your point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I am a very sad Member of Parliament.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, you directed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to bring a deposit slip to this House, bearing K65 million which is a subject of conversation. The hon. Minister has brought a set of documents without a deposit slip for K65 million. He is claiming to have laid that deposit slip on the Table.

Mr Nkandu: Tekanya iwe.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is the Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to bring documents which are not a deposit slip for K65 million and lay them on the Table, pretending to have laid a deposit slip for K56 million in order to mislead this House (while pointing at the Hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker)?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I do not think you are supposed to point at me.

Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just confine yourself to your space.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House that that he has brought a deposit slip for K65 million which was deposited in the bank, when in fact, he has just brought documents with one deposit slip for US$57,000 and other transmission copies of money? Is he in order?

Madam, I seek your very serious ruling on this matter. This House cannot be treated in this fashion.

Madam Speaker, I –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before you sit, can you please cite the rule that has been breached.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this is debate –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, it is a point of order.

Mr Kafwaya: I am saying this is debate and debate is anchored on Standing Order 65 in its entirety, on truthfulness of both tendered speech and tendered documents.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, we have got your point. I just wanted you to respond by stating the breach that has been committed and not to debate because you have already stated your point of order.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, absolutely, and I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on my left, Order! I want to make a ruling.

Hon. Members, indeed, the Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning brought some documents which were laid on the Table. For me, it is very difficult, at this moment, to make a ruling because I have not yet seen the documents. So, I reserve my ruling so that I study the matter and come to this House at a later stage with an informed ruling. So, I will come to this House later.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I am going to allow the hon. Member for Kaoma Central to continue with his debate.

Brig-Gen Sitwala: Madam Speaker, as your Committee was looking at the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service (ZPS), the first thorny issue which came to light was the state and condition of police station buildings in the country.

Madam speaker, a number of police stations in the country are in a deplorable state and require immediate refurbishment and extensive maintenance works to be done on them. In addition, the office space at some of these police stations is inadequate to support the current number of officers ...

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can we listen to the report in silence?

Brig-Gen Sitwala: ...especially in administrative roles.

Madam Speaker, in view of this challenge, your Committee, strongly, recommends that the Government should not only repair or maintain the current infrastructure, but should also construct new police station buildings, with sufficient space to cater for the current number of units and sections at police stations. It is the view of your Committee that the Government should also build police posts to enhance visibility and presence of police officers in the un-serviced areas of the country.

Madam Speaker, coupled with this problem is the poor state of some of the housing units for police officers, which are seemingly not fit for decent human habitation. Your Committee also observes that in some districts, police officers are renting in various residential compounds, a situation which makes it difficult for quick mobilisation in case of emergency operations.

In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government constructs new housing units for police officers to enable them to live in decent houses and operate effectively.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is also greatly concerned that most police stations in the country have inadequate transport to enable the police to effectively perform administrative and operational activities. Additionally, some areas are situated across water bodies and thus difficult to access.

Madam Speaker, the Government is, therefore, urged to provide adequate vehicles and speed boats in the case of areas engulfed by water bodies, in order to enhance the administration and operations of the police.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes with great concern the inadequate or erratic monthly funding to police stations to sustain operations. It is the view of your Committee that this state of affairs has led the ZPS to be perceived by the general public as being ineffective and very corrupt.

Madam Speaker, your Committee, therefore, recommends that the ZPS should be adequately funded on a monthly basis up to station level for effective implementation of its operations.

Madam speaker, your Committee is greatly concerned that police officers do not get paid settling-in allowance, loading and offloading and vacation leave allowances whenever the officers are either transferred or due for vacation leave.

Madam Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Government should, as a matter of urgency, prioritise and consider paying the various allowances accrued to police officers to enhance their morale.

Madam, your Committee observes with great concern that the salaries for police officers have relatively remained low compared to other men and women in uniform. Your Committee is also concerned that the conditions of service generally, for police officers, have continued to be poor.

Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government should take concrete steps to address all issues surrounding the low salaries and poor conditions of service for police officers, if the tag of being corrupt is to be erased from the service.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is concerned that promotions in the police service are tied to post-identification numbers, which are no longer available at police station level, to afford the deserving officers promotions.

Madam, your Committee notes that police officers may be in a different station but possessing a post-identification number which is meant for a position in another police station and district. This situation is depriving officers in those stations from being promoted.

