Friday, 9^th June, 2023

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, ACTING HON. LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE, ON THE STATE OF THE ROAD IN MWINILUNGA

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Petauke Central, to present a matter of urgent public importance under Standing Order No. 134.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, I am asking for your protection.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, proceed. Which hon. Minister is your matter of urgent public importance directed at? Concisely state what the matter of urgent public importance is.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. The matter is directed at the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker, there was a serious accident yesterday between Kisasa and Mwinilunga, and the victims were rushed to the hospital. That road is a death trap.

Madam Speaker, the day before yesterday, when the hon. Member of Parliament from Chama asked about the road being worked on in Chama, the Acting hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development was very clear that we should take advantage of the increased Constituency Development Fund (CDF), and that the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama is supposed to use it.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, do not debate. State what the matter of urgent public importance is, and once you have done that, resume your seat. Do not debate.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, is the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House in order to not talk to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga and advise him to use the CDF to work on that road which is a death trap?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, yesterday, I gave guidance on what matter qualifies to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. It must be widespread and debatable. However, following the question which was based on the roads in the North-Western Province, there has been some discomfort about the state of the roads in the North-Western Province and the response that the Government provided.

Maybe just to give comfort to the people of the North-Western Province, the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House can issue a statement in the House on Wednesday next week to clarify the position of the Government on these roads, because the people of the North-Western Province need to be assured on what the Government is doing on these roads so that we can maintain harmony in the country. So, the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House can render a ministerial statement in this House on Wednesday next week on the state of the roads in the North-Western Province, especially that some accidents have occurred.

I believe that some buses cannot even go to Mwinilunga, as indicated by the hon. Member for Mwinilunga, who sent me a note the other day. Hon. Members wanted to debate but we could allow only so many hon. Members to debate because of time. We squander a lot of time on other peripheral issues and when it comes to substantive matters, we do not have sufficient time to exhaust the debates on those particular matters.

Thank you very much.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I have heard your counsel and the general concern on the roads in the North-Western Province. I want to preface my question with the issue of bus operators not going to –

Madam Speaker: Sorry, hon. Member for Mwinilunga, we are on matters of urgent public importance. I have guided on how matters can be raised. You state which hon. Minister the matter is being directed at and after that, precisely state what the matter of urgent public importance is. That way, we will be more efficient and we will manage our time properly. So, you can proceed. If it is on the roads in the North-Western Province, I have already guided on that. Maybe it could be another matter and if it is another matter, then you can proceed.

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, thank you for the counsel. My question is directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure –

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I do not know if the notes were not sent to hon. Members on how a matter should be raised. It should be raised as “Madam” or “Mr Speaker,” –

Mr Samakayi: I am raising –

Hon. Opposition Members: Sit down!

Madam Speaker: Let me just give guidance.

Hon. Member, you are supposed to start by saying “Madam” or “Mr Speaker, the matter I wish to raise is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President” or the hon. Minister responsible for that. After that, state the matter concisely and end by saying “Madam Speaker” or “Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance.” Do not debate.

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, the matter I am raising is directed at the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. The question is that bus operators have stopped going to Mwinilunga because of the bad state of the road. Is –

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: Is that countrywide?

Mr Samakayi: Is the Government looking at putting in place measures to ensure that bus operators start operating so that the movement of the people of Mwinilunga is restored?

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, if you listened to the earlier matter of urgent public importance that was raised by the hon. Member for Petauke Central, in my guidance, I referred to the issue that you have just raised. So, as the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House comes back to the House, he will be able to address that issue. So, please, do not be worried; it will be covered on Wednesday when the Acting hon. Leader of Government Business in the House comes back to the House. Just prepare your questions so that when the ministerial statement is issued, you can ask follow-up questions on that statement.

So, we can make progress and go to the next item.

_______

Mr Andeleki (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. Before I ask my question, on behalf of the people of Katombola Constituency and on behalf of the hon. Members on the right, I wish to congratulate our colleague, Hon. Emeldah Munashabantu, who will be getting married tomorrow.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Andeleki: I am a bearer of good news to the House, and I invite all my hon. Colleagues to join us tomorrow for this wedding. There are no cards for hon. Members; we are all invited. We are the owners of the wedding.

Interruptions

Mr Andeleki: Hon. Emeldah Munashabantu, Member of Parliament for Mapatizya Constituency.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ESTABLISHMENT OF BOARDING FACILITIES IN SOME SCHOOLS IN

KATOMBOLA CONSTITUENCY

280. Mr Andeleki asked the Minister of Education:

(a)     whether the Government has any plans to establish boarding facilities at some schools in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency in order to increase the number of learners benefiting from the Constituency Development Fund Bursary Scheme;

(b)     if so, which schools are earmarked for boarding facilities; and

(c)     when the project will commence.

Madam Speaker: Since the matter has been raised, may I take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Munashabantu …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: … on the wedding tomorrow. We can only wish her success. She is not here, but I am sure she will hear the message.

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga) (on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima)): Madam Speaker, –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Can we listen to the answer.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to establish boarding facilities at some schools in Katombola Parliamentary Constituency in order to increase the number of learners benefiting from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Bursary Scheme.

Madam Speaker, the schools earmarked to have boarding facilities include Nyawa, Kasensa, Kauwe, Makunka, Mukuni, Nguba and Kawewa.

Madam Speaker, the project will commence as soon as the funds are made available.

Madam Speaker, I have additional information because this question was submitted some time back. The House may wish to note that Musokotwane Secondary School recently completed the weekly boarding facility and it is in use. Out of the projects which were embarked on, the following have made progress regarding the weekly boarding facility, and surely, they will increase secondary school access:

1. Kasensa Secondary School is currently under construction and is about 95 per cent. However, the weekly boarding facility is completed and awaits the opening of the school;
2. Makunka Secondary School has commenced the construction of the weekly boarding facility;
3. Kawewa Secondary School Project is scheduled to commence before the end of 2023 under the Zambia Education Enhancement Project (ZEEP) funded by the World Bank. There will only be twenty-five schools with weekly boarding facilities out of the 120 projects and they will be equally distributed amongst the ten provinces;
4. the project in Nguba is yet another project being constructed under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) using the community mode; and

1. the project in Moomba was also approved to access funding from the CDF and is scheduled to start before the year ends.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Andeleki: Madam Speaker, Katombola is destined to have a number of boarding secondary schools and I thank the Government for such a decision.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, when exactly will the project start so that the people of Katombola can know and appreciate that the Government is about to carry it out? What is the timeframe of the project?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I was clear when responding that the Government has made progress and I outlined some of the projects in the constituency which are under construction. Others have already been completed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I note the hon. Minister’s response to the question. Some of the challenges that we are facing under Government assurances are that answers are provided and nothing is done, and people keep coming back with the same questions.

Madam Speaker, are the answers that the hon. Minister is providing been provided with due consultation from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning or are they just responses in the air? I think that is what we have been getting in the recent past.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, this is the position of the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers he has given. I know that the crisis of boarding facilities in Katombola is representative of what is prevailing countrywide. In the short-term –

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi! Just a moment. There is an indication for a point of order from Hon. Mufalali. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition in the House –

Madam Speaker: Maybe you can indicate which part of Standing Order No. 65.

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 (2).

Madam Speaker: Proceed. What is the point of order?

Mr Mufalali: Madam Speaker, the point of order is on the Leader of the Opposition in the House who is claiming that the Government has been bringing statements to this House that are not speaking to each other, therefore, making this House or the hon. Ministers or the Government look like they are disorganised.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to allege without facts before this House that some statements being brought to this House are not co-ordinated?

I submit, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Opposition was asking about Government assurances and he just wanted the Acting hon. Minister to confirm whether he had consulted the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning with regard to the answers he is giving. Of course, it is wrong to assume that the hon. Ministers are working in isolation and that they do not consult. As I stated yesterday, we should not expect hon. Ministers to give answers that only satisfy us. That is the Government’s position on the matter and if there is any issue, hon. Members are free to ask more questions and provide proof on the Table of the House to show that indeed, hon. Ministers are not co-ordinated. That way, the statement will be justified, but without proof, it is difficult to hold the hon. Ministers accountable.

So, hon. Leader of the Opposition, as you challenge, it is better to state the specifics of how the Cabinet Ministers appear disconnected, then, they will be directed to deal with that matter. Otherwise, in terms of guidance, hon. Ministers should make sure that when they are answering questions, that is the position of the Government on the matter. However, if we have evidence to show that that is not the correct position, then it is up to us as Members to produce that evidence to show that indeed, hon. Ministers are not co-ordinated. That way, we will have order in the House.

May the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi continue.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, at the point I was disrupted, I was asking the Acting hon. Minister of Education a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, I was saying that the Free Education Policy has really worked and the number of learners across the country has increased, just like in Katombola. Now, considering the fact that the desire for boarding facilities is everywhere and not only in Katombola, is there a way the ministry can waive the guidelines that grant a school to be transformed from a day school into a boarding school so that as a short-term measure, most constituencies can upgrade day schools into boarding schools to enable us manage the crisis that is there before the construction of the eight boarding facilities, the hon. Minister mentioned, in Katombola.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, there are laid down procedures for us to transform day schools into boarding schools. So, we will be able to follow that and establish what the hon. Member has just asked.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Sorry. Before you proceed, hon. Member for Chinsali, there is an indication for a request for a point of order from the hon. Member for Pambashe. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I have been indicating and thank you for recognising me.