Further, Madam, your Committee notes that the non-promotion of these deserving officers has resulted in loss of morale among police officers. It is common among the police to find officers who have served for over thirty years and they are still serving as constables. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government should review or possibly abolish the post-identification numbers mechanism which is tied to promotions, as it is not serving any purpose, whatsoever, as expected by police officers.

Madam Speaker, the other issue is on the Zambia Police Thrift, Credit and Co-operative Society (ZPTCCS) run by the police. Your Committee came across a situation where some police officers travelled from very far to claim their money, but they were actually tear-gassed by fellow police officers at the headquarters, yet they came to claim the money that they contribute every month for the purpose of their welfare. This, I think is an issue which requires to be looked into.

Madam, I appeal to the Executive to study and implement of some of the recommendations contained in your Committee’s report for the benefit of this country. I also appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to support the report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs.

In conclusion, Madam, I thank all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee and tendered both written and oral submissions. I also thank you, Madam Speaker, and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to your Committee throughout the session.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms S. Mwamba: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, in seconding this Motion, allow me to make a few comments.

Madam Speaker, there has been inadequate training for police officers. As the situation stands, officers only train for six months, which is not sufficient. In the times we are living, we come across officers who have deficient knowledge in criminology, Information and Communications Technology (ICT), public relations as well as basic law which they need to acquaint themselves with the observance of human rights. I, therefore, urge the Government to consider training officers not for only six months, but for at least a minimum of twelve years so that they get to the full understanding–

Hon. Members: Twelve years?

Ms S. Mwamba: Twelve months, sorry, so that they get the full understanding of officer training.

Madam Speaker, there are inadequate police stations and police posts in the country. The number of police stations and police posts has remained low. Just like most police stations, police presence is largely concentrated in urban areas leaving out most rural areas. However, the population in rural areas has grown and crime has gone up. I, therefore, urge the Government to consider, as a matter of urgency, the construction of more police posts and police stations, especially in rural parts of the country.

Madam Speaker, the mechanism for awarding promotions in the Zambia Police Service disadvantages most long-serving officers, and so they have remained stagnant in their ranks for a, relatively, long period of time, yet, newly recruited officers have continued to rise in the ranks. You find that a mere superintendent who has been serving for less than ten years is, now supervising more experienced inspectors. This is due to the number of years served, the long serving officers are more competent in the service than those who have been newly appointed. We, therefore, urge the Government to review the mechanism used to promote police officers so that deserving long-serving officers can be promoted to higher ranks.

Madam Speaker, the police service lacks modern equipment and material resources to manage highly sophisticated methods of detection, investigation, communication and interrogation of suspects. Being the twenty-first century, crimes are now highly sophisticated. However, despite this fact, most police officers do not have basic equipment such as computers. They do not, even, at times, have handcuffs to enable them to execute their duties properly. The Government should procure modern equipment and materials that can enhance the capacity of the police to detect, investigate and interrogate modern and sophisticated crimes.

Madam Speaker, we continue to urge the Government to look into the plight of police officers. They are in dire need, and morale is low as they do not have the mere basics as alluded to by the chairperson of your Committee.

With these few words, Madam Speaker, I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion on this important Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs to Review the Administration and Operations of the Zambia Police Service. First and foremost, I commend the chairperson of this Committee, Hon. Brig-Gen. Morgan Sitwala (Rtd), and Hon. Sibongile Mwamba for seconding the Motion.

I have noted, Madam Speaker, that your Committee concentrated its local tours in towns along the line of rail. I think it is important that next time, it should go to remote areas such as Chama, Mitete, Chienge, Shangombo and so on and so forth, so that it understands the challenges our police service has been confronted with. By just going to towns along the line of rail, we may not get the real challenges the police service has been facing. So, I hope that next time, your Committee will go to those remote areas.

Madam Speaker, I am aware of the fact that the Zambia Police Service is a very important state institution of good governance that was created by an Act of Parliament to maintain law and order in this country. During the one-party state, we had the Zambia Police Force, but, it was transformed into the Zambia Police Service. So, we want to ensure that for its sake, as hon. Members, we continue to advocate for increased budgetary allocation as the Committee noted that the institution is poorly funded. At the same time, we want police officers to discharge their duties diligently.

Madam Speaker, we are ready, as hon. Members, to support this state institution on condition that police officers are professional in their duties. We do not want a compromised police service that is prone to be used by those in authority to suppress freedom and liberties. We want an institution that is going to be professional, treating every citizen of this country as equals. We have seen a trend that our police officers, who are supposed to safeguard human rights, have, in some instances, engaged in activities relating to abuse of human rights. People have been detained without being given bond for a long. That is contrary to what the New Dawn Government promised the people of this country.