Madam Speaker, this is in relation to our Standing Order No. 51 read together with Standing Orders No. 52 and 53 and in reference to Standing Order No. 83, which gives specific proceedings of Business in the House. It clearly states that once a matter has been considered, it cannot be brought back in the same Meeting unless after a period of six months. This is in relation to the directive that the matter concerning the North-Western Province will be debated next week on Tuesday when this matter was debated this week.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious guidance according to the Standing Orders.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

That matter came in as a question. Now following the response that was given, just like on the issue of the K65 million, there has been an outcry. So, it is important that the Government comes back with a clear position on the matter. You are the same hon. Members who are raising the matter and if we say no, the matter should come after six months, you will complain, and the people out there want to know the position. However, I used my discretion because it does not qualify to be a matter of urgent public importance, like I did with regard to the issue of the K65 million. I am also a Zambian and I am listening to what people are saying. So, when I hear that there is discomfort in the manner in which a matter has been handled, I think I am compelled to ask the relevant ministry to come back with an answer so that people’s concerns are brought to rest. So, it is from that that I made that decision.

May the hon. Member for Chinsali continue.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the responses that he has been giving and it is good that boarding facilities are going to be established for the people of Katombola.

Madam Speaker, in response to the question, the hon. Minister said that the boarding facilities will be established the moment funds are made available. Does he have an idea as to when the funds will be made available? Is it next year or 2025? Is the hon. Minister in a position to indicate when the Government is foreseeing the funds to be available?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, hon. Members must pay much attention when I am answering questions. The first answer I gave was submitted some time back, but I also gave additional information regarding what is going on in Katombola Constituency. I said that the boarding facility in Kasensa is currently under construction and it is at 95 per cent. I further said the weekly boarding facility is completed and awaits the opening of the school. Makunka Secondary School has commenced the construction of the weekly boarding facility. Kawewa Secondary School Project is scheduled to commence before the end of 2023 under the ZEEP funded by the World Bank. I also said that the project in Nguba is yet another project being constructed using the CDF using the community mode. Lastly, I said that the project in Moomba was also approved to access funding from the CDF and is scheduled to start before the end of the year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, it is important to listen to the answers that are being given so that you do not keep on repeating questions whose answers have already been provided.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Katombola, knows very well that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has been increased to K28.3 million and many hon. Members of Parliament can use this money to solve many problems, including building boarding houses.

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister not think that the failure by the Government to fund CDF for quarter one and quarter two in 2023, will keep on motivating questions such as the one that was asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola, knowing that in quarter two of 2023, the Government has only released K3 million out of the possibility of K14.2 million for CDF to solve our problems in the constituencies?

Madam Speaker: The only problem I see is that you are now bringing in the funding of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for which the Acting hon. Minister of Education is not responsible. So, that question has caught him by surprise. He will not be able to provide the required answer. If you want to ask a question concerning the failure by the Government to fund CDF, please, direct it to the relevant ministry so that it can provide an answer.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to pose a follow-up question on the question posed by the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola, which is a very good question.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, when responding to the question posed by the Member of Parliament for Itezhi-Tezhi, Hon. Twaambo Mutinta, indicated that there are guidelines put in place to guide the transformation of day secondary schools into boarding secondary schools. May the Minister, in summary, guide the House on the guidelines to transform day secondary schools into boarding secondary schools?

Madam Speaker: I do not know if the Minister is ready to answer that question.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that question. I will give a detailed report.

Madam Speaker: He is the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwacha. He is not a Minister. You have crowned him as Minister. He is not yet a Minister. He is a Member of Parliament, for now.

Hon. Members: He was!

Mr Mubanga: He was.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Former!

Mr Mubanga: Former, yes.

Madam Speaker, we will come up with a detailed report and we will guide the House later on, on the procedures.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: This will be the last question. I do not know whether to call it an afterthought. I had closed, but there is an indication from the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to ask a follow-up question.

Madam Speaker, indeed, I am elated by the Government assurance provided by the Acting hon. Minister of Education of improving the said schools into boarding facilities. However, I am taken aback that among the 120 schools earmarked to be built throughout the country, the majority of them are day schools. Did the Government happen to have a change of plan for those schools because we heard from the outset that they were going to be boarding schools? The question seems to be taking a little bit of a diversion, but it is related to the prevailing problem of not having boarding facilities throughout the country.

Madam Speaker: The question is constituency-based. Since the hon. Minister is acting, I do not know if he will be able to provide an answer to that question.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I do not have a detailed answer to that question, but I will be able to come back and inform the House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Member: When!

Mr Mubanga: Soon.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you ask questions, ask supplementary questions arising from the question. This was a constituency-based question. So, if we make it too open, it will be difficult for the hon. Minister to answer because he will be taken by surprise.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chienge, where are you? Is it you speaking?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Sorry, the voice sounded like my sister from Chienge.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Okay, we will find out who was speaking. It is better to own up than to be told you were the one who was speaking when you were not supposed to. Let us make progress.

CONSTRUCTION OF COMMUNICATION TOWER IN CHULUNGOMA WARD

281. Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a communication tower in Chulungoma Ward in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented;
3. under which mobile network provider the tower will operate;
4. what the estimated cost of the project is; and
5. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala) (on behalf of the Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati)): Madam Speaker, the answers to the questions are as follows –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Can we listen to the answers. There is too much talking. Let us quietly follow the proceedings.

Proceed, hon. Minister.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government has plans to construct communication towers in all parts of the country that have no access to communication including Chulungoma Ward, in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency. In the last quarter of 2022, the Government undertook a detailed gap analysis and the results showed that Chulungoma indeed needs a communication tower. With the results of the gap analysis, working with hon. Members of Parliament, the Government is undertaking the planning of the construction of towers countrywide in a phased approach. The plan has revealed that some services will require optimisation, moving of antennas to change direction, and sometimes relocating towers.

Madam Speaker, the plans will start being implemented in the fourth quarter of this year.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that any mobile network operator can operate on the tower once constructed. The Government has continued to encourage all operators to co-locate on the towers.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the project will be known once an assessment has been undertaken at the point of project acquisition.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government has committed to constructing communication towers, and these projects are being informed by a detailed coverage gap analysis and implemented in a phased approach.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the detailed response to the question posed by the hon. Member for Lubansenshi.

Madam Speaker, you may recall that through your office, hon. Members of Parliament from all the 156 constituencies were requested, by the Ministry of Technology and Science, to submit lists of priority areas where communication towers could be erected. Up to now, we have not received any communication from that ministry. Taking advantage of this question asked by the hon. Member for Lubansenshi, especially that he is asking about erecting communication towers in that part of the constituency, when is the Ministry of Technology and Science getting back to the hon. Members of Parliament on the lists submitted to it?

Madam Speaker: I know that the erection of towers is a cross cutting issue, but this one is a constituency-based question, and the hon. Minister is acting. I do not know if he will have the answer.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I do not think I have an answer to that question at the moment. However, I assure the House that we will be able to come with the actual information next week.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There is too much talking.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated that the Government intends to erect towers in the whole country. Is there a specific date when that will be rolled out?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chienge, the question that you have asked is similar to the one that was asked by the hon. Member for Bwacha, and the hon. Minister indicated that he does not have that information. So, let us concentrate on the issue that has been raised concerning Chulungoma Ward in Lubansenshi.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers that he has provided and the people of Chulungoma in Lubansenshi Constituency want to see that tower erected, as the hon. Minister has indicated that it will be done in the fourth quarter of this year.

Madam Speaker, the people of Chulungoma Ward in Lubansenshi Constituency want to categorically know if the ministry has set aside money in the 2023 Budget so that they can be confident that indeed come fourth quarter, they will have the tower.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, since I have already stated that this project will be implemented in the fourth quarter of this year, funds should be available to implement it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for this chance to pose a follow-up question. Before I do, may I just take this opportunity to wish my young brother, the hon. Member for Chinsali, a happy birthday.

Mr Mukosa: Thank you, my brother.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Katuta: Happy Birthday!

Mr Kampyongo: Continue working for the people of Chinsali young man.

Madam Speaker, having interacted with Zamtel, one of the parastatal network providers, I realise that it is costly to operate a communication tower in a ward such as Chulungoma because it first has to be erected and later on there are operational costs. The business that could be expected in Chulungoma Ward, as far as the network provider is concerned, could be much lower than the costs involved in erecting communication towers in that locality. We have a responsibility to provide access to communication to our people. What deliberate measures has the Government put in place to strike a balance between providing a tower in Chulungoma Ward where there might not be good business but a need to provide access to communication for our people and the much-needed service, and providing business for the network providers?