Madam Speaker, it is a known fact that we even have hon. Members who were denied bond. If hon. Members are denied bond, what more vulnerable people in society? So, I think it is important that our police service ensures that it works in line with the current democratic dispensation.

Madam Speaker, the behaviour of some police officers leaves much to be desired. Just a few days ago, a youth by the name of Masauso Banda was shot dead. A defenceless youth from Chama North was shot dead in Shiwang’andu. This person was not even posing a threat to the police officer who shot him. So, I think it is important that the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security ensures that we inculcate a sense of discipline in the officers.

Madam Speaker, I am alive to the fact that the police service faces enormous challenges. Coming from a trade union background, I am particular about these challenges. We have heard about the lack of promotions. A person has been serving for fifteen years, yet they are a corporal or sergeant. Other challenges are lack of accommodation and poor salaries. That is why I have been advocating for the formation of a police trade union so that it is able to represent the interest of police officers. This is not strange even though some people may think that it is. Countries such as South Africa, America, Germany and several others have police trade unions. Even though they do not go on strike, the unions ensure that they consider the interests of their members.

Madam Speaker, in terms of infrastructure, it is true that rural districts have poor accommodation. For example, Chama District is one of the oldest districts in this country, yet the police station there is a makeshift structure not fit for human habitation. So, it is our prayer that the Government puts in place a roadmap to ensure that modern police stations are constructed in all districts in this country. The issue of modernising our police service is very critical. We need to empower the service so that it is able to combat sophisticated cyber and white-collar crimes, which are very complicated. So, I think it is important that more resources are channelled towards that.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I have also noticed that we are demotivating our police officers. We appoint people who have retired from the service to senior positions such as Inspector-General or Deputy Inspector-General when we have eligible serving officers.

Mr Mundubile crossed the Floor.

Mr Mubika: Leader of Opposition!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, please try as much as possible not to break the rules of the House. You passed in between the hon. Member who is debating and myself.

Mr Mubika: A senior hon. Member of the House!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama North, you may continue.

Mr Mtayachalo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was saying that we have seen a trend of demotivating serving police officers by appointing people who retired from the service a long time ago to senior positions. Surely, how do we expect to implement reforms in the Zambia Police Service? So, I think, to motivate police officers, let us promote those who have been in the service for a long time because they are in touch with modern reality on the ground.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, the report also noted that there is an increase in theft of livestock. As a member of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources, I feel that is a very serious problem. We were in Chisamba, in the Southern Province where we heard such reports, and I think our farmers are crying. So, I to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock to work together and have concerted efforts to put up a radical plan to ensure that we combat the theft of livestock.

With these few remarks, I support this Motion.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving an opportunity to the people of Nyimba to contribute to this very important debate.

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 64. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, my brother, in order not to congratulate the bride we have in this House, Hon. Munashabantu? Is he in order to have kept quiet yesterday and today? I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am sure that was on a light note because we do not know if the hon. Member for Kalabo Central did that on the actual day of the wedding.

Hon. Member for Nyimba, you may continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, let me congratulate my hon. Sister. Congratulations pastor.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, looking at time, I will only touch on a few things. First and foremost, the challenges facing the police service in Zambia are too immense to ignore. In the rural parts of this country, police officers, at district level, do not get more than 90 litres of fuel per month for their operations. In areas like Mwinilunga and Nyimba which are vast districts, how do you expect them to operate or deal with the criminals? It is very saddening. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to look at this issue and ensure that it is sorted out.

Madam Speaker, regarding transport, all constituencies are buying vehicles for police officers. However, that is still not enough because some of the areas are too big to be policed by one police vehicle. Other constituencies may be smaller, but the challenges are too many such that one police vehicle is not enough for the officers to deal with the crime in those areas.

Madam Speaker, it is high time the Government looked at these challenges, funded the Police Service and accord the service the respect it deserves. I would also like to challenge the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to, next time, bring a beautiful budget to Parliament, one we are all going to support because we do not want crime in our areas. In areas that share borders with other countries, the levels of crime are difficult to manage. You will find that people from two different countries speak the same language and have the same name. These are some of the problems we are facing. So, we need sufficient transport, not just one land cruiser which we are expecting from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We should not even be talking about it like we have managed to sort out transport problems.

Madam Speaker, in addition, this is coupled with the poor conditions of service for the police officers. Today, if you check the statistics in the country, you will note that the Police Service is considered one of the most corrupt institutions in this country. The reason is very simple. Somebody goes home with K2,000 per month and this is the person you send to man a roadblock, this is the same person you send to go and apprehend a criminal who is worth K1million. What do you expect from that person? We should be speaking to these things because this is what is happing. It is the reality out there.

Madam Speaker, I know the hon. Minister is capable of changing the narrative, and in future, people will appreciate and say that ‘when we had Hon. Jack Mwiimbu as Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, he improved our salaries and conditions of services. That is what we need in the country. When those who serve in the Executive leave office, they must leave a good record so that people appreciate them for what they may have done while in office.

Madam Speaker, there is no funding at district level. The hon. Minister can correct me if I am wrong. Funding just ends at provincial level. How do we expect these people to do a professional job? I think we are just cheating ourselves. If we are not funding these people at that level, how do we expect them to solve complicated crimes in our districts?

Madam Speaker, let me give an example of the Officer-in-Charge in my constituency. The last time I was in that office, it did not even have a desktop computer. If the officers need to write a report, they have to go to a business centre. How can you type sensitive information in a business centre? What are we doing as country? My appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament is that if our able hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security does not bring a tangible budget, please, let us reject it so that he can go back and correct it. That way, we can give our men in uniform what they deserve.

Madam Speaker, today, police officers now do not abuse their rights. What the country has given them is not enough for them to work professionally. So, if we need these people to work professionally, my appeal to this House is that we understand our colleagues and help them with what they need.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this very important Motion on the Floor. The Motion is about the administration and operations of the Police Service.

Madam Speaker, to start with, I would like to thank the Chairperson of your Committee for ably moving the Motion. The role of the police is to ensure law and order in the country. However, the challenges which the police are facing are numerous and I sympathise with them.

However, I would like to mention that the challenges of the police are a legacy issue and they stem from way back. I thank the New Dawn Administration for the approach it has taken in trying to bring normalcy in as far as the operation of the Police Service is concerned.

Madam Speaker, before reforms were carried out, the police used to be called a Police Force, then it turned into a Police Service. The idea behind that was that the policing had changed to the extent that it also required taking into consideration issues of human rights. Therefore, there was a need to ensure that we move from a force where the police used more of physical force to carry out their duties. As the chairperson of your Committee and the seconder of the Motion have emphasised, training for police officers is important. There is a need to make sure that the police get adequate training to enable them to address the challenges that have come with modern criminality.

Madam Speaker, the training still remained at six months. I think, that is why we are seeing some of the inadequacies in our police officers. I, therefore, concur with my colleagues to the extent that there is actually an urgent need to ensure that the training of police officers is enhanced as that will enable them to carry out their work adequately.

Madam Speaker, I would like to commend the New Dawn Administration for its methodical approach in doing everything including how it is trying to approach the work of the police. Why I am saying this? From the word go, we have seen how this administration decided to make sure that all constituencies receive vehicles under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Furthermore, the issue of transport for the police is critical, and I do not know how a police officer or a police station that has no vehicle can adequately carry out its duties since they have to move day and night. The challenges of inadequate transport are everywhere, and so, we wonder why past administrations did not take this issue seriously.

Hon. Government Members: PF!

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, this big problem was left like this for a long time. So, I am commending the New Dawn Administration for this timely decision to purchase vehicles. I am sure the police officers out there are really happy and we will see them actually carrying out their work adequately. Not only that, we have also seen this New Dawn Administration going to recruit police officers because the numbers of officers are low. Certain police stations and police posts are manned by one person or two people, which is also not adequate to make sure that they carry out their duties properly. Kudos to the New Dawn Administration and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security kudos for the approach that the ministry is taking to make sure that police officers do their work adequately.