Madam Speaker: Happy birthday hon. Member for Chinsali. I can see you are smiling. Next time you have to bring a cake.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Not just wishing people a happy birthday without the necessary tools. That is, of course, on a lighter note.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu that we have to provide access to communication. The Government is working on strategies of providing communication towers so that other private operators or, indeed, Zamtel can take advantage of the reduced cost of erecting them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the people of Nangula, Stoya and Mabili wards in Luena Constituency are interested in this programme that will commence in the fourth quarter of this year. Given that some of the constituencies will not be reachable by the end of the year, can the ministry confirm that through its phased approach, it will prioritise constituencies such as Luena Constituency so that they are covered in the first phase of the implementation of this programme of constructing communication towers?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Luena, as I previously guided the other hon. Members who asked supplementary questions, this is a constituency-based question relating to Chulungoma Ward in Lubansenshi. So, you can direct those other questions to the substantive hon. Minister who is well versed with those issues.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Speaker, I just want to seek clarification from the Acting hon. Minister. I noted that in his response, he indicated that the project will be implemented in the fourth quarter of this year. Then when he was addressing part (d) of the question, he indicated that the project cost will be established at the time of project acquisition. How is he going to give an assurance that the project will commence when he does not know its cost because there is a possibility that the project cost can turn out to be more expensive than what he may be anticipating?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, from experience, we have established that one tower will cost between US$170,000 to US$200,000. So, we are within our budget.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, of recent, we have heard about an American billionaire’s interest in relation to the licence that is being given regarding connectivity in this country. Do we see the ward in question benefitting in the shortest possible time when that licence is granted?

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the issue of Starlink Company providing satellite communication to our country is still at its infancy. Once the details are finalised, we will get back to the House. However, I assure the hon. Member that this will be able to cover the whole country and in future, we may not use communication towers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Madam Speaker, firstly, I congratulate my sister-in-law, Hon. Munashabantu, on her wedding tomorrow as she is getting married to a Tumbuka speaking man like myself. I also offer to take my honourable brother, the Member of Parliament for Chinsali, for lunch, today being his birthday. I will take him for lunch.

Madam Speaker: That is really goodwill from one brother to a sister and another brother. Please, do not over eat.

Laughter

CONSTRUCTION OF A HOSPITAL IN LUMEZI DISTRICT

282. Mr Munir Zulu asked the Minister of Health:

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a hospital in Lumezi District;

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
2. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo)): Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to construct a hospital in Lumezi District.

Madam Speaker, as stated earlier, the Government has no immediate plans to construct a hospital in Lumezi, therefore, part (b) of the question falls off.

Madam Speaker, the Government is committed to providing equity of access to quality and affordable health care services as close to the people as possible. To achieve this, the Government has prioritised the completion of the ongoing construction of health facilities countrywide before embarking on the construction of new health facilities. The criterion for the distribution of new health facilities will be based on equity, distance, population and epidemiological factors among others.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the people of Lumezi are not children of a lesser God, but are just like any other children of a greater God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac.

Madam Speaker, yesterday, this House heard the criterion that is used to build or construct a level one hospital and the number mentioned was a population of 8,000. There are more than 100,000 people and six chiefdoms in Lumezi. Unfortunately, the Acting hon. Minister has no chiefdom, like ours in Lumezi.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, can you withdraw that; it is not necessary. Withdraw that statement about the chiefdom.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it. Taking advantage of this little moment I have to speak in a space where the shrinking democratic levels are on the rise –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

This is not time for debating. Resume your seat.

Mr Munir Zulu resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: This is not time for debating. It is time to ask supplementary questions. This question about a hospital in Lumezi is your question, so, those issues that you are bringing up do not arise. If you want to discuss about the shrinking democratic space in the country, you can move a Motion. There is time for Motions on Wednesdays, which people are not taking advantage of, then those issues can be debated. However, please, stick to the question and ask a supplementary question. You may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, it is so painful to be sent here and to be told an answer that there are no plans to construct a hospital for a population of 100,000 plus people. We rely on the mission hospital that is managed by the Catholic Church. Is the message from the Acting hon. Minister to the people of Lumezi – in simple terms, do you detest us that much that you cannot give us a hospital?

Madam Speaker: Ah, please, the language. Let us promote peace and unity. We are ‘One Zambia, One Nation’. The manner in which we are asking questions is indicating that we are looking at these issues in a different way. As leaders, we should be promoting peace.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, without being unnecessarily dramatic, I would like to address some of the matters raised by the hon. Member for Lumezi. To start with, I wish to address the good people of Lumezi in the proper context of what is on the ground, rather than making it seem that they are orphaned as has been suggested.

Madam Speaker, Lumezi District has a catchment population to be exact of 131,510 people, and it has twenty-seven health facilities. The district is serviced by one first level hospital, St. Joseph Mission Hospital, as mentioned by the hon. Member. However, the hon. Member omitted to inform the people of Zambia and in particular the people of Lumezi that this level one hospital is in fact supported by the Government. So, the suggestion that the people of Lumezi are in some way or the other less looked after by the Government than those in other districts is not, with due respect, correct. I emphasis that there are twenty-seven health facilities in the district, one mini-hospital at Mwasemphangwe and twenty-five other health posts as mentioned. Currently, there is a second mini-hospital under construction.

Madam Speaker, the picture that the hon. Member wishes to paint is not entirely accurate. What I have put across on the Floor of the House is what is prevailing. As stated in my substantive answer, the fact that it is not a priority at this time to build another level one hospital in the district does not in any way entail that there are no plans to do so. Other areas that were previously neglected need to be serviced so as to bring equity across the country. I think that is the prudent thing to do.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: From what I heard from the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi, I thought there was no hospital at all in Lumezi, yet there are twenty-seven health facilities. So, let us ask questions in context.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that there is a level one mission hospital in Lumezi. Looking at the vastness of Lumezi, which shares a boundary with my constituency on the far western side, is the Government considering upgrading that level one hospital, since it is a Catholic hospital supported by the Government, into a district hospital so that if possible, it can be expanded and it can cover different needs of the people of Lumezi?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, the current plans, as already mentioned, are to complete the construction of a second mini-hospital, which of course takes into consideration the geographic requirements of the district. It is suffice to also mention that St. Joseph Mission Hospital has a bed capacity of 225 beds and, therefore, is positioned for the time being to take care of the urgent needs of the people in the district.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I thank the Acting hon. Minister. His responses unfortunately are not factual.

Madam Speaker, I spent personal resources to renovate the mortuary at St. Joseph Mission Hospital. Again, the mortuary is down and we are looking for resources to rehabilitate it. For the past two months, we been offering a service to the people of Lundazi and Chasefu; it is a fact. Bodies are taken to Lumezi, yet the traditional way is that the people of Lumezi are supposed to take bodies to Lundazi because it is more urban, and there are banks and better facilities there than in Lumezi, but the opposite is happening. I love the hon. Minister’s eloquence and he mentioned Mwansempangwe. Where is the new hospital being built? Is it in Chief Mwanya’s area or in Chief Mwansempangwe’s area or in Chief Chikomeni’s area or in Chief Zimwanda’s area or in Kazembe’s area? Let us be factual. Let us have an honest conversation. Where is that hospital being built, where I do not know of?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, to start with, it is very unethical to suggest that for some reason or the other, I am not speaking from a factual or truthful position.

Hon. Opposition Members: Answer the question.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Relax.

Madam Speaker, it is necessary on the Floor of the House for us to observe decorum. The second mini-hospital is under construction at Kazembe. I am sure the learned – oh, not learned – …

Laughter

Mr Haimbe, SC.: … the hon. Member for Lumezi is aware of this fact. There is nothing in the responses that I have given that suggest that there is an unfactual position that has been taken by the Government. I note in particular that the hon. Member has not given any information contrary to that given by me on the Floor of the House which provides the necessary statistics to the effect that there are twenty-seven health facilities.

Madam Speaker, a new issue has been brought up regarding the mortuary and, indeed, I can give further statistics. The mortuary currently has three units and, therefore, it is not equal to the requirements of the people in terms of the preservation of the deceased persons. However, the hon. Member did not mention on the Floor of the House that in fact there has been an application made for additional mortuary units under the disaster component of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and this is being undertaken. Therefore, as far as the challenge of sufficient mortuary space is concerned, it is under consideration and is being attended to. I must hasten to mention that that is the essence of the CDF, the innovation under the New Dawn Government, where K28.3 million has been put for community use and this is unprecedented.

Rev. Katuta: It has not reached.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: I note that certain hon. Members of Parliament are suggesting that it has not reached, yet they were the first to receive CDF project vehicles when they were being handed over.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, again, we must debate from a factual position.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, do not debate while seated. That is why there is a system; you indicate and you will be recognised and given an opportunity to debate.

Hon. Member for Chienge, this style of debating while you are seated is not acceptable. Please, desist from debating while seated.

Mr Munir Zulu indicated to speak.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lumezi, you have exhausted your chances. Let us give others an opportunity.

Mr Munir Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Do you want to raise a point of order?

Mr Munir Zulu: Yes.