Madam Speaker, I, however, have a few issues that I would like to raise regarding the operations of the police. I have noticed, recently, a trend where police officers, especially traffic officers, hiding on street corners to trap would-be offenders. I think that trend should be stopped. We cannot have police officers leaving their homes to go to work, then five or ten of them hide on a corner of the road to try and trap people. That should be checked because this is where issues of corruption are coming in. If that money, which they collect on those corners, were to go into the Government coffers, this country would be very rich. Unfortunately, the money is shared between the police officers and the Government. I think that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Madam Speaker, the issue of stock theft is very critical and I want to speak to this because in my constituency, this is a big challenge. I would like to inform the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security that we need to find means and ways of addressing this problem because it appears that our youths are trying to use this as a source of income. Let us improve on the stringent measures and the punishment should be made stiffer. Maybe, it will deter would-be officers, because right now, it is like they are given one or two-year sentences and then they come out and continue committing the offenses. So, let us try to make the punishment stiffer so that our poor people who are depending on livestock can at least continue to earn something from their business.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of housing, my appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is that as the ministry is considering this good approach of rehabilitating and constructing staff houses for police officers, do not forget my people in Sikongo. We have a police station there with many staff houses, unfortunately, the houses are highly dilapidated. I sympathise with my officers in Sikongo who are living like they are in a village setup. Those houses were built a long time ago by Kenneth Kaunda, may his soul rest in peace, and they have never seen any renovation of any kind. Right now, there is no running water and no electricity, we just had to improvise. Please, as the ministry continues with the methodical approach of trying to solve problems which the previous Governments have failed to do, remember the people of Sikongo. With these few words, I would like to second the report.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor. Let me start by commending the chairperson who has moved this Motion and, indeed, your Committee for the work it has done. This is a very important topic. All of us, in one way or another, are affected by the operations of the police. So, this topic, which is looking at the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service could not have come at a better time than this.

Madam Speaker, the previous speakers have talked about the challenges and the recommendations which your Committee has made. I just wish to pick on some of the recommendations and the challenges. The report is talking about promotions in the Police Service. In every organisation, it is the wish, especially of the new joiners, to know the career progression. However, what this report is telling us is that the mechanism for promotions is not very clear in the Zambia Police Service. People remain in the same ranks for so many years. The juniors come in and spend a few years then they rise up in the ranks. I think that the report is very clear and the ministry needs to address this issue.

Madam Speaker, what is more worrying is what the report has mentioned with regard to women police officers. Your Committee’s reported has highlighted that women police officers get promotions by giving in to sexual advances by the senior police officers. This is very worrying, and if it is not addressed through outlining the promotion mechanism, it will continue at the expense of more deserving and more hard-working police officers.

Madam Speaker, I would like to also talk about the conditions of service. As has already been stated, many people label the police as corrupt. This is because when we look at all the security wings in this country, we see that the police are the least remunerated. This is with regard to salaries and other conditions. For me, when it comes to looking at these conditions of service, I would like to, firstly, talk about housing. The previous Government invested a lot in terms of changing the housing conditions for police officers, and we are able to see that. So, I urge the current administration to continue with that policy, more especially in towns such as Mufulira where we were beneficiaries of the new housing units for the police. However, we still have another section of the police who live in the old compound, in the cambers, and so, we can see the demotivation because everyone wishes to move out of those colonial police houses into the modern houses that where constructed. This was a very important exercise and without trivialising it, I would like to urge the current administration to look into the housing situation for the police officers and ensure that no police officer continues to live in those old colonial houses but everyone must be upgraded to live in safety and comfort.

Madam Speaker, as regards the conditions of service, the report brings out the issue of qualifications. There are police officers who have used their own resources to upgrade their qualifications without even being sponsored by the Zambia Police Service or the Government. However, they remain in their position even after graduating with their newly acquired qualifications. Obviously, for one to seek to upgrade their qualifications, they are hoping that when they bring those papers to the powers that be, they can either be moved from the department to the department where their newly acquired qualifications fit in. However, that is not happening, according to the report, and it is very important to consider, especially that someone used their hard-earned money to pay for their own qualifications. When they bring their qualifications to the authorities that be, it is only good that the employers respond to that by putting them in a correct department that fits the qualifications that they have.

Madam Speaker, let me move on. As we are still looking at the administrations and operations and of the police. We also have instances where people have been taken into detention, and when that happens, they are able to walk and they are physically fit. Then that person suffers beatings and they give testimonies that those beatings were administered by the police while they were in custody. We have cases like that. I can even give examples from Mufulira, where the police go to pick up a suspect and, in the process, a suspect is brutally beaten to the extent that he cannot even stand on his own, and he is basically paralysed.

Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that we have the Police Public Complaints Commission (PPCA). This commission needs to decentralise because the people outside of Lusaka may not even know about the existence of this commission. Why? It is because it is only found here in Lusaka. When someone in Mufulira, Chipata or Lundazi wants to lodge a complaint, he has to do it at his own expense. He has to look for this commission and lodge his complaint. People end up going to the same police officers who inflicted the dehumanisation or pain on them. What happens then? Generally, people are scared of facing the police, so they end up nursing their injuries. People end up nursing their sick who suffered at the hands of the police. So, we need to bring the PPCA closer to the people and away from Lusaka so that there can be checks and balances on the excesses of the police.