Madam Speaker: No, no, I think let us ask supplementary questions. Sometimes we tend to use points of order to contradict or respond to the answer that has been given. Let us hear you; what is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I appreciate for permitting me to raise this point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Speaker, we must be factual in what we say. Lumezi has not received the vehicle for CDF and the hon. Minister has deliberately decided to mislead himself, the nation and the House.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

First of all, you have cited Standing Order No. 65. Standing Order No. 65 (1) has parts a and b, Standing Order No. 65 (2) has parts a, b, c, d, e and f, and there is Standing Order No. 65 (3). You have not given particulars of which part of Standing Order No. 65 you are referring to and I said that let us not use points of order to contradict what the hon. Minister has said. So, please, if you have any concerns, you can put in another question, which can be addressed. Can you resume your seat. Let us make progress.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, before I even say the Standing Order I want to refer to, I am asking for your protection. When I stand, these hon. Members (pointing at some hon. Government Members) who sit here say ha, ha, ha, ha.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, just on that point alone, can you resume your seat. Can we be serious. Can we make progress. The hon. Member for Chama North.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, Lumezi was part of Lundazi not long ago, and it was conferred with a district status recently. In view of what Hon. Zulu has asked, does the hon. Minister not think that it is important that the Government considers building a district hospital in Lumezi since it is a new district?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, there is a misconception or perhaps a misunderstanding of the language used in the response. The answer was that there are no immediate plans. That does not exclude the possibility of there being such a facility constructed in the middle to distant future. The issue is that there are no immediate plans.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, there are two reports which we need to consider and I know that hon. Members would want to debate in detail on some of the issues raised in the reports. So, I will just allow two more questions then we will move to the next item.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, having heard what the other hon. Members are asking and the hon. Minister’s responses, and since I come from that district and Lumezi being a neighbour of Lundazi, I feel very sad.

Madam Speaker, we cannot be moving bodies from Lundazi and Lumezi to Chasefu. We cannot just live like that. My question to the hon. Minister is: Is he in a position to visit Lumezi so that he can be able to get actual facts, because it seems he is getting misinformation from the technocrats?

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, the fact of the matter is that there is no misinformation. There is not any. I think what is happening here is that the hon. Members are speaking at cross purposes. I did admit on the Floor of the House, a second ago, that there are only three units which are insufficient in terms of mortuary space specifically, and that this issue has been recognised. By the way, it has been going on for more than the period that we have had the mandate to run the affairs of this country.

Madam Speaker, nonetheless, as a conscience Government that is concerned with the wellbeing of our people, including, and not least, the people of Lumezi, we have said let us find a mechanism to resolve this longstanding problem. In this regard, the mechanism has been provided through the disaster component of the CDF that has been availed to that particular constituency and to the district.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore, wonder where this narrative to the effect that the Government is not caring enough to address this concern is coming from, when the answers have been very precise and clear. We are not speaking from without as the Government. We have seen similar CDF projects elsewhere in the country. Recently, similar units were commissioned in another part of the country. So, we have the will to attend to this matter and the money is available through CDF.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Nyimba.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, permit me to say this. When you hear us, as Members of Parliament from the Eastern Province crying, just know that it is because of the population we have. It surpasses the facilities we have in the province. You can see the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi is touching his head because basically in Kazembe, there is no such construction. What is important –

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just ask the supplementary question. We do not have much time.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, looking at the information that is coming from the technocrats and seeing what is happening on the ground and then hearing the hon. Minister answering in a such a way, we know that the hon. Minister has been misled. Does the Government have any way of punishing those who give the hon. Minister information which is misleading to the nation and to us as a House?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the hon. Minister has clearly stated, if we were listening, that what he is giving is the position on the ground. So that issue of punishing technocrats does not arise.

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: On whom?

Mr Chewe interjected.

Madam Speaker: I was still talking and you stand and raise a point of order on me?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Let us follow procedure. Furthermore, on the issues of the Ministry of Health, let us engage the substantive hon. Minister on all these issues. It will be helpful if we engage her. However, what I have heard is that there are hospitals in Lumezi and there are plans to build more hospitals. I think it is just the issue of priority in terms of which area has suffered in order to cover up to reach the equity that the Government is trying to reach. So, let us make progress.

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, you wanted to raise a point of order. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order, which is directed at the Acting hon. Minister of Health. This is in line with Standing Order No. 65 (b), which states as follows:

“ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Madam Speaker, is the Acting hon. Minister of Health in order to mislead himself, your hon. Members of Parliament and the general public that K28.3 million is there, which the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi can utilise to sort out issues, especially where the construction of a level one hospital in Lumezi is concerned? Is he in order to mislead the nation that K28.3 million is available?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as I indicated earlier on, we should not use points of order to challenge what the hon. Minister is stating on the Floor of the House. He is referring to the fact that – maybe let me give him the opportunity to explain that point.

Mr Haimbe, SC.: Madam Speaker, no sooner had I made the point that it is important for us to listen carefully to one another and understand the nuances of what is said in speech, than this point of order is raised.

Madam Speaker, it is a fact, and hon. Members did debate the 2023 Budget, that there is an allocation of K28.3 million towards each constituency under the CDF. That is a fact. Whether or not disbursement has taken place, and we know that is done per quarter, is a completely different story from the fact that these funds were debated and the estimates of expenditure were approved by this very House. This was in the Yellow Book that the hon. Member had, unless he did not read it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us not divert from the substantive question to issues of funding of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Let us make progress.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON YOUTH, SPORT AND CHILD MATTERS

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 5^th June, 2023.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 198, your Committee considered a topical issue, entitled: “The plight of circumstantial children in Zambia”.

Madam Speaker, your Committee visited Luapula Province, Copperbelt Province and Central Province. Considering that hon. Members have read the report, allow me to comment on some of the key findings from your Committee’s engagement with various stakeholders on the topical issue.

Madam Speaker, one key finding was that apart from Kamfinsa Correctional Facility on the Copperbelt that provides separate accommodation for pregnant women and mothers with circumstantial children, the rest of the female correctional facilities visited by your Committee do not provide separate accommodation. This situation does not only expose the children to violence which is perpetuated by the inmates, but also exposes them to communicable diseases.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, your Committee strongly urges the Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to consider constructing separate cell blocks specifically for pregnant women and mothers with circumstantial children. This will protect the children from contracting communicable diseases and also provide a conducive environment and space for mothers to give ample attention and affection to their children.

Madam Speaker, your Committee was informed that most of the correctional facilities do not have access to funding from the Government to meet the specific needs of the circumstantial children. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, to urgently ensure that specific funding is allocated to all female correctional facilities with circumstantial children in Zambia for purposes of meeting the needs of circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that all female correctional facilities do not have motor vehicles, to among other things, urgently ferry inmates and circumstantial children to hospitals for medical attention. Your Committee learnt that in some instances, the officers at the correctional facilities either use their own personal vehicles or vehicles belonging to well-wishers.

Madam Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Government should ensure that motor vehicles for all correctional facilities in the country are urgently procured to respond to the needs of mothers and circumstantial children. Further, your Committee discovered that circumstantial children do not have access to early childhood education. Apart from a few classrooms put up by well-wishers and stakeholders in some of the correctional facilities visited by your Committee, most of the correctional facilities did not have any classrooms for early childhood learning which makes it a challenge for circumstantial children to have access to education. In view of this, your Committee urges the Government to urgently put in place measures that will ensure that children in correctional facilities have access to early childhood education.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to place on record your Committee’s gratitude to all the stakeholders who appeared before it and tendered in both written and oral submissions.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also wishes to thank you, the Clerk of the National Assembly and all the staff for the guidance and support provided and rendered to it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Miyutu: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this time to second the Motion which has been ably moved by the powerful Chairperson, Hon. Sydney Mushanga, the Member of Parliament for Bwacha.

Madam Speaker, I understand that hon. Members have perused through the report of your Committee and have understood some facts which have been stated in there. I will merely indicate one or two matters which the Chairperson might not have highlighted in his submission to the House and the general public as a whole.

Madam Speaker, circumstantial children are one of the smallest grouping in his country and your Committee opted to undertake a study on them. Generally, by 15^th November, 2022, there were only seventy-eight circumstantial children in correctional facilities. So, it is a very small group of Zambians who have found themselves in those difficult situations.

Madam Speaker, your Committee discovered that circumstantial children are not fed on a substantial diet. We all know that children are vulnerable human beings who require much attention, care, love and kindness, but alas, circumstantial children are not fed on a complete diet. We were told that these children eat what the inmates are fed, meaning the diet is not complete. So, your Committee urges the Government to look into the issue of the diet of the children in correctional facilities. It should not only cater for the inmates, but for these children as well.

Madam Speaker, it is also known that even in the new Act, the Children’s Code Act No. 12 of 2022, this section of the community is not well catered for. Generally, the Act looks at children, but not specifically circumstantial children. So, your Committee urges the Government to relook this Act so that it includes these children. They should be catered for prominently and not sidelined as mere children in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I will not delve much into the report because I believe hon. Members had time to go through what is contained in the report. At this moment, let me thank the Members of your Committee for their participation and the Chairperson. I also thank the Office of the Clerk for providing the support to enable your Committee undertaken this rare exercise.

Madam Speaker, I also thank you for enabling your Committee to successfully and effectively undertake its mandate.

With those few words, I second the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I notice that the Children’s Code Act was passed recently and I am surprised that there are other issues that were not taken into consideration. When we are looking at the various Bills that are brought before the House for enactment, it is important that as Members of Parliament, we give our input in these Bills so that we do not have a situation where an Act is passed and immediately, we think of amending it. That is just a general comment.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to make a few comments on the Motion to adopt the report of your Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters ably moved by Hon. Sidney Mushanga and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central.

Madam Speaker, let me make our dear listeners out there who are following the debates understand who circumstantial children are. Circumstantial children are children who have found themselves in correctional facilities, formerly prisons, by virtue of their parents being offenders and incarcerated. Some women go into correctional facilities whilst expecting and as they are serving their sentences, they give birth, and the law permits that those children are supposed to be in correctional facilities up to the age of five. After that, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services or the guardians or relatives to the parents of those children take up the responsibility. However, like the hon. Member for Kalabo Central rightly said, I think there could have been an omission to not factor these children in the Children’s Code Bill, when we were considering it, because they are indeed a very vulnerable group of children.

Madam Speaker, of course, the number of circumstantial children is growing and there are some children who might not have relatives to get them when they go beyond the age of five, and that becomes a challenge. I am glad the hon. Minister is here. In view of the paradigm shift in offender management from punitive incarceration in prisons to correctional programmes of managing offenders, we can probably start factoring the needs of circumstantial children because they need education. They are innocent and are only in correctional facilities because of the circumstances that they found themselves in. So, as the Government builds new facilities, it will be prudent for it to see how it can provide facilities for these children as they are growing because a child’s moral campus is defined at a tender age from one to five and five to ten. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to see how the correctional service can intensify the programmes to cater for circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, as regards the aspect of health, I know that most correctional facilities have health facilities that are meant for the inmates but the desire is for circumstantial children to also have their own facilities, which might be a challenge. However, arrangements can be made to use the same facilities which are there. The danger is that the children are growing with a group of people who are confined and have offended society, and you just do not know how their mindsets will be shaped. So, it is very important to take a deliberate focus on these children.

Madam Speaker, I commend your Committee for selecting this vulnerable group of children during its tour of duty and its recommendations are worth noting. I think the hon. Minister will do justice and will appreciate the recommendations made by your Committee, and will see how they can be factored in the new paradigm shift of offender management under the correctional service.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker,

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to support the report presented on the Floor of the House by the hon. Member for Bwacha and seconded by Hon. Chinga Miyutu, the Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central.

Madam Speaker, your Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Affairs went on to study the plight of circumstantial children in Zambia in line with the Zambia Correctional Service Act No. 37 of 2021 that establishes correctional facilities in Zambia. As defined by Hon. Kampyongo, circumstantial children are those children who are four years and below, who go into a correctional facility by virtue of their mothers being incarcerated.

Madam Speaker, the issue surrounding this matter was that there are seventy-eight circumstantial children in Zambia. I am glad that your Committee indeed took time to look at this matter and Zambia enacted the Children’s Code Act No.12 of 2022, which takes care of all issues affecting children in Zambia. The issues were harmonised and the Children’s Code Act actually does take care of circumstantial children as well in terms of protection, welfare and their rights. We are now supposed to be dealing with issues of co-ordination and implementation considering that a number of units in the country are still understanding how to apply this Act.

Madam Speaker, the issues that were raised include infrastructure. I second your Committee’s findings or recommendation that specific facilities must be built. As we build new infrastructure, we must put up separate space for circumstantial children so that their mothers can have their own space in what we may call a normal society or open society. Let me further recommend that maybe, correctional facilities can pilot community-based rehabilitation measures so circumstantial mothers can be imprisoned within the community and be able to interact, and circumstantial children can grow up understanding the community behaviours and the like.

Madam Speaker, in line with the Bangkok rules or the gender needs of women, we have seen that some of the children under circumstantial care are actually imitating the lives of their mothers and what they see around the prisons. Therefore, community-based imprisonment is what would be the best for us to build sound minds and attend to the physical and physiological needs of these children because that is what matters as they grow up in society. Their physiological needs need to be taken care of because they are very important for a human being.

Madam Speaker, as we know, our children grow the best at their youngest age, and that is when the brain develops. Whatever happens at that stage actually has an impact on a human being later in life. It is, therefore, important that we attend to the physiological needs by implementing community-based imprisonment or correctional care so that circumstantial children grow up in a community, have a loving family, parental and community care, and access many other services that we all enjoy in our communities so much, and do not pick up the behaviours that happen in the prisons.

Madam Speaker, the other matter that I want to talk about is the nutritional and dietary care of the children under circumstantial care. We found that these children were not feeding properly and this could again affect their future given the issue of malnutrition that we are also addressing as a country. It is crucial that these children, and their mothers, are supported because some of them are still breastfeeding and whatever the mother is taking is what comes out in the milk for the child. It is, therefore, important that the Zambia Correctional Service, working with the Nutritional Commission of Zambia, designs a nutritional package to ensure that there is mandated dietary care for children under circumstantial care, including their mothers, so that they can get adequate nutrition to avoid stunting, and other measures –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Where are the Whips? Can they lead by example and do their job because we have to be very punctual.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Speaker, thank you so much and welcome to this session.

Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was talking about nutrition or dietary issues affecting circumstantial children. Speaking on behalf of the Parliamentary Caucus on Children which I chair here at Parliament, we have put dietary or nutritional care for all children in Zambia as one of our priority issues. We have taken note of this challenge in this report, concerning the children under circumstantial care, and we recommended that a dietary package be designed by the Zambia Correctional Service to ensure that children under circumstantial care, together with their mothers, are given adequate nutrition in order for them to grow up into good citizens and avoid other problems which we are facing us as a country such as stunting or malnutrition of some adults and children.

Madam Speaker, the legal framework was fully covered in this report in terms of the Zambia Correctional Service Act as well as child related Acts, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child and the Children’s Code Act, which has been fully domesticated in the country. Recently, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services also launched statutory and non-statutory guidelines on community management on such issues. We encourage the Zambia Correctional Service to work and co-ordinate very well with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to ensure that circumstantial children are supported fully because the legal and policy framework is adequate. There are might be a few gaps here and there but it is adequate. When we talk about education, early childhood education is everywhere in the country. It is supposed to cover every child in the country and not leave out those who are under circumstantial care. When we talk about Zambia being a signatory to the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), which most parliamentarians will learn about tomorrow, we are talking about leaving no one behind. So, when we talk about leaving no one behind, we are saying all children, be it in Mbabala, Isoka or anywhere, must not be left behind. So, those children under circumstantial care deserve early childhood education at the nearest institution.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your time is up.

Mr Munsanje: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Speaker, I know that many issues have been covered by my colleagues, but according to the Prisons Act No. 37 of 2022, mothers who go into correctional service facilities with their children or give birth there, need to stay with their children. It is on this premise that I encourage our Government to seriously look into this because as we have heard, circumstantial children within the country range from seventy-five to eighty according to the statistics by Action Aid, and I appreciate the report that has been presented on the Floor of the House by your Committee.

Madam Speaker, there is a need to ensure there is proper infrastructure so that the mother and the child below the age of five are cared for. The mover of the Motion as well as the seconder spoke about the need for early childhood education, and I want to say that we, as the New Dawn Government, have underscored the provision of free education for all children in the whole country, and that is what we said. We said that when we come into power, we would ensure that education is free for every child in Zambia. We meant just that and that has been actualised …

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Ms Kasune: … under the New Dawn Government. So, we see no reason children who are less than hundred should not be given the same opportunity to have early childhood education as well as those who may advance.

Madam Speaker, it is said that the greatness of a nation is judged by the way it takes care of its young people and that is why education has become free in this country. However, it is also important that we look at the voiceless and the vulnerable in our society, and circumstantial children are in that category.

Madam Speaker, we need to remind ourselves as hon. Members of Parliament that one day, we may find ourselves at a place called prison or correctional facility, however we may want to call it. As law makers, it is important, therefore, that we speak to the issues that affect the voiceless and marginalised within our society because leadership is an opportunity to be a steward, an advocate and, indeed, a voice. In supporting and saluting your Committee, we continue asking the Government to extend the provision of education to children under circumstantial care in different facilities and prisons.

Madam Speaker, we are calling upon the donors to support the Government because taking care of circumstantial children is not an easy endeavour. Many women who have been incarcerated are shunned away by their families and the children in return are discriminated the same way their parents are sometimes discriminated. It is important, therefore, that other partners come on board to supplement the Government’s effort so that circumstantial children should never lack. None of us would ever want our children to be punished for sins they never committed.

Madam Speaker, in addition, I want to speak about the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime’s report, when it comes to circumstantial children. It calls for some less crimes to be considered so that the Government can pardon some of the mothers with children. I think it was in 2017 when female hon. Members of Parliament visited the mothers who had babies in correctional services here in Lusaka, and I do not want to drag you in the debate, Madam Speaker, but I think you were part of that team. We saw the plight of those mothers and we heard stories of how some of them, who were maids, stole a cell phone and were put in prison. I think in all fairness as a Christian nation, deuteronomic laws apply and we can look at the gravity of the issue and also expedite such issues so that not only the mothers, but also the children do not have to pay a bigger price and can become better citizens.

Madam Speaker, many points were raised by the Whip from the Opposition as well as Hon. Musanje from Mbabala and the report itself is in depth. We hope the Government will continue making strides in terms of pardoning the mothers and it should ensure that as it expands the infrastructure, there are better conditions for the children and the mothers. At the end of the day, circumstantial children are our future and we should not sit without doing what we need to do for them for such a time as this.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity to contribute to the Motion or to the report of your Committee.