Madam Speaker, the report also talked about modernisation, that is, the police being equipped with modern equipment. I want to link this also with the training that is given to the police. Most of the time, once officers graduate after six months, that is it, as we have already read from the report. They will spend years and years working in the service without retraining. Crime has evolved. Criminals have advanced in the technology and the techniques that they use. Therefore, it is important that even the Police Service in-service training focuses on equipping police officers with modern techniques of fighting crime because criminality has also advanced. Further, even the equipment needs to be looked at.

Further, we know that the police are taught to refrain unless in self-defence, but we need modern equipment to ensure that even in self-defence, the police officers can easily have a taser or other equipment that they can use to maim or disable suspects or criminals in pursuit of arrest. I see that the police still use the old tactics and they are outplayed by the criminals who are advanced. So, modernising police training and acquiring modern equipment is important.

With these words, Madam Speaker, I support the report.

I thank you Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. Hon. Members, due to lack of time, this is how far we can go. Let me apologise. I have seen that you have read the report, which is very good. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is going to respond to the issues that have been raised and those that are in the report. So, at this juncture, allow me to call upon the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to respond to the issues and the report as well.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I thank the chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs and his Committee members on the work done to review the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service.

Madam Speaker, the report highlights the administrative and operational challenges the Zambia Police Service is facing, and has made various recommendations on measures to improve the situation. The report of your Committee is very comprehensive and it has highlighted a number of pertinent issues which we, as the Government have accepted and shall proceed to work on those issues that have raised by the Committee.

Madam Speaker, the Government is committed to improving the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service, including the welfare of the officers in order to make the Zambia Police Service effectively contribute to the provision and maintenance of internal security in the country. To this effect, the Government, has among others, put in place the following measures:

Construction of Infrastructure and Enhancement of Technological Development.

The Government is putting in place modern infrastructure and equipment aimed at improving the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service. These developments include countrywide expansion and approval of the Zambia Police Service structure and the approval of the establishment of the air wing. I also wish to inform this august House that the Zambia Police Service, through my ministry, has bought boats for use in areas which cannot be accessed by road. We have bought a number of boats which we have already distributed.

The Government of the Republic of Zambia did construct 1,500 housing units which are complete and have been handed over. Further, once we finalise discussions with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we intend to construct another 2,000 housing units for the Zambia Police Service. We have also increased the establishment of the Zambia Police Service from 27,000 to over 36,000 posts and these will go a long way in curing the issue of post identification numbers, which has been causing many problems and making the Police Service appear not to be looking at the interest of the officers.

The Government has also continued to construct police stations and police posts throughout the country. We have also engaged various constituencies in the country to support us in the provision of police posts. I am happy to report that a number of constituencies in the country have responded positively and a number of police stations and police posts have been constructed;

Increase in the Budget Allocation to the Zambia Police Service.

The allocation to the service has steadily been on the increase, with a notable increase of 35 per cent as provided for in the 2023 National Budget. We are aware, however, that even this increase of 35 per cent is not adequate to meet the challenges of the Zambia Police Service. When the next Budget is considered, I look forward to my hon. Colleagues supporting our recommendations to increase the budgetary allocation further for the Zambia Police Service;

Recruitment of Police Officers

The Government has continued to recruit more police officers to support the administration and operations of the Zambia Police Service. A total number of 2,000 police officers are scheduled to be recruited in 2023;

Procurement of Transport Logistics

Madam Speaker, I also want to thank the hon. Members of this House who have supported the procurement of vehicles for the police for all the 156 constituencies.

I am happy to report that the procurement has reached an advanced stage and I am being assured that within the next one month, the first batch of the motor vehicles will be available and will be distributed to the various constituencies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the Government is desirous to have a professional Police Service. It is in the interest of all of us hon. Members of Parliament and members of the public to have a Police Service that is responsive and professional.

Nobody, I repeat, nobody will condone unprofessionalism among police offices. We have embarked on a programme to retrain most of these police officers. I am aware, as it has been stated, that some of the police officers have never gone for retraining, which is a very unfortunate situation. We have embarked on a programme of ensuring that we retrain them. I also want to state that I do not agree with the sentiment that has been expressed that most female police officers are rising in their ranks because of compromising their social status.

Madam Speaker, that is not true. Most female police officers are very professional and hard working. I, therefore, urge all of us to support the female police officers who work under very difficult conditions. It is our duty as leaders to pay particular attention pertaining to the welfare of our female officers. I also urge all of us who are working with these officers to make recommendations pertaining to these officers who are female to be upgraded and recommended for promotion. There are very few senior police officers currently serving. I urge all of us not to have that stereotype women. They are professionals, they are doing their best and they are the most hard-working officers.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I would like to wholeheartedly accept the recommendations that have been made by the able Committee of Madam Speaker. We will consider all the issues that have been raised by the hon. Members of this House who have debated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker, and I support the report.

Brig-Gen Sitwala: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who debated this afternoon. I also want to thank the hon. Minister for the very positive response given. Not to reignite the debate, but I just want to remind the hon. Members that when we are dealing with matters of security, we should handle them with the care they deserve. The problems in the Police Service are big and they are not new. Like the hon. Member for Sikongo mentioned, there are, maybe, what we may term the legacy issues. However, there comes a time a when we should break these legacy issues and start from somewhere. The problems need our attention. As hon. Members of Parliament, our responsibility is to support the budget for our policemen. We should not be proud to hear our police being called the most corrupt organisation in our country, that is not the best. The police are there to look after all of us and they can only do so when their conditions are good, they are comfortable, they have transport, stationery and fuel. I want to urge everybody to ensure that starting with the next budget, maybe, we can make a change by allocating our Police Service enough resources so that we can change this bad history that is prevailing today.

Otherwise, Madam Speaker, I thank you more sincerely once again, and everyone who debated.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE ZAMBIAN DELEGATION TO THE 13^TH ORDINARY SESSION OF THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY OF THE FORUM OF PARLIAMENTS OF THE MEMBER STATES OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON THE GREAT LAKES REGION (FP-ICGLR), HELD IN JUBA, SOUTH SUDAN FROM 27^TH MARCH TO 1^ST APRIL, 2023

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the 13th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (FP-ICGLR), held in Juba, South Sudan from 27^th March to 1^st April, 2023, for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 6^th June, 2023.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No.146 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021, I rise to give a statement on the proceedings of the 13^th Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (PF-ICGLR), which was held from 27^th March to 1^st April, 2023, in Juba, Republic of South Sudan.

Madam, the Second Deputy Speaker, Hon. Moses Moyo, represented Madam Speaker as leader of the delegation.

Madam Speaker, for the information of the House, PF-ICGLR was established on 4^th December, 2008 in Kigali, Republic of Rwanda, with the purpose of promoting; keeping; and reinforcing peace and security in the Great Lakes Region. This desire was expressed by the Heads of State and Government in the Security, Stability and Development Pact of the Great Lakes Region, which was signed on 15^th December, 2006, in Nairobi, Kenya, and came into force on 21^st June, 2008.

Madam Speaker, the Speakers of Parliaments of the Member States of the Great Lakes Region, mandated by their respective parliaments, stressed the point that democratically elected parliaments could play a major role in the promotion of peace, security, stability, mutual understanding and friendship among the African people, as well as solidarity, brotherhood, and good neighbourliness among the states of the region. One of major roles of the forum, therefore, is to engage parliamentary diplomacy in contributing to peace, by putting in place mechanisms for the better implementation of the pact, protocols and programmes of action outlined in the pact.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the forum comprises twelve-member states, namely the Republic of Angola, Republic of Burundi, Central African Republic, Republic of Congo, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of Kenya, Republic of Rwanda, Republic of South Sudan, Republic of Sudan, the United Republic of Tanzania, the Republic of Uganda, and the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the theme for this year’s plenary assembly was “The Role of Parliamentary Diplomacy in Conflict Resolution in the Great Lakes Region”. Since its inception, the forum has been instrumental in spearheading discourse on peace, security, and stability in the region, which has over the years witnessed a number of blood wars, famine, starvation, economic and social inequalities as well as religious strife and political turmoil. The conference was officially opened by the second Vic-President of the Republic of South Sudan, Prof. James Wani Igga. In his address, the Vice-President indicated that the 13^th Plenary Assembly was certainly a historical and memorable one considering that it was taking place in South Sudan which meant that the Rt. Hon. Jemma Nunu Kumba, Speaker of the Transitional Legislative Assembly of South Sudan would assume presidency of the forum. Indeed, it was a great occasion for the people of South Sudan because this is one of the first major meetings they were holding as you know they are a new nation.