Madam Speaker, firstly, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Mushanga, and the seconder in the manner in which they have ably moved the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the Motion we are discussing today is a very good Motion. For the past seven years I have been in this House now, this is the first time we are discussing such a Motion, which is very important, where we are looking at a child who is incarcerated together with the mother. For this reason, I thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing your Committee to do this wonderful job.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Musanje suggested that the Government or the courts maybe should try to pilot community-based sentences for mothers with children below the age of five. My appeal to the Government is that it should find a way of coming up with special correctional centres for the mothers with children away from the normal correctional centres which are established. I say this because when you go and visit the mothers and their children at correctional facilities, you can cry when you hear the language and tone of these children when they are speaking. A four-year-old child is able to notice an elderly man and it will call him bwana: just like that. Circumstantial children become rough and tough.

Madam Speaker, we are a generation that would not want to see our children grow and become stubborn, but we would want to see them become leaders who are going to perfect the future of this country. We all know that our children are the future of this nation. So, it is very important to note that our colleagues in Kenya, where your Committee went for benchmarking, have come up with facilities like Langata Correctional Facility where mothers and their children are kept. The reason we benchmark is to bring those ideas to this nation, so that we can develop them and make use of them. So, I implore the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to look at this matter critically.

Madam Speaker, with regard to education, well-wishers might have constructed classroom blocks in correctional facilities, but let us make this mandatory. If it means amending the law so that we provide for early childhood education in correctional centres, let it be so. It should not just end there. The teachers who should take care of circumstantial children need to be trained. They should just be specialised in early childhood education so that as they manage the children, they are able to teach and bring them to the level that society might appreciate them.

Madam Speaker, it is also very worrying to note that there are no vehicles, as it was mentioned in the report, to take the mothers and their children when they are sick to special hospitals. We are receiving instructions from the Executive to buy ambulances and vehicles for the police using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security should liaise with his colleague in the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, so that he can instruct hon. Members of Parliament to consider purchasing vehicles for prisons, especially those domiciled in areas where correctional facilities are. It is very important for each facility to have an ambulance or a vehicle to assist the mothers with circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the people of Chitambo, I end here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I rise to support the report of your Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters, which Committee this time dealt specifically with the matter of circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, most of my colleagues defined who a circumstantial child is, and explained what the current plight of our circumstantial children is. Indeed, it is a very sad state of affairs particularly for some of us who have been working with prisons in other capacities over a long period of time. As my colleague Hon. Kasune said, we visited these facilities, and we saw the conditions under which some of the children are living, which should not be the case. We all agree that prisons are not places to give birth to a child or, indeed, to raise a child.

Madam Speaker, however, the reality of the matter is that there are seventy-eight circumstantial children currently in our correctional facilities around the country. This silent group has been serving prison sentences with their mothers through no fault of theirs and this should not be the case. Indeed, the report highlights the fact that of course, the Government through various interventions recognises this and that is the reason we have various interventions. I commend those interventions such as passing the Children’s Code Act, which Act by the way, also deals with circumstantial children because they are children. The Act deals with the protection of all children and it is in their best interest. It ensures that circumstantial children, like any other children, enjoy their rights such as the right to life, the right to health and the right to education. Therefore, I see no reason we should be talking about amending this piece of legislation because it is adequate.

Madam Speaker, what we should be talking about is the fact that our correctional services suffer from principally three things. Firstly, we all know that citizens attach a low profile to prisons. These are places for some of our citizens who are condemned. Therefore, nobody wants to take interest in what goes on there. In the process, we forget about the silent angels who are suffering in there. However, we must remember that any one of us is a potential prisoner as my colleague has already said.

Madam Speaker, the second reason is that if we look carefully, we are in this kind of state because of the low profile attached to prisons. Nobody wants to talk about them or care about them. When you look at the funding of the correctional service in the Yellow Book, it is the least funded among the wings in the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, in spite of the noble task that it does. Currently, it is looking after well over 24,000 inmates on a daily basis, together with the children.

Madam Speaker, the third aspect is that the Prisons Act itself is very weak, when it comes to dealing with circumstantial children, because Section 56 only talks about an infant who goes into prison and it does not deal with several other aspects, which some hon. Members of Parliament here talked about such as the education and health of these children, and the provision of good nutrition, which my colleague talked about. All these parameters and the need for basic good infrastructure that can support a child to play, school facilities, foster homes, including what my hon. Colleagues learnt when they went to Kenya, which is a best practice, are not taken care of in our prisons law and all these require a lot of money. So, for me, the solution does not lie so much in all these things that we have talked about because prison authorities and the Government are aware about them.

Madam Speaker, we all know that we need to protect circumstantial children, provide schools for them and make sure they are in good health and move them away from overcrowding, which can lead to them catching communicable diseases. We know about all these things, but the problem is that we glossily and consistently underfund the correctional service. If anything, listen to what your Committee stated at page 11 and I quote:

“The Committee is greatly concerned that there is inadequate and at times no funding channel to institutions such as the Zambia Correctional Services and the Social Welfare Department. The Committee observes that apart from a few, most of the correctional facilities do not receive any funding to meet their specific needs of circumstantial children. These institutions are fundamental in the provision of services to circumstantial children.”

Madam Speaker, how then are we going to make sure that we provide education, good food, facilities and that the children in prisons have good playing facilities or, indeed, even take them away by way of foster homes, if there is no money? So, the answer lies in two things. Firstly, increased funding to the correctional service, particularly for circumstantial children and, secondly, amend or strengthen the Zambia Correctional Service Act, which currently is very weak in this regard. We can sing, jump on top of the mountain and talk all we can, and we can visit several countries and learn all the best practices, but as long as we forget what goes on in the prisons, and we do not give them a lot of money, day in and day out, we will continue to bemoan the plight of these innocent souls, our little angels who are going to make a difference to the future of this country.

Madam Speaker, lastly, I appeal to hon. Members to take time once in a while to visit some of the correctional facilities, particularly the women section, and to donate sanitary towels or pads. As you know, the sexual reproductive needs of our female folk in prisons, currently, are nothing to talk about.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I support your Committee and I commend it for bringing this subject to the fore and hope that our colleagues in the driving seat currently take heed and, indeed, do something in raising the profile of the correctional service and increase funding.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, my approach to the contribution on the report is that I will first highlight the main challenges that circumstantial children are facing in correctional facilities then I will compare them with what the law says about the rights of children. Thereafter, I will make a recommendation.

Madam Speaker, clearly, circumstantial children, according to the report, are those children who find themselves in prisons. They are either born there or their mothers are convicted to serve custodial sentences in prisons. Now, the question that as a nation we should be asking is: Have these children committed any offence or crime for them to be in confinement? The answer is no. These are very innocent children.

Madam Speaker, let me take this House back to last year. We enacted a Bill, which we called the Children’s Code Bill 2022, and this Bill was assented to by His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema. It is right now law. Among the things that I would like to highlight are the rights and responsibilities of a child in this Bill, and I will mention but a few. The right to survival and development, the right to expression, the prohibition of discrimination against a child, the right to name and nationality, the right to parental care, the right to education, the right to health care, the right to social protection and social services, protection from child labour, protection from armed conflict, child with disability, protection of child on the move, protection from maltreatment and other forms of exploitation, and protection from female genital mutilation and child marriages. The list goes on and on.

Madam Speaker, the question that we should be asking ourselves is: Are we not contravening this Act by keeping these children in prisons, particularly in confinement? I look forward to leadership from this House that will start challenging some of the laws that we are making. Are we making laws that we are implementing or enforcing? The report has indicated that we have adequate legal legislation, but the problem is implementation. Are we not violating the rights of these children? If yes, what is it that we should immediately act on to remedy the situation?

Madam Speaker, these children are supposed to have a right to development, and development is a process. Psychologically, when a child who was in confinement starts going to school, there is an infringement on the prohibition of discrimination. It is likely to face discrimination at the school it goes to. Will that child perform the way our children, as hon. Members, are performing? The answer is no. So, I am urging the Zambians out there who are listening to pay particular attention to such matters. By now, I believe the Government should have already been taken to court to ensure that it sets up reformatory facilities to address the needs of woman, particularly those who have circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, I will, therefore, end with a recommendation. Looking at the rights of these children, I urge the Government to immediately identify one correctional facility where it should provide education and accommodation facilities to ensure that their rights as espoused in the Children’s Code Bill are protected. Children should be able to assess their growth, and growth means they should be able to interact with their fellow children. We are social beings. When a child is born, its growth is dependent on the environment to which it is exposed to, its interaction with fellow children and parental protection, and this is stated in the Children’s Code Bill. Therefore, the Government should immediately identify a correctional facility where all mothers with circumstantial children should be confined, and at the same time provide all the rights that a child deserves without it being psychologically affected. We are talking about a Bill or a right that has been enshrined to ensure that the growth of a child is guaranteed.

Dr Musokotwane conversed with an hon. Member.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I urge the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, who I can see is busy chatting instead of listening, −

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, just continue. I am listening to your debate.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Now I can see he is paying attention.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I urge the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to immediately ensure that we identify one correctional facility where all mothers with circumstantial children can serve their sentences from, so that these children should be able to access all their rights as enshrined in the Children’s Code Bill.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House for listening and, indeed, I thank your Committee for coming up with such a wonderful report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha) (on behalf of the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu)): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to make a brief statement to this august House to the debate on the Motion to adopt the Report of your Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I thank the mover of this Motion, Hon. Mushanga, and the seconder, Hon. Miyutu, and, indeed, the entire Committee for the detailed and insightful report on issues pertaining to children and the youth. I have no doubt in my mind that the report has highlighted issues that once acted upon will contribute immensely to the betterment of the livelihoods of the children and the youths.

Madam Speaker, allow me to speak to the key issues raised in the report. The Government takes note of the issues raised pertaining to the plight of the seventy-eight circumstantial children in various correctional facilities. The report has ably highlighted the situation the said children are found in. We take note of the recommendation to ensure that funding to the correctional service is increased in order to cater for children who are found in a situation which is not desirable, and to ensure that such children are not deprived of their basic rights such as education.

Madam Speaker, the other issue raised is on Comprehensive Sexuality Education (CSE). Your Committee resolved to await a progress report on the review of the CSE course for out of school youth. In an effort to improve and promote the CSE course for the out of school youth, my ministry facilitated a trainer-of-trainers workshop with the objective of ensuring that the trainers familiarise themselves with the module for easy roll out of the course. I wish to confirm that the ministry has not reviewed the CSE course for out of school youths because of inadequate resources to facilitate the review of the course. However, I wish to reiterate that my ministry attaches great importance to improving the livelihood of young people in the country. Therefore, my ministry will prioritise the review of the CSE course for out of school youths in the 2024 Budget.

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, the Government attaches great importance to issues of youth development. In this regard, I wish to state that the ministry has made strides in the review process of the National Youth Development Council Act, Chapter 144 of the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, allow me to make mention that the ministry facilitated for a formalisation tour for your Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters to benchmark the National Youth Council of Kenya and Uganda. The purpose of the tour was to learn and appreciate the functions and operations of the National Youth Council of Kenya and Uganda to inform the reforms of the National Youth Development Council of Zambia Act. Some of the recommendations from the benchmarking exercise were as follow:

1. the National Youth Council should create structures from national level, through to village or ward level;
2. the councillors or board members of the National Youth Council should be elected and not appointed by the Minister to maintain a level of autonomy;
3. the youth structures should have representation of persons with disabilities and female representatives at all levels;
4. to invest in mindset change programmes starting from primary schools, to teach children on values and ideologies that will help them to be more productive adults in future.
5. to implement the idea of empowering youth enterprises according to the location and comparative advantage in terms of the industry in that area; and
6. consider harmonising laws and policies in relation to youth development and review certain laws that may be considered as progressive.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I urge this august House to adopt the report of your Committee on Youth, Sport and Child Matters.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is an indication for a point of order from the hon. Member for Mufulira. What is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, I got a bit confused when the hon. Minister was giving the response because the subject on the Floor of this House, as presented in the report, was on circumstantial children in prisons and correctional facilities. However, the hon. Minister was busy referring to the National Youth Council, a subject that is not under discussion this morning. I am basing my point of order on the relevance of debate, according to Standing Order No. 65 (b).

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you for that point of order.

This report is very detailed, although most of the debate that we heard today was on circumstantial children. However, if you read the report further, there is a portion which talks about what the hon. Minister was talking about. That is the portion under the tour. However, what I could have asked the hon. Minister to do was to respond to some of the issues that were brought out by the hon. Members who debated heavily on the circumstantial children. The hon. Minister was on course. Of course, he talked about the other part of the report, which is good. However, we need to hear what the Government’s stance is on the issues which were raised by the hon. Members, which I feel are very important.

Hon. Minister, do you have any response on what the hon. Members were talking about? I will use my discretion to allow you to say one or two words on what the hon. Members were talking about, on circumstantial children.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is it a point of order on this point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, you have ruled but the most competent hon. Minister who should have spoken on that –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Listen you, we are teaching you. Ala.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Whip!

Resume your seat. We hear you.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Unfortunately, I think I am to blame. I did not inform the House that the hon. Minister who was supposed to respond has been called at State House to attend to a very urgent matter. That is why he is not here with us to give the response. However, the hon. Minister for Water Development and Sanitation who got the handover notes from the hon. Minister was given the opportunity to act in that position.

Hon. Minister, is it possible to say one or two words on the issues that were raised by hon. Members, so that we can close the debate on the report?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank you and I value your guidance.

Madam Speaker, like I stated when I started responding, as the Government, we take note of the issues raised in the report, in particular the issue to do with the plight of the seventy-eight circumstantial children in the various correctional facilities. We also took note of the recommendation that we need to increase funding to correctional services. The Ministry of Community Development and Social Services will collaborate with the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security to see how these children can be assisted.

Madam Speaker, we have jotted down and taken note of the many proposals that have come through from the various hon. Members of Parliament and they will be forwarded to the relevant ministry, so that it can act on them in order to take care of the welfare of these children who are found in extremely unfortunate circumstances.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, we had eight contributors to the subject on the Floor of the House. I wish to take this opportunity to thank Hon. Kampyongo, the Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu, for his input to the report on the Floor of the House. I also thank Hon. Munsanje, who is the Chairperson of the Parliamentary Caucus on Children at the National Assembly of Zambia, for his input.

Madam Speaker, as stated by your Committee, many stakeholders who appeared before it submitted that the Children’s Code Bill No. 12 of 2022 is not very adequate when it comes to the subject that we are discussing on circumstantial children and that there is nowhere in the Act where circumstantial children have been mentioned.

Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Chanda Mutale, the Member of Parliament for Chitambo, for recommending that the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security, should put up correctional facilities for women. I also thank the Deputy Chief Whip, Hon. Kasune, for the recommendation she made on constructing more classroom blocks. I thank Hon. Dr Kalila, whose main emphasis was on increasing funding to correctional facilities for circumstantial children.

Madam Speaker, we hear Hon. Mung’andu on the main challenges that he focused on. I commend the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation for some of the issues that he has highlighted and he stated that the Government will respond to the main challenges circumstantial children are facing.

Madam Speaker, it is our sincere hope, as a Committee, that all the recommendations we have highlighted, and the recommendations from the other hon. Members of the House are taken into consideration by the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the sister ministries, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank you, the Clerk and the Committee Members for the job well done.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, with your permission, allow me to also congratulate Hon. Munashabantu, who is the Vice-Chairperson of our Committee, who is getting married to a bishop. I wish her well.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 5^th June, 2023.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I am sure that hon. Members have had the privilege of looking at your Committee’s full report. I shall, therefore, only dwell on a few issues.

Madam Speaker, your Committee received explanatory memoranda from Permanent Secretaries –

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can we please pay attention to the report. It is also a very important report. Let us allow the hon. Member to continue in silence.

Hon. Member for Chitambo, you may continue.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. Allow me to start again.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may do so.

Interruptions

Mr Mutale: You are not the Speaker. What is your trouble?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, your Committee received explanatory memoranda from Permanent Secretaries and the Chief Registrar of the Judiciary under whose portfolios the statutory instruments from the year 2022 were issued. Your Committee considered a total of fifty-nine statutory instruments.

Madam Speaker, after considering Statutory Instrument No. 29 of 2022, the Customs and Excise (Suspension) (Fuel) (No. 3) Regulations, which was issued pursuant to Section 89 of the Customs and Excise Act, Chapter 322 of the Laws of Zambia and whose objective was to amend the Customs and Excise (Suspension) (Fuel) (No. 2) Regulations, 2022, in order to increase the quantities of fuel on which duty was suspended for importation by oil marketing companies, your Committee expressed concern that despite this well-intended Statutory Instrument (SI), there was always an artificial shortage of fuel experienced whenever it was time to review the pump price by the Energy Regulation Board (ERB). While noting the SI as having been issued according to the enabling legislation, your Committee urges the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the ERB to conduct regular inspections to ensure that the SI was not subjected to possible abuse.

Madam Speaker, your Committee undertook its local tours of Lusaka Province, Central Province and Copperbelt Province so as to ascertain the implementation of specific statutory instruments. Of note and needing immediate Government intervention is SI No. 13 of 2022, the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment (Truck and Bus drivers) (Amendment) Order, 2022. The SI was issued pursuant to Section 106 of the Employment Code Act No. 3 of 2019, which empowers the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to prescribe minimum wages and conditions of employment for vulnerable groups of employees, where the hon. Minister considers that adequate provisions do not exist for the effective regulation of the minimum wages and conditions of employment.

Madam Speaker, while noting that the SI was done in conformity with the law, your Committee observes that the consultative meeting leading to the promulgation of the SI was not inclusive as it left out the employees and their representative associations. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government must be inclusive in its policy decision-making process and that a review of the impact or performance of the SI should be undertaken to ascertain the prevailing business conditions in the period where the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), which was the basis upon which the regulations were implemented has been continued.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I thank your Office and that of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered throughout the session. I also thank all the Government institutions that availed themselves during your Committee’s local tours, as well as those that provided written memoranda, which your Committee relied on.