The Vice-President indicated that the Great Lakes Region consisted of a complex network of political and economic interactions of countries in the Eastern and Central Africa with implication on peace, security and governance. Given the interrelations among the conflicts within the region, peace building activities had taken a regional approach rather than focusing on a single country which had its own shortcomings. The Vice-President went on to explain that the regional focus approach had often ignored the power of building relationships and involving local actors to address the root causes of the conflict.

Madam Speaker, let me report that the resolutions on the security and humanitarian situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), the Central African Republic, South Sudan and Sudan which were made at the 13^th Plenary Assembly were presented to the chairperson of the Summit of the Heads of State of the member states of the international conference of the Great Lakes Region, His Excellency, the President of Angola, on 22^nd May, 2023 by Rt. Hon. Jemma Nunu Kumba sitting President of the forum and Speaker of the Transitional National Legislative Assembly of the Republic of South Sudan and I was privileged to represent you at this high-level meeting for which I remain grateful.

Madam Speaker, in his acceptance remarks, the President of Angola stated that it was high time African problems were resolved by home grown African solutions and that other partners should only complement African efforts. He went further to state that the resolution of conflicts should not be left to the Executive alone, rather, parliaments in the region needed to rise to the occasion and work with the Executive in their respective countries to bring lasting peace in the region. The President undertook to table the resolutions presented to him before his counterpart Heads of State in the region, that is the twelve mentioned countries, during the summit, he would call in the near future, in order to chart the way forward.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by indicating that Zambia will host the 14^th Plenary Assembly and therefore, our own Rt. Hon. Madam Speaker will assume the Presidency of the forum until the 15^th Plenary Assembly when she will hand over to the Speaker of the country that will host it. On this note, we ask for support from this Parliament to ensure that this conference is a success.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr: Kasandwe: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to second the Motion which has been ably moved by the delegation leader. Let me begin, from the outset, by informing this House that during the 13^th Plenary Assembly, there were elections held for the five committees of the conference.

Madam Speaker, as I am speaking, Zambia won two important positions during the elections. Hon. Brig-Gen. Sitwala scooped the position of Vice-President of the Committee on Peace and Security. The position of Vice-President for the Committee on Democracy and Good Governance was won by Hon. Sibeso Sefulo.

Ms Sefulo indicated assent.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, Hon. Fred Chaatila is a committee member of the Committee on Economic Development. Hon. Melesiana Phiri is also a Committee member of the Committee on Gender and Children Affairs. The hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu, Hon. Kasandwe is also a Committee member of the Committee on Humanitarian and Social Services.

Madam Speaker, secondly, as the mover said, I would like to emphasise the point that Zambia will host the 14^th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of FP-ICGLR next year between March and April. So, it is very important and critical for Parliament to prepare. How are we going to prepare? It is to ensure that the Committee Members attend all the remaining Committee meetings that will be held –

Mr Nkandu: Awa.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, in order for us to prepare adequately, it is very important that hon. Members attend the remaining Committee meetings that will be held between now and December.

Madam Speaker, how do you host an event when you have not been part of the Committee meetings? So, it is important for this Parliament to ensure it finds resources for the hon. Members to attend the remaining Committee meetings.

Madam Speaker, another important event is the general election which will be held in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), which the hon. Members should endeavour to attend and monitor.

Madam Speaker, looking at time, the last point I want to make is that we have learnt a lesson. When you look at the conflicts in the Great Lakes region, you see that once you lose peace, it is very difficult to restore. So, as parliamentarians, we should always endeavour to promote unity and peace amongst ourselves, especially in the manner we debate in this House.

Madam Speaker, I assure you that conflicts start in the mouth. The way you speak and interact can be a source of conflict. So, as I conclude, I just want to urge the hon. Members of Parliament that we should always endeavour to ensure that we maintain the peace we have today because it is very difficult to restore peace once it is lost.

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments in support of the adoption of the Report of the Zambian delegation to the 13^th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (FP-ICGLR).

Madam Speaker, I would like to start by commending your delegation and congratulating it for the positions our hon. Members were elected to during the 13^th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly which was held in South Sudan. We urge them to utilise the positions they have been elected to and bring a paradigm shift in the way we are managing issues of the Great Lakes Region conference.

Madam Speaker, it is just sad that this conference was held at the backdrop of the escalated conflict in the Republic of Sudan. Going forward, we want to see that Parliament, as recognised by the Articles of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (ICGLR), which recognises the forum of parliamentarians, becomes a centre stage of conflict resolution. We would want to see – this opportunity we have as the Zambian Parliament to host the upcoming 14^th Plenary –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1911 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 15^th June 2023.

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