With those remarks, I urge all hon. Members to support the report of your Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Nyambose: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you very much once again for giving me an opportunity to second the Motion ably moved by our able Chairperson, Hon. Remember Mutale. I would like to also extend special thanks to the Members of your Committee on Delegated Legislation.

Madam Speaker, as alluded to by the Chairperson, your Committee undertook local and international tours. On the local tours, among other institutions that we visited, we looked at the enforcement of the Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 36, which is the Customs and Excise (Points of Entry and Routes) (Amendment) Order of 2022.

Madam Speaker, particularly, we looked at the challenges that we are facing as a country. You are aware that we have an ambitious target of ensuring that this country produces 10 million tonnes of copper in ten years. One of the impediments to this target would be the congestions taking place in the border areas in our country.

Madam Speaker, we visited Sakanya Border and Kasumbalesa Border, among other places that that we visited. We were very pleased, as a Committee, to note that Sakanya Border is assisting this country to ensure that the traffic that is taking place on our famous Kasumbalesa Border is eased and is also adding value to the numbers that we want to achieve as a country. However, we noticed that there is a lack of infrastructure at Sakanya Border. It is our desire, as a Committee, and also an appeal to the hon. Minister responsible to ensure that we come up with modern infrastructure at our borders, especially at Sakanya because the facility does not have a parking bay. Besides, the office space is not anything to talk about. So, if we came up with a one-stop border post equally at Sakanya Border, we would achieve the targets that we are looking at as a nation. This is one of the observations that we made at Sakanya Border.

Madam Speaker, besides that, we saw the challenge of staffing levels. If I am not mistaken, we found about five officers at that border. However, if you look at the traffic that passes through Sakanya, you will note that there is heavy traffic using that route. Therefore, the ministry responsible and the Government at large should consider recruiting more staff. We were informed, as a Committee, that a maximum of fifteen officers would be ideal to ensure that we have smooth flow of traffic and expedite the clearing of traffic through that border.

Madam Speaker, we also visited Kasumbalesa. In this regard, I thank the Government for having bilateral meetings between our colleagues in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and our country. One good suggestion that the Government has come up with is to consider having a bypass so that the congestion at that border can be eased. That is a very good suggestion. As a Committee, we felt it would enhance the smooth movement of goods.

Madam Speaker, we are equally aware that even to clear most goods at the border, there is congestion because of delays and other challenges at the border, despite these goods being pre-cleared. The vices that are happening due to the fact that these people are not able to move quickly are affecting the country. So, it is an appeal from this Committee that we address those issues that are impeding the smooth movement of traffic. Besides, a one-stop border post is a must at Kasumbalesa Border because that is one major border post, looking at the traffic levels at that border.

Madam Speaker, your Committee equally undertook some visits on the Copperbelt to see the small-scale miners in Kitwe. In this regard, we looked at Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 46, which speaks to the suspension of customs duty on machinery and equipment for the mining sector, in order to promote investment in the sector. This is a well thought out SI and I commend the Government for that.

Madam Speaker, however, the challenge that we have found is that most of our small-scale miners were not fully aware or had little knowledge about this SI. This SI No. 46 is mostly benefitting the large-scale miners. For a country to develop, you need to also empower the small-scale industry and small-scale miners. If the small-scale industry is thriving, it at least helps to equalise productivity in order to enhance development for the country.

Madam Speaker, we, therefore, noted that most of the small-scale miners were not aware about this SI. So, this Committee is urging the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to engage various stakeholders. Every time we have good laws in place, we should be able to ensure that the people, whom these laws we make are meant to benefit, are sensitised and educated about them. So, we noticed that gap and it is an appeal that let us engage the small-scale miners.

Madam Speaker, furthermore, for us to meet those ambitious targets we have put in place, we equally need to ensure that we come up with incentives for small scale miners because they do not have the capital to buy the equipment that is offered through SI No. 46. We can come up with incentives like giving them capital, so that they are able also to import and buy the equipment. This way, they can also add to the productivity in the country. So, these were our findings on the local tours.

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Interruptions

Mr Nyambose: I have seen the time.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Your time is up.

Mr Nyambose: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for, again, giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the good people of Mbabala, to contribute to the adoption of the Report of your Committee on Delegated Legislation, ably moved by Hon. Remember Mutale, the Member of Parliament for Chitambo, and seconded by, Hon. Nyambose, from the good people in the east.

Madam Speaker, this report, just like the previous one, covers a whole lot of issues, which have been delegated to the various line ministries. I note one or two items which I will highlight, and one of them has to do with the tracking of the issues. I have noted that some of the issues raised in this report go as far back as 2016 and we only get partial reports here and there. I think that points to a lapse in our Standing Orders, where we need to ensure that within three to six months, we get feedback on the action points because when we wait for one year to get feedback and get feedback, we have to wait for another year to get the next feedback. Hence, we are ending up with such kind of issues not acted upon.

Madam Speaker, coming to the main matters that I wish to raise on page 40 of this report, they relate to tsetse fly control in Choma, Namwala and Livingstone districts, which was delegated to the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. I am glad that some of the issues raised have been acted on. So, I say well done to the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, in terms of budget allocation, the ministry plans to buy 322 motorbikes. I guess some of them are being bought. There is also mention of staffing. I am not sure if all the staffing is there because in my constituency, in places like Mutanga, Mangunza and Nalube, we do not have veterinary camp officers yet. I would like to see that these officers are part of the 470 officers who are supposed to be recruited by this line ministry. So, we want to see these actions taken. As I mentioned the other day, my constituency has been greatly hit by animal diseases and the death of our various livestock, especially cattle.

Madam Speaker, veterinary services and tsetse fly control in the area are crucial for us. This will help us to reduce on the death of our animals, especially if we have an adequate number of staffing in all our veterinary camps and if we have transport for our veterinary workers or extension officers in the constituency and all the surrounding districts. This issue is also still outstanding in this report. Since our hardworking hon. Minister who is smiling at me is here, we hope he will pay extra attention to this issue to ensure that veterinary services are provided to Mbabala Constituency where we are experiencing a huge carnage of animals.

Madam Speaker, the second issue I want to highlight is on the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) signage, which is also in the report. Last year, your Committee on Transport, Works and Supply talked about this issue and we need more signage in various parts of the roads. The ministry should also provide services for persons with disabilities on our highways. We have not seen that, but I have seen that that has been addressed in the report. So, I call upon the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics to ensure that services for persons with disabilities on our highways, cycling tracks and side roads are taken care of and implemented as asked for in this report.

Madam Speaker, finally, I want to talk about the Kasama Airport. I note that this issue is also in the report. Recently, I was privileged to be in Kasama and we found that the contract that had expired, as reported in the report, was renewed and re-entered. The New Dawn Government has so far released funding amounting to K39 million, and I congratulate it for working on that airport, which was not worked on in the previous regime. So, the New Dawn Government has done a good job and well done. I thank His Excellency the President and the team.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I see no indication of anyone to debate. I will ask the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House to respond.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, let me begin by commending your Committee on Delegated Legislation for the job well done during the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, the importance of delegated legislation cannot be overemphasised as it is a necessary tool to ensure an effective and efficient operation of our legal framework. Delegated legislation sets out the procedural matters which cannot be adequately covered in the principal laws.

Madam Speaker, as the Government, we are elated to note that during the period under review, your Committee considered a total of fifty-nine statutory instruments issued by various Government ministries and agencies, and was satisfied that the statutory instruments were issued in accordance with enabling legislation. No doubt, this is sufficient evidence that the Executive was and continues to be committed to operationalising to full extent, all laws enacted by this House.

Madam Speaker, I do note that although your Committee observed that most of the statutory instruments were made in conformity with the law, it did note concerns from various stakeholders on some of the statutory instruments in the period under review. The Executive takes note of the submissions made by the various stakeholders and the observations and recommendations by your Committee in the report.

Madam Speaker, I assure this august House that the Government will work with various stakeholders in considering to amend various pieces of legislation in line with the recommendations by your Committee. In particular, I have noted with keen interest your Committee’s observations and recommendations with regard to Statutory Instrument No. 5 of 2022, the Economic and Financial Crimes (Division of Court) Order, 2022, which falls under the Ministry of Justice. Your Committee’s observations and recommendations bring to the fore the need for the court to enhance disposing of matters before it.

 

Madam Speaker, may I equally hasten to mention once again that an action-taken report on your Committee’s observations and recommendations on the various subjects in the report will be subsequently tabled before this House.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Government, may I reiterate that the New Dawn Government is committed to executing the delegated authority bestowed on the Executive in conformity with the enabling provisions of the laws. This Administration is committed to good governance and observance of all the laws in the country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, in winding up debate, allow me to thank the two hon. Members who contributed to the debate on the report. I thank the seconder, Hon. Nyambose, for the able manner in which he seconded the Motion, and Hon. Munsanje for commenting on the report.

Madam Speaker, I also note the valuable contribution by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. Before I resume my seat, allow me to inform the Executive that we are looking forward to a very rich action-taken report on the matters that have been raised in the report.

Madam Speaker, with that said, I thank you, and I am again urging the House to support this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Finance and National Planning and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1219 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 13^th June, 2023.

